ML20153A931
| ML20153A931 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/17/1978 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7811290009 | |
| Download: ML20153A931 (33) | |
Text
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N'U Ci.E A[ RiGij L ATO N Y CO TM I'551 O N -
.c IN THE M ATTER O F:
PUBLIC MEETING DISCUSSION.OF WASTE MANAGEMENT PROGRAM REQUIREMENTS (incl. IRG Follow-up Items; Hart Study; SECY-78-276B) d
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Place - Washington, D. C.
Date - Friday, 17 November 19 8 P=ges 1-32 l
rs.onen.:
(202) 347 37CO
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ACE -FEDEE.41RE?ORTE25,INC.
OfficialRepor:ars
.1 Lt Nor n C:=itel Streer 7811290Od9 weshingn=m c.C. 2cco1 NATICNWICE COVERAGE DAlt.Y
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CR1357 s
DISCLAIMER This is. an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the Unf tad States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on 17 November 1978 in the Commission's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W., wasM ngton, O. C.
The meeting was open to public attendance and observation.
This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or editad, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general infoma'tfenal purposes.
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As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion.in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final de' terminations or beliefs.
No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR' REGULATORY COMMI5SION 2
3 PUBLIC MEETING 4
DISCUSSION OF WASTE MANAGEMENT PROGRAM REQUIREMENTS 5
(incl. IRG Follow-up Items; Hart Study; SECY-78-276B) 6 7
Room 1130 1717 H S treet, N.W.
8 Washington, D. C.
9 Friday, 17 November 1978 10 The Commission met, pursuant to. notice, at 1:40 p.m.
11 BEFORE:
12 DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman 13 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Commissioner
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14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 l
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N,,, Q E CR1357 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I will note that
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Commissioner Ahearne are the ' ~ his red line-this af ternoon.
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david 1 COMISSIONER'AHEARNE:
Joe, thank you.
I'd 4
emphasize' thin.
I appreciate it.
0 (Laughter.)
0 CHAIRMAN HENDIRE:
there may be something 7
about damp Friday afternoons which lead to the evaporation 8
of Commissioners, and I must apoligiza; I unfortunately 9
had things to do, and I'm going to sit here and finish 10 my lunch.during this briefing.
11 I'm sorry about that, but I think you'd rather 12 get started and get ahead with the afternoon's agenda-than
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to wait.
14 As I've noted, we now have tie microphones, 15 so that people on the staff side of the table can be s
16 heard in the back of the room, and they 're really 17 splendid microphones.
The consequence is the proceedings 18 are full of clicks and rustles.
Even, I was-told the 19 other day, a heartbeat.
20
'We meet this afternoon to discuss several 21 things under the general heading of waste management 22 programs.
They will include sort of a. progress report on
'3 the forming of a Commissioner statement on the Interagency 24 Review Group report and various followup items connected with 5
. Ace.Federet Reporters, Inc.
that study.
i david 2 We have also been mandated by the Authorization
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Bill to. carry.out.a s.tudy of. DOE waste management 2
facilities and the possibility of licensing some or all 3
or providing some other sort of regulatory overview for 4
vari us of those facilities.
We'd like to hear about that.
5 It is a study which seems to me to have a lot of 6
things to be covered in it, and the time is not very long.
7 S
I'm anxious to see us moving ahead.
And 8
then among other things, I think, we would like to talk 9
briefly and hear a recommendation for disposition of an 10 earlier -- at this point long earlier -- recommendation
- j that the Commission try to form some of its opinions on th.e 12 13 waste management matters up into a letter thatmight be sent around to Congress, an enterprise which I think may turn ja 15 out to have been overtaken by events.
Well, Lee, I see you have Cliff Smith and 16 Dick Cunningham at the center table.
Please go ahead, and j7 I'll pr ceed to my lunch.
18 MR. GOSSICK:
All right.
I've just been handed j9 with regard to the letter commenting on the IRG, I've 20 ust been handed this draft.
It's now been circulated, 21 I guess, to the Commissior offices for comment by Monday 22 by.the secretary.
j 24 And I guess.I would.ask at this point whether Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
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25 there's any need for further staff, as we've been doing, I l
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believel--
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. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: - Sandy's about-to.go.on-2 3
. vacation, : so : that settles what - she 's going to do.
MR. GOSSICK: ' At any rate, the comments are 4
5 g ing ' toi go back to the secretary by Monday.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Could I just ask a 6
question?
