ML20091H805

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Applicant Exhibit A-128,consisting of Transcript of Tape 58,side a
ML20091H805
Person / Time
Site: Vogtle  Southern Nuclear icon.png
Issue date: 07/18/1995
From:
AFFILIATION NOT ASSIGNED
To:
References
OLA-3-A-128, NUDOCS 9508140212
Download: ML20091H805 (51)
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Text

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      • BEGIN TAPE NO. 53, SIDE A***

USNRC 1 VOICE: [ Inaudible)" equipment operator. 2 % Jul. 27 p4 :38 3 LVOICE: Hold on. OFFICE OF SECRE7Aay 4 VOICE: Thank you. DOCKETJNG & SERVICr dbANW 5 VOICE: (Inaudible.) It's probably the best one he's got 6 VOICE: 7 handwritten. 8 VOICE: Yeah. These aren't transcript type. This 9 is what [ inaudible.) I It has to be what he had doing his LER, VOICE: 10 f I believe that's what he had. 11 think. ] 12 Mt VOICE: Yeah. This is because of the LER we're 13 getting ready to submit. 14 VOICE: Okay. 15 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 4 16 VOICE: Yeah. 4 He's (Inaudible.) Alan came in my office. b "' VOICE: 17 4 5 18 here with me. He says that you'd like to talk to Duane 19 DeLoche or Slim Whitman.

  • M VOICE:

Is Bill Shipman in with you? 20 21 6N ' VOICE: No. He's down (;m another phone ggM 'M downstairs. 23 VOICE: Okay. ~ l 9508140212 950718 l 24 VOICE: We -- PDR ADOCK 05000424 T PDft 25 L A VOICE: I have Duane here. NUCLEAR REGut.ATORY COMMISSION @ (,, y Docket No. 50-424!425-OLA-3 EXHIBIT NO. 3T-lLI e g In the rnatter of Georola Power Co et al Voatte Units 1 & 2 p, g O statt % Applicant O Intervenor O other % Identified 1$ Received O Rejected Reporter _ KHd d b fLde 7Ilf li f Witness

[ 2 1 VOIG: Was Duane one of the operators that was in I 2 the -- 8 3 VOIG: That went to the diesel. 4 1 [,[, VOIG: Duane, let me tell you what -- why -- I've 4 5 got to sign out this 12R on this event. l 6-VOIG Yes. 7 h VOIG And we're talking the first time the s diesel tripped and you went to the diesel. 96sAe VOIG: Yes. 9 hN VOIG: And I don't have it right in front of me, i 10 but it -- after the trip, operators (inaudibla) engine 11 control panel invsidigated what caused the trip. This was 12 ~ 13 after the first one. 1 14 VOIM: Okay. 15 hd VOIG According to the operator, several 4 1 16 enunciators were lit. Without fully evaluating this condition, the operator reset the anunciators, and then, 17 18 during the same shift (inaudible). Now, the reason they're 4 saying it is this way is, where they can explain it, when l 19 they talk about what we were investigating as to why we i 20 i weren't really sure what tripped it en the first time, and I i 21 had had then reword that, and I don't have the rewording, .22 23 but it said something like this: In order to restore power i from (inaudible,)"the operator reset the anunciators without i 24 i 1 25 fully evaluating the condition. What I wanted to do is say, 4 1 4 r. .... ~.

i 3 Hey, you know, it wasn't he just went down and blindly 1 l l 2 pushed the dann button.. l 2 VOICE: Yeah. He was trying to get the diesel going. hN VOICE: 4 Now, what all -- and I think all that's correct (inaudible), l 5' l but what I'm trying to do is come up with an addicaonal 6 sentence to put right in front of that, scesthing to the 4 4 7 d effect of, The operator briefly looked at several instrument i 8 readouts and no problems were noted. There are two key ) 9 l l 10 things in thatt one, it was briefly - you only looked at d two, like like I'm sure you read the panel. 11 12 PW VOICE: Yes. 6N VOICE: And did you looked at, say, jacket 13 i 14 temperature or pressure? 15 Per VOICE: I glanced at all or the parameters on the 16 panel to make sure they were okay. I also, looked at the i engine physically itself to make sure there were no parts 17 flying apart somewhere, and that's the reason it wasn't j 18 i 19 running. i dd VOICE: And you did that before you made that i 20 I 21 (inaudible) panel, right? 22 Dva+c VOICE: Yeah. I walked by the diesel, looking at f 23 it on-the way in. Even though it's dark, if there was a part laying anywhere, you would know it. 24 l But you actually looked at the gages and 6N VOICE: 25 S

4 I ~ 4 r l 4 you didn't see anything abnormal. i 1 h#^' VOICE: Right. 2 i see, I don't want to say that you did a bN . VOICE: 3 l thorough look, but, you know, I've operated myself and I 4 know that you just don't go out here and push the dang i J i 5 r 6 button without [ inaudible.] Do you think it's a true statement that you briefly observed or looked at several of 1 7 I didn't say the instrument readouts and noted no problems? f 8 that there was a problem, I just think if it says you looked 9 at several of the input readouts briefly, and you didn't i 1 10 Is that a truthful statement? 11 know the problem. i O' M VOICE: Yes, sir. 12 See, if you just didn't look right -- the bN VOICE: l ( 13 way this thing read to begin with, it looks like you just s i 14 l vent down there and closed your eyes and pushed the reset 15 i 16 buttort. b VOICE: Yeah, I read that one already. 17 1 bN VOICE: And that's not right. 18 h

  • VOICE:

No. 19 l Wel*., I just -- you know, I think N VOICE: Okay. 20 1 you all did a good job without talking -- just going down J 21 there running that thing (inaudible) -- you know, if there i 22 had been a problem, running it into the ground and tearing 23 l That's one of the strong things I'm trying to say 24 it up. about this thing, is that you all knew you had a little i 25 e

i 4 5 time, and you took the time to check the diesel out, j 1 especially after the second trip. s 2 h VOICE: Yes, sir. 3 Jim? i Gd So I feel comfortable with that. VOICE: j 4 b k VOICE: Yes, sir? ~ 5 Do you feel comfortable with what I said? 6M VOICE: l 6 d It was never intended to be M 2 VOICE: Yes, sir. l 7 It wasn't intended to have people running in 8 otherwise. with their eyes closed. i I p I know that, and I know why you put the b VOICE: l 10 is where you could explain, Well, wo 1 11 sentence in there, l It was didn't exactly resember what those anunciators were. 12 put in there really to lead into, you know, what was said ( 13 14 later. NA VOICE: That's correct. 15 But to the casual reader, he's goirg to bN VOICE: 16 read something else into it. Do you see what I mean? 17 {

  1. VOICE:

You're probably right, yas. 18 And that's why I just wanted to add a bb VOICE: 19 littis bit in there and restructure the sentence Y 19 &%d 20 Are we doing ;-*' ri ;i--"* M = -) i Okay, fellas. 21 b E VOICE: Yes, we're starting it now. 22 6N VOICE: Well, good luck. 23 l 24 I9 d-h VOICE: We're more than starting. l I And I'm thinking about going home a little ( .f*Ma VOICE: 25 9 d

6 I, i 1 early today. hff VOICE: Ha, ha, ha. Who's that talking? .2 s~de IW VOICE: That was (inaudible.] 3 1 I'd feel bad if the rest of you all go l l 4 [N VOICE: 5 home. M 'E. VOICE: I don't really like this idea of torsional I 6 i But I haven't successfully fought it, that's for 4 7 testing. 1 8 sure. j 6N VOICE: I understand that. Bey, thanks a lot. 9 And I'm sorry to interrupt you all, but I just wanted to I 10 i make sure that, you know, we had this as candid as we could. 11 4 E VOICE: Okay. Very good. 12 6b VOICE: Thank you such. 13 b E VOICE: You bet. Bye now. 14 15 VOICE: Bye. VOICE: (Inaudible.) 16 Cd VOICE: I know about high (inaudible) rates. ,I 17 is VOICE: Three percent until you get your fuel 1 l 19 conditioning out of -- Never heard of a (inaudible) withdrawal (4jh VOICE: 20 21 rate, three steps per hour. b i. VOICE:.What are you talking about? 2 i 22 23 VOICE: That's what I'm asking him. l 24 VOICE: What are you talking about? I ( 25 VOICE: (Inaudible) control rate. e i i

