ML20199E850
| ML20199E850 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Braidwood  |
| Issue date: | 06/16/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#286-793, CON-#386-793 OL, NUDOCS 8606240111 | |
| Download: ML20199E850 (107) | |
Text
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DRLGINA'_
O UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
DOCKET NO:
50-456 OL 50-457 OL COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY (Braidwood Station, Units 1 & 2)
O LOCATION:
JOLIET, ILLINOIS PAGES:
4280 - 4384 DATE:
MONDAY, JUNE 16, 1986
/
0\\
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
OfficialRepcrters 444 North CapitolStreet Washington, D.C. 20001 8606240111 860616
~
hDR NATIONWIDE COVERAGE
4280 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X 5
In the Matter of:
6
- Docket No. 50-456 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY 50-457 7
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 8
and 2)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X 9
10 Page:
4280 - 4384 11 College of St. Francis 500 North Wilcox 12 Joliet, Illinois eG-
\\-
13 Monday, June 16, 1986 14 The hearing in the above-entitled matter convened 15 at 2:00 P. M.
16 17 BEFORE:
18 JUDGE HERBERT GROSSMAN, Chairman Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 19 U.
S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D.
C.
20 JUDGE RICHARD F. COLE, Member, 21 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 22 Washington, D. C.
l 23 JUDGE A. DIXON CALLIHAN, Member, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 24 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C.
j APPEARANCES:
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1 On behalf of the Applicant:
2 MICHAEL I. MILLER, ESQ.
3 ELENA Z. KEZELIS, ESQ.
Isham, Lincoln & Beale 4
Three First National Plaza Chicago, Illinois 60602 5
6 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff:
7 ELAINE I. CHAN, ESQ.
8 GREGORY ALAN BERRY, ESQ.
U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 9
7335 Old Georgetown Road Bethesda, !!aryland 20014 10 On behalf of the Intervenor:
11 ROBERT GUILD, ESQ.
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EXHIBIT INDEX Marked Received 2
Intervenors' Exhibit No. 41 4322 4322 j
3 TESTIMONY OF RICHARD ALLEN SNYDER 4
j CROSS EXAMINATION Page 5
BY MR. GUILD:
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JUDGE GROSSMAN:
The hearing is reconvened.
2 This is the 21st day of hearing.
3 We left off on Friday with Mr. Snyder's direct 4
examination just having been concluded and Mr. Guild was 5
about to begin cross examination.
6 Before we go on to that, there are a few 7
preliminary matters.
8 For one, with regard to Exhibit 33, part of which 9
was to have been an in camera-exhibit, the Reporter has 10 indicated, through a letter to our office, that they 11 can't take care of the required deletions, and we'll try 12 and have that done in Washington, so hopefully that will 13 be accomplished by our docketing section.
14 Second, the thing --
15 MR. GUILD:
Judge, if I might, can I ask for 16 a better identification of Exhibit 33?
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
That's Mr. Seese's diary.
18 MR. GUILD:
Thank you.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And we had made a subexhibit 20 out of that.
21 We are going to delete some matters --
22 MR. GUILD:
Indeed, I recall.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- in a few of the pages and 24 then have the full text of those pages in a subexhibit 25 that was to be in camera.
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1 HR. GUILD:
Fine.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
We now, also, have Friday's 3
transcript, which the parties agreed they would work on 4
this evening to make certain deletions, and then we'll 5
bring back the transcript tomorrow as deleted with a few 6
pages as in camera-transcript, I believe, but we'll take 7
care of that informally.
8 The third matter concerns the witness for tomorrow; 9
and I think we ought to discuss this as quickly as 10 possible.
11 There's a motion to strike the testimony of Dr.
12 Arvey, and I think we ought to discuss that right now,
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i 13 if possible, so that he can have as much warning as I
14 possible.
15 Are you prepared to, discuss that, Mr. Guild?
16 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, we are not.
17 If I -- I was going to raise the matter myself; and 18 our proposal is this:
19 We received that motion last week.
A written 20 response is in preparation at this time, but is not 12 1 available, and will not be available before Dr. Arvey j
22 takes the stand tomorrow.
1 23 I would like to do a couple of things before we end 24 today.
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I'd like to address the status of Dr. Arvey's 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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testimony in light of that motion.
i 2
I'd also like to essentially make sure that the 3
Board has copies of that and the prefiled testimony of 4
the other experts of Intervenor; but propose that on the 5
merits of the motion to -- to strike, that the Board f
6 take Dr. Arvey's testimony subject to that pending 7
motion and reserve judgment on the -- on the motion as l
8 it relates to Dr. Arvey.
9 I would prefer otherwise and prefer to have a i
10 ruling on it, but I don't believe -- it goes to his 11 testimony in toto.
12 He's timed the way he is because of an agreement of O
13 counsel to schedule him for a date certain.because of i
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14 his other -- his unavailability otherwise; but we would i
15 like the prerogative of a written response to r
16 Applicant's motion.
17 I'm prepared to address it generally, but since it i
18 goes to the sum and substance of the entire testimony of 19 Intervenors of an expert character, we would prefer 20 to respond to Applicant in writing.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
"I think that we should i
l 22 discuss Dr. Arvey today.
23 I think his testimony is somewhat on a different 24 footing than the other two experts; and I think right i
25 now -- having read his testimony,.I think the Board is
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basically of the opinion that there isn't any probative 2
value to having his testimony.
3 The other two experts are somewhat different than 4
Dr. Arvey; and so I think we really ought to dispose of 5
the matter today rather than spend any hearing time on 6
listening to Dr. Arvey.
7 Basically, my understanding of his testimony is 8
that he has no conclusions with regard to what's at 9
issue but merely recommends certain methodology that 10 ought to be used, which appears to me to be 11 inappropriate.
12 We have a methodology here in the hearing process; n
13 and what he recommends is perhaps a recommendation that 14 could have been made to Staff at some time or to 15 Applicant at some time, but it really doesn't have any 16 place in the hearing process.
17 We have a prescribed procedure, and the methodology 18 that he suggests is at variance with what we're doing.
19 We're not running any surveys.
20 So if you can point to something that you think has 21 some probative value within the hearing process, you l
22 know, that's what we would listen to.
23 Mr. Guild.
24 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I, once again, would S
25 urge the Board to first consider the testimony carefully
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1 before it reaches any conclusions, either tentatively or 2
final, with respect to weighing testimony.
3 You hadn't done -- the Board has not done that with 4
respect to any of the testimony offered by Applicant.
5 Secondly, the motion is dated June 10, 1986.
Today 6
is the 16th.
i 7
I have been continually occupied with the trial of 8
this case since I was served with that motion.
9 This motion is very significant, particularly in 10 light of the Chairman's observations, which I don't 11 believe are well founded.
I 12 Now, we would certainly like what we think the O
13 rules provide, and that's a fair opportunity to address 14 these points, including the Chairman's concerns, in a 15 written document.
16 We -- I am simply in no position to be able to 17 adequately address the Chairman's concerns on a --
18 spontaneously on the record, having first heard them 19 today, let alone effectively address a detailed motion 20 in writing, filed by Applicant, that goes to the 21 entirety of not just one witness' testimony but.all i
22 three.
l 23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
No.
What I said now doesn't 24 go to the other two witnesses.
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25 MR. GUILD:
But it does go to Dr. --
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JUDGE GROSSMAN:
They do have some 2
conclusions; and it may well be a gray area, but this 3
appears more black and white than gray to me.
4 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, if I can, I'll give 5
you my seat-of-the-pants assessment, and it is a 6
seat-of-the-pants assessment.
7 I think it's really unfair to Intervenors to put us 8
to this.
9 Applicant has many counsel of record to work on 10 this, and they have filed a detailed written pleading 11 that addresses these matters.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Let's hear the pants thing, O
13 but --
14 MR. GUILD:
The seat of the pants is this, 15 Judge:
I 16 Dr. Arvey's testimony needs to be read in 17 conjunction with the testimony of the other two.
It 18 need to be read as essentially addressing the question 19 of remedies.
20 The question of remedies is at issue because it is 21 anticipated that Applicant will provide, by way of a i
22 rebuttal case, if not already within part of its case in 23 chief, evidence that goes to the question of remedies.
24 We talked to our QC Inspectors.
We have the 25 Quality First Program that allows inspectors to come in
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f and to raise concerns, should they have them.
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l 2-They haven't done so or they have done so only to a l
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limited extent.
We took depositions of 20 QC Inspectors and asked i
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5 each one of them, "Did you ever approve a deficient weld 6
or other piece of work," and the answers uniformly were, i
7 "Not to my knowledge, or, "I did not."
All right.
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8 Now, those go to remedy, because they presuppose, f
9 in our opinion, the question of the existence of 10 harassment, intimidation, production pressure.
l 11 Drs. McCurnan and Ilgen were asked to and did, in 12 fact, address the evidence in this case that was l
1 13 available to them, and that is comprised of the three i
4 14 NRC memoranda and some deposition testimony, and offered l
15 their expert opinion, as industrial or industrial l
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16 organizational psychologists, about the likely effects 1
17 of those acts of harassment, that evidence of production i
I 18 pressure, on Quality Control Inspector work performance.
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19 To the extent that their opinions do not say that 20 there is unsafe work in the plant, it is because they j
21 are scientists, social scientists, because they are j
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4 23 have to say.
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i 24 The fact that their opinions are measured and 25 careful does not, in my opinion substantiate
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1 Applicant's position that absent a definitive opinion 2
that the Braidwood Station is unsafe, their testimony 3
should be disregarded.
4 Now, turning to Dr. Arvey, the question remaining, 5
after considering the testimony of Drs. Ilgen and 6
McCurnan, is whether or not there is testimonial 7
evidence, evidence by way of interviews or surveys, 8
evidence which is within the ken of social scientists, 9
if you will, particularly social and industrial j
10 psychologists, that could establish, with some degree of 11 confidence, whether or not, indeed, there has been, 12 first, harassment, intimidation, production pressure, 13 and second, effects on work performance which is 4
14 connected with those facts.
15 Dr. Arvey is charged with the responsibility of 16 addressing that issue, the issue of remedies; and 17 secondly, what he does is he takes a variety of social 18 science tools that are available within the industrial 19 psychology field, and my seat-of-the-pants rendition, 20 again, is he talks about surveys, questionnaires, use 21 of -- use of carefully-drawn instruments to try to 22 derive historical data about attitudes and behavior; he 23 talks about behavioral traces -- that is, more objective 24 indices of behaviors, such as absenteeism data, such as 25 production data, such as data that correlates, perhaps,
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1 acts of supervisory pressure with responsive behavior --
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and weighs that; and finally, he suggests that there is 3
empirical evidence that is more reliable than either 4
4 using simply survey methodology or indirect behavior 5
traces, and that is a review of the actual hardware, a i
6 reinspection.
7 Now, he says that not as an angineer, but as a 8
social scientist, who's mindful of the limitation of the 9
other methodologies that he employs.
10 Now, I fully expect that we're going to hear 11 Messrs. Mendez and Neisler -- that their interview j
12 method should lay to rest whether there was an adverse O
13 work performance effect of harassment and intimidation; i
14 because it is Mr. Little'3 testimony and the testimony 15 of Messrs. Neisler and Mandez that since none of the 16 inspectors pointed to evidence of an adverse work 17 effect, none exists.
That is the sum and substance of i
18 Staff's position here.
19 And with some E: lightly more sophisticated degree 20 of -- of focus, the Applicant testimony is to the same J
21 effect.
22 We asked people whether there was any adverse 23 effect on their work from that harassment and 24 intimidation, and they said there was not.
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the NRC staff and the Applicant, it is our belief that 2
Dr. Arvey's testimony is an essential link in the 3
evaluative model for looking at the evidence in this 4
case.
5 We disagree with Applicant's treatment of Dr.
6 Arvey's testimony and the testimony of the other two.
7 I should add that when, on Friday, I first had a 8
chance to have read this filing by Applicant, I told Mr.
9 Miller that I was greatly chagrined that he took the 10 opportunity to take potshots at our witnesses from the 11 deposition testimony, since at Transcript Page 1109 and 12 following -- the first day and following, the hearings 7
I '
13 in this particular case, when he asked for an extension 14 of time postdeposition to file these motions to strike, 15 it was given with a very clear understanding and caveat 16 that a motion to strike only goes to the face of the 17 testimony and that he does not then have leave to 18 essentially gets two whacks at cross examination or two 19 whacks at writing findings in this case.
20 That is what Applicant has done.
They've taken the 21 depositions and they have used whatever best shot they 22 had in deposition testimony to impeach, in advance, the 23 testimony of these experts.
24 I don't think they did an effective job of it, in 25 my view; but all the more important --
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, my recollection is 2
that they used that with regard to your other two 3
wicaesses; and I really didn't pay that much attention i
4 to their belief on the matter.
5 Nhat I did pay attention to was the substance of 6
your testimony for Dr. Arvey tomorrow, and so far, in 7
what I read it, it didn't persuade me there was anything 8
of value to us, because it appeared to primarily suggest 9
a methodology that is inappropriate to the hearing 10 process, one that we could not entertain, anyway.
11 Now, you' e raised two other matters here, which 12 weren't apparent to me from reading that testimony:
One O
13 being that it goes to remedy and the second being that 14 it's rebuttal of anticipated testimony.
15 You may have something with regard to rebuttal.
16 As far as remedy goes, I don't see how suggestive 17 surveys and other industrial psychology tools are of any 18 assistance to us.
19 We certainly aren't going to commission studies and 20 surveys and other things, regardless of what our finding 21 is on the main issue here, as to whether there was 22 harassment and intimidation; and, also, these appear to 23 go to that question', not as to how to correct the 24 effects of harassment and intimidation, if the Board
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3 MR. GUILD:
Judge, if I could just add one l
4 point.
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I was mindful, when I retained the experts, that we l
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6 were charting some rather murky waters here; that there 7
is not an awful lot of authority on how one tries and 8
proves and then tries to remedy harassment.
