ML20062E352
| ML20062E352 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 08/03/1982 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8208090326 | |
| Download: ML20062E352 (96) | |
Text
,,D p @ C'a09j'b UNITED STATES 4
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,o NUCLEAR flEGULATORY COMMISSION
, ]::,E W ASHIN GTON, D.C. 20555
%,d.:{f August 3, 1982 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY MEMORANDUM FOR:
CHIEF, Public Document Room SAMUEL J. CHILK, Secretary M
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T FROM:
SUBJECT:
COMMISSION DETERMINATION STATEMENT REGARDING THE TRANSCRIPT OF: BRIEFING ON EFFORTS TO IMPROVE IAEA SAFEGUARDS, HELD ON WEDNESDAY, JUNE 2,1982 Attached is the Commission Determination Statement for the subject closed Commission meeting and corresponding transcript which is being released in part to the public. This document is forwarded to you for formaTplacement in the Public Document Room pursuant to 10 CFR Part 9.
Two copies are provided for your convenience.
Attachments:
As s.tated=.-
c: DCS-016 Phillips I
8208090326 820803 PDR 10CFR PT9.7 PDR
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'o UNITED STATES j' ' '
i NUCLEAR' REGULATORY COMMISSION n
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W ASHINGTON, D.C. 20555
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August 3, 1982 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISCLOSURE UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE ACT OF:
Transcript of Briefing on Efforts to Improve IAEA Safguards Wednesday, June 2, 1982 Pursuant to 10 CFR 9.108(c) and 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1), the Commission has determined that the attached portions of the subject transcript should be released to the public. The remaining portions of the transcript are being withheld from public disclosure pursuant to 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) as noted below:
Page/Line through Page/Line Exemption 5/01 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 4/19 6/25 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 6/22 10/24 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 10/23 14/07 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 14/05 18/04 18/06 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 18/14 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 18/11 21/23 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 21/21 22/01 22/02 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 25/25 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 25/23 26/ 01 26/03 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 26/07 26/11 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 28/17 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 28/13 37/14 37/14 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 41 /04 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) l 41/03 41 /07 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) l 41/06 41 /22 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 41/21 41/23 41/24 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 42/08 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 41/25 42/10 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 42/09 42/13 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 42/12 42/23 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 42/19 l
42/24 42/25 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 43/02 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 43/ 01 43/07 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 43/03 43/18 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 43/15 43/22 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 43/19 44/15 44/21 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 44/22 44/24 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) l l
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OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY
-page 2-Page/Line Through Page/Line Exemption 44/25 45/03 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 45/04 45/06 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 45/07 45/25 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 59/12 59/14 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 60/14 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 59/23 60/15 60/16 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 62/22 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 62/16 63/05 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 63/01 63/13 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 63/10 63/25 64/04 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 70/21 71 /02 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 80/06 80/12 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 80/17 80/21 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 82/09 82/1 0 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 83/15 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 83/15 84/03 84/03 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 87/12 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) 87/09 87/19 88/02 10 CFR 9.104(a)(1) l l
SAMUE' J. CHILK S cretary 'f the Commission l
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR RESULAIORY 03MMISSION 3
4 BRIEFING ON EFFORTS TO IMPROVE IAEA SAFEGUARDS 5
6 CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTION NO. 1 7
8 N uclear Regulatory Commission Room 1130 9
1717 H Street, N.
W.
Washington, D. C.
10 Wednesday, June 2, 1982 11 The Commission convened in closed session at 12 2:30 p.m.
13 BEFORE:
14 NUNZIO P ALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission 15 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner JCHN AHEARNE, Commissioner 16 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner JAMES ASSELSTINE, Commissioner 17 i
18 STAF,F AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABLE:
19 J. H0YLE l
M. NORDLINGER 20 T. SHERR T. BURNETT 21 W.
DIRCKS J. SHEA 22 AUDIENCE SPEAKERS:
23 J.
ZIMMERMAN 24 K. SANDERS o
25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Good afternoon, ladies 3
and gentlemen.
g.
4 The Commission has expressed concern on 5
several recent occasions about the adequacy of IAEA's 6
safeguards and repeated its desire to support renewed 7
U.
S. effort to improve them.
8 The Commission scheduled this meeting for the 9
purpose of updating itself on efforts to strengthen to international safeguards.
Of particular interest are 11 such questions as what are the principal U. S.
12 activities to strengthen safeguards, how have they been 13 f urthered by NRC efforts in recent months, what more can 14 and should be done and how can NRC better focus its 15 efforts to that end.
16 I would be especially interested in the 17 staff's view of whether there are additional short-term 18 actions which the Commision could take tha t would be of 19 value perhaps with respect to the setting of priority 20 tasks by the action plan working group.
21 Unless other Commissioners have opening 22 remarks, I suggest turning the meeting over to Bill 23 Dircks.
24 ER. DIRCKS:
I will just make a couple of 25 points.
One, we have been working in response to the ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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1 Commission's request.
That interest of the Commission 2
goes back many years, back to 1977, I think when the 3
IAEA Special Safeguards Imprementation Report indicated 4
a significant number of problems existed in the 5
application of IAEA safeguard s.
6 The staf f has pa rticipated in several 7
activities in this area, including the Interagency 8
Action Plan and ao on.
9 Last year there were additional deficiencies to noted or the same deficiencies were noted again.
On 11 March 18th the Commission did write to the various 12 Congressional committees indicating that NBC would 13 continue to strongly support renewed U. S. efforts to 14 improve international safeguards.
In 1982, as you 15 noted, Mr. Chairman, the PPG came out and repeated 16 farther s2pport for the staff and the Commission in this 17 area.
18 We forwarded to you recently 82-210, a staff 19 paper.
We would like to discuss that paper with you I
20 today.
As indicated in 82-210, NHSS did initiate a 21 research request in response to the Commission's l
22 guidance document and that request is expected to be i
23 completed sometime this fall.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am sorry, I missed l
25 that point.
The research request is supportive of ---
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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MR. DIRCKS:
In the Commission's PPG, if you 2
look on page a and 5 of the 82-210 ---
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right.
I an just 4
trying to draw a distinction between the NRC staff doing 5
something and the contractor doing something.
6 MR. DIRCKS:
Oh, well, the contracter's effort 7
is part of the NRC staff.
8 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
It wasn't that the PPG 9
directed a contract?
10 MR. DIRCKS:
No.
You directed our effort and 11 part of that effort is a contractor.
The range of 12 things that will be looked at, I am not too sure what we 13 are going to cet out of it, but we will take another 14 look.
15 We talked about this at the meeting this 16 morning in my office.
One tning I wanted to stress to 17 the Commission is that when you look at the problems of l
18 implementation of I AEA safeguards there is a range of 19 problems 20 21 l
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When you look at what NRC can do and what the 3
staff can do, it is a relatively narrow slice of that 4
pie and that is what we want to talk about today.
We 5
will be talking about va rious things we can do, but many 6
of these things won't get at the major problems that 7
have been identified.
8 So we can im have a discussion here ---
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, we can make 10 recommendations to the Executive Branch.
I mean we can 11 deal with the gut problems in the sense of making 12 recommendtions within our own government.
'4e can ' t 13 actually get our hands on the problems thems.1ves.
i.
14 MR. DIRCKS:
We can get that part of it done.
15 It is a major political issue which a technical staff 16 can't 17 COM3ISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Well, they may or may 18 not pick up on that, but at least 19 ER. DIRCKS:
But I don't think we can identify 20 very much more that the Commission can do in that area.
21 I think that problem has been laid oat to you.
We will 22 discuss some of the upgrading efforts that are being 23 done today, but I don't want to h $$4h* expectations 24 that we are going to bring out too much that you already 25 don't <now about.
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1 On that upbeat note I thought we might get 2
into the discussion.
3
( La u gh t er. )
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4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Have we included in our 5
work the concept of making recommendations to other 6
branches of the Federal Government?
7 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
8 HR. SHERR :
Yes.
9 MR. BURNETT:
Oh, yes.
10 MR. SHEA:
Yes.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is at the heart of 12 the development of the Action Plan E5s making strong 13 recommendations.
14 MR. BURNETI:
The cecommenations haven 't gone 15 much furtner than from us to them.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, it carries a 17 certain amount of weight if it has the backing of the 18 Commission.
19 MR. DIRCKS:
Tha t is.righ t.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
They can still ignore 21 them or decide the time is not opportune.
22 MR. DIRCKS:
23 24 25 ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INC,
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1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs The information 2
transfer request.
3 MR. DIRCKSa And the opening up of aspects of 4
the reporting nature of the agency.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa A lot of this is 6
in trinsic to the nature of the agency and it is not 7
going to ga t changed without changing world politics.
8 COMMISSI3NER AHEARNE:
No, but it is useful to 9
just keep a little pressure on the 10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Right.
11 MR. BURNETTs And Mr. Blix has indicated a 12 little bit more openness a nd interest into some of these 13 pursuits.
So that I think some of the suggestions are 14 getting through via informal channels or otherwise.
15 MR. DIRCKSa But there are two levels to get 16 that type of initiative moving.
I guess the point I am 17 stressing is that the staff can handle one end of it, 18 but the big transfer of nudges would have to come from 19 the Commission itself.
20 Why don't you go ahead.
21 MR. BURNETTs I am not going to say a whole 22 lot at lasst at this stage.
I am going to introduce Mr.
23 Sherr from the Office of HMSS, Division of Safeguards, 24 and Branch Chief of Material Transf er Licensing which 25 has the rasponsibility for import / export and the IAEA ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 1
8 1
Treaty Strengthening Programs.
2 Ted has a briefing package that we hope to 3
flip right through here and everybody will understand.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Is this a classified 5
packet?
6 MR. BURNETT:
No.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Your notes might be.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What is tha t?
9 COMMISSIONER AHE ARNE:
The notes that you take to on it might become classified.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I should have indicated 12 at the beginning of the meeting that this is a 13 classified meeting and the Secretary's Office has 14 checked to make sure that only cleared people are 15 present.
16 MR. H0YLE4 Yes.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINo But this packet is not 18 classifiad.
19 MR. BURNETT:
Right.
20 (Slide presentation.)
21 ER. SHERR I am not sure if we are going to 22 address all the questions tha t you raised at the 23 beginning of the meeting, but we will try.
24 Again, along the lines of what Mr. Dircks 25 said, our focus in terms of staff efforts to support ALDEASCN REPORTING CCMPANY,INC, a
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1 strengthening IAEA safeguards is built within the 2
context of IAEA statutory responsibilities.
We haven't 3
looked beyond in terms of what could be expanded in 4
terms of the IAEA statutory responsibilities or what 5
substitutes there are for IAEA or anything like this.
6 The focus of the briefing is on what NEC staff 7
has been doing to support U.
S.
efforts to stren;then 8
IAEA safeguards.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Ted, if you will speak 10 into the mike I think they can hear you better in the 11 back.
12 MR. SHERRs In terms of the briefing outline 13 just as a matter of overview and background I am going i
14 to cover fairly quickly areas 1 through 3 just to 15 provide you perspective of what NRC has been doing and 16 then the real subject of the meeting is in area 4.
17 The first area is in terms of where NRC has 18 been and what their position is on commitments in te rm s 19 of strengthening IAEA safeguards.
Basically, probably 20 even before NRC was formed, NRC has been involved to 21 varying degrees in efforts to strengthen IAEA safeguards.
