ML20128G795
| ML20128G795 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 02/08/1993 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 9302160109 | |
| Download: ML20128G795 (86) | |
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PERIODIC BRIEFING'ON-EEO PROGRAM-
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DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on February 8, 1993 in the commission *s office at one White Flint North, Rockville, Maryland.
The meeting was
- open to public attendance and observation.
This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected or edited, and it may contain ir. accuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determination or beliefs.
No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of, or addressed to, any statement or argument contained herein,!
except as the Commission may authorize.
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1 UNITED CTATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION PERIODIC BRIEFING 011 EEO PROGRAM PUBLIC MEETING Nuclear Regulatory Commission Ono White Flint North Rockvillo, Maryland Monday, February.8, 1993-The Commission met' in open
- session, pursuant to
- notice, at 2:00 p.m.,
Ivan-Selin, Chairman, presiding.
COMMISSIONERS'PRESENT:
IVAN FELIN, Chairman of the Commission KENNETH C. ROGERS, Commissioner FORREST J. REMICK, Commissioner JAMES R. CURTISS, Commissioner-E. GAIL 'de PLANQUE, Commissioner 4
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STAFF SEATED AT THE COMMISSION TABLE:
l JAMES TAYLOR, Executive Director for Operations PAUL BIRD, Director, Office of Personnel PATRICIA NORRY, Director, Office of Administration PAULINE BROOKS, Af firmative Action Advisory Committee CARDELIA MAUPIN, Blacks in Government LARRY PITTIGLIO, Joint Labor-Management Advisory Committee MARK AU, Asian Pacific American Advisory Committee EDWARD TUCKER, Manager, Civil Rights Program, SBCR CLARE
- DeFINO, Federal Women's Program Advisory Committee SHARON CONNELLY, Committee on Age Discrimination MARIA LOPEZ-0 TIN, Hispanic Employment Program Advisory Committee JAMES THOMAS, National Treasury Employees Union JAMES McDERMOTT, Acting Director of the Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization and Civil Rights BARBARA WILLIAMS, Assistant for Minority Recruitment and Career Development, Office of Personnel 4
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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2
2 00 p.m.
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CHAIRMAN SELINI Good afternoon, ladies j
i 4
and gentlemen.
1 The Commission meets this afternoon to 5
-1 6
discuss the most recent status report on NRC's' Equal 7
Employment Opportunity Program. The NRC staff and our a
employment advisory committees meet with the 9
Commission semi-annually to discuss the status of our 10 efforts to achieve our EEO goals and objectives.
Our 11 last meeting on this topic was held last July.29th.
o' 12 At our last meeting we used a new format for these.
13 presentations and we're continuing the procedure in 14 this afternoon's session.
15
. Copies of the Commission paper containing-16 background information on today's presentations are.
17 available in the room.
' 18 Just let me say at the beginning_I-found' 19 the paper to be terrific.
I thought it was a' terrific 20 report.
It showed great sensitivity to the issues,-1 21 concerns and needs associated with 'our1EEO program and 22 I'd-like to commend-the staff for their efforts in 23 preparO it.
24 Nevertheless, we need to acknowledge' that-25 our progress towards - achieving our-goals and-NEAL R. GROSS:
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' objectives is disappointingly slow.
In my view, W3-2 lack neither the commitment nor the programs to ensure 3
that we use and develop our human resources wisely and 4
in the best interest of the agency and our people, 5
What we need to do is to determine how to refine and t
implement more effectively the many initiatives that 6
7 we have underway in the EEO area to ensure that we 8
obtain positive results in the shortest possible time.
9 Our purpose in meeting today'is to get a 10 general
- report, but more specifically it's to 11 concentrate on how this improvement and this execution 12 can best be done.
13 Before I turn the meeting over to the
.j 14 Executive Director for Operations, do any of my 15 colleagues have anything to say?
16 Mr. Taylor, the floor is yours.
17 MR. TAYLOR:
Good' afternoon.
18 Before I make some observations on some 19 key elements of our EEO program,:I'11' introduce Ed 20 Tucker, Program Manager in the Office of Civil Rights 21 and Small Business, and ' ask him to introduce the 22 people at the table from the committeec.
23 MR. TUCKER:.Thank you, Mr.-Taylor.
24 Participating in this af ternoon's briefing.
25 are Mr. Paul Bird, the. Director of the Office"of NEAL R GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS.
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Personnel, and reprosentativos of tho various EE0 2
. constituency group committees.
Seated at the table, l
3 beginning at my far lof t, is Ms. Maria Lopez-Otin, 4
Chairperson of the llispanio Program Advisory
+
5 Committoo; Ms. Sharon Connolly, Chairperson of the 6
Committee on Age Discrimination; Ms. Clare DeFino, 7
Chairperson of the Federal Women's Program Advisory 8
Committee; and on my far-right Mr.
Mark Au, 9
Chairperson of the Asian Pacific American Advisory 10 Committoe.
Soated next to him in Mr. Larry Pittiglio,-
11 Chairperson of the Joint Labor-Management EE0 Advisory _
12 Committoo and next to him is Ms. Cardelia - Maupin, 13 President of the NRC Chaptor of Blacks in Government; 14 and Ms. Pauline Brooks, Chairperson of.the Affirmative 15 Action Advisory Committee.
16 Mr. Bird?
17 MR. - TAYLOR:
I have a few remarks, Ed..
18 I'll pick up_there.
19 I'd like to acknowledge' that liark Au -is 20 Chairperson for our most recently formed ' committee, 21 the Asian-Pacific American Advisory' Committee.
22 At our ' last EEO ' briefing -- well,. I'll-23 first ask Paul-to introduce.the Personnel staff who.
24 are also here to answer questions.
25 Paul?.
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MR. DIRD:
Wo didn't have enough room now 2
to get all the people that might participate today at 3
the
- table, so I would like to introduce a
few 4
individuals who have been interacting directly with 5
the EEO advisory committees and in various ECO and 6
af firmative action ef forts.
From your left, from the 7
Commission's lef t to right, I'd like to introduce Jim 8
- Thomas, the local Chapter 208' President of the 9
11ational Treasury Employees Union.
Jim.
Patricia 10 11orry, Director of the Office of Administration who 11 has been serving as the chair of the Executive 32 Resources Board Review Group and it's a function that.
13 we'll be talking about shortly. Jim McDermott, who is 14 formerly the Deputy Director of Personnel, currently 15 the Acting Director of the Office of Strall and 16 Disadvantaged Business Utilization and Civil Rights; 17 and Ms. Barbara Williams who is' serving in my office 18 as the Assistant for Minority Recruitment and Career 19 Development in the Office of Personnel.
20 Additionally,. several' members of my staf f 21
.who are actively participating in EEO and affirmative 22 action efforts are available in - the-row directly 23 behind should there be any specific' questions that can-24 they can help with during the briefing.
Thank-you.
b 25 MR. TAYLOR:
At our.last EEO. meeting'on L
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July 29th, wo introduaod a now formet for thoso 2
briefings and I'd like t continue using that format.
3 I've provided the Commission, as the Chairman noted,
'i 4
with an information paper.
In that paper I describo 5
six affirmative action objectivon which we're 6
focusing.
I've provided various demographic data 7
depicting work force trends at the 11RC and responded 8
to questions by the Commission in its SRM from the
.o 9
last EE0 briefing.
Also, I provided the responses, 10 the staf f responses to issuos and recommendations from i
I 11 the sovon advisory committoos.
12 I'll summarizo the key points in = our 13 Commission paper quickly.
We'ro-focusing on -- first
+
14 we're focusing on onhancing the opportunition for 15 recruiting llispanic employees in all= occupations.
16
- Two, we're enhancing. opportunities-- for recruiting 17 women and minorities in professional positions. We're 18 trying to expand the pool. of women. and minorities-l 19 oligible for supervisory, management and executive'g >
20 positions.
'Four, trying to attract and retain _
21 disabled employoos.
Fivo, we're providing a training 22 and
-development program,-
including rotationali 23 opportunitios to enhance job performance in support of.
affirmativo action.
Six, we're trying ' to improvo~
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cetion objectivos thrsaghout the staff.
2 One of the EEO-related areas we've focused 3
a great deal of energy and concern on in the past six 4
months is prevention of sexual harassment.
We're 5
committed to communicate to all employoon that sexual 6
harassment will not be tolerated in the work place.
7 We've had to deal forthrightly and aggressively.with 8
allegations of sexual harassment that have come.to our 9
attention.
During the last fiscal year, one formal' 10 grievance was flied and five complaints outside the 11 formal complaint process or grievance procedure were 12 brought to management's attention.
In each of those 13 instances, management took
- action, including 14 initiating disciplinary action where appropriate to 15 encure that the o%fonsive behavior was stopped and 16 that the feelings of the aggrieved parties were 17 understood by the offenders.
18 An announcement is being-distributed to 19 all employees identifying-several instances of 20 inappropriate behavior. Those are only examples.
But 21 our objective in publishing this information is to
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22 make employees aware of the Agency's intolerance of 23 this behavior and our intention to take disciplinary.-
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4 24 action as needed.
.25 We're also communicating the Agency's NEAL R. GROSS CoORT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 MHoDE t$ LAND AVENUE, N W.
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roxual harassment policy to all employcon through 2
publication, distribution of an Agency brochure, 3
Prevention of Sexual Harassment.
In this document, 4
employees are given concrete advice about identifying 5
the offensive behavior and dealing with it.
The 6
Agency's responsibilities, supervisor's 7
1esponsibilities and employce's responsibilities are 8
described and sources of information and assistanco 9
nro provided.
10 One of the resources available to our 11 cmployees is counseling services for victims of sexual i
12 harassment.
.This special expertise is available
{
13 through or Employco Assistanco Program in the Office 14 of Personnel and is being used.
Additional guidance 15 on responding to complaints of sexual. harassment has I
16 been provided to all managers and. supervisors.in a 17 recent memorandum from me.-
Actions to be taken by la management when a complaint is lodged or offensive 19 behavior is observed are outlined in this document.
20
- Finally, we're. offering a -continuing 21 sexual harassment prevention training to all employees 22 throughout Headquarters and the regions.
Although.we 23-have offered : training in this subject since - 1983, d.
24 we've~ recently renewed.our effort.to. train all 25 supervisors and employees in this area.
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haracement provention workshop rocantly revised end 2
currently being presented by the office of Personnel 3
Hanagemont and representativos from the office of 4
Personnel and the Office of the General Counsel 5
provide statutory information about sexual harassment, 6
management's roles and responsibilities in preventing '
7 inappropriate behavior and in dealing with it and the 8
rights, responsibilities and remedies that victims of 9
sexual harassment have and can exercise.
j i
10 Since April of_ 1992, we've
_ trained 11 approximately 30 percent of the staff and sessions 12 will be offered continuously throughout this year and 13 next year until all supervisors and employees have had:
14 an opportunity to attend.
15 Now I would like to start dialogue this
-16 afternoon by asking Pat Norry to discuss the role of 17 the Executive Resources Board Review Group that -I 18 appointed and initiated in April of 1992.
19 Pat Norry?
20 MS. NORRY:
Good afternoon.
}
21-The Executive Resources Board Review Group -
22 was established by the EDO on April 28th,.1992. -The i
23 members, in addition'to myself, are Jack Heltemes; from 24 the office of' Research, Jim Blaha from: the EDO's-25 Office, Jesst. Funches from' the f Controller's Office, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERA AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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and Joso Calvo from NRR.
