ML20129C078
| ML20129C078 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse  |
| Issue date: | 06/11/1985 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8507290340 | |
| Download: ML20129C078 (35) | |
Text
- . . _ . . _ . - .. =- . . _~. . ~ - - -
l~ i 139 1 Tuesday Afternoon Session
' ('T l
'b '2 June 11, 1985 3 4:55 o' clock p . m.
4 -- - - -
5 (Present: Moosrs. Burns, Rossi, Bell, l t
6 Beard, Lanning, Shafer, Jackiw, Kosloff, O'Connor, (
7 Rowles,-Wood,.Myers and Wideman.)
8' LM R . HYERS: Perhaps before we start, the
.. 9 sequence- of. events youshad generated was put
! .10. together'in a_ manner of about an hour and a half ,
. i i .
11 yesterday at the request of Al DeAgazio'to get -
r 12' electronically word processed through our system to -
4
() 13 get.down there at a certain time frame.
14 We apologize' for the brevity. We had to _
15 yank Stan out of several other things at the time.
16 It's obviously far from a detailed- sequence of [
17 events. We are working on one, but we haven't even 18 connected with our post'-operator review as well as
~
19 we should have, so we' apologize for that. Bu t we 20 made it and.got it sent down,..but it leaves-n' lot -
-l 21 -to be desired. .
-22 'HR. ROSSI: So-we will eventually-get an !.
4 23 updated one .that will include a.lotaof the things
, gm :24 that were described-to us in the earlier. meetings?
~
- . ACE PEDERAL REPORTERS INC.- f
[ (202) 347-3700 j ;
8507290340 850611 PDR ADOCK 05000346 T PDR ,
i
., ---a ~
n , , , - ,, ,~* m > +
140 1 MR. MYERS: Absolutelv. I think we are
("'1 s'~/
2 shooting right now to get that for our on on-site 3 nuclear review meeting in polished form. So we 4 should have better onec available almost on a daily 5 basis. Everytime we get a new one out, we will 6 have it to you.
7 MR. BEARD: Can you be sure to mark those 8 with at least a date on them.
9 HR. MYERS: I think date and time we are 10 going to end up with.
11 HR. BEARD: Every fire drill I have been 12 on, you need dato and time.
(]) 13 Are you going to give some opening 14 remarks about change of section?
15 MR. ROSSI: We are now going to talk 16 about the status of the equipment we had problems 17 with during the event and try to.tell you I guess 18 or come to some agreement as to wha t we need to do 19 in order to permit you to start trouble-ohooting 20 the equipment and ultimately fixing it and getting 21 it back into service. And we want to discuss that 22 and explore what the proper course of action to do l 23 that is. ;
i fs 24 Now, as we understand it right now, you b
ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202)-347-3700
.. - . - . . . - . . . .. - - . - - - . - . . . . - . . . = = - . - - . . - . . - . - . ~ -
1
- . 141 ;
e I have agreed with the Region to not touch any of a }
I )- s2 certain set of equipment,, the view being to keep ;
3 that equipment in its current status until we can !
i
[. 4 decide how to on a systematic way go in and find I f 5 out exactly what was wrong with it and so that we s
6 don't lose any of the information that's currently i
.7 there. ;
i
- 8 I guess what we would?1ike to hear- f rom 9 you.probably tomorrow .is the status of that i
L 10 equipment, the list of the equipment which you have j t already -- you-have already asked him for a list of ;
11 ,
12 the equipment.
( .13 HR. JACKIW: Yes, we have.:
i 14 MR. ROSSI: And the -Region -has -already ;
1 15 asked for a' description of what was'done with that ,
-16 equipment up until the time thatthere was .
4 17 essentia11y'this freeze put on it.- You have a sked L
i 18 for that.
- . 19 MR. JACKIW
- That's right. ;
'20 MR. ROSSI: And I gather that list has l 21 not been provide'd to'the Region as yet?
22 MR. WOOD: That's correct.. And wha t we !
23 would like to talk'about, as a' p recau t i.ona ry [
, .24 measure, we put essentially .a . hold on all. the work- l ACE PEDERAL' REPORTERS'INC. ,
- (202) _347-3700 ,
p ,.
,l
' ., e , .
U 142 1 that was remotely associated with the transient,
~ k ') 2 and we would like to review that list that we have 3 had in abeyance at this time and d i s cu s s with you 4 whether that is indeed the right set of equipment 5 to hold in abeyance right now. And if there is 6 some direct feedback that we can get, mayho we can 7 get some work released to the people in the station.
8 So I guess that was one of the reasons we 9 asked to have this conversation today was to tell 10 you which equipment we very specifically have on 11 hold.
12 MR. BEARD: I think that we heard I Quess
() 13 an hour or so ago this was a concern and we have 14 had some brief internal discussions about it, and I 15 think Ernie has got some thouahts as to how we 16 might approach this in' terms of best allowing you
~
17 to take loose any or get a hold of any equipment 18 you want to work on, and I think he's got some 19 points in mind that maybe give us some guidance on 20 how to approach the matter.