4 l i 7 That's the first time I'd ever heard about 1 . VOICE: i 3 2 it. L 3 VOICE: For the restart. t T From that, we'just gave Bill Meister a 'bd.)b VOICE: 4. i note that says, Hey, (inaudible]" control room, that greater l 5 We knew than 20 percent an hour, three percent an hour. 6 i 7 that. 8 VOICE: Yeah. Greater than 50 percent an hour is three I 9 VOICE: i 10 steps per hour. 11 VOICE: Until rods (inaudible.] l 12 VOICE: I've never heard this one before. 13 VOICE: (Inaudible.] j 14 VOICE: I just thought maybe you were familiar i 1 i is with it. 3 I've never heard it. i VOICE: 16 g b VOICE: State that requirement again? l 17 i Greater than 50 percent an hour, maximum bd VOICE: 18 h water withdrawal rate of three steps per hour. 19 4 i I hadn' t heard of that, either. i 20 VOICE: 1 21 VOICE: Bill would be -- i t (Inaudible) operator talked to -- all the p, [pdtr VOICE: 22 supervisors talked -- (inaudible)"sent a copy of the letter, 23 24 yes. l. l 25 VOICE: I've never heard about it. i

t s i The entire reason that we have rods VOICE: 1 2 [ inaudible). VOICE: I can't help you. 3 VOICE:.I'll"tell you'what we'll do. We'll go get 4 the rods out of the core [ inaudible). 5 l 6 [ Pause.) bs.} Well, the way - Alan Men._ [ph)"just l dbg VOICE: 7 The way walked in, George, so I'll put it on the speakar. s sy paople came up with greater than 20 starts is they took 9 the 15 and 18 starts and, based on the April 9th letter, and 10 they went and checked and found out how many starts they had 11 12 subsequent to April 9th. And that's why you can say greater ( 13 than 20. You 14 6% VOICE: I think you can greater than 20. We had a start know, we even added more starts recently. 15 last -- the other night.

  1. M i

l 16 We need to be sure that we build the de Csy VOICE: 17 j number of starts after we've completed the comprehensive is 19 control test program. I do have people right now going out Ifb VOICE: 4 l 20 4, through -- my people going out through the RO's logs -- 21 ) From my numbers that I presented at the (6 VOICE: 22 conference, they were verified correct by Jimmy Paul % Chh i 23 i who went through the operator's logs. l 24 ( VOICE: You ought to use those numbers. //g(y 25' a v s + l

9 So we'll say greater than those hh VOICE: Okay. ~ 1 numbers that were used in the conference. J 2 /ft,h VOICE: Those numbers you used in the conference l 3 lated the comprehensive test of the were after they had c J 4 i control system on each diesel. 5 6 63 VOICE: That is correct. Those numbers were not t 7 before that time. 1 Do we want to Let me make sure I'm clear. d N"'frA/46 y/2p p D/23f*2 szwseerzeetr /A m /E ##2M'M4 VoI 8 Do we want X2 /f say [ inaudible' ] the comprehensive test program? i 9 to say that kind of stuff, or do we want to just say -- 10 N VOICE: Yes, you can say that. 11 b I'/ VOICE: That's pretty clear. I d A N ' ' l'J - S 12 I don't think [Yna % 74 ] udible.] i 13 M89 VOICE: i 14 VOICE: Right. 15 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 16 VOICE: (Inaudible.] 17 VOICE: Yes, we're done on that. i t i 18 VOICE: (Inaudible.) l 19 VOICE: We're happy with that one. i The wording was [ inaudible.] 20 VOICE: There's a 21 M VOICE: We're going to add something. new sentence going in front of -- i 22 1 M / NsyVOICE: Eighteen or 197 What did you have in your 23 24 presentation, George? Seventeen and 18 or 18 and 197 t i t 25 VOICE: Eighteen and 19.

] lo 1 When we say greater than 18, we mean more VOICE: 1 2 than 18. Greater than is would be good. h VOICE: 3 Mf VOICE: Fine. 4 One of Greater than 18, more than 18. /7c[ay VOICE: j 5 4 6 Om. 7 VOICE: dW I understand th$t @sidl and A1, if .lbf*4 VOICE: Okay. f / S A1 just walked in, I understand that George just got off the i 9 phone with Jim Schwartzwalder and the operator and he is ] 10 i satisfied now with the -- what the operator did when ha 1 11 12 walked in the room. Yeah, I was down there, Bill, and I just I'7 VOICE: ( 13 j 14 ran up here. Yeah, we're done with that one. 15 M M VOICE: Apparently -- I don't know how George knows all this stuff, but apparently he -- somehow he knew j 16 more about it than you and I did. i 17 Well, he went down to the plant and 18 ' */ VOICE: 19 (inaudible.) N* VOICE: Well, no, I don't -- not really. 20 It sounds like to me the operator said he 21 JMifm8*1 VOICE: looked at something more than the anunciators. 22 He confirmed with the operator that the 23 VOICE: operator did a cursory review of instruments and the 24 I ( operator's comfortable witn, you know, some statement that's 25 G

11 f 1 kind of like that. He didn't lead the operator, did he? 'M VOICE: 2 M d I don't think so. !Not very far. VOICE: 3 I Well, you don't need to lead him at all. f% VOIG: 4 He might get an opportunity to testify at some time about 5 So you all don't let Mr. Barrison lead the operator. i 6 that. I'm sure that we (&psWWWWie) put words.in 7. VOICE: But, no, he said he read them, because he had 8 his mouth. I 9 [ inaudible.) t 10 VOICE: Okay. i l And Jim explained the reason it was put in [b VOICE: l 11 there, because it ties in later, and Jim said that's the i 12 s/017 j fr" JUAUCA' Y E f r nt to make you think that the operators neek 1 7 7A** M 77 W reason. j ( 13 4pgur apW 7)sG4f,nAdd chef 40 sWffnt$ AM JW=* lin: fiM i 14 I've Actually, the operator said that he did both.- 15 (inaudible) several [ inaudible)"the operator says he looked i 16 at all the gages, and he didn't see any problems on thea l 17 WMA'/W 'A Y 4M He Hesaid/hedidn'tseeanymechanicalproblems. 18 gages. it was dark but, you said he didn't look at it closely,4 en 5e Ne,r. 19 41,4.,%v myr&.>.k e l i-20 know, he [ inaudible.) But, you know, what we put in there is less than what he verbalized to me. 21 I know how you are, and I'm just 22 ,56:f

  • VOICE:

Okay. 23 trying to make sure we -- Jgaw y p66V7" 70 /WTAkadef,Vo 24 gg VOICE: !'--" W ]" I just want to make sure you ( know what the operators would say. 25 ) l i

i 1 12 1 VOICE: Okay. All right. ~. \\ Of course, they'd probably say, Well, 2 VOICE: wMr 7Nf twM.fuMYAntA7 ELL o.c 7z De-i 1 3 that's just (4 mend 6bte.) 4 ,fhpnM VOICE: Int's see.. What other questione do we l 7MH 5 got? We got her start thiys straightened out. \\ S' h

  • 58 bh M w did *[ bam no -{g/,.

6 VOICE: (Inaudible.]" 4 ^ l J, 7 VOICE: No, not (inaudible.) What else did we 4 l 8 have, Jack? I 9 VOICE: (Inaudible) 08:57 CS. VOICE: Oh, yeah. Okay. The only problem we got 3hre 10 that we got to wrestle with is the time of the -- when the i 11 12 notification began. We say the emergency director signed the notification form used to inform off-site government 13 agencies of the emergency at 08:38 central standard time and 14 1 notifications began at 08:57, and Mr. Barrison's question is I 15 t i 16 what happened between 8:38 and 8:57. What -- does the i I' 17 "Where it began" mean? Is that where he picked up the ENN i 18 and found out it was disabled or is that -- 4 t hh VOICE: That's the time that the South Carolina 19 communicated along the receipt of an incoming message from i 20 ) I 21 Plant Vogtle. VOICE: IAt me tell you -- why don't I ask the [N 22 question? You know, what -- you have a picture in your mind 23 i of the shift clerk trying to pick up the ENN, and it's duad. i ~ 24 (~ 25 Do you know what I mean? 4

l

-_~ - - - .. _ = -. i t 13 I VOICE: Yeah. 1 And then she, or whoever made the decision 1 b ' VOICE: 2 Now, so, the way it to start with the back up (inaudible.), 3 looks, if we can say b t you got on the horn and then l 4 [ inaudible) an attempt was made to make a notification that l 5 the ENN was known to be without power at 8:57 or whatever it ) 6 l was, South Carolina was notified or initiated at 8 57 on the i l 7 Do you know what I mean? 1 backup ENN, it just reads better. i 8-J 9 It looks like -- l [h VOICE: That's right. That's what happened. 10 l 11 Yeah, you know -- Well, you and Bill draft up some words to [N VOICE: I 12 that effect right in there, because that fills in some l ( 13 j It looks good up to you signing the form, and then i 14 blanks. I 15 there's like 15 minutes. Actually, it's John Hopkins who signed the N VOICE: i 16 8 i f 17 fors because 6N VOICE: Hopkins? But then it looks like just, i is nothing went on, and you know something went on. i 19 N VOICE: Well, she tried to get people and then she 20 couldn't.get people, so then went over to the backup ENN and 21 started a roll call, but the roll call really wasn't 22 l complete because the south Carolina people, the first time 23 l and a couple they logged it on their log was, you know, 57, l 24 f of people logged that consistently as the times -- that s 25 h I ~ c- - -,

i 14 4 that's the time that the critique team went ahead and 3 1 j decided was probably the most reliable time that the message 2 was starting to come out. 3 George, do you have a copy of -- M M VOICE: Okay. 4 John -- anybody a copy of the Imt there? i 5 I have a copy of the LER here. Md VOICE: f 6 M M VOICE: [ Inaudible.] Why don't you give it to I 7 George and let's word engineer displays to take care of the 5 s concern that Mr. Harrison had. 9 Ist's do it right now and simply say that b VOICE: 10 -- in a sentence that says the, The shift clerk went through 11 l the primary ENN, and it had lost power; had to go to the 12 backup ENN, conduct a roll call before the initial message j ( 13 4:57 was started at (inaudible}-47. Did you get that, Bill? 14 l I'm trying to write what you're N f

