ML20205A381
| ML20205A381 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 04/10/1979 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8504250497 | |
| Download: ML20205A381 (58) | |
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J NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
CLOSED COMMISSION MEETING INVEST,.IGATION ~
Place - Washington, D. C.
CC Date -
Tuesday, April 10, 1979 Pages 1
.55 (THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS PREPARED FBOM A TAPE RECORDING.)
Telephone:
(202)047 3700 s
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.
e OffinstReporters 1
444 North Capitol Street 8504250497 790410 hhington, D.C.20001 PDR 10CFR PT9.7 PDR NATIONWIDE COVERAGE. DALLY
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
On INVESTIGATION O
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CLOSED MEETING l
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- Tuesday, April 10, 1979 3:15 p.m.
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I, PROCEEDINGS 2
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Before the-two.of you came in.
3 [ at me ---
3 4 j; COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh?
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Len was confirming.
6' MR. BICKWIT:
We -- We have nothing to say.
7 8
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We want a last' meal.
9 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I notice you'have the directoe 11,
choosing the staff of their c,wn choosing.
12 L COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I noticed you put down 40.
13 0' Is that -- are you just erring on the side of caution here or P
14 l MR. BICKWIT:
40 what?
.i 15 ?!
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Staff of 40.
16 MR. SEGE:
The basis of the 40 people 'is.that we wantec, 17 y to_ pick a number that was somewhat on the high side of the 1
18 !!
reasonable range for this study. So.in fact, we would not 4
19 have to come back to the Commission to ask for additional 20 resources.
It was based on discussions with Bob Minogue and 21 Steve Hanauer whose judgment was influenced by the Browns 22 Ferry study -- investigation.
23 ;;
i MR. CUMMINGS: (Inaudible) 24 25 '
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How do you see staff being I
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Suppose he wants somebody from 2
NRR or wherever?
3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It says ---
4 MR. SEGE:
Well ---
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'm not sure why we don't 6
try to construct part of the staff as to how ---
7 MR. BICKWIT:
Why you don't suff it?
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
At least part of it, yes.
9 MR. BICKWIT:
Well, you can.
We ---
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I mean, is it up to him to l'1 find the people ---
12
'MR. BICKWIT:
Yes.
13 '
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-- and convince them to 14 join his team?
~
15 MR. BICKWIT:
That's the way it's structured, yes.
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Which makes a certain amount 17 of sense, at least, until the guy has agreed to take the 18 project on; that is, you wouldn't want to go to someone and 19,
say, you're going to be 100 percent independent, but here's
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90 percent of your staff. ready and waiting.
MR. STOIBER:
Some thought was given to giving him a 21,
22 sort kernel" staff of maybe five or six peocle.
Then he could i~
23 develop the additional staff himself. You have to give him
,24 enough working people to draw upon.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I keep -- Yes, I keep getting
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going to get off the ground.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
The fellow is going to spend 5 l weeks or months trying to recruit staff.
6' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I'm'not -- no.
I was 7 [ suggesting that ---
l 8 '
- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, they're NRC staff.
9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
It's a good. idea to have l
10 people in mind.
11 !
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
No, no.
They're not NRC 12 staff, are they, necessarily?
'OMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, not necessarily ---
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14j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: They could be.
15 f COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-- but I would expect I.
16llthey'dbemostlyNRCstaff.
17 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It says ---
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It doesn't say so, Vic.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
No, it doesn't.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You know, but there's no 20 reason why he shouldn't have the opportunity to hire some 21 outsiders, but I would* expect the bulk of the staff would be 22 NRC staff.
23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I think that's likely, but 24 [
I would not definitely detail into this project until the 25 guy.had agreed to it.
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'V COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
If you look at the bottom of 2
the page, Vic, of page 2, back -- way back under the 3
responsibilities of the director ---
l 4
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- you see, the first part 6
of the NF.; - 4 Whms the fact that.ha.woulcLhave full authority to 7
organize, select and hire his own staff, okay?
8 Now, ther MU.uru. sentence,.the cme that. starts:
" director 9
shall select and appoint a Deputy Director.
Director.may request 10 the Commission and other officers of the Nuclear Regulatory
~
11 Commission to assign such personnel and provide such other 12 assistanc'." That -- So, it seems to me he has au'thority to e
13 go out and hire anybody and everybody he wants up to whatever 14 this number is.
And I -- I'm just concerned it will never get 15 off the ground while he's out recruiting staff. You know --
16 which has certain advantages, but it also has sonie serious 17 disadvantages.
18 MR. SEGE:
We presume that the staff will come 19 largely from NRC and ---
2 0..
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Why?
21 MR. SEGE:
-- and from the National Labs where they 22 could be available much longer.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yeah, but why do you presume 24 that?
25 MR. SEGE:
I ---
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1 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Well, the guy may not wish 2..
to do that.
glI COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I mean, the way you've l
3 ll 4 'j written this, the level of independence is at the point that l
- it's really a blank slate that he starts from.
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l 6' f MR. BICKWIT:
That's right.
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7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Once the person is chosen, f
8 it's essentially up to that person to decide what'ever else l
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9 to do and with whom they do it.
t 10 MR. BICKWIT:
That's -- That's correct.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, you can limit the 12 li number of individuals that are hired from outside.
If you're
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talking aliout 40, you may just say you can hire up to 10.
14.'
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My -- My concern is that
.i 15 i at this stage, I -- I'm not sure I would have confidence 16 that a good, thorough study would be done.
17.:
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
If what?
I 18 'i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Without trying to make sure j
4 19 that there were really competent people on the staff and 20 that there was some confidence that, therefore, the work l
21 ! would be able to be done well.
I 22 COMMISSIONER'GILINSKY: Which leads you where?
l 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, it would -- it would 24,
lead me perhaps.to at least identifying some of the staff 25 that would be -- the person would have working -- the person would be working with ---
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l' MR. CUMMINGS:
In other words, John, you are 2
afraid that if you name him, he can do whatever he wants ---
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'm. afraid you could very --
4 you could ---
5 MR. CUMMINGS:
-- you will cioak him with independence 6
and then he could do whatever he wants to do.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, worse than that, my l
8 concern is that it would just spin -- spin wheels and never 9
get anything done.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, presumably you're l'1
. going to interview this guy -- I know you will.
~
12 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And you'll discuss a lot of i
14 this with him.
And you're not going to hire him if you 15 think that. he ' s going o f f ---
16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: But before we discuss those l
1 17 things with him, I guess we would all agree that we need i
18 to -- we need to know what it is we're going to discuss with f
him in that connection, because we can't -- certainly he 19 could not come on board laboring under any misapprehensions 20 that -- we would all have to agree on the general terms in 21 which he's going to proceed.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think that's right.
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
So -- So we need to 24
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discuss -- we need to sort of decide that before we -- before 25 we write a charter which ---
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1 lf COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh, yes, I mean, that's 2. what we're here for.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
let's him go, okay.
4 h COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I mean, the way I, at least a
5 i begin to skim this, there's really one direction that we it l
6' E really have.
We choose that person.'
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7 MR. BICKWIT:
That's right.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What requirement's does he 9
have to follow the scope of the inquiry?
10 MR. EILPERIN: Well, if he doesn't follow the 11 i scope, that would constitute a basis for ---
12 [
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I guess I'd like to see 13 l!
the Commission ---
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14 2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's 10 percent of NRR.
15 j; COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-- pick the Deputy Director i-16 ;
too.
