ML20205A175

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Transcript of Commission 790417 Closed Discussion in Washington,Dc Re Personnel Aspects of TMI Investigation. Pp 1-74.Portions Deleted
ML20205A175
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Site: Crane 
Issue date: 04/17/1979
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REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8504250447
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{{#Wiki_filter:- / 1 .pn "mu e r !b(. Transcript of Proceedings i t,,4 , NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

  • ewei COntinLiatiCn Cf D-rSSICN T TIREE MILE ISIASD IhVESTIC4.TICN FERSCtCEL A PECIS c

(Closed to Public Atterdance) Tuesday, April 17, 1979 Pa;es. - 74 Prepared by: C. H. Brown Office of :ne Secretary 1 8504250447 790417 PDR 10CFR PT9.7 PDR umumme

t. i.e s 8e 5 I p. 3 1 9 I e I"i!TED STATES OF AMERICA 2 i h.CLEA.R REGULATORY COMMISSION h. 3 i jl 4 Continuation of 3 j! DISCUSSION OF TEREE MILE ISLAND INVESTIGATION .I 18 6 ll (Personnel Aspects) 1: 7 l'ij 8 ii (CLOSED TO PUBLIC ATTENDANCE) ll 81 ft 9 c. 'j Chairman's Conference Room 1 0 ;, 1717 H Street, N.W. Washington, D. C. 11 '; ji Tuesday, April 17, 1979 1 2 :i t 13{i Yne Cc mission met pursuant to notice at 4:35 p.m., i 14 !i Victor Gilinsky, Acting Chairman, presiding. ,.1 15 =.me s.e.x... ., 1; .~ .:. e. Chai=an Hendrie i'

1. / ;

C =issicner Gilinsky F Cc=issioner Kennedy 15 i Comissioner Bradford t ij Comissioner Ahearne l 19 'i ,30 , ALSO PRESENT: 3ic:ai: 3 I S. Eilperin O. 3 roan (Reporter) 22

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,i <r. ' i 'e.' i.- 1 2 i i I 1 r PROC.EEDINGS 2 E ji COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Shall we get started, I think a 3 )Joewillbehereshortly. I talked with someone - over at the Nationa1 Tra.Vh-5 i ation and Safety Board to said -he see:Ed very anxious to be helpful, and 6 said that he would get back to us with some names or name, 7 p and apparently~the President's Commission has also been i' 8 talking with him or will be talking to him soon. He.had 9 some other observations-- one was that he would conduct 10 j this as much as an in-house effort as possible, because he 11 I said it is important for the agency to learn how to do this. 12, COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That comes, though, from i 13

  • a guy on a board which is itself, not in-house to the agencies i

14 ; COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: That's true, I thought about 15 that. It is a little different than --- 16, COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It's really very different. i 17 i It's caly function is that. l r i i a 18 CO."_v.ISSIONER BRADFORD : Yes. I i 19 j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: So it is terribly important 20 , that it learn, that's its job. 21d: COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. I mean, they are not 22,[l investigating themselves. i 1 ] COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. 9 3 '! l i u 6me e 4h f e eh e e e 9.a t same point to me, very strongly, f 25 i t - O

r' t e- ~ !. j s o t c..* r, 3 i e. I COMMISSIONER.GILINSKY: He also said that in picking i l i 2 '.: somebody to head it up he wanted to think a little bit about e h] how he transfers -- what he learns from this experience to the 3 4 staff. In other words, not only about' the accident, but about how you learn, -d t I COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: The Rickover situation is -C 7 or at least as far as the submarines are concerne: also cited here, I those guys will"do their revisa with the eye that they might be - g COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, I know. He was just a b advising on -- that we ought to be able to utilize our own 10, ceoole to a large extent. i 11 '. ~ COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. 12 i, 13!l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Thev would learn the most 41.' from it, benefit the most from it. i I mean, if we didn't have the people that could do 15 it, then maybe we cught to get new people. 16 i COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I think Congressman Dingell 17., ,'- has made --- 18 i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I think he included it all 1 19 pd the way up to those in this room, perhaps starting. 20 ll Are we waiting for Joe? 21-1 I' COMMISSIONER GILINSvv-ves. s 22 - t i (Pause) i h 23 d l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Have vcu had a chance to tao .i 24 I your rescurces anc --- l 25 l

l' 11

  • y.

4 (.' e i i i i i s COSS11SSIONER KENNEDY: (Nods in the af firmative) i 1 + 2' E (bir. Bickwit and Comissioner Ahearne carrying on p.il 3 1 simultaneous conversation.) b COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: There'are a whole series 4 5 of pecple who say, Gee, get ) 6 i U COFS1ISSIONER GILINSKY: 7 I who is by all odds COFSi!SSIONER KENNEDY: 3 9 / the best of the lot, I'm told, from reliable sources. t i COFS1ISSIONER GILINSKY: And he is what? 10 COFSiISSIONER KENNEDY: 11 i l COFSiISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. He is one of those 12 + 1 y 13il pe pie that jmentioned. i I COFS11SSIONER KENNEDY: But of all those people, he { 14,) I is the one that I get the very highest reco==endations on., ~ t 15 COFSiISSIONER AHEARNE: He ran the 16,! j 1 h, l ~# "l 3-ti 513. BICKWIT: Which one was that.? 18 l y s' COFSi!SSIONER KENNEDY: I* 19 MR. BICKWIT: Yes. l 20 :: 21 l!l COFS1ISSIONER KENNEDY: This thing -- I don' t know I what he' s doing now --- 22 1*== f COFSiISSIONER AEEARNE: y ~ 23 l i COFSiISSICNER GILINSKY: Do we have a resune on him? i i 24 ;!..11 COSSi!SSICNER AHEART : Yes. i 25 !. l ei I b I i 6 L_.

I i 4.'. ,, =. 5 ~ I 1 CO3SiISSIONER KENNEDY: They sent it around. 2 ;; CObDiISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh, here it is, yes. COMMISSIONERKENNEDY:( ) Well,no.[ 4 {! cob 0iISSIONER AHEARNE: 5 g il s a 7 i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes, I = m 3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I 9 j d i 10 i COBS 1ISSIONER KENNEDY: I'm also told that there isn' t ' il ll.'j any reason in the world why we shouldn't pursue 12 ~ COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Where is he? COMMISSIONERKENNEDY:( 13 ! 14 I } 15 n 16 'i COSDiISSIONER AHEARNE: [- { 5t

3.,t s

l, i l 18 CCFDiISS10NER KENNEDY: L i i 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: No, ,Iwas the c.uv. i 'O'g ~ I I COSS!!SSICNER KENNEDY: That'srigh,{ eas 9, 22fthe?OY-CO!OiISSIONER AHEARNE:

3. 3

,i, e g 't W e. C0:Oi!SSIONER KENNEDY: L i. t i 1

I s e 5 5 1 _3 d= 1, ; 2 [ { n "J ]Didyouknowhim? COW.ISSIONER AHEARNE: No. .t -a - COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 7 'l COM'1ISSIONER GILINSKY: I also put in a call to l n t jL' _ ] but didn' t.~get a hold of him. 8 Let me jus see if c ^ I

t. he wc'uld sugcest anyone.

~ 3 4 .. }... ( Pau s e ) j e 11'.'.i... - CO:OiISSIONER GILINSKY: Have v.ou cursued any others I I 12j-beyond the lawyers, Len? l ij 13.i F3. 3ICr.iIT : No. l I 14.:, .v.e... _e. _- =. -.. r..q. N&o. re I a 15.:, COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: I thought we were supposed t -t i 15 to end up --- !i 1I .v 2 .e _ r e. .R.7.N. s l i 13 3 I t' II' _1 c COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I also understand the-s. tl \\ l-90. President's Cc W ssion is supposed to come down with a t ~ i. L 2' selection in the next couple of days, or few days. r .f.

-~

2 9 ': COM'CSSIONER AFIARNE: Of a director? i, l-CO.v_u..r. o-.:.O s r.e G..,.s S.s.v. vos. , 3 ;... ~ z. l CO.v_'CSSIONER SRADFORD : That, I think, is the wrong _ 9.,, ei y-on the lecal. s: n 1 a l = k l-i -r.

l- ..., 's t t ? 7 i ? 'i 1 [ CO!GISSIONER AHEARNE: Pardon me? ~ 2 [ COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: The wrong -- for the legal, .. p 3 i.l. l pi 4 l. l C 4 t 5 MR. EILPERIN: Okay. 6 t. (Pause)~ i t 7 h. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well -- Let's see, this 8 fellow 9 i,l 10 [l CO!GISSIONER AHEARNE: At length. 11

  • COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes.

i: 12 II COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I suggest --- 1: 't ' I 13 : COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: He certainly would understand 14!l PWR's. i 15 :' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: He has a, f 16 fe 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But he has been a* t 12 j l' 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh, I'm sure he was there, -_. l it just tha: 4 COMMISSIONER AEZARNE: He left 22 n I 23. 2 '. ' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, still, I think it l I l -nes this problem ,m l I

d~ n r '.I t l l 8 i:' i l' h^ CON,MISSIONER' KENNEDY: Don't forget that a lot of i: 2 these are coming to idle age when, as a matter of fact, -this. 3 I year, a number of young people who were just named Nobel 4 laureates, it turns out 25 years ago were awarded subs'tantial;- 3 5 j, scholarships by the Westinghouse.Corporati~on. So you'are I r R J. getting to a point where one way or another, anybody who knows 7 anything is_ probably. tainted by somebody. 8 ~ ~ COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It turns out that the 9 year that I. graduated from high school the -- Westinghouse 10 changed the date when you had to send these things in a i 'r 11 month earlier, and the teacher in charge of this in high school N So we have an entire graduating class that is clean. 12 i forgot. I ~ 13. 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I see, I didn't prepare I 4 I I L 15 a project that year'and I felt rather bitter about it. p (Chairman Hendrie arrives at the meeting. ) 16 -I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: You made it. 3 ij e CHAIRMAN EENDRIE: Not too good, but -- You would 18 19 thynk somebody has been working on me with a knife. 20 . COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: A lot of the press people t 21 f n the rocm were speculating to that. i One of them asked me af terwards what the real 2 II 23 - l storv was. COMMISSIGNER GILINSKY: Whar the real storv is. ~ 24 II CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: Did you tell him we have pretty 25 t !!n t{ .I r J

Y ,,.. !;p ~ 9 -l i .I 1. [, vigorous discussions at these Cc= mission meetings, and there 2 Il are inevitably winners and losers. 3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I told him I wasn't sure, l' ^ 4 but I thought you had done it at a press conference. 1 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, lets see, Dick, you i 6 have your names 'r just --- o 7 COMMI-SSIONER KENNEDY: Yes, 7 s p 9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: J 10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: These guys are legal, i 11i! technical? L 12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: No, technical. I ~ i 13. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And who's the other guy? l l i' 14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: w' & ) 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I 16 i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes. j r i I ' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is he 17 I 8-- .} l 18 l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: n COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 19 COMISSIONER GMNSm 20 i t COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Uh-hum. 21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Are they in here? 22 9 l 23 Itl' afternoon. 24 i: 7 6. 25 !. J-- I! h ( 4

'l s y i. i. b j 6-l 10 I 1 l COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: 1 b 2 ij COMMISSIONER KENNEDY; F I 3 W l 4 s CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And the other one? 5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And the other one is 6 7 b 8 - -- COMMISSIONER BRADFORD : Do we need to task semebody to-pe'rform -La. 'Js I unctil~cin on t'.he technical so ts, quicklh'?.. f g -- t I ~ _. I ~

CQMMISS,IONER. GILINSKY
We11,'they ha.ve ---
10. l[.. v..