'I understand the due date of the comments'was 7
extended.
Is that correct?
8 MR. GOSSICK:
Yes.
9 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think it's, appropriate 11 and unfortunately there are only two aof us here, but I 12 think we ought to thank Sandy for all the very good work
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13 that has gone into this, and I think it's at the stage ja now we ought to_just massage it up here.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I certainly endorse your
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16 remarks.
Sandy held with it down here and worked with the l
j7 assistance -- I get reports, you know.
Looks pretty good.
Looks terrible.
The chances of agreement, and so on.
18 39 I hope we're back on the positive swing side.
I think it would be useful, and I'm going to ask j
20 21 the secretariat to press us all to try and get responses
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22 back cn1 Monday-because if there are going to be things 1
23 that we need to meet on to thrash out where the majority 24 or. consensus lies, the-time begins to creep down upon us, Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 and I'd like to' wash :those things up.
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MR. GOSSICK- -Okay.
2 Mr.' Cunningham 's' going to brief'us'on'the' rest
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- ofthe matters that you've mentioned.
MR. CUNNINGHAM:- Yes, Mr. Chairman.
This has 5
mainly to. do wih' the - study required by the Authorization 6
Act,'and if'I may take just a minute to-review-the 4
7 bidding on various legislative proposals we have to get j
8 us.up to-date ---
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Please do.
10 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
We sent to '.. - C:mmission a paper in May of '78, 276, which had' son,=
agislative.
12 proposals to increase the NRC's regulatory authority on
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I3 regulation of waste management programs.
Id Based on that I think the office of general 15 counsel along with our staff prepared the June 14 testimony, 16 which you gave, Mr. Chairman, on legislative proposals that I7 we thought would be appropriate.
Following that testimony, 18 the Commission. requested staff to pull together in one 19 paper because we were getting a lot of requests from 20 various committees on what our opinion was on seeking more 21
-legislative authority over DOE, to pull together in one 22 paper all:of these various proposals.
23
-The staff did that in a paper that was 276-A.
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1That went.up'to the Commissich.on July 20.
I think all Ac..r.o.rti n.corters, Inc.
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.but'one'of.the Commissioners had some comment on that paper.
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david 5 You, Mr. Chairman, indicated that it went beyondthefeetesti'monhtitahydnha'dgiven.'
2 There were 3
other questions of wording in the letter and so forth.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, I disagreed with it.
MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Yes, you did.
6 I think yours, commissioner Ahearne, was more 7
to do with procedural.
Under the legislative procedures 8
it wasn' t at all clear how we would ever implen.ent it.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I didn't think you would.
10 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Yes, right.
Your comments were 11 quite clear on that point.
I2 So, we had started after we got the response
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13 from the Commissioners, we had started to prepare another Id paper to explain how we got where we did and to take into 15 account the various comments of the Commissioners as best 16 we could.
I7 When we were in the middle of preparing that 18 paper, we found out that the Congress was beginning to 19 prepare legislation to include in the Authorization Bill, 20 which would require us to do a study on this very subject.
21 So today I think that brings us up to the point in the 22 study, Mr. Chairman.
23 So today I think that all that has gone on before J
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' ll this is rather overtaken by events because obviously Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
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~1 whatever we go up to Congress with now would seem to have to
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david 6 have to be' backed. by the study or the report that we will p
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2 use to support it.-
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Are you withdrawing 4
276-A?
5 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
I think that should be withdrawn.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I have,a notion that at.
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'least from the present panel you'll get nothing from loud cheers.
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(Laughter.)
10 Why don' t we agree that you will do that.
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
I do so with pleasure, Mr. Chairman.
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13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You know, it not only agrees -
14 with my predispositions and prejudices, but is also 15 eminent good sense.
16 COMMISSIONER.AHEARNE:
I thought thatwas always q
17 the same.
18 (Laughter. )
19 CRAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I'm prepared to enumerate 20 tdumn separately. 'I'll fight you over whether I'm always 21 able to ~ keep them in the same place.
I 22 But.you know for us to go ahead with the intent 23 of the 276-A paper, it now in effect prejudges what we are i
24 asked ~to know a whole lot more about in a few months.
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23 MR. CUNNINGHAM:- Now, to get on with the study, I
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Mr'.. Chairman, basically tdua bill requires the NRC to I
2 do a study ~ and report Eo the J ongress 'its recommendations C
3 concerning increased regulatory authority over nuclear 4
wastes that are presently not within NRC's legislative 5
authority.