  • VOICE:

Yes. 15 16 reading back. t (Pause.] [ 17 UGA How do you think we're doing on this VOICE: 18 Can we do a lot of things on it? 19 critique? b VOICE: Well, we really have [ inaudible.] 20 Now, let me -- I got.everything I M VOICE: Okay. 21 The shift clerk went into the primary 22 think (inaudible.] l Shift clerk then went to ENN and found it had lost power. 23 the backup ENN and initiated notification, and I need the 24 l ( 25-last phrase to that. 4 e }

.- - -= i 15 i Initiated notification after roll call. db VOICE: 1 bfM VOICE: After roll call. 2 hE VOICE: At whatever time. You use an Eastern time l 3 in there, so it would be 9:57. 4 8@[

  • VOICE:
Okay, 5

The LER had Central time in it. VOICE: 6 i l 7 M*rf**, VOICE So we got 8:57 Central Standard Time. 1 I think -- that may not be the exact phrasing that J 8 okay. comes out, but that's the data you think we need to put in 9

Okay, there and we (inaudible) data that [ inaudible.)

10 i 11 Anything else, Jack? Anything else, becausa I need to get N*. hAI $k k 1 12 We got the thing about what the b VOICE: Okay. ( 13 operator saw in there saw when he went in there, the j 14 15 [ inaudible) otorage. We get the time. The only thing f I can't think of anything else. 16 [ inaudible.) George, I don't think we have anything [QM VOICE: ) 17 else at this red hot minute. 18 86b VOICE: Hey, Bill? 19 N/ VOICE: Yeah. 20 l Are these all the changes d64 VOICE: This is John. 21 that we're going to make, because I don't think there's 22 5 anything substantial that needs a PRB. 23 I won't make that guarantee, John. N[ VOICE: 24 So I need to keep somebody on 25 <J 6d VOICE: Okay. 1 e

1 16 I standby to de that. M D VOICE: Yes, sir. You sure do. 2 7M VOICE: Okay. I'll have whoever is going to be on 3 i standby give Jack a call in case, you know,.this drags on l i 4 till 7:00 or 8:00 at night or something like that. ) 5 M I N VOICE: But it's not going to drag on that.long. t 6 We'll be done with it in about 30 minutes N' #7 VOICE: 7 with the changes, and we'll call you back and let you know 2 - 8 ) l and you can make a judgment on whether we have to go back I 9 2 10 and go back to the PRB. 7dA VOICE: Okay. That's fine. l 11 i (S VOICE: Rey, Bill? 12 13

Jkg, VOICE:

Yes, sir. You know my afternoon plans, so I need to 14 63 VOICE: i i i 15 run. 16 N M VOICE: All right. Well, John, A1, could one of you all give us just a 30-second update on where we are with l 17 j i 18 the test? j 6 0 /'}, VOICE: I spoke to the control room, and they were 19 about to close the breaker, and so the test was proceeding. f 20 j I think that's been done at 1800 RPMs and M% VOICE: 21 They were exciting, they had gotten the negative sequence. ) l 22 d4ad% using the tesporary ext.;.;;t h. equipment and they had 23 gotten up to like -- I think it was like two-and-a-half i I 24 ( negative sequence, and everything was going fine. 25_ e j .. -. _, ~

17 1 VOICE: Have we seen any -- 2 VOICE: No, anomalies. Y VOICE: No anomalies yet. 3 4 9 VOICE: No anomalies,'and they're going to do a 4 f little more exhortation, and then they take the machine up 5 i 6 to a higher RPM. Ib 7 M/***3 VOIS: Okay. Thanks, John. 'l l 8 (Jg4 VOICE: Okay. Jack, you're going to call me? I 9 VOI S: Yeah. Okay. Bye, folks. 1 .j 10 VOICE: Bye. 11 Mif% VOICE: Goodbye, George. 12 (Pause.] 13 I VOICE: It sounds like he's (Inaudible.] ' [eph.rf"14 VOICE: (Inaudible.] Rf

  • i M7 N M VOICE:

(Inaudible), it will be lost forever. 15 16 VOICE: Why? 17 VOICE: Because he will not go to the airport and I 18 pick it up. It will sit there forever. i 19 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 20 VOICE: Why don't we just fax it up? I 21 VOICE: We'd like them to modem it and fax the 22 cover sheet. 23 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 4 24 VOICE: If I modes her (inaudible) letter, sure. ( You know, we can -- she can start working 4 25 VOICE:

is 1 on it. Whatever she has to do with it, we can fax it up to 2 her. i 3 VOICE: (Inaudible.) l i j' 4' VoIS: There's a cover letter on it. 5 VOICE: But she has to send it out. I-6 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 7 VOICE: If we [ inaudible]* tomorrow morning after She can it's signed, it will get there tomorrow afternoon. l 8 put her letter on it and get it to (inaudible.) i 9 } 10-VOICE: (Inaudible) will not get to the airport I because I can't possibly get it out earlier. 11 12 VOICE: (Inaudible) get all the information, and l 13 send it out without all the information. i 14 VOICE: Yes. What is this? cebb P' 15 6# O b 4.3, VOICE: We can't get (4neudib&e) kilowatt. 16 VOICE: They. don't know how to calculate for 17 kilowatt. 18 VOICE: They don't know how to calculate for 19 kilowatt for either one. 20 VOICE: All right, because - 21 VOICE: Well, for the month of March. 22 VOICE: And they can't start -- they haven't (inaudible) for the break in the cycle and where the time in 23 24 between cycles -- 25 VOICE: Okay. An I going to get in the v --v -v.- .r

4 i i 19 i (inaudible) over this one now, too? ) 1-4 2 VOICE: Why? 3 VOICE: I don't know. I just [ inaudible.) l '4 VOICE: (Inaudible] go to the airport. 5 VOICE: Hey. I 6 VOICE: Boy. f 7 VOICE: Can you find a way home? Thirteen minutes after.saf=-:4y's left. M*Ut VOICE: s 9 I'll try. i_ l 10 VOICE: I'll be able to leave in a half-an-hour. l 11 . VOICE: Do you got some emergency going on? ~J (A VOICE: No. I just have to sit here for a half-l 12 an-hour as punishment for crimes in a previous life, is i_ 13 14 really all I can think of. Is that a good assessment, Alan? h i 15 VOICE: Hey, he's getting off light. 3 b> VOICE: You're getting off light. 16 4 17 VOICE: (Inaudible.) is VOICE: How's that? P,NI n.:,a Have you guys figured out how come the VOICE: 19 i diesel starts when it ain't supposed to? i 20 21 JgA VOICE: wo. I'm trying to figure out how==ny 4 It's times the diesel started, but that's irrelevant, too. i 22 l just that corporate's reviewing the LER on the site area 23 '24 emergency, and I got to tell them whether we need to take it back to a PRB. -ind-I've-already determined,__regardless_of 25 2 t l

