ML20135E634
| ML20135E634 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 12/06/1996 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| References | |
| ACRS-T-2086, NUDOCS 9612110376 | |
| Download: ML20135E634 (97) | |
Text
Officici Trcnscript cf Prec dings 1
g' NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ;
ACRSF20%
i
Title:
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards l 437th Meeting l
TRO4 (ACRS) j RETURN ORIGINAL i Docket Number: (not applicable) x3S NE!
415-7130 THANKS1 l Location: Rockville, Maryland 1
O Date: Friday, December 6,1996 .
l I
Work Order No.: NRC-926 Pages 254-323 21 6 961206 T-2006 PDR DRIGILAL NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
110013 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 (j,I t' "(
Yk,meWNna
f DI5 CLAIMER PUBLIC NOTICE BY THE UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION'S ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS DECEMBER 6, 1996 The contents of this transcript of the proceedings of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission's Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards on DECEMBER 6, 1996, as reported herein, is a record of the discussions recorded at the meeting held on the above date.
This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected l
1 and edited and it may contain inaccuracies.
O
254 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
\. s' 3 +++ ++
4 437TH MEETING 5 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS (ACRS) 6 +++++
7 FRIDAY 8 DECEMBER 6, 1996 9 +++++
10 ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND 11 +++++
12 The Advisory Committee met at the Nuclear 13 Regulatory Commission, Two White Flint North, Room T2B3, !
\~ 14 11545 Rockville Pike, at 1:30 p m., Thomas S. Kress, 15 Chairman, presiding.
16 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
17 THOMAS S. KRESS, Chairman 18 ROBERT L. SEALE, Vice Chairman 19 IVAN CATTON, Member 20 MARIO H. FONTANA, Member 21 DON W. MILLER, Member 22 DANA A. POWERS, Member 23 WILLIAM J. SHACK, Member 24 O
) 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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255 1 ACRS STAFF PRESENT:
1 l
, 2 JOHN T. LARKINS, Executive Director 3 MICHELE KELTON, Technical Secretary l
4 SAM DURAISWAMY ;
5 CAROL A. HARRIS )
I 6 RICHARD P. SAVIO !
l 1
7 PAUL BOEHNERT l 8 NOEL DUDLEY l 9 MEDHAT M. EL-ZEFTAWY l
10 MICHAEL T. MARKLEY l 11 AMARJIT SINGH 12 l
13 ALSO PRESENT: l
's
(')h 14 FRANK J. CONGEL !
l 15 DENNY ROSS l 16 RICHARD J. BARRETT l
17 i 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
(^s) t 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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256 1 A-G-E-N-D-A 2 Aaenda Item Pace I,_h V 3 NRC Emergency Response Program 4 Remarks by the Subcommittee Chairman 257 5 Briefing and Discussion with representatives 6 of the NRC staff regarding modifications to the 7 NRC Emergency Response Program 8 Frank J. Congel 259 9 Denny Ross 257 10 Richard J. Barrett 11 12 13
/ 'T (s' 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
(
y) 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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257 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 7,
2 (1:39 p.m.)
( i 3 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Could I please call the 4 meeting to order again? The next agenda item is the NRC 5 emergency response program. Our cognizant member on this 6 issue is Bob Seale. So I'll turn the floor over to Bob.
7 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Thank you very much, 8 Tom.
9 Our presenters here are from AEOD. I warned 10 them that we had just been at our annual Christmas klatsch 11 with the staff and other persons. So the measure of your 12 performance will be how well you keep us awake this 13 afternoon. So you've got your marching orders.
s 5- / 14 Richard, are you going to start this or who j 15 is? Denny?
16 MR. ROSS: I'll start.
17 MR. BARRETT: Denny Ross will start.
18 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Okay. An eminent member 19 of Clan Ross will begin the presentation.
20 MR. ROSS: Well, to start with, Frank Congel 21 and I were reminiscing about how soon it's going to be 18 22 years since TMI. And the general area of incident 23 response, emergency response, emergency planning, and so 24 on, we spent, Frank and I spent, quite a bit of time that f~s
() 25 first several weeks at TMI gathering a lot of experience NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISt.AND AVE., N W.
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258 1 on how not to do emergency response.
g3 2 The communications were abysmal, nonexistent 3 for the first few days. The work facilities were 4 extremely crude. The only food service open was 5 Mcdonald's. And after a while, it was not in the high I
6 quality you're referring to next door, obviously.
7 Those projection tools were pencil and paper 8 and a list of tables. And for quite a bit of time, I I
9 think Frank and the others were just plotting on the 10 curies released as a function of isotopes.
11 Views amongst the licensee, the NRC, and the 12 state government as to what to do often conflicted and, to 13 a large degree, because of the absence of quality i
r^s1
'd' 14 communications.
15 And what was going on inside the reactor was 16 indeed a mystery. In fact, one anecdote is we had some 17 technical assistance from Oak Ridge Instrument and Control 18 Division who came up on a late-night flight with suitcases 19 of noise analysis equipment. I'm referring to Dwayne Frye i
20 and Bert Ackerman, among others.
21 They hand-connected into some instrumentation.
l 22 And they said, "Aha. The core barrel and internals are
! 23 still intact because I've got this characteristic 24 nine-hertz response."
) 25 It's that sort of ad hoc discovery of things NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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l 259 i
1 that were used in the aftermath of TMI. That's the sort
, 2 of overall thing I think that led to an overhaul and a O 3 modernization of the incident response program you'll be 4 hearing about.
5 Now, emergency response, emergency planning is 6 officially an element of defense-in-depth. And the 7 Commission has on occasion used the term or the analogy of 8 a lifeboat. An ocean liner might be, quote, " unsinkable,"
1 9 but you carry lifeboats anyway for defense-in-depth. And )
10 although you might include design-engineered safety 11 features and containment as ingredients of l
12 defense-in-depth, you also have to in order to be complete 13 include emergency planning and response.
(s)
\/ 14 It's gotten a lot better I think in the last 15 18 years. And some of the reasons it's gotten a lot 16 better are what you're going to hear about in the next 17 hour1.967593e-4 days <br />0.00472 hours <br />2.810847e-5 weeks <br />6.4685e-6 months <br />.
18 MR. CONGEL: Our first item in 19 defense-in-depth. And keeping you all awake was Denny's 20 jacket with, of course, a matching tie.
21 I've had the position of Director of the 22 Incident Response Division for --
23 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Do you want to come up 24 front? I think it would be easier for us to see you.
()
s_-
25 MR. CONGEL: Sure.
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260 1 CHAIRMAN KRESS: And Mario is getting a crick
, , , 2 in his neck. 1
( ) 1
~
3 MR. ROSS: Do you want to borrow the coat?
l 4 VICE CHAIRMAN SZALE: And if you guys want to 5 join in, you're more than welcome to.
6 MR. ROSS: We have more deniability if we sit I
7 back here.
8 (Laughter.)
9 MR. ROSS: What the heck.
l l
10 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: That's a treasured )
11 strata, too, isn't it?
12 MR. CONGEL: Maybe we got a little too l l
13 informal. What I was going to say is that I have been l g 5 e
\_/ 14 Director of the Incident Response Division for just over 15 two years. And although my involvement directly with AEOD 16 spans just that time, as Denny pointed out, I've been 17 involved with incident response for actually quite a few 18 years, 3 tarting with the baptism by fire at Three Mile 19 Taland 20 What I will describe to you is, as Denny 21 pointed out, the continuing evolutionary process of 22 response capability that obviously we hope we'll never 23 have to use but that we feel very confident in terms of 24 its capability.
p) y 25 We do, as you'll find cut in a few moments, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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261 l
1 exercise it frequently. And the involvement of virtually '
l 2 the whole agency has been one of really unselfish I 7-ss
- 1 3 devotion.
4 My staff may raise their eyebrows a little 5 because sometimes we have to push on some people to l
6 participate, but the overall support by the agency from ,
1 l
7 the regions to the office has really been overwhelming.
i 8 And, of course, this is an agency function. Our task in l 9 AEOD is to coordinate the agency function.
10 What I am going to do is share today with you 11 the -- maybe we'll just turn the pages that you have in 12 front of you -- to share the podium here with Rich Barrett 13 and give you a perspective of where we are and some m
~- 14 initiatives that we have underway.
15 I did have at least one earlier opportunity to 16 talk to this Committee, but I do note that there are a 17 number of new members. So I want to give an overview and 18 intersperse it with some of the new initiatives that we 19 have in place.
20 We'll start out with this outline, discuss the l
21 roles that the participants have in responding to any kind 22 of emergency. I'll break and give a specific description l 23 of what this agency has as responsibility. Rich will give 24 an overview of the program itself with different (n)
%/
25 specifics, as you will see, and also give a description of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234 4433 i
i
262 1 what we're embarking on to continue the improvement and
/
,, 2 upgrading of our program.
3 It's important to start out with a definition 4 of our roles because until you have the opportunity to 5 focus in what a good emergency response capability is, 6 it's sometimes easy to lose sight of what roles we have.
7 The important thing and the thing to keep in 8 mind at all times is that the licensee has the primary 9 role to respond to an accident or incident at the plant.
10 After all, it's their plant. They run it every day. They 11 have the most intimate familiarity with the manner in 12 which it operates. Anything that goes wrong, they're 13 responsible for mitigating the consequences and dealing
's /
14 directly with the respective state and local respc.ders 15 that would be available to protect the public health and 16 safety.
17 Again, I'll remind that the state and local 18 people are the ones that could be most directly impacted 19 by the accident. And they are responsible for having a 20 mechanism in place to protect their public health. That l
21 is carried out by the authorities that exist in the local 22 area. And it entails, of course, very close coordination 23 and cooperation between the licensee and the locals.
24 Clearly, the federal government has (3 25 But, particularly in
, () capabilities to be brought to bear.
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I 263 i 1 the early phases of an accident, it's imperative that the 2 state and local people are prepared to take whatever 3 actions are necessary to mitigate any action and 4 consequences.
5 Now, we, as an agency, obviously issue the 6 licenses to the utility to operate the plant. We have a 7 primary role of managing the federal capabilities that 8 could be brought to bear to mitigate the consequences.
9 But we do certainly more than that as well. l l
10 We very closely monitor the manner in which i 11 the licensee is handling the accident. And we're also 12 very closely involved with overseeing or monitoring how I
13 the state and local is responding to the accident as well. j 14 I'll go into some more detail about that, but I don't want 15 to have any sight lost of the importance of the roles of 16 the licensee or the state.
17 CHAIRMAN KRESS: What are the laws at the 18 moment about requirements for having to have an emergency 19 response plan? Before you can give a license, such a plan 20 has to exist?
21 MR. CONGEL: Yes, a plan has to exist. And 22 before it can go above five percent power, you have to 23 show the capability of responding to an accident by 24 exercising the outside plan.
(D (s ,/ 25 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Exercising the outside plan.
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264 1 MR. CONGEL: Right, which is evaluated, graded 7s 2 by FEMA and the results of that given to this agency to
() 3 fold into the final decision-making process in issuing a I l
4 full power license. l 5 CHAIRMAN KRESS: So although the 6 responsibility for that lies with the state, local, you l l
7 have a pretty big stick in that you can't --
8 MR. CONGEL: No question.
9 CHAIRMAN KRESS: -- grant a license without 10 that being in place? i l
11 MR. CONGEL: Absolutely true.
12 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: What about the 13 requirement for periodic exercises to demonstrate the
~'s l
l 's / 14 continuing capability?