6 The wording of the bill says that this study 7
will be conducted by the NRC in cooperation with the Department j
8
' of Energy.
We interpret that to mean that the Department of 9
Energy will supply data and'information, but the study 10 and the recommendations will be basically the Commission's Il study and recommendations.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Which committee was
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responsible for thelanguage?
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Senator Hart's committee.
5 15 And in fact, remember we have a letter from Senator Hart 16 and Senator Domenici that says what that provision in the 17 bills means is the follow -- and they really spelled it out.
18 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Yes, I think in our discussion 19 with' committee staffers it's pretty clear that they thought 20 of it in terms of DOE cooperating in terms of submitting 21 information.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I know where the bill came 23
.from.
I was curious as to where that explicit language, 24 "in. cooperation," came'from. -
Ace. Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
That's in the bill.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No, I understand that.
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2 And it's not: that I.know some. thing.
I'm just trying 3
to extract it.
Many times, though, a phrase in'a bill is 4
put~in there by'someone else, and what I was.really trying to ask is:- do you know whether that particular phrase 5
came L from someone other than Senator -Mar.:'s committee or 6
someone other than Senator Hart or his staff?
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Thinking back in talking to the 8
9 staffers,.it's my impression --
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I tell you, I doubt it.and 11 we can make a check because there was a previous version 12 of the Hart study that was introduced way back.
I can
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13 remember at a staff meeting saying that this thing has been introduced.
I'm sure we're going to be asked to do ja 15 it either in ' legislation or just have the Senator write 16 us a letter and say, wouldn't you'please do this.- I 17
' thought is was a good idea.
18 And I said, let's start thinking about-how we 19 would do it.
And ths;was back in --
20 MR. SMITH:
Some time ago, and I think even 21 at-that time my thoughts were, as Dick explained it, that 22 NRC would have the lead and would rely upon DOE to supply 23
'information.
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. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If I remember correctly, AwFemI Roorters lm.
.25 similar language was' in there, but we could check.
I'm-
11 david 9 pretty sure it was.
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- COMMISSIONER AH5ARNEi I don't have the Hart-
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3 Domenici letter.
Did it address what in cooperation with?
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MR. CUNNINGHAM:
No, it did not.
The Hart-Dominici letter?
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
It was clear frcm our discussions with the
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8 staff up there that what they had intended -- that DOE 9
would supply information to us as it might be necessary to 10 develop a report.
11 I guess what I'm concerned about is that 12 "in cooperation with" may mean that at some stage we are 13 expected to get DOE to, if not concur, at least to provide 14 final comments.
I'm not sure what "in cooperation" means.
15 But if it does mean that, then you probably have to early 16
'on try to establish some sort of agreement with DOE as 17 to how that relationship is going to work.
18 MR. SMITH:
I had Commissioner, already had 19
-long discussions with Sheldon Myers.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Before or after he had left?
22 MR. SMITH:
After he had left, about what 23
" cooperation" meant.
And he and I concluded that the best 24 o hanMe h won be son of me e does an i
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investigation.
They do an investigation generally with the
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devid10 cooperation of the agency.. The agency gets an opportunity 2
to make comment,'but'in the findi analysis t's GAO's recommendation.
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4 We accepted that that's what it had to be here.
0 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'm not that concerned 0
with what DOE feels it ought to be, but I want to make 7
sure-- and I think you're convincing me -- that you have 8
reviewed this mode of operation with the Senate staff, and 9
they are willing to accept that style of operation.
10 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Very clearly.
With the
'I staff,there's no question about that with the staff.
12 MR. STOIBER:
Ther e is an appropriate analogy
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I3 here.
In the NEPA process with lead agencies and Id cooperating agencies, generalling that means that the 15 lead agency puts the report in final, but certainly there's 16 opportunity for comment by any participating agency before it goes out.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So basically then what we will be doing is using that phrase to insist that 20 DOE i; t,vides us with all the information we need.
2I MR. CUNNINGHAM:
That's correct.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Okay.
MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Now, the present bill --
24 i
Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
staff group going ahead and begin forming, you know, going
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through draft report at the inclusion stage and getting
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2 comments andI hen going final,'and it may 65 appropriate t
3 to ask them if they wouldn't like to, you know, sort of d
make the final comment.
