ML20204E611
| ML20204E611 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Braidwood  |
| Issue date: | 07/25/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#386-216 OL, NUDOCS 8608010168 | |
| Download: ML20204E611 (156) | |
Text
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OlGWAf UlN11ED STATES O
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
DOCKET NO:
BRAIDWOOD STATION 50-456/457-OL UNITS 1 5 2 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY (EVIDENTIARY HEARING)
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LOCATION: JOLIET, ILLINOIS PAGES:
8932 - 9085 l
DATE:
FRIDAY, JULY 25, 1986 l
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ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
OfficialReporters 444 North CapitolStreet Washington, D.C. 20001 seoe 101 e;.
' o' a,
(202) 347-3700 l
F' D R Anocu NATIONWIDE COVERAGE
8932 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETT AND LICENSING BOARD 4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _x 5
In the Matter of:
6
- Docket No. 50-456 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY 50-457 7
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 8
and 2) x 9
10 Page:
8932 -
11 College of St. Francis 12 500 North Wilcox
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Joliet, Illinois 60431 13 l
Friday, July 25, 1986 15 The hearing in the above-entitled matter convened 16 at 8:00 A. M.
17 BEFORE:
18 JUDGE HERBERT GROSSMAN, Chairman 19 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 20 Washington, D.
C.
21 JUDGE RICHARD F. COLE, Member, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 22 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D.
C.
23 J UDG E A. DIXON CALLIHAN, Member, 24 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
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25 Washington, D.
C.
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Applicant:
3 MICHAEL I. MILLER, ESQ.
JOSEPH GALLO, ESQ.
4 ELENA Z. KEZELIS, ESQ.
Isham, Lincoln & Beale 5
Three First National Plaza Chicago, Illinois 60602 6
7 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff:
8 ELAINE I. CHAN, ESQ.
9 GREGORY ALAN BERRY, ESQ.
U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 10 7335 Old Georgetown Road Bethesda, Maryland 20014 11 On behalf of the Intervenor:
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ROBERT GUILD, ESQ.
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18 19 20 1
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EXHIBIT INDEX MARKED RECEIVED 2
Applicant's Exhibit No. 99 8942 9042 Applicant's Exhibit No. 100 8952 9042 3
Applicant's Exhibit No. 101 8996 Applicant's Exhibit No. 102 9004 4
Intervenors' Exhibit No. 71 9064 9066 5
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT DUANE HUNTER 6
(Continued) 7 CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued.)
8 BY MR. GALLO:
8938 9
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BERRY:
9042 10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. GUILD:
9061 12 RECROSS EXAMINATION t
BY MR. GALLO:
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
The hearing is reconvened.
2 This is the 44th day of hearing.
3 Mr. Hunter, you remain under oath.
4 Off the record.
5 (There followed a discussion outside the 6
record.)
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Back on the record.
8 Mr. Miller.
9 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, some time ago --
10 perhaps two weeks -- the Board inquired as to what the 11 progress of the Unit 1 at Braidwood was with respect to 12 completion of construction.
l O
13 I spent some time discussing that with Commonwealth j
l 14 Edison Company's Project Manager.
15 It is still their best estimate that construction 16 will be completed and the unit ready to load fuel on 17 September 30th or within a very few weeks thereafter.
18 The reason for the uncertainty is that, as they 19 proceed through their preoperational tests, it's a 20 little bit difficult to predict whether every test will 21 go exactly as planned in the precise sequence that's 22 planned, so there is some uncertainty about the precise 23 date, but certainly the September 30th date is not one 24 that is subject to, at this point in time, a long
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25 extension.
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I wanted to inform the Board of that.
2 I also understand that yesterday there was some 3
discussion of our rebuttal case, and I don't know just 4
what sorts of representations were made, but it is 5
accurate that I have discussed with Mr. Guild, 6
representing the Intervenors, and with Staff Counsel as 7
well the general outlines of our rebuttal case, and it 8
is my estimate that the evidentiary hearings on that 9
portion of our case will take approximately two weeks, 10 given a reasonable amount of cross examination.
11 There are some aspects of our rebuttal case that 12 are directly responsive to evidence that has been --
13 well, all of it is directly responsive to evidence 14 that's been adduced so far by the Intervenors.
15 Some of it.is in the nature of dealing with what I 16 would call the anecdotal evidence with respect to what 17 individuals did or said during the course of their 18 dealings with Comstock QC Inspectors or Comstock QC 19 management.
20 The bulk of it, however, deals with the performance l
21 of Comstock QC Inspectors over time as recorded by 22 overinspections and reinspections of their work that has 23 occurred during the course of construction at Braidwood.
24 That latter aspect of our rebuttal case is somewhat 25 different, I think, than any evidence that has been
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1 adduced so far.
2 I have committed to Mr. Guild and the Staff to make 3
available whatever underlying documents there are that 4
they do not already -- that they have not already had 5
access to; and it is my hope that we'll be able to move 6
into our rebuttal case with minimal, if any, gap.
7 We would hope to be able to file prefiled testimony 8
for most of it by the end of next week.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
I had heard two to 10 four weeks was your estimate.
I 11 MR. MILLER:
Well, that's right, two to four 12 weeks.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And based on past 14 performance, I assume that would mean six weeks.
15 MR. MILLER:
Well, I hope that's not the 16 case.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Oh, I certainly hope so, 18 too.
19 MR. MILLER:
Well, I will tell you that some 20 portion of the rebuttal case is the testimony of 21 witnesses which essentially lay a foundation for the 22 statistics and other data that are relied on by 23 witnesses who expressed an opinion as to what that data l
24 shows.
25 It would be highly desirable, frankly, if Mr. Guild
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and myself and the Staff could come to some agreement as 2
to the authenticity of the underlying data, or at least 3
reach some understanding as to where the points of 4
dispute were, and perhaps we could limit our evidentiary 5
presentation accordingly, because I certainly do not 6
wish to string this out, in any way that is not 7
necessary, to provide the Board with a full 8
understanding of what the facts are -- what we believe 9
the facts are and what they show.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
That's fine.
11 Now, Mr. Gallo, starting today, I hope we're going l
12 to move along.
(:)
1 13 How much do you estimate will be the time to 14 complete your examination of this witness?
15 MR. GALLO:
Two hours.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, let's move into it 17 right away.
18 Is there anything else, any preliminary matters?
19 (No response.)
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Let's move into it l
21 right now.
22 MR. GALLO:
Good morning, Mr. Hunter.
23 THE WITNESS:
Morning.
24 CROSS EXAMINATION Q
25 (Continued.)
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I 1
BY MR. GALLO:
2 Q
Yesterday, when we recessed, I was asking you questions 3
and you answered my questions about the reinspection 4
effort that was necessary on some of the hanger welds as 5
a result of the AVO program.
6 Do you recall that generally?
7 A
Yes.
8 Q
Before we pursue that a little further, I want to make 9
something clear on the record.
10 My understanding is that you worked on that 11 reinspection effort in 1986 up until the time that you 12 were terminated; is that correct?
13 A
I believe I was assigned to that group during the year 14 1985, yes.
15 Q
As I recall your testimony in answer to a questio.n from 16 Mr. Guild, you were a little uncertain as to just what 17 the Comstock procedure required with respect to the 18 question of weld cleanliness.
19 I have here, which I am going to show you, 20 Procedure No. 4.8.3, Revision J, that was effective as 21 of October 24, 1985, and, actually, it looks like it was 22 implemented On November 14, 1985, with final approval on 23 Christmas Eve, 1985.
I 24 (Indicating.)
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25 I would just ask you to look at the weld Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 cleanliness paragraph, and in particular, 3.2.1.
Does that indicate that completed weld surface c
3 shall be free of paint, slag, scale, flux, dirt, oil and 4
foreign material that would impair the performance of 5
visual inspection?
6 A
It says that if it would impair the performance of 7
visual inspection -- that's what it says, yes.
8 Q
All right.
9 And is that the procedure section that the Form 19 10 checklist refers to in the first attribute when it lists 11 cleanliness of welds?
12 A
I believe the Form 19 states that the weld should be in O
13 such a condition that one can make a visual inspection.
14 Q
And the Form 19 -- that part of the Form 19 refers to 15 this particular. portion of the procedure?
16 A
I believe maybe.it does, yes.
17 Q
All right.
18 Now, as I recall ytur testimony across the last two 19 days, you testif'.e# che A it was your understanding that 20 if you were reinspecting to Revision A -- that is, the
[
21 Sargent & Lundy drawing Revision A -- that you 22 reinspected all the welds on the particular hanger that 23 was concerned; is that correct?
24 A
You reinspected the welds that was listed, yes.
25 Q
Well, would it be all the welds on the hanger or just a
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1 portion of them?
2 What's your understanding?
3 A
No.
If the weld showed on the drawing, you inspected 4
it.
5 The welds had been mapped by Sargent Lundy.
I 6
don't know whether they were engineers, whether they 7
were Level II or Level III Inspectors.
8 I'm sure one of them was a Level III Inspector, 9
because I know him.
10 Q
I thought it was your previous testimony that, if you 11 performed an inspection in the field under this 12 reinspection activity in March of '86, that if you 13 reinspected against the Revision A, that you understood 14 that meant that you reinspected all the welds on the 15 hanger.
16 Am I incorrect in this recollection?
17 A
I believe you are correct.
18 Q
All right.
19 Now, at the point where we recessed yesterday, we l
20 had followed the reinspection activity to the fact that 21 Comstock Engineering would undertake to compare an AVO 22 with an inspection report to determine if the l
23 reinspection report was valid; and if they decided --
l 24 that is, if Comstock Engineering decided -- it was not,
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25 they requested an inspection request.
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Do you recall that?
l 2
A I -- I said it was engineered.
I wouldn't swear that 3
they were engineers that did that research or not; but 4
that was the way it worked, if I'm not mistaken.
5 Q
Engineering issued the inspection request?
6 A
I -- I believe the fellow that signed the report, yes.
7 MR. GALLO:
I'd like to mark for 8
identification, as Applicant's Exhibit 99 -- Applicant's 9
Exhibit 99 -- it's a request for inspection.
10 I didn't give one to the Reporter.
l 11 (Indicating.)
12 It has on the upper right side the number 532, and 13 it's a request for inspection signed by a Mr. Cook of 14 Engineering.
It refers to -- under, "QC Inspection is 15 Requested for item," it refers to Hanger 12H35.
16 (The document was thereupon marked 17 Applicant's Exhibit No. 99 for 18 identification as of July 25, 1986.)
l 19 BY MR. GALLO:
I 20 Q
And, Mr. Hunter, do you recognize this document?
21 A
Yes, I do.
22 Q
Is that your signature on the first page?
23 A
I believe it is.
24 Q
Did you place your signature on this inspection request
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25 on March 10, 19867 l
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1 A
It looks like 3/10/86, yes.
2 Q
And what is your understanding of what this document 3
required?
4 A
What this document requires?
5 The document states, " Hanger inspected on 4/19/81.
6 AVO was not closed until 4/21/81.
Request Form 19, 7
reinspection of weld."
8 Q
Did you receive this particular inspection request as an 9
assignment to inspect this hanger?
10 A
I'm sure I did, yes.
11 Q
Let's look at the third page of the exhibit.
l 12 Is that a copy of the AVO?
O 13 A
I'm sure it is.
14 Q
Under " Description," it says, " Brace attachment flags 15 were welded in wrong location by manufacturer," I guess.
16 Is that what this says?
17 A
I believe that's what it says.
18 0
"We must make new flags and install in proper location,"
19 and then it has the letter -- the numbers and letter 20 12H35.
21 I assume that's the hanger number; is that correct?
22 A
That's the hanger number.
23 Q
Now, can you tell me what a flag is?
24 A
A flag is part of the attachment from the hanger to 25 the -- the attachment plate or wherever it is hung from.
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1 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, excuse me.
2 Before counsel goes further, a number of documents 3
were made available in discovery regarding Mr. Hunter.
4 I have a document that bears a Bates Stamp number 5
of 000 -- it appears to be 16660 and the following 6
page.
That is a document that relates to this 7
particular hanger.
8 I don't notice any Bates Stamp numbers on the 9
document that counsel has shown the witness, and I don't 10 believe that we've ever seen this document before.
11 Again, Mr. Chairman, if counsel intends to examine 12 the witness from documents now that were documents i
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13 purportedly prepared when he was employed and were in 14 some fashion the basis for his termination, fundamental 15 fairness requires that those documents be the documents 16 that were made available to counsel for the parties so 17 that we could prepare for presenting this witness.
18 Mr. Hunter is, indeed, our witness.
We've 19 presented him.
We've done our best to prepare, from the 20 discovery documents made available, to present him as a 21 witness.
22 I simply cannot prepare from a document that I've 23 never seen before.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes.
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25 Mr. Gallo, why, if you knew that Hanger 12H35 was Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 in issue, weren't these documents presented before?
2 MR. GALLO:
Well, it was my understanding 3
that the documents I'm referring to and about to refer 4
to, indeed, have been made available in discovery.
5 It is true that this particular document I have 6
does not have a Bates Stamp number on it, but that 7
doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't disclosed.
8 I'm not certain just what material was disclosed to 9
the Intervenors, but it's my understanding they received 10 the relevant information.
11 MR. GUILD:
I'd be happy to show counsel the 12 document on this particular hanger that I was given.
13 It's a two-page document.
It's a checklist with a 14 cover document that is partially illegible.
It bears 15 the Bates Stamp. number I just read for the record, and 16 those are on the document I received.
17 (Indicating.)
18 MR. MILLER:
Well, the illegible document 19 appears to be the first sheet of Applicant's Exhibit 99.
20 MR. GUILD:
If I may, Mr. Chairman, this is 21 the document I received on 12H35 and I've attempted to 22 prepare from.
23 (Indicating.)
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, we'll state for the
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25 record that the front page is almost totally Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 illegible -- I'd say that maybe 10 percent is legible --
2 and that it's meaningless, because the rest is 3
illegible.
4 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I don't have the 5
AVO, which is the third page of Mr. Gallo's proposed 6
exhibit, nor do I have the second page, which appears to 7
be another version of that same request for inspection.
8 Again, all I have is the checklist, Form 19, and 9
the illegible cover page.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, are we going to get an 11 explanation for that, Mr. Gallo?
12 MR. GALLO:
I am not prepared to provide one O
13 at the moment.
14 I don't know what the explanation might be if Mr.
15 Guild didn't receive these documents.
16 If he didn't receive them, I can only surmise that 17 it was an oversight on the part of counsel.
18 I believe that the documents are -- I'd be glad to 19 go in recess and compare the documents I have and intend 20 to use against the documents that Mr. Guild has.
21 Applicant's Exhibit 99 is, after all, only three 22 pages, and does not require a long time to assess and 23 understand.
24 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I received a letter
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25 from counsel April 23,
'86, purportedly providing me, at Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 my request, a package of investigative materials 2
regarding Messrs. Hunter and Arndt, former employees of 3
BESTCO, listing inclusive Bates Stamp Nos. 16634 through 4
16670, an NCR that relates to the same subject and a 1
5 BESTCO file on Hunter and Arndt.
6 I accepted those representations as purporting to 7
provide me the documents on which they based Mr.
8 Hunter's termination.
9 Those are the documents from which I have prepared.
10 They did not include the documents that Mr. Gallo has f
11 referred to so far this morning.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, we'll just continue O
13 along now.
14 But if there's anything that the witness needs 15 additional time.to prepare for, if your questioning 16 leads into that, we're just going to terminate those 17 questions now and we'll take them up at a later time.
18 I don't think it's fair to do this.
19 MR. GALLO:
Well, I have certainly no 20 objection to that.
21 I mean, I hate to have Mr. Guild be placed in the 22 position of what he believes to be unfair treatment.
23 I'm prepared to recess right now, compare the 24 documents we have and to make sure there are no other
(])
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1 time to look at Applicant's 99 and anything else he has.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
3 The problem is we don't have time.
I don't want to 4
make the witness come back if he doesn't have to.
5 I think that's a burden on both Intervenors and the 6
witness to require them to fly Mr. Hunter back and to 7
require him to take time off from his work.
It's just 8
not fair to have things like this happen.
9 Why don't we just continue along.
10 Have you reviewed the document, Mr. Hunter?
11 THE WITNESS:
Yes; I have looked at this, 12 yes.
O i
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
We'll just continue l
14 along with the questioning.
15 If we reach a point at which there is a problem, 16 we'll decide what to do at that time.
17 BY MR. GALLO:
18 Q
I believe you were explaining, Mr. Hunter, what a flag 19 was.
20 A
Yes.
21 Like I say, a flag is considered part of the hanger 22 itself.
In other words, there usually -- a flag is 23 usually considered a plate that is attached to either 24 Unistrut or tube steel, and that flag is what makes the
(])
25 attachment welds to the --
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1 Q
So a flag is a metal plate?
2 A
That's correct.
3 Q
Rectangular in shape, usually?
4 A
It can be square, it can be rectangular.
5 Q
Okay.
6 And it's the plate that is welded against the 7
structure itself to hold up the hanger?
8 A
That is correct.
9 Q
And this AVO indicates that at least for this Hanger 10 12H35, that the brace attachment flags were welded in 11 the wrong location by the manufacturer, and they had to 12 be -- a modification had to be made to get it right.
> ()
13 Is that your understanding?
f 14 A
That's what the AVO says, yes.
15 Q
What is a -- now, you've explained what a flag is.
16 What is a brace attachment flag?
l l
17 Is that the same thing you already explained?
l 18 A
The same principle.
19 Q
Yes, all right.
20 Now, look on the first,page of Applicant's Exhibit i
21 99.
In the section of the first page under " Sketch,"
22 there are a number of notes written there.
23 Are those your notes?
24 A
I believe they are my notes, yes.
25 0
And can you explain for me and the Board what your notes
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mean?
2 It says, " Remark hangers" -
" Remarks Hanger 12H35 3
north and south has Form 19 dated 12/7/85."
I guess 4
that speaks for itself.
5 Then it says "RDH February 13, 1986."
6 What is the significance of that date?
7 A
The dates -- I would have to have something besides this 8
to tell you what the two dates meant, but the -- the 9
first date was that there -- maybe I was doing research.
10 Maybe there was a valid Form 19 in the vault on 12/7/85.
11 Maybe we come along, we picked up an ICR, which I 12 believe we did, No. 12311, and it was picked up on 13 probably 2/13/86.
14 Q
This is something you picked up during your research?
15 A
I would say that we picked it up sometime, yes.
16 (Indicating.)
17 0
All right.
18 And then it says, "No weld inspection done on ICR 19 No. 12311."
20 A
That meant that there was nothing -- the ICR had nothing 21 whatsoever to do -- to do with the welding.
22 Q
And then it says, "Needs" -- the word " weld" is in 23 parentheses.
24 Did you intend to insert that between "needs" and
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25
" reinspection"?
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1 A
Yes, I believe I did.
2 Q
"Needs weld reinspection on hanger."
3 What did that mean?
4 A
That meant that there was soraething that ould be found c
5 someplace in research that triggered me to say that we 6
had to reinspect that hanger.
t 7
Q All the welds on the hanger?
8 A
Well, that's what it says.
9 Q
All right.
10 Then further down, it says, " Form 19 generated i
11 3/10/86."
12 and I take it that was your inspection checklist?
13 A
That was the inspection checklist.
14 But if you will notice, it was to a certain 15 drawing.
It doesn't say that it was to a Rev A or a Rev 16 0 drawing.
