ML20134Q039
| ML20134Q039 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 02/19/1997 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| References | |
| ACRS-T-2092, NUDOCS 9702260223 | |
| Download: ML20134Q039 (36) | |
Text
Officirl Transcript cf Prcccadings '
O NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ACRsr-2092
Title:
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Thermal Hydraulic Phenomena Subcommittee Docket Number: (not applicable) TRO4 (ACRS)
RETURN ORIGINAL TO BJWHITE M/S T-2E26 415-7130 Location: Rockville, Maryland O Date: Wednedsay, February 19,1997 Work Order No.: NRC-1016 Pages 1-9/145-167 h[o$& ?M / oA/ ,A,a /O 'IY Q22 3 970219 T-2092 pyg NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
9 Court neporters and Transcribers
'60048 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 ADRSCgeOc@'FTsHM"jggpg" 1
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l O !
DIBCLAIMER J l
l PUBLIC NOTICE 1 BY THE !
l' UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION'S l t
j ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 1 ;
i '
FEBRUARY 19, 1996 The contents of this transcript of the proceedings of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission's Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards on )
l FEBRUARY 19, 1997, as reported herein, is a record of the l l
discussions recorded at the meeting held on the above date.
This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected i
and edited and it may contain inaccuracies. j l
r l
l l
l l
l-l lO NEAL R. GROSS i
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l 1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
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-m 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
- 4
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3 +++++
4 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 5 THERMAL HYDRAULIC PHENOMENA SUBCOMMITTEE l I
6 +++++
7 OPEN SESSION j 8 +++++
9 WEDNESDAY 10 FEBRUARY 19, 1997 11 +++++
12 ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND 13 +++++
14 The Subcommittee met at the Nuclear Regulatory 15 Commission, Two White Flint North, Room T2B3, 11545 16 Rockville Pike, at 8:30 a.m., Ivan Catton, Chairman, 17 presiding.
18 19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
20 IVAN CATTON Chairman 21 MARIO FONTANA Member 22 THOMAS S. KRESS Member 23 ROBERT L. SEALE Member l 24
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2 1 ACRS STAFF PRESENT:
c') 2 JOHN T. LARKINS Exec. Director
'%-)
3 PAUL BOEHNERT 4 AMARJIT SINGH 1
5 CAROL A. HARRIS 6 RICHARD P. SAVIO 7
8 ACRS CONSULTANT PRESENT:
9 NOVAK ZUBER l
10 11 ALSO PRESENT:
12 BRIAN A. McINTYRE 13 WAYNE HODGES O) z' 14 LOU SHOTKIN 15 FAROUK ELTAWILA 16 ALAN LEVIN 17 CATHY HOLZLE 18 BART COWAN 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q ,) 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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[
3 1 A-G-E-N-D-A 2 Acenda Item Page gS
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t-) 3 I. Opening remarks - Chairman Catton 4 4
5 VI. Subcommittee Discussion / Caucus 145 I
6 7
8 9
10 11 12
,._x 13 I )
'v' 14 15 i l
l 16 17 i
I 18 I 19 20 21 22 l
23 24
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i 2 Q ,) 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S i
, p 2 (8:37 a.m.) ;
, V The meeting will now come to 3 CHAIRMAN CATTON: ;
4 order. This is a meeting of the ACRS Subcommittee on l 1
5 Thermal Hydraulic Phenomena. 1 6 I am Ivan Catton, Chairman of the l 1
7 Subcommittee. The members in attendance are: Mario 8 Fontana, Tom Kress, and Bob Seale. The ACRS Consultant in ;
l 9 attendance is Novak Zuber.
1 10 The Subcommittee will gather information, l l
L 11 analyze relevant issues and facts, and formulate proposed 12 positions and actions for deliberation by the full ;
i 13 committee, regarding technical issues associated with 1 14 AP600 test data generated at the ROSA test facility.
t 15 Most of this meeting will be closed to the.
~
l 16 public to protect information deemed proprietary to the 17 Westinghouse Electric Corporation.
l'8 Paul'Boehnert is the Cognizant ACRS Staff i
i~
l 19 Engineer for this meeting.
l
- 20 The rules for participation in today's meeting ;
i <
21 have been announced as part of the notice of this meeting 22 previously published in the Federal Register on February
'23 12, l'997.
i
!_ 24 A transcript of the meeting is being kept and
! 25 will be made available as stated in the Federal Register 1
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!' 1 5 '
1 notice. It is requested that the speakers first identify i 2 themselves and speak with sufficient clarity and volume so !
O- 3 that they can be readily heard.
I j
i 4 We have received no written comments or 5 requests for time to make oral statements from members of l
6 the public.
7 I'm not really sure where to start. This is a l l
8 rather unusual meeting for this subcommittee. I read the j 1
9 letters, first from McIntyre to Hodges, and then Hodges to j 10 McIntyre, then McIntyre to Hodges, and I'm even more ,
11 confused. -
I l -12 The initial concern is clearly stated. "Any
-13 direct" -- this is the first letter. "Any direct O_ 14 comparisons between testing data an? computer code i
l- 15 calculations for the purpose of validation and 16 verification of such computer codes would therefore not be 17 possible".
