ML20197D936
| ML20197D936 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Atlantic Nuclear Power Plant  |
| Issue date: | 12/07/1978 |
| From: | Ahearne J, Bradford P, Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7812210437 | |
| Download: ML20197D936 (19) | |
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PUBLIC MZETING DISCUSSION & VOTE ON ALAB-500 - OFFSHORE POWER SYSTEM
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l Place . Washington, D. C.
Date . Thursday, 7 Deember 1978 Pages 1-18 l
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DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the Unf tad States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on 7 December 1978 ja the Commission's ' offices at 1717 H Street, H. W. , Wasnington, D. C. The meeting was open to public attendance and observation. Tiiis transcript has not been reviewed, corrteted, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
Tne transcript is intended solely for general informa'tfonal purposes.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of -de formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed. Expressions of cpinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determinations or .
beliefs. No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument .
2 contained herein, except as the Commission may authcrize.
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! 4 5 PUBLIC MEETING 6 DISCUSSION & VOTE ON ALAB-500 - OFFSHORE POWER SYSTEM 7
Room 1130 8 1717 H Street, N. W. !
Washington, D. C.
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! Thursday, 7 December 1978 10 i The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 10:45 a.m.
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l BEFORE:
12 DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman 13 i VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 14 !
RICHARD T. KENNEDY, Commissioner 15 !
I PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner 16 i
! JOHN F. AHEAR4E, Ccmmissioner 17 l 18 { PRESENT:
I 19 ' M. KELLEY ~
S. OSTRACH 20 ! A. KENNEKE 3
C. BENTON 21 22 ,
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929.01.1 3 gsh 1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE Memorandum, Kelley to 3 commissioners. No vember 27th, 1978, entitled. " Revised 4 Draft for OPS."
5 We met and discussed it. And it seems to me that 6 the order drafted by counsel in the November 22nd memorandum 7 reflected reasonably our discussions of the previous meeting 8 on the subject.
Let's see. Mhat's the status of voting or 9 a comment, or what.
10 Steve?
11 MR. OSTRACH: The status of the comments, sir, is 12 that Commissioner Ahearne, at least on the subject --
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Nhy don't you try not to 14 characterize his remark and tell us what it was.
15 (Laughter.)
1 16 MR. OSTRACH: Commissioner Ahearne on November 17 27th circulated the 2-1/2 page dissent to the commission 18 office, commenting on the document. And last week, 19 Commiss ioner Bradford's o f fice suggested a nodification to 20 the paper we sent up on Novemoer 22nd. There wculd be 21 acparently a 4-word cnange in the second paragraph on the -
22 first page.
23 The change would be the second sentence of that 24 paragraph that says, " Howe ve r" -- as it presently reads --
25 "the commission wisnes the staff to discuss its current _
ACE-FF0FRAL RFPnRTERS. INC. (702)347-3700
4 29.01.2 gsh ! policy f or treatment of Cla ss 9 scce ss. Comm i ss ioner 2 Bradford's office has suggested that that be changed to j 3 read: The commission wishes the parties, especially the 4 staff, to discuss the current policy on treatment."
5 So the change would be indicating that the 6 commission wishes all of the parties and not just the sta ff, 7 to discuss staff's current policy on treatment of Cla ss 9 8 accidents in other --
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's not -- we moved the 10 sentence down that way and separated out. It was to make 11 it clearer that we wanted a reply from the sta.ff and not l
12 from the world at large.
13 MR. OSTRACH: That's what we understood you to say.
14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That was my understanding 15 as well.
16 COMMI SSIONER BR ADFORD: It was not my understanding, 17 and I don't see any reason to even sr; gest that we wouldn't 18 welcome comments from the other parties on that question as 19 well. I'd like to have them. It just seems to be 20 monstrous for the commission to say it doesn't want the l 21 parties in the proceeding to comment on the question. !