20 a what they change, it doesn't need to go back to PRB, but I l 1 and they're going can't tell them that until after the fact, 2 to call me in a half an hour. I told you it's for crimes in l 3 I would have tried to call you, but I've 4 a previous life. MY been talking to some guy named Bacal?. and -- what's that i 5 6 guy's name? Harrison? Harrison and MceeM and 4&spMa for i k NW**S 7 the last 35 minutes. I VOIS: (Inaudible.] 8 i i VOICE: Sorry. i I 9 VOICE: I'll call you back. 10 J (Noise, phone rings.] 11 (Background noise, inaudible voices.) i 12 13 (Pause.] 14 VOICE: I'm trying to get through. 15 VOICE: Hello. What are you guys doing? I'm not It sounds like I (inaudible)"try and get out of i 16 off yet. 17 here. i 18 (Pause.) 1 19 [ Noise.) -- and they should not be included because 20 Jh*/"8 " VOICE: they were part of the returning to service of the diesel 21 (inaudible)"the overhaul, and this count only included those 22 l John, you starts after we had calibrated all these sensors. 23 80CK/MWC heard George LinaudioleP s logic. 24 ( Mti' VOICE:- Yss, but what I'm is, let's say we had ten I '~ ~ 25 i

k 21 starts on the machine between the 20th and the ten we 1 declared it operable or completed our logic testing, you 2 know, and then interspersed in there on the -- maybe the 3 third, fifth and sixth starts were failures, you know, then 4 5 I think what we'ra saying is we would start counting at the ten point, if that was an example. 6 7 IfW VOICE: All right. We would $est count those starts prior to when we did that calibration. a So we want to start it after we completed M**1 VOICE: 9 10 the logic, the logic test? What I understood that George had done was 11 .N/mm VOICE: started after we completed the recalibration all the 12 i 13 instrumentation. That's when we ought to have, you know, as far as that instrumentation is concerned, that's when we 14 ought to have had direct set points and good instruments. 15 That's what we're trying to show, that the unit starts -- 16 h when that's been done correctly, that the unit starts 17 Does that.make sense? reliably, starts and runs reliably. 18 i 19 Can we get to that data? /% VOICE: We have the data. The question is, is 20 21 what's that date and time? You know, as soon as we get to the point at which we want to start counting, we can get the 22 i 23 count pretty quick. i 7fA VOICE: Well, not pretty quick, but -- 24 [h.h n VOICE: How do we get to that point? 25 4 0 4 JL

i i 22 s M9 VOICE: You know what? I think part of the thing f 1 we did is we went in and,'you know, we changed out a bunch i 2-of switches, we went in and then did logic tests, we went l' 3 V4** l into the other voltage tests, and then we finally ran the 4 i surveillance on the machine, and at that point that we s 5 completed the surveillance on the machine, we called the j' 6 'l 7 nachine operable. So the question again comme back to at j what point are we going to start counting. 8 ,4 ,,M;;f%ug VOICE: Well, George said be started counting 9 after we had completed the instrumentation recalibration, 10 i b 11 okay? so that's one point we can start counting, if we can I l 12 define that point. I can't define it. I don't know when 13 that was. Somebody generi.ced the sort of data that i generated the numbers 18 and 19 to George on that basis. l 14 I P~l od i 15 VOICE: Jim calls [ inaudible) -- let me go y 16 downstairs and (inaudible.) -- i 76b VOICE: Okay. I'm trying to get Schwartzwalder 99 l 17 l j 18 here. i 19 VOICE: Schwartzwalder? Okay. [bi w VOICE: Okay. One other thing we could do, Al, f 20 saying we still continue to have problems with trying to 21 22 define this. We could back away from this completely, and 23 change this to say how many starts we've had since we 24 declared the diesel operable. i ( 25 M VOICE: Yes, that -- e

23 N k VOICE: That would be more -- 1 b VOICE: That's easy to define. We just go into 2 tfS 20$ (inaudible)"the [ inaudible) and find out when they cleared 3 g n 4 the.1 car and we'll know that point real easy. That's an 5 easy point to find. I think the other point we'll have to Ce>h 6 find by talking to Jimmy Paul Sash. 7 ) A VOICit The problem with that is that that number is going to be significantly less, I thinir, than what George 8 told Mr. Ednetter, and, you know, it's going to create a j 9 selling job for me, I think, but eventually, that the only 10 way we can tell a valid story that, you know, we can defend 11 A41 fterk O if somebody calls 41&an Mausbidan, Bill Shipman and John 12 A6'A3tWAM(AW 13 ggph6ns again to testify. That's the story I want to tell. VOICE: Well, I think -- you know, let me try some kV 14 15 logic here. We got these two failures, and now John says 16 there are three failures. You know, we're kind of saying, l 17 Hey, those are not valid failures, you know, because we were 18 coming out of maintenance on the machine and had yet to 19 declare it operable. That's how and why we're discounting j 20 those failures. M " VOICE: So we*have yet to determina that coming f 21 out an outage on the machine, we had to go and basically do l 22 JgMurmi i That was i a complete set of recalibrations of the 111cident. 23 j the logic that George used, not that we were declaring it 24 dr \\ operablebecauseweobviouslyhadjdeclareditoperable. 25 l i )

24 ] A % VOICE: Well, one of the failures was when we were 4 1 I would j doing the, you know, an eight-hour loading run. L 2 l sure hope to hell think that we had calibrated the 3 instruments before we-did an eight-hour loaded run. 4 5 We hadn't [ VOICE: Well, not according to George. 5 Is recognized the need to go back and redo all of them. 6 A.dN* that not what he said to John esenkusy>9i 1 I 7 M VOICE: That's what I is.?erstood. 8 l I'm just thinking from the standpoint of VOICE: 9 testing logic, you know, you're going to do an eight-hour i i 10 1 loaded run on the machine, you know, obviously the component l 11 testing ought to be done at that point. j' 12 /A on obviously we thought 13 VOICE: You know, well, heyp we had done everything we needed when we returned it to 14 i 15 service. I d 6b VOICE: It was operable. 16 17 dea'? VOICE: Yeah. It was declared operable. gWefoundoutthatwehadn't,andGeorgeis Af VI 18 saying,-yciu'4 mow, Hey, gang, from the time we realized that 19 1A or 15, we had to do a complete recalibration and make 20 sure we had our facts together on all the instruments, we 21 bd m y j then ; ve i_ i starth I'm trying to defend George and -- 22 1 23 TGA VOICE: Well, you know, the bottom line is on the We were in 5 diesel, we had done major maintenance on it. 4 24 J i the process of testing to make sure it was working right. 25

1 4 25 i During that testing process, we had it fail apparently three s i 1 i i 2 times. i once we got all the bugs worked out of it -- 3 that's the point we got all the bugs worked out of it that .l 4 t i we had -- we had -- and I'm kind of guessing, but 27 starts, 5 because I don't know where the three failures are in the 6 t And sequence of 27 starts, but we had X number of starts. i 7 George's argument is, after we got all the bugs worked out, 8 i I 9 we had is starts. What he's trying to do is he's trying to M/W VoIG: 5 10 i show by way of this, once you get the bugs worked out, like 11 12 you say, John, the diesel works. 7 I$ VOICE: Fine. That's right. And that's I 13 regardless of the point of declaration of operability or 5, 14 l 15 not. M M VOICE: Fine. 16 You know, I think what we discussed on how l 17 did VOICE: I to handle those, the number of actual diesel starts, how we 18 discussed that before, I think we ought to just leave it at 19 l 20 that. 21 M/a*% VOICE: You say at least 18 times each, huh? IN VOICE: Yeah. 22 \\ 23 Ib)p VOICE: Okay. 24 JGA VOICE: I mean, that -- somebody has gone and The validated that data, and that's what George presented. l 25 5

26 data that's been offered to us does not bring into question 1 2 that data. 3 VOI G: Okay. 4 78b VOIG It tends to support that data. Would you 5 take exception to that - b/M** VOICE: We're going to go with that. Jack 6 [ inaudible) this grin from ear to ear. I 7 j 8 M VOIG The only issue is, we can't let people be L I misled, think that there were not failures until we sta.rted 9 i 10 doing that count. 11 M if-9 VOICE: And we say that -- we say after the 3-29 0 coAtfAt%. event, that the $1se system with both engines have been 12 i Subsequent to 13 subjected to the comprehensive test program. 1 this test program, diesel generator 1A and 1B have been 14 started at least 18 times each, and that no failures or 15 1 problems have occurred during any of these starts. 16 D VOICE: When you read it that way to me, Bill, 17 18 when you talk about the comprehensive test program, you is 19 know, I kind of set the philosophy for that down here, that we would have a test program to, you know,' determine 20 root cause and restore operability, and, you know, that kind 21 of sounds like what I talked about down here on our diesel 1 22 f test program, and it sour.ds like that is kind of 23 I establishing the starting point, you know, at least at the i 24 I point in time after which we did the UV testing. 25 j r 9 1 _ _ _ _

i 27 I 1 N " VOICE: Let me add one more additional fact in here that I think will help us as we struggle with this to } 2 1' make sure we're not trying to mislead somebody, at least the j 3 people we most want not to mislead, and that's the Region II 4 N i, 5 folks and W yle. s l~ 6 Since we a discussing this. issue, some half i W i hour ago or hour ago, whenever it was, since we had an issue i 7 M Va+ kr, B a.~.n with this (inaudible),pwent and called Kong Rophaan -- s 1 ) 9 VOICES. Yeah. 10 VOICE: -- and talked to him about, you know, the numbers and what the basis of the number was as George 11 SrM/ Airocko described it, and asked Ken if he understood that, i i 12 1 you know, and.if they had understood that in Atlanta on that 13 1 basis, and Ken said, Yes, absolutely we did, and also the l 14 15 ITT team understands that, f d6A VOICE: There's no question, I think, that the ITT 16 l 17 team understands that. I M*.fewm VOICE: Which is the basis, as well. So from that 18 mense, you know, the people we're trying to tell understand 19 the basis fort the number George presented, and we really i 20 i 21 aren't changing George's number. 22 JfA VOICE: Jim Schwartswolder just walked in, too. 23 He's going to help shed light on various things. 24 VOICE: [ Inaudible.) i 25' J fd VOICE: Because I'm not sure I can answer -- e t I