22 NRC, in addition, has made ccmmitments in l
23 correspondente with the Execative Branch, in l
24 communications with Congress I think dating back to 25 1977 ---
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
10 1
MB. BURNETT:
The next slide, please.
as well as recently in the PPG 2
MR. SHERE.
3 policy statements, PPG guidance and it has been 4
supplemented also by the EDO draft program guidance.
5 The next slide.
6 COMZISSIONER AHEARNE:
Ted, included in that I 7
gather we have been a major participant in the 8
development of the Action Plan since the Action Plan had 9
as one of its two principal reasons for coming into 10 existence being to strengthen IAEA safeguards.
11 MR. SHERRs That is right.
As a matter of 12 fact, the last time I was briefing the Commission on 13 this thing was in 1978, I think it was, in November when 14 we were looking at what should be the basis for approval 15 of exports.
One of the decisions there was in fact that 16 the Action Plan had beeri developed and there was a need 17 to, which was suggested ea rlier, a need to push for 18 improvements on IAEA safeguards, notwithstanding what we l
19 do in the export category over the meantim e.
20 This vievgraph basically characterizes the 21 general IAEA safeguards problems.
These are generally 22 recognized areas.
They are the types of-things that we 23 iientified in our recent Congressional tectimony 24 the 25 Laformatian flows, wni:h is something that NRC is ALDERSON REFORTING COMPANY,INC,
11 1
particularly interested as well as the backbone of the 2
safeguards organization; problems with the safeguards 3
in spec tion program itself3and its ability to meet its 4
goals; problems with the states in terms of implementing 5
systems that enable the agency to apply effective 6
safeguards and, finally, the standard problem of 7
resources, both equipment and manpower.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, how do you 9
distinguish between B and D?
Is it how well they 10 function given the resources?
11 MR. SHERB:
B generally relates to their 12 inspection program and wha t goals their inspections are 13 directed to ---
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Does that include 15 problems with their goals?
16 MR. SHERR Yes.
'A h a t th ey call safeguards 17 approarhes are inspertion proredures for particular 18 facility types ---
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But their overall goal 20 is trying to detect at a certain time?
21 MR. SHERR:
Right.
22 MR. BURNETT:
Yes, that would be in there 23 also, their timeliness.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Right.
25 C0 MISSIONER AHEARNE:
The new Director ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, mm.mm
12 1
General, at least once in public print, and I don't 2
know, maybe more, and certainly I heard him when he wa s 3
here, addressed a role for safeguards, IAEA safeguards 4
or the role for I AEA safeguards, which really is sort of 5
different than the basic ph!'.osophy I think a lot of our 6
approach has been.
Our approach, which I think is 7
fairly summarized by when we say problems areas, views 8
IAEA safeguards in much the same way we would view 9
safeguards applied to our facilities and what their role 10 and purpose is.
11 But the Director General, as I say at least 12 once in print, has said the purpose of it is nore for 13 use of the country on whose facilities safeguards are 14 being applied to show to the rest of the world that they 15 are living up to their kinds of commitments and that in 16 that sense it is much more a political approval process.
17 MR. SHERR4 I would agree with the Directo r 18 General.
I think 3RC has looked at it and NMSS not in 19 the same vain that we would look at a dome stic 20 safeguards program.
The domestic safeguards program is 21 focused to preventing theft.
We put a lot of reliance 22 on the facility to administet the safeguards procram and 23 much less relying on independent, you know, 24 ce rtifica tion that everything is okay and verification.
25 Whereas, along the lines of what you are suggesting, the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
13 1
agency, their responsibility is to make an independent 2
conclusion that everything is okay.
So when they say 3
everything is okay'the neighbor is satisfied.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What he said, at least 5
in a conversation I had with him, and then when I saw it 6
in print I thought he was making the saae point, was 7
that one shouldn't expect that much out of the 8
inspection program.
That, instead, the fact that a 9
country is willing to invite the IAEA inspectors in and 10 to have their facility put under IAEA inspection is the 11 significant fa t because that shows the country's 12 willingness to say that I am going to ask this outside 13 agency to verify that I am living up to th e commitments, 14 but that we shouldn't apply that same kind of 15 expectation of level of technical standard that we might 16 apply if se were looking at out own f a cilities.
That is 17 what I meant by 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, he is just being 19 a little franker than his predecessor -- well, a lot 20 franker -- about the limitations of the agency, and I 21 think he sees it more clearly than his predecessor, too.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, a t least he is 23 much franker about it.
I never had the discussions with 24 his predecessor that what, so I don 't know.
All I can 25 say is he seemed to be very frank, but he really was ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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saying, again if I endorse his frankness, he was saying 2
this is the way he lookJ a t what those saf egua rds are dd{efe6G 3
for.
It is slightly than I think the way we have tended 4
to look at what those safeguards are for.
5 MR. BURNETI:
6 7
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Nofwouldwe try to.
9 MR. BURNETT:
Nor would we try to.
I didn't 10 vant to follow that up, but that is what he said.
But 11 that is not the important point.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is consistent with 13 the philosophy at least that I heard him saying, which 14 actually is a bit inconsistent with saying these anS 15 problem areas.
That is the fundamental point I was 16 making.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, he is being 18 franker, and I think that is good, but what he says is 19 at odis with what the IAEA has put down as its 20 objectives.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, I was asking a 22 question.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY So if you look at what 24 the agency has said it is going to do or does in writing 25 in its documents and in various places, in official IAEA ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
15 1
documents, then one finds that it doesn't measure up in 2
these ways.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE But, Vic, I wasn't 4
really trying to say now do an analysis of how the 5
documents trark with what the DG has said.
I was saying 6
that Blix seems to be giving a role for safeguards that 7
is different.
I am not saying that we ought to 8
therefore say, Well, let's buy Blix's description of the 9
role.
I Was just pointing out that when we say these 10 are IAEA safaguards problem areas, we have a di$fe r/en t 11 philosophy of what IAEA safeguards are for than at least 12 I heard him say.
13 COMM.ISSIONER GILINSKY Well, we are applying 14 a severer test to their performance than he would seem 15 to be applying.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, not only a 17 severer test.
The impression I got is he would be 18 saying that is the wrong testg.
Those are useful goals 19 to talk about and they are nice aims to put down, but 20 they don't fit with the tests he will be applying.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINos But even if you want to 22 meet his point, if it is going to be an effective tool 23 for showiag the other nations that a particula r na tion 24 has complied with safeguards, you still need an 25 effective means to do it.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, I would let him 2
defend his case.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But I think he did, 4
didn't he.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, but I think he 6
would disagree with that.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I think 8
basically that they now realize that if somebody grabs 9
material and runs off with it they are not going to be 10 able to tell you about it before someone could actually 11 use it.
I mean, we have said that ourselves in letters 12 to the Congress.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.
That is another debate.
14 (Laughter.)
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You know, they don't, 16 or at least he doesn't pretend that they can do that.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
He did say, though, that 18 when they got information that it should be made 19 available to the Board of Governors.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Oh, yes.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I am just saying to put 22 all these things in context it doesn't necessarily 23 indicate that these are no t problems, but from the 24 perspective he is working they might have a different 25 thrust.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, fMMAa6LttEsAsive
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think he would 2
regard all of these things as problems.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sure, but it is the 4
level of importance that I t,hink he would differ with.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
No, I think he would 6
like to see all these things fixed up.
7 MR. BURNETTa A,
C and D I think he would 8
readily address.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Yes.
10 MR. BURNETT He knows of these short 11 resources.
12 COMMISSIONER AHE ARNE:
Oh, sure.
13 MR. SHEA:
But he would not have a high level 14 of optimism.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Sometimes some people 16 in the NRC have I think tended to say that unless this 17 can be done that we should not expect IAEA safeguards to 18 be satisfactory, and I think from his point of view that 19 would be in correct.
20 MR. SHERR:
For one thing, we never said that.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I didn't say you did.
22 MR. SHERR No, no ---
23 (Laughter.)
24 MR. SHERR:
There are a couple of things that 25 are going on though.
One of the things is that SAGSI, ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
18 1
the StTndard Advisory Group for Safeguards 2
Implementation, is in fact looking at what are the 3
factors tnat should go in the IAEA's goals other than 4
just the quantitative goals.
5 6
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am sorry ---
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Well, wait a minute.
9 To pursue your point, John, though, his massage has not 10 been one that has been received well in a lot of 11 places.
12 13 14 The reason is tha t these 15 safeguards are absolutely an indispensable element in 16 legitimizing nuclea r trade.
There is just no question 17 about that, and it is very upsetting to a lot of people 18 to take this laid-back view of them ---
19 (Laughter.)
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY s If everyone accepted 21 that view and if that is the view that wa s presented to 22 the Congress and that is the way the Executive Branch 23 talked about it, and that is the way other countries 24 talked about it, and that is the way the IAEA talked 25 about it, then we would have a whole different situation ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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and[ I think you have raised would be a lot more 2
pertinent.
3 You know, maybe this isn't the thing to be 4
evaluating the agency on in that case, but that isn't 5
the world we live in.
We have just got this one lonely 6
Director Seneral who is vandering around and saying s
everyfehas been 7
well, maybe these things aren't what 8
saying they were.
9 (Laughter.)
to COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, actually what he 11 was saving, I thought, was that the people who really 12 have put the system in place and have tried to make it 13 work and nost of the senior :ountry that he works with 14 have this view of it and that there have been 15 discussions of it which seems to treat it as a different 16 thing.
He is just saying let's try to be frank and talk 17 about what it is rather than what some people have 18 described it to be.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, we can go on on 20 this for a long time.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Do you want to proceed.
22 MB. SHERRa So these are the problem areas.
23 The next vie wg ra ph, please.
24 As a general matter, the U.
S.
has been 25 attacking these problem areas through interagency ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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20 1
mechanisms involving State, ACDA, DOE and NRC.
The 2
Commission paper that was forwarded in January of '82 3
kind of gave some background and profile of what was 4
going on in the interagency groups, the main one being 5
the Interagency Steering G'rou p which has oversight for 6
U.
S.
international safeguards policy. The NRC 7
representatives in that group are Jin Shas and Bob 8
Burnett.
9 The Action Plan Work Group, which you are 10 familiar with, is coordinating the various efforts in 11 th e U.
S.
Government to strengthen IAEA safeguards and 12 representatives from IP and NMSS are involved in that 13 group.
14 The Te:hnical Support Coordinating Committee, 15 which basically 16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
May I interrupt.
17 MR. SHERR:
Sure.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Since you are much more 19 familiar with the working group than I am, you may have 20 accurately des:ribai what it is, but if I quote from 21 that February paper you just mentioned, that sells them 22 short on what it is supposed to be.
It describes it as l
23 "The Action Plan Working Group was developed in an 24 attempt to bring into an integrated framework ongoing 25 U.
S. activities in support of IAEA safeguards," and l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
21 1
that is what you said, but/ and to identify additional 2
steps to correct specific deficiencies in the 3
implementation of IAEA safeguards."
4 So a t least as I read it at the time and as I 5
have read it all along, it seemed to me that it was to a 6
place in which one would identify what corrective 7
actions ought to be taken and then to coordinate the 8
U.
S. effort.
9 MR. SHERRs (Inaudible.)
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, but it is 11 critical in sort of the focus if we are saying that what 12 we ought to try to do is figure out how to identify 13 deficiencies.
