ML20151H326
| ML20151H326 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 07/22/1988 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| References | |
| ACRS-T-1682, NUDOCS 8808010236 | |
| Download: ML20151H326 (139) | |
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UNITED STATES O
NUCUUUt REGULATORY CORBGSSION ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS
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In the Matter of:
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ACRS TVA ORGANIZATIONAL ISSUES
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ON ADVANCED REACTOR DESIGNS
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(Af ternoon Session) a\\
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July 22, 1988 s
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I UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
(
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 2
3 4
In the Matter of:
)
)
5 ACRS TVA ORGANIZATIONAL ISSUES
)
ON ADVANCED REACTOR DESIGNS
)
6
)
7 Friday (Afternoon Session)
July 22, 1988 8
Room 1130 9
1717 H Street, N.W.
Washington, D.
C.
10 11 The above-entitled matter came on for hearing, 12 pursuant to notice, at 8:30 a.m.
(~
13 ACRS MEMBERS PRESENT:
14 MR. CHARLES J. WYLIE, retired Chief Engineer, Electrical Division, 15 Duke Power Company, Charlotte, North Carolina 16 MR. CARLYLE MICHELSON, ret, ired Princioal Nuclear Engineer, Tennessee Valley Authority, Knoxville, 17 Tennessee and retired Riector, Office for Analysis and Evaluation of Operational Data, U.
S. Nuclear 18 Regulatory Commission, Washington, D.
C.
19 DR. FORRSST J. REMICK, Associate Vice-President for Research and Professor of Nuclear Engineering, The 20 Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania 21 MR. JAMES C. CARROLL 22
~
_)
ACRS COGNIZANT STAFF MEMBER:
u DEAN HOUSTON 24 25 Heritoge Reporting Corporation
[,-
129 INVITED EXPERT:
g PAUL BARTON 2
NRC STAFF PRESENTERS:
3 Edward Goodwin 4
Mark Peranich 5
Charlie Fox R. Gridley 6
J. Bynum 7
8 9
10 11 12
(~
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation
128 1
AFTERNOON SESEION 1:00 p.m..
i 2
CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Let's resume our meeting here, and l'
3 I mentioned this morning that the afternoon session will be a 4
review of the TVA recent reorganization of the management 5
structure and the cost savings effort at TVA, and so I guess 6
we are calling Charlie Fox?
7 MR. FOX:
Yes.
I am Charlie Fox.
I am vice 8
president and technical director for TVA.
I have-with me Joe 9
Bynun today, who is our vice president of the nuclear power 10 production.
Dick Gridley is our director of safety and 11 licensing; Mark Brandon, who is in the safety and licensing 12 group, and K. Widenberg.
13 Today we will go through the same basic agenda as we 14 did before the Commission with a couple of notable exceptions.
15 We are not going to spend a lot of time on the operational 16 history of Sequoyah.
We will focus in on the organizational 17 changes and the staff reductions and also nuclear safety which 18 are in direct request to the agenda that you supplied us a 19 week or so ago.
20 I do want to point out that we want to convince you 21 today that TVA in no way is sacrificing safety or quality as a 22 result of the effort or cutting any corners on any of our 23 nuclear programs, and the slides that I will be showing you 24 this morning and Joe Bynum will be showing you will in fact 25 hope to convince you of that.
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1 This agenda will be covered in the following l_
2 manner--I will cover the items down through programs and 1
3 commitments, and Joe Bynum will deal with the plant-specific 4
operatior nd the staffing and reductions questions that you 5
have at
'iated with that.
6
.coe objectives which you now see on the screen 7
have been the objectives in the Office of Nuclear Power since 8
Admiral White arrived there in January of 1986..The 9
organization and staffing levels that we are going to in the i
10 Office of Nuclear Power have no impact on these objectives.
i 1
l 11 MR. MICHELSON:
You can say that I guess, but you j
12 are going to have to kind of prove that.
~
13 NR. FOX:
If you will bear with me, I will do so.
14 (Slide) 15 MR. MICHELSON:
One of the items that you made a big 16 point of in our earlier discussions, particularly in 17 Chattanooga, was the, was the goodness of your training 18 programs to bring your management up to speed and so forth.
1 19 MR. FOX:
Yes.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
Are all those training programs 21 proceeding, or have any of them been eliminated, and if so, 22 which ones7 23 MR. FOX:
None of the management and development 24 programs have b en eliminated.
I do have a few slides I will 25 be happy to gv tnrough in the course of the presentation on HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
130 1
management development and training.
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Some of them have been delayed?
I
\\
3 was reading your newspaper, you know, that you turn out to 4
your employees, and it said here, here is the whole listing of 5
cancellations of management training programs through the 6
month of October I believe it was, and I wasn't sure whether 7
it was picking up again after that, or what happened, but at 8
any rate, you cancelled the programs.
9 MR. FOX:
I will show you where we have been and 10 where we are and where we are going, and our basic management 11 de"elopment program in the Office of Nuclear Power is'not 12 affected in any way, and we are not cutting back.
13 MR. MICHELSON:
This was a good program and you left 14 us with a warm feeling and--
15 MR. FOX:
It is a excellent program.
We have 16 matriculated a lot of people through the course.
I will be 17 happy to tell you where we are.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
You are assuring me that that is not 19 in any way being affected?
20 MR. FOX:
That is correct.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
Thank you.
22 MR. FOX:
I speak only for the nuclear power 23 management development training.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
That's the main one that we are 25 interested in, of course.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. FOX:
This chart that you have before you now is p,
L 2
the former organization chart for the top levels of TVA.
I 3
point this out, an$ I would like you to note that Admiral 4
White, the commander of the Office of Nuclear Power, has a 5
direct line of reporting to the Board.
'He provided 6
udministrative and day-to-day direction to the General e
7 Manager's office, but policy matters and key decisions he went 8
directly to the Board.
9 On the next chart, you will see that that's still 10 the case.
The principal changes that occurred are that the 11 Board of Directors will have Inspector General, Chief Counsel 12 and a number of support functions such as government and 13 public affairs reporting directly to the Board of Directors.
14 The executive vice president, Bill Willis, will have three 15 senior vice presidents that line up under him, and also the 16 vice president and John Thompson of corporate services.
17 The point I want to make is that Admiral White still 18 has that direct line of authority to the Board from the point 19 of view of TVA and as approved by the Commission on July the 1
20 1st, the organization does in fact have those prerequisites 21 that they felt very important that have existed in the older 22 organization.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
If you read your flow diagram, your 24 organization chart is a classical one.
One generally has a 7,L 25 little trouble understanding how one person reports to two HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
132 1
different pn.ple directly since there is not even a dashed 2
line or whatever which is sometimes the subterfuge that is 3
used, end so could you explain what those two solid lines mean 4
then?
5 HR. FOX:
Yes.
As I said earlier,-a lot of 6
day-to-day questions come from the Office of the General 7
Manager.
Admiral White has in his MOU that for resources, for 8
his budget, for anything that he needs to affect the safe 9
operation of the nuclear plants or to affect the recovery 10 program, he goes directly to the Board of Directors.
That's 11 written in a Memorandum of Understanding that he has with the 12 Board.
l 13 MR. MICHELSON:
Is Willis his supervisor, though, or 14 is no way related?
15 HR. FOX:
Bill Willis asked a number of questions 16 that relate to the administrative activities inside the Office 17 of Nuclear Power.
18 HR. MICHELSON:
Well, you know, it has got to leave 19 people a little confused when you draw a chart this way.
It 20 is not--it is possible to make it work.
I am not questioning 21 that.
It just isn't clear why you are drawing it this way if 22 this isn't the--
23 MR. FOX:
I think the activity--
24 HR. MICHELSON:
This isn't the way it is.
25 HR. FOX:
It has been this way for the last two HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
133 1
years.
It is certainly satisfactory to Admiral White and it
[.
E.
2 is satisfactory to the Board of Directors and General Manager.
3 It is working.
4 MR. BARTON:
From a practical point of view, let me 5
give an example, see if this is the.-way it is working.
6 Bill Willis says we are tight on power, you get that 7
nuclear plant up to full power trirque, we have got to have it.
8 Mr. White doesn't agree with thit, and he goes directly to the 9
Board?
10 MR. FOX:
Would go directly to the Board.
11 MR. BARTON.
He diesn't agree.
Says I can't do 12 that.
t f
13 MR. FOX:
That is correct.
[That'sthewaythiswouldwork?
14 MR. BARTON:
/
15 MR. FOX:
Y5 s.
16 MR. B ARTO'l:
He could appeal to them something he 17 was told he doesn't agree with?
18 MR. FOX:
That's right.
19 HR. BARTON:
It was understood by all parties?
j 20 MR. FOX:
Yes, sir.
That was probed extensively at 21 the Commission meeting, and the Commission asked Admiral White 22 to the meeting, asked if he was satisfied with the new 23 organization, of the arrangement, he felt like he had the 24 responsibilities and the authority to run a nuclear program, iL 25 and he stated yes, he had, that he wasn't in fact satisfied HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
l 134 1
with the way the organization was.
2 HR. BARTON:
Can he appeal directly to them for more 3
money if he needs it?
4 MR. FOX:
Yes.
In fact he did so.
In a not too 5
distant past, we were looking at some cuts and he felt that he 6
couldn't carry out the nuclear program with those cuts the way 7
he felt like he had to do it, and he went to the Board and 8
they restored the money.
He never made the cuts.
That in 9
fact has happened just recently.
10 MR. CARROLL:
I guess what, the point Carl was 11 raising which was also troubling me, of the two solid lines, 12 one way that gets out of that might be to put a footnote or 13 something that describes what the, what the line between White 14 and the Board really represents.
15 MR. FOX:
We could do that, but there is a specific 16 Memorandum of Understanding which Chairman Runyon had pledged 17 the Commission to make a matter of policy on how in fact the 18 senior vice president of nuclear power would interact with the 19 Board, continue to do so after Admiral White has left TVA.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
Does the Board give Admiral White 21 direct instructions, or do they always instruct through 22 Willis?
23 MR. r0X:
They frequently give direct instructions.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
It is not just an appeal route like 25 you described earlier?
It also is a route by which he gets HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888 1
135 1
his orders?
fi 2
MR. FOX:
That is correct.
t 3
MR.'MICHELSON:
Strange; anything can be made to 4
work, of course.
5 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
What kind of orders?
What kind of 6
orders does the Board give?
7 MR. FOX:
I think the orders--I'm not familiar with 3
any real orders that have taken place.
They make requests of 9
him for information.
Staff has seen the plants and that sort 10 of thing.
They asked him to review his budget and see if, 11 well, I can give you sn example of an order.
For example, the 12 Power Needs Task Force that Chairman Runyon created six months 13 ago, Joe did a review of power needs, and that review led to 14 the decision to go ahead and defer Bellefonte, and it was a 15 decision between Admiral Uhite and the Board, was discussed to 16 slow down the activities on Browns Ferry Units 1 and 3, 17 concentrate on doing Unit 2 and doing it right, and also 18 focusing all of our, almost all of our efforts at Watts Bar on 19 Unit 1 only, so that's the kind of discussion that does take 20 place between the Board and Admiral White daily.
21 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
That w.Ts direct without the 22 involvement of Mr. Runyon?
23 MR. FOX:
Sir?
24 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Was that withcut the involvement of I
25 Willis?
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. FOX:
Willis was involved, yes.
2 MR. CARROLL:
Is the Memorandum of Understanding 3
something you er share with us?
4 MR. FOX:
The commissioners have seen that 5
Mamorandum of Understanding with the Board, between the Board 6
and Admiral White.
7 MR. GR1DLEY:
It is in Volume 1 of our performance 8
plan and it is docketed, so it is available tc you.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Dean, do you get a copy of it?
10 MR. BARTON:
It heen't been rewritten?
11 HR. GRIDLEY:
It has.
It is in its fifth revision, 12 but the memorandur--and as a result of the reorganization, it 13 is, it is re-established in the, it is in the performance.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
When was volume 1 reissued?
15 MR. GRIDLEY:
It is, it was issued in March of
'86, 16 and has been revised, page revisions, that we are on revision 17 five.
18 MR. H2CHELSON:
That is why I didn't see it.
I have 19 Volume 1.
I recently received a new Volume 2, but I haven't 20 received any revisions to Volume 1.
21 HR. GRIDLEY:
They are page revisions.
We can make 22 them available, Dean, if you don't have them.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
I would have thought they would have 24 gotten them as they came into the Agency.
25 MR. GRIDIEY:
They have been submitted.
They are HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATICN --(202)628-4888
137 l
1 docketed.
1 2
MR. MICHELSON:
At any rate, check on it and send us 3
a pachase.
4 MR. GRIDLEY:
The memorandum that you will see is a 5
current one, and following the reorganization.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
That is why I didn't see it.
7 MR. BARTON:
It wasn't necessarily revised by this 8
present reorganization?
9 MR. GRIDLEY:
It is agreed upon.
It is the same 10 understanding that they had before.
11 MR. FOX:
This next chart is the old organization 12 chart for the Office of Nuclear Power.
As you can see, there 13 were 22 direct reports under Admiral White.
14 The next chart reduces that span of control from 22 15 to 11.
It moves it more toward a classical organization, and 16 also more toward an operation that's supporting operating 17 plants.
It is a natural transition.
Joe Bynum is our site 18 director for nuclear power production.
He has the plants with
]
19 the operating licenses--Sequoyah and Browns Ferry.
Willy 20 Brown, the vice president for nuclear construction, has Watts 21 Bar and Bellefonte activities since those are in fact both 22 construction projects.
Jim McAnelly has RAD CON chemistry, 23 the classical services configuration, management, records 24 management, and document control.
Sy Fisher is our vice 25 president of business operations.
He has the traditional HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
138 1
accounting, contracting, finance functions.
In addition, he 2
also has ADP activity.
3 John Kirkabo has been with me before this body 4
before--our vice president of engineering.
Engineering is 5
basically the same as it was, the same functions, j
1 6
Nick Bazelon is on loan to us from general public 7
utilities, is our vice president for quality assurance, and 8
that organization is functionally the same as it was.
9 Under vice president and nuclear technical director, 10 I have safety and licensing.
Dick Gridley, who is with me j
11 today, is our director of safety and licensing.
Also have the 12 corporate maintenance function, which we are very lucky to 13 have Jean Rodgers who ran Admiral Rickover's maintenance 14 programs for him as corporate loan manager in that function.
15 We also have the NMRG, and there is also a group 16 there that handles all the external interfaces with the NSSS 17 owners groups, EPRI, NUMARC and INPO.
And as I said earlier, 18 this organization was approved, the tech spec change that 19 allowed us to put this into place was approved by the NRC on 20 July 1, and the organization took effect that day.
21 Now with regard to your questions about the 22 reductions that are ongoing in the Office of Nuclear Power, 23 this chart lays out the decrements that comprise the 17 and a 24 half percent reduction that we are undergoing for the TVA 25 employees in the Office of Nuclear Powor.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
139 1
Sequoyah and Browns Ferry are both approaching l_
2 closure on the engineering and mcdifications for the reutart 3
of Sequoyah 1 and 2, and Browns Ferry 2, so there is a natural 4
reduction that is occurring at those sites because of the 5
phase-back in engineering and construction.
Joe Bynum will 6
speak to you later about some other reductions that he is 7
making in some of the operation and maintenance areas which 8
are really quite nominal.
9 Watts Bar, as I said earlier, the focus is on Unit 10 1.
11 MR. CARROLL:
When you say fiscal year, you are 12 talking government fiscal year?
~~
13 MR. FOX:
Yes, October to October.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
You also need to be calibrated--TVA 15 has construction employees and so forth.
They do their own 16 construction, so you can see a big drop.
That doesn't mean 17 all the engineers are reduced, either.
18 MR. FOX:
That is correct.
I will give you a feel 19 for the demographics of that, about organization a little 20 later.
21 Watts Bar, as I said earlier, we are focusing.ae 22 activities on Unit 1.
We are doing the engineering 23 verification associated with Unit 1 to move that plant, to 24 move that unit toward operation in late I'J91, which is what
~
25 the new Power Needs Task Force is telling us that they need HERITAGE REP 0RTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
140 l
l 1
for the TVA by.
2 Watts Bar also was staffed, as I'm sure you are 3
aware, in January of
'85.
They are expected to get an 4
operating license momentarily.
We have also taken a real hard j
5 look at the staff, recognizing it is going to be a few years 6
before we operate that plant.
I don't men to imply that we 7
are letting any licensed operators or trained operators go.
8 We are not, but we are looking at some of the support services 9
and functions that we just don't need now and won't need for a 10 few years, and those are being reduced also.
11 The big change and the biggest delta in manpower in 12 our office is Bellefonte.
As you probably heard, the Board of 13 Directors voted three weeks ago to go ahead and put Bellefonte 14 in a deferral status.
We will be providing a deferral plan to 15 the NRC staff in the not too distant future on Bellefonte.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
Before you leave that,-what happened 17 on Watts Bar that the contractor work went way up?
18 MR. FOX:
That's the engineering verification for 19 the Unit 1 activities.
We have Stone and Webster, Tabasco and 20 Bechtel here.
We also have Sergeant Lundy doing a two-system 21 vertical slice to help make sure we have identified all 22 problems that need to be 6 dressed at the Watts Bar Unit 1 to 23 cover the efforts.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
Which systems are you slicing?
25 MR. FOX:
Going to ulice component cooling water and HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
141 1
I believe control air system, and they are also looking at a f
L.
number of attributes and they are going to look at a couple of 2
3 other systems for selected attributes that aren't contained in 4
the systems.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
That's a very large increase in the 6
contract area.
I thought TVA said they were cutting their 7
contractors by nearly 46, 8
MR. FOX:
Thirty-eight percent, and we are.
We are.
9 We also have to face the fact that our benchmark, a year ago 10 we had 100 year and a half equivalent people at Browns Ferry.
11 And we were doing about 10, 15, percent scheduled engineering 12 work each week at Watts Bar.
That same timeframe, we were
~
13 accomplishing about 5 percent of the scheduled engineering 14 each week.
We just weren't getting there.
The problem was 15 our TVA people weren't used to doing corrective action type 16 engineering.
They hadn't done a lot of engineering 17 verification before.
18 We had to contract out in order to get that 19 engineering done in the most efficient and effective manner 20 possible, so we went and contracted out for a number of 21 manhours of architect-engineering and these contracts at Watts 22 Bar have been in place a year and that activity will phase out 23 as that work is done.
This is a one-time shot.
Hopefully 24 TVA--I won't say hopefully.
TVA won't ever let itself get in i
25 that situation it was in a few years ago, so this corrective HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
142 1
action type engineering verification will never be done again 2
in the life of TVA plants.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
Your non-site dropped from 972 to 4
200.
Non-site means essentially Nuclear Engineering in 5
Knoxville I guess?
6 MR. FOX:
No.
Engineering is in most of these 7
charts.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
What is non-site?
9 MR. FOX:
This is nuclear services.
10 MR. MICHELSCN:
You had nearly a thousand people, 11 contractors, in nuclear services?
12 MR. FOX:
Services are a litany of functions that 13 were provided that go even beyond services.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
How about the contractors in 15 Knoxville?