~. _ _ i 1 28 l Other things he doesn't want to shed any 1 VOICE: i 2 light on. AI M VOICE: Things he doesn't want to be quoted on, 1 i 3 4 = l 4 right? Other things that I'm in the dark -- 5 VOICE: M 6 VOICE: That's correct. l i 7 VOICE: That I'm in the dark on. ) s VOICE: (Inaudible.] 9 VOICE: And I would never hear. ) 10 VOICE: Well, I don't know if -- I want to go over Pat Mcdonald's comments dIA VOICE: 11 12 with him. 13 VOICE: Okay. 1 VOICE: Well -- 14 i You want to run back through them? i 15 VOICE: i. U6k VOICE: Yeah. Ist's just start at the beginning 16 and -- because you can go ahead and read him how you rewrote l 17 I 18 what the operator said. 19 Jh.'prm% VOICE: Okay. Well, let me start at the beg nning GhA'* with Pat's comments, and the first one on the (inaudible), i 20 21 Jim, is pretty straiyhtforward. That picked up the fact l Colbk $ 14e (0#9 1 that we (inaudible]j nstead of the RCS. We got that i l 22 corrected, and (inaudible) agreed that during the time we l l 23 r 24 got the RCS. i .l' l 25 VOICE: Yes. That comment we've discussed in h I i

.~_ i i 29 1 4 l 1

there, i

i i 2 VOICE: Well, we discussed with respect to.the i 3 analysis (inaudible)"there. I 4 VOICE: Yes? 5 VOICE: Okay. That's good. VOICE: Yeah, that's great. Tell him we'll.give l 6 4, 7 him an 'at-a-boy for that. Tell Pat we'll give him an 'at-1 e a-boy for that one. N 8 M VOICE: That's what George wanted him to do. p 10 That's what we keep him around here for. The second place, Jim, that Pat had a consent was i 11 i fourth from the last paragraph, and 2 12 on description of event, 2, I think this is one that we didn't settle on a while ago, } 13 l 14 John, that we have to do something with. i The statement reads like this, and it's really in 15 j i The the last paragraph before these initial two, I think: i 16 i only alarms noted by the control room operator assigned to i 17 18 diesel generator operation were lube oil pressure sensor f 19 malfunctioning, fuel oil level high/ low alara. i Pat's concern is we open an issue there, and 20 l nowhere in the LER do we ever close it by saying these were 21 b invalid alarms, they were sensor failures, they were normal 22 l 23 for the condition, you know. 24 b 3 VOICE: Where is that problem? Bill, what 25 paragraph are you in? l 1

b 30 VOICE: I'm in'the fourth from the last, the N 1 bottom of the fourth from the last paragraph under 2 There is also a question at the i l 3 description of events. bottom of the third paragraph from the last one, the third l 4 5' paragraph from the last. )"#* VOICE: Wait a minute. I think I see where you 6 f a 1 7 are now. 5016 on. 1 a trause.) s M D VOICE: Okay. And the concern is we never closed 9 i 1 10 that up anywhere? Is that what the -- t 11 J he*fM VOICE: Right. We cp med up something the guy saw, and we never say whether it was valid, invalid, 12 1 2 13 important, not important, you know. It's just left hanging. + I"*" VOICE: That's right. 14 No corrective actions dealing with it. .Shi/% VOICE: 15 M ' W VOICE: [ Inaudible) the control system to both / 16 diesels have been subjected to a comprehensive test program, 17 18 period. Subjected to this test program, Diesel Generator 1A and Diesel Generator 1B have been started at least 18 times 19 each, and no failures or problems have occurred in any of 20 21 these starts, period. John can walk you through all of the 22 discussion. I just don't think I want to go through it all 23 again. 24 768 VOICE: Well, why not, Bill? I've been around that tree so many times 25 MP

  • 7 VOICE:

P R 4 e e -= v-m-

31 i 1 today. JM VOICE: All right. It's getting soggy around 2 1 3 there. M[ VOICE: It sure is. 4 JA VOICE: Okay. i 5 4 VOICE: Okay, fellows. I appreciate you all's fhfe 6 help."3 Hang with us on this. I think I said earlier that I Ano $d N NT 7 .rsh ^ the thing has a political impact that [ inaudible]" wanted to S fine-tune it for technical as well as political l, 9 i 10 implications. .6 E VOICE: Yes. It reads somewhat like we might be 11 12 sending a direct copy to the Government. 13 .5k M VOICE: [ Inaudible), and probably to the Secretary 1 14 of Energy and -- .f M E VOICE: I understand. 15 E i i 16 VOICE: Other people. 17 JfA VOICE: Yeah. I got to call some guy named Bush i 18 that lives in the White House. He wanted me to fax him a j i i 19 copy. MiP " VOICE: I never told you all this, but the day of 20 21 the incident, and five different times since then, I've i gotten a call from a fellow named Dick Olde, who works for a 22 guy who works for the secretary of Energy Watson. 23 24 VOICE: Is that right? i A % VOICE: Yes, and he was just enraged by the d l-25 4

-. -. _ _ ~ t l 32 l 5 pp W8 fW 1 (inaudible.) I mean, we just never admitted that they were l 2 reporting it the way they were. Bill, unless you tell me different, I'm 3 voIG: i going to let my PRB people go home. hed 40 4 4 ] fvNoe r " the l 5 M M VOICE: O.g I l make, unless you feel like we need l 6 changes we were going jt r e d d H f. 7 to review my (inaudible.) f i 8 VOIG No. No. jo)ggqFf We will get this sleeped up and signed out j j 9 fSp, VOIG: 10 M VOIG Okay. Thanks a lot. 11 12 VOICE: Thank you. Why don't you just hang on, d d 13 and I'll let you talk to Kan. M at 3 VOICE: I'll walk downstaire and call him. 14 l 15 VOICE:

Okay, l

16 VOICE: All right. Bye-bye. 17 VOICE: (Inaudible.) it VOICE: I haven't the faintest idea. 19 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 20 (Simultaneous conversation.) j 21 VOICE: Jim, Jim, Jim. i 22 VOICE: (Inaudible)"the diesel -- 23 VOICE: No. Do you want to tell me about the fact 24 that (inaudible) danger -- 25 VOICE: No, I'm not talking about smoking at all. 4 - i

33 dM VOICE: Jimsy Paul supposedly counted these starts 1 for George, and then he provided the information that George i 2 3 took to the presentation in Atlanta. Do you know how 4 s counted them or where be started? j 4 b VOICE: No, but he's still here. 5. 1 l s VOICE: (Inaudible.) d

  • VOICE:

I'll try to get him. 7 1 k.15s bre n i g VOICE: s71-- __ _gv. a I'm leaving now. 9 5 10 VOIG [ Inaudible.] 1 ,i 11 / % VOICE: I can't find = 27-starts so far. _Na W 12 d 8A VOICE: _ 187 _v. 1v. m e. AWEWSAl C40S5. *

  • W GOl~ Y??'/S, t

i 13 A /f VOICE: No. 14 Irnif,.5-9 +h==- l 15 VOICE: I'm not sure when he started. e M VOICE: They started March 20th. 16 I-17 /"1 VOICE: Oh, sure, sure, if you start March 20th. 18 Their words say it completed a comprehensive test program. Gen y^ said the comprehensive test 76b VOICE: 19 20 program ended after the third trip. e I 21 /r 9 VOICE: Well, it's bullshit. The under-voltage testing and all that is all part of the comprehensive -- I 22 certainly the under-voltaga testing is part of the 23 l 24 comprehensive test program, right? l 2 1 j 25 VOICE: On Unit J7 On Unit B? I \\ I

i 30 i MM 1 ,ggr;-"gpongH on the 5 unit, the und:r-v31t 93 testing is certainly part of the comprehensive test program. 2 3 d6b VOIn: I don't know. /% Vota: Well, hell, it'was part of the test i I 4 program that we put in writing in the little schedule we 5 6 gave to the IIT. i 48A VOIm I personally don't think it matters 7 ~ 4 whether we put in 18 or 40. 5 M VOIn: I thir.k it W:---11y matters a bell of a i i 9 ) lot because you can't put false information in written 10 J 11 oo..-_.-- ' - - to the NBc. Well, in the ~ well, I agree with that 12 7gh V01cs: The reason I don't think it matters is because, f f 13 one. f regardless of how we put it in there, when they come and ask i 14 us questions about it, we'll tell them this,Jear"1s what our 15 16 basis for it was. This is why we got 18. If they interpret 5 WM )W H. s ye** 17 it differently, we're sorry. Sand a Seg-ey. You r_r, I'r-he$ ayer wdk me e, 4 ^ ' = - ne I h VOICE: I*a having trouble counting starts. 19 \\. can't find very many starts. Wessd ad NCM7 20 3*p 3 6b VOIn: knd theyAce not talking about (inaudible), 21 7> panenteL 22 thay.ian just talking 7-- '-'- $ The practical side of it is i 22 that that what will happen. 24 /M voIn: I can't find enough starts. 1*a really t. AtAytf TNCY Aef A'e7"A i having trouble finding starts, and * - -'- r' "-- ! en't 25 .i b ny hh + } b5$ EA k cs .,, we(w ogy l l k i N