14 MR. SHERR In fact, later on here when I talk 15 about our activities that is precisely the way I have 16 identified it.
17 The one area that is much more informal is 18 just the routine every-day clearance of cables.
Some of 19 them are in the context of the Action Plan and some of 20 them within the POTAS prog ram, the TSCC type thing, but tese N 21 other ones like bessess examples 22 23 and this type of i
24 thing are, you know, we routinely get these things for l
25 review and this is the mechanism to communicate to the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, M@ VMFARMA AML 2R WA@ MIN @T@N. @ C. PK6)84 (8@@) @@4 ?#45
22 fission 1
2 lo it is kind of an informal and sometimes ad 3
hoc type type thing.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
How effectively is that 5
wo rkin g ?
6 MR. SHERR:
Well, sometimes I think if you 7
don't get the right answer one time you are not on 8
clearance for the cable the next time.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MR. SHERRs So they tend likely to tow the 11 mark I think a little bit, but I think it works pretty 12 vall.
There are a lot of times, like I got a note 13 coming in here that if I don't call back and clear right 14 away, they will send it without me.
They don't usually 15 do that, and that is the cable going back on the SIR o 16 the U.
S.
position.
17 ER. BURNETT4 We have been successf al in l
l 18 modifying them when we had things to say.
19 MR. SHERR:
Yes, I think so.
l l
20 5R. BURNETT:
And that is important to know.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
The other thing 22 is do you get the sense that they really a re asking for 23 your comments on all the important ones?
l 24 MR. BURNETT:
Yes, very much so.
25 MR. SHERR:
Yes, but I don't know all the ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
c 23 1
important cables.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa Well, no, but usually 3
after the fact you would probably find out if there was 4
one that ---
5 MR. SHERR I think as a general matter.
We 6
don't get asked f or :leara nce on cables relating to 7
hexapartite and we are not involved in that and things 8
like this.
9 MR. BURNETI:
It is a lot better than it used 10 to be, Commissioner Ahearne.
They call over personally 11 and ask how should this be worded and have we covered it 12 all.
13 C055ISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Of course, we have 14 colonized the place.
15 (Laughter.)
16 ER. BURNETT:
Those colonies are the ones that 17 called in.
18 (Laughter.)
19 MR. SHERR:
Now we have gotten to the point in 20 the briefing that relates to what NBC is doing.
The 21 overview is just that what we do is generally in the 22 context of the overall U.
S.
Government activities and 23 support of these activities.
24 This covers basically what our general 25 activity stems are, examplos of specific efforts within ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
24 1
those activity areas and, finally, what types of 2
additional things we are thinking about doing in the 3
future.
4 With regard to the activity areas, there are 5
three major areas.
6 The first one, and this is along the lines 7
of ---
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Can I ask you what 9
category are the things in 82-210 going to fall into?
10 Are these proposed efforts?
11 MR. SHERRs Pardon?
I am sorry, I didn't hear 12 the question.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Are you going to run 14 through the items in 82-210 somewhere along the way?
15 MR. BURNETTs They will show up in some of his 16 vieagraphs.
17 MR. SHERRs There are three basic areas.
18 The first area, which is the primary area, 19 where we support strengthening IAEA safeguards, is 20 participating in the U. S. Government's identification 21 of safeguards issues that need resolution, developing 22 positions and solutions for these issues and assisting 23 in implementing these solutions where we can.
[
24 CHAIRM4N PALLADIN0s Does this come out of our l
25 membership on the Action Plan Working Group?
I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
m 25 1
MR. SHERR:
Yes, th e coordinating - -
technical support 2
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:Is that 4
it arises?
prima rily wh ere 5
MR. SHERR:
Yes.
In f act, the next four 6
bullets basically talk about the context 7
that we exercise that activity interagency which is participation in the 8
groups, reviewing and 9
a c tivi ties.
coordina tin g We also provide direct consult 10 IAEA and to member states.
ation to the training courses, We participate in 11 IAEA particularly SSAC type things and 12 conduct specific projects in suppo 13 rt of USG efforts.
Now the last two general areas sre less 14 pointedly directed to strengthening 15 there is some relationship IAEA safeguards, but 16 The next one is to facilitate implementati 17 of safeguards in the United Sta tes on 18 some examples of that and I will get into 19 a little later.
- Finally, an area where we haven 't exercised 20 too much basi:1117 baciuse we don 't 21 information.
have specific enough But many of the problems of 22 in fact the agency are with the kind of implementation 23 that is done j
24 i
25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY INC, 400 VIRGINIA AW
26 1
2 3
4 This in fact was one of the items that we 5
managed to squeeze in the Action Plan way back in 1977 6
which was actually contrary to Mr. Pickering's response 7
of April of '78 8
9 10 11 12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is different than 13 the Pickering response.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Than what?
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Mr. Pickering was 16 addressing the issue, as I think we know, with respect 17 to the NNP A and its application of ef fectiveness in 18 sa feg ua rd s which is different than something that might 19 be in the Action Plan.
20 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Who was Mr. Pickering?
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
He was the Assistant l
22 Sacretary of State Functions -- (Inaudible).
23 MR. SHERR The whole context here is that the l
24 first general area is really the basic in terms of what l
25 ve are doing to strengthen IAEA safeguards and the other l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
27 1
two are activities that were involved and th a t also 2
tends to or could also support stren;thening IAEA 1
safeguards.
4 In teris of examples of specifi: activities 5
within these specific efforts, one activity is 6
participating in the interagency planning, reviewing and 7
coordinating activities.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You have been through 9
that about four times.
10 MR. SHERH:
In addition to the standing d
11 interagency groups, we get involved in things like TASTK 12 and INFCE.
13 COMMISSIONER SILINSKY What is TASTjf?
14 MR. SHERR:
That was the review of safeguards 15 and reprocessing by Toka-Mura and that exercise was 16 looking at safeguards technology.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What came out of that?
18 MR. SHERR I am not sure.
19 COMMISSIONER GILIN3KY:
What did we contribute?
l 20 MR. SHERRs We provided a technical review in 21 terms of instrumentation and how it affected ---
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Actual instruments?
23 MR. SHERR:
Yes.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We supplied 25 instruments to Toka-Mura ?
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
28 1
MR. SHERR:
No, it was just review.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Review of instruments?
3 MR. 5 HERR Review of the program in terms of 4
the types of instruments that they were going to be 5
employing in the test to demonstrate how ---
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What were they going 7
to demonstrate?
8 MR. SHERR I think they were trying to 9
demonstrate that they could provide a measured material 10 balance within the goal of quantities.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is the thing completed 12 or is it still going on?
13 MR. SHERR TASTEX is completed.
14 15 16 17 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I just want to pursue 19 this.
I don't mean to press you here unkindly, but so 20 much of this is turning the crank bureaucratically.
21 Where are the itais where we have made a difference or 22 something has actually happened?
So as you g'o through l
23 these things maybe you could highlight those.
24 MR. SHERR:
Okay.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That would be helpful l
l l
l ALDERSON REPORENG COMPANY,INC, d@
29 1
because I had the same feeling.
I went back to look 2
again at what was said about TASTEX and th ere was very 3
little.
It doesn't give any indication of what 4
participation we had, if any.
5 MR. SHERR:
I think the first item here 6
happens to be more bureaucratic.
7 COMMISSIONER SILINSKY:
I got set off a little 8
by these interagency meetings.
I mean, it is a forced 9
interagency item and there are interagency meetings all to over town on millions of subjects and it goes on and 11 on.
That is where th ey ought to deregulate.
12 (Laughter.)
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
If you have any 14 friends you can tell that to.
s 15 (Laughter.)
l 16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Some of us have 17 suggested that we could, f or e xample, remove the NRC 18 from the expo rt licensing process.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, some of us don't 20 vant to cirry out our responsibilities, John.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Some of us try to 1
22 interpret responsibilities into the law.
23 MR. SHERR The second area here I think is 24 along more of the line which you are addressing, the 25 direct consultation to the IAEA and to states.
t l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
30 1
Examples of these are we have over the last 2
three or four years directly provided consultation to 3
the IAEA Safeguards Evalua tion Section, which is the 4
group that provides the SIR and evaluates inspection 5
results and this type of thing.
Recently we have been 6
providing them consultation on developing a quality 7
assurance program for a containment surveillance which 8
deals with seals and films in particular.
9 In the past we have been involved in helping 10 them develop procedures, for example ---
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do we work with them 12 directly?
Do we go over there or do they 13 MR. SHERE:
Yes, exactly.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Somebody goes over, 15 experts from our staff go and talk to them?
16 MR. SHERE:
Yes, sir.
17 MR. BURNETT Yes.
18 MR. SHERR:
In the past we have worked with 19 them on developing 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
This is presumably run 21 through the mission or through the State Department, and 22 how does that work?
23 MR. SHERR:
It is basically coordinated by 24 ACDA.
It is between ACDA, NRC and one contractor 25 employee who is basically providing this.
Rather than ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, a_sgaspyusatuar.M.fsve
31 1
providing a cost-free expert, it is basically just 2
divied up in terms of providing, and we have provided 3
this on almost a foreign travel funds available basis 4
historically.
It started on a one-time per-quarter 5
basis and fell back to like once s year and now we are 6
back to twice a year basically.
7 In the past we have provided them consultation 8
and assisted then in developing procedures for 9
examination of records, which is now part of their 10 technical manual in terms of its use.
11 Then the same think in the same context are 12 procedures for assessment of inspection reports.
We 13 have assisted them in that area.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Do we ever get any 15 assistance on funding that from anybody else?
16 MR. SHERRa Until this last year we had never 17 used any POTAS funds for travel of U. S. Government 18 employees.
We have relaxed that a little bit through 19 some machinism or sosething.
But basically it is in 20 response to a direct agency request that we are 21 providing that particular person.
The tendency is to 22 try to minimize that because every time we use travel 23 funds out of POTAS that means there is not a specific 24 project that we can support, but the igency may be 1
25 requesting otherwise.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
32 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Do we have access to 2
POTAS funds?
3 MR. SHERRa You mean for travel?
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
For travel and for 5
providing consultation services or advisory services.
6 MR. SHERR:
Yes, if it is a direct request, 7
although we like to minimize it because it saturates and 8
it wouldn't look too good if it ended up where extensive 9
U.
S. Government travel for employees was being funded 10 out of P0 RAS.
I think it is legitimate what is being 11 done, but I think it needs to be kept within control.
12 MR. BURNETT:
But any time we spend out of 13 POTAS that just comes out of a technical program.
So it 14 is robbing Peter to pay Paul.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My question was more 16 whether ACD A or the State Department had offered some of 17 their travel funds?
18 MR. SHERRa No.
The closest we got to it is i
19 an advisory group meeting where NBC was a participant.
20 So the agency paid for our travel and ACDA paid travel 21 for one of their employees.
That is about the closest.
22 We also have done direct consultation with 23 states.
We have been working with Korea for the last 24 couple of years in developing their state regulations.
25 A member af our Escilities Licensing staff has been ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
33 1
working with them.
2 MR. BURNETT4 I think that is a good 3
example ---
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY4 How is that 5
arrangement made?
6 MR. SHERR4 I don't know.
I don't know how it 7
was initiated.
8 MR. BURNETTs It is through a bilateral.
A 9
member of the Licensing staff of NHSS has made several 10 trips to Korea and they are setting up an MCCA program 11 that mirro; s the United States, and it is a direct, I 12 think, exam ple of wha t you were looking for, something 13 hard.