21 HR. ROSSI: First of all, I think we need 22 to understand why the equipment was --
how it was 23 related to'the event and why it was put on the list 24 to be frozen, and presumably that's associated with
- ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
l (202) 347-3700 l
. . . . ~ . . . .. . .. - . -- ... - - . - - -
143 i
il how it was involved in the event, what you have l
,Lo- '
2 done with-it up'till now, what you plan to do with 3 it.next, 'and how you propose to make sure that 4 whatever you do next is done in a carefully j 5 controlled manner so that we get a record-of any i 6 problems that are found and what caused those [
6
'7 problems. !
8 HR. BEARD: I think documentation of the 9 status-of the thing and maybe even in terms of r 10 photographs where it might be appropriate or other 11 techniques that you might choose to use to make ,
i 12 sure.that~for equipment that the team could find' - ;
() 13 call'it releasable, that we really don't lose the l- 14 .overall intent, which_would be'to lose some 15 information related-to understanding the transient.
16 MR. .ROSSI: So where it's just 17 adjustments are going to.be nade, we need the i 18 record of the as-found status of the equipment and
[ 19 then, you know, what was ad ju s ted and where you 3
20 find an actual equipment malfunction or:something
- 21 broken or something that isn't working properly, a t
i 22 description-of what you. find, and where applicable l l- t i
L 23 we probably ought to have.a. photograph of it if i i
24 it's an actual piece of equipment that'is broken or '
l ,
ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC. -
(202) 347-3700 I o :
- 4 5
r , . .~, - - . - - v,- .r # v. - , . - - - - --,=e v . . < +
4 1
144 1 severed or whatever.
n L.] 2 Nou, Wayne, you may want to add to this 3 because you are clearly involved in this, also 4 because you are going to be involved along with us 5 in --
6 MR. BEARD: Before Wayne jumps in, let me .
7 inject another point we discussed earlier. If for 8 example for a piece of equipment your intent would 9 be to proceed into some mode of trouble-shootino to 10 determine the cause in order that you could .
11 establish the appropriate corrective actions, we 12 have heard some discussion about vendor
() 13 representatives, technical experts who would either 14 be here or would come. It would be_very helpful 15 when you put together this infornation that Ernie 16 just described if you would indicate those 17 activities that would be.under the supervision of 18 the, quote, expert, unquote. That would be very 19 helpful.
20 MR. ROSSI: Now, Wayne, do you have any 4
21 . thoughts on guidance that we ought to give to them 22 so that we are assured that you don't lose 23 information as to problens that occurred and were l
24 involved in this event?
i \m)s l ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
l (202) 347-3700
1 s
145 1 MR. Sil AFE R : Right.
T)
'\'
2 MR. ROSSI: That's our bottom line in 3 where we go next.with the equipnent is we don't l 4 want to lose any information in what you find and 5' problems with the' equipment that'cause the ovent or-6 ' cont ributed - to making it more severo than it might }
7 have been if you hadn't had the problems. ,
8 .MR. Sil A FE R : Any piece of equipnent that f 9 you identify'as-failed, broken, something, i
- 10 misoperated, whatever, is to- remain i n you r. hand s. .
1
-11 I n othe r w ord s ,- i t' is not to go to the vendor's t
12 shop without -- and you may have to do this, but I
() (13 think you have to sit'down with the team and
- 1.4 explain very carefully.how that's going to be 15 controlled such that it is retrievable.
t 16 ny that, I'm saying for example, you know, l 17 if you wanted to take the ~ governor ~off the main i
18 foedpump1No. l'and ship it out to.GE, before that 19 happens, I think that's where you are going -- !
20 MR.-ROSSI: We need to talk about how we +
I !
21 ~know its condition before it leaves here.
1 22 MR. . BEARD: I think a big part of that is ;
23 . traceability.' You:know, we have had some incidents .,
4 :
24 where either information was lost or tho l O.
i ACE FEDERAL. REPORTERS INC.
j (202) 347-3700 t
, w- - e p w, - -s,<-
l l
146 l l
1 traceability of the failed equipment was disrupted l
/"s 2 to the point where it was not real clear who had 3 the exact one versus a similar one. So it's very ;
4 important that at least traceability be maintained.
5 HR. SHAFER: Ernie, you may want to, ,
6 concerning the vendor program, if in fact it does
- 7 have to go to a vendor's site, dispatching somnone 8 HR. ROSSI: Pron the vendor branch?