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9 The one case that I had any reference to, in trying
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10 to guide my approach to the experts' evidence in this 4
l 11 case, was the Comanche Peak proceedings; and I'm aware 12 the Chairman is a member of at least one of the panels i
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13 in that case.
14 What I became aware of in that case, Judge, was v
15 that the NRC Staff, in response to what I understood was T
16 Intervenors' expert testimony, essentially commissioned, l
17 through Idaho Falls, a series of efforts by industrial 18 psychologists and others to take survey data that had l
i 19 been acquired historically at the Comanche Peak site and
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20 analyze it and evaluate it and stack it up to establish
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21 that there was no work performance effects of the s
4 22 allegation of harassment established at Comanche Peak.
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23 Now, I read that report, the Idaho Falls report --
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24 or the EG & G Idaho reports, two of them; and it was on
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1 reports that it -- it -- I concluded and advised the 2
experts that I was seeking to retain that we had to l-3 address these questions, because, frankly, what the 4
Staff does in that case -- or the Staff's consultant a
5 does in that case says that we can close the book on --
6 on harassment and intimidation at Comanche Peak on the l
7 basis of evaluating, from a social scientist t
8 perspective, survey research data that exists at that 9
point.
i 10 I don't agree with that; but it seemed to me that 11 it was incumbent upon me, in trying this case, where a
4 12 there isn't a lot of precedent and where there's not a
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13 lot of guidance from the Commission or Board on how you f
14 go about evaluating this evidence -- that it was 1
l 15 incumbent upon me to address that suggestion, and that's 16 what Dr. Arvey tries to do.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Wait a second.
4 l
18 Well, first of all, my recollection of Comanche i
i 19 Peak was there had been two surveys commissioned in i
i 20 Comanche Peak contemporaneously with certain of the 1
I 21 events, and --
i 22 MR. GUILD:
That's right.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I'm sorry.
One of them was 24 afterwards; but your expert -- we don't have any surveys 25 like that in this case --
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MR. GUILD:
Indeed.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- and your expert 3
specifically disclaims the effectiveness of any 4
retrospective survey.
5 MR. GUILD:
He does, indeed, Judge; and that 6
is -- exactly what we asked him to do was to evaluate 7
whether or not the -- particularly given the fact at 8
Braidwood that we did not have any survey date that was 9
contemporaneous with the events, and if we had any data, l
10 it was data such as Edison Quality First people talking 11 to inspectors or -- or it was long after the fact NRC 12 Staff inspectors interviewing the men; and we asked Dr.
13 Arvey, "Can you evaluate the effectiveness of looking at 14 that data as a means for establishing past actions," and 15 you've read his testimony, and he concludes, as you --
16 as you -- as you read, Judge, that it's not a reliable 17 means for doing so.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, do we have any 19 proposal for a survey?
20 Does either Applicant or Staff intend to conduct a
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21 survey such as that that you could possibly be negating 22 with Mr. Arvey's testimony?
23 Mr. Barry.
24 MR. BERRY:
The Staff would offer the
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25 inspection report of Mr. Neisler and Mendez, you know,
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for those witnesses.
4 2
To the extent that Intervenors is characterizing 3
their inspection activity and the results of their 4
inspection and reflecting that report as a quote, 5
survey, unquote -- I didn't -- the Staff offers the 6
survey, but not -- not within the commonly understood 7
meaning of the term.
8 No, the Staff is not presenting any testimony or 9
evidence of that kind.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Miller.
11 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, we certainly have no 12 plans to conduct or introduce a survey and then rely 13 somehow on the results of the survey as demonstrating 14 the existence or non-existence of harassment or 15 intimidation or its effects on work quality.
f 16 I look at Dr. Arvey's testimony as setting up 1 17 gigantic red herring, and after reading 12 pages, you 18 finally get to his bottom line, which is that all the 19 social science techniques that he's most familiar with 20 he regards as not useful in this proceeding, and then, 21 finally, his last sentence in his testimony is, 22 "Therefore, I recommend the data concerning the work 23 itself be ascertained prior to reaching a conclusive 24 determination."
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Well, that really is the ultimate issue before this 25 l
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1 Board; and unlike the usual situation in a District 2
Court trial where the trier of fact just brings their --
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his or their life experiences to the facts before them, 4
the three judges in this proceeding, as in all NRC 5
proceedings, are themselves experts in assessing the 6
evidence before them with respect to its potential 7
effect on the Applicant's entitlement to an operating 8
license.
9 It is, in my judgment, somewhat presumptious for 10 Dr. Arvey to tell the Board what the appropriate remedy 11 is.
12 This Board is, I am certain of it -- as a matter of 13 fact, I speak from personal experience -- perfectly 14 capable of deciding just what quantum of evidence it i
15 needs in order to determine any matter that's in 16 controversy before it.
17 I agree with the Chairman's observation.
I don't 18 see how this testimony is going to be of assistance to 19 the Board in reaching any conclusion, because all that i
20 Dr. Arvey's testimony does is to survey the behavioral I
21 science techniques that he would use, from his vantage i
22 point as an industrial psychologist, in order to make --
23 draw some data together 24 That's the very function of the litigative process, 25 in my, judgment.
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l JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, the only thing so far i
I 2
that I've heard from Mr. Guild that suggests that we 3
might want to entertain any of Mr. Arvey's testimony is 4'
the idea of rebuttal of Staff's testimony.
5 Mr. Guild, do you --
.6 MR. GUILD:
Yes.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- consider that the 8
reports -- or the report by the Staff is going to be 9
based on any of the techniques that Mr. Arvey denigrates 10 as being applicable to this situation in his report?
11 MR. GUILD:
Absolutely, Judge.
12 The essence of the Staff's testimony and the i- ()
13 inspection report is that they performed the survey.
14 Now, it's not a survey as it's commonly understood l
15 because it doesn't even meet the minimally-acceptable 16 social science standard for how you would perform a 17 survey.
18 They didn't have an instrument, they didn't record 19 the results, they didn't exercise care in the crafting 20 of the questions or in preserving the answers.
21 They requested the witnesses through Comstock 22 management, Mr. Seese, "Would you bring Inspector X into 23 the room? " "Yes, I will."
1 24 There are none of the kinds of safeguards that
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scientific piece -- piece of scientific survey research.
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So the fact that the -- that the Staff said, "Well, 3
it's not a survey as it's commonly understood.
It does
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4 not go to its weight, it does not go to enhance its 5
weight, it decreases the weight that should be attached i
6 to it"; but, indeed, it's the Staff's claim or the
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7 Staff's defense.
8 Now, it's not rebuttal.
It's simply part of our 9
case in chief to anticipate and look at what the Staff's 4,
l 10 case is, which is this report, and say the report does 11 not adequately treat the subject, yet reaches i
12 conclusions about the -- about the existence of i
13 harassment.
14 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor --
4 15 MR. GUILD:
Excuse me.
I 16 MR. MILLER:
I'm sorry.
17 MR. GUILD:
The Applicant really does the 18 same thing.
They do the same thing when they put a Mr.
19 Maiman on the stand who says, "We have a Quality First 20 Program that is designed to elicit testimonial evidence i
21 of concerns," and that to the extent that they have a 22 system that's supposed to do that, it hasn't elicited l
23 concerns -- well, it elicited -- on the concerns it has 24 elicited, that should stand as evidence that --
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -
Well, I don't think that
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1 Applicant's relying on the Quality First Program as a 2
survey.
3 MR. GUILD:
Again, Mr. Chairman, the word 4
" survey" here, you know, it's a convenient way for 5
Applicant to denigrate the testimony of Dr. Arvey.
"Oh, 6
he puts up this red hearing; you know, says you should 7
do a survey and then says a survey is not appropriate."
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me, Mr. Guild.
9 Mr. Barry, has Mr. Guild characterized properly 10 what the Staff's position is going to be?
11 MR. BERRY:
I believe that the inspectors' 12 inspection reports speak for itself; but primarily the O
13 position the Staff has taken is not that there is no 14 harassment or intimidation, that it never occurred or 15 anything, it's that inspectors went out thete, they 16 interviewed a number of the inspectors, they were 17 intimately involved with the matters raised in the 18 Contention, and through their investigatory efforts -- I 19 believe they spanned a period of three months -- that 20 they could not -- they could not substantiate that there 21 is a climate of harassment or intimidation.
22 As I understand it, they did substantiate some of 23 the technical concerns that some of the inspectors had; 24 but as far as finding any -- corroborating any instance 25 of harassment, intimidation, other than the
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Saklak-Snyder incident, no, they didn't find any 2
evidence of that.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Did they conclude there 4
wasn't any harassment or intimidation through these 5
interviews?
6 MR. BERRY:
Well, just a second, Judge.
7 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I think Mr.
8 Little's testimony is very brief.
It's one paragraph; 9
and it makes the point I'm trying to'make; and it -- it 10 relies on Messrs. Mendez' and Neisler's inspection, 11 reports, but expresses an expert opinion, as I read it, 12 in any event.
, O 13 MR. BERRY:
Your Honor --
14 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, if one looks at Mr.
15 Little's testimony --
16 MR. BERRY:
Yes, yes, Mr. Little's summary 17 testimony --
18 MR. MILLER:
R!.ght.
MR. BERRY:
-- Page 2, the answer to 6 19 20 indicates that Staff has looked into each of the 21 incidents described in the Intervenors harassment 22 Contention, found no instances in which an L. K. C. QC 23 Inspector was intimidated or harc/ssed by L. K. C. QC 24 management or of falcifying quality records.
{)
That is -- that is the position of the Staff.
25 l
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(/
1 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, that doesn't -- I've 2
always understood a survey to be something that is 3
issued to a population, responses are received back, and 4
then there is a statistical test for measuring how 5
reliable the answers are depending on how many 6
responded, and the psychologist or social scientist then 7
ventures certain opinions based on tne survey results.
8 What we have here in Mr. Little's testimony is not 9
a survey, as that term is commonly used, but, in fact, a 10 direct statement about each and every instance of 11 intimidation and harassment that allegedly took place 12 and that is the subject matter of this hearing.
O--
13 Those witne ses, Mr. Neisler and Mendez, are going 14 to be on the stand, the QC Inspectors are going to be on 15 the stand; and it is not a situation in which, as in a 16 typical survey situation, the person sponsoring the 17 testimony is speaking as a result of hearsay 18 representations by individuals who are not going to be 19 called as witnesses.
20 MR. BERRY:
Yes, sir.
21 Your Honor, just so we're clear:
22 The Staff did not conduct a general investigation 23 or general inspection at Braidwood into the subject of 24 harassment and intimidation.
r' 25 What happened is the Staff received allegations,
(>)
Sonntaa Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 concerns, complaints, if you -- accusations, if you 2
will, and they looked into each of those specific items 1
3 that had been brought to its attention, and in each of 4
those cases, the Staff found -- were not able to find i
5 any instance of harassment or intimidation leading to 6
compromise of any safety-related components, system or 7
structure, and was unable to uncover any incident where 8
an inspector knowingly accepted discrepant work or 9
knowingly failed to identify a discrepant condition.
10 So it was the response -- or the actions of the 11 Staff were directed primarily -- solely toward 12 addressing the matters that were brought to its 13 attention; did not conduct a far-reaching, wide-ranging 14 survey or investigation into the climate, if you will, 15 out at the Braidwood facility.
It was a focused 16 inspection report.
17 MR. GUILD:
Judge, I -- at the risk -- it 18 just seems to me that, first, Dr. Arvey does have useful 19 expert opinion evidence to offer.
20 I'm sorry that the Chairman didn't read it that 21 way; and that reflects adversely on counsel, not 22 adversely en the witness.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, I'm not reflecting 24 adversely on the witness as far as his credencials --
25 MR. GUILD:
No, I know.
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t 1
JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- or his qualifications.
2 MR. GUILD:
I take responsibility.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Pardon?
4 MR. GUILD:
It reflects on counsel's 5
judgment, because it was my judgment tb?t it was of use r
6 to the Board as in the form in which it was put.
7 So I apologize it was not -- not read with such 8
eagerness as I had hoped that it be read with.
9 As a party trying to protect the record here, when 10 Applicant came to you to offer the testimony of a Mr.
11 Louden, as to whom we had a motion to strike his 12 testimony in its entirety on relevance grounds, and that O
13 motion -is turned aside and Mr. Louden is allowed, long i
14 after the fact, to review, in the case of his testimony, 15 Mr. Puckett's welding examination and offer the expert 16 opinion that he did, I should be able -- or my client j
17 should be able to anticipate the Staff's position in 18 this case, and we also think the Company's position, 19 that in-depth interviews, surveys, review of the records 20 that the NRC reviewed, for example, are adequate, from 21 an expert social scientist, to reach the conclusion on 22 the existence or non-existence of harassment.
23 Staff does that.
We think it should be fair game i
24 for our expert, Dr. Arvey, to address that question, and 25 to basically lay to rest, from a social scientist's
{)
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1 perspective, that the NRC Staff's' work is adequate to 2
arrive at that conclusion.
3 That's what he does.
We don't pretend he does more 4
than that.
4 5
We think the testimony was narrow because it was 6
intended to be narrow and focused on that issue.
7 We think that's within the scope of the Contention 8
and believe that it will offer expert assistance to the 9
Board, certainly well within the meaning of the Federal 10 Rules, which require that, when relevant, the testimony 11 only be such as can assist the trier of facts in this 12 case, and we think it does.
O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
I think we've heard 14 enough arguments on that.
15 Why don't we go out.
16 We will take a recess for about five minutes.
17 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 18 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
We're back on the record 20 now.
21 While the bulk of what we see here does not appear i
22 to have much probative value, if any, on Page 9, Answer 23 8 does appear to rebut certain matters that have been 24 proffered here, and whatever the value is of these
("N 25 comments, we think that we ought to allow Intervenor to l
\\_)
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1 put that on.
2 So it would impact more. on the case to deny it J
3 right now, so we're going to allow the witness to come 4
on and just give whatever probative value there is in 5
his testimony.
