ML20129B460
| ML20129B460 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse  |
| Issue date: | 06/19/1985 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20129B463 | List: |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8507290165 | |
| Download: ML20129B460 (41) | |
Text
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1 1
BEFORE THE FACT FINDING TASK FORCE 2
OF THE MUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 Re:
5 Davis-Besse event 6
of Juna 9,
1985 7
8 P R O C E E D I N G S 9
10 Proceedings before the Nuclear Regulatory 11 Commission Fact Finding Task Force in regard to the 12 aforementioned event, held at Conference Room 209, (k/
13 Davis-Besse Nuclear Plant, Oak Harbor, Ohio, 14 commencing on Wednesday, June 19, 1985, at 9:55 15 o' clock a.m.
4 16 17 18 19 20 21.
22 yh A
P U
T RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
2 1
PRSSENT:
2 3
J.
T.
Beard 4
E.
Rossi 5
Walt Rogers 6
Ned Choules 7
Nick Jackiw 8
John Wood 9
Steve Wideman 10 Jack DeSando 11 Tom Isley 12 Mike Borysiak 13
- Larry Grime 14 Dennis Mominee 15 Jim Helle 16 Mstt Raynes 17 Tom Hiss 18 Phil.Hildebrandt 19 20 l
21 22 23 (3
24 m)
RUNFOLA.& ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION 6
.m-,
r
i i
3 1
Wednesday Morning session 2
June 19, 1985 3
9:55 o' clock a.m.
4 5
P R O C E E D I N G S 6
7 MR. ROSSI:
Why don't we begin the meeting.
8 What we're going to do is talk about the action 9
plans for the NI-1 source range channel, which is 10 one action plan, and the NI-2 count rate level-11 indication failure analysis was the second of your 12 two plans.
And I guess the stenographer has copies 13 of both of these.
14 And, again, what we're going toydo-is give i
15 you our comments.
We'll try to distinguish between 16 what is a comment we're just offering 's possible 17 consideration by you for help based on, you know, 18 what-we see in here and things we feel fairly 19 strongly about.
And we'll distinguish those.
20 I would like to reitera te that when your 21 work is done on all these-action plans,_that at some 22 point in-time, there's going.to have to be agreement 23 on what the root cause is, and that the corrective
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'24 action has fixed it.
So you ought to do whatever RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION l
4 1
you_can do to make sure that you don't go through a 2
lot of work and not be able to identify what the 3
root problem is.
4 I think that's particularly true of some 5
of these source range problems where apparently you 6
had problems f or a number of years but that may not 7
have ever gotten corrected.
I think tha t's going to S
be looked at very. closely at the end of your effort 9
here to make sure that there is a high degree of 10 assurance that this stuff is going to work properly 11 in the future.
12 Walt, do you have anything to add to that, 13 because tha t's going to be mostly the Region 3 14 concern, that it's going to be looked at very i
15 carefully.
16 MR. ROGERS:
Getting into the root cause 17 and making sure tha t's resolved, definitely a big 18 point.
19 MR. ROSSI:
With that, why don't we begin 20 with do you have a preference on which one you 21 want to begin with?
22 MR. WOOD:
No, I don't think so.
And let 23 me just introduce the people who will be
/~1 24 communicating with the team here primarily.
We have
(_)
RUNPOLA &' ASSOCIATES (614)445-3477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
5 1
Jack DeSando, Tom Isley and Mike Borysiak.
The 7U 2
three of them together will be addressing questions 3
on both plans.
4 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
5 MR. BEARD:
The lead person responsible is 6
who?
7 MR. WOOD:
The lead person on NI-l is Mike 8
Borysiak.
The lead: person on NI-2.is Jack DeSando.
9 MR.
BEARD:
Okay.
Thank you.
10 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
Why don't we start then 11 with NI-1.
Mike Borysiak prepared this plan.
Why 12 don't you first start by telling us what your O
k/
13 position is with the company and what you r -- a 14 little bit about your background.
15' MR. BORYSI'K:
Okay.
My position A
16 presently is associate nuclear engineer.
I work 17 for the electrical and control systems division of 18 Facility Engineering downtown.
My past background i
19 was seven years.at the plant in I&C, which when I 20 transferred downtown I was the I&C engineer at that 21 point in time.
j 22 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
J.T.,
do you want to 23 start with your comments?
l 24 MR. BEARD:
My style of reviewing RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION b
i l
l 6
1 documents such as this is more going down through it l
G 2
and reading for significant items, not that they 3
necessarily need changed, just things I note as I go 4
through.
5 I guess the first one I'd like to mention 6
just as an observation on my p+rt is that.under Page 7
2, you identified, it appears, five hypotheses as to 8
the root cause.