14 MB. SHEA:
Most of our cooperation is in 15 safety, but that is an unusual one where they have asked 16 for assistance in 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 Is that the only l
18 country?
19 MR. SHEA4 That is the only one I believe, 20 except for Japan.
21 MR. BURNETTs Japan has asked for general 22 information.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But as far as details 24 in helping to set up a specific ---
25 MR. BURNETT:
That is the only one.
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
34 1
MR. SHERR We provided, and I am not sure if 2
it was in tesponse to a raquest by the agency to assist 3
them in training, direct consulta/ tion to Taiwan in 4
terms of reporting procedures.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Has any country ever 6
asked for us to look at what they have developed and to 7
provide taem romaants on how to strengthen it?
8 MR. BURNETI:
No, not that I am aware of.
9 MR. SHERR The last item in this group here 10 is bilateral exchanges with visitors.
We have on a 11 routine basis foreign visitors who come in and the topic 12 of conversa tion is always for us to describe our 13 domestic safeguards program.
So, you know, in that cur Fro w cad this is li f,&T ar-what 14 sense, but nothing in terms of 15 do you think about it.
16 We also participate in the IAEA consultants 17 and advisory group meetings.
I guess it is important in 18 this contaxt to say that when we talk about 19 participating we mean if we are the U. S. participant we 20 prepare the U. S.
position paper on these things and 21 work out any working papers that the advisory group 22 might come up with for further implementation.
23 Examplas of groups that we have been involved 24 in are the Design Features Group that met last December 25 in looking at design features that would facilitate ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
35 1
implementation of IAEA safeguards.
Some of the problems 2
that the I AEA has are to apply safeguards at facilities 3
that are very difficult to apply safeguards to.
So it 4
requires more inspection time or reduces the 5
effectiveness of what they can apply.
6 That meeting dealt with design f eatures for 7
LW P. s.
There will be another meeting that we are 8
preparing for in September on reprocessing.
9 We also participated in a November meeting, a 10 consultants meeting lesling with procedures for 11 reporting of exports and imports.
The agency is having 12 serious problems with matching exports and imports, 13 which is an integral part of their saf egua rds program.
14 We basically helped them devise the U.
S.
proposals, 15 basically what the agency adopted, and procedures for 16 secomplishing that.
As I will discuss later, we are in 17 th e process of developing implementation of that right 18 now.
19 In the past, back in the '79 '80 time frame we 20 were involved heavily and made significant contributions 21 in developing an SSAC guidelines.
The guidelines that 22 finally popped out were much more general than what we 23 would have liked to have seen, but the agency is still 24 looking now to provide more specific guidelines.
In 25 fact, the POIAS program is providing the cost-free ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, r4WSSvn
36 1
1 expert this coming year starting this month I guess to 2
work on that subject.
3 Ihe third area is participation in training 4
courses.
As you are probably aware, the U. S. under DOE 5
sponsorship as well as the NNPA re uirements provides an 6
SSAC training course out in Santa Fe.
I think it is 7
every other year now.
The NRC has provided two lectures 8
for every one of those courses in the last three years.
9 The USSR also provides ---
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
In Santa Fe?
11 MR. SHERR:
Yes.
That is near Los Alamos.
12 (Laughter.)
13 MR. BURNETT:
Los Alamos has a contract for it.
14 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
That is a nice place to 15 be.
16 (Laughter.)
17 MR. BURNETT:
It is a highly regarded course.
18 MR. SHERR:
The USSR is providing for the tospendsomeoftheirrubhstoprovidea 19 agency on 20 training rourse in Russia hs the SSAC.
We have provided
/
21 lectures for that on two occasions, and most recently 22 last 23 COMMISSIONER ROBERPS:
I will go observe that 24 one.
25 (Laughter.)
ALDERSoN REPORTING CCMPANY,INC, W4U4thfhYft
r 37 1
MR. SHERR:
The last item is that DCE provides 2
for Foreign Service a fuel cycle and nonproliferation 3
course just to acquaint people.
Our group basically 4
provides the lecture on IAEA safeguards.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Where is that course?
6 MR. SHERR:
It is in Washington.
7 (Laughter.)
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Who are the students?
9 MR. SHERR:
I don't know exactly.
Jim might to be able to describe more specifically.
e ncicS Various g-
'- with interest.
11 MR. SHEA:
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
For foreigners?
13 MR. BURNETT the U.
S.
14 MR. SHERR:
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What kind of people 16 take the first two courses?
17 MR. SHERR:
These are representatives of 18 governments.
19 MR. BURNETT:
They are th e developing nations 20 and they are the hands-on people that are going to have 21 t3e role of developing the SSAC's when they get back to 22 their country.
23 MR. SHERR:
There is a mixed participation.
24 In fact, some courses have higher level people and some (Inaudible).
25 tend to get ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, m
38 1
MR. BURNETI:
They take ba:k a lot of good 2
data and they cover also physical security.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is the NRC involved or 4
has the NRC been involved in the last six months in 5
training courses, or U.
S.
nonprolifecation courses?
6 MR. SHERR:
Yes.
As a matter of fact, there 7
is one tomorrow.
I am not sure how often it is.
8 MR. ZIMMERMAN:
Every two months.
SHEh4 Jim Zimmerman just recently 9
MR.
10 attended one.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
How many people are 12 involved?
13 HR. ZIMMERMAN:
Oh, 25 to 30 U.
S.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINC:
No, I meant NRC people.
15 MR. ZIMMERMAN NBC people?
I was the only 16 one of the students this last ti m e.
I gather we have 17 had one or two each year.
18 Ken Sanders here from NMSS is a lecturer at 19 these courses.
20 CHAIRMAN P ALL A DI NO:
What I am trying to get a 21 feel for is what is the magnitude of our contribution?
22 Is it one person essentially full time throughout the 23 year?
Is it one person every two months for a week?
l 24 MR. BURNETI:
We have one period to lecture.
25 Is th a t a two-hour period?
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, i
4
39 9)u'UDE29 1
MB. M n ".C SM
- N :
It originated as about a 2
three-hour.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
A three-hour lecture 4
about how often?
SaaNT36C.t:
5 MR. N N:
Every two months, six times a 6
year.
7 COMMISSIONEP AHEARNE:
That is for this last 8
course?
Snua10ti d
- 9 M R. 52SMttRtl***
Yes.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Which course?
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The nonpoliferation 12 course.
13 MR. SHERR:
This is like within the 14 government 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Eighteen man-hours.
16 (Laughter.)
17 CHAIPMAN PALLADINO:
Now how about the other 18 training courses?
19 MR. BURNETT:
In the first one we send two 20 people out of our offices, one on physical security and 21 the other on MCCA and they each have about a two to 22 three hout time slot.
23 The course is what, about a week long?
N--. -.
Two weeks.
24 MR.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
How often is it run?
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
40 SAWDERS:
1 MR. EtittsteNWt Every year they have a 2
two-week course.
On alternating years they have one 3
course on bulk handling facilities and in the 4
alternating year they have a course on research reactor 5
and power reactors.
In addition, they have a physical 6
security course.
7 MR. BURNETT:
Then this past year they left 8
that facility and visited one of the licensed power 9
plants for an on-site review of physical security.
It 10 is very highly regarded by the interna tional group.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEAFNE:
Then the commitment of 12 our people to support it is very small.
13 MR. BURNETT Very small and very well spent.
14 Of course, we make contact with each of the country's 15 representatives and then during the visits that rubs off 16 real well.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
It would be helpful as 18 you go through the other items if you can give us a feel 19 for what the magnitude of our participation is.
20 MR. SHERR The specific projects we are 21 involved in, one is the review of the implications of 22 the IAEA technical objectives.
23 COMMISSIONER OILINSKY:
What are these 24 technical objectives?
25 MR. SHERR These are the inspection goals.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 6f4MJX#&SM3dM29i
41 1
C0dMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What are we doing 2
about them?
3 ER. SHERR 4
5 Let me step back for a second.
Back in 1976 6
o 7
there were two types of 8
concerns from the NBC.
One type of concern was they are 9
not strong enough.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Which goals are you 11 talking about?
Coald you identify tnam?
12 MR. SHERR The 8 KGs plutonium, the 25 KGs 13 high-enriched uranius and 75 KGs low-enriched uranium 14 with timeliness.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, whatever it was, 16 the seven to ten days?
17 MR. SHERR:
Right, exactly.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Those were, as I 19 understand, developed by some contractor.
20 MR. SHERR:
SAGSI.
SAGSI basically got it in 21 an ordained form from the agency.
22
(
23 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
24 25 MR. SHERR:
l I
{
t ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, J40,
42 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
to 11 HR. SHERR There were some concerns related 12 to the achievability, the lack of adequate definition 13 as well as the general 14 intuition that they weren't achievable from a technical 15 point of view.
16 The other area was dealing in terms of whether 17 or not that was the right level or something more 18 intense was appropriate.
19 20 l
21 l
22 23 24 COP.MISSIONER GILINSKY:
25 ALDERSON REPCRTING CoupANY,INC, n
43 1
MR. SHERE:
2 3
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
4 5
6 7
8 MR. SHERRs Well, they are tied to it.
I know 9
there is some -- (Inaudible).
to COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa By a multiplication 11 factor, yes.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE But it is kind of the 13 reference point.
14 Ken, you are shaking your head.
15 MR. SANDERS:
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO.
Ken, if you st nd up I 24 can see you better and I can hear you better.
25 MR. SANDERS:
I am trying to look while I am ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INO.
L96%
44 1
i 1
talking.
2 (Laughter.)
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINC:
Oh, okay.
Go ahead.
4 MR. SANDERS:
One of the things I threw in my 5
brief:sse in coming here today was a copy of the 6
inspection goals used for 1980.
If I can find that I 7
would like to ---
8 MR. BURNETT:
Ken was an inspector over with 9
the IAEA for two years.
10 MR. SANDERS:
If I may give an example.
The IAEA categorizes the facilities into four categories, 11 12 one being light dater reactors an1 then compares the inspection activities to the inspection goals.
13 14 For light water reactors in 1980, and this is 15 no different for 1981, 16 17 18 19 20 21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
f 22 23 24 25 MR. SANDERS:
ALDERSON PEPoRTING COMPANY,INC.
floRL folR R6@84 (202) 554-2345
45 1
2 3
4 C0dMI53IONER GILINSKY:
S 6
7 MR. SANDERS 4 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, a@ MilF;r#fam lWXR.JLtL Y2)l5T0lN@T@N, Fo),@. R5fdR4 (ff#@ FA3-AT42
46 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I wasn't actually 2
thinking of the light water reactor case.
3 Your other point is important, too, because 4
even if they were meeting these goals, that doesn't 5
square with the objective of safeguards as laid down by 6
the IAEA, which is to deter diversion by the threat of 7
ea rly detection.
8 In other words, if your objective is to get 9
there roughly at the time someone can make a bomb, or in 10 fact as they really aim two or three times that sort of 11 time, then how can you be doing your job to deter by the 12 threat of early detection?
You are not doing your job.
13 So it just doesn't square with the IAEA's own 14 f2ndamental objectives.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Does the IAEA objective 16 have timely warning in there?
17 COMEISSIONER GILINSKY It is precisely that, 18 deter diversion by the threat of early detection.
They 19 had a two part.