.m.,, --...-n..- . r ll::=.. :_., z...... u.-COMMISSIONER BRADFORD':. They have drawn..up the:ZbH. g..---..- 12 ll list, but at the point of when it comes to making phone calls"---_ i i. CO.ASiISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh. 13.I it le [j CO.ND1ISSIONER 3RADFORD: -- and gathering data, I mean, .!i we lawyers can do almost anything, but --- 15 1 I'll take that down as the I COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: 16 ~ l; data. "~ ~ ~ - ~ COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: We don't necessarily know ^ 18 I the right questions to ask, but -- you technical people --- COMMISSIONER GILIliSKY: Well, these are all famous 20 I! people, I guess we have to -- we've got so many names that 21 I think we have to have some idea of what it is we're looking 22 for. 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Do vou mean, narrow the range? 24 ]I,1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I don't think so. We've I ~5 r 7 f, !, cot -- probably, and about the c e e w i:: l !x

I-6 l .. l;e i. i 11 I i I 1 I fsameneeroflagers. 1 COMMISSIONER AEEA? lie: 2 :: 3 t es, I hope that .3 v COMMISSIONER GILINSKY-4 somehow out of this will come contracts. 5 I" 6 Safetv' Board? 7 y ], .COM)!ISSIONER GILINSKY: He didn't get back to me. 8_ _. He, ah --- 9 that 'may co:ite in 'later today. - I .. CEAIRMA'i. EINDRIE : Ah, ~~ -10i 'f,.s.,; . _ CCFD1ISSIONER GILINSKY: I'll tell vou, mv own _.. _ t 11 ~ .~ :.. . 7. thinking is I'd like, well, sort of one lawyer with investi-12l' Sative experience and one person with sort of' technical l !! accident experience. Oh, I must say, if somebody like 4 !! 1 lj

t.,

15,1 % l'6 r! i! .Wnatever hancened, bv the wav, withourh 3., y l y en= l i I w 18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. 19 I COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: Yes. I 20 b CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I i. 21i I } 22 I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh, veah, that's right. i 23 Well, I don' t know, does anybcdy have any thoughts 24 "i h about what sort of -- g 2 5,: l CCMMISSIONER AEEARNE: Yes, perhaps t 1

s .. 4 i 12 l 5; l'l i 1 1 1 M !i CO.'t4ISSIONER GILINSKY: -- ceoole we ought to be 2 [ looking for or which lawyers --- t i s 3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I thought Peter's approach, _, 4 that he mentioned the last time was very good. ( 5 6 7 8 t ~ 9 10 ~~

)

11 12i 1 13.! I a i n i t-t 14 l! ) 15' 'COS24ISSIONER BRADFORD: ( 16."l e i 17 MR. BICKWIT: 1 13 g 19 COSU4ISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you, Len, you. 20 t are probably more familiar with this list of lawyers than any f 21 of us, have you thought about --- t 22 MR. BICK;iIT : Which would be the best? 23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Suppose you picked cc 24 j suppose you had to pick out( be 4 m an e a t l I I F i i!

p ...1 it i i 13 I t-1 h COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. Obviously,this;F fwouldbe'on--- g 2 ;! MR. BICKWIT: I haven't really looked at it.

Now, 3

e if he's --- the ones I know, I'd say ;- 4 s I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you, someone said, 5 5 6 MR. BICKWIT: Yes, that's right. 7 -COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: [~, g 9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I would think so, 10 MR. BICKWIT: I think so. y COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: All right, we'll just cross --- 12 i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Who is that? 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, let's see, are we I 14 i I ,,i making a rule that if the firm has nuclear business the man 3j 16 [ is ineligible or is there some question of degree? l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That, I think, is a stricter rule than the firm itself would be likely to make --- 18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What would the bar association 19 do in a --- I 20 COMMISSIONER-3RADFORD: Well, it's hard to say, but --- 21 MR. BICKWIT: I don't think there would be any 22 problem. 23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: If you represent a 24 !!y uranium miner somewhere, then the chances that that would be 25 il regarded as comparable to this investigation, I don't think arej l 4 I i 1 i e

.a 1 ...,y i.- 14

l=:

r 1 f very great, unless it happened 2 to be a firm that was integrated (inaudible) 1 3 i j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 4 I Given the fact that we have a large number of people who are potentials 5 I would consider that until we get to the point where we are really 6 scratching a bar. 7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, you may lose practically 8 the whole list. The nuclear industry isn't a snall one, and 9' between having a' firm representing utilities, having it. 10 i represent vendors, having it represent architect / engineers 11 I'm sure that any of the larger firms will disappear if 12 i you define that, criterion broadly. 13 I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What is a reasonable role 14. here? .i 15 l I MR. EILPERIN: t Well, certainly that the person 16 himself can't*have financial interests in any' nuclear 17 business. You may just have some sort of general rule which is not as strict about the firn being totally disqualifi d i 18 e f 19 it has nuclear busines. I mean, that's not the usual conflict of interest rule that we apply in hiring a consulta t 20 n. We don't usually say that if his organization has 21 nuclear business that that is a bar to him serving as a consultant 22 23 CHAIRMAN EENDRIE: It's a matter of his personal 24 a tivities. 25 MR. ILPERIN: Y. It's usually a matter of his personal I i b ,,yy-e -*9-Y -I

s ~ ........ s tq 15

I 4

.e-1 !! financial interests. [ 2 [, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I would be inclined to I 3 { hang--- l MR. BICKWIT: We would have to go beyond that. 4 5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes, what is a senior 6 j, partner in a major law firms financial interest, there is 7 !! the distribution of fee incomes --- 8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. i 1. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I mean, I -- 9 c 10 lI MR. BICKWIT: I think we have to go beyond -- I 11 ! think we would have to apply --- i 12l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Is there something that -- 13 ll MR. BICKWIT: -- a reasonable --- 14

  • COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Is there something between f s. the man --- 15y! 16 '. MR. BICKWIT: -- instinct. 17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: -- not being involved and !l the firm not being involved at all? 13.! 19 ' MR. BICKWIT: There is a distinction, but I think f 20 if the firm is involve.d to the degree that6 21 is involved, e ought to censider partners in the fi:=. i: Whether or not those partners are directly involved. 22 y CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And they are substantially 23 involved in the nuclear ---

9.,

MR. BICKWIT: Well, it appears that way. The . s-

l .p.. o 16 \\' ll u i i 1 iT s L The getting the COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 2 3 4 w 5' 6 I think we are going to have MR. BICKWIT: 7 ht r --- dif ficulty formulating an exact rule, but I think w a eve i 8 l (Inaudible) But whatever, l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: 9 i this violates it. -- we formulate, MR. BICKWIT: Ijuststruckh 10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 11 who I think is an able 12 Okay. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: -- able guy, I struck him 13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 14 15 le off the list for the same reason, All right, well is there i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 16 '. anyone else who gets knocked off the list this way, or --- i 17 We haven't really --- MR. BICKWIT: 18 j That's one way to reduce i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: i 19 ! 20 j the list. }whoelse would Okay, you say you have got 21 22 [ be on your --- It's dif ficult for me -- S teve knows o U un BICKWIT: Apparently both you and e3 n 24 j more of these people than I know. 'l was very good. t-- il Steve had heard that,- 3.=

e ~ ] I o il 17 i 0 1 l 1 MR. EILPERIN: As I said before, I would rank 7 Ih )first. Iwouldcertainlyconsider[, M aho's --- ]r 2 MR. BICKWIT: Yes, I would too. i 3 i 4 MR. EILPERIN: -- very, very sound and well I don't know what would be the extent of his 5 respected.