And I see those generally Z
9 characterized as an intermittent problem with one 10 module within the channel, sources of inducement 11 from outside the channel, and the possibility of 12 ground loops between systems.
And then the fifth J
13 one has to do with the lengths of the cables.
14 Could I ask you to elaborate just a second 15 on the fourth one of what you had in mind when you 16 say intermittent spiking problem caused from ground 17 loops between systems as to what systems or channels 4
4 18 or whatever you might be referring to there or.why 19 that's on the list?
20 MR. BORYSIAK:
Okay.
Back in '79 and '80 21 we did some extensive testing with respect to 22 isolating ground loops and trying to eliminate them, 23 which was documented in a report to the NRC, I
/~T 24 believe.
Since then, we have made some
(>
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION 4
i
7 1
modifications, and I don't know at this present time 2
whether we may have inadvertently introduced some 3
ground loops that we had in the past where we tried 4
to e li n i'n a t e in the past.
i 5
So we'd like to take a look at that and 6
see if, in fact, we have or have not induced some 7
problems by adding equipment specifically with the 8
RPS in r e s.p e c t to adding the ARTS system which I just done shortly 9
believe was done about 10 afterwards, I believe.
11 MR. BEARD:
I see.
7 12 MR. BORYSIAK:
Tske a look at that from Os _
13 that standpoint.
14 MR. BEARD:
So you're interested really in 15 changes that may have been induced since you did 4
16 this ground analysis back in the '79 '80 time frame.
17 Thank you.
18 MR. ROSSI:
Did you see a significant 19 change in the' reliability of the instruments after 20 those changes were made from before?
21 MR. BORYSIAK:
No, sir.
22 MR. BORYSIAK:
-Just a possible' hypothesis.
23 MR. ROSSI:
Possible hypothesis?
()
24 MR. BORYSIAK:
Right.
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
a 8
1 MR.
BEARD:
That gives me a better 2
understanding of what you had.
Okay.
Now, over on 3
I guess it's the action plan per se,.the work steps, 4
Mike, I balieve you said earlier that your 5
experiences at.one time you were the I&C engineer 6
for the plant?
7 MR. BORYSIAK:
That is correct.
8 MR. BEARD:
Could you give us a little bit 9
more information on your formal education and 10 training in the area of ins t rume n ta t ion control?
11 MR. BORYSIAK:
Okay.
My degree is from 12 the University _of Toledo.
Received that in 1978.
12 MR. BEARD:
What was your degree?
14 MR. BORYSIAK:
BSEE.
15 MR. BEARD:
Oh, BSEE.
I was somehow under 16 the understanding you were a nuclear engineer.
17 MR. WOOD:
To clarify that, J.T.,
we've 18 had a classification change in our engineering 19 series, and we've denoted people in the nuclear 20 mission as nuclear angineers, which is maybe a 21 misnomer as far as formal educational background,
[
22 but it's to denote we're in the nuclear mission.
l I
23 MR. BEARD:
I'm just trying'to unde rs ta nd
()
24 his background.
That's all.
Go ahead.
Is there l
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 l
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION t
I l
i 9
1 anything else?
2 MR. BORYSIAK:
Would you repeat your 3
second part of the question?
4 MR. BEARD:
I'm just curious about a J
5 general area of tne degree of involvement in this 6
troubleshooting effort of those people who may have 7
knowledge of the specific design considerations for l
8 a pulse type ins trumen ta tion channel, and so I'm 9
trying to probe and see if you are the one that has 10 this experience by virtue of your education, design 11 work or those kinds of things, or if you don't, 12 who's going to provide that.
I'm not picking on you 13 as an individual, I want you to understand.
14 MR. BORYSIAK:
Right.
No, personally 15 the only experience I have with pulse type 16 instrumen ta tion is with respect to on-the-job 17 training here at this plant.
W3 are going to 18 request B&W's assistance, and we have already done 19 that, to aid us in our troubleshooting.
20 MR. ROSSI:
Are they going to be here for 21 the troubleshooting of these NI channels?
I mean, i
22 the experts with this similar type of equipment that 23 taight have a perspective of how it's worked, what l
O 24 kind of problems-they've had on other plants?
l
%)
l RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
10 1
MR. BORYSIAK:
We have not at this point 2
in time requested them to be on site.
We have, in 3
fact, talked to them previously about our ideas of 4
how we want to go about troubleshooting these 5
problems.
They have concurred with our action plans 6
at this point in time.
Depending upon some of the 7
data that we obtain, we'll be in contact with them, 8
letting them know what we have found.
9 At that point in time, they will we 10 will make a decision whether we want them to come on 11 site and to give us a hand if further 12 troubleshooting is a problem.
13 MR. ROSSI:
Well, I make an observation 14 that this equipment, you've had kind of a history of 15 having problems with it.