18 It seems to me what they were concerned with i 19 is the codes, and validation and verification of the codes 20 with meaningful data. The response from Hodges to l 21 McIntyre says, "We conclude that there is no basis for 1
22 considering the data in the document" -- this is the paper ;
2 .n question -- "to be proprietary or to lead to discovery a
24 of proprietary information."
25 There was a 3 October letter from McIntyre to l- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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6 1 Hodges and here things change, but the concerns were 2 stated more clearly. " Transient mass inventories can be j
.i 3 used to infer component to component flow rates, important ;
4 when looking at passive systeni interactions. Two, cold 5 leg temperature, hot leg temperature, DVI mass flows" --
l 6 and a' couple of other things -- "are enough to allow a 7 competitor to readily develop competing passive technology .
8 or claim to have benchmarked computer codes." ,
i I
i 9 I wasn't sure whether " includes" meant the sum l
l 10 of, or also, CMT flow and accumulator flow and IRWST. If
! ]
l- 11 all are given, then Westinghouse is probably correct. j 12 There was a 13 December memo from Taylor to ;
- 13 Kress, and he's talking about reverse engineering.
i :
14 Westinghouse did mention reverse engineering in their 3 15 October letter but that's the first time that I saw it.
16 There's more memos that have gone backwards 17 and forwards. The questign that has been posed to us i~, s j 18 can.you reverse engineer from the paper? This was posed 19 to us by the EDO. My colleagues instruct me to try to 20 stick rather narrowly to the question. I guess we'll try 21 to do that.
22 So I'll let Wayne open up and tell me what NRC 23 thinks it's all about. Yes, Tom?
24 MEMBER KRESS: Well, rather narrowly in the f
25 sense that let's keep it technical, but I think we ought NEAL R. GROSS j i
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. _ . _ . _ _ _ . _ _m _m . . . _ _ . . . _ . - .. ...._._ . . _ . _ . , _ _ _ . _ . . ._ . . _ _ _ . . . _ _ .
7
! 1 to use the broader interpretation of reverse engineering ;
\ .
l 2 and include anything that could be done with the paper and j l'
1 3 other information to undermine Westinghouse's competitive 4 position, and that takes in a lot.
5 So I would keep it narrow in the sense, let's 6 focus on the technical things, but I would broaden our 7 definition of what we mean by reverse engin~eering. ,
8 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Well, the problem I have l_ l l '9 with that Tom, is that if I look at all of the papers and 10 '
start building up what I know about the AP600, by the time l
11 I get to the NRC paper there's a grain of truth in what !
12 Westinghouse says. You could use it.
i 13 If I didn't have any of the information that l; 14 has been published by Westinghouse and others, I'm.not j l
15 sure that I could. So I don't know how to really keep the ;
i 16 focus that narrow. If I just look at the NRC paper you 17 come'to one conclusion. If you look at the package that's ;
L 18 on the table you come to a different conclusion.
19 MEMBER KRESS: I would look just at the one f-u 20 paper in the context of what else exists out there. And i
l' l 21 that's one more piece of information, and look at it that I
22 way. j i
i l 23 CHAIRMAN CATTON: I'm not sure I need it --
t ;
t 1 24 one more piece of information.
25- MEMBER KRESS: Well, that's another part of
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8 !
I i
l 1 the issue, I guess.
l L 2 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Okay, anyway. Wayne? Or 3 would anybody else like to comment? Bob? Okay. !
4 MEMBER FONTANA: Are we talking about this one L i
5' particular paper? Or generally?
I 6 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Well, it's the one l 7 particular paper that Westinghouse was concerned about, or t
l 8 that they have said something about. There's another i
9 string of papers that were submitted and that were in the j i
- . 10 package that we have. But it's basically "the" paper. !
i 11 MEMBER FONTANA: I mean, from a strict, legal l 12 point of view, are we talking about this --
l 13 CHAIRMAN CATTON: We're not legal. l
.{
V 14 MEMBER FONTANA: I know we're not legal, but i I
15 they are.
16 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Well, they can listen.
17 MEMBER FONTANA: Because if we're talking 18 about this paper it's one thing; if you're talking about 19 the whole --'just as you said, if you're talking about the i 20 whole spectrum of paper it's something else.
21 CHAIRMAN CATTON: That's right.
22 MEMBER KRESS: We're talking about this paper 23 in the context that other things out there exist.
24 MEMBER FONTANA: Okay. I understand that.
[ 25 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Okay. Given that i l
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9 1 clarification, whatever it's worth -- Wayne?
' 1 r^s 2 (Whereupon, the proceedings went immediately (v) 3 into closed session.)
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 l 11 12
_ _ .' 13
/ i
^'
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 l 21 22 23 24 4
' 25 w./
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145 1 (11:44 a.m.)
I
- 2 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Well, the meeting is open.