They are mixed in amongst the--I thought these 16 were site numbers.
These are not site numbers.
These are 17 project numbers.
18 MR. FOX:
Project numbers.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
You took Knoxville, divided it 20 amongst Sequoyah, Browns Ferry and so forth?
21 MR. FOX:
Yes.
Specifically to answer your 22 question, we are reducing Engineering, DNE, this is across the 23 valley, by about 20 percent or about 560 people.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
The thing that troubles me a little 25 bit is that as I was reading--
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. BYNUM:
Let me explain this a little bit.
There I
L_
2 are in the case six--the '89 numbers for Browns Ferry and t
3 Sequoyah, there are about 300 engineers on site, but I do 4
believe that the non-site number of 3100 does include about 5
1900 engineers in Knoxville out of DNE.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
Which is what percent of Knoxville?
7 MR. BYNUM:
I have no idea.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
The things that puzzle me until you 9
started to clarify it is that I read the, again some various 10 pieces of material that TVA sent out on--was the old numbers, 11 the new numbers for Nuclear Engineering, and Knoxville, and,
12 those things dropped about 27 or eight percent as I recall.
I 13 was trying to get a feel for what the old number was; 11
~ ~.
14 something dropped to 931.
15 HR. BYNUM:
I think the DNE number is 19 something.
16 MR. FOX:
DNE overall number was about 2800.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
What is DNE?
18 MR. FOX:
Division of Nuclear Engineering--excuse 19 me.
j 20 MR. GRIDLEY:
The old Office of Engineering.
21 MR. FOX:
That number, I believe the exact number 22 was 2780 going into this, and that number is now down to 23 around 1950.
It is has dropped 567 total people across the 24 valley.
I don't know the exact number for Knoxville.
I think b
25 it is a number of hundred.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. MICHELSON:
You gave the Knoxville numbers in 2
your TVA newspaper.
At the time there was an announcement I t
3 calculated the reductions.
It was around 24 percent in 4
Knoxville.
5 MR. FOX:
May well have been.
The overall reduction 6
in Engineering was about 20 percent.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
Also gave some site numbers, 8
and they were in the 15 percent range.
It adds up.
9 MR. BYNUM:
Basically I think of the DNE, it was 10 about 25, 38, and the FY '89 average is about 1900.
Tnat's j
11 Knoxville.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
What percentage drop was it?
13 MR. BYNUM:
I would have to calculate it.
14 MR. FOX:
It is 20 percent.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
The other thing, you have to be a 16 little careful of just looking at beans here.
We are counting 17 total numbers, and it is, really what is significant is where 18 it comes from.
You can make these cuts in some areas and it 19 won't bother you.
In other areas, it will be quite 20 intecesting.
21 For instance, you don't want, you can make a claim 22 that every one of your key supervisors is still there, but if 23 you took away all of their workers as an extreme, they are of 24 very limited value by themselves.
They are getting the job 25 done through others, if they are good supervisors, so those HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-48o8
145 1
kind of arguments don't buy much.
You have got to look at the 2
people with experience levels about three to seven years.
3 Those are the ones that really are doing your safety reviews 4
and so forth.
5 How many of them did you lose?
6 MR. FOX:
We Iave looked at that, and we feel like 7
we have not in any way sacrificed our ability to do quality 8
engineering.
We still have 4,000 total engineering people.
9 That are on the job, and as I am going to talk to you about 10 safety a little later on, I will point out to you the 11 independent checks and balances that we have both technically 12 and oversignt and licensing, and NSRB, et cetera.
13 HR. MICHELSON:
I'm sure you appreciate that I from 14 time to time talk to people that I have known in the past, and 15 I get some of these horror stories from other directions which 16 make it more difficult for me to make--that's why I am 17 questioning.
You are, you really don't think you have cut any l
19 of the guts out of the operation where it is needed?
19 MR. FOX:
No, sir.
Let's review where we have made j
20 these cuts, and I think you will come to the same conclusion.
21 Leave the slide up there, please.
22 First of all, Bellafonte is where the lion's share 23 of reductions cre comir.g f rom.
Tnat plant has been put in 24 deferral status.
The restart engineering for Sequoyah Unit 2, I
4_
25 of course, is done.
It is almost, it was complete in early HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
146 1
July on Unit 1.
The emphasis now at Browns Ferry Unit 2 and I
2 the Sequoyah 1 and 2 will be on post-restart engineering 3
commitments that we have made to the NRC, and I will talk to 4
you about those a little later on in the presentation.
5 So we have had a natural reduction in both 6
engineering and modifications people at Sequoyah, and we have 7
had a natural reduction due to the decision that was made to 8
defer Bellefonte, so most of our cuts have been in the 9
engineering and construction area, 1300 in construction, and 10 about 560 or so in engineering, mostly on plants that are 11 phasing down in engineering.
When I go to the next slide, I 12 will give you a breakdown between the salaried people and 13 annual trades and labor and then the hourly.
14 (Slide) 15 HR. FOX:
As you can see here, approximately 60 16 percent of the cuts that we have made in the Office of Nuclear i
17 Power are trades and labor.
A large share of that, of course, 18 is Bellefonte, the construction termination that took place 19 there, and just a little over a thousand salaried policy 20 people, annual trades and labor people.
And again, those were 21 primarily associated with Watts Bar Unit 2, Bellefonte 1 and 22 2,
and the closeout of the engineering, restart engineering on 23 Sequoyah 1 and 2, and the realization that we are coming to 24 the end of restart engineering at Browns Ferry Unit 2, 25 MR. MICHELSON:
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for instance, you pointed out earlier as a result of my
(
L 2
discussion that you better than doubled the number of l
3 contractor personnel on site for the r. ext year to do Watts 4
Bar, and yet at the same ti.e you cut 15 percent out of the, 5
out of the Watts Bar project people.
6 MR. FOX:
Those project people that were out were 7
not engineering people.
Those were people, support staff, 8
recognizing that we weren't going to be operating that plant 9
for a number of years, and recognizing that we had the plant 10 staffed on the 0 and H side of house as if it were ready to 11 operate.
We did not cut Engineering at Watts Bar.
We realize 12 that we have a lot of engineering verification we have to do 13 there over the next few years.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
Quite a bit left to be finish there:
15 there are a number of commitments recently in the staff safety 16 evaluation for Sequoyah, for instance, which will take I think 17 quite an effort for some time.
18 MR. CARROLL:
On the, following this vugraph, what 19 are the two categories of annual tradas and labor?
20 MR. FOX:
Well, these are the craft people.
We have 21 annual people that work in maintenance--the foremen, et 22 cetera, that are on annual trader, and labor salary.
23 HR. MICHELSON:
Some of them are hourly and some of 24 them are annual.
IL.
25 MR. CARROLL:
What is the distinction?
Annual is a HERITAGE REPORTING CCRPORATION --(202)628-4888
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foreman level person?
2 MR. BYNUM:
Annual basically are permanent plant I
3 staff people that we carry all year round.
Normally we use 4
hourlies for outages and we use hourlies to supplement our 5
construction.
Mest of the hourlies are in construction, 6
manual on-plant and maintenance staff and operations staff.
7 MR. CARROLL:
All right.
8 MR. BYNUM:
There are some exceptions to that 9
because there are some hourlies in each of those and some 10 annuals in the modifications, but basically the permanent 11 plant staff are annuals, and then the peak. manpower craftsman 1
12 are hourlies.
13 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
14 MR. MICHELSON: I guess your argument is that the 15 work is going away, being completed, and therefore you don't 16 need as many supervisors as well as hands?
17 MR. FOX:
That is correct.
On the next chart it 18 summarizes the status of our various stations.
As I mentioned 19 to you, Sequoyah Unit 1 is progressing orderly toward restart 1
20 in the fall.
Unit 2 is operating at 98 percent power today,
)
21 very smoothly.
Browns Ferry Units 1 and 3, we decided to keep 22 in sort of a lay-up mode for a couple of more years.
That 23 allows us to take advantage of economies there and to focus 24 our attention where it really needs to be.
We have had just a 25 tremendous workload at Browns Ferry on Unit 2, and we focused HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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our resources principally on that.
2 If we had been on the plan that we were on a year 3
ago, we would have spent substantial resources on bringing 4
Unit 3 on at Browns Ferry in the 1990 timeframe.
The Power 1
5 Needs Task Force Chairman Runyon has established a key 6
official in the Office of Nuclear Power and the Office of 7
Nuclear Power took a hard look, and we only needed a schedule 8
to drive three units, and they are now telling us when they 9
will need the fourth unit.
That is out in the 9192 timeframe, 10 so that allows us to not have to have a high capital budget 11 this next year on Browns Ferry Unit 3.
We are going to 12 concentrate at Browns Ferry on working the culture, doing 13 things right on Unit 2, and doing just a tremendous number of 14 modifications that are still ongoing there on Unit 2.
15 The worker density at that plant is extremely high, 16 as you well know, and to continue to add to that loadup, try 17 to do a couple of units at once there with the extent of the 18 recovery program is just very difficult, so we are going to y
l 19 focus only one unit at a time, get it up, do it right, and 20 then we will look at the next one when the Power Needs Task 21 Force and the Board of Directors tell us they need the fifth 22 unit.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Unit 3 is a lot newer than Unit 2.
24 What is the compelling reason why Unit 2 is being worked on 25 and brought up faster?
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MR. FOX:
Unit 2, in the assessment that was done by 2
Admiral White's team, it was concluded that Unit 2 would be 3
the easier of the three to bring on the line.
Looked like the 4
degree of modifications to the safe ends and some of the 5
piping on that unit would be substantially higher.
They 6
estimated that the approximate cost of engineering and 7
modifications work Units 3 and 2, Unit 2 looked like it would 8
be the more attractive to proceed.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Was piping cracking the major 10 contributor to the decision?
11 MR. FOX:
That was a major factor.
It was not the 12 only major factor.
Joe, you my want to comment.
13 MR. BYNUM:
I think you pretty well summarized it.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
The piping was the major, the piping 15 problem was why you selected Unit 2 over Unit 3?
16 MR. FOX:
Piping, and of course modifications.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
Course modifications were already 18 made on all three.
19 MR. BYNUM:
There were additional modifications.
20 MR. FOX:
They weren't complete.
There were 21 modifications that we have just done in the last year and a 22 half at Unit 2.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Nothing is ever complete it seems.
24 I thought the major part of it had been done.
25 MR. FOX:
So the point on this chart is our budgets HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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are based on the funding we need to schedule drive the three f_
2 units, and to also do the engineering verification at a fairly 3
aggressive rate on the Watts Bar Unit 1 plant.
4 So instead of focusing on trying to bring on nine 5
units and work all nine, we have really put the emphasis on 6
four units now based on what the Board of Directors tells us 7
they need with regard to power supply.
8 MR. CARROLL:
Out of curiosity, I am looking at 9
Nucleonics Weg],
July 14, and it basically says you are going 10 to hold Sequoyah at 70 percent and you are going to hold this 11 because Admiral White is basically not satisfied with balance 12 of plant operations.
13 What has happened in the last week to get you tc a 14 hundred percent power?
j 15 HR. FOX:
I could tell you he became satisfied.
Joe 16 Bynum--I won't elaborate.
17 HR. BYNUM:
I can go into the details.
What we 18 actually did is last weekend we took the plant down to 55 19 percent and so we could take each main feed pump out of 20 service.
We did some work on each of the two main feed pumps.
31 Also did some work on the condensate booster pump, which had a 22 leak on it, seal injection leak.
We worked on several other 23 balance of plant items, and really got the plant where we felt 24 very comfortable with it in a hundred percent power, so we 25 brought it back up to 70, let it run for : few hours, and HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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brought it on up to 99 percent where it sits today, so we feel 2
very comfortable, and Admiral White, of course, has been at 3
the site and gone through the plant, and I think we are all 4
satisfied that it is in good shape to run at 99 percent power.
5 MR. CARROLL:
It also talked about stretching the 6
reload and that has been modified too much.
7 MR. BYNUM:
Basically we are going to try to 8
generate as much electricity as we can during the summer 9
months, and then during the winter we will, Browns Ferry or 10 Sequoyah 1 should be up, and we will drop it down to 55, 60 11 percent, and run out past the first of the year.
12 MR. CARROLL:
All that proves you can't always 13 believe what you read in the newspaper.
14 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
15 HR. BARTON:
Do you know roughly how many full power 16 days you have left in that core?
17 MR. BYNUM:
A hundred and seventeen, 117 18 MR. BARTON:
Hundred and seventeen?
19 MR. BYNUM:
Yes, sir.
20 MR. FOX:
In the next slide, it will be part of what 21 I will use to address your questions about the NSRB.
You 22 specifically asked if the NSRB had been compromised in any 23 way, and I wanted to point out to you that safety in our new 24 philosophy in the Of fice of Nuclear Power is n ach more 25 substantial.
Just having Bill Hannum, who does an excellent HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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job as our safety czar I think he has been called before, we I
L 2
have encouraged our managers to get out in the plant where the 3
rubber meets the road to get involved, to understand the 4
technical issues and participate in their solution, and these 5
first two items here are considered to be very important.
6 As you are both aware, the NRC staff had pointed out 7
that they were particularly concerned about the lack of 8
management involvement, particularly the top level managers, 9
and in the Office of Nuclear Power previously.
We feel so 10 strongly about that that walking spaces management involvement 11 in, specifically in our rating sheets for our manager or 12 employees, it is important, we feel like they need to spend
~
13 time out in the plant.
It is a difficult one to measure, but 14 the important thing is that they need to understand and know 15 what goes on in the plant and need to support the people out 16 there.
17 We have told all of our people outside of the 18 operations category that your need for being here is strictly 19 related to supporting that plant, your services organization, 20 understand their needs, provide them services, and make sure 21 that we do business to the highest standards.
In previous 22 discussions we have talked about our centalized quality 23 assurance, licensing, engineering, and construction, make sure 24 that we do business one way at sach of the four plants so we 25 don't end up doing engineering four differ ways at four HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
154 1
plants, and end up maybe making the same mistake four times 2
but try to do business in a common ~ ode, and let's learn the 3
lessons and not repeat the mistakes and benefit from the 4
lessons that occur at the various plants, and the best way to 5
do that is to have certain functions centralized.
6 In addition, you are familiar with the Nuclear 7
Safety Review Board.
Flip to the next chart.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
Before you leave that one--
9 MR. CARROLL:
Back up to walk spaces--that's new 10 terminology to me.
Elaborate a little bit.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
You are not a TVA man, are you?
12 MR. CARROLL:
No, I am not.
13 MR. FOX:
Walking spaces means getting out of the 14 plant, dealing not only with what is going on in the plant but 15 dealing with your people, not just the immediate subordinate 16 level, but all up and down the chain of command.
17 MR. CARROLL:
MBWA--management by walking; you go 18 around?
19 MR. FOX:
You've got it.
That's exactly what it is, 20 Jim.
21 MR. MICrELSON:
The slide. of course, can be read 22 different ways.
The heading is nuclear safety oversight.
The 23 inference is that these are all, as they relate to enhancing i
24 nuclear saf ety or assuring that it rema.4 r s saf e.
25 MR. FOX:
Our organization, everyone is responsible i
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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for doing their utmost to provide the appropriate level of I
i L
2 nuclear safety.
You can't just put it with a given part of i
3 the line organization.
You know, in the case of quality 4
assurance, you don't inspect quality in the design and build 5
it ir., and that's we want everyone in the line organization to 6
build the responsibility for safety.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
But that's a story that has been 8
parroted in TVA for a long time now all the way back to the 9
philosophy of Mr. Freeman.
That's David Freeman, and 10 apparently it didn't work, which means there is more to it 11 than parroting, and you have got to show that you really are i
12 doing something, not just saying I am walking around, I am 13 talking, whatever.
You really have got to, you know, it is 14 hard to just use that as a basis.
15 MR. FOX:
We have training course in walking your 16 space.
That is addressed in a couple of our training courses.
17 Be glad tv enroll you, Jim!
18 MR. MICHELSON:
It is fundamental management 19 attitudes and so forth that permeate down through the entire 20 structure that have to be changed, and I think that this is 21 generally uncertainty now.
Such problems existed in TVA and 22 you are going to convince me why it is no longer the case.
23 This slide doesn't help me a lot, but maybe some of your 24 additional words will.
25 MR. FOX:
Okay.
This slide that I am showing--I HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
l 156 1
will come back to that.one in just a moment--shows the i
2 relationship Dr. Hannum, Silverport, through the manager of 3
nuclear power.
His staffing was unaffected by the reductions.
4 We protected the safety functions.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
You didn't have a very large staff, 6
though, did it?
Three people.
7 MR. FOX:
As you know, he has a number of TVA 8
people, has a TVA secretary for each of his Safety Review 9
Boards.
He also has a cadre of top-line managers inside TVA 10 and supplemented with people like Dr. Bob Yuri, who is 11 formerly with Florida Power and Light, and a number of other 12 very high quality people.
Jim used to be at Oak Ridge 13 Nationa) Lab.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
In terms of permanent employee 15 staff, he didn t have but a couple I suspect.
16 HR. FOX:
On the order of ton people.
17 HR. MICHELSON:
Well, not s:ounting how many 18 secretaries, you know.
Okay.
19 HR. FOX:
I don't have that.
I will be happy to gret 20 you those numbers.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
I don't want it, either, but it is, 22 I don't--he depended upon his line managers and the extra 23 consultants to provide his inputs, and you are saying that 24 hasn't changed any.
25 HR. FOX:
He has nine people.
In fact, he had eight HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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people about a month and a half ago and he seemed--I think he fi 2
has probably two secretaries would be my guess.
(
3 MR. MICHELSON:
Safety review staffs at various 1
4 plants, they are not connected with this Board, are they?
5 MR. FOX:
Dr. Hannum chairs the NSRBs at each of the 6
sites.
7 MR. MICHELSCN:
The on-site ones?
8 MR. FOX:
Yes.
9 MR. MICHEISON:
I thought there was a nuclear safety 10 engineering group of some sort at each site.
I forgot the 11 exact term.
Do you remember, Charlie?
12 MR. FOX:
There is ISEG.
13 MR. MICHELSON:
That's entirely separate from his 14 operation?
i 1
15 MR. FOX:
That's covrect.
Dr. Hannum, his people 16 come in quarterly, and have meetings with the plants.
The 17 ISEG, which I will talk about in more detail later, deals with 18 the data base safety interface in the plant.
Those 19 individuals are dedicated to the various plants.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
You are going to tell us about their 21 staffing separately?
22 MR. FOX:
Yes, sir.
23 MR. BARTON:
Technical secretary at each of the 24 plants, do they have some clerks or somebody helping them with 25 all this paper?
It is not just a one-man job?
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MR. FOX:
No, sir.
That is correct.
2 MR. BARTON:
Have some secretary or--
3 HR. FOX:
Yes, sir.
And that has changed.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Technical secretary is an engineer 1
5 with broad experience?
6 MR. FOX:
Chuck Wilson is our technical secretary at 7
Sequoyah, and Wayne Berry is at Watts Bar.