And you might really want l
16 to think very hard about whether you should have 17 vendor involvement right up front or involvement of 18 other experts with this particular kind of equipment 19 that might give you a perspective of generic 20 problems that they've seen on other plants and so 21 forth.
22 That, you know, if it appears, you've had 23 a history of problems with the equipment at the
()
24 plant, that now may be the time to get vendor RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
i 11 1
involvement right up front.
And if you do that, you 2
ought to have it in your action plan in my opinion.
3 MR. BEARD:
Right.
Just as an 4
administrative aside, I believe you said sometning, 5
Mixe, that would have been useful had it been 6
written in the plan and that is that you have 7
consulted with the B&W I&C experts, if that's the 8
proper term, in the development of this plan, and 9
they have, after it's over, concurred in it if that 10 was the case.
11 MR.
BORYSIAK:
That is true.
12 MR. BSARD:
I mean, that would be a 13 standard question that I think you're likely to hear 14 on other action plans.
That's an administrative 15 aspect.
But I've personally had a lot of experience 16 with pulses, pulse instrumentation, both in the 17 nuclear field and in the radar field and with 18 intermittent problems.
And it's not the kird of 19 problem you want to be your first problem.
It's 20 tricky.
21 My experience is that experience is a dear 22 teacher, and design experience is very important.
23 At least tha t's. my personal view.
So I'd just like
()
24 to add to Dr. Rossi's comment that you ought to I
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
12 1
think you would like to consider the degree to which 2
you get the experts involved right up front.
3 MR. ROSSI:
And where you have vendor 4
involvement or outside experts up front, that you 5
really ought to get that into your action plans, 6
because I think tha t tha t's something that may be 7
important to you as you go through this and making 8
sure that when we get to the end, that everyone has 9
a good feeling that everything possible has been 10 done to identify the root cause and maxe sure that 11 the problems don't recur at unacceptable rates in 12 the future.
f' k-}
13 MR. BEARD:
And recognize also that we're 14 not saying you have to go to B&W.
We're saying that or would want some additional 15 we think you need 16 expertise in this particula r area.
You may choose 17 to go to an outside consultant.
We're not trying to 18 push you onto a particular company at all.
But you 19 did mention that you talked to B&W.
Do you :.a p p e n 20 to remember offhand, Mike, who you spoke to there?
21 MR.
80RYSIAK:
A gentlemen by the name of 22 Paul Mamola.
23 MR. BEARD:
Can you spell that name?
}
24 MR. ISLEY:
M-a-m-o-1-a.
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
13 1
MR. BEARD:
M-a-m o-1-a.
2 MR.
ISLEY:
3 MR. BEARD:
Is he an I&C engineer or do 4
you remember?
i 5
MR. ISLEY:
I believe he's in the I&C 6
engineer at B&W.
I'm not exactly sure what his 7
title is.
8 MR. BEARD:
Only reason I ask, I know 9
several people down there.
10 MR. ROSSI:
Another thought is I don' t 11 know whether you have contacted INPO or B&W owners 12 groups on experience with this, but those both could
(}
13 be areas where you might benefit from other you know, tha t's a 14 experience.
And these are 15 suggestion of, you know, things that you might 16 consider as help to you in getting expertise and 17 getting the maximum amount of experisnce that you 18 can get.
19 MR. BEARD:
The second comment or area I 20 tuink that's worth mentioning or discussing has to 21 do with the item la on page 1 of this detailed 22 action plan which reads as fellows:
Repeat step A 23 only with the high voltage off when the unit is at
()
24 power (Mode 1).
Should I interpret this statement RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 i
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
?
l 14 1
that you would be intending that if the esU 2
troubleshooting is not successful at resolving the 3
root causes, you would be proposing to restart this 4
plant, take it to Mode 1 with the problem unresolved?
5 MR. BORYSIAK:
That is c'rrect.
e 6
MR. BEARD:
That is correct?
7 MR. ROSSI:
Well 1
8 MR. BE/.D:
I'm asking for point of 9
clarification.
10 MR.
ISLEY:
We 11 MR.
BEARD:
I'm surprised, and I wanted to 12 have it clarified, that's all.
O 13 MR. ISLEY:
The time when this problem 14 shows up most frequently is when at power with the 15 high voltage off.
We don't this problem shows up 16 very seldom when we're in Mode 3.
17 MR. ROSSI:
I think that's another reason 18 for trying to take maximum advantage of any l
19 experience that you can get frem either other plants 20 or through vendor experts, because, again, you know, 21 at some point in time the question of whether you've 22 done enough and whether there's rearonable assecance 23 tha t the problem has been corrected is going to.come 24 up.
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
1 l
15 i
1 And there may be concerns about going back 2
to power without this problem being corrected.
You 3
know, we can't comment on that because we're not 4
going to be the ones making that deci sion.