22 Granted, they wouldn't be precluded. But it's one 23 thing to say that the staff is instructed and the others are )
24 invited. It's quite another to say that the staff only !
l 25 should corment on this question. -
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'29.01.3 gsh 1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: We 11, the cuestion in the 2 particular case is the OPS question. And there, the 3 commission encourages parties other than those involved in 4 the OPS proceeding to participate, and so on.
5 CohWISSIONER GILINSXY: Well, why would we not want 6 the other parties to comment on this?
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE I'd be more interested in 8 hedring what the staff layout of the general prcposition and 9 the staf f's practice at this point.
10 Why don't we just have a brief waving of hands elong 11 the table and see what way the sentiment lies on your 12 spec ific wording, o%ay?
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I can already tell, I t h i n '< .
14 I assume John will abstain. .
15 COMMISSIONER AHE ARNE : That's correct.
16 (Laughter.)
17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I knew you didn't want to 18 know the answer.
19 (Laughter.)
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why are you abstaining?
21 COMMISSIONER AHE ARNE: Because I have decided from -
22 this approach. So at this stage those who are going with 1
23 this a pproach are then discussing how that approach ought to ;
24 be.
25 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD: I mean I don't mind saying I
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29.01.4 6 gsh I that we instruct the staff that we invite the parties 2 because I don't want to compel the parties who don't want 3 to respond to that issue to do it. But if there are parties 4 out there who feel that they have something worth tie ing us 5 on an issue to put into this proceeding, it seems to me to 6 do no harm to let them '<now it.
7 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Let me just say that I S agree with almost everything that John says in his dissent 9 and would be delighted to join him, provided that it were not 10 in the context of the o.ffshore proceeding because it's not 11 an issue in the o ffshore proceeding; it's a much broader l
12 issue.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: of course, if you would 14 join John --
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's a resolution. If he 16 joins John, I'm outvoted and that would se ttle the questien.
17 (Laughter.)
i 18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY I disagree with Peter's 19 words.
20 CHAIRMAN dENDRIE I do n ' t think he's going to j
-1 21 abstain.
l 22 (Laughter.) l 23 CO MMISS IONER AHE ARNE : Unless the two of you wish to l
24 join in ny dissent. l l
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Let's see. _ l ACE-FEDFRAL REPORTFRS. T.NC. (202)347-3700
7 29.L...d gsh I COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Let me come at it another 2 way.
I 3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE I tell you. Let ne suggest 4 one which is sort of halfway, but I think more yours than 5 mine. Suopose we left the second sentence in the second 6 peragraph as it is and added a third ser,'.ence , which would 7 say other parties may comment if they choose or if they wish.
i 8 COMMI SSIONER BR ADFORD: Fine.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay.
10 COMMISSIONER XENNEDY: You know, if you want v>
11 drag all cats into all barns at all times, that's the way 12 to go about doing it.
1 13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It seems to me a less cheerf ul 14 invitation.
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I don't really think it 16 makes any difference. The question is do you want the 17 off shore proceeci:.; to ever reach any conclusion, or do you 13 Wish to encroil the of f shore proc eeding in a cuestion which l \
19 should be , indeed, in my view, must be, addressed, but which 20 is certainly never going to get addressed and completed in 21 anything like the time that one ought to be able to conclude ;
22 the off shore proceeding on this point.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I must say for myself l 1
24 I think you can't entirely separate these issues in that what 25 you do here is going to have inclicattsos for what you might , .
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2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY I mplic ations -- we ll , you l 3 know, I have a view of the relatively of the universe, t oo.
4 Evarything bears some relationship to almost everything else, 5 so it would be here, however tenuous.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Having on a weak bas is , at least 7 temporarily se.ttled Pe ter's question, let me ask John to 8 summarize his objection to the approach, beca"se I think 9 basically we're dealing with, wcll, sort of a sloppy consensus 10 over here among the four of us.
11 1 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: A neat point but a sicppy 12 consensus.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And you're going in a di ff erent 14 directicn..Would you sunmarize that?
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. I believe that the 16 general issue of the Class 9 how the staf f treats it, and 17 the s onsequences as part of tnat aspect, shoula be addressed.