17 ",
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: -- almost.
1 18 i
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yeah, well that --
i 19 (Simultaneous discussions between Commissioners 20 Kennedy and Ahearne.)
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And you may decide that 22 he can call on NRC staff, hire himself ---
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Except that it is n,ot 2 3,.
clear how much --
24 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-- some fraction of that 1
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l' number, maybe 25 percent or something from outside, up to 2
25 percent.
3 MR. BICKWIT:
You could have them selected with 4
your concurrence.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I gueiss I'd rather just 6
go along with that route.
7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yeah.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I mean, obviously, there has 9
got to be compatable grouping there.
10 MR. BICKWIT: It's an arbitary figure, You can select l'1 5, 6, whatever you like.
We pick one.
12
- (Inaudible simultaneous conversations.)
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Can we do anything we want?
14 MR. BICKWIT:
Sure, that's my point.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: They're really' thinking of '
15 16 a full time staff of 40 persons?
Is that what you had i
17 in mind?
MR. BICKWIT: Does that sound low to you?
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I think ---
19 COMISSIONER GMNSM:
I guess it sounded a M 20 high to me.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-- there's a distinct --
22 MR. BICKWIT: That's pretty low to me.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
-- But Len, there's a g
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I who normally investigates accidents, and right now, or for --
2 l takes transcripts.
Would you conclude that 3
those people.would or would not continue under the 4
direction of this particular group, and if the answer is i
i 5 i either way, explain,
t 6'l MR. BICKWIT:
It seems to Ise they have to -- they b
7 have to go on their own, i
8 !'
-COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
All right.
I 9 '.
Who has to go on their own?
10 /
MR. BICKWIT:
IEE has to go on their own.
I 11i COMMISSIONER AREARNE: So you see I&E doing their 12 is own investigation in. addition to this group.
I 13 l
' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
And NRR doing its own 14 '
investigation and Standards ---
15 MR. BICKWIT:
You've got, they've got enforcement duties 16 j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- which is already in e'
17 i' process, doing its own investigation, all of that independent 18 of any of this.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That doesn't make sense.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It begins to get a little 20 21 overwhelming ---
COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE:
Yeah, I -- I don't follow 22 that.
23 MR. SEGE:
They are required to furnish information.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I mean, this is the NRC's 25 I
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investigation.
2 MR. CUMMINGS:
I don't perceive it that way at all.
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3 MR. BICKWIT:
Which way -- you perceive them ---
4...
MR. CUMMINGS:
I perceive them being -- I didn't 5
count them in the 40.
6 MR. BICKWIT: Right, I didnt either.
7 MR. CUMMINGS:
Okay.
I counted them as a 8
resource, a resource that was available for the record.
9 I count it as 40 full time. I initially objected to 40 because 10 I thought you were counting them.
That's going to be a l'1 separate count.
12 MR. BICKWIT:
Those,we'd be looking at and so on.
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: These are 40 on top of 14 whatever else the agency staff is doing in the normal course
~
15 of its business, under the regulations.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But what I hear ten saying 17 is that,he sees this as an addition -- in addition to this 18 review, there would also be an I&E review ---
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes.
19, COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
-- and an NRR review --
20 COM!ISSIONER KENNEDY They're already doing their 21 review.
They are obliged to do so under the regulations in 22 the Manual Chapters.
23 MR. KENNEKE:
That's right.
Every office must ---
24 C
2s C MMISSI NER KENNEDY: They're already doing that, 000011
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I recognize they got 3
started, but it would appear -- I guess I'm surprised 4
that we would and up having four NRC reviews.
In fact, l
I'm appalled.
5 6'I 7
MR. KENNEKE:
Each office has got to examine the il 8 j influence-on his own duties as they see them.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No, no, but A1, there is g
10,, a difference between what is the result, but for example, you 11i are going to have four groups of people.from the NRC going 1.
h 12 out to find out what happened?
' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Interviewing?
13 ;
14 Four different sets of interviews for the plant 15 !
operators.
I COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Oh, that's ridiculous.
16 h 17 'l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yeah.
I mean, that just 18 can't happen.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The plant operators are
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20 likely to feel that too at some point, you know, it's going i
l 21 to -- the guy who comes second in the line is probably 22 going to get something. The next two of them who come along are probably going to get sort of short-shrift, I 23 would imagine.
i 24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: They may not have a lot of 25 i.
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.i 13 operating to do in the next few months, though which will help.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
No, but they will have a' lot of other work, presumably.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So, you know, I would 5
agree, Len, that as far as conclusions drawn, but from 0
analyzing what really happened and' going back through our 7
licensind; process, et cetera ---
8 MR. BICKWIT:
Oh, no.
9 I think you only need COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
10 one group of people to do that.
11 MR. BICKWIT:
I agree with that, but I&E ---
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But that's what the IEE --
13 part of what they are doing, and that's part of Standards 14 and part of the NRR people are doing.
15 MR. BICKWIT: All~right.
They have to continue to 16 do what's needed to enforce ---
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's break at 5:00.
18 MR. BICKWIT: - their. responsibilities. ---
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Huh?
20 Y COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think we ought to break at 21 5:00, or earlier.
22 MR. BICKWIT: -- and they may have to demand to 23 pull a license, shut a plant down, who knows.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think that's what the NRC's 25 responsibility -- their responsibility ---
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
4:30.
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COMMISSIONER GLINSKY: Well, why don't we agree 3
on something.
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That's a preconditioning---
5 '
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So that's why we need the 6'
best review of what has happened.
7 MR. KENNEKE:
Surely, this investigation will 8 h supersede-all of that and bring it all together. '
!i 9 ;!
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Not if it doesn't start 10fprettysoon.
11!!
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: When you say, ---
,1 12 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Somebody ---
t 13 )
' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Excuse me just a second.
,I 149 When you say, supersede, Al, do you mean that those other 15 I guys will stop?
E 16 j MR. KENNEKE:
Assuming that this is now taking i
17 up the responsibility-and drawing on ---
I i
f COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I don't think they are going 18 19 to unless they are told to, because they are operating 20 under, if I'm correct, either regulations or the Manual 21 Chapters, which govern their activities, and there are a l n rmal set of things that they are supposed to do and 22 investigate, and report on, whenever an incident or 23.1 24 accident or whatever occurs, given their area of respon-l O
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would have to be told not to do that.
And I guess, my 2
question is:
would that make sense to tell them not to do 3
that while this thing is being cranked up?
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARF:
That's certainly ---
5 Well, I think it would.
I think 6
it would make sense if this thing is cranking up to get --
7 to rehash the same grounds more thoroughly.
I would think so.
8 MR. BICKWIT:
I suspect there's an overlap.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, one of the instructions, 10 ought to minimize overlap.
l'1 (Simultaneous conversations.)
12
- CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Could somebody sketch for me 13 the proposals before the house?
I heard four investigations, 14 that's pretty good.
~
15 (Laughter) 16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Three of them are already 17 underway.
i 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If we could tune up one more, then each commissiorier could have his own.
19 (Laughter) 20 l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Which one do you want?
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Region IV.
22 (Laughter) 23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
We must do it by Regions?
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I can go over and ---
25 i
1 000015
9 16 1 il COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
You can make personal
[ check on Rancho Seco.
2 Il 3
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
--- review Bob Engelken's 4 !! role in all of this.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes. What are -- what is -- what 6 1 are the proposals?
