ML20136B376

Transcript of NRC 790702 Public Meeting in Washington,Dc to Discuss NRC Order Re Present Shutdown Condition of TMI-1 & Develop Procedures for Further Action.Pp 1-36

ML20136B376
Person / Time
Site:	Crane
Issue date:	07/02/1979
From:	Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:
References
REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7909050327
Download: ML20136B376 (37)

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Washington, D.C.

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- u Mondav, Julv. 2, 1979

,, a ew t-The Commission met, pur.raant to notice, at 2:35 ic

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-c-The Ccmmission meets this afternoon, as innouncad last week, to discuss an order on the status of Three Mile 4

Island, Unit 1.

s This meetina. is on rather short notice.

However, the Comraission totad to hcid it last week, so we do not need to repea: that vote in ordar to conform with the Sunshine u.

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The matter in hand is a draft order that would deal with Three P.ils Island, Unit 1, to mandate its present shutdown condition, to provide that there will be a further 1*a order o f the Cc= mission enunciating in detail the basis for its concerns and proceduras to govern further proceedings

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_o I'd li?.e to comment by way of background that in this series of orders that were issued to other operating units using the BW reactor design, after the accident at Three Mile, Unit 2, that Unit 1, which had been e.

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Further, as is auite obvious, the Ccmmission has a

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Here there is the rather spe:ial circumstance i

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that the operating organication is in fact the one to which i.

12 the accident happened.

13 :,

The Staff has discussed and been refiewing scue 14 o of the special considerations that relate to Unit 1, and 15,

since the unit was shut down, and the Director of Nuclear Reactor ?.eculation has es:ablished with the licensee a u..

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it has been felt that that was not a great and pressing need g

for a formal order on Unit 1.

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I shutdown conditien of the plant and the brief order at hand i

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t o d a v., of the draf t order at hand toda.v, deals with that.

I would note that in the draft or drafts, clural, J

1 4

I guess, because there are two versions at hand, that I have 5

also an erratum sheet f rca thc counsel's of fice which no tes 6

that the last sentence in the first caran.raph should be 4

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reo. lacad with slightiv. different lancuage, which mera ren. erly 1

3 reflects the Commission's intent.

4 "I Len, would you like to comment an the order?

As Nj. I understand it, the difference between them is simply that 3'

l Version 1 says that there will be a hearing on the request l

12 of.any party; Version 2 mandates the hearing.

.I f

13 h MR. DICKNIT:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'll Ui just quickly take you through the changes for the area je you have befero you on Friday.

O The.first change is we have deleted the word i

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" safely" and substituted the wor'.s "without endangering I3 the health and safe:y of the public."

It is net to be a substantiw change, but one that would conform this standard i

to that of 10 CFR 50, 1

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5' And the addition of the words "and the procedures b

6 to govern further proceedings in this matter" is an 7l acknowledgement that the Comissien still has before it 2

3i some decisions as to how this particular ecnceps

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.r IIl to make clear that it is possible for an interested person 12 to request a hearing without waiting for the subsec.uent I.

1.> v. order to issue.

i IJl As far as the second order is concerned, as you 15 pointed out, Mr. Chairman, the only difference is with 4c

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C0:0!I55ICNER ZE.N::EDY :

I don't believe I have any c.uesticas.

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will be a board and, therefore, whatever conclusions the 2..

board reaches, whatever record it compilan, will then be I

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referred to the C0=nission for its decisien and order.

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MR. BICKWIT:

That's correct.

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CO.ND1ISSIONER KENNEDY:

With or without the usual 1

6 acceals crocess.

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MR. BICKNIT:

That's correct, with or without.

8 That is one of the determinations left for us --

1 7;

CO'OIISSICSE?. AEEARNE :

It would be ccasistent, I

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wouldn' t it, te actually have the regular licensing board, i

11 '

the regular a.cceal board, but onl.y str/ the effectiveness of i

t 12 any decision that they might make, if the decision were --

I 13 1 MR. BICKWIT:

That is one possibility.

1.1 COMMISSIONCR KENNEDY:

You'll pardon to if I note l

15 that even you had difficulty in understanding the orders 16 that wa are talking about.

I guess that goes to a f unda:aent al 1r question I have:

Why can't we jus: 1ssue the so-c alled 13 second order right now, and obviate the need for all this D

nonsense?