17 0
Well, let's examine that.
18 It says, "Per Drawing 20E-0-3031, 12H35 B Rev A 19 south"?
20 A
South side.
l 21 Q
Now, isn't that a Rev A drawing?
22 A
That it would be a Rev A drawing on the south side, yes.
l 23 Q
All right.
l 24 And when you signed " Complete by QC:
Robert D.
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25 Hunter" on March 10, 1986, was that an indication that Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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the request for QC inspection had been completed?
2 A
That meant that I had completed my checklist.
[
3 Q
All right.
4 Now, did you, in fact, reinspect this hanger?
5 A
I'm sure that if I wrote a Form 19, that I reinspected 6
it, yes.
i 7
Q All right.
8 L' ell, let me show you what I believe to be that i
9 document.
10 MR. GALLO:
Your Honor, I'd like to mark, as 11 Applicant's Exhibit 100, a single sheet which is a Form 12 19 signed by Mr. Hunter on March 10, 1986.
O
[
13 (Indicating.)
I l
14 (The document was thereupon marked l
15 Applicant's Exhibit No. 100 for 16 identification as of July 25, 1986.)
l 17 BY MR. GALLO:
18 Q
Can you determine for me, Mr. Hunter, if that's the 19 checklist recording your inspection results on Hanger 20 12H35 that was referred to on the inspection request, 21 Applicant's Exhibit 99?
22 A
The question?
l 23 0
Yes.
24 Can you confirm for me that Applicant's Exhibit 25 100, the single sheet, Form 19, is the checklist that is
(]}
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1 referred to in Applicant's Exhibit 99, the inspection 2
request?
3 A
Yes, it appears to be.
4 Q
And is that your signature at the bottom?
5 A
That is my signature, yes.
6 Q
And is this the checklist recording the inspection 7
results of Hanger 12H35?
8 A
It appears to be, yes.
9 Q
You say, "It appears to be."
10 Is there any doubt in your mind?
11 A
I have -- I have no doubt myself.
i 12 Q
All right.
j ()
l 13 Now, does this checklist indicate that the 14 inspection was conducted pursuant to a Rev A drawing?
15 A
Yes.
16 MR. GUILD:
Just for the record, the record 17 says "Rev AB."
18 I'm not sure that it has any significance, but it 19 appears to be what the reference is.
20 THE WITNESS:
The hanger was installed, I 21 believe, to Rev AB.
l 22 BY MR. GALLO:
23 Q
I'm looking under the line that says, " Details l
24 inspected."
It says, " Inspected to Drawing 20E-0-3031 1
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25 12H35B" -- that's the hanger number -
"Rev A."
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1 Do you see that there?
2 A
That's correct, that's correct.
3 Q
So that is it accurate to say that you inspected against 4
the Rev A drawing?
5 A
That's correct.
6 Q
Okay.
7 Now, as I understand your previous testimony, that 8
means you would have inspected all of the 40 welds 9
indicated on this checklist?
10 A
That's correct.
11 Q
That would have included field welds; right?
12 A
That would have included field welds.
13 Q
That would have included any fabrication shop -- fab f
14 shop weld that existed?
15 A
Not if it had a. unique number on it.
16 Q
Not if it had a unique number on it?
i 17 A
Right.
18 Q
What does that mean?
19 A
A unique number was one that -- that had a previous 220 20 attached to it from the fab shop after it was -- when it 21 was built.
l 22 (Indicating.)
23 0
But for this hanger, there were no such welds, were 24 there?
(])
25 A
I -- I see no indication where I listed it.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
8955 O
1 Q
All right.
2 So that the 40 welds -- does that represent all the 3
welds on the hanger, to your knowledge?
4 A
To my knowledge, it is.
5 Q
All right.
6 And I don't see any vendor welds indicated in the 7
remarks section, so is it proper to assume that there 8
were no vendor welds involved?
9 A
I see none listed.
10 Q
All right.
11 And the number 40 up on the right-hand top side --
l 12 that indicates the number of welds that you actually
(:)
l 13 inspected; is that correct?
14 A
I would say that that's correct.
15 Q
Now, when you told me earlier that you didn't see any 16 vendor welds listed in the remarks section, does that 17 mean that there were no -- in your judgment, there were 18 no vendor welds involved in the inspection or don't you 19 know the answer to that question?
20 A
I don't remember, as far as that goes.
21 Q
Do you recall testifying that if there were such vendor 22 welds, it was your practice to note them in the remarks 23 section?
24 A
That was usually the practice, yes.
(])
25 Q
All right.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois bu134 (312) 232-0262
I 8956 O
1 Now, do you recall whether you inspected Banger 2
12H35 yourself or did you go out with Mr. Arndt as well?
3 A
Offhand, I would say it was about the same time that me 4
and Mr. Arndt was working together, so I couldn't say 5
whether I was with Mr. Arndt or whether I was by myself 6
when this Form 19 was written.
7 (Indicating. )
8 Q
Okay.
9 Well, how about when the inspection was done?
10 A
The inspection -- like I say, it was during that time 11 period.
I see by the 3/10/86 that it was in that time 12 period.
13' Q
All right, all right.
14 Now, what is your -- tell me what your recollection 15 is of the cleanliness condition of these welds on Hanger 16 12H35 when you went out in the field to do your 17 inspection.
18 A
I said that they were -- according to my checklist, that 19 they were sufficiently clean not to impair a visual 20 inspection.
I 21 Q
All right.
22 Can you tell me whether the welds on this hanger 23 had been cleaned up by the paint removal crews?
24 A
I'm sure that the attachment welds had been if -- if 25 this was one of the AVO's that was being walked down
(])
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
i 8957 I
(
1 and -- and re-evaluated for documentation.
I 2
Q Well, do you recall, for these particular reinspection 3
activities, that craft routinely cleaned up these 4
hangers prior to inspection?
l l
5 A
I said that they -- if -- if they were given a list for 6
cleanup and they wasn't specifically told what welds to i
7 clean, they usually cleaned the attachment welds.
8 Q
Do you know whether or not they were given a list to 9
clean up this hanger?
i 10 A
I -- I -- I never saw the list, no.
l 11 Q
So you don't know?
12 A
I don't know.
O 13 Q
All right.
14 Let's put you out in the field, and you are about 15 to inspect this. hanger.
16 Try to recall whether, based on your understanding 17 and recollection -- whether there was paint on the welds 18 on this hanger.
19 A
Whether there was paint on it?
20 Q
Yes.
21 A
Oh, I'm sure it had been painted, because the hanger had 22 been put up in 1980, if I'm not mistaken, and it's 23 probably be painted three or four times.
24 Q
So you believe -- well, is it your testimony that when
(])
25 you went out to the field initially to begin your Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois bu134 (312) 232-0262
8958 O
1 inspection, there was paint on the welds, including the 2
attachment welds?
3 A
Do what, sir?
4 Q
That when you went out in the field to start your 5
inspection of this hanger, that you saw paint on the 6
welds, including the attachment welds.
7 Is that your testimony?
8 A
No, it is not.
9 Q
All right.
10 Tell me what you did see when you went to the 11 field.
1 12 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, excuse me.
()
13 I believe the witness is hard of hearing, and it 14 would help if counsel kept his voice up.
That's part of 15 the problem.
16 MR. GALLO:
Yes.
I apologize.
17 BY MR. GALLO:
18 0
What did you see, when you went out to the field, in 19 terms of whether these welds were painted or not 20 painted?
21 A
I said that they were sufficiently clean to make a 22 judgment.
23 0
All right.
l 24 But was there paint on them?
25 A
I'm sure that there was some paint, because it would be
()
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
I 8959 l
r
(^)
1 pretty hard, unless you took it down to a polished or to 2
a white-metal condition, that there wouldn't be paint.
1 3
Q so it's your testimony that there was paint on it, but l
l 4
you are making the point that it didn't obscure your l
l 5
inspection, in any event?
6 A
I said that there was not enough debris, paint or 7
whatever you want to call it to cause me to not make a 8
valid judgment.
9 0
Well, had those welds been cleaned by the craft people 10 prior to your inspection?
11 A
I don't know how many of them had and how many of them 12 hadn't.
O 13 0
Well, had any of them been cleaned?
l 14 A
Yes.
i 15 Q
How many of these welds had been cleaned on this hanger?
16 A
I said "some of them."
I don't know how many of them.
17 0
Some of them had?
18 A
Some of them had actually been cleaned with a power l
[
19 brush.
20 Q
What kind of brush?
21 A
With a power brush.
22 Q
A power brush -- does that leave the weld in a shiny 23 condition after it's been cleaned in that fashion?
l 24 A
If he used a power brush long enough, oh, yes, it does.
25 0
And you recall that some of the welds on that hanger had
(])
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois DU1J4 (312) 232-0262
8960 i
1 that power-brush condition?
2 A
Yes.
3 Q
Some of the welds -- how many were not cleaned by a l
4 power brush?
5 A
I'm sure that there were welds on hangers that hadn't 6
been cleaned by a power brush.
7 Q
All right.
8 And did these welds have paint on them and debris?
9 A
Like I told you, it probably had been painted three or 10 four or five times during the lifetime of the hanger; 11 and I'm sure that there was all kind of debris in that 12 area, since that is Elevation --
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me, Mr. Hunter.
14 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
15 JUDGE.GROSSMAN:
When you answer the 16 question, make sure that you are not speculating.
17 THE WITNESS:
I'm not speculating.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Make sure that you recall 19 this specific hanger and you know what you are saying 20 had been done on this specific hanger.
21 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir, I understand that.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
23 BY MR. GALLO:
24 0
Well, your testimony is that despite the presence of
(])
25 paint and any debris on the weld on this hanger, still Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
8961 l
()
1 the welds were still sufficiently visible so as not to j
i 2
impair your inspection; is that correct?
3 A
It was my feeling I could make a judgment call on them.
4 Q
All right.
5 Did you go out in the field and when you reached 6
this hanger, did you just conduct your inspection or did i
7 you do something else?
8 A
Did I do what, sir?
9 Q
Did you do anything different than just conduct your 10 inspection when you went out to the field?
11 A
When I went to the field, I don't think so.
12 Q
Did you earmark the hanger for further cleaning because 13 some of the welds had paint and debris on them?
14 A
On a certain date -- I'm not for sure what the ICR was 15 written for.
It looks like I wrote it myself, but I 16 cannot recall what it was written for, so it might have i
17 been written for something else.
I'm not --
18 Q
My -- I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
I J
19 A
I'm not for sure that a modification on this didn't 20 correspond to what the S & L drawing showed.
21 Q
My question was -- and I believe you testified 4
22 yesterday -- that if an Inspector encountered welds on a 23 hanger that were, in that Inspector's judgment, too 24 dirty to inspect, then they tied a ribbon around the
({)
25 hanger --
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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8962 O
1 A
Right.
2 0
-- and this earmarked it for cleanup by the craft crew.
3 Do I recall your testimony correctly?
4 A
For cleanup, they tied the blue ribbon for -- it was 5
ready to paint.
6 I believe, if I'm not mistaken, I might have said 7
the ribbon yesterday, but I believe it only went into a 4
8 log and the log went to craft.
I believe that's the way 9
it went.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
11 MR. GALLO:
Yes.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
There is mention here of ICR O
13 12311.
14 Mr. Guild, did you receive a copy of that?
15 MR. GUILD:
I'm sure I,did not, Mr. Chairman.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, do you have a 17 copy of that with you?
18 MR. GALLO:
I do not.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
20 BY MR. GALLO:
l 21 0
Well, when you went out to commence your inspection of 22 12H35, did you log this particular hanger for further l
23 cleanup?
i 24 A
That I couldn't tell you.
I've -- I have no record of i
(]}
25 it.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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(312) 232-0262 I
8963 i
O 1
Q Well, do you recall doing it?
2 A
I -- I don't recall.
3 Q
All right.
4 Now, I want to make sure that we're absolutely 5
clear on the situation; that is, the condition of the 6
weld on this particular hanger.
7 And I don't want to mischaracterize your testimony, j
8 so I'll try to keep my voice up and you listen i
9 carefully.
fj 10 As I understand your testimony, some of the welds 11 had been cleaned by a power brush?
12 A
I'm sure they had.
l O 13 Q
And do you know whether those were the field welds that l
14 had been cleaned?
15 A
I'm sure they were field welds.
16 Q
Any particular type of field welds?
l 17 A
I'm sure they were attachment welds.
l 18 Q
Attachment welds.
l 19 And some of the welds had not been cleaned on this 20 hanger by a power brush and they had paint on them and 1
21 debris, but not of the order so that it impaired the 22 individual inspection; is that your testimony?
23 A
I believe that's what I stated.
!l 24 0
All right.
25 Now, are you aware that, when PTL did its overview
(])
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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8964 O
1 inspection on March 18, 1986, that they rejected this 2
hanger on the grounds that there was paint and excessive 3
rust and dirt on the welds?
4 A
I believe I seen a copy of that someplace, yes.
5 Q
You are aware of that.
6 Are you also aware that on the same date, March 18, 7
1986, Mr. Simile went out and looked at this hanger, 8
inspected the welds and concluded that, indeed, they had 9
been, as well, inspected through paint?
1 10 A
I believe that was what he told me.
11 Q
Are you aware that it was his judgment that the paint 12 and dirt was such that it did, in fact, impair the O
13 visual inspection?
14 A
I don't know what Mr. Simile's conclusions were.
l l
15 0
You are not aware of his view of that?
l 16 A
I'm not aware of that.
17 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the 18 need to proceed expeditiously, but I think the record 19 should reflect that Mr. Gallo is leading the witness.
20 I don't have any objections per se to leading the 21 witness so long as these are not controverted facts.
22 But I believe the witness is simply agreeing with 23 counsel on factually-specific matters as to this 24 particular hanger, and that that agreement is not based 25 on specific recall but simply accepting Mr. Gallo's
(])
I Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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8965 l
)
l 1
representations that these are what is reflected in 2
documents and that sort of thing.
3 That's acceptable practice, it seems to me, unless 4
we genuinely have a point in dispute.
5 I'm not sure the witness knows whether these are 6
disputed matters or not, and I certainly don't, because 7
I haven't had an adequate opportunity to review the 8
document.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, Mr. Gallo is entitled j
10 to lead on this; and I tried to caution t,he witness that 11 he ought to answer only from his recollection and not 12 speculate.
If he doesn't recall the specifics of this O
13 hanger, he ought to answer accordingly.
14 So if he's answering with regard to this, it really 15 doesn't matter that Mr. Gallo is leading him.
He's l
16 forewarned that he shouldn't just answer unless he 17 recalls it.
18 So proceed, Mr. Gallo.
19 MR. GUILD:
Well, Mr. Chairman, just the 20 same, it's all well and good that the Chairman 21 admonishes the witness as you have.
I think that's 22 appropriate.
23 But as to this matter, the witness is not hostile 24 to Applicant.
I don't represent the witness.
I can't 25 adequately protect him.
()
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()
1 We've had a problem here with not disclosing 2
documents in discovery, so I don't know where counsel is 3
going.
4 Indeed, I think it's inappropriate to simply supply 5
answers to a witness who is not being at all hostile to 6
counsel on this point.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
No.
With regard to this 8
matter on his termination, he is, in fact, hostile to 4
9 Applicant, and he is aware of that.
That's the context i
10 in which the questioning is being put to him.
11 So Mr. Gallo can continue the way he is continuing.
12 MR. GUILD:
Please note my objection for the 13 record, Mr. Chairman.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
That's fine.
15 MR. GUILD:
It was intended as an objection.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Your exception is i
17 automatically noted.
18 MR. GUILD:
It was intended as an objection, 19 not an exception, Mr. Chairman.
I didn't state it as an 20 objection, but it is.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
22 Mr. Gallo, proceed.
23 BY MR. GALLO:
1 24 Q
Are you aware, Mr. Hunter, that on the same day that Mr.
)
25 Simile went out, March 18, 1986, that Mr. Brian Murphy
[]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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8967 O
1 went out and looked at this hanger as well and concluded 2
that the inspection that you performed had been 3
conducted through paint?
4 A
The first time I noticed that Brian Murphy went out and 5
looked at it is when I received a copy of a letter from 6
BPI sometime in April or the first of May or -- the 7
first part of May.
8 That's the first time that I knowed anybody doing 9
an inspection except Tony; and I believe Tony will tell 10 you that I was with him.
11 Q
So you were not aware that Mr. Murphy looked at the paint?
( )
.12 1
13 A
No, I was not aware until I received the letter.
14 0
Well, are you aware that it was Mr. Murphy's judgment l
15 that the paint was sufficient that it impaired the 16 individual inspection?
17 A
Not to my --
18 MR. GUILD:
Again, Mr. Chairman, counsel is 19 asking a question now that is founded solely on a 20 document that was made available to Intervenors in 21 discovery, a collection of documents represented to be 22 complete, transmitted to the witness.
23 That is the only basis for the witness' testimony.
24 He has so stated.
25 Counsel now, in the face of that answer, can't go
(])
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1 beyond it, and there's simply no foundation for it.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
3 I assume that's only a foundation question and that 4
Mr. Gallo doesn't intend that the answer will constitute 5
any evidence.
6 MR. GALLC No, I don't.
I think that's an 7
accepted rule of law.
8 MR. GUILD:
No way of knowing, Mr. Chairman.
9 MR. GALLO:
I agree with the Chairman's view.
i 10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Proceed, Mr. Gallo.
11 BY MR. GALLO:
12 Q
Did -- strike that.
O 13 Mr. Brian Murphy is your -- was your Lead 14 Inspector; is that correct?
l5 A
He was the Lead _ Inspector in this group, yes.
16 Q
Yes.
~
17 Are you aware that Mr.' Baker of Comstock went out 18 on that same day, March 18, 1986, and concluded the same 19 as Mr. Murphy and Mr. Simile?
20 A
Not until I received the letter from EPI.
21 Q
And is Mr. Baker the Comstock welding supervisor?
22 A
I -- I believe he is considered the Comstock welding 23 supervisor.
24 Q
Are you aware that Mr. Mike Mustered went out that same 25 day and looked at this same hanger and concluded the
(]}
l Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
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(312) 232-0262
8969 O
1 same as the other gentlemen I've just referred to?
2 A
Not until I received the letter from BPI.
3 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes.
5 MR. GUILD:
I assume I have a continuing 6
objection noted for the record at this time.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
8 Now that we have all those questions, I think, Mr.
9 Gallo, you intend to have this considered as evidence.
10 I thought you were just going to use that as a 11 foundation question.
12 None of these are evidence.
l O 13 MR. GALLO:
I understand that.
l 14 I just want to probe this witness' knowledge as to l
~
15 what he's aware of and then ask another -- then.ask-him ifhestillmaintainsthatthispartie61'ahhanger--the l
16 l
17 welds on this hanger were in such a condition that his l
18 inspection wasn't impaired.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, let's cut it short.
20 You are aware that Applicant represents that a 21 number of people have gone out and indicated that the 22 welds were not in a condition to be inspected, aren't 23 you, sir?
24 THE WITNESS:
I believe that that's what they
(])
25 stated, yes.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
2 Why don't you just ask your question.
3 BY MR. GALLO:
4 Q
Well, in light of the -- now, let me ask -- the last 5
person I mentioned is Mr. Mustered.
6 Is Mr. Mustered one of your fellow QC Inspectors --
7 or was he?
8 A
I believe he was the Lead under Mr. Baker, yes.
9 Q
All right.