15 MR. CONGEL: That's also a requirement. Every l
16 other year what they call a full participation exercise, 17 is required at the plant site. It is evaluated by FEMA.
18 The degree of evaluation does vary year to year. Certain 19 specific areas may be concentrated on. But, in any case, 20 every other year that is done.
21 FEMA sends to us a report regarding the 22 acceptability of the performance of the state and the 23 locals. There's a process associated with that I could 24 spend a meeting on.
(D
( ,) 25 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Sure.
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265 1 MR. CONGEL: And, in fact, it is overseen by 7
2 NRR. But as long as,that's done satisfactorily, things
)
(
3 continue along.
4 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Sure, sure.
5 MR. ROSS: Frank, if you want it, I've got ,
l 6 large-print because I blew it up copies of Appendix E to 7 Part 50 on emergency plan. And Subparagraph (f) (2) under I
8 " Training" covers the conduct of emergency preparedness ,
l 9 exercises. And it's got a whole bunch of stuff in there j l
10 on what you've got to do. !
11 MR. CONGEL: Right.
12 MR. ROSS: If you need for-reference copies, I l
13 can hand these out. l
/^x m/ 14 MR. CONGEL: The point that I wanted to make, 15 it is important that they continue to have a high level of 16 capability.
17 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes. Yes, yes.
18 MR. CONGEL: If that fails, there are a number 19 of points at which there are opportunities to correct 20 that. Ultimately a decision would have to be made about 21 the continued operability of the plant. We've never 22 gotten close to that.
23 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes.
24 MR. CONGEL: Well, we've got close, but that (y
() 25 was some years ago. In recent times, we haven't gotten NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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1 266 !
1 close. I
.. 2 The NRC role -- and I also want to point out
('-) 3 I'm talking from the AEOD perspective, which coordinates i
j i
4 the agency response. The evaluation of the licensee j l
5 performance is done, of course, as part of our inspection l l
6 process and overseen by NRR, the Emergency Preparedness 7 Branch or the Section now. And the off-site evaluations 8 are handled by FEMA through that branch as well. The AEOD 9 component is to coordinate the -- well, what I'm going to 10 be talking about: our agency capabilities and response.
11 Now, I already alluded to part of it, the NRC 12 role. Just two floors above us here, we have the 13 Operations Center. We use that as a communications as ,
,e 3 \
iss' 14 well as a gathering and technical center so that we can 15 monitor what's going on at the power plant so that we have 16 as good an understanding of what actually is taking place 17 as is possible.
18 CHAIRMAN KRESS: We had a tour of that 19 earlier. I don't know how many of the --
20 MR. CONGEL: That was another question I was 21 going to -- since we looked at the makeup of the 22 Committee, we noticed that there are probably some new 23 people. And we want to extend -- I'll do that right now 24 -- the invitation.
(m) 25 CHAIRMAN KRESS: It's a tour well worth taking NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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267 l 1
1 if you haven't been on it, some of the new members.
i r~s 2 MR. CONGEL: There were actually two i 3 invitations I was going to extend. Any time you want the l
4 tours of our capabilities, just call me. I'll arrange it. i 5 The other thing is that we would be happy to l 6 provide an overview, a detailed overview, of the manner in l l
7 which we do respond to an accident and the kind of 8 training that we give from the Chairman of the Commission 9 as well as the other Commissioners as head of the 10 executive team to office heads or new office heads who are I
1 11 members of the executive team. It may be worthwhile for l
12 you to consider because it does give what I would modestly j 13 say is I think a very good view of what the overall n
i\ 'i 14 response capability is. !
l 15 In any case, what we do are these: We use 1
16 that center to monitor the status of any incident that's 17 going on. I'll show you later on how we get into this.
18 We look at the kind of recommendations that come from the 19 licensee based on their assessment of the accident to the 20 state and local people co that they can have appropriate 21 protective actions.
22 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Suppose you just completely 23 disagree with the recommendations being made by the state.
24 What's the process there?
/
! ,) 25 MR. CONGEL: There are at least -- let me talk NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D C 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
268 1 about two levels of response. First of all, when we have es 2 -- I'm getting a little ahead of myself. But when have G 3 constituted an executive team with the Commissioner or the 4 Chairman in charge of the team, as you'll see in a few 5 moments, they are briefed on the knowledge that we have, 6 understanding we have of the accident. i 7 If there is, for example, in our estimation an 8 underestimation of the seriousness of the plant status and 9 that results in what we regard as an inappropriate 10 recommendation of the state and locals for protective 11 actions, this will be informed to the executive team. The 12 executive team through the Chairman would have direct 13 contact with the governor of the state as well as the head
[ \
\~ 14 decision-makers in the licensee's organization.
15 I could go one step farther.
16 CHAIRMAN KRESS: That would be something that 17 would be hard to ignore, wouldn't it?
18 MR. CONGEL: Yes. Regardless of the fact of 19 what I stated earlier about principal responsibilities, I 20 do know that there would be a lot of attention focused on 21 us for, if nothing else, agreement or concurrence with the 22 actions that are being taken. So there is a 23 responsibility on us.
24 Ultimately we do have statutory authority.
(_/ 25 Now, this is down at the bottom of the list of actions to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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269 1 do. We do have statutory authority if the need arose to
-s 2 actually take over the plant.
'^
3 CHAIRMAN KRESS: I see.
4 MR. CONGEL: That is written out. But any 5 time I give a list of actions that we have, personally I 6 can't quite imagine that situation.
7 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Yes. I can't either.
8 MR. CONGEL: But you asked, and that is there.
9 Most of the things we feel that we could handle on the 10 basis of discussion and an understanding as well as 11 possible technically of what's going on.
12 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: The fact that it's there 13 may well be part of the reason you'd never have to use it.
(~N)
\/ 14 MR. CONGEL: Right, right. It's like the i 15 armed guards out here.
l 16 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes.
1 17 MR. CONGEL: Right. Same thing.
l l 18 Now, as you go down through our role, you'll 19 see that that's exactly what fits in. The ideal case is 20 that we're together and understanding the accident, the 21 course of the accident, where it may be going. And we're 22 always looking at it from the Number 2 bullet here.
23 We will provide support to the licensee when 24 requested. We would maybe even give support when we're kmj 25 not requested for it, as I just alluded to. Another very NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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270 1 important thing that we have is access to other federal 2 agencies and their capabilities to mitigate accident 7_
^'
3 consequences.
4 Particularly, the first one that comes to mind 5 is DOE. DOE is, as you all know, a very large federal G agency with a substantial amount of capability in 7 responding to nuclear-type accidents.
8 There are two capabilities that would be 9 promptly accessed if we did have an accident at a power 10 plant. One is the aerial monitoring capability, which 11 consists of several aircraft headquartered in Las Vegas.
12 And there are some here at Andrews Air Force Base in the 13 Washington area.
i 4
\> 14 There's a fixed wing as well as a helicopter 15 capability. They're outfitted and monitored to do plume 16 tracking, plume tracing. If the situation arose, they can i
17 be typically brought to a site within 12 to 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> after 18 request, maybe quicker. Of course, it depends.
19 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Are these are under DOE, 20 these right here?
21 MR. CONGEL: Yes, sir. Yes, right. The 22 contractor right now is Bechtel, but it's PJF Japability.
23 And it's at Nellis Air Force Base just outside of Las 24 Vegas. I've been there myself. The planes are there.
i ,j 25 They have exercises with the planes routinely at this one.
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271 1 The other is the so-called FRMAC, Federal
,-, 2 Radiological Monitoring Assistance Capability. That t
3 consists of teams of people that have both equipment and 4 capability to analyze off-site consequences of the 5 radioactive release.
6 CHAIRMAN KRESS: F-R-M-A?
7 MR. CONGEL: FRMAC, F-R-M-A-C.
8 CHAIRMAN KRESS: A-C. <
9 MR. CONGEL: Federal Radiological Monitoring 10 Assistance Capability.
11 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Is that part of FEMA or is 12 that -- ,
l i
13 MR. CONGEL: Assessment Capability Center.
,/ ~
c, )
N/ 14 CHAIRMAN KRESS: -- part of FEMA? .
l 15 MR. CONGEL: Pardon me?
l 16 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Is that part of FEMA or --
17 MR. CONGEL: No, no, no. DOE. It's l Y
18 DOE-headed. Those are the two principal capabilities that 19 would be accessed early on in an incident that would have 20 either resulted in radioactive material being released 21 into the environment or where it's anticipated.
22 Also, we have responsibility for being the 3 23 lead federal agency and coordinating all of the other 24 federal agencies, like Department of Agriculture for one.
(p ,/ 25 There is a whole list of agencies that would provide NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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272 1 assistance in such a situation.
l f- 2 We would be the conduit for requests and
~
3 information, state and locals. We also have obligations 4 to communicate details about the accident internationally
" l 5 to downtown here, both Congress and the White House, as 6 well as to the public.
7 Early on in the accident, those communications 8 would take place from here in Rockville at the point. And 1
i When we establish a I 9 I'll get to this in a little bit.
10 presence at the site itself, a number of these ,
J l
11 responsibilities would be transferred to the site.
12 However, communications with Congress and the White House 13 and international would still be from here.
[/h
- 14 I'll go into some more details here about how 15 we carry out these functions. But, again, upstairs two 16 floors above us here is an Operations Center. It's 17 staffed 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> a day. It's staffed by people who are 18 trained to receive calls from licensees and follow I
19 procedures so that the calls are followed up in an ;
20 appropriate way. Whether they require an immediate type 21 of response or if it's a different category ranging to 22 allegations, these individuals know how to handle it.
23 The principal reason, though, fer having it is 24 so that we can make a very quick decision to what the r
k 25 level of NRC response should be, if at all, and if the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
273 1 response requires activating of the response center, that gS 2 that takes place in a manner that is most expeditious.
+ i
(/
3 When we do have the Ops Center what we call 4 activated, then the kinds of things that I mentioned in 5 the last slide would be coordinated and actually performed 6 at that location.
7 I'll just show you on the next slide a flow 8 diagram of how things actually occur.
1 9 (Slide) l 10 MR. CONGEL: HOOs, headquarters operations i
11 officers, that's the HOOs. The licensee, other 12 information, whatever, we publicize this phone number as
,_ 13 much as we can. Any inquiries or information regarding an
\
'-} 14 emergency at a plant is to be forwarded through our HOO 15 office.
16 So any information from licensee resident 17 inspector -- we've got others, someone who sees something 18 happening in a plant calls the Ops Center. Those 19 individuals are trained, as I said earlier, to sort 20 through the calls and start a sequence of other calls 21 going so that a timely decision could be made.
22 When any incident at a power plant or one of 23 our NMSS fuel cycle facilities comes in, the ops officer 24 reaches a certain trigger level, calls the EO, the p) i s, 25 emergency officer.
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274 1 Each one of the offices, NMSS, NRR, has on
,_s 2 call an EO 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> a day, 7 days a week, typically
( \
^
3 consists of a senior member of the technical management 4 group in the respective office. The regional duty officer 5 -- there's always one there 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />, 7 days a week.