Can anybody summarize the proposals 7
before the house?
i 8
- MR. SEGE:
Mr. Chairman, the relationship between 9
the different investigations is covered ---
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
First of all, tell me what 11 i
different investigations?
12 MR. SEGE:
Okay.
The investigations by the y
i 13 i office directors, by NRR, and by -- and the special 14 investigation that is being set up by the Commission..
15
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
16 MR. SEGE:
There is -- the next to the last 17 -
paragraph on the last page ---
i 18 lh CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Of what?
19 MR. SEGE: The paper that you have.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If there is anything that I 21 have a lot of, it's paper. So you'll have to -- which one 22 is this, George?
23 l
MR. SEGE:
And -- Attachment 3.
l 24 ;
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Which paper?
25 MR. SEGE:
Oh, the memo dated April 10th ---
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Ah!
V 2
MR. SEGE:
-- the proposed TMI investigation, and 3
it is the last attachment on the last page, the next to the 4
last paragraph.
And also, Attachment 3, which deals with the 5
subject ~ of resources.
6 Those two, between them, sketch out the proposal 7
as it stood and -- when we put this material together for 8
your information.
9 COMMISSIONER-KENNEDY :
But let me point out, 10 George, that it says, "... as a further part of the..."
which
. l'1 I think gets.to what Commissioner Ahearne is talking about --
12
".. as a further part of the resources that may be utilized, 13 the director will have available to him the results of on-14 going detailed investigations by NRC staff officers,"
and 15 the presumption is that, in fact, all of those s'taff offices, 16 three of them right now underway, I&E, NRR, and Standards, 17 will continue doing what they are doing in accordance with
~
18.
the Manual Chapters and their own -- their own procedures.
19 They'll go ahead and do that and this director may or may 20 not, I presume, utilize them as he sees fit. It does not 21 say he will.
He may*.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I would guess that that 22 would sort of guarantee that any other outside group like the 23 congress or the.. President, would have to then sit up and 24 do their own review, because we would then be tacitly saying 25 000017 i
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1 that we couldn't even coordinate our own review..
2 d MR. CUMMINGS: Then you could come up with two 3 f! sets of facts.
k 4 j COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Oh, more than that, I think.
t k
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I've seen some investigative 5
6, ] reports where I wish I had -- you know -- where I wish I i
7 had 4 or 5 sets of so-called facts so I could average a 8
little bit, but I had a feeling of total lack of ' confidence d
9 in the single set before me.
You know, there were times 10 when argument may illuminate, but -- Let's see, mind boggling.
f 11,
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Aren't we getting ahead 1
12.l of ourselves here.
I mean, we are talking about the n
13 i relationstiip of the office investigations to a central 14 :
investigation, but we don't know what sort of an investigation i
15 1 we are going to have to begin with.
Once we figure out what 16 we want to do with that, we can then sort out 17 the relationships among the various investigations.
I g
o 1 8 lt MR. CUMMINGS:
I thought we were eh6 ugh along in the ii 19 1ast meeting, to where you had indicated you were more in favor of 20 the director /deouty direc' tor concept rather than a broad concept--
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I was, yes.
22 MR'. CUMMINGS: -- and I. was trying.to pick up -- if that's i
23 J what you wanted to do, then I thought our task was to, try 4
24 to give you a charter and ---
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MR. CUMMINGS:
-- a method of setting that up.
2 MR. BICKWIT: You just want to look at this copy ---
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Right.
I just thought U
4 somebody could say something about this to the Chairman.
5 MR. SEGE: Well, ---
6 MR. CUMMINGS':Jisll, i~t's hard to defend something I --
l 7
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You disagree with.
- Well, 8
that's all right.
It's good practice.
9 MR. SEGE: Well, the scope as -- was restructured i
i 10 in response to the Commission comments yesterday, appears in l'1, and we tried to state several objectives and i
12 then divide the scope into fact-finding, time periods that 13 we covered, evaluation of findings, recommendations, of i
14 course, implementation.
Perhapo you would care to skip though 15 attachment 2 to the details that go under those headings.
i l
16 (Pause) 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIEt My mind is a blank slate.
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes, who was ---
MR. BICKWIT:
You, I'm afraid -- I'm afraid we 19 haven't told the Chairman the basic structure.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, that's what I was 21 22 hoping somebody would do.
MR. BICKWIT:
Yes, yes, okay.
We are talking about- -
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We've got to talk it around.
24 MR. BICKWIT:
I didn't realize what ---
25.
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1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Don't look at me, I'm,the 2 ; ignorant one.
3 !I MR. BICKWIT:
Well, the structure pure and I
4 simple is that -- that we have as an option in this paper is I
h l
5 Il that we -- the investigation is done by something on the 6 j order of a special prosecutor; a director
-- a one-man l
7 director is in charge of this investigation. He is removable N
8 only for tause, he selects his staff and ---
il l
9 j' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I would have us select l
l 10 a deputy director too.
1 MR. BICKWIT: That's right, that's right. I mean, d
12 you could select a deputy director, you could go right on 13 )
down to asi many as -- to as many of that staff as you wanted.
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l 14'!
But the idea is that you would not have'a board. You would l
15 have an institution headed by one person.
h COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I take it if they are 16[
17 y called co-director, you start getting in trouble?
l 18 MR. BICKWIT:
Yes, that's right.
I 19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Excuse me, I didn't hear 20 you Peter?
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I was wondering whether one 21 could have co-directort without running afoul with the 22
)
advisory committee act --
23 MR. RICKWIT:
And then that puts you in it.
We t
24 i
will keep you out of the advisory committee Act.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Which is ---
2 MR. BICKWIT:
-- you have one person heading this
. 3 thing, and you don't have a bunch of people with equal voices 4
making decisions.
That is the basic structure.
5 Now, George was going -- going through the scope 6
of what this-investigat: ion would be.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Len, could you explain tb:.
8 rationale o'f why you wou'd also have this individual then 9
reach conclusions and ma.ke recommendations?
10 MR. BICKWIT:
Yeah, the purpose of -- the purpose of not doing this within the NRC was to gain some additional l1 12 credibility.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yeah, but that was a 14 philosophy which I could understand when you were choosing 15 a group of very qualified people, and then you would have 16 some reason to believe that their conclusions and recommendations i
17 in this. broad sweep, that you would want it to give a lot of s
18 weight to.
It appears to me now you are structuring a very 19 efficient way to dig out all the facts.
That makes a lot of 20 sense.
21 MR. BICKWIT:
Uh-huh.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But then I'm having difficulty with that next transition, choosing that very efficient 23 mechanism to dig out facts and then transferring that to 24 conclusions and recommendations.
25 l
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MR. BICKWIT:
Well, to divorce this person from 2
recommendtions and conclusions would be as if you were to
- t 3
set up a special prosecutor and say, the special prosecutor's 4
job is only to come up with some facts, and then he's not 5 l supposed to make any decision about what the conclusions 6'
are and whether to prosecute.
i 7
MR. CRANE:
I think, if I could put in, I think 8
the idea was not that this would be the sole sour'ce of the 9
recommendations and conclusions, but that the' person whose I
r 10 primary responsibility is to do the finding of facts, should 11 not be precluded from passing on any judgments he may have 12.
based on his evaluat. ion.
j 13 l
' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, Peter, that's not1dat it I
14 '
says, because you've got four -- four objectives, and since three of them are thg evaluation and drawing conclus3.ons and 15 :
16 making recommendations, out of the four, I would say not only 17 are you not precluding him from doing this, you're requiring 18 -
that be.the dominant purpose of it.