5 It seems to me a perfectly reasonable thing 6
to do, and allows the DOE side to put right there next to 7
our report what its views are, in the event that there are 8
some' differences that ought to be taken into account.
9 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
I'm jumping a little bit ahead, 10 Mr. Chairman, but we have made provisions for some review by II DOE.
Sometime in January when we cet our first draf t out --
I2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Cood.
I3 t.
MR. CUNNINGHAM:
So that they can confirm the Id technical things and see what problems might be coming up 15 with them.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It seems fine to me.
I7 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
The only specific requirement in 18 the study is to do an inventory of wastes that are not l9 currently licensed or regulated by the Nuclear Regulatory 20 Commission.
21 The remainder of the specifics of the study were 22 in~an' earlier draft of the bill but were dropped.
And they 23 are pretty much as those outlined in the Hart-Domenici letter.
I 24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
'A little legislation by U. S.
Ace Federce Reporte,rs, Inc.
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Post here.
2 CbMMISSI6NER AHbARNEi How do yo$ intend to 3
address point. number five in the letter?
MR. CUNNINGHAM:
That's going to be difficult.
5
.There are two part to -- and we're going to need a lot of 6
help.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
For the audience,.I guess, O
I should read that.
Excuse me -- so that at least the 9
rest of the people know what we're talking about.
10 Point number five is - for each of the options II and categories identified provide an evaluation of the 12 national security implications of extending the Commission's I3 licensing and regulatory authority.
Id Obviously, my question is:
how do we, the NRC,
.end 5 15 really address the national security implications?
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
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A 1357 15 3FFMAN MR. CUNNINGHAM:
It ceems to me, Commissioner Ahearne,
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that we haven ' t gotten. f ar enough into. that to.. know what kind 2
3 of problems we.may have.
'It 's a two-part subj ect.
One is l
protection of classified information.
And we do have proceduresi 4
to protect classified information in the licensing process.
5 The other part of it is --
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
'Yes, but that 's almost -- it 's not 7
unimportant, but in a policy sense it 's trivial.
We're going to 8
9 protect classified information.
10 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
The other thing is, of course, the 11 question of delays in the licensing process.
And that's not 12 national security.
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13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You're not giving me too much 14 confidence.
There are several other, much more serious issues.
15 MR. CUNNINGHAR:
There are some, and I don't claim 16 that I understand all of them yet.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My cuestion really is that, 18 with us doint it by ourselves, that particular element, how are 19 we going to really understand the national security implications.
20 MR. SMITH:
I don't think we can do it by ourselves.
21 The DOS would have to be intimately involved, and we are going to license certain DOE facilities.
They 've got to tell us, to 22 23 some extent, what in their view is the national security impli-24 cation if we were to get into a public -licensing procedure.
ke Fw1eral Reporters. Inc.
25 COMMISSIONER AHTARNE:
Fine, okay.
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mth 2 16 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
This is one of probably the two
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ma or areas where we've. got to have the information from DOE'.
2 We can't do the inventory by ourselves, nor can we deal with 3
the questions of security, because we're just not that much 4
involved with it.
5 Turning to the study itself, there are really two parts 6
to the study.
We've organized the study in a way that we think 7
takes into account and pretty well tracks the reauest in the 8
Domenici-Hart letter.
We think that they are reasonable reauests 9
to support the study.
We have had a number of discussions with 10 the staff there to try to narrow the scope of this down.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That's a policy decision.
12 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Any way we try to organize a study, 13 the cuestion is how far we can go in any of these things --
ja CR*TRMAN HENDRIE:
I think --
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
-- during the time given.
16 CHAIPEAN HENDRIE:
The time is very short.
j7 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Yes.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And the level of effort recuired --
19 there was some indication in the final letter which came, I 20 believe, which recognized that we weren't going to be able to do 21 everything to perfection here, I think.
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
That's correct.
23 24 CHAIPPAN HENDRIE:
There's going to be some difficulty Ace-Federet Reporters, Inc.
25 in making the effert to produce a product by the mandated due
nte 3' 17 date.
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, COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:. I would guess, that we definitely 2
should meet the due date, but.I wouldn't be surprised if, in 3
meeting. that due date, we concluded that some of the problems 4
were not completely clear to us.
5 M. CWNIMHAM:
Yes, I-think that certainly will be 6
the case.
We want to get' some discussion with the staf f on that.
7 There are even some things we can't even begin to treat.
For 8
example, you have the whole Nevada test site.