18 I don't L,lieve that OPS is tne place to be addre. ~ 1ng that.
19 It's a much broader generic issue. And I think we ought to 20 be going forward and addre ssing that issue.
2! In this particular case of OPS, I think that the -
22 l icensing board ought to orapare some kind of a record as 23 to why the staff believes the consequences of Class 9 24 accidents on floating power stations are sufficiently 25 dif ferent than those for land-based power stations, which ACE-FEDFRAl. REPORTERS. TNC. (202)347-3700
e29.01.7 9 gsh I led to their ccnclusions.
1 What I said is I would remand the case to the 3 licensing board to develop a record on the nature of the 4 consequences of Class 9 accidents on a floating nuclear 5 power plant with a specific objective exploring the factual 6 basis for staff /s position.
7 If the consequences are so different than those of 8 the typicsi land-based plant, they should be considered.
9 So I would have had two t h ings that would be in 10 this particular hearing or case, and the second, asking 11 for the development of a generic rev .ew.
12 COMMI SSIONER KENNEDY: Without Pe t er's a dd-on wo rds .
13 I thought that was precisely what the first part of that was 14 being taken care of by this order.
15 I would, as I sair aarlier, I would agree with you 16 entirely that the issue neods ta be addressed and needs to 17 be addre.ssed now, but not in the context of off shore power.
13 Your dissent becomes much more significant in !
19 light of Pe ter's wo rds.
20 COMMI SSIONER BR ADFORD: Well, my words only have 21 significance if you assume that if sonebndy had ventured to -
1 comment without them, you would have put it in the mail and I 22 23 sent it back to them and said, sorry, we're not interested in 24 what you have to say.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: We ne ver do that. It runs up the 1
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10 29.01.8 gsh I postage bill. We certainly wouldn't reject them.
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: No, I think that's not the 3 way I saw it, and certainly, I would not have obviously sent 4 anything back. Certainly not without having reed it first.
5 Therefore, having had some impact.
6 More importantly, what I suspect will occur he'3 7 is that the question is going to have been so broadened, that a the hearing will have to be delayed. Indeed, the response to 9 this will, I think, be delayed because the cuestion is so 10 broad, it would take a great deal of research.
Il The offshore proceeding will now be placed, I 12 thin k, in the annals of the commission as one of the lortger 13 drawn-out proceedings. That sort of thing is going to happen.
14 MR. KENNEKE: You can broaden the number of parties, 15 but you haven't nece ssarily broadened the number of questiens.
16 You might want to go the other way and sharpen the questions, 17 which would help to implement your concerns about it so IS that they don't go oeyond the application throughout.
19 COMMI SSIO IER KENNEDf: But that's act what tnis 20 says, you see. It's crecisely :ne other way around. If 1:
21 said that, I don't care.
22 It is precisely -- the point he re has been to 23 broaden it.
24 . MR. KENNEKE: The office is now five years old, and 25 while yo u may not be addressing that first issue, which was
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11 i29.01.9-I gsh 1 the question whether you can set a schedule. That seems to :
2 me the great issue of this.
3 Can the commission come to grips with a proc eeding 4 that continuously slips for lack of a forward push? It's 5 certainly a great motivator for this thing, des ir ing to 6 keep it limited to OPS while you attempt to grapple with j 7 issues that go beyond OPS.
8 COMMISEIONER BRADFORD: We came to grips with the 9 schedule cuestion by leaving the appeals board ruling, 10 dissenting.
11 MR. KENNEKE: Because you can't pinpoint a blame, 12 no one party will take full blame. But surely, the systen is 13 suffering from the lack of a forward push, sonething to keep la it moving here. It's now- a five-ye ar old proc eeding, now 15 matter whose fault.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: But it's moving forward, and the 17 consideration of the question certified here as to whether la Class 9 accidents are a proper consideration of the ppeals 19 board. It determines that they are.
20 MR. KE NNEKE : The proceeding is dead in the water 21 right now because they're not going te go further until you -
22 decide how far you're going to let them go.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I thought we were proceeding to 24 the issue of the final stages of the environmental impact 25 statement and could look forward to rescheduling the ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, T.NC. (202)347-370n
12 29.01.10 gsh 1 environmental hearings.