6 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, I'd just like to 3
7 observe that Answer 8, if that is the specific aspect of 8
the testimony that is -- the Board finds most pertinent 9
to the issues, that that is truly cumulative of 10 testimony given by both Dr. Ilgen and Dr. McCurnan, and l
l 11 to --
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
It was my recollection that O
13 the other two experts said more with regard to this than 14 Dr. Arvey.
15 MR. MILLER:
Yes, they did.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
But, nevertheless, we'll 17 allow him to come on and say his piece, and hopefully, 18 it won't take that long, because most of what we see 19 really has no probative value, and I think we're just 20 prolonging what would take -- ought to take very little 1
21 time tomorrow.
22 pkay.
So let's just go on with the --
23 MR. GUILD:
Again, Mr. Chairman, for the 24 record, I hope I don't need to note the fact that I 25 disagree with the Chairman's assessment of the value of
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the testimony and hope would reserve judgruent on this 2
until we have a chance to broach it.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, I will tell you, Mr.
4 Guild, we can reserve judgment on it and go over it a 5
hundred more times, but we are certainly not going to 6
commission surveys in the manner that your expert says.
7 MR. GUILD:
No, sir; and we never asked you 8
to do that, sir.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
We do have a hearing 10 process, and we're going to continue with the hearing 11 process; and most of what he suggests is outside of our 12 jurisdiction.
O 13 MR. GUILD:
No, sir, we don't suggest and 14 never have suggested this Board commission a survey.
15 For some reason, the NRC staff seems to believe, at 16 least in the Comanche Peak proceeding, in doing so 17 would
-- would be efficacious; but we think that's 18 wrong.
19 Staff here, we essentially think, does a thin and 20 pale version of the same thing, and we think that's 21 wrong.
That's why we offer the testimony.
22 We would hope the Board would reserve judgment on 23 the final value of that testimony until they read our 24 findings in the case.
25 These comments have never been made about Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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Applicant's testimony; and I think, if the Board 2
Chairman reflects a little bit, there are plenty of 3
places in the Applicant's testimony where similar kinds 4
of preliminary evaluations could be made, yet for the 5
record, I never hear these things made about Applicant's 6
testimony.
7 It's very hurtful to this party's position for the 8
Chairman to make these comments on the record when, in 9
fairness, those comments, if they are founded at all, 10 certainly should be directed with equal force to the 11 testimony of all parties and not simply in the 12 pejorative case of Intervenors' testimony.
O 13 It really does us a disservice to have these kinds 14 of comments made for the record, particularly when I 15 have not had a full opportunity, as the rules provide, 16 for even addressing these matters in a written response.
17 It really does us a disservice, Mr. Chairman; and I 18 would ask that the Board recognize that we're just not 19 in a position to respond, without any prior warning, to 20 this kind of -- these kinds of inquiries that go to the 21 heart of our case without at least being accorded the 22 minimal due process opportunities that the rules call 23 for.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
If you have completed, Mr.
25 Guild, are you prepared now to cross-examine the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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witness?
2 MR. GUILD:
I am, Judge.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Why don't you proceed.
4 MR. GUILD:
I think I am.
5 I'll let the Board decide whether they agree.
6 CROSS EXAMINATION 7
BY MR. GUILD:
8 Q
Mr. Snyder, in March of 1985 -- March 29, 1985 -- as Mr.
9 Miller's examination reflects, you first went with a 10 number of inspectors to the NRC resident office and 11 raised concerns about the day's events that preceded, 12 the Saklak incident, if you will; correct?
O 13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
And as Mr. Miller established in cross examination, what 15 you said both in the -- in the morning session with the 16 NRC resident inspector and in the later noontime session 17 was recorded in -- in NRC memoranda, and Mr. Miller 18 showed you those memos, did he not?
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
And I think that he established, in asking you 21 questions, that in the -- in the March 29, 1985, memo, 22 that was marked previously as Neisler-Mendez Deposition 23 Exhibit 6, a memo to Mr. McGregor, Mr. Schulz wrote, to 24 Mr. Rormic and Mr. Wile, you are the inspector that is (a~)
25 identified in the second paragraph as Inspector -- as Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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Inspector X; correct?
2 Take a moment and read that; but I believ'e that is 3
your testimony?
4 A
Yes, yes, sir, right here.
5 (Indicating.)
6 Q
And, in part, you can tell that because they state here 7
that Inspector X, who came to the NRC with allegations 8
on March 13, said, and then you talk about calibrations; 9
correct?
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 Q
And you, in fact, did go to the NRC on the 13th of 12 March, did you not?
O
\\'
13 A
Yes, I couldn't be certain of the date, but, yes, a 14 couple weeks prior to this incident I did go.
15 0
All right.
Now, I have some documents that were 16 produced by the NRC Staff as part of a Freedom of 17 Information Act request by Applicant, and they address 18 what has been identified as Allegation R, Roman 3, 19 85-A-0062.
20 First, there is a March 13, 1985, memo from Mr.
21 McGregor to Mr. Forney of the Regional Office, "
Subject:
22 Allegations with Regard to Qualification" -- it's a poor 23 copy -
"and Certification of L. K. Comstock QC 24 personnel."
/"T 25 Did I recall correctly, Mr. Snyder, that you raised V
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1 concerns about the qualification and certification of 2
Mr. Saklak, the supervisor, among others?
3 A
Yes, sir, him and my lead at that time.
4 Q
Your lead at that time was Ray Nemeth?
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
And Mr. McGregor, in documenting this -- or a concern by 7
an inspector, describes the inspector -- well, describes 8
the individua1 ras Mr. X and states, "Who wishes to 9
remain anonymous with complete confidentiality."
10 Did at that time you request that you be treated as 11 a confidential source?
12 A
Yes.
I think he asked me, and at that time I didn't O
13 think I wanted to -- anyone to know, I guess, that I was 14 over there.
15 I never went over there before; and I just assumed 16 with my -- my name being withheld, that would be the 17 best for me.
18 Q
All right.
And it states in the memo that you provided 19 several documents to Mr. McGregor -- or the anonymous 20 individual provided certain documents to Mr. McGregor.
21 Did you provide certain documents to Mr. McGregor?
22 A
I think I took copies of the procedures; yes, sir, I 23 did.
24 Q
He states that, first, the individual provided two pages 25 from L. K. Comstock's procedure.
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4313 5
1 And that would be part of their procedure for 2
qualification of QC Inspectors; is that right?
3 A
Well, the delineation of duties or whatever.
4 Yes, it had to do with the qualification or 5
certification, I believe.
6 Q
Okay.
And I'm going to show you a document of two 7
pages, Mr. Snyder.
8 (Indicating.)
9 And do you recognize that two-page document as the 10 copy of the procedures that you took to Mr. McGregor on 11 the 13th of March, 1985?
12 A
I'm sure this one is Quality Control Lead Inspector O
13 Duties and over here is QC Supervisor Duties mentioned 14 in procedures.
15 Yes, sir, those, I'm sure, are the two --
16 Q
Okay.
17 A
-- pages.
18 Q
All right.
And do you recall the name of the procedure 19 that these are extracts from?
20 A
No, sir.
21 It's probably got a --
22 Q
I can't quite make out -- the copy is rather poor 23 quality.
I can't make out the number.
24 A
41 something.
412 I believe is probably what that is.
25 0
All right.
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A I don't try to memorize too many of them.
2 Q
Okay.
To your credit.
3 And Mr. McGregor's memorandum states further 4
that -- what did I do with that -- that the individual 5
brought with him a master qualification list of 6
inspectors and an organizational chart of Comstock 7
Quality Control Department.
8 And do you recall bringing him those sorts of 9
documents?
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 It was just supportive to my claim, I guess --
12 0
Okay.
O 1
13 A
-- to show who my supervisor and lead were; and the 14 other one is to show who's certified in various areas.
15 Q
Okay.
16 A
I think they are both -- I had access to them.
It 17 wasn't something I had to sneak around to get.
18 Q
All right.
These were generally available documents for 19 QC Inspector's use?
20 A
Well, the --
21 Q
Let me show you the first one.
22 (Indicating.)
23 is the table.
24 And is that the master list of inspectors?
25 A
Yes, sir.
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4315 o
N-1 This changes, of course, every time someone gets 2
certified; but I think on this particular list, all I 3
had to do was go to the Training Department and ask for 4
a copy.
5 Now, the other one is generally posted on a monthly 6
basis.
I think they update it monthly or --
7 Q
By "the other one," do you mean the fourth attachment, 8
and that's the organizational chart of the QC 9
Department?
10 A
Yes, yes, sir.
11 Q
Okay.
Now, I apologize.
The copies I have are poor, 12 and this is the quality that came in the FOI response.
/
13 But looking at Attachment 4, do you see a date of 14 3/11/85 in the upper left-hand block of information?
15 A
Yes, yes, sir.
16 Q
Would that, to the best of your knowledge, reflect this 17 effective date of that chart?
18 A
Yes, sir, I would say so.
19 That's the only date, I'm sure, on here.
20 Q
All right.
Now, Mr. McGregor's memo states as follows:
21 "The individual stated that L. K. Comstock has a QC 22 general supervisor, supervisors and lead inspectors who 23 are not qualified / certified in all disciplines."
t 24
' And, in substance, did you make that statement to 25 him?
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A I'm sure -- yes, about my supervisor, and even my lead, 2
I'm sure I did make similar statements.
3 Q
Okay.
" One example is one supervisor, R. Saklak, who 4
until Monday, March 11, was supervising all eight 5
disciplines.
See Attachment 3," and then he lists 6
conduit, cable tray, cable pull, termination CEA's, e
7 receipt, calibration and penetration.
8 Quoting further from Mr. McGregor's memo, "Yet is 9
only qualified in conduit, cable pull, terminations and 10 CEA's."
11 Did you make that statement to Mr. McGregor in 12 substance?
O 13 A
Yeah, I'm sure we -- I pointed that out to him; and it's 14 pretty obvious with the charts I gave him that anyone 15 can figure that out.
16 Q
Okay.
The chart that you gave him, the Attachment 4, 17 that organizational chart, effective March 11, 1985, 18 does that show Mr. Saklak in his new duties that were 19 limited to only the disciplines of -- well, the smaller 20 number of disciplines?
21 A
Yes, sir, there's four disciplines underneath him --
22 Q
Okay.
23 A
-- on that chart.
24 Q
And which four are listed on the chart?
[}
25 A
Re,ceipt, calibration, CEA's and equipment.
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O 1
Q And is it your understanding that prior to March 11, 2
1985, Mr. Saklak had supervision reresponsibility in all 3
eight disciplines?
4 A
Yes,' sir, he was in charge of -- if you are talking the 5
other four as being the raceway, termination, RBR's and 6
cable pull, would that be the eight total?
7 0
Well, eight -- I don't know how you count them.
8 Eight is the number that Mr. McGregor uses, and I 9
wasn't trying to count them.
10 But in all disciplines for which Comstock did 11 inspection work?
12 A
Yes, sir, I know there was a time -- and quite possibly
\\>
13 prior to 3/11 -- that he was in charge of every one.
14 Q
Okay.
Now, can you direct my attention to the portions 15 of the then applicable Comstock procedure that you 16 brought to Mr. McGregor's attention?
17 I'm showing you the two pages of the first 18 uttachment to the McGregor memo.
19 (Indicating.)
20 A
I'm sorry.
What was the --
21 Q
The procedures that you brought to McGregor's attention 22,
that had to do with requirements for qualification of 23 supervisors, leads, et cetera.
24 A
Yes, sir, I'm sure these are the two.
r~g 25 Q
Okay.
Can you point those out to me, the relevant
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provisions for the record, please?
2 A
Do you want me to read this?
3 Q
Just if you read the title and the number of the --
4 A
Okay.
Paragraph 1.22, Quality Control Lead Inspector --
5 Q
Okay.
6 A
-- and Paragraph 1.21, Quality Control Supervisor.
l 7
Q Okay.
And what of the, in your opinion, material 8
provisions of those paragraphs that -- that required 9
that leads and supervisors, in your opinion, be 1
10 certified in the disciplines that they supervised?
11 A
Well, under lead inspector, the last sentence of the 12 paragraph is, "Must be certified as Level 2 in O
13 designated areas and perform inspections when not in 14 a" -
" filling lead responsibilities."
15 0
Okay.
16 A
And as supervisor, that he should be trained and 17 knowledgeable in the assigned areas of responsibility 18 and certified to Level 2 capability in those areas.
19 Q
Okay.
And as to Mr. Saklak, he was not certified in the 20 area in which you performed inspections in which he 21 supervised you, and that was calibrations?
22 A
Yes, sir, that was true.
23 Q
And Mr. Nemeth, your lead, he also was not certified in 24 the area of calibrations?
25 A
That's correct.
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1 He had been trained by myself.
He was not yet 2
certified; and prior to Mr. Nemeth, Mr. Phillips was my 3
lead, since October 8th when I did take over 4
calibrations, and he, again, was not certified and still 5
was not certified as a Calibration Inspector.
6 Q
All right.
And Mr. Phillips, you understood, was Mr.
7 John Seeders' lead when Mr. Seeders was the Calibration i
8 Inspector; right?
4 9
A Yes, sir.
10 Larry Phillips was my lead as well when I was 11 training.
I -- it was understood I was going to be in 12 receiving or calibration, and those were the two areas i
13 Larry Phillips was lead over at the time.
)
14 Q
And whether Mr. Seeders performed the calibration 15 inspection, was Mr. Phillips ' certified in calibrations 36 at that time?
17 A
No, sir, I don't believe he's ever been certified as 18 Calibration Inspector.
19 Q
All right.
Mr. Saklak, the QC supervisor before March 20 11, 1985, before you became Calibration Inspector in the 21 fall of '84, did Mr. Saklak supervise calibrations?
22 A
Yes, sir, he was in charge of that area.
23 Q
And was he, Mr. Saklak, certified in calibrations before 24 your time as the Calibrations Inspector?
l l
25 A
Not to my knowledge.
t b
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1 Q
The memo from Mr. McGregor goes on.
It states, "The 2
lead inspector, Ray Nemeth, does not have any 3
qualifications.
This is contrary to L. K. Comstock 4
Procedure 4.1.2, Section 1.22.