10 Now, in light of your awareness that these other 11 gentlemen had looked at this hanger and had drawn the 12 conclusion that this hanger was not in -- that is, the O
13 welds were not subject to -- sufficle'ntly clean to be 14 subject to visual inspection -- do you still maintain, 15 nevertheless, that it's your view that at the time of 16 your inspection, despite the presence of some paint and 17 debris, that they were sufficiently clean as to not 18 impair your inspection?
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
20 Before you answer the question, let's put the 21 question in terms of:
You are aware that it was 22 represented to you that all these people have gone out 23 and said that.
24 Mow Mr. Gallo is saying:
Despite that 25 representation to you, do you still maintain that the
(])
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1 welds were in a condition to be visually inspected?
2 THE WITNESS:
My answer to you is this:
3 That the condition that I looked at them on the day 4
that I did the Form 19 or the inspection, it was my 5
judgment that I could make a call of whether they were 6
acceptable or rejectable as far as the standard that 7
Commonwealth Edison had required for the weldment to be 8
installed to.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
10 Is there anything else you want, Mr. Gallo?
11 MR. GALLO:
Yes.
12 I have heard a qualified answer.
I think I'll have 13 to probe that to find out what he means.
14 I believe that's a different answer than his 15 original answer.
16 MR. GUILD:
I don't believe it is, Mr.
17 Chairman.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I don't believe that that is 19 inconsistent with anything that the witness has said j
20 from the beginning.
21 He said he's distinguished between the date of his 22 inspection and what the condition might have been at any 23 time afterwards, and that's been consistent all the way 24 through, Mr. Gallo.
O 25 MR. GALLO A11 righe.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Well, may I proceed?
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes.
3 BY MR. GALLO:
4 0
When you inspected this hanger, did you inspect against 5
Comstock weld inspection procedures?
6 A
The weld procedure?
7 0
Yes --
8 A
I believe --
9 Q
-- weld inspection procedures.
10 A
I believe that I took the checklist -- I don't have one 11 in front of me -- and I went down the checklist; and if it met the checklist requirements, then it was inspected 12 13 to the checklist requirements.
l 14 Q
But did you -- one of that requirements was Comstock 15 Weld Procedure 3.2, the one I had showed you at the j
16 beginning of this examination?
i 17 A
I believe the procedure probably does say -- mentions 18 paint, but it also in the checklist says if it is 19 sufficiently clean.
l 20 0
My question is:
21 Did you inspect against -- using that procedure as 22 a guideline, as a requirement?
23 A
I used the check -- the procedure, naturally.
24 Q
When you answered the questions posed by Judge Grossman
()
25 and said that you -- that they were clean -- that the Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 welds on this hanger were sufficiently clean in 2
accordance with, I believe you said, Commonwealth Edison 3
guidelines, what were you referring to?
4 A
I meant the standards that Commonwealth Edison meant for 5
the plant to be constructed to.
6 Q
Well, is that any different than 3.2 of the Comstock 7
procedure that I had showed you at the beginning of this 8
cross examination today?
9 A
Was there any --
10 0
Was it any different, your understanding of that?
11 A
I don't believe it was any different, no.
12 0
So the point is that your testimony is -- despite my 13 representation as to the opinions of these other 14 gentlemen that I have mer.tioned, it's your testimony 15 that, at the time you inspected the welds on that 16 hanger, that they were sufficiently clean, including the 17 ones that had some paint and some debris on them, as to l
l 18 not impair your visual option?
l 19 Is that your testimony?
20 MR. GUILD:
Objection, Mr. Chairman; asked and 21 answered.
j 22 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
That's correct, it has been 23 asked and answered a number of times.
24 Sustained.
25 MR. GALLO:
Well, I believe that the witness
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1 had introduced an element to his answer that tended to 2
distinguish his answer to your question from the j
3 question I was posing.
4 He introduced this notion of a Commonwealth Edison 5
standard, and I'm now attempting, through questioning, l
6 to establish that it was whatever the standard was; it 7
was the same as Section 3.2 of the Comstock procedure.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, Mr. Gallo, I don't 9
think I've heard any inconsistency anywhere.
10 The procedure and what the witness has testified to 11 doesn't require a total absence of any of those items.
12 It only requires that notwithstanding that there is 13 paint or debris or anything' else there, that the welds i
14 afford visual inspection sufficient -- or cleanliness 15 sufficient to conduct a visual inspection.
16 Now, is there any different standard somewhere?
17 MR. GALLO:
Well, I didn't introduce that; 18 the witness did.
That's the point of my approach.
l 19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
That's the only 20 answer I've heard, though.
21 MR. GALLO:
All right.
22 And now I want to know:
With that clarification, l
23 is it still his testimony that despite the i
24 representations I made with respect to the views of
(])
25 others, as I have indicated in my prior questioning --
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 is it still his testimony that the welds on that hanger 2
were sufficiently clean --
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And he answered that.
He 4
said that on -- you've asked him that a few times and 5
he's already answered that, so why are we repeating it?
6 MR. GALLO:
I take it I cannot get an answer 7
to that question?
8
/ JUDGE GROSSMAN:
No.
You've already gotten 9
an answer to the question.
10 BY MR. GALLO:
11 Q
Mr. Hunter, do you recall meeting with Mr. Simile and 12 Mr. Fraser on March 21st?
O 13 A
I believe approximately at that time, yes.
14 Q
Now, do you recall who Mr. Fraser is?
15 A
I'm not sure who Mr. Fraser is, no.
16 Q
Is he the PTL Inspector?
l 17 A
I believe that Mr. Fraser might be the PTL Inspector.
l 18 Q
Do you recall going to the field with Mr. Simile and Mr.
l 19 Fraser on the 21st to look at these hangers, including 20 the one that we've been questioning about, 12H35?
21 A
I believe we went to the field, yes.
22 Q
Didn't you, in the course of looking at these hangers, 23.
admit to Mr. Simile and Mr. Fraser that you had
(
24 inspected the welds through paint?
25 A
I don't believe I did.
I probably said that I never
(]}
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j 1
looked at a attachment weld through paint in my life.
2 I didn't say that there wasn't paint on the hanger.
3 I don't think I ever told anyone that there wasn't paint 1
4 on the hanger.
5 Q
Didn't you admit to these two gentlemen that, with 6
respect to the welds on the braces, that you had 7
inspected those through paint?
8 A
I said there could have been paint on them, yes.
9 0
You did admit that?
10 A
I said there could have been paint on them, yes.
11 Q
And didn't they suggest that the paint that they saw on 12 the brace welds for this hanger was sufficient that the 13 visual inspection would have been impaired?
14 A
I believe that's what one of them stated, yes.
15 0
And as a result.of that, nevertheless, it's still your 16 testimony that, at the time you did the inspection, you 17 were able to inspect through paint on these bracing l
l 18 welds without impairing your inspection?
l l
19 A
I have made that statement on more than one occasion, 20 and it's still my statement.
21 The day that I inspected it, I considered the welds 22 in such a condition that I could make a judgment call.
23 Q
But it's clear that -- there is no question -- there's 24 no difference between us that, with respect to at least
(])
25 the bracing welds on this particular hanger, 12H35, l
f Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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=
8977 O
1 there was paint on them?
2 A
There was what?
3 Q
Paint on them.
4 A
Like I say, I'm sure that that hanger had been painted 5
more than one time.
6 Q
No, no; the bracing welds.
7 There was paint on the bracing welds?
8 A
I'm sure the bracing welds had been painted more than 9
one time.
10 Q
But that there was paint on them when you went out on 11 the 21st of March, 1986, when you went out with Fraser 12 and Simile?
13 A
That there was paint on them?
14 Q
Yes.
l 15 A
I'm sure the braces was painted.
16 Q
And the welds on the braces?
17 A
On the day -- if I said the welds was painted on that l
18 day, they were painted that day.
19 Q
All right.
20 That was when you were out with Simile and Fraser?
i 21 A
I -- I -- I'm sure it was.
22 Q
All right.
23 Now, I believe -- do you have Intervenors' 67 24 before you?
()
25 It's a single sheet.
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(
1 (Indicating.)
2 MR. GALLO:
Perhaps counsel can assist the 3
witness.
4 MR. GUILD:
I'm trying to assist myself at i
5 this point.
6 BY MR. GALLO:
7 Q
Now, you had testified previously, Mr. Hunter, that this 8
represented the results of an, I'll use the term, 9
inspection that you had conducted on March 25th?
10 A
I believe that is correct.
11 Q
And that you went out for yourself and looked at these 12 hangers, and the notes on the right-hand column indicate
_ ()
13 the conditions as yo'u saw them with respect to paint or 14 no paint?
15 A
On the 25th, yes, that's correct.
16 Q
And one of the hangers is, indeed, 12H35; isn't that 17 correct?
18 A
That is correct.
19 Q
By the way, where is this particular hanger located?
20 A
It's on 15 Line Q Wall.
21 Q
And what does that mean?
22 A
Elevation 401.
That's the location of the hanger 23 itself.
24 Q
Is this particular hanger located in an area close to
(])
25 where cement drilling was going on; do you know?
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1 A
I believe it probably was.
I'm not for sure, but I 2
believe it -- maybe -- maybe not on that day, but I --
3 I'm pretty sure it was.
4 Q
At some time you believe it was?
5 A
Yes.
6 Q
All right.
7 Now, you indicated, for Hanger 12H35, that there 8
were -- that's 40 welds; is that my -- am I reading that 9
correctly?
10 A
I believe it looks like it.
I counted 40 welds that 11 day.
12 0
Yes.
C I
13 That's the figure with the circle around it?
14 A
That's the number of welds I counted.
t 15 Q,
And over the top -- have you finished?
16 I didn't mean to interrupt.
17 Are you finished?
l 18 A
Yes.
19 Q
All right.
20 There's the word " painted" right over the top of 21 the 40 welds.
22 What does that mean?
23 A
That means on March the 25th, the day I went and looked 24 at it, the hanger was painted.
({}
25 0
And were the -- were all the 40 welds painted?
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1 A
I -- there was paint on it.
2 I couldn't say that all 40 welds were painted that 3
day or not, but I put down there there was paint on the 4
hanger.
5 (Indicating.)
6 0
Well, I thought it was your prior testimony that the 7
words " paint" or "no paint" meant that you either saw 8
paint on the welds of the hanger or you didn't see any 9
paint on the welds of the hanger.
10 A
That's what I stated, and that's what I -- that's what I 11 meant.
12 0
Well, does it mean here, then, on Applicant's -- or 13 Intervenors' 67, that, with respect to Hanger 12H35, 14 that when you went out on the 25th, you found that all 15 the welds had been painted on this hanger?
16 A
I didn't say I foudd all the welds.
I said I found l
17 painted welds.
l 18 Q
Oh, you found painted welds?
19 A
Right.
That's what it meant.
(
20 0
Had the attachment welds been painted?
21 A
On that day?
22 O
No.
23 When you went out and looked, did you find the 24 attachment welds in a painted condition?
(])
25 A
That -- I cannot remember that day.
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1 Q
All right.
2 Do you -- can you recall whether -- strike that.
3 When you went to the field on the 25th of March and 4
looked at Hanger 12H35, did you find that welds other 5
than the attachment welds had been painted?
6 A
That is what this indicates, that there was painted 7
welds on the 25th.
8 Q
Did you find -- do you recall whether or not you found 9
bracing welds that had been painted?
10 A
I don't know whether they were bracing or whether it was 11 on the hanger, but it says that there was some painted 12 welds on that hanger that day.
13 Q
So it's your testimony that you don't know -- you found 14 some painted welds, but you don't know how many?
t 15 A
That is correct.
16 0
And you. don't know which ones were painted?
17 A
I cannot remember offhand, no.
18 Q
All right.
19 Now, with respect to the welds that you -- when you 20 went out on the 25th and looked at this hanger that was 21 painted, was it -- do you recall whether or not the 22 paint was fresh?
23 A
I'm sure that a lot of the paint was fresh, a lot of it 24 was old.
(])
25 0
Well, I'm talking about the paint that was on the welds l
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 that you saw that were painted.
2 Was that paint fresh?
3 A
To my knowledge, it was fresh paint.
4 Q
Fresh paint, all right.
5 Now, do you have the' letter that you wrote "To whom 6
it may concern"?
7 It's Applicant's -- I'm sorry -- Intervenors' 68.
8 Do you have that letter before you, sir?
9 A
Yes, I do.
10 Q
If you look in the middle of the first sheet, there's a 11 reference to Banger 12H35 --
12 A
South.
13 0
-- south.
14 Now, is that the same hanger that's on your sheet, 15 Intervenors' 67, in the middle of the page where 1,t says o
16 12H35?
The only difference is one says south?
17 A
One says south and one says north.
18 That's true, I would say it's the same hanger.
19 Q
It's the same hanger?
20 A
I would say, not knowing --
l 21 Q
Well, you went out and looked at this thing.
22 Are there two hangers called 12H35?
23 A
That's right.
You got a north and a south.
24 Q
All right.
25 And what hanger did you look at when you went out
(])
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C) 1 and did your inspection on Intervenor 67?
2 A
I didn't make any notation, but I'm sure that it was 3
12H35 south.
4 Q
12H35 south?
5 A
I'm sure it was.
6 Q
And what hanger did you inspect that's a part of the 7
checklist that has been introduced as Applicant's l
8 Exhibit 100?
9 MR. GUILD:
It's been marked for 10 identification.
11 MR. GALLO:
I'm sorry; marked.
12 I stand corrected.
g 13 A
I looked at the south hanger on 3/10/86.
14 BY MR. GALLO:
15 Q
So we're all -.we're together?
16 A
I believe we are.
17 Q
You inspected and wrote a checklist on March 10th, the l
18 south Hanger 12H35, and on the 25th you went and looked 1
19 at the painted condition or not painted condition on the 20 welds on that same hanger, and then on the same day you 21 wrote this letter "To whom it may concern," and you 22 referred to 12H35 south.
(
23 Now, you say that it's now painted completely.
24 "However, at times of inspection, the hanger was
(])
25 sufficiently clean for visual weld inspection."
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Now, I thought it was your testimony just moments 2
ago that when you went out to look on that same day at 3
this particular hanger, some of the welds had been 4
painted with fresh paint and some hadn't.
5 Am I recalling your testimony correctly?
6 A
I -- I believe that that was probably the statement that 7
I made, not knowing -- not having no notes in front of 8
me.
9 Q
No.
I mean the statement you made just a few moment 10 ago.
11 Did you just testify that some of the welds on that 12 hanger, when you went to look at them on the 25th, had 13 not been painted?
14 MR. GUILD:
Objection, objection.
I 15 JUDGE.GROSSMAN:
The objection is sustained.
16 The testimony that I recall is that there were at 17 least some painted welds and that the witness could not 18 recall how many.
l l
19 Now, he did not exclude the possibility that they 20 were all painted, if that's what the question implies.
21 MR. GALLO:
Let me ask that question.
22 My recollection of the witness' answer is certainly l
23 to the contrary, but there's no sense debating about it.
24 Let me ask the question.
(])
25 BY MR. GALLO:
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1 Q
When you went out on the 25th to look at this Hanger 2
12H35 south, do you recall now whether or not any of the 3
welds that you looked at were in an unpainted condition?
4 A
No.
On the 25th, they were all painted.
5 Q
They were all painted?
6 A
They were all painted.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And do you recall that now 8
or are you just stating that because on Exhibit 68 you 9
wrote that they were all painted?
10 THE WITNESS:
That's my base of saying they 11 were all painted from --
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
From referring --
13 THE WITNESS:
Right.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- looking at this --
15 THE WITNESS:
Right.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- document?
17 THE WITNESS:
That's right, right.
18 BY MR. GALLO:
1 i
19 Q
Does this refresh your memory, looking at Intervenors' 20 68?
21 A
No, not necessarily refreshes it; just brings back some 22 of the things that happened.
23 The last two weeks I've had a hectic schedule of 24 trying to familiarize myself with my new assignment.
We
({)
25 have all kind of forms, all kind of documents that I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 have to familiarize myself with for my new job, so, 2
therefore, there could be some overlapping of form 3
numbers, checklists, so forth.
4 so it's hard for a person my age.
I'm sure, since 5
you are much younger, that you don't have that trouble, 6
but I do.
7 MR. GALLO:
Three years younger, Mr. Hunter.
8 (Laughter.)
9 BY MR. GALLO:
1 10 Q
Do you recall I asked you some questions about 11 Intervenors' Exhibit 67?
Do you remember the 40 welds 12 with the circle around it?
13 We talked about what the word " painted" meant over 14 the top?
15 A
I believe -- I remember that, yes.
16 Q
Okay.
l 17 And didn't you tell me that some of those welds had 18 been painted and some hadn't been painted just 10 l
19 minutes ago?
l 20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
That's not a fair question.
21 MR. GALLO:
Well, if the witness -- if the l
22 answer is in the negative, the witness is free to answer 23 it.
24 I don't believe that it's appropriate to interrupt
()
25 my cross examination in this fashion.
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8987 l O 1
JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, I think it's not fair 2
to mischaracterize what the witness said.
3 MR. GALLO:
I don't disagree with that.
4 However, unless we're going to stand down and get l
5 the transcript and find out whose remembrance of the l
6 record is correct, your Honor, yours or mine, I believe 7
I should be able to ask the question.
I think it's 8
appropriate.
i 9
And if I am misrepresenting, this witness will 10 clear it up in a hurry and set me straight.
11 MR. GUILD:
He will not, Mr. Chairman, and 12 that's the problem.
~
13 Mr. Gallo supplies an answer to the witness, the 14 witness says, "I'm sure that's the way it was," or, I 15 suppose so," and then counsel wants to treat that as if
]
16 it is a precise recollection, when the foundation for 17 all the witness' testimony consistently stated is that 18 he does not have specific recollection of specific l
19 welds, and he's only referring to a piece of paper that l
20 now is what he relies on for his testimony.
That's 21 exactly what he has said.
1 l
22 So counsel has created a straw man here and 23 elsewhere.
24 If he wants an answer to a question, he either O
25 should ask him directly or he should put a document in Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 front of him; and the problem with that game we're 2
playing is that Applicant has all the cards before it, 3
it is withholding the cards that it does not choose to 4
provide to the other parties in discovery, and then it 5
wishes to engage in surprises on the witness stand.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, okay.
7 Mr. Gallo, if he answered that the way you say he 8
did, it's already been asked and answered, and let's 9
move on to something else.
10 MR. GALLO:
Well, I am entitled to probe 11 further to test his last answer, which is now his memory 12 to the contrary.
[}
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, ask him what his 14 current memory is, if that's what your question is.
15 MR. GALLO:
Well, I want --
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
If you have a contradiction 17 in the record, you can point it out to us on the 18 findings.
19 BY MR. GALLO:
20 Q
All right.
21 Mr. Hunter, do I understand that your present 22 testimony is that the -- that, with respect to Hanger 23 12H35, that, when you went out and looked at it on the 24 25th, that all the welds were painted based on your
()
25 review of Intervenors' 68?
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A That's -- that's -- that is correct, as far as -- as far 2
as I can recollect myself.
3 Q
All right.
4 Now, I want you to be certain about this.
5 That's your recollection, that's your testimony as 6
of this time?
7 MR. GUILD:
Objection.
8 The witness has now said three times he has no 9
independent recollection.
10 A document was placed before him, he looked at the 11 document, he read the document and he stated what the 12 document says.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
I'm not sure that's 14 the case.
