ML20205A275
| ML20205A275 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 01/02/1980 |
| From: | Harold Denton Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8504250467 | |
| Download: ML20205A275 (37) | |
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION r
IN THE MATTER OF-O PRESS BRIEFING LESSONS LEARNED FROM THREE MILE ISLAND ACCIDENT
(
s Place - Washington, D. C.
Date Wednesday, 2 January 1980 Pages 1 - 36 l
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(CcJs 202) 547-6T4!
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ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS, LNC.
Official Reporters hDk kDDhK h0 415 Second Street, N.E.
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 5
6 PRESS BRIEFING 7
with 8
DR. HAROLD R. DENTON Director, Division of Site Safety and Environmental 9
Analysis, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation 10 on 11 LESSONS LEARNED FROM THREE MILE ISLAND ACCIDENT 12 13 i
14 15 16 17 18 1717 H Street, N. W.
Washington, D.
C.
19 Wednesday, 2 January 1980 20 21 22 23 24
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'l PR0CEEDINGS 2
MR. FOUCHARD Everybody got the handout, I 3
a ss ume.
I think Mr. Denton has some opening remarks to tell 4
you how we got this place in that time, and then he'd be 5
happy to take your questions.
6 In addition, those of you who may want breakdowns 7
of individual plants which are in the lists, my good 8
friend, Thomas Telford, cver here, promises that he has them 9
with respect to what utilities need to do what.
So, we'll 10 try to take care of those cuestions a little later on.
-11 But let's get started now with Harold Denton.
12 MR. DENTO:l I can tell it's a slow newsday by the 13 number of people who showed up today.
14 What we're doing today is announcing and signing 15 the orders which I brie fed the Commission on about 30 days 16 ago.
These orders go back to the recommendations of our 17 Lessons Learned Task Force.
Immediately af ter the Three 13 Mile Island accident we set up an internal task force to 19 identif y those changes which should be made promptly in 20 those plants which are in operation.
That task force has 21 comple ted its ef fort and published this report, N UREG-05 78.
22 They've identified about 24 items of changes.
These changes 23 include design changes, staffing changes, emergency response 24 changes.
25 We took that recommendation of the Lessons Learned l
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.'l Task Force, sent copies out to all operating utilities, had 2
regional meetings to which we invited all utilities to 3
attend, followed up with several letters f rom 4
Darryl Eisenhut and a letter from me on October 30, spelling 5
out in detail what was to be required.
6 We had two types of items in the book.
Category A
-7 items. were those which were to be done by January 1, 1979.
8 And Category B items, which.will take a bit longer.
We'll 9
be talking about the end of 1980.
'10 It took a lot of effort, working with each utility 11 to go through the applicability of these Lessons Learned to 12 the individual plants.
A number of plants did make 13 commitments to make all the Category A changes )y the end of 14 the year.
In fact, I think when I brie fed the Commission, 15 the utilities and the staff were in agreement on 98 percent 16 of the total package and in agreement-on 90 percent of the 17 schedules for implementing those items.
IS But a number of utilities either did not want to 19 make the changes that we had asked for or did not want to do 20 it on the schedule that we'd asked for.
So, in order to 21 provide them a more formal opportunity to give us their 22 views and also to be sure that we had these changes made as 23 soon as practicable, I am today signing orders for all those 24 plants which have not met the Lessons Learned Category A 25 January I deadline.
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dhat I have decided to do, cecause a number of 2
plants were shutting down in January for ref ueling and other 3
causes, is to grant a one-month extension of the date for 4
those plants who had planned to shut down.
So, for a number 5
of plants I have moved the date from January 1, 1979, to the 6
end of January 1980.
In other words, a 30-day extension.
I 7
will tell you in a moment how many plants there are in that 3
category.
9 I will also discuss the impact of any shutdowns 10 required as a result of these changes with the people in the il Department of Energy.
de have today dr. Weiner and perhaps 12 others from the ERA part of the DOE.
They provided us their 13 views on the impact of these shutdowns, if necessary, on the 14 reliability of the grids in those areas.
They expressed 15 concern about three areas in the U.S.
They were concerned 16 aoout reliability of the grids in Floridas about the grid 17 that includes Oconeet and about the Northwest grid, which 18 would include San Onofre.
19 So, I have in my orders made a special provision 20 for those plants to allow them an opportunity to justify 21 why, on the basis of power reliability, they may need an 22 extension beyond the date that we would have otherwise 23 g iven.
So, with that, we are issuing today either orders or 24 letters to 68 plants.
There are two plants for which I ai nt issuing orders; they are for T!AI Units I and 2, cecause 25 o
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2 couldn't make them anyway and I will be handling in the 2
course of the ongoing licensing procedures that's in place.
3 So, with that short introduction, I will t3ke 4
questions.
5 VOICE:
Some people might wonder why a one-month 6
extensions why not, since there was fair warning, order 7
shutdowns for those who have not complied as of Janu3ry 17 8
MR. DEllTotis I tried to look at it on the first of 9
December and asked myself whether we should go ahead and 10 insist on a January I shutdown or allow some extension.
And 11-there was one plant viewed like three days into January for 12.
refueling outages, other plants seven days, and anotner one 13 two weekst then there were plants who had planned to shut 14 down in February.