6. I investigatory background, but I think he is a very distinguished lawyer and it would be worth talking to him.

7 I Now, those in New York City, I think that a person 8 l like[, ])youcouldn'treallyapproachwithoutan 9 understanding that he would be the top dog. I just don' t 10 m think you can approach a y saying that 11 1 12 you should be COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: Sure. 13 p MR. EILPERIN: -- so that you can certainly call 14 15 ! him, but it would be understanding that we would assume 4 16 ] that he is not particularly interested at all if he would 4 17 ] have to accept a role other than leading the investigation. 9 is [ COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: My own contacts,although t' admittedly brief and hurried, said if we were able to get 19 20 l[ we would be extraordinarily fortunate .i He is extraordinarily highly 21 and well served, indeed. 22jregarded. o MR. EILPERIN: So I would certainly --- 23 - 2 4 '! COMMISSICNER KENNEDY: But : understand he is in practice ir. New Yor.k now. 25

S ij ........ n. i }l 18 1 MR. EILPERIN: That's right, that's right, which, f 2 in a sense I think, makes it easier -, l 3 2 4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: y 5 6.! COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes,b I, 7 I 8 1 9 10 MR. EILPERIN: I understand that was not the 11 reason. 12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Yes, mine --

13 'it 14 i MR. EILPERIN: So I would certainly say we should 4 contact ( .)Iknowfrom 15 V 16 ! having talked toq" Ta il 3, .J does have some interest. So that's already one eerson pl who the Co::: mission might want to talk further with on that. 3- .O COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I think we should talk 19 20 with this fellow,y i .,. Ii COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Who? sa J COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: A fellow by the name of 22 ,L is 2,j. somebody recommended to me. MR. EILPERIN: That is a potential. 24 COMMISSIONER GIL:'NSKY: Could you look him up ---

,s p l i i 39 l' i l i f 1 MR. EILPIRIN: Sure. j COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: -- and get his --- 2 3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Of the names that you 4 have here, the ones that look, I guess, particularly 1-5 interesting to me were, I would add [ ] 6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes. 1- ', to that list. I would also addi a 8 i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What sort of background does[ 9 have and --- 10 ' MR. BICKWIT: Investigatory. 11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Investigatory. BICKWIT:b ] 12 MR. 13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Who was he? ? i 14 l MR. BICKWIT: g I 15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: But which one is -it? { ] 16 MR. BICKWIT: 17 !, COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Oh, yes. y 13 '

yes, that's right.

19 MR. BICKWIT: He's a little on the young side, 20,. I think. 4 21 l COMMISSIONIA KENNEDY: You know, we'd better ask i 22 '! ourselves if we are looking for a prosecu.or. Il 23 :j COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: See, these other guys are --- 24 i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: There's a difference. MR. BICKWIT: I thin. a prosec"torial background 25

i l X..... 20 i l l i could be terribly helpful in something like this. 1 j 2 l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Yes, but the other guys I

were recommended to me because they dealt with large, 3 complex cases. complex investigations -- you know - large, 4 5 That's a little dif ferent. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: For whatever it may be worth, 6 but and I don't know whether it has any connection or not, 7 l it should be noted that if hewash 8 9 j ) 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That's right, you are 11 12 right. Yes. is --- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 13 MR.EILPERIN: That's true. 14 k MR. BICKWIT: -- is Pennsylvania or --- 15 l r i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: y 16 j 17 ii 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Yes, that ought to 1

19 ' strike him, 20, t COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Scme of these Rasmussen 0 21 events; they meet again. 22 1: COMMISSIONER AHEAR'IE: Then that limits mine 23 jt ) rom these would be 2 4 " to -- SoE ] c m ISSIONER O = =SxY 2,

,..,... g I 21 i i i. 1 COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: Yes. ~~[ I 2 i CCRMISSICSER G" NS~C: What about J.. .l. COMMISSIONER KENNEDYi

Yes, I thought somebody had

[. l 4 said[- 5 MR. BICKWIT: He's on that list too. 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I 'put him down, but 7 L I really think he's not the right sort of guy. 1 8 I COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: I guess realistically, what- ~.- l ^ 9 j I was looking for was --... -. ..... ~ -... l~ 0. -{ _' ~.-.__.....~..COMMIS S. ION..E R. GILINS_K. Y,: _,e,,. 11 -12 COmiISSIONER AEEARNE: i 13 ' li 14 l l 1-15 i.. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, I think ei-iner I 1. M I 16 . would find that -- if they were interested at all, s ( 17 I-would find that comfortable. They would not find. that a big I 18 : problem. p i 3,9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But L not soins to P ck 20 up and come here for six months. li COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I don't know. I don't know t.1 g i 29 i wno is. -i He's 0 CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I also think that --es 24 ;i n t an investigator, I mean, he's sort of a policy-oriented 25 lawyer. He's a super-smar guy, no question about that. He

i j. i 4 j t I 22 d l' j 1 ll doesn' t strike me as -- you know, he's more of a guy to. 4.. 2 [ think about our oil import policy than -- you know, that I, 3 )sortofcomplicatedmessupat'Harrisburg. 4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: No, you may be right. 5 What about Bunn? 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Well, I' guess I don't really r

n 7 know[ except, you know, I have run in to him here. s COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: ~ ~ m 9 andImustsay,[ j ~ COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Yes, 10 11, 12 i

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: All the people who 13 l-participated in that exercise did. And I might add, that j i: 4-- 14 l applied, not only to his colleagues,_ l i 15 S, 16 i i, h Which is s'rt i o .s 1el; I 18 l of what we are trying to get to here. I i MR. BICKWIT: Well, if you have a lawyer on top, 19 I I mean, he's got to be v.ery technically qualified. I would - ' 20 Yes - (' 21 ! coxxISSIoura Krantor: I / i 2 2.. 1 'i MR. BICKWIT: No, well I --- 40 i-COMMISSIONER SRADFORD:

Well, I'r. not prepared to 4,

$s to say. 9.3 e 3 0 9

p. l' m _.... i:. a i i-23-i i i. i r i 1 -!! MR. BIC1~dIT : I'm not sure you should either,

1 2 i, but I ---

31 11 3 'l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Think you should or shouldn't7 I 4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Should not. 5. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I'm not. prepared to say that ; ll 6 '1 either. MR. BICKWIT: My own feeling is 7 ) ~ 8 79.. I.... .. ~,..- COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But you.- I. don't--think-_..- . y g. q;ti= :-yg y = g. 7 .. -===;. . x .n

  • ~~10"!! "youJshould ' - '

~ c g q .g. 11 h CO:01ISSIONER KENNEDY: The trouble with that is, ? l' 12 { as one of cur lawvers here so well put it one day, vou always l I. i 13 " then have to ask yourself the question: Are you getting a ) 14 ; lawyer's answer or the technical guy's answer, and which is f h. i 15 ] he today? Is he going to be a lawyer or a technical guy? ..n 16ll And I think there's something to that.- No denigration j t 17 li involved, but just I think --- i, Il 18 h COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, you know, you have to -I il 8 h8 19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: There are two dif ferent aspects } . 2 0.' cf the question. Ncw, maybe that --- i . ;I COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes, but just because l 21 ' t. i d somebody savs he knows the cuv

o. 2,,

i i. 23 MR. BICK*dIT: A non-technical lawyer, I cannc: ses l-24 making recc==endatiens on these highly technical questi:ns, which are his own recc=mendations. 25, 6 k [ i t

n }'. l g I 24 i .t 1 hg COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But non-technical, I'm not sure I understand. I thought that in pushing for - ' in trying 3 to get someone with investigatory experience, it's the ability 4 to dig through the complex situation and make a logical 5~' framework on that was important. 6 MR. BICKWIT: But make a judgment also. 7 . COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But are you saying that 8 you are trying to find that kind of a skilled lawyer who 9 also has sufficient technical credentials that you would weigh his technical judgment judgment? l 10 11 ! MR. BICKWIT: Well, he's going to be making some 12 recommendations --- 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I understand that. 14 MR. BICKWIT: Yes, yes. i l i 15 i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well I don't-- I haven't 16 seen any --- 17 I MR. BICKWIT: -- You know, you can say --- 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: He's going to have to. 19 rely on his staff. 20 MR. BICKWIT: Sure. But he's going to take l 21 responsibility for those recommendations. l [ 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. 23 i h COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I don' t think that 9 24 lj technical reccmmendations, at least as I would normally use 4 'S {i the word " technical" that come out of this group, matter i-

a ..8 lI l 25 i i ? i L, 1 half a much as the others anyway --- 2 !l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Right. 3 We're not looking COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: 4 l for this group to tell us how pressuri::er levels ought to be 5 ' designed. 6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I was just puzzled by the -- 7 l Even if there is a lawyer at the top, I wouldn't be placing 8 great reliance upon the technical, in a sense of this 9 strictly reactor technology judgments that individual may make. 10 MR. BICKWIT: Well, then, you go back to say --- 11 ',I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, suppose you get a i 12 technical. Suppose you get a guy out of NASA. Are you going 13 to be relying on his judgment on how reactors work? I mean, L 14 ] you've got the same problem. i 15 ] COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Yes, I know, which was the ii

( 16

  • point I was about to make.

L j 17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: But the point is really to g i l 18 lt! have somebody who is going to be able to manage --- I' I l l l 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, correct. l 20 ; COMMISSIONER BRADFORD- 'he investigation, and i i l 1. l 21 ! under -- ?ao other things: not to have to study for six It 22 [ months to understand basically what they are dealing with; 1: 23 o and also, to have sene sense of how to translate what he 24 l has deal with into -- just to think about it coherently and l 25 be able to set down his thoughts coherently enough, but not i L

!i i p i . i!. I' ~ T 26 i I et 1 ll

only to me, but the other people who have to deal with our 2 lI report, can make something of it.

3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I also think, you know, 5 when you ask where are the pitfalls here, I don't think the 6 problem is that we are not going to -- you know -- get the 7 sequence,in the reactor right to the extent that it can be 8 done, you know, I mean, I expect that a pretty good technical 9 job will be done, because there are pretty senior technical i 10{' guys involved and they are all highly competent. i But if I 11 l' you do a shoddy job, I think it is going to be a disaster for

  • 2i t

i this agency, you know, having to do with the background of 1: 13 ' the event; what came before; were we inspecting thoroughly, 4 i 14 I did we pay attention to the information that we had, did 15 others pay attention to the information they had. How did 16 l we react and that sort of a thing. 17 i I, guess, you know, just as Joe said, you don't want 18 a guy -- this is a pretty complex business, and a difficult i 19 role to play, and you don't necessarily want the smarusst i 20 guy out of the university to do it who is going to get 21 all wrapped up, you know, on the reaction in the reactor 22 [ and things like that. I just think you need somebody with 23 kind of a broader point of view and who is going to unearth l 24 everything about this that there is to unearth. l 25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Yes, but I think that that 4o t

I I

r I i i I e i! r 27 6 l i e ll i 1: l 1 f. kind of person, I would judge, is most likely to be scmeone j i h,, who has tried to put together what has happened in a very 2 it 3 large, complex, technical accidents or technical problems. 4 Someone.who.has run a large technical program that has had 5 ! to concern himself with how do all these pieces fit together, I 6 I make sure that people are doing their job in the right place l 7 : and at the right time. l 'O l lh. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I think that's in the 8 11 9 y right direction, and I'm not sure it needs to be a large d 10 E.! technical program, because a lot of the aspects of.this, I 11 " think, are just not technical. And the ones where I think 12 / we are most likely to do badly on, if we do have highly j t j 13 ! technically-oriented leadership, are the ones that are most 14 likely to cause us griefs. 15 [j COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, except that I think j -16Nthat such questions as: Did the inspection -- Do our l f4 h 17 inspectors do the right things or the inspection of these a 18 plants and other plants done correctly, or the reports 19 picked up, how did that work through the system. In the 20 review process, was it a. thorough review process? Were the i 21 [ details that are involved in the plants sufficientiv

l It 22 / scrutini
ed, were the operator / training procecures and i

23.Fd inspection procedures adequate? All of those are what a 24 technical manager, if he is trying to run a big program, 25 concentraces a lot cf his effer: en, because those are the

n. j. j 28 l 1 i, I li o kplaceswheretheprogramfallsapart. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Right. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Those are the kinds of 4 questions which would have been pursued by a guy who had 5 done a -- who was, on the one hand, a technical program 6^ manager of a very large program, indeed, and tao headed and 7 conducted major 8 investigations of major accident sequences. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Right.. 10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That is precisely the kind 11 of problem that we are dealing with. I l 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, okay. I'm not saying 13 you are wrong, but I think that's not necessarily the guy --- 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Then it's not exclusive. 15! You're right, you're right. Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

yes, these are all 17 important and valuable attributes.