But I everybody in the room must appreciate 5
think you 6
that thst's going to be a significant question at 7
some point in time.
And Region 3,
you may want to 8
comment on that.
I don't know.
9 MR. ROGERS:
I guess the only thing is 10 what is the technical specification requirements on 11 your source ranges.
12 MR. BORYSIAK:-
At power we do not need 13 them.
14 MR. BEARD:
Wha t-about in going to get to i
15 power.
16 MR. ROGERS:
You got to get from 5 to 1.
17 Are they needed in that transition from 5 to 17 18 MR. BORYSIAK:
Yes, they are.
19 MR. ISLEY:
We are required to have some 20 source ranges operable while doing the start-up.
21 MR. ROGERS:
I expect you to meet your l
l 22 technical' specifications requirements.
I l
23 MR. BEARD:
Okay.
The third a rea I'd like l
(])'
24 to ask about is on Page 2 of the detailed plan RUNPOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 l
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
16 1
dealing with checking of the cables.
Your plan 2
indicates in the first step that you're going to be 3
using a technique called time domain reflectometer --
4 or reflectometry.
I'd like to understand wha t 5
experience you or your team has in using such 6
techniques in prior situations or is this the first 7
time or what?
8 MR. BORYSIAK:
We have, in fact, used a 9
TDR in the past.
With respect to the expertise, I 10 personally have used it once.
Jack, I don' t know 11 MR. DeSANDO:
I've used it several times 12 in the same type of situation.
13 MR.
BEARD:
When you used it in the past, 14 were you able to identify a problem that you were 15 looking for?
16 MR. DeSANDO:
Yes, sir.
17 MR. BEARD:
The reason for bringing this la up is that it appears from the way you've described 19 the step here that the implication is that you're 20 going to run it on the cables associated with NI 21 channel 2 and then use that as a bench mark or 22 reference for assessing the information that you get 23 from running this test on NI No.
1.
Is that your
()
24 plan?
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
2 17 1
MR. BORYSIAK:
Not necessarily a bench j-
. '%.) '
2 marx per se.
More of a comparison, comparativa type 3
value.
'4 MR. BEARD:
But it's a comparison.
Tha t's 5
all_I meant by the bench ma K.
6 MR. BORYSIAK:
Right.
7 MR. BEARD:
Is there any validity to
?
8 using TDR by itself-as an absolute measurement or 9
is there any possibility that the way these signals 10 are reflected and the TDR is' set up that you may 11 have indications =that are in channel 2 tha t are 12 indicative of~ potential problem areas that haven't 13 surfaced yot that would cloud or make it difficult l'4' spot potential TDR anomaly indications in 15 nannel 17 16 MR. BORYSIAK:
That is a possibility.
I 17 would hope to rely on Jack's past experience'with 18 TDR to hopefully identify these anomalies-and come 19 up with reasons for_them prior to making such 20 comparisons.
21' MR. BEARD:
Jack, do you have.any comments?
22 MR. DeSANDO:
I have been involved in 2 23 using a TDRfas a method of troubleshooting this type (f
24 of. cable,.this. type ofrsignal cable.
And you are RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION M
t e
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3 18 1
correct, there are certain things that could, by
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2 comparing one channel to another, we may have 3
problems not yet surfacing that will show upcon the 4
TDR.
But we should be able to differentiate between, 5
you know 6
MR. BEARD:
I guess what I'm suggasting in J
7 a light way is that the measurement be tocused i
8 possibly or reconsider focusing in on as an absolute 9
measurement as a relative or comparative measurement.
10 I'm not saying tnat comparison doesn't have its 11 value.
.But, you know, there could be cable 12 degradations that are picked up in measurement of
(
I'll call it the 'ceference, and that would --
13 your 14 you know what-I'm talking abouc.
15 MR. DeSANDO:
Yes,. sir, I think tha t's 16 true.
We ought to be able to use the measurament of 17 the NI-l cable alone.
The trace that we get from 18 taking the reading on the NI-l cable alone, we ought 19 to be able to use that without sven, you know, using 20
,a reference.
21 MR. BEARD:
Just out of curiosity, the TDR 22 equipmant that you'll be using, is tnat.Hewlett 23 Packard'or whose is it?
()
24 MR. DeSANDO:
I don't RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERlZ3D TRANSCRIPTION
19 1
MR.
ISLEY:
I don't know the vendor of the 2
equipment.
'3 MR. BEARD:
Okay.
Does the equipment come i
4 with an instruction manual?
we purchased a 5
MR. ISLEY:
Yes.
Did we 6
TDR.
.Tha t's Toledo Edison's equipment.
We have a 1
7 vendor's manual on it.
8 MR. BEARD:
There's a vendor's manual.
