ML20062B791
| ML20062B791 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 07/23/1982 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8208050043 | |
| Download: ML20062B791 (191) | |
Text
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NCCII.AR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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Ja COMMISSION MEETING In de.'%=::er cf:
PUBLIC MEETING BUDGET BRIEFING i
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DATE:
July 23, 1982 PAGES:
1 - 173 AT:
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cc: OPS File From: SECY OPS Branch 6
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
3 BUDGET BRIEFING 4
PUBLIC HEETING 5
6 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Room 1130 7
1717 H Street, N.
W.
Washington, D. C.
8 Friday, July 23, 1982 9
10 The Commission met, purs ua n t to notice, a t 11 10:00 a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 NUNZIO PLALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission YICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 14 JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 15 JANES ASSELSTINE, Commissioner 16 STAFF AND PRESENTsRS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABLE:
17 J. O 'REILLY R. DeYOUNG 18 D. ROSS L. BARRY 19 W.
DIRCKS H. DENTON 20 J. DAVIS J.
EVANS 21 AUDIENCE SPEAKERS 22 P.
NORRY 23 F.
GILLESPIE J. FUCHES
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E. TRINER 24 L. DONNELLY 25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINf A AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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DISCLAIMER
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This is an ' unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United, States nuclear Regulatory Commission held on Juiv 2'3, 1982 in the Commission's offices at 1717 H Street, it. W., Wasnington, D. C.
The hieeting was open to pubif e attendance and observation.
Tnis transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the forinal or infomal record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in athis. transcript do not necessarily reflect final deteminations or beliefs.
14o pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in.
I any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument
' contained herein, exe.ept as the Commissic'n may auth'orize.
9 e
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2B9CEED1E95 2
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Good morning, ladies and 3
gentiemen.
4 The purpose of this morning's mee ting is to 5
review and discuss the NRC budget estimates for fiscal 8
years 1982 through 1985.
7 The President's reorganization plan of 1980 8
requires tha t the Chairman develop and present to the 9
Commission the budget estimates for the agency for 10 Commissioner comment, input and eventual action.
11 On July 16th I forwarded to the Commission the 12 fiscal year '84 and '85 estimates, accompanied by 13 current plans for the use of fiscal year
'8 2 and '83
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14 resources as well.
These estimates were developed with l
15 the assistance of the EDO staff and the Office of Policy 16 Evaluation.
The process included a series of budget 17 preparation meetings with the EDO and other agency 18 members.
This is the budget proposal from which the 19 Commission must develop its Commission budget for 20 submittal onward.
21 During the past week I have met individually 22 with my follow Commissioners to discuss the highlights 23 of the budget estimates and to obtain their comments, 24 questions and advice.
Several questions have been 25 raised in the course of the conversations and the 1
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1 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 2KfdfTEC9VEYO i
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1 process of developing answers is still underway.
I
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2 expect that this morning's discussion vill touch on many 3
of these questions.
4 I wish to note that this year's budget 5
preparation and approval process is being carried out in 6
accordance with the court decision regarding the conduct 7
of Commissi'on consideration of budget matters.
Copies 8
of the material I am about to discuss have been made 9
available to members of the public who are here this 10 morning so as to f acilitate their observation of the 11 discussion.
12 Before taking up the budget estimates in 13 detail, I should like to highlight some of th e i
14 observations that underlie them.
15 A key resource problem facing NBC is to match 16 the size, qualification and locations of the staff to 17 meet our future needs.
Resources must be provided to 18 meet our policy and planning guidance objectives and for 19 the new Office of Investigations and expanded regional 20 activi ties.
We need to develop and implement a plan for 21 effective use of resources for quality assurance.
A 22 decrease in licensing workload would be accompanied by 23 staff reductions in that area and should pe rmit 24 increased effort for major issues and completion of 25 licen si ng actions on a timely schedule.
ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIAGINIA AVE' S.W.;WASHINGTCN. D.C.'20004 (202) 554-2345'
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Now the budget is based on no increases in 2
personnel in fiscal 1983 and no increases in 1984 with a
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3 slight drop-off in 1985.
The reason that our workload 4
should be leveling off, we have been increasing steadily 5
since 1977 and many of those items that led to the 6
increase resulted from TMI actions, but it does not 7
appear to me that we should be increasing further, at 8
least not under present circumstances.
9 It is with the considerations in mind as well 10 as others that I proposed the target figures that are in 11 the handouts and would like to discuss now.
12 I will be happy to have Commission comments 13 and questions as we go along, which suggests that 1
14 detailed questions for the various offices be grouped 15 under the discussion of those of fices, but we will 18 entertain questions at any time.
17 Now Bill Dircks, the major program offico 18 directors and other staff are here to respond to points 19 tha t ma y arise.
20 So I pro pose then to go to charts that we have l
21 prepared, and I believe all the Commissioners should 22 have copies.
23 (Slide presentation.)
24 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
If I may go to the next 25 slide, please, which is called slide No.
1.
This slide
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l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIAGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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1 shows the agency's total. funding broken down by major 2
function.
It also shows the total number of staff years
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3 for fiscal '82 through
'85.
4 The resources increase slightly in fiscal '83 5
to $479.5 million, in '84 to $498 million and $484 6
million in
'85.
7 The staffing levels continue to be at the 8
level that OMB has proposed for us in '83 and through 9
'84 and then it shows a slight drop in
'84.
to COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Can I ask a question?
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Sure.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
At the bottom, footnote 13 2, is tha t '837 t
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Yes.
I didn 't ca tch all 15 the typ o s.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Can someone summarize 17 where we are in the Congress with respect to any FY-83
evels?