We're coina, to issue an order which says thesc f

"O' things have to be done; in the T.eantime, the plant may not

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MR. BICKWIT:

All you're suggcsting is one that i

3 4j the Commission could adopt.

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reflected in the last meeting was that you would not wait i

6 to formulate the various issues and precedures, that these were questions that did involve some complexity, and --

i 3

CCMMISSICNER KE:::7EDY:

I know, but the complexity l

9 is a matter that's been before us for several months new.

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and, as I sav, I think.

It's not exactly a brand new question it is true that so long as we have a number of matters t

U f which in fact would justify such an order, the fact that we i

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I2 don't have the entire list does not cause us to hold back.

) , n We ;nay issue the order and then amend it by adding further iO requirements as time c,oes on, and as the.v are develoo.ed.

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It would seem to me you ought to get on with this, t

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rather than j ust simply postpening pgl infinitum into the future, what's going to have to be done, in any event.

f And my question is why don't we?

Is there some reason that i

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that in the few hours <te had to, at that point, discuss e :

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Is the Staff able to answer that?

Can't we?

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MR. BICKNIT:

I guess I could --

1#

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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

They're going to have to 1 4 do it.

Let's ask the Staff.

Can they or can't they?

1# !

MR. CUNNINGHAM:

Mr. Kennedv, if I mav, there's i

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MR. 3ICDlIT :

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We really haven't focused over tne last 7

couple of days to sit do*:n and do just that job, to t

3' articul.ite those specific things --

i 9 l.

COMMISSIO::ER lC:NEDY:

You,ean in the last 4

b, i.

cou.cle of months?

l j MR. EISD HUI':

Certainly not over the last couple 12,1 of. months.

We haven't even faced the issue of this I

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question of sitting down and articulating it for an order.

.i Ui We have not even over the last couple of da'.s because we 15 thought we were going dcwn the approach where we would be it-now on t.ne an.oroacn n.. we issuac -- if the Ccom..ss'on issued I7 an o rder, to be followed up b" a sucolemental order.

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were getting ready to sit down and try to articulate thesc 3-technical concerns in those areas, interface questions, for e:.: ample, between TMI 2 and T:C 1, different areas ee would 4

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4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: How long would it take?

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I MR. EISENHUT:

Probablv. a coucle of days.

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I COMMISSIONER F.ESSEDY:

Couple of days?

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i MR. EISENHUT:

Yes.

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probably take.

4 10 CCSS11SSIONER KDiMEDY :

So you could put such a 11 !

list from the Staf f's persooctive before the Cc=niscion within 4

1 47 I-a pouple c:. days.

1 a.

MR. EISENHUT:

I would certainly think within 1.1 4

two or three davs.

What do you think?

1 i..

MR. VOLLMER: I think so,

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COMMISSIONER FENMEDY:

Give me a date, plus e, for dust one second.

Give me a date.

"."od ay is the 2 n d.

Which J

date?

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,.-y MR. VOLLMER:

Well, Friday, I think we could come up N

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which ma.y be a.c.orecriatolv resolved before restart.

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COMMISSIO.'ER KE:DIEDY:

So 'ce can have the list l

ai in our hands b.y Frida.v, the 6th?

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MR. VOLLMER:

Yes.

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Certainly I would think that it

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wouldn' t be any dif feren t than if you waited another weck.

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articulate thert at t.nat point in time i

10 CO>DiISSIONER KE:iNEDY :

Right.

l' Mould it be all that different if it were a acnth?

12,

MR. VOLLMER:

I don't think no.

i, 13,

COMMISSIONER ".ENNEDY:

Okav.

That's what I wanted i

la-to find out.

13 So, by this Friday the 6th, you could tell us U

ever" thing v. ou know in the next -*.cnth about this f r o m. a u r a

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perspective, the Staff's perspective; is that right?

13 MR. EISENHUT:

From a relati"e s t a *.dpoin t,

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6, saying, then, if I understand the Staf f correctly, is the 1

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about that now?

The burden then w:.11 he put where it j

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12}

Mr. Chairman, I'd be prepared to accept that j

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burden.

14 )

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Well, we haven't heard li them right now, so we can very easily vote this first order,'

16,

and we could very well vote that next cne on the 6th of i'

July.