'v' 3 Mario, do you have any comments?
j 4 MEMBER FONTANA: Not any more than I've 5 already said.
6 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Novak?
7 DR. ZUBER: I have several comments. I have 8 little difficulties with both presentations: one from 9 Westinghouse, the other one from the staff. And I have to 10 say in the beginning I'm sympathetic to both.
11 What I would really like to offer at the end 12 is a short-term solution to this question addressed today, 13 but I think the problem is much bigger than you can t
(%
J
\/ 14 resolve at this meeting.
15 My problem with Westinghouse seems like this. ;
l 16 They gave their blessing to ROSA V several years ago. And 17 now they feel sorry, and they would like to change the l l
l 18 status. And they would really try to granddaddy, to do 19 something retroactive.
20 My problem with this is that this is not 21 24-man, especially with SPES. I don't know how they can 22 address this if something is already out. Just changing 23 it for ROSA, for this paper doesn't make any sense.
24 I sympathize with Westinghouse's position but (D
(_) 25 not very much. They were born several years ago.
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146 1 Now, with NRC, the problems or the questions I )
fs 2 have with respect to their presentation, I disagree in
( )
\_/
3 some respects. I think the data can be used to shortcut a 4 competitor. I think that data are valuable. ,
5 I think that one can do a reverse engineering.
6 Of course, this depends who is the engineer. But a good l
7 engineer can do a good reverse engineering. I think this l
8 can be done. j 1
9 I think the data can be also very useful for a 10 code. You can tweak the code. And if you see what the 11 phenomena are -- for example, I remember several years ago l
I 12 that we did discuss these questions of stratification very 13 much. And then it came up as a result, t i k/ 14 So the results are really useful per se. One 15 can adjust the code and tweak it to the data. I don't say 16 that this will pass with our NRR staff or with a committee 17 like this, but I think somebody in Asia or somebody else 18 with a buyer, I think a procedure like this would be 19 admissible.
20 I sympathize with WEN's position that it was 21 the taxpayers' money. And I as think taxpayers, I should l
22 be receptive to the idea, "Yes, publish it."
l 23 Now, what really are the issues as I see it, 24 really, now, there are really two. What you are really
(_) 25 setting up today is the precedent. I think the paper l
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147 :
l l.
1 without SPES data are out, really, we're not tal':ing ,
{
~
. 2 something that -- I mean, the chickens are out of the coop
- 3 or something like that.
l l 4 What we're really discussing are. future data 5 and I think the way I can see it also future use of OSU f i t 6 data because OSU data is the unit facility. So I think if !
7 you set the precedent today, you will have to address a 8 similar question down the road. l l
9 CHAIRMAN CATTON: OSU data is probably more j l
10 valuable for -- ,
j-11 DR. ZUBER: That's my point. That's my point. ,
I i
l 12 So the question is not. really addressing whether this l t l 13 Ipaper should or should not have been published. I'think l /N ll 14 that's water under the bridge. The question is --
15 MR. SHOTKIN: Can I just -- this paper has not i
.i l
l 16 been published.. It was scheduled to be published in the l
17 December issue and was withdrawn because of the threat of 18 Westinghouse legal action.
19 DR. ZUBER: Okay. If I can say, the problem 20 is with SPES data or anything else, I don't see the 21 rationale to stop this paper. But if you want to i
l 22 granddaddy the results to go back, you may do that.
23' But the problem is beyond I think ROSA. I 24 think the problem will be.with OSU.down the road. I think 25 the Committee and the OSU should really think about it in ;
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l 148 1 the future, r 2 And the question is: Should we granddaddy the (3
v l
3 results for something that was approved several years ago?
4 Again, this is not a technical question. I think it's 5 more legal.
6 What I would like to offer is really a 7 short-term solution. It's really based on my technical 8 bias. I don't see any rationale not to publish results in 9 a dimension-less, normalized form.
10 I think take any hydraulic book. We don't 11 publish data. He have friction factor versus Reynolds 12 number.
13 CHAIRMAN CATTON: But, Novak, when they talk I ,
V 14 about dimensional -- they talk about normalized, not -
15 dimension-less.
16 DR. ZUBER: Well, look, one or the other. You 17 can normalize. You can put it in a dimensional form.
18 CHAIRMAN CATTON: But unless you know how to 19 back out the --
20 DR. ZUBER: The thing is you --
21 CHAIRMAN CATTON: -- initial values, it's no 22 good. They just take and divide by the height.
23 DR. ZUBER: Well, you can do that. You can 24 normalize in different ways.
,r 3
(_,/ 25 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Sure.
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l 149 l
1 DR. ZUBER: My criticism of this technology r
g-] 2 was always they presented the data in a dimensional form, QI 3 time pressure versus time temperature, something. So you 4 had oodles of data without any synthesis. And my bias was 5 always synthesize the data. Either you normalize it or 6 put it in dimension-less form.