9 MR.
ISLEY:
Yes.
10 MR. B E A R'D :
Does the vendor's manual f
11 include in it a technique of time Domain 12 reflectometry as a technique or does it discuss 13 exclusively the design or performance of this 14 particular piece of equipment?
15 MR. ISLEY:
I can't answer that question 16
'cause I have not read the manual.
i 17 MR. DeSANDO:
The experience that I have 18 using that particular measuring device, the manual that came with the TDR that I used had 19 that had 20 both types of information both on the unit itself 21 and how to use it and also how to analyze the traces 22 that you get from-that piece of equipment.
l 23 MR. BEARD:
.Very good.
Thank you.
()
24 All right.
Now I'm back into more the l
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
20 1
observations than anything else.
On the next page 2
is an item 1 having to do with, it says, have the 3
operators monitor and log any spiking problems 4
observed.
Have you considered having them also note 5
or make notes of the starting or stopping of 6
equipment in the plant that would occur 7
simultaneously with the spiking?
8 MR. BORYSIAK:
Tha t's w ha t I had planned 4
9 upon doing with respect to writing that on the work 10 order.
11 MR. BEARD:
Tha t's an obvious omission 12 from the plan.
That's all.
That's the only reason 13 I ask.
Okay.
Have you given any consideration to 14 correlating the duration of this spike, how long it 15 takes for it to recover once it's spiked to the 16 design consideration of the time constants involved 17 in response of the count rate module?
18 MR. BORYSIAK:
We had planned on having 19 the operators put on their trend recorders-or i
20 inatslling trend recorders somewhere that we could 21 monitor these spikes, try to obtain that data.
22 MR. BEARD:
Have you planned on doing any 23 analysis or correlation?
' j{}
24 MR. BORYSIAK:
As part of this, yes, to RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION i
_ ~,, - _ _
~
i
~
f 21 1
see what the magnitude of the spikes are.
-Also to s.
2' sea tne time interval between spixing problems.
2 :
l 3
Also the frequency and take a look at that from that 4
standpoint.
5 MR. BEARD:
'Are you planning on 6
correlating that back to the t i m a -' r e s p o n s e of this L
7 particular module in question?
8 MR. BORYSIAK:
Yes, we can*do that.
t 9
MR. BEARD:
I'm not saying.do it.
I'm i
10-asking.
I have no further comments.
11 MR. ROSSI:
Thatfs - on the NI-1.
.2 MR. BEARD:
On the NI-1.
I think the 1
13 record should reflect that this was the channel that 14 was inoperable prior to the avent.
15 MR. BORYSIAK:
Yes.
16 MR. BEARD:
'And remained inoperable i
17 throughout-the event.
This is not the channel that 18 failed during tne evant.
j 19 MR. BORYSIAK:
.That is correct.
l 20 MR. ISLEY:
That is correct.
21 MR. BEARDS.
This is clarification.
-I 1
i l-22 think Walt has a comment.
23 MR. ROGERS:
On the operator monitor log l
()
24 spiking problem, are you all aware of any switch RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION i
4
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I 22 1
manipulations right now in the plant that will give 4
2 you a spike on tne source range?
3 MR.
ISLEY:
The alarm test and acknowledge 4
4 functions will produce some small spiking of the 5-source range.
We've had that problem since tne the grounding testing and 6
plant was built.
We 7
ground modifications that Mike had describad was in i
was to try and correct that problem, and 8
response 9
we had reduced the spiking to a very minor level.
l 10 But it does cause a very.small spike.
11 MR. ROGERS:
Are you all aware of any, say, 12 switching from a T one of the TH to another TH or 13 something along that line, one of those switches on 14 the back panels tnat would cause a spiking problem?
15 MR. BORYSIAK:
No.
16 MR. ISLEY:
Not right off.
1 17 MR. BORYSIAK:
Not aware of any.
18 MR. ROGERS:
I think you might want to 19 talk to some of your operations staff people if they 20 don't already know when you get the spike.
21 MR. BEARD:
Very good comment.
Depend on 22 your operators.
They can tell you how the equipment 23 works.
I'm finished with NI-1.
Do you want to go
. ()
24 right on to NI-27 RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
23 1
MR. WOOD:
Yes.
O 2
MR. BEARD:
I guess we've clarified which
- t o' y
'3 one this is.
4
'MR.
ROSSI:
Let me make a comment while
[
5 J.T.
is getting ready here.
We would like to get as 6
soon as -- if you do revisions to these things, we'd 7
like to get copies of those for our files.
You know, 8
we're not going to re comme'a t on them or anything, 9
but we want to have a record of what you finally use.
10 And tha t's true for the ones that we've 11 already reviewed also, that we'd like to get a file 12 copy when -- when and if you've redone them in any
)
13 way.