9 That's a good point, yeah.
10 MR. BEARD: I think there is another 11 point too that is probably worth mentioning, and 12 that is there is obviously an interface between
()
13 this team that the executive director for 14 operations established and normal responsibilities 15 of the Region and the resident inspector. ,
16 As I understand it, the. scope of this 17 team is to determine basically what happened and ;
4 18 why, which includes root causes to the extent we 19 can find them.
l 20 Once the causes are determined, that 21 would sort of be some definition of the interface
- 22 with this aroup. The adequacy of the corrective
~
23 actions to address those causes or those failures I f- ,
24 think would probably fall in the jurisdiction of
! ACE PEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(?O2) 347-3700
t 147 1 the' Region.and the residents.
g 2 But we do see that the primary purpose is
~
3 to have a trouble-shooting procedure or approach l s
4 ,
adequately guided with technical assistance from f t
5 the-vendors where it's appropriate such that the
~
6 root cause can in fact be determined and not lost. 7 7 MR. WOOD: Do we want to establish a very l
8 formal procedure on laying out this documentation, l
9 action plans and control.and review and approval by 10 the team? Do we --
- 11 MR. BEARD: My' personal feeling is it r
12 does not have to have a great deal _of formality, ,
() 13 but I think it needs to be in writing. For example, 14 I would envision there would be some_ typed list of t :
i 15 the_ equipment - that you basically quarantined, if I f i
16 can use that term.- And besides that or key _to it .
- 17 on the-next page would be'the reason you chose to 18 cuarantine_that' piece of equipment, et cetera, et 19 - cetera, et. cetera, .in some type form that the team 20 - can_look at it:in order to make some. reasonable 21 : judgment as to whether,it could be and should_be l l
' 22 released at this' time. t 23 But other than typing-so.it~could be !
i y-) '24 - reproduced-and is legible, I don't see a great' deal.
( / --
ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC. ;
-(202): 347-3700 f
4 t
-e - ' , - - - - e -e -,+ "
148 i
-1 o 'f fornality myself.
~O 2 MR. ROSSI: Wayne, does that s ott nd i
3 satisfactory? ,
4 MR. SHAPER: I think I agree. Just so e
5 it's clearly understood nothing alips up. I would 6 'not like to see suddenly a piece of couipnent 7 disappear. So the onus will be on you as to how [
8 : formal you want to set it up for your staff. i 9 MR. ROSSI: And I think'anything that l 10 goes off-site to-a vendor, I believe we should tell 11 our vendor inspection branch about it and they ,
12 should have the option or we should have the option
() 13 of advising them that perhaps they.want to be there 14 when it is looked at at the vendor' shop.
4 15 MR.-BELL: I'm sure you want similar i 16 controls as to what he's asking for, because I'm j 17 sure you don't want~ to lose the information ei the r.
- 18 MM . WOOD: That's correct. And part of l .
I 19 the problem we are_having is trying to understand i 20 just.what is all involved in this scope, because we 21 -have' things that may have, for lack of a better 22 word, brok e J du ring the transient.
- 23 Por example, we had trouble getting the 24 turbine oncturning gear. Now, that seems a.Little ACE. FEDERAL REPORTERS'INC. ;!
]
.(202) 347-3700 N
-, - . - - + , _, - _ , , ~ _ , . , . , , - , . , , , , . ,
149 1 obvious to me that that doesn't belong in the
2 framework of what we are t a lk i n g about. And yet if 3 I read the CAL, it was equipnent that malfunctioned 4 during the incident.
5 And while that is clearly on one side and 6 the MSIVs are clearly on the other side, we have 7 some other' equipment that may not be so cut and dry 8 as to what side of the fence they fall on. And so, 9 you know, without some kind of an understanding or 10 agreement, we may be holding up a lot more work 11 than really is intended to be held up.
12 EM R . DEARD: I think that, you know, the p) g_ 13 team would certainly not like to hold you up any 14 more than is absolutely necessary. That's the 15 first thing that ought to be made clear consistent 16 with the objective of not losing any evidence.
17 However, I think that it needs to be done 18 in a systematic way. By that I mean the process of 19 deciding what could be released and what couldn't 20 be. I think your example of-the problem with the 21 main turbine on the turning gear is probably the 22 kind of thing if you oive un the information that 23 Ernie has outlined here, my personal assessment is
(- 24 that would probably get a very, very rapid release.
(.)g ACE PEDERAL REPORTERS INC. :
(202) 347-3700
150 1 But I think the decision to make that 2 release needs --
can only be made systematically if 3 the information like he described is presented.
4 MR. WOOD: Okay.
5 MR. JACKIW: I think John in having a 6 problem, should he list everything that has 7 happened, and we make the decision if it affected 8 what was involved in the transient? ,
9 MR. BEARD: My personal opinion is I 10 understand you folks have a certain list of 11 equipment that you have chosen to quarantine. -
12 MR. WOOD: That's right. But the turning
() 13 gear would not be on that list. <
i 14 MR. JACKIW That 's correct.
15 MR. SII A F E R : Maybe we could even get this 16 chanced so that what the CAL would b 'e saying was 17 that the equipment that malfunctioned, okay, and 18 that is the equipment that relates to those systems 19 that were involved -- no.
20 MR. ROSSI: We better be a little careful 21 because we can turn up with finding a piece of 22 equipment that we think now isn't related but three -
23 days from now we find out it it is related.
j 24 .HR. DEARD: I think that's the whole 7-]s L.
! ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
i (202) 347-3700
7 - .