7 I think this can be done. I think it's more 8 effective. Argument is that some journal would not accept 9 such information. That's absolutely right. But those are 10 trade journals. I think you don't go into trade journals 11 and present dimension-less form. You go to a good, 12 reputable technical journal, they will ask you to put in
,-.s 13 dimension-less form.
/ \
So I really don't see any issue which cannot 14 15 be addressed now. Recommendation is that some of these 16 questions which were raised by Westinghouse could be 17 really put aside by putting the data in dimension-less 18 form. I think this is more effective and it's a better 19 technical basis.
20 But going back, I think now they're paying the 21 price for -- they made a decision four years ago on ROSA 22 V.
23 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Thank you, Novak.
, 24 Bob?
{}
\/ s 25 MEMBER SEALE: I'm still trying to figure out NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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150 1 what we can do that will have any real impact on the l
lf-~) 2 decision.
I LI 3 CHAIRMAN CATTON: I don't think there's i
l 4 anything, frankly. But Tom?
5 MEMBER KRESS: Well, I must say my sympathies 6 lie more with Westinghouse here than with the staff. And 7 the reasons are twofold, threefold. One, I don't think 8 Westinghouse is a bureaucracy that acts arbitrarily. I 9 think they recognize much better than we or the staff does 10 where their competitive interest lies. And they have said 11 this hurts their competitive interest. And I think we 12 ought to weigh that very heavily.
13 I also think a good, competent engineer can t
\ ') 14 reverse engineer in the sense that I think a reasonable ,
l 15 deck can be made of the ROSA V facility and that the data 16 as presented in this paper would be very useful to 17 somebody who wanted to reproduce a passive plant that's ;
l 18 not necessarily a carbon copy of Westinghouse but has 19 enough features in it that makes it look like the 20 Westinghouse AP600, which would give a real advantage to 21 somebody who wanted to market this.
22 And, along with that, I don't think it's 23 relevant what information is already out there that's out i
24 of the bag. I think if Westinghouse thinks that this
-~
f s
(_) 25 additional information is harmful to them, that that's the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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151 )
1 relevant issue and that I don't think you risk very much
- i i
7- 2 in accepting the Westinghouse proposal that this be O)] 3 non-dimensionalized. I think the paper would be a good l
4 paper and would be acceptable to most reputable journals 5 if they accepted the Westinghouse proposal. )
6 So that's the way I come down on it. l l
7 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Thank you, Tom.
8 Actually, the problem is I think that 9 Westinghouse is asking for more than dimension-less form.
10 I agree with Novak that in the past, there have been too 11 many papers that just published the output of a code, 12 pressure versus time, this versus time, temperature versus 13 time, with no synthesis.
\J 14 And I would hope that papers that result from ,
I 15 ROSA would try to address these issues. If you can put l 16 the data in dimension-less form, I think it should be l 17 published. And I bet Westinghouse will be satisfied.
18 DR. ZUBER: That's my feeling.
19 CHAIRMAN CATTON: But for Westinghouse to ask I
20 that the data be put in normalized form, then you know 21 nothing and you've learned very little from the curves. I 22 don't think that's appropriate, although I agree with Tom.
23 So I have a lot of trouble deciding where we l
24 are between these two extremes. And I agree with your
/'N ,
- () 25 comment that either the ANSALDO paper -- I mean, that l l
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152 l
1 clearly to me gives me enough information, even how to 2 nodalize, which is usually a big question.
(o) s.s 3 On the other hand, this paper that the staff 4 put together, I mean, they're talking about things like 5 removal of the pressure balance line. If I were 6 Westinghouse, that would really upset me, although I don't 7 know whether that information is outside or not, because 8 that was a real issue at the outset if you remember.
9 DR. ZUBER: Yes.
10 CHAIRMAN CATTON: That's an important change. ,
I 11 MEMBER SEALE: Test results-driven.
12 CHAIRMAN CATTON: But I think it was 13 Westinghouse-driven test result change.
( ) '
14 MEMBER SEALE: That's what I mean.
15 CHAIRMAN CATTON: And it was done to address 16 certain issues that had come out. I think most of them l 17 actually came out in our Subcommittee meetings, what to do i
18 about the water hammer in the top of the CMT. They ,
1 19 addressed that issue. And right here it talks about it.
20 Now, is that publicly available information?
21 MR. McINTYRE: It has to be publicly available 22 because that's a change to really the fundamental aspects 23 of the design. Are we comfortable with that? Are we 24 happy with that?
,e i- / 25 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Yes. But, on the other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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153 1 hand, just because it's in the SSAR doesn't mean -- I i
,e m 2 mean, this kind of discussion that's in here, flow 3 diffusers and all this kind of stuff, I think I would 4 consider some of that proprietary. But that's my own 5 opinion.
6 MR. McINTYRE: Maybe we were too liberal, sir.
7 CHAIRMAN CATTON: I don't know. I don't know 8 what we can suggest.
9 MR. McINTYRE: Yes. I think I'd make one 10 comment back to something that Novak had said. If you 11 look at some of the more recent papers from the Italians 12 -- and one of those two things that I put up there was an 13 Italian paper -- that they have seen the light. What we (U) 14 know about, we can fix.