Wayne has an 8
electrical engineering, INC background.
Chuck Wilson is a 9
physicist by background, had worked for Detroit Edison at 10 FERM1.
Also worked for me at Clinch River--a very talented 11 physicist.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
What is his function supposed to be?
13 MR. FOX:
What he does, he coordinates all the 14 activities of the Board.
He also does a lot of follow-up 15 activity for Dr. Hannum, specifically at Sequoyah, to close 16 issues, or he works with the line organization to make sure 17 the issues that they develop are clearly understood, and to 18 also follow the program.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
The concern that I have is not 20 necessarily clearing issues, although that's important to dO, 21 but the concern I have is what, how does the issues get 22 brought to him other than through his line managers which come 23 mostly from the Board?
How does, how does he independently 24 decide to look into something?
25 MR. FOX:
As you know, the NSRB charter was written HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4838
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to give him the freedom to look at the, whatever he feels is H
1 t.
2 appropriate.
He is very actively involved in all et the l
l 3
activities that we have one going on in the Office of Nuclear 4
Power, and he picks and chooses.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
You have to have responsibility to 6
bring you the grist for the mill.
It doesn't do much good to 7
have a mill ready to go if there is no input to it, and I just 8
was trying to grasp how does he get his grist for the mill 9
other than through the Board members who also have another hat 10 they wear and may not want to generate the grist for the mill?
11 MR. GRIDLEY:
If I could just--this may not exactly 12 answer your question, Carl, but he is also in a discipline 13 review process.
He reviews all of the PORC items so that he 14 has an opportunity to know exactly what is occurring at the 15 point of a safety review.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
That's a third chore.
Who does he 17 have helping him do this?
Does he have a staff?
I mean you 18 named eight or nine and really I am, what I am trying to do is 19 figure out what he has really got to help bring the problems j
20 in.
How many of those nine really are the kind of guys that 21 go out and review and sniff around and bring back to you 22 problems that he really ought to look at?
23 MR. FOX:
About half of the group at Sequoyah are 24 key Sequoyah line managers, so they are pretty much in tune L_
j 25 with the problems going on.
l l
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MR. MICHELSON:
They wear two hats, may not tell you 2
what you ought to be looking at particularly if it involves a 3
hat they wear the rest of time, and they are not necessarily 4
the right source.
5 MR. BYNUM:
I really think you have to look at the 6
whole process because the NSRB is one piece of the prccess.
7 The Nuclear Managers Review Group is one part of the process.
8 The ISEG is one part of the process, and if you really think 9
about it, you really don't want all of those groups literally 10 wandering around the building going to all the different 11 meetings and looking into the same things that each other is 12 looking into, so pretty much the way it is set up is the NSRB 13 obviously has tech spec related activities and they are laid 14 out in Section 6.
They,3amdorm those..They have a mechanism 15 to do that.
16 In addition to that, as Charlie indicated, that the 17 two primary secretaries, they spend a lot of time.
They go l
18 to, to war room meetings on occasion.
They go to PORC 19 meetings, actually sit in the meeting as opposed to get the 20 minutes.
They do those various activities, but I think those 21 are, the things you are looking for is who is really out in 22 the plant, or who goes to plant manager's meetings.
When he 23 had the, that he is on various subs, that's generally people i
24 more like the NMRG-ISEG people that literally are either i
25 assigned out there or go out there for, yo't know, for certain.
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purposes, so you have to look at total how--
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Their responsibility is not to bring
)
3 such problems to the Safety Review Board--to bring them back 4
to their home organization, and then you have to convince me 5
then that the home organization processes them and brings then 6
to this group.
7 MR. BYNUM:
No, no.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
This group never played with 9
anything important.
10 MR. BYNUM:
It is an organization in itself, and 11 they generate items and they issue reports and make 12 recommendations that line management has to respond to.
Same 13 thing with ISEG.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
You have got a lot of review groups.
15 MR. BYNUM:
You haven't accomplished anything if you 16 have every review group doing the same thing.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
Why do you have so many review 18 groups?
Why don't you have a single one?
19 HR. BYNUM:
You don't want the same kind of people 20 looking at everything.
I think it is more effective.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
You are getting back to the way TVA 22 used to operate.
23 MR. CARROLL:
Does ISEG have a strong tie with the 24 Nuclear Safety Review Board?
25 MR. FOX:
Yes.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888 j
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MR. CARROLL:
Do they come to their meetings?
2 MR. BYNUM:
Yes.
They make a lot of presentations.
3 Dick can probably address that.
I have been to several NSRB 4
meetings at which ISEG has actually made presentations to the l
5 NSRB.
6 MR. CARROLL:
Do they have, do your NSRB meetings 7
have a formal agenda?
8 HR. BYNUM:
Yes, sir.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Is part of the routine agenda a report 10 by the ISEG people what has gone on in their plant?
11 MR. BYNUM:
I can't speak for routine, but I know at 12 least two occasions, and I haven't gone to that, 23 unfortunately, at NSRB meetings on at least a couple of 14 meetings I have been to, there have been formal presentations 15 by ISEG, and on specific items as requested.
16 MR. FOX:
There are specifically coordination 17 meetings between ISEG and the NSRB.
ISEG puts out a formal 18 monthly report which goes to the NSRB, and the NSRB minutes 19 and so on go to ISEG, so these exchange, and I think they 20 complement each other very well.
ISEG frequently will pick up 21 cn something that the NSRB has noticed and will follow through 22 because the ISEG people are there on a day-to-day basis at 23 Sequoyah, at Browns Ferry.
The NSRB sort of constitutes 24 itself periodically, has a meeting, reviews various 25 activities.
ISEG frequently follows up on those activities.
l HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
163 1
If we think it is significant, we might assign it to Dick.
He PL 2
is our manager for the Nuclear Manager's Review Group to 3
specifically be tasked to close out an item or study it 4
further.
5 MR. CARROLL:
Where do the ISEG groups report?
6 MR FOX:
This is under the Director of Nuclear 7
Safety and Licensing, under Dick Gridley.
Mr. Whittaker is 8
our manager of the ISEG group.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Tell me more about this Nuclear 10 Msnager Review Group.
I don't know what it is.
11 MR. FOX:
It is a group of twenty some professional 12 individuals that we have had them do some things and review 13 maintenance.
They principally are the group that led to the 14 realization that we need to set up a corporate maintenar.ce i
15 group, that we were doing maintenance in a widely divergent i
16 manner at four sites.
We needed a corporate foc'as.
17 They also go out and look at things such as
'. 8 configuration management.
Go look at change of the control 19 board at the various sites.
We have put in a corporate 20 standard for configuration management.
We have tasked them to 21 follow up on that, to make sure that the sites are in fact l
22 keeping the records the way they should be.
23 One of the big problems we had in TVA is that we had 24 very poor records management and document contcS1 That at Sequoyah is a specific example.
We found out just last May 25 HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888 s
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that we were missiag 6,000 critical civil support calculations 2
on Unit 2 We ended 3p having to regenerate those 3
calculations at considerable expense to the rate payers just 4
because we didn't have good records management and document 5
control.
We opent a great deal of money reestablishing the 6
design basis of the plants and rationalizing the as designed, 7
as analyzed to the as constructed condition of the plant.
8 You may remember that in essence I have heard NRC 9
characterize it as tite, that we have had 12 to 15 years of 10 uncontrolled change at Browns Ferry, so what we have had to do 11 is go it, and re-establish the design basis, do some reanalysis 12 to vonfirm that the modifications that have been made over 13 that interim period of time in f act t re consistent with the 14 safety principles that we agreed to in the license, so those 15 are just a couple of specific things.
I 16 MR. CARROLL:
Who does the Nuclear Managers Review l
17 Beard?
18 KR. FOX:
With the review group, they report to me.
19 vice president, nuclear technical director.
1 20 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
And these 20 peop'le are from 21 all organizations?
22 MR. FOX:
No.
It is a fully staffed dedicated 23 group.
They go out at the direction of Admiral White, and 24 myself.
They look at whatever we feel is appropriate.
I will 25 give you a specific example of something that we have just HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
165 1
tasked them to do, and it is the next bullet on this chart.
I l_
2 Admiral White, before he will allow a unit to-3 restart, does a very exhaustive operational readiness review.
4 He brings in outside people that are basically independent of 5
line organization particularly at that plant to do a stem to 6
stern review to make sure that people, procedures and hardwure 7
have come together and the plant is ready to operate.
8 MR. CARROLL:
Stem to stern another one of those 9
Navy terms?
10 MR. FOX:
Yes, that is correct.
We have just 11 f;nished (n o.arational readiness review at Sequoyah on Unit 12 1.
Thst review had a number of findings.
The NMRG has been 13 tasked, as it was in the cas, of Unit 2, to go out and monitor 14 the disposition.
Joe Bynum will have the responsibilities for 15 implementing those findings that came out of that operational 16 readiness review.
We will have the NMRG go out and monitor, 17 make sure those items are closed.
That we found to be a very 18 effective way of closing *.ne Unit 2 items at Sequoyah.
19 This is another vehicle that we use as a shakedown 20 to make sure that we haven't missed something.
These are very 1
21 senior experienced people that do these types of reviews for 22 us.
Many of them are, well, Frank Fogarty is from EG&G.
He 23 has done a lot of work as an NRC contractor.
We have Bill 24 Spencer, Frank Carlson, who did the ORR on Pilgrim.
Ir fact, 25 Fogarty and Carlson were both involved in the Pilgrim HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
166 1
operational readiness review.
2 We have George Toto who was site director at Watts I
3 Bar for a period of time.
He is on the Sequoyah Unit 1 4
operational readiness review.
Gene Rogers; we alse; have Dick 5
Hamee on there.
He is the chairman of the NMRG, and it is a 6
natural adjunct since-he is on that to go ahead and follow up 7
and monitor the closure of those items, and that gives us 8
continuity.
That gives us a feel for the constitution of 9
those operational readiness reviews.
10 MR. BARTON:
Did I understand you to say you got 11 twenty people and that's their only responsibility?
12 MR. FOX:
Their responsible is to go out and to 13 review things.
That is at the request of the manager of 14 nuclear power, or the vice president and technical director, 15 and they also are out there continually probing.
They have 16 close interties with ISEG and with the NSkB as well.
17 MR. BARTON:
Don't have any other line 18 responsibility?
19 MR. FOX:
No other line re:p:nsibility; we don't 23 pull them out of line organization and say we want you to--
21 MR. BARTON:
Nobody is reporting to them?
22 MR. FOX:
Yes.
We have a line organization ins'ide 23 the MMRG.
There are two levels.
Dick Mamee is the manager 24 and level of supervision with supervisors reporting to him.
25 MR. BARTON:
Okay.
It has line within it?
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HR. FOX:
Yes.
Each of those three organizations PL 2
under Dick Mamee have specific task responsibilities.
In 3
other words, they operate specific areas such as Engineering 4
and Construction, Operations and Maintenance.
5 MR. CARROLL:
It is almost a corporate level ASEG.
6 MR. FOX:
That's a good way to put it.
7 HR. MICHELSON:
It was at one time a Board level 8
ISEG.
You just moved it down to under White?
9 MR. FOX:
That is correct.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
One time it reported directly to the 11 Board.
Now it does whatever you direct it; the vice president 12 or whatever he is.
13 HR. FOX:
Another facet of our nuclear safety 14 oversight of course is the PORC--Plant Oversight Review 15 Committee, which you are familiar with.
Admiral White also 16 has a site rep at each of the plants, and that individual 17 reports directly to a senior level individual independent of 18 the line organization, and their principle duty is to report 19 safety concerns and safety issues directly to him, and those 20 frequently get reviewed to the, whichever is the appropriate 21 body to deal with it--ISEG, the NMRG, or NSRB.
If it is a 22 substantial issue, then we go to Dr. Hannum 23 HR. CARROLL:
One guy?
24 NR. FOX:
One person.
25 MR. CARROLL:
What kind of background does he have?
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MR. FOX:
I will give you an example.
The site rep 2
that we have at Watts Bar until just recently was a Stone and 3
Webster employee with 2C some years of construction experience 4
engineering, construction experience.
His name was John 5
LaPointe.
John had most recently been with Stone and Webster 6
at Niagara Mohawk's Nine Mile plant, was the N5 specialist at 7
that site.
John is now or will be I guess effective Monday 8
the acting site director at Sequoyah.
He was moved about nine 9
or ten months ago to Sequoyah to deputy site director.
In 10 other words, we took him away from Admiral White and put him 11 in the line organization, and now he is acting site director, 12 will be acting site director next week there.
13 MR. CARROLL:
I relate better to operating things.
14 Tell me about the same guy at Sequoyah.
15 MR. FOX:
We hed Bob Buckhold at Sequoyah.
Until 16 just recently Bob had a tremendous number of years at the 17 Atomic Power Lab, and with General Electric he did have quite 18 a technical background in both engineering and in the 19 operation side.
20 We had a GE employee at Browns Ferry until just 21 recently, and he had quite an extensive background.
His name 22 was Dave Pulley.
Howard Cooper, Howard had a numbewr of years 23 with the Navy, and then was the site director at Browns Ferry, 24 in engineering with Stone and Webster.
1 25 MR. CARROLL:
Are any of these people TVA employees?
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MR. FOX:
No.
I 2
MR. CARROLL:
They are e;11 contractor?
L, 3
MR. FOX:
Right.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Since our last meeting with you, 5
problems have turned up relative to the operations of the PORC 6
committees.
7 Would you tell us just a little about those 8
problems, and why we would be led to believe they were not to 9
reoccur?
10 MR. FOX:
Well, the ANI, our insurers, had attended 11 a PORC meeting, and it had not been a particularly good PORC 12 meeting, and they raised some concerns about PORC.
13 They have since observed many more PORC meetings.
j 14 We made a number of improvements starting back in last 15 September to upgrade the PORCs at our various sites.
The ANI I
16 is now very satisfied that those are functioning well.
We 17 have, there was a lot of use of alternates at PORC meetings.
l 18 We were trying to have primaries attend.
We, Joe Bynum and 19 the people at Browns Ferry, have also takun a very hard look 20 at what kind of people should be constituting the PORC and are 21 we getting the right kind of hard review.
Those are just a 22 few, and Joe?
23 l
MR. BYNUM:
Part of the problem was that we were
'a s making the transition.
We had just changed Section 6 of the p-,
25 tech specs.
Sequoyah had the old tech specs.
PORC was HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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responsible for all the review and approval of procedures, and 2
design changes, and everything.
So it was c.,
it was really a 3
bulk procedure, review and approval process, and we had 4
implemented the new section 6, and I say new.
Section 6 is 5
more characteristic of the recently licensed plants where 6
there is a qualified reviewer process, and PORC really gets 7
more involved in overall safety oversight so we are making 8
that transition, in addition to the fact that we had just put 9
a new plant manager in at the site, so when they came in, the 10 plant manager was trying to establish a way of doing business 11 based on the new Section 6.
He was trying-to get people to 12 think, you know, not just purely reviewing approving 13 procedure, but thinking, you know, overall safety, oversight, 14 and he was working very hard with the PORC membership to make 15 that happen, and the ANI really saw this at the particular 16 time where we were trying to make the changes necessary to get 17 PORC to where it should be under the new tech specs, so a lot i
i l'
of the things that they saw, you know, we recognized, we knew 19 what he needed to do mnd we were in the peocess of doing that.
20 They are also making the same types of upgrades at Browns 21 Ferry.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
I would think you still have a 23 little problem there, too, with the qualifications.
24 MR. BYNUM:
We are not as far as long there as we 25 are at Sequoyah.
N HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. MICHELSON:
What did INPO say when they looked 2
into it'!
m 3
tlR. BYNUM:
I don't--I am trying to think about the 4
last INPO.
I can't answer that.
I don't remember anything 5
specific about that.
6 MR. FOX:
Since the ANI made that repert of the 7
concern ab;ut the effectiveness of the PORC, the NRC has been 8
substantially involved in observing our PORC neetings.
Our 9
own management people have overseen those.
The NSRB has 10 overseen a lot of PORC activity, and we have had plenty of 11 scrutiny, and I think we have got PORC--
12 MR. MICHELSON:
Here is what bothers me.
We have
^
13 been talking to you for two years now on TVA's problems, and 14 you explained to us all the good things you had going.
PORC 15 was one of them, and how it revie.wed everything, and everybody 16 was left with a warm feeling that everything was under good 17 control, and then to find out that although you have in place i
18 an operation, it was not at least on one occasion operating 19 effectively at all, it kind of shakes one's confidence in what 20 you are telling us.
21 MR. BYNUM:
Again, you were changing the whole focus 22 and the whole purpose of PORC.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
I realize that, but--
24 MR. BYNUM:
You wouldn't expect to see anything l~
25 different.
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MR. MICHELSON:
You didn't tell us a year and a half 2
ago when we pursued these things down at Sequoyah, all of 3
this, you didn't tell us now we have got a PORC process going, 4
it is not going well yet, we will get it going well later.
5 You didn't--
6 MR. FOX:
I don't think--you couldn't, Mr.
7 Michelson, you couldn't--
8 MR. BYNUM:
It was doing exactly what Section 6 of 9
the tech spec said it was supposed to do.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
I don't know.
It might have been 11 bad, but certainly on occasion we assured you what it was.
12 MR. BYNUM:
During 'nat period of time it was doing, 13 doing well, doing exactly what Section 6 of the tech specs 14 required it.
That's reviewing, reviewing approved procedures.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
What 19 Laie problem?
16 MR. BYNUM:
You know as well as I do that's not the 17 most effective use of those types of people.
That's why--
18 MR. MICHELSON:
Complained about--he didn't say l
19 anything about the effective use of people.
He complained 20 about the effective use of the process.
21 MR. BYNUM:
I don't think you understood what they 22 were saying.
The whole point--
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Maybe you can tell me what the 24 insurers told you.
25 MR. FOX:
We provided the ANI's letters and die HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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follow-up inspections to the NRC and I had understood the;>
f i_
2 provided them to ACRS.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
What did you think the insurers told 4
you?
What did you think their problem was?
5 MR. FOX:
They had, they were -I want to add one 6
thing to what Joe said.
They also were seeing the first PORC 7
meeting attended by a new plant marager with a different way 8
of doing business, so there was some added confusion in that 9
meeting.
10 They told us that we better look at PORC, and we 11 better assess it and make sure it is doing its job.
We ought 12 to look back and make sure we haven't had some ineffective 13 PORC activities that led to safety problems in the plant in 14 the past.
15 We did that, and they, the ANI was not inv61ved with i
16 the degree of the technical problems chat we had undert:aken. at 17 the plant, so they were coming in fairly new.
This particular i
18 new project manager, he was new on the job, and to him it 19 looked confusing.
Well, after having seen the safety net, the 20 large degree of programs that we had performed on the unit at 21 Sequoyah and up, 23 major technical areas, and seeing what we 22 had done, and then taking a spot check and past PORC action.
23 NRC looking and our own line management people looking, we 24 came away that PORC had not been ineffective.
l_
25 MR. BYNUM:
They actually said, and I want to be, I HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
174 1
want to clarify something, they actually said t.at the PORC 2-meeting they sat in on did accomplish the purpose.