151 1 purpose of the freeze. The decision of what's
.O 2 related and'what's not related, it's intended the 3 team would make that assessment and be responsible
< '4 for that decision. And in othe r words , I would
?
5 _envis' ion that.as a re spons i bis utility, you folks 9
6 would.>come up with a list of all equipment that had 4 7 malfunctioned, put it under quarantine and go l I
8 through some process like at least for this event 9 like we just_ described in order to request a 10 -release.
4 11 Because of the question of who makes a 4
12 decision of what's related to the event and what's
() 13 not and this, that and the other, it has to be in a i
j 14 very systematic and careful way. -
15 Mt . MYERS: Probably what we would not a .
' 16 have done or would certeinly do to a different
]
- 17 level of detail, lik e the turning. gear to Aux Peed 4
18 pu mp: is-the area which~you said in writing describe-19 the.next actions that a re going to take pla ce and i
i 20 how the capturing of everything will be guaranteed l 21 in the case of the turning gear, our maintenance 22 organization standard trouble-shooting activity we 23 would probably_ cons ide r a dequate. Certainly not by
. 24 a long' shot with the Aux Feed pumps.
- ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC. !
(202) 347-3700 ,
-i
, , . - + + yr -er-u-- y y>
I e v w+ p-- --
e- w . , - - - - , _-
152 1 MR. BEARD: We are not arguing that point O
'~
- 2 at all.
3 MR. ROSSI: You know, one other thing we 4 didn't talk about is on this list, another category 5 ought to be their reasons why something is so 6 unrelated to the event that perhaps it doesn't need 7 to be on the list. If we have you r reasons as to B why something is related to such a small 3 xtent to 9 the event, we don't have to have these controls on 10 i t, then we can look at that and deal with that.
11 The turning gear nay come under.that. Does that 12 s ou n d reasonable to you people from the Region?
(~s 13 MR. SHAFER: Yes.
()
14 MR. ROSSI: It's a little bit of a 15 compromise. There must be a list of stuff you havn 16 quarantined, so to speak, that you are p repared to 17 justify as not sufficiently related to the event 18 that we need to maintain tioht control over it and 19 we could perhaps dispense with that list. Wayne?
20 MR. LANNING: I'm just wondering, don't 21 you have some sort of formal maintenance work order 22 request you are going to fill out on each piece of ,
23 this equipment?
3 24 MR. WOOD: Very definitely.
(G ACE PEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
_ . .. ._ _m s __ _ _ - . . . . _-_ __-._m.- -
_ _ . _ . _ _ . _ _ - . ~ . .
h I
153 1 MR. ROS SI's . Does that include the turning i ?C) -
2 gear?.
4
~3 MR. WOODr. Yos.
,. 4 MR. LANNING: Everything in this plant I 5 suppose.is controlled by this kind.of work order.
i l> 6 MR. WOODS. There is a work request which ,
i 7 is transformed into a msintenance work order, and i .
l t
8 ' there is no activities done out there without a e 4
i f 9 maintenance work - orde r. ;
t
} 10 MR..O'CONNOR: Other-than minor packing 1 11 : a r. j u s t m e n t s . !
i 12 MR. LANNING: Is.it practical this-may Pe i>() 13 .one way.in looking at the~ type of acti vit ies that 14 'is'coing to take place on this equipment?
i .
15 MR. WOOD - Certainlp. ,
4
- ^
16 MR. SHAFER: How many: maintenance. work )
1 I l_ 17 requests 1are we talking about? .
! 18 MR. O ' CO NNOR . 'Right now? You mean just 19 for this event? I'm not sure how many are :
[ 20 generated;rinht now. On a guess. just on the
!, 21 systems-that we have listed-so far that.we have 22 cuarantined, there~is probably 15 or 20. l
- 7 23 But all we- have done in just say nobody 24 can touch.the feedpumnar oka"? When'we actually
' ACE' FEDERAL REPO RTERS INC..
-( 202) 347-3700 !
I 8
.s I
. - , , , , . . . , - , . - - , - . . . , . . , . . - . - ,, , -~ ,- ,}
154 1 get to the feedpump, the guy working on the speed s
2 control or the governor vill hsve one work order.
3 If somebody else.is on the oil system, he will have 4 another work order.
5 So this number of work orders isn't 6 necessarily the key to it. It's just, you know, 7 there may end up being fifteen on the main f eedpun) 8 alone because each particular shop will have his 9 own work order.
10 I & C has one to do one specific item and 11 that's all they are allowed to do in the scope of 12 th e i r w or'< . In other words, if he gets into the
() 13 speed' control circuit with permission to 14 trouble-shoot the speed pick-ups and he finds 15 something wrong with some other part of it, the 16 high speed stop, he's not allowed to work on that.