J 35 1 kJeseMnre logged here because -- VOICE: They are all logged there. 2 1'ArQ 5<%.s y [ M VOICE: They are all logged? (Inaudible.) ], ' i 3 l 4. [dfb VOICE: (Inaudible.)" I went through the log book 4 5 page by page. I 6 / VOICE: W.aen did you start? Where did you start f I'S 7' at? 6@ h VOICE: When did I start what? s i. 9 d*4 VOICE: You've got the information --4'dW 7 h U &O row $&seGd 46%'1~ ) [A VOICE: [T r*'1:L ;:t the failuresy A gave him 10 .&hh failures as well as valid starts. I gave his every one that i 11 ve -- every start that we have done. 1 12 l 7 b VOICE: (Inaudible) one, it started, it failed. l 13 //df/> 14 Two, it started and W -r"':...). Three, it started and f A4D'O 15 failed. Four, started and W Is that how you gave it i, i 16 to him, or did you just give him totals. bMb VOICE:

Totals, 17 f

18 I6b VOICE: Are there 20 starts, three failures? ~ t I'm not sure if I told him the failures or 4 19 (gjl1 VOICE: reto sHtA*MN VG8 George was aware of the failures before he I'- r'iL N) 20 not. " i i 21 on the phone. i I M VOICE: The information George presented when ha 22 was in Atlanta, okay, you got some information together for 23 I i 24 him. b).h VOICE: Right. 25 t

~ 36 i When did you start counting,and what did j 1 VOICE: 2 you count? [#,7b VOICE: 3-20. 3 t b VOICE: You started on 3-20? 4 5 5)b VOICE: Right. For the 1A diesel, in the total numbers included, the three maintenance starts that we did 6 the yhd oh 3-24, I a-20. 7 un=== 4

  • VOICE:

Okay. s 9 VOICE: (Inaudible) I can't count. b VOICE: Okay. And for the I machine -- f ser #.aseaze w ! 10 hg// VOICE: Everything -- well, it was (ia==> dim C ] 4 11 Wa=f-6N& every start from the very i i /% VOICE: _ r ;;:t _ _ 12 7 13 beginning. Okay. 4 14 VOICE: (Inaudible), you know. 15 VOICE: And so as of that date and for that is presentation, then, those were the -- 17 VOICE: (Inaudible) data now. /"*1 VOICE: Yeah. Those were the 18 and 19 as of the 18 19 date that George presented it. [# N VOICE: Right. 20 21 /9 VOICE: Okay. Some of those starts resulted in a l l 22 failure. M b VOICE: Afar didn't count the failure, though. 23 24 M A VOICE: The bottom line, Alk is what we wrote in 't this LER just now, the comprehensive test program is not 25 ) t

37 defined, but basically you have to assume that George told I 1 Now, if l l Shipman that it started after the third failure. 2 3 you disagree with that -- t d VOICE: (Inaudible). .The third failure. 1 4 4 1 VOICE: The third failure. 5 ( I'm not_ agreeing or disagreeing with i 4 6 M VOICE: I'm just trying to find out what's been done. 7 anyone. J S b VOICE: Well, that's where the numbers come from. t s That's where the numbers come from. l 9 fr fgrtMPS t/AliGh - A N N VOICE: .1 f r'* th6nh Jimmy counted everything 10 4 l 11 starting the 20th. Nem d44 VOICE: That's what.eten did. j I J 12 13 /M VOICE: Okay. i 5 14 hjh VOICE: You guys come up with different numbers or I 15 something? Otem counted up to present, and you dM VOICE: No. 16 i 17 counted up to the -- 1 3 1s d4A VOICE: I think they are different because you counted up to present at the time you did it. 19 Up to the 9th, or so, at the time you did I VOICE: 20 1 21 it. But you -- Ibh VOICE: What did Rick come up with? 22 76h VOICE: Twenty-seven and 3s, or something like 23 as?2 ft.46?AG AGAMWN4 771W MU $W 24 that. I (,qfg VOICE: (Inaudible.] g g, 25 m

8 ~ 38 VOICE: Oh, yeah. 1 4 VOICE: Okay. 2 We're going to run them into the dirt is [#/D VOICE: 3 what we're going to do. 4 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 5 Where do you want to go with this? dA VOICE: 6 We have M*"h VOICE: There's no place to go with it. 7 J already -- Harrison has already submitted a letter stating 8 the same thing the LER states. Right? 9 VOICE: Yeah. 10 M*"' VOICE: All we did is state the same thing in this I 11 LER that Harrison already stated in the letter. i 12 i And George has an argument on why that's 13 VOICE: 14 correct. / **1 VOICE: And that's the same thing that George 15 16 presented at the meeting. ) 1-M VOICE: George has an argument on why that is i 17 correct, and Tim McCroy called and said, you know, Call 18 Brockwood, and Brockwood understood what that meant, 19 j 20 [ Pause.) De YCU Alf66 pfytt/N4 $N N I d 4 A VOICE: (Inaudible.] pg f #46, 21 N Yad tvAoUT 7b fJy A ftlAXN W 22 At/ VOICE: No, I -- ffAMC 77G4!57f,I t 23 .?CICE: --{Iesd4 M a 4 24 VOICE: I don't know how many I bought. 25 [ Laugher.) v

39 1 VOICE: One? That's probably enough, isn't it? 2 Enough to win, right? Is that enough to win? 3 VOICE: I imagine that's really enough to win. 4 VOICE: Okay. 5 VOICE: (Inaudible)"right now? 6 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 7 VOIM Oh, okay. b a*

  • VOICE:

Yeah. It is saturday night and I'll even 8 9 reconfirm that, if they want as to. 10 VOICE: No, that's okay. 11 VOICE: All right. 12 VOICE: Okay. Bye. 13 VOICE: Bye-bye. ) 14 VOICE: (Inaudible.) 15 VOICE: No. He just was wondering when 16 (inaudible.) 17 VOICE: [ Inaudible.) VOICE: How's the turbine test (inaudible)? Have 18 19 any idea? f ~erT E VOICE: Yes, they were -- when I came (inaudible), 20 I was down in (inaudible)"and John's office. They were on 21 i 22 their way to 100 RPM from 1800. They did the 1800 test, and they excited, I9 VOICE: 23 h,3dwe sv) & and they did a couple percent of (inaudible), and had all of 24 tide is &cl I k$ 25 the [ inaudible.) l v

d ( 40 IVOICE: That's what I heard. Yeah. I think the 1 l bulk of the testing actually -- the testing -- I think they 2 The bulk of the were just doing minor testing at 1800. 3 testing is the ramp up with a max negative. l 4 l They had gone to like one -- two-AM VOICE: Yeah. 5 l and-a-half negative sequence parameters, something like 6 4 7 that, at 1800. VOICE: [ Inaudible.] a Well, when I talked to them last, M 9 VOICE: Yeah. l 9 and then I guess they they had done two-and-a-half percent, l 10 were ramping that up to like five percent, and then what do j 11 Then we come back to 100 and do five percent all the i 12 we do? way up, or something like that? 13 I'm not sure five percent is M* VOICE: 14 i 15 VOICE: Or whatever the max is. As specified by maximum, you know, 16 VOICE: 17 expectation. VOICE: Okay. 18 And then you.come up to like 1925. VOICE: i 19 20 VOICE: Then they go to 1950 or 1925 or something, 21 VOICE: 22 right? l .I E VOICE: And then they start the 1900 to 1700 to 23 1900 to 1700 to 1900, and then they give up. (Inaudible) i 24 look at with that [ inaudible.) 25 4