1 18 19 MR. BARRY:
We don 't have any word as yet from 20 the Congress in either dollars or people.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, let's see, there 22 is a House-passed mark on
'83, an authorization and 23 there is a Senate-passed mark in ' 83, an au thoriza tion,
24 and it is possible that the Conf erence might have 25 addressed the total.
So can anybody summarize what ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC.
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1 those numbers are?
2 MR. BARRY:
Well, it is my understanding that 3
the House conferee mark is about $513 million for fiscal 4
year
'83.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The conferee mark?
6 HR. BARRY:
The conferee mark.
On the 7
appropriations side we have no indication on the mark as 8
yet.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now in the absence of 10 an appropriation bill, what would the number be?
11 MR. BARRY:
In the absence of an appropriation 12 bill we would probably be under a continuing resolution 13 which means that our level of spending would b'e the same i
14 a s FY-82, which would be $465.7 million.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now the staff years are 16 not a Congressional determination; is that correct?
17 HR. BARRY:
That is correct, sir.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But there is embedded 19 in the approved budget, for example, in '74 the approved I
20 dollars, and there must be embedded in the 479.5 an l
21 assumption on salaries and benefits.
So to some extent, l
l 22 and obviously depending upon hiring ra te s, re tire me n t l
23 rates and so forth, the dollars will'be adjusted 24 somewhat, but what are the approximate staff year 25 estimates embedded in the 479.57 l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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1 MR. BARRY:
The approximate, as is shown here, 2
would be 3,303 FTE's for permanent staff and an 3
additional FTE's for other than full-time permanent, 4
which includes part-time permanents, temporaries, 5
consultants, et cetera.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is the same true at the 7
474 as at 3,324?
8 MR. BARRY:
That should be 3,325, but yes, and 9
123 for the for the full-time permanen'ts build up in the 10 actual dolla r cost.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now the recent 12 requirement for the summer people to be cut back, that 13 is because of problems in '82 to meet the 3,325?
14 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What did that say, by 16 the way?
17 MR. BARRY:
That says that we are getting 18 close to exceeding o ur FTE ceiling in '82 ss a 19 combination of both permanents and other than full-time 20 permanents.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs What kid letting 22 summer students go early save?
23 MR. BARRY
.How many does it save?
24 MS. NORRY:
It was six years.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And how many summer ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, T&aS4tL95k%3
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students were involved?
2 MS. NORRY:
There were close to 200.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How many weeks early 4
were they lot go?
5 MS. NORRY:
Three weeks.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Was this in order to 7
f all under a dollar problem or was it to meet a ---
8 MR. BARRY:
We do not have a dollar problem.
9 It is an FTE OMB limitation.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is an OMB 11 limitation.
12 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Did we request OMB to
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14 allow us to have that six staff year overage?
15 MR. DIRCKS:
No.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I see.
17 CHAIRMAN PAL 1ADINO:
That~doesn't solve the 18 entire overage problem, but we did not ask for it.
i 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I was just curious that 20 ve have let the 200 people go three weeks early but we 21 didn't ask for a reclama of th e six staff years.
22 HR. DIRCKS:
We are doing a lot of things ' o 23 mee t that ceiling.
We are limiting the inflow of 24 personnel, we are delaying appointment dates, we have 25 f rozen other appointments and we have not asked for l
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTONc D.C. 20024 (SB@ 903-884@ '
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relief on any one of those appointment dates.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Since we didn't ask for 3
any waiver, I conclude you have also reached the 4
conclusion that none of this has any significant 5
detrimental impact on the agency?
6 HR. DIRCKS:
Significant detrimental impact?
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
8 MR. DIRCKS:
No, I don't think it has a 9
significant de trimen tal impact.
10 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
Similarly on the 3,303, 11 that is also an OMB imposed limitation; is that correct?
12 HR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And is there any OMB
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14 recommended FY - 8 4 level dollars?
15 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
16 MR. BARRY:
OMB provided as a target $499 17 million.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So this is coming in at 19 the OMB target of $499 million.
20 MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Did they provide a 22 target on staff years?
23 MR. BARRY:
Yes, 3,303.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
No, for '847 25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
For '84?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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MR. BARRY:
Yes, 3,303 permanents.
I am sorry.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
3,172.
T' 3
MR. BARRY:
3,172, yes.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So we are coming in at 5
the dollar level that OMB recommended in '84 but 6
significantly above the people level in '84 7
MR. BARRY:
That is correct.
We are coming in 8
at approximately 131 over their target.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I should point out even 10 to meet the 3,300 is going to require careful planning 11 because I expect what the present level of employment 12 tha t will st art the year with about 3,400 p eo ple.
If we 13 reduce our force on a straightline basis, we would have 14 to go under 3,300 if we didn't do it promptly.
15 MR. BARRY:
That is correct.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Do you have an OMB mark 17 for '857 18 MR. BARRY:
We do.
We have.a mark for 19 dollars, which is a target of $450 million.
We do not 20 have a target for staff years.
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21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It appears that what we 22 are doing is we are adhering rigorously to the OMB 23 dollar limit for
'84, significantly going above the 24 dollar level for '85 and the people level for
'84, but 25 also rigorously adhering to the OMB people level for '82 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.; WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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and
'83.
Could you say a few words about why some you 2
obviously seem to believe are inviolate and others are 3
not?
4 MR. DIRCKSa Well, in '82 I think we are 5
complying with the dollar limitations and we are trying 6
to comp 1y with the people limita tions.
'82 is the 7
fiscal year that we are operating in.
In '83 it is 8
somewhat easier to deal with dollar limitations because 9
ve can make adjustments in programming.