So, about half the plants were sca ttered 15 on out all the way through June with their pre ferred 16 schedules.
17 Since there had been some confusion back and forth 18 as to the exact nature of the change we required, I felt 19 like giving a one-month extension was not unwarranted.
All 20 of these plants have had in-place compensatory measures, 21 such as extra operators, during the time since Three Mile 22 Island.
23 VOICE:
How many plants have complied with your 24 requirements by the January I deadline?
25 MR. DENTON:
Let me find that sheet.
There were
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.'l 30' plan'ts which did comply with the January I shutdoan.
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2 They're either shut down now or shut down on the 31st of 3
December and are making the change before they start up 4
again.
So, there were 30 plants which will not operate in 5
the new year without having these changes made.
6 VOICE:
Excuse me.
You're talking there aoout two 7
ke:ds of things either a plant that was going to snut down 8
anyways or a plant that's going to remain open and make the 9
changes that you required.
Is that correct?
10 MR. DENTON:
I have a list of the plants -- naybe 11 I could give it to you later -- that will clarify.
Take 12 Zion, now, for example.
It shut down early in Decencer, 13 made the changes, and are now back in operation.
The y're 14 operating today but they made the changes sometime in 15 December.
x 16 VOICE:
That is among the 30 plants?
17 MR. DENTON:
That's among the 30 plants.
IS Now, Beaver Valle y is shut down now for some 19 reason other than just this order, and they will make the 20 change before they resume operation.
21 So, there's one plant, I think, that is shutting 22 down now, Big Rock Point, just for the purpose of making 23 these changes.
24 VOICE:
vlhich one?
25 MR. DENI0il Big Rock Point shut down before the
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,'l new year began in order to make these changes.
2 So, there are 30 plants which, for one reason or 3
another, were able to meet the January I deadline.
4 VOICE:
Did you say there are about 24 points they 5
had to cover?
6 MR. DENTod Yes.
There are 14 plants which had 7
planned to shut down sometime in January anyway.
A normal S
refueling outage or special shutdown for inspection.
So, 9
those plants are getting confirmatory orders which confirm 10 their intent to shut do'vn in January and not resume 11 operation unless they made all these changes.
12 VOICE:
How many plants would you expect to be 13 operating on February 1 or capable of operating on February 14 1,
in compliance with your requirements, and how many will 15 not?
16 MR. DENrod By the time February I rolls around 17
-- let me go through the next category and then I will cone 13 back and answer that.
19 There are some changes which won't be made 20 nece ssarily on the end of January because of equipment 21 unavailability, which would create a run on certain types of 22 equipnent -- and some utilities didn't get -- weren't able 23 to get it on the same schedule as others.
Some of the 24 bigger utilities, such as Common 4ealth Edison, could procure 25 the equipment from plants under construction and so f orth.
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Other u'tilities are having problems getting the equipment.
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So, for a couple of items which were 3
eq uipment-re la ted, the order asked that that be installed 4
within 30 days af ter the receipt of the equipment, and it 5
also asked that the licensee document the best efforts to 6
obtain the equipment.
So, we're only talking about a small 7
fraction of the items which were extended beyond Februaryl 8
they were equipment-related.
9 Then, for these plants that have power-reliability
-10 issue -- Oconee 2 and 3, aconee 1, St. Lucie -- we are 11 providing them an opportunity to plead taeir case with 12 regard to the grid stability in their region and not grant 13 an extension there beyond the end of January, if warranted.
14 So, in those plants, one or two are in the question there 15 that has been developed by ERA.
16 VOICE:
Do you have an idea of how much, on the 17 average, each plant will have to spend to come up to what 18 your requirements call for?
19 MR. DENTO.1 Let me answer that right after I try 20 to answer yours.
21 VOICE:
How many plants will meet your-deadline?
22 How many won't meet your deadline?
How many will be able?
23 MR. DENTods Well, they all have to meet the 24 order.
25 VOICE:
But meet the deadline of January 31, how
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l many will have to shut down, I guess, is the question?
How 2
many do you expect?
3 MR. DENT 03:
Of the 30 which we fully expect to 4-m eet the end-of-the-year deadline, the re is only one that is 5
now down just for this purpose.
Now, for those in January, 6
there will be two which will have to make unplanned 7-shutdowns for this purpose.
8 VOICE:
By the end of January?
9
'4R. DE NTON :
Sy the end of January, there. vill be 10 14 more plants in compliance, two of which are shutting down 11 just for this purpose.
That's Arkansas Unit I and Peach 12 Bottom Unit 2 are shutting down in January just for this 13 purpose.
Otherwise, they would have preferred to do it 14-later on.
15 Then there are 19 plants which will have to do 16 everything for which they have the equipment by the end of 17 January.
But these are cases where there might be one piece 18 of equipment out of the 24 items that they don't have by the 19 end of the month, and there the order says "Do everything 20 that can be done by tbn end of January, and do in 30-days 21 any items which are equipnent-dependent."
So, there is 22 going to be essential compliance by the end of January 23 unless it's, one, equipment-related, for a few plantst or, 24 two, unless the special power reliability problems give us 25 reason to provide an extension.