15 MR. HODGES: Some of the places we've looked 1
16 at like that that have had numbers removed from 17 coordinates and whatnot, if you go to the text of the .
l 18 paper, you see the numbers in there for starting points.
l 19 It's very easy to add the numbers back to the 20 paper. That doesn't necessarily say that they continue 21 essentially with them all. It's almost like a game where 22 that was played, it seems like.
23 But, to get back to this other point of you I
24 can take the data and you can adjust your code until you
(~)'s l 'q ,. 25 get the fit and until you start understanding the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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i 154 l
l l 1 facilities, once you start turning those dials on your
( :
(N 2 computer code to try to do that, you may get the computer t
l
- N._ )i l 3 code to model that particular test.
4 But as soon as you try to apply it beyond that particular test, you're probably getting nonsense because 5
6 you're not necessarily hitting the right -- you're getting l 7 the correct answers for the wrong reasons. And if you try 8 to extrapolate that to any other test or any other design, 9 you get in trouble.
1 10 And I think that even some of the changes that 11 had been put 1: *o Westinghouse, into RELAPS early on 12 didn't look terribly important and sulved some problems 7,
13 once you got into some regimes where it mattered. Yes,
(
)
they created problems. ;
14 4 15 So it doesn't take much to get the code in 16 trouble just by turning knobs. So don't think that ,
1 17 because you matched that test, you're okay.
18 MR. McINTYRE: And I think that that answers 19 --
20 CHAIRMAN CATTON: If I match both SPES-2 and r
21 the ROSA data that will become available, I might feel l
\
22 pretty comfortable about what I've accomplished. ;
23 DR. ZUBER: It's more than that, Ivan. It's i
24 the other, who is the buyer or the other regulator. You l l l i /%
[ \ ;
(/ 25 see? They may not be very inquisitive. They may not be l l
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155 I
1 very strong or very hard-nosed. And they may not --
n 2 CHAIRMAN CATTON: That's true. That's ,
3 certainly true.
4 DR. ZUBER: I mean, you may have to see who is 5 the audience.
6 MR. McINTYRE: Exactly.
7 DR. ZUBER: If the audience is here, that will 8 be another question or an audience somewhere else, it's 9 another question again. ,
10 MR. McINTYRE: I think Wayne answered to some 11 extent Dr. Kress' question of kind of like: Where do you 12 draw the line, and what's the value of the data? You're 13 absolutely right. You do get in trouble.
( i D 14 Believe me, Westinghouse knows probably better 15 than anybody when you get it to run -- I'11 throw NOTRUMP i
16 out as the example. It worked pretty good for operating !
l 17 plants, but it doesn't work worth a darn without a whole I 18 lot of work to work on AP600. And we have had to get 19 that, l 20 So you may not get this piece of information 21 for that test. You may not get that much. If you start 22 to expand that universe, hey, you can figure out which 23 knobs need to be adjusted. And this is back to, as Novak 24 says: Who is going to be your judge? And I can't predict
( 25 that here on the 19th of Februar'/ 1997.
(/
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. . ~ . . . - _ _ _ - , - . ~ . _ . . . . - - . - - - . - . - _ - - - . . . .. . - . - . . . - . ... .. - . -
1 156 t 1 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Do you have an agreement :
p 2 with ANSALDO?
3 MR. McINTYRE: Yes. !
t 4 CHAIRMAN CATTON: You do? Are they going to j i
5 stop publishing that kind of stuff? l i
6 MR. McINTYRE: We think they have. I would be ,
7 interested in seeing this paper.
8 CHAIRMAN CATTON: They're right here. You can j 9 take a look at them. l 10 MR. McINTYRE: We think that paper -- what I 11 was trying to do -- I'll go back to my 13th slide or 12 whatever it is -- had that one paper from ANSALDO that did I 13 have -- ,
\ l 14 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Normalization.
l' 15 MR. McINTYRE: -- the normalized units and/or 16 no pressure. That was our take. We understood. We l 17 talked to them. I think I have fixed it. If I haven't, I i
18 will endeavor to do so. 1 19 CHAIRMAN CATTON: In normalizing pressure, you 20 divided by the maximum.
l 21- MR. McINTYRE: Pressure'is a --
22 CHAIRMAN CATTON: If that's all Westinghouse t
l 23 wants, it should be no problem. We do try to be flexible i
24 and not --
l 25 MR. LEVIN: D r .. Catton,-may I make a comment NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005 3701 (202) 234-4433
157 l
! 1 on Dr. Zuber's recommendation? I'm a little concerned l g3 2 about this because as I said in my presentation, I think l (s- !
3 normalized information gives you nothing.