19 MR. BICKWIT:
Well, that's okay.
I mean, that 20 l
really is our concept, okay.
He should make recommendations.
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I don't know that it needs 21 22 to be the dominant purpose.
I think probably special l
23 f prosecutor is an unfortunate choice of phrase for it, but I i
24 ;!
do think that..-- once we've put someone with a fairly high degree of competence and intellir7ence to make a full review 25 c
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23 l
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of this situation, we certainly ought to get him to write 2
down what his conclusions are, and that that should be part 3
of the project.
4 The concern about it before was that it had different l
3 1
implications with regard to the advisory committee act.
But 6
as long as it's an individual -- as long as he's going to have 7
gone through this process, I would like to get him to -- to 8
tell us as much as he could about each of the items.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'm not saying that -- that 10 I am concerned with his being precluded, I'm concerned with l1 that being the dominant focus.
~
12 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes ---
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
-- And I would -- which 14 then -- because if it -- if that's done in focus, then I ---
15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
If I had to choose, I 16 think I would agree with you.
I can draw my own' conclusions f
17 from the -- if he does a very good job of assembling the l
18 chronology and facts that are important.
But I can't sit 19 in a room and draw the chronology ---
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Oh ---
21 22 l
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sure.
24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: So, It's the first thing he's i
25 got to do, And the second one that I would like to have done..
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l il COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My overriding concern is 2
we are not going to get a really good review of -- of what i
3 transpired all the way going back to the licensing process.
4 That it's the ---
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes.
6~
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE~:
-- development of that, I 7
think, is absolutely critical.
8
- MR. BICKWIT:
Well, I think ---
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Suppose you had that, John, 10 and this dropping off that paragraph here, there is tile --there's 11,
hre several pages about precisely those kinds of things.
It 12 seemed to me pretty comprehensive and reasonably organized 13 list -of s'ubjact matter.
14 Now, once one gets through those, and he 15 stops and prepares all that.
Now, one of two things could l
16
. happen:
having gone thrcugh all of that, now you could say, 17 okay, now that you've done all that and you deliver all that 4
18 p to us, now we would like you to take another 30 days and l
19 i-tell us what you believe all that means, what its implications 1
20 l for you or to you, and what recommendations would flow from that.
l 21 i
Alternativelt, you could then get yourself into the ;
22i:
mode of the Federal Advisory Committee Act or not, depending 23 g
I on what you want, and set up -- set up another board -- or 24 a board at this point.
You've done the fact-finding, and 25 i
it I
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l' ' now you pass it to somebody.
I don't see any -- those are 2
the only two options that ---
l 3
COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
Yes, yes.
i I
4 i
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- at that juncture that I Either you have him do sometliing and give it to 5
can see.
4 6
us
-- Well, no, there are three.
He can just stop right 7
there, but I guess I would have to agree with Peter that a man 8
of the ---
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- of the stature we're l'1 talking about, when he goes through all this, he's going to 12 inevitab1'y reach some conclusion ---
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would agree that -- I would 14 certainly agree with that.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:--if you want to' hear it.
~
15 16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
On every single one ---
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You do want to have what --
18 what the conclusions and recommendations are.
My point was 19 that.the way this set seemed to be written, that was not 20 the primary ---
21 "
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, it's a matter of f
22.
emphasis ---
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
It's the emphasis, I 23 think, that the primary emphasis really has to be ---
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think that's right.
It 25 l L
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26 l;
d 1 lf would be surprising if we didn't want to know what his 2 [ opinion was ---
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Oh, sura.
No, we certainly l
4 do.
4 j
5 i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Certainly.
6' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
We certainly would.
But it's--
7 j
the primary emphasis has to be on digging in ---
i 8
- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, we can adjust it.
9 MR. BICKWIT:
I think the hardest question is the g
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10;lonethatyou'veraisedwhichiswhat'stherelationship i
11 l between this investigation and the on-going investigations?
l 12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You see, I had really ---
13
' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That would apply no matter l
14,
how we set up --
15 ?
MR. BICKWIT: I understand --- Yes.
16,.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I have been ---
?
17 MR. BICKWIT:
I think you're in agreement on 18 that.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I really assumed that there 20 was ---
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We haven't heard 22 Joe's view of that.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think I will get both legs 24 operated on in the hospital, and when I come back -- which 25 won't be for months -- I hope you have this all settled.
I I
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2 i 11-- the mind rattles.
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3 I don't think the NRR investigation people are 4
scratching around looking, you know, at what was --
5 l
what happened in Three Mile and so on.
I've got a notion 6
that the -- that the Commission investigation does not all 7 l that closely parallel that.
There would be certain elements 8
of it that are similar.
But I don't think all that closely --
i 9 I the I&E side, more so.
The I&E people are down now I
l 10 looking at charts and copies of ---
11 '
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Right.
Interviewing operators 3 The chart records, the interviews -l-12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
13 '
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Standards also is doing sanathing.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Standards is trying to look at i
15 '
their structure to see what is there in there that, you know, 16 ought to have been dealing with and didn't.
17 I guess I would see less problem downward from the 18 Commission investigation as you picture it here.
I think 19 it can integrate with whatever else is going on in NRR or I&E 20 or Standards in a
reasonable way, because it's more closely 21 under the control of the Commission.
1 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I don't think there's much j
23 control here, at all.
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Here, this -- this thing?
25 There's none.
000027
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, if the director -- if the
'l 2 h investigator calls up and says I&E doesn't want me to talk 3
to so and so --
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: There's certainly control'of-5 the NRC staff always available to us. But it's not obvious to 6
me that once this gets started that this is any different than 7
the Presidential Commission.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Ah.
You just arrived at my 9
difficulty, which is not downward ---
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Okay.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- but upward.
12 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
It's a good note to leave on.
l 13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If I don't return, I wish you all 14 a pleasant voyage wherever you may be going.
15 (Laughter) 16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: While he's out, Len, could 17 l
you explain to me what the difference is between this, as 18 far as how it's going to -- supposed to operate -- and, say, l
19 the Presidential Commission.
20 MR. BICKWIT:
I see it -- I see it as being -- as 21 being quite similar.
22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes.
I think we're sort of l
l 23 where we've been all along on that, that is, we hope that-l 24 they can be cooperative, but we've got to go -- we've got to b/
25 go do it in any case.
000028
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COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE:
Well, but -- you see, after i
2 I! having read through this, I -- I guess I'm now back to the
!lstagewondering--yousay,wehavetogothroughthis.
i; It's 3
i 4,
not going to replace the I&E investigation.
And it's not 5
going to replace the NRR studies.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: As far as I'm concerned, it --'
7 it -- replace may be the wrong word, but once this structure is 8
in place, maybe -- and there may even be something to be said I
9 j.for calling a halt to those aspects of the others that i
10
- involve, for example, interviewing the plant people.
But one lli way -- in any case, once this structure is in place, that 12 kind of work ought to be done at least in coordination with 13 l this operation and then possibly give way to it.
I 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes. I -- if this is going 15 to be the NRC's investigation, I believe it has to be -- the 16 only other pieces of that investigation of this accident 17 that go on in my mind, are those that either are very short 18 term or have to get done before this or else are outside 19 the scope.