See Attachment 2."
5 Did you make that statement to Mr. McGregor in 6
substance?
7 A
I don't know whether I said " qualified."
I -- I know I 8
said he was not certified.
9 Q
Okay.
10 A
Now, you know, the way they set up certifications, 11 anyone that takes the 40 hours4.62963e-4 days <br />0.0111 hours <br />6.613757e-5 weeks <br />1.522e-5 months <br /> training and passes their 12 test, Comstock considers that -- considers them O
13 qualified to do the job.
14 Q
All right.
15 A
I know Ray Nemeth had not any prior calibration 16 experience.
17 Q
And he was not certified in calibrations?
18 A
True.
19 Q
All right.
The memo concludes, " Larry Phillips was a 20 lead inspector for two or three years and he has never 21 been qualified in anything but receipt inspections."
22 My question is:
23 Did -- in that -- in substance, did you make that 24 statement to Mr. McGregor?
25 A
Yes, sir.
[}
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1 Q-Okay.
"A.
Simile and R. Tuite, T-U-I-T-E, also not 2
qualified in areas of inspection, yet they are assigned 3
as QC supervisors."
4 And in substance, did you make that statement to 5
Mr. McGregor?
6 A
I'm sure, again, I said certified, not qualified.
7 There is a difference there; and, yes, sir, I --
8 that was true at that time.
9 I'm thinking -- I'm sure if you looked at the 10 chart, too, their names are not under the certified 11 areas that they were in charge of.
12 Q
Okay.
Well, in order to -- to be qualified, as that O
13 term is used very precisely in the Comstock 14 procedures -- for, let's say, a Level 2 inspector to be 15 qualified to perform inspections, he has to be 16 certified, does he not?
17 A
True.
18 Q
Yes, sir.
19 As the procedures were written at the time you
- )
20 brought this to Mr. McGregor's attention, for a i
21 supervisor and a lead to be qualified to perform those l
22 functions, they, too, had to be certified in those 23 disciplines?
24 A
Yes, sir, I believe that's the way that was worded,
(}
25 certified.
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1 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I only have a 2
single copy of the document in question.
3 I would ask, though, that a March 13, 1985, memo 4
that the witness has identified, with four attachments, 5
also identified by the witness, be marked as the next 6
hearing exhibit, Intervenors' 41, and received in
.7 evidence; and with leave, I'll supply additional copies 8
for the parties and Board as soon as possible.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
So marked.
10 (The document was thereupon marked 11 Intervenors' Exhibit No. 41 for 12 identification as of June 16, 1986.)
O 13 MR. GUILD:
And I'd ask that the document be 14 received in evidence, Mr. Chairman.
15 MR. BERRY:
No objection from the Staff.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Miller?
17 MR. MILLER:
No objection.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Received.
19 (The document was thereupon received into 20 evidence as Intervenors' Exhibit No. 41.)
21 BY MR. GUILD:
22 Q
Now, as the record reflects, Mr. Snyder, you 23 subsquently, in the month of March,1985, went to the 24 NRC on the 29th.
25 Now, did you go with anyone else on the 13th of
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1 March?
2 A
No, sir.
3 I -- it was just something I felt like I had to do 4
there.
5 Again, I think if you would check the records, my 6
area of inspection was the only one I didn't have a 7
certified lead in as well as a supervisor, although 8
several inspectors have a certified supervisor at that 9
time, but it had went on and on, and it was just 10 something I thought had to be correctede at least 11 because it was in the procedure, and me as an inspector, 12 I cannot violate procedures.
I didn't feel like that it O
13 should go on any longer.
14 Q
All right.
Do yon have any basis for concluding that 15 Comstock's management, Mr. DeWald and others, were not 16 aware of your concern -- strike that -- were you not 17 aware of the fact that Mr. Phillips, Mr. Nemeth, Mr.
18 Saklak, Mr. Simile and Mr. Tuitt were not certified in 19 the areas that you have described in your talk to Mr.
20 McGregor?
21 A
Oh, I'm -- no, I know they had to have been aware of it.
22 There's people -- the QA Department, you know, 23 that's -- all they do is look for procedure violations; 24 and -- and I just know it's -- well, Mr. DeWald signed
(~
25 it, I'm sure, or maybe Mr. Seltmann, the procedure.
V}
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Sonntac ReDortino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4324 O
1 Q
Signed the procedure?
2 A
Yes, sir.
3 They have to concur with the corrections of the 4
procedure.
5 Q
All right.
And when you say the QA Department, do you 6
mean Mr. Seltmann, who was then the QA Manager or QA 7
Engineer?
8 A
Yes, sir.
9 Q
He would have to be aware of it because he approved the 10 procedures?
11 A
Yes, sir.
12 Q
All right.
And so you understood, when you went to see 13 Mr. McGregor, that Comstock management was aware of the 14 problem?
15 A
Well, yes, I -- I know they had to have been.
16 Q
All right, sir.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
18 Are you saying that you know they were aware of the 19 fact that these people had to be certified or are you 20 also saying that they were aware of the fact that they 21 were not certified?
22 THE WITNESS:
Well, I'm sure both.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
24 THE WITNESS:
They both go right along with 25 each other in those cases, I would say.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 l
4325 O
1 BY MR. GUILD:
2 Q
Now, what was your motive or reason for going to the NRC 3
on the 13th of March, Mr. Snyder?
4 MR. MILLER:
I object.
5 I think the witness has already answered that 6
question, described why he went.
7 MR. GUILD:
He may have; but just lest we 8
fail to establish with clarity that --
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I'm not sure he stated it 10 with clarity.
11 MR. GUILD:
Fine.
12 So let me ask the question again.
Os 13 BY MR. GUILD:
14 Q
What was your motive or reason for going to the NRC on 15 the 13th of March with concerns about certification and 16 qualification of your supervision?
17 A
Well, again, there was a procedure violation that 18 management was violating and I just felt strongly enough 19 about it.
20 I was -- I was involved in those -- that lead and 21 supervisor not being certified, and, as I stated, that
'22 was the only area, I believe, that was happening; and I 23 had a lot of responsibility on my shoulders at that time 24 trying to get things corrected and -- and run a l
-~
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25 department, but -- so, more or less, I could see Sonntaa ReDortino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4326
()
1 something come down on me later as far as problems 2
that -- me being the only one certified out of that 3
trio, my lead and my supervisor, I might have to answer 4
for alone, you know, without proper certified 5
leadership.
6 Q
Okay.
Do I understand your response to stand for the 7
proposition that you wanted to see that the program was 8
done per procedure?
9 A
That's correct.
10 I felt like that we all have to go by our 11 procedures.
Whether they are good or not, that's all we 12 have to fall back on; and in that case management, like O
13 I stated, had to have been aware of that procedure and 14 they were not following it; and it was just simply to 15 get them them to follow the procedure, get us -- get q
16 people certified over me so I did have direction to j
17 follow.
18 Q
Did you -- did you raise these concerns, Mr. Snyder, 19 with the NRC on the 13th of March for any other reason 20 aside from trying to see that the program was done per 21 procedure?
22 A
Well, I didn't go to management, if that's what you are 23 referring to, because like --
24 Q
That's not what I mean.
25 Let me ask th'e question again and ask you to
{)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 1
4327 O
1 respond to the question directly.
2 Did you go to the NRC, Mr. McGregor, for any other 3
reason other than the reason that you have just now 4
stated?
5 A
Not that I recall at that time, no.
6 Q
Did you go to the NRC on the 13th of March to try to 7
enhance th' local Union 306's bargaining position with 8
Comstock management?
9 A
No, sir, that had nothing to do with it.
10 Q
Did you go to Mr. McGregor on the 13th of March with 11 your concerns about the qualification of your 12 supervision in order to get back at any of these 13 individuals, Mr. Saklak, Mr. Nemeth, Mr. Phillips, Mr.
14 Seese, Mr. Tuitt?
15 A
No, sir.
16 Q
Now, were you aware, Mr. Snyder -- I ask you to think 17 back now to a period of time the year before March of 18 1985, the time when you were training in calibrations.
19 Were you aware that Mr. John Seeders wrote a letter 20 on the 17th of Augbst. 1984, to Edison and the NRC and 21 to Comstock manejces A ?
22 A
No, sir.
23 y
Had you ever heard, as you sit here toda', that he wrote y
24 such a letter?
25 A
Yes, I have seen it since then --
[}
N Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4328 1
Q Okay.
2 A
-- but I was not aware of it at that time.
3 Q
At the time he wrote it?
4 A
Right.
5 Q
Okay.
Just for the record, can you recall when you 6
first learned that Mr. Seeders had written such a 7
letter?
8 A
No sir.
9 I know when I first seen it, but I do not recall 10 when I first heard about it.
11 Q
Let's start with that.
12 When did you first see it?
O 13 A
It was during a union function.
In fact, there was 14 hearings or whatever you want to call it going on for 15 the union.
They were bringing certain inspectors in.
16 I believe it was a -- the National Labor Relation 17 Board --
18 Q
Okay.
19 A
-- was conducting hearings, and I -- I seen the letter 20 then.
21
.Q Okay.
Now, what were the circumstances that you had the 22 letter brought to your attention at that time?
23 A
Well, we were -- we was in a motel -- hotel in -- I 24 don't know if it's here in Joliet or Chicago, but we
(')/
25 were standing out in the hall, a' group of us inspectors, s-
/
/
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4329 O
1 and one inspector did have the letter on his -- in his 2
possession, and I read it then.
3 Q
Okay.
Can you recall what month, approximately, it was 4
when that occurred?
5 Was it before or after the union election in 6
November of '84; can you recall?
7 A
It would have been after that.
8 Q
All right.
And do you recall whether these proceedings, 9
these NRC hearings, were on the --
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
NLRB.
11 BY MR. GUILD:
12 Q
I'm sorry.
O 13
-- the NLRB hearings were involved in the dispute 14 about the validity of the election results?
Was that 15 the point of the case?
16 A
Well, I know there was a dispute.
I could not say 17 exactly if that's why they were conducting their 18 hearing.
19 Q
Fine.
That's all right.
20 Did you read the letter at that time?
21 A
Yes, sir.
22 Q
And do you recall observing at that time that Mr.
23 Seeders, in that letter of August 17,
'84, raised the 24 assertion that his supervisor, Mr. Saklak, was not 25 certified in the area of calibrations?
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Sonntaa ReDortina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4330 1
A It's been so long, I don't recall that.
I'm just sorry.
2 I know he had some complaints in the letter to 3
management, I believe, or -- or whoever he was 4
addressing that letter to, and I don't recall what the 5
complaints were.
6 Q
Okay.
Did it come to your attention before that 7
letter -- I know you hadn't seen the letter up until 8
that point -- that Mr. Seeders had -- before you raised 9
a concern to Edison, to the NRC or to Comstock 10 management, that his supervision, including Mr. Saklak, 11 was not certified in the area they were supervising, 12 calibrations?
C:)
13 A
No, sir, I didn't -- I was not aware of that.
14 0
You weren't aware of that fact, then, when you were 15 evaluating Mr. Seeders' work in the program to review 16 all the Comstock calibration records that we've 17 testified about?
1 18 A
I was not aware that he had went to people and 19 complained about that, no.
I didn't know that at that 20 time.
21 (Indicating.)
22 Q
All right, okay.
23 MR. GUILD:
If I could ask for -- if counsel 24 has a copy of Applicant's Exhibit 28 -- is there a stack 25 of all the exhibits?
(}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4331 s
O P
1 MR. MILLER:
I'believe he has a set up there.
2 THE WITNESS:
I did'n't mark some of the 3
earlier ones.
I don't -- okay.
4 MR. BERRY:
Is that Applicant or 5
Intervenors'?
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Applicant.
7 MR. GUILD:
Applicant.
8 It's Mr. Snyder's review of the calibration 9
records, calibration audit report 9/7/84.
10 BY MR. GUILD:
11 Q
You have that document, Mr. Snyder?
12 A
Yes, uh-huh.
O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Are we waiting for 14 something, Mr. Guild?
15 MR. GUILD:
Does counsel have the document 16 available?
17 MR. MILLER:
I'm sorry.
I beg your pardon.
18 I have it.
19 What number is that, Mr. Guild?
20 MR. GUILD:
28.
21 MR. MILLER:
Yes.
Did you want me to --
22 MR. GUILD:
No, no.
He has the document.
23 I just wanted to make sure that counsel had the i
24 document for this.
(])
25 BY MR. GUILD:
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 i
4332 O
1
'O Mr. Snyder, this, again, is the document that is a 2
typewritten version of handwritten notes that were the I
3 product of the review you, Miss Sproull and Mr. Coss, in 4
part, conducted of all the calibration records pursuant 5
to Mr. Saklak's direction; correct?
6 A
Yes, sir.
7 Q
Now, as I recall your testimony, the cover sheet that 8
appears on this document was not written as a cover 9
sheet for the entire document?
It really is an interim 10 report, is it not?
11 A
Yes, sir.
12 Q
Okay.
And the cover sheet has a date 9/7/84 on it.
13 That date is not the date when you completed all of 14 the review that is reflected in the typewritten notes 15 that are attached; correct?
16 A
I would say that's correct.
17 Q
Again, you projected that -- on the cover report, that 18 you were 50 percent complete, and it was going to take 19 you until the 21st of September, another couple weeks, 20 to finish your work; correct?
21 A
Yes, sir.
22 The reason for this:
This had to do with that 23 audit, and they had to have -- out QA Department, Mr.
24 Seltmann, had to have approximate times when we thought
/}
25 we would be done, and had to report, apparently, on our Sonntac Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4333 O
1 progress.
2 Q
Okay.
But, in any event -- and I think your testimony 3
was you weren't sure whether you were done by the 4
September the 21st date that you projected?
5/
A I couldn't be sure of that, no.
6 Q
But it is clear that the document was not completed --
7 by that I mean, all of the multi-page listing of 8
errors wasn't completed as early as the 7th of 9
September?
10 A
I would say that's correct.
11 Q
Okay.