17 Another work order is generated to give permission 18 for that. So we do carefully track the work that's 19 done.
20 MR. ROSSI: That will help in t racing 21 through what they find and what they did to correct j
22 it too.
l 23 MR. O'CONNOR: We have to be careful on
, g3 24 the documentation on the back side of the work l \. /
l ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
155 1 request where the indi vidua l worker documents his 2 time and what was actually done. We probably have 3 to be very careful with the cognizant engineers to 4 nake sure that is very specific and not, you know, 5 'found fuse blosn, replaced fuse, back to normal.
6 MR. ROSSI: !!a d e several adjustments.
7 That 's what w e are worried about.
8 MR. BEARD: System now works.
9 MR. KOSLOFF: It might be of value to 10 consider the possibility of using their 11 computerized program of listing and actually printing 12 out maintenance work orders. That might be helpful
( 13 in this listing process. I don't know.
14 MR. BEARD: I think a ll. .of the discussion 15 I ha ve heard in the last five minutes or so is more 16 of suggestions of possible ways to f acilitate 17 providing the types of information that Ernie 18 suggested earlier. And I'm not sure we' ought to go 19 too deep into telling you how to do something 20 versus telling you what we think the team would 21 need.
22 MR. ROSSI: We want to~nake sure that i 23 when pieces of equipment that are related to this i
e' 24 event are worked on or adjusted, that there is a I
s.)
j ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
l (202) 347-3700
156 I 1 record kept of the as-found condition so that we b 2 can then say we know what the root cause of the 3 problem was. So it's more of a -- you are going to 4 have to. concentrate more on having records of the 5 as-found condition than perhaps you would havs in 6 the past.
7 MR. O'CONNOR: You are not really saying 8 9e cannot work on it ri ght now?
9 MR. .ROSSI: No. We are saying we want to 10 see how you are going to do that before you work on 11 it.
12 MR. WOOD: And I don't think we have any
() 13 problem in handling those systems or those 14 components in that fashion. What we have had 15 difficulty with is understanding this iten of 16 putting things in abeyance and just how far that 17 went.
18 And I think the discussion here actually 19 is telling us that it went farther than perhaps we 20 initially implied. Things like the turning gear, 21 I'm not quite sure we would have allowed 22 maintenance activities to proceed on_that.
23 MR. O'CONNOR: See, it's already fixed.
f3 24 I had to fix that to get a vacuum back.
V ACE PEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
157 1 MR. BEARD: My understanding of the 2 intent of this thing is the tean would make the 3 decision of what's related and what's not related
.4 in order to assure that there is some independent 5 systematic assessment.
6 MT . ROSSI: We look at your reasoning of 7 why it is not related.
8 MR. BEARD: But I think in the situation, 9 the e xa mp le you brought u p, the turning gear, that 10 4culd be a very rapid tura-around item. But I 11 think the intent should be the way it is written on 12 the ~ paper and that is anything that malfunctioned
() 13 immediately before, during or immediately after the 14 transient is the kind of thing you want on the at 15 least preliminary cuarantine list.
16 MR. WOOD: I think our quarantine list 17 will have to grow after we leave this meeting and 18 we will get that word back to the station. I don't 19 feel uncomfortable that what we may have done in 20 this interim is anything that would have 21 significant impact, and we can capture what was 22 .done on the MWO process. But perhaps the list of 23 activities thct transpired until the thing was put 24 into abeyance has increased.
(^}
%s ACE PEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
158 1 MR. MYERS: Why don't you just run down --
V(y 2 I think you are making a little more out of the 3 turning gear than needs --
4 HR. BEARD: One other point before you 5 get into the actual list here, we recently had 6 another e xp er i en ce with another 3 & W designed 7 plant where some equipment was gone into to check 8 something after a failure of a similar piece of 9 equipment just to see if it was all right, and in 10 that situation through the maintenance procedures, 11 trained and experienced people went in and made a 12 measurement which when the manu f actu re rs '
() 13 . representatives arrived on the site the next day 14 they were told it was the wrong way to do things.
15 And the utility I don't be li e v e was at 16 fault in this, but the manufacturer's 17 representative brought additional expertise and 18 additional knowledge to the scene and said that's 19 not the way it ought to be done, but the point is 20 that because he found things out of adjustment as 21 he perceived it by his neasurement t e ch n i q u e , he 22 then made corrective adjustments and there was a 23 tremendous amount of information lost in a very
- g. 24 important safety relatpd system.
(
ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
l 159 1 That was not disastrous, but it would
.s d 2 have been extrenely helpful to know how this piece 3 of equipment worked. So the reason for relating 4 that incident to you, it's so recent that when y ou 5 plan'on doing trouble-shooting activities on key 6 items and are anticipating involving the vendor's 7 ronresentatives, you may want to consider at what 8 point you bring the vendor in.
9 MR. ROSSI: If you are considering bringing 10 the vendor in, you probably ought to have him here 11 before you touch the equipment because y o-1 may lose 12 information because he feels he knows how to make
() 13 measurem3nts and adjustments and determine the 14 as-fotnd condition and that if your people do it 15 before he gets here, they are not going to accep t 16 the validity of what he finds, which is I think the 17 case we have.