With people to limitations, as you know, they are less mobile thun 11 dollars.
So we are making an appeal I think to OMB to 12 go above the FTE limitation in '84 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa What is the current t '
14 staff level?
15 HR. DIRCKS4 The current staff level onboard 16 is 3,365.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Permanent.
18 MR. DIRCKS:
And we have 45 offers out.
Yes.
19 COMMISSIONER AREARNE Offers and accepted or 20 just offers?
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21 MR. DENTON Offers and commitments I think.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So you total then is a 23 little over 3,400 onboard and accepted offers.
24 ER. DIRCKS:
That is right.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 But we have to live both ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. O.C.-20024 (202) 554 2345
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within the dollars and we are trying also to live within 2
the FTE.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Did we think it was 4
okay to go above or what?
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What, in dollars?
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY In people.
7 MR. DIRCKS:
It is alvars difficult.when your 8
ceiling = are going down.
We expected the attrition rate 9
to be higher than it was and it didn't pan out that 10 way.
People were not leaving the agency.
In the FTE 11 limitation ---
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COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Bill, would you speak 13 up.
I can't hear you.
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14 MR. DIRCKS:
I said when your budgets are 15 going down then you always lose a lot of flexibility.
16 We expected the attrition rate to be higher than it was 17 and the attrition just did not occur.
I think that is a 18 product of the economic conditions of the time, that 19 people were not leaving us to take other jobs.
They had 20 traditionally left in much larger numbers.
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21 So I think the combination of getting the 22 ceiling pushed down and losing a lot of attrition rate 23 just forced us into this condition.
So as a result we 24 are looking toward short-term measures to try to star 25 within the '82 ceiling, and in '83 we will look at other ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 4@@ VIR@lNIA AR tim 1 MC#D0l[MTCoMMA MKoP741MW i
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measures.
In '83 we will look toward imposing 2
limitations on the regional offices in their flexibility 3
to hire outside the agency.
We are trying to get. people i
4 to hire within the agency.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Now the Chairman 6
talked about staff reductions.
I hope as we go through 7
here we can indicate where, if anywhere, those will take 8
place.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, I have asked the 10 EDO to develop a staffing plan to try to smooth out our 11 effort's so that we know what we have to do and how we 12 are going to try to approach it.
I don't think we have 13 a definite plan yet.
f 14 HR. DIRCKS:
You gave us until I think 15 September to develop the plan and you should have it in 16 earlier than September.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I guess I would like 18 to have some sense as to which areas are considered 19 candidates for staff reduction and why we got into that 20 situation.
l 21 MR. BARRY:
I think a.partjal answer, to 22 clarify your question a littic bit s is that in terms of l
23 FTE 's, how many of the staff we will be permitted to 24 have, that is spelled out here in the budget.
But what 25 the measure of our problem is going to be from a people
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, i
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s ta nd point to sustain those TTE's is the problem we 2
face, and that is what we are trying to elucidate in the 3
staffing plan that the Chairman has asked us to 4
produce.
Until we get a first cut at it here in another 5
three weeks, that is a question that would be very 6
difficult for us to answer in terms of ---
7 NR. DIRCKS:
We are dealing in 30 or 40 8
positions in '82 over what we regard as the ceiling.
We 9
vere concerned about filling vacancies and we had a very 10 strong campaign on recruiting last year and it 11 succeeded.
The attrition rate I have already 12 mentioned.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Let's see, how long l
14 has that been down?
15 HR. DIRCKSa The attrition rate?
I guess it 16 has been down for the past several months.
The third 17 f actor is that in certain critical areas we were told to
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18 let people hire over ceiling.
In the Clinch River area l
19 and in the safety technology area ve gave permission f or 20 offices to proceed above ceiling and they did.
So when
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21 rou allow people to go over ceiling, you ha ve a lower 22 attrition rate and you have a vigorous recruiting 23 campaign, I think you just build in that you are going 24 to have a position control problem.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think it is not much ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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over seven or eight months ago when we sat down and 2
discussed our personnel situatian.
I was told well, we 3
have characteristically always had a hundred unfilled 4
positions, and I said, well, there is no sense in having 5
personnel targets and then not living up to them.
So I 6
encouraged a recruiting campaign to fill those hundred 7
slots, and I said, well, where we have peak workloads 8
tha t we have to handle, since we have these hundred 9
slots, let's authorize a little bit of overhire and then 10 we can adjust them later.
11 What I didn't expect was the tremendous 12 success and I don't think we were aware of the 13 tremendous success we were having in recruiting coupled 14 with the attrition to catch it in time.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs What is the normal 16 attrition rate?
17 HR. BARRY:
You correct me, but in the past it 18 has been as high is 17 percent.
It is now running four 19 or five percent?
20 HS. NORRY4 It is down about four or five, yes.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What was it last year?
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What was it last year, 23 Pat?
24
- 55. NORRY:
It ran between 12 and 17 percent.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Last year?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 6@ LMB 0lMHQ JKfR Al#Eff l
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MR. BARRY:
Last year.
2 ES. NORRY:
Last year.
You are talking about 3
19817 4
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
1981.
5 MR. BARRY:
So it has drastically reduced.
8 HS. NORRY:
Starting in about January it began 7
to go down.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY This January?
9 HS. NORRY:
Of this year.
10 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYa Were we still making 11 commitments as f ar as hiring people and making offers at 12 that point?
13 NR. BARRY:
Yes.
14 MR. DIRCKSa I think we were again trying to 15 fill positions where the critical need occurred.
There 16 was critical need in the whole area of safety technology 17 and we were recruiting in that area.
The problem is 18 that on a down swing you don't always attrit people in 19 areas where you would like to see people get out of and 20 people just weren't leaving'in certain other areas.