There is a political objective, and 20 that is there other part.
They come now to say more like 22 well you can't totally rely on the IAEA system.
It has 23 to be linked with other systems like intelligence.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY.
Now they are saying 25 that.
ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, a6m MQsWm3 AML 2.m_ gNT@(& @,g, fir @4 (PT@) gg3 834g
47 1
MR. BURNETT:
Yes, sir, now they are saying 2
that.
3 COMMISSIONER BOBERIS:
Who is they?
4 MR. BURNETI:
IAEA now says that.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, they are saying,
6 we have to rely on intelligence.
7 MR. BURNETT:
Right.
They can't provide the 8
ul timate safeguards.
It is one tool in coordination 9
with tools that sre available to other countries.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, as originally 11 laid down 12 MR. BURNETI:
I know.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY
--- it was expected to 14 damm&me deter diversion by the threat of early 15 detection.
Now it can do it in some areas, but it can't 16 do it 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I don't know whether it 18 was really expected to.
The statement was there.
19 MR. BURNETT:
The goal was there.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But as we just heard, 21 the goals were ---
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
No, this is 23 different.
This more formal.
The stuff that we a re 24 talking about here is the product of committees and so 25 on which I think is what you are going to say ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
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48 1
COMMI53IONES AHEARNE:
Well, no.
I was going 2
to really say that the NRC apparently didn 't think it 3
vas technically f easible when they originally ---
L eter 4
C05MISSIONER GILINSKY:
But 2 d
5 diversion by the threat of early detection, that is down 6
in their basic documents and that is something that the 7
IAEA itself has dritten down and approved and it has 8
been in there for some time.
These specific numerical 9
goals are the products of various advisory committees 10 and have been adopted as a practice and they don't have 11 the same f o rmal sta tus.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Eut the objective was to 13 deter by the threat of early identification.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Exartly.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
It wasn't to guarantee 16 that they were going to identify for you early enough i
17 the intended diversion.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
They go on to say 19 implicit in this is that you are going to detect early j
20 enough and with high enough confidence.
I mean 21 otherwise the whole thing doesn't make any sense.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
This is subtle wording 23 and you are misquoting the wording.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It isn't the 25 possibility, you know, it isn't that there is a chance ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
49 1
in a hundred that somebody may catch you.
It is the 2
likelihood that 3
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE B ut, you see, as we 4
have seen, there are some countries who have adamantly 5
resist-ad having safeguards applied, and at least there 6
are some people, myself included, who have a suspicion 7
that the reason that they are doing that is because they 8
think that that threat is sufficiently believable that 9
they don't want those safeguards applied.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Yes, but so what?
So 11 they don't want to even take a slight chance.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa They think it is a lot 13 larger thsn a slight chance.
I think the system 14 basically does hsve a strong th re a t to it.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Well, you know, we 16 have each got to decide how effective the system is.
17 But when the system itself is saying that it doesn't 18 even aim to catch the diversion on a time scale shorter 19 than you could turn this stuff into a bomb, you know, 20 what kind of a system is that?
l 21 MR. BURNETI4 Well, you also have to take into 22 account that they have said that, particularly for 23 plutonium, Commissioner Oilinsky.
24 C0dMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I will tell you where 25 this comes fron.
Originally everyone thought in terms ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, M6L-
50 1
of the country sort of bleeding off a little bit and 2
bleeding off a little bit and it is going to take a long 3
time.
Everybody had very long times in mind and they 4
ceally didn't think in terms of ---
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The insider diversion 6
scenario, the tiny little amount demand.
7 C0dMISSIGNER GIIINSKY:
They really didn't 8
think in terms of a :ountry simply taking the stuff and 9
deciding it is going to make bombs.
10 One of the reasons for that is that years ago 11 we used to think that making bombs is this horrendous 12 thing, $2 billion in Los Alamos and, you know, that sort 13 of thing.
So that it was just impossible for anybody to 14 do this without us knowinq about it, but in fact as more 15 and more information is available and if people do their 16 homework, and we all know that countries have done 17 computer runs and have done various kinds of tests and 18 so on, it is a whole different world and then it does 19 matter.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs It is still difficult.
21 It is not easy to make a bomb.
It still takes a lot of 22 work and a lot of preparation to get there.
It is 23 certainly true that a lot of countries are now able to 24 invest that kind of time and effort to doing it.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And many have.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, nrr@dra FdR M6MBAT68 EM-tim
51 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Vic, is your point that 2
the objectives are so unachievable that we shouldn't try 3
to improve the IAEA safeguards?
Are the objectives 4
wrong?
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I am saying the 6
objectives for certain kinds of materials, for nuclear 7
explosive materials are just not such that they will let 8
you meet the fundamental goals of the agency.
I think 9
what one needs to say is that you are not safeguarding 10 that material.
You can't safeguari tha t ma terial.
What 11 You can do is inspect it to the extent it is there when 12 one inspects it.
13 But I think it is a whole different kettle of 14 fish in dealing with reactors where, you know, the goals 15 I think are schievable in princip 16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I was trying to get how l
17 your point fit into trying to understand what NRC's ---
l 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I will tell you 19 where this leads me.
20 CHAIRUAN PALLADINO:
No, I am serious.
21 COMMISSIONER SILINSKY:
The reac tors and their 22 fuel and so on comprise, I don't know, 95 percent of all 23 nuclear 1:tivities or more, 98 percent.
There you can 24 have a system which really can perform this safeguarding 25 function.
I mean, it requires improvement and I think i
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,
52 1
that is what we really ought to aim for, and it really 2
can detect material on a time scale so tha t before it 3
can be misused we can know about it and do something 4
about it and so on.
5 I think in the other area when we are talking 6
about higaly enriched uranium and plutonium you can't do 7
that.
Now to the extent it is there you want to inspect 8
it and so on, but I think we ought to talk about it in a 9
different way.
One of the contributions we can make is 10 to urge that these things be described differently.
11 COEZISSIONER AHEARNE:
I certainly have no 12 problem with their being described differently.
I 13 thought though if we do that we ought to be explicit as 2011 ve believe,pdfought to be there 14 to wha t kind of 1 15 or what kind of a goal can be there.
~d For example, it is possible to say the goal 17 should be that if a :cuntry has devoted substantial 18 effort into developing the technology for a nuclear 19 weapon and has done all of the fairly extensive homework 20 required to develop a design, then the time required to 21 take a formula quantity and nake it into a bomb is very, 22 very short.
It can be a week or a few days.
23 In that case we can then raise the question 24 should the goal be to guarantee that you can detect the 25 diversion of the formula quantity within a day.
And I ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, JEO %B-2YQ
53 1
would conclude the answer is oddly going to be no.
Many 2
people, or at lesst some people have appeared to 3
describe the goal as it ought to be that.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, I would sa y it 5
wouldn't even help if you could do it in a day.
But in 6
practice you can't do it in i day, and it may be that 7
what they are doing is as much as can realistically be 8
done or wha tever and you want then to just do the best 9
they can.
10 But I think we ought to be clear that this 11 does not provide the same alarm function or safeguarding 12 function that it does on say reactors and their fuel 13 where the times are such that you in fact can alarm the 14 system.
15 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
Fine.
I have no 16 problem with that.
The problem where I have had a basic 17 disagreement I think with you, Vic, is that there has 18 been in impression, and I don't know whether from you or 19 from others, but the impression that the goal ought to 20 be that you could do that, and I just don't think you 21 can do that.
I don't think that you can expect the 22 system to be able to do that, to provide that timely 23 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Evan if it were 24 instantaneous it would hardly matter.
25 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
Right.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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54 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I as saying that we 2
ought to be clear that reactors are cafeguarded in a way 3
th a t these nuclear explosive materials are not.
Those 4
are inspected and, sure, we would like to have as much 5
information on it as possible, and if the guys were 6
there last week, then we know the stuf f was there last 7
week, but that is about it.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But, of course, the 9
opposite, or at least from my view, the opposite part of 10 my argument is, and it has nothing to do really at that 11 stage that the I%EA really calls into mind the other 12 intelligence information, but there are some countries 13 on whom we do have enough intelligenre information to 14 have a fairly confident appraisal of whether or not they 15 have done all the rest of this homework which would 16 enable them to do that rather transition.
There are 17 other countries in which we have no information, or 18 almost none.
So the world does separate it into 19 different 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The difficulty is that 21 the IAEA can't in any simple way incorporate that kind 22 of information.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Absolutely not.
It 24 can't. -- (Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And also while it is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
55 1
true that you have to have done all this background work 2
before it really is a few days to m ake a bomb ---
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is right.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
you are making 5
arrangements and you are agreeing to facilities being, 6
out in countries that subsequently may do all that extra 7
background work.
You have no control over that.
That 8
is not forbidden by any agreement.
9 So basically for the long haul you have to 10 assume that anyone that you provide this material to or 11 is allowed to have this material, or whatever, may in 12 th e f uture be in a position where they can make a bomb 13 in a few days.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am not really sure 15 what the future long haul part of the argument has to do 16 with it because it would seem to me that no matter what 17 kind of agreement or arrangement is set up there is 18 always that potential.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me just take this 20 one step further and tell you exactly what I have in 21 mind and why I press on til' peint is because when we 22 talk about safegaard'n
.' cities or plutonium or 23 highly enriched uranida or whatever, we bestow a kind of 24 legitimacy on that activity which it oughtn ' t to have, 25 or we give it a kin'd of safe character which it doesn't ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
56 1
have, and it is a dangerous activity.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What would you suggest to 3
improve it?
That is what I think we were trying to get 4
it.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, since we are 6
taking a transcript, I disagree with that, that we do 7
automatically bestow upon that ca ch et, 8
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I mean that has 9
been the effect of it.
You know, just take the word to "safeguariing," it is you are making safe.
You know, 11 you are protecting it.
That material is not protected 12 by this IAEA safeguards in the same way that a reactor 13 is protected.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEAR$Es That is correct, but it 15 is protected by the IAEA threat systam coupled with, at 16 least as f ar as the U. S. and I imagine some other 17 countries, their in telligence systems.
And I am not 18 sure whether one of the reasons that some people believe 19 that it was meant to be more than that is because some 20 of the people have raised the argument that here is what 21 it ought to be able to do and it doesn't do it.
So a 22 listener thinks, gee, it really ought to be able to do 23 that.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Let's see what we get out 25 of this discussion.
ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC,
% gns
57 1
(Laughter.)
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Frankly, I wouldn't 3
refer to the inspection system over plutonium and high 4
enriched uranium as saf eguarding.
Frankly, Blix wants 5
to get away from that title, too, from that nomenclature.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Are you recommending we 7
carry this back to State and recommend that they push it?
8 COMMISSIONER OILINSKY:
Yes.
9 (Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What is tha t, Vic?
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I said if you don't 12 like it I will propose something else.
13 (Laughter.)
14
. CHAIRMAN PALLADINO No.
I think it is a 15 point that is maybe worth writing up (Inaudible).
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think they basically 17 recognize this.
You know, it is the kind of thing where 18 I think everybody b a sicall y recognize it, but we have 19 ta lked about it a different way all these years and it 20 is awkvari to get away from that.
21 Our difficulty, it seems to ia, is not dealing i
22 with a disagreement but dealing with our agreement.