Now, when you testified that you were asked to 12 review all of the calibration documents for errors, did O
13 that mean all of the records that existed back to Day 1 14 in the Comstock files?
15 A
Yes, sir, from about --
16 Q
Now --
17 A
Well, there was another contractor before Comstock 18 Electric, Ernst, E. C. Ernst, and there was documents of 19 theirs that we looked at even.
20 0
Okay.
Well, are all the Ernst records included in this 21 review as well?
22 A
Yes, sir, whatever -- because Comstock just took over 23 where Ernst left off.
24 Q
I see.
(
They are all Edison tools; but the Ernst reports were 25 A
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4334
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l 1
there, yes.
2 Q
All right.
So this is from the beginning of electrical 3
work at Braidwood up until the time of your review?,
4 A
That's correct.
5 0
Now, the results, then, list errors that you found in 6
documents for that entire period of time; correct?
7 A
That's correct.
8 Q
Mr. Seeders, of course, was not the Calibration 9
Inspector during that entire period, was he?
2 10 A
That's -- yes, he was not.
11 Q
All right.
And so a number of the documents -- document 12 errors that you identified were errors that were -- were O
13 made by Calibration Inspectors that preceded Mr.
14 Seeders?
15 A
That's correct.
16 Q
And I think you stated that you thought there were at 17 least two Comstock Calibration Inspectors before Mr.
18 Seeders; right?
19 A
That's correct.
20 Q
Do you know how many E. C.
Ernst Calibration Inspectors 21 there were?
22 A
Possibly a couple.
23 The personnel just jumped, I think, from Ernst to 24 Comstock, so the names I -- I did not know who they were 25 working for at the time.
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Sonntaa ReDortina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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4335
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l Q
But you are aware that there were at least one other 2
inspector, aside from the Comstock inspectors, that i
3 preceded Mr. Seeders, and they were Ernst inspectors?
4 A
Yes, I would say.
5 Q
All right.
Now, did you make any effort to 6
differentiate, in your listing of documents -- document 7
errors, those errors that were -- that took place, that 8
occurred, during the time that Mr. Seeders was 9
performing calibration inspections?
10 A
No, sir, I did not.
11 Q
All right.
Did you make any effort to determine, during 12 your calibration document review, those document errors
()
4 j
13 for which Mr. Seeders was personally responsible?
I 14 A
No, sir.
15 Q
Do you know whether or not, let's say, looking at Page 2 16 of 27 of that document, the upper left-hand block there 17 that states, "No ICR written for out of cal" -- do'you 18 know whether or not Mr. Seeders was the-Calibration 19 Inspector during the time that all of the t
20 out-of-calibration conditions were identified for the t
21 torque wrench listed in that box?
i 22 A
No, sir.
23 Q
Do you know whether or not Mr. Seeders was responsible 24 for issuing ICR's with respect to out-of-calibration l
25 conditions for each of the torque wrenches listed in i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois 60134 i
(312) 232-0262
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this box?
2 A
No, sir.
3 Q
And would the answer be the same as to the other 4
categories of document errors that appear displayed on 5
your summary page, Pages 2 and 3 of 27?
6 A
That's correct.
7 Q
Let's look at Applicant's Exhibit 24, and that's the Rev 8
C to the Comstock calibration procedure.
9 Do you have that, Mr. Snyder?
10 A
Yes.
11 Q
4.9.1.
12 Let's turn, if you would, please, to Paragraph (D
13 3.3.7 of the Rev C procedure, please.
14 A
Okay.
15 Q
Now, I believe this is the provision of the then 16 effective calibration procedure that you pointed to when 17 Mr. Miller asked you what provision established that an 18 ICR should be initiated for an out-of-calibration 19 condition; correct?
20 A
Yes, sir.
21 Q
Now, does it state -- in that provision of Rev C, does 22 it use the words " Quality Control Inspector" in that 23 paragraph at all?
1 24 A
No, sir, not that I see.
25 0
All right.
Now, if you look in Paragraph 3.3.6, do you
{}
4 i
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4337 O
1 see the words "QC Inspector" used there?
2 A
Yes, sir.
3 Q
All right.
And in 3.3.6, does it say that the QC 4
Inspector shall take some action with respect to the 5
calibration procedure?
6 A
Only that the inspector will witness calibration of the 7
equipment.
8 Q
Okay.
Do you see any -- any language in 3.3.7 that 9
explicitly states that it's the QC Inspector who is to 10 initiate an Inspection Correction Report?
11 A
No, sir.
12 Q
The language, in fact, states only that equipment found 13 to have an expired calibration date, et cetera, or to be 14 outside acceptable tolerance will require the initiation 15 of an Inspection Correction Report; correct?.
16 A
That's correct.
17 Q
Does it specify who will initiate an Inspection 18 Correction Report?
19 A
No, sir, although this is procedure for the inspector; 20 and if I may add that, that's --
21 Q
Sure.
22 A
-- that's what I have -- well, thct's all you have to 23 work to.
24 You are correct that it does not state that.
25 Q
All right.
I mean, it's -- it's -- it is the procedure
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Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
.. - ~.
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4338 i
(
l that you, as a Calibration Inspector, worked to?
i 2
A Yes, sir.
[
~
3 Q
All right.
But in that same Paragraph 3.3.7, does it i
4 identify a responsible party who is responsible for j
5 removing the uncalibrated equipment from s'rvice?
e 6
A The Project Manager the way this reads.
t 7
Q All right.
And the Project Manager was the construction 8
Project Manager, Mr. Rolan, at the time; correct?
9 A
Yes, sir.
l 10 Q
Let's look at 3. -- oh, excuse me.
11 Is there any statement with -- in that part of the 12 procedure, 3.3.7, with respect to the affixing of a hold l
13 tag on the tool when found in an out-of-calibration I
14 condition?
i 15 A
No, sir'.
16 Q
Look in 3.3.6.
17
'Do you see there this specific instruction to affix
[
i 18 a calibration sticker to a tool when calibrated?
l 1
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
Now, if I can ask you to.--
)
21 MR. GUILD:
You probably don't have a copy of j
22 Mr. DeWald's testimony, but if counsel could supply the 23 witness with a copy of Mr. DeWald's testimony, I want to 24 show you one of the attachments, which is an ICR.
/
25 It happens to be one of Mr. Seeders' ICR's.
i Sonntac ReDortino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134
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I'll share the document with the witness, if the 2
Chairman doesn't mind.
s 3
JUDGE GROSSMAN:
That's fine.
4~
MR. GUILD:
Okay.
5 MR. MILLER:
Can I look over your shoulder, 6
please?
7 MR. GUILD:
Sure.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Which attachment is it to 9
Mr. DeWald?
10 MR. GUILD:
It's the last one, Mr. Chairman.
4 11-I think that's 5, but I hesitate to -- yes, it says 12 5.
It should be the revised 5, I think.
I 13 BY MR. GUILD:
i l
14 Q
This is an attachment to Mr. DeWald's prefiled l
15 testimony, Mr. Snyder, and it's in part attachments to a 16 written warning that John Seeders was given in August of l
17
'84.
i 18 (Indicating.)
.19 One of those attachments is an ICR.
20 A
Uh-huh.
21 Q
And, in fact, there are several -- two ICR's, at least, 22 and I point this out, this is a -- I'm not going to ask 4
23 you about the details of Mr. Seeders' ICR.
24 But is that an Inspection Correction Report, the 25 document I have shown you?
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134
',j (312) 232-0262
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4340 O
1 A
Yes, sir.
2 Q
Okay.
Now, it states at the bottom that it is Rev B, 3
effective date 1/5/84; correct?
i 4
A Yes.
5 0
And do you know whether or not that was the revision of 6
the document, the ICR document, that was effective at 7
the time Mr. Seeders performed calibration inspections?
8 A
No, I do not know.
There could have been a correction 9
between this rev and his ICR.
10 Is that what you are asking?
11 Q
No, no.
12 Do you know whether or not Mr. Seeders performed 13 calibration inspections in January of 1984?
14 A
Yes, sir, he did.
15 Q
All right.
And that, from the face of the document, 16 appears to be when that revision of the form was 17 effective; correct?
18 A
That's correct.
19 Q
All right.
And ICR's of that revision number were 20 subject tc your calibration document review, were they 21 not?
22 A
A few of them, yes.
23 Q
Okay.
Now, just look at the document and -- and is 24 this -- does this appear to be the Inspection Correction
()
Report format that was employed during the time that Mr.
25 1
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4341 4
r~T U
1 Seeders performed calibration inspections?
2 A
Yes, sir, I would say so.
3 Q
Okay.
And are -- were there any material changes made 4
to the ICR format that you can identify, looking at this 5
document, since January of '84?
6 A
Yes, sir, they have changed it quite a bit.
7 Q
Okay.
Well, let me ask you about those as we go along, 8
then.
9 This particular document is addressed to whom and 10 from whom?
11 A
To Frank Rolan from John Seeders.
12 Q
All right.
Again, Mr. Rolan was the Project Manager?
O 13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
And Mr. Seeders was the QC Inspector?
15 A
Yes, sir.
16 Q
Now, do you understand that it was the practice, during 17 the time Mr. Seeders did calibration inspections, from 18 the documents you reviewed, that the ICR's would be 19 written from the inspector who initiated to Mr. Rolan, 20 the Project Manager?
21 A
Yes, I think that's the way they always signed them.
22 Q
Okay.
And that is pursuant to the procedure, is it not, 23 the provision I read to you, where it stated that the 1
24 Project Manager was responsible for controlling the 25 out-of-calibration tool?
{}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4342 Ab 1
A Yeah.
He -- it says that I think he's to remove the --
2 remove the equipment from the field -- let's see --
I 3
from service and return the equipment immediately to the 4
warehouse, yes, sir.
5 Q
All right.
Well, isn't the purpose of an ICR to see 6
that that action takes place, that the equipment is 7
removed from the field?
8 A
Well, this equipment here, I think they are actually 9
talking a tool, a torque wrench or --
10 Q
Right.
11 A
-- or wipe stripper in this case.
12 Q
Within the scope of the calibration discipline, control O
13 the uncalibrated tool?
1 14 A
Well, I don't know if -- I would say the tool would 15 already be removed from service to write the ICR, in my 16 opinion.
17 That's the case whenever I write one or ever since 18 I have written one; but, you see, you wouldn't write 19 this to -- you wouldn't know you had a bad tool until it 20 came back from the field.
21 It's a matter of wording in this procedure, that --
22 I think I stated earlier, that they were vague in some 23 places.
24 Q
Okay.
The point of my question is this:
(}
The operative language from Provisior. 3.3.7 of the 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4343 1
procedure that I read to you states, " Inspection 2
Correction Reports will identify the items which have 3
not been calibrated, denote the date of calibration 4
expiration, and direct the Project Manager to remove the 5
equipment from service and to return the equipment 6
immediately to the warehouse for storage and 7
recalibration."
8 And the question, again, is:
9 The purpose for directing the ICR to the Project 10 Manager is so that he will do as the procedure calls for 11 him to do; correct?
12 A
Yes; and I think in -- in this 3.3.7 that is wording --
O 13 this is for an overdue tool --
14 Q
Okay.
15 A
-- in my opinion, because it is -- it does say, " Denote 16 the date of calibration expiration, and to get the tool 17 out of the field," because an overdue tool in the field 18 is as bad as having -- well, not quite as bad as having i
19 one out of calibration, but still it's a problem.
20 0
Okay.
But the same paragraph, Mr. Snyder, up above 21 there, also refers to tool found to be outside the 22 acceptable tolerances?
23 A
Yes.
24 Q
That's an out-of-calibration condition, is it not?
25 A
Yes, sir.
w Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4344 O
1 Q
So whether it be an expired calibration or an 2
. out-of-calibration condition, the point, though, is that 3
the ICR directs the Project Manager, under the 4
procedure, to control the tool?
5 A
Yes; to remove the equipment from service, yes.
6 Q
Okay.
Now, again, looking at the attachments to Mr.
7 DeWald's testimony, the -- just an example of an ICR, do 8
you notice that, under the Corrective Action block, 9
there is a description of action taken here?
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 Q
.And here it reads, "All research completed, L. K. C.
12 number."
O 13 That's a tool number, is it not?
14 A
Yes; A1647.
15 Q
"Not used in the field since date of last calibration."
16 A
Uh-huh.
17 Q
Now, the block is signed by, it appears to be, Oscar 18 Larson?
19 A
Yes, sir.,
20 Q
And it.is over the signature -- over the title 21 Construction Representative.
22 Was Mr. Larson, in fact, a Construction 23 Representative?
24 A
Yes, sir, I believe he was a foreman.
(~T 25 Q
All right.
So do you understand that, in this case, the V
Sonntaa Recortina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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ICR of Mr. Seeders here, it was -- the corrective action 2
was a research by the construction foreman to determine 3
whether or not the tool had, in fact, been used in the 4
field?
5 A
That's what he's saying here, yes.
6 Q
All right.
And is that action -- that corrective l,
7 action, does that represent the -- the evaluation that i
8 you understood the calibration procedure to call for?
9 A
Yes, this craft man is making that determination.
10 Q
All right.
Now, that's not being made by an engineer, l
11 is it?
12 A
No, sir.
j 13 Q
And-it's not being made by Mr. Seeders, the Quality f
14 Control Inspector, is it?
i l
15 A
No, sir.
j 16 Q
It's being made by a craft foreman?
17 A
Yes.
18 Q
All right, sir.
l 19 Now, is that disposition of an NCR -- or that i
20 corrective action, I should state, is that typical or 21 atypical of the ICR processing that you reviewed when 22 you performed your calibrations review?
I 23 A
I'd say that's typical of these old ICR's.
24 Q
That the craft would do the evaluation in the field?
i 25 A
Yes.
j Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
_.., _.. -., ~. -.. -.... _ _ _., _,...
4346 O
1 Q
Okay.
That was not a function that was being performed 2
by the Calibration Inspector, Mr. Seeders, at this time, 3
was it?
4 A
No, sir.
That's -- in my opinion, that's never our job, 5
or was never his job or my job.
6 Q
Okay.
3.3.7.1 of the Rev C procedure is the next page.