1 41 VOICE: Yeah. Okay. l And then we go (inaudible.)e VOICE: 2 t VOICE: Good. Anything else? 3 4 VOICE: (Inaudible.]* f 4 Norton didn't think it ' b VOICE: I don't know. 5 6 would. Norton thought they would -- I don't think they will, either. 7 VOICE: M 9 VOICE: Norton +h-=ht they'd get done quicker i 8 If they're into it, and now it looks like they're 9 that why. into it, and, you know, most of the problems we had were i 10 4 just problems with running the turbine, 11 i No, these weren't really test problems; these were 12 problems that we would experience tomorrow when we tried to ( 13 do the turbine if we hadn't done the test. 14 VOICE: Yeah. I think those (inaudible) minor b 15 incident is that first (inaudible.) 16 neutral The h over-current was what was, I 17 VOICE: think, a test condition issue, and the (inaudible) figured 18 19-that out in a heartbeat. (Inaudible)" vast majority (inaudible.) 20 VOICE: I would say the problems and the 21 VOICE: Oh, yas. valve problems, and those types of things. 22 23 VOICE: The other one, I think, is one of the 24 load. I could not see any progress on those. (Inaudible.) 25 We are working on (inaudible.)

i 4 42 1 1 VOICE: Those are the same. Same status. Have we 2 done anything (inaudible.) 4 ( 3 VOICE: [ Inaudible.) i 4 VOICE: I'm just going to have them leave 5 (inaudible.) i i j 6 VOICE: That's about all I have. (Inaudible)"and i 1, I 7 Eirmingham. 8 VOICE: A city called [ inaudible.] 9 VOICE: Yes. That's [ inaudible) Shipman, but 10 that's (inaudible.) The start. We don't know anymore about i i i 11 the start? 12 VOICE: Diesel start? ( 13 VOICE: Yeah. 14 VOICE: Well -- 3 15 VOICE: Oh, I have that. I already have that. s. I 16 VOICE: You're not a copy? i. 17 VOICE: What? 18 VOICE: You're not a copy? s 19 VOICE: That's right. Nobody is copied. 4 1 20 VOICE: I know. I 21 / / n, VOICE: That's why we make thousands of them. 22 (Laughter.) 23 VOICE: [ Inaudible.) Jd"& VOICE: All we really have confirmed is that a 24 test circuit problem will not impact performance, which is 25 -~,

I i i r 43 i i . the only' thing I asked him to do (inaudible.) 1-I '2 -[ Pause..) i 3 VOICE: Great. l [ Inaudible) the only thing that deals with .l 1 4 VOICE: 5 it.- 6 VOICE: (Inaudible.] 7 VOICE: Do you (inaudible.) S VOICE: [ Inaudible) negative things such as l l grounding, and what they're attempting to (inaudible). l 9 They're testing to determine any degree of resonance that we 10 might have in the turbine due to our machine's } 11 configuration, and so they are exciting the system with this l 12 i negative sequence baloney, and then they're going to 13 diiinnng the system with the outer failure synchronization, 14 i 15 okay? Basically what they're doing is you got the big 16 machine up there, and they're worried about these last stage 17 18 in ducket stress problems, okay? What they're doing is they're essentially shaking the machine electrically by 19 That's a steady-state 20 negative phase sequence occurrence. And then the out-of-phase synchronization is a 21 test, okay? dynamic' ringing type test where, you know -- you think of 22 something mechanical and'you're wondering if it's got some 23 1 24 resonant. vibration. Well, you can put a shaker on it and shake it at different frequencies, you know, and different 25 1

t 44 ) magnitudes and see if you have a response, or you can whack l 1 it with a hemmer and see what kind of ringing frequencies, 2 you know, you get out of it. 3 1 That's basically what they're doing. And then 1 4 they're checking a series of frequency range by varying the 5 So RPM of the machine, you know, over certain ranges. i 6 basically this is a vibrational test using electrically-7 s induced stimuli. Okay? They're testing the amplified range by inducing the vibration electrically, and that's all 9 10 they're doing. Then they determine what the resonant ranges are, and decide if we have resonant ranges and if we do, i 11 then (inaudible) various recommendations for (inaudible.)" l 12 Now, I would assume, my guess is if the VOICE: 13 resonant range defined is sufficiently away from normal 14 operating (inaudible), nothing will have to be done. 15 If it's more than two, plus or minus two I 16 VOICE: 1 i 17 hertz from 60, then there's nothing, okay? If it's like greater than one, plus or minus one, but less than two 18 9 hertz, then there's monitoring, and if it's less than one, 19 i That's then there's physical changas, though, within it. 20 21 kind of the guideline. i SIDE A -- SIDE B NOT RECORDED * ** 22

      • END TAPE No. 58, i

23 24 1 25 l /

34 f MM <wm. ans.:. On the B unit, the under-voltage j 1 testing is certainly part of the comprehensive test program. 2 76b VOICE: I don't know. 3 I % VOICE: 'Well, hell, it was part of the test l 4 program that we put in writing in the little schedule we 1 l 5 l 6 gave.to the IIT. ) I personally don't think it matters 78h VOICE: 7 whether we put in 18 or 40. f 8 M VOICE: I think it personally matters a hell of a l 9 i lot because you can't put falso information in written 10 1 correspondence to the NRC. 11 i Well, in the -- well, I agree with that i j l 12 7/fh VOICE: The reason I don't think it matters is because, i 1 13 one. regardless of how we put it in there, when they come and ask I-14 i us questione about it, we'll tell them this,,b W is what our l 15 i basis for it was. This is why we got 18. If they interpret f W4 /V cd ., yav ~ 16 i Sand a Rog-ep. You h.:r, I'r-l itdifferently,we'resorry.h 17 doe k e y er wdk me o., 4 j mot-E= uiny = hnt -- 18 I 19 / q VOICE: I'm having trouble counting starts. can't find very many starts. IJM A4 Aldb'T 4 20 r yp 3 6b VOICE: And theytee not talking about (inaudible), i 21 l FA/9GMAL thev' A just talking %=^=ia=+t The practical side of it is 1 22 23 that that what will happen. I'm really I 24 /M VOICE: I can't find enough starts. i Mtydf 7FMY W MY"A i having trouble finding starts, and = -Mr r* t"- I don't 25 4 4 4

J i I 4 1 TAPE 58. PAGE B. LTwr 7 TmroUGH PAGE 12. LTNR R t ] 3 -Aufdenkampe: Well, the way -- Alan Mosbaugh just walked in, George, 3 so I'll put you on the speaker. The way my people came 4 up with greater than 20 starts is they took the 19 and 5 18 starts and, based on the April 9th letter, and they 6 went and checked and found out how many starts they had j 7 subsequent to April 9th. And that's why you can say j 8 greater than 20. 9 Bockhold: I think you can say greater than 20. You know, we even 2 j 10 added more starts recently. We had a start last -- the 11 other night. j' 12 McCoy: We need to be sure that we know the number of starts 13 after we've completed the comprehensive control test j 14 program. ) 15 Aufdenkampe: I do have people right now going out through -- my 16 people going out through the RO's logs -- 17 Bockhold: Frcst my numbers that I presented at the conference, they 18 were verified correct by Jisumy Paul Cash who went l 19 through the operator's logs. 20 McCoy: You ought to use those numbers. 21 Bockhold: Okay. So we'll say greater than those numbers that were 22 used in the conference. i 23 McCoy: Those numbers you used in the conference were after they 24 had completed the comprehensive test of the control i 25 systeam on each diesel. 26 Bockhold: That is correct. Those numbers were not before that 27 time. 28 Stringfellow: Let me make sure I'm clear. Do we want to say, "Since 29 3/20/90, DG1A and DG1B have been subjected to a 30 comprehensive test program? Do we want to say that kind 31 of stuff, or do we want to just say -- 4 32 Bockhold: Yes, you can say that. 33 McCoy: That's pretty clear. ] 34 Mosbaught I don't think they better look at those logs. 35 Voice: Right. l 36 Voice: (inaudible) 37 voice: (inaudible) Ng I 4 P/M#f 0F 67 AGRS i f e j ,-a,

i 1 Mosbaugh: Yeah he's done, we're done with Hairston on that. 2 Voice: (inaudible) 3 Mosbaugh: Hairston's happy with that one. 4~ Voice: The wording was (inaudible). 5 Mosbaught He's going to add something. There's a new sentence i 6 going in front of -- I 7 Shipman: Eighteen and 197 What did you have in your a presentation, George? Seventeen and 18 or la and 197 9 Bockhold: Eighteen and 19. j 10 Shipman: Could we say greater than 18, we (inaudible) more than 11 18 times. 12 Bockhold: Greater than 18 would be good. 1 13 Shipman: Fine. 1 14 McCoys It wouldn*t be more than 18 on one of them. It would be 15 18. i 16 Voice: (Inaudible) 17 Shipman: Okay. I understand, John and A1, if A1 just walked in, i 18 I understand that George just got off the phone with Jim 19 Schwartzwelder and the operator and he is satisfied now 20 with the -- what the operator did when he walked in the 21 room. i. 22 Mosbaugh: Yeah, I was down there, Bill, and I just ran up here. 23 Yeah, we're done with that one. 24 Shipman: Apparently -- I don't know how George knows all this 25 stutf, but apparently he -- somehow he knew more about 26 it than you and I did. J 4 87 Voice: Well, he went down to the plant and talked (inaudible). ) 28 Mosbaugh Well, no, I don't -- not really. 1 39 Shipman: It sounds like to me the operator said he looked at 30 something other than the anunciators. 31 Mosbaugh: He confirmed with the operator that the operator did a j 32 cursory review of instruments. And the operator's 33 comfortable with, you know, some statement that's kind 34 of like that. i 35 Shipman: He didn't lead the operator, did he? 4 m a n' 3 4 P/.3Rfd_OF 57 PAGE(h i 4 l O

l j 1. Mosbaugh: I don't think so. 2 Aufdenkampe: Not very far. j i 3 Shipman: Well, he don't need to lead him at all. The guy might j i 4 get an opportunity to testify at some time about that. 5 So you all don't let Mr. Hairston lead the operator. ) 6 Hairston: I'm sure that we put words in his mouth. 7 But, no, he said he read them, because he had j 8 (inaudible). 9 Shipman Okay. 10 Hairston: And Jim amplained to him the reason it was put in there, 11 because it ties in later, and Jim said that's the 12 reason. It wasn't to make you think that the operators i 13 just went down there and closed his eyes and hit the 1 14 button, but the operator said he (inaudible).