21 I don't think we have an overwhelmingly 22 catastrophic problem here.
I think it is the position 23 of management that we can our way out of it.
24 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Given the fairly i
25 limited nature of the problem and these som ewhat l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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unforeseen circumstances, why shouldn't we ask OMB for 2
relief for '82 to the extent tha t we are ta lkin g about a 3
f airly limited number of positions?
4 HR. DIRCKS:
We haven't formally asked OMB.
I 5
think the FTE control is a recent OMB device.
What 6
happens if you drift over the FTC ve don't know.
I 7
gather some agencies have gone over and OHB sends a 8
letter of admonishment, whatever that means.
9 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, I think Jim's 10 suggestion and my earlier suggestion was not that we 11 just drift over but that we ask for a vaiver to go over.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think that might be a 13 good move because I don't think we are going to get down 14 to 3,334.
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15 HR. BARRY:
We can.
16 COHNISSIONER ROBERTS Do other agencies do 17 that?
18 HR. DIRCKS:
I believe they have asked for 19 relief and I don't think relief has been given.
I think' 20 some agencies go over the FTE.
We have discussed this 21 informally with the Program Division over there and the 22 result was that if you go over we vill let you know.
23 Well, we can ask.
I think the reason why they want to 24 give you ---
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
There is a problem in ALDERSON REPCATING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASH!NGTCN, O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 -
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asking if you get a "No" answer.
I have been through 2
this at the universities.
I can 't translate that 3
e xpe ri.e nce to here.
I don't know hov OMB vorks.
There 4
if you ask for overage, the answer was generally no, but 5
I noticed that those that vent over had a." tut-tut" kind 6
of response.
If you have a "No" then you have a focus 7
by the supervising people to make sure you comply.
8 HR. DIRCKS:
I think what they are interested 9
in is have we made good faith efforts to stay within the 10 ceiling.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
'I think you can get a 12 hundred letters that will say that you did.
13 (Laughter.)
(
14 MR. DIRCKS:
Well, okay, but I don't think you 15 can then carry on business as usual.
They will van t to 16 see if we have taken steps, and I think we have taken 17 steps.
I think that will be taken into consideration.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How does the control 19 process work?
Who keeps an eye on that number as people 20 are hired and leave?
21 MR. DIRCKS:
Pat can correct "me, but we submit 22 reports to the Office of Personnel Managment 23 COMNISSIONER GILINSKY No, I mean within the 24 agency.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Internally.
That is one ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, J NRa SM LJB52.32MMMhuSE3J61RM185F6L%M-fFm
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1 of the hardest things to do, but go ahead.
2 Pat, can you respond?
Did you hear the 3
question?
4 MR. DIRCKS:
How do we control FTE's?
5 MS. NORRY:
Well, the FTE 's a re controlled 6
through a process of keeping track of the current 7
onboard account, the projected onboard, the offers that 8,are out and projects are made on a monthly basis.
We 9
are now making them more frequently because we are 10 getting closer to the end of the year.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So what are our 12 projections that we have been making over the past six 13 months?
We must have realized that we were going over.
14 MS. NORRY:
The projections have changed, 15 depending upon the kinds of actions that ve have taken 16 to restrict hiring and how tightly we have wound down on 17 the possibility of hiring.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY What does that mean?
l 19 MS. NORRY:
What that means is that we have 20 extremely tightened the staffing process now.
There is
~
21 a freeze on.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSK!:
But what were your 23 projections all along?
Vere you projecting that we were 24 going to go over?
25 MS. NORRY:
The projection of going ever
~
l l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W; WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024(202) 554 2345
20 1
developed over a period of time based upon th e 2
unanticipated success in hiring and rncuriting.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY4 When did you start 4
projecting that we were going to go over?
5 MR. DIRCKS:
Well, I can answer that.
We 6
started projecting this overage about six months ago and 7
ve kept a very close track all the way through.
Now if 8
ve exceed it, and we were warning people that we were 9
going to exceed it, and so.we took a series of. steps.
10 Some of those steps may not be popular.
Summer students 11 may not like it.
Some employees who had planned on 12 coming to work in September will have to come in in 13 October.
But I think what you are seeing is more 14 prevalent throughout the economy and it is also more 15 prevalent throughout the City of Washington where 16 agencies have actually cancelled appointment letters.
17 In our agency we are going through a period of 18 slight discomfort, slight compared to other agencies.
19 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY What I am trying to 20 understand if did we go over deliberately or was this 21 inadvertent?
22 HR. DIRCKS:
We did not go over deliberately.
23 We went over through a series of actions that I just 24 m en tion ed.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I do think there was a i
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l
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period in which we didn't pay enough attention.
2 MR. BARRY:
Let me modify Bill's ---
3 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
Well, let me finish.
I 4
think I became aware of the problem about three months 5
ago and this is when we undertook to take the freeze.
6 As a matter of f act, you anticipated it because in the 7
letters to the summer interns there was a statement in 8
there that they may have a foreshortened period during 9
the summer.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY
'And the following 11 sentence said that it was highly unlikely or unlikely.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Well, it didnt say 13
" highly."
It was "unlikely."
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I am thinking of a 15 highly unlik ely accide nt.
16 (Laughter.)
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But I think we have to 18 face up to realism.
If we are going to try to limit our 19 FTE's, it is going to take some action to do so.
I 20 think we have been remiss in allowing the overhiring to 21 go as far as it did to cause us a problem this year.
22 However, the problem this year is not I think as severe i
23 as the one we are going to face next year.
It is a l
24 rather modest problem.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Why is that?
I ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, l
e6aem cet s.e ectamTm na em sumam
22 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Because the hiring didn't
~
2 product people at the beginning of the year but it 3
produced people toward the end of the year.
So they 4
average out over the year close to the 3,325.
But when 5
you have them onboard at the start of the year with 6
o ve ra g es, then the problem gets more severe.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is the attrition 8
rate now?
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You said about four or 10 five percent?
11 MR. BARRY:
.It is down to about four or five 12 percent.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, isn 't that going 14 to bring the number down to a reasonable range?
15 3R. DIRCKS:
When you start off a year in an 16 overage when yo'u count FTE's, you always have to come 17 down two positions for every ---
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes, but still you 19 were talking about 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
If they start off at i
21 3,400, four percent would just bring th'em below 3,300, 22 and that wouldn't do the FTE.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
We are going to have'to 24 develop a plan.
I don't think this is something you can l
l 25 just do off the top of one's head.
I think it does take l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, erg 5tMrp
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1.some planning.
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2 COMMISSION,ER GIIINSKY:
Do you estimate.that 3
attritio will,go down from the four or five percent, 4
will continue to go down :or, will stay at four or five s
5 percent?
6 y
MR. DIRCKS:
I think a lot of it depends on 7
how much the economy picks'up.
If there are job 8
opportunities'outside the agency, people will leave.
1 9
They have traditionally done that.
10 The other thing to take into: consideration is 11 that you are not always attriting in those areas that 12 you would like to attrit in.
If you have very desired s
13 skills irt the agency, they will attrit ct a rate of 20
}
14 to 25 percent.. You get other skills that you may not 15 need right nov Jand they may stay around for a long time.
.N 16 C0KMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But you also are 17 pointing out there that where you have the high 18 attrition there are areas where you may have to go out i
19 to rehire to fill from outside anyway because they are 20 skills that aren't easily found within the agency.
21 MR. DIRCKS:
That is right.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
.Okay for now on that 23 chart?
24 (No response.)
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO All right, why don't we t
I1 l,
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1 (1s i
/(
1 AlrEA$od REPORTING OCMPANY,INC, 7
A t
i 24 1
go to chart 2.
Now this chart shows total personnel and 2
program support, which is the second line in the 3
previo,us chart, and it shows it for the regional 4
opera tions and the headquarter offices and agency 5
administration.
The program support increases through 6
fiscal '84 to, and I have to check because some of these 7
things were just typed for me, and I have already found 8
some typos, so I want to make sure they are correct, but 9
the program support increases through fiscal '84 to 10
$286.5 million and then decreases to $269.6 million, 11 which is 53 million below the current '82 level.
12 From fiscal '82 to fiscal '84 resources for 13 regional operations increase steadily as shown by the 14 first line.
The staff increases by about 40 percent.
15 So that by 1985 NRC will have almost a third of its 16 total staff in the regions, and program support 17 increases by about 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKTs Where are you reading 19 those staffing numbers?
20 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Look at the regional 21 operations.
Do you have a copy?
22 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYa Yes, I do.
I don't 23 have the left-hand side.
24 (Laughter.)
25 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Headquarters staff ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, OR5LYa@P M o
1 l
25 1
decreases by almost 13 percent, while program support 2
remains fairly level until fiscal year 1985 when it 3
begins to drop.
4 Now we will go through individual offices 5
later, but this gives you another cross cut of the 6
personnel and it also gives the way the program support 7
dollars are to spent.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I have a couple of 9
general questions.
You list research headquarters.
I 10 understand in the other NRR, NMSS and ICE where you have 11 people out in the field, are you also putting research 12 to go out in the field?
(
13 MR. DIRCKSa No.
(
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
It is purely research.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 The second question, 18 the type of dollars that these are?
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO U. S. dollars?
18 (Laughter.)
19 MR. BARRY:
In
'83, they are '83 dollars based 20 on an inflation rate that we put into the '93 budget at 21 7.3 percent as compared to
'82.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And the
'8 2 are '82 23 dollars?
24 MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Le t's see, is that th e ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
l 26 1
right inflation rate?
2 MR. BARRY That was the rate that we were 3
permitted to put in.
That is an OHB rate.
They 4
prescribe a rate for us each year.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What.vas that rate?
6 HR. BARRY:
7.3.
7 In
'84, I can't really tell,you what is in 8
there'in all honesty.
What I can tell you is that 9
ONS ---
10 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
But that is not because 11 ve are in an open meeting?
12 HR. BARRY:
No.
13 14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
It is because you can't 15 tell.
16 HR. BARRY:
Yes.
17 (Laughter.)
18 MR. BARRY:
When you realize that about 50 19 percent of the dollars do come from the lab s, you know, 20 it is all over the place, whatever they think their 21 salaries are going to increase in '84 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Fifty percent of our 23 total budget is going to the DOE labs?
i
(
24 MR. BARRY:
Yes, about that, mostly program 25 support, about 85 percent of program support, and l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
)
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W4 WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 5
27 1
program support is about 50 pecent.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Joe Hendrie would have 3
vanted to point out that those are national labs 4
who are ---
5 MR. BARRY:
That'is right.
6 (Laughter.)
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And described it as a 8
ritual offering.
9 (Laughter.)
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Your statement or the 11 d olla rs?
12 (Laughter.)
13 MR. BARRY:
OMB's guidance for '84 is an 14 inflation rate that they will recognize of 5.5 percent.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Say that again.
16 HR. BARRY:
5.5.
17 CHAIRMAN P ALL ADINO :
For what?
l 18 MR. BARRYJ For
'84.