15 Is it your. independent recollection?
Having looked 16 at the document now, do you now recall that they were 17 all painted or are you relying only on what the document 18 says?
19 THE WITNESS:
I'm relying on what the 1
20 document says as the base of my saying that they were 21 all painted on that day.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
I think his testimony 23 is clear.
24 I don't think there are any contradictions in that,
()
25 and if there are, you can point them out on your Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 proposed findings.
2 MR. GALLO:
I want to know, your Honor, 3
whether, based on the answer to your question, the 4
witness' testimony is that he doesn't recall the 5
condition, but he simply is reiterating what the 6
memorandum says on March 25th or the memorandum, indeed, 7
refreshes his recollection and he now recalls.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, that's why I asked him 9
the question, and we got the answer, Mr. Gallo, and the 10 answer is plain, that what he does recall is that at 11 least some of them were painted, he doesn't recall if 12 all of them were painted, but he's willing to rely on 13 what he wrote at the time, that they were all painted.
14 Now, I haven't heard a single thing said by the 15 witness that is. inconsistent with that.
16 BY MR. GALLO:
17 Q
Is that your testimony, Mr. Hunter?
18 Now, if you --
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
No.
The objection is 20 sustained.
21 Now, why don't you go on to another question.
22 BY MR. GALLO:
23 Q
Now, with respect to -- again, when you went out in the 24 field -- given the state of the record, I want to get a
()
25 clear understanding on this point -- it's your testimony i
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1 that some of the welds were painted, but you don't 2
recall if they all were painted, but based on looking at 3
Intervenors' 68, you believe they were.
l 4
Now, I want to ask this question --
1 5
MR. GUILD:
That's --
6 BY MR. GALLO:
7 Q
-- based on your recollection --
8 MR. GUILD:
Excuse me, Mr. Chairman.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I don't believe he's asking 10 that question.
That's his foundation.
11 Continue, Mr. Gallo.
12 BY MR. GALLO:
13 Q
Based on your recollection -- and I want you to take 14 your time and answer this -- did any of the welds or all 15 of the welds, based on your recollection, have fresh 16 paint on them when you looked on the 25th of March?
17 A
I said some of them had fresh paint on them.
I think I 18 made that statement before.
19 Q
All right.
20 Can you recall at all whether there was old paint 21 on some of the others?
I 22 A
Can I recall whether there was old paint?
l l
23 Q
On some of the other welds that didn't have the fresh 24 paint that you could recall.
(])
25 A
That I can't recall offhand --
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Q You can't recall?
2 A
-- whether it was old or fresh.
3 Q
Well, you only can recall that there were fresh paint on 4
some of the welds.
5 Do you recall the condition of painted or 6
unpainted, fresh or old paint, on the other welds?
7 A
As I've stated before, I don't know whether ycu would 8
call it fresh paint, whether it was put on that day, a 9
week before, a month before or what, but I do recall 10 fresh paint on some of the hangers that I looked at on l
11 the 25th --
l 12 Q
All right.
{)
13 A
-- of March.
14 Q
Now, how did you determine, when you looked at that 15 hanger, that the paint was fresh?
16 A
Very simply:
If you can see the brush lines and there's 17 not a lot of dust or something on the paint, you can 18 figure -- that is, the concrete dust, when they have 19 been using core drills or something like that -- you can 20 usually tell it was pretty fresh paint.
l 21 In other words, it had been there less than X 22 amount of days.
23 Q
This is the paint on the welds that you are speaking to?
24 A
This is the paint on the welds; right.
()
25 Q
And you saw this condition when you went out on the i
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()
1 25th?
2 A
Yes, I did.
3 I think it was pointed out to more than one person.
4 0
Okay.
5 Now, do you recall attending a meeting on that same 6
day, March 25th, at Mr. Seltmann's office?
7 A
I believe along approximately the 25th we did have a 8
meeting in Mr. Seltmann's office.
9 Q
With Seltmann, DeWald and Mr. Simile anQ Mr. Arndt and 10 yourself?
11 A
I believe, yes, that's correct.
12 Q
All right.
13 And do you recall discussing at that meeting the 14 circumstances surrounding the inspection of these 15 hangers, including Hanger 12H35?
16 A
The specifics -- I don't remember any one hanger being 17 talked about.
l 18 Q
But the subject was the question of inspection through 19 paint?
20 A
That's -- that was the subject.
21 Q
Do you recall admitting at this meeting that you did 22 inspect through paint on tube sheet and brace welds but 23 not on attachment welds?
24 A
I don't know whether I said I inspected through paint.
(])
25 I said that -- my understanding was that I made no Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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/~T
\\)
1 judgment call that I wasn't satisfied as to the validity 2
of the weld.
3 0
You don't recall agreeing with the Comstock QC 4
management that there was paint on these welds to the 1
5 point that it obscured visual inspection?
I 6
A That is correct, I never -- I've never made that 7
statement.
8 Q
All right.
9 Now, on the 25th -- would you clarify for me:
i 10 When were you terminated?
Was it the 25th or the 11 26th?
12 A
I -- I -- I -- I believe it was the 26th, if I'm not 13 mistaken, that I received the termination letter from 14 Tom Skidmore.
15 0
All right.
16 Do you recall meeting with Mr. Skidmore and Mr.
17 Bossong in his office on the 25th?
l 18 A
I -- I believe that -- that took place, yes.
1 19 Q
And do you recall that, after some discussion -- do you 20 recall Mr. Skidmore asking you and Mr. Arndt to explain 21 yourselves with respect to the Comstock charges about l
22 inspecting through paint?
23 A
The specifics I -- I do not recall, but I'm sure that he 24 asked us what the problem was.
()
25 Q
Do you recall going out into the field with Mr. Skidmore Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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8995 O
1 and Mr. Bossong to look at some of the hangers in 2
question?
3 A
,I believe we did on the 24th or the 25th or 26th, one of 4
those days, yes.
5 Q
Do you recall Mr. Skidmore's reaction to the discussion 6
about the condition of the welds when you went out to 7
the field?
8 A
I believe he told me personally that, "From what I see, 9
they don't have any basis whatsoever of terminating 10 you."
11 Q
Do you recall Mr. Skidmore concluding that some of the 12 welds did have paint on them?
O 13 A
on the day that we looked at them, they did have.
14 I informed him before we ever went to the field 15 that certain welds they were going to find painted on 16 the hangers.
17 Q
Do you recall Mr. Skidmore concluding that, with respect 18 to those same welds, there was no appearance of touch-up 19 or fresh paint?
20 A
Do what, sir?
21 Q
Do you recall Mr. Skidmore concluding that, with respect 22 to those same welds that had paint on them, there was no 23 appearance of touch-up or fresh paint?
24 A
No, I do not recall anything like that happening.
(])
25 MR. G ALLO :
All right.
l l
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8996 O
1 I'd like to mark for identification, as Applicant's 2
Exhibit 101, a memo dated April 16, 1986, written to the 3
file by Mr. Skidmore, BESTCO site manager, the' subject 4
being Arndt and Hunter investigation of charges by 5
Comstock.
6 (Indicating.)
7 (The document was thereupon marked 8
Applicant's Exhibit No. 101 for 9
identification as of July 25, 1986.)
10 BY MR. GALLO:
11 Q
Have you ever seen this document before, Mr. Hunter?
12 A
I -- I can't say that I ever seen this before.
I
(
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Why don't we take a 14 recess while he reads it.
15 MR. GALLO:
Let me ask a couple more l
16 questions.
17 I'm not going to ask him --
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Foundation questions on 19 this?
20 MR. GALLO:
Foundation questions on this.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Certainly.
22 BY MR. GALLO:
i j
23 Q
Is it your testimony that you are now seeing it for the 24 first time?
()
25 A
I believe that is correct.
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1 Q
All right.
2 If you look on Page 2, you see that you were copied 3
by Mr. Skidmore.
4 Do you recall receiving a copy of this letter from 5
Mr. Skidmore?
6 A
I can't -- I can't ever recall receiving this letter.
7 MR. GALLO:
All right.
8 Why don't we, indeed, give the witness an 9
opportunity --
10 MR. GUILD:
Before we do that, Mr.
11 Chairman --
12 MR. GALLO:
-- to review that.
O l
13 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, before we do that, 14 let me state for the record this document was 15 distributed to counsel and the parties I believe last 16 week.
(
17 Counsel said it was an oversight that it had not t
18 been previously circulated in discovery, and, indeed, it 19 was not among the package of. document that were sent by 20 Intervenors to Mr. Hunter.
21 MR. GALLO:
Whatever that adds to the 22 records, it's there.
23 Can we take the recess now, your Honor?
24 MR. GUILD:
What it adds to the record is one
(])
25 more time there is a document that is obviously going to l
l l
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1 be a foundation for examination and we have had no 2
opportunity to prepare for nor the witness.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I'd like to make a comment.
4 Mr. Gallo, it doesn't appear to be so insignificant 5
that it should have fallen through the cracks.
6 MR. GALLO:
By counsel's own admission, 7
counsel has had it for a week.
8 MR. GUILD:
I've had the luxury of preparing 9
for your examination on lately-disclosed documents 10 during that week.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Let's take our recess 12 now.
13 Let's take a 10-minute recess.
14 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 15 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Back on the record.
l 17 Mr. Gallo, you can continue.
18 I'm not happy with the state of the record with l
19 regard to implications about other people having reached l
20 certain conclusions for which, of course, you indicated 21 is not evidence, but, nevertheless, it's in the record, 22 and in some ways, it is not a fair implication to bring 23 those things in when they are not evidence and shouldn't 24 be treated as evidence.
()
25 I hope you are circumspect, with regard to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 documents, with regard to not making unnecessary 2
references to what's stated in the document.
3 You can ask the witness if he maintains his 4-position after reading the document, but I really don't 5
like to have the record reflect matters that are not 6
properly considered evidentiary.
7 I take it you understand what I'm saying, Mr.
8 Gallo?
9 MR. GALLO:
I understand your evidentiary 10 point, your Honor, but I do not understand your 11 difficulty with the process.
12 As I understand it, it is a proper procedure to ask 13 '
witnesses whether or not they are aware of certain 14 matters.
They either say yes or they say no.
15 The implication of the question has no weight or 16 evidentiary value unless it's subsequently established l
17 by affirmative evidence that the assertion is true --
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
That's correct.
19 MR. GALLO:
-- and I see nothing --
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
But, nevertheless, there are 21 implications in the record, and I like to keep whatever 22 unnecessary implications are in the record to a minimum.
l 23 MR. GALLO:
Well, certainly if this was a 24 jury trial, I could understand your concern, but this is
(])
25 a three-man administrative panel headed by yourself, and Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 I know full well any implications that are in the record 2
will not be improperly relied on by the Board in making 3
a decision in this case.
4 MR. GUILD:
Well, that doesn't cure the 5
problem, Mr. Chairman; and certainly others will look at 6
this record as well as this Board, and they may attach 7
implications to Mr. Gallo's references.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Just proceed, Mr. Gallo.
9 MR. GALLO:
All right.
10 BY MR. GALLO:
11 Q
Mr. Hunter, have you had the opportunity to look at Mr.
12 Skidmore's memorandum that's been marked as Applicant's 13 Exhibit 101?
14 A
Yes, I read through it.
15 0
Okay.
16 Has the opportunity that you've had to read through 17 it -- has that refreshed your memory at all as to 18 whether or not you received a copy of this from Mr.
19 Skidmore?
20 A
I did not receive a copy of this, no.
l 21 (Indica ting. )
22 Q
All right.
23 Have you read the second paragraph of Mr.
24 Skidmore's memorandum on the first page?
()
25 A
I read that, yes.
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1 Q
Okay.
2 Do you see where he states an opinion with respect 3
to the question of paint and whether or not it was in a 4
touched-up condition?
5 A
I believe it says, "I did observe paint on some of the 6
welds involved and, in my opinion, the paint did 7
appear" -- wait a minute, wait a minute -
"the paint 8
did not appear to have been touched-up nor have the 9
appearance of paint being removed from the weld areas";
10 right.
11 Q
Now, does that refresh your memory as to whether or not, 12 when you went out in the field with Mr. Skidmore and Mr.
13 Bossong on the 25th, that Mr. Skidmore indicated to you 14 that he believed that some of the painted welds had not 15 been touched up.with fresh paint?
16 A
I don't remember him ever saying anything like that at 17 all --
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
19 A
(Continuing.)
-- being in the field.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
You just read that in the 21 record?
You were reading from,the letter?
22 THE WITNESS:
I was reading from the letter; 23 right.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
(])
25 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, now that we've Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 established one more time what the witness' recollection 2
was of Mr. Skidmore's non-comment to that effect, I 3
would move to strike the witness' recitation of the 4
letter from the record.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well --
6 MR. GALLO:
I see no reason to do that, your 7
Honor.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, we don't have to 9
strike it.
It's just not evidence.
That's fine.
10 But I just wanted to make it clear on the record 11 that he was reading from the letter, because it sounded 12 like he was stating his opinion, and it was not.
Okay.
l 13 MR. GALLO:
It was my understanding he was 14 reading from the letter.
15 JUDGE.GROSSMAN:
Yes.
Okay.
16 BY MR. GALLO:
17 Q
Do you recall, when you went out to the field on the 18 25th with Mr. Skicmore and Mr. Bossong, that there was 19 an Edison representative that went with you as well?
l 20 A
I believe that is correct.
21 Q
A Mr. Mike Dougherty?
22 A
I believe it was Mr. Dougherty, yes.
23 Q
Did he look at these hangers along with you and Mr.
24 Skidmore and Mr. Bossong?
({}
25 A
I believe he did.
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1 Q
Do you recall what his opinion was with respect to 2
whether or not the inspections had been conducted 3
through paint?
4 A
I believe that me and Mr. Dougherty talked, and I had 5
told him before he ever looked at a hanger the ones he 6
would find painted on that day.
7 He realized, whenever he went up to look at a 8
hanger, the ones that would be painted and the ones that 9
wouldn't be painted.
10 0
So you identified them -- you told him before you went i
11 out in the field that some of the welds would be 12 painted -- in a painted condition when he got out there 13 and some would not be?
14 A
Yes.
I believe -- I don't know what -- but, anyway, I 15 took it from this list right here.
16 (Indicating.)
l 17 MR. GUILD:
The list the witness is referring 18 to is Intervenors' Exhibit 67 which he prepared.
19 THE WITNESS:
Right.
20 BY MR. GALLO:
21 Q
Do you recall whether -- strike that.
22 Do you recall what Mr. Dougherty's opinion was with 23 respect to the painted welds he observed with you in the 24 field as to whether or not they were sufficiently clean
()
25 to permit an adequate inspection?
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1 A
I don't think I ever heard him comment one way or the 2
other.
3 Q
Do you recall Mr. Dougherty indicating to you whether or 4
not he thought that any of the welds that were painted 5
had been freshly painted?
6 A
I don't recall that, whether he said one way or the 7
other.
8 MR. GALLO:
All right.
9 Can I have a moment, your Honor?
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Sure.
11 MR. GALLO:
Your Honor, I'd like to mark for 12 identification, as Applicant's Exhibit 102, a 13 photograph; and I'll represent that this is a photograph 14 of one portion of Hanger 12H35.
15 Indeed, if.you look in the left-hand side, the l
16 marking is visible; and I'll also represent that that 17 photograph was taken by Tony simile on March 24, 1986.
18 (Indicating.)
19 (The document was thereupon marked 20 Applicant's Exhibit No. 102 for 21 identification as of July 25, 1986.)
22 MR. GUILD:
Of course, Mr. Chairman, that 23 establishes none of those facts as facts in the record.
24 MR. GALLO:
I understand as well_.
()
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, I'm sure, is Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois bu134 (312) 232-0262
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1 aware of that.
2 BY MR. GALLO:
3 Q
Do you have the picture of what is marked as Applicant's 4
Exhibit 101 before you -- 102, 102?
5 A
I have no marking' whatsoever on it.
'6 Q
All right.
But the picture has been marked as 102.
7 Do you have the picture before you?
8 A
Yes, I do.
9 Q
Do you want to take a moment to examine it.
10 A
Someone has taken a magic marker or something and marked 11 on it 12H35.
12 Q
Do you recognize this as a portion of that hanger?
13 A
I don't recognize it as that because I do not see the 14 complete hanger.
15 Q
Do you have a question in your mind,as to whether or not 16 this is that hanger?
17 A
I'm sure that if Mr. Simile says it's the hanger, that's 18 the hanger it is.
19 Q
I'll represent to you that he does say that.
l 20 A
All right.
I 21 MR. GUILD:
It still doesn't establish it as 22 a fact, Mr. Chairman.
23 That Mr. Hunter is willing to take Mr. Simile's 24 word for it is fine and dandy, but we have standards of l
(])
25 proof that this --
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Right.
Okay.
2 Mr. Gallo knows he'll have to establish this 3
independently.
4 MR. GUILD:
I'd also point out, Mr. Chairman, 5
before counsel goes any further, the only documents that 6
were made available on this score to Intervenors, which 7
I will ask be marked, to establish for the record what 8
we did and didn't have, were two Xerox documents that 9
show what appear to be two-by-two photos.
Indeed, one 10 of them appears to be a two-by-two black and white Xerox 11 copy of what is the larger photo that's been marked.
12 (Indicating.)
13 Mr. Hunter has had no opportunity to examine the 14 photo in the condition in which it's been marked for 15 identification by Applicant.
16 (Indicating.)
17 MR. GALLO:
Your Honor, on that point, the l
18 Xerox copies of the photos were made available as a part 19 of the discovery request to Intervenors, and he was free 20 to obtain the copies of the photos and examine them, and 21 enlarge them, as we have, at his convenience.
22 MR. GUILD:
Well, Mr. Chairman, that sounds 23 wonderful, but no such original documents were made i
24 available.
()
25 I'm supposed to guess that they are going to offer Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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)
1 in evidence an enlarged color photograph when I'm only 2
given, you know, a two-by-two black and white Xerox?
3 That's all that
- r. Hunter had to see.
He looked 4
at the photos and said, "I can't tell anything from 5
these photos."
6 MR. GALLO:
Guess, my foot.
7 MR. GUILD:
I'm sorry?
8 MR. GALLO:
Counsel was given Xerox copies of 9
these photographs, and any counsel would have followed 10 up, if he thought it was desirable to get the originals' 11 and do what he would have, and he's not been prejudiced 12 one iota by the fact that he didn't follow up except by 13 his own doing.
,14 MR. GUILD:
Listen, listen, Mr. Chairman.
l 15 Let's put a stop to this right now.
16 I have an objection to Applicant going forward one 17 more question on the basis of the case to support the 18 termination of this gentleman which they have not 19 disclosed in discovery.
20 Now, I've made the point several times on the 21 record; and now I object to Applicant going forward.
22 It is unconscionable that Applicant can now come in 23 and attempt to ambush this witness.
24 Mr. Hunter may well be able to take care of
(])
25 himself -- that's just fine -- but this counsel, who is Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 not a Weld Inspector, who is not intimately familiar 2
with anything more than what Applicant provides me in 3
discovery, is incapable of intelligently proceeding.
4 It is simply unacceptable for Commonwealth Edison 5
Company to either be so unconscionably inept in 6
controlling their documents that they have not made 7
available these things in discovery or to consciously 8
ambush the parties and the Board by springing these 9
documents at the last minute.
10 It's unfair; and I object to them going forward, 11 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes.
Mr. Gallo, I tend to 12 agree with Mr. Guild on this.