2 MR. KENNEKE : As I understand it, the boerd has not 3 allowed parts of it to be entered into the testimony. and t that's the issue he re . Can they even submit some of it?
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: dould somebody comment?
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I'm not sure.
7 MR. KELLEY: You have to 69 p6cticulariv 8 car ef ul about comment, espacially on status of thh proceeding.
9 MR. OSTRACH: I believe that the status of the 10 groceeding is tnat environmental hearings have been comple ted 11 except for possibit consideration of the Class 9 cuestion 12 and that the a:plic ant and the staff have essentially 13 agreed to wait unt:.1 the commission resolves this aopeal, 14 rather than going ahead with the licensing board hearing 15 during the pendancy of the review.
16 So it is awaiting commission decision.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I see.
la MR. KENNEKE: And Commissioner Ahearne's proposal 19 has the advantage that it allows the proceedings at leest to 20 be moving forward on the one element. It gets them off the 21 dime. So there is some forward motion. They could still -
22 come to grips with the others.
23 You take a certain risk in doing that, which you 24 may not wish to take, but it would move it forward and let 25 the hearing proc eed while you're considering tne larger issue.
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629.d1.11 13 gsh 1 But that is the notivation of this whole concern.
2 You may have let that first issue slip and say, indeed, you 3 can't pin it on anybody. But surely, you must recognize 4 that there is a fault in the system here that allows it to 5 come to no decision after more than five years new.
6 MR. KELLEY: I think Steve Ostrach's statement was 7 a pure statement of the status of the ma.tter. Can I ask 8 Ca~rroll Benton whether it's accurate or not, sticking to 9 status?
10 MR. BENTON: I'm not sure I can completely describe 11 the legal status.
12 MR. KELLEY: I mean just whether Steve's statement 13 about the staff awaiting commission review of this question 14 before going ahead with the hearing -- is that an accurate 15 statement?
16 MR . B7 NTON : I can 't answer that. I was looking 17 around for the case attorney.
IS MR. KELLEY: Marty, do you know?
19 VOICE: Don't know.
20 (Laughter.)
21 MR. KELLEY: Well, Steve's spoken to it. -l I
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Without engaging in years of l 23 contemplation of this subject, it seems to me that a way to 24 get forward is to ask parties for views on the question that 25 has been certified to the commiss ion, certainly a first step.
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la "29.01.12 gsh -1 And I would think that something along that line would be 2 something we'd want to do.
3 However things ultimately turn, I think the comment 4 that the information we've asked for from the staff in terms 5 of its current policy on treatment of Class 9 accidents ir 6 contexts other than this particular context in this particular 7 case, I find it for myself not only.useful but probably 8 necessary. Because I agree with Vic I don't think you can 9 decide the certified qtiestion devoid of all consideration 10 of other aspects of the treatment of Class 9.
11 And it seems to me --
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY : It was that. Mr. Chairman, 13 that I had concurred in. Now we've gone one step farther.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: As Peter points out, if the 15 other parties, absent the explic it invitation I've chosen to ,
1 16 comment, I gue ss we could have included that in the
! 17 co mpilation of materials before the commission. And I would 18 not have put it in myself, but Peter thought it ought to 19 go in.
20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I owe you one.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I ' ll look for a good place to r 22 try to _ collect . it.
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Does that apply to each vote 24 that you collect on this thing?
25 (Laughter.)
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15 29.01.l3 gsh I COMMI SSIO;iER BRADFORD: Well, yeah. But there's a 2 relative weight between those that tip the scales and those 3 that don't.
4 (Laughter.)
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY : That depends entirely on
. 6 who votes last.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The man with the most sliopage 3 in the position deserves the most credit.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MR. KENNEKE: There's a chance you will not resolve 11 the generic issue and there's a very strong probability 12 going that way that the re's a major slip in any decision.