And I think the first one was-the one on the 14 two valves that I think you're already working on 15 that, so presumably there is an update of that.
[
16 MR. MOMINEE:
I put in the cover sheet on j
17 sach one of these t ha t shows our approval.
And then 18 I'll make the solutions I'm going to give Bill 19 Rowles copies, and he will be distributing ~them to 20 you.
21 MR. ROSSI:
Tha t's good.
Tna t's fine.
22 MR. BEARD:
We would then end up with a 23 copy that we go into this' meeting with.
And if l (])
24 there's any revisions -subsequently-as a result of ~
RUNFOLA 4 ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 4
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this meeting or other information, we'd have that.
2 MR. MOMINEE:
Yes.
3 MR. ROSSI:
File copies.
Okay.
Record 4
copies might be a better word.
Okay.
Go ahead.
5 MR. BEARD:
I guess this is NI-2.
And 6
this is the one where the failure indications were 7
basically that it fails down scale low and basically 8
goes off scale.
That's the significance of being 9
less than point 1 counts per second.
10 MR. DeSANDO:
Yes, sir, 11 MR. BEARD:
And I notice that yaur 12 hypotheses deals with two theories.
First is 13 loose or intermittent connections, and second 14 is possibility of relating Kl.O which may be 15 interrupting the output, I presume, from reading 16 your write-up.
Okay.
That's just an observation.
i 17 Over on the specific steps of the detailed 18 action plan, I'm disturbed a bit by the general 19 flavor of this plan in that the pages that precede 20 these specific steps indicate tha t on repeated 21 occasions, you had this problem.
And an individual 22 went over and opened the door to the equipment, 23 which you would have to do to make readings and
(^}
24 record settings and whatnot, and that was sufficient v
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-6477 COMPUTP.RIZED TRANSCRIPTION
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25 1
to'make the-problem go away.
LO 2
.MR.
DeSANDO:
Yes, sir.
3 MR. BEARD:
This plan seems to totally L
4 ignore that aspect of the thing.
And it does not 5
address any investigation that I've been able to l
6 find with respect'to the effect of opening the
-7 cabinet door.
-I personally am disappointed, but ~
8 tha t's not a team's position.
And I was wondering 9
if you have any comments.
lam I misunderstanding l
10 something?
11 MR. DeSANDO:
I don't quite see it that 12 way.-
The whole point ~ of the hypothesis was hoping 13 to find loose connections or. loose components within 14 the cabinet or on the modules themselves or on the 15 connecters within the cabinet itself.
I realize, l
16 and I see what you mean by, you know, it seems that 17 when they've opened the door or some type of
- 18 mechanical 1 agitation causing the indication to come 19 back, t h a t '_ s the whole point _in going through 20-looking for loosa contacts ^and: loose connections.
-21 MR. BEARD:
- Let~me see if we can clarify 22 the thing.
In the area'of the-cabinet' door I would 23 have~ expected.to see, you know,. typically something
(}
24 that says'something about ~ maybe~taxe the readings-RUNFOLA 6' ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
1 l
26 1
on the instruments, that indicators are available L./
2 without opening the door, and then maybe an oponing 3
of the door in some carefully controlled manner and 4
taking follow-up readings to somehow determine to 5
what effect the door per se has on these things 6
since that's been your history.
And I don't see 7
that.
8 MR. DeSANDO:
That, what you're talking 9
about, about opening of the door, I believe that 10 only happened one time as a fix to the or as a 11 I think only during the 12 MR.
BEARD:
I don't want to get into an 13 argument whether it happened one time or three times.
14 Tha t's not the point.
15 MR. DeSANDO:
But I want to go on 16 MR. GRIME:
I guess your-basic point is we 17 should fully. consider the possibility ot adding the
]
18 special test relative to the door to this action 19 plan.
]
l 20 MR.
BEARD:
No, I guess well, that for 21 this specific plan.
But my general disappointment l
l 22 is more along the line that it doesn't seem to be 1
23 consistent with tne general guidance tha t's been l
()
24 under which these were to be developed a t.
The l
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION i
27 l'
detailed troubleshooting procedure would reflect 2
what you've learned from your operating experience, 3
your maintenance history and things of this nature.
what can I say?
4 It just 5
MR. ROSSI:
Wall, why don't we leave tnat 6
for their consideration?
7 MR. GRIME:
It's a mattar of_getting at 8
tne connection.
9 MR.
BEARD:
You can do the protoplan as 10 you feel is appropriate, but you know where I'm 11 coming from.
12 MR. DeSANDO:
Yes, sir.
13 MR.
BEARD:
Okay.
The second comment that 14 I have is that after making the initial record of 15 the, I'll call it, the as-found condition with 16 regard to switch settings and things of this nature, 17 that it seems that the next step is to start la removing bits and pieces of the modules for detailed 19 examination without conducting any channel-wide 20 tests.