There are also thinc,s 18 like there are going to be all sorts of uncertainties when 19 it comes down -- you know -- who makes a credible case and 20 who doesn't. And that's the kind of thing that lawyers ~ 21 are pretty good at, at least some lawyers, at dealing with. 22 So I - - it ecmes down, you know, to who you can j f n 23.! get, 24 [l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That's true. I think that 25 [. either a top-flight lawyer or a top-flight technical persen of lt i, ij i

7 3 l - i, 5 29 i .d.. i 4. q t g t l-t u I h i 1 the group that we have, _ it would be more important to get i ij the cuality of the individual than the specific characteristic! 2 I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Obviously, as we said a 3 if one were to be able to entice 4 ,i minute ago, h I i into the enterprise, one would have to assume that

3. -

would be the leader of the enterprise.

==

  • q.

That wouldn' t bother me a bit, I l . CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 8 1 I think. 9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's right. But I think if } 10 ' ; one --- I think the individual quality 11 CHAIRMAN ENDRIE: I is -- the individual person is likely, in the final analysis, 12 il l to be the determiner of whether it's one or two --- i 13 I 14 },I COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Right, right. Yes. ? d 15l! COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: On the other hand, if that j i il l 16 } were the case, then there are some people on the list that j. i 17 !! one probably would not wish then to approach for the other j I think that is sort of what we said yesterday. i i 18 ! job.- I 19 l CHAIRMAN ENDRIE: Why don' t we --- I I 20 ij COMMISSIONER ENNEDY: It seems to me you ought to start out and decide which your preference is, and then see 21 if it turns out 22 how that works. And if you don't get -- level !! that you are not going to be able to get the highest 23 i t for that first job from the 24 ' sort of fellow that you want a then stop and particular category, whichever one it is, 25 b - ~ - - - - - - -

li .p 30 l i 'I

i 1 j', regroup, because then you may wish to go to the ot.4er n

.i 'i only quality,' bub 2 ll category to get the higher quality guy -- not 3 4 the higher statured guy, otherwise, you are going to down-4 grade both sides of the exercise very quickly. 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Do you mean decide whether 6-you want a lawyer or a technical person at the top and start 7 it from that? 8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes. 9 l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. 10 l' t COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Let me just restate my l J 11 own preference in this regard. 12 Particularly, I thought about it long and hard and 13 j. asked some people outside who I thought might have views 14 ! in a general way, not about our specific proposals or anythingi I 15l of the sort, but in a general sense, what their feeling is 16 ;, about an essentially internal operation that's a void, you know!, 17 ; that's probably the way to get the job done and you have to l . 18 ; do something like that, but if you don't have it substantially L 19 lardered over or covered over on the top, at least, by 20 ; substantial outside interest, you are just heading for ( f I 21. trouble. Nobody's going to believe you and the first thing j 'I 22 l you are going to be told is: it's a grand job of investigating i 23jyourself. And nobody's going to believe it. n 24, So my cwn preference is, as I suggested yesterday, 25 and in going back to what I thought we had said the name of 9

i 31 '~ ti 1 the game was, which was essentially a " fact-finding" l 2 :. exercise. My own preference certainly would be for two n jl able technical type guys, preferably people who had -- who 3 h 4 l! did understand how to go about investigating accidents with a 0.. sound and able counsel, also an outsider. Now, I think that 5 21 6 r.I would provide us a little bit better ---

l 7 ]

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: How does independence lead i! 8

you to technical leadership?

i 1. 9 $ COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Only because that's what you 10 j are going to have in-house, - almost entirely supporting this l 11 i ooeration. .I 1 2 "a COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, what about a lawyer 3 13 ' with two technical assistants? 14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, I suppose you could, 15 but you know, you have to be careful about what these people 16 do, otherwise, you are going to have the same problem with i 17 the -- l 18. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I guess I don' t follow -- t 19]Imean, I can understand the preference for technica' 20 leadership, just because-it is a large technical ccmponent, j 21, but I don' t see how independence relates to that. 22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, it is only because 1 22 they are going to be supported in this technical work, very ~ 24 heavily, if not almes; entirely by cur own staff on a technical 25 side. It seems to ne it would be awfully good if this chief

9 ]! 3 32 l ? i: li !i 1 E y technical guy had semebody else to talk to. 2 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: But he can do that, I mean, 1 3 ' you know, we can hire outside technical guys. 4 I guess I think that the places where we are most ' I ~ t ~ ~ 5 . likely to fall down are the places where a lawyer is of most 6 help and -- because, I think, we do have a lot of highly 7 competent and skilled technical people who, I think, by and 8 large are' going to do a good job. 9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I always have to believe that 10 . our people are highly cualified technical people. But that, 11 of_ course, is what we are supposed to be investigating, at 12 the moment, among other things. I 13.! ' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes, but this whole thing i 4 l 14 'i; has got a sort of other dimension to it which I think l 15 i NASA investigations and others don' t, and there l is concern outside of the agency that I just don't think 16 17 overlay NASA investigations, or for that matter, aircraf t 18 ! investigations. And it seems to me that the kind of person 19 who will insure all the considerations are brought out, 20 . that later trouble us or outsiders is, in fact, the lawyer. ~ 21 j COMMISSICNIR AEEARNE: We 've got -- At least, we've fgotthePresident'sCcmmissionwhoisgoingtoalsolookat 22 i 23 some of those considerations, and I think we ought to be 24 { primarily concerned that we get the best review done to Fd enable us to take the steps necessary to improve the NRC. 25 h V l 1 i l L r A

i -l 33 ~ j i l 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Sure. Now, a lot of that' 2 is not just, you know, temperatures and pressures. s 3 COMMISSIONER AEIARNE: -Oh, no. But that's, I think, 4 'a -- Well. e 3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I mean, I think I knew 6' what you are saying, and I don't -- as I said, I don ' t 7 disagree, it is just that that isn't the only answer. l COMMISSIONER AdIARNgif It isn't'. I'11 go -back-to ~ I 3-I 9 what I. th. ink Joe sai( it's the quality of the ind,.ividual ~^7.'..;,. s*-**"tage that. is "most impo, rtant. I preferia technical 10, _.,~ -a t-thi.. ~ s 11 ~ person at the top, but I have no problem with'a lawyer who ~ 12 has built'the kind of solid reputation that would lead you 13 to have great confidence. Just the fact that the guy's 14 an experienced lawyer would not lead me to have the same-15 kind of confidence that I would have if I had -- if we could I i P I .. get someone like i 16 1 t 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Any thoughts on this, Peter?- e 19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, I agree with you in 20 ' what you said about what there is to worry about, what we 21 need to get out of this process. I also agree that it 22 matters a creat deal at this point to know who we are really 23 talking about. It's one thing if you are hitching 1 then that's clear. If 9-' w ( f \\ ./ O

34 a l ( )that'sclear. We really ought to find out, and 2 I think probably the way to find out is to call' the first 3 I echelon people on -- j 4 CO>SiISSIONER AHEARNE: On both sides. i o .I COP _MISSIONER BRADFORD: -- both sides,and see s - 6' what we get, because we haven't really got anything worth 7 unless welfind tha: spending a lot of time talking about, we51 ave [..- ]available'to:us.*- ~ ~ ._f-o ~ / CO.'OiISSIONER GILINSKY: O'kay, all right..... h0 - 5.:O -- - t (: -- - - 5 y=l.Q-Q_ , = 7- ? ; 3_ - - --- R --- ~ -- 49 7...: u 3 ..L ' COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: I think Len's ' list ~is ~ 12 about right. I think --- t i 13 CO:01ISSIONER GILINSKY: So it's _1,e 1 :: 7~ COFSiISSIONER BRADFORD: Well., wait, wait. - P I would add to it soccone whom mod'esty may have compelled you to leave off, but I have heard nothing but. verygoodthingsabout( )and--- ~9 1 MR. BICKWIT: I was about to snggest that also. 20 J' CO>S!ISSIONER EENNED'Y: I have heard some othar 1 things about particularly checked. ,,f _ s a 22 1 a terribiv. bricht cuv. and[

He has never 23 done anything else.

And that doesn't make him -- ( 24 CO 01:SSIONER 3RADFCRD : y 23 J 4 0 t )

i a. 35 1 if COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, this must be a r 9 2 different, a s .j t 3 :; MR. BICKWIT: He hasn't done a --- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, I was talking about 4 t: t 5 U the one who is at I !i 4I MR. BICKWIT: Yes. 6 7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: He's --- a t' m 8 l . MR. BICKWIT, m 9 l 10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I.'. ( 11 MR. BICKt/IT : 12 ?, ) t 13, ' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That's your law school, Len? 14, MR. BICKWIT: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: All I know is what I hear. 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, it seems like if there j 17 ig F is any --- f i MR. EILPERIN: There's one possible problem with ig e 20 ] v,. COMMISSIONER'BRADFORD: Well, let's see, you 24 i i ,,, '. can' t blame a guy for who he lives with. l (Simultaneous discussion.) g MR. BICKWI'" : Well, that was a long time ago, I'n 25 /

g 36 I l' sorry to say. t 2 CHAIMLA'i ENDRIE: Well, let's see, 3 Let's go back and reconstitutes t, 5 COSDiISSIONER GILINSKY: 6-CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: (- d 7 COMMISSIONIR GILINSKY: [ ] r 3'-~"~_ ,_,. CHAIRMAN EENDRII: b ] -- / 'I guess b ... )has 9=_ - COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: t J_0. to be.in. kind-.of a separate. category..... . - n...,_ ...n. .. ~.