They were 3
concerned that the new plant manager who was a very aggressive 4
individual, was literally having to lead people by.the hand 5
more than what they thought was necessary and'they were 6
concerned that PORC was one-man show.
That was the bottom 7
line of concern.
And they understood, though, that it was an 8
educational process and where we were and they wanted to 9
follow up on it.
10 MR. FOX:
And they have.
11 MR. CARROLL:
Like a lot of things that come out of 12 ANI, I would, I tend to take it with a grain of salt, i
13 MR. MICHELSON:
That was checked by the NRC as well, i
I 14 and I think the, the quality of the operation has since been
)
15 changed.
That was the impression I got.
It wasn't that the 16 NRC found that the quality didn't need changing.
It was 17 rather that it was changed: but--
18 MR. BYNUM:
The quality was changed, but again the i
19 focus was changed.
The reason the quality was allowed to 4
20 change is the tech specs changed and the focus was allowed to I
21 change.
That's the key point.
22 MR. GRIDLEY:
Charlie, you may add if you remember, 23 one of the real basic concerns that ANI had was that we 24 weren't communicating with them, so they didn't understand i
j 25 what the process was, so they had two concerns.
One is they I
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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didn't like the way this PORC meeting was baing run.
- Two, j
i b
2 they didn't know what the heck was going on because we weren't 3
communicating.
4 MR. FOX:
They really hadn't been brought up to 5
speed on what we were doing in the recovery program, so they 6
were on a learning curve as well.
7 HR. MICHELSON:
You are saying really there was 8
nothing wrong with the PORC process to begin with except the 9
insurer hit it on a bad day?
10 HR. FOX:
That was partially the reason, and there 11 is always room for improvement.
I don't think--you made the 12 statement that two years ago we told you we had it and it was 13 working fine.
You just don't change culture overnight.
It 14 takes time to develop the skills that are necessary to i
15 effectively run those types of' organizations, and when you are 16 starting down 20 points, you just don't catch up with one i
17 shot.
The improvement has been gradual.
The PORC has been l
18 deemed to be functioning adequately by the NRC, by our own 19 staff, and now by our ANI after getting more involved and 20 learning more about what we are doing.
I don't believe that P
21 PORC was ever ineffective.
There is always room for 22 improvement, and we have made improvements.
23 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Who does the safety reviews, 24 modifications?
Is that PORC and ISEG independently?
r,
\\
25 MR. FOX:
That's PORC.
4 HERITAGE RPPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
PORC does?
2 MR. BYNUM:
They do it plus again there is the, we 3
have the independent qualified reviewer process, which is 4
consistent with all the new plans, so there is an independent 5
qualified reviewer, who does a 50.59, and then there's the 6
PORC review.
7 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
That's reviewed by PORC?
8 MR. BYNUM:
That's a standard process.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
How about the larger modifications 10 that come from design, for instance, through the design 11 process?
12 MR. BYNUM:
There is an independent qualified 13 reviewer, and--
14 MR. MICHELSON:
The work is done in Knoxville.
It 15 is reviewed on site?
16 MR. BYNUM:
Absolutely; that is a part of the 17 engineering design procedure, absolutely.
You are required to 18 have 50.59.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes, I understand that.
20 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Is PORC then responsible for the 21 proper implementation scheduling and reviews or who is, I mean 22 of implementation?
23 MR. BYNUM:
No, sir.
That's really line management 24 responsibility.
25 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
I know, but there is safety l
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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177 1
implications.
Is that reviewed by PORC?
In other words, the F
i_
2 sequence you put the things in, for example.
3 MR. BYNUM:
No.
4 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Nobody reviews that?
5 MR. BYNUM:
Generally that is not unless--what 6
normally happens is in the 50.59, if there is a constraint on 7
plant operating conditions, you know, that those conditions 8
are required in order for the 50.59 to indicate that there is 9
not unreviewed safety questions, 50.59 itself will contain 10 those constraints.
In that case, they do get reviewed, but if 11 there is not a constraint like that identified through the 12 review process, the 50.59, then--
4 4
13 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
The independent reviewer himself
~
14 decides what sequence these various things go?
15 MR. BYNUM:
No.
The sequence that they are done in, 16 that's a whole another process, outage management work control 17 where SROs review the logic.
That goes into either a system 18 outage or a refueling outage, and there is a whole another 19 process that reviews those schedules that involves senior 20 reactor operator type people to do it.
21 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Who looks at the safety 22 implications of those?
23 MR. BYNUM:
Again the SROs look at the tech spec
\\
j 24 implications and safety implications.
25 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
I am talking about just the HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
178 i
1 logistics of making one modification and another modification, 2
and another modification, and somebody decides they are going 3
to do one ahead of the other, that certain safety implication.
4 MR. BYNUM:
That's the outage management group and 5
the wor?, control group.
6 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Safety people that look at that?
7 MR. BYNUM:
They have senior reactor operators.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
It is not an operational question.
9 It is not the kind of question necessarily a senior reactor 10 operator is even qualified to answer.
11 MR. BYNUM:
If it is not, then it is in the 50.59.
12 Then it is a constraint in 50.59 if that, if it is that case.
13 MR. MICHELSON:
Hopefully the designers realize in 14 what order things had to be done for them to be safely 15 implemented.
16 MR. BYNUM:
If that's the case, then--if that's the 17 case, then that is reflected in the safety analysis, safety 18 review and 50.59.
i 19 MR. MICHELSON:
That's right.
Sometimes you think 20 it is going to be done in one order and it is done in a 21 different order.
22 (A discussion was held off the record.)
j 23 HR. MICHELSON:
It has to be done by people i
24 qualified to do it and sometimes it is beyond an operator's i
25 understanding.
Don't tell me--an operator understands a lot, HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
179 1
but there are some things they don't appreciate.
I have read I_
2 numerous LERs in the last year in which incidents have 3
occurred wherein they found something was out, and the reason 4
it was out, it was thought to have been done but thuy put 5
something else in the work schedule ahead of it, it hasn't 6
been done, and mix-ups occur, and it is PORC's job to make 7
sure such mix-ups don't occur.
Scheduling is--they are the 8
ones that are operating the, safety for the operation.
9 MR. BYNUM:
I don't think you will find many PORCs 10 that actually review system outage schedules.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
They don't, and that was established 12 a little bit earlier.
Who does?
And you are telling me that I
13 the--
14 MR. BYNUM:
Two pieces; it is two pieces.
The first 15 piece is in the actual safety evaluation of the modifications, 16 because if there are specific plant configurations, or 17 specific other equipment configurations that are necessary, 18 then they should be, you know, outlined in the safety analyses 19 and in the unreviewed safety determination.
20 How then, all of those are put together in an 21 integrated schedule, and that integrated schedule is reviewed I 22 by several SRO type people, in addition to the system 23 engineers.
The system engineers will look at all of the i
24 outages for their systems, so there are really many people in
!'~
25 the outage management work control process that review that.
l HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
180 1
but it basically boils down to the safety analysis that comes 2
out of the design organization, the integrated scheduling and 3
review of that integrated scheduling by the SRO and system 4
engineers.
5 MR. HICHELSON:
I can see why the problem developed.
6 I used to wonder when I read some of the LERs how you get into 7
it, but it is a pretty complex problem because the engineer 8
off the back in the design when he did the safety review did 9
not know what might be in, what might be out at the time.
10 What order things would be in, he couldn't possibly know that.
11 It wasn't decided until later.
12 MR. BYNUM:
I agree.
He should take into 13 consideration, though, when he makes that design that if, you 14 P7ow, if there is a potential impact from some other piece of 15 equipment, he should flag that, yet he may not know what all 16 the system configurations are, but he should flag that.
The l
17 normal ones that you would say well, obviously you can't take 18 a train, RHR out of the B train, RHR out.
That's within the 19 scope of the SRO.
SRO '.s the best person to do that because 20 that's not involved in the specifics of the system itself and 21 how it is designed and how it is put together, so if he does 22 the engineering part, the SRO is the guy that does--most of l
23 the LERs you read you take B train out, and you work on A 24 train, and a component in A train, it turns out you have got 25 two trains.
Most of those, if you go back and look at them, i
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
181 1-they are tech spec items.
That's what'makes them LERs, and it 2
is the SRO level that didn't catch it.
It is not a real 3
detailed technical item that was in the design of it.
That 4
was just poor scheduling.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Generally it is caused by something 6
at the plant site being out of order.
7 MR. BYNUM:
That should be controlled by the SRO, to 8
review the schedule.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
The SRO, I am not sure we ever 10 looked at him being qualified.
It is easy to say train A, 11 train B.
The real world isn't quite that simple.
1 12 MR. BYNUM:
That's what most of them are if you go 13 look at them.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
They are more subtle.
15 MR. FOX:
The next topic under our safety oversight 16 is the employee concern program.
This program was set up back 17 in early 1986, and for the first several months, it was 18 receiving concerns at a rate of about 40 a month.
Now I am 19 pleased to report to you that the number of concerns that are 20 coming in on a per month basis now is only about a couple a 21 month, and surprisingly, even though we are almost a month 22 into this reduction in force, there has been no increase 23 whatsoever at this point in time of employee concerns.
24 MR. CARROLL:
We can re a chat a number of different 25 ways.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. FOX:
We read it, and we believe that it 2
indicates that the declining numbers and the number of people 3
that will bring a file or concern there and be comfortable to 4
go back and take it to line organization, and there are a 5
number of people that take them directly to the line 6
organization, and we think this is an indicator that people 7
are feeling much more comfortable in using the line 8
organization to address their concerns than they were a few 9
years ago.
10 The situation two years ago that was, there was a 11 backlog of some 6,000 employee concerns dealing with
- 12 activities at Watts Bar, Sequoyah, various plants.
We had to 13 work off all of those that were related to Sequoyah before we 14 could restart Unit 2 there, and in addition, we set up this 15 new program so that our employees had an avenue to get to us.
16 We looked at it as a very important safety valve for ptople to 17 be comfortable to come forward, telling us about safety 18 concerns that they had.
19 I can tell you that most of the concerns, about 60 20 percent of the concerns that come to us are mana'ement and g
21 personnel related, and a very small fraction of them are 22 safety concerns, and most of the people feel comfortable, and 23 when asked if they would feel comfortable in taking it back to 24 line organization, a lot of them are willing to try that.
If 25 they want confidentiality, they want to deal with it, turn.it HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
f 183 1
over to the employee concerns program, have it investigated, r
l_
2 and in fact that's their prerogative.
We see a lot of signs 3
that the people are feeling more comfortable working with the 4
line organization than they obviously were a few years ago.
5 HR. MICHELSON:
How do you treat the problem of an 6
employee coming to you with a concern and when you had in mind 7
reducing him in force the next week but you hadn't told him 8
yet?
9 Do you now have to refrain from reducing him or will 10 he just simply say that this was a--
11 HR. FOX:
That is a hypothetical situation.
I am 12 not aware of any of those that have arisen.
13 MR. MICHELSON:
I don't know, either.
14 MR. FOX:
Deal with them on a case-by-case basis if 15 a person has a bona fide concern.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
Does the, is the program designed to 17 handle complaints by people after they have left, in other 18 words, former employee concerns as we, as present employee 19 concerns?
20 MR. FOX:
Well, the former employee concerns was 21 handled through the employee consern task group, and that, 22 that was a fixed box of activities ': hat had to be 23 dispositioned at Sequoyah, for exanple, before we could 24 restart, and those that are generic to the Browns Ferry and 1
25 the Watts Bar program are being treated.
i l
184 1
MR. MICHEL. CON:
How about new one?
2 MR. FOX:
Treated by this body; in other words, this 3
is a real time living or part of the organization that deals 4
with employee concerns and as they arise.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Question, clarification--does it 6
deal also with former employee concerns as of a certain date 7
thereafter?
8 MR. FOX:
Yes.
The cutoff I belfave was February l
9 1st, 1986.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
As employees le.ve employment, they 11 might feel more free thereafter to express their concerns.
It 12 would still come back to you under this program?
13 MR. FOX:
Right.
14 MR. BYNUM:
There is also exit interview process.
15 MR. FOX:
I was--employees, both contractors and our 16 own people that leave the site are asked to fill out a turm 17 and to participate in an exit interview and they are 18 specifically asked if they have any concerns.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
You haven't started seeing the real 20 exodus yet?
In other words, you don't know yet whether or not 21 there is going to be concerns coming in?
22 MR. FOX:
We are three weeks in.
June 29th was the 23 date that people were starting to be notified, and a lot of 24 people will be off the payroll effective August the 1st or 25 thereafter.
Those that were in new organizations would have a HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)S28-4888 w
m
-g--
m
- rg
-9
185 1
90-day waiting period just because that's the way it is set
{_
2 up.
Those are out of the system.
The lion's share of the 3
people are already off the payroll.
1 4
MR. MICHELSON:
It will take a while yet to decide i
5 whether or not people are expressing concerns as they leave.
6 MR. FOX:
We are three weeks into it.
There has 7
been just very little, if any.
8 MA. MICHELSON:
Nobody has left yet.
9 MR. F07:
There have been some people.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
First half to leave under this 11 program in August.
12 HR. CxRROLL:
We are not wasting our time listening 13 to you guys today, are we?
You are going to be there next 14 week?
15 MR. FOX:
We will be here.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
I think so.
17 MR. BARTON:
You hopel 12 MR. MICHELSON:
You haven't identified, but you 19 certainly can easily identify for us any people that are no 20 longer working for TVA that were in say the division director 21 level and higher?
Have those been reduced in force at all?
22 MR. FOX:
The organization reduction as Admiral 23 White calls it, was not a bottom blow.
We looked at reducing 24 layering, to improve vertical communications to a number of p-,
.c 25 activities.
We looked--I don't have the statistics w!
2 me.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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I can provide them if you would like, but it was a 2
cross-section.
It was not a bottom blow.
We didn't get 3
secretaries and trades and labor.
We tried to have logic in i
4 what we were doing.
5 As I told you earlier, we reduced the horizons, that 6
we were pursuing at one time nine units.
Now we are focused 7
real hard on three, and doing the engineering verification on 8
the fourth unit.
That's what--we tried to effect our 9
reductions in such a manner as to in no way take away from 10 safety or quality of the work that we were trying to do.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
The unit argument is not directly 12 proportional.
Two units at Sequoyah require much of the same 13 effort that one unit at Sequoyah would require and so forth.
14 However, getting rid of Bellefonte got you a little bit, but 15 you weren't putting many people on Bellefonte anyway.
In 16 terms of brain power, I think the year, it has been a couple 17 of years since you put any real brain power on Bellefente, if 18 I understand my information correctly.
19 MR. FOX:
There were almost 1300 people there.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
How many of them were key engineers 21 and so forth?
22 MR. FOX:
That's a good point.
The key engineering 23 people were at Sequoyah and at Browns Ferry.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
That's where they still are.
25 MR. FOX:
The magnitude of the effort forced us to I
I HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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concentrate on plants that the Board of Directors wanted us to 2
get on line as soon as we could do so, ensuring very high 3
integrity of operation on the three units.
4 MR. CARROLL:
Did thia messy, this mekay thing we 5
have read about in the newspapers about the PRA guys, and 6
going to court and so forth, and is that a failure of the 7
employee concerns program?
Did they bring their concerns to 8
that program?
9 MR. FOX:
No.
l 10 MR. CARROLL:
That predates it, or they chose not to 11 do it?
12 MR. FOX:
They just : hose not to do it.
That's
~~
13 their prerogative.
14 MR. CARROLL:
How many other things like that are 15 going on?
16 MR. FOX:
There is an issue on Appendix R, and the 17 PRA issue, and those are the only ones that I am basically 18 aware.
Dick?
Joe?
19 MR. GRIDLEY:
Yes.
20 DR. REMICK:
The employee concern program I believe 21 was subcontracted out at one point.
Is it now run by TVA?
22 MR. FOX:
It is run by TVA people.
The Employee 23 Concern Task Group had a tremendous--it is a numb'er of 24 contractor employees that were supporting it.
A lot of 25 concerns were very technical in nature, and they had HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORA 7 ION --(202) 628-4888
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contractors such as Bechtel, Stone and Webster people, and 2
others that were helping them disposition those very technical 3
employee concerns.
These are now handled through our own line 4
organization.
5 I might add that the new employee concern program i
6 has received some 750 concerns since they have been in 7
existence, dating back to February of
'86, and they have 8
closed 450, so there is always a little log out there, but we 9
are effectively moving to close those things, and the fastest 10 way to resolve an individual's concern is to deal with it j
11 fairly promptly, and our people make a real strong effort to 12 do that.
13 HR. MICHELSON:
It is hard for me to believe that i
14 out of the numbers of people that have been reduced in force, 15 none of those had a concern in your inventory, and if they 16 did, certainly doesn't look like it is working.
17 MR. FOX:
We may not have seen the effects of the 18 reduction yet on the employee concern workload, but I am 19 telling you it is three weeks in.
i 20 MR. MICHELSON:
If an employee registers a concern 21 and then three months later he is reduced in force, he could 22 easily argue that it was because of his concern, and I just 23 wondered how you handled that, and I'm sure it is not a 24 hypothetical case.
With 450 active cases, as many people, you 25 know, 20 percent more or less in your force being reduced, HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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there is bound to be some hits.
IL 2
MR. FOX:
There may well be, yes.
3 MR MICHELSON:
It is a little bit of a problem.
It 4
has nothing to do with this concern.
Could easily also be 5
argued that it did.
6 MR. FOX:
Sure.
l 7
MR. MICHELSON:
In the case of the one that was 1
8 asked about the PRA people, how many hits did you make in that 3
organization, current reduction?
10 MR. FOX:
I don't know of any reductions.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
You might want to find out there 12 were no hits.
~
13 MR. FOX:
I am pretty sure there weren't.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
There were hits in a number of other 15 organizations doing equally important work in that same area.
16 MR. BARTON:
In the cutback in the operating 17 organization at the stations, who primarily made the, chose 18 the people that they could get along without?
Is that the j
19 station manager.
20 MR. FOX:
I am going--let's let Joe Bynum cover that 21 when he gets up in just a few minutes.
That's part of his, as 22 I mentioned to you earlier, that's the ISEG.
We have 23 dedicated individuals at each of the sites, at Sequoyah and 24 Browns Ferry, four at Browns Ferry, three at Sequoyah.
We 25 have four people in corporate.
They do put out formal monthly HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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reports.
Those are provided to the NRC.
They do have regular i
2 coordination meetings with the NSRB.
They have found some 3
problems, problems of contair. ment cooling at Sequoyah.
They 4
raised the question on the ERCW check valves not being able to 5
be, to pass the test; concerned about the hard seats and the 6
crud that formed on those hard seats.
That made it very 7
difficult to pass those tests.
8 They brought that to our attention.
They also 9
mentioned the spill that had significant consequences as far 10 as we were concerned, and ISEG was the one.
They brought it 11 to us before line management did from Sequoyah.
12 MR. CARROLL:
Is Joe going to tell us whether they 13 told line management when that happened?
14 MR. FOX:
We went and fixed it.