7 "For equipment noted on the Inspection Correction 8
Report exceeding the acceptable tolerances, an 9
evaluation shall be made and validity of previous 10 inspections or test results determined."
11 Now, for the ICR I showed you, and typically as 12 well, that evaluation was performed by the craft G
k/
13 foreman, was it not?
14 A
Yes.
15 Q
Now, Mr. Miller asked you some questions'from a dccument i
16 I'm going to give you back, Mr. Snyder, and that's the 17 ICR log.
18 (Indicating.)
19 A
Okay.
20 Q
I believe you stated that that's just an excerpt from 21 the ICR log; is that correct?
22 A
That's correct.
23 0
The ICR log itself is more voluminous than what you have 24 before you?
25 A
Many times bigger than this.
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
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4347 O
1 Q
All right.
The ICR log you have before you reflects the 2
logging of ICR's between the dates of January 18, 1983, 3
and December 15, 1984; does it not?
4 A
Yes, sir.
5 Q
Okay.
Do you know whether or not, during that period of 6
time, Mr. Seeders, according to that log, initiated any 7
ICR's for calibration inspection discrepancies?
8 A
Yes, sir, I have s,een his name in here.
9 Q
All right.
And you understand that the listing of Mr.
10 Seeders' name in that log denotes that an ICR was 11 initiated by him that was duly recorded in the log by 12 the ICR clerk?
13 A
Yes, sir.
14 MR. GUILD:
All right.
Mr. Miller, there's a 15 proposal for a stipulation.
16 MR. MILLER:
Okay.
17 MR. GUILD:
I would ask the Applicant to 18 stipulate that looking at the tabbed pages, which I 19 understood by counsel -- from counsel were the pages on 20 which he, someone working with him, identified Mr.
21 Seeders' name, that there are 61 entries reflecting 22 ICR's during that period of time by which Mr. Seeders' 23 name is listed, indicating that he initiated such ICR's.
24 MR. MILLER:
Subject to counting them up, I'd 25 certainly be prepared to stipulate to that, although I
(}
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
)
4348
(_s) 1 had understood that one of the purposes of the 2
stipulation was to verify that, in fact, no ICR had been 3
initiated by Mr. Seeders for the out-of-calibration 4
occasions that I examined Mr. Snyder on last week.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, I won't agree to that, 6
because at least one of them was in there, which he 7
testified was not.
8 It was part of that multiple ICR involving -- if I 9
have to get that number --
10 MR. MILLER:
It's 5663 or 5633.
I recall the 11 ICR.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I think it was 9702.
13 MR. GUILD:
Yes, it was, Mr. Chairman.
14 THE WITNESS:
That's the torque wrench 15 number.
16 MR. MILLER:
Right.
17 But there were --
18 MR. GUILD:
Right.
19 MR. MILLER:
On the other ones, the purpose of 20 review, as I understood it, was to verify that, in 21 fact -- for the calibration inspections that Mr. Snyder 22 testified to, based on his review of the records last 23 week before the Board, that, in fact, the ICR log does 24 i
not reflect that an ICR was initiated.
p, 25 MR. GUILD:
Well, what I am prepared to do --
uJ Sonntag Reportina Service. Ltd.
Geneva,. Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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4349 1
I have a different subject for a stipulation than what I 2
just proposed to counsel.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, okay.
4 J.s far as that goes, I think that would be i
5 preferable than getting that big document in, so 6
whatever the number is, I would hope counsel would be 7
able to get together and stipulate to that number.
8 We won't hold anyone to the 61 -- well, we would 9
hold Mr. Guild to 61, but we won't hold you to that, Mr.
10 Miller; and I assume Staff might want to be in on this, 11 too, perhaps not.
It's just a numerical problem.
12 MR. GUILD:
And what I would --
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
That's up to you, Mr. Barry.
14 Pardon?
15 MR. GUILD:
What I would be prepared to do, 16 Mr. Chairman, I won't stipulate to the conclusion that 17 Mr. Miller wants to reach for reasons, among those, that 18 the Chairman just observed, but I will stipulate that --
19 that Mr. Seeders' name does not appear, associated with 20 an ICR, on the instances -- in the instances where Mr.
21 Miller cited, and those were 1, 2, 3, 4 in number, if 22 you leave out the one where the NCR was listed.
23 And that's not as a result of a review, but it's 24 simply as a result of accepting his representation that r^T 25 that's the result of his review.
%-)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4350 (7
%)
1 Frankly, the review ptccess is -- I won't have to 2
go through every page to the document to crrive at a 3
firm conclusion, because they are not sequentially 4
dated, and there seems to be some variation in the 5
reporting of that data, but I don't dispute that.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, whatever counsel is 7
prepared to -- are prepared to stipulate to, we'll 8
accept.
1 9
So you may proceed now, assuming that Mr. Miller 10 will agree on a numoer with you, and whatever else you 11 want to stipulate when you bring it to the Board, we'll 12 approve your stipulation.
4 13 MR. GUILD:
All right, sir.
14 BY MR. GUILD:
15 Q
Now, let me be clear about this ICR log.
16 The inspector didn't write the log out; correct?
i 17 A
That's correct.
18 Q
The log is written by someone who performs the logging 19 responsibility, and I think you referred to that person 20 as the ICR clerk?
21 A
Yes, sir.
22 Q
Okay.
And I believe that person, at one point in time, 23 was Tonya Rolan?
24 A
Yes, sir.
25 Q
And at a previous point in time, it was som,eone else who Sonntac ReDortino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4351 0
1 escapes me right now?
2 A
Jackie Joyce was after Tonya; and she's still doing it.
3 Q
Miss Joyce is doing it now and previously it was Miss 4
Rolan?
5 A
Tonya was doing it when I hired in in '84.
6 Q
Okay.
And Miss Joyce did it in some of the logs that 7
appear before you, did she not?
8 A
Yes, sir, I would say.
9 Q
Can you tell who did what?
10 A
I don't know their writing.
Eo, I could not -- well, I 11 can tell Tonya's writing here.
There's several writings 12 there.
/
O k'
13 So if --
14 Q
All right.
15 A
-- the girls are sick or go for a week or something --
16 Q
Well, when the girls are sick or gone, does someone else 17 perform the logging?
18 A
Yes, sir.
19 Q
Do you know who that someone else might be?
20 A
No, I really could not say.
It's whoever -- another 21 girl that has been apparently trained to do it.
22 Q
Okay.
Is that a certified inspection function?
23 A
No, sir.
24 0
Is that -- does the logger, the ICR clerk or the clerk's 25 stand in, date and sign the entry?
)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4352
()
1 A
No, sir, not that I see here.
2 Q
So other than recognizing the handwriting, you could not 3
tell by the entry -- the substance of the entry itself, 4
who made the entry?
5 A
That's correct, yes, sir.
6 Q
All right.
Now, I take it that logging of the ICR in 7
the ICR log is not an act that is governed by even the 8
vague Rev C of the calibration procedure?
It's not set 9
out in that procedure, is it?
10 A
No, sir, 11 Q
And when you reviewed the document with Mr. Miller last 12 week, I believe it was fair to say that you had to do 13 some interpretation to figure out what the data meant 14 that appeared in the various boxes?
15 A
That's correct.
16 0
It's not self-explanatory, for example, what the 1,2, 3, 17 4 different date blocks stand for?
18 A
Well, I could say pretty well what 3 of the 4 are for, 19 but --
20 0
Okay.
They have -- one says the completed --
21 A
Yes, sir.
22 I would say that's the close date, the closing of 23 the ICR, although that would be helpful if it says 24
" closed" there.
25 Q
'It could mean the date they completed the corrective Ronntag Recorting Se rvice, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4353
(
i 1
action, couldn't it?
2 A
Possibly, although it says "date from construction," so 3
there could -- should be no corrective action after the 4
construction turns it back into the office.
5 Q
All right.
Well, some -- some ICR's called for making 6
revisions to documents as opposed to making revisions by 7
the craft in the field, did they not?
8 A
I would say yes.
9 Q
And as to those, construction could return it and there 10 could be further corrective action required by someone 11 other than construction; cay, quality control?
12 A
I'm sure, yes.
There's all kinds of situations in here.
>()
13 Q
Okay.
And there's other possible -- possible 14 explanations for the other dates that appear in there, 4
i 15 but you have to interpret them, don't you?
16 A
Yes.
Me not working with it, I couldn't say exactly.
i 17 Q
Okay.
Now, there seem to be data that appears in the 18 comments section, and the comments section is where you 19 found Mr. Seeders' name listed where it was listed; 20 correct?
21 A
Yes, sir.
i 22 Q
Now, does the word " comments" heading that column stand 23 for a clearly-specified entry that's required in that 24 portion of the log?
(^)
25 A
It's not clear, no.
It could be anything in comments,
()
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4354 O
1 the way I interpret that.
2 Q
All right.
And it would be subject to the practice and 3
interpretation of the document -- the ICR clerk or the 4
clerk's stand in what data got put in the comments 5
portion?
6 A
That's correct.
-7 0
Or perhaps subject to what the direction was from 8
supervision of the ICR clerk?
9 A
That's correct.
10 Q
Did you make a review to determine that the comments 11 section in each instance reflected a complete and 12 accurate set of data for that particular entry?
13 A
I don't know how complete or accurate it is, no, sir.
I 14 don't know.
15 0
Okay.
Similarly, the description block, which appears 16 on the left-hand side of the document:
17 Do you know whether or not the title description 18 has a clear and specified meaning to the -- under the 19 procedures for the logging of ICR's?
20 A
Well, on the ICR, you do have a description block, which 21 looks like here they used the comments section and the 22 description block because the description is not large 23 enough.
24 Q
Okay.
25 A
Now, if I -- if I had to improve this log, I would make Sonntaa ReDortino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4355 O
1 the description block larger and actually spell it out 2
and initiation -- the inspector who initiated this.
You 3
know, that would clarify it.
4 0
Okay.
But the description -- the term " description" 5
that appears over the description block is not 6
self-explanatory as to the exact date that that is to 7
appear in that block, is it?
i8 A
That's correct.
9 Q
And you would agree that is subject to the l
10 interpretation of the ICR clerk or the clerk's l
11 supervisor to determine what to put in the description 12 block?
13 A
Yes, sir, she reads tr..
ICR and puts her own description 14 in there.
15 Q
All right.
And did you verify, in each instance that 16 the description block, either taken by itself or in 17 conjunction with the remarks block, fully and accurately 18 set forth the data from the -- for the respective entry?
19 A
well, I can't say how accurate it is.
20 It's -- it's more or less a log to get you to the 21 document, which should explain everything to you.
22 Q
All right.
But as I understand it, the document -- the 23 purpose for which you were being examined on Friday from 24 thedocumenthastoestablishwhetherornot, in fact, 25 an ICR had ever been initiated; correct?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134
-(312) 232-0262 s
4 i
4356 l
1 A
Right.
2 Q
You weren't given the entire. log of ICR's to go through l
3 to arrive at that conclusion, were you?
[
4 A
No, no, sir.
j 5
Q Now, I also understood that the process, physical l
6 process, that took place to get the data to the ICR l
7 clerk was that whoever initiated the ICR would place it f
j in a basket in the vault for filing later; correct?
8 l
9 A
The ICR itself?
10 Q
Yes.
I i
11 A~
It's quite possible that they did go to the basket.
l 12 If an inspector needed -- needed it right away --
13 needed a number, I'm sure he would hand it to the clerk 14 and maybe she would get right on it, you know, while he l
15 waited for the number.
i 16 Q
All right.
i 17 A
And that's basically the way it works today.
18 Q
Is you get a number when you originate it?
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
Okay.
But that's not -- is that the way it was always i
21 done, to your knowledge?
22 A
No, sir, I would say not.
23 Back then, maybe you didn't need the ICR number for 24 some reason.
You could put it in the basket, and the l
25 clerk would pick it up and process it during the day, or I
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312)-
232-0262
4357 O
1 you could always go back at the end of the day, "What's 2
my ICR number for such and such"; but I don't know every 3
case.
4 Q
Okay.
Well, isn't it evident, from your review of that 5
ICR log, Mr. Snyder, that since the numbers of the ICR's 6
are sequential down the left-hand column, but the date 7
that appears next to that number is not sequential, 8
sometimes a week later --
9 A
Uh-huh.
10 0
-- sometimes days later, that there wasn't a uniform 11 practice of logging the ICR in in chronological order, 12 if you will?
13 A
Yes, that's true.
14 I don't understand how this first date -- the dates 15 aren't chronological.
16 0
Isn't it evident that somebody held the document back 17 from either being logged by date or from having the 18 sequential numbers assigned to the document?
19 A
Yes, I would say it's obvious date to construction is 20 after the first date in this left-hand column, so you 21 would have to assume that the -- I would -- this 22 left-hand column is the date the ICR was written.
23 Q
All right.
Well, it's the date the ICR got a number, 24 perhaps?
25 A
Well, that's true.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4358 O
1 It could mean one of two or three things, I guess.
2 Q
All right.
So it could mean the day that the inspector 3
wrote up the ICR?
That's one possibility, correct?
4 A
Uh-huh.
5 0
It could mean the date that the ICR was put in the i
6 ICR -- the vault basket for filing; correct?
j 7
A Yes.
8 Q
And it could mean the date that the ICR clerk got around 1
9 to taking it out of the basket and putting a sequential 3
10 number on it?
It could have been that, too?
11 A
Yes, I suppos'e it could have been.
i 12 Q
Perhaps there are other explanations as well?
O 13 A
Yeah.
It's hard to explain that one.
14 Q
Okay.
Now, isn't it -- isn't it true, Mr. Snyder, that 15 over time at Comstock, there have been considerable 16 document retrievability and filing problems?
17 A
Yes, sir.
18 Q
And, in part, those document retrievability and filing 1
19 problems have led to a major corrective action program, 20 the Quality Control Document Review Program, at
'21 Comstock; correct?
22 A
Yes.
I think we would have document review, anyway, 23 with all plants; but there has been problems, and still 24 may be problems of documentation.