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I VOICE:
That's only in Florida, South Carolina, 2
and the Northwest?
3 MR. DENfod Yes.
The Northwest one is a rather 4
unique case.
Apparently, the power shortage is actually up 5
in the Northwest, but the plant being affected is San 5
Onof re, and a lot of the southern California power is being 7
shipped north.
8 VOICE:
But there will be three plants, then, 9
shutting down solely because of your orders one to meet the 10 January I de adline, and two during January to meet the 11 extended one-month deadline?
12 MR. DENTON:
And there may have been plants during 13 December which went ahead and shut down Just for this 14 purpose, but I don't have that breakdown.
15 VOICE:
Are you saying, in e ff ect, that you are 16 giving a January 31 deadline with the possible exception of 17 five plants?
18 MR. DENTON:
And a f ew pieces of equipment.
19 VOICE:
Or shut down.
20 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
I would rather state it 21 positively, that what I want to have in place, implemented 22 in all these plants, are these lessons that we've learned 23 from Three Mile as soon as practical.
24 VOICE:
What are some of the more important 25 changes you're insisting on that you say are necessary to I
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-MR. DENTON:
Nell,'let's take one that involves L
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personnel.- One of the changes is that they must have on ech 4
shif t a technical adviser.
This is someone with an 5
engineering degree aho's in the plant at all times, able to 6
advise the operators in the event that conditions get beyond 7
tho e planned for.
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Another one that's very important is an emergency 9
response support center.
Th!s is a provision inside the 10 plant where they have data displayed where they have 11 meterorology equipment, where they have ability to measure 12 the anounts of radiation being released, do emergency 13 planning, and much better provisions to prevent a real 14 emergency, and to advise us in the state.
15 As you probably already know, we've alread/ sent 16 action letters out to all the plants that-define what 17 conditions in the plant warrant types of response.
18 Another change is positive indications on 19 pressurizer relief valves.
As you may recall, in the Three 20 Mile Island accident, there was a question of what did the 21 green light mean and what did the red light mean.
What we-22 have now on all valves is a positive mechanical switch that 23 indicates valve position for relief valves such as f ailed at 24 Thr ee ~ '411e.
25 VOICE:
Wnat are the principal problems causing a
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the delay in the deadlines, since most plants have failed to 2
meet it?
3 MR. DENTON:
The ones that deal with procedures and 4
personnel can be done without a shutdown.
I think the one 5
that's causing the most trouble is containment isolation.
You 6
may recall, at Three Mile some of the water was pumped out 7
early on in the accident over to the auxiliary building, 8
What we're requiring is that containment isolation signals be 9
rewired so that once containment isolation signals are received, 10 it's not automatically reset when that condition corrects, so 11 that each individual piece of equipment has to be evaluated by 12 the operator before he would open up an isolation valve.
And 13 that's involving, I heard in one case, 11,000 feet 14 of wiring for the one utility.
15 The other principal problem is putting on these mechal 16 nical limits, which is on the relief valves and safety valves.
17 And you have to buy e quipment which meets all the qualifica-18 tions for radiation.
19 VOICE:
How much, on the average, does category A 20 cost for each plant?
21 MR. DENTON:
I asked staff that earlier.
It's not 22 very much, because it's mainly administrative and procedural.
23 I guess the shift technical adviser, five shifts, S50,000 a 24 person per shift, would be $300,000.
The equipment itself,
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I haven't heard any real firm estimates
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2 VOICE:
How much does it cost for each reactor to 3
shut down, on the average?
4 MR. DENTON:
If it shuts down, it depends on where
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5 they get the replacement power from, whether it's burning 6
coal or oil.
But I think we use an estimate of the order of 7
a quarter of a million dollars a day.
But the decisions that 8
we made today were not made on the basis of the price of power, 9
but'really, in the five plants that we have provided an 10 opportunity for an extension beyond the end of January, it II was based on grid reliability.
12 VOICE:
Are you confident that these changes will 13 prevent ancther Three Mile Island?
Id MR. DENTON:
I'm confident they'll prevent another 15
-accident like Three Mile Island.
We focused on the Three 16 Mile Island syndrome.
They involve auxiliary feedwater flow, II small break loss of coolant, response of a plant.
But these 18 are not a complete package of changes at all.
These are very narrowly focused to assure that the accident such as Three 20 Mile cannot happen again.
2I But I wouldn't want to pretend at all that this is 22 all the. changes.
In fact, we have a Long-Term Lessons Learned
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23 report and an Action Plan that's in preparation now, that makes r
24 i-far more sweeping changes in the way plants are designed and c omeoww naoo,ws, inc.
25 operated.
This is focused on the accident that happened and
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our initial response to preventing that type of accident.
2 VOICE:
When will these other changes be implemented?
3 Do you have any kind of a target date for the final package?
4 MR. DENTON:
As you may know, we have a two-inch-thick 5
Action Plan before the Commission now that has all the 6
recommendations of the Kemeny Commission and all the recommen-7 dations from our advisory committees and any other source, 8
and projected dates for when they would be applied to operating 9
plants and plants under construction and plants undergoing 10 licensing.
The final dates have not been set.