I think that the immediate burden is to take action 3

richt now.

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19 CCMMISSICNER KENNEDY:

I.et ne suggest that

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there, get that order cut, and get on with it.

2 CO>D1:SSIO:iER GILINEZY:

But aren't you proposing I

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an crder which would be an interim order, that vou're 1

4!

talking about amending?

1 5f COMMIS SITIER KL;I'EDY :

Far more -- if it became 1

6l necessary.

If it became

-- far less interim.

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would be the difference on a scale of a hundred, between I

3 zero and 5 5 or 9 0.

That's surely of some significance; at 9$

least it is in my mina.

13,

COMMISSICNER GILI:' SKY :

We ll, of course, you're 11 f asking the Staff that has not given detailed thought to the l

i 12

.orecise conditions for openinc. this clanto that would hace

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to be met before they would be satis fied, that the plant 1.1 would meet the statutory standards.

And you're askincthem 15 to' basically throw that together o fer a period of two days.

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CO:OIISSIONER GIIINS.<Y:

When.vou s a.'? see< Im 2.

.'i.is t askinc are vou talkinc. about conditions or --

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CO?OIISSIONER KENNEDY:

Conditions.

That's what

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5' thev. said.

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7 were talking about conditions or concerns.

3 COMMISSION 2R KENNEDY:

Well, I'm using their

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words, t

10 i MR. EISENHUT:

I think the -- use a different 1

11 word to try this.

I think what

'..e could do is we could list t.

12 those areas tha-have come up that rec.uire resolution orior i

12 to restart, technical areas -- not technical, I mean in a h

broad sense, those items that came out of the other S&W-15 bulletins, if there's any other items relating to particular in:crface cuestions between TMI 1 and TMI 2, it is any

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1 going on before you could formulate thase conditions for an 2,

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5; cculd -- and we would certainly put this kind of caveat to I

i it and these are the items that would need to be resolved 6

t 7

to bring it up to the other BsW facilities that are being e

a reviewed for the same technical areas.

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i 10 concerning T.MI 1, T.'4 I 2 which wculd certainly be a fallout 1,.

or c.e various Investigations.

I 12 So you could certainly bring it up to that point 13 in time, and if there's any additional items that arise l

l 4

14 in the future, one would have to address those, just as you l

'13 would :'.or an1' other.clant.

'. 5 COB 1ISSIONER GILINSR'i:

Well I c,ucas for m.vselfr I

~

I'd havn to sav that obviously one could write down A thr ugh l

13 E and say that's a previsional list, but I don't chink that's I

n.

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than technical areas involved here There w'll be ;uestions o f manage."'en t performance, management --

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1 MR. EISENHCT:

That's how I look at it in the

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. broad sense, that is-all these areas that were looked at j

i.

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are'being considered, under bulletins and orders, plus in O

addition to any unique set of those that ralated s.cecifically i

i

,3 i

to TMI.

1 i

3 COMMISS IONER GILIN9'<':':

Nell, I may be doing fcu 4

9i an injustico, but my feeling is that we're not going to be j

10 s in a.cosition tc write down 35 Cercent of that on Fridav.

And even if it wera 35 percent, I see no reason why we i

m 1

4 shouldn't -- why the Commission should act today and do 13 it right some later point.

1. 4 COMMISSIONER AHEARSE:

I have to come out the 1:

same place.

I think we've waited far too long to get thi.s 2

order out.

I would go wi'th No.

C.

"That 's on the reverse --

1 ~i CHAIR.U.S HENDRIE :

I see.

!ere you are.

I see, s-f0 in the counsel's memorandum.

17 L O.g I c~ o~ +.t. m,.v t n

.v. #..nk. :

I have one quest.4on Cn

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3l MR. BICKWIT:

That's right.

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5; COM'4ISSIO::ER AHEAF.NE :

And that's because we are a.

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were, a little closer to the 100 percent mark on the scale a

4 that has been discussed here, what sort of timing is that 1I likely to entail?

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100 cercent.

I'm talking maybe two or three weeks.

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l 5i MR. VOLLME R:

It depends.

Are we talking about i

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pricing sat the areas of concern a little.more finely, or 7i are ;e also talkinc about what would our criteria be for l

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12 !

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

It seems to me there are 1

i 13 investications and investic.)*ations in connection with this 1.:

decision.