15 MR. GRIDLEY:
He is going to make the point that the 16 line management is very aggressive on ISEG training.
They are 17 timely, and they get tracked, so it is working.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
ISEG 21st group?
19 MR. FOX:
No.
First 20 plus; 23 I believe is the 20 exact number.
That's NMRG.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
How large is that?
22 MR. FOX:
ISEG is 12 people--four people, pardon me; 23 three people at Sequoyah, four people at Browns Ferry.
There 24 are four in our corporate offices.
25 DR. REMICK:
These are full-time on ISEG, and they I
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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1 are free wheelina?
l 2
MR. FOX:
Yes.
They look at LERs, 50.59s, do a 3
pretty thorough--we're very impressed with the quality of work 4
that they do.
5 DR. REMICK:
Not just what is brought to them?
1 6
MR. FOX:
They are in the plant on a day-to-day i
7 base.
I think that complements the NSRB real well, they can 8
follow up on items that the NSRB comes in and finds when they 9
are there for their periodic two-day meeting.
And yes, they 10 do have the freedom to roam around, and to look for problems 11 of their own accord.
l 12 MR. CARROLL:
How many of them have SRLs?
)
'-~
13 MR. FOX:
I don't have--
14 MR. GRIDLEY:
Right now, Jay, I think we have got 15 three STAS, but we, they aren't going clear through to the 16 SRO, but they will have STA training.
The plant, they will 17 all have STA training,, being qualify up to that level.
18 MR. CARROLL:
Have you regarded this as an 19 assignment and, training kind of assignment?
Guys aren't 20 stuck in it forever?
21 MR. GRIDLEY:
I, my personal opinion is that it is a 22 career development assignment.
Eventually you move on to 23 something else.
We want to have an alternative for that 24 group.
25 MR. CARROLL:
Better for their sake and for the sake HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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of getting the job done.
2 MR. GRIDLEY:
Right.
And I'm counting on Joe Bynum f
3 to hire them!
l 4
MR. BARTON:
Out of the review groups we have talked l
5 about, which group has the responsibility to investigate and j
6 write the LERs, or investigate unusual events?
Is it one of 7
these groups that does that?
8 MR. BYNUM:
No.
There is another group over the 9
plant organization.
I will show you where that is.
10 HR. BARTON:
I keeping jumping ahead.
I'm sorry.
11 MR. GRIDLEY:
You want to get to operations, Paul.
12 MR. FOX:
With regard to long-term program and 13 commitments, I heard the question asked by I believe Mr.
14 Michelson this morning, about commitments.
15 We do have a computerized commitment tracking 16 oystem.
We have a missed items exception report that goes to 17 senior management.
It is not--well, received by senior 18 management.
We do look to missed commitments.
He don't plan 19 to abrogate any of the commitments that we have made to the 20 NRC on the plants that we are focusing the attention on now.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
Is this just NRC commitments in that 22 listing?
23 MR. FOX:
We have a data base that is strictly 24 dedicated to licensing commitments.
It is our CCTS system.
25 We have another tracking system, TROY, which we use for HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888 D
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tracking a lot of QA open items and other items that are open h_
2 for corrective action items throughout the nuclear power 3
group.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
How often do you go back and review-5 this long term commitment list to see if it is still accurate?
6 Once a year or once a month or how is it done?
How do you 7
know it is a six-year lead item?
How often do you check it-to 8
see?
9 MR. FOX:
Generally on most of those commitments, we 10 create a project with a specific defined scope and cost
]
l 11 estimate, and then we have an expenditure control committee 12 that is responsible for overseeing--Dick Gridley is 13 responsible for tracking, and his licensing people at the 14 sites are responsible for making sure that the progress is 15 being made toward the commitments, and NRC comes, audits us on 16 our progress being made toward commitments.
17 HR. GOODWIN:
And whenever asked I believe for TVA 18 to provide update, quarterly updates of changed days 19 missed--is that correct?
20 MR. GRIDLEY:
Yes.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
Clearly in the case of TVA it would 22 be no imposition if it were a requirement to send out this 23 list once a year updated.
24 MR. GOODWIN:
It is a weekly enforcible document.
I 25 think it is clearly understood between us that, that the HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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maintenance and keeping up to date of that system is very 2
close~to a requiremenu.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
But TVA wouldn't do it any 4
differently if it were a requirement, would they?
5 MR. GOODWIN:
I would hope not.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
It isn't a requirement as a matter 7
of fact.
There would be no imposition on TVA if they sent NRC 8
s'ich a list once a year, and--
9 MR. GOODWIN:
They sand it to us quarterly.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
I realize that, but when we asked i
11 why don't we once a year get these things updated and you 12 begin to give me a story about how much resources it would 13 take industry to do it, maybe in some it would, but in the 14 case of TVA, I think the answer is no additional resources.
15 They are already doing it.
16 MR. GRIDLEY:
Carl, I think you and I talked about 17 this before.
The way we discipline ours in this area is we 18 proceduralize.
We have a procedure that requires us to do 19 this system and report.
We don't--we have a CAQR written.
We 20 go through that whole process.
I am very comfortable with the 21 way TVA approaches this.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
This would be, there would be no 23 imposition if there were a requirement because you already are 24 doing it?
25 MR. GRIDLEY:
We do it anyway.
liERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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DR. REMICK:
Just depends how that requirement reads Iil 2
and how detailed, prescriptive, and all that, too, I would 3
assume.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
I think we are talking about some 5
reasonable requirement and in a reasonable reporting period 6
like maybe once a year.
7 DR. REMICK:
Reasonable like the NRC puts out.
8 MR. GRIDLEY:
Of course, when we wrote this 9
procedure back in '86, the requirements placed on us by 10 Admiral White were quite a bit substantially more than to meet 11 any requirements from the NRC, and that's the way that 12 procedure was written, and he has been very demanding that we
~~
13 meet those commitments.
14 MR. FOX:
And it is our intent that we will meet our 15 commitments and we feel like our budgets and our staffing are 16 consistent with meeting those commitments.
We will not 17 sacrifice safety and quality.
That's the punch line.
18 Now I will turn it over to Joe Bynum.
He can 19 explain.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
One other clarification--this l
21 commitment list includes all the items that you might have 22 agreed to do when the staff did an SER for a particular i
23 project and problem or whatever, is that correct?
24 MR. GRIDLEY:
Yes, sir, absolutely.
~
25 MR. MICHELSON:
This is tracking, for instance, HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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- ~. -,.
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typically tracking all the SERrequirements?
2 MR. GRIDLEY:
Tracking and effecting.
3 MR. FOX:
Joe Bynum will now address the facts of 4
the reorganization on his plants.
5 MR. BYNUM:
First thing I would like to do is go 6
over the site organization and plant manager's organization, 7
and then we will get more into the numbers, but you can see 8
how the organization is actually set up.
l 9
As you can see, the senior vice president, Mr.
10 White, I report directly to him and the site directors at each 11 site for Browns Ferry and Sequoyah then report to me.
12 In addition, because of the unique circumstances we 13 have at Browns Ferry, we also have a restart task force 14 mar
.cment team, and we have Chuck Mason in this position at 15 Browns Ferry.
Let me go across the bottom boxes and I will 16 give you an idea of what functions.
I realize some of these 17 names you will recognize and understand.
Some of them you 18 won't.
19 Under the site support manager, what we have under i
20 there is our administrative services.
That is clerical and 21 thar. type of thing, radiological emergency planning.
22 Facilities management, that's all the space allocation, and 23 upkeep cf the facilities, and industrial safety, and those are 24 all directly tied to this individual.
25 In addition to that, we have two matrix HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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organizations, and I am going to be talking in a few minutes, p-,
L_
2 about matrix organizations in a minute.
Matrix organizations 3
that are under that manager are security, and are human 4
resources, are personnel type people, and procurement is 5
pretty much the standard.
That is your warehousing and your 6
procurement.
7 In addition to that, we also have the tool rooms and 8
M and TE out of this group, centralized M and TE.
Site 9
programs manager contains the site procedures group, and as 10 you know, at both sites, we have a significant procedures 11 upgrade program going on, so procedure upgrade program is 12 under this individual.
13 Configuration management, and this is a small group 14 that literally ensures that the whole configuration management 15 design through the drawing updates, all of those things is 16 maintained.
It is kind of oversight of that process.
17 HR. CARROLL:
Past the point where they now 18 understand what configuration management is.
Now they are 19 doing it.
20 HR. BYNUM:
Yes, sir.
Our corrective action 21 program, our CAQ program is under this program manager.
Those 22 again are all hard line.
The matrix organizations are 23 document control, and ADP.
We mentioned data processing and 24 training.
Project controls, the financial services, is pretty 25 traditional in that it has got all the financial things in it, HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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1 but it is also for our sites, the group that has the f-2 integrated schedule.
I am talking about the integrr,ced i
3 scheduling for the plant, for the site taking into 4
consideration the engineering, the modifications, a group that 5
is also the outage scheduling group.
6 In addition to that, we have a project management 7
organization, and that's where we assign the project managers 8
for all of the major projects.
That's all under the project 9
controls and financial services.
10 The plant manager, I will go over his organization 11 in just a minute, but it is a traditional plant manager's 12 organization.
I have shown here the site quality assurance, 13 site licensing, site engineering, site construction.
On this 14 chart, and I guess to address Mr. Michelson's point about dual 15 lines, I think we have really done a good job at a complex 16 issue, and that is how do you let the site director have 17 enough control of his destiny, give him the proper resources 18 to do his job, and yet still maintain the consistency among 19 each site, the consistency and the methods for doing 20 licensing, methods for doing engineering, methods for doing 21 construction?
So that's really how we work our matrix 22 organizations.
23 The how to, the specific methods, and this even gets 24 down into the plant manager's organization like chemistry and 25 RAD CON, we have program managers who really establish the HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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standards, but this site director and this plant manager are f
2 the guys that actually say here is when you do it, these are 3
your priorities, and this is what I want done, so basically 4
our matrixed organization, we have program responsibilities 5
which ensures the consistency from site to site and ensures 6
that we have corporate oversights of the standards, but yet 7
the day-to-day direction is given at the site level.
We feel 8
like that's a good balance in accomplishing our purposes.
9 That's the site organization.
Now let's talk about 10 the plant managers.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
Before we leave site organizations, 12 engineering, let me ask the question, I think I understand how 13 you handle operations, the systems integration question.
14 How do you handle it, the site engineering back at, 15 in Knoxville and Nuclear Engineering?
How do you handle 16 systems integration?
You have systems engineers?
You use 17 traditional mechanical electrical and let them talk back and 18 forth?
19 MR. BYNUM:
What we basically do is a systems 20 engineer under the plant manager will go to a given 21 discipline.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
You do have one in the plant manager 23 level, and he is mostly interested in system operations?
24 MR. BYNUM:
That's right.
25 MR. MICHELSON:
System level now, how do you assure HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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system integration of the design level?
2 MR. BYNUM:
Basically what we do is we go, or the 3
site engineering manager,.the project emgomeer, basically 4
picks, you know, the most likely discipline.
In other words, 5
if is a, if you are changing out a big motor or something 6
and it is basically an electrical issue or diesel generator 7
issue, then you will go to the basic discipline that has the 8
bulk of the responsibility.
It is then his job to pull in all 9
the other disciplines and see that it, it is coordinated into 10 a coordinated design co that you can give that to the 11 modifications people.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
There apparently isn't a systems 13 engineer as such?
14 MR. BYNUM:
At this, at this time, there is not.
15 Now that's something that we have discussed as a corollary to 16 the systems engineer in plant, corollary to that site 17 engineer.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
At least on site.
19 MR. BYNUM:
We have discussed that.
In fact, 20 Charlie Fox and I have discussed that, and we are still really 21 thinking about that.
22 HR. MICHELSON:
I ran into a little interesting 23 problem which the committee maybe should be aware of, and that 24 is I was looking a little bit at the fire protection at 25 Sequoyah, so I solicited your document dealing with your fire HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
201 1
protection philosophy for Sequoyah, and it was interesting to IL 2
find that all that document did is told me what I needed to 3
protect, but it told me now I have to go and read electrical 4
engineering document to find out how to protect, and I've got 5
to go to yet another document I don't even know the source of 6
to provide where the implementation rules were.
I've got to 7
chase, turned out I had to chase about eight or nine different 8
discipline documents.
I haven't gotten them all yet.
I have 9
only asked for two because I can't chase forever, but it is a 10 s trange way of---I don ' t know how you integrate fire protection 11 when you have spread it around the whole organization without 12 a central point that you can talk to that is one integrated 13 fire protection.
14 MR. BYNUM:
I think if you look at that, though, at 10 least in the other plants I have been at, that's pretty 16 standard.
It is very seldom that you find fire protection 17 wrapped up in one document.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
Not for other utilities; I have got 19 several fire protection reports from other utilities.
None of 20 them handled the problem this way, and I thought I was getting 21 the right document.
It turned out it is just a portion of the 22 process, and I realize then that you divided the process, 23 There is no integrating point.
I have to go to each of the 24 individual points.
iL 25 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. MICHELSON:
I found that-to be disturbing at 2
best.
3 DR. REMICK:
You indicated training is in the site 4
program manager.
The training is in the site, under the site 5
program manager.
There is--
6 MR. BYNUM:
There is a site training manager, and I 7
think you are familiar, maybe not familiar, at Browns Ferry, 8
of course, we have a training facility down in there with the 9
simulator and there is a training manager, and again he gets 10 his prograrnstic requirements from Joe Johnson at the power 11 operation training center.
The power opera' tion training 12 center is a training facility for Sequoyah at this time, and 13 it has a Sequoyah simulator, but likewise f.here is a training 14 manager in that facility that reports to Joe, but is matrixed 15 to this, this one.
16 DR. REMICK:
How about to the plant manager?
What 17 is the tie-in to the plant manager?
18 HR. BYNUM:
This--actually the site support manager 19 really handles that for the plant manager.
In other words, 20 the licensing training is out of Sequoyah, coordinated between 21 the licensing training section, in that training organization, 22 directly with the operations section, and the, and the plant 23 manager's organization, so they basically talk on that level.
24 The reason that we put it up here is because of all of the 25 additional training, the site-specific training, controlled HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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access and things like that.
f_
2 MR. CARROLL:
Does the site director, directors, 3
feel that they are getting the right priorities, the right--
4 MR. BYNUM:
Obviously you never totally please a 5
site director.
6 MR. CARROLL:
You might make him happier if you put 7
all the training under him with the dotted line to Kirby.
8 MR. BYNUM:
I think you will find in the cases at 9
least of Browns Ferry and Sequoyah I think both of those site 10 directors will say that they are getting the support that they 11 need, yes.
12 MR. BARTON:
To clarify that organization a little 13 bit, when you say right up there the site director, there is 14 one of those for each site?
15 MR. BYNUM:
Yes, sir.
16 MR. BARTON:
Coming to the left of that station 17 manager, all right; is there one of those at each site?
l 18 MR. BYNUM:
Yes, sir.
19 HR. BARTON:
Those on the left side do not report to 20 the station manager?
21 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
22 MR. BARTON:
You have got that many positions?
23 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
24 MR. BARTON:
Under the site director, those under L
25 the plant manager over on the right-hand side, is that quality HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4838
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assurar.Je people?
They are at a site, bt c they report to the 2
vice rresident up above?
3 MR. BYNUM:
No.
They actually--again, they take 4
their, their technical direction with regard to how to do 5
something from this individual, but they take their specific 6
direction, you go work on this job today, and this one 7
tomorrow, from the site director.
8 MR. BARTON:
Salary review is done by the site 9
director?
10 MR. BYNUM:
No.
It is a combination.
The salary l
11 review is actually signed by this individual, but it is 12 reviewed by this individual.
13 MR. BARTON:
Okay.
That really controls it, who 14 signs that piece of paper.
15 MR. BYNUM:
This is the guy that controls what that 16 guy does on a day-to-day basis.
No question about it.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
Before you leave this slide, let me 18 go back to my question again, and somewhat of a concern about 19 how you integrate larger kinds of projects like fire 20 protection.
21 How did you do a safety review at the site level if 22 you didn't have a systems engineer doing engineering, and the 23 engineering itself was divided among several parts of 24 Knoxville?
Who doec the integrated review?
25 MR. BYNUM:
Normally a large program like that would HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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have a program manager, f
2 MR. MICHELSON:
Let's take a smaller program, i
3 smaller fix then, a fix that required the els trical and 4
mechanical and civil work.
So you had three places back in 5
Knoxville.
Each did their piece.
6 How does Knoxville integrate all the pieces?
Who 7
integrates them to do a safety review?
8 MR. BYNUM:
Again, there is a lead organization.
It 9
is not like three independent people.
There is a lead 10 organization and that lead organization right now takes all 11 the necessary technical information to roll into one USGD from 12 the other disciplines.
~
13 MR. MICHELSON:
They do the integrated systems 14 review?
15 MR. BYNUM:
There is a lead organization to do that.
16 MR. MICHELSON:
And somebody is always named the 17 lead, depending where most of the work is?
l 18 MR. BYNUM:
If it is a very large project, there j
19 will ac?.ually be a project manager in this group right here 20 that looks overall for budget, senedule control, and all of 21 that, that will interface with the engineering disciplines.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
I guess what you are telling me is 23 that each of these major organizations in Knoxville have its 24 own safety review group because it reviews safety on the job r-iL_.
25 as the major responsibility?
Is that what you are saying?
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. BYNUM:
There are a couple of things.
One is 2
they each have their qualified reviewer, in-house qualified 3
reviewer process, and then also there is an engineering 4
assurance function which provides an overall QH--
5 MR. MICHELSON:
They don't do safety reviews?
6 MR. BYNUM:
They do overall evaluation to be sure 7
that all the requirements are met.
8 MR. MICHELSON:
They look at the process if I 9
understand it correctly, not the individual fix per se?
10 MR. BYNUM:
They make sure all the process is 11 complete.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
I am trying get a fix on the 13 question of let's say a system, just electrical, mechanical, 14 the majority of the work is electrical.
The electricals have 15 to do the safety review?
16 HR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
17 MR. MICHE SON:
Even thought it is mechanical in 18 part?
19 MR. BYNUM:
They get appropriate technice.1 20 information that is mechanical.
21 MR. MICHE'sSON:
What do you do in the case of the 22 nuclear staff for, in Knoxville?
23 MR. BYNUM:
In some caa e in some cases, they will 24 do that.
It depends on what it is it depends on what the 25 mod is and whether, whether it ties directly into the safety HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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analyses and how it ties into, directly into the safety 2
analyses.
Oftentimes the nuclear group will do that.
3 MR. MICHELSON:
And you are comfortable each of l
4 these groups is staffed to do it?
5 MR. BYNUM:
Yes, sir.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
Not just--there is no central point l
7 system review then?
j 8
MR. BYNUM:
Right.
9 MR. CARROLL:
Well, you did mention systems 10 engineers, and we never have gotten to your chart, so I would j
11 like to--
12 MR. BYNUM:
I do have it.
I
~
13 MR. CARROLL:
Reserve my question until we get 14 there.
15 MR. BYNUM:
This is the plant manager's 16 organization.
Again, this is pretty much the classic, classic 17 plant organization.