23 COMMISSIONEE AHEARNE:
Well, some people 24 recognize it, but I have continued to be astonished when l
25 we go to, for example, a Congressional hearing and hear l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 4@ VIR@ INIA A% $.W, WA$HIN@T@G0, @.@. 89@$0 ($@8) @@3-899@
58 1
how many Congressmen and Congresswomen express great 2
surprise that this system could be like this; amazement.
3 So I don't think everybody does recognize it.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I mean the 5
people who are closely involved.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, that includes 7
Congress.
8 Now seciously, Vic, this may be a point worth 9
drafting a proposal on.
10 Well, why don't we try to go on.
11 (Laughter.)
12 (Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
13 MR. DIRCKS:
That is what I tried to say in 14 the beginning 15 (Laughter.)
16 MR. DIRCKS:
--- that we are giving you a few 17 little tidbits here that you can make into a banquet.
18 (Laughter.)
19 MR. SHERR:
In terms of resources, the 20 technical objectives study, the funding of that was 240K 21 and the tonitoring of that project probably was 22 somewhere between one and two man-years over a ---
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Which project are you now 24 on?
25 MR. SHERR:
This is the technical objectives ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, (YSAgg@ma aHfL RM._ mn3MrmV621 b1c. R@ggs (gggLg)3.ggKg_
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59 1
study.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The what?
3 MR. SHERR:
The first bullet, the implications 4
of IAEA technical objectives.
5 The second area there is the design features 6
to f acilite IAEA safeguards.
Basically, as I indicated b
7 before, the t, rust of this study is to look at ways of 8
reducing the amount of resources the IAEA has to spend 9
to safeguard a facility or, conversely, to increase the 10 effectiveness for a given resource.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Are we involved in that?
12 MR. SHERR Ies.
13 14 We have conducted studies for LWRs, 15 reprocessing and MOX.
As I indicated earlier, we have it participated in the IAEA consultants meeting on 17 establishing an IAEA policy in design features.
That 18 was directed to LWRs.
The next one will be in September 19 dealing with reprocessing.
Ihe funding for that was 20 330K over a three-year time period, and again that is 21 probably somewhere between one and two man-years of 22 effort in terms of monitoring that work.
23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
m-
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60 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
16 17 MR. SHERE:
Quite frankly, I think for a long 18 time it was just a matter of they just did n' t have the 19 staff to get on top of it.
This is about the same time 20 that 21 COMMISSIONER CILINSKY Why?
Were they 22 objecting to it?
23 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
Right.
24 MR. SHERRs They didn't object to it.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But it says in Yay the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
~
9 61 1
Working Group agreed on the basis of recommendations by 2
State to forego the 3
MR. SHERE:
I think at that point in the 4
process they felt that a formalized criteria was not the 5
p311 tic Wir to 23.
I :In't tell you ---
6 COMMISSIONE2 GILINSKY:
I must say that I 7
think that at least a certain degree of formalization 8
would be useful and I would support that.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would say we should 10 go back and -- (Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
11 MR. SHERR:
Ihst is what I am saying.
This is 12 one of the ones that I think it should.be -- (Inaudible).
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
We ought to go back, 14 and since the Working Group has turned it down maybe we 15 might try to raise it on a higher level because 16 certainly, based on other information, tha t is clearly 17 something that -- (Inaudible).
18 MR. SHEA:
I think their feeling at that point fol,Eica\\
19 was that they were reluctant to pursue it for.-
- d l
20 reasons.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, it is ultimately 22 up to them, but it seems to me useful for us if we agree 23 to recommend to them that they ought to pursue it.
If 24 they decide in the end they don't want to, they won't.
25 MR. BURNETT:
And they didn't.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 16ue3reseusr666t Kwmvct t
62 1
MR. SHEA:
They didn't at that point. Th e y 2
th o ugh t they might learn more through other channels and 3
from that other information that has come in, but I 4
think it is right to pursue it further.
5 HR. SHERR:
I don 't know how we are 6
time-wise.
The last two areas here again were two areas 7
where they are not quite as pointed in terms of the 8
contributions to strengthening IAEA safeguards.
They 9
are basically by facilitating the implemen ta tion of 10 safeguards in the United States and helping the agency 11 to conserve their resources.
Doing so is one aspect of 12 it and also trying to be as cooperative as we possibly 13 can to set a good example for how it can be done right 14 and hopefully we won't be coun terproductive in tha t 15 regard.
16 17 18 19 20 l
21 22 23 But don't hold your breath.
24 (Laughter.)
25 COMMISSIONER OILINSKY:
You mentioned here, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
3B VI0i@nvin &fi r
63 1
2 3
4 5
6 MR. SHERE:
No.
7 MR. EURNETI:
No.
This was the management 8
study.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Do we have that report?
10 MR. SHERR Cooper, Lyb N and Ross.
11 12 13 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Have you sent that up 15 to the various offices?
16 MR. SHERRa The management report?
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
18 MR. SHERR:
Yes.
That was quite a while ago.
19 It was about a year and a half ago.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I remember Cooper and 21 Lyb 22 MR. SHERR:
This is an important area because 23 this is dealing with the agency 's personnel practices 24 s." i c h, like anywhere else, or it may be more sensitive 25 than is everywhere else.
1 ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGT@Nmn.CL f(@Pt13f6RU~%%5Mv6
64 1
2 3
4 5
Now subsequent to this the study has been 6
completed.
The agency has very carefully embraced the 7
recommendations.
We are now providing a cost 8
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Does that the --
9 (Inaudible).
10 MR. SHERR:
Well, you know, some of them are 11 very difficult to put in place, but we are providing 12 th rough a POTAS program a cost-free expert to keep on 13 top of implementing thoserecommhhations.
So they are 14 follow through ---
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
We are providing 16 someone to help 17 MR. BURNETT4 The United Sta tes and not the l
18 NRC.
19 MR. SHERR4 This is through the POTAS 20 program.
The POTAS program is funding an individual to 21 be working at the IAEA.
22 C0!MISSIONER AHEARNEs I thought if we had (Simultaneous 23 someone who was teslly an expert at 24 Conversations -- Inaudible).
i l
25 (Laughter.)
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
65 1
MR. RURNETT:
That is why I jumped in to 2
correct the record there.
3 MR. SHERR:
When I say'we'I am talking about 4
the U. S.
5 The next viewgraph, plasse.
6 COMMISSICNER AHEARhE:
I was going to say 7
where was he when -- (Insudible).
8 MR. SHERR:
In terms of what additional things 4
9 wa are going to be doing in the futuregis under 10 consideration.
11 As Mr. Dircks indicated in the beginning, we 12 are going to do a comprehensive review of what is going 13 on right now, identification of gaps and 14 tacommedstions.
I tnink in Emet what we are doing here 15 is going to tie into also the review of priorities in 16 terms of the Action Plan Working Group.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now should that be 18 viewed as an update of the original development of the 19 Action Plan list?
20 MR. SHERR:
The way I would look at this right 21 now is, you know, I don't know when we get all done we l
22 might find out that all the things tha t we could l
23 possibly be doing we are directng our ef f orts to and 1
24 there really aren't any other avenues that are left open 25 to pursue.
But this is kind of taking inventory of i
j ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
. &J Utrmrao nFIL EtWL WlnC%10rK6T@r#L E10. fM3R3 N#3 f.Tt3-@0@
66 1
wnere we tre at.
2 The difficult part from at least the staff's 3
point of view is identifying the baseline in terms of 4
what we are working against and in terms of where we 5
want to be.
And like the Action Plan is fairly 6
qualitative, and one of the questions is whether we want 7
to be less qualitative or not in defining that baseline.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is this a revision of a 9
former identification of ---
10 MR. BURNETT It is a second look and see.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
When did this new 12 initiative get started?
13 MR. SHERR:
We started it when we got the EDO 14 guidance I think in April and we started working on this.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
When you say we, you mean 16 the NRC or ---
17 MR. BURNETI:
Yes, and NMSS in particular.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Can you give me an 19 example of a gap?
l 20 MR. SHERR The gap that exists right now.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I mean this is so 22 general that I find it hard to ---
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I wasn't sure this was 24 even NRC.
You were talking about the Action Plan Review i
25 Group I geess.
l i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, f#@dJK@J3tl-7416L
67 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, is this 2
essentially the research contract?
3 MR. SHERR Yes.
4 MR. BURNETT:
Yes.
5 MR. SHEA:
Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So that it is listed on 7
page 5 of the paper.
8 HR. SHERR Yes, that is what we are talking 9
about.
10 Now the research contract I think, as Mr.
11 Dircks said in the beginning, is to support our 12 evaluation of this 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
This one?
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
So it is 2, 3 and 15 4.
16 MR. SHERR Yes.
17 MR. BURNETT:
And we are on line to have that 18 back to you by January
'83.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Will yourcontractor be 20 able to get access to enough information, that is the 21 sensitive information 22 COMMISSIONER SILINSKY:
Who is your contractor?
23 MR. SHERR Righ t now the we nave sent 24 basically proposals to Brookhaven N ational Laboratories 25 and Pacific Northwest Laboratory.
Now I don 't know ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, d@l MQWPMWMLJ1XLJ2KfiD0fffe\\?@RL FGEL FMRS af43&a GifM-2Y%1
68 1
which one.
We haven't received their proposals back yet 2
and we will review it on that basis.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY How much money are you 4
talking about?
5 MR. SHERR:
120K.
My general view is that 6
Brookhaven would know better all the U. S. activities 7
that are going on because of its relationship to the 8
POTAS program.
On the other hand, PNL is in a better 9
position to judge the sense of how well things are being 10 schieved.
So I don't know who is going to get the 11 contract, but I think in either case both of them are 12 a:tively involvei in supporting the I AE A saf eguard s, 13 things right now.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So it is about a 15 three-month stady?
16 MR. BURNETT:
Yes.
17 MB. SHERR:
The basic purpose is just to ---
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY I will tell you, both 19 of those contractors, and certainly Brookhaven, are 20 knowledgeable.
I mean, they have been involved.
But 21 they have also been caught up in that system.
And I 22 wonder whether it might not be helpful to get someone 23 else?
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What system?
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, the whole IAEA l
(
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 439 VtR@lNtA AV@. @.W., WGHIN@T@N. @.@. 2@@S4 (2@$ @@4 834@
69 1
system.
I mean they are heavily involved in the review 2
committees, their people travel to Vienna and have their Sacher barts 3
share of gr-E=r t urr and operas.
4 (Laughter.)
5 ER. SHERR:
But isn't that the dilemma?
I W
6 mean you don't/.to get novices involved either.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes, but there is just 8
a disinclination to really take a tough minded view of 9
the subject.
That is what I sense up at Brookhaven 10 anyway at least.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You mean they won't 12 identify gaps?
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
At least I have sensed 14 that in the past, let me put it that way.
That may be 15 an unfait coumant on their present outlook.
16 MR. BURNETT:
They might look at it as a 17 failure of the P3TAS system which they administer, or at 18 least part of.
It is possible.
l 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Or, conversely, they 20 might view it as an opportunity to just regurgitate the 21 problems they have trial to crise with the PDTAS group, 22 and neither one would really be very satisfactory.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It could be.
I just l
24 don't know.
25 MR. SHERR:
They might also view it as ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, AmJBua.Jreswu2WaEcwMvc
70 t
identifying areas for further research.
2
( La u gh ter. )
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
There has been a lot 4
of that over the years.