The I.;Z investi~atica seems to me highlv.

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e-M MR. EISENMUT:

Vic is that Aucust?

l' MR. STELLO:

Augus t ist.

13 MR. EISENHUT:

In fact, that was the one I was 19 actually thinking of.

If you wait, certainly, for the

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CHAIRMAN HE:iDRIE:

Let's see.

Help Te along i

Af with the configuration.

If the Staff now cn the subject of 4

the technical issues, whare we understand technical to be 5

taken in the broadest sense, if the Staf: lays out the 7

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technical areas that it wants to address <ith regard to changes and further analyses for " nit 1, cne then,'I guess,

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looks to cubnissiona from tha licennea, Staff review and l *'

discussion of these in the normal sort of review process j

MR. EISENHUr:

Additional questions, pe rhaps,

1 *"',l safety evaluation?

i, 13 CHAIPJtAN HE:iDRII:

A safety evaluation, wh i ci' would constitute that testimony at a hearing, and 7he is Applicant will, of course, file whatever further papors he feela are appropriato to his side of the caso.

i The degree to which the so-called technical arean the more that

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3'j COMMISSIONER KE ;NEDY:

Do ycu have a year in mind?

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That's precisel/ the concern i

7 Commissicner Kennedy has in doing -- I can see and I i

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COFDlIS3IONER KE:;5EDY:

Meither ucon Staff nor, I i

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would note, Mr. Chairman, upon the Commission, which troubles 13,

me more.

I la MR. EIS ENH UT :

What I was going to say was U

although that is on the one hand, on the cther hand, we M

could certainly do it in a couple of weeks, :; think, and get 17 more specific.

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We could also try to stay within the ISE

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MR. E IS ENH U"' :

You can't on the specific areas.

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~ All you can do is say these are the areas that we are k

3 going to be working on, and the detailed acceptance criteria, 1

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i-I I don't think you ca%en until after the I&E investigation 3 ',

areas.

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- CH AI2.'GN HENDRIE :

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well on the way to writing the Staf f 's Safety E /aluation 1

10 Report before you issue an order saying here are the matters il that we want to deal with and have to be dealt with, and here I

t 12 are the particular aspects of these things that you're going 13 to focus on, la MR. EISENHCT:

Wello that's whv. I crefer to call 15 them areas, because some you can certainly be very specific U

on, and c hern ycu may not.

And.I think it's a package that keen.s

a. cine.,s ce reasonable time.cou truncate it and co with is what you have.

CC:CIISSIONER GILINSKY :

Le t me ask you something

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t 10 CCMMISSICSER G.I'INSK'l-but.vc.u. den't know l

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whether you're going to need waste tanks or not?

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MR. EISEMHUT:

That's exactly right.

Ne couldn't 13 make a decision, for example, until.vou have the water well W

taken care of cut of the containment.

You don't want to 15 restore TMI 1.

You can have a verv sim"rlo rosition such as I

that.

P So what we are doing is we're orchestrating a.

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5 COMMISSICNER AliEARNE :

Hou firm 1.3 the Orchestra-i i

tion?

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3 MR. STELLO:

I expect to na"0 l

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Ui CC:01TSSIGNER AHEARNE:

Yes, I know.

13 MR. EIS ESliUT :

I would think that some ti:"e, as I mentioned before, acao time earlier than Augus t the lat, U

l 13 they'll be coming down much on the outcano of thosa b

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So I. would thin'< t.c.e bene fit of that stud-;

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2 the actual items coming out 2.n that investigation.

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be an order, supolemental order, :. f nece ssar'e.

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{

S CHAI?J!AN HENDRIE :

3ecause I hate to -- I hate t

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to go forward with the propositicn that we have to see the 1

7 I&E rusults before you can have the further order, and then 3

v.ou c.et the IsE results, and there'll have to be some tima I

l

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to think about them, and the who2e thing, as Dick's concern M

reflects,.;ust slides off dcwnhill, without a clear stopping place and closing out.

i 1

12.i CobD1ISSIONER AHEARME:

As Darroll points out --

13 CHAI.U1AN HENDRIE:

I think, you know, to feel U

that step today is the right path to take, I think I have 13 to see that it's not just way off in the future,that the l

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2 We would also be close enough, I would think, to the impact l

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CO.9tI5SIONER AHE A.EE :

That sounds lic;e a acod i

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thing.