11 The Commission is also awaiting the outcome of the 12 Rogovin inquiry.
13 VOICE:
How long would a plant have to shut down 14 just to implement these changes?
15 MR. DENTON:
I guess we've heard estimates from 16 three days to three weeks.
If you ask me, I'd say eight to 17 ten days is a good estimate for a typical plant.
but it 18 depends only how close the individual plant is to complying 19 with these now.
Some plants already have positive valve 20 indications, for example.
Some plants, our most recent plants, 21 have very good containment isolation signals.
The old plants 22 don't.
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VOICE:
With these changes, do you feel comfortable 2
about avoiding another accident of the type of Three Mile 3
Island?
4 MR. DENTON:
I feel comfortable about avoiding 5
another accident of the type of Three Mile Island.
But 6
Three Mile Island, you know, was just one class of accidents.
t 7
It involved a small break loss of coolant accident resulting 8
from a stuck-open relief valve.
And these changes are 9
. intended to address that problem.
10 They also help some other types of accidents, such 11 as the shift technical advisers, who could assist in any 12 type of accident, The emergency response center should make 13 it easier to provide recommendations to Government for any 14 type of accident.
15 But we have a whole panoply of recommendations that 16 would be forthcoming to take a broader view of the actions.
17 VOICE:
Mr. Denton, suppose all this goes as you 18 hope, and on the 1st of February or shortly thereafter the 19 plants are all in compliance or can be in compliance, unless 20 you know there's a part missing.
Can we expect then an 21 announcement saying:
Well, the next deadline is January 1st, 22 1981, and all our safety changes have been made that can be 23 made, and therefore we will commence with licensing of 24 nuclear plants?
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25 MR. DENTON:
That's a decision to be made by the l
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MR. DENTON:
That's a decision to be made by the i
2 Commission, andI think it will be made in connection with 3
this Action Plan, once they approve an Action Plan that will 4
lay out the future course of licensing and changes and the 5
like in existing plants.
And the Commission meets, I think 6
is scheduled to meet again, several times in January on the 7
Action Plan.
8 VOICE:
Under category three, you say there are 9
21 facilities that either will have to have all of the changes 10 completed by January 31st or be able to show why they haven't.
11 Does that mean that you're going to allow another extension?
12 MR. DENTON:
Only for equipment.
13 VOICE:
But these orders were originally given to 14 the companies back in September.
If they still haven't gotten 15 the equipment by January'31st, wouldn't it be reasonable to 16 assume that they're dragging their feet and expecting to get 17 more delays and more extensions?
18 MR. DENTON:
I was concerned about that and I had 19 the staff call the manufacturers of this equipment to establish 20 that there really is a shortage of certain types of equipment.
21 I don't take at face value the assertion that they can't 22 obtain it.
But we have checked and in those cases to date 23 we satisfied ourselves that the main factory has sold every 24 piece that he had on the shelf and is busy making more.
And mee.ra n. con.n. inc.
25 so it's not a question of dollars or being slow.
It's just the l
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sheer unavailability of some of these pieces of equipment 2
that no one anticipated a market for.
3 VOICE:
So if they come to you on January 31st and 4
say, I still haven't gotten the equipment I need?
5 MR. DENTON:
They'll have to make that case and 6
we'll call around to make sure that every effort is being 7
made to get it.
8 VOICE:
Thank you.
9 VOICE:
Under category three plants, are you saying 10 that they're going to shut down in January to do everything 11 they can do except for the one piece of equipment that they 12 don't have, and then shut down again in February when they 13 get it or whenever, 'in March, April, May, and then put it in?
14 MR. DENTON:
Let me ask how that order is written.
15 I think that's right.
16 VOICE:
So they'll have actually two?
17 MR. DENTON:
All the equipment that you've got in 18 January, you will shut down and install.
If there is one 19 piece missing, you'll have to shuc down again within 30 days 20 after.
21 VOICE:
Is there some kind of staggering, so that 22 you don't have, let's say, ten o f these 21 plants down all 23 at the same time, or depend on individuals?
24 MR. DENTON:
That's why I asked ERA's opinion on
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25 what the impact would be, and it's on the basis of their I
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advice.
They identified these few sensitive areas in the U.S.
2 VOICE:
So even if all of.the 21 chould be down at 3
the same time, which they probably won' t be, but that wouldn' t 4
be as serious except in those three areas?
5 VOICE:
Let me ask Mr. Wiener to respond to that, 6
since I really can't discuss the impacts first-hand.
7 MR. FOUCHARD:
Would you identify yourself.
8 MR. WIENER:
I'm Richard Wiener, Director of 9
Power Supply Reliability at the Department of Energy.
10 We've targeted three areas that have preliminary 11 indications of concern for reliability or other system 12 requirements.
We'll be asking each of these three systems 13 to respond to a very detailed questionnaire quickly to confirm 14 or help us confirm this reliability consideration.
They are 15 in the Virginia-Carolina area, which contains the Oconee and 16 Surry units; the Florida region is the second; the California 17 region, Mr. Denton has indicated, is a unique situation, where 18 the San Onofre unit is supplying energy as part of the western 19 supply area.
That supply is necessary to offset an energy 20 shortfall in Oregon.