18 MR. BEARD: And recognize, we are 19 thint ing along the line.of the uti.lity is doing an 20 outstanding job; there is no doubt i n enr nind about 21 that. Ba t the individual who comes from ths vendor-22 shop does represent a technical expert in a 23 particular item and so there is that benefit.
24 MR. WOOD: We have no problem with that ACE PEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700 9
160 1 at all. The list -- I didn't mean to scare anyone r ~r
(_) 2 here. There are eleven items that we have put on 3 to this list.
4 Very simply, the main feedoumps, the 5 SFRCS system, the Aax Feed pumps, th e Main Steam 6 Isolation Valves, SP7A, which is the Startup 7 Feedpump valve.
8 One that we have not talked about, the 9 source range NIs, I don't believe any of your 10 discussions w ou ld have covered the NIs- Jia it, 11 Bill?
12 MR. O'CONNOR: We had one inoperable
() 13 prior to the trip and immediately after the trip, 14 one of then was not functioning. It started up 15 when I & C went into the cabinet, but it was an 16 anomaly we couldn't explain.
17 MR. BELL: So you had no source range 18 indication?
19 MR. O'CONNOR: Not for.several minutes.
20 MR. BEARD: You hsve two selrce range 21 channels at this plant?
22 MR. O'CONNOR: One had been declared 23 inoperable and they were working on it before the trip.
p) x.
2%
ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
1 161 1
1 MR. BEARD: And the second one happened !
f%
2 post-trip?
3 MR. O'CONNOR: Yes.
4 MR. BEARD: Are you intending to i n clu de ,
5 that in your updated sequence of e vents?
6 MR. MYERS: Yes .
7 MR. WOOD: The next one, the turbine 8 by-pass valve,,we have one turbine by-pass valve 9 that broke the yoke off. Now, again, that has not 10 been discussed in the sequence of events, but.that
- 11 was a failure that we will need to correct.
12 .R.
M BEARD: When did that fail?
() 13 MR. O'CONNOR: We don't know whether it 14 failed on the trip or when we reestablished turbine 15 by-pass ~ cooling several hours later. It's hard to j 16 tell. You know, it could have: failed initially on- l 17 the trip when the valves all'went wide open, or it 18 could have occurred when we reestablished cooling 19 later.
20 Right now we don't know when it occurred.
21 Hopefully we'can get some sequence of events to 22 figure it out, but right now since we have t
23 ' essentially roped it-off and no one has been near 24 it,fwe. haven't been able to t ra ck it'down.
ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS.INC.
(202) 347-3700-L
162 1 MR. WOOD: The next one was the PORV, 2 Powe r Operated Relief Valve. Main steam safety 3 valvis, I don't think we hrought that in the 4 sequence. We had one main steam safety valve that 5 didn't resent until it was 900 pounds, and we would 6 like to have them rescat before we get to 960.
7 MR. BEARD: You had a valve that 8 misbehaved in the same way the last week or so, 9 didn't y ea , on a different event?
10 MR. O'CONNOR: if e seem to always have one 11 blow down too far at some time or another.
12 MR.-BEARD: C's this the sano one that
() 13 misbehaved' I can't tell. There is 18 blowing and 14 you-doa't know whi ch one stayed open.
15 MR. WOOD: We can tell them --
out of 16 nine of them, we can tell it's in a group of nine, i
17 but we can't tell which of the group of nina.
18 MR. O'CONNOR: We know which steamline it 19 was on, but to isolate which particular valve did
-20 it, it's virtually impossible.
4 21 MR. WOOD: And it's a situation where you 22 lift them once and they rescat, you lift them again, 23 they rescat, maybe the third time, maybe the forth 2% time they lift, they don't necessarily r e ss e a t at ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
is l J. I 1
- 163 !
1 the'same pressure that th ey dl d the first two times.
=
) 2 MR. BELL: You are not talking about 3 conse cuti ve lifting of the valve. Y ou are talking
] 4 about maybe this week it works okay, next week it
, 5 works okay, and the third week --
6 MR. WOOD: I'm saying during the
.7 transient, you may lift.the set of safety valves i
- 8 four different-times in.a span of twenty minutes or i
9 so.
10 MR. O'CONNOR: When the MSIVs go shut, J -- 1 1 th ah ' s - y ou r p r e s su r e control. So th'e 1050 reliefs
- . 12 lift'the most. But.the hotter they get, they seem ;
() 11 3 to' lift earlier and earlier and earlier.
~ 14 MR. BELL: When yout establish feedback 15 -~
steam generator, did the safties lift again?
i 16 MR. O'CONNOR: No.
l 17 MR. WOOD: We then have valves:AP-599 and 1-
- 18 608, which they are actually part of the Aux-Peed 13 water system, but we-bring those as a specific line j
. 20 _ item here. And then we have the SBDS system which 7 21 - had some' problems in transmission. ;
- j. '22 MR. BEARD: Would you repeat,that. ,
i
'23 M R .- O'CONNOR: _The SPDS. '
24 MR. BEARD: Safety Parameter Display ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
\
t
._ . . - ~ - -
.,m .- - - . , -. . ., , -- -, .y + , . - - - _,_.-t._-
_ . . - - ___. _ __ _ . . _ .. .. . __ . ., ._=
- 164 1 System.