6 And if it involves a safeguard / security event, 7 there's another call made. Since the majority of them 8 don't, the call's first assessment that is done is done 9 between the EO, the RDO, and typically Rich Barrett or l
10 myself.
11 The intent is to rapidly assess the l 12 significance of the call and determine whether we have 13 just a relatively minor event that's taking place or
-- 14 whether some advance response, advance status of response, 15 by the agency is necessary. !
16 This call typically should not take more than 17 10 er 15 minutes to determine whether any further action 18 is necessary on an emergency basis or not. This is not
, 19 the call where people determine potential issues, whether 20 this plant should be going on a problem plant list or 4
21 anything. It's strictly to determine whether we're going 22 to go to the next step in establishing an agency response.
23 If the problem is by the estimate of the RDO 24 and the EO serious enough, then a call is initiated to a O
y ,j 25 member of the executive team and the Regional NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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275 f
1 Administrator for determination to be made as to what
,_ 2 level of agency response should be started.
3 Now, typically the ET member that gets called 4 in the middle of the night has been Ed Jordan. However, l
5 in the past, it's been the Director, Office Director, of 6 NRR for Reactors, sometimes the Regional Administrator, 7 oftentimes the Regional Administrator.
8 But, again, at that point the decision is made l l
1 9 what the agency response should be. As you know, the vast l 10 majority of times, it doesn't even get to that level. But 11 when it does, we determine as to what kind of presence we 12 want to have in the response center to follow the course 13 of this incident.
rm k-- 14 of course, some of these calls every once in a j 15 while are very easy to make. We don't go through this 1
16 process, for example, if we had something like a steam l 17 generator tube rupture. That's a serious enough event so 18 that even the ops officer will bypass that middle call, 19 get to the point where we -- but as someone who has been 20 both an EO and as in NRR and now on these other calls, the 21 majority of the events that we discuss are not immediately 22 that obvious as to potential significance. It takes a 23 little bit more digging.
24 The kinds of classifications that the
() 25 licensees attach to these phone calls range from the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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1 276 1 unusual events -- you've probably heard of these terms --
2 all the way through a general emergency.
l
!j 3 You'11 see in a moment the vast majority, of l
l l
4 course, are unusual events. And there are a series of l l
5 unusual events that are required to be reported that way 6 that are really in terms of safety not very significant. ;
1 I
7 So we get a lot of those.
8 When you get above an unusual event, you can )
9 be pretty sure with a couple of exceptions that you are in l 10 a situation that requires more attention, more thought.
11 In any case, you can read yourself what the definitions 12 are.
l 13 Associated with these calls are the NRC l
[v} 14 response modes. There is not a one to one correspondence 15 between what the licensee calls as a classification level 16 and what our response mode may be. Normal is just what we 17 do on an everyday basis all the way to the first three 18 bullets there are the ones that really specify our levels 19 of response.
20 We have had a number of cases that have been 21 reported as unusual events that have caused us to activate 22 the response center. So you can't pass things off by the 23 classification by the licensee.
24 Conversely, we've also had some alerts im (s j) 25 reported that haven't risen to the level where we've had a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N W.
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277 1 formal response. So that's just a call that we make on
,3 2 our own.
i \
3 Standby is where our response center upstairs 4 has one member of the executive team and a few technical 5 people staffing both the reactor safety team position and 6 the protective measures team to follow the course of an 7 accident. And the determination is made as to whether 8 that's an appropriate response or depending on what 9 happened as to whether we have to escalate or not.
10 Once we go into what we call the standby mode, 11 there is a lot of attention being paid to the accident.
12 And very close track is kept as to what is going on.
13 If things appear to get worse, we go into what t i N/ 14 we call initial activation. Initial activation is full 15 staffing of the response center: reactor safety team, 16 protective measures team, five or six members of the 17 executive team, all the communication links. And at that 18 point we also dispatch a team from the respective regional 19 office to go to the site where the accident is taking 20 place.
21 CHAIRMAN KRESS: If that activation were to 22 occur today, who would that Commissioner be?
23 MR. CONGEL: The Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Chairman?
( ,) 25 MR. CONGEL: Yes. I believe she's here. If NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHCOE ISLAND AVE., N.W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234 4433
278 1 she's here, she's the head of the ET. When she is on s 2 travel, vacation, or any other leave, she has to designate 3 an acting. That would be the individual who would come to 4 head the executive team.
5 We'll go into a few more details, but, at any 6 case, at the initial activation stage, the issues that I 1 7 touched upon earlier regarding the communications with 8 other federal agencies, capabilities being brought to the 1
9 site by the other agencies, communications with the state l
10 and local government, all of those things would take 1
11 place. This is truly a full-fledged serious response.
l 12 There's a time factor between a decision made i ys 13 to go into initial activation and getting all the people
\
' ') 14 at the response center and the time factor associated with 15 the assembled regional team to go to the site. During the i 16 time the regional team was traveling to the sit 1, we're 17 staffing up here and getting as good a handle a. ae can on l l
l 18 the reactor accident.
I 19 If by the time the team arrives the accident 20 is still underway, it's a point at which the team on site i 21 has an understanding, appreciation, and a handle on what's I
22 going on so that the lead for the agency response to that 23 accident gets transferred to the site. And it will be 24 then headed typically by the Regional Administrator.
( ,/ 25 We would still have full staffing here with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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279 1 all the technical support, but most of the communication I
7_x 2 links, for example, with the general public, briefings and I
( )
3 so on, would be handled at the site. What technical 4 analyses to be performed would be directed from the site.
5 CHAIRMAN KRESS: When there's a site emergency 6 response drill, do you guys go through all of these things 7 as part of the drill?
8 MR. CONGEL: Yes, sir. When we have one that 9 involves headquarters participation, typically we j 10 preposition the regional team. We don't go through the 11 effort of having the team leave from the site.
i 12 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Yes.
MR. CONGEL: If it's Region 4 and it's at the l 13 b)
\/ 14 Arkansas plant, they go to Arkansas the day before, have 15 them assimilate travel to the site.
16 But no. We do go to the site. And what we 17 try to do, all of us here have gone with the site team on 18 various occasions to make sure we see perspectives from 19 both sides. For example, we have regional people 20 participate back here.
1 21 But when we do the exercising, we do try to l 4
22 cover the whole spectrum. And we do have a full staffing 23 of everything from the ET to the protective measures and 24 reactor safety team.
() 25 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Is it possible for one of us NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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280 l 1 to go on one of those --
,_ 2 MR. CONGEL: You have an open invitation to 3 observe exercise here. If you are interested in going l
4 with a site team, let me know. I'll make the arrangements 1 5 through the regional office.
6 Let's see. The region has two to three 7 exercises a year with their respective -- )
8 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Two to three? l 9 MR. CONGEL: Right. Each region does. And we 10 have like four what we call full-scale exercises here 11 involving our employees. We have to have at least one per 12 regional office per year.
13 Most of the thrust of the drills in any case
~s
_ 14 are with rapid response, rapid assessment of what's going 15 on, and timeliness on the part of the state and the locals 16 to provide actions that would hopefully eliminate but 17 certainly minimize any potential exposures to the general 18 public 19 MEMBER POWERS: This transition from initial 20 activation to expanded activation, I'm a reporter from The 21 Washington Post. And I show up here. and you're in 22 expanded activation. Do you tell me to go away?
23 MR. CONGEL: No, no. We would still have to 24 have some, I'm certain, communication links here. But rN iv) 25 what we would tell The Washington Post reporter is that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR!BERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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l 281 1 the primary source of information about what's going on 2 with the site is going to be given at the site at the 1
( 3 Joint Information Center. The Joint Information Center is l l
4 a place that's going to be staffed by both the NRC, FEMA, 5 and the licensee. 1 6 I am certain we would still have to have some 7 links here, but we would tell -- we wouldn't shut down i i
l 8 things here and say, "We're not talking anymore." But the l 9 primary communication links about the status of the plant, 10 in particular, are going to come from the site. j 1
11 MR. BARRETT: I think we would be speaking l l
12 primarily from press releases that are generated at the 13 site by the state, the licensee, and the site team. So we l 14 would not be generating new information here as much as 15 relaying information.
l 16 CHAIRMAN KRESS: So The Washington Post 17 reporter would be better off going down to the site, 18 instead of --
19 MR. CONGEL: That's the ideal case, yes. In 20 terms of throwing people out, I can't imagine somebody l 21 doing that.
22 I alluded to earlier our headquarters ops i
l 23 officers, and I told you how well-qualified they are for 24 their jobs. Well, all of them have a technical
- O wj 25 background. And they are very well-versed in plant NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
f (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234 4433 l
t
1 282 1 systems. And they also have training in recognizing
)
,~ 2 problems in fuel cycle facilities as well.
( )s 3 Before they become full-fledged ops officers, 4 they have to fulfill the requirements of the qualification 5 program, which also includes spending time on watch under 6 observation.
7 They gets lots of phone calls. I'll show you 8 the distribution in a moment. So, although you can think 9 of times being slow in the middle of the night, they do 1
1 10 get a lot of action.
11 They also have the 800 phone number to re_r ve 12 allegations, which is a relatively new responsibility they 13 had, which is about a year now, Rich? i
() 1
- 14 MR. BARRETT: Approximately.
15 MR. CONGEL: Approximately a year. They also 16 have responsibility for providing INES reports. INES 17 reports are international reports categorizing the 18 severity of incidents that are reported to us by our 19 licensees.
20 CHAIRMAN KRESS: What sort of allegations are 21 we talking about here? Like offloading the core when 22 they're not supposed to?
23 MR. CONGEL: Yes. That's one. Not having 24 spent fuel pool capabilities that meet engineering specs.
(O_) 25 I mean, the whole range.
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283 1 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Some of that seems a little
,-~
- 2 bit strange that that particular responsibility is vested O 3 in you guys.
4 MR. CONGEL: The desire is to make the 5 transmitting of concerns of this type as easy and in as 6 non-threatening an environment as possible. This is just 7 one way.
8 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Okay. I see.
9 MR. CONGEL: Just in one way. I mean, people 10 can talk to our inspectors on site, call the regional 11 office. But if someone wants even to remain anonymous, --
12 CHAIRMAN KRESS: They can do that.
13 MR. CONGEL: -- call us, make a report.
(.s) 14 CHAIRMAN KRESS: I see. Okay. That makes a 15 lot of sense. ]
i 16 MR. BARRETT: The 800 number typically would 17 ring at the regional office during the day.
1 18 MR. CONGEL: During the day, right.
l 19 MR. BARRETT: This is just --
20 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Oh, this thing is --
l l
21 MR. CONGEL: So you can do it any time of day 22 or night.
23 CHAIRMAN KRESS: This same number might ring 24 anywhere?
V, 25 MR. BARRETT: Yes, that's correct.
l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND /.VE., N W.
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284 1 CHAIRMAN KRESS: I see.
,_. 2 MEMBER CATTON: Do you have to call in from a
( )
" 3 pay phone?
4 MR. BARRETT: That's your choice.
5 MEMBER POWERS: The categorization of events, 1
6 still there's a disconnect between the U.S. system and the 7 WANO system?