2 The purpose of this group as outlined in I
3 the memorandum from the EDO is to examine the rating i
4 and selection process for grade 15 and SES positions 5
to help ensure that the principles of EEO are applied 6
in these selections.
The way we operate is t ant we 7
meet each week and review packages of having been 8
through the panel and listing the-best qualified-list H
9 for those panel reviews. The Board receives copies of 10 all the application _ packages in advance and the i
11 discussion focuses on whether there are highly 12 qualified women and/or minorities represented on the 13 best qualified list.
I'd just like to stress that our-14 review, of course, is not just a repetition - or a 15 straight out endorsement of what is on the best 16 qualified list, but rather we make' an-independent 17 judgment that highly qualified women and/or minorities 18 are or are not on the BQL.
Af ter tho' meeting, I write 19 to the of fice director stating the results of this 20 review.
t 21 I'd like to show three charts which
'22 illustrate _some of the things that have. happened with 23 29 positions that were from April 28th, the time we 24 were established, through December 3rd.
25 (Slide)
If -I could have the first _ chart, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $
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please.
2 This shows the distribution of selections 3
based on the opportunity to select.
What this means 4
is that, for instance, for white males there woro 28 5
cortificatos on which there were white nales and white 6
males were selected 12 times.
Similarly for white 7
- females, there were 17 cortificates where whito 8
females were represented on the BQL and there were 9
eight selections.
With minorities, there woro 14 10 opportunities and nine selections.
11 (Slido)
If wo look at the next chart wo 12 got a botter feci for what the total population was --
13 chart 2, please -- the total population of the BQL.
14 This shows you broken down further in the 15 minority categories the total numbers of the entiro 16 population of all the best qualified lists that wo 17 looked at for all 29 packages, the total numbers that 18 were on there and the percentages of selections.
19 (Slide)
Finally on the third chart, may 20 I have chart 3, please?
21 This is the distribution of selections and 22 it shows you the numbers and the porcontages as 23 against the previous chart that you just saw of what I24 the BQLs woro. This shows you how the selections came 25 out for each category.
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In addition to the numbers, thoro are a 2
few observations that the group has mado.
First of l
3 all, we believe that there's no question that there has been increased awareness of the nood to consider 4
5 all qualifiod candidatos and the importance of equal opportunity in personnel selections.
6 We also noto and share with observations 7
8 that have boon made and that will be mado lator in 9
this briefing that the pool of oligible to novo up 10 into these categories nood to bo increased and I presentation about 11 be)iove that you will hear a 12 soveral strategies to do that.
Obviously there's a lot of progress having boon made in recent hiring in 13 14 women and ninorities at the intern and entry lovcis, 15 but the pool available to move up into some of those 16 positions is not as great as it needs to be.
This is 17 particularly true in the regions where there are 18 simply not as many women and minority candidatos who 19 show up on the best qualified list because they 20 haven't applied for one thing.
21 So those are the observations.
I'd be 22 glad to answer any questions that you may have.
23 CO!OilSSIONER de PlANQUE:
Yes, Pat.
One 24 question.
This represents 29 positions in the 15 SES 25 category, right?
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MS. NORRY:
Right.
2 COMMISSIONER de PIAtlOUE:
These'were all I
3 competed positions.
4 MS. NORRY:
That's correct.
5 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
In that same 6
time period, how many positions in the 15 SES category 7
were filled non-competitively?
8 MS. NORRY:
Do you have that figure?
I 9
don't think there were any SES ' positions thatL I'm 10 aware of that were filled.
Were there any:others?
11 MR. BIRD:
There were SES positions that 12 were filled from within the SES ranks.
So, there was 12 movement within the SES.
4 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:.Right.-
15 MR. BIRD:
But in order to go from a grade 16 15 to SES, of course --
17
. COMMISSIONER de ~
PLANQUE:
- Yes, I
18 understands.
19 MR. VIRD: -- there had to be competition.
20 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:.I'm just looking.
21 for how many.
What-was'the total number?
22 MR. BIRD:
I don't have the total, but I'm' 4
23 sure at the grade 15 level there may.also have' boen-24 reassignments of people who were already at the. grade 25 15 level.
-I just don't have that.
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COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
Right.
2 MR. BIRD:
I don't have'the number on'it.
3 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE ' Okay.
\\
-4 MR. BIRD:
We could certainly check that.
5 COMMISSIONER de PIANQUE:-
And just one i
6 more question.
Can you give us some: idea of how.
7 widely advertised these positioris_ wero?
Were they-l 8
mostly within NRC or within the federal government?
l 9
MS.
NORRY:
Most of them were pretty l 10 widely advertised.
of course there's_a requirement 11 for the SES positions, that they be widely advertised, 12 and my recollection is that the grade 15 ones were
. )
13 advertised-in places other than NRC, but Il defer to 14 Paul on that.
15 MR. BIRD:
Yes.
I don't believe that was-16 true in all cases.- I think probably in-the majority 17 of cases that is true.
We do try at that level _ to yet 18 a broad cast of applicants.-
But.I don' t -- believe i.
19 that's exclusive.
Certainly-some of them may-have 20 been within NRC, if we felt we had' a base of 21 candidates within che Agency that was large enough-to-22 support the action.
Again, we can do=a breakdown of.
23 that for you against that particular time frame,-..if.
24 you'd like.
25 COMMISSIONER de PIANQUE:
Okay.
Thanks.
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MR. TAYLOR:
Are thero questions of Mrs.
2 11orry?
3 Thank you, Pat.
4 I
believe these numbers do show the 5
effectiveness of what Pat llorry and the group are 6
doing.
This is definitely a move in the right 7
direction.
Before we move on to a dialogue between 8
9 the Commission and the various members of the 10 committee and staff here, I'd like to ask Jim Thomas, 11 who has been introduced to you, the President of the 12 local chapter of the 11TEU, who did not novo a written 13 statement but I believe has some comments.
14 Jim?
15 MR. THOMAS:
Thank you.
Good afternoon.
16 I have two general areas of comment. Some 17 I would characterize as old business items, items that 18 had been considered by the Commission in previous 19 briefings and then some new items raised by the report 20 itself.
One item that was brought up in previous 21 briefings is the area of rotational assignments.
NRC 22 and NTEU have reached an agreement in that area.
But 23 there's a problem that keeps popping up dealing with 24 the administration of rotational assignments that I 25 think I should bring to your attention.
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1 with a swapping that in often timos required to 2
implement a rotational assignment.
An employee will 3
come forward and say, "I'd like to go on rotation,"
4 and that same employoo will have to find a replacement 5
for his or her position.
6 Now, that may not be a serious problem 7
when you're dealing with en employee who is seeking a a
rotational assignment for carcar enhancoment. We havo 9
situations whero employees are sooking a rotational
]
10 assignment to got away from a poor supervisory-11 employee relationship. Recently we had a probationary
-]
a 12 cmployee who, as you now know, probationary employees 13 have to serve two years before their probation is j
14 ended.
During the approximately 18 months of his 15 probationary period, he surmised that the relationship 16 between ho and his supervisor was not what it should 17 be and requested a rotational assignment and could not 18 find a replacement.
So, he had to serve out.that 19 period.
20
.We would suggest that Personnel should be 21 given somo authority in the area to actually. find'a 22 replacement or implement a rotational. assignment when 23 it's being requested due to a personality. conflict 24 between employee and supervisor.
25 With regard to another' item --
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1 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
That goss against the 2
whole sense of what our rotational assignment-is-3 supposed to be.
A situation like that, if it's just 4
a personality conflict, it should be a reassignment.
5 If it's really an incompetent supervisor, the idea of 6
sending in some other sacrifice to that -- that sounds 7
like sort of using one process, which is supposed to 8
be a training and broadening process, to solve a I
l 9
different management problen.
Isn't there a more 10 direct solution than just pas 6ing the pain around to 11 a set of candidates?
12 MR. TBOMAS:
Well, the suggestion was 13 intended to provide management some relief.
I would 14 actually feel that in the probationary period that'if 15 things are not working out during the first year that 16 a
reascignment, a
permanent reassignment be 17 implemented.
If that's not possible, at least the 18 rotational assignment would give management a second 19 supervisor who could evaluate because right now for a 20 probationary employee there's one person who is God.
21 If that supervisor says-that there's a problem, you're 22 o'at on the street.
23 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
I see.
24 MR. THOMAS:
But.I We'ald agree with you, 25 the reassignment is a more permanent solution,.but NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIDERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.
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,11 thin would allow somebody to _ go into another area and.
2 if that new superviso:. felt that this'was a competent-3
- employee, then a permanent reassignment could be 4
arranged.
5 In the area of EEO profiles, I think.
6 several times I've raised the issue of requesting
'+
7 information regarding the EEO profile. of the best 8
qualified candidates and the selectees.-
That!s-h 9
something that I think personnel is either on the way lo
'for devel'oping or has developed and I would-suggest 11 that that would be included in all the future 12 briefings as an item for the Commission _to consider.
13 In the area of sexual harassment,_during 14 the last briefing I brought-to the Commission's-15 attention a case in Region III. involving a former 16 supervisor that had harassed several women. That case 17 has now been resolved, I think hopefully.to the 18 satisfaction-of most of the parties.
But'during_the-19 resolution process there_were some issues that were'.
20 raised that I think reflects some of'the problem we 21 have in dealing with' sexual harassment in the. Agency.
22 There seems to be an undue focus-on'the actions or 23 lack of_actior.s on the part of these women prior _to 24 filing the complaint.
Now, if you're dealing:with
.25 alleged harassment on the part of a co-worker, that:
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m
.- 1-may be a legitimate! question-to raise. -When you.are 2
dealing : with alleged. h'arassment on the part. '.of. one 's:
3 supervisor, you are asking L an individual to make a:
4 complaint to the very individual'that'makes a direct.
i 5
determination on their career in this Agency.
6 To me it's very much like tho situation -
7 that non-smokers faced ten or 15 years ago.
The C
burden was on the non-smoker to raise thetcomplaint' 9
and prevent the smoke from being blown 'in thulrf f ace.
10 The situation has now changed to where if you want to 11 light up in a conference room or an'f other area -of the 12 Agency, you've got the problem, not the non-smoker.-
13 Likewise I think that moreLof the burden 14 must be placed away from the individual being harassed 15 here,-that.they cannot always be called upon-to check 16 the conduct of their supervisors because that could be-17
' career damaging.
In this particular case.in. Region 18 III, the individual that initiated the complaint 1was-
?.9 a probationary employee and:- obviously they can be -
l 20 tarminated-without cause at any time.
. So, -.. it 's, a n
1 difficult thing-'for them to' step forward.
[
21 L:
- 22 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Could I stop you for a
[
l 23 second?-
24 MR. Ti10 MAS:
Sure.
p 25 CHAIRMAN'SELIN: -First of all, in general l
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al l
~
l principle I agree with you.
In fact, I've looked not 2
at that particular case but a couple of other cases where it's very clear that for a whole lot of reasons 3
4 the women who are being harassed are really very 5
reluctant to come forward, not just because of the fact that they might be subject to some supervisory 6
- /
action, it's just a very hard thing to do.
In fact, one of the things I believe is absolutely essential is 8
9 that management take a
much stronger hand with supervisors who should have known something was going.
-10 11 on but either didn't or went out of their way not to.
12 find out that things were going on.
I think we've 13 done this in a couple of cases recently to make it 14 clear that this is the responsibility of the -- not 15 the person necessarily involved in the complaint, but 16 when there 's somebody who's supervising people who 17 have been subject to a-couple of complaints, that 18 that's clearly -- making sure that these actions stop 19 is clearly part of the management's responsibility.