There's nothing.
9 We just can't begin to address that kind of thing in a study 10 like this.
jj COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, we can begin, but not get i
12 V8#Y f"f*
13 M. CWNINGHAM:
We can recognize that it's there 14 and that it exists.
We have to recognize.
But to treat it in 15 the context of some of the other recruiretpents is just going to 16 take more time and resources than we have available.
j7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
There may be some places in the 18 report where we have to say'just that and indicate that some 19 conclusions are very tentative and preliminary, because they had j
20 to be drawn on the basis of available effort.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And in fact there may in some 22 cases not be any conclusions.
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
24 W Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Me have the s tudy.
We've actually
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We're' laying out detailed outlines.
We've
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started gathering inventory information from. DOE.
Our problem 2
is not lack of information.
It's getting _:e wheelbarrows full 3
of information and try to sort through it and.put it in some 4
useful form.
5 We're beginning.-
We 're starting ' to work on regulatory 6
options,.how we might regulate seme of these things.
I think 7
there are some fairly broad-range things that we 're going to 8
explore.
Unfortunately, some of these things have to go in 9
series rather than in parallel.
We'have to define our regulatory 10 11 options before we try to assign costs to benefits and all these 12 kinds of things.
So that holds us back somewhat.
But we are g3 moving on. these.
We haven't gone far enough yet tooknow' exactly ja what hinds or problems we'll run into and the study is. such that 15 there isn't too much time to dig and to solve problems.
16 We've just got to keep moving forward as best we can on these.
I think the study, the way we visualize it, would 17 be a rather broad overview, and' as we move into the legislative 18 19 process during the-year, there may be certain parts of it that we've got to go into much more detail on.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess I'd like to at least 21 make,. as.f ar 'as I'm concerned, a very strong point that, given 22 is addressincl',
23 the importance of some of the. issues that.the study 24 I'm entirely in agreement with.the need for urgency, the need Ace Federal Reporters; inc,
,25 for moving out quickly, the need for ' getting all of that data.
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.I really want to be sure that we are extremely 2
cautious before reaching any-conclusions, because we have to 3
recognize that these are very sensitive and very important issues, 4
and consequent 1v we should not try to give the impression that S
we have come to a "tasoned judgment on that kind of issue unless 6
we really have.
7 MR. CUNNIMGHAM:
That's a point well taken, 8
Commissioner Ahearne.
Certainly we 've got to see what informa-9 tion was developed, which was never going to come down anywhere.
10 It may be that certainly we'll reach a point where there really 11 isn't any real course to follow.
Our timetable for this effort:
12 as I say, we've already begun work.
But we're going to try to la have the first round of the draf t ready by January 15, which 14 will circulate for internal comments.
Next time we hope to 15 give it to DOE to take a look at.
16 COMMISSIONER AHFARNE:
That will also be to us for 17 comments?
18 MR. CUMNINGHAM:
Yes.
We will have it to -- we will 19 have the final one to the Commission on Februar, 15th, 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would like to see the draf t 21 when it goes out for comments, please.
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Certainly.
Our timing is such that 23 the Commission will have to scognize that this won't be fully 24 staffed.
1 tee Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I understand that, absolutely.
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20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's keep in mind for about that j
time..that.it,probably.would be,. if we 'can stan,d the time, it-2 w uld probably be useful to have the discussion here in which 3
you'd say, well, yesterday we sent you the first cut on this i
4 study, and'since nobody will have had time to digest it, why, 5
y u can summarize for us how you've come along and where you 6
seem to be-going.
And it provides'an opportunity for some 7
d'scussion, some minor help, maybe, and maybe even major help i
8 with regard to which direction to drive in for the next month 9
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to get closer to final, 10 Probably we ought to have it in hand for a couple of j j days before we sit down.
It wouldn't hurt us to have a chance 12 to read once through it.
But I think it would be very useful to 13 have a briefing. - So why don't we look forward to that as a mark ja 15 point on the schedule.
And you know, you just come in and summarize for us how you stand, where you think we ought to go, 16 and we'll discuss it.
It needn't be a great, fancy show.
I 37 wouldn't think it would be.
I think some discussion is useful 18 and getting everybody around the table will help everyone.
39 MR. GOSSICK:
Is this in parallel or preceding, you 20 kn w,.the ERDA staff looking at the draft?
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
There is no ERDA.
22 23 I'm sorry. DOE.