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il CHAIR'4AN HINDRIE :

All right.

Now on the i

12 <

crocedural sides, which are the other aspect of a crocosed 13 further order, Staff says they could provide their thoughts U

in shorter time, I take it, than two weeks.

i j

M MR. CUNNINGHAM:

That's right, Mr. Chairman, 1

that's semething --

i T

CHAIRMAM 'IENDRIE :

-- as to how it might be done, J.

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I1 procedural aspects may add considerable interest, snd that i

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2 each of us will have the particular views and places we 3!

want emphasis and other places we're not so concerned about, I

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'.t ma". rec.u:.re some ciscussion aere,.cerhaos several p

. 1 One Ccamission me e t:.n gs, to. thrash out where t.ne 5.ajority c:.

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5 lies, sort of element by element on the prccedural side.

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i 7t It seems to me that 1 would be possible, since i

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9 could be in hand more promptly, that the Ocmaission mi~ht l'

very well turn itself to ccming and thrashing out agreement II on the procedural aspects before, in fact, having in hand

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"The Comra'asion will also issue an order" --

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11 That's what we just agreed to,Jasn't it?

I 12 !

CH AIR'.!A.'; HE:!DRI E :

It's not only what we agreed i

t 13 to, but allows us a cou.ple of extra -

vcu've accounted l'

for --

15 '

CCf01ISSIONER XE:!NEDY :

Li ten to the dates.

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25 and back up tc 30.

We Ics: a full week to discuss it.

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3 i

MR. BICKWIT:

On what am I being as%cd to ccncent?

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I'm sure it can be done.

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i CO>iMISSIC:iER AHEARMZ :

I'm asking whether you i

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have any comment on the advisabilit"s t

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MR. BICKWIT:

I have no crcblem with that.

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l,,J vou cou.d amen an o rder wit,aa Restrictinc vour c t.Lons!

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saying now, yo u '.:now, here are the things which are going

' ! to be done be fore restart, A,

3, C,

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4.,"l dif ferent direction than we have before, and thare will be a 13 croceeding before restart, and the recommendations of the 4.

board there will cor.e to the Com. mission and we *till icok at 1.4 and look at it again.

It So I don' t think what you're --

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' 3, COE4ISSICSER AHEARNE :

I think, Dick, I basically b

4l~ agree.with the noint vou're making, that is in 30 days we i

5 are not likely to have reached a conclusion as to i

5 scecific recuirements that have to be met to restore it.

to ' e able to do is to get scne general 7

But what we ought c

3 description of --

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'7 CObD!ISSIONER KENNEDY :

That's what this says.

U CHAIR.VXI HENDRIE:

The attempt is to get those U

things hopefully laid down with some --

i

,e COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Lot me point out I a1 n

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MR. BICKNIT:

i think t.here would come a time when if you cc:.tinued to f ail to specify the '. s s u e 3, "cu a

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• iW go ahead and say, we will have a hearing.

So I reccamend the C order to you.

COMMISSIGNER XENNEDY:

ilith the amendment.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

tiith the amendment.

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,oc with us ta..is Commissioner 3rac.-. ors will not

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Commission on the subject, I wculd want to start the schedule 6,

probably the middle of next week, and Monday then gires us 3

7 a chance to recelze it and sc on.

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i some of the options and so on.

I think these procedural -- t.hese raccamendations l

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respective offices.

I think we'll want a good deal of 1:

ciscussion.

I Acos orwarc to a vincrcus Orc anc con i ;-

argument on these things and what wo need are outlinas

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J And./ou folks said the 20 th, and if you can, beat r

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2i COMMIS S IONER AHE.3 ';'IE :

Could 'fou say a few words

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I 6l was organized for Mewbury, and I'm not cure of the orgnnization,

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invited to participate and we understand the p.21ic interest i

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So it hasn't yet been clearly defined of the areas that they're going to 1

12l be interested in talking about and things like that, but 13 we generally try to make curselves as/ailable for discussions i.

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CH AIR'4AN HENDRIE :

Well, if it's necessary, le t,

^d have a Commissi=ar who's becc=ing experienced in u

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Okay.

On your stuff, your schedule is the M

appointad date, plus nothing, minus whate/er ycu can manage.

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