5 MR. SHERR:
What I am saying, you know, is I 6
think the Action Plan Working Group, in other words, we 7
haven't just stack with where we were be:suse we have 8
identified problems along the way that have basically 9
supplemented or replaced different things in the Action 10 Plan.
New actions have been identified.
Whether or 11 not, yot, know, this kind of taking a stop, look, see 12 comprehensive inventory of where things are at is going 13 to yield any new insights, but it is casically just time 14 to stop and take an inventory if there are additional 15 things we could be doing.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You have got a fairly 17 interesting phrase down here in your conclusion about 18 things that could be done.
You say " Limited Executive 19 Branch resources have resulted in little or not progress 20 in several specific areas."
21 MR. SHERE:
Well, I think tha t is righ t.
22 23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VPGINIA AVE., @N
71 1
2 3
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But that leads to the 4
question of do you see a major problem being that we 5
don't know what gaps there are and what weaknesses there 6
are, or do you see the major problem being that we 7
haven't iientified some thing that ought to be done and 8
there haven't been enough people or enough resources to 9
put on those problems?
10 MR. SHERR:
Historically we started off with 11 that Action Plan with all the actions with everything we 12 were going to do and we founi that we were falling 13 behind.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You found what?
15 MR. SHERR:
We found we were falling behind.
16 Then we went through a priority Action Plan that said, 17 okay, we know we can't do everything so le t's identif y 18 these priority activities that need to be done and we 19 found that we were falling behind.
20 CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Then it seems like this 21 recommendation is well, let's take another look to see 22 whether there are some more problems or different 23 priorities to attach.
But you are telling me that n
24 perhaps the major problem has been th a t we have unable 25 to put enough resources on ---
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
72 1
-- (Simultaneous Conversa tions -- Inaudible).
2 MR. SHERE:
I thin < ve ha ve, for all practical 3
purposes, we have met all our commitments.
4 COM ISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, does this thing 5
ha ve serious priority if it is State or does they throv 6
up these programs every now and then every time the 7
Congress 8
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Let's go back a little 9
bit in time.
There was an action group much before my 10 time, but let's say ---
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It started in
'77.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
'77.
Then somewhere 13 along the line, like a couple or three years ago, 14 everything dropped and th e re was really no Action Plan.
15 There was no Action Plan Working Group and nobody ever 16 met is my impression.
17 MR. SHERRs No, it was just coming 18
-- (Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Well, let me go back.
I 20 have a little bit of basis for what I say; quite a bit 21 of basis for what I say.
I found as a result of our 22 famous November 27th letter, I learned tha t this group 23 wasn't working.
They hadn't had a meeting in two years 24 is wha t I was told.
25 MR. BURNETT:
Oh, the ISG ---
ALDERSC.1 REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
73 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Joe, it is still a 2
group.
3 (Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
4 COMMISSIONER AHEAFNE:
That is the Interagency 5
Steering Group.
6 MR. BURNETT:
The rteering group, which is 7
above the working group had not met for years.
The 8
working group had plodded along.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
If there is not an 10 in ters gency group that is going o ersight to this, then 11 maybe that is part of the problem.
Something was 12 happening 13 MB. BURNETIs I think it would be that it was 14 de-emphasized.
That would be a f air sta tement.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What das that?
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
De-emphasized.
17 MP. BURNETI:
De-emphasized, and you would i
18 hive to 17 tee with tha t even though you went to the 19 meetings.
(Indicating Mr. Sherr.)
20 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, maybe the action 21 group was working there but there is nobody listed.
22 MR. SHEA:
You are really p t.c k in g up on when 23 they would say we can only do so much and we lack 24 resources and nobody was responding taking actions and 25 decisions.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, djQ Vl#@RI A AV@., @$ WA@HIN@T@N, @ C. MP,.34 (8@83 @@4-8845
9 74 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
So youraction group was 2
meeting.
I-will take that correction.
But then the 3
interagency group was not meeting.
I know one of these 4
committees was not meeting.
5 ER. BURNETT The steering group.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s All right, the steering 7
group.
The impression I got was that nobody was 8
listening and now because of the impetus of this letter 9
there was interest in getting things started again and 10 get a group that would begin to listen.
11 Now since that I hope has happened, has there 12 been any improvement in th e listening in the f ollow-on 13 group?
That was really what I was trying to get at.
I 14 wa s trying to put this in perspective ---
15 MR. SHERR4 I have got mixed signals.
On one 16 side in term of the Interagency Steering Group, all the 17 agencies that stayed inactive in particular I think are 18 trying to prepare proposals and justify the need for 19 more resources in their area which we would welcome.
I 20 think back in '83 or '81 we told them.
Around that same I
21 time period where things were dragging, I think we in 22 fact wrote State a letter ani said we think you need to 23 devote more effort in this area.
Now that is a signal 24 on one side.
I 25 The other side is that, and maybe it just has l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
75 1
to do with all the issues that have been going on over 2
the last few months, but the Artion Plan Working Group 3
has been meeting less frequently recen tly than we ever 4
did.
5 (Laughter.)
6 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
Do you have any clues as 7
to why that is happening?
Is it a result of the working 8
group not wishing to meet more often?
9 MR. SHERRs No.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is it f rustration on the 11 part of the working group saying there is no point in 12 meeting?
13 MR. DIRCKSs I think we are hearing the same 14 thing.
When we started of f somebody mentioned a number 15 of meetings, but the meetings have been going on for 16 years and they are regurgid ng many of the same problems 17 yaar in and year out and everyone has identified the 18 problems.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In other words, the 20 problems a re know4 It is the fact that the resources 21 don't get applied to the problems.
(Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
22 23 5R. DIRCKS.
And you wonder whether ---
24 MR. SHERRs I wouldn't read too much into that 25 either.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, d5 6) WYeDa SML RM_ M/NMOCTGofEL F6uSL PTd!5MG gR&a 2164@53
76 1
MR. SHEA:
I think the picture I get is that 2
they have slowly been able to get a few million dollars 3
a year in this technical support program and that is 4
useful.
They are building equipmen t and getting 5
hardw're.
They have been able to I guess encourage the a
6 IAEA to go in certain directions in a limited way to 7
opening 2p the IAEA, and that is more a function 8
probably of getting ---
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You said a few million 10 dollars a year.
The POTAS report here lists $19 11 million.
Does that overlap the p rogram ?
12 ER. SHEA:
That is right.
It is what, three 13 or four a year.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Five years I think that 15 was.
16 ER. SHEA:
But I think what they do is they 17 run up against political. problems within the IAEA or 18 within their perspective of how to handle this and I 19 think that is where things tend to bog down.
They also 20 lack the resources of people to push these issues in the 21 Executive Branch.
So not a whole lot gets done.
'4 hat 22 is accomplished seems to be very slow and over a long 23 period of time 24 MR. BURhETT4 But, Jim, this resources area, 25 they cry this a t every meeting.
But the truth of the ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 69% VIRGINIA AV@., $.W., t3A$0014T($9, @.G. 35@86 (@@$3_@@3.-890@__ ______
77 1
matter is they have the resources but they put this down 2
so far on the priority that there are no resources left 3
to work on it.
Whereas, we have it at a higher level.
4 At that last ISG meeting they tasked NMSS to do some 5
work that they didn't have time to do.
But in truth 6
what they are saying is that it doesn't ha ve a high 7
enough priority f or me, the State Department, to do it.
8 That is how I read it.
9 MR. SHEA:
Compared with the other things, 10 there are always the cables to get out and the immediate 11 support to the kosts abroad or the Secretary of State s
12 has gone up to testify.
So they are caught up with 13 that.
The other issue is they view it as a long-term irmprody 14 operation of Athe safeguards.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, they don't want 16 to make waves either.
17
-- (Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
18 MR. SHEA:
They just put it down as a lower 19 p rio ri ty.
20 MR. SHERR There is another aspect to that.
21 I can't remember exactly when this took place, but 22 within the 'last year, the chairmanship for the Technical 23 Support Co o rdin a tin g Committee transferred from DOE to 24 State.
Now the representatives on the Technical Support 25 Coordinating Committee overlap quite a bit with the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 1mDcsMvc
78 0
1 representatives on the A:thp Plan Working Group, and in 2
fact the State representative for those two is the same.
3 Now they have taken a much stronger hand and 4
they havebeenqaitevigilfnt in reviewing that thing 5
and asking much tougher questions than have ever been 6
asked before and they are ta<ing a pretty strong 7
management role in that chairmanship position.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Who is this now?
9 MR. SHERBs State.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And who is it?
11 MR. SHERR:
Al Sessoms.
He was one of the 12 gentlemen who briefed us.
But they are doing a good 13 job.
Maybe internally they are putting more attention 14 on getting a firm handle and taking over this new 15 responsibility in terms of technical support 16 coordinating, and that is also a constraint maybe that 17 is affecting their resources.
18 I don't know and I can tell you exactly why 19 these things, yoa know.
The meetings are scheduled and 20 then they get postponed because something came up.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
There is one thing that 22 you said that I would like to clear up that bothered me 23 a little bit.
You said this steering group is 24 preoccupied with other things and they give this lower 25 priority.
Is the steering group not steering?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, A3f0LMf.Mf3G /MLJU2LJE@homRTBRL n.c. Mar 6pe et 61Ro.49m
79 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I thought it was that 2
the State Department gives this a lower priority when it 3
comes time to allocate resources.
4 MR. SHERR I have never been told that 5
officially.
It is just t h at ---
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Where does this steering 7
group fit into the picture?
Isn't it supposed to be the 8
arm that brings it to the attention of State and all the 9
other bodias what they ought to be doing?
10 MR. SHERR That that right.
11 MR. SHEA:
Spacifi ally in this area for 12 safeguards.
It isn't a group that handles other things, 13 just safeguards ---
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Are they not giving it 15 consideration to the suggestad improvements for IAEA 16 safeguards?
17 MR. BURNETT:
That is a hard one to answer.
18 They sit around and we talk about it.
19 MR. DISCKS But you have been talking about 20 it for years.
They know the problems.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It is too awkward to 22 deal with them.
23 MR. DIRCKS:
And it is very awkward to deal 24 with them.
You are dealing with an international 25 organization.
The limit of our nation, we have a role, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
$3 VIR@lNIA AVL $.W., WC@HIN@T@N, @.@. M4 (898) W4 8@4@
80 1
but when you deal with an international organization I 2
think our role becomes more indirect.
There is not a 3
direct amount of pressure we can bring on them.
Ther 4
know it.
State knows it.
We have had them here 5
before.
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 COMMISSIONER AHE ARNE:
Well, that is one way 14 of putting it.
Another way of putting it is he said 15 that one should be realistic in how far we can go.
16 ER. DIRCKS:
Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
18 19 20 21 22 CHAIRMAN PALLADIFO:
And that was part of the 23 thrust of the revitalized steering group.
It was 24 supposed to identify those areas where there is a payoff.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, they must be ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
81 1
affected by the fact they don't have an Assistant 2
Sa c r eta ry 3
MR. BURNETI:
They are.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY And Kennedy has got 5
two jobs.
6 MR. BURNETTs Th e people that are occupying 7
those positions are moving cautiously.
8 MR. SHEAa And they are losing a key person.
9 John Boright has been a key person in the safeguards 10 efforts.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO.
Where is he going?
12 MR. SHEA:
He is going to be the Science 13 Counselor in Paris.
He is in language training now.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINC:
Where is he going?
15 MR. SHEA:
Paris to be the Science Counselor.