E. GOSSICK:
- 24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think it would have to be i
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As-soon as you get the thing pulled together,-you'll, 25 concurrent.
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want to get it to DOE, and there just isn't time for them to 2
think about it and make: a comment,, and. then"you give it to us, 3
and we think about it and make a comment.
Everybody's going to j 4
have to do it together.
You can point out to them that we're 5
going to have a discussion and, by George, they can come over 6
and representatives can sit here and hear the discussion and 7
stand up and put their two cents' worth in.
8 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
I think it 's also clear that as we 9
get 'any parts of this together, we're going to send it to DOE, 10 if we think that they can be of any use to us.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
On that number 5 item, they may have 12 to end up doing first drafts for you.
n MR. SMITH :
Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Ahearne, I'm 14 probably a little more pessimistic than Dick about this timing, 15 because when I read some of the issues -- regulatory options, 16 cost of regulation, program impacts, national security implica-17 tions -.nheading into, the holiday season, and getting DOE and 18 the Commission agreed on something, an.' we'll know by March 1 --
19 I just wonder if it might not be appropriate in our responae 20 back to Senator Hart and Senator Domenici is what you come in 21 with, would be phase one of the report or something, in which 22 maybe between now and then you could do a real thorough job on l
23 the: inventories, a general comparison of risk, and begin to scope 24 out.
I Am.FNot Reporters, Inc.
25 What I would be concerned about is to put out a report 1
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in March in which you may say that these are tentative conclu-
- 2. sio ns, but that goes al1 o'ver.. - And once yob..took the time to 3
really 'look at it in depth, you might come out with it completely 4
different.
I just think it's a big job, a big job.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is.
6 MR. SMITH:
This is November.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No, you're right.
There really 7
8 is not very much time, 9
MR. SMITH:
And as it is, you have how many people 10 pulled in on this?
11 MR.- CUNNINGHAM:
We have about 8 or 9 full-time people 12 and part-time a lot of people, totalling about 15.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It's a large investment.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It's sort of --
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
It gets manpower-independent after a 16
- while, 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You pull a chunk of people.'.ike that 18 together, like a fuel cycle in waste management, and you haven't 19 got that much working force working in the waste management and, 20 you know, mill tailings sort of areas, not to do all the other 21 great things we're supposed to be doing.
So I suspect it'll 22 come damn near wiping out other major work in the shop for a 23 month or so.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:. - Do you have any sense whether
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MR'. SMITH:
I don't know.
MR. CUNNINGHAM:
I've chatted with the staff.
They're 3
4 problem, of course, is they have to time it to get thei'r legis-
~
5 lative' proposals out.
There might be a month of time in there 6 where we can ' negotiate from March maybe to April, thel time in 7
th ere.
I think maybe perhaps if they saw which direction we were going, we'd have a little maneuvering in there.
8 9
CHAIRMAM HENDRIE:
I think at the moment we ought to, j
10 rather than, you know, violate letters that say, I think we 11 ought to run at it full-bore, and as we begin to see how we're 12 coming out there in early January, and as the Congress begins 13 to come back together, why, I will go down and have some discus-14 sion and make clear what is humanly possible on our side and 15 see how it all fits.
I think it's just a little early to try 16 to pull back at this point.
I think we ought to give it a try, 17 because there will be legislative initiatives.
It may be one 18 of the most popular subjects on which initiatives will be filed.
19 So :there are going to be all kinds of things in the air in con-20 nection with it all, and I think we'd better drive pretty hard 21 to get it.
~
22 One of due things I might say 'in that connection is,
23 where else can you get some help?
24 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Wella we can_ use all the help we can r
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25 get, W:. Chairman.
If somebody from the Office of the M*
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of doing this1 thing.in series where we. send the paper out to' the 2
3 Commission, then OPE might look at it, take their crack at it, and go through several inter-relations here, we could work with 4
some of the staff and that might also be helpful.
5 6
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It seems to me I think it would 7
be a good idea.
What do you think?
COMMISSIONER-AHEARNE:
Let me first, if I could, 8
explore a little bit how the study is being done and who 's doing 9
10 it.
11 MR. CUNMINGHAM:
The people involved are mainly the 12 NMSS staff.
We might have to use some time from individuals in 13 NRR, S tandards Development, but the full-time staff is from 14 NMSS --
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Waste management?
16 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Well, waste management is certainly 17 involved.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But it is not run out of 19 waste managem.ent?