8 MR. CONGEL: Yes. The system that's for INES 9 has seven levels. And, of course, we have four. The 10 intents, though, of both systems differ somewhat. We want 11 the assessment and categorization to determine in a rapid 12 way what our response should be. The seven-level system 13 is to communicate something after the fact to give the rm l i
\_/ 14 general public a handle on just the degree of severity 15 associated with that incident. So they're really of two 16 very different purposes there.
17 MR. ROSS: For example, Dana, you could get an 18 INES notification for a reactor condition, not an event, 19 where if the reactor never shut down, kept on running, 20 they discovered something wrong like maybe the diesel 21 generators were turned off. So they turned them back on 22 again just in case, you know. That could be an INES 23 notification, but it would not be an emergency 24 classification event. So the two systems are totally iO
( ,) 25 orthogonal.
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285 1 MEMBER POWERS: When I put on my Washington 2 reporter hat again and I say, "Well, what's the status of 7_
i
\' 3 the plant?"; which system do you communicate to me?
4 MR. CONGEL: When we communicate anything 5 associated with our plants, it's our system.
6 MEMBER POWERS: Okay.
7 MR. ROSS: As a matter of fact, I think the 8 Committee knows as a matter of policy we don't rate INES 9 events until at least a week after an event takes place.
10 And, even then, we're well above the reporting 11 average in terms of time. Many countries report months.
12 MEMBER POWERS: Yes.
13 MR. ROSS: And some report every three months,
\~) 14 just like cleaning house. So it's not a prompt reporting 15 system at all.
16 MR. CONGEL: Our involvement with INES is as a 17 result of our membership with the international groups.
18 We feel very comfortable with the system we have to 19 respond to the program we have in place, part of the 20 program we have in place, for emergency response.
21 (Slide) 22 MR. CONGEL: The kind of calls and the 23 distribution of calls I have for the last seven years are 1
24 shown on this slide. And it gives you an idea. The years (n
%)
) 25 are listed from '89 to '95.
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286 1 Alerts and site area emergencies are plotted
,- s 2 here. And the red line shows which ones actually resulted
~
3 in a response by the agency here. One thing that I find 4 to point out or is an interesting fact that we had a 5 response here with, we determined that it was in our best 6 safety interest to respond to events, even though it 7 didn't rise to the level of alert.
8 So we have both alerts and 2 site area 9 emergencies, for a total of 11. But that meant there were 10 a couple of unusual events, maybe even more than that, --
11 I don't know how this breaks down -- that resulted in us 12 doing a level of activation. So this is just one of the 13 examples that illustrates what I said earlier.
\ 14 There is not a one-to-one correspondence 15 between what we had called in and how we respond. We do 16 that every single time a call comes in. We do an 17 assessment.
18 That also gives you an idea that the ops 19 officers really are kept very busy. And, just as an 20 aside, before I turn it over to Rich, we have a lighting 21 system in the Ops Center office that has intensity 22 variations in it that are balanced for individuals' 23 biorhythms. And the intent of the intensity variation is 24 to keep the individuals alert, regardless of what time of
,O
( ,/ 25 the day or night it is. So at 3:00 a.m. or 3:00 p.m., we NEAL R. GFU)SS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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I 287 1 have a --
g 2 CHAIRMAN KRESS: You compile individual d 3 biorhythms?
I I
4 MR. CONGEL: Yes, sir, exactly right. .
1 5 MEMBER POWERS: Do you think that --
6 MR. CONGEL: You might want to come up and see l 7 it if you haven't seen it before, j 8 MEMBER POWERS: Do you think that you could 9 configure the lighting system here?
10 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes. l l
11 MR. CONGEL: We have to tie it to Christmas 12 parties.
13 CHAIRMAN KRESS: You need particularly to do
/^N
)
'\/ 14 something around 2:00 to 2:30.
15 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: That's right.
16 MR. CONGEL: _ t that would be something else 17 for a tour, just an overview. We'll show you that. And I 18 think you might find it interesting. The people do claim 19 that it is helpful in keeping their alert level up.
20 CHAIRMAN KRESS: I guess I didn't recall that 21 from the last tour.
22 MEMBER POWERS: You were asleep at the time.
23 MEMBER FONTANA: What happens in the event of 24 a nuclear attack or something like that? Would it work n
25 the same way?
i]
! NEAL R. GROSS l COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W l
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288 1 MR. CONGEL: A nuclear attack?
,S 2 MEMBER FONTANA: Yes.
( !
%/
3 MR. CONGEL: There's another part of the 4 organization. The federal family would get involved with 5 that. If there was --
6 MEMBER FONTANA: There's a nuclear attack and 7 something like this happens. Is this --
8 MR. ROSS: Let me interrupt a minute. There's 9 a program that's essentially dead that used to be called 10 Continuity in Government. I think, not knowing exactly 11 where the bright line is, it would probably be a good idea 12 not to pursue this on the grounds of classification.
13 MEMBER FONTANA: Oh, okay. Well, I was --
[~T
~
14 MR. ROSS: I'm mute. I l
15 MEMBER FONTANA: All right.
l 16 MR. ROSS: I've said all I can say.
17 MEMBER FONTANA: Okay.
18 MR. CONGEL: We respond to plant accidents.
19 When it comes to something like that, it is a different 20 game than if you're talking about a nuclear attack and a 21 power plant problem. I think that's pretty unlikely.
22 MEMBER FONTANA: I know. In states of total 23 confusion, would it work the same way? That would be just 24 a question.
C\ In that kind of thing, what Denny
( j/
25 MR. CONGEL:
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289 1 said is true. There is another group responsible for j
,_s 2 terrorists or wartime things.
( 't
'~'
3 MEMBER FONTANA: That's a different 4 discussion.
5 MR. CONGEL: That's different.
6 MEMBER FONTANA: Okay. I do want to point 7 out, though --
8 MEMBER CATTON: When there's a major 9 earthquake, that accomplishes the same thing, an 8.3 or I
10 something.
11 MR. BARRETT: You know, we do have an active I 1
12 program to look into questions related to any kind of I 13 eventuality that might limit our ability to respond; for (m/ 1 14 instance, an earthquake, a major storm, for instance, in 15 the Northeast that might affect one of our plants as well 16 as take out the capability to activate the center.
17 Perhaps the possibility of some sort of a 18 nuclear attack is not as much a concern as it might have 19 been five or ten years ago, but there are other things 20 that are being considered, such as terrorist attacks, 21 something like the Oklahoma City type of an event.
l 22 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Well, a couple of l
23 winters ago, we had a problem with some rivers knocking 24 out some bridges or closing some bridges in the Midwest.
l}
! ,, 25 And this affected the emergency plan --
l NEAL R. GROSS l COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS l
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i l
290 1 MR. CONGEL: That's right.
,_ 2 MR. BARRETT: Yes.
( )
3 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: -- for some plants.
4 Yes.
l l
5 MR. CONGEL: That's correct. The Missouri j 6 River, Mississippi River problems.
1 7 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes. l 8 MR. BARRETT: So we have a program in place 9 right now where we're examining a lot of these types of 10 scenarios and how we would respond as an agency. And one 11 of the things that we can count on here is that the j l
12 regional offices replicate many of the capabilities we l l
13 have here at the headquarters. 1 O
k_ 14 And so there would be an ability for a 15 regional office, say, for instance, if there were 16 something affecting the entire Northeast perhaps, the 17 Region 4 office to take over and act as if they were the i
18 headquarters office in an extreme emergency. And there's l 19 a whole set of scenarios like that that we are examining 20 and trying to come to grips with.
21 MR. CONGEL: I want to make sure at least one 22 thing is clear, though. When it comes to flooding, other 23 natural events that limit the capability of emergency 24 response, the.t is looked at on a case by case basis --
O Q 25 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Sure.
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1 291 1 MR. CONGEL: -- and coordinated with FEMA.
1
~ 2 And in some cases, for example, when a hurricane is
\ ) !
3 approaching the East Coast, our nuclear plants will shut i 1
1 4 down some number of hours prior to the arrival of the high 5 winds. So we're prepared for those things.
l 6 Rich is identifying the rather hopefully very 7 remote circumstances of terrorism or a very, very bad 8 storm, although I can't imagine a storm getting bad enough !
I 9 around here to really limit our capability, at least 1
10 operate from the response center.
I 11 Our ops officers last year -- we had two 12 back-to-back major snows -- still maintained the viability 13 of the center throughout the storm, including sleeping b
\/ '
14 over here in the building. Also last year when we lost 15 water and the buildings had to be vacated, we provided 16 them with portable toilets in the room so that they could 17 continue to operate there.
l l 18 We have our own power system, diesel, on the 19 roof so if we were isolated without electrical power, we l 20 would run on diesel. So we have prepared for certainly 21 more than the 99 percentile list of events.
22 Something horrible like Oklahoma City, well, 23 we're dealing with that on a contingency basis. That's 24 true. That starts to get into an area that if we have a (n) 25 session, we'll probably have a closed session on it.
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292 1 MEMBER FONTANA: How does data and information c 2 get to the Operations Center? Is that straight phone I !
3 lines or a satellite link or something? i 4 MR. CONGEL: We have dedicated phone lines.
5 Each site has about seven lines that are exclusively ours.
6 So that even if phone lines got saturated like happened at 7 Three Mile Island, it does not affect those lines. So all 8 sites have a minimum seven -- ,
9 MEMBER FONTANA: If a hurricane came in and 1
10 knocked down all the lines -- l l
l 11 MR. CONGEL: We're looking at that now. All l
12 of our regional offices plus here have been issued l 1
13 satellite phones. They run with small dishes to MRSATs.
p
' , i l kl 14 And a number I don't know off the top of my -- l l
15 MR. ROSS: Andrew did take out Turkey Point l 16 phone lines.
17 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes, right.
18 MEMBER FONTANA: Right. i 19 MR. ROSS: It's the local exchange and the 20 power -- these lines, you are going to need some 21 electricity for them. They're not self-powered. If the l
22 local phone company loses electricity, what are you going
! 23 to do?
24 MEMBER FONTANA: And so that's the question
/
(%) ,
25 related to it. How do you know? How do you --
i NEAL R. GROSS
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t
293 1 MR. ROSS: Satellite. It's an --
7g 2 MEMBER FONTANA: It's a satellite link?
3 MR. CONGEL: Satellite phones, yes.
4 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Come back to the cell 5 phones and the guys who had their cars in the parking lot, 6 I guess, at Andrew, wouldn't it?
7 MR. CONGEL: Right, right. In fact, the cell 8 sites were knocked down. And the only one early, early on 9 in the accident, the event that yielded communication is 10 when they had one of the three-watt phones and they went 11 high up in the building structure, went outside, and they 12 were able to reach one of the cell sites that was still 13 operational, not even a local one, real weak signal.
[_,)
\' 14 But now with the satellite phones, they're 15 relatively inexpensive. And they're widely available. We 16 do have a number of them. We have seven or eight 17 available to us that we purchased plus more through the 18 Department of Interior if we need them.
19 MR. ROSS: We're behind.
20 MR. CONGEL: I know.
21 MEMBER FONTANA: We asked a lot of questions.
22 MR. ROSS: That's all right.
23 MR. CONGEL: Now Rich's half will have to take 24 five minutes.
\
(/
(_s 25 MR. ROSS: Fortunately, I'm a fast talker.