4 I think publishing it in non-dimensional form 5 gives away too much. We haven't published anywhere the 6 detailed scaling basis for this test facility. If you ;
1 7 publish the information in dimension-less form using as a l
8 basis for your non-dimensional parameters the scaling 1
9 basis for the facility, then you provide that information, 10 which we've agreed we ought to hold proprietary. ,,
1 i
11 Now, I agree with you that when you're 12 comparing amongst several test facilities and as we're 13 doing internally that the scaling basis and the
( )
\/ 14 non-dimensional basis makes a gcod way to synthesize this 15 information. But putting it in the open literature in 16 this way I don't think for one test gains you anything. l 17 And I think it gives away more informar. ion than you want 1
18 to. l 19 DR. ZUBER: Well, one of the reasons I made l
i 20 this comment was I think this was the recommendation of )
l 21 Westinghouse to normalize the data.
22 CHAIRMAN CATTON: But that's not what they 23 mean, Novah. When they say " normalize the data," they l 24 don' t mean to make it di uension-less . They mean just take
'x -) 25 the scale and divide by one of the numbers on it.
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, -. .- -...~.- . -. , . ..~ . -. - . . . ~ . . . -.-.--. . . . . - - .
4 158 1 i
.1 MEMBER KRESS: Which does make it j
-g 2 dimension-less.
3 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Like if it's mass flux. And
. -\
4 one of the ones up here had a ten for height, divided by- )
i I
To
-5 ten, and then don't tell you what they divided it by. ;
' I
- 6 me it makes the results useless. If you're going to show .]
t 7 me a figure, I have to be able to do something with it or !
- i 8 learn something from it. If I gain neither, then don't l 6
i 9 publish'it. l
. 10 Now, dimeraion-less is a different story. But l l i
- . o
,~ 11 if you make it diineasion-less and you give system results, j i i 4-12 like'this paper does, then I agree witn Alan. You don't t
i I 13 want to do that either. But if you were to ferret out a 1-
)
4 i $
I~ 14 piece of it, like draining characteristics of the ROSA V-4 F 15 CMT in dimension-less form, well, hey, that's okay because l l
16 ,you can't really put that back together maybe.
l 17 DR. ZUBER: I think you could. l j
18 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Maybe.
19 DR. ZUBER: I think you could.
23 CHAIRMAN CATTON: If you could, then there's a 21 problem. And it's going to be in the hands of the lawyers 22 to worry aboIt it, I think.
23 No further comments? What I'm going to do is 1
'24 adjourn because I have --
- 25 MEMBER SEALE: Well, are we going to present NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS l 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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% ^
159 1 this to the full Committee?
2 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Oh, yes. Thank you, Paul.
(~N)
\
%s' 3 I need some help. My first inclination is no, 4 that the Committee ought to consider this themselves 5 because you have all the information. On the other hand, 6 there's only three of you here. I won't be a member when -
7 this comes before the Committee, --
l 8 MEMBER KRESS: Well, we could --
9 CHAIRMAN CATTON: -- although I can sit in the 10 audience, I guess.
11 MEMBER KRESS: We could invite you as a i
12 technical expert to join us.
13 MEMBER SEALE: This is a nontechnical issue.
/,_...x )
\
"/
14 MEMBER KRESS: And I think there appears to be 15 enough diversity of opinion that those of us who are here, 16 Paul, could probably summarize both sides and discuss the 17 Subcommittee's deliberations in enough detail and enough j 18 fairness to make the full Committee aware of the different 19 points of view. So probably we could deal with this in 20 our own way without having to ask either the staff or 21 Westinghouse to come back.
22 What do you think, Tom?
23 CHAIRMAN CATTON: At least not for a formal l
24 presentation.
f3 L i
'v ,/,
25 MEMBER KRESS: Yes. That's what I mean.
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160 1 CHAIRMAN CATTON: But it probably would be a j ,y 2 good idea to have a principal from each side available.
1
%_/
3 MEMBER KRESS: Yes, that would be helpful.
4 MR. McINTYRE: We wouldn't miss it. We 5 wouldn't miss it, sir. What day is this? ;
6 CHAIRMAN CATTON: I think it's Thursday.
7 DR. BOEHNERT: It's Thursday, the 6th. Right 8 now -- well, depending on how we *-ork the schedule, it 9 would probably be around 11:00 o' clock, somewhere around 10 there.
11 MR. McINTYRE: Thursday, the 6th is all I 12 need.
13 DR. BOEHNERT: Yes, Thursday.
i
. CTi
\# 14 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Well, you may want to be l
15 here for what goes before it, too, which is the 1
16 RELAPS/ MOD 3 to assess AP600 design.
17 MR. McINTYRE: We do have more than a passing l
18 ' icterest in that.
l l 19 MS. HOLZLE: May I interject something here?
l 20 I was supposed to attend as a fly on the wall today, and 21 I've been a pretty noisy fly. But there are certainly i 22 legal aspects to this, the big question, which you have 23 acknowledged.
24 A couple of those things are indeed the fact
/m
/ \
that for the agency to agree to withhold something from
( ,/ 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 Rh0DE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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161 .}
A I
1 the public, it utilizes the principles applicable under ;
. ?
2 the Freedom of Information Act. So that's how we get to- j j ,
3 the whole issue of what is or is not proprietary. !