O 2 MR. O'CONNOR: Saf ety Parameter Display 3 'Syste m. - And that is the list of equipment that had 4 malfunctioned or anomalies associated with them 5 .that we felt'were even potentially involved with r
6 -the flow of events.
7 MR. BEARD: I could see that, y ou know, 8 without having reviewed it, _that some of the items 9 on that list could have the potential for very 10 rapid release.
11 MR. MYERS: What I wrote do4n was ,
t
-12 essentia11y'what we need to do is, especially in
-( ) 13 those areas where we could p roceed rapidly would be,
', f 14 like you said,. identify the equipment and its l 15 possible connection to the event, why we could F
]
16 consider it -- or why we did-consider it frozen, 17 and then in the area, some nonrelated areas, try to 2
18 justify some complete release, you know, early on,-
19 and in those cases where we don't, 'then go'into
.20 exactly what actions were taken during shutdown, a
.21 the, documentation to da te, and then develop in each 22 case the-plans for future activity-and the 23 p roced u ra l control of as-found conditions and any 1
- 24 changes thereto.
l- ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC. ,
(202) 347-3700 '
i
165 1 I think we will probably have to use
, k ')
2 procedural control. I don't r e a lly know any other 3 mechanism that we can could -- administrative 4 control mechanisr. that we could use that would 5 provide us the -- more of the guarantee that we get G all that s tu f f back .
7 MR. ROSSI: That you get the information 8 on the as-found condition of the equipment?
9 MR. MYERS: Yeah.
10 MR. BEARD: I think any time you start 11 talking about a fact finding trip like this and a 12 freeze order on plant equipment, any plant trip you
() 13 will talk about, there will be~ a few pieces of 14 syster that happen to fail coincidental that aren't 15 related to the_ transient. I think it's unfortunate 16 we have to include those in the umbrella, but I 17 don't see any way around it myself, and I'm sure we 18 will try to work and oet you as quick a release as 19 possible.
20 MR. MYERS: You will be involved in the 21 operator interviews. Probably by that time, by the 22 completion of those, you will have essentially 23 .T a cq u e Lingenfelter's, the technical section's 24 evaluation of the sequence as they knew it, the ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
. . . . . , . - --. ~ . , - . . - . - . - . . . . . .
166 l
1 operational aspect of the sequence as we knew it,
-o- 2 'and.the operators' interface. .Probably by tomorrow, i
!. 3 midtomorrow, we could come in with a couple of the 4 areas we thought would not'be.related and you would 5 :have a' pretty good drawing of-the line down what 6 you are. interested in and what you are not interested 7 'i n .
i 8 g MR..ROSSI: I th i nk that's pretty mu ch ,
3 9 the-way we saw things when we have discussed them l- 10 'amongst ourselves.
]
-11 MR. MYERS: We would br'ing these in with 12 a level of documentation just to try-to-justify i
O. 13 two e-14
- MR.
- . SHAPER: Ha/-I-ask,. is the' list of 15 work activities that-wasLconducted prior to the a
- j. 16 request, the hold,Lis that list-being made up?
a I
17 'MR. WOODS Yes, it is.
i i 18 MR. BEARD - Do'you have any idea what i.
l, 19 sort of time frame we are looking at for recei ving
! ~
.20 that' list?
g 21 liR . WOOD: Right-Enow I don't have a good
7 / 22 -handle for it. I talked to,the maintenance 23 'eagineer earlier, and he' indicated several items
. . i 24 were done. .I 'd o n ' t know that the entire scope is
- v ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) .347-3700 i
167 1 ' w r a p p e d -- u p . We.can find out very early tomorrow ,
A 2 when that would be complete.
3 MR. SHAFER: One thing that would not 4 show.up'on there would be in fact that work was 5 accomplished onEthe two valves 599 and 608 in that ,
6 they.were manually opened during or right.after the 7 incident.
8 MR. WOOD: That's-correct.
9 RMR. BEARD: I know that w ould be part of l '10 the se.quence oft events.
~
11 HR. SHAFER: Absolutely. But in 12 ' .recogniz ing I think we qualified that very carefully -
I) 13 -by saying, and'you did this. morning, that with 14 regards to plant safety-the decision'is made they -
15 have:to do something.with that equipment, then they 16 should do so.
17 HR. WIDEMAN: I don't know'they did any 18 maintenance: on i t .- All ther. did was'take it off 19
~
~the back seat so -the l valve would .open.
20 PIR . MYERS: What JT is saying, we will 21 show that in aD seq uence oo f ' events manually opening.
22 MR. BELL:- JBut we ~ would need to know i f.
23 they :went into the two valves and.found.the torque 1
24 switches were set too' low and couldn ' t : work off the ACE. FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202):347-3700 4 L
-- .-. .. - .. - - . ~.- . ~. .. . .. . ,
168 e
1 closed seat, because the t o rqu e switches took the N[h
^~'
2 motor out of. service. We would need to know that,
=
3 1.think.