That'is the rate that 19 they will recognize.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4
'83 to '847 21 ER. BARRY:
Yes, sir, and in '84 to '85 it is j
22 an '84 dollar rate, and that will be next year, but OMB l
l 23 has told us that the inflation rate they will recognize 24 at the moment is 4.9 percent.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So let's see if I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON,.O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
o 28 1
understand.
The '82 column dollars are ' 8 2 dolla rs 2
actually spent.
~
3 MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
'83 is what at the time 5
was estimated in terms of '82 levels of type of effort 6
inflated at 7.3 percent?
7 MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The '84 would be 9
characterized as ' 8 4 d olla rs ---
10 HR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs
--- which would be a 12 mixture of a 5.5 percent inflation rate on those things 13 that are directly' estimated by us ---
14 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
--- and some thing 16 higher you estimate due to embedding where the 17 laboratory estimates are involved?
18 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
Now if the DOE labs follow l
19 the OMB guidance, it should be 5.5 percent, but who I
20 knows.
l 21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Then the '85 numbers 22 are supposedly '84 dollars?
1 1
23 MR. BARRY:
'84 d olla rs, that is correct.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Okay, and this, since 25 it is program support, doesn't involve any of the salary l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D C. 20024(202) 554 2345
,o I
29 i
1 and benefit questions with respect to NBC employees?
2 MR. BARRY:
It does not.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me ask you this.
4 You'say the numbers come from the DOE labs.
The dollars 5
are committed to them at this point though.
6 MR. BARRY:
No.
What I am saying is when we 7
receive the standard form 189'concerning all the 8
projects they are doing for us, the numbers that our 9
staff and their staff talk about in the future carries 10 wha tever infla tion rate the labs put in there, and, you 11 know, it is not that closely reviewed in terms of 12 inflation rates.
They review it in terms o f man-year 13 output against a product.
14 Usually we are pretty close together in the 15 sense that OMB does prescribe an inflation rate to DOE F
16 just like they did us, and it was the same rate.
It was 17 5.5.
That went out to the DOE field operations 18 offices.
So we would have to assume that that is 19 probably the rate they cranked in there, but you just 20 don't know for sure.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Dennie', could you 22 comment on how much of your 209.9 is driven by the DOE l
23 lab estimates?
24 HR. ROSS:
I don't think it is driven very 25 auch.
Let me check with Frank, but I don't think we 1
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
p 30 1
consulted with them.
2 HR. GILLESPIE:
On the '84 estima tes the only 3
consultation with the DOE labs is strictly where we have 4
multi-year projects and we already had a figure.
The 5
greater portion of that is the staff's estimate of how 6
auch it should cost or how much a particular product or 7
report is worth.
So the '84 number is in Research's 8
case 60 percent our staff estimate.
They are 9
non-continuing projects.
They are new projects that 10 would start in 'e3 and
'84.
11 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Frank, when you do that 12 staff estimate, is that staff estimate done in '83 13 dollars and then a 5.5 percent inflation applied to it?
k 14 HR. GILLESPIEs You could say it is done in 15
'83 dollars because we are recognizing that it is about 16 5110,000 a man-year per Ph.D. in a lab with his 17 laboratory and his test. tubes.
18 (Laughter.)
19 HR. GILLESPIE:
That covers his overhead.
He 20 is not making that much, I don't believe.
21 (Laughter.)
22 CONHISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
What is the overhead 23 rate for the labs?
l 24 HR. GILLESPIE:
That is DOE's number and we i
25 don't know what that is.
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, i
l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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31 1
(Laughter.)
2 HR. GILLESPIE:
We figure a Ph.D. in a lab in 3
about.5110,000 on the average.
Brookhaven is a little 4
cheaper and ICL is a little more expensive.
So it 5
varies lab to lab.
That is about an average.
If it is 6
a complex computer modeling job, then just based on past 7
experience we know how much computer time was needed 8
with TRAC.
So you are taking an estimate.
Well, our 9
charges for this amount of computer time wa s this much.
10 So we know we need about that much.
So in that sense it 11 is current dollars.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So you saying that the 13 estimate, rather than an explicit calculation of the 5.5
\\
14 percent, it is really not there.
15 HR. GILLESPIE:
It is really not there, right.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
On 60 percent of it?
17 HR. GILLESPIE:
On about 60 percent of it.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa How does that cost per i
19 man compare in labs in private firms?
20 HR. GILLESPIE It. depends on the talent.
~
21 With priva te firms if we are contracting, it is a fixed 22 price contract or if we give them the overhead.
In 23 general private companies are maybe a little cheaper but j
24 not very much when you look at the type of person you l
25 are getting charged for.
Labs charge us less for the l
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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32 1
keypunch operator who is typing it in.
Private 2
companies also charge us less.
So it is really not 3
clear cut on man-year charges.
It depends on the person 4
you are getting charged for.
5 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
So 60 percent of these 6
dollars of the 2,099 are from continuing contracts.
7 MR. GILLESPIE:
No, about 60 percent are new.
8 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
So 40 percent are 9
continuing contracts.
10 HR. GILLESPIEa About 40 percent are 11 continuing contracts.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Okay, and the 40 13 percent were the ones, many of those, where you would i
14 get the 110 for the staff year for '847 15 MR. GILLESPIEs We have got a DOE projection 16 on a standard 189, form that gives you a projection out 17 for the year.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So the 60 percent are 19 the ones you have estimated staff-year effort for a 20 project and then you folded in the estimate in dollars 21 for that?
22 HR. GILLESPIE:
Right, that is staff developed 23 here.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And what do you use for 25 that facto r?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 V1AGINlA AVE., S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
.o 33 1
CHAIRMAN P ALL ADINO:
That is where I gather 2
you are using the 110,000.