20 But I don't believe it's factually correct 21 that the person who is harassed has to go to in most 22 cases her supervisor to make the complaint.
I believe 23 there are a number of different avenues to make that E
24 complaint.
Is that not correct?
25 MR. THOMAS: Maybe I wasn't quite clear in NEAL R. GROSS 3
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-1 what I was saying, In-the resolution procsss,-Jthoro 2
- seems _ to ~be a'
focus on, "Why' didn ' t = you come in 3
-earlier?"
No, the current process-does not require 4
the individual to go their supervisor.
The - new 5
procedure has any number of individuals they can go, 6
to, but certainly in the. case of a probationary 7
employee that iu a risky thing for them to undertake.
8 One of the things that I would suggest-9 that we give some serious consideration to in the crea 10 of sexual harassment and employer-employee relations 11 in-general is the implementation of some sort of a-12 system to allow employees to evaluate supervisory 13 performance.
We've put together a package like this 14 in the past with, I would say, rather limited success.
15 Whenever we p esented it at-the bargaining table-we 16 get a reaction of basically the NRC does not care-:to
~
17 be at the cutting edge of' labor' reform.
When we've-18 gone to various supervisors and said,. "Well, why don't~
19 you try this?" the response is something along the--
20 lines, "That's a novel idea but I don't want to be the-21 first."
22 I have a package that we've had for some-23 time.
-I'd'like to send that to the Commission, the 24 EDO, Personnel and the EEO Office to get some idea of s
25 how it might be implemented.
It's merely a. situation NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.
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23 -
where on various factors the supervisor is evaluated 2
on a self-evaluation, how, he - or she _ thinksy they -
3 communicate with their staff,- how they resolve-problems, do they deal fairly and equitably with their:
4 5
employees and then how the composite of-their staff 6
views that same supervisor.
I think:that in areas 7
where this has been implemented in some of our other chapters, it's provided a lot _of soul searching on the 8
9 part of supervirors regarding, "Well, maybe I_'m:not i
10 doing this as well as I thought I was."
It can prove 11 to be a very positive force here.
12 In the area of the EEO _ report itself, I'll 13 finally get into new business.
One thing about the.
14 report that sort of sticks out in my_ mind is - the i
15 actions or-the direction of the Commission: doesn't 16 really seem to focus on where we have-a lot of our 17 documented EEO problems.
If-you take a look-at the
18-EEO complaints that have been filed in the Agency,l the 19 preponderance of complaints deal with the_ area of_ age..
20 discrimination, except for-some sort of, I guess,.I 21.
would-call it general-training _ guidelines in --one of--
22 the recommendations.
That's missing altogether.
We '-
23 have time and time again.EEO complaints where I think 24' an objective: third party will.take ' a look "at; the qualifications of the selectee, the qualifications ofL 25
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11
- the__ complainant and say,i"There.is a problem hero."
2 I brought-one ; case to i your attention 3
during ' the. last _ briefing - where a : board' certified -
4 health physicist and'a-Master's candidate in health 5
physics we're both passed over for a-senior health 6
physicist position in favor of a younger candidate who 7
doesn't even have a college degree.
Now, somewhere 8
down the ride, that individual is going to be-trained 9
by the people who didn't get the _ job and-that doesn't '
10 work out -for morale and it generates-a lengthy-11 litigation process to-resolve these matters.
12 I th' ink that some attention needs to be 13 devoted.to that area.
One area -that I _would suggest 1_4 is with regard to the issues being discussed by.Ms.
15 Norry earlier.
In addition'to focusing on women.and 16 minorities who are on the list and are not-selected or -
17 not considered, I would think that we would do wellito 18 really_have a screened-best qualified--list where we 19' don't. end up-with a process where : 'we :_ have -' ten.
20 applicants and all ten make the best qualified. list-21 and there's a huge range of _dif ference between the-top -
-22 and-the bottom, and ther have that committee focus not -
-23 only on women and minorities but situations-where the 24 top candidate was not selected.
There are :many 25 situations - where management legitimately does ' not
~
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25 1
select a top candidate.
But if the process was one of where the supervisor more,or less had to document the 2
3 rationale for the selection, there would be a little 4
balancing between the qualifications and the subjective f actors that are of ten times used in the 5
6 selection process.
7 CilAIRMAN SELIN:
I wasn't clear whether 8
those two points were the same about age discrimination and about the best qualified list, but 9
10 I'd like to go back to the agc discrimination 11 question.
It's true that there are a number of 12 individual complaints, a large number of individual 13 complaints concerning age discrimination and that 14 those have to be looked at.
But a lot of what we do 15 in the EEO is just what-it says.
It's truly 16 affirmative action.
In other words, take a look at 17 what our profiles are measured dif ferent ways and say, 18 "We are just grossly under represented in a number of 19 areas."
llispanics is the outstanding example, but 20 there are a
number of others that are very 21 significant.
That goes beyond saying that we have a 22 complaint here or a complaint there.
It says we're 23 not getting enough people into the pool.
It's not so 24 much -- we don't even have enough people in the pool 25 to say that we're treating people fairly or unfairly NEAL R. GROSS 1
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1 once they're in the pool.
2 Now, a lot-of what we do, whether it's the 3
rotational program, it's the training programs, the 4
sensitivity on the selection is to get more candidates 5
into the Agency or up to levels where we have a 6
reasonable number of candidates for any of these 7
groups that are clearly under represented, grossly 8
under represented in our profiles.
There's nothing.
9 like that on the age side.
In the absence of somo 10 kind of a profile argument, you have nothing other 11 than the specific case by case situations to say, 12 "This is wrong.
Something happened," which can be 13 looked at.
14 But to go beyond that, one would really 15 need some kind of a
profile to say we're well, I don't want to say we're 16 systematically 17 systematically excluding, but the results don't show 18 reasonable basis at these levels or what have you for 19 different groups.
I think that explains why most.cf 20 the effort doesn't go in the age-related area, but in 21 the minorities or women or some combination of the two 22
-that are just clearly under represented in many of 23 these groups.
~
24 MR. THOMAS:
Mr. Chairman, in fairness, 25 I've been seeking that profile for three years now and NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHOOC ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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27' I-believe that o'nce-the data'is' developed-regarding 1
best qualified list. as. far _-as age and' the selection'
-2 3
list,.you will generate an overall base there to'show m
that there's a clear connection.between the number 'of 4
S-EEO complaints that we have and the selection process C
in'the Agency.
As things ' stand right now, we can only 7
obtain the data for individual complaints. The union, 8
frankly, does not take the cases forward unless there 9
is a basis to argue' discrimination.
Too costly.:
10 CUAIRMAN SELIN:
You. realize that what.
11
-you're saying, although it may be correct, is not:an 12 answer to what I?m saying.
We're not locking at the' 13 statistics to say is some group' systematically'
.14 discriminated against in the selection ~ process.-
15 MR. THOMAS:
Understood.
16 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
I't's looking: at the -
17 growth statistic. -We're not even getting people into.
~
18 the selection process that -are much more : concerned 19 about.
20 MR. THOMAS:
My problem is not in any of 21 the six recommendations. -I guess I'm focusing on here 22 is an area _ that in my judgment there's a serious 23 problem in.this area.and there's a-lack-of-focus on 24 that area.
I didn't mean that that should exclude any-25 of the other items.
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128-
-1 CHAIRMAN: SELIN:
- Thnnk you.- : I'mf sorry,;
2
-Mr. Thomas,;please continue.
3 MR. THOMAS:
TheJone final' area'I would-
~
4 like to address has to do with staffing.-
I-and_I 5-suppose a lot of the people who came into the HRC in 6
the early part of our careers assumed that -the nuclear-industry was going to be something that was going to O
8 be expanding through -the end: of this ; century ;and..
9 beyond.
That's not happening.
For-some time now, we-10
. have been expecting proposals from management dealing.
?
11 with the focus of the Agency as the focus changes =from 12 nuclear power reactors, licensing, research'in.that 13 area, to what the NRC is going to be like in the 21st 14 century. We don't see that happening.
In fact we see 15 -
in those areas an increase in staffing that has been:
16 occurring.in'the 1980s and early 1990s.
17 One of - the-fears : that1we have is. that-18
-somewhere down the road, either through congressional 19 action or court action, the NRC is going to be placedl 20 in a RIF.-situation, a situation'far -- in the. case.of-21 NRR and some-other reactc.r-related offices, a ' RIFE 22 situation'far more severe than what:we' encountered'in 2 3 --
NRR in the mid-1980s.
24 What we would like to -- the problems that -
25 this really focused on, the hearing regarding a second -
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=
29-1-
-building.-
- As - you know, there's - a.dif ference of 2
opinionibetween management ~ staff-and'NTEU regarding 3-
- how the second building should be configured.
In that 4
hearing, one of the documents that -- I-should say 5
after the hearing.
One of the documents that the NRC 6
attempted to introduce was a document showing that the 7'
fifth and sixth floor in thic building will be -
8 required for NRR expanaion. That doesn't seera-to mesh 9
up with the licensing needs that at least'I perceive 10
.that is going to be needed for the rest ' ' of this-11 century and beyond.
Something may change.
Hopefully 12 it does.
'But it looks like we are sort-of waiting:
13 around for either Congress or the courts.to act.
The 14 problem with that is that the veterans - preference-15 that's in the law is going to create a situation where 16 women and a 1ot of minorities-are going' to--be
~
17 disadvantaged if you-get into a-RIF situation; 18 So, I'd like'to see-someiaction on the 19 part of the Commission to move into that mode through attrition so that-we don't have a RIF somewhereIdown 20 21 the road.
22 Thank:you.
23-CHAIRMAN SELIN:. Thank you.
24 Comments?'
-25 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
I have one NEAL-R. GROSS
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30 1
question for you since you brought up the issue - of 2
rotation..
It's my understanding that that's 3
particularly dif ficult at the clerical level.
Is this 4
e problem that's unsolvable or are we --
5 MR.
BIRD:
I don't believe it's 6
unsolvable.
I certainly agree with Jim that we can't place the onus on an employee to find a replacement 7
8 for him or herself.
We do work very-hard to try to 9
get within offices, particularly in the area of 10 secretaries where there's a base of employusnt in a 11 relatively large office, something set up so that 12 those who want to participate can do it in a timely 13 fashion.
Maybe not all at once, but certainly in 14 looking at it from an office perspective, those 15 rotations can be worked out.
16 We've looked into the use of the private 17 sector temp authority for this purpose and we're right 18 now as an Agency very liberally applying that.
There 19 nay be some latitude to use that to bridge this.
I 20 hate to commit to that right now because it's not 21 clear the extent to which our authority, to operate 22 within the law permits us to do that.
Certainly we 23 know that we hase some latitude that other agencies 24 don't.
We have to be very careful when we're not 25 dealing in the technical scientific area to apply.the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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31-1
' latitude-and jeopardize to. any - extentf ouro accepted 2
authority. We're very careful in that particular, case-3 when we're' replacing secretaries to be sure that~we.
4.
4 don't-use the private sector-temp to develop an 5
employer-employee relationship.
There's some-very:
6 strict requirements that apply there on days that the 7
private ENtor temps can work, on the length of time 8
the private sector temps can - be in ' place' in _ a 9
particular job.
Within thct. framework, to the extent 10 there is some latitude, we try to do that.