4 We didn't ask or, rather, the EDO did not ask j 5 the ACRS to speculate about that. ;
i i l 6 CHAIRMAN CATTON: 'And we haven't, I hope. !
s
[ l 7 MS. HOLZLE: Precisely. And, as a practical ;
l
, i l J 8 matter, the problem with referring-the whole thing to j l
9 legal people to resolve is that the legal determination l i
l 10 cannot be divorced from the technical determination. In. i L !
l 11 essence, the legal determination has to be based on some :
l 12 explanation of whether it is technically possible to do !
t 13 what it is that Westinghouse fears. And that has been the
\ 14 foundation of the legal advice so far, 15 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Okay. Let me address that. ]
i .
'16 I think from what I've heard'around the table, the answer !
17 to that question is that this paper certainly would add to 18 whatever is needed to do what Westinghouse. fears most.
19 DR. ZUBER: I think --
20 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Novak has said that. Tom i
21 has come to that conclusion. I reluctantly came to that l
, 22 conclusion. So I think that that's what we would l
, 23 conclude, that's what we would answer.
i
. 24 MEMBER SEALE: And the sausage argument 25 applies here, too.
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162 1 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Could you tell me what the s' 2 sausage argument is?
3 MEMBER SEALE: Well, you know, the old idea is 4 that'when the guy who makes the sausage wants to cut 5 costs, why, he starts putting filler in and taking out the i 6 beef and the pork. l
?
7 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Oh, okay.
8 MEMBER SEALE: And the more you cut costs, all j i
9 right. Pretty soon there's none left. i 10 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Okay. !
< 11 MEMBER SEALE: This argument also is l
12 appropriate to agency downsizing, by the way. But if you !
13 take this, the ANSALDO papers,. whatever else comes along, 1 i
14 in the aggregate, you have the capability to do a lot more
.15 than you would have in isolation.
16 If someone-did the equivalent of a PIRT j i
17 analysis, which we understand is proprietary or restricted I i
18 anyway,.if you do the equivalent of a PIRT analysis to 19- lead you, then you can do an awfully lot more capable 20 twiddling of the computer dials. And all of these data j 21 taken together give you a lot more cross-checks to decide I I
22 that you have done the right twiddles, as opposed to the ]
l- 23 wrong twiddles. So it's --
I I 24 MS. HOLZLE: So the question is: Do any of
' f~}-
\s s
e 25 the data in this proposed publication lead to anything t
l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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163 1 discoverable about Westinghouse's design on the AP600?
L '
2 And what is the value? Can you quantify the value of that l.f-l-
3 discoverable design information? ]
4 CHAIRMAN CATTON: We're not going to quantify ,
5 the value.
l 6 MR. COWAN: We would not agree that that's the I f
7 relevant test from the legal standpoint. We think from a j f
l 8 legal standpoint, there are two issues. One is the i I
9 contractual issue as to whether or not we.have a
- 1
! 10 contractual right, which we believe we do. j i
11 1 MS. HOLZLE: Okay. Well, you don't have l
12 privity with the NRC, for one thing. l v
l 13 MR. COWAN: Well, we believe that the NRC l 14 under its contract with JAERI committed not to publish l l 1 l
15 anything unless they had JAERI's approval that came from ;
i 16 JAERI. And, of course, JAERI committed to us not to l 17 publish anything unless they had our approval.
18 We also believe, quite apart from that, tha*
1 19 as a matter of law, proprietary information which is 20 derived from our information is a question of whether we f
f' 21 would customarily hold it in confidence.
l
'22 Now, that's a legal issue that we haven't
. 23 touched here, and I don't propose to open that up.
24 MS. HOLZLE': That's good because it's not your 25 information.
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164 1 CHAIRMAN CATTON: This is something that you f 7 'g 2 can probably carry on in a courtroom sometime.
!v/ 3 MR. COWAN: Right. I don't want to carry it ,
4 on.
5 CHAIRMAN CATTON: We're addressing the 6 technical issue only. And I believe the conclusion that 7 we're coming to -- and you'll both have opportunities to 8 spend a few minutes or at least be available at the full 9 Committee meeting.
10 I think we've come to the conclusion that the 11 paper certainly adds to what's available out there if 12 somebody was looking for development of a capability. I'm
- 13 getting that all twisted. l l
\ ) '
l 14 The paper adds to the information that's 15 needed to reverse engineer. It adds to it. How much it j l
16 adds I think would require a very serious review of what's i 17 available, which we haven't done.
18 DR. ZUBER: Pardon me. And it depends on who )
l 19 is doing it. !
l 20 CHAIRMAN CATTON: It always depends on that. )
l l 21 DR. ZUBER: Yes. j 22 CHAIRMAN CATTON: I'm making the assumption 23 that this is responsible, competent engineers given all 24 this information, given the package that I gave Brian.
c.,
V) 25 Plus, does this paper add to what I have? And yes, it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS s.;.D TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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165 1 does. How much does it add? That's a very difficult
.- 2 thing to quantify.