But it -- I just kind of -- I'm having difficulty seeing how we could task this group and set this up and this 20 21 is going to be our real review and at the same time allow these 'other efforts to be churning around and covering the 22 23 same area. It almost seems to me that we ourselves would 24 be guilty of what we're hoping to avoid; that is, having 25 multiple reviews of the same issue, and thereby confusing the a
000029
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l data and making it harder to extract.
2 MR. CUMMINGS:
I thought you had all agreed that that 3
!wasyourpointofview, that this NRR and I&E effort was kind 4
of a stop-gap situation to make sure that facts were not 5
lost, that we had to do something in the interim until this 6
investigation got off the ground.
We didn't want the operator 7
to forget what he did, that kind of thing.
8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, that's ---
9 MR. CUMMINGS:
It's my impression ---
10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That's why I ---
11 MR. CUMMINGS: -- from several meetings ---
12 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes, that's why I haven't 13 thought -- why I said that I really think it ought to come 14 lIto a halt.
It is important clearly, to have recorded some-15 where people's fresh impressions.
I -- but maybe we ought 16 to have a conversation with John Davis and make sure that --
17 that this really is a data-gathering venture rather than ---
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, for example, I would 19 really hope these people would go back and carry ---
20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Reinterview them.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That's right.
22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Exactly, that's-- that's ---
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You would?
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes.
C) 25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes, yes.
0000.90
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COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE:
At least based upon a ---
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: One has to assume ---
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The interview tapes that 4
I saw.
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That senior leaders of 6
l organizations with missions are going to do -- a lessons learned 7
study.
They just ---
8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's what this is supppcsed 10 to do for us.
They're supposed to end up with being able to 11 tell us those lesson are.
12 '
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I understand all that, but 13 what I'.m saying is you're asking -- you're asking the senior 14 f leadership not to do the kind of thing which senior leadership i
15 is normally expected to do, and expects of itself.
You know, 16 I'll just kind of say that that's what you're going to face, 1
\\
17 and my guess is that unless they are directed not to do it, 18 they're going to continue doing it anNay.
19 And hopefully, it will be of some use to these 20 people, but they're not going -- they're not going to turn l
over to some -- some, you know body they don't know -- what 21 22 they believe to be and what is stated to be their own respon-l 23 siblity.
They're just not going to feel comfortable in doing l
24 that, and they won't do it, I'm confident; unless they are
'd 25 directed to do so.
If they are directed to do so, they may 000031
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32 O
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' well misunderstand the import of that.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well,-they ought to be 3
doing that.
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I know.
That's what.I said.
5 But we keep -- we keep -- we sort of keep coming back saying, 6
well, no, they ought not to, that this outfit's going to do 7
it for them.
8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: No, they'll have to draw the19 9
own conclusions ---
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And I ---
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
-- but isn' t -- a lot of the 12 spadework, I think, shouldn't be done twice.
We may be at a l
l 13 point where we can't get a lot further without having a 14 director or a group of possible directors in mind, and ---
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I ---
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
-- underway.
l 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
'I guess all can say is that j
18 I think this direction really is the NRC's Presidential 19 Review Commission look at it, and ---
20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes.
21 MR. CUMMINGS:
There's nothing to say, though, that 22 whoever you appoint as director of this task, the first l
l 23 thing he's going to do is look at the work that NRR did and 24 I&E did.
25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Oh, yes.
000032
i 33 1 I h
MR. CUMMINGS:
And he's going to make a judgment as 0' to whether that was a good effort, 2
a bad effort, whether he wants to reinterview, whether he doesn't want to reinterview.
4 He may look at it and say, this looks like a very competent 5
job; I'm going to accept it.
6 Number two, he's probably going to be using NRR 7
and I&E people 'as resources, as hands, and people to go out 8
and do this work for him.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
10 MR.CUMMINGS:
The difference is that -- that while 11 the NRR person can -- can give the results of his -- his 12 effort to his leader, he's really doing that task for the 13 director of this operation.
And if it comes down to a 14 show about what that fellow is going to do, his direction 15 is going to be from the director of the investigation.
16 So they're both going to get the benefits of the 17 work.
Some of it's going to be redone.
Some isn't.
And 18 it's going to be a judgment ca'11 by the director of the 19 investigation.
That's the way a special prosecutor, I'm sure, 20 looks at some work that has been done and thought that it had 21 been done in a sloppy manner, and in other cases, he might have left it and said, these guys asked the right questions and 22 they did a good job.
I'm going to accept it.
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes.
You know,when -- when we 24 think about the special prosecutor, it's a bit -- you know, 25 1
000033 3
.N 34
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what he is -- what he normally is dealing with is a different l
2 qbreedofcat.
What you have here is an on-going technical 3
operation, people who are day in and day out doing certain 4
kinds of work, and they're going -- they're going to have to 5
continue doing it.
They're going inherently as part of that 6
j b, they're going to go through a self-examination.
What did 7
we do wrong.
And they're just going to keep doing that.
But --.
8 you'know, you can't tell them not to.
g CO M SSIONER M :
Me 10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I think.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But wait ---
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
If you do, you're going to have a different problem on your hands.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My conclusions as to what 15 I&E did wrong, if they did something wrong, and what changes 16 they ought to make is not going to come based upon I&E's review, 17 It's got to come based upon this kind of analysis that this 18 group's going to do.
19 My conclusions, at least speaking for myself, as to 20 whether NRR in the licensing process works accurately is not 21 going to come from NRR's review; it's going to come from this 22 information.
So as far as to the extent that I&E and NRR act 23 on behalf of us and to the extent that I'm one of us, in that
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sense, then my conclusions as to their -- do you follow that?
25 My conclusions as to what they ought to be doing in 000034
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not going to be drawn from their own the future are s
2 l internal reviews; it's going to be drawn from this review.
3 j That's why I'm so concerned about having this be done.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, you might find their reviews interesting too.
I ---
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I would think so.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Anyway, their reviews are done 8
for them.
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's -- that's the thing ---
10 l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
It's not that they shouldn't I
11 !
be reviewing --
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: They should be doing that.
13 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My -- I guess part of it is 14 to make sure that there is a clear understanding that when the !
t 15 I&E team goes out and goes through all this process of 16 interviewing the operators, what happened, and when the NRR 17 team now starts reviewing the licensing process, they aren't 18 doing the Commission's reviews.
This group ---
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Not necessarily.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
-- is doing the Commission's 21 reviews.
COMMISSSIONER GILINSKY: But this group may take some 22 of their reviews.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sure.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
These guys would have the last 25 000035 i
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, they would hopefully have 2
the more thorough and broaded based -- it's -- for example, I 3
I guess that's one of the questions raised that there comes a 4
conflict of allocation of time for digging out the information..
5 This group has to have the priority over r&E or the NRR people 6
digging out that same information.
7
- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Suppose civil penalties are 8
involved at some point?
On the basis of which investigation 9
By whom?
And suppose the investigations 0[wuldtheybelevied?
l are not wholly consistent in some respect, which one would you use as the basis -- or whoever it is -- which one would he 12 j
use for the basis and how would he decide?
13 t COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would hope this is the most h
14.r l'
thorough review here.
15 i;
CI22'!ISCICER GILINSIT: Simply the~ stat of both.
- 16
. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Thus the decision would have 17 to,.in that case, rest with the Commission. The Commission 18 itself ---
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would guess ---
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It's like with the earthquake 21 problem.
22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Isn't that -- you know, that's 23 probably true. But if it is, that means that the Commission 3
itself would ultimately be the decision-maker on.the ---
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
On the TMI situation, if there i
i 000036 l
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are any penalties levied, I'm sure we ought to be doing it.