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294 1 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: We know all about Rich.
2 MR. BARRETT: Before I get started, maybe I
[-.s)
/
3 could ask: Am I going to be held to five minutes or do I 4 --
5 CHAIRMAN KRESS: No.
6 VICE CRAIRMAN SEALE: No. You can have a few 7 more.
8 MR. BARRETT: We need more than that.
9 CHAIRMAN KRESS: We're got a little bit of 10 slack time.
11 MR. BARRETT: Okay. Fine. Well, I will try 12 to be efficient here by skipping over some of the slides.
13 I don't think we need to go through every one of them. In r~
\- 14 fact, it's my considered opinion that I would definitely 15 put you to sleep if we did.
16 The next five or six slides in your packet i
17 relate to the specific duties associated with the various 18 teams we assemble in the Ops Center once we have j l
19 activated. And, as I said, I don't plan to go through !
20 every one of them, but if you just look at that schematic 21 diagram that I have in there of the Ops Center and the way 22 that it's laid out, I'd like to just use that and talk 23 from that and talk a little bit about the various teams 1
24 that are assembled, their makeup, and their
( .,
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295 )
1 available to them because it's kind of interesting how 2 this all works.
7 l I
3 At the very center of the Ops Center is the i 4 executive team. This is typically the Chairman or her 5 designee along with the very top managers of the agency, 6 the Executive Director for Operations or his deputy, the i
7 office directors or their deputies. And the 8 responsibility of this group is to make any substantive 1
1 9 decision that affects the NRC's response. l I
10 And that, as Frank pointed out, may have to do ]
11 with talking to the licensee about the way in which 12 they're managing their response, talking to the state 13 about protective actions, helping to arrange for a federal n l K._) 14 response from DOE, FEMA, or wherever it might be needed.
15 Releasing information to the public through 16 press releases all have to be approved by the executive 17 team. Status summaries that we put out to inform other 18 responders have to be reviewed by the executive team.
19 They're very busy people. So while many of 20 them, of course, are the most experienced people in the 21 agency here and know a great deal about reactors and 22 accidents and what have you, they can't sit around trying i
l 23 to figure out what this accident is about. So we provide 24 them with technical teams who take the basic information O
( ,) 25 and sift it down to the very bare essential facts and l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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296 1 present it to the executive team in an ordered fashion.
7_
2 For instance, we have the reactor safety team, 3 which is a group of experts in the reactor, the reactor 4 systems, containment, severe accident phenomenology, 1
5 accident scenarios, PRA, operations, procedures. And 6 that's a group of people who can make an assessment of the I 7 severity of the accident.
8 Is there a release in progress? Is core 9 damage in progress? Is core damage imminent? How bad is l
10 the configuration of the plant? Has it been damaged or '
11 compromised? What's the prognosis? How big a release?
12 From where? How soon? These are the top-level questions 13 that this reactor safety team is trained to do and trained
/~'%
t 4 l
k/ 14 to do in a timely fashion.
15 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Do they have a database on 16 all the site-specific parameters, the population and the 17 routes and --
i 18 MR. BARRETT: Let me hold off that question I
19 until I talk about the protective measures team because 20 that's more relevant to the protective measures team.
21 We have a lot of information here in the 22 Operations Center. We have an extensive library ranging 23 from the FSARs, plant information books, site maps, all 24 sorts of information right down to the technical
/^N
( ,) 25 specifications. But we rarely get involved in that level NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., H W.
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l 297 I l
1 of detail in doing these assessments. !
,- 2 What they will do, their main roles, I will
(- / 3 say, are really twofold. In the interest of brevity here, I
4 their first important role is to make sure that the l
5 protective measures team understands the severity of the I l
6 accident and the prognosis for a release. That's really, 7 I would say, the number one role. :
8 The number two role is to make sure the 9 executive team has the same level of information. Now, 10 there are other roles that they play, but I would say 11 those are the two main roles.
12 This team gets two types of information from 13 the site. One is a continuous voice link called the ENS r~w)
(
k/ link, which has a continuous voice link to someone in the 14 15 emergency operations facility or in the technical support 16 center, wherever the accident is being managed by the 17 licensee. We can ask them questions about what equipment 18 is operational, what equipment is not.
19 Also, they have available to them the 20 emergency response data system, which is a direct link to 21 the plant computer. And from that we can get as many as 22 100 parameters from the plant ranging from pressures, l
l 23 temperatures, levels, what have you, anything that's being 24 monitored by the plant computer as well as meteorological (O,/ 25 data that can be used by the protective measures team.
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298 1 The reactor safety team is trained to do their 2 assessments with or without the emergency response data
(_
l 3 system because it's a system that may or may not be 4 available for various reasonr. during an acci dent. That's 5 the reactor safety team.
6 Now, we also have a protective measures team, I
7 which is a group of people who have very different !
l 8 backgrounds. And their job is to make an assessment of i I
9 what is the prognosis for the doses that might be 10 experienced given the conditions of the plant that have 11 been told to them by the reactor safety team and then what 12 would be reasonable protective actions that might be taken l
13 off site. So we may an independent assessment of what I
/,_s\ l
\' #'
14 kind of protective actions might be reasonable.
I 15 And they're in continuous communication with l 16 another group of people at the site, which we call the 17 health physics network. And those are the people who are 18 making decisions about what protective action 19 recommendations they will be making to the state. So 20 we're talking to them.
21 You know, Frank, you asked earlier about what 22 would we do if there was a complete disconnect about 23 protective action recommendations. Our people in the 24 protective action team are talking to their people. And b
\_,/ 25 we're comparing our dose assessments. We're comparing our NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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299 1 interpretation of the emergency plan. And there's a l
2 continuous discussion going on here.
\7l'~
3 Now, if they can't come to a consensus, then 4 it gets bumped up to the executive team. And these people 5 are going to have a discussion with the emergency director 6 at the site.
l 7 MEMBER POWERS: Rich, when they --
8 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Go ahead, Dana, i
9 MEMBER POWERS: When you're trying to make l 1
10 dose assessments and that sort of thing, -- let's say 11 you've got a fairly serious accident going on -- what kind 12 of a computational tool are they using? l 13 MR. BARRETT: We're using a tool called f%
' -) 14 RASCAL. And it's a fairly -- I wouldn't say it's a real 15 complex tool. It's one that uses fairly simple 16 approximations.
17 In general when we run the tool, we use 18 assumptions about the scenario that tend to be on the 19 conservative side. For instance, we might not take full 20 advantage of some filtering that's available because we 21 think, well, then maybe we'll bypass that filter. So I 22 think as these tools go, it's a relatively crude tool.
23 CHAIRMAN KRESS: That's the reactor safety 24 team's tool?
(O) 25 MR. BARRETT: No. That's the protective NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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300 1 measures team tool.
,, 2 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Who determines the source
(' ') 3 term to use?
1 l
4 MR. BARRETT: The protective measures team has 5 on it experts who know about source terms in containment.
6 They know about meteorology. They know about transport of 7 fission products. Also, they have experts on the details I
8 of the emergency plan. That's a completely different 9 group of experts. And they run the RASCAL code.
l 10 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Okay. I was guessing the i 11 reactor safety team would give them a source term. I must l 1
12 be wrong there.
13 MR. CONGEL: Let me add just a little bit
[~h i k_) 14 because Rich's other hat during exercises and if an event l
15 takes place is to is direct the reactor safety team. I 16 direct the protective measures team.
17 I would modify a little what he said. I don't 18 think the calculation for dose is exactly crude. I would l
l 19 probably have used a different word. But it clearly is an 20 approximation.
21 The people on my staff take the knowledge they l l 22 have of the reactor condition, the direction it's going.
l 23 And what I direct them to do in any case is to give me a 24 series of off-site dose potentials based on what would l
r~N i
( ,) 25 happen in the near future, the more distance future so NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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301 1 that we can assess how quickly off-site actions in terms
,s 2 of evacuation, for example, or taking children out of {
l' ')
3 school, sending them home should be done.
l l
4 So the computer code that we call RASCAL 5 that's used for this, in all seriousness, is actually 6 relatively sophisticated. It does have more capability 7 for fine-tuning than most of the time the calculation l
8 allows, namely we don't know enough with a too significant '
9 figure dose truly, but what we're really using it for is a 10 ballpark estimate so we can make timely recommendations on 11 how to protect the public.
12 If something is going to happen right away, 13 then keep the people in place until the plume passes. If
('h, i k-sl 14 we have three hours, send the kids home. If we have an i 15 hour1.736111e-4 days <br />0.00417 hours <br />2.480159e-5 weeks <br />5.7075e-6 months <br /> and a half, send the children to some congregate care j l
16 center and meet their parents there.
17 CHAIRMAN KRESS: What was the name of that 18 code again?
19 MR. CONGEL: RASCAL, R-A-S-C-A-L.
20 CHAIRMAN KRESS: And it's fast-running 21 compared to something like a MAACS and --
22 MR. CONGEL: Oh, absolutely, yes.
23 CHAIRMAN KRESS: So you could make a lot of --
24 MR. CONGEL: We run typically three to six Ch
( ,) 25 different possibilities. And it has plotting capability.
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302 1 The capability is a video display. When I go to brief the 7s
\
2 executive team, I can have the display called up on one of
- 3 the monitors. I can talk from it. We also, like I said, 4 feed --
5 MEMBER POWERS: Let me ask you a question 6 about it.
7 MR. CONGEL: Sure.
8 MEMBER POWERS: Most of these codes use 9 something like a Gaussian plume-type model. Every time 10 that I have seen some attempt to compare a Gaussian plume 11 model to some experimental data, I haven't even seen a 12 qualitatively correct trend.
13 MR. CONGEL: First of all, we have used two.
A t i
< 14 We've got at least two models that we can access. That's 15 the puff as well as the Gaussian. And depending on 16 whether we're talking about a steady state or a puff 17 release, we'll run them.
18 And, actually, some of the tests that I have 19 seen, there is a correlation between what we calculate and 20 what actually has been measured. And, in fact, the degree 21 of confidence that I have now with the algorithms that we 22 have is that we can actually take a field measurement and 23 come up with a rough approximation of what the source term 24 may be from it.
p)
(, 25 But, remember, I'm not doing this to come up NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISMND AW. N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
303 J
1 with an overall assessment of what the off-site impact is.
l s 2 I'm using it as a tool to determine appropriate protective 3 action in the short term.
4 MEMBER POWERS: Well, that's why I'm concerned i i
5 that there's not even a qualitative trend in the things l
6 I've seen. I mean, if it's not even qualitatively I 7 l correct, then how can you plan your actions? !
I 8 MR. CONGEL: No. I mean, if I grant you that !
9 it's not qualitatively correct, you're right. But that's 10 not the case. Like I said, we have a program underway, j l
11 even right now, to upgrade the program. And that's why we 12 have -- !
l i
13 MEMBER POWERS: Do you have something that's
/ N, 14 equivalent to a validation statement for this code?
15 MR. CONGEL: Not yet. It is part of the 16 effort that we have ongoing now. We have -- I don't want ;
l 17 to speak out of turn because I don't know the detail yet, i
18 but that is part of the ongoing effort we have right now.