3 MR. GILLESPIE:
That is right now where we are 4
using $110,000 a man-year.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is then a mixture 6
of whether it is private or DOE?
7 HR. GILLESPIE Right.
We are using that 8
straight across the board.
9 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
And you got the 110 how?
10 MR. GILLESPIE That is about what we are 11 getting cha rged right now.
12 CONNISSION ER AHEARNE:
But you are getting 13 charged right now in theory in '82 d olla rs.
14 HR. GILLESPIE:
Well, okay.
We have our '83 15 estimates out.
We have gone to the labs in April of 18 this year with our program assumptions for
'83. So we 17 are really basing it on an '83 value.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But would that then say 19 that you haven 't put in the 5.5 percent?
20 HR. GILLESPIE:
That is correct, and indeed we 21 would expect possibly the labs to come back and say you 22 haven't allowed enough money ---
23 COMNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, I guess I am not l
24 sure then.
Are you saying that if I took the 60 percent 25 of the 209 so it would be somewhere around $122 million l
ALDERSCN REPORTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., W ASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345.
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that there ought to be an additional 5.5 percent put on 2
that to really make it in '84 dollars?
3 MR. BARRY:
I guess my answer would be that if 4
you could do it that precise, the answer would be yes.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is about 57 6
million.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
This $110,000 a year, is 8
that the rate that you use now for '827 9
MR. GILLESPIE:
That is the rate that we 10 projected forward.
That was for
'83.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What rate do you use for 12
'82?
13 MR. GILLESPIE:
For '827 14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
If we were estimating '82 15 costs.
16 MR. GILLESPIE:
If we were estimating '82 we 17 would use about 5100,000.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
And now in '83 you are 19 using ---
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, that is what they 21 would really be paying I assume.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I understand.
I am 23 trying to see did they include any inflation in that 24 5110,000.
l 25 MR. GILLESPIE:
Yes.
j l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
s 35 i
1 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
And $110,000 is what you 2
are using in '837 3
MR. GILLESPIE4 That is the rule of thumb ve 4
are using for '83.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, what he also is 6
saying, as your questions pointed out, that as opposed 7
to 7.3' percent inflation allowed by OMB, they are really 8
taking about a 10 percent inflation.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
On that 60 percent.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, I would guess it 11 more like on 100 percent since the number comes from th e 12 DOE.
13 MR. GILLESPIE:
You are looking for 14 preciseness, and this is not exactly 15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What I am really 16 looking for are 55 and $10 and $15 million.
I am trying 17 to understand whether those amounts of dollars are pads 18 or absent.
That is what I am really trying to find.
As l
19 I understand it, the package is put together by trying 20 to make rough estimates of the staf f-year efforts 21 required for a bunch of research projects and then you 22 have a f actor of dolla rs on top to pay for those staff 23 years.
You sum this all up and you end up with roughly 24
$210 million.
25 I as trying to figure out whether or not there l
l l
36 1
should be an additional $10 million on top of that to do 2
the work that is estimated.
Now it is entirely possible 3
tha t the counter is that the staff-year estimates are 4
easily soft by 10 percent and as a result you can 't be 5
that accurate.
6 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
He does add it from '82 7
to
'83.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But I an addressing 9
'84.
That is the number I am talking about.
10 NR. GILLESPIE:
For '84 there is an inherent 11 inflation rate put in there.
What we are basing the 12 costs of a particular product on is our past experience, 13 how much did it cost.last year and the year before.
It 14 is inflated in
'84.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But you said it was 16
$110,000 a person.
17 MB. GILLESPIE:
You want '82 to '83 and for 18 our assumptions that went out in '83 ve put in an extra 19 10 percent.
The way the process works is we are telling 20 the lab ve a re willing to pay this much for this product 21 and they come back and say we can't do it or we can.
r 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But what was-the 23 per-person charge that you assumed for '847 24 NH. GILLESPIEs We use the same 110, the '83 25 planning base.
The breakdown between th e pe rsonnel 1
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
l 4
37 1
charges and the hardware charges is another fuzzy area, 2
so that we don't just totally focus that we are just 3
paying salaries with this.
When it costs you $3 million 4
for an experiment, the experiment itself is, you know, 5
if it is off by 20 percent it can be very costly.
So we 6
have not gotten to building an artificial accuracy into 7
the estimates.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How much of this money 9
goes into the labs on sole source contracts?
10 MR. GILLESPIE:
Goes into the labs?
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
National labs you mean?
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
(
14 MR. GILLESPIE:
Eight-five percent.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Eighty-five percent of 16 the research money?
17 MR. GILLESPIE:
Yes.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What about the rest of 19 the money, this contract money there in addition to 20 research money ?
~
21 MR. BARRY:
The amount of program support that 22 goes to the labs, I think it is about 83 percent now.
23 It is down a little.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Of that total?
Of the 25 270 or 2807 i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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HR. BARRY:
No, of our total program support.
2 That includes NRR and ICE and NHSS.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Eighty-three percent 4
goes into the labs?
5 HR. BARRY:
Into the labs, yes.
6 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY:
And of the other 17 7
percent how much is sole source and how much goes out on 8
bid?
9 HR. BARRY:
I can 't answer that at the moment 10 of how much of that contract money is sole source.
I 11 think it is pretty minor, but I don't know.
12 Pat, do you know?
13 MS. NORRI I think it is running around 9 or 14 10 percent.
15 HR. BARRY:
Nine or ten percent of the $17 16 million I guess then would be ---
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Nine or ten percent of 18 the remainder?
19 HR. BARRY:
Of the remainder of the contract 20 money that goes through our Contracts Office.
t i
21 CONNISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is sole source?
t 22 HR. BARRY:
That is what Pat e stima te s.