2 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That's true.
3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Okay.
4 !
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well ---
l 5
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Where does that leave us?
6' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It' leaves us waiting to hear
'l from the Chairman.
7 8
- COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Did you have any suggestions ii 9 il
'as -- for people?
10 (
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I've been s' ort of accumulatd.ng 11 legal names of one sort or another, but it matters a little 12'l bit whether we are thinking of having a lawyer as the director, 13 as deputy director or what.
I think there's a lot to be said
~
14 0 for having somebody with a -- some background in pulling big I
15 cases together in charge of a venture like this.
And I can't 16 say I've got someone -- one name that I can say would be it,-
17 but I can get a list of five or six within the next day.
18 MR. BICKWIT:
I know where -- where to go, but I haven't done -- haven't gone.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I -- I have a lot of suggest:.ons 20 but I.haveri't thought' about them all that much. To sort out in m3 21 own mind -- what I mean -- of course, it depends entirely on 22 what one -- what Peter raises, like, you know, who's going to 23 head the thing.
My own -- my own impression had been -- well,
24 25 i
I guess I assumed without thinking all that much about it tha t i!
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2 u
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I'd probably come out that 3
way.
4 (SLnultaneous conversations.)
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Where would you look for someone?
O COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I -- I haven't though.t about it.
9 You know, as I say -- I just instinctively thought in 10 that direction.
11 MR. BICKWIT:
Well, I'm essentially lost.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What exemption is that 13 under?
I 14 (Laughter)'
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I think that's the constitutior s.
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Privacy Act.
17 (Laughter) 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I'll tell you, I started ou 19 thinking that it ought to be a technical person because it's a 20 big technical problem.
In part, I guess I don't think it's 21 going to be all that hard to figure out what happened to the reactor, what did the reactor do and who pressed which button 22 23 and that sort of thing.
But figuring out, you know, the relationships of the various actors and the response, and 24 O
what happened before, what sort of exemptions wer'e granted, 25
-r w-k_,.
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1 fwhatwaslookedatthatwasrelevant,whatwasn't.
I think i
2 I technical people tend not to be sensitive to these (inaudible) 3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You're all asphyxiating in here.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I've noticed the symptoms.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Peggy's after you again, Joe.-
6 MR. KENNEKE:
You just what?
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me put it this way ---
3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Peggy's calling you, Joe.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I know, but I'm offering to go to 10 the highest bidder.
Now ---
11 (Laughter)
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- Peggy's standard price is a 12 13 quarter.
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Peggy ---
14 CHA N AN HENDRIE:_If you'll find 30 cents, I'll stay.
15 COMISSIONER GILINSE:
Is'nt'there something in the 16 Atomic Energy Act on that.
77 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That was sort of exhilarating.
8 (Laughter) g COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Fresh air that came in.
20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: 'Probably reporting to Harold.
(Laughter)
MR. CUMMINGS:
I hate -- hate to see a person take 23 on this job who has not had some experience.
24 IO COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes, I think that's fair.
25 000030
i 40 i
r l'
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Some experience in what?
2 MR. CUMMINGS:
No, seriously.
I mean, you can take 3
anybody in any discipline; he's going to walk into a little 4
meat chopper here.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But, Jim, experience in what, 6
is what I'm saying.
l 7
MR. CUMMINGS:
In running this kind of a major 8
inquiry.
I guess, you know, I would lean very heavily toward 9
a NASA type or someone who has gone through the pains of this 10 kind of a tough investigation, a real tough ---
l'1 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I agree ---
f 12 "MR. CUMMINGS:
-- it's got to push, push, push on itm 13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I agree with that, but I'm 14 not -- an awful lot of lawyers spend a fair part of their time involved in large and small investigations,' data 15 16 marsha111ngs.
l 17 MR. STOIBER:
- Well, as one who has done some --
l part of some of the big investigations. I used to 18 seen 19, be in the Justica Department, Kent State, Attica, 20 and others.
I don't think your typical lawyer who is maybe a good advocate or a good marshaller of facts in an individual 21 is the kind of person you want to bering to this kind case 22 of effort.
I think it's got to be a manager, somebody with 4
23 a lot of --
24 c ""'""' """ ""^"' " =
O 2s i
i 000040
e 41 m
(y 1
l H It isn't just the marshalling of facts. it's -- somebody's got
'~
2 to be capable of directing a group.
3 MR. STOIBER:
Yes, somebody who can lead a staff, 4
see to the staff needs, see the best people to put in that kind 5
of position.
6 MR. CUMMINGS:
That's why I say the lawyer is either 7
a counsel to or a vice-chairperson, if you're really going to,
i 8
keep that committee honest as far as its findings', they 9
are substantiated, that they're docdmented --
l 10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I thought a' technical guy j
i 11 would do that.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It is not --
I'm not 1--
13 suggesting for this operation, but a 14 15 That's the 16 a
17 kind of a guy you're talking about.
I'm not talking about 18 him, but this kind of a -- sort of a guy.
19 It was that concept, that sort of thought that I I
20 had in mind when I said technical guy.
I did not mean, you knor, 21 [
a research director or something, but rather a technical manager 22 sort of fellow.
It would not, I guess, be all that bad if l-he had some ' idea what the licensing process was all about; 23 24 l otherwise, it seems to be, he's either going to be buried
(-
\\
(_,)
under it or spend a lot of time trying to get on top of it.
25
, i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Mr. Moffett will look for the -
! )
b d
42 l'
Where'd Len go?
2 Oh, hello!
3 4
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Not very far, actually.
5 (Laughter) 6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why don' t you get ahold of some-7 body over there.
I told him probably tomorrow afternoon.
8 MR. BICKWIT:
(Inaudible) 9 10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
All right.
They need to have a 11 place to lock the things up.
So as long as they're going to 12 have copibs - Okay.
There was also -- so where do you think 13 we ought to go on this thing, or were we sort of at discontinund 14 discussions?
~~
15 COMM AHEARNE:
I think your voice is the last one to be heard.
16
' CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The one I -- I was about to holler about -- How does it -- how does it deal with the 17 President's Commission?
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Diplomatically.
19-CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
As I say, yes, with care.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, it says here something, 21 and I guess -- I need to have somebody exP ain to me.
It says on l
22 23 Page 2: "The director will have the further respon.sibility of coordinating and cooperating with the Presidentially mandated 24 investigation" I think " coordinating" is kind of the wrong 25 l
000042
1 9 word.
I don't think this operation will be coordinated with 2
anything except itself.
Now,'-- excus' me,it j
3j obviously has the obligation of sp= & ting it.
p 4
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Cooperating.
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
But if it's going to be an 6' 1 independent outfit and if the President's Commission is going 7
to be independent, coordinating between the two of them isn't 8
likely to leave that kind of an impression.
l 9
MR. SEGE:
Can we try to spell something out on 10 that one, page 6 of the scope section, item C.'
i 11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I would still hope that 12 there's a certain amount of coordination that would be possibl<t, 13 ; but it's pretty hard to talk ---
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
14 :
4 a
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
-- about that until there arit 15 :
16 People on the two Commissions.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You can't lay the respon-17 18 l sibility on it.
V COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes, it says here the director --
i 19 Let's see.