20 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
No, sir, it is not.
It is being run 21 out of fuel cycle.
22 MR. SMITH :
We don't have the people to do it in 23 waste management.
We don't have the management structure.
We 24 don't have enough senior people,.. It would be impossible to do 7
Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 it out of there.
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'l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Let me see if I understand.
Is 2
it that there's' nobo'dy to manag'e it or 'is it 'that - the people 3
aren't there?
4 MR. SMITH:
The people aren't there and there 's not 5 enough -- and the people aren't there to manage it or to run it.
6 CO,MMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But if it's a people question, 7 you've obviously found 8 or 9 people to spend full-time on it.
1 8
So they could certainly go over to waste management.
9 MR. SMITH:
I don't --
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I assume people are drawn from both 11 sides.
12 MR. GOSSICK:
This is part of Fuel Cycle.
It hasn't i
13 changed.
You don't have a separate division.
So it's under j
14 Dick.
Just maPe sure we understand the organization of what 15 we're doing.
16 COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE:
The question was answered.
I 17 asked waste management, and the answer was no, fuel cycle.
So 18 I'm not saying --
19 MR. GOSSICK:
Okay.
I just wanted to make sure it 's 20 understood.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My concern is that this, as the 22 Chairman just pointed out, is an issue that is going to be very 23 live. throughout this coming year and the following year.
It 24 seems to me if we're building up a body of' expertise to work on Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 the problem, it had best be built up in the people that are
26 mto 12 going to be in waste management.
That was my only cuestion.
I MR~. SMITH :
And-that '.s. s.omething ke ' re. trying to do as 2
soon as we get certain decisions made.
Some of the key people 3
t he's talking about are people who would be meshed in with waste 4
mana gement.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Would it be correct to interpret 6
that that this is a temporary arrangement for where the people 7
"#8 wned or housed?
8 MR. SMITH:
That's correct.
Right now, on paper you j
9 have a Division of Waste Management, but in fact you don't.
10 And waste management has heretofore been a part of fuel cycle, jj and we've used people in Loewenburg's shop as specialists in any 12 aspect of fuel cycle problems, and they're very senior people.'
13 1
They are the people whom we would use.
ja COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The reason I'm pushing this 15 16 right now, Cliff, is when this comes up to us again later, we won't have the benefit of your perspective.
So what I was j7 18 trying to, I guess, get to is that at some time downstream we've 19 got the management system set-up in waste management.
Would it be appropriate to assume that the group of people who are working 20 full-time at this will end up going over and sitting in waste 21 22 management?
MR. SMITH:
I would say not all of them, but certainly 23 24 some of them.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
If it 's a full-time group 25
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27 Bo 13-working on this, wouldn't it be logical that they would?
j MR) S MITH :.
Not. necessarily.
We have people in the 2
study group who have expertise in any part of the fuel cycle, 3
and so it doesn't necessarily follow that just because they're 1
4 w rking with waste management, that they all have to go over 5
O'#8' 6
' c COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
All right.
7 MR. GOSSICK:
They could be possibly detailed for the 8
purpose of the study.
9 1
MR. SMITH:
Oh, yes.
Right now we're doing the study 10 with the people and under the direction of the senior managers i
jj that we have, who know the problem.
Okay?
Now, when we get 12 the management-structure set for the waste mansgement, then we
{
j3 can look at whether or not -- how many of those we thought --
ja what I'm saying is, if you've got 9 people working on it who 15 16 happen now not to be in waste management, it doesn't necessarily follow that you want to put all 9 of them who are in waste j7 managemen t.
Because some of those people are good on mines, 18 mills, fuel fabrication, reprocessing.
39 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Okay, you've said enough.
20 (Laughter.)
21 MR. SMITH:
Besides, he's trying to hold onto his 22 people.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :, I know, I know.
24
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25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
I understan'd here first you took the
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mts'14 best people we have, because we don't have time to get people
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up to-speed.. Secondly,l some,of. the problems we 've run into for' '
2 this study are not the types of things that are being addressed 3
directly; by the Waste Management' Division today, nor will they 4
be in the_next few years.
For example, one of the biggest issue 5
is the Hanford. tanks.