19 One of the people that is on the contractor 20 team is from Hanford. It's one of the meteorology guys.
l 21 And he's been involved even with the dose reconstruction 22 effort.
23 MEMBER POWERS: I think there's an effort 24 going on that the agency is part of in conjunction with l
a 4
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304 1 in the more sophisticated dispersal codes. ;
I
-s 2 MR. ROSS: That's true. There is.
3 MEMBER POWERS: And I wonder: Do we know what l
4 the results are from that? ;
1 5 MR. ROSS: No, In the first place, you asked 6 about computation time. I think we're talking about one 7 or two seconds for RASCAL, a blink of the eye. And the 8 sophistication in things like CRAC are so much that it i
9 wouldn't be useful for this PMT. l 10 MEMBER POWERS: But, Denny, let's face it.
i 11 You could calculate it in one nanosecond. If it's 12 qualitatively incorrect, that's not a useful --
13 MR. ROSS: Well, I hate to use the old saw A
- 14 close enough for government work, but --
15 MEMBER POWERS: I don't know what "close j 1
16 enough for government work" means in this case, to be 17 perfectly honest with you. The things I've seen --
18 MR. BARRETT: Well, let me give you a 19 calibration.
20 MEMBER POWERS: The things I have seen are 21 comparisons to Gaussian plume codes, in which, like I say, 22 it's not even qualitatively correct in the sense that you l
l 23 see areas getting dosed that the code predicts are not 24 being dosed.
O 25 MR. ROSS: But for this purpose, would you not
( ,/
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305 1 be more interested in center line dose anyway so your
,_ 2 cross-dispersion coefficients are less interested because
/ \
\ )
3 you're looking for things like: How bad can it get on the 4 center line because that may be what I'm basing my action 5 on? I'm going to take a protective action --
6 MEMBER POWERS: It would stun me if the center 7 line were the only thing that you were interested in. If 8 I told you -- the things I've seen in comparison, I do 9 wish I had a viewgraph here because I think that would 10 make it clearer here are experiments in which you see 11 largely a uniform dispersal where the code is predicting a l l
12 Gaussian plume line. I 13 So that means that there are areas that the
/"N
%-) 14 code is saying are completely free of any dose activity.
15 The experiment is saying these places are getting dosed.
16 MR. BARRETT: But, Dana, I think to put this i
17 into perspective, I don't think we're trying to get that 18 level. I know we're not trying to get that level of a 19 result.
20 For instance, I can tell you if all our 21 computers went down and we didn't have RASCAL and I went 22 in to talk to the protective measures team and I told them 23 that the core damage was in progress and the containment 24 was closed, he would say, "Well, then we would recommend
,a
() 25 evacuation out to two miles in all direct. ions" probably.
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306 1 I can guess that's what he would say.
2 In other words, we're not counting on this as 7_
1
() 3 a fine-tuned code. We're counting on it as -- maybe I'm 4 pushing it too far to say an illustrative tool, but it's a 5 tool that starts with a very crude understanding of what's 1
6 going on in the reac r, typically a fair bit of 7 uncertainty about where the release point might be or when 8 it might be, and the magnitude of the release. We i
o sometimes have to made crude assumptions about filtering ,
l 19 or scrubbing or that sort of thing.
11 So we're starting out with a great deal of 12 ,
unknown. And so we would not pretend to know where the 13 source term might be high or where the doses might be high
,r 3 kl s 14 and where they might be low.
15 MEMBER POWERS: I grant you that the way you l 16 use it determines a lot on how -- that's why I was asking I 17 about the equivalent of a validation statement, which 18 would say, "Look, here's how I'm going to use it. Here's 19 how accurately you have to validate it. And here's how I 20 compare" to whatever I compare to.
21 In your case it might not surprise me if you 22 were to compare RASCAL to a more sophisticated code, l
l 23 rather than to experiments, just because of the nature of 24 things. But somewhere you would trace back to some
(~h
( ,) 25 experimental verification.
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1 307 1 And it absolutely could be that you use it in n 2 su& a qualitative sense or a go/no go sort of sense that j i 3 the level of quantitative precision you need is different 4 than would be, say, an aerosol physicist would use things.
5 MR. CONGEL: Absolutely.
6 MR. BARRETT: Right.
7 MEMBER POWERS: That's why I'm asking for 8 something like a verification statement.
9 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: You don't have to walk 10 from the Metro station over here three times to realize 11 that the local buildings can completely destroy anything 12 that ever started out to look like a Gaussian plume 13 calculation.
[s
% 14 MR. CONGEL: Absolutely.
15 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: The real question, I 16 would imagine, is: What kinds of dosimetry on-the-ground 17 input do you have to the information that's available to 18 you in a particular -- I mean, what would you expect to 19 have in the event of an event?
20 MR. BARRETT: I'll let Frank talk about that.
21 It's his area.
22 MR. CONGEL: We have built into the code 23 building wake effects or even --
24 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: No, no, no, no. You
/"N bl 25 don't understand my question.
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308
.1 MR. ROSS: Dosimetry, Frank.
73 2 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: What kind of dosimetry
~'
3 do you expect to have from the site as to actually 4 observed levels?
5 MR. CONGEL: I did misunderstand.
6 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: And then downwind, what 7 kind of input do you expect to have from your monitoring 8 equipment?-
9 MR. CONGEL: First of all, we try to plan on 10 the worst case.
11 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes.
12 MR. CONGEL: But there is a variation from 13 site to site where there are some sites that even have an
(_,\
( ') 14 array, an active array, of detectors off site. All sites 15 have a passive array of TLDs.
16 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes, sure.
17 MR. CONGEL: They obviously have to be pulled.
18 All sites, of course, have monitored release paths if that 19 happens to be the release path in an accident. And they 20 all have updated monitors so that they can handle 21 accident-type flows.
22 But when it comes to unknowns like source l
l 23 terms or sources from breaks, then we have to resort to 24 what we understand to be the conditions that we're dealing t
/~N t
(_/ 25 with in the reactor.
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l 309 l
l l l 1 I do not plan on having anything for off-site I l
,_ 2 dosimetry or close-in dosimetry until after teams are 3 dispatched to actually provide that function.
4 MR. ROSS: In any event, you're not going to l 5 have fixed station electronically empowered remote l
6 instruments? There's not going to --
l 7 MR. CONGEL: You don't have that. And I l 8 mentioned earlier during my talk that depending upon how 9 the accident unfolds and the timing, we would have 10 available to us the DOE capability of the flybys.
11 But early on, especially when you want to make 12 the decisions about protective actions, we have to go with 13 what we understand to be the reactor condition, the t
(~N k- 14 direction it's going, and an overall assessment of the 15 conditions that exist off site: middle of the night, 16 storm, rain, snow, beautiful day, schools occupied, people 17 at work, vacation. All of that has to be folded in and 18 the judgments made about the appropriate action.
19 And in terms of the dosimetry and the model 20 that we use, considering the speed with which the l
21 calculation is done, I have a degree of confidence that it 22 will provide me with the information I need to have to 23 hypothesize scenarios given what I know about the reactor 24 and, therefore, frame one of the bases for the 4
p)
( 25 decision-making.
l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS l
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^
310 1 MR. ROSS: Frank, when I close this, we'll 2 make you an offer. I think we can show that the code, by f, ,3
\# 3 the way, which does take into account some of the source 4 term insights from NUREG-1150, I think we can certainly 5 show that RASCAL is adequate for the purpose to which we 6 use it.
7 But if you'd like to get a supplemental 8 response at a later time comparing the best you can 9 compare CRAC versus RASCAL, we'd be glad to do it.
10 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Yes, we'd like that.
11 MR. ROSS: It's no problem.
12 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Can you tell me whether 13 RASCAL just has a simple look-up table of Kai over q's?
(~
k~/# 14 Is that how it works?
15 MR. CONGEL: No, no.
16 CHAIRMAN KRESS: It's not?
17 MR. CONGEL: It has the puff model built.
18 CHAIRMAN KRESS: It has the model?
19 MR. CONGEL: Yes, sir.
20 CHAIRMAN KRESS: It calculates kai over q, 21 then?
22 MR. CONGEL: Yes.
23 MR. ROSS: You could do a hand collocation, 24 which I was doing here while Frank was talking. We expect n
(_) 25 most of the PMT people, you give them a distance and a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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311 1 pascal weather condition. And they'll give you a dose
__ 2 calculation by hand.
t 3 MR. CONGEL: I can guarantee you that it 4 provides, RASCAL provides, at least a semi-quantitative 5 relationship between what we know about the source term 6 and reactor conditions and potential doses off site.
7 The comparisons that we have in any case are 8 always referred to the EPA protective action guides, which 9 stipulate what actions, like sheltering or evacuation, 10 should be considered. And those are ranges, 100 to 11 500-millirem accumulated dose.
12 I look at the reactor, the reaction that's 13 going, dual calculation close in. I can see if I'm A l
\
s/ 14 dealing in the same order of magnitude.
15 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Those were developed in the 16 early '70s. Have they been reviewed?
17 MR. CONGEL: No. They were. updated --
18 CHAIRMAN KRESS: They have been updated since?
19 MR. CONGEL: Oh, yes. What was the date, 20 Rosemary? '93 for the EPA PAG. The newest guidebook was 21 three years or so ago. Do you remember?
22 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Okay. I guess we haven't 23 looked at the new ones yet.
24 MR. CONGEL: You don't remember? Okay. Well, l
/~
( ,N/ 25 I saw Rosemary back there. I thought maybe she would NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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312 1 remember better than me. But no. They were updated 7- 2 relatively recently, yes.
U 3 MEMBER FONTANA: In practice, how does this 4 work? Does the reactor safety team say, "Well, there's an 5 accident" and you tell the protective measures team what 6 the source term might be?
7 But then when it actually starts happening, 8 you've got some measurements. And you can run it into 9 RASCAL and get an idea of what actually is coming out, 10 feed back to your actions?
11 MR. BARRETT: Yes. We can get doses within 12 the plant and dose rates and that sort of thing, yes, and 13 give it to them as it becomes available from the in-plant fm k)'- 14 monitors. And they can update it based on that. I 15 MR. CONGEL: There are a number of different i 16 ways in which we do it. We try to cross-compare as many 17 sources of information as we can to get as firm a grip on ;
i 18 what actually is happening.
19 MEMBER FONTANA: Once you start measuring 20 things in the outside, you can throw this back into RASCAL 21 and get an idea --
22 MR. CONGEL: Yes.
l .
l l l 23 MEMBER FONTANA: -- of what the distribution 24 is in other places, --
f
(_,/ 25 MR. CONGEL: Right.
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1 313 l
1 MEMBER FONTANA: -- other than where you I
,ex 2 measure it.
( ) l N/ j 3 MR. CONGEL: That's true. But you also know l 4 as a result of experience both with drills and reality 5 that there is no one source of information that you can 6 totally depend on. So, even when someone says they have 1 7 an off-site measurement, we've had people mix counts per 8 minute with microcuries per cc and dose rate.
9 So all of this keeps coming in typically at a 10 rapid pace. And it's important to keep it sorted. But 11 there is no single source of information that's 100 1
12 percent reliable.
l 13 MR. BARRETT: There may also be a radiation l
/_ s
\'-) 14 measurement someplace based on an early release or an 15 early situation with regard to a small amount of core ;
1 16 damage.