Actually, l

SS-the operator said that he did more. I've (inaudible) 16 several (inaudible) the operator says he looked at all d 1 17 the gages, and he didn't see any problems on them gages. 18 He said walking by and he didn't see any mechanical 1 19 problems. He said he didn't look at it closely, it was 20 dark, but, you know, he didn't see any rods sitting out 21 on the floor. But, you know, what we put in there is 22 less than what he verbalized to me. j 23 Shipman: Okay. I know how you are, and I'm just trying to make 1 24 sure we -- 25 Hairston: I wouldn't lead nobody, I just want to make sure you { 36 know what the operators would say. 37 Shipman: Okay. All right. i 28 Hairston Of course, they'd probably say, well, that's just what 39 the shift supervisor *d tell us to do. t 30 Shipman: Let's see. What other questions do we got? We got them 31 start things straightened out. l 32 Stringfellow: The other question we had Bill, was the -- s 33 Hairston: We got the starts, so we didn't have no...we didn't have j 34 no trips. 35 Shipman: No, not, not... 36 McCoy: I'll testify to that. 37 Shipman: Just disavow. What else did we have, Jack? SHST 55 Pt.05 #7 0F 57 PAGE(S) 3 s 4

i \\ 1 TAPE 58. PEE 2 0. LTur 11 TRanucH Pact 26. LTur 10 i j 2 Shipman: -- and that they should not be included because they 3 were part of the return to service of the diesel coming e out of the overhaul, and this count only included those t 5 starts after we had calibrated all these sensors.

John, l

] 6 you heard George Rockhold's logic. 7 Mosbaugh: Yes, so, but what I'm isi let's say we had ten starts on j 8 the machine between the 20th and the time we declared it 9 operable or completed our logic testing, you know, and l 10 then interspersed in there on the -- maybe the third, 11 fifth and sixth starts were failures, you know, then I j 12 think what we're saying is we would start counting at 13 the ten point, if that was an example. i 14' Shipman: Right. We would discount those starts prior to when we l 15 did that calibration. J l 16 Mosbaught So we want to start it after we completed the logic, the 17 logic test? 1 18 Shipman: What I understood that George had done was started after j 19 we completed the recalibration of all the 20 instrumentation. That's when we ought to have, you 21 know, as far as that instrumentation is concerned, 22-that's when we ought to have had valid set points and l l 23 good instruments. That's what we're trying to show, 24 that the unit starts -- when that's been done correctly, i 25 that the unit starts reliably, starts and runs reliably. 26 Does that make sense, and can we get to that data? l 27 Mosbaugh: We have the data. The question is, is what's that date { 28 and time? You know, as soon as we get to the point at 29 which we want to start counting, we can get the count j 30 pretty quick. 31 Aufdenkampe Well, not pretty quick, but -- i 32 shipman: How do we get to that point, Al? 1 33 Mosbaugh: You know what? I think part of the thing we did is we 34 went in and, you know, we changed out a bunch of 35 switches, we went in and then did logic tests, we went 36 into the undervoltage tests, and then we finally ran the j 37 surveillance on the machine, and at that point that we 38 completed the surveillance on the machine, we called the 39 machine operable. You know,...so the question again j 40 comes back to at what point are we going to start j 41 counting. EXHET.2d. P/S3_fdOF 87 PAGSS 4 i

i i i j 1 Shipman: Well, George said he started counting after we had 2 completed the instrumentation recalibration, okay? So 6 3 that's one point we can start counting, if we can define l 4 that point. I can't define it. I don't know when that 5' was. Somebody generated the set of data that generated ) 6, the numbers 18 and 19 to George on that basis. t t ) 7 Aufdenkampe: That was Jiausy Paul Cash. ) 8 Mosbaugh: Jiaumy Paul did. Let me go downstairs and talk to Jiaumy J 9 Paul and see... f 10 Aufdenkampe: Okay. I'm trying to get Schwartzwalder up here. i j 11 Mosbaugh Schwartzwalder? Okay. i 12 Shignaan: Okay. One other thing we could do, A1, you know, saying j i 13 we still continue to have problems with trying to define-j 14 this. We could back away from this completely, and 15 change this to say how many starts we've had since we 16 declared the diesel operable. i I + 17 Mosbaugh: Yes, that -- 18 Aufdenkampe That would be more -- 19 Mosbaugh: That's easy to define. We just go into OPS LCO's and 20 find out when they cleared the LCO and we'll know that i 21 point real easy. That's an easy point to find. I think j 22 the other point we'll have to find by tamag to Jiaumy 23 Paul Cash. a 24 Shipman: The problem with that is that that number is going to be i 25 significantly less, I think, than what George told i 26 Mr. Ebneter, and, you know, it's going to create a 37 selling job for me, I think, but eventually, that the 28 only way we can tell a valid story that, you know, we 29 can defend if somebody calls Alan Mosbaugh, Bill Shipman ( 30 and John Aufdenkampe to testify. That's the story I l 31 want to tell. 32 Mosbaugh Well, I think -- you know, let me try some logic here. 33 We have these two failures, and now John says there are j 34 three failures. You know, we're kind of saying, hey, 35 those are not valid failures, you know, because we were 36 ccaning out of maintenance on the machine and had yet to 37 declare it operable. That's how and why we're 38 discounting those failures. l 39 Shipman: So we have yet to determine that coming out of an outage 40 on the machine, we had to go and basically do a complete 41 set of recalibrations of the instruments. That was the 42 logic that George used, not that we were declaring it i 43 operable, because we obviously hadn't declared it l-44 operable. l M.E!$- s . I',*.028 0F.57 _PAGES l l -m s.,

b i j 1 Mosbaugh: Well, one of those failures was when we were doing the, i 2 you know, an eight-hour loaded run. I would sure hope i 3 to hell think that we had calibrated the instruments j 4 before we did an eight-hour loaded run. 5 Shipman: Well,. not according to George. We hadn't recognized the i 6 need to go back and redo all of them then. Is that not i 7 what he said, John Aufdenkaspe? 8 Aufdenkampe: That's what I understood. 9 Mosbaugh: I'm just thi *ing from the standpoint of testing logic, 1 10 _you know, you're going to do an eight-hour loaded run on 11 the machine, you know, obviously the cosponent testing j 12 ought to be done at that point. l s i 13 Shipman: Well obv..., you know, on 1A obviously we thought we had 14-done everything we needed when we returned it to 15 service. 16 Aufdenkampe: It was operable. i 17 Mosbaugh: Yeah. It was declared operable. i 18 Shipman: We found out that we hadn't, and George is saying, oh j 19 oh, hey, gang, from the time we realized that 1A or 18, 20 we had to do a cesplete recalibration ~and make sure we i 21 had our facts together on all the instruments, we had j 22 many many starts. I'm not trying to..., I'm trying to 23 defand George and -- 24 Aufdenkasper Well, you know, the bottom line is on the B diesel, we 25 had done major maintenance on it. We were in the 26 process of testing to make sure it was working right. 27 During that testing process, we had it fail apparently 28 three times. 29 once we got all the bugs worked out of it -- Since the l 30 point we got all the bugs worked out of it that we had j 31 -- we had -- and I'm kind of guessing, but uh, 27 32 starts, because I don't know where the three failures 33 are in the sequence of 27 starte, but we had X number of { 34 starts. And George's argument to that is, after we got 35 all the bugs worked out, we had 18 starts. 36 Shipman: What he's trying to do is he's trying to show by data 37 that once you get the bugs worked out, like you say, 38 John, the diesel works fine. i 39 Aufde** S : That's right. And that's regardless of the point of 40 declaration of operability or not. 41 Shipman: Fine. Right. soort&. l r:2 Ep_cr r/ymns> ,}}

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