  • ~.

11 ' CEAIM1AN EENDRIE: Well,-I certainly think he'is .t j .. ~.. - 2 .s 12 and if he -- you know --- 13 COS21ISSIONER KENNEDY: Now, wait. I 14 6, t. _1.*, t. Lo CCSSIISSIONER AEEARN7:.. _ _Other.than _ -..- ~. , _1 t

  • '" [

i MR. BICKWIT: Exceot _38 ) If we COSS1ISSIONER KENNEDY: -- exceut l 19 t~ m 20 were talking about( y or people of thatlorcerion the other side. 23 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I guess I would 22 W certainly think of L , as the number one. I guess I'd find somebody tc suit him en the other side P CEAIRMAN HINDRII: If vou had, on the i 23

l 9 37 l ~ technical side, why you might want to reverse it.. 1 No, Dick,( ) not in 2 3 terms of --- ( COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: No, no. 4 ) s 6' MR. EILPERIN: ( CEAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Yes, j

7 COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: ( f-lt 8 l I . i.... 10 t. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's what I thought. 11 COMMISSIONF.R AEIARNE: -- And either a lawyer or 12 a technical person, because if you can't get one of those 13 14 from either side, you automatically have made your choice. CEAIRMAN EINDRIE:.3ut I thought the query was 15 going to be on the basis that we were looking for a --- f lg COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: Well, o .l ew ( MR. BICKWIT: 19, ) 1 ~ 20 i COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: They aren't necessarilv 2, all of them, people wh'a would throw you into a great 22 l quandarv-if vou got your number one technical. COMMISS OnER GILINSKY: I mean, you are not a offering the jcb to anybody at this point. --.a G .c --._,e . -.. -. ~, --a

= c-38 l i 1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And presumably, part of the j l 2 conversation, 3 9 4 .O g 6' i 7 8... . MR. BICKWIT: (Neds in the af fi: tative) . f

o. -

COMMISSION?R GILINSKY: I guess what you are savin v i I i .1 0.. -.' i s. th. a. t...w.i.th.... you wouldn't. even put it that. - _.. c--. - - - v.. _ ; a -....,. L. 11-Way.,, - CO>DfISSIONER BRADFORD: With , you would. 1 2 1a s a v. " v. e s ". CO>D1ISSIONER AHEARNE: And I would think, you know, 14 on the technical side of the world, with a guy likei 15 I m 3 .it's the same thing.. These guvs --- _1 : COFD1ISSIONER KENNEDY: Or J,, 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: -- have run huce enterc. rises.: ta s _39 They are, in their side of the world, as well known -- l, Theh CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 20 CO>D1ISSIONER AHEARNE: That's right. 2, CHAIRMAN HENDRII: Gee, if you get a "yes" fro: 22 what are we going to do? s.,. COMMISSIONEF AHEARNE: But it really is the same --- 2.,. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Ask them to cet toce:her --- 2

i 4 1 o.. 39 i 1 31R. BICKWIT: You introduce them to one,another, j 2 COSD1ISSIONER GILINSKY: You would be asking hia l 3 " whether he's interested. 4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That's right. 5 CO>D1ISSIONER BRADFORD: That's right. I3 C O.v_'1I S S I O N E R A H E A R N E : I mean, I think the right .Il 7 w a v. to say it is that we are coinc. throughC a.s s g m ~n Es ~- 10 (Simultaneous discussions.) CO3DiIS5IONER GILINSKY: Well, I tell you --- 11 12 MR. SICKWIT: These people are people you are, in 13 fact, considering. 1 i 1.; CO>SIISSIONER GILINSKY: Supppose we look at it j 15 this way, suppose we look at it --- ~ 16 CO.v_Y.ISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, the technical people 17 on here -- I s 18 MR. BICKWIT: All of the lawyers are just names. CO>D1ISSIONER GILINSKY: Suppose we look at it this 19 ', i I way, that you are considering every one of these people for l. a 2 0 !.' .c. _ nu-ber ene, and if you end up with a more formidable technical c. ersen, we will simply go back to this list and see whether any one of them are interested in being nu--3er .e. O,a two. MR. B I C I",C T : But at this point you are considering

.s 40 2 i. 1 i ~ them, but --- 2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You won't ask some o# s' 3 them, but -- I MR. BICKWIT: Some of them you reject for that, I i if you find someone on the technical side who is outstanding, j CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: Would this be --- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: If you are doing that, ~ - -. you are,'in a sense, then deciding one Of two things, it C seems to me. Either that you are not going to look.for O anybcdy else -- of that kind of stature on the other side; i. 1, the technical side or, alternatively, you are going to rule ~ -- 12 out all of these guys, because once you go to them and i say we are considering you for number one, then come back ,4 and say, well, sorry about that, we got another, guy who -15 is going to be number one, but we would like to have you for 15 number two, the guy's going to say, gee, I'm awfully sorry 17 because I just promised my wife I was going to go to Bermuda. 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I don't see any other 19 way to proceed unless we come to an agreement that we want-i 20 one or the other to head it up. 21 COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: No. No, I disagree. I thinkthatifyoucomedownwith( 22 N anc they can be lawyers and 3 e 24 technical people, if we rec 0gnize that if any one of these 25 are'available, tha: they would be number one, and if there is

.t 41 9 then you would have to more than o,ne of them available, 1 it would be recognized that the num.ber one choose which one, but i. 2 person would come out of that group and this other set would 3 And I think that's the then be contacted for number twos. 4 best approach to take. 5 Well, how do you regard this COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 6 '. 1 list of the lawyers names? j 7 You know, I'm ndt in the g , COMMISSIONER AEIARNE: - lawyer w[r U, so'I reallh couldn't do that kind of a 4, - 3 , c _ __. discrimination-that -- because.what, you really have to say - -..; - E _ _ _. e._ . _., - ~ r ;_.- m. 2,-_. u.. _ _..., h. :; ..is here's.a lidt'of ai1 veMi comoeEeEE yeople, which,you ave ~~ ~ ..a 3, ^ and then you have to make some sort of a judgment r{' 12

composed, to say, well, my best guess is that here's a group of 3-as Steve said, andcbviously[

g is one of them, 14

people,

)andthensayanythingother F than that. 16 n

. o 18 i.

19 a l il 20 " i t f 22 Let me ask --- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I think there is something to be 4J MR. IIL?IRIN: said for -- and I prefer Peter's approach,what to x I sN 6 e

t. .s 42 1 Ii 2 3 COICiISSIONER AHEARNE( Would you make the same approach-toh ] 4 5 MR. EILPERIN: Yes. And then if he, 6-7 f I _i 3 CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Then v.ou would sav. the g + -ic .same thing,to the technical people?, CONISSIONERBRADFOh4D: The' dif f 5.ctiltv '-- - - -l l1 - (simultaneous discussions.) ~ 12 CO:OiISSIONER 3RADFORD: I think what you have to 13 say at that point is that you are dealing with a collegial 14 commission and --- 3.:.: MR. BICKWIT: I see the problem. CO.91ISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I think.the problem is that Steve is willing to say that in the case of a lawyer, 3 g but he's not willing to say that to a technical person. 1, 19, MR. EILPERIN: No. 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSRY: I'm inclined to just say n that we are looking for the head of it and then --- 22 MR. BICKEIT: Right. i3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: -- I don't think it's 2.,, the end of the world -- I mean, I don't think you will .o p -.r

'.. a 43 i I necessarily, get refusals from someone who lost ou.t being l 1 : I 2 the head of it, I mean, it depends on who they are. 3 .J COFD1ISSIONER KENNEDY t Oh, I --- a 4 COFD1ISSIONER BRADFORD: But John -- I think John's 5 i, pointisthat( lt 6' 4 .It 1 ? 8 P 9 10 11 COSSi!SSIONER. AHEARNE: That's right, ,,i -- - g v 12 CO:CiISSIONER BRADFORD: -- That's right, I mean, 13 ' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It depends who they are. 14.... I mean, I think that it's true of )it' snot i r necessarily true of L I ,= t 16 MR. BICKWIT: That's right. Especially if you have made the deter =ination at that point that you want a , _['. , 7 -{ _e technical person, i COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: But there is nothing insultidg 3 g y-i t p 20 lj about calling somebody and asking them if they would like to be considered for the' top person, given that it's a 21 - collegial agency and no one is in a position to -- 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: No, except I would still go with Dick's view, and I wouldn't contact everybody on the 2,, 'ist. .3

~ \\ I 1 44 l s l' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, no, I think --- ~ 2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you a point 3 here, are we going to be interviewing these people or -- r . 4 , I presume so. COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That's --- f 5 it 6'$ COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: If think if we end up ti 7 choosing a single -- if we narrow it down to one or two 3 people, then we ought to, but if we are still --- 3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Noe -- do you would ask 10 [ forsomeonelikethistocomeinandbe 11, interviewed by the Commissioners? 12 ' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Of course. a . COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: There is no other way that 14 we can have that kind of a discussion to -- I think if you 15 : '6 are going to.do that, you would. be probably down to the point you are pretty sure that that's the person you want or one of two people and you want to have that discussion i, _ e. 9 ;j so you can get the full understanding of what's going on. 11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes. And if the guy says 20 ll yes, I'd be glad to be helpful and come in to see you, ,1 I'd say would you come in and talk with us about it. Firs 22 of all, he's going to want to know something more about s., what he's supposed to be doing than he is going to get in a a few-minute telephone conversation. ..60-o o .m,- ,,,,,,,,---+,-,--m,---,,---,--.--v- ..-r.u c- +