25 Q
Well, aside from their other problems of documentation,
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Sonntag Reoortina Service. Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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4359 1
such as perhaps incomplete documents or documents with 2
erroneous entries on them -- but lay those aside, and 3
you do agree that there have been problems with the 4
retrievability and filing of documents?
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
And at times, aren't those problems manifested by the 7
inability to find the document you are looking for in 8
the quality control records vault at Comstock?
9 A
That's correct.
10 Q
Even using an index, such as an ICR log, as an aid in 11 finding a document, sometimes those documents just can't 12
~
be found?
.]
13 A
That's correct.
14 Q
Do you know where the filing and retrievability problems 15 occur that led to those conditions?
16 A
Well, too many different people, I would say, No. 1, 17 working in that vault area; too many people that never 18 handled paper work like that, off-the-street people that
~
19 are hired, trained probably a day or two, and then they 20 try it on their own, and it's just going to happen; 21 and -- and when I first got there, there was the basket 22 setting there on the counter that -- well, it was kind 23 of up on the shelf.
I had to reach up,'anyway, to put 24 my paper in it; and that was where you put your 25 inspections for the day, and they were logged -- filed s
l Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4360 O
1 that evening or the next day.
The girls would file 2
them.
3 But it's just a lot of paper going in and out of' 4
there, which kind of shocked me when I got there, 5
because that wasn't the case in my last job.
6 That's -- I realize it was maybe a little different 7
contract there; but it's just a lot of paper work in and 8
out.
9 Q
Okay.
Given what you know about document filing and 10 retrievability problems at Comstock, Braidwood, Mr.
11 Snyder, would you conclude, necessarily, from the 12 failure to find a document through using the filing 13 system, to retrieve it, that'that document did not ever 14 exist?
15 A
No, you couldn't conclude that, if it wasn't where you 16 looked first.
They -- it could be any place in there.
17 Q
All right.
Isn't it possible that, in the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 18 instances that Mr. Miller asked you about where you 19 identified torque wrench out-of-calibration conditions, 20 that in those conditions -- in those specific 21 circumstances, where Mr. Seeders says he wrote an ICR, 1
22 that he wrote an ICR?
23 A
That's possible.
24 0
Where he applied a hold tag, he applied a hold tag?
25 A
That's possible.
Sonntaa Recortino Service, Ltd.
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(
l Q
And that those ICR's that were possibly written, as Mr.
2 Seeders indicated on his Form 77's, just somehow never 3
made it properly through the filing, logging and 4
retrievability system?
5 A
That's possible.
6 Q
If -- let me just sort of run you -- ask you about this 7
as an opinion question.
8 If -- if I were a Calibrations Inspector and I were 9
filling out -- and I got a -- a report back that a tool 10 was uncalibrated -- out of calibration -- say one of 11 those Phillips Getschow torque wrench reports such as 12 are discussed in -- attached to --
O 13 A
Uh-huh.
14 Q
-- Applicant's Exhibit 30 and others --
15 A
Uh-huh.
16 Q
-- I got that back, and let's assume that I wanted to 17 falsify documents -- I'm a Calibrations Inspector, and I 18 want to have the record indicate falsely that for that 19 tool that was out of calibration, according to the 20 Getschow report, Comstock's documents would reflect, 21 instead, that the tool was in calibration, was 22 acceptable.
23 A
Uh-huh.
24 Q
Now, if I wanted to do that, to falsify that inspection
{)
document -- and let's say we're taking Applicant's 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312:
232-0262
4362 OV 1
Exhibit 30 as an example -- let's take another one.
I 2
want to find one that says ICR on it.
3
. Okay.
Let's take Applicant's Exhibit 32 as an 4
example.
5 Now, here on the first line for June 6,
'84, Mr.
6 Seeders writes, "Out of calibration, ICR written," and a' 7
date; correct?
8 A
Uh-huh.
9 Q
All right.
Now, if I were a Calibrations Inspector and 10 I wanted to falsify a document, and let's say I had a 11 Phillips Getschow report on that date that torque wrench 12 was out of calibration, wouldn't 7 simply show in the
{sT
/
13 remarks section on the Form 77 that the tool had been 14 recalibrated and found acceptable?
15 A
Yes, that's correct.
16 Q
And by writing in the remarks section instead, as Mr.
17 Seeders did, for June 6,
'84, "Out of calibration, ICR 18 written," wouldn't I document the out-of-calibration 19 condition of that tool?
20 A
Yes, on the 77 you would.
21 Q
All right.
And wouldn't I then create the documentary 22 basis for a document reviewer such as yourself, after 23 the fact going back and saying, " Gee, on June 6, 1984, 24 Seeders says he wrote an ICR.
There should be an ICR 25 for that out-of-calibration condition"?
O Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
= _
4363 Ov 1
A That's correct.
2 Q
And that is not a specific example of one you looked at, 3
but that's an example of how you got to the log and 4
looked to see whether or not there was, indeed, an ICR 5
written for that date?
6 A
That's correct.
7 We knew we had to start with the log, because we 8
was going to have to bounce off of it all the time.
I 9
mean, if we didn't go through the log first -- that's 10 correct.
11 Q
Well, if Mr. Seeders had wanted to falsify documents 12 and -- and falsely reflect that that tool was, in fact, O
13 in calibration, he would have no reason to leave a trail 14 that you could find later and that -- by writing on the 15 Form 77 that he found it out of calibration and 16 initiated an ICR?
17 A
That's correct.
18 Q
Let's say Mr. Seeders was just lazy and let's say Mr.
19 Seeders simply wanted to avoid the work of filling out 20 an ICR as a piece of paper.
21 If he wanted to simply avoid that extra work of i
22 filling out an ICR, wouldn't he also have simply left j
23 the Form 77 line to show that no ICR had been
\\
24 originated?
25 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, I don't -- this
{}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 l
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1 examination of Mr. Snyder as to what Mr. Seeders would 2
have done seems to me to be --
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Would he have been or 4
couldn't he ever been, Mr. Guild?
5 What's your question?
6 MR. GUILD:
Well, let me ask it couldn't he 7
have.
8 BY MR. GUILD:
9 Q
Couldn't he have simply, in that case, Mr. Snyder --
10 have left the line blank and indicated, therefore, that 11 no ICR was called for?
12 A
Yes, he could have.
O 13 Q
And if he was just lazy and didn't want to issue an ICR 14 and left the line blank to show that the tool was in 15 calibration, you wouldn't have any paper trail to follow 16 to suggest that an ICR was not, in fact, initiated, 17 would you?
18 A
Excuse me.
The only paper trial would be the Phillips 19 Getschow report.
20 If it was a reject report, there would be a reject 21 piece of paper there.
22 Q
All right.
But you used the ICR -- you used the Form 23 77's as the basis for determining whether or not ICR's 24 had been originated; correct?
()
That was where we went, to the 77, after the ICR log, 25 A
Sonntac Reportino Service, Ltd.
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4365 1
yes, and, you know, it all just led to the vault 2
package, yes.
3 Q
Right.
4 But, I mean, if someone was to try to cover their 5
tracks, that they had not done what they were supposed 6
to do per procedure and issued an ICR, it would have --
7 they could easily have -- have simply left the Fo'rm 77 8
entry either blank or showing that the tool was in a 9
calibrated state?
10 A
That's correct.
11 That remarks section is just what it says.
There's 12 no place that tells you you have to write anything in 13 there; but to satisfy the story later or whatever, it's 14 best to make a statement there.
15 Q
Okay.
Well, in fact, if I could ask you to turn in 16 your -- in your Rev C to the back of the Rev C, where' 17 the Form 77 appears.
18 Aren't there instructions on how to fill out a Form 19 77 there?
20 A
Yes -- let's see here.
21 Yes, basic instructions; right.
22 Q
All right.
Does it say anything, in the basic 23 instructions for filling out a Form 77, as to what you 24 are supposed to put in the remarks block?
25 A
No, sir.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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4366 O
1 Q
Does it state anywhere in the instructions for the Form 2
77's completion that one of the required data entries on 3
the Form 77 is whether or not an ICR was initiated?
4 A
No, sir.
5 Q
How about the date that an ICR was issued?
6 A
No, sir.
7 Q
Again, the procedure called for the inspector to simply 8
exercise judgment and interpretation to figure out what 9
the remarks were supposed to be put on the Form 77?
10 A
Right, you could write anything.
11 Q
Either judgment, interpretation or direction from one's 12 supervision as to what was supposed to be put on the O
13 form?
14 A
That's correct.
15 Q
In Mr. Seeders' case, of course, he didn't have any 16 supervision; no lead and no supervisor who was certified 17 in calibrations?
18 A
That's true.
19 Q
And you didn't, either?
20 A
Correct.
21 Q
You had to make those kinds of interpretive decisions 22 yourcelf?
23 A
'Je s.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Why don't we take a 25 10-minute break now, Mr. Guild.
Sonntaa ReDortina Service, Ltd.
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1 MR. GUILD:
Yes, sir.
2 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 3
the hearing was resumed as follows:)
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
We're back in session.
5 MR. GUILD:
May I proceed, Mr. Chairman?
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Sure.
7 BY MR. GUILD:
8 Q
Mr. Snyder, I believe you identified the fact that there 9
were instances of vagueness in the Rev C to the 10 calibration procedure; correct?
11 A
That's correct.
12 Q
And that there were areas that are gray that require O
13 interpretation and judgment in order to implement those 14 vague areas of the procedure; correct?
15 A
That's correct.
16 Q
In the absence of policy statement, written direction, 17 that interpretation has to be made at the direction of 18 some supervision or, in the absence of supervision, by 19 the inspector himself?
20 A
That's correct.
21 Q
All right.
Now, in March of 1985, when you talked to 22 the NRC the second time or perhaps the third time, but 23 the March 29th occasion, you stated to the NRC that the 24 Calibration Department was all messed up.
[}
Was that your opinion, referring to the. time when 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
.. ~.,
4368
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1 you took over the department, John Seeders' time in 2
August, September, of 1984?
3 A
That's correct.
4 Q
You stated then to the NRC, again, March of '84, "I know 5
he" -- this is with reference to Rick Saklak -
"got 6
John out of there.
He was railroaded out.
It wasn't 7
John's fault because the department was messed up.
8 Nobody was certified in that area.
Rick had a grudge 9
against John so that he got him moved out."
10 Does that accurately state your opinion at that 11 time?
12 A
I think so, yes.
13 Q
Now, did you -- were you aware, at the time, that Mr.
14 DeWald had intended to fire Mr. Seeders, to terminate 15 him, at the time you made this March,
'85, statement to 16 the NRC?
17 MR. MILLER:
I'm going to object to the form 18 of the question.
19 I believe that that lacks foundation.
The 20 question -- as I understand the question, you said in 21 March of 1985, Mr. DeWald intended to --
22 MR. GUILD:
No.
Let me restate it.
23 BY MR., GUILD:
24 Q
Were you aware when you, Mr. Snyder, said to the NRC --
25 expressed those opinions to the NRC, in March of 1985, Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4369 1
that Mr. DeNald had previously intended to fire Mr.
2 Seeders?
3 A
Well, that had -- he didn't fire him -- or maybe he did 4
from the QC Department; but that had already happened --
5 Q
Right.
6 A
-- in September of '84.
7 Q
That's what I'm focusing on now.
8 You are aware that he was transferred October 1, 9
1984, to Engineering and out of the QC Department --
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 Q
-- he, John Seeders?
12 Were you aware at that time, though, September,
!(
13
- October,
'84, that it was Mr. DeWald's intention not to 14 transfer Mr. Seeders but to fire him?
15 A
I think that was the intention; although he never did 16 confer with me on the issue, Mr. DeWald.
17 I -- I think that was.what I thought, as an 18 inspector, that would happen.
19 Q
Were you aware that Mr. Saklak had attempted to get Mr.
20 DeWald to fire Mr. Seeders?
21 A
I'm sure that was Rick's intent.
LR 22 Q
Rick,Saklak?
23 A
Rick Saklak's.
24 Q
In point of fact, I submit that, of course, Mr. Seeders 25 was not terminated, he was transferred to engineering.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 i
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4370 0
1 And you are aware that was the outcpme, he was 2
transferred?
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
Nere you aware, in March of '85, though, when you talked 5
to the NRC about whose fault things were in the 6
department, that Mr. DeNald had actually prepared a 7
termination letter for Mr. Seeders stating that he was 8
going to terminate him for -- he, Mr. DeWald, was going 9
to terminate Mr. Seeders because of the mess in the 10 Calibration Department?
11 A
I was not aware of that.
12 Q
I submit that there in evidence is a letter from Mr.
13 DeWald to that effect, and that Edison, Commonwealth 14 Edison, suggested that transfer might be considered as 15 an alternative.
16 In your opinion -- strike that.
17 Was it your opinion, in -- in March of '85, Mr.
18 Snyder, given what you knew at that time, that it was 19 appropriate to have. terminated Mr. Seeders for the 20 Calibration Department problems?
21 A
That it would have been appropriate to do that?
22 Q
Yes.
23 A
Well, what I seen at the time, yes.
24 Q
Did you know at the time that -- you didn't know at the 25 time that they intended to terminate Mr. Seeders?
O Sonntaa Reportino Service, Ltd.
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1 A
No, sir, I didn't know.
2 Q
Did you know at the time that it wasn't Mr. Seeders' 3
fault, as you stated to the NRC?
4 A
Well, let me say again that I did feel like that was not 5
John's sole -- the responsibility of John alone; and 6
maybe when I just answered your question that I thought 7
he should have been fired, that could have been -- that 8
statement -- that answer could have went either way.
9 I -- you know, I agree that it, in my opinion, was 10 not totally John's fault for the problem, so -- I had 11 nothing against John at all.
12 So I don't know if I can take an answer back,
~'N 13 either, but, you know, your question may have confused 14 me a hair bit there.
15 Q
Let me put it this way.
16 What I'm asking you is, first of all, to reflect on 17 what your opinion was in March of '85 when you --
18 A
Well --
19 Q
-- expressed that to the NRC, given what you knew then, 20 and --
21 A
Well, I knew as much then as I know now, basically.