16 So they are losing a key person and they will have to 17 try and fill in.
State has a problem because they find 18 it difficult to bring in non-Foreign Service people into 19 the State Departnent and to fight that administrative 20 problem.
They may have to accept a Foreign Service i
21 officer who will have have to get up to speed on all i
22 these issues and they have limited slots.
And they and ACDAhafvery similar problems wi th resources.
23 I
24 So resources is a key problem which tends to 25 reduce it in priority because they have so many other i
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
82 1
things to deal with and the predilection is to deal with 2
it informally and quietly.
3 MR. DIRCKS:
Well, the predilection is to ha ve 4
more meetings and more committees, but tha t doesn 't 5
reslly 6
CHAIRMAN PALLADINC:
Well, I was trying to get 7
to the point where we might identif y rertain key steps B
that you really think we ought to be taking and getting 9
se up to speed on it.
10 11 MR. BURNETT:
Let me give you a candidate for 12 that then.
We have been told for years and years, or we 13 have been telling them, that we need more information.
14 So this body decided to ask NMSS to put together the 15 information that we know on a country.
We did that.
16 CHAIRM AN PALLADINO:
Information on what?
17 MR. SURNETT:
That we know about countries.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
For each country.
19 MR. BURNETT:
Then it was decided and the 20 Commission agreed that we would send this over to the 21 State Depa rtment to ha ve it looked at to fill in the 22 esps.
This is a candidate for what you are talking 23 about.
Four now sit over there, one approaching nine 24 months.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That is a decent period.
ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINlA AVLL MM-
83 1
MR. BURNETTa Now in February you got told 2
that somebody read the report from NMSS ra ther than NRC 3
and said that it wa s horribly lacking.
We said fine, 4
tell us what it is lacking and we will incorporate it.
5 Nothing.
They don't have the resources to tell us what 6
is lackins.
7 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
But, Bob, there are two 8
other pieces that you have to put into that picture.
9 The first is that even if they told us what was lacking, 10 that doens't necessarily address the issue here of what 11 sort of actions should we take to improve safeguards.
12 MR. BURNETT Agreed.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Th e second, as I think 14 we all recognize, is there see certain types of 15 information which aren't in those.
16 MR. BURNETTa Yes, and that is made clear.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I know.
So it isn't as 18 though here is everything that the NRC knows ---
19 MR. BURNETT No and now tell us 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
21 what else might be th e re.
It is here is everything that 22 the NRC knows minus ---
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY But the point remains 24 they just ignored the whole thing.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What I was trying to get ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
84 1
at is pi: King one or two important areas where we might 2
be able to make an improvement in the safeguards and see 3
if we might not be able to 4
get some ---
5 MR. EURNETIa Well, also the one that was 6
discussed earlier about the criteria on what would be 7
f o rwarded to the ---
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think that is ---
9 HR. BURNETT:
I think we all agree that that 10 one could move.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, or should.
12 MR. BURNETT But that one is hung up 13 politically and the other one is huns up resource-wise.
14 COMEISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, but I think that, 15 for example, that ona.
I would suggast on the resources 16 if you can identify a few of the areas where you feel 17 are most critical f or resour es to be a pplied, that is 18 another ---
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That is the kind of thing 20 I was thi.iking of.
21 COM!ICSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
l 22 CHAIRdAN PALLADINO:
Because Kennedy did make l
23 I thought a significant ~ commitment to try to work to l
l 24 improve the IAEA safeguards and I would like to take him 25 up on that in sote fashion and that might te a good way i
i KDERSoN RE?oRTING COMPANY,INC, I
85 1
to do it.
2 MR. B3 3 N ETI:
I don't mean to suggest that 3
they aren't.
I think that they are in their own way.
(Simultaneous Conversations -- Inaudible).
4 5
MR. BURNETT Well, seriously they are.
They 6
are working through infornal channels 7
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I am not going to try to 8
tell him how to accomplish it, but if he can focus on 9
one or two.
Let's give it a try.
10 I will get together with you.
11 MR. SHEA:
One thing in the resource area, if 12 ve approach it, and I guess we will in part by saying 13 that we think there needs to be more Executive Branch fhey may well come back, as 14 resources in these areas) f 15 they have to us at the staff level and say, well, we 16 would like to see more NRC resources put into these 17 areas.
One thing they mentioned is more travel to 18 Vienna to help upgrade the IAEA.
The other is to l
t 19 station a person in Vienna using an NRC slot if possible.
l 20 So those are two specifics that they keep 21 bringing 2p.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And rotate that 23 among 24 (Laughter.)
l 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Are we eligible for i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
86 1
language training?
2 (Laughter.)
3 CHAIRMAN PALLA0:30:
And with the language you 4
have to absorb a certain amount of the culture.
5 (Laughter.)
6 COMMISSIONER ARIARNE:
To just test out the 7
training progras.
8 (Laughter.)
9 CHAIPMAN PALLADINO:
Ted, let's see, can we 10 finish up.
11 MR. SHERR Given the tangent we went off cn 12 last time, I don't know I want to mention this or not.
13
( La ugh te r. )
14 MR. SHERR:
But we have got a number of 15 activities related to a follow-on to the Technical 16 Objective Study.
I won't take them in the order of what 17 I have listed here.
18 One of the things that we came up with was 19 basically given the resource technology and legal 20 restraints that are on the agency, you know, at best l
21 those technical objectives that exist today are 22 long-term propositions, you know, like may be a 20-year 23 time frame if everything went right.
24 The question is what kind of objectives should 25 we be seeking in the near term and the intermediate term ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,
o 87 1
if in fact tnose see appropriate long-term objectives?
2 There are a lot of different cuts to that thing.
You 3
can talk sbout sensitivity in countries, you can talk 4
about the complexities of ways of stealing material and 5
you talk about you should be concerned for-certain 6
facility types and not for others.
Essi:sily the 7
follow-on here would take a look at some of those 6
alterna tive things.
9 10 11 12 13 Another thing that is related to this that is 14 going on_right now is looking at again safeguards 15 approaches and inspection activities for particular 16 facility types which is related to the objectives I 17 think in the same sense that Ken described it a little 18 while ago.
19 20 21 22 23 l
24 l
l 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l
I
- e 88 e
1 2
3 One of the f ollow-on things is to take a look 4
at how the inspection approach was the basis for 5
estimating the Technical Objective Study and how that 6
differs from what the agency does in practice as a basis 7
for explaining that and providing better perspective.
8 Along the same lines we are going to look at 9
what actually the agency does in the United States in to terms of applying safeguards at U.
S.
facilities and 11 jast 13 0 '< at it sni see if the same methodologies in 12 terms of assessing the level of effectiveness of that 13 safeguards from a technical point of view as it is 14 applied in the United States, whether that is 15 representative of what they do in the world or not and 16 we can't generally judge.
17 M3. BURNETI:
But it is an opportunity.
It is 18 a window on how they operate.
19 HR. SHERRs The other open area in terms of 20 the Technical Objective Study was that basically looked 21 at what was needed by a facility type.
It didn't really 22 focus on by country in terms of how that would, and the 23 follow-on study is looking at the resource implications 24 like on a country basis.
Its presentation is 25 hypotheti:al.
In fact, if fuel cycle is to be l
ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY. INC, l
l AMe YEf4Gmo oYft ma WARHMT@c& @,@. f@5384 (M8D @@4-3849
Q O
89 1
considered, it would be representative of (
)
2 countries in sitaations.
pcoVER.
3 Also, we are looking at supporting the egr:25r 4
ppogram.
We did put in the FY-84 submission some funds 5
to support that in that time frame.
In the concurrence Atc0Mk 6
chain is an N"SS assessmen t of th e. w program.
7 Basically there is a broad assessment going on right 8
now.
The GAO is reviewing it and at the same time the 9
IAEA has a revied meeting for this project srheduled in to the last part of this month.
But basically it is not a 11 panacea.
On the other hand, it could it fact result in 12 inspector savings in terms of need site inspectors ---
(Simultaneous 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.
14 Conversations -- Inaudible).
15 MR. SHERR
--- and especially at unloading 16 reactors, critical assemblies and storage locations that 17 don't have a lot of turnover.
18 MR. BURNETI:
What the Commission is probably 19 not aware of is that the staf f has been supporting pfcov6K
- ggcovcg, 20 tieee*W for several years and there are working p terminalsinAmerica[atlicensedfacilitiesthat we 21 22 sided in the installation of.
MIT is one of them.
1*RAMSEAVfK 23 MR. SHERR:
Now :::n_;rfr-really isn't an 24 inernational safeguards project, but because it is 25 always mixed up and confused with the international ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
o 90 1
safeguards I perpetuated that confusion by included it 2
here.
It is basically a physical security matter in 3
terms of providing communication at sea, continuous 4
communication which, if the appropriate political 5
arrangements are made, would provide a response if the 6
signal that says everything is okay quit coming.
7 MR. BURNETT.
It monitors the integrity of a 8
shipping cask while on the high seas on very real time 9
basis.
10 MR. SHERR:
We participated in an earlier 11 phase of this thing in looking at the more conceptual 12 thing and ACDA recently requested that we participate in 13 the next phase which is a joint U.S./ Japanese test of 14 this thing and we have committed $50,000 to participate 15 in that test and review the results.
16 HR. BURNETT In '80 ve committed $70,000 in 17 the early phssas of that, too -- (Inaudible).
18 MR. SHERRs Another matter, and again this is 19 more in tarms of our operational domestic agency 20 context, one of the important things that the agency 21 focused on this year was the reporting of export / imports 22 and getting this unified so that they could make a match 23 between transfers between countries.
Now we are in the 24 process of developing tha rula changes and we will be 25 coming to you with a proposed rule for those changes ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 6
i 91 1
which would enable us to satisfy that.
2 Finally, the agency throagh the POTAS program 3
has requested that they use some U.
S.
facilities to 4
test some of the new equipment and sa f eg ua rd s 5
approaches.
We have done this in the past to facilitate 6
if it is a reactor of getting NRR's okay and dealing 7
with the licensee so that everybody anderstands what is 8
happening.
9 Tha t is kind of in terms of what we are 10 planning right now.
As was mentioned earlier, the 11 Action Plan Working Group, if we meet again, is 12 carrently reviewing the priority things, and when we get 13 done with that priority review it may turn out there are 14 some additional activities we are involved in, as well 15 as when we complete the comprehensive review in Janaury 16 it may be a basis for additional activities as well.
17 That is it.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
All right, thank you.
i 19 Any further questions?
l 20 (No response.)
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, we thank you very i
22 much.
l 23 We will stand adjourned.
I l
24 (Whereupon, at 4:20 p.m.,
the meeting 25 adjourned.)
ALCERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC,
1
\\
ks s
.IUC"".2.A R r.r h 1 9 E C M!#*3 5C OI This is
- es.Mif7 that the. attachec preceecing: befers the COMMTSSION MEETING is the catter.cf:. Closed Meeting - Exemption No. 1 - Briefing on Efforts to Improve IAEA Safeguards Cara of Freceecing:
June 2, 1982 OcCk2C Uta:Lher:
?7.aC4 of Prcceecing:
Washington, D.C.
wore held as hereis appears, are thah this is the cri41:21 :: scsc:-i thersef fc:- the file of the C =::iscice.
l Mary C. Simons Cfficial Eepertar C T ;ec)
/
A fri M r
Officizi Repceter (514:scure)
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