17 But we'll be making a protective action 18 recommendation that would be based on our assessment that 19 the thing could get much worse and, therefore, the 20 readings later could be much worse.
21 MEMBER FONTANA: Yes.
22 MR. BARRETT: Let me very rapidly conclude 23 this thing because we're way over our time.
24 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Yes.
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314 1 other team, which is our liaison team. The liaison team
_ 2 is basically the output from the Operations Center. These
( s
/
- 3 are the people who have expertise and connections with the 1
4 White House; the congressional delegations; very 5 importantly, the other federal agencies; people who have 6 ongoing relationships with all of the states that are 7 involved with nuclear facilities; as well as the 8 international community and the press. So the liaison 9 team is an area where a lot of different people are doing 10 some very important things in terms of keeping us in 11 contact with the outside world.
12 Let me just very briefly tell you about the 13 other side of this program. We have told you how we would
(%
k- I 14 respond in an emergency, but I just want to quickly run 15 through and tell you that what we do on a day-to-day basis 16 which allows us to be prepared, not just us, but the 17 entire agency, to be prepared, to respond to an emergency.
18 Some of the big ticket. items. We have a lot 19 of facilities and equipment here. We have the Operations 20 Center here at headquarters. We also have regional 21 incident response centers.
22 One of our most important facilities and 23 equipment items here is the telecommunications. Without 24 phones, we are really out of business in a way. We need 25 smart people and telephones. Those are our two most NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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l 315 l l
1 important items.
l
,- 2 We're currently going through an assessment of '
3 the reliability of our phone system, partly because of the 4 vulnerabilities that were mentioned earlier, the 5 possibility of losing the land lines due to conditions 1 6 about the plant, but also there's a changing 7 telecommunications environment that we're trying to i
8 respond to. I 9 We maintain assessment codes and methods, and l 1
10 we have had a lot of discussion about that. In addition, j 11 a lot of what we do relates to the people around the 12 agency who help us respond to accidents.
13 We have emergency responders here at ks 14 headquarters and the regions. And, of course, the 15 resident inspectors also have a big role in all of this.
16 So we spend a lot of effort msking sure that those teams I l
17 are staffed with the very best possible people we can find j 18 anywhere in the agency with the expertise we need. And we 19 spend a lot of effort on training.
20 One of the things, as Frank pointed out 21 earlier, one of the things that we're very proud of 22 recently is that we've gotten more heavily into what we 23 call scenario-based training, where we actually walk you 24 through an accident, a simulated accident, and tell you
('~%
(_) 25 what your responsibilities are. And, as Frank pointed out NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
316 1 earlier, that might be something you'd very much like to
,_s 2 do if you come up to visit with us one of these days.
I i V 3 We have a full schedule of exercises. And we 4 try to exercise all of our capabilities. When we have a 5 full-scale exercise, you'll see upwards of 85 people in 6 the Operations Center and a site team headed for the site 7 and some people in the regional center as well.
8 We also have limited participation exercises.
9 I'd like to point out in passing that we are doing a lot 10 now with our new responsibilities for gaseous diffusion 11 plants. We had a tabletop type of exercise last month, 12 and we're planning to do an exercise in July, I believe it 13 is, to begin to understand those new responsibilities.
( )
\/ 14 We do a lot with regard to --
15 CHAIRMAN KRESS: What are you dealing with 16 there, UF-6?
17 MR. BARRETT: Well, I think yes, exactly. You 18 have both the chemical hazard as well as the radiological 19 hazard from the uranium-234, 235.
20 MEMBER POWERS: There's also an interest in 21 criticality accident scenarios in the --
22 CHAIRMAN KRESS: You could get some fission.
23 MEMBER POWERS: And these criticality
( 24 incidents are always interesting because they can be s) s 25 devastating at the local area. It's a little question on NEAL R. GROSS l COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234 4433
317 1 whether the public is ever threatened by them, but they s 2 are certainly interesting accident scenarios.
( )
t
(_/
i 3 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Yes. I would be very 4 skeptical of any public hazard due --
5 MEMBER POWERS: It would certainly seem 6 surprising, wouldn't it?
7 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Yes.
8 MEMBER POWERS: But it causes quite a lot of 9 stir in the Rocky Flats area over criticality incidents in 10 public perception, though, in fact, I think you could do 11 relatively simple back-of-the-envelope calculations and 12 show that the worst criticality accident that could have 13 ever happened would have never influenced the public. But k 14 it captures the public mind.
15 CHAIRMAN KRESS: I was guessing UF-6 would be 16 a toxic hazard. And I was wondering if they dealt with it 17 in that sense, rather than radioactive problems.
18 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: A criticality accident 19 is like a flashbulb in the basement.
20 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Yes, yes.
21 MR. BARRETT: And this is not entirely new to 22 us. We have had the other fuel cycle facilities to deal 23 with, and we have had incidents at those facilities. So 24 it's not an entirely new subject.
(,,)
(
25 We spend a lot of time on what I call program NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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318 1 development, which is, again, looking at the way in which gx 2 we do business. We're constantly trying to improve it.
3 One of the things we recently did was we 4 changed in our standby mode -- Frank talked about it 5 earlier. We recently changed it from a situation where 6 the region would be in the lead during standby to where 7 headquarters is in the lead. And the advantage of that is 8 that it frees the region up to begin to think about 9 getting to the site if that becomes necessary later on.
10 Another thing we did recently was we did a 11 full demonstration of the press ce'nter here at 12 headquarters last December. And we had a press corps here 13 from American University School of Journalism. It really
{_s) 14 was very interesting.
15 CHAIRMAN KRESS: I'll bet that was 16 interesting.
17 MR. BARRETT: That was very interesting. We 18 learned a lot from that experience.
19 And, finally, I think perhaps one of the most 20 important and resource-intensive activities we have is all 21 of the coordination we do to make sure that when an i
22 accident happens, if an accident happens, we know the 23 people at the state level, the federal level, the 24 international level, and we know how to deal with the ;
O.
k) 25 Congress, with the other federal agencies.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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319 1 So we spend an awful lot of time sending
- 2 people out to do training sessions, what we call our state (s) 3 outreach program, very, very successful program. And the 4 states are very happy with it. We have a big effort 5 dealing with an entire alphabet soup here of federal 6 agencies that have more or less of a role in emergency 7 response.
8 One of the big milestones recently was 9 publication of the federal radiological emergency response 10 plan, which tells us how the various agencies will come 11 together to respond to various accidents depending on 12 whether it's a nuclear reactor or an unidentified source 13 or perhaps something involved with a --
m I]
\~ 14 MR. CONGEL: A satellite.
15 MR. BARRETT: A satellite, exactly.
16 So these are some activities we have going on.
17 And, of course, we're providing a lot of assistance 18 overseas, some of it through the IAEA to some of the 19 countries that are former Soviet Union countries and 20 through the Lisbon initiative to Russia and the Ukraine.
21 So it's a very full program that we have ongoing. And 22 we're constantly trying to improve our capabilities.
23 So I think we've overstayed our welcome.
24 CHAIRMAN KRESS: No, no. It's very A
() 25 interesting.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N W.
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320 1 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: It's very interesting.
2 Does anybody ever ask you about potassium 1 a 3 iodide?
4 MR. BARRETT: Yes, people ask us about 5 potassium iodide. And I have sitting right next to me one 6 of the world's experts on what to do about potassium 7 iodide.
8 MR. ROSS: He'll answer all of your questions.
9 MR. CONGEL: Isn't it time? )
l l
l 10 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Can you give us the l l
11 short version?
12 MR. CONGEL: You know, there are several 13 levels of activity going on in reevaluating a policy
('~T, V 14 position on stockpiling and including KI as one of the 15 accident mitigation techniques. There is a response to a 16 rulemaking petition that was submitted to the NRC.
17 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Was that from Ohio?
18 MR. CONGEL: No, no. It was an individual who 19 submitted a reconsideration of the present KI policy. As 20 you know, the present KI policy is that the federal 21 government does not recommend stockpiling or use for a 22 responses to a reactor, but if the states choose to do so, 23 it's their call.
24 That policy has been called into question by a
()
,m 25 petition to have a rulemaking, change it to require the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W-(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
l 321 l 1 stockpiling and use of KI in the event of a reactor l 1
l
,s 2 emergency. That's underway. )
( \
\"J 1 3 Also, I am the NRC representative on the l l
4 Federal Radiological Protection Coordinating Committee. l i
5 That committee is also reconsidering the existing federal I 6 policy on KI. That policy is identical to the one that 7 the NRC has. ,
l 8 The committee had appointed a subcommittee l 9 that met with the public last June to hear arguments pro 10 and con to changing the policy. The subcommittee reported 11 to the full committee a few weeks ago.
12 We are in the process of developing our agency 13 recommendations to be included in the Federal Register
,m
\_/ 14 notice outlining this coordinating committee's position.
15 It has not been fully stated yet.
16 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Thank you. I won't ask you 17 what the position is.
18 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: I think some of us might 19 be interested to know what it is when it becomes available 20 for publication.
21 MR. CONGEL: Okay.
22 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Okay. Any other 23 questions from anyone? Any other statements that you 24 gentlemen would like to make?
( ,/ 25 MR. CONGEL: No. We thank you for your --
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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322 1 MR. BARRETT: Thank you very much.
2 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Does anybody else have
/ms V 3 any comments or questions to make?
4 MEMBER CATTON: Did you know that next Sunday 5 is Immaculate Conception Day in Spain?
6 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Could you give us the 7 relevance of that?
8 MEMBER CATTON: I couldn't think of anything 9 else to say.
10 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: I'm sure it will be a 11 festive occasion.
12 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Thank you.
13 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Thank you very much for f%
14 your --
15 CHAIRMAN KRESS: Thank you, gentlemen. It was 16 a very good presentation.
17 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: And I like that coat.
18 MEMBER FONTANA: Ivan's statement is the 19 verbal equivalent of this coat.
20 (Laughter.)
21 CHAIRMAN KRESS: It wakes you up, doesn't it?
22 MEMBER CATTON: It's actually in Portugal as 23 well.
24 VICE CHAIRMAN SEALE: Okay. Fine. We will be l' %
() 25 back at 3:15.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
323 1 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter went off the 2 record at 3:07 p.m.)
g]
'sj 3
4 i
5 6
i 7
8 9
10 11 12 13
,A
'sd' 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 j 21 22 23 24 A
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
O CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: 437TH ACRS i
Docket Number: N/A Place of Proceeding: ROCKVILLE, MARYIAND i
were held as herein appears, and that this ir the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to !
O typewriting by me or under the direction of the court t
reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings. !