21 In other words, you're jumping in in the 22 middle without doing anything that says am I even at 23 the right module.
I'm not sure that I'm making my
(])
24 point clear.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
D 28 1
MR. ISLEY:
You feel tnst we should go fs
(_/
2 through and do some overall whole channel testing 3
prior to removing the modules?
You think that would 4
be more appropriate than the way wo nave it laid out?
5 MR.
BEARD:
I'm saying that I don't 6
understand why there's not some troubleshooting 7
steps that would be for the purpose of identifying 8
the suspect module before.you start testing 9
individual modules.
10 MR.
ISLEY:
Okay.
11 MR. BEARD:
And this, I guess, relates to 12 the count rate amplifier module and also a high 13 voltage power supply module.
But those are details.
14 You know, is there any response to'that comment?
15 MR. DeSANDO:
Just one.
The incident on 16 MR. BEARD:
What page are you on?
That 17 would help me.
18 MR. DeSANDO:
It's on Page 2 of 3,
the 19 incident that occurred on 4-13-85, which is very 20 simila r,- i f not exactly,the samo that happened 21 during the trip when NI-2 failed to zero to below 10 22 to the minus 1 counts per second, the I&C mechanic 23 had opened the cabinet doors.
The reading was still
.(}
24 below 10.to the minus 1.
And he tapped on the front RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION.
j
.9 29 1
of the cou'nt rate amplifier module, and immediately 2'
the indication returned to normal or on scale.
4
~
3
'That is wny I've jumped right to checking 4
for loose connections in that area.
That's my only 5
justification for tnat.
As far as concerning tne 6
high voltage detector power supply module, the only 7
reason I'm looking at that is because since the first time this 8
problem just prior to the first 9
problem has come up we had replaced the blue ribbon
- 10 connector on the back'of that-high voltage power i
11 supply module, and that is one of the reasons 12 that'is another -- that's my justification for i
13 looxing at that right away also.
14 But the point of him. tapping the front of l
15 that module causing the indication to come up I I feel confident that that's our 16 believe is i
17 problem area right there.
i 18 MR.
BEARD:
I don't want you.to feel i
19 like you have to justify anything to me.
I'm just 20 really trying to understand the process of the l
21~
troubleshooting.
And I-guess it that in the 22 context that we don' t' wan t to lose or destroy any-i i
}
23 evidence that would lead you folks to the root.cause
~
t
. (}
24 or causes, there may be more than one.
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION t
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It just appeared to me that there had been 2
not as much attention given to the event of a 3
failure of March 25th, three weeks before the 4
tapping corrected it.
This is whera the opening of 5
tne door seemed to' correct it, and there was no 6
further troubleshooting performed.
t 7
'Just seems like that when you go into the 8
equipment physically, tne first tning you have to do 9
is essentially open the door if you're talking about 10 at the racx versus control. room mounted indicators.
11 And just seems like going through that phase without 12 careful attention might destroy some information 13 that might be valuable.
Tha t's the Kind of place i
i 14 I'm coming from.
15 MR. ROSSI:.
Okay.
Do you have any --
16 MR. BEARD:
I don't have any other 17 comments.
18 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
19 MR. BEARD:
They were just those two.
20 MR. ROSSI:
Well, I think that completes 21 everything we want to do with these.
And, you know, 22 you can take the comments under advisement and 23 consideration.
And I'll just reitertte that the
(])
24 bottom line we're going to be interested in is when RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
31 1
you get to the end of this process, that you have a
%~/
2 justification tnat you've found the problem, you 3
know what it is, and it's been fixed, and that 4
just Reap that in mind as you go through the thing.
5 Do the regions have any comments?
6 MR. BEARD:
Do the regions have any 4
7 comments on NI-27 8
MR. CHOULES:
I'd like to make a comment.
9 Probably has more to do with NI-1 than NI-2.
I've 10 had a little bit of experience in that area and 11 where actual connectors seemed to give a lot of 12 trouble.
And they've got to be absolutely clean
()
13 whan you put them together.
You got to use probably 14 alcohol and this type of thing.
And I think when 15 you're troubleshooting this NI-1, you ought to pay 16 particular attention to that.
i 17 MR. BEARD:
That's a very important point 18 in my experience also.
Does anybody happen to know 19 whether the coax connectors used are the crimp type 20 or the solder type?
21 MR. ISLEY:
I am not sure.
22 MR. BEARD:
Are your coax connectors a 23 PL-2597
()
24 i
MR. ISLEY:
That number doesn't sound RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
i 32 1
familiar.
It's been a long time'since I've looked 2
at one.
If I were to say anything, it would be a 3
solder type, not a crimped type.