On 6-C it does what I assume is right.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
21 j il COMMISSIONER' KENNEDY:
Cooperation.
g COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Cocperation is -- it.
l 23 t
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
g
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~~
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Whatever ---
n 000043
e
,l 44 i
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l' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Whatever I
~
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, it has the unique 3
advantage of having usJget started.
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What has that advantage?
~
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
If we were to choose this.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Oh.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Will you tell me what it means to.
8
" lease or purchase real and personal property as an agent' 9
of and on behalf of the United States Government?
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
If he wants to rent a car, l'1 or rent a building, I guess that says he can do it.
~
12 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, it gets us started 13 except for the minor matter of finding a director.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So, you would pick this 15 too?
16 Although, I wouldn' t -- I join Vic in that I think 17 we ought to find a director and deputy director.
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Uh-huh.
19 Yes, I agree.
20 MR. BICKWIT :
I think it's a lot -- it's going to 21 be a lot easier than* finding a board, which was one of the --
22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes, I would consider --
23 MR. BICKWIT :
I think this is the best way to 24 get to that.
j COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I would consider this 25 l
i 000044 j
g-i 45 i
1 ( though a draft until the director was chosen, I think, 2
simply because it's something 'that he may have some thoughts 3
about.
It's certainly something that can be shown him, 4
this is what we' re thinking of, and if you don' t think it's --
5 :t MR. BICKWIT :
He may want to choose his own 1
6' :! deputy.
Might affect your --
7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, yes, within limits 8
it would --
9 MR. BICKWIT :
It depends on how much you want him.
10 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
Well, I can' t --
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I can' t imagine a 12 guy that we'd agree on to-head a Commission, would pass it up 13 on that point.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Had you thought about how 15 '
we would go about this next step?
Let's say we go this 16 route.
How to find a d'irector.
17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
We almost need to do some-18 thing artificial, like each come back with two people and go 19
- from there.
The more we sit around and talk about types il without names, it's -- the more time we burn up.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, we'd have to do that 21 and we'd have to mark Cp this piece of paper.
Presumably 22 that would go through some interactions and -- and even then 23 I think you want to keep it in draft, just as Peter says, 24 until you've talked to someone that you've pretty well 25 settled on.
r 000045 l
j
g 46 4
(o) l' COMMISSIONERAkEARNE:
Yes.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We're five minutes past 3
quitting time, Joe.
4 MR. BICKWIT :
What's your reaction?
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
What do you conceive as a staff?
6 MR. SEGE:
Well, the way.we wrote it up, Mr. Chairmaa, 7
is to allow a great deal of flexibility for the -- for the 8
director and we deliberately used rather general words in 9
attachment B to describe a staff of 40 full-timers with 10 additional input from either NRR and I&E, plus the ability 11 to get some work done under contract.
- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Do we have the authority 12 to hire in this situation 40 people or any, you know?
13 Is that -- do we have the authority to go out and 14 hire them, and if so, under what -- under what a'uthority?
15 MR. BICKWIT :
I wanted to get a personnel person 16 here, but --
17 MR. FITZGERALD:
I had a preliminary conversation 18 with Jim McDermott out in Personnel and he bounced the yg, thoughts off of, I guess, Mr. Bird, and they proposed two 20 possibilities for hiring.
One would be a professional g
term appointment for the director, in the first instance, and possibly some of these other 40 individuals.
Another possibility would be to go --
p COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Excuse me.
25 g
I
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000046
r-l a
47 b
1 MR. FITZGERALD:
-- by contract.
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Do those things have any --
i il 3
do those things, the professional term appointments, have any y effect on ceilings?
4 5 '{
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
They count on the ceilings.
s I
I 6' !!
MR. FITZGERALD:
They would count on ceilings.
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Well, if they count on the
[
i k
I l
3 ceiling,-do we have 40 blank spaces?
l 9
MR. FITZGERALD.
I don't know that.
i 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
This won't -- but this is 11 40 full-time people on the study, but for as many -- some if 12 h of them -- some number of them could very well be NRC people.
11 13 ;l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I'm thinking of outside --
14 E COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
A, it's --
'l 15 !
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I was thinking of the outsido I.
16' limit.
17..
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
A, it's not clear there will be 40, and B, I'd expect the overwhelming part of them 18 i
J to be NRC staff.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Well, we have to make that 20 clear that it says in this document now, which certainly 21 l
gives me the impression that this man may go out and hire 22 1
40 people.
23 ll 1
24 (
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I wonder, can we make them r,
full-time consultants?
Is that a possibility?
25 t
I L
000047 W
48 l' '.
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
They'll come under your 2
temporary employee ceiling, and you're bumping that all the 3
time anyway.
j i
4 MR. FITZGERALD:
There could be problems with l
5 having consultants supervising NRC employees.
I think that 6
was one of the problems that Personnel was throwing up to me.
l 7
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well --
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Well, to get to the -- I 8
9 interrupted.
You said the contract; now, what kind of an 10 operation would that be?
{1 MR. FITZGERALD:
That was not expanded upon.
That --
- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Wouldn' t that have the same 12 kind of problem, a contract employee directing full-time -
13 NRC employees?
14 MR. FITZGERALD:
Yes.
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes, so that's another 16 problem.
[
17 MR. FITZGERALD:
We wouldn' t have slot problems.
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes.
9, COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
Under what -- what arrangement 20 ;!
l did you propose to hire the two senior people?
21 MR. FITZGERALD:
That's still open.
I mean, they're thinking about it and checking the manual.
These were the 7,
3 alternatives that kind of -- just off the cuff.
24 1
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That's a kind of a serious O
2" quaistion.
You can' t get very far with this exerci,se 000048 a
)
l 1
49 l
~
)
1 Y without getting that one answered.
2 MR. BICKWIT :
We've'got to make more thorough a
3 i; contact with -- with the personne.~. people.
n 4 j COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Because I can see a number 5 j of these people being inside our staff or perhaps transferred 6' ]
in from NASA or something like that.
We could handle those,
'i 7
but these key people, how would you propose to bring them 8
on?
It's something we'll have to get answered pretty e
9 quickly.
10 MR. BICKWIT :
Well, what -- what was McDermott's idea?
That you -- that you just mentioned?
11,
12,
MR. FITZGERALD:
Professional term appointment.
13 ;
'MR. BICKWIT :
Yes.
14 !
MR. FITZGERALD:
That's a -- where you bring the 15 :;
person on.
He has -- he has the independence of being a --
to the extent of being a civil servant and having grievance 16 and all that sort of adverse action --
17
?,
18 [
(Laughter) t e
MR. FITZGERALD:
I think I've read it.
He only 19 comes on for a specified period, renewable for another 20 specified period.
21 MR. BICKWIT :- We've just got to -- we'll give 22 j y u a mem n this.
We'll ask Personnel.,
23
'tl' COMMI.SSIONER KENNEDY:
Another question:
The 24 :
lesser people, how would they stand vis-a-vis the unions?
25 '
i I
Somebody ought to ask that question.
i 000048 i
g.
50 l'
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
All we need is grievance s 2
from this investigation.
(Laughter) 3 4
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Or the -- the union steward 5
saying, oh, by the way --
6 (Laughter) 7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I think I can do more good 8
on the phone, at the moment.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I don' t knov -- I recommend 10 that we quit because my brain has mushed out.
And let's see 11 what else I need you for.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Nell, that means we're 13 going to go to the and of the week, I think.
14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
But there are a series of
~
15 questions that should be pursued.
We've raised a whole lot of them vis-a-vis this proposition which can be worked on; 16 people can be flashing out, you know, the answers to them.