Our experience on the Hanford waste tanks 6
and our capability rests with the organization that licenses --
7 we
, w uld' license.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Mr. Cunningham, I would expect 9
that the activity in that area is more likely to be in the hands 10 of waste tanks than in reprocessing in the next few years, and 11 i2 so I would be delighted to see those people go over to. the Waste Management Division, i
13 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Well, I'm saying that it's a licensing ja action right now.
15 COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE:
We're far afield at this stage.
16 Yes, Joe, I think it would be appropriate to have j7 someone from OPE working with them.
18 CHAIRMAN.HENDRIE:
That was the longest answer I've 39 had.this afternoon.
20 (Laughter.)
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
Pitch in.
22 MR. RATHBUN:
Yes, sir.
-23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think you get to be who we send.
24
' hcs Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 Go yourself.
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mta 15-29 MR.'RATHBUU:
I think I'd probably be the logical
)
candidate fo'r working on -that.
That' would be..my. guess.
2 CHAIRMAN EENDRIE:
Jolly good show.
3 i
Now, what next?
4 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
I think that completes this.
I feel 5
6 like --
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Not today.
7 8
(Laughter.)
CHAIRMAN-HENDRIE:
Let me go back to the question, 9
10 Dick.
Let -me go back to the health question.
I think it 's 11 useful, you know, for -- Dennis'll stick his two cents worth 12 in.
You know, it's a short-span study and it might as well go in at the beginning, and I think that will be a considerable la 14 help.
15 But.I was asking in a more general sense:
Are there 16 any -- are there other parts of ' the agency or contractor shops 17 that we might, A, where you could get, you know, sound profes-18 sional help, and, B,
in a way and in an area where you'd really 19 use it?- Say you get to a point'in these things where you become 20 sort of -- every place.there's room for somebody to work on the 21 object, somebody's working on the-object, and you then get to 22 a point where you're throwing additional people at it and it 23 really doesn't make much difference.
24
'But are there other places in the agency or contractor "s.
~
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30 1
MR. CUNNINGHAM:
There might be, Mr. Chairman.
I 2
foresee a need,. as we. get.into this.
We 've ~ go.t to do 'our options 3
study first and get that, and I'll have the first draf t of that 4
by the end of the day, I hope.
5 We're going to need information about costs out of I&Ec 6
for example.
I'm not sure of the cost on the -inspection program-7 Probably out of NRR we'll be using some comparisons where there 8
may be some equivalency.
There will be things that we will 9' reed that probably somebody outside NMSS can do a better job for 10 ut 11 We haven't even considered any contractual help, li simply because of the time shortfall.
That's not too useful.
13 MR. SMITH:
We might implement one in terms of basic 14 ordering agreements.
15 CHAIRMAM HENDRIE:
I'm not sure whether the right 16 people are available or anything else, but if you wanted some 17 national laboratory help I think we could put that on board in 18 fairly short order, just straight inter-agency business.
You 19 know, if there's an urgent need, why, I expect I could produce 20 people by, say, noon Monday.
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
We're trying to get a pretty good 22 idea of what,we have on data on cost inventory.- As I say, we 23 have a lot of data.
We might need manpower to put it in some 24 useful form.
That might be something that somebody from the i
Am FWerd Reporters. Inc.
25 national laboratory could do.
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3 uta 17.
31 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Or perhaps Lee might be able
)
t get som.eone ;from.Al's, office who might be able to help.
I 2
w uld guess at this stage it's still early on and they've got a 3
whole handful of people, and just making sure that they're going i
(
- 4 in the right direction.
5 CHAIM HENQRIE:
Yes, I expect.
6
' sell, holler if you see anything.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
We will do so, Mr. Chairman.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
Other subjects for this 9
afternoon?
10 COMMISSIOtiER AHEARNE:
Relating to this.
jj CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Relatidg to this general waste 12 management.
13 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
No.
j4 MR. SMITH:
We have our IRG letter and we withdrew the 15 paper, and the third thing was done.
16 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
I guess the Secretary will let 37 the other Commissioner offices know about the IRG letter.
I'll 18 19 just use Dennis as a coordinating facility with my comments.
-CHAIRMAN HE11DRIE:
What does that mean, Dennis?
20 MR. RATHBUN:
Jack and I will work very closely
- )
together.in any case.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:,. Fine.
24 t
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25 MR. RATHBUN:
To kind of synthesize this into a
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nta 18-32 package.-
j CHAIRMAN EENDRIE:.Very good.
Thank.you very much.'
2 3
- (Whereupon, at 2:25 p.m.,
the meeting was adjourned.)
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