~
11 But we also work across offices in that-12 regard.
If we can find a secretary-in office A who's' 13 basically at a' level of a secretary in. office B, we 14 facilitate those interchanges and I think we've done
- 15 quite well as an Agency in being able to bring those-16 about.
We can't-do every case at once and I!think 17 that's-something that we're. working.on again:with the-18 offices to see what. we can ' do within the office 19 framework to stage those.
But we are looking'at some opportunities' to - be able - _to-. -help ~ that-20 additional 21 cituation, particularly with clerical ~,' secretarial and.-
22
-support staff employees.
23 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
Okay.
. 24 MR. TAYLOR: -Thanks, Jim.
25 At this point the staff and ' all - the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1123 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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32-l 1
participants from the committees are prepared to 2
answer qucstions from the Commission.
i 3
CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Let me start with the 4
Hispanics.
There's lots of room for improvement in 5
our performance in a number of areas, but that's the 6
one area that really comes out.
It's hard even to see 7
-- the programs sound pretty good, but it's hard even 8
to see a beginning, a start on solving the problems there.
Are we doing the right thing, it takes lor.ger?
10 Are we not doing the right thing?
What's our 11 assessment of what's going on in this particular --
12 MR. BIRD:
Well, I think the data that's 13 in the paper here is this past fiscal year.
I'm glad 14 to say that in the early portion of this year there 15 are some indications that this focus and this effort 16 is beginning to pay off.
We've had several 17 acceptances from Hispanic employees.- At the same time 18 I say that, it's a little disappointing that we're 19 still getting where we've made bona fide of fers, some 20 turn downs, again mostly related to an unwillingness 21 to move.
A lot of the effort has been directed to 22 areas of the country in the western part of the 23 country where there's somewhat of a reluctance to
~
24 locate to Washington and most of the job opportunities 25 have been in the Washington metropolitan area.
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33 on the side of clerical and support staf f 1
2 recruitment, we've worked very, very hard in the 3
community and I've been quite surprised to find that 4
we haven't had a lot of success in the immediate area 5
in hiring in that particular area.
Again we have one problem with citizenship, non-citizens that are in the 6
7 work force.
We're again working directly in the 8
community now to try to help not only in the 9
recruitment of these individuals but in the 10 development of the skills of these individuals, work 11 with them on getting the skills that we need in order 12 to bring them into the mix 13 But I'm with you, I'm not satisfied with 14 the progress with Hispanics.
It's the one group 15 that's under represented - in almost every category 16 across the line.
But I think the focus is correct.
17 I think the recruitment effort is good and I think 18 we're beginning to see some payof f now that would show 19 up hopefully by the next briefing.
I think in the 20 long term we'll get a corner on this, but there's a 21 lot of effort that will have to continue to go into 22 that particular focus.
23 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Do you have anything --
24 MS. LOPEZ-OTIN:
I just wanted to add I-25 just got back from a recruitment trip and we're NEAL R. GROSS COURT RPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVENVE, N W.
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34 1
bringing back threo qualified Hispanics and I think 2
that one has already been interviewed.
Hopefully 3
we'll get him.
He's willing to move.
We also got an 4
African-American from Haiti, a citizen, and I was told 5
that he's going to given an office.
6 Our statements speak for ourselves.
We 7
would like some creative measures and I'm sorry to say 8
I can't even tell you what they would be right now.
9 I have been working with Paul some to see what we can 10 do because something is needed.
I can't tell you what 11 the barriers are other than now maybe recruitment in 12 the East Coast may have some payoff and some kind of 13 mentoring, more focus on the people who are already 14 here so that we can bring -- as you know, we're very 15 close knit.
Somehow we talk to each other whether 16 we're Colombians or Peruvians and maybe we ourselves 17 see some progress inside the Agency that could also 18 help on the recruitment.
19 MR. BIRD:
I would like to thank Maria for 20 one for participating in our ad campaign.
As you-21
- know, we featured some of our employees in ads 22 throughout the country.
There's been quite a good 23 response to that.
24 Maria, you made an excellent model for the 25 ad.
We appreciate it.
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.1 1
Thank you.-
2' MR.- BIRD:
That kind'of effort, I think,
'3 will help because in this area people tend to identify
)
4 with other. Hispanics.
We've had-Jose Calvo, _for-5 example, has had direct calls.
I think Maria has had 6
some direct calls from people who might not'otherwise 7
have contacted the Agency.
So,_we believe that's a 8
very positive offort that may' bring 'some results.
9 MR. TAYLOR:
Any questions, sir?
10 CHAIRMAN SELIN: Well, I wanted to ask you-11 a question about African-Americans in these mid-12 grades.
Are-we really getting ' a flow: ~ of people 13 through the grades? It's sort of hard to.tell without 14 looking at the transitions.
The number of 13s has 15 increased significantly.
The number of -15s has -
16 increased a little bit. -Are-we getting more people 17 into this pre-SES-pool?'
18 MR..- BIRD: In expanding to the outside, in 19 bringing in directly from-the outside, I don't:think
'20
- he progress has been that good-for African-Americans.
21-I.
think we can do
- a. better: job-there finding-
'i 22 experienced African-American employees and-We're-23
- trying to identify them. Certalnly within the industry 24 we work in, however,'the private sector employer is-25 quite_ intent on keeping L that focus as. well.
.We NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS.
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sometimes find - oursolves in. bidding wars where :we:
2 don't win when we're competitive.-
3 We have_made_ progress'again~at-the. entry.
4 levels to a greater extent than we have-in expanding-5 the bases at the higher levels.
Mors effort is needed 6
there and we're focusing our_ recruitment efforts now 7
on that experience base to'a greater extent _than-we 8
have in the past.
9 MS. MAUPIN:
I would al.so like to respond 10 to that question.
13 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Please.
12 MS. MAUPIN:
Basically. we thought ~ that 13 maybe in addition to looking at-the' time in grade _in-14 terms of male and female that's presented-here in this U
15 paper, that we might also want to look at time in 16 grade for African-Americans. :That way you can get a' 17 clearer picture in teins of if African-Americans are 18 truly moving up or are they being pigeonholed in some 19 grades.
20 CHAIRMAN SELIN:'
I think that would be 21 useful.
The thing that's hard'to get a. feeling on is-
-22 the following.
.It's clear = that 'you can't. j ust" 23 overnight change -patterns' at say the _SES level..
24 You've got to_ hire people at-a number of different' Just trying 'to recruit a small. number of very.
25-areas.
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- l 1
highly qualified GG-14s so we have some-bottor numbers 2
isn't going to do it.
But_without-better profiles,--
y 3
it's hard to see if we're getting more good people-i 4-into the system at all stages, primarily at_the entry 1
level and bringing them_or whether it's just sort of' 5
6 a few quick victories with a few outside recruitments.
7 And maybe some of the time in grade-statistics broken 8
down by different groups would give us an insight into
-l 9
that.
10 MR. BIRD:
We can certainly do that.
As 11 you know, having read the paper, we're working very 12 closely with IRM to try to enhance our ability to do 13 that kind of study.
Right now 'we have-several-14 different databases running on dif ferent. hardware, 15 utilizing different software.
S o -- _ it - makes' ' it.'
16 sometimes hard to do these cross cuts and historically _
17 particularly.
If_uc can get a consolidated database 18 that allows us to do that a-little more efficiently, 19 I think we.can do this a lot more often.
That's our=
20 hope, as well as being able to take our best qualified '
21 list and other measures that we might have an automate 22-them so that we can run this data without having to do 23 it manually..
24 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
I would
'like to 25 reemphasize _the point that the objective is to have-NEAL R. GROSS COUF T PFPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHOCE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.
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+
- 3 8.- -better results and not just nicer charts, in spite (ofL 2
what I'm about to ask you.
3
-The third area where I have'some unusual 4
! interest is_have we been able'to figure out a way to 5
correlate. Vhat are clear - improvements; in the' 6
availability of training and rotations-to women and; 7
minorities and other groups?- _Have'We.been-able to-8 correlate these improvements with any: improvements in.
9 assignments?.
You know, the last thingiyou.want?-is.
T 10 people getting trained and rotated and then sent back i
11 to the job where they started from as if they.hadn't 9
12 got this training and additional opportunities.
Can 13 we see if the improvements _in access to training and-14 rotation are reflected not just in overall statistics 15 but individuals _doing better,-getting more promis'ing.
16 assignments after the training period is over?
17 MR. BIRD:'
Well, here again, _ we ' re _ now -
18 developing indicators for all the programs that we're:
19 running so that we can then track individual' employ _ees 20 in that context.
Right'now, again, we findfitLvery, 21 very hard-to do that except for'doing it manually, 22 going to hard._ copy records and that sort of thing.
23 But _ we ' re - putting. the designators in,. we're doing-24 reprogramming ' to '. try to be able to identify f by
- ~
25 individual employee against all the demographics those NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRtBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
39[
1:
variables.so that we can-do the kinds-of;-things that:
2
'you're talking.about with some ease.
3-We'v1 done this ailittle bit now in a few 4
cases, but certainly not as often as we would like to..
5 It's very, very difficult to be able~to do that. - We
~
6 haven't had those indicators in the past - in the 7
systr,m.
When we have those available to us, and.we 8
are working on that right now with IRM,. then we shouldz 9
be able to track this.over a--progression-of history-10 and show the results and whether or not-people Who.
11 avail themselves of this training' and-these' rotations 12 have made-progress in the Agency.
13 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Is there any anecdotal 14 information from any of the groups about what' happens 15 to people after they get into.theLtraining rotation 16 program?
17 MR.
PITTIGLIO:
-Let me; just: 1make. a 18-comment.
I think that was one of the major concerns 19 that we brought up at the last briefing, was the fact.
20' that once somebody completed a rotational assignment:
21 and was. very successful, they wound up going back' to 22 where they were.
The response, I. guess, that L we -
23-received at that time was the bottom line is that;it 24 was just an FTE issue'and I don't know whether'that
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-1 with that individual' and forcesJ them' back =to othere 2
they go.-
Until that: issue is-resolved,-I don't know-3 what will happen.
But I have talked to:a-.few people.
4 that have gone - through the program, -. rotated into a 5
different area and are now back working, for example, 6
at the secretarial level.
7 MR.
BIRD:
Yes.
=Again, having participated in the program doesn't necessarily result 8
9 in a reassignment.
In some-cases certainly-.that has 10 been the result.
In other cases it has not.
. Th'e -
if.it's across 11 employee generally is shared 12 of fices, f rom one of fice t'o another, in ef fect there's -
13 a
return expected at the' end of the rotational 14 assignment and there again there's not an automatic 15 bridge or an automatic solution or another employee 16 who shows up as a replacement for rotation. These are 17 generally lateral.
They're at the same' grade-level 18 and hopefully they are-not.far departures ~from--that, 19 although people have found work in other areas-to be 20 more satisfying than the work _ they. may' have ' been I
.21 doing.
22 We don't have a total solution--to'that, 23 but_we_are working with these individuals'and I think 24-even some'of the cases that you were citing: earlier 25 have been resolved now-in favor of the employee moving NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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on into the areas that they're more interested in.
2 CHAIRMAN SELIll:
Does the women's program.
3 or the black program or the Latin program have any particular feedback on this one way or another?
4 5
MS.
LOPEZ-OTIN:
We had two of our 6
Hispanic employees who talked to rae and to someone
?
else who were asked the same thing that Jim Thomas was 8
talking about, "Before we do anything with you, you 9
have to find your own replacement."
That turned out 10 to be too hard for them to do.