Again, if you go back to the previous 18 chart, what we have tried to do is really take those--and one 19 question that was asked was you have all of theco other guys 20 reporting to the site director.
What we tried to do was take 21 the essential functions for the day-to-day operation of the 22 plant, let that plant manager focus on those essential 23 functions, and let se.nebody else worry about the budgets and 24 integrated schedule. and financial aspects and security and p_,
L 25 many of those ot'4ers as we felt like they are not absolutely HER7FAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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1 critical to the day-to-day operation, so this is the plant i
i 2
manager organization.
3 Maintenance is a typical standard electrical line, 4
mechanical, discipline-oriented organization.
Operations has, 5
of course, the shift supervisor organization, and in addition 6
to that, we took the water, we took forward a group called 7
water and waste processing where the rad waste equipment and 8
the mineralizers and those types of the operation, those are 9
still under operations, but they are in a separate group so 10 that they can be managed and coord.nated with the shift 11 supervisor, but they are still in operations, but there is a 12 separate group.
13 Typical health physics organization, rad control, 14 plant support superintendent; you asked about who does plant 1
15 assessment and plant reporting?
There is a group, actually i
16 three groups, in the plant support group.
One of those groups 17 does plant assessment, and they are trained pla.it managers.
18 It says post-trip review.
They get involved in that.
STA 19 takes the lead on shift and the plant operations review staff 20 people come in.
They are trained in FORTRAN, t1 ?ast one 21 other root cause technique.
The LERs and plant reports are 22 generated out of that group also in a separate section.
23 Also this contains the fire protection organization.
24 We have a fire protection group where we have essentially six 25 firefighters per shift assigned or dedicated for fire HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
209 1
protection.
They also do the surveillances, fire protection g-,
y 2
surveillances on the fire protection systems.
3 Work control and outage, we have established a work 4
control group where we try to bring all of the work activity, 5
the surveillance instructions, the emergent work that comes up 6
the schedule work, the schedule where we have to take a system 7
outage and system outage work.
They maintain a forced-outage 8
schedule so that we actually are forced down--we already have 9
a set schedule, depending on whether we have to go into Mode 5 10 or stay in Mode 3, of work items that need to be done, When 11 we actually go into an outage, the outage manager or outage I
12 superintendent literally takes control of the plant for the 13 plant manager as far as directing the activities.
Obviously i
14 the operation superintendent of shift supervisor still i
15 maintains tech spec control over the plant, but he takes 16 control of the actual scheduling and coordination.
17 Technical support, this is where the system 18 engineers are.
Technical support basically has reactor 19 engineers, shift technical advisors, and then it has system 20 engineers, and we basically have system engineers broken down 21 into NSSS systems, balance of plant systems, and electrical 22 and HVAC systems.
Always in this group we have a technical 23 support or technical program group that takes care of things 24 likes snubber, vibration, those types of technical programs.
l l_
25 Chemistry again is the standard chemistry HERITAGE REPORTING CORew JION --(202)628-4888
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210 1
organizations under the plant manager.
And then for Browns 2
Ferry, we have the restart task manager which is Browns 3
Ferry's only group.
4 DR. REMICK:
Would you go back to fire brigade?
I 5
thought you said you had six people.
6 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
7 DR. REMICK:
On site; is that their full-time duty?
8 They have no other assignments?
Are they like firemen?
9 MR. BYNUM:
Yes, sir.
10 DR. REMICK:
Is it like reactor operator jobs being 11 boring?
12 MR. BYNUM:
They also do the surveillances on fire 13 protection equipment.
If you loo *4 at the monthly 14 surveillances that are due on ff.re protection systems that's 15 pretty much a full-time job.
l 16 DR. REMICK:
There are six people?
l 17 MR. BYNUM:
They also do the EMT response.
They are
)
18 EMT qualified, but it is pretty much n full-time job.
19 HR. MICHELSON:
They are shift work also?
Only a l
20 couple at one time around I guess.
21 MR. BYNUM:
Pardon?
22 MR. MICHELSON:
Only have six total?
23 MR. BYNUM:
Six per shift; fire brigade tech spec 24 minimum is five.
You have to have fire for fire brigade by 25 technical specifications.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. CARROLL:
They can be called operators?
i L
2 MR. BYNUM:
Absolutely; a lot of places they do.
3 More and more plants; I guess we are probably, I don't know, 4
maybe the fourth or fifth plant to go to the fire brigade 5
concept.
6 The real reason for that, though, and the reason 7
that we chose to go to that is because of the training.
Fire 8
brigade training is very significant and it is a big drain on 9
an operator's time because of the increased operator training 10 that is required, so 12 is getting to be very, very difficult 11 to have an auxiliary operator or a system shift supervisor to 12 maintain both sets of training and qualifications.
13 MR. MICHELSON:
One operator type has to be on each 14 shift?
15 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
You have to have a 16 designated fire brigade leader that has the knowledge of an l
17 operator.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
Is he also working on that shift as 19 an operator?
20 MR. BYNUM:
He is a regular operator on shift, but 21 he is designated to respond in case of a fire or emergency.
22 HR. MICHELSON:
Six more people waiting in the wings 23 when he needs them?
24 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
r_,
IL_
25 HR. BARTON:
Do they also do the fire watches on HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
212 1
barrier, fire barrier?
2 MR. BYNUM:
That is actually why we have six.
3 Normally you have the fire brigade responders.
Then we have 4
one that normally is occupied as a fire brigade, as a fire 5
watch.
6 MR. BARTON:
Make the rounds for any equipment that 7
is out of service?
8 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
And that's normally 9
the way it works.
10 DR. REMICK:
How frequently do they have a fire to 11 respond to?
12 MR. BYNUM:
Well, it really depends on the mode you 13 are in.
Obviously, with a lot of the more modifications type 14 work that you have done, the more likely it is because you get 15 a weld spark or something like that, so it is probably once or 16 twice a week and then plus--
17 DR. REMICK:
That frequent?
18 MR. BYNUM:
Plus you respond to medical emerJencies 19 also.
I would say a couple of times a week.
20 MR. BARTON:
They are medically trained, too?
21 MR. BYNUM:
They are EMTs.
Okay.
22 MR. CARROLL:
Let's go back to my favorite 23 subject--systems engineering.
Tell me about the experience, l
24 qualifications of the people.
25 MR. BYNUM:
Right now what we have done is we took, HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
I 213 1
we have taken--we are just really getting this program in full 2
swing.
We have taken people that were in our engineering 3
group as mechanical test people.
We have taken people from 4
Division of Nuclear Engineering, DNE.
We actually got ten 5
engineers from there.
We have taken people that came out of 6
our pre-op group that were in a retest program for Unit 2 and 7
put them in the systems engineering group, that they really 8
come from a lot of different places.
That's pretty much it.
9 Basically what we expect the systems engineer to do 10 is he is the guy that is responsible for keeping up with that 11 system for doing the surveillance instructions, and keeping up 12 with how that system is operating.
13 If a modification is needed, he is really the 14 contact with DNE.
Say we need a modification, this is the 15 type modification we need.
You will review the DNE scope.
16 Once DNE scopes the job, he will review that scope, and 17 literally approve it for the plant manager.
He will review 18 the final design of the modification.
19 If Maintenance has a prcblem, one other place we 20 have got systems engineers is we had maintenance engineers and 21 maintenance department, and then we had these mechanical test 22 peopli and other engineers.
Tech Support took some of the 23 maint'tance engineers.
Now we did leave some engineers in the 24 plann: r g group, in Maintenance, because I think.
I am a firm 25 believer you need to have that type of discipline in the HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
i 214 1
maintenance organizations technically when you get complicated i
2 procedures and things like that, but we did take a pretty.
3 significant portion of the maintenance engineers and put them 4
in that group also, so they respond, if Maintenance teally 5
runs into a problem, it is a one-man clearing house for 6
problems on the system, you call that guy and he is 7
responsible for getting the problem back, the system back 8
running, and so forth.
9 MR. CARROLL:
For Carl's little modification, it is 10 going to involve mechanical at.d electrical engineering.
There 11 would be a systems engineer that is sort of overviewing tne 12 whole thing?
13 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
14 MR. CARROLL:
And integrating things, and looking 15 for interface issues?
16 MR. MICHELSON:
He is not a design engineer.
17 MR. BYNUM:
And looking, mostly what that guy is 18 looking for is he is looking to be sure that that modification 19 really does what the operator or whoever wanted it to do.
He 20 is not the discipline design engineer.
He is really the guy 21 that looks at it and says yes, I believe that modification is 22 going to fix our problem.
23 MR. CARROLL:
Is he looking for tnings like we are L
24 going to put enis penetration seal in anti we shouldn't use a 25 candle to see if--
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
215 1
MR. BYNUM:
The systems engineer eyes look at the IL 2
retest requirements.
That's one of his jobs, and that's a 3
good--retest requirements for post-modification testing or 4
post-maintenance testing, yes.
5 DR. REMICK:
Do any of your STAS get trained as a 6
systems engineer or vice-versa?
7 MR. BYNUM:
That is one of the things that we are 8
looking at right now.
Right now they are two separate groups 9
and we had not used STAS as system engineers like we haven't 10 used systems engineers as STAS, but they are now in the same 11 organization.
12 One thing we have done with STAS is that we have set 13 up a six shif t rotation wi',h those.
We have put them, we have 14 literally assigned them a given operation shift and they 15 rotate with that operations crew, and we integrate them into 16 requal training and--
17 DR. REMICK:
Simulator?
18 MR. BYNUM:
On a simulator, that is correct, so 19 that's really a full-time job.
We thought about assigning 20 systems to STAS I think probably, and that just won't work.
I 21 think what we will end up doing is once we get enough trained 22 STAS, and I think, of course, it requires six, and I believe 23 we have, I believe we have ten slots for that, once we get the 24 additional three or four, we may use those system engineers 25 and vice-versa, trained systems engineers as STAS.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATIO?' --(202)628-4888
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DR. REMICK:
We think the experienced STA would make 2
a good systems engineer.
t 3
HR. BYNUM:
No question about it.
4 DR. REMICK:
He has a better feeling for what 5
operations he is going to need.
6 MR. BYNUM:
No question about it.
7 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
When we were down in Sequoyah, we 8
talked to the people out in the diesel generator area and 9
there was a fellow there that I thought was the systems 10 engineering on the diesel generator.
11 Is that the same fellow we are talking about?
12 MR. BYNUM:
It could very well have been.
It should 13 have been.
14 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Was he the fellow we talked to 15 about the inadvertent operation of the CO2 system, and on the 16 effects of the diesel generator?
17 MR. BYNUM:
It should have been.
It may have been 18 one of the design engineers also, could have been either one.
19 MR. CARROLL:
How do the systems engineers on a 20 given mod get involved in ALARA considerations?
21 MR. BYNUM:
Basically they reclly don't get 22 significantly involved in the ALARA issues.
That's really a 23 function of a RAD CON organization.
They have the ALARA 24 reviews for modifications.
That's--a standard part again of 25 the modification packages is the ALARA review, and generally 1
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
217 1
that's not done by the. systems engineers, fi 2
CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
In this organization, in your 3
manpower cutback, how much has that affected this?
4 MR. BYNUM:
Let's put the slide that Charlie had on 5
the back and I will talk some numbers with you.
6 MR. CARROLL:
Before we leave these two work charts, 7
I think it would be helpful to us particularly before this 8
gets to the full ACRS, if you could do what you did orally 9
here and fill in what the functions are.
10 MR. BYNUM:
What you want is my sheet that I read 11 those things off?
12 MR. CARROLL:
Yes.
That would be nice.
13 MR. BYNUM:
Okay.
In looking at this, let me give 14 you a little bit different breakdown of this.
And these 15 numbers, we are in the process of finalizing the staffing 16 level numbers right now so this is somewhat preliminary, but 17 they are going to be very very close.
18 In the plant manager's organization, if you look at 19 Sequoyah, the 5188 number, if you take out the 32 out of the 20 3212 and out of the 2921 in the plant manager's organization, 21 and the 51 number is 1160, and the FY '89 average is 982, so 22 that's about 180, difference of 180 or so.
23 For Browns Ferry, the 51 number is 1459, and the QN 24
'89 average is 1344--again about 110, so the plant manager's
- p.,
L.
25 organization, that crganization we looked ht, is not that HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
~
1 218 1
effective.
Part of the rsason, and part of the reason-for the q
l 2
decrease is really not as-much a decr^ase as a shift in those i
3 people because one of the things'we did, for instance, in 4
Maintenance, is we talked about annuals and hourlies.
5 We have in the past:and still to some' extent, 6
although we are getting away from it,_ employed hourly trades 7
and labor in the maintenance organization, you_know, and the 8
maintenance organization actually brought them in.
They would 9
go to the Personnel people.
They would get them out of halls 10 and they would--union halls, and they would be assigned to 11 that craft in the maintenance organization.
12 One of the things we are doing is we are getting all l
13 of the hourlies out of the maintenance organization, strictly 14 from the viewpoint of getting a maintenance manager away from 1
15 having to administrate hourlies.
That's a specific process 16 that you bring them in and now you let them go, that we had 17 two organizations on site--the construction organization, and 18 the operation organization, both bringing hourlies in and 19 administratively, that so basically we have gotten-the 20 majority of the hourlies and we are going to.get all of the 21 hourlies out of the maintenance organization into the mods l
,1 22 organization.
When Maintenance needs hourlies, they will go
)
I 23 to mods and say give me five guys.
They will still get their 1
24 craftsman, but they won't have to administrate the call, 25 recall, of the hourlies, so that's part of the reason that a
i HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
219 1
those numbers have changed.
Ii 2
MR. BARTON:
That's strictly the union people when f
3 you go to hourly?
4 MR. BYNUM:
Hourlies are all union, 5
MR. BARTON:
There used to be somebody paid by the 6
hour in Maintenance.
What do you call them?
7 MR. BYNUM:
We are basically--they are paid by the 8
hour, but they are under a different union agreement.
9 MR. BARTON:
Okay; different union agreement.
10 MR. BYNUM:
It is a different union agreement and an 11 annual gets certain benefits.
For instance, they get 12 retirement, and they get certain medical benefits and things
~
13 like that, that are in their contract even though they are 14 paid by the hour, whereas the hourlies don't get those 15 benefits, but they are all paid by the hour.
16 MR. BARTON:
Basically what you call temporary?
17 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
18 MR. BARTON:
I classify them permanent and 19 temporary.
20 MR. BYNUM:
Let me give you a breakdown.
One of the 21 things I want to focus on because when you talk about 22 downsizing or reducing, I guess one of the things that I 23 looked at and the question was asked how do you arrive at what 24 changes you made in the operating organization, site 25 organization?
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
220 1
Basically what we did is from the bottom up, we went 2
out to Sequoyah and we said what does it take to run two 3
units?
We asked the maintenance people.
We asked the 4
operations people, give me your staffing levels to run two 5
units 1989, recognizing there is a peak for the Unit 2 outage 6
on the first of the year.
Went to Browns Fecay, said give me 7
your staffing level to run one unit and maintain Units 1 and 3 8
in a stand-by mode, but pay particular consideration to 9
licensed operators, and how we keep them, how we keep them 10 licensed.
So that was their, their go do.
11 Essentially they came back with their orga.'izational 12 numbers, the site directors review, and I reviewed them and we 13 basically have come up with these preliminary numbers.
14 So rather than looking at what we really reduced, 15 what I would like to look at is what do we really think it is 16 going to take to run those units?
I thint when you go down 17 through the numbers, we have numbers that are, that are 18 comparable with other plants of similar size thst are running, 19 so if you look again at the site, at the plant manager's 20 organization, Sequoyah, you have got a thousand people in that 21 operating organization for two units and I think that is 22 fairly consistent with units that other plants are running 23 when you consider the support, on-site director staff, the 24 fact that you have security and all of those things in the 25 support groups.
Also I think that the 2900 compares very HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
221 1
consistently with what other two-unit plants are running with, IL 2
so I think the staff is certainly there to accomplish the 3
programs and purposes that we have set for them.
4 One of the questions--I answered it before, but I 5
will point out that there are, at Browns Ferry, the average 6
'89 site engineering group, and this is the Division of 7
Nuclear Engineering group, is 300, approximately 300.
At 8
Sequoyah, it is approximately 350, again, recognizing that 9
that is supplemented by about 1900 engineers in the central 10 organization.
11 MR. FOX:
Plus about 2000 architect-engineer people.
12 MR. MICHELSON:
Are those 1900 Knoxville down
~~
13 about--
14 HR. BYNUM:
Twenty-five hundred, that is correct.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
Do you have a breakdown on where it 16 was taken in Knoxville--nuclear, electrical, mechanical?
17 MR. BYNUM:
I don't have that, no.
So I think the 18 site organization, looking at the total and looking at the 19 plant management organization, again rougly a thousand at 20 Sequoyah and roughly 1350 at Browns Ferry are certainly 21 comparable with what other large plants are running with 22 today, so we certainly feel like that we have put an 23 organization in place and are in the process of approving a 24 staffing level that will adequately support, more than 25 adequately support safe operation of the units.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. CARROLL:
You are not counting these matrixed 1
2 people in those numbers?
For example, training is not in 3
those numbers?
Security is not in those numbers?
4 MR. BYNUM:
The 29, the 2921 number you see right 5
here has all of those people.
6 MR. CARROLL:
The 982 number?
7 MR. BYNUM:
The 982 goes with the second chart I 8
showed you.
The plant manager's work chart is 982 for 9
Sequoyah and 134 for Browns Ferry, that second chart.
First 10 chart, that's the 3212 for Sequoyah and the--I'm sorry--the 11 2921 for Sequoyah and the 3379 for Browns Ferry.
12 DR. REMICK:
What is the specific impact on Browns 13 Ferry or Sequoyah training personnel?
14 MR. BYNUM:
Let's see.
I don't know the specific 15 numbers, but the training organization size is basically 16 dependent on how the rest of the organization, the downsizing 17 of it.
In other words, we didn't go in and eliminate 18 programs.
We didn't say we are going to eliminate this kind 19 of training or that kind of training.
20 Basically what we did in training is take a number 21 of people in the other organizations that require training, 22 and adjustment the size, so really the downsizing in Training 23 was not a programmatic issue but it was a result of how many i
24 people the other organizations, how those numbers change.
25 DR. REMICK:
There was a decrease?
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
223 1
MR. BYNUM:
Yes, there was.
l_
2 MR. MICHELSON:
As a result of these economy moves, 3
did you change any schedules?
Wherein you were previously 4
commiting to NRC to do things say in a year, have you now 5
stretched those?
You are meeting all of the previous NRC 6
commitments?
7 MR. BYNUM:
Basically we are maintaining the intent 8
of all the previous commitments.
9 MR. FOX:
We haven't changed the scheA le on a l
10 commitment because of badget.
11 MR. CARROLL:
Do you plan to?
12 MR. FOX:
No.
I thought I made that real clear.
13 MR. CARROLL:
Okay.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
So basically I think we have to 15 assume that somehow you had more people than you really needed 16 and this would have happened anyway.
Even if you were not on 17 an economy kick, you would have reduced this much because of 18 workload?
19 MR. FOX:
I don't like to refer to what the Board 20 and the office managers are doing as an economy kick.
We are 21 looking at--in addition to having good, safe, high quality 22 operation, you have to be competitive.
We looked and compared 23 our staffing to other utilitier We looked at earning, for 24 example, Duke, McGuire, we looked at Peach Bottom and other 7,
25 stations.
We looked at a lot of the other utilities.
We HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
224 1
studied carefully what we felt like we needed to do the job, 2
and we need to start approaching steady states.
Once we 3
finish the engineering and construction and huge engineering 4
effort on the recovery programs, we need a level of commitment 5
commensurate with what is required to do the job, and I guess 6
to answer your question very bluntly, yes, we were 7
overstaffed.
8 HR. BYNUM:
I think a good indication of that, if 9
you look at the numbers, that the basic downsizing was to be 10 completed roughly by the lat of October, but if you look at 11 Browns Ferry case, in fact that doesn't happen at all.
By far 12 the majority of the maybe 500 or so, 450 of the Browns Ferry 13 don't--have until after October and they are in the timeframe 14 between October and April of '89 because of the workload, so 15 we didn't just go in and say you know, we are going te take 16 this many off Erowns Ferry, we can still make the schedule.
17 And we didn't say this at all.
We said based cn the schedule, i
18 when can we get down to these numbers that are indicative of i
19 you know, a single unit running and two units in essentially 20 stand-by condition.
21 MR. MICHELSON:
Another thing that one puzzles about 22 the chart, and that is the significant increase in, learly a 23 hundred percent increase in contractor work at Watts Bar.
24 Is that because Engineering didn't have the talents 25 that were needed and they had to be brought in from the HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
225 1
outside to do that work, or you are cutting Engineering on the L
2 one hand, and building up Engineering on the other hand?
And 3
I was trying to figure out why one hand can't feed the other.
4 MR. BYNUM:
I think that is basically the answer.
5 The specific, it is the specific, it is the specific 6
engineering.
7 MR. FOX:
7914, environmental qualification, the 8
whole litany of technical issues that we dispositioned at 9
Sequoyah we have to do at Watts Bar, and it requires a special 10 outside talent.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
It wasn't available from the 12 reduction at Knoxville?
l 13 MR. CARROLL:
Or is it an independent verification 14 issue?
15 MR. FOX:
It is not, it is primarily not aimed at 16 independent verification.
These are one-time type skill 17 needs, and we did not have them in detail.
18 As I mentioned to you earlier, we were doing this 19 very small fraction of the scheduled engineering each week at 20 Watts Bar a year ago and have two years to go with a very 21 large number, like 900 people.
That is contractor plus TVA 22 peonie.
We weren't getting there, so we had to go and hire 23 what I consider to be the cream of the crop in the AE industry 24 to come in and do a one-time engineerint, verification, 25 recertification package, modification preparation packages for HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
l 226 1
whatever needed to be done to get the plant in compliance with j
2 its license.
1 3
MR. MICHELSON:
Took a special kind of talent that 4
assumably wasn't available.
5 MR. BYNUM:
The other thing, it is not a question of 6
TVA supervising a whole bunch of contract engineers.
They 7
have the whole job.
So it is noc a case of where we get threc 8
electricals over here, we can replace three contract 9
electrical engineers.
10 What we did is we went out and we bid the EQ job and 11 that's the management supervision, the document preparation, 12 the whole job, so it is not like we could take three 13 electrical engineers that are coming out of this group, and 14 then displace three EQ engineers that the contractor has that 15 are doing the EQ job because it is a specific job that we 16 contracted for and not just a bunch of electrical engineers.
17 MR. FOX:
Based on unique skills that are required 18 for the engineering verification.
19 MR. BYNUM:
And the supervision.
20 MR. MICHELSON:
There is some of both.
I didn't 21 know Watts Bar, that it was a single contract kind of a job.
22 MR. BYNUM:
A lot of it is.
23 MR. FOX:
There are four contracts.
There is one 24 with Sergeant Lundy.
They did the design baseline program, 25 and another arm of Sergeant Lundy is doing the two-system FERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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~
4 227 1
vertical slice I mentioned.
We have Bechtel doing the 2
hangars, analysis and upgrade, scope of work.
And we have--
3 MR. CARROLL:
Next year they will do the snubber 4
reduction part, hangar reduction program for you, too.
5 MR. FOX:
You are probably right.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
This particular work was escalating.
7 I gather that's why the increase in number of people.
8 MR. FOX:
Those increases happened in the middle 9
year.
They were moving up toward a large engineering 10 verification, and those increases occurred before we started 11 the RIF.
We have and don't plan to continue the increase.
12 Choosing of that data 401 is a little misleading.
13 MR. BYNUM:
Any other questions?
14 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Your present scheduling for 15 Sequoyah 1 is September?
16 MR. BYNUM:
That is for heat-up.
17 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Yes, sir, and Browns Ferry 2, 18 around the first of the year?
19 MR. BYNUM:
That is correct.
20 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
And what about Watts Bar?
1 21 MR. BYNUM:
I don't--Charlie, I'm not sure.
What is 1
22 the schedule for, what is the current projected schedule for 23 Watts Bar 17 24 MR. FOX:
Fuel load is 12-90, and criticality is 25 10-91.
That's based on what the Power Needs Committee tells HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
228 1
us, and that's the part of the schedule--
t 2
CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
That is Unit 1?
t 3
MR. FOX:
I thought you said Unit 1.
There is no 4
senedule for Unit 2.
Excuse me.
I thought you were asking b
about Unit 1.
6 MR. CARROLL:
Looking at this non-site line, 3401 7
and 3186, were the bulk of those people on this chart?
8 MR. BYNUM:
Which one is that?
9 MR. FOX:
You have to back up a slide.
This would 10 be the nuclear services organization in Chattanooga.
This 11 would be the reactor safety and licensing people in 12 Chattanooga.
It would be the engineering people in Knoxville.
13 MR. CARROLL:
It is this chart here?
14 MR. FOX:
That's the old organization.
15 MR. CARROLL:
I'm sorry.
16 MR. FOX:
Got those centralized activities that are 17 located either in Chattanooga or in Knoxville.
It would be, 18 the West Tower also could be some of the construction people 19 who are located in Knoxville centralized also.
It is 20 primarily DNE Knoxville.
21 MR. GRIDLEY:
Wait a minute.
Jay, go to the last 22 organization chart in the morning or in the first 23 presentation.
Now what he is going to tell you is where those 24 numbers are.
25 HR. FOX:
Let's get the right chart up here.
Dick--
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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the bulk of the non-site people are here and in' nuclear 2
support and here in nuclear engineerir,.
Also there is a 3
fairly large central cadre of QA people as well.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
I think you said a little earlier 5
that engineering took about a 20 percent reduction.
Since the 6
total reduction here is only 6.3, that must have meant 7
that--it is a little hard to come out with those numbers.
8 MR. FOX:
Well, you also need to recognize that they 9
are dedicated engineers.
Joe Bynum mentioned 300 engineers at 10 Browns Ferry, 350 at Sequoyah.
So what this is talking about 11 is merely those central office engineering people, the central 12 office, nuclear support people, central office licensing 13 people, central office QA people.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
Just puzzling with your numbers; you 15 said 1900 in Knoxville.
16 MR. BYNUM:
I
.nk that 1900, now that I go back, I 17 think I made an incorrect statement.
I think the 1900 i
18 includes the 300 and the 350.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
Okay.
It includes the and 300.
20 That would make a little more sense.
21 HR. FOX:
Total population in DNE Knoxville is a 22 little over 2500.
DNE total is 500.
There were about 1700 23 people in Knoxville.
24 MR. MICHELSON:
There were before you mean the 25 reduction?
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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MR. FOX:
Before the reduction, yes.
2 MR. CARROLL:
I guess it would be useful for me if 3
you would do what you started to do on this chart.
Tell me 4
what each of these is and then what has happened.
5 MR. FOX:
I will give you that chart.
I will 6
provide that to ACRS.
We have it with us, bulletized 7
descriptions.
8 What we we are attempting to do in that chart is 9
show you the functions that were on the previous organization 10 chart, the old organization of 22 direct reports, and show you 11 where those functions were on the new organization chart.
12 MR. CARROLL:
i And also C ve me some idea of whtt the 13 before and after head count is for the ottanizations.
14 MR. FOX:
For each of those?
15 MR. CARROLL:
Yes.
16 MR. FOX:
Okay.
17 MR. CARROLL:
I ' ht curious.
18 MR. MICHELSON:
These numbers are all fairly readily 19 available?
It is not a big problem for you, is it?
Could you 20 give us the engineering organization in Knoxville then?
21 Now do you know like the branch or because those are 22 ctill big branches, hundreds of people i'.t the branch, l
23 electrical, so could you give us a heea count before and after j
24 on the engineering support?
25 MR. FOX:
We can give you a general head count, yes.
i HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
231 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes.
Just 500 before and now it is 2
300.
3 MR. FOX:
Okay.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
So forth.
5 MR. FOX:
We will give you the demographics of the 6
cuts.
Do you want it just in Engineering?
7 MR. MICHELSON:
Nuclear Engineering.
8 MR. FOX:
Okay.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Which is the office of 1900 people 10 more or less.
11 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Any other questions?
Thank you, 12 Mr. Fox.
13 MR. FOX:
Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
I think at this time we will take &
15 break.
Why don't we take a 15-minute break?
16 (A brief recess was taken.)
17 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
We will resume the meeting, and 18 staff has some comments.
1 19 MR. GOODWIN:
I am still Ed Goodwin with the Office 20 of Special Plants.
We have been asked to make some closing 21 comments on TVA's presentation, and the impact of TVA's l
22 reorganization and reduction in force.
23 A couple of housekeeping matters--I am informed by 24 TVA that as TVA understands it, they are unable to release to r_,
1 25 us for further release to the ACRS the INPO reports that were HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION -- (202) 628-4888
232 1
done in the past.
2 TVA will supply to us and we will supply to the 3
Committee, a list of those reports that were done on the 4
subject matters of each.
5 Second--
6 HR. MICHELSON:
Does that mean, that means we don't 7
see them?
Does that mean the staff has never looked at them, 8
either?
9 MR. GRIDLEY:
If I cata add a little bit, we have 10 gotten INPO to agree the staff can read, come and read the 11 reports.
And they have done that, the current OSP project 12 staff, but we cannot, INPO will not allow us to release the 13 reports.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
That is interesting.
Is that true i
15 of other kinds of INPO reports, or just these particular 16 kinds?
17 HR. GRIDLEY:
I can't speak for all reports done by i
18 INPO, but these evaluation reports.
19 HR. MICHELSON:
Protocol in the past used to be INPO 20 wouldn't release them, that the individual utility has to do 1
21 the releasing, but I never asked them for this particular 22 report, but that's always the answer INPO gives you, that the 23 utility will give it to you, because you know, we are just 24 serving the utility and so forth.
It is up to the utility to 25 decide whether they want to release it and they are the ones HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
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that do the releasing.
And so this is the other side of the b
2 same story.
3 MR. GRIDLEY:
We are getting--
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Same story from both directions, and 5
it is not clear to me if, why INPO won't release them it' TVA 6
agreed to release them.
7 MR. CARROLL:
I think the situation is this, that 8
INPO feels that the nature of these reports is such that they 9
certainly don't want to release them to outside organizations, 10 and their advice to their utility clients is that they shculd 11 not, either.
12 As I understand the situation, the NRC has always
~~
13 Deen able to look at the report, make notes if they want, but 14 not actually be formally given the report.
15 MR. MICHELSON:
That's essentially what I have been 16 told in the past.
It is up to the utility if they want to 17 release the report.
Maybe INPO says you are not to, but the 18 utility decides, so in this case, TVA has decided not to 19 release it then?
20 MR. CARROLL:
I think it is further than that.
I 21 think INPO strongly recommends that those reports not be 22 released outside of the utility.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
The decision is with the utility.
24 MR. BYNUM:
I can speak for INPO evaluations at I
~
25 another utility, and it is really like Mr. Carroll said.
INPO HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
234 1
strongly recommends--in fact in the situation at the last 2
utility I worked for, INPO said before you do release it, you 3
know, we want to know about it, but we strongly recommer.d that 4
you not release it.
In other words, INPO said we do not want 5
you to release it.
6 MR. MICHELSON:
That doesn't mean--they didn't tell 7
you you couldn't release it.
It is up to you, yet.
You are, 8
the utility decides whether--
9 MR. BYNUM:
Legally it is your document.
They are 10 concerned about the--
11 MR. MICHELSON:
I am trying to decide whether TVA 12 have decided not to release it, maybe on the good advice or 13 bad advice of INPO, whatever, but TVA decided not to release 14 it.
That's really the case.
15 MR. CARROLL:
I think I raised this issue and I 16 wasn't looking for the reports.
I was simply asking when did 17 they do evaluations of plant and corporate, and what 18 assistance visits had taken place.
19 MR. GOODWIN:
We will provide you a chronology.
20 MR. CARROLL:
I don't necessarily want to see the 21 reports.
22 MR. MICHELSON:
The real question we raised, though, 23 in the meeting this morning was whether or not the staff had 24 ever even looked at them.
25 MR. GOODWIN:
The staff has examined them.
I have HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(2021628-4888
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not personally.
I am given to understand from discussions I
[
2 had later this morning, that our human factors people looked 3
at them in preparing the corporate SER which was issued about 4
a year ago, which looked at the general corporate reaction, 5
TVA corporate reaction to their previous problems.
6 As part of the Memorandum of Understanding between 7
the EDO and INPO, the the INPO reports were not directly 8
referenced or explicitly discussed in our evaluation.
9 MR. MICHELSON:
Now the commenters come in and ask 10 you questions that you really already knew the answersto but 11 just didn't put in your report?
12 MR. GOODWIN:
I gather that is correct.
13 MR. MICHELSON:
It does look a little bit strange 14 for a government agency to operate that way.
Operating in the 15 sunshine, this doesn't quite impress me as being operations of 16 sunshine.
i 17 MR, GOODWIN:
I am not in a position where I can 18 help you.
19 MR. CARROLL:
Let's put it in perspective, Carl.
20 INPO's emphasis is on helping utilities achieve excellence in 21 operation.
The NRC's emphasis is on adequate performance to i
22 protect the public health and safety.
Those are two very 23 different things.
fe 4 MR. MICHELSON:
May or may not be.
i t
25 HR. CARROLL:
Oh, they are.
No doubt about it.
i i
4 HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(2k2)628-4888
236 i
1 HR. MICHELSON:
There is no relationship one to the 2
other?
3 MR CARROLL:
Cartainly.
4 HR. MICHELSOPt I don't want to get into a debate 5
with another member.
That is inappropriate.
I do think, 6
though, tht. it is quite an interesting revelation that TVA 7
doesn't wish to release these, and clearly they have the right 8
to release it.
9 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
I am not so sure you won't find 10 that pretty much true of all the utilities.
11 MR. MICHELSON:
All the utilities are private 12 except, nearly all of them are private except TVA.
13 MK. BARTON:
It defeats the purpose of INPO if you 14 start publishing these things.
I really think it does.
15 MR. CARROLL:
At least speaking for myself, I would 16 like to see the memo, Memorandum of Understanding between EDO 17 and INPO just so I understand what has been agreed to.
I 18 don't know if the others want to see it.
19 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Yes.
I would like to.
20 MR. GOODWIN:
I look at the rest of the request we 21 received this morning from you folks, and I note that they are t
22 basically pieces of paper to be delivered, and I wonder of the 23 value of another subcommittee meeting.
The delivery of paper 24 can be, can take place on a schedule that would have been 25 consistent with that meeting, but I wonder if there is enough HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
237 1
to really have a subcommittee meeting?
p-,
t_
2 I might suggest any questions that arise out of your 3
review of t'a various pieces of paper you have asked for--
4 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Speaking of the TVA reorganization 5
efforts or--
6 MR. GOODWIN:
No.
You asked f or the staf f 's me:nual 7
section on root cause analysis, the briefing on problem 8
plants, some information about SIMs, assessment of utility 9
resource, performance indicators that NRR, not us, would be 10 supplying this documentation, but it appears to me that I, 11 though, would not actively participate in any of that, that I 12 question whether you will need another subcommittee meeting or
~ ^
13 you would just want to review the paper, and ask any grestisns 14 you wanted at the Full Committee meeting.
I just suggest 15 that.
16 Now moving to the staff's analysis of the 17 reorganization and the subsequent reduction in force at TVA, 18 first, these were, these were separate efforts undertaken 19 sequentially.
The staff did review and issue a safety l
20 evaluation report on the reorganization.
In summary, we.had 21 no objection.
22 The decrease in the number of people reporting 23 directly to the senior vice president, nuclear, was a negative i
1 24 comment we had originally had about their prior organization.
L.
25 The reorganization did not in any significant way affect the HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
238 1
numbers, types, or qualities of people or managers, or their 2
functions.
Our SER was generally favorable.
We had no 3
objections.
4 It struck us as very much what the utility managed, 5
that their organizational structure within broad limits is 6
their responsibility.
7 The reduction in force, we have had no further, 8
littla further information than you gentlemen received today.
9 We have persuaded ourselves that the reductions TVA has 10 planned do not in any significant way impact on TVA's ability 11 to maintain and operate the operating plant, Sequoyah 2, or to 12 operate and maintain plants that would follow on.
We note 13 that they have stretched out their schedule at Browns Ferry 1 14 and 3 and at Watts Bar, and therefore they can accommodate 15 some significant reduction just by stretching.
16 We have made it clear to them that we would not 17 accept stretchout or the transfer of items that had been 18 promised or ought to be promised as required for restart to 19 some later date just because they had reduced forces, nor 20 would we accept stretchout of post-restart items on' operating 31 p?. ants because they had reduced, had had a reduction in force.
22 If they wished stretch schedules, that's entirely their 23 decision.
We will accommodate it.
We are looking for a set 24 of revised schedules for these plants which I believe is 25 promised for next acnth?
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
239 1
MR. FOX:
I believe that is correct.
{_
2 MR. GOODWIN:
We have not, we are waiting for the 3
RIF process to sort of work out, that the people who got RIF 4
notices are not necessarily the people who will be going out 5
the door at TVA.
When the people that will be going out the 6
door are better established, we expect to be briefed to find 7
out the impact in terms of for real managers, for real 8
workers, impact on nuclear support activities.
9 They clearly can reduce a great deal by stretching 10 the schedule out.
We are concerned that they do not in some 11 area or areas reduce below that minimum critical mass'of 12 skill.
We will be looking at that, but the reduction could be 13 rather extensive in any given area, and still they could 14 satisfy us.
15 You asked them about the, asked TVA about the 16 results of t..
reduction in force on people or employee 17 concerns.
We will note that we had expected a dramatic 18 increase as a result of the RIF.
We have not seen it.
We 19 have seen a few, none of which that I have personally seen or 20 am aware are, had anything to do with nuclear safety.
They 21 are just things that we would look at and say this is not 22 within our purview.
23 Along that lines, there was a rather major TVA 24 interne.1 investigation and later criminal work because of some 25 travel discrepancies.
We are checking, we checked the people HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
l 840 1
who were involved in that against the lists of people we had 2
who had prior, had made prior allegations of harassment or 3
raised safety concern to assure that there wasn't a tone of 1
4 retaliation.
l 5
We didn't see any.
We would do the same thing 6
broadly within the, within the RIF area.
7 The last area I wanted to address was this question 8
that one of you raised about coordination of work.
When you 9
are doing modifications and/or maintenance, how do you make 10 sure that the system isn't degraded by the, during the 11 modification process?
The safety system, for example?
This 12 was a concern shortly after Sequoyah restarted in that 13 Sequoyah had several tech spec violations that were a 14 consequence of inadequately taking both trains out of service 15 simultareously while doing maintenance or modifications or 16 surveillance testing.
17 It appeared to us at that time that the senior 18 reactor operator, the shift supervisor, were inundated with 19 work requests, and had great difficulty in keeping track of i
20 them, and that these errors and these violations had occurred 21 of that.
22 TVA at our rather strong suggestion instituted a 23 work control center that is staffed by a combine *. ion of senior 24 license people and engineers that issues authorizations to do 25 work, tag out, and addresses this area.
It is well staffed.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
241 1
I was down there last week on a separate unrelated inspection 2
and was favorably impressed by how it was working.
They 3
responded very well to that deficiency.
It was a deficiency 4
when they first started up.
5 One last item is that the question of whether the 6
Plant Operations Review Committee is responsible for 7
independent assesr.aent of the process of modification.
8 As the tech specs required, modified tech spec, the 9
PORC is basically responsible for the approval of decisions 10 which involve change in tech specs, change in license 11 conditions, change in the FSAR that either does or does not 12 require an amendment.
They are an independent review group of 13 those things that basically involve TVA's regulatory policy.
14 We do not consider them as an independent j
15 engineering assessment group.
ISEG exists for that.
The site 16 director has engineering staffs for that.
There is no 17 requirement in regulation that PORC examine independently the 18 engineering.
The regulatory requirement is that they examine j
19 independently the impact en regulatory requirements, and I 20 just thought that point ought to be clarified.
21 I have r.o further comments that I wish to make.
22 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Questions?
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Clarification on the--I believe you 24 said that we could read the INPO report?
25 MR. GOODWIN:
No, I d'i not say that we can read the HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
j 242 1
1 INPO report.
2 MR. MICHELSON:
You mean the ACRS cannot read the 3
INPO report?
4 MR. GOODWIN:
I cannot not supply it to you.
5 MR. MICHELSON:
Even if we go wherever you go to 6
read it?
7 MR. GOODWIN:
I would have to defer to people 8
considerably senior than I before I would state what your 9
rights are in that area.
I do not know.
10 MR. MICHELSON:
I think we need a reading on that, 11 Mr. Chairman, as to what we can read and not read.
12 MR. GOODWIN:
I cannot supply it to you is what I 13 know.
14 MR. MICHELSON:
Really that, that isn't the 15 question.
Could we read it if we go wherever you would go to 16 read it or whatever?
17 MR. CARROLL:
Maybe the Memo of Understanding might 13 clarify that.
19 MR. MICHELSON:
For whose eyes are the INPO reports, 20 in other words?
21 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
I think we can get a review of the 22 Memo of Understanding and a legal opinion.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
Yes; definitely.
24 MR. CARROLL:
I guess we talked a little bit this 25 afternoon about the PRA people.
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
l l
l l
243 1
What is your perspective on all of that?
What does 2
that tell you?
3 MR. GOODWIN:
I am going to fence with that 4
question.
We have reviewed both the PRA per se and will be 5
factoring our review of that into our review of Browns Ferry 6
prior to restart.
7 We have also reviewed the interaction between the 8
PRA staff at TVA and TVA's general line management.
That's a 9
matter of enforcement.
That is not--that I am not free to 10 talk about in a public session, nor do I personally know a 11 great deal that I would be, feel authoritative in discussing 12 in private session.
I know a report has been written on the 13 subject.
I have not read it.
14 MR. CARROLL:
Fair enough.
15 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Other questions?
If not, thank you 16 very much.
17 HR. GOODWIN:
Thank you, sir.
18 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Let me ask the subcommittee 19 regarding the report to the Full Committee on the TVA 20 organization changes.
I personally don't see any need to do 21 any other than make a subcommittee report to the Full 22 Committee.
23 Does anyone else feel differently?
24 MR. CARROLL:
What does make a subcommittee report I>-
25 to the Full Committee mean?
HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
244 1
CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
That is basically a report of what 4
2 went on here, but not make any additional recommendations l
3 regarding--
4 DR. REMICK:
It would not be a formal presentation 5
by the staff and TVA.
It would be the Subcommittee chairman 6
would summarize the meeting, and the subcommittee members 7
would have an opportunity to add to-that report.
8 MR. CARROLL:
And that would be the basis that the 9
Full Committee would use to write the letter?
l 10 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
We wouldn't be proposing a 3etter i
11 unless the subcommittee or the Committee--
12 MR. CARROLL:
Don't we owe--
13 MR. MICHELSON:
We have to prepare something for the 14 Chairman.
He asked us to independently review.
15 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Now that was a different subject.
16 That was a--I am talking about the reorganization.
17 MR. MICHELSON:
This alona: oh, I thought you were 18 talking lessons learned, too.
19 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
No, no.
20 DR. REMICK:
I agree with Charlie.
I don't see a 21 reason for other than the subcommittee report on the 22 reorganization.
23 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Everybody agree to that?
Okay.
24 Now as far as the lessons learned concern, how does the 25 subcommittee propose to proceed on that?
We have to prepare a HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
i 245 1
reply and we tentatively talked about the August 5th meeting l
2 of the subcommittee, which is to undertake that review and to l
3 prepare a recommendation and report to the Full Committee.
4 MR. MICHELSON:
Are you asking do we need the August 5
Sth date?
6 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Yes.
7 MR. MICHELSON:
For that purpose?
I don't think I 8
would need it.
I mean I believe I have all I need to give you 9
my comments.
10 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
One approach would be to get the 11 documentation which we requested, and for the subcommittee and i
12 Mr. Barton to give us comments and issues and recommendations
~
13 that they would like to include in a letter, and we can take 14 it from there and propose something to the Full Committee.
15 Now should we have a summary type presentation at 16 the Full Committee on the lessons learned similar to what we 17 had this morning?
18 MR. MICHELSON:
I guess we would have to give them 19 something.
Either you have to give it to them or I'm sure the 20 members want to hear more than--
21 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
I think it would be more effective 22 with the staff doing that.
23 MR. MICHELSON:
I think staff did c real good job.
24 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Why don't we do that?
I would just
~
25 request the subcommittee to give me their comments then for HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
246 i
i recommendations and things to be included in the letter.
2 MR. CARROLL:
Do you think, Charlie, that you would 3
be able to, if we could get this material that has come into 4
us soon, and get you a first round of comments, do you think 5
you could turn a draft letter around and give us a crack at 6
that before the. Full Committee meeting?
7 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Depends how fast you get those 8
comments to me.
9 MR. CARROLL:
I was thinking maybe we could set a 10 schedule of some sort.
11 MR. BARTON:
When is the full meeting?
12 MR. GOODWIN:
Phen is the full meeting?
13 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
No.
That was the subcommittee 14 meeting.
The Full Committee, let's see.
15 HR. HOUSTON:
It is the next week.
16 HR. CARROLL:
August 11 through 13th.
i 17 MR. MICHELSON:
Generally we don't get draft letters 18 out and turn them around in subcommittee on that short a 19 notice, keeping in mind that if we had nothing else to do we 20 could do it, but most of us are going to quite a few other 21 things, and it kind of consumes the time.
22 MR. BARTON:
The 5th is another subcommittee 23 meeting?
j 24 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
No.
We would propose not to have a
25 that meeting.
In lieu of that, we want to recommend the HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
247 i
i subcommittee present comments to Dean and then he could p,
i 2
distribute these, the recommendations.
i 3
MR. MICHELSON:
What we do is give you j
4 recommendations for points to be made in the letter and then 5
you will put the draft together.
6 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
That is correct.
7 MR. BARTON:
You don't want anything on 8
reorganization?
9 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
No.
Well, unless you want to make 10 some comments on it.
11 HR. MICHELSON:
Unless there is something related to 12 lessons learned.
'~
13 CHAIRMAN WYLIE:
Okay.
Anything further?
If not, I i
14 would like to thank the staff for their very thorough and 15 effective presentation, both on lessons learned and the 16 comments this afternoon, and TVA for their participation and 17 presentation, and I think it has been very helpful.
18 With that, I will adjourn the meeting.
19 (Whereupon, at 4:04 p,m.,
the meeting was 20 adjourned.)
21 22 23 24 I
~
25 HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION --(202)628-4888
i 1
CERTIFICATE 2
3 This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the 4
United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
5 Name:
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, TVA Organizational Issues Subcommittee 7
Docket Numbert 8
Place:
Washington, D.C.
j 9
Date:
July 22, 1988 10 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original l
11 transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear 12 Regulatory Commission taken stenographically by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction.
13 14 of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a 15 true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
16
/S/ { Mf cn,
-w f
~
17 (Signature typed):
Catherine S.
Boyd 18 Official Reporter 19 Heritage Reporting Corporation 20 21 22 23 24 9
25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
=xuw &-
TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY 4
i 1
i l
PRESENTATION TO l
THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS I
i (ACRS)
JULY 22,1988 i
l i
l
am 4
i i
i AGENDA NUCLEAR POWER ORGANIZATION I
1 l
- OBJECTIVES
- ORGANIZATIONAL CHANGES
- STAFF REDUCTIONS AND EFFECT ON NUCLEAR l
PROJECTS i
j
- NUCLEAR SAFETY l
- PROGRAMS AND COMMITMENTS i
-SEQUOYAH ORGANIZATION AND OPERATION i
l l
m%
i NUCLEAR OBJECTIVES i
TVA NUCLEAR POWER OBJECTIVES
~
TO ENSURE SAFE PLANT OPERATION l
1.
ESTABLISH A STABLE ORGANIZATION 2.
PUT A STRONG MANAGEMENT TEAM IN PLACE 3.
ESTABLISH PROCEDURALIZED AND DISCIPLINED 1
WAY OF DOING BUSINESS i
l l
4.
ENSURE THE TECHNICAL INTEGRITY.OF THE PLANTS j
i 5.
REESTABLISH TRUST AND CONFIDENCE IN MANAGEMENT 4
ORGANIZATION OF THE TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY PRIOR TO JULY 1,1S88 l
Board O'I!ce of the Of Inspector General Norman Zigrossi D.ireetors i
General Manager W. R. Willis Assistant General Office of the General Manager (Finance)
Counsel Jirn Dura!I Edward Christenberry I
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I Office of Employco Office of Policy, Office of Governmental Relations Office of Planning & Budget
& Public Affairs Charles Doty Corporate Service John Stewart Craven Crowell l,
(Acting)
John W. Thompson I
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Office of Office of Natural Office of Nuclear Power Office of Power Hesources and Agricultural &
Steven White Robert Steffy Economic Development Chemical Development Manager Manager Bl!!y Bond, Manager John Shields, Manager i
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4 ORGANIZATION OF THE TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY (Effective July 1,1988)
BOARD OF DIRECTORS MARVIN RUNYON, C.H. DEAN, JR.,
JOHN D. WATERS INSPECTOR VICE PRESIDENT GENERAL GENERAL COUNSEL NORMAtl A.ZlGROSSI CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD EDWARD S. CHRISTENBURY MARVIN RUNYON i
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l VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT GOVERNMENTAL VICE PRESIDENT j
HUMAN RESOURCES AND PUBLIC CHIEF FINANCIAL 1
CHARLES C. DOTY AFFAIRS OFFICER (ACTING)
CRAVEN CROWELL JAMES R. DURALL l
EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT l
AND l
CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER WILLIAM F. WILLIS i
j VICE PRES! DENT SERVICES 3
j JOHN W. DIOMPSON j
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SENIOR SENIOR SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT 5' ICE PRESIDENT
{
NUCLEAR POWER POWER RESOURCE STEVEN A. WHITE ROBERT C. STEFFY,JR.
DEVELOPMENT 4
JOHN T. SHIELDS 1
OFFICE OF NUCLEAR uana9-POWER Nuciear eowe, BEFORE JULY 1,1988 REORGANIZATION
- puty Maaao-
- puty uanaoar of of Nuclear Power Nuclear Power Assistant Assistant To Manager Manager ONP ONP Manager Director Nuclear Nuclear Business Personnel Operations Chairman Direc:or Nuclear Safety Nuclear Manager's Revi3w Board Review Group 4
a Manager Manager Nuclear Employee Concern Maintenance Program l
Manager Manager Nuclear Power Employee Insarmation Concern Task Staff Group i
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Director Director Director Site Site Site Site Director Nuclear Director Director Nuclear Nuclear Director Director Director Director Nuclear Quality Nuclear Nuclear Licensing &
Engineering Sequoyah Be!!efonte Watts Bar Browns Ferry Construction Assurance Services Training Regulatear Affairs
NUCLEAR POWER GROUP ORGANIZATION CHART SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT NUCLEAR POWER GROUP l
NUCLEAR SAFETY STAFF REVIEW BOARD HUMAN WBPT RESOURCES (PROGRAM TEAM)
MANAGER I
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I VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT 8 NUCLEAR POWER NUCLEAR NUCLEAR NUCLEAR NUCLEAR NUCLEAR OUALITN NUCLEAR PRODUCTION CONSTRUCTION SUPPORT BUSINESS ENGINEERING ASSURANCE TECHNICAL OPERATIONS DIRECTOR i
- Site Management
. Construction
. Maintenance 4
For Sequoyah &
Management For
. Nuclear i
Browns Ferry Watts Bar &
Licensing &
j Bellefonte Regulatory Affairs
. Construction
. Nuclear Managers Moddcations For Review Group Browns Ferry &
Sequoyah i
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TVA NUCLEAR POWER LAYOFFS i
i TVA STAFF EMPLOYEES CONTRACTORS TOTAL FY 89 FY 89 TOTAL 5/1/88 AVERAGE CHANGE 4/1/88 AVERAGE CHANGE %
CHANGE l
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SEQUOYAH 3212 2921
-9.1 783 460
-41.3 16.9 i
BROWNS FERRY 3897 3379
-13.3 1033 550
-46.8 19.3 l
WATTS i
BAR 2583 2175
-15.8 374 743
+98.6
+13.8 t
l BELLEFONTE 1287 200 84.5 7
0
-100.0 84.5 NON-SITE 3401 3186
-6.3 972 200
-79.4 28.6 1
I 4
TOTAL 14,380 11,861
-17.5 3169 1953
-38.4 20.4
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- l TVA NUCLEAR POWER i
HEADCOUNT REDUCTION PROJECTION i
BY EMPLOYEE SCHEDULE PROJECTED l
PROJECTED FY 89 l
4/30/88 10/1/88 AVERAGE REDUCTION l
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ANNUAL SALARY POLICY 9,194 8,389 8,322
- 872 l
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ANNUAL TRADES & LABOR _1,870 1,787
_ 1,632
- 238 i
TOTAL WITHOUT 11,064 10,176 9,954
-1.110 HOURLY TRADES & LAB R i
l HOURLY TRADES & LABOR 3,316 1,696 1,907
-1,409 I
GRAND TOTAL 14,380 11,872 11,861
-2,519
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EFFECT ON NUCLEAR PROJECTS l-f PLANT STATUS 1
SEQUOYAH UNIT 1 NO CHANGE, STEADY-STATE PROGRESS TOWARD RESTART l
UNIT 2 NO CHANGE, CURRENTLY OPERATING 1
l BROWNS FERRY UNITS 1 & 3 MAINTAIN IN CURRENT l
STATUS, RESTART SCHEDULE I
NOT ESTABLISHED UNIT 2 NO CHANGE, STEADY-STATE PROGRESS TOWARD RESTART i
WATTS BAR UNITS 1 & 2 WORK SLOWED AND FOCUSED i
ON UNIT 1 i
BELLEFONTE UNITS 1 & 2 BOTH UNITS ARE NOW IN A DEFERRED STATUS i
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NUCLEAR SAFETY OVERSIGHT l
i WALKING SPACES l
MANAGEMENT INVOLVEMENT I
NUCLEAR SAFETY REVIEW BOARD OPERATIONAL READINESS REVIEWS NUCLEAR MANAGERS REVIEW GROUP r
PLANT OPERATIONS REVIEW COMMITTEE SITE REPRESENTATIVES EMPLOYEE CONCERN PROGRAM INDEPENDENT SAFETY ENGINEERING GROUP l
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NUCLEAR POWER GROUP NUCLEAR SAFETY REVIEW BOARD ORGANIZATION STRUCTURE CHART Senior Vice President Nuclear Power Group i
i Nuclear Safety Review Board i
Manager 4
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Tech Secretary Tech Secretary Tech Secretary Admin. Secretary i
NSRB NSRB NSRB NSRB Sequoyah Watts Bar Browns Ferry (Corporate) 1
- No changes in staffing level 4
4 4
)
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LONG-TERM PROGRAM AND COMMITMENTS i
- LONG -TERM COMMITMENTS DELINEATED IN THE l
CORPORATE NUCLEAR PERFORMANCE PLAN WILL NOT BE ABROGATED
- PLANT-SPECIFIC IMPLEMENTATION SCHEDULES ARE BEING PROVIDED WITH EACH PLANT-SPECIFIC NUCLEAR l
PERFORMANCE PLAN j
s l
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NUCLEAL. G ER GROUP NUCLEAR P(MER PRODUCTION BFN/ SON PLANT MANAGER PLANT MANAGER I
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l WAINTENANCE OPERATIONS RADIOtOGICAL PLANT WORKCONTROL/
TEONICAL O(MISTRY RESTART CONTROL SUPPORT OUTAGE SUPPORi StFERINTDOENT SUPERINTENDENT SUPERINTDOENT SUPERINTENDENT SUPERINTEM)ENT SUPERINTDOENT SUPERINTDOENT R
- BRO 4NS FERRY ONL v s
c e
m<
-m
I NUCLEAR P(MER GROUP NUCLEAR PONER PRODUCTION BFN/ SON SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT P4X1 EAR PONER GROUP VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT &
VICE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT P4) CLEAR POER NUCLEAR OUALITY NUCLEAR TECHNICAL NUCLEAR NUCLEAR PRODUCTION ASSURANCE DIRECTOR ENGINEERING (A)NSTRUCTION 1
I CHAIRMAN SITE
- BRom4S rERRY OJLY RESTART TASK TORCE MANAGEhENT TEAM DIRECTOR RESTART DIRECTOR SITE SUPPORT MATERIALS A.O SITE PROGRAMS PROJECT EONTROLS PLANT SITE Si!E SITE SITE PROCUREMENT
& FINANCIAL OUALITY MANAGER MANAGER MANAGER SERVICE 0 MANAGER MANAGER
' ASSURANCE LICENSING ENGIPEERING CONSTRUCTION e
,