I 23 HS. NORRY:
That may be high.
I don't have 24 that precise figure.
25 HR. BARRY:
I just don't know.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
__ svcsoarr6wwvwra Mt_wc+w%r/ Sot _eue_m.sran_rymwrt_______________
39 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So almoct all the rest 2
go out on bid?
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I am sorry?
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Roughly 90 percent of 5
the non-lab contracts go out on bid or are bid 6
competitively?
7 MS. NORRY:
I believe that is correct, yes.
8 MR. BARRI And I think I am correct in saying 9
a good share of the sole source are 8-A firms, minority 10 firms.
That is one of the main reasons for sole source.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Do you want more precise 12 numbers?
13 MR. BARRY:
We can certainly get you I think a 7
14 pretty firm -- well, we can.
Our contracts people can 15 tell you what it is, what it has been running.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Yes, I would like to 17 know.
18 MR. BARRT:
Yes, indeed.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Okay, any other questions 20 on this chart?
~
21 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Yes, I have a 22 question.
Do the Regional Administrators f eel 23 comfortable with your projections for regional 24 operations?
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, we have Jim ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC,
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40 1
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2 NR. DIRCKS:
I would say yes but 3
(Laughter.)
4 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I think he wants to hear 5
it from the region.
6 HR. O'REILLY:
Yes, sir.
7 (Laughter.)
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa What did you have in 9
mind, Tom?
10 CONNISSIONER ROBERTS 4 Their activities are 11 being greatly increased and I wonder if ther-feel 12 comfortable with the projected increased resources?
It 13 is a very simple question.
14 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess I would ask the 15 Headquarters Division whether they are comfortable with 18 their d,ecrease.
I wouldn't think the regions would be 17 uncomfortable with the increase, but I think it would be i
Ic a good question to 19 HR. DIRCKS:
I think what the situation is is 20 that functions are going out and perhaps the regions l
21 feel as though to accomplish those functions they would 1
22 like as many resources as allocated plus some more.
The 23 headquarters offices feels as though functions are going 24 out and whe the r all those resources are really tied to 25 those functions, that is the other question.
I ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIAGINTA AVE., @.W., WA@HIN@T@N, @,@. sis 34 ($@@ @@-M '_ < ff
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I don't think anyone is comfortable in any of 2
this budget.
It is a right budget and everybody has 3
some discomfort in the whole thing.
I think everyone 4
has strongly seen that the misery is shared equally 5
among the offices.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO4 Incidentally, the next 7
chart relates to regional operations if you want to have 8
that in front of you as you discuss this point.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Let me ask Jim a 10 follow-up question to Tom's question.
For many years 11 the regions were basically IEE operations, and during 12 auch of that time, as I recall, the Begional Directors 13 believed that the amount of people that they had did not 14 enable them to meet all of the required inspection in 15 the sense that the inspection modules and there was 16, always a shortfall in the effort.
17 You are now picking up a number of other 18 functions.
Can you give me a rough idea, are there l
19 additional resources that are being given to the l
l 20 regions, and whether you can speak for regions in 21 general or just your own region, are the amount of 22 resources being given the regions to cover the functions 23 that are being transferred of the same character as used 24 to be true of the IEE resources?
In other words, are 25 you getting more functions than you have people to cover ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WGHINGTONe @.@. tK64 (fB24) 990-9949
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them?
2 CHAIRM AN P ALLADINO:
Jim, you might also point 3
out that you have been coordinating the regional 4
nctivities so you can speak for more than your region.
5 HR. O'REILLYa Yes.
I have been selected by 6
the Regional Administrators to represent them and I will 7
speak for all the regions.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, I know.
9 HR. O 'R EILLY:
The issue of resources for the 10 additional functions were, as you would expect, 11 discussed extensive and aggressively with the Program 12 Offices and between all the Regional Administrators and 13 the Program Offices at several meetings and at different 7s 14 staff levels.
15 He originally had requested additional 16 resources to conduct those functions that were being 17 transferred.
In the process of educating ourselves with 18 those functions it was decided that we would, with the 19 concurrence of all the Regional Administrators,and due 20 to our detailed lack of knowledge of a lot of things 21 that resource intensive, that we would " accept their 22 labor rates and what resources they were providing to 23 perform that f unction and they would put in a little 24 extra to help in the training of that.
25 So what we end up taking from the Program l
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC,.
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43 1
Offices is the resources that were budgeted for that 2
function.
So we are getting resources from headquarters 3
that they think are equitable and that they would have 4
used if they had planned it.
5 Nov whether or not they are worth that 6
exactly, or:whether or not in some areas that the 7
absolute responsibility for that function may be delayed 8
a month or a period of time, that may be a parameter 9
that can put into the equation when we assume that to function.
But we do accept.the numbers that provided 11 for those functions and those are the numbers that the 12 Program Offices have provided.
13 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Even assuming that 14 that is correct, that these in f act are the resources 15 tha t you will need to carry out these transferred 16 functions, how realistic is it to assume that the 17 regions nre going to be able staff up with these 18 increases that we are talking about for '83 and '84 and 19 that the headquarters offices are going to be able to l
20 absorb those reductions within the '83 and '84 time 21 frame?
22 HR. DIRCKSa I alluded to that earlier.
That
- 23 is a tough assignment.
What we have done is try to l
24 identify people in headquarters who would be willing to 25 move to the regions.
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COHNISSIONER ROBERTS:
How much success have 2
rou had in that effort?
3 HR. DIRCKS:
I think at last count we had 168 4
people that expressed a desire to move to regions.
The 5