4 MR. WIDEMAN: I would think that would be 5 part of'the evaluation. We identified it as a 6 problem, and if we do an evaluation and determine, l 7 you know, that the~ switch settings were either too
~8 high orttoo low and they need to be adjusted, that' 9 would"be-the corrective action to prevent i
1 10 l recurrence, which we'would-get your concurrence on
~
11 and then do ~the activity.
12 MR. .BSARD: Does.that give 'you some
) 13 . resolution-of the question you brought in of _
14 cetting r e li e f on this?
15 MR .- WOOD: I think that gives us a good 16 direction.- I think it does put in abeyance more I
} 17 perhaps than we had anticipated originally, and I j 18 think-there was some misunderstanding maybe on our 19 part, like again to use the turbine turning gear, 20 for instance, I think we have been work ing on 'that 21 or.would have wo rk e d on it. I don't know that we 22 have actually done work, bu t it's'my understanding 23 that should be on'the list.
24 HR. MYERS: I think;there will be very 73
\J ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700 .,
4
. _ . ._ _ . ~ .
169 1 few itens. By tomorrow when we are ready to take a 2 crack at it, we will list any others that w oul d 3 have ever fallen into that category. I don't think 4 there is any.
5 MR. JACKIW: J oh n , I think you nicht 6 consider naybe some of the maintenance proced2res 7 that when you actually get into some of the work on 8 equipment that malfunctioned, maybe have some kind 9 of a special order attached to the procedure for 10 the maintenance procedure for the people and just 11 make them aware that if they find any problem, the 12 as-found condition, they need to follow some sort I 13 of control of documenting it.
, 14 MR. WOOD: I think we can put sone hold 15 witness points that will trigger that type of thino.
16 MR. BEARD: I think 11so f rom wha t I hear 17 you miaht have some procedures for certain 18 adjustnents that are considered not safety related 19 and not involved that usually you do in a less 20 formal manner than a tech spec or safety related.
21 What you might consider, because they were related 22 to the event, treating them temporarily as with all 23 the tender loving care you would as if it were say
('
24 a tech spec or safety related item this one time.
ACE PEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
170 1 But that's really up to you folks. I'm just
'# 2 throwing it out as a thought.
3 MR. ROSSI: I think that's probably all 4 we can talk about richt now. We are going to talk 5 some more amongst ourselves now that we heard what 6 you have to say so we will be better prepared to 7 acidress this issue as we proceed along.
8 MR. WIDEMAN: I guess I have a question 9 that's'aside from this issue as far as like these 10 meetings go. Maybe I missed it,in the beginning.
11 Are these transcripts going to be available to us?
12 MR.-ROSSI: Yes. .
() 13 MR. WILSMAN: .Okay. I was wondering 14 whether or not --
I'm trying to write some of this 15 stuff done --
should I bring.a tape recorder.
16 MR. BEARD: Recognize als o there is a 17 turn around time in getting the transcript.
18 MR. ROSSI: Two days.
19 MR. BEARD: If you need something tonight 20 or shorter than that. turn around time, notes 21 probably are appropriate.
22 MR. ROSSI: I'm taking some notes on 23 things that I want to -- I mean, you know, you are
~s 24 going to have to: t a's e n o t e s because the notes are Nj ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700 t
171 1 probably what you are going to mostly rely on, and
(~') 2 you will go back on the transcript to make sure 3 your notes are right or if there is a question on --
4 .MR. MYERS: Steve had been given 5 direction to take copious notes, and I think he's 6 looking for --
7 MR. WIDEMAN - --
a way out.
8 HR. MYERS: A borderline condition.
9 MR. ROSSI: The nice thing in having the 10 transcript, it's'a-way out from us taking copious J
11 notes.
12 MR. BEARD: Try to hit for the big stuff
() 13 instead of all the details.
14 HR. ROSSI: -It helps considerably.
15 (Thereupon, a recess was taken at 5:35 16 o' clock p.m.)
17 - - - - -
18 19 20 21 22
'23 g, 24 y
. ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS INC.
(202) 347-3700
C o r r'e c ti o n or chance and reason therefor pace Line J ]& s o f g[Q 4- kW$hhRw Clu ve. . IJ a R "z u ~"s k a,~f u tw.(f; )
~
/62 / s'
/t,3 14 % A % de"aLun 1+" kl lade hdl,"(6) 16 3 IC % h ths" , M .a kV" / w " (n. ,enu; 16 3 To "S s bs" AJ.L & "E F f>s " (aLc ~cQ l'1o IC " clote " gLtJA ,Q "dm,v " (A, civred) <
O e
d I
Is.
- o Page No. [ DATE 7- 8[ SIGNATURE /b/ '53IS ,.
~~~~~~~^
______ _ ___ _ . . - . . . - . - .