13 CHAIRMAN MENDRIE: Jesus, the goddamn world may come 14 to an end tomorrow, too, but I'm not about to go into deep 15 parr / sis at this table because that might happen.
16 I've got to move forward on this case and one way 17 is to go and ask the parties to, by God, comment on the la certified question, a specific one in a specific case. And 19 I find it, f urthermore, necessary to nave sone general 20 background. So we asked for that, and let us get that and 21 then see if we can move on from there.
22 Now, you know, if we proceed down the line to f all 1 into the tar pit --
24 COMMISSIOJER 3RADFORD: It's not unlike the Sailey 25 discussion earlier. If it turns out t ha t we resolved the l
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-29.01.l4 16 gsh 1 issue that relates exclusively to OPS at sone po int, one 2 could only break that l oo s e .
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It seems to ne there may, 4 ind ee d , be in the arguments that come back some basis for l
5 deciding that either we agree with the majority of the 6 appeals board on the question or the minority of the appeals 7 board on the question and be able to put that in motion.
8 And on the more general question of how do you deal 9 with Class 95 in all aspects of the commission's aff airs, 10 the environmental side, the safety side, and so on, is, 11 indeed, something we prooably could profitably take up.
12 It is a question that's bothersome and has been 13 dealt with only by the commission, at least, only in a way.
14 that's sort of leaves things indefinite.
l 15 John, I must say with regard to your move to simply 16 hold all action he re of this kind and simoly remand back to 17 examine the cuestion of whether the consequences are j 18 different or not, I'm preoared in trying to decide what to 19 do on GPS to consider case A if the consequences are, ind eed ,
1 20 perceptibly different, and B if they're not percepticly )
21 different.
22 I am not sure that it will turn tnat way. . point )
23 out that the dissent at the acpeals board level, as I i
24 understand it, is on the basis that prior commission policy I
- 25 dealt with the prooability aspects and not with the 1
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1 17 429.01.]5 gsh I consequences of those eff ects and simply rejects the 2 staff's argument that the consequences may be enough 3 difference that I think it's reasonable to take a look at 4 it.
5 If one found that view persuasive, then however 6 glorious a record might be compiled on the consecuences, 7 there are differences. It wouldn't make any difference.
8 I would just urge to go forward on this front. One 9 m ight in due time come to a time when remand, in fact, 10 involves searching out that question. But I continue to
!! think that the order, as currently phrased, will do.
12 COMMISSIONER KEBNEDY: dhich current phrasing?
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE Like this.
14 COMMISSIOi4ER KE TWEDY : You mean with this addition?
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: With the third sentence, 16 "other parties may comment if they wish or choose, or whatever 17 language."
18 MR. KELLEY: Chcose. l l
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And I would recommend that to 20 the commission. John has made his case in a menorandum to 21 us and has sunnsrized it briefly here. And I perceive it's --
22 t im e , naving stated it, to leave the body to vote.
23 To continue the discussion, I think that's kind and 24 graceful of him, and let me see if I can muster up enough 25 votes to carry the day against him. We do have to vote here ACE-FEDERAL. RFPORTERS, I tJ C . (202)347-37nO
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429.01.j6 18 gsh 1 at the table rather than on a notational and affirmation 2 basis.
3 COMMISSIO:iER BRADFORD: I'll vote the same way 4 regardle ss, but are we voting twice, one to add them and 5 once on the wording of the order?
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: No. I'm vot ing that we a oprove 7 the order, as amended, the draft order as amended. That 6 would be the proposition I put before the house.
9 Let me see if I can stir up any enthusiasm for 10 that proposition.
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Aye.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Aye.
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY : I don't even need to vote.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Do you aostain ,or vote no?
15 COMMI SSIONER KENNEDY: I vote yes. Abstaining on 16 the addition which has been made from the order.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE And you'll vote no. Okay, gcod.
13 We have a disposition. Please carry it forward. Thank you 19 very much. Let's move to the commission's next sucject.
20 ( //he re upo n , at 11:10 a.m.. the commission moved to 21 a new subject area.) :
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