Oregon has been suffering from an energy 21 shortfall due to weather conditions and the shortage of the 22 Trojan nuclear unit for some time.
The Trojan unit has just 23 come on line.
We are monitoring that situation daily.
24 You'll recall the President did sign an emergency ir vederal Reporters, Inc.
25 energy declaration last week for Oregon to allow a waiver of I
19 mt2 5 I
certain environmental regulations, so that we could support --
2 we may o r may not have this problem as the next few weeks 3
evolve.
4 MR. DENTON:
I want you to mention that that waiver 5
didn't concern nuclear.
6 MR. WIENER:
The environmental waiver dealt with 7
Western Turbine that w as gas-fired, that belonged to 8
Portland General Electric Company, also the major owner of the 9
Trojan unit.
It had to do with their exceeding their environ-10 mental requirements as far as air quality.
11 VOICE:
If I understand it, category three includes 12 21 plants.
But you're saying that the Oconee plant really 13 belongs in that category.
14 MR. DENTON:
On the basis of the advice from ERA 15 today, I moved them down into the category four area, like 16 Crystal River and St. Lucie, which means that they will be 17 provided the opportunity to show good cause on the basis of 18 Power reliability.
19 VOICE:
Just to clarify, the five you're talking 20 about are San Onofre, Crystal River, St. Lucie, and Oconee 2 and l
21 3?
22 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
23 VOICE:
Nail down the math on this.
You said 24 30 plants during January will either be operating meeting moderd Reporters, Inc.
25 your requirements or shut down for some other reason.
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MR. DENTON:
Yes.
2 VOICE:
Does that mean, then, that the number of 3
plants given a reprieve by your one-month extension are 28 4
plants?
28 plants will have one more month to do something 5
which they should have done on January l?
6 MR. DENTON:
It would be 38 plants.
In other words, 7
there's 70 plants licensed to operate, roughly, in the U.S.,
8 two of which, TMI-l and 2, I said, are not covered here 9
because they're being handled in another manner.
So 30 plants 10 are fully meeting the January 1 deadline and are not operating.
11 That leaves 38 somewhere else.
i 12 VOICE:
They are the ones that are actually affected 13 and given a reprieve?
l-14 MR. DENTON:
Right, they're given a one-month 15 extension, plus I am giving a 30-day extension for equipment
~
16 unavailability, which affects a few items.
And then there are 17 five plants of that 38 that I'm offering an opportunity to i
18 show why our power system demands a slight additional exten-l 19 sion.
20 The orders also say that, regardless of the reason, 21 they must be in full compliance by June 1st, just to be sure i
22 that there's no equipment supply problem and it just drags on s.
23 and on, our power reliability problem drags on and on..So in 24 l
no case does the order permit operation for any reason beyond
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25 June 1st.
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VOICE:
What's the~esbential reason for the delay?
2 Dif ficulty in getting equipment?. i Or. a::e any utilities reluctant;.
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4 MR. DENTON:
As I indicated,>I think we had 90 Qe
'rcent -- if you take all the items and multiply them'Jby h.e e
.. umber of plants, which is the way I go't to my statistics,_
7 originally there were about 2 percent of the items that 8
someone wanted to argue over.
They didn't think they needed wl
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10 For example, one utility did not want the capability; t
11 to measure accident releases on-site.',He wanted to be able A
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12 to rely on off-site measurements.
That's what'we'd gone througt X
a 13 at Three Mile Island and I thin': it's. completely unsatisfactorh,"
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16 So I think we're now down to zero arg&ments on the 17 substance of the requirements.
Bud then there were people,p 18 who did want to argue schedules:
Why don' t you let me go,'my
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19 normal refueling outage in April, May, or what have you? '
p 20 And I said:
I'm not smart enough to. decide month by A5 nth, 3-R 21 one-month extensions for etterybody who didn' t make-it, plus g
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25 VOICE:
I have a question for Mr. Wiener.
Why is l
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~
1 it;that Florida plants were pnable?
What was the problem 2
with the energy reliability?
z-h 3
MR. WIENER:
Florida is a capacity situation.
If L
k 4
these units were'all taken out at the same time, there won't 7
i 5
be suffi?ient capacity in Florida to prevent a blackout type 1
'6 of outage.
Florida has been suffering several of that type F
7 of an outage in $he past six or seven months.
I'm currently h
8 having a reliabjlity investigation done in Florida, because 9
of thd multiple occurrences that have happened.
There have 10 been somethirig like 12 in 6 months of actually systems going 11
' black from.thi kind of shortage.
There are very weak ties p,:
' ?1, j
J 12 from Florida to Alabama and Georgia.
The rest of Florida is
'13 surrot>nded by water, so that a multipleigutage like this, the y
>F.s.,
f' 14 simu{ta'neous outage of these units, will enuse a problem.
\\
l 15 We're not saying that none of these units should be 16 taken out in this period of time.
We're saying that they 17 should not be tiaken out simultarieously, such that we can 18 achieve sc.ne sort of margin to protect against the situation 19 Florida is in because of that.
._20 VOICE:
What's the reliance on nuclear power in y
23 Florida; do you have any idea?
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22 MR. WIENER:
There's four units in Florida.