I ~ i i 45 i ? ll 1 ; C,OMMISSIONER AEEARNE: And to get the full flavor 2 of the Commission, too.

i

-I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: If he has any sense, I'm 3 bl t 4 ] sure would. g 5 y COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: If he's had it from the 1 E !.lWashington Post he's going to say, no, in the first place. 6 i 7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Not all that emotionally 8 ', upset. 9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It's in the. transcript. l. 10 j COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: No, not all of it. Just some'. 11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You did see the correction, .i 12. I hope? 13 0 ' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: No, I didn't. 4 14 ' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh? l 15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I didn't. Was there one? i 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I printed a correction ^ 3-on (inaudible). at COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I didn't see it. yg - 19 h COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I recommended --- l Il CHAIRMAN EENDRIE: Where did they hide it? 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Page 2, they have a little 21. correction box. They said what I said was: "We -- the 22 23 : situation put us in an operational mode for which the agency was not prepared and I, at least, didn't e.Npect..." 24 (Chairman Hendrie's secretary entered the rocm the Chairman for a phone call.) to ge

9 r 45 r a l' MR. BICKWIT: This had better be a pretty important 'j f-2 call. 3 CHAIPy.AN HENDRIE: I'm not prepared for a l s i sc.eedy resc.onse any more. We went through that ---

  • s 3

(Chairman Hendrie departs the meeting.) = COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Ah, well, let's see, we have, at least, i c- ~ i 9 CCMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Who is on this list? 1 1.s CObD1ISSIONER GILINSKY: -- unless anvene wants to m !~ - ' ' ~- - ~ ~ ' ~ ~ ~ ~ ' ~ - ~ ~ ~ ' ' ' " ', ~ ~ - dd'~sce'o ders'-~C ' - ~ ' ~ ~ ' ~ ~ ~ ~ - ~ * ' ' ' ' ' ~ ~ . I 12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Who is on it? Well,( 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: a ,= COM'4ISSIONER KENNEDY: All right. i 1: COMMISSIO.NER BRADFORD: I about whom I 6 know very little, doesn't seem to me to drop off it, o 3: naturally. I know nothing about him, but just looking at what there is here,'I wouldn't --- 19 MR. BICh"iIT: A lot of stature. 20 7 m CO2D1ISSIONER AEZARNE: You meani i 21 + COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 22-COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: Yes. Where did it come from, is it ---

3.,,

MR. SICIGCT : It came frcm a friend of mine named ..a h

b s 47 j ? r i 1 J 2-COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And what sort of -- 3 what did he do at --- l I 4 MR. BICKWIT: I can' t re. tily expound, it is just hisoneofthemosttalentedpeopleI've 5 that i Hispraisefor( }r convinces me that i 6: ever met. [ ]issomebcdytolookat. 7 8 - COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I suppose'we ought to --- 9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: The other one who is in j r s 10 that category, to me, is J who turns out, in fact, y 11 to be despite my guess yesterday. e 12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: [ ' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. 13 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could you say something about him? COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, just the same, the lg same tctling about him that Len has al'out( ) The 17 person who recommended him to me, coi.ncidentally, is also 18 3g with.% it someone whose judgment I have a lot 20 j f respect for, and 1e said that if there were one person -- two people whom he knew he could get, they would be{I 2., 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: And if we like iwe ~ s3 ~ 1-- + like i and vice versa? y 2,. COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I don't kncw that. As 2o.

48 4 I 9 l' between them, he ranked higher. s 2 COFSIISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, we seem to know f 3 rather more about some of these people, I guess, than 4 others. 1 Well,maybeyoucouldsorto'f( S 6' just type these guys for -- anyway, it's a. start at 7 reducing the numbers. i S - CO>S!ISSIONER KENNEDY: We now have s e P. 8 CO)S1ISSIONER GILINSKY: 9 _...- 4 _10_. _;. _. _._,___COFSiISSIONER '.KINNEDY : a =...:.:. -.. :._. .-.,;_..-. q: :_.,.,r.___._,.__ CC>SiISSIONER-GILINSKV- -U w I 2 ~ COFSiISSIONER KENNEDY: 1 CO 01ISSIONER GILINSKY: { ) 13 CO)SIISSIONER KENNEDY: [ } -- 14 CO'01ISSIONER GILINSKY-1- + 3 COFDiISSIONER KENNEDY: ) 16 ~ CO:OiISSIONER GILINSKYi~~ -- And a 17 t B COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And[W) 1e 9

  • *WP hs COFDiISSIONER GILINSKY: Let's see, I'd like to 39 sortofjusthave[

checked out because he's just -; - 20 MR. BICKWIT: Yeah, I would be happy to do that. 21 and I was -- he was COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 4.3. ~ very highly -- was recommended to me verv_ h i c_ h i v., and I guess I would like hir. co be on there too.

3.,,

MR. BICI~dIO : Where is he? __sa o

t e. 49 (- ~I l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: J-2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I'd like somebody to check i 3 out 6 4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. I guess -- I mean, 5 I realize the difficulty of lawyers --- w m 6-COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Who's k 7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: h h S ]Youdon't 9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Oh, that meanthe( f 10 11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: No, no, no. j --Whoisnow[ 12 13 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: He's on here, isn't he? COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. '5 I t COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes. 3 MR. BICKWIT: We don't know --- --_a COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It doesn't shot on here sc = that he was 'I notice. A minor l .as 20h m^tter, I'm Sure-COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I wonder if it makes sense 4_ to have a sort of --- --ss COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: There are a lot of things ..4J is doesn't show about a lot of people. 4,. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I know it. ..a:: I

0 3 I CO.NSiISSIONER GILINSKY: 1 2 s t 4' (Chairman Hendrie returned to the meeting.) ( 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: ,o-7 COMMISSIONER AREARNE: Right. CHAIRMAN EINDRIE: What's the matter now? 3 9._ CO3D1ISSIONER GILINSKY: ) 1 ~.0 - / l', 11'- ~ -~ CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: -- And that! s -just on the law side,. 12 isn't it?' 13 Co.sDiISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes, and I wonder whether L-14 CEAIRMAN EENDRIE: Is this now -- )' Well,( ) is COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 1-CEAIRMAN EENDRIE: Es that how it came cut? wait.( 1o COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Now,

) .i 1 9-i. 1 CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes, sir. -l (

    • 0,

t 9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Now, I can't -- Not, certainly in my mind. 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Nor mine, 23 CEAIFl!AN HENDRIE: I didn't think it was going to t he that way.

s s 51 .i i -L 2 CO:01ISSIONER KENNEDY: Okay, that's --- i (. 3 l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: ),in which case.vou are coinc 3 to have to have a composite group of technical and lawyer, f and --- l ( 7 COFD1ISSIONER BRADFORD: N o I t CO:0!ISSIONIR GILINSKN: I. 9 t T 10 'j j . CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Heavens no.

  • I,

~ 1 diR. BICKWIT: The answer is they could be. 13 : 'CHAIRMiN HENDRIE: Absolutely. CC:D!ISSIONER GILINSKY: That's the basis on which ---- 3,. t CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: But I wouldn't contact them 3 and say we are interested in a director. 3-c CO>DtISSIONER AEEARNE: I mean, there's a --- I i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's the point. l 3,. I COFDiISSIONER-ASEARNE: Yes. g 20 o! COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: No, I would even do that, + I think. s-COMMISSIONER'GILINSKY: Well, I --- 22 (Simultaneous discussion) La COFDiISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, v.cu know, if you are n,. 4 2 c.oine. to do that, there are c.uite a few c. ecole that I r.ight .. m

i 52 l 1 agree on this list, but I can't see them that clear. Maybe 2 three, and I don' t know because I on'.f know two of them i 3 that well, or at least have checked them out far enough. 4 But before I --- 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, let me ask you --- 6 MR. BICKWIT: You can still decide if you are 7 going to go with a technical person, and in the case of i 8 some of these people they will --- 9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Not if you go out and ask i' 10 these guys if they would like to be number one. 11 COMMISSIONER BICKWIT: Or if they would like to be 12 considere'd for it. 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Look, look. Are you going 14 to be asking technical people whether they would like to be 13 number one. l 15 MR. BICKWIT: Yes. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I assume so. g 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, why wouldn ' t you be 19 asking these? COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I think one of the 20 reasons --- --s-XR. BICKWIT: You would have to ask them both, I se think. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I cuess one of the fundamental s, diff erences is that certainly in the list of -- I guess in the f 4 L _

'g 53 1, i 1 people that,I think that we ought to go out to as.k, technical : 1 2 people, I have applied that to criterion. I guess you have .i 3 also -- you are saying that all of these legal people you 4 have proposed or people that you would.have real confidence, 5 if they were running the exercise. 6' MR. BICKWIT: (Nods in the affirmative..) 7' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: And that's the threshold 1 8 that I think we have to trust your judgment on that. These 9 are people that you would have no doubt could really run the 10 exercise.. 11 MR. BICKWIT: Well, I'm not saying that. I'm saying; 12 that at this stage, they should be considered for it. 13 ' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But you are saying that from 14 the contacts that you have made that you have reasonable 15 confidence these people, and the same with Peter --- 16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: es. I would say that. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: -- that they could really 17 18 run it. MR. BICKWIT: Yes. _1 e,. COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: There are some of them 20 whc= I don' t know, and it may turn cut that my reading 21 of the confidence is misolaced, but en the basis of what ss I've heard, at least from people in whom I do have high 3=J confidence, then the. answer is yes. CEAIRMAN HINDRII:

Gee, it mav be harder oc get 22 k

e .em

  • , +

e -e -g me w-e-.-,3,i-. .m.,< =, g--

I I e.. 54 I l' a number two than it is to get a number one. 2 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That, I think, is unlikely. 3 I think there are a f air number of pretty good people, at I 4 least, still on the legal list. l ~ 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I would think so. That 6-doesn't mean you are going to pick the man. I mean, you are J 7 not offering him the job or anything, you are just saying that'; 8 you want.to talk about it. 9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Who's going to contact the l 10 lawyers? l'1 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 'iell, all I'm asking is, except for( ) is there anybody on this list that 12, i 13 we think would not be asked to be number two? 14 MR. BICKWIT: Yes. I j 15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Who? 16 MR. BICKWIT: I mean, I know if you called;, 17 ,and said, would you like to be deputy director cf 18 this thing, he'd say, "no." I knew he wouldn' t consider 19. it. That's just somebody I happen to know, on the list, but j s 20 h I expect that most of these people would respond the sane r ~ 21 WaY-COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Certainly the technica* 22. people that I have proposed --- 23 e MR. BICKWIT: I'm sure jwould. 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: -- it would be absciutely the: --so same.