/ 12n CORBETT RINER ' ;
Official Reporter Neal F,. Gross and Co., Inc.
i I
O
1 4
i INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT BY THE ACRS CHAIRMAN
' 437TH ACRS MEETING, DECEMBER 5-7, 1996 THE MEETING WILL NOW COME TO ORDER. THIS IS THE SECOND DAY OF THE 437TH MEETING OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR
- SAFEGUARDS. DURING TODAY'S MEETING, THE COMMITTEE WILL CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING
(1) FUTURE ACRS ACTIVITIES (2) REPORT OF THE PLANNING AND PROCEDURES SUBCOMMITTEE 1
(3) NRC EMERGENCY RESPONSE PROGRAM (4) RECONCILIATION OF ACRS COMMENTS AND RECOMMENDATIONS (5) ELECTION OF OFFICERS FOR CY 1997 (6) PROPOSED ACRS REPORTS IN ADDITION, THE COMMITTEE WILL MEET WITH THE NRC COMMISSIONERS BETWEEN 9:30 A.M. AND 11:00 A.M. IN THE COMMISSIONERS' CONFERENCE ROOM TO DISCUSS ITEMS OF MUTUAL INTEREST..
o
~
A PORTION OF TODAY'S MEETING MAY BE CLOSED TO DISCUSS ORGANIZATIONAL AND PERSONNEL MATTERS THAT RELATE SOLELY TO THE INTERNAL PERSONNEL RULES AND PRACTICES OF THIS ADVISORY l COMMITTEE, AND MATTERS THE RELEASE OF WHICH WOULD CONSTITUTE A l
CLEARLY UNWARRANTED INVASION OF PERSONAL PRIVACY.
THIS MEETING IS BEING CONDUCTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE i PROVISIONS OF THE FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE ACT.
MR. SAM DURAISWAMY IS THE DESIGNATED FEDERAL OFFICIAL FOR THE INITIAL PORTION OF THE MEETING.
1 WE HAVE RECEIVED NO WRITTEN STATEMENTS OR REQUESTS FOR TIME TO MAKE ORAL STATEMENTS FROM MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC REGARDING TODAY'S SESSIONS. A TRANSCRIPT OF PORTIONS OF THE MEETING IS BEING KEPT, AND IT IS REQUESTED THAT THE SPEAKERS USE ONE OF THE MICROPHONES, IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AND SPEAK WITH SUFFICIENT CLARITY AND VOLUME SO THAT THEY CAN BE READILY HEARD.
p nea n>4
' +4 s a IL ,a8 E.
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'}
NRC INCIDENT RESPONSE PROGRAM ACRS BRIEFING December 6,1996 l s
F. J. Congel R. J. Barrett l
l
\
o .
o o .
-l .
i OUTLINE
- Response Roles: Licensee / State / NRC
- NRC Response Functions and Capabilities e NRC incident Response Program e Recent initiatives :
i i
I I
i i
~
O O O .:-
i ROLES i LICENSEE The licensee has the immediate, and primary continuing, i responsibility for limiting the consequences of an incident. '
Recommends protective actions to state or local authorities. ,
STATE State and local authorities have the ultimate responsibility for ensuring the protection of the public from offsite ;
consequences of an incident.
i NRC NRC issues licenses for use of nuclear material. During an incident, NRC takes the lead in coordinating Federal technical oversight and support.
e t
o o o'l NRC ROLE e Monitors the situation to understand the problem and the licensee's response.
! e Monitors licensee recommendations to ensure that appropriate protective actions are provided to state or local authorities.
4 e Provides technical or logistic support to the licensee and to state or local authorities, as requested.
e Works with other Federal agencies to ensure that Federal technical activities are helpful and coordinated.
e Takes Federal lead in providing technical information to.
Federal agencies -
Congress and White House State and local -
Public International 1
o o o~! .
NRC EMERGENCY RESPONSE FUNCTIONS e Receive Emergency Notifications e Make a Timely Decision on NRC Response
- Activate the NRC Operations Center e Conduct Independent Technical Assessments e Coordinate Federal Response e Serve as a Reliable Source of Public Information ;
e Dispatch a Regional Team to the Site !
i i
l i
o .
O o Event Assessment and Initial Response Decision-NIaking Incoming Initial Response Information Assessment Decision Licensee EO ET Agency Other > HOO RDO ,
RA I
Resident IAT- ---
RCT On-Cali Inspector I (Sareguards) (Monitor) i I
5--AEOD (Monitor)
AEOD- Duty AEOD Manager EO- NRR Emergency Officer ET - Executive Team Member HOO- Headquarters Operations Officer IAT- Information Assessment Team Member RA- Regional Administrator p r'T .
_ R esnnnse. Coordinat{on Team Member
~
LICENSEE CLASSIFICATION OF EMERGENCY i
Unusual Event -
Events indicate a. potential degradation of the level of safety of plant No releases of radioactivity requiring offsite response or monitoring are expected i
t Alert -
Actual or potential substantial degradation of plant safety Any releases of radioactivity are expected to be small fractions of EPA protective action guideline exposure levels Site Area Emergency - Actual or likely major failures of plant functions needed for protection of the public.
Releases not expected to exceed EPA guidelines near site boundary General Emergency -
Actual or imminent substantial core degradation or melting with potential for loss of containment integrity Releases expected to exceed EPA guidelines for more than immediate site area i
O O O I
NRC RESPONSE MODES
- NORMAL Monitor with Small Staff (Often Only the Regional Office and the Headquarters Operations Officer) e STANDBY Headquarters Leads, Region Prepares to Go to Site and Supports Headquarters, if Possible
- INITIAL Headquarters Leads While Region Team Travels ACTIVATION to Site; Full Staffing at Headquarters Operations
! Center, Led by a Commissioner o EXPANDED Site Team Leads, Headquarters Supports; ACTIVATION Most Authority Delegated to Site Team Leader i
e DEACTIVATION No Further Risk From Plant; Recovery Plan Implemented l i t
~. _ - ..- - - - -.-. _..._-..-....-.-.-
6 , O O ,
HEADQUARTERS OPERATIONS OFFICERS
- Round-the-Clock Telephone Coverage e Engineers Capable of Recognizing and Communicating Problems and Emergencies to Management
- Qualification Program
~
e Over 1500 Reports Annually i
e Receive Allegations During Off Hours (1/800 695-7403) ,
e Prepare INES Reports
O O O NRC RESPCNSE FREQUEXCY VS EMERGENCY CLASSIFICATION 250 ,
' s 200 .................
=
150 _ ......_ ......= ......
g ......................................... ,
, '=
100 z
..... =__ .......
= = =
.- _- = a = . a = ;
=mm 50 -
- . =-
=
YU=ft 0
j E D-M!Er=E 7 ,/ -
89 90 91 92 93 94 95 UEs 197 151 170 135 103 94 ' 66 Responded
- 6 7 13 14 6 2 4 Alerts ililll 13 10 9 20 8 4 8 SAEsiliE - 1 2 1 1 b
O NRC RESPONSE FRE CENCY (FOR EMERGENCIES AT ALERT AND ABOVE) 25 M
20 , ........ .................... =.......................................
=
15 m ................. ...... -
=
g ..--._ -... --...--....................
- =
10
=
. r. .
=- m =.... M g...
k..._ _ .. ......... .......
= = m -
=
= r 5
= = -
P = = -===$5ll5 P P
'/
0 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 Responded => 6 7 13 14 6 2 4 Alerts 13 10 9 20 8 4 !8 SAEss 1 2 1 1
O ~
O O~ .
NRC Operations Center s Liaison Ready Teams Room Y f i k Executive Team Protective
\ eam Measures Team Operations / Directors Officer Reactor Safeguard Safety Team Team Operations _
Support Team
\
O O O i
i ET DECISIONS .
- What Advice or Otiier Support Should the NRC Provide to the i Licensee or State and Local Officials?
e Should the NRC Provide Independent Recommendations for Protective Action to Offsite Authorities?
e Should the NRC lssue Recommendations to the Licensee?
e What Information Should be Provided to Other Officials or Media?
e Should Federal Assistance Be Requested?
l i
O ,
O O .l REACTOR SAFETY TEAM FUNCTIONS e independently Assess Status of Core / Containment Licensee Emergency Classification Licensee Actions e Assist Protective Measures Team with Protective Action !
Assessment e Inform Executive Team Plant Status Licensee Response I
Recommendations to Advise / Direct Licensee t
e Support Site Team During EXPANDED ACTIVATION
O O O PROTECTIVE MEASURES TEAM FUNCTIONS e Assess In-plant Health and Safety and Project Off-site -
Consequences
- Independently Formulate Protective Action Recommendations i i i e Inform Executive Team Radiological Consequence Projections Protective Action Recommendations e Assess Need for Federal Radiological Monitoring and Assessment Support '
l e Support Site Team During Expanded Activation 1
i I
O O O t
i l
SAFEGUARDS TEAM FUNCTIONS
- Advise Executive Team about Security Aspects of Safeguards Incidents i
e Provide Safeguards Technical Information to Federal Intelligence Community
- e Give Decision Makers Plant-Specific Inforination Concerning Safeguards Contingency Plan P
s i
O O O i
LIAISON TEAM FUNCTIONS e Coordinate Communication by the Executive Team with the White House, Congress, and the State e Ensure Timely Release of Public Information e Coordinate Commitment of Federal Assets in Support of the State e Inform Executive Team on the Status of: .
Protective Action Implementation Activation of Federal Resources 5 t i
O
~
O O -
OPERATIONS SUPPORT TEAM FUNCTIONS e Disseminate Information -
Throughout the Response Organization Other Federal Agencies Public e Coordinate Resource Needs e Logistical Arrangements for Response Personnel
O O O AUTHORITIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES TRANSFERRED TO DSO o Authority to Recommend Actions to Licensee e Authority to Recommend Offsite Actions, Either Confirming Licensee Recommendations or Providing Additional NRC Recommendations e Assume Responsibilities as Primary Spokesperson for NRC Responding to Media e Supervision of all NRC Personnel at the Site e implements NRC's Role as Lead Federal Agency With Other Agencies
- Authority to Direct the Licensee to Take Specific Actions and Reentry; [ Delegated on case-specific basis]
O O O i
i I
i EMERGENCY RESPONSE VISION STATEMENT .
" Response Ready - Ready to Respond" i
r t
s
O O O NRC INCIDENT RESPONSE PROGRAM s
e Facilities and Equipment o Headquarters Operations Center and Regional IRCs o Telecommunications Equipment Replacement for FTS-2000 Emergency Response Data System Upgrade
- Assessment Codes and Methods o " RASCAL" Dose Assessment Code l o Reactor Safety Assessment System (RSAS) o Response Technical Manual (RTM)
O .
O O .
NRC INCIDENT RESPONSE PROGRAM - Cont'd.
- Emergency Responders o Response Team Staffing o Training I
Commissioners, Technical Teams, Emergency Officers Scenario-Based Approach o Exercises Four Full Participation and a Dozen Limited Participation Exercises Annually Gaseous Diffusion Plant Exercises i
._____-_._-__-__----__________--_______-_____--_________b
O O O
\
NRC INCIDENT RESPONSE PROGRAM - Contd.
- Program Development o Response Coordination Manual (RCM) o improvements to Activation Process Changes to EO Procedures AEOD Management involvement o Headquarters Lead in Standby Mode of Response Free Regional Staff to Concentrate on Site Team Preparation o Demonstration of Press Center Activation !
t
O O O NRC INCIDENT RESPONSE PROGRAM - Contd.
- State Outreach o Training Sessions in Regional Offices and at State Capitals si Federal Coordination 3
o FEMA, DOE, EPA, HHS, USDA and Others o Publication of Federal Radiological Emergency Response Plan o Nuclear / Biological / Chemical Terrorism e Internatidnal Program o IAEA Assistance on Emergency Response t
o Lisbon Initiative
!