22 0
You now know that they intended to fire Mr. Seeders?
23 A
Well, that's correct.
24 That's what I thought would happen in September of 25
'84; but, again, I stated there that that was not O
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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(_/
1 totally John's fault.
2 He was at fault, in my opinion, as an inspector in 3
some areas there; but as I stated earlier, he did not 4
have proper backing of the management, and so it could 5
not be totally his fault.
6 Q
Well, did you -- were you asked to determine whether or 7
not the document deficiencies that you identified were 8
John Seeders' fault?
9 A
No, sir.
10 Q
And were you able to determine whether those document 11 deficiencies were Mr. Seeders' fault?
~
12 A
The only thing I could determine is what I seen.
O k/
13 I did -- I seen the majority of John's work, 14 because he was probably the inspector more than any of 15 the others.
He was there two or three years, the 16 Calibration Inspector, so he had the majority of the 17 work there.
i 18 Q
But as to, let's say, for example, the torque wrench 19 document deficiencies, some of those listed items in 20 your report, Exhibit 28, some of those Mr. Seeders 21 didn't have anything to do with at all, did he?
22 A
That's correct.
23 Q
And some of the ones that Mr. Seeders was associated 24 with in point of time were instances where Mr. Seeders 25 said he issued an ICR?
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l A
That's correct.
On the 77, yes, he did say that.
2 Q
All right.
On the Form 77?
3 A
Yes.
4 Q
And you can't determine, can you, as you sit here today, 5
that in those instances -- even in those instances, the 6
five that were pointed out, an ICR was not, in fact, 7
issued?
8 A
That's right.
9 0
So do you know whether or not any of the document 10 deficiencies that are listed in your review, with 11 respect to torque wrenches, were, indeed, Mr. Seeders' 12 fault?
O V
13 A
No, I don't know that, not -- not this -- based on this 14 information here.
15 (Indicating.)
16 Q
Has -- to your knowledge, has an inspector at Comstock 17 ever made documentation errors other than Mr. Seeders, 18 assuming Mr. Seeders made these?
19 A
Yes, sir, I think everyone makes errors in the 20 documentation.
21 That's why now we have a Level 2 review, hopefully 22 to catch them, and then more people review them after 23 that.
24 Q
Have you yourself made errors in documentation?
25 A
Oh, yes, sir.
O Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 Q
Have you been disciplined for a ny of the errors that you 2
made?
3 A
No.
Errors -- I've caught myself at a couple.
I've 4
wrote myself up a couple of times over the past couple 5
years just to save it from being written up later.
6 I mean, you know, there's -- you are not going to 7
be fired, hopefully, for making a minor paper error.
I 8
mean --
9 Q
All right.
You -- you, I think, candidly on Friday 10 caught yourself failing to initial and date an entry on 11 a document that was in your handwriting; correct?
12 A
Yes, sir.
13 I've -- I go through thousands of pieces of paper 14 in a six-month time, and it's going to happen.
15 You should initial and date ever comment you make.
16 Even in that remarks section'of that 77 I do; but I was 17 taught just to always do that; and why I didn't there, I 18 cannot explain.
19 Q
I think you said, also candidly, that, say, for a torque 20 wrench that's supposed to be calibrated on a weekly 21 basis, that there are times when, if a weekend falls at 22 the end of the 7-day period, you wait until the 23 following workday to perform the calibration; correct?
24 A
Well, the calibration could be performed on the Friday 25 or even Saturday, but that was by Phillips Getschow, you Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4375 1
see, and we would not accept the paper work until Monday 2
morning, so you cannot back date that inspection.
3 Q
Well, didn't you state that there were, in fact, times 4
when torque wrenches went for more than the prescribed 5
week without being recalibrated, but that you didn't 6
initiate an ICR when the reason for the recalibration --
7 for the failure to recalibrate was that it just happened 8
to be an intervening weekend?
9 A
Yes, sir, I made that comment on my 77 in the remarks 10 section, that the tool was on hold from 6/12 to 6/14, 11 whatever; you know, QC hold.
12 Q
But a strict interpretation of the procedure by someone
\\_
13 other than yourself might call for initiating an ICR in 14 those cases instead of just noting it for the Form 77; 15 correct?
i 16 A
Well, if the tool was calibrated on Saturday, it would 17 be self-explanatory, I would think.
18 I know when John was doing his 77, there's a little 19 asterisk on the back of that card in the instructions 20 that says the date the calibration was certified.
21 So the way I do it, I -- you would have a Phillips j
22 Getschow report dated -- I don't know what today is --
23 6/14 would be the date of the inspection.
That would be l
24 my asterisk on that 77 beside my signature, asterisk 25 6/14/86.
C) l l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 r
(312) 232-0262
4376 Ov 1
I would sign it 6/16/86 underneath that, so that 2
I'm not back dating that inspection, you see.
3 Q
Right.
4 My point, though, is for that intervening day or 5
so, technically speaking, the tool is in an 6
out-of-calibration condition, it's not been calibrated 7
per its recalibration schedule, and an ICR technically 8
could be initiated for that out-of-calibration 9
condition; correct?
10 A
Well, if the tool fell due on Sunday, yes, because it 11 was due Sunday.
You don't work till Monday, so if 12 there's a day lapse or it's the next day, so you are 13 right.
14 If you wanted to write up every instance of that, 15 you would be within your procedure to do so, I think; 16 but it's something that wouldn't go on very long, 17 because --
18 O
All right.
Because why?
19 I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to interrupt you.
20 A
It's a -- it's an ICR that's not required.
The tool was 21 not in the field.
22 Q
Okay.
23 A
It's under QC control.
24 Q
All right, sir.
rS 25 Has anyone ever written you up for failure to write V
1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4377 O
1 an ICR because of the intervening -- because of -- the 2
subsequent calibration due date fell on a Sunday?
3 A
No, sir.
4 Q
Are you aware of other quality control inspectors in 5
other disciplines at Comstock who have made errors in 6
their quality control documentation, aside from yourself 7
and Mr. Seeders?
8 A
I would say everyone does.
There are errors, whether 9
it's a write-over or you cross something out and don't 10 initial and date it, or whether the -- a person 11 observing that couldn't tell whether that was the 12 correct information or not, maybe; but everyone makes 13 errors, I will say that.
14 Q
Are you aware of inspectors at Comstock who have made 15 errors in their documentation who have neither been 16 disciplined nor terminated for those errors, aside from 17 yourself and Mr. Seeders?
18 A/
No, sir.
19 Q
Let me see if I can make clear that you understood the 20 question that I was asking.
21 I aay have put two negatives in there.
22 Are there -- are there inspectors who have made j
23 such errors, aside from yourself and Mr. Seeders -- made 24 document errors, who, although they made those errors, 25 they were not disciplined?
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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4378 1
A Yes, sir, I would say I've made errors myself and I 2
haven't been disciplined.
3 Q
Aside from you and aside from Mr. Seeders --
4 A
Oh, excuse me.
5 0
-- are there others who haven't been disciplined as 6
well?
7 A
Yes, sir, yes, sir.
8 Q
Are there inspectors who have made errors in their 9
inspection decisions, aside from writing -- the way they 10 wrote them up, errors in their inspection decisions, 11 aside from you and Mr. Seeders?
12 A
Yes, sir.
13 Q
And in all cases, where other inspectors, aside from you 14 and Mr. Seeders, have made inspection errors, have they 15 always been disciplined or always terminated for making 16 those errors?
17 A
No, sir.
18 Q
Are you aware of inspectors, aside from yourself and Mr.
19 Seeders, who have made significant errors in either 20 their inspection decisions or their inspection 21 documentation who have not been either disciplined or 22 terminated?
23 MR. MILLER:
I'm going to object to the word 24 "significant."
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, that's for the witness O
Sonntac Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 l
(312) 232-0262
4379 O
1 to say.
2 A
Yes, sir, I know of one instance.
3 BY MR. GUILD:
4 0
Okay.
Can you identify that instance?
5 A
I know the man.
I don't -- I know vaguely the problem.
6 Q
Are you aware of Mr. Rick Martin?
7 A
Yes, sir, I'm aware of that one, too.
8 Q
Did you have Mr. Martin in mind when --
9 A
No, sir.
I don't know why I didn't, but I didn't have 10 him in mind.
11 Q
All right.
Well, let me ask you about Mr. Martin.
12 Are you aware generally that Mr. Martin has made 13 significant errors in his inspection decisions and 14 documentation?
15 A
Only hearsay.
I never worked with the man side by side.
16 I don't know what he does.
17 Q
Do you have that understanding?
18 I appreciate you saying you don't have personal 19 knowledge, but is it your understanding that Mr. Martin 20 made significant errors in his inspections?
21 A
Yes, sir, I've heard that.
22 Q
Does Mr. Martin still work for Comstock?
23 A
Yes, yes, sir.
24 Q
He wasn't terminated for those errors, was he?
25 A
No, sir.
1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 1.
4380 O
1 Q
Is Mr. Martin now a -- still a Quality Control 2
Inspector?
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
He was allowed to either retain or regain his 5
certifications, and continues to perform inspections, 6
does he not?
7 A
Yes, sir.
8 Q
Now, did you have someone else in mind when I asked you 9
the question at first?
10 A
Yes, another man came to my mind, a Don Coss.
11 He had had, again, from what I had heard, several 12 problems in an area of inspection he was working in, and-13 he was taken out of it and put on a clerk duty, more or 14 less pushing paper.
15 Q
Is he performing inspections today?
16 A
No, sir.
I believe he's still -- he's in the turnover 17 group, paper work.
18 Q
Doing document review?
19 A
Yes.
20 Q
All right.
Is Mr. Coss still certified as a Level 2 21 Inspector, to your knowledge?
22 A
I would say yes.
23 I don't know what areas, but -- well, calibration'I 24 know he is.
25 Q
Can you identify the area and the subject in which it is Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4381 j
($)
1 your understanding that Mr. Coss was responsible for 2
inspection errors or document errors?
3 A
It had something to do with the reworks that he was in 4
charge of, and apparently, from what I had heard, he had I
5 went several months without writing up a deficiency, and 6
they come to find out there was one -- more than one, 7
and he was removed from that job and someone else put in i
8 there.
i
)
9 Q
Do you stand by the statement that you were -- that was i
10 attributed to you, made to the NRC March of '85, that i
11 Rick, meaning Mr. Saklak, had a grudge against John, 12 meaning Mr. Seeders, so he got him moved out?
I 13 A
Yes, I -- in my feelings, that is the way I thought it 14 was.
15 It was just a personality thing; and Rick had the 16 ability to -- to swing things his way, maybe.
17 As far as being a supervisor, he could talk to 18 management daily, whenever, and maybe influence their 19 decisions.
20 Q
Is it fair to state that, aside from whether or not Mr.
1 21 Seeders was responsible for the calibration document 22 deficiencies, aside from whether he deserved, because of 1
23 those deficiencies, to be transferred or terminated, 24 that the basis for the action they did take against Mr.
l Seeders -- and that was transferring him out of QC --
25 i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4382
(
1 was because Mr. Saklak had a grudge against him and they 2
moved him out for that reason?
4 3
A Well, initially I think Rick had some grudge, if you 4
want to call it, against John, and once this other 5
information came out on the paper work problems of the 6
calibration, that was more fuel to the fire, and that 7
was enough to get him terminated or moved out.
8 MR. GUILD:
Okay.
9 That's all I have.
10 Thank you very much, Mr. Snyder.
i 11 Mr. Chairman.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Are you finished with your 13 cross examination?
14 MR. GUILD:
I am.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Berry.
16 MR. BERRY:
I would prefer not to start my 17 examination before the issue of quitting hour, 5:00 18 o' clock.
19 I'd prefer to start in the morning, but it's the 20 Board's --
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
You prefer to -- well, I 22 would give you time to prepare it now, anyway, and that 23 would get up almost to 5:00.
24 So you prefer to start it in the morning?
25 MR. BERRY:
Yes, yes, I would.
O Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
~
- .-=a-
=.-
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4383 1
JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
We will do that.
2 There's nothing else that we have right now that 3
would take up any time?
4 MR. BERRY:
No.
5 MR. MILLER:
I don't think so.
6 I understand that Dr.'Arvey will be here at 9:00; 7
is that correct?
8 MR. GUILD:
Yes.
9 MR. MILLER:
So we'll start with him, in any 10 event.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
But you will still
~
12 have a witness available.
s-)
13 I don't think we'll have Dr. Arvey on for_very' 14 long.
15 MR. MILLER:
Me neither.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
We might also use these few 17 minutes profitably to go over that transcript of Friday 18 and --
19 MR. MILLER:
Okay.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
-- and'get everything in i
21 order, then, for the morning.
22 MR. GUILD:
Did you. mark that ICR log?
i 23 MR. MILLER:
I marked it, but did not enter 24 it as an exhibit.
25 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chhirman, what I would Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
4384 0
1 propose to do:
2 Mr. Miller apparently has -- he does have a mark on 3
the ICR log that's been used.
4 I don't want to offer it, but I would propose a 5
specimen page from the log be selected -- and I'll be 6
happy to talk to Mr. Miller about it -- and be included 7
in the record as -- as the marked exhibit for 8
identification.
9 I don't propose to offer it in evidence, but I 10 would ask that it be included as a marked exhibit so 11 that the references by the witness to the various 12 columns can be understood and --
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay, fine.
14 Why don't you all agree on the stipulations and 15 we'll approve them in the morning.
16 So we're recessed until 9:00 o' clock tomorrow 17 morning.
18 (WHEREUPON, the hearing of the 19 above-entitled matter was continued to 20 the 17th day of June, 1986, at the hour 21 of 9:00 A. M.)
22 23 24 C:)
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER O
This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the I
matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING:
Braidwood Station Units 1 & 2 Commonwealth Edison Company (Evidentiary Hearing)
DOCKET NO.:
50-456/467-OL PLACE:
Joliet,, Illinois DATE:
Monday, June 16, 1986 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
(sigt)
(TYPED) Gary L.
Sonntag Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliation O
e
_ _, _, _