4 .
L~~/
3 MS. HOLZLE: But that is the issue. Is this 4 commercially valuable information?
5 CHAIRMAN CATTON: We're not in the business of 6 doing that. And I think that it would take us quite some 7 time to come to that sort of conclusion.
8 MS. HOLZLE: That's what we've been grappling 9 with on our side.
10 DR. ZUBER: In my opinion, it does.
11 CHAIRMAN CATTON: It adds, yes.
12 DR. ZUBER: It does. It does. It has a l
13 commercial value because the fellow will not have to de t :
- 14 the same experiment.
15 CHAIRMAN CATTON: But, Novak, what she's 16 asking us and I've told her we can't answer is: How much 17 does it add? ,
18 DR. ZUBER: I agree with you. I don't know.
! I l
19 CHAIRMAN CATTON: We don't know.
20 MEMBER SEALE: It's the sausage problem again, j 21 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Yes. You slide into a i
22 sawdust-based sausage.
23 MEMBER SEALE: Yes. That's right.
24 MEMBER KRESS: We can't answer how much, but
(_,/ 25 we can give words like "significant."
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166 1 MS. HOLZLE: That's helpful. I'm serious, jg 2 MEMBER SEALE: Okay.
N] 3 CHAIRMAN CATTON: We'll do what we can. I 4 guess I've got a week to help; right?
5 Okay. With that, I'm going to adjourn.
6 DR. BOEHNERT: Mr. Chairman?
7 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Yes?
8 DR. BOEHNERT: May I make a comment --
9 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Yes.
10 DR. BOEHNERT: -- on a personal note?
11 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Yes.
12 DR. BOEHNERT: I want to take note of the fact 13 that this was your last meeting as a member of this
,/ T';
N 14 Committee. It's been my privilege and pleasure to work 15 with you, and I will miss it.
16 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Thank you, Paul.
17 MEMBER FONTANA: Hear, hear.
18 MEMBER KRESS: The members certainly second 19 that, Tom.
I 20 MEMBER SEALE: Yes.
l j 21 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Thank you.
l 22 MEMBER SEALE: Thank you, Ivan. l 23 MEMBER FONTANA: I'm not going to miss him.
l 24 I'm going to keep asking him back. i 1
r-(,,/ 25 DR. BOEHNERT: Well, miss him as Chairman of l 1
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)
167 1 the Subcommittee.
jeN 2 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Gee, I won't be able to t 1
\ / '
3 control the direction anymore.
4 MEMBER KRESS: Which is not to say anything {
5 about the new Subcommittee chairman.
6 DR. BOEHNERT: Not at all. ;
7 CHAIRMAN CATTON: Thank you.
8 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was concluded 9 at 12:17 p.m.) <
10 I
11 12 13 7,~.,
o \
C/ 14 15 16 17 l '
18 1
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l 20 i
21 i 22 23 24
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{
- l O CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear i
!' Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
t l
l l Name of Proceeding: ACRS SUBCOMMITTEE ON THERMAL ~ :
HYDRAULIC PHENOMENA (OPEN SESSIONS) {
Docket Number: N/A ;
Place of Proceeding: ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear i
! Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
A7[
I
'C"ORBETT RINER i.
Official Reporter .
! Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. !
l i l
e i
4 1v )
i 1
NEAL R. GROSS
- COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
^
1323 RilODE ISLAND AVENUE, NW (202)234-4433 WASIIINGTON,D.C. 20005 (202)234-4433 5
a
\
gg INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT BY THE CHAIRMAN OF THE THERMAL HYDRAULIC PHENOMENA SUBCOMMITTEE 11545 ROCKVILLE PIKE, ROOM T-2B3 ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND FEBRUARY 19, 1997 The meeting will now come to order. This is a meeting of the ACRS Subcommittee on Thermal Hydraulic Phenomena.
I am Ivan Catton, Chairman of the Subcommittee.
The ACRS Members in attendance are:
Mario Fontana, Tom Kress, and Robert Seale. The ACRS Consultant in attendance is Novak Zuber.
The Subcommittee will gather information, analyze relevant issues and facts, and formulate proposed positions and actions for deliberation by the full Committee, regardina technical issues associated with AP600 test data generated et the ROSA test facility.
Most of this meeting will be closed to the public to protect information deemed proprietary to the Westinghouse Electric
,, Corporation.
(
(/') Paul Boehnert is the Cognizant ACRS Staff Engineer for this meeting.
~
The rules for participation in today's meeting have been announced as part of the notice of this meeting previously published in the Federal Register on February 12, 1997.
A transcript of the meeting is being kept and will be made available as stated in the Federal Register Notice. It is requested that the speakers first identify themselves and speak with heard.
sufficient clarity and volume so that they can be readily We have received no written comments or requests for time to make oral statements from members of the public.
(Chairman's Comments-if any)
We will proceed with the meeting and I call upon Mr. Wayne Hodges of the NRC Office of Nuclear Regulatory Research to begin.
%Y l
1 1