4 MR. BEARD:
T ha t's clearly the experience 5
everybody has tha t's ever worked with those 6
connecters, that's a highly suspect area.
7 MR. ROSSI:
Do you have any more comments, 8
Walt?
9 MR. ROGERS:
Maybe one more on NI-1.
I 10 see a note discussing a facility change request, 11 84-116.
Do you envision implementing that facility 12 change request at some point in time during this or 13 if the troubleshooting points to whatever this FCR 14 is doing for you, will you implement that FCR7 15 MR. BORYSIAK:
It is presently scheduled 16 to be completed by 1989, I believe.
I am pushing 17 for tnis next refueling outage to have that 18 implemented or during the next refueling outage.
19 MR. WOOD:
Walt, my answer to that is that 20 would be part of a corrective action program.
If 21 that is what was viewed as necessary as part of the 22 corrective action, than the answer would be yes.
t 23 But I don't think we're in a position at this point (O3 24 till we identify root cause and the path that we RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION e
33 1
wish to take on corrective action to'raally tell you 2
that it will or will not be implemented either prior 3
to restart or in the 1986 refueling outage or we aren't in a position to 4
whatever.
Tha t's just 5
give you a firm answer on that.
6 MR. BEARD:
Nick, did you have any 7
comments you wanted to have?
8 MR. JACKIW:
No, I haven't.
The only 9
question I had was when are you going to start work I
10 on both NI-1 and 2?
11 MR. BORYSIAK:
We had discussed in all i
12 probability Monday.
}
13 MR. ISLEY:
Monday would be the aarliest s,t a r t.
We haven't formalized that as 14 time that we wa're 15 being the start date.
We're going to go i
16 going to have to sit down and review our action 17 plans in light of the comments made and make i
18 revisions which will could impact on the starting 19 date.
20 MR. JACKIW:
Okay.
Thank you.
21 MR. GRIME:
Is that for NI-l and NI-27 22 MR. BORYSIAK:
We need to coordinate our 23 efforts on this.
(])
24 MR. ISLEY:
Yes, the work will have to be RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION i
34 1
coordina ted on both these plans to make sure we 7s
, ~%)
2 don't get in either ot each other's way.
3 MR. BEARD:
Speaking about coordinating, 4
are you talking about working on one at a time or is 5
it going to be working simultaneously?
6 MR.
BORYSIAK:
Depending on the amount 01 7
work we want to accomplian.
Tech specs requires 8
that we have at least one channel operable.
And l
9 depending upon the method of testing or what we want 10 to perform on each cnannel will dictate whether 11 we're going to make tnat channel inoperable or not.
12 Therefore, this is where we need to coordinate our
/
13 efforts.
14 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
I guess we're unless 15 anybody else has any comments.
16 MR. BEARD:
I don't have any comment on 17 this one.
I just want to aske sure I understand, 18 procedurally the next item that you would like for 19 us to address is the one on the turbine byp-sas valve?
20 MR. WOOD:
Tha t's correct.
21 MR. BEARD:
And I understand from 22 discussions prior to this meeting that what you 23 would lixe for us to do now is to take a recess of
(}
24 some period of time in order to review that, and RUNPOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION i
35 1
then come back some period today and be prepared to 2
discuss that as we've discussad these action plans?
I 3
MR. WOOD:
Tha t's correct.
i 4
MR. ROSSI:
Fairly quickly I would hope, 5
like this morning.
J 6
MR. WOOD:
Yes.
7 MR. BEARD:
Are these the only action 8
plans tnat we naad to discuss with you today?
9 MR. WOOD:
That is correct.
j 10 MR.
BEARD:
Okay.
i j
11 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
Well, then why don't we 4
12 and the meeting now.
13 14 Thereupon, the proceedings were 15 concluded at 10:34 o' clock a.m.
16 17 18 19 20 21 i
~
22 l
23
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4 24
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CERTIFICATE 2
I, Anne I.
McBrayer, a Registered 3
Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for 4
the State of Ohio, do hereby certify that I took the 5
Proceedings before tne Nuclear Regulatory Commission 6
Fact Finding Team and that the foregoing transcript i
7 of such proceedings is a full, true and correct
]
8 transcript of my stenotypy notes as so taken.
9 I do further certify that I was called 10 there in the capacity of a Court Reporter, and am 11 not otherwise interested in this proceeding.
12 IN WITNESS Wil E R E O F, I have hereunto set my 13 hand and affixed my seal of office at Columbus, Ohio, i
14 on this d day of A~A
, 1985.
C O
15
'kO. D1 c braa.<,M 16
...e
~
i ANNE I.
McBRAYER RPR and()
17 Notary Public in and for the S ta te of Ohio.
18 19 My Commission expires February 3, 1988.
20 21 22 3
j 23
()
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