17 COMMISSIONER'GILINSKY:
A lot of those would come 18 up no matter how we ~ structured it then --
19-COESSIMR EMW:
Mat's exacQ righ and 20 they can be --
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
They've got to get answered.
g COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- pursuing those and mean-23 while we can certainly take this thing and you' re right, you kn w.
All f us, this is the first time we saw it.
We O
25 000050
f, 51 n
1 f certainly would want to take a loo'k at words and go through 2
it because again a lot of this would apply, no matter what 3 ::
structure one would use,.right?
A good deal of it.
And so 4 ]
it won' t be altogether lost time.
9 5
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And what we also might do 6'
I as Peter suggested -- try to --
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
W3 can begin to think of 8
some names.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Think up some names.
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Sure.
11,
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I mean, no matter what --
12 again, no matter what the structure, we still --
13 '
' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, you're talking about 14,
different sorts of people.
15 -
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I -- that's right.
That's 16 correct.
Not necessarily, but.possibly.
I think some might 17 fit in either context.
Some just wouldn' t -- either S
h w uldn' t find themselves very comfortable in a sort of 18 19 a board context or might be comfortable in this context.
MR. BICKWIT :
Why do you say this has to wait 20 until the end of the week?
21 COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE:
The five of us won' t be 22 23 l back together again until then.
24 lq MR. BICKWIT:
Why is that?
CO M SSIONER N :
Two of us will be away on 25 Wednesday and two on Thursday.
l l'
i I
L -
y.
f 52 l'
MR. BICKWIT :
Oh. That suggests another question 2
3 and I can see I'm not getting anywhere.
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Depending what time we 5
left Thursday --
6 CHMN HENDRIE:
Would somebody please go by Dan Donoghue 7
with this.
I want to know what all it means to delegate t
8 authority under Section 161, you know, (f), (g), and so on.
l l
9 Does this mean that the director 10 now without further recourse to any Commission l'1 authority whatsoever can go out and rent himself a block of 12 offices ih the building?
That would surprise me.
I can't 13 do that.
Does it mean he can order himself in a set of 14 antique furniture and no word from the agency about shape up.tnd I
~
15 observe G.I issue?' DoesIit mean- -- what sort of records does 16 it mean he keeps?
Is he going to have to hire a set of f
17 bookkeepers who are government trained accountants --
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Somebody will have to 18 19 Provide him that service -- he's going to have to account for all this.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
-- so that the records of his 21 expenditures meets government : standards?
22 You know, who's going to service this guy in the 23 l'
sense of administrative functions like this?
You know, do 24 Y u Propose to give him carte blanche and go out and have a 25 000052
.~-~r
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c-
.~.
19
?.
~
i.'
53
~
~
I good time on the government, and you know, I'd be interested 2
to know Dan's opinion as to whether that's legal, moral, un-3 [' fattening, or otherwise character depressing.
.i 4
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I think that and the t
5
- personnel questions have got to be answered.
6' }
CHAIRMAN-HENDRIE:
And how do the ceiling things --
7 40 people for six months in addition to -- in addition to 8
the efforts which will go on with the individual offices?
9 It could be.
Maybe we -- maybe that's the sort of scope 10 of effort which is needed.
It seems like a lot, since it 11 ! sounds to me like this is being pitched to run sort of above 12 j; and independently of the rest or NRC.
13 6!
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
We just don' t know how b
14 many of those 40 half man years have to come from people 15 j outside NRC yet.
16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
No, but right now the way 17 this is written --
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
They all could.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- the outside limit is 20 i
all 40 of them.
21 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That's right.
f Because it's entirely up COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
22 23 to the guy.
i.
Il 24 r CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And furthermore you don't ii 25 propose to have anything to say about it.
1.
F I
L 000053 l
r
,o i
54 l'
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That's right.
We will --
2 office directors are directed to provide whatever he may wish 3
in this. context, which may be beyond the-40, by the way, if 4
I read this correctly.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, I'd'be interested in 6
some of these questions.
I' d like a chance, actually, to 7
read all the way through the document once.
I haven't 8
had that chance since it arrived.
I guess none of the rest 9
of you have either, since it arrived at the table after 10 this meeting had in fact started.
It seems to me premature to take, you know --
l1 stamp it okay and go at this point in the discussion.
12 We have got a couple -- I think, can I have a 13 short notice meeting to discuss a couple of letters.
14
~
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Aye.
15 MR. BICKWIT:
What's the subject?
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, one of them is a letter 17 to the Department of Energy saying --
18 MR. BICKWIT :
Letters from you to them?
yg, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, one of them is from me g
and the other one I.think is from Lee, wasn't it actually --
21 Gossick to Secretary of Energy.
Peter had some problems with these.
23 j
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes, I haven't got them f
24 i
with me, hue I can certainly state my problems.
O 23 I
1 000054 v
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p-s, 55 i
J
~
1 l[
CUAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Those' are actually --- it seems 2
to me --
ii 3 [
MR. BICKWIT:
Are you going close it, close it on
)1 9-B grounds?
4 i
5 i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I'll tell you what, let me first 6'
of all see if I can ask you to join me in voting to hold 7
one.
8
- (Chorus of ayes) 9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
So ordered.
10 (Whereupon, at 5 : 20 p.m., the meeting was 11,
adj ourned).
12 a
13 14 :
15
16 l
17,
U 18 l' 19 20 1
21,;
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L 000055 I
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--.,-...u-.--...
, i' fc d
The attached transcripts and.those which have been released previously have been prepared directly from tape recordings of meetings of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission during the course of the recent accident atithe Three Mile Island nuclear facility..That accident and related matters were discussed.
The emergency nature of the situation at Three Mile Island led the Commission to meet frequently with little advance notice to its staff and often in locations other_than where its meetings are normally held'.~ As'is~the -
-=-
~
~
_ case with all closid1CommissiorC. meetings _ (except wholly l
_.y..
~ ~ -ladfud'icatory:sEs;sidns l~ thecmeetini;s.Jwers_ rec 6rdFd',~. and 7 -.-
~
^^2..
. ~ ~,
~ 7 *----
~
t
-1:ranscripts have-been-prepared -in. acc.ordance with the Govern-c-
ment in the Sunshine Act.
In accordance with Cocmission practice, the transcripts have been,~and will continue to be, r'eleased to the public as promptly as practicable.
. s
- )
The conditions under which the meetings were recorded made 6
the keepd.ng of complete and high quality recordings impos-
~
sible and, as a result, it has beer; a difficult task to In accordance with normal Commission prepare transcripts.
policy, moreover, the transcripts have not been edited for possible\\ inaccuracies in the discussion.,Accordingly, it should be understood that these transcripts are incomplete, may centain errors, and do not represent formal or official Commission statements on the matters discussed therein.
O 9
q l'n
u 2
These meetings were closed for one or more of the following x-to protect the rights of, individuals or corpora-reasons:
l tions who are discussed in connection with the possible imposition of sanctions (Subsection (c)(5) of the Sunshine Act), to protect the rights of an individual not to have his
~
privacy invaded in an unwarranted fashion (Subsection (c)
(6)), to allow the Commission to discuss possible actions that would be significantly frustrated'if prematurely dis-cussed in public.'(Subsection (c) (9)
(B)'), and to permit the
_._l
..._ Commission ;to discuss -in-private the possible-initiation of adjudicatory proceedings (Subsection'(c) (10)).
o.
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.