13 This is not the usual document that you can copy 14 and assume that the copy suggests all the evidence or 15 reflects all the evidence that's obtainable from that 16 document.
17 If that were the case here, you could examine from l
18 the Xerox copies that you supplied to counsel.
l 1
19 MR. GALLO:
I know of no obligation to supply i
20 counsel, other than what was supplied in this instance, 1
21 under the rules of discovery, whether they are in 22 Federal Court or before the NRC.
23 He was put on fair notice with respect to the 24 existence of these photographs, and if he thought that l
l
! ()
25 it was prudent to obtain copies of these, he had every l
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 right to ask for them and they would have been made 2
available for that purpose.
3 MR. GUILD:
Counsel had an obligation to 4
disclose, Mr. Chairman, that there were --
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I agree that you have an 6
obligation to disclose, Mr. Gallo; and if there are 7
details that you are going to rely on now that you have 8
not made available, I think it's dirty pool to do it 9
that way.
10 MR. GALLO:
Well, I respectfully --
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
You are not relying -- you 12 are relying on details that are not apparent in this 13 photocopy.
14 MR. GALLO:
There is no question about that.
15 I take exception to your characterization as dirty 16 pool.
17 You seem to give no weight whatsoever that, as Mr.
18 Guild is competent counsel, he could full well, after 19 being put on notice of the existence of these 20 photographs, had followed up and gotten them for 21 himself.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
No, no.
23 Why didn't you have reproduced -- I'm sure you even 24 had many copies of this document; photocopies, not Xerox l O 25 cogies.
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 l
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1 Why didn't you send him a copy of this, the same 2
way you are supplying the Board with this?
3 I'll bet you -- I would venture that on the first 4
development of this, that you had at least 20 copies, 5
Mr. Gallo.
6 MR. GALLO:
As a matter of fact, we had 10, 7
made.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
You had 10 made.
9 MR. GALLO:
For exhibit purposes.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, but the point is:
11 Why couldn't you have made copies available to Mr.
I 12 Guild?
'~' '
13 MR. GALLO:
Counsel has given me the original i
14 photograph, which is a small Polaroid.
15 This is all we had available until we made copies 16 just recently.
17 (Indicating.)
18 But I know of no duty, nor no unfairness in the 19 process, in the procedure, that we indulged in in this 20 matter.
21 I insist and still maintain that if there was any 22 obligation, it was Mr. Guild's to obtain these 23 photographs for himself.
l 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, okay.
(])
25 I don't agree with that; but we're going to allow Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 questioning to proceed on this.
2 The record already reflects the positions of the 3
parties on this.
4 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I object not simply 5
to this document, this photograph, but if I understand 6
the Chair's ruling, it's more general.
7 I object to the process going forward with 8
Applicant's examination on the basis of not having 9
disclosed these documents in discovery to the parties.
10 They were clearly asked for.
11 There were representations made to this party that r-12 we were getting what we should understand was a complete
(>)
13 set of the documents Applicant intended to rely upon.
14 We have relied upon those documents ourselves in 15 our preparation, to our disadvantage; and I object to 16 Applicant's going forward on the basis of documents they 17 haven't disclosed in discovery.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, how many more 19 documents do you have that you are going to be examining 20 this witness on that haven't been disclosed to Mr.
21 Guild?
22 MR. GALLO:
I believe the only documents, 23 apparently, that I have had to this point that have not l
24 been disclosed to Mr. Guild were a complete copy of the l
({)
25 first sheet on the inspection request and the AVO that's Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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attached and the second sheet as well.
2 MR. GUILD:
That's so far.
3 MR. GALLO:
Yes.
)
l l
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
No.
5 I'm asking you:
i 6
Are there any more documents that we're going to be 7
proffered this morning on --
l 8
MR. GALLO:
There are a number of photographs j
9 that Xerox copies of which were furnished during l
10 discovery.
j 11 I only intend in my examination to rely on the one 12 that has been marked as Applicant's 102.
O 1
13
- JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And there are no other i
14 documents, then, that we're going to have that have not i
15 been fully disclosed, and by " fully disclosed," I mean a l
16 disclosure of every detail that's important; is that 17 correct?
)
18 MR. GALLO:
That's correct.
19 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, let me just put it 20 this way:
i l
21 We have what I think is 14 examples of hangers that 22 are listed on Mr. Hunter's list, Intervenors' Exhibit 23 67, which his testimony reflects what he was told were 1
24 the questioned inspections.
Q 25 Now, we got some documents for each of those.
We l
I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9013 1
O 1
prepared, from those some documents, for each of those.
2 There are no AVO's, for example; and there were 3
other documents that I suspect Applicant had that they 4
didn't disclose.
1 5
Now, I understand counsel has only picked one, and 6
they intend to offer the exhibits that they've marked 9
7 and the examination they have conducted with respect to 8
one.
9 I don't want to have to expect that on findings 10 there's going to be inferences drawn that not having l
11 touched on the other 13, that somehow we should conclude 12 that Mr. Hunter is proven --
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
14 MR. GUILD:
-- wrong on all the others.
I 15 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
1 MR. GALLO:
Your Honor --
16 17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, do you have 18 similar documents with regard to each of the other 12 19 hangers that are in dispute?
I 20 MR. GALLO:
You mean the ones --
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
On that list, on Exhibit 67.
22 MR. GALLO:
Can I have a moment?
1 i
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Sure.
24 MR. GALLO:
Your Honor, on the other hangers
()
25 that are involved in this matter, I'm sure there are i
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inspection requests with respect to them that may or may 2
not have AVO's attached to them.
3 I have no knowledge of that.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay, okay.
5 how about photographs?
Were each of those l
6 photographed?
7 MR. GALLO:
No.
The only photographs were 8
taken of Hanger 12H35.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Whatever the implication is 10 of that.
11 Well, are we going to -- we're going to be bringing 12 this witness back again?
13 MR. GALLO:
Well, I gather we will.
14 It's unlikely we're going to finish in the next 15 hour1.736111e-4 days <br />0.00417 hours <br />2.480159e-5 weeks <br />5.7075e-6 months <br />.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
It's unlikely that you will 17 finish in the next hour; isn't that so?
18 MR. GALLO:
It's possible, yes.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And Mr. Guild, you are going 20 to have some further examination?
21 MR. GUILD:
It will be very brief, in the 22 interests of trying to excuse Mr. Hunter, who is at risk 23 of losing his current, hard-won job, if he is required 24 to either stay or come back another day.
(])
25 I am happy with the record as it stands, Mr.
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1 Chairman; and I really think it's in an injustice to the 2
witness to prolong this examination or expect him to 3
come back at Applicant's behest.
4 MR. GALLO:
Well, Judge Grossman, if Mr.
5 Guild is willing to withdraw the contention involving 6
Mr. Hunter, I have no objection to dismissing this 7
witness right now.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
We're not going to entertain 1
1 9
that.
10 Does Mr. Hunter have a case going now with the 11 Department of Labor?
12 MR. GALLO:
I intend to ask him that O
l 13 question.
i l
14 THE WITNESS:
No, I have never filed anything l
l 15 like that, no.
16 I never even --
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I just --
18 THE WITNESS:
Pardon me, sir.
19 I never even drew unemployment in the approximate 20 three months that I was off for the simple reason that 21 someone challenged the claim in the State of Illinois.
22 I don't know whether it was Comstock, BESTCO or 23 who, but, anyway, my claim was denied because they said 24 that I was terminated or terms of that effect.
({}
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And you have no -- I don't l
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(
1 want to jeopardize the witness' position with regard to 2
his employment or whatever claims he has against the 3
company by allowing the testimony to go forward, but if l
4 he has nothing pending and doesn't intend to make any 5
claims, then we don't have that problem.
6 MR. GUILD:
What I was referring to, Judge, 1
7 was the witness had a hard time finding another job -- I 8
think I'll just state that -- got himself a job within 9
the last month and is in the first few weeks of his 10 employment.
He was told he was supposed to be at work 11 today.
12 It's quite a hardship that he is missing work; and i
13 I would hate t'o see us collectively or Applicant be
]
14 responsible for Mr. Hunter not being able to keep that 15 job.
l l
16 MR. GALLO:
Well, I'm prepared to go as long 17 as we need to finish him today.
18 I will not, in any circumstance, truncate my 19 questioning.
20 I intend, once I finish questioning on the hanger, 21 to go into his statements of the reasons why he believes 22 he was improperly discharged.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, let's continue now, 24 and I won't stop the questioning.
(])
25 Just proceed, Mr. Gallo, i
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1 BY MR. GALLO:
2 Q
Mr. Hunter, looking at the photograph that's in front of 3
you, you see that little square piece of metal that's 4
painted brown?
5 A
Yes, attached to the Unistrut?
3 6
Q, Yes.
7 That is a flag?
8 A
That was -- that was called a flag attachment, yes.
9 Q
A flag attachment.
10 And the member attached to the flag, is that a 11 brace?
12 A
I believe that is a piece of an angle iron brace; right.
' ()
13 Q
And do you have the inspection request there?
14 It was Applicant's 99.
15 It's the one that -- the front -- if you look to 16 the AVO on the third page where it says, " Brace 17 attachment flags were welded in the wrong location."
18 Can you tell me whether this particular brace 19 attachment flag that's in the photograph is one of the 20 attachment flags referenced in the AVO?
21 A
Looking at that, I would say that is not the weld that 22 the AVO is talking about.
23 The -- the weld that the AVO is talking about is 24 the weld that is attached -- I mean, the part of the
(])
25 angle iron that is attached to either a beam or a Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 column.
2 (Indicating.)
3 Q
Now --
4 A
That's -- just from looking at it, that's what I would 5
say.
6 (Indicating.)
7 Q
So the -- well, let's go back and look at the AVO.
8 The AVO really doesn't indicate anything about 9
welds in terms of particular welds, does it?
10 It simply says that the attachment flags were 11 welded in the wrong location.
12 And my question is whether this brace attachment 13 flag in the photo -- whether or not you can tell me that l
14 was one of the flags that had been welded in the wrong l
15 location.
16 A
That I could not tell you.
17 Q
Do you know whether or not the AVO that you have there 18 before you included, within its coverage, this 19 particular brace attachment flag?
20 A
Do I know positively that that -- that was what this 21 was?
22 0
Yes.
23 A
No, I do not know positively that was what it was.
24 Q
All right, all right.
25 Now, it's been represented to me that this is a
(])
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1 picture of a portion of Hanger 12H35 --
2 A
South.
3 Q
-- south; right.
4 And looking at the brace attached to the flag, 5
right there where the brace touches the flag, is that a 6
weld?
7 A
That appears to be a weldment, yes.
8 Q
That's a weldment.
9 Can you estimate how long it is?
10 A
It's approximately two inches long.
11 Q
Approximately two inches long.
12 And can you tell me what the white material is over
)
13 the weld?
14 A
That I cannot tell you.
15 Q
Does it look --
l 16 A
It can be several things:
It can be dust from the 17 floor, it could be concrete dust, it could be anything.
18 I don't know what the condition was when the 19 picture was made.
20 0
Well, does it appear to you to be dust or dirt of some 21 sort?
22 A
It appears to be dirt or dust.
23 0
Can you tell from the picture whether the weld itself --
24 that is, can you tell through this dust and dirt whether
()
25 this weld is painted or not painted?
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1 A
It appears to be painted.
2 Q
Can you tell from this photograph, based on your 3
experience as a welder and a Weld Inspector, whether 4
this particular weld is in a sufficiently clean 5
condition to warrant -- to enable you, as a qualified QC 6
Inspector, to inspect this particular weld?
7 A
Not unless I visually looked at it.
8 Q
But can you tell from the picture whether --
9 A
I cannot tell from the picture, no.
10 Q
You can't?
11 A
I do notice that there is fingerprints, first one thing l
12 and the other, on the white markings, which indicates to 13 me that if a man puts his fingerprints on it, they --
14 the dust could have been there that day, it could have 15 been there months, it could have been there any time.
16 Q
Right.
17 But you cannot tell, from just the photograph, 18 whether or not this is a sufficiently clean weld to 19 provide for an adequate visual inspection?
i 20 A
I cannot just look at the photograph and tell, no.
21 Q
All right.
22 What is there about the picture that prevents you l
23 from giving an opinion?
l 24 A
What is it from the picture?
()
25 Q
Yes, yes.
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i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 What is in -- what inadequacy is there, from 2
looking at this picture, that prevents you from giving 3
an opinion as to whether this weld is sufficiently clean 4
to enable an inspection?
5 A
Just looking at the picture, I can't tell how heavy the 6
coating was or anything; whether this is paint coating, 7
dirt coating or what.
8 Q
Okay.
1 9
Do you have any judgment at all that this is too 10 dirty to inspect through?
11 A
I -- I couldn't say whether it was too dirty or what to 12 make a judgment.
Os I
13 Q
All right.
j 14 Now, when you went out and inspected this hanger --
15 and that is Hanger 12H35 -- on March 10, 1986, did any 16 of the welds you encountered at the time of your 17 inspection appear to be, based on your recollection, in 18 the condition that is shown in this phothgraph with 19 respect to the welds we've been talking about?
l 20 MR. GUILD:
Objection, Mr. Chairman.
21 The witness' testimony is that he can't tell from 22 the photograph what condition the weld was in.
23 He, therefore, obviously is unable -- there is no 24 foundation for asking the second question, which is does
(])
25 it compare to some other condition he observed in the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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?
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9022 0
1 plant.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, photographs are 3
very tricky --
4 MR. GALLO:
This man is a weld --
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- especially color 6
photographs.
7 MR. GALLO:
This man is a -- I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I don't know that film 9
accurately reproduces the color the way it actually is.
10 You know, some film picks up certain colors more than 11 others; and it's a very difficult matter to suggest to l
12 someone that a photograph is 100-percent accurate as far 13 as the reproduction gbes.
14 MR. GALLO:
Your Honor, I know of no basis to 15 suggest that that color is not an adequate reproduction i
16 of the actual color of the hanger.
17 Moreover, we're not talking about --
18 MR. GUILD:
Counsel --
19 MR. GALLO:
Let me finish.
20 We're not talking to a lay witness.
We're talking 1
21 to an expert on weld inspections.
22 If there's a problem with respect to his ability to 23 answer my question, he will tell me.
24 MR. GUILD:
And he has --
(])
25 MR. GALLO:
That's been the rule of law in Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 NRC licensing cases since they began with respect to the 2
testimony of experts.
3 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, he has so stated 4
there is a problem.
5 It would have been nice if he had had the weld --
6 the photographs to look at in advance so he could have 4
7 formulated a more deliberative view of what this is; but 8
the fact of the matter is, even spontaneously looking at 9
it, he has said very clearly that he can't state that 10 this accurately reflects the field condition.
11 That is the testimony that Mr. Gallo got; and, 12 indeed, it is based on all the witness' expertise and 13 knowledge and experience.
14 MR. GALLO:
That's not the testimony he 15 testified in this respect.
16 MR. GUILD:
Under of line of questioning --
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well --
18 MR. GUILD:
Excuse me, sir.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, I think the witness 20 has answered he can't tell from looking at the picture 21 whether a weld is in an inspectable condition.
22 MR. GALLO:
That's not my particular question 23 from this picture, Judge.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
All right.
I
({)
25 MR. GALLO:
My pending question is whether or l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 not -- when he went out in the field on March 10th, 2
whether any of the welds he encountered on this hanger 3
were in the condition that he sees from this picture.
4 That's a different question.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, we'll allow that 6
question.
7 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, that question is 8
objectionable on the lack of foundation.
9 The witness has said that he cannot derive from 10 this photograph any judgment that this reflects any 11 field condition.
4 12 Counsel simply can't ask the next question.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, Mr. Guild, if that's 14 the case, I think the witness will say that.
l 15 The question that he just posed is whether the 16 witness can recall whether the weld looked exactly like 17 this in the picture.
18 MR. GALLO:
Not exactly.
Whether any of the 19 welds he looked at on March 10th, Hanger 12H35, were in 20 the condition as it appears in the photograph.
21 MR. GUILD:
Objection.
22 A
That I cannot remember, whether it reflected that f
23 condition or a different condition.
l l
24 (Indicating.)
25 My checklist says that they were acceptable when I
(])
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v 1
looked at them on that date, 3/10/86.
2 BY MR. GALLO:
3 Q
So your opinion -- your judgment that they were 4
acceptable is based simply on what was written on the 5
checklist as opposed to your present recollection; is 6
that your testimony?
7 A
The question?
8 Q
It's your judgment that the welds you inspected on the 9
10th were acceptable for inspection purposes.
10 It's based on the fact that you checked the 11 checklist to that effect and not based on your present i
12 recollection of the condition of those welds?
13 A
That is correct.
14 I would like to call something to your attention.
15 Ke keep talking about 12H35.
If you will go back 16 to your cover sheet, you will notice that there was a l
17 Form 19, dated 12/7/85, which was acceptable in the l
18 vault.
19 For some reason, there was an ICR written.
I don't 20 know why the ICR.
Like I say, I don't have it in front 21 of me.
I don't know what it was for.
22 Anyway, the ICR was also closed on 12/7/85.
23 It could have been for anything.
It could have 24 been for -- it could have been for anything; but I had 25 looked at this hanger more than one time on a different
(')N u.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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i 9026
(
1 program.
2 (Indicating.)
What's the purpose of this --
3 Q
4 A
My point is that the condition that I looked at, it met i
5 the criteria for visual inspection.
6 (Indicating.)
7 0
You mean on December 7, 1985?
8 A
It did at that time, because it says that there was --
9 there was a checklist in the vault.
I don't know who
.I 10 put the checklist in there.
11 When we was doing the research, we come across 12H35 south.
It had been documented and put in the O
12 13 vault.
For some reason, there had been an ICR or 14 something written on it.
15 When the AVO program come along, they said, "Has 16 that been moved," or whatever was called for, yes.
17 (Indicating. )
18 Q
Did you do the inspection on 12/7/85?
19 A
I don't have a checklist in front of me, so I don't know 20 whether I did it or someone else did it.
21 (Indicating.)
22 Q
All right.
23 A
I'm sure that I did it, though, offhand.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
You are not sure?
You think
({}
25 offhand you did it?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 THE WITNESS:
I think so.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, by the way, why 3
can't you make this available, too, the ICR and the file 4
on that, to counsel?
5 Certainly you won't have that in time for today's 6
testimony; but I suggest that you do make that available 7
to counsel for Staff and Intervenors.
8 MR. GALLO:
I will do that, your Honor.
9 BY MR. GALLO:
10 Q
Mr. Hunter, when I directed your attention to the AVO 11 attached to this request, you were -- and I think I 12 perhaps cut you off -- you were indicating that the AVO 13 only required -- maybe not indicating, but suggesting --
14 and correct me if I'm wrong -- that the AVO only 15 required the inspection of some of the welds on this 16 hanger.
17 Am I correct or incorrect in that?
18 A
Mr. Gallo, during that time of the program that I worked 19 in this program, the procedures changed numerous 20 occasions.
21 In other words, one Monday we would be doing things 22 a certain way, the following Monday we would be doing 23 something else.
24 I don't know whether I ever seen any written 25 instructions to the procedure to follow in the AVO
()
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1 program.
2 Q
Well, does the AVO attached to this inspection request 3
give you any guidance one way or the other on this 4
point?
5 A
The AVO tells what the problem was at the time of 6
4/15/81.
7 Q
Does it indicates to you how many of the welds you 8
should inspect in the hangers?
9 A
I don't believe it indicates anything as far as 10 weldment.