f l \\ s I 55 1. COMMISSIONER K5NNEDY: The ones that I have checked l 2 out, and I think to a large extent they are the same ones, h 3 [ I'm confident would not. h l 4 MR. BICKWIT: That's what I thought about it. l i / 4. I 5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Yes, I think.

is I i 6 '- probably the same, just judging by his sen'iority in that firm.g a i 7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Okay, so I guess what we 8 are really.saying is that most of the names we have been i ~ ~ - ~ ' proposing are ones that we would consider, thatf l c _,j_. .. _.a -f.~~-~~+--=*-------~-=-----~. +- , n:.. .W. *' ~L -~ =: <.. - p. 12 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. I mean, the other / 13 thing is --- COMMISSIONER GILINSNY: Well, cick some man like / m, 5 is he necessarily number one? I don't think so. t. 3 6-You knew, it's true of .. i but --- ~ P o 1 is not necessarily COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: number one. -,s , e i-COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: All I said is the names I I i i l have been proposing. j 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, okay. I'm not sure z.L % f is the right sort of guy, but anyway, si m COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: would probablv l= 4; be a nu-ber two. I don' t think he would be a nurber one in 4,, any event.

h i a 56 I l' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, i 2 ) 3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Yes, but the

]iswhatIhear. l 4 i COMMISSIONERKENNEDY:f I 5 y I 6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: A different thing. I t 7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Okay, t

= g -. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: There, he is d 9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. That is really quite l'1 different. 12

  • COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Okay. We are going to have 13 to make that clear to people, because for most people --- 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Oh, absolutely. s COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: -- it has a kind of l 15 P I l e, prestige attachedL.- .l.and it doesn't seem attached to -- for working here. 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Oh, that's certainly true, f 18 sure. That's true. Another plug for, I shink, when we talk i yg 1 to these people is to -- them to have -- that's why I was l 20 interested in who's going to be contacting them, because I 21 think that we have to show that there is realv sicnificance 22 attached to it. So we can't have, with all due regard to 3 4 . lfor example, I think he is not at a hich enough level 24 contact. 25 o

57 t i 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, we'11 work that out. 2 Should we go with the --- Well, let me ask this. i e, )!, 3-Should we try at our first cut, just narrow this list s 4 rather than contact everyone, have sort of each Co=missioner's 5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I think it would be a lot 6' ~ more --- 7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: J 9 ' cob 4ISSIONER AEEARNE: ( ~ - - ~ ~ -y -.... -.. ;; _. _- -.. \\- .10'. ~ /. ~ - _ - - - ......a.... /~ __ 11' CO:0_1.ISSIONER GILINSKY': Yes.. ( ~ ~~ t- ) So that we 1 12 i e 13 'CC.NS1ISSIONER KENNEDY: I don' t wish to do that 14 - until I have had a chance to inquire of people that I know 15

  • in the business, who I am confident would know a great many 16 of these pecple and get their views.

I would.just like to c.et a -- ch, a larger spectrum of views bv. ceople. i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Okay. But that doesn' t I. _- -o t I , e.. creclude our goin3 ahead and contacting these people? '!l COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: No, no. But I'd -- 20.; COM'4ISSICNER 3RADFORD:

9.,

22 T 4.3 CO:Oi!SSICNER KENNEDY: Yes, with one cuv, you know -- COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: I could do it, b"t I 23 ev

~. : j 58 t 1 wouldn't have much confidence that I had done the right thing. I 2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's what I'm saying, exactly. 3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Would it be possible to try 4 to construct a similar list of technical people that -- 5 I mean, we have spent an hour and 45 minutes or an hour and 6-

15. minutes on lawyers ---

7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Not unless you are prepared, e n 8 to take,,_ jas number one, is that right, Vic? 9 i 10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I don' t know that he'd do it! I 11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I'm kiddinc. l 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Do you want to run down the e i 13 technical list? l 6 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I just -- justatleastl 15 keep open the possibility that we will be contacting some l l 16 technical people, I'd like to --- ~ COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, or at least keep open i the possibility that we may be contacting for two positions. is COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, let's run down the 19 20 list, okay? COMMISSIONER AREARNE: Do you mean the --- 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Keep in mind that there is a bunch here for whom we don' t have --- --ea COMMISSIONER AEIARNE:

Yes, it turns out our 24 library here was a lou more replete with 25 (Simultaneous discussions)

..~,_..~w , _ _ - _ _., _, _ -. _ _ - _. _ _., - _ _ _ _,,, _.. ~, _ _ _ _ _. _. _ _ _..,, -. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _..

I 59 i I I 1 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: s ). 2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. i 3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: l m s 5 %uu 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 6' ( ~) 7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 3 - COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: i, 1 --j-9 " ___ c. ' ~ ~ ~ '. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I ' don' t think so, no". ,_ a. r-'- .u ._3. a. g... _._c, E:.COM..M. IS SIONER.GIL. INS.KY.: . _ _ l. J2.._ _. ____. _ ~ g 9 gohn? "CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: Where did he c.ome fron? (simultaneous discussions ) COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Would you put. i 13 g 6 _6 ~ COMMISSIOliER AHEARNE: _- i I wouldn't, but that's. -- } 3 you know, that's not because I know something against him, P. i e COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 20 .+ I a1

  • " ~

,e COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE:, &a = .4.3

== [ COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: So he seems - % ,,sn wa

r 60 t i. ? l' COFSiISSIONER AHEARNE: [ s anc. l 3 COFSiISSIONER KENNEDYg: 4 COS2iISSIONER AHEARNE: -- and I 5 ~ t 6 COFSi!SSIONER KENNEDY: I-would put them in reverse 7 order. Iwouldputf )first.

  • =

3 CO!OiISSIONER GILINSKY: Okay, we've got' 3 here, okay?~ i C -*. * - 0 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: was --- 1 MR. BICK*dIT: .Who' is. the other one? _1.1 r i 19

  • CHAIR!C-di EENDRIE: He was head of

,J 4. _1 1, COSSiISSIONER GILINSKY: Which investic.ation? i. CO.W.ISSIONER AHEARNE: He was head of he _i e also ran i. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The who? g r 9 COFSiISSIONER AHEARNE: l,, J. That was -- remember, c. 19 20 COSSiISSIONER KENNEDY: In other words, a series of 7 unan-icipated transients among them. ..A CO.W.ISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. )isonthelistwas that prepared --- COSSiISSIONIR GILINSKY:

Okay,

. is .e S

l i ~* i l i 61 ~ i not interes,ted. He was just down there because h.e had l 2 offered some names. l, 4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I wouldn't, no. 5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I would. 'e COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, what is he doing now? ' 6' F" 5 7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:j I s I don't know exactly where. 9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Jisn't it? i s r 10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I think that's right. i. 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That sounds right. - j 12' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: jsounds more like 13 - a consultant than anybody to run an investigation. 14 - COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I don't think that --- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I know J'and

-a I

wouldn't think he would be an investigator / manager. 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: i r 18 a 19 L ] 20 .n, COMMISSIONER' GILINSKY : I can't remember the 2 4 third one, but he is not exactiv 4J (Simultaneous discussions.) e e COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: This guy is going to have to g

i 62 i I l' g write a report. 2 MR. BICKWIT: You could get an oral report after 4 2 - the investigation. 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: jisanamethatI 5 came up with, but I don't know that I would put him forward, y 6 -COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I.think; ,is a very 7 smart guy, I just don' t know enough about what he has been 3 doing lately. Iknewhimalittlebit( .l i j 3 g a great many years ago, and he is just, really, a j 1; very smart guy. i p, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: He is. i s 12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: But I don't know whether --- 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: John? ~ 14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: -- this would be his bag (, or not. _3.. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I don't know, so I..wouldn't y <= COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: i' 1i ( ]strikesmeastoomuchofatechnicalguy. l 39 COMMISSIONER MME: I wouldn't. 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. Too much the ..s. physTeritT I think. y 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: If you could get him, i g yes,, I would put him. ,4 n,--,- m

  • ,,.--,&-,y

- ~ - -,,

E e t 63 = 7 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I think l is --- 't W 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's kind of overworking 3 and furthermore --- l l l 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes l somebody who's got to i 5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 6 sort of be, I would think, be contacted and all of this, 3 7 by these people. I think both, g ought to be 8 interviewed by these people at some point. 9-.- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. 10 = l1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I wouldn't --- 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You probably know him } 13 better than --- q 14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I don't know\\. a i 15 that well. 16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I do, I know him very well. 17 Very nice guy, bright guy, but he's just not the driving --- 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Okay. Whatdoweknowabout( CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 19 (( 20.]: He's certainly got the right antecedence. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. Where did he come 21 gj frcm? COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The name came to me from 23 24 fAsImentioned 25 b \\-

3 ',I l t 64 m 1 yesterfay, noted that he is a J 6. 2 J ~ 4 COMMISSIONERiGILINSKY: He's~got interesting tiy 5 credentials. I h COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And he was head of --- I 7 CEAIRMAN EENDRIE: Would be interesting to see if 8. he turns up on the ' list that' comes in from your contact. i s 9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. 10 . I guess I would not particularly turn I $1 to him. I2