So, some sort of pool 11 or working with Paul, which we're going to be doing, 12 about counseling these people of how do you really do 13 it, especially now that we're competing I think for 14 rotational may clear that up.
Otherwise we have a 15 problem.
16 MR. BIRD:
We've been fairly successful 17 when we've worked directly with the managers.
When 18 we're brought into the loop, I think we can get to the 19 resolution more often than not.
20 MS. DeFINO:
FWPAC would encourage the 21 Agency to do some better tracking of rotational 22 assignments of people, especially of women who have 23 more instances of rotational assignments.
Also, the 24 Agency has gone to great expense to put programs.in 25 place for development of women and minorities and we'd NEAL R. GROSS COU9T REPORTERS AND TRANGCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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1 like to see'some monitoring of_the: program _successos,
-2' especially' in both the -. n e w institution 7 of-the-3 Supervisory LDevSlopment~ Program = and-tho'; Career-4 Development Program.
5 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Did you - want to: say i
6 something?-
7 MS. MAUPIN:
-In -looking ' at it from-'an-8 African-American perspective, I know a. lot of times in _
9 the past these rotational assignments came-more so as 10 a word of mouth type of thing. -It was more so who._you 11 knew.
~f you knew something then-in' turn there.was-12 the possibility you could get a rotational. assignment,.
13 that you could become aware that there was_an' opening =
14 of a rotational assignment.
But as the new process:
15 proceeds, we will have the opportunity to compete and.
16-hopefully we would get better representation and' 17 better achievements-through'.that program.
~
18 But we would.Iike to be. involved infthe ~
19 process.
As Clare just stated, we would likei.to 20 piggyback.
We would like to have some monitoring of-21 these programs.
There have been -a significant -number -
22 of programs.that have been developed, the mentoring.
23 program,.. the IDP program, but we have 7 _ no type of:
24 feedback in terms of~the successes'of these programs.
[
t 25 CHAIRMAN'SELIN:
Let's take the program NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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4 43; 1
that Ms.-. DeFino_ mentioned, the Supervisory.Dovelopment-'
2 Program.-
What kind -~ of ' results have we _.had there?
3 Have they been. popular?
4 MR. BIRD:- Certainly popular in terms-of-5 responses.
.I think both the Supervisory Development-6 Program and the SES Candidate Development Program have-7
. elicited a very large response.
Now, those have'not 8
come-in at this -point to the central 7 source.
Thei 9
original applications have gone to the offices.--Those 10 in March of this year will be looked at centrally and-11 we _ are - developing a - tracking system to.know the 12 profile of the candidates.as well as the profile of.
13 those selected and we can track that then throughout 14 the duration of those programs and into the. future.
so we d be:in a'better' 8
15 So, we are building that out 16 position to evalur.te progress for those who : have 17 participated in the program.
18 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Is:[it too earlyEto.have:
19 some feeling for the response of the people,in the-
~
20 program?
21 MR. BIRD:
I would believe so, yes.-
22 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
And -finally, my. last 23 question before I go:an.- Whats about the professionali 24 track at the ' SLS-level?
Not. the SES, but ' the 25 technical and professicnal' track.
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activity there?
2 MR. BIRD:
We're just now starting.
We 3
have some competition underway right now at that~
4 level.
This is the first time that.we've actually 5
been introducing jobs at that level to that 6
cornpetition and there's been good interest, I would 7
say.
These are very specialized skill areas.
So, 8
we're not getting hundreds of employees interested, 9
but we're having our share of employee interest as 10 well as outside interest in those jobs that we've 11 advertised so far and there's several that are about 12 to be advertised throughout the Agency and throughout 13 the country in the senior level.
14 Cl! AIRMAN SELIN:
Commissioner Rogers?
15 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
- Well, just 16 continuing on that line, do you have any numbers, 17 total numbers of those positions that you've 18 identified so far and where they are in NRR, NMSS, 19 Research?
20 MR. BIRD:
I don't have the number handy 21 in front of me, but I can tell you that NRR, the 22 Office of Research and NMSS have been the three 23 principal offices. for which there has been some-21 designation and there are about, if I'm remembering 25 correctly, ten jobs that are working their way into NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I
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1 45' 1-some form of competition. We' r.. proceeding caref ully, 2
but we are proceeding.
.There's an ERB, or -I should' 3
say a senior level review board process that has been 4
involved.here.
Mr. Taylor and ERB have been involved 5
and I think there are about ten of those that will 6
occur during the next few months.
1 7
COMMISSIONER ROGERS:. Well, I think we'd 8
probably like to hear how that comes out ~ in toto,.
9 including how many minority and women candidates there 10 are that present themselves for those positions and 11 how they succeed.
12 MR. BIRD:
We'll certainly track that.
13 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
I think another 14 point in this program, I think this is an excellent-i.
15 move.
It will take some time for it to develop.at-NRC 16 as a really recognized career track in a = certain 17
- sense, the way SES is, but FI wonder if-' you : are 18 starting to think about ways of-developing 19 professionally while at NRC to. qualify.for those in p
20 the same way that we look at ways to develop potential 21 managers.
It seems to me that while-it's not quite-22 the same, it is a bit different, it's still: equally-23 important that we-think of ways ~ of developing the -
~
-24 technical skills of people to ultimately qualify for 25-those senior scientific and engineering - positions.
l NEAL R, GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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46 s
1 That's just as important to us as qualified managora.
2 So, both aspects of career development, I think, are 3
important in the future.
4 Obviously the scientific senior.lovel and L
5 engineering senior level positions require a different 6
approach from those for executive-management 7
positions, but I think that jMt thinking about how to 8
do that is very salutary.
9 MR. DIRD We have thought of that, been 10 thinking about how to address that. Certainly there's 11 no training that we provide now that's directly 12 related to these career fields.
But we've talked with 13 TTC and there is some outside training that's in line 14 with some of those and we certainly-would be open to 15 support that.
16 COMMISSIONER ROGERS _t Well, you know, a 17 scientific or engineering mentoring~ program could be 18 very important there.-
We think of that at lower 19 levels, but it could'be very valuable in strengthening 20 hternally our whole technical area where outstanding.
21 technicallpeople act as--mentors for others, younger 22 people coming _-up who might want to somehow develop the 4
23-same_' kind of expertise in a.particular-' area that one 24 cf the distinguished.SLS _ people - 'at.
NRC already--
.25 pos:tesses. Yes.
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MR. TAYLORt We have out iirst graduate 2
followship too.
3 COMMISSIO!!ER ROGERS:
Yoc.
4 MR.
TAYLOR Which I
think is very 5
important in an area where we need this type of 6
expertise in the staff.
It's in digital 7
instrumentation IllC.
8 COMMISSIOllER ROGERS:
Well, I think that going outside, for training outside, education outside 9
10 is
- fine, but I think inside we have some real resourecs that we can tap as well to think of creative 11 12 ways of doing that should be encouraged.
13 It seems to me in looking at the report 14 that while I quite agree that with the Chairman's 15 observations about pools of people, I think we 16 still -- the report in some way comes through to me as 17 suggesting we still have a
significant internal 18 problem in several ways.
If I look at the committees 19
-- the last enclosure to the report, Section 4, there 20 was an issue relating to communication of EEO goals 21 and objectives on page 4.8.
It seemed to me that the 22 issue raised was that the commi.ttee is concerned about 23 a perceived lack of management support in EEO-related This issue was raised at the last Commission 24 areas.
25 briefing and the committee believes that it's not been NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRAh5CRIBERS
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resolved.
2 The responce to that, while I won't take 3
the time to read it, seemed to me just totally empty.
4 It didn't say anything.
It said, "Yes, there's a 5
problem.
This is a difficult area.
There's problems 6
with it," but didn't of fer any constructive specifics -
7 in that response.
It seems to no that that's a 8
serious problem that we have, I believe.
9 As evidence of that, if you look at your 10 own data in the earlier Section 3 of the report where 11 the SES ratings on the EEO subelement were listed.
12 There's no page on that, but it's request number 3 in 13 onclosure 3.
I noticed that the percentage that are 14 rated outstanding in the different
- areas, that 15 Research for-instance has only 16 percent of its-SES 16 managers rated outstanding.
I think that's' abysmal.
17 That's a serious' problem.
18 If we look at where by. position the 19 ratings of outstandings fall, it's clear that the 20 first level management with only a rating of -- with
'21 only 39-percent of those managers, at first level 22 management are rated outstanding, there)s a serious the failure-to 23 problem.
It seems to me that's 24-recognize _ the'. necessity and achieving _ success in 25 communication of EE0 goals and objectiv5s within the NEAL R. GROSS COURT HEPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS..
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1 organisation is clear from these numbers, that we're 2
not doing very well with some of our senior managers.
3 Particularly sensitive is the first level management.
4 That's really where many of the problems arise in 5
advancement and that's the lowest percentage of i
6 outstanding ratings by group.
~
7 So, it seems to me that we have somo 8
internal difficulties besides those that relate to 9
attracting more people into the Agency.
I think-wo 10 have to look very, very carefully at the performance 11 of our managers in EE0 ratings.
It seems to me that 12 a percentage of 16 percent in any particular section 13 of our activities is just unacceptabic of. outstanding.
14 The total NRC, it's 45 percent.
15 So, I would say tPose are'some - matters-16 that I'm particularly conce.rned about that seem to 17 just hop right.out at me as I_look at-this report.
~
18 So, I
think communication, successful-19 communication of EEO' objectives has got to have'.more 20 success.
I-don't-know whether -it -needs -more 21 attention, but it seems it-needs more success.- It's 22 not taking hold.
23 I wondered if you wanted to comment on
?
24 that.
25 MR. BIRD:
Well, I-certainl'y)am familiar NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $
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50 1
with the data and the communication reaching the first level supervisor.
Certainly that's in essence where 3
things get done or don't get done.
We are concerned 4
about that.
We've talked about that a lot with the 5
EEO committees in our regular meetings.
We have 6
talked about that at the latest senior management 7
meeting.
I attended that meeting and that was one of 8
the subjects that was discussed with the office 9
directors at that meeting.
I think there's great room 10 for improvement there, making sure that the commitment 11 and the effort is carried on at that first line level--
12 is the hoy to future success.
13 MR. TAYLOR:
We have Barbara Williams who-14 spends a lot of time in that area.
I wonder if she'd-15 care to add to
- that, talking to first level 16 supervisors.
She's principal assistant in Personnel 17 for these matters.
18 MS. WILLIAMS:
Good afternoon.
What I'd 19 like to add is that what I try to do on a daily basis ~
20 is meet with employees who cither contact me - with.
21 individual kinds of problems from their perspective 22 related to their assignments, in terms of what they 23 perceive is fair treatment - related to performance 24 appraisal ratings, attitudinal kinds of problems, what 25 have you.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RMODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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51 In turn, what I always try to do with that 1
2 is to take it back to the manager position, back to the innager's lap no to speak to make sure that the 3
4 two people come back to a
point where they're 5
communicating.
So, mine is much more of an individual kind of process on a day to day basis as opposed to 6
7 being more global.
But we do try to get employees and 8
managers talking at the first line levels and sometimes we do have to take it all the way up to the 9
10 division director's level and the office director's 11 level.
12 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Well, I'm not real.1,y 13 talking about difficulties.
I'm talking abeat 14 communicating tne top level policy position of this 15 organization all the way down to first level managers-16 MS. WILLIAMS:
Okay.
17 CO!4MISSIONER ROGERS:
That's what I'm 18 concerned about.
This kind of communication involves 19 two elements.
There's the transmitter and the 20 receiver.