[
23 VOICE:
Do you have any idea what percentage of
(
24 energy in the state comes from nuclear power?
e., swei suonen. inc.
25 MR. WIENER:
No.
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23 mE3 9 '
x 1
.MR._DENTON:
Let me project for you what I think's 2
going to happen in Florida.
One plant is down forJrefueling 3
'and doesn't expect to start up again until the end of January.
4 If they do start up around the end of January, one of these, 5
say St. Lucie or Crystal River plants, will shut down at that 6
same time for a period of two weeks to make these changes.
7 And the next one will shut down for the next two weeks in 8
-February.
Then the fourth plant is shutting down for refueling 9
anyway, of course, in' March.
-10 So it's pretty tight and everything has to go right 11 between the start-up of this first plant, the next two plants 12 fit in in February, and then the planned shutdown of the 13 fourth one, to avoid having more than one plant down, for this 14 reason.
I think it can be done, and we'll be watching it'on 15 a day to day basis as we get into February and try to prevent 16 a requirement that one plant shut down one day before the 17 next one starts up in operation.
18 VOICE:
So if everything ; works out-correctly --
19 MR. DENTON:
There won't be but one plant down at 20 a time.
r 21 VOICE:
And they should all be completed by March 1st?
22 MR. DENTON:
Yes, or down.
The fourth one would be 23 shut down.
.24 I guess I might highlight one other thing here.
e.eers nepo,i.e., Inc.
25 You will notice that our highest population density sites i
24 atl 10' I
fall.into the early categories.
Zion may change at the 2
end of December.
I think Indian Point 3 will make the changes.
3 Indian Point 2 will have made all the changes during the 4
shutdown beginning,on January 15th.
5 VOICE:
Why do the 21 facilities in category three 6
have to adequately demonstrate that they'll be able on 7
January 31st?
8 MR. DENTON:
That's only for those items that are 9
equipment-related.
10 VOICE:
When do they have to prove this or demon-11
- strate it to your satisfaction, since, when you say you can't 12 go beyond it.
13 MR. DENTON:
Let me ask for legal advice.
What 14 would you say?
Anybody remember?
15 MR. LIEBERMAN:
It doesn't provide a specific time, 16 since the order is effective upon issuance.
They need to get 17 that information in as soon as possible, so that we can make 18 a determination prior to January 31st.
19 MR. DENTON:
There are only two items, I think, out 20 of the list of 24, that are equipment-related and there are
- 21 some problems with.
Maybe it's three:
containment isolation 22 equipment, valve position indicators, and the subcooling 23 indicator.
The subcooling is an e ngineering term for being 24 sure you have the pressure high enough so the water doesn't r.rederal Reporters, Inc.
25
-boil.
We've had it in effect in all plants since I
25
~mt3 11 1
Three Mile Island,. required that the pressure be maintained 2
considerably above that required to suppress boil-off, 3
VOICE:
Two of those things essentially are instru-4 ments for control room operators.
The third one, the contain--
5 ment isolation --
6 MR. DENTON:
That's rewiring to be sure that the
.7 containment isolation valves don't automatically reopen when 8
the signal disappears.
9 MR. EISENHUT:
Tne valve position is also quite often 10 a piece of equipment in the plant.
11 VOICE:
When you sent out your October letters, did 12 you tell them that they would have to have these changes made 13 by January 1st or else shut down?
14 MR. DENTON:
I didn't order that.
That's when I said:
15 If you don't expect to meet January 1st, please let me have a 16 valid reason in the next.two weeks.
That's when I received 17 a plethora of everyone asking for exceptions and explaining 18 their special problems and so forth.
So in trying to cut 19 through it, that's how I came to a decision that one month 20 wasn't an unreasonable extension for that group.
21 VOICE:
In that letter, you didn' t mention that 22 they would have to shut down, or did you mention that?
23 MR. DENTON:
I didn't mention shut down,. because I 24 can only say that in an order.
That's not done in a letter.
l
- ePetteral Reporters, Inc.
25 But overall, I was pleased with the response, In other i
26 mta.12-I words, a lot o'f the bigger utilities really did take the lead 2
in showing a responsible posture.
Southern California Edison, 3
Commonwealth Edison, called back to indicate that they were 4
' going to comply.
5 It tended to be some of the smaller utilities who 6
had special problems, who wanted special dispensations.
7 VOICE:
Do you still have utilities that aren't 8
committed -- your commitment problems?
9 MR. DENTON:
Let me ask how they shaped up.
I guess 10 af ter our last Commission meeting, the Commission indicated 11 concurrence with orders.
I don't know if there are any 12 hold-outs lef t.
13 MR. TELFORD:
Not a one.
14 MR. DENTON:
This order does provide an opportunity 15 for hearings if they wish to contest it.
16 VOICE:
Not to make you go through the numbers 17 again, but I find with your press release they all add up to 18
-the 68.
Where does the five come in again?
You have 30, 14, 19 21, and 3, which comes out to 68.
You were mentioning five 20 more plants.
21 MR. DENTON:
Let me ask someone.
22 MR. EISENHUT:
Very simply, the press announcement 23 in category three had 21 plants.
Two of those plants are the 24 Oconee 2 and 3 plants.
So one way to look at it is changing
= resed neponen, Inc.