  • CHAIRMAN EENDRIE: Let's see, this is ---

P 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: L .= i4 1; 15 CEAIRMAN EENDRIE: I have a natural prejudice against 16 people who carry theoretical physici s ts, or theore ti cal 2 f 17 physics in capital letters, L', 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Why? 19 CEAIR'GX EENDRIE: At Columbia,we regarded thecretical 20 lphysictsts. as peop1'e who are incapable of being rounded [ 21 professionals in the' field and had to stick to scribbling. that was --- 22 Of ccurse, COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That was in the narrow-cinded s3 carochial vear that vou had --- l e,. t h E t o k _ 't f r

r 65 1 subdivides 1 C.O!OiISSICNER BRADFORD: 2 them. 3 s 4 CO}S!ISSIONER GILINSKY: Let's see --- 5 COM51ISSIONER BRADFORD: a bunch of 6' patent 3.awyers. / ~ CO OiISSIO'!ER GILINSKY: Do vou know 3 L 9 CO.SiISSIONER AEIARNE: Yesj yes. - ' - ~ - - - 1 CO 0!ISSIONER GILINSKY: Would he be --- ~ 3....=. ..z_..... . z. .. m 1^.. . CO!OiISS.IONF.R KENNEDY: Who? i CO OiISSIO Fr R GILINSKY:1.' ~ 1 2 'CO.W.ISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, he could do a very 13 credible iob. _1 -4 i CO:OiISSIOiER GILINSKY: 13 1: - 9 CO01ISSIO;IR BRADFORD: It 'seems to me that short i list is ge-ting longer. 3_,, CC.91ISSIONER AEEARNE: Well, my only problem, ,s 20 21 1 22 9 C'J.NISSIO.iEP. KEm;IDY : Co we have something ---- a.: CHA!22C N EENORIE : We had something that looks _T _4.h. s.'n4_"

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7_ r i 66 l CO3NISSIONER KENNEDY: We did? [ 2 CHAI?S_L'i HENDRIE: Yes. i 3 COS1ISSIONER KENNEDY! On 4 CHAIR!!.3'* dENDRIE: Yes, I got one. This is all = 5 on, = i. 6 CO>MISSIONER KENNEDY: Gee. t 7 CODiISSIONER GILINSKY: I guess I didn't get one. 3 . COmiISSIONER AEEARNE: Well,. the-distribution -g, .svster. i ~..... - j - _1.+- c.c. .. _.. : _..:. 5:..=ultaneous. voices

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I didn't --- l 13 COmilSSIONER 3RADFORD: I didn't either. CEAIP3_UT HENDRIE: I think this was the cacer _s .t j that Peggy brought in and gave-to me, so chanced are it's _3.:. g. in your.i. box right new.. .t e COD 1ISSIONER AEEARNE: I see. _o 4 COmiISSIONER GILINSKY: Okay. I would considered 9, i _ e.. a 20 COm12SSICNER AEEARNE: 22 C6..W_. .C SIONT_R v..r'.iNTDV_ - 3. _c,. ) .z.u.r.Rs..r_. ves. C O.w_. e c.,_ u.s... . _e. ._aO o 9

67 1 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: brings enoug.h technical 2 background and competence to mee t the need, in your view? 3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 Yes. I think so. 9 4 b 6' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It' sounded like these 7 Transportation and Safety people would be willing to supply l ~ sene staff --- ~ g ...w-c COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Scme staff? COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes,,in additicn to - v. _..=. -I mean, I d'idn't get really specific with.him, bu't he said 1-12 anything they could do and it sounded like he would. ' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I'm sure they will. i 3. 3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I mean, they recognized 1 that this was something that they would --- CO:DiISSIONER AHEARNE: It probably would be very useful once this group gets started, to at least tap their --- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh, yes. And he said they ig really got it down to an art and that they -- one ought to 3 e, i sit down with them. l 20 3 COMMISSIONER AEIARNE: Because that really is their 2 business. 2s_ COMMISSIdNER GILINSKY: But I must sav, I get the ..La impression that we, quite apart from this exercise, ought to _,en touch base with then just to ge a notion of what it is they

f 4 68 .~ f} B l' do and how they do it. F* P 2 CO OiISSIONER AHEARNE: l ? 3 4 r 5 COIOiISSIONER GILINSKY: 6 J 6 COFDiISSIONER AHEARNE: That's one of them, and ,t Glenn Lunnev. i I s COFSiISSIONER GILINSKY: And who is he? If e L.. i. CO 01ISSIONER AREARNE: , nur.her two I e g i ....j ; . 10 guy. .y 11 COOiISSIONER KENNEDY: 'Now, I'just' don't - { 12 - know anvthing abo.:t. 4 COM}iISSIONER GILINSKY: Who is 1.- COFSiISSIONER AHEARNE: He 's the guy who is running --- -3, t. . but he's not -- 3 a 2 ) 5. 3 c. CO>SIISSIONER AHEARNE: Okay. 3_. 1 map t .m)would anybody out him on their short 1:. W. - ~ 14e > -~~"- Lc COSSiISSIONE.R AHEARNE: No. ,,40 r 7 COFSiISSIONER KENNEDY: I think.i

-- I

.3 s would not. He's just an awfully c. o o d g u.v, but I don't think 9,. for this job. e.: C05S!ISSIONER GI~INSKY: And who is. CO:01ISSICT: R KENNEDY: He's running the --- 2:,

f, ; g. .! s, 69 i I COSD1ISSIONER AHEARNE: --[ ], isr. ' t ha' COM>iISSIONER KENNEDY: COM}iISSIONER AHRARNE: -- He's running ) COFDiISSIONER KENNEDY: I think he's busy, if I U read the papers correctly. 6 1 1 COM>i!SSIONER GILINSKY: I see I here. i, 6. J 7 CHAIR}iAN HENDRIE: o r J t c COLD 1ISSIONER AHEARNE: No, no. No, no. j i-3 O '., CO3DiISSIONER KENNEDY: The o.ther one. -r. l,a CHAIPP.AN HENDRIE: Oh, the other one, okay. 12 COSD1ISSIONER A*iEARNE: Actually the space shuttle. 13 CO3DiISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes, [ that 's 14 right. No,notthef .) 15 CO>D1ISSIONER AHEARNE: 16 COM'iISSIONER GILINSKY: 17 3 l a i la CO 01ISSIONER A~iEARNE: I think so. 19, CHAIRMAN HINDRIE: I think that would be too close k That would be like going to[ 20 i to home. i 21 COSD1ISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes, right. l 22 I I don't knew. J i. 22 CO Oi!SSIONER A'iEARNE : 24 25 COLD 1ISSIGNIR KINNEDY: I think ,is in

r' J.p a.. 9. i ~ 70 i ~ \\ l' exactly the same category as some of those names. If you F =' 2 can get j y u've g t an absolutely top winner. 6 3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You would put him on your l 4 short list? \\= 5 Let's see, how did we come out on -, you 6 .did say? i - i Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: g 8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:j, j 9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I don't know enough about 10 ,myself. i ih COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I think the close association hsprobably--- 12 with 13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Is probably -- I'd cross him 14 out, even though he would know a great deal about the = . matter and how that was investigated,. j la i. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But still, it's --- ig COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Yes. 17. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: All right. 13 To these, I hope we can add one or more names yg frcm these NTSB people. 20 n-Now, do you want to make a --- 21 MR. BICKWIT: I'm not sure I've got it all. ss COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I've got it here. ..e.: MR. BICIWIT: Why don' t I go through what I think --- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I've got it here. ..as o e vt-- v t- -+-,eww g- ,w- --r--ae m -v------ v

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3 m v_ fa.irly roush draft. Fny don't vou crank that uo. ac.ain. I 4 Now, the cuestion is: where.do we go from here? 5 Should we wait and get more information on ceople or should 6' we start contacting some of them? C 7 COIO1ISSIO!ER KENNIDY: s Q . ~. = k 8 .y _C . - ~ 1-CO:OiISSIO ER'GILINSKY: .vg. n IC~.%,i m. - Q .) C CO.Si!SSIONER KENNEDY: a CO!Oi!SSIO!ER GILINSKY: -;g \\ ( l MR. BICKiCT: , 9 t 20 - l' [ \\, C,,,,.'01_ S S O,.._. R G a-,is-..., :

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h Y 74 1 i l' final calling then cone down, hopefully, to a list somewhere 2 between, probably a dozen-odd of who would be both law and j 3 so on, then we could decide whether it would be better if it 4 all cane from me or that we split it up. so that Peter took 5 some people -- well, so that we all took some people. 6 COMMISSIO!ER AHEARNE: Yes. 7 CEAIM1AN EINDRIE: I would recomend that rather .t 3 than --- t t 9 CODiISSICNIR GILINSKY: That sounds like a good idaa. ~ [.- . COriISSIC Fra KZ:DIEDY: .Sure. 11 CEAIM1AN EENDRIE: -- because, if I were going to i' 12 start it how, we would have to carry this meeting on for another considerable time while I wrote down just the thrust 13 14 and the kind of way I was going to say things in order that i-I not --- l .I is COMMISSIC'E2 SRAC70RD: That's a very effective l-thouc.h s I have to leave anyway. I _1 e CEAImiAN EINDRII: Yes. I e i C MR. BICKWIT: 19 s 20 ',) / i C-R,,... a-.-. . s.u c 4 I 22 (Whereupon, the Comission meeting was ended, 6:05p.m and the Cc=ission noved on to an acenda clanninc session.) 2,. .O..E.

E W April 17, 1979 The attached transcripts are verbatim records of meetings of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission discussing the Commission's investigation of the accident at the Three Mile Island Nuclear Facility. As is the case with all closed Commission meetings, (except wholly adjudicatory sessions) the meetings were recorded, and transcripts have been prepared in accordance with the Government in the Sunshine Act. In accordance with Commission practice, the transcripts have been, and will continue to be reviewed and released to the public as promptly ,as practicable. These transcripts have not been edited for possible inaccuracies in the discussion. Accordingly, it should be understood that these transcripts are incomplete, may contain errors, and do not represent formal or official Commission statements on the matters discussed therein. These meetings were closed for one or more of the following reasons: to protect the rights of an individual not to have his privacy invaded in an unwarranted fashion, (Subsection (c) (6)) of the Sunshine Act; to allow the Commission to discuss possible actions that would be significantly frustrated if prematurely discussed in public, (Subsection (c) (9) (B) ) ; and to permit the Commission to discuss in private the possible initiation of adjudicatory proceedings, (Subsection (c) (10) ). Portions of the transcripts contain material falling within the purview of the Sunshine Act Exemption 6 and 9(B) and the Commission has determined to withhold those portions from public release in order to protect the personal privacy of the individuals involved and to prevent frustration of the Commission's ability to initiate and complete a thorough investigation of the Three Mile Island accident. 1 i e a 1 ' N g (" '} 0}}

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