The transmitter can be at full power and 21 the receiver can be turned off and there's no 22 communication then.
I think we've got *.o find a way 23 to make sure that that message is received and acted 24 upon.
That's why I think that the EEO ratings in 25 performance evaluations ot managers are extremely NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W.
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important.
I think that's one way to find out whether I
2 that message is getting across or not.
3 MR. TAYLOR:
I think part of this growth 4
there, we'd have to go back to the statistics, but a 5
lot of people were getting outstanding when they 6
didn't rate it.
7 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Well, that's another 8
aspect, of course.
9 MR. TAYLOR: That is an issue, people that 10 get outstanding in the EEO areas where they didn't 11 rate it.
12 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
- Well, that's a
separate issue and I have -- when you present me with 13 14 some numbers, I have to assume the numbers have some 15 validity.
If they don't, that's another question.
16 MR. TAYLOR:
But you need to look at where 17 it was in years past too because people weren't paying 18 attention in this area and it is an area of emphasis.
19 So, I think the fact that there aren't that many 20 outstandings should be 4.ndicative of management 21 insisting that people be 's. rly evaluating supervisory 22 positions in EEO.
23 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Well, I quite agree 24 with you, Jim, that we have to be careful about 25 outstanding ratings.
However, I have to assume that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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53 I
'l there's some kind of uniformity =in the-organization 2
and when there's a big disparity betwoon levels, then
- 1 3
I think there's a message there.
Whether 39 percent 4
is really a good number or not is not really what I'm 5
arguing about.
Maybe that's a very good number and 6
maybe some of the other ones maybe other ratings are j
~ \\
l 7
too high, but I'm saying when I look at _one area l
8 versus others, one level versus others, I assume that
]
9 they're being rated on something of a. comparable 1
10 basis.
Otherwise it's another kind of problem.
11 MS. WILLIAMS - Additionally, if I can add 12 also, one of the things that we've tried to..do in-to--
i i
13 get with individual offices.
What I've. additionally.
' 14 done in to meet with managers and supervisors 15' separately in offices to communicate-with them'whatL lb the EDO's policy ' is and what his position-is on 17 awareness in the Agency about EEO.-
18 The very first year, which is a year ago, 19-we really were very, very proactive in that process i
20-and-- we tried to get back to 'all of: the' of fices-21-including the. regions at least biannually for that 22 process.
Thel managers - have been -very, very : well' a
23-attendant in this process.. The office directors and=
- 24 the ' regional administrators have mado a: commitmenti 25
. that their managers and supervisors will attend.these :
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ceasions.
2 Secondly, we asked that all interested 3
employees also attend a separate' session so they too 4
can voice their opinions and/or concerns about various 5
kinds of EEO-related issues or problems, individual 6
problems that they may be having.
So, We are trying' 7
to do more PR, if you would call-it that, of-this a
particular awareness process and ~ we will be doing 9
- more, 10 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Thank you.
11 COMMISSIONER de P6. JE:
Can I make.a 12 comment on that issue?
33 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Yes.
l'4 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE: ~It's funny what 15 you can do with statistics when,you really try.
I 16 think
'I ha'd asked for these numbers at.'the last 17 briefing because 2 had the suspicion ' that maybe we 18 weren't using this as. an-effective
. tool- 'for 19 affirmative action.
If youiread the.subelement, one 20 wonders if 100-percent of the managers here, which.is-21-what the bottom line amounts to, are really excellent 22 and outstanding in-this area.
23 While_ I didn.'t have
'92' statistics.
' 24
.available to-me, I went back-and I looked'at'the '91 i
25 SES ratings overall and I found it kind of-interesting NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCA SERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENVE N W -
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55 that the outstandings were 42 percent and if you look 1
2 at the subelement of EEO for '92 I realize it's two 3
difforent years, but I'm assuming they're relatively 4
close, top management was 44, SES was 45.
So, those 5
numbers are very close.
The same thing happens with 6
the excellent.
The overall rating is 57 percent and 7
the ECO is 56 and S5 for those two groups.
The question that raises in my mind, since 8
9 we know we have big problems in the EEO area, what 10 doen it say about perfcrmance overall.
So, you can 11 look at this several different ways, but I guess I 12 wculd like to look at it as a tool.
There should be 13 more uniformity of judgment into how one performs 14 under that subelement.
But I think it's c1carly a 15 tool and I'm not sure it's being used offectively as 16 such.
17 COMMISSIOllER ROGERS: If I could just turn 18 to the Joint Labor-Management Equal Opportunity 19 Committee Report, there was a comment in there that 20 the committee doesn't recommend that the policy 21 statement that was being developed at the time that 22 they wrote this, I guess, be issued in its current
?3 form because it's not offective and does not 24 necessarily reflect the concerns of the parties 25 affected.
Where does that stand?
This announcement-NEAL R. GROSS COUAT HEPORTERS AND TRANSCAtDERS 1323 AHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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that came out on February 3rd, I take it, is not the 2
policy statement.
This is just a statement of some 3
information, of some examples of things that we're not 4
going to tolerate.
5 MR. BIRD:
Right.
6 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
But where does the 7
policy statement itself stand?
8 MR. BIRD: The policy statement is soon to 9
be issued in March, I believe it is.
We've had 10 interaction with the employee groups on this.
We've 11 recently gotten input from all of them.
There was 12 certainly a lot of involvement by OGC and other 13 interested parties in the organization in. developing 34 that.
I think the latest-version that I saw.would 15 certainly. respond to the concerns of the past and-16 again we've gotten a lot of input from.the various 17 parties at the table and we appreciate that.
I think 18 the policy book, if you'will, will answer a lot of 19.
questions fro.3 a lot of different perspectives here 20 and certainly it's timely to go ahead now and get it 21 out.
I' believe that's already been sent to - the -
22 publisher, if I'm not mistaken.
23 MR. PITTIGLIO: -
Could I make a commentL.
24 regarding - that?
Our committeo ' is providing some
-25 additional comments.
We : have reviewed it.
Our NEAL R. GROSS -
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57 1-comments have not been incorporated and we haven't 2
provided them, but there were some comments in the 3
initial policy statement in the revised version that 4
causes some problems.
5 for example, when you read the statement, 6
it indicated one of the problems may be the dress of 7
the individual.
It went from a policy statement to a 8
how-to to avoid sexual harassment.
When you read it, it to me gave the impression that~it was again pushing.
9 10 the burden back on the individual rather than 11 establishing guidelines for the Agency..
It didn't.
12 heavily emphasize what was the implications for 13 violation of a sexual harassment.
Again,. it just put 14 the burden back on the employee.
15 I
understand that dress could be a-16 problem, but I don't.think that that' is appropriate to-17 be put in a policy statement. And certainly who would 18 be adequately able to judge what -il.L appropriate dress 19 and those kinds of issues was the comment that1our 20 committee made. We intend:to provide comments,.but we.
21 have not at this time yet provided them.
22 MR.-BIRD:
We had the. comments.
When y_ou
-4 23 provided it-or.not, we. wore certainly aware of it,(
^
'24
. Larry, and there:is nothing in'there to.that affect.
225
'MR.
PITTIGLIO:-
Yes, I:provided:that.to
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1 Barbara about two or three days before it went in.
2 But that was only one of-several comments.
That was 3
a concern. _It was the connotation of those types of 4
statements that caused problems.
I'm not sure that --
5 I talked to other committees.
I'm sure the Federal 6
Women's Program had some comments and I don't know 7
whether they were incorporated or not.
I think if 8
it's going to be an agency position, it shouldlbest 9
reflect the interested parties.
10 MR. BIRD: We totally agree and that's why 11 we'd asked al) the committees to give us their 12 comments.
We set a deadline for that.
We had 13 comments, including those from your committee, to the 14 extent we had them in.
We'd certainly entertain any 15 further comments that you have, Larry.
16 MR. PITTIGLIO: Well, we intend to provide -
17 comments within the next month to you on that 18 statement.
19 MR. BIRD:'
Certainly we would appreciate 20 that at any time.
We did take that1particular_ issue 21 into account and the language does not reflect that.
22 COMMISSIONER' ROGERS:
There was also.in 23 that report some comments about the amount _of_ time 24 that could be_used on EEO' activities and that there 25 was one amount of time chat was a one hour limit'per NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS '
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month that was then changed to take it four hours per 2
month.
But I think that it seems to me that I don't 3
know what's the right amount of time and I wouldn't 4
attempt to judge that, but it does seem to me that 5
that episode illustratec a lack of communication. You shouldn't put something out even on a tentative basis 6
that raises such an uproar that you have to change it 7
by multiplying it by a factor of four.
8 9
I mean I would think that somehow the 10 dialogue should be such that it's a sensitive area.
11 The perception is that these things are not being 12 taken seriously enough by management.
I don't think 13 that's correct, but I think it seems to me it's a 14 fumble.
I think that one ought to be able to come a 15 little closet to something that you can stand by and 16 stick with by having talked it out beforehand before 17 having to change substantially what that management 18 position would be, namely from one hour to four hours 19 per month.
20 MR. BIRD:
Ed, would you like to comment?
21 MR. TUCKER:
Yes.
It was a fumble.
It 22 wac a misunderstanding.
Some years back there was 23 some guidance provided to the committens in terms of 24 how they should operate.
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would follow.
We certainly understand that the 2-committees need much more than an hour to conduct 3
committee business.
In fact, they're spending more 4
than four hours if-you take into account all of the 5
additional activities they get involved in in 6
preparing for commission briefings. If the committees 7
are involved in special programs, then of course this 8
too is going to add to the time that they spend.
9 What we were trying to do is try to reach 10 some sort of agreement based on the concerns of the-
~
il management supervisory staff with respect to the 12 amount of time that committee members were spending on 13 committee activities vis-a-vis' their regular.
14 responsibilities.
We feel like there has to be some-15 balance in terms of --
16 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Oh, clearly.
17 MR. TUCKER:
-- whatJgoes on.
18 COMMISSIONER' ROGERS:
There has to=be.
19 MR. TUCKER: -We encourage the committees-20 to the extent possible to try to reconcile with their 21-supervisory staf f theE time -that. they' re going =.to be 22' spending on these types of_ activities and there has to 23 be some give and take.
~
24 COMMISS.ONER ROGERS:
My point is not-howl l
L 25 much time because I don't }inow 'what's the right. amount-l-
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~61-l' of time.
But my point is that I think that the l
j 2
communication should be such that when.you set a 3
number it's-one that is more easily accepted by l
l 4
everybody.
l 5
MR.
TUCKER:
- Well, it wasn't really l
6 setting a number, it was a draft' document.
We were 7
going out to the committees to find out --
8 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Yes, but when youl 9
put out a draft position, that says where you're 10 coming from.
It says where you stand at this point, 11 unless somebody pushes you to a different position.:
.{
12 It seems to me - that that initial position is an 13 important one because it carries a. message with it'..
14 That's really what I'm saying.
15 MR. TUCKER:
The point is.well taken.
16 MR.
PITTIGLIO:
Could: 1-make another-i 17 comment regarding that?
It caused a. burden on the 18'
. individual and -it's certainly not t h e ; c o m m i t t e e ' s :-
19 member to have to go. back to their management: to 1
20 justity.the position.
If'the Agency'_doesn't,wantLto 21' strongly support the committee's activities, that's 22-certainly an agencys position. But:-for an. individual:
23 or'a committee member to have to go back and; defend 24 their position.or tim'ais certainly. discouraging _and; 25 it makes it veryl dif ficult to try to recruit people to
~
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- participate in a committee that may be viewed as a 2
negative impact on their career.