25 21 to 19, and take the Oconee 2 and 3 and move those out as i
27 mta 13 j
I two separate plants that go with the plants in item 4 and 2
item 5.
3 VOICE:
Two of those are what?
4 MR. EISENHUT:
Oconee 2 and 3, Crystal River 3, 5
St. Lucie, and San Onofre 1.
Those are the f1ve plants.
6 VOICE:
What's the difference between four and 7
five?
Just that that one is --
8 MR. EISENHUT:
One's in California and one's in 9
the West Coast.
That's the only real basis.
10 VOICE:
There's a difference in deadline?
11 MR. EISENHUT:
There's a difference in deadline, 12 owing to the fact that those multiple units are of concern 13 in the state of Florida.
14 VOICE:
So you're giving them --
15 MR. SISENHUT:
15 days to stagger the plants.
16 MR. DENTON:
In other words, the 15 days is sort 17 of on the theory that you've got multiple units and you ought 18 to be able to make these changes in 15.
19 VOICE:
In the case of category three, I mean, you're 20 really saying:
Be ready unless you've got an equipment 21 problem.
Is that it) in essence?
22 MR. DENTON:
Make all the changes that are required 23 by the end of the month, unless there is an equipment 24 problem, and which there are usually two or three items that svederal Reporters, Inc.
25 are equipment-related for any plant.
There are usually less i
28
, +
mt3 14 I
than that.
2 VOICE:
If they have an equipment problem, how far 3
in advance would they have to let you know in order for you to 4
give them another extension?
Before the 31st or on the 31st? -
5 MR. DENTON:
No.
If they didn't come in by that 6
time, I wouldn't respond.
I' expect them within ten days.
7 VOICE:
So they can't wait until the last minute.
8 MR. DENTON:
No.
9 VOICE:
Isn't there a big distinction in category 10 three, as I read it more carefully now?
/
11 MR. DENTON:
Category two --
12 VOICE:
I mean, within category three, except for 13 those changes which are d ependent on delivery of necessary 14 equipment or reactors for which owners have not committed to 15 an implementation.
16 MR. DENTON:
Let me expbain category two more exactly.
17 Then you'll see what category three is.
18 All the category two plants have agreed to make the 19 changes some time in January, but not on the 1st.
Ones like 20 Maine Yankee are going to run three days, five days, something 21 like that, extra.
Ones in category two have already committed 22 to shut down in January and make these changes.
s 23 The ones in category three are people who wanted 24 beyond the end of January.
So if they don't get confirmatory weded R oorters, Inc.
25 orders, they get show cause orders that say, show cause why I
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.I you should not make.these~ changes in January.
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1 So there's a dif ference. I guess, in the a ttitude of 2
Category 2 companies and Category 3 companies.
Category 2 3
companies had all committed to do it in January, pretty 4
close to the deadline.
Category 3 plants all wanted to go 5
beyond the end.
6 VOICE:
In Category 3, you have those people who 7
had committed to implementation by January 31 and people who 8
weren't coanitted who said they couldn't do it.
9 VOICE:
How many are not committed?
How many in 10 Category 3 were resisting?
11 MR. DENTotis Let me ask our compiler.
Tom, do you 12 want to take a guess at it, Tom Telford?
13 MR. TELFORD:
I think there's a total of 17 plants 14 that will have to shut down earlier than they'd planned to 15 to meet these requirements.
16 of them will be in the 16 February time-frame.
17 MR. EISENHUT It's an either/or situation.
That's 18 why there's really two groups under Item 3.
19 Some plants, for example, nay only have one item 20 remaining.
But that item may be an equipment piece that 21 isn't coming in until April.
22 So they can order just specifically for that item.
23 Another plant may have the equipmeqt but may want to do it 24 on March 15th.
25 They also did an order.
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MR. DENTON:
We have that breakdown.
If you'd 2.
like to get together, we've got it plant-by-plant on when 3
their last proposal to us was.
4 VOICE:
I gue.ss -- could you have people who were
-5 committed to implementing these changes by January 31, and 6
then say because of delays in equipment, we can't do it.
7 But we'll do it as soon as we can.
8 In'that same category, did you have people who say, we 9
never committed to January 31.
10 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
.11 VOICE:
Can you say how many never committed to 12 January 311 13 MR. DENTON:
de've got a table here that has all 14 the plants and all their commitment dates.
And maybe 15 af terwards we'll psych it out, what the breakout was.
1 16 VOICE:
Is it a valid distinction?
17 MR. DENTON:
Well, some plants rea lly wanted to 13 run until the next refueling, even though they had the 19 equipment.
That's what we said no to.
20 VOICE:
How many of those?
21 MR. EISENHUT Very few.
Most of the plants in 22 question here have an equipment problem or had an equipment 23 problem.
They couldn't have done it in January, for l
24 example.
25 We realize by waiting already until the end of January, a
~
c-32
^ 50 03 03 gshDAV-1 lot of 'those problems were taken care of.
2 VOICE:
Category 3 seems to be a real catch-all, 3
doesn't it?
4 MR. FOUCHARD:
de didn't want to go be yond five 5
categories in the pre ss release.
That's the answer.
6 (Laughter.)