11 Q
All right, all right.
12 That was my question.
Thank you.
13 Now, Mr. Hunter, if you go to the checklist dated 14 March 10, 1986, then I have a hypothetical question for 15 you based on your experience as a Weld Inspector.
16 If an Inspector came upon a weld, during the course 17 of inspection, that was painted and dirty, to the point 18 where it impaired the inspection, but, nevertheless, 19 marked the checklist acceptable on this matter, would 20 that be a document falsification, in your judgment?
21 A
In a hypothetical answer, yes --
22 Q
Yes.
23 A
-- that would be a falsification.
24 I believe it also had been established -- you
({}
25 called me an expert or something.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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(
1 I believe it's been established by documents that I 2
state -- I do not claim to a hundred percent in 3
performing visual weld accept rpject criteria; but I do 4
believe that I have -- I do not believe I have ever 5
accepted an unsound structural weld at the Braidwood 6
jobsite.
7 Q
Yes.
You made that point repeatedly during the 8
examination.
9 When you say " structural weld," do you mean the 10 same thing as an attachment weld?
11 A
When I say " structural," I mean whether it actually met 12 the AWS Dl.1 Code.
O 13 (Indicating.)
\\
I 14 Q
So the term -- when you say " structural weld," it makes 15 no difference whether it's a brace weld or an attachment 16 weld or any other weld?
17 A
When I say structural sound or structural acceptable, I 18 mean that the weldment itself does meet AWS Dl.1 Code.
19 Q
Do you look at an attachment weld -- has it been your 20 practice to look at an attachment weld a little more l
21 closely than, say, a brace weld?
22 A
I personally di.d.
23 I don't know whether you should or not, but I 24 personally did.
25 0
And is that because you consider that one of the more
{}
l Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9030 0
1 important welds in terms of the number of welds on a 2
hanger?
3 A
According to the weld number on the hanger, not 4
necessarily, but --
5 Q
Well, according to -- in relation to the rest of the 6
welds on the hanger?
7 I'm sorry.
8 A
In relations to the unit itself or the hanger itself, I 9
considered the attachment welds the main attachments of 10 any unit.
11 Q
Then isn't it a fact, when you did the inspection of 12 12H35 on March 10th, that'you really focused on the 13 attachment welds and sloughed off on the others and 14 didn't bother to clean them when you did your 15 inspection?
l 16 A
I don't know whether I sloughed off or what.
17 Q
You don't know whether or not you did that?
18 A
I don't know whether I -- that was --
P 19 Q
Mr. Hunter, you testified, in answer to several 20 questions from Mr. Guild, about the -- oh, the reasons that you think 'ou were wrongfully terminated by 21 y
22 Comstock -- or BESTCO, I should say.
23 What is the -- your letter indicates that you were 24 wrongfully terminated, just period.
You don't suggest
(])
25 who did the termination.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9031 O
1 Well, you thought the --
2 A
I asked -- I asked questions.
I didn't -- I didn't make 3
any statements.
I believe I asked questions.
4 Q
All right.
5 But you've testified yesterday that -- I believe 6
that you felt that you were terminated because you went 7
to the NRC.
8 Am I recalling that correctly?
9 THE WITNESS:
Just -- I don't have that in 10 front of me.
Just a moment, 11 MR. GALLO:
Sure, take your time.
12 MR. MILLER:
Just a second.
O 13 MR. GUILD:
Can I make available a copy to 14 the witness, counsel?
Can I make it available?
15 MR. GALLO:
Yes, go ahead.
16 MR. GUILD:
Here you go.
17 (Indicating.)
18 THE WITNESS:
I've got that, I've got that.
19 A
The first item was my termination.
I asked the 20 question -- or I -- I state that I was shown no letter 21 of termination; and I believe Mr. Peterson from the 22 jobsite, Quality First, informed me over the phone that 23 the small paper that Mr. -- small form that Mr. Skidmore 24 filled out stated that that was the letter.
25 The letter also stated that I was eligible for
(]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 rehire from brand examination testing service.
2 BY MR. GALLO:
3 Q
But in Paragraph 2, you indicate that -- that -- well, 4
let me ask the question then.
5 Are you indicating in Paragraph 2 that you were 6
terminated improperly because of giving a deposition to 7
the NRC?
e 8
A I asked Quality First was this not a way of getting back 9
at people who had given a deposition, yes.
10 0
Well --
11 A
Mr. Peterson replied on the phone that he would check l
12 into this, and to the best of his ability, he couldn't 13 find anything that -- pertaining to the people that had 14 given a deposition or visited the NRC people.
I 15 J UDGE.GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Mr. Hunter, just 16 answer the questions that Mr. Gallo asks you.
17 THE WITNESS:
All right.
Thank you.
18 BY MR. GALLO:
19 Q
Yes.
20 I want to know whether it's your present position 21 that you believe you were fired because, No. 1, you went 22 to the NRC on March 29, 1985.
23 A
Do I believe that was the reason?
24 0
One of the reasons.
({)
25 A
I'd say that that could have been.
I don't say -- I I
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9033 O
1 don't know whether it was or not.
l 2
0 Well, are you maintaining that position?
3 A
No.
I asked the question.
4 Q
I see.
5 You just asked the question?
6 A
I asked the question to Quality First; right.
7 Q
All right.
8 Are you maintaining that one of the reasons you 9
were fired was because you had given the deposition that 10 was noticed up by the Applicant in February and --
11 January and February of 1986?
l 12 A
The question?
13 Q
Yes.
=
14 Are you maintaining that one of the reasons you 15 were fired was because you gave a deposition on January 16 28th and February 25, 1986?
17 A
I asked the question to Quality First.
Me and Mr.
18 Peterson sit down and had a short talk before I left the 19 jobsite.
Me and him exchanged views of what had
(
20 happened and what hadn't happened, and I told Mr.
i 21 Peterson that I would send him a letter asking some of 22 the questions that I did not have the answer to or he 23 didn't have the answer to.
24 Q
So you were asking the question.
(])
25 Well, are you maintaining today that was one of the Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
a Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9034 O
1 reasons you were fired?
2 A
I asked the question.
I --
3 MR. GALLO:
Well, can you answer my question 4
yes or no and then explain it?
5 MR. GUILD:
He is trying to answer the 6
question, counsel.
7 BY MR. GALLO:
8 0
Are you maintaining today --
9 MR. GUILD:
What does " maintaining" mean, Mr.
10 Chairman?
11 If counsel has a legalistic notion in mind, I
~
12 be1ieve the question is vague and objectionable on that O
13 ground.
14 MR. GALLO:
I'll restate it, I'll restate it.
15 It's clear to Mr. Guild his witness is in trouble 16 and he's doing everything he can to --
l 17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Let's get one at a time here.
18 Now, I understand the witness is saying that he 19 doesn't know, and I believe he had asked the company 20 whether that was one of the reasons.
21 MR. GALLO:
And my question was that I was 22 trying -- that is pending, I should say, is he stating 23 today that that was one of the reasons that he was 24 terminated.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
The questions are
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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()
1 whether you are alleging that that is one of the reasons 2
or whether you don't know and are suggesting that it 3
could be a reason.
4 THE WITNESS:
I never made any allegations 5
about anything about my termination, sir.
6 I just asked the question to the people that you 7
talked to when you exit the jobsite.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, now, you brought those 9
matters up.
10 Did you think that that could have been a reason?
i 11 THE WITNESS:
At that time, I'm sure I --
12.
I -- I was wondering what was the reason I was being O
13 terminated.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Now, with regard to each of l
15 these specific items that you brought up in your letter, 16 were you saying that, in your opinion, that might have 17 been a reason the company terminated you?
18 THE WITNESS:
I was asking the question; and 19 I'm sure that that was the reason, yes.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
You are sure that the reason 21 you brcught it up was you thought it might have been a 22 reason why the company terminated you?
23 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
But you don't know for sure?
25 THE WITNESS:
I don't know anyt hing for sure,
()
1 Sonntaq Reoorting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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(
l no.
2 BY MR. GALLO:
3 Q
You said that you referred these questions to Quality 4
First.
5 A
That's true.
6 Q
Now, do you know whether or not Quality First looked 7
into these questions for you?
8 A
Mr. Peterson informed me on more than one occasion by 9
phone that the allegations had been looked into, yes.
10 Q
Did he explain to you -- did he address -- did he 1
11 explain to you, when he talked to you, Item No. 2 in 12 your letter; that is, whether or not you had been
. ()
13 terminated because of giving a deposition and talking to 14 the NRC?
15 A
I believe he said his investigation found nothing 16 whatsoever as farRas the problem with giving a 17 deposition or visiting the NCR people.
18 (Indicating.)
19 Q
And what was your response to Mr. Peterson when he told 20 you that?
21 A
I do not have a copy of what I said.
22 I'm sure I said, "Well, thank you.
I appreciate 23 you looking into it."
(
24 I'm sure I told him something on that order.
25 Q
Did you accept that judgment by Mr. Peterson?
(]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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("%
V 1
A I am sure I did.
2 Q
Do you accept it today?
t 3
A Well, yes.
4 Q'
Now, Mr. Hunter, I think you testified yesterday that 5
one of the reasons you were in favor of the union was 6
because you or other QC Inspectors would be represented 7
as a result of any controversy or argument with Comstock 8
management.
2 9
Do you recall that?
10 A
I believe I stated that, yes.
l 11 Q
All right.
l 12 Were you represented by a union steward in 13 connection with the discussions you had with Mr.
14 Skidmore on March 25th of 1986?
15 A
Yes.
Mr. Larry.Bossong was present.
16 Q
He was the steward?
17 A
He was the steward for Local 306, Braidwood station.
18 Q
Did you discuss this matter with him with respect to 19 your termination?
20 A
With respect to my termination?
21 Well, it -- when I talked to Mr. Bossong, I didn't 22 know that I had been terminated.
/
23 Q
Well, after it became apparent to you that you had, did 24 you discuss the matter with Mr. Bossong?
()
25 A
Not that I can recall.
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Q
Did you seek to file a grievance on the matter?
2 A
No, I did not file a grievance.
3 Q
Did Mr. Bossong counsel you in any way on March 25th 4
with respect to your rights as a union member?
l 5
A I believe he did.
6 0
What did he tell you?
7 A
He said, "If you want to take a termination and fight 8
it, we will."
I said, "No.
If that is the feeling that 9
people have about my integrity, my honesty, then I don't 10 need to be here."
11 Q
And have you filed any type of claim asserting 12 harassment with the Department of Labor?
13 A
No, I have not.
14 Q
Have you gone to the NRC itself with respect to the 15 matter of your termination?
16 A
No, I have not.
17 MR. GALLO:
I have nothing further.
j 18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Fine.
19 Mr. Berry.
20 MR. BERRY:
Your Honor, if I could have two 21 minutes, I can review my notes and shorten things.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Sure.
23 Why don't we take a five-minute recess.
24 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 25 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
(])
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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l 9039
(
l JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Back on the record.
2 Mr. Gallo would like to introduce Applicant's 3
Exhibit 99 and Exhibit 100.
4 MR. GUILD:
I have no objection to 100.
5 It doesn't bear a Bates Stamp number, Mr. Chairman.
6 It is in slightly different form from the form I 7
got, but not in any material respects.
8 I have no objection to 100.
It's been 9
authenticated by Mr. Hunter.
10 I do object to 99 coming in.
11 It wasn't disclosed in any intelligible form in 12 discovery.
I don't know that it represents a complete 13 copy of the documents reflecting this hanger.
14 I believe it's -- aside from the fact that Mr.
15 Hunter can say spontaneously on the witness stand that 16 it's his signature on one page of the document, it's not 17 otherwise authenticated; primarily, though, on the basis 18 that it wasn't disclosed in discovery.
19 I don't know what value it has, frankly, in 20 evidence, but we would object to it being received at 21 this time.
22 MR. GALLO:
Well, your Honor, the objection is 23 not well founded.
24 The witness has authenticated this document to the 25 same extent that he did the checklist, and any problem
()
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1 on discovery certainly doesn't affect its admissibility.
2 MR. GUILD:
It does, indeed, Mr. Chairman.
3 I don't know what it's going to be relied upon for 4
in findings, if anything -- perhaps nothing -- but I 5
don't think I should be put to the risk that it's going 6
to come back later because Mr. Gallo will think of 7
something ingenious to use it for.
8 It wasn't disclosed in discovery.
It's not i
9 properly admissible in evidence.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
What is the relevance of 11 this, Mr. Gallo?
i 12 MR. GALLO:
This document is the initial
(
13 document that triggered the reinspection by Mr. Hunter 14 of the hanger that has been the subject of all the 15 questions.
16 It's one of the most material documents that have 17 been introduced into this proceeding.
I 18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes.
19 But what I'm saying is:
20 What does the document itself contribute to the l
21 record?
22 MR. GALLO:
It gives content to his 23 examination that he conducted.
These remarks are his.
24 It shows his research, it shows what he did and what he
(])
25 didn't do, and it has the AVO which indicates -- which Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 i
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9041 0
1 he's testified to -- which indicates the extent of the 2
problem with respect to the modification, and it's part 3
and parcel with the checklist and it's a companion 4
document, and it's relevant for that reason.
5 It's just as relevant as the checklist itself.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Guild, we're going to 7
let it in; but, Mr. Gallo, we'll remind you, we want the 8
complete file, including the file on the ICR, but if 9
there are any other documents associated with this 10 hanger, we would like all of that given to counsel.
11 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, may I inquire 12 through the Chair whether Applicant will state what the 13 reason was for the failure to disclose this document in l
14 discovery?
15 JUDGE.GROSSMAN:
Well, I think Mr. Gallo said 16 he doesn't know.
17 MR. GUILD:
Well, we now have a battery of 18 lawyers here for the Applicant.
19 Perhaps someone other than Mr. Gallo might state.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Do we have a collective we 21 don't know?
l 22 I don't think we have to go any further than that.
l 23 I think all the documents really ought to be l
24 disclosed, but --
(])
25 MR. GALLO:
I certainly don't dispute that Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9042 0
1 premise, your Honor.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay, fine.
Those two, 3
the --
4 MR. GALLO:
The only matter I've previously 5
had a different view of was the obligation to get the 6
photograph.
7 As to the other documents, if any exist, he ought i
8 to have them.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, the documents are 10 admitted; and we'll stand on the proposition that any 11 details that are going to be used from any document 12 ought to be disclosed.
I 13 (The documents were thereupon received 14 into evidence as Applicant's Exhibits t
l 15 Nos. 99 and 100.)
i 16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Berry.
17 MR. BERRY:
No objection to the proferring of 18 the exhibits.
19 Good morning, Mr. Hunter.
I'm Gregory Berry.
20 We've met before at your deposition.
21 THE WITNESS:
Correct.
22 CROSS EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. BERRY:
24 Q
Mr. Hunter, let's return to the subject of the status O
25 regores.
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 l
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9043 4
.O 1
You were asked some questions about that by Mr.
2
, Guild and Mr. Gallo.
3 Had you heard, prior to your talking with Mr.
4 Stout, that the status reports the Inspectors was 5
filling out were being used to track the Inspectors' 6
production?
Had you ever heard that before?
7 A
The rumors probably were circulated before that, yes.
8 Q
Had anybody from Comstock management addressed that 9
subject and indicated to you what the purpose -- to the 10 Inspectors what the purpose of the status reports were?
11 A
I cannot recall anyone stating the -- the purpose of a 12 status report, other than to keep track of the amount of O
13 work that was being done.
14 (Indicating.)
15 Q
Do you recall Mr. -- Mr. Seese -- a meeting and where --
16 Mr. Seese stated where that was the purpose?
17 A
I'm not for sure who stated that.
18 Q
Now, have your status reports -- have they ever been 19 used against you in either a negative or positive 20 fashion?
21 A
Not as far as I know.
22 O
No one came -- ever came up to you and stated, "Really, 23 R.
D., you are doing five inspections a day.
That's 24 great"?
(])
25 A
No, I don't believe I ever heard that expression used by l
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1 anyone.
2 0
Okay..
3 Now, to change -- changing subjects to the March 4
29th meeting that you attended at the NRC offices.
5 A
Yes.
6 Q
Now, at that meeting, do you recall the NRC Inspectors 7
asking the Inspectors in attendance for -- for their 8
addresses, to list their addresses on a sheet of paper?
9 A
I don't remember it offhand asking for addresses at that 10 time, no.
11 (Indicating. ) -
12 Q
Do you recall if you gave the NRC your address?
13 A
I dcn't believe I did.
14 Q
I believe you were shown a copy of some NRC memoranda, 15 and I believe you indicated that you didn't receive a 16 copy from the NRC.
17 Do you recall that?
18 A
I believe that is correct.
19 Q
And I believe also at your deposition I asked you about 1
i 20 that, and you indicated that you didn't give them your 21 address.
22 A
I believe -- I believe that was what was discussed, yes.
23 0
All right.
24 Now, at that meeting -- well, I believe there was a
(])
25 statement -- statement attributed to you that there was Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 more than a little bit of intimidation by more than one 2
person?
3 A
I believe I made that statement, yes.
4 Q
And I believe you were asked some questions on that.
5 I'm not sure if we identified the person other than 6
Mr. Saklak.
7 Do you know who may have engaged in harassment or 8
intimidation.
9 A
I -- I believe that is correct.
I believe I only 10 mentioned Mr. Saklak's name.
11 0
Okay.
12 Now what I'm asking is:
13 Are there -- do you acknowledge -- are there any 14 other individuals outside of Mr. Saklak that harassed or 15 intimidated?
16 A
On certain people, by certainly individuals, yes, there 17 were.
18 Mr. Irv DeWald, on some people -- I wouldn't say 19 that he was over.
'ryg with them, but me setting next 20 to him, I would consider it being harassed if he was 21 doing me that way.
22 (Indicating.)
23 Q
Now, I believe you testified previously that Mr. -- Mr.
24 DeWald mentioned or made -- on occasion made statements
(])
25 about certain tasks had to be completed in a certain l
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1 time or there was the possibility you may lose the 2
contract?
3 A
Certain programs had to be e,ompleted by a certain time; 4
right.
5 Q
Now, when you talk about Mr. DeWald, do you have 6
something else in mind other than that?
7 A
No.
Mr. DeWald and I had a very good relation.
8 The only thing that -- that I'm trying to point out 9
is that Mr. DeWald, in our weekly meetings, would say, 10 "We need to get so and so done in order to maintain the 11 contract."
i l
[}
(Indicating.)
12 13 Q
Now, after Mr. Saklak left and after -- after he left, 14 was there any remaining tension between the QC 15 Inspectors and the management, the Comstock management?
16 A
I don't know to what degree, but there was some, I'm i
17 sure.
18 Q
Would you describe briefly -- or describe for the Board 19 and the parties the nature of it -- the tension?
20 A
The nature?
21 Yes, I'm sure that -- I'm sure that some Inspectors 22 had a personality clash with Mr. DeWald or Mr. DeWald 23 also had a personality clash with certain Inspectors for 24 reasons varying maybe from being five minutes late to
()
25 coming in for lunch at -- instead of at 11:45, they i
i I
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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(}
1 might get there at 11:30, things of that nature.
2 In other words, it was just one of those 3
personality clashes.
4 (Indicating.)
5 Q
You were asked a question about Mr. Puckett --
6 A
Mr. Worley Puckett?
7 Q
Yes.
8
-- and I believe in response to one of the 9
questions by the Chairman, you indicated that, you know, 10 you thought -- Mr. Puckett was very competent in all 11 matters I believe was the words you used.
12 Do you recall that?
O 13 A
All matters relating to inspection, yes, I did.
14 Q
Could you give us the basis for that opinion?
l 15 A
I have been to the field with Mr. Worley Puckett.
In 16 fact, I -- I probably graded one or two of his --
l 17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Practical --
1 18 A
(Continuing.)
-- field tests.
Yes, his practicals; 19 right.
20 BY MR. BERRY:
21 Q
Did you and Mr. Puckett ever discuss -- did Mr. Puckett 22 ever discuss -- strike that.
i 23 Did Mr. Puckett show you any documents he had 24 written?
f
(])
25 A
Do what, sir?
l l
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(312) 232-0262
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Q Any documents or speed letters or memos that he had 2
written discussing -- or addressing his -- any concerns
,3 he had.
4 A
I believe I probably seen the speed memos and things 5
that -- that retained -- that pertained to weld testing, 6
yes, when I was working in the fab -- fab shop, that Mr.
7 Puckett initiated.
8 (Indicating.)
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Berry, do you want to 10 open new areas now?
11 MR. BERRY:
No, no, no, no.
12 BY MR. BERRY:
i 13 Q
You were also asked -- you also indicated, when you 14 testified about your practical -- practical test that 15 you had taken, that was disallowed because the 16 supervisor wasn't present.
17 A
I believe I did, yes.
18 Q
I believe you indicated that you identified the hanger 19 and -- that --
20 A
In the first place --
21 0
-- that was being used?
22 A
In the first place, I was the one that -- I'm the one 23 that find that -- that one particular hanger.
24 0
Were you saying that all -- that all the Inspectors who
({)
25 took a test used this same hanger for it?
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1 A
Let's just say that all of them didn't, but let's just 2
say that more than one.
3 Q
What was the defect on the hanger?
4 A
At this time I believe it was tube steel was -- was too 5
small for the drawing.
6 In other words, they had used the wrong size tube 7
steel on this -- this particular unit.
8 In other words, it might have called for a 9
four-by-four and they used a four-by-two, if I'm not 10 mistaken.
11 Q
You also -- you also indicated, in response to some 12 questions, that -- you stated sometime's the O
13 Inspectors -- the QC Inspector would scrape off some of 14 the paint -- especially if there was 12 or 13 and only 15 1 -- 1 weld had.a little bit of paint on it, that an 16 Inspector may clean it themselves so that he could have 17 the inspection counted that day.
18 Do you recall that?
19 A
Yes, I recall that.
20 0
Why was it important to have the inspection counted that 21 day?
22 A
Well, if you didn't have anything to turn in, it would 23 really look bad on the status.
In other words, the Lead 24 would wonder what you done all day.
25 Q
You were also -- you also indicated, in response to
(]}
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 an -- earlier questions, that sometimes Mr. Saklak would 2
be shopping around; that -- that he may have the 3
checklist that needed Level II review that may be a year 4
old.
5 A
I believe I seen some that way, yes.
6 Q
Do you have an opinion or reason you can offer as to 7
what Mr. Saklak would be doing with an inspection 8
report -- an unreviewed inspection report that old?
9 A
At one time, they were only a certain amount of Level II 10 Inspectors in each discipline on that job.
11 I'm sure that it was considered part of the backlog 12 as far as filing it into the vault.
O 13 In other words, we had a great big backlog --
14 different supervisors had,a great big backlog that they 15 haven't -- that.they didn't have finished -- in other j
16 words, hadn't been removed or something like that -- at 17 all times.
l 18 (Indicating.)
19 Q
Going back to the -- completing the -- and having work 20 done shown on the status report.
21 was -- I guess recording that the weld was painted, 22 a weld was painted, and consequently inspection couldn't 23 be done, was that considered work for the day?
24 A
Do what, sir?
(])
25 0
That just noting on the status report or the -- that a Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 weld was painted and, therefore, the inspection couldn't 2
be inspected, wasn't that considered work done?
3 A
I believe that -- I believe that was considered work 4
done, yes.
5 Q
Mr. Hunter, did you have any understanding of what the 6
consequence would be if an Inspector inspected a weld 7
through paint?
8 A
Did I have what, sir?
9 Q.
Did you have any understanding of what the -- what the 10 possible disciplinary consequence could be if an 11 Inspector inspected a weld through paint?
1 12 A
If any QC Inspector bought off a -- or accepted a weld 13 that he couldn't justify, he would automatically be 14 terminated, yes.
15 Q
Now, was -- the.part in your answer that he couldn't 16 justify --
17 A
Right.
18 Q
-- was that the understanding among the -- that was your 19 understanding?
l 20 A
That's my understanding, yes.
21 Q
Did Comstock management -- did they do or say anything 22 that would lead you to believe that -- that that was 23 their understanding as well?
24 A
I'm sure that they did.
(])
25 Q
Do you recall what they may have said or --
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1 A
Offhand, I cannot recall, no.
2 Q
Do you recall if there was ever any meeting or any 3
statement made by Comstock management on this particular 4
point, painting through the welds, or the -- that --
5 that requirement?
6 A
I don't believe I understood your question.
1 Q
Okay.
I'll try to rephrase it.
8 Is the procedure -- the procedure says that the 9
weld has to be sufficiently clean so that it does not 10 impair the inspection; is that correct?
11 A
It says it should not impair the inspection; right.
12 0
Okay.
Cs>
13 Was there ever any discussion or meeting or I
14 explanation by the management -- Comstock management --
15 as to provide you any guidance as to how do you make 16 that determination?
l l
17 A
Yes.
The QC Inspector is to use his judgment of whether 18 the material that he's looking at can be called to a 19 degree that it will either be acceptable or rejectable.
1 20 In other words, they do not tell you that it had to l
21 be polished, they do not tell you it had to be ground.
22 They said it should be in a condition that you could 23 make a judgment of whether it's either acceptable or 24 rejectable.
25 (Indicating.)
(}
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1 Q
Do you have any knowledge, Mr. Hunter, of any other 2
Inspector being terminated or otherwise disciplined for 3
accepting a weld through paint in violation of Paragraph 4
3.2 of the procedure?
5 A
I -- I don't recall any.
6 Q
Okay.
7 Do you have any knowledge or understanding as to 8
the practice of other Inspectors?
Did they inspect --
9 did they require a weld to be completely paint-free 10 before they did their inspection or was there some paint 11 on it or --
12 A
On that jobsite, we had Inspectors that the weld had to l
13 be completely polished.
In other words, no welds -- no 14 material left in the -- the ripples of a weld, no 15 material left 16,the toe of a weld.
We had other 16 Inspectors that said if they could justify that there l
17 was no cracks, no undercut, first one thing or another, 18 and the weld was structural sound, they bought it.
19 0
The way you inspected the 14 welds that we have been 20 discussing, that were documented in Intervenor Exhibit 21 67, had that been your practice?
22 MR. GALLO:
Objection.
23 I think there's a misstatement in the question.
l 24 He said 14 welds.
I think he meant 14 hangers.
(])
25 MR. BERRY:
All right.
14 hangers.
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1 THE WITNESS:
The 14 hangers about what now, 2
sir?
3 BY MR. BERRY:
4 Q
Had that been your practice throughout your welding 5
Inspector tenure at Braidwood?
6 A
My tenure at Braidwood, as I stated before, I can say 7
honestly that I never accepted a weld that I couldn't --
8 couldn't justify.
9 0
Were your Lead Inspectors familiar with your inspection 10 practices?
11 A
Oh, yes.
I'm pretty sure that I probably trained Mr.
12 Brian Murphy myself.
O 13 MR. BERRY:
Thank you, Mr. Hunter.
14 THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
15 JUDGE.GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Before we get to Mr.
16 Guild, Mr. Simile, you've already been sworn and you 17 remain under oath.
18 You took the photograph that we had in question 19 here; is that correct?
20 MR. SIMILE:
Yes.
21 MR. GALLO:
Objection.
22 I don't understand the procedure whereby the Board 23 is questioning Mr. Simile.
He's not been called --
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I'm questioning him on a 25 discovery matter or an omission in discovery, and I want
(]}
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1 to establish the background on that.
2 I believe that Applicant was derelict in that 3
discovery obligation; and I want to tie Applicant down 1
4 right now on what the background is.
5 MR. GALLO:
Well, in that case, your Honor, I 6
suggest you direct counsel to take whatever action you 7
believe appropriate and I'll commit to do it.
8 I don't believe it is appropriate for the Board to 9
question a witness under the circumstances and, further, 10 to suggest -- or to impune counsel's professional 11 integrity on the ground that you don't believe you can 12 deal directly with counsel.
O 13 You have to, instead, establish a recoid upon which 14 the Board can issue a direction.
15 I don't understand that.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, can you tell me 17 how many of those hanger photos were taken?
18 MR. GALLO:
Yes.
One.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And if we had 14 in 20 controversy, why were the photos taken only of 17 21 MR. GALLO:
It's my understanding that it was 22 just desirable to take the pictures of one.
It's a 23 matter of convenience as opposed to just taking them 24 all.
25 All the shots that are reflected in the Xerox
[])
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i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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~
9056 i O 1
copies of the photographs that were furnished to i
2 Intervenors are different shots of the same hanger.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, Mr. Gallo, I do want 4
on the record Mr. Simile's positive indication as to why 5
that was done.
l 6
I don't really want counsel testifying in the case.
7 And Mr. Simile presumably will be on to 8
authenticate and establish what's necessary as a 9
foundation for that photograph, and I would like to find 10 out right now what the story is on that.
11 I don't see anything objectionable about that.
12 MR. GALLO:
Your Honor, I would respectfully O
13 suggest the time to ask that question is when Mr. Simile 14 is presented as a witness.
15 JUDGE _GROSSMAN:
Well, Mr. Gallo, is his 16 answer going to change between now and that time?
17 MR. GALLO:
It's not going to change.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
So why can't he answer it 19 now?
20 MR. GALLO:
Because I don't think it's pZupar 21 procedure,'your Honor.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, this came up as a 23 surprise, and if your problem is that you are surprised, 24 I suggest that maybe that's your fault --
(])
25 MR. GALLO:
No --
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- Mr. Gallo.
2 MR. GALLO:
-- I'm not surprised, and I don't 3
think it was a surprise in the first place.
4 The Xerox copies were made available, as I've 5
indicated.
6 I just think that by the Chair asking these kinds 7
of questions, it reflects a partisanship which is not 8
appropriate.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, Mr. Gallo, I don't 10 like to be put in a position where it seems as though 11 I'm adversary to counsel, and I try to stay away from 12 those situations, and I don't appreciate being put in O
13 that position.
14 But when counsel uses tactics which require that we 15 take an affirmative stand in hearings, we just have to 16 do it.
That's our obligation.
17 Now, Mr. Simile has been sworn.
He's here in the 18 courtroom.
We've had a controversy with regard to that, 19 and I want to find out what the -- these questions, I 20 think, would be appropriate when he's on later, and they 21 are certainly appropriate now.
22 Mr. Simile, I --
23 MR. GALLO:
Before you --
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
The objection is overruled.
25 MR. GALLC:
I understand that, I understand
(]}
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1 that, your Honor.'
2 But before you inquire, am I correct in assuming 3
that the question is going to be put by the Chair, and 4
there will be no follow-up questions from any of the 5
counsel that are parties to this proceeding?
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Right now; but I assume you 7
are going to bring Mr. Simile back.
8 MR. GALLO:
I mean right now.
9 I'm asking my question as of right at this time.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Why, do you wish to have 11 follow-up?
12 MR. GALLO:
I do not want follow-up.
O 13 My objection has been overruled.
14 I object to any cross examination based on the a
15 Chairman's questions.
16 MR. GUILD:
I don't intend to seek to examine 17 the witness right at this time, Mr. Chairman.
i 18 MR. BERRY:
Nor do I.
l 19 JUDGE GRCSSMAN:
We're not going to have any 20 questions unless you request follow-up on that.
21 MR. GALLO:
No.
I'm perfectly satisfied with 22 the answer Mr. Simile is going to give.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Simile, why did you not j
24 take photos of the other hangers involved?
25 MR. SIMILE:
It wasn't a matter of
(
(])
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1 convenience.
It was a hanger that showed the situations 2
that we did run into, one situation; that in the 14 3
figure, there were several AVO's involved, not just 14.
4 We had took a sample of 14 randomly to see if they were, 5
indeed, in a painted condition or not, no I felt that 1 6
was sufficient.
7 (Indicating.)
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And how many photos did you 9
take of that one?
10 THE WITNESS:
Four --- I think it was four.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
The ones in which you sent 12 copies -- or counsel sent copies to other counsel?
13 MR. SIMILE:
There were four pictures taken 14 of that.
There was another --
15 J UDGE.GROSSMAN:
Okay.
And that's all?
l 16 MR. GALLO:
He's going to --
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Let me tell you, Mr. Gallo, 18 the reason I'm asking these questions is I want to have 19 full disclosure of what discovery required, and I think 20 it's appropriate to ask for that now, and so I wanted to 21 establish what it is we are lacking, and I don't think 22 that I should have to wait until Mr. Simile is back on 23 the stand to discover that there are other documents, 24 other photos, that are relevant to this.
(]}
25 MR. SIMILE:
There were four pictures taken.
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1 MR. GALLO:
Wait a minute.
2 I had indicated on the record that I would 3
undertake to determine what documents were lacking and 4
have them furnished to Mr. Guild.
5 I see no need to have to grade my performance by 6
establishing on the record this witness' recollection of 7
the existing documentation, or photographs, for that 8
matter.
9 I have an obligation to provide the materials that 10 the Board is seeking and Mr. Guild is seeking.
I 11 understand that.
e 12
' JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, we hadnt asked you O
13 with regard to the other hangers; and now I wanted to 14 establish whether there was anything that we had to ask 15 you for, and apparently we do not, so that's the end of 16 the photos.
17 Mr. --
18 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, may I have back the 19 copies of the photocopies I handed up to the Chair of 20 those records?
21 I apologize.
I can get you copies.
22 Two sheets.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Oh, I'm sorry.
24 MR. GUILD:
Two sheets.
25 (Indicating.)
(}
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1
. JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Two photographs?
2 MR. GUILD:
Yes, two sheets.
3 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, I think we can clear 4
this up.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo.
6 MR. GALLO:
There are eight photographs that 7
were -- two sheets were furnished to counsel.
There are 8
four on each sheet.
9 One is four photographs of the hanger that's been 10 the subject of the questioning, and I understand the 11 other is a photograph of a different hanger that relates 12 to the weld work of Mr. Arndt --
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay, fine.
14 MR. GALLO:
-- I should say the weld 15 inspection of Mr. Arndt.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
We have nothing 17 further on that.
18 Mr. Guild, you may redirect.
19 MR. GUILD:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. GUILD:
22 Q
Mr. Hunter, I show you again a copy of Int:rvenors' 23 Exhibit 67.
That's your March 25th listing of the 24 hangers.
(])
25 (Indicating.)
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1 Those are the hangdrs that were indicated to you 2
were suspect.
3 You went to the field and re-examined on that date; 4
correct?
5 A
I believe that is correct.
6 Q
All right.
7 Now, I show you a document that I only have a copy 8
of, but it has'been made available in discovery.
It 9
bears the Bates Stamp number 16670.
The cover sheet is 10 a request for QC inspection.
Attached to it is a weld 11 inspection checklist, a Form 19, both relating to Hanger 12 13H13.
O 13 (Indicating.)
14 On the back of the first page, there is language 15 and a diagram.
The statement reads, on the back of the 16 first page, " Disagree welds have some rust.
- However, 17 all vendor welds are painted."
18 Now, Mr. Hunter, you went to the field and you 19 looked at 13H13 on that date, the 25th of March, did you 20 not?
21 A
That's correct.
22 Q
And what did you find when you saw at least what's 23 recorded on your list, Intervenors Exhibit 67?
24 A
No field paint, no field weld paint.
25 0
All right, all right.
(])
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1 MR. GALLO:
Objection.
2 The witness said no field weld paint.
3 Is that the -- I just thought it said no paint.
4 THE WITNESS:
It says, "No paint," but there 5
is nothing whatsoever about the vendor or anything on 6
there, on this sheet.
7 (Indicating.)
8 BY MR. GUILD:
9 Q
All right, sir.
10 It says -- the sheet, Intervenors Exhibits 67, says 11 no paint for that hanger; is that correct?
A That is correct.
( )
12 13 Q
And next to the words "no paint" there is a numeral with 14 a circle 15 What's that?
16 A
Six welds.
17 Q
All right.
18 Now, I show you a Form 19 also bearing the 19 identification 13H13.
20 (Indicating.)
21 A
That's correct.
22 Q
And is that the Form 19 checklist for that particular l
23 hanger?
24 A
That is the checklist that I filled out on 3/13/86.
(])
25 0
All right.
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1 And on 3/13/86, how many welds did you indicate 2
were the subject of your inspection?
3 A
6 field welds, 24 vendor welds.
4 Q
All right.
5 The 6 field welds are the same 6 field welds as are 6
indicated on your list of March 25th, Intervenors' 7
Exhibit 67, are they not?
8 A
That is correct.
9 Q
Okay.
10 Does your list indicate that, when you looked at 11 those 6 field welds on the 25th, that they were not in a 12 painted condition?
O 13 A
They were still not in a painted condition.
14 MR. GUILD:
All right.
15 Now, Mr. Chairman, I'd ask that the document I have 16 just shown the witness, which is a request for QC 17 inspection, the attached Form 19, be marked as 18 Intervenors' Exhibit 71 in esidence.
19 (The document was thereupon marked 20 Intervenors' Exhibit No. 71 for 21 identification as of July 25, 1986.)
22 MR. GUILD:
I apologize for not having copies 23 for the Board, but I'll be happy to submit copies.
1 24 On the back of the cover sheet, there is a diagram
(])
25 and a list.
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1 These documents, again, were made available in 2
discovery.
3 I believe the handwriting on the documents to be 4
that of Mr. Therman Bowman, who initiated several ICR's 5
and an NCR with respect to this issue, and in the 6
process of initiating those ICR's and that NCR, he went 7
to the field and examined the condition on this hanger 8
at a later date, and I represent that my understanding, 9
from the documents in discovery, is that the notation, 10
" Disagree.
Welds have some rust.
However, all 11 welds" -
"all vendor weld are painted," reflects Mr.
12 Bowman's disagreement with supervision's assertions that j O 13 the welds'Mr. Hunter inspected were in a painted 14 condition.
l 15 JUDGE.GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, are you willing 16 to stipulate to that?
17 MR. GALLO:
I'm willing to consider whether or 18 not I have any objections to the admissibility of the 19 document.
20 But can I see the document?
21 MR. GUILD:
Absolutely.
22 (Indicating.)
23 MR. GALLO:
I understand the offer is the 24 inspection -- the request for inspection, the checklist, 25 and also the notations on the back of the request for
[]}
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1 inspection?
2 MR. GUILD:
It is, that's true.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes, the whole thing.
4 MR. GALLO:
Yes.
I have no objection.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
6 Does Mr. Berry have an objection?
7 MR. BERRY:
Without reviewing the document --
8 MR. GUILD:
I'd be happy to show it to you.
9 I believe counsel also should have received a copy 10 of this package in discovery.
11 MR. BERRY:
I don't think the Staff would l
12 object.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
We'll receive that 14 document.
15 (The document was thereupon received into 16 evidence as Intervenors' Exhibit No. 71.)
I 17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Can we get an authentication l
l 18 as to whether those are Mr. Bowman's indications?
19 MR. GALLO:
We'll seek to do that.
1 20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
21 BY MR. GUILD:
22 0
Were you ever informed, before your termination, Mr.
23 Hunter, as to the results of Mr. Bowman or any other 1
l 24 person's review of the actual field conditions
({}
25 reflected -- the actual field conditions with respect to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l I
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9067 O
1 the hangers that you assertedly inspected through paint?
2 A
On the 24th or 25th, when I were -- this was taking 3
place, I believe that someone said that they found paint 4
on some of your hangers.
I don't know who it was, 5
whether it was my Lead.
It could have been my Lead, it 6
could have been anyone in my crew.
7 Q
All right.
8 Did the company ever inform you of the results of 9
Mr. Therman Bowman's inspection of your work?
10 A
No.
I -- I -- I have no idea that Mr. Bowman -- what he 11 found or what he hadn't found.
12 MR. GUILD:
All right.
O 13 Mr. Chairman, I do -- had offered, and this 14 document has been represented -- I believe it represents 15 an admission of.a party opponent.
I believe it 16 represents that this, among other hangers, were found 17 not to contain paint.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
We understand what i
19 your argument is, and the document is admitted --
20 MR. GUILD:
Thank you.
21 JUuGE GROSSMAN:
-- so you don't have to 22 argue on the evidentiary grounds here.
23 MR. GUILD:
All right, sir.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And we note that you don't l
({)
25 have the requisite copies now, and --
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 MR. GUILD:
I'll supply them.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- so you will retain the 3
document and bring in copies on Monday.
4 MR. GUILD:
Fine.
5 JUDGE COLE:
Tuesday.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
On Tuesday.
7 MR. GUILD:
Fine.
8 BY MR. GUILD:
9 Q
Mr. Hunter, there's been a lot of talk about cleaning 10 welds prior to reinspection.
11 I take it, just for foundation, that when you 12 initially inspect a condition that's just been 13 installed, a weld that's just been installed, they don't 14 paint it first?
You inspect it before it's painted?
15 A
That's usually true.
What they call in-process 16 inspection, you follow right along behind the people who 17 are installing the hanger and do the inspection.
18 Q
All right.
19 A
The whole controversy about painted welds comes up 20 because reinspecting old work that's already been 21 inspected once or twice or three times and been painted 22 once or twice or three times, and you are coming back 23 years later, perhaps; that's correct.
24 Q
Now, there's been discussion about how the process works
(])
25 to get the welds cleaned physically.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 I understand your testimony is that typically the 2
crew -- craft crew -- uses a power brush to clean the 3
4 A
That is correct.
5 Q
All right.
6 Now, this is --
7 MR. GALLO: Obj ection.
8 I'd like to get a caution about leading when we get 9
to something substantive.
10 MR. GUILD:
Fine.
I don't mean to lead him i
j 11 on undisputed matters.
I'm simply trying to get us up 12 to speed; and I'll take counsel's position in -- keep it i
13 in mind.
14 BY MR. GUILD:
15 Q
A wire brush, a, power brush, is like on a drill?
16 A
That is correct.
17 Q
Okay.
18 And it is a high-speed revolving brush; is that 19 true?
20 A
That is correct.
21 Q
Okay.
22 And even when you apply pressure of the brush to 23 the welded surface, does it typically remove all the 24 paint from a weld?
(])
25 A
It does not, for the simple reason that you have ripples Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9070 0
1 in your face of your weld that unless you just set there 2
and polish it, you would probably not remove all the --
3 all the cover film from the -- from the weld.
4 If it's in a certain condition whereby the rotor 5
couldn't get into that one condition, you might -- you 6
might still have weld -- paint on the weld.
7 There's a' lot of things that has to be considered 8
as far as cleaning up a weld.
9 (Indicating.)
10 Q
All right.
11 Do I understand correctly that you observed some 12 paint on these welds despite the fact that they had been O
13 power brushed?
14 A
Oh, I've seen paint on power-brushed cleanup, yes.
I 15 0
All right.
16 Is that a common or an uncommon occurrence?
17 A
I would say it's pretty common.
18 Q
Now, if a craft was going to remove all the paint from a 19 weld -- well, you used an expression earlier, in 20 response to Mr. Gallo or other counsel, of bare metal or 21 white metal.
22 Do you recall saying that?
23 A
Yes, I believe I did.
24 0
Okay.
[]}
25 Do you get a weld down to bare metal or white metel Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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i 9071
()
1 using a power brush?
2 A
No.
I would say that you also have -- if you -- if you i
3 was actually taking it to a -- to a finish, to a metal 4
finish, a white metal finish, you would probably be 5
using more than just a power brush, yes.
6 Q
What did you use in order tc get it down to a bare or 7
white metal finish?
8 A
What they call a flapper wheel, which is a sand --
9 sandpaper-type disk that they also use in cleaning up 10 material to -- to weld or whatever they are doing.
11 (Indicating.)
l 12 Q
All right.
13 And that has an abrasive on it?
14 A
That's an abrasive type of material.
15 Q
When you use an, abrasive, a flapper disk, as you have 16 described, to get it to bare or white metal, do you 17 removal any of the weldment in the process, too?
18 A
Oh, you remove some weldment, yes.
19 Q
Do you actually -- do you smooth out the ripples if you 20 were using this?
21 A
I would say that you smooth out the ripples, yes.
22 Q
Now, what is your understanding of the requirement of 23 Comstock's procedure with respect to polishing or 24 buffing a weld down to bare metal?
(])
25 Is that required in order for you to perform visual Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 inspection?
2 A
I don't think I ever seen where there was a requirement 3
as far as individual weld inspection, no.
4 Q
Was'it a practice that you observed for Comstock crews 5
to grind or abrade a weld down to bare or white metal 6
before you were called to do the individual 7
reinspection?
8 A
No, I don't think that happened.
9 Q
All right.
10 So you inspected the weld in the condition where 11 they had been typically power brushed?
12 A
That is correct.
O 13 Q
And there might be some paint on them?
14 A
That is correct.
15 Q
Now, you stated, in response to a question from counsel, 16 that you heard Mr. DeWald talk about the risk that 17 Comstock might lose its contract at the job.
18 Do you recall that testimony?
19 A
Yes, I believe I do.
20 Q
Are you aware of who is performing the electrical 21 contract for Unit 2 at the Braidwood facility?
22 A
I believe it is a dif ferent contractor, and if I'm not 23 mistaken, Newberg got that contract.
24 Q
All right.
25 Did Comstock, to your knowledge, formerly have the
(]}
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O 1
contract for Unit 2?
2 A
Yes, they did.
3 Q
And why do you understand Comstock lost the contract for 4
Unit 2?
5 MR. GALLO:
Objection.
6 This is a collateral matter.
It's not material.
7 JUDGE GROS 3 MAN:
That's only his 8
understanding.
9 MR. GALLO:
I'm not quarreling; but aren't we 10 opening up an area that is new?
11 And given the time for the witness' wanting to 12 depart, I believe it's a collateral matter that we 13 should just not get into.
14 MR. GUILD:
It won't take long, Mr. Chairman, 15 I promise you.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Overruled.
17 BY MR. GUILD:
18 0
What's your understanding?
19 A
My understanding was that Comstock wasn't accomplishing 20 enough -- enough for Commonwealth Edison to justify 21 Comstock having both contracts.
22 O
Okay.
23 So, in effect, Mr. DeWald's observation that if 24 they didn't make production, they would lose the
(])
25 contract, turned out to be prophetic; it happened?
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
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O 1
A Well, it seems that way, yes.
2 Q
Now, you talked about a memo that you understood Mr.
3 DeWald or someone in supervision issued in early '84 on 4
the issue of inspecting through Galvanox.
5 Do you remember that testimony?
6 A
I believe -- I believe that happened, yes.
7 Q
All right.
8 And you described that in some detail in response 9
to questions from counsel.
10 Why did you understand such a memo was issued or a 11 directive was given?
12 A
I believe it was the feeling that if the weldment met
()
4 13 the size, no cracks, that they shouldn't take the time l
14 to have the craft clean each and every weld.
15 In other words, there might have been seven or 16 eight of us working on that one special project, and 17 they might have been trying to clean up a certain amount 18 of footage of cable pan in order for them to pull a 19 certain amount of cable by a certain time.
20 0
Okay.
21 It was an effort, then, do I understand your 22 testimony, to save time and speed production?
23 A
I believe it was for saving time, yes.
24 0
Okay.
25 You talked about observing rough weld work in the
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1 past -- or weld work that had been done in the past, 2
including, I believe you stated, the weld inspections 3
that had been previously accepted by Mr. Martin and 4
others.
5 Do you recall that testimony?
l 6
A Yes, I do.
7 Q
All right.
l 8
Now, was there a location, a particular location, 9
in the plant, where, in your observation, such rough 10 weld work was more prevalent than others?
11 A
I would say on Elevation 439 in the pan area where a i
12 young man by the name of Steve Scott and I did a -- sort I
13 of like an in-process repair for a period of some 60 14 days or more, the welds were extremely rough.
l 15 We pointed out the deficiencies to the weld repair 16 crews, they made the repairs, and then it was accepted 17 in the vault.
18 Q
All right, okay.
19 That was work that was the subject of an in-process 20 reinspection; is that what you are saying?
21 MR. GALLO:
Objection.
22 This inquiry appears to be justified on the basis 23 of part of the Martin cross examination that I 24 conducted, but it's beyond the scope of my cross.
(])
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes, that's right.
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9076 OO 1
It seems like you are just asking further questions 2
on your own direct, Mr. Guild.
3 MR. GUILD:
Well, it seemed to me that 4
counsel went for hours trying to establish the limits on 5
what the witness' observations were of what he 6
characterized as rough weld work.
7 It seems to me it should be open and fair game on 8
redirect to simply establish what the parameters of his 9
knowledge were of that bad work.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
I don't recall, Mr.
11 Gallo.
12 Did you actually examine --
13 MR. GALLO:
I only asked questions about his 14 opinion of welds inspected by Mr. Martin and his basis 15 for his opinions.
16 The location and that aspect I didn't inquire into.
17 MR. GUILD:
Well, he didn't because he didn't 18 want to know.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
But you did inquire as to 20 the basis for his opinion on that?
21 MR. GALLO:
The basis of his opinion that the 22 weld work -- the weld inspection work done by Mr. Martin 23 was rough, yes.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Then overruled; and
()
25 you can question on that, Mr. Guild.
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1 MR. GUILD:
All right.
2 It won't take long, Mr. Chairman, I promise.
3 BY MR. GUILD:
4 0
What part of the plant is Elevation 439, Mr. Hunter?
5 A
That is directly below the control rooms and below the 6
spreader rooms.
7 Q
All right.
8 And what sorts of electrical installations are 9
contained in this area of the plant, if you know?
10 A
What sorts?
11 Q
Yes.
12 What sorts of electrical installations are 13 contained in this area of the plant?
14 A
I'm sure that there are both Category'l and Category 2 15 in these rooms.
16 Q
All right.
17 You misunderstand or I'm misstating the question.
18 I'm not stating it effective.
19 Were these pans where cables run to the control 20 room?
I 21 A
Yes, they were.
22 Q
Okay.
23 Is it a congested area?
24 A
Very congested.
({}
25 Q
You mentioned another area, in the context of Mr. Saklak Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 sending you up a ladder, the upper cable spreading room.
2 Is that above the control room?
3 A
Yes.
That is Elevation 463.
4 Q
You stated that was a congested area.
5 What was the character of the weld work you 6
observed in Elevation 4637 7
A Much of it was very, very rough.
In other words, there 8
was hundreds of ICR's written on the welds alone on 9
those two elevations.
10 0
Now, you were questioned by Mr. Gallo about your letter 11 to Quality First and the Quality First response.
12 In answer to a question by Mr. Gallo -- Mr. Gallo O
13 asked a question whether or not you accepted the Quality 14 First representative's statements about what he did on 15 your questions.
16 And is it your testimony that you accepted that he 17 was telling you the truth about what he said he did?
I 18 A
I'm sure, like I say, that -- when I talked to Mr.
19 Peterson on the phone, that I thanked him for.looking l
20 into the points that I brought to him, and that was --
21 that was the end of that conversation.
22 (Indicating.)
23 0
All right.
24 Do you know what evidence Mr. Peterson sought and 25 looked for in his investigation, if any, about the
[}
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1 connection between your giving a deposition to Applicant s
2 and going to the NRC in March of '85 and your subsequent 3
termination?
4 A
No, I do not know who he talked to, what type of 5
investigation he made or anything to +-
6 Q
All right.
7 Do you continue to have questions, as you state in 8
Intervenors' Exhibit 70, the Quality First letter, on 9
those subjects?
I 10 A
Do I continue?
i 11 Q
Yes.
12 Those questions --
l 13 A
Well, I only -- in my own mind, I only wonder.
I mean, 14 I don't have any proof one way or the other of what
' 15 happened.
j 16 (Indicating.)
l 17 MR. GUILD:
Thank you, Mr. Hunter.
18 Mr. Chairman, that's all the questions I have.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
I have one question.
20 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
l 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
If you had checked 1 of l
22 these 14 hangers a few months before, but it was after l
23 the drawing had been changed, and you had written a 24 checklist out approving the welds, would you have had to
(])
25 recheck those particular welds again?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9080 O
1 THE WITNESS:
Well, yes, you took the drawing 2
and you inspected to what the drawing has on it on the 3
Rev A-Rev O drawings or whatever the Revs were, yes.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, let's say you had just 5
inspected that, let's say, two months before, and you 6
had a checklist indicating that you had visually 7
inspected those welds and that they were acceptable.
8 Would you then have had to visually inspect the 9
exact same welds if there had been no change in the 10 hanger within those two months?
11 THE WITNESS:
Sir, what you are asking is 12 from one program to the next program or from one hot O
13 spot to the next.
l l
14 You did what that program called for.
In other 15 words, if I had, looked at it 30 days before, I week 16 before, the program changed from a -- then you would --
17 it was your responsibility to -- to recheck it.
18 (Indicating.)
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay, fine.
20 Mr. Gallo.
l 21 RECROSS EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. GALLO:
23 Q
Mr. Hunter, are you asserting here today that the 24 questions you asked in your Quality First letter are --
25 or your letter to Quality First were the reasons you
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1 were terminated?
2 A
Like I say, I -- I never made any assertion to anyone.
3 Q
They were just questions?
4 A
These was questions to Quality First, yes.
5 0
And you got an answer from Quality First?
6 A
I did.
7 Q
And you answered my question previously that you 8
accepted that answer; is that correct?
9 A
I said that I had no way of knowing whether they 10 investigated it or what, but I accepted Mr. Peterson's 11 reply to me over the phone.
12 (Indicating.)
O 13 Q
But you are still -- you accepted his reply over the l
14 phone.
15 All right.
Let,me ask you this:
16 Are you supporting the Intervenors' assertion in 17 this case that your termination was caused by the fact 18 that you went to the NRC and you had your deposition l
l 19 taken and you had this personality clash with Mr.
20 Simile?
21 MR. GUILD:
Objection, Mr. Chairman.
22 A
I --
23 MR. GUILD:
Excuse me.
Mr. Hunter, please, I 24 have an objection.
25 This simply calls for a legal conclusion on the
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l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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(312) 232-0262
9082 1
part of the witness.
2 It's a meaningless question to ask whether he 3
understands what a contention is and what this claim is.
4 The contention or the filings by Intervenors speak 5
for themselves, so it calls for a legal conclusion on 6
the part of the witness.
7 MR. GALLO:
I'm not asking for a legal 8
opinion or anything.
9 I want to know whether or not this witness 12 10 supporting the assertion made by Intervenors.
11 BY MR. GALLO:
12 Q
Do you understand that the Intervenors have asserted in O
13 this case that you were terminated --
l 14 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I'd like a ruling 15 on the objection, please.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, let me ask you:
17 Is he misstating what your position is, Mr. Guild?
18 MR. GUILD:
I don't know what he's stating 19 the position is, but it's improper to ask this witness 20 to express a legal conclusion.
21 The facts speak for themselves.
I didn't recruit 22 or retain this witness to do anything.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
He's not asking a 24 legal conclusion.
25 MR. GUILD:
I believe he is, Mr. Chairman.
(]}
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
He is asking an opinion of 2
the witness, and he can, though I would suggest that you 3
not have that preface to it, tying the question in with 4
a legal position taken by intervenors.
5 If you just ask the question itself, without the 6
preface, it's not objectionable.
7 BY MR. GALLO:
8 0
Are you supporting the proposition in this case that you 9
were improperly terminated because you went to the NRc 10 and gave the deposition and had a personality conflict 11 with Mr. Simile?
12 A
As I stated before Mr. Gallo, I asked the question.
O 13 I -- I -- I didn't assert nothing.
14 Q
So is the answer to my question no?
15 A
I don't know whether it's yes or no.
16 0
Well, it's one or the other.
17 MR. GUILD:
It is not, Mr. Chairman.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Gallo, I think it is not 19 either yes or no.
20 He's saying he doesn't know, and I --
l 21 BY MR. GALLO:
22 Q
Is that your testimony, you don't know?
23 A
I didn't say I didn't know.
24 I said I asked the question to Quality First, "Was 25 that one of the reasons."
(]}
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1 MR. GALLO:
I submit, your Honor, that the 2
ansker either is I don't know, yes or no.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes, I'm not sure that the 4
witness answered that last question properly as to what 5
his position is.
6 Are you saying that you do know, you don't know, 7
and if you do know, whether it's yes or no?
What's 8
your position?
9 THE WITNESS:
I do not know.,
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
I think he intended 11 to say that he doesn't know.
12 MR. GALLO:
All right.
O 13 That's all the questions I have.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Mr. Berry?
15 MR. BERRY:
No further questions.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
We'll adjourn now 17 until 9:00 o' clock on Tuesday.
(
18 MR. GALLO:
Your Honor, I have a motion I'd l
l 19 like to make, but I think we ought to excuse the 20 witness.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay, okay, fine.
22 Mr. Hunter, thank you very much.
23 You are excused as a witness, and --
24 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
--- there is a slight chance
(}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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(
1 you might be called back, but chances are not.
2 Now, we've cautioned all the other witnesses about 3
discussing this testimony with anyone else, so we'll say 4
the same to you, that we would like you not to discuss 5
it.
6 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Thank you.
8 (Witness excused.)
9 MR. GALLO:
Given the hour, I'll hold my 10 motion in abeyance until Tuesday.
l 11 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Off the record.
12 (There followed a discussion outside the 13 record.)
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Back on the record.
15 We'll adjourn -- okay -- until 9:00 o' clock on 16 Tuesday.
17 (WHEREUPON, at the hour of 11:10 A.
M.,
18 the hearing of the above-entitled matter 19 was continued to the 29th day of July, at 20 the hour of 9:00 o' clock A. M.)
21 22 23 24 C) 25 l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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=- _. -_
NO PAGE NUMBER CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED ST TES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING:
BRAIDWOOD STATION UNITS 1 62 COMMONWEALTil EDISON COMPANY (EVIDENTIARY llEARING) l l
DOCKET NO.:
50-456/457-OL PLACE:
JOLIET, ILLINOIS DATE:
FRIDAY, JULY 25, 1986 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
(siot)
/fs/
(TYPED) [
h Gary L.
Sonntag Official Reporter l
Reporter's Affiliation i
l nV
- - - - - -