3 COMMISSIONER _ CURTISS I-just have a 4
couple of questions' and a couple of comments.-
The t
5 questions are really on matters that we've spoken.
6 about at previous Commission meetings and I'd just 7
like to follow up on them here to see where we stand.
a
_ We've spoken on a number of occasions about the 9
- potential for some
- turnover, maybe some -higher 10 turnover in the SES and the management ranks here with t
11 the high three phenomenon with us now in calendar year-
)
12 1993.
4 13-Could you give us a current status report 14 on what you're expecting in terms of SES and senior GS-b 15 turnover this year and whether you're seeing roughly-r 16 the same level.of turnover retirements as we've seen 17 in the past or whether there's some; peak this year?
- 18 MR. BIRD:
Yes, I can certainly -- some of 19 the -- particularly at.the office director level,_we 20 are starting now to experience-some.of the turnover 21 that - we anticipated.
Certainly you're aware :thati 22 Harold Denton has announced his intentions.
Joe 23-Fouchard has announced his intentions.
So, we're 24 starting to see certainly signs _of the--turnover that -
25 we've been projecting.
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63 The best gauge Ior that is not only moving 1
2 into the zone of retirement but certainly the age 3
related to the zone which generally throughout 4
government is around age 60.
We have a chart that's in the paper, I can call that up if you'd like to take 5
6 a lcok at it, which responds to this.
It's the chart 7
on page 6.
Yes, it's on the board.
8 COMMISSIO!!ER CURTISS:
I guess what I wac really looking for is whether based upon what you had 9
10 soon roughly a year or so ago, you're projecting an 11 increase in the retirement in those ranks or whether 12 it's going to be relatively steady.
13 MR. BIRD:
llo.
Actually, we still feel 14 this is a good projection, particularly the second 15 line in that chart which shows the correlation between 16 being in the retirernent zone and the age.
Now, of 17 course, what will happen as we replace those who are 18 leaving, the numbers would potentially diminish in the 19 out yeers.
Presumably we would get people in that are 20 below age 60.
We would get people in place who would 21 be here for some duration.
So, the next time we give 22 you an update of this, it may have changed based on 23 those that are now leaving.
But we believe that those 24 numbers are still fairly good, particularly that line 25 that associates with age 60 and above.
That tends to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TPANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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1 track the rest of the government as well.
2 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
Okay.
The second l
3 area that I've actually raised in the past and'I'd f
4 just like an update on, we've of course got a day care l
5 center planned for the second building and as 1. see it 6
going up over there and at some point with us moving 7
into it, I assume that the plans are still moving 8
forward to go ahead with the-day care center and.
9 that's on schedule.
10 MR. BIRD:
Yes.
11 COMMISSIO!1ER CURTISS:
What is the 22 scheduled opening date for that?
Do you know.that?
13 MR. BIRD:
The scheduled opening date for 14 the day care center is September
'94.-
15 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
Okay.
16
~MR.
BIRD:
Things are in place for that.
17 Mr. Springer had mentioned.that there may be some 18 potential delay an~ the building is filled and as 19 carpet and that sort of thing is-installed, to make 20 sure that the building -- any of the gases or other 21 things that may be in the building.at the outset would-22 be eliminated.
But we're not expecting a delay-in-23 that.-
Cur plan-is'to open at'that time.
We-have 24 worked with a management group now to the point that_
25 we fool we'll be fully functional at - that.' time -
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provided the building is available for occupancy.
2 COMMISSIO!1ER CURTISS :
At some point here 3
soon, I assume we'll be moving into the process of 4
retaining people to actually staff the center?
5 MR. BIRD:
Yes.
We're already involved 6
with that.
Again we're getting outside help and 7
support with that.
We'll be looking for Agency 8
employees to serve as board members.
We're dealing 9
with liability insurance aspects of it and certainly 10 since you may have an interest, we may be interested 11 in having you participate.
12 COMMISSIO!iER CURTISS:
Okay.
13 MR. TAYIDR: You can tell he's looking for 14 volunteers.
15 MR. BIRD:
Yes, sir.
16 COMMISSIO!1ER CURTISS: You know my term is 17 up June 30th.
So, just keep that in mind.
18 MR. BIRD:
Well, we'll talk to the White 19 House.
20 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
I only have one 21 word of advice.
Don't hire any illegal aliens to 22 staff it or we'll all be in trouble.
23 I had two comments, one with regard to 24 HEPAC.
I would be particularly interested as you 25 evaluate the process over the next year whether you NEAL R. GROSS '
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think there are special things in terms of the r
2 retention efforts that we need to look at and 3
consider.
I know that's one that you've looked at.to 4
a degree in the past and are currently trying to come 5
to grips with just what is the best way to retain-i.
6 peopic,-particularly ones that come in the intern 7
- program, as you've pointed
- out, an area that's 8
particularly fruitful for recruitment.
We obviously.
9 invest a lot of our ef fort and resources in those i
10 people and if we're not doing what we need to to make
- i 11 sure that we keep them, I think that's an area that' f
12 could be fruitfully examined.
13 Finally, let me make' a comment on the 14 steps that you've outlined in the-sexual harassment 15 area.
I commend you for the high. degree, and 16 particularly'you, Mr. Taylor,-for the high degree of 17 attention and visibility that you're giving to that-18 issue.
I do think we have all experienced either.
19 individual cases -or reports on what's ' happening Ein -
20 this area and I trust we all feel.that any single case -
21 of sexual harassment-is one too many for the Agency.
22' The steps that ycu've outlined, I think,'
23 are steps that not only.Will give it a high. degree'of 24 visibility but will assure that everybody.Within-the' 25 Agency knows what the procedures are,J knows what the=
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]
1 sensitivities are and is fully familiar with the 2
Agency's commitment in that area to root out and l
3 address any kind of sexual harassment whatsoever.
i 4
Whether those steps are being taken fast enough or j
5 aggressively enough I think will probably ultimately 6
be proven in terms of whether we have succeeded in i
7 eliminating sexual harassment within thin Agency.
8 But I do want to commend you because I 9
know you've invested a considerable amount of your
-i 10 time in that-effort for the high level of attention 11 that you're giving it to the Agency and express my 12 personal support for that effort.
13 COMMISSIONER REMICK:
When Commissioner 14-Rogers suggested the possibility of a mentoring system t
15 for young technical folks who_might aspire to S LS.
36 positicns, the thought went through:my--mind that --
17 and I'll characterize.
I forget the exact titles --
18 distinguished scientists and enginears that we might-19 have might serve as a possible mentoring, particularly.
20 in the technical maybe-not the regulatory aspects of:
21 that type of job.
What is the status:of the senior-22 scientist'.and engineering program?
23 MR.
-BIRD:
We've.done considerable 24 recruitment with-regard to those programs. ~As of the-25 present moment, we haven't' identified anyone who would NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $
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be of the level that we believe would satiety the 2
requirements for that. We have some additional things j
3 planned.
For example, we're contacting all the 4
offices of state geologists looking for seismology 5
experts.
6 So f ar, I would have to characterize it as 7
not successful.
I think certainly people within the 8
community that we're involved with know the people who' 9
we might recogni::e as distinguished engineers and 10 scientists within that community.
Those particular 11 people have not yet opted to be candidates for the 12 program as we've laid it out.
We hav'e some visits to' 13 the national labs planned.
We're certainly expecting 14 that there would-be some ramifications-for the 15 national labs, a revamping if you will, and I believe 16
-there's some potential there_ -to - draw the types - of:
17 experts that we're looking for and' people -that we 18 might recognize as -distinguished engineers and 19 scientists from that effort.
extensive L
20 But so
- far, despite some 21 efforts, we have not had_any-success in--identifying 22 people who we _ feel would meet those particular l
1 l-23 requirements _'and have the credentials _ that we're-2 24 seeking.
So we have'not had a lot of success With:
25 that..However, I do appreciate the point'.that_should NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE t$(AND AVENUE N W.
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I wo identify those, they would certainly make good 2
mentors.
3 COMMISSIO!!ER REMICK:
Yoc.
If 3 recall, 4
those are positions that would be for a neveral year 5
period.
When we contact people, assuming we are, do 6
we point out the possibilition of the 7
Intergovernmental Personnel Mobility Act 0
MR. BIRD:
Yen.
9 COMMISSIO!1ER REMICK: -- possibly applying 10 to make it easier for them to considor a couple of 11 year change?
12 MR.
BIRD:
Yes.
I think with the 13 candidates we certainly outlined the options for 14 various types of employment that they might have or 15 affiliations they might have with the Agency.
We're 16 not restrictive there.
We're trying to leave as many 17 options as possible open so that if we find someone 18 who does fit the bill, we'll have the mechanism to be 19 able to put them in place quickly.
I think the 20 drawback though so far has boon that we haven't 21 identificd anyone who on staf f review has risen to the 22 lovel that we're seeking at this particular time.
4 23 COMMISSIONER REMICK:
Sometimes those 24 things work best by word of mouth.
In other words, 4
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breas in which we're seeking again? You ment ioned t.he 2
seismology area.
3 MR. BIRD:
Instrumentation and controls, 4
seismology, fracture mechanics and there's one other.
5 Is it metallurgy?
Criticality.
6 COMMISSIONER REMICK:
Criticality.
7 MR. BIRD:
Right.
8 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Commissioner?
9 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
I have a couple 10 of comments.
First of all, I'd like to thank you 11 again for the report because it gives us a good handle 12 on what's really going on and helps us to formulate 13 the next set of questions as you know usually come.
14 Dut it's becoming very easy to use.
So, I do thank 15 you for that.
16 I would like.to congratulate you on some 17 of the more creative programs I'm seeing in here this 18 time.. I think some of them are extremely interesting, 19 like advertising in the local Hispanic papers, just to-20 point odt an example.
But - I ' m seeing-a -lot-of 21 interesting new programs in here which I think are 22 very good.
23 We discussed the sexual harassment problem
-24 and I have made myself aware of a few of the cases.
25 one of the key problems I see again is that the system.
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1~
works in such a way that whether you like it or not it 2
almost becomes a formal process.
3 I just happened to notice in the Poderal 4
Ilmpa an interesting thing that the Navy is doing.- If 5
you haven't seen it yet, you may want to take a loch 6
at it.
They have a hotline now that they're using-7 whero someone can call anonymously to get'information 8
and that's not just for the harassed, but for someone 9
who thinks they may have dono sc,mething.
I thought it -
10 was an interesting approach. because right now it's 11 hard for-us to have any mechanism for an informal 12 testing of the watern on this and that just might do 13 that.
So, it might be something elso.
14 I know you'ro looking into a lot of 15 different programs, but that might be-ono you would 36 like to look into as well.
17 Do you know yet when tho'1990 Census data 18 will be available and when they can be used?
19 MR. DIRD:
Yes.
We.believe that that's 20 going to be availabic in March, April time frameiof 21 this year.
We're not exactly sure.what form it would:
22 be-availabic~in.
We know tho' data-is there.
Wo know 23 OPM has it and the BEOC has:it,;but they haven't dono 24:
the compilations by PATCO groups at this point.
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that~in March.
We've been told -- we've called them 2
rather incessantly because we've known for a long time 3
that we needed updated data.
4 COMMISSIOllER de PLA!1QUE:
Yes.
5 MR. BIRD:
We're told that that should be 6
available in March and hopefully in the form that-we 7
can use it.
8 COMMISSIOllER de PLAllQUE:
Okay.