7 MR. FOUCHARD:
I was confused enough with the 8
five.
9 MR. DENTON:
Overa ll, I guess I'd like to leave 10 the impression that what we've done with the short-tern 11 lessons learned are not going to be a loose end.
The re's 12 been comments about unresolved safety issues that go and go 13 year af ter year like ATWS, or what have you.
14 This is something where the staff has identified changes 15 that need to be made.
We've had a lot of meetings with 16 industry.
17 We've come to the end of the road.
We've established 18 deadlines and orders.
So at least these particular lessons 19 will be behind us.
And then we can worry about the longer 20 term actions or forthcoming actions f rom other groups af ter 21 that.
22 VOICE: What is the final deadline for all 68 23 operational plants?
June !?
24 MR. DENTON:
Nothing can go be yond June 1.
But 1 25 don't think that there will be any cause for anyone to get s
w 6-
156 03 I)4 gt:hDAV I
cl6se t'o that.
2 VOICE:
Is that a 6-month extension, then?
3 MR. DENTON:
I'd sure hate to see it projected 4
that way.
5 VOICE:
I mean is it?
6 Md. DENTON:
No.
The only reason I put in the end 7
date was just to keep someone on a single piece of equipment 8
stretching out the delivery date on that one.
9~
That's the absolute end date.
10 VOICE:
January I is the former absolute end cate.
11 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
12 VOICE:
Now it's June 1.
No, it's the end of February and the 14 end of January is the end date, except for those things
~
15 which are equipment-related.
Anything equipment-related I'm 16 not going to let it go beyond June 1.
17 VOICE:
The initial deadline you gave was January 18 1 for compliance.
19 MR. DENTON:
That's right.
20 VOICE:
Now it's June I for compliance.
21 MR. DENTON:
I wouldn't say it that way.
22 VOICE:
How would you say it?
You've got a bunch 23 of dates in there.
24 MR. DENTON:
Except for equipment-related items.,
25 the end of January is the end date.
So that encompasses d
34 356 05 05 gchDAV I'
95 'perc*ent o f the items.
2 VOICE:
Except in - the case where all equipment 3
should be delivered and installed by June 1.
4 MR. DENTON:
Maybe I'm not communicating.
I f you 5
look at the chart, there are only a very f ew pieces of 6
equipment that are going to be delivered af ter the end of 7
January.
And I'm giving them 30 days af ter the delivery in 8
those few isolated examples.
9 But just to protect myself against one piece of equipment 10 not coming in until the end of the century, I'm saying June 11 i for anyone.
12 So the end of January is really t'he date for the vast 13 majority of the items.
And then there will be a few people 14 scattered on a f ew pieces of equipment between the end of 15 January and toward June.
v 16 MR. EISENHUT That's 50 out of 1400, to give you 17 an idea.
The vast majority of everything will be completed 18 by the end of January.
19 VOICE:
50 out of 1400 items.
20 MR. EISENHUT You figure that there's abo'Jt 1400 21 individual items that need to be fixed on the plants.
22 VOICE: Can you break it down by plants, of the 68?
23 MR. EISENdVT We certainly could.
'de h a ve that 24 inf orma t io n.
de could go through it item by item.
25 VOICE: Break it down to the thousands of items, or w
35 J50 03 t6 gshDAV-I whatever.
- MR. EISENHUT The figure to remember is in fact 2
3~
just that.
4 VOICE:
How many plants, when you say a vast 5
majority?
6 MR. EISENHUT How many plants?
7 VOICE:
dhen you say the vast majority will be in 8
compliance by the end of January --
9 MR. DENTON:
You can certainly take the 30 and the 10 14, which gets you 44 plants.
That's the first two 11 categories will be in total compliance by the end of 12 January.
13 Then the' others will be in total compliance, except for 14 eq uipment-re la ted.
And they will scatter as equipment 15 begins to come in with a diminishing number each month.
s 16 VOICE:
What's the deadline for 5 with the 17 reliability problems?
18 MR. EISENHUT It's also June the 1st is the end 19 deadline.
20 MR. DENTON:
The same June 1st applies to them.
21 But the nominal one is February 15th, unless they make a 22 convincing case.
23 If you take San Onofre, I understood at least today they 24 plan to shut down something like January 21st, anyway.
25 So even though they're in this category and are being s
4
/*
36 150 03 07 gshDAV I
offered a chance to provide an extension, they apparently 2
think the situation will improve out there and do plan to 3
comply.
(
4 MR. FOUCHARD:
That's just Trojan coming back up.
5 MR. EISENHUT No.
They had it originally 6
scheduled, for example, for a January 1 shutdown in order to 7
be in compliance by January 1.
8 But because of the energy reliability situation, they 9
were deferring that outtage to January 21.
10 MR. DENTON:
I expect the real world to be 11 somewhat better than these orders show because there will be 12 unexpected outtages in some plants between now and the end 13 of January.
And we have as a general policy that whenever a 2,
8 14 plant is down long enough to make these changes, we want J
15 these changes made.
s 16 MR. FOUCHARD:
Thank you very much.
17
(/lhereupon, at.2: 45 p.m.,
the hearing was 18 adjourned.)
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 s
.. _. _.