You know 9
I've asked about this before and especially about the 10 use of national statistics versus regional statistics.-
11 That point came back to-mind again when I looked.at 12 the dif ficulties in recruiting Hispanic? with a target 13 of 20 and not getting anywhere near that target and 14 with the one indication here that people just didn't 15 want to relocate to Washington.
16 It occurs to me that when targets are set 17 it's very important to look at the regional statistics.
18 just for that sort of problem..It may be that-inisome
~
19 cases end for some categories our targets'.are too high 20 and unrealistic.
But'it may be in other' cases our 21 targets are much too low and not representative of the-22 local population.
So again when you.get Lthose 9 -
23 statistics,-I'd encourage'that._-
~ ' '
24 MR. BIRD:
Yes.
We're very interestedLin 25 looking at those cross cuts.1 As you may know, ' they've
- NEAL R. GROSS l..
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redefined the geographic
- area, particularly the 2
Unshington Metropolitan area,.
j and that-could 3
dramatically change the characteristics of tnat' 4
4 particular PATCO group.
But we haven't soon it.
'So, 5
I really don't know yet how that stacks up.
But 6
certain occupations, for example the secretarial 7
clerical occupations, are always going to be locally.
8 recruited.
9 COMMISSIOllER de PLANQUE:
Right.
10 MR.
BIRD:
So that's a
much better 11 indicator of the availability than ' the national 12 statistics.
One important thing to keep in mind, 13 however, with that data, is that it does. include non-14 citizen.
15 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
Yes,'I know.
16 MR. BTRDt And in many cases, if we're not 17 in the position to be abic to hire _non-citizens, we're 18 shown to - be more disadvantaged.and more under-19 represented than if you could gut that data without-20 that.
21 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:.Right.
2h MR.-BIRD:
But my understanding'is it-may.
23 not' be available without' -including the non-citizen.
- 24 oloment.
25-MS. LOPEZ-0 TIN:
Excuse me.
Looking. at.
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y v.
.74,
, the geographic area with-the downsizing of. DOD,;I know:.
2.
that DNA and some-of those places are really-full of 3
engineers which should be' capable-and less_ of-4 Hispanics are there, so maybe we can start working 5
there.
6 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
~Yes.
It's 7
important that yo'i look at it for the targets,_ so that' 8
they are realistic.
Some may need.to come up.
9 MS. LOPEZ-OTIN:' Right.
10 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
I' have :a 11 question-on t?? statistics on page -1. 5.
I always want 12 to get out my calculator and I did it in this case and
~
13 I found myself frustrated.
This is-on professional-14 hires, comparing the profils, of those> hires vercua 15
- the applicants, and.I'm struck by the ' f act that almost <
16 half-are-unaccounted for'in the total applicants, the:
17 797 that you could not identify that were not self-18 identificit or you didn't know.
19 Is there any way to improve
'those-20 statistics?: Can you legally improve those statistics?-
21 MR.
BIRD:
No, because it's-self-22 identification and we do pursue-this with applicants.
23-They're not in any way obliged to identify if.they
~
24 choose not to, and' I -think: there. may_- be various '
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1 when we ask them to.
When we've interviewed 'c.hom, we 2
try to do our own identification.
We don't war.t to be presumptuous, but certainly we do try where we can to 3
4 4
make that said identify beyond the self-5 identification.
However, in actually using that for 6
a data profile such as this, we generally will not do 7
that.
8 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
Yes.
9 MR. BIRD:
Because, regardless of your 10 othnic background, if you choose to identify 11 otherwise, then, so be it.
We will record it that 12 way.
Certainly we may know it and, in fact, Mr.
13 Tucker's of fice and we have worked on individual cases 14 jb this egency where we believe there's-15 misidentification with individual people and there may 16 be reasons that they choose to identify as they do.
17 So, we don't take that beyond the point.that an 18 individual would tell us for the purpose of this type 19 of statistic.
20 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
It's 21 unfortunate, because it makes it hard to interpret the 22 numbers. For example, if you look at the numbers that 23 are here and you look at the pool of applicants, you 24 would say that just projecting the same profile you'd 25 expect about 39 percent of the selectees to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W-(2C2) 2344433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 QO2) 2344433
76 1
African-American, Asian or Hispanic, and only 21 2
percent are.
But, if you add in those 797 applicants 3
to the total and make the extreme assumption that 4
they're all white males, then you would only project 5
21 percent, which agrees with the actual selection.
6 So, it makes it very difficult to 7
interpret the numbers. The same thing would happen in L
8
.the case of the white males.
They're only 45 percent 9
of the applicant
- pool, but 59 percent of the 10 selectees.
That reverses itself if you make the 11 assumption I just made before.
12 MR. BIRD:
We've had the same f rustration 13 with this data and even.with data within the work 14 force. For example, we self-identify for disabilities -
15 and we recently put out a new solicitation and just 16 the immediate result of_that is an additional 50 some 17 employees who have unreported disabilities that we 18 weren't recording.
So we know the frustration, but we' 19 don't believe we're in the position to force the -issue 20 or to try to make our own interpretation-and then 21 include that in anything that we would utilize.
22 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
Okay.
23 I think sometime over the last year, I 24 forget exactly when, you accumulated u list of women's F
25 colleges and I noted in this report again active NEA> R. GROSS COUR1 REPORTERS iND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W W0l; 23444M WASHINGTON, D.C 20005 (202) 234 4433
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recruftment, the Hispanic organizations, the 2
historically Black colleges, but I didn't see any i
mention of use of that list in any of your recruiting 3
4 4
efforts.
Is it being used at all?
5 MR. BIRD:
Yes.
Thank you very much.
We 6
did use that list.
We got an update of that list and we've got several specific recruitment events related 7
8 to women.
I'm not sure that they're exclusively 9
women's colleges or from that list, but there is a particular focus there and that list has been included 10 11 in all the colleges and universities that we look at 12 in trying to select out the places we go.
We but in 13 certainly can't go to every place every year, 14 the course of things that is being factored in, very 15 much so.
Thank you.
16 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:
Okay.
17 And one last point.
This is Mr. Taylor's 18 favorite question.
Can you tell us the status of 19 looking into flexiplace?
20 MR. TAYLOR:
As you know, the OPM study 21 was completed ar.d we're now getting readv to get input 22 from office directors and regional administrators on 23 how we should implement this.
There's some potential 24 of adversely impacting our mission, so I want to take 25 it in a step by step way, but we are starting.
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1 COMMISSIONER - de pLANQUE:-
We8re :in an.-
2 information gathering stage now?
Is that --
3 MR. TAYLOR:
No.
We're going to consult 4
the office directors and regional administrators to 5
get our ideas together on how we could implennnt it-c 6
without adversely impacting ~what we do.
7 COMMISSIONER de PLANQUE:. Okay.
8 That's all I have.
Thank you.
9 MR.
TAYLOR:
Mr.
- Chairman, before : we 10 finish this afternoon, I'd appreciate - taking. the 11 opportunity to acknowledge all the people who have 12 enthusiastically served as mentors in one of the 13 Agency's career development initiatives. -This is our' 14 NRC Mentoring Program.
15 Approximately two years ago,. Blacks in 1
16 Government took the lead in introducing mentoring for 17 members of-the NRC staff.
This process of a more 18 experienced employee assisting a less experienced with.
19 the express purpose of enhancing career potential for 20 tue less expel.ienced: employee -is. gaining-acceptance 21 and meeting with some success.
22
' We adopted an Agency-wide program in March 23 of last year,1992, and I must note that we have a lot 24 of very strong contributors to this program..I'd'like 25 to specially-recognize Barbara Williams, who was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR 8ERS 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVENUE. N.W.
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79 l-1 talking to you previously, for working for paul Bird 2
and me in spearheading the program, broadening the 3
participation, working to enhance the relationships t
4 between mentors and the employees that they're 5
counseling.
6 With your permission, I'd like all mentors 7
in the audience and at the tabic to please stand.
8 Mentors?
9 On behalf of all the management of the 10 Agency, I'd like to thank you for your commitment in 11 support of the program and your time.
Your efforts 12 have significantly contributed to the growth and 13 development of the NRC staff, -our most precious 14 resource, and I appreciate the individual person to.
15 person work that goes on.
16 We are providing recognition certificates 17 prepared by the Office of Personnel and we will be 18 presenting those to our mentors later this month.
19 Again, thank you very much, and I'd like-20 to applaud the mentors.
21 CHAIRMAN SELIN:
Well, I'd like to add my.
22 recognition to your words, Mr.
- Taylor, about the
's 23 mentors.
It's one of the best programs we have and 24 it's a terrific investment.
It's.an ability to get 25 experience and guidance that cannot be duplicated by NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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80-1 any other. formal'or informal ~ program.; The~ individual
- 2 effort and ' attention - that = goes -into this, should
~
3 produce a payoff that we can't get.in any other way.
4 Just a couple of! wrap-up remark's I'd like -
5 to make.
First,.it's clear that the Commission finds 6
these briefings very useful and, iri fact, not just the 7
format but the quality of the analysis'that goes into' 8
the statistics has - improved enormously since -we-9 started these a year-and a half,-two years ago.
I 10 think that the emphasis, although there still will be 11 some statistical questions, the emphasis shouldt 12 continue to shift from what are the facts to how-are 13 programs doing, are they: going to succeed or do we-14 have to do something different.
15 From my own point of view, I find the'-
16 displays very helpful.
I find the remarks about-what 17 we're doing,-what works and what 'seems to go ' slow 18 consistent with the best root cause tradition of the--
19 Agency when we're looking-at technical' problems ~ as 20-opposed to our own management problems.
21 I think we all recognize there's a lot 22 more work t' So before we achieve these goals.
I hope 23 nobody gets discouraged along the way. -Digging into 24 these facts, trying to get them out on the_ table and-25 seeing where the problems are is essential.to success NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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81
-1 and without the help in these meetings that we've
- 2 gotten from the ' supporting groups we wouldn't_ be_
3 making the progress that we are.
4 I'd-like to make one last comment about_.
5 sexual harassment, something I said to Mr. Thomas, but 6
I just want to make it clear that this is not a 7
bilateral problem between the haranser anC the 8
harassee, that we have not, I don't think, in-the past 9
been clear enough in telling the management that we-10 expect the managers at all levels to be sensitive to 11 these problems and seek them out, to make sure that if 12 the problems are arising that just " boys will be boys" 13 is not a satisfactory answer.
14 This will be specifically-taken. into 15 account in promotion,. in special awards, and'it's 16 something that you can't just look the other way and 17 wish it had gone away.
It's an explicit'part.of our 18 management problem as well as a-question of building-4 19 up sensitivities and getting people to come= forward 20 that have complaints or might have complaints.
21 Thank you very.much.
We look forward to 22 the next presentation.
23 (Whereupon, at 3:44 p.m.,
the above-e
.24 entitled matter was concluded.)
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCAfBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIB_ER This is to certify that the attached events of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission entitled:
TITLE OF MEETING:
PERIODIC BRIEFING ON EEO PROGRAM PLACE OF MEETING:
ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND DATE OF MEETING:
FEBRUARY 8, 1993 were transcribed by me. I further certify that said transcription is accurate and complete, to the best of my ability, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing events.
0 ti cYl&
4 Reporter's name:
PETER LYNCH P
NEAL R. GROSS COURT RIPCATIRS AHO TRAH1CRl81R$
1323 EHOct IStAMD AYtHUV. H.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.
20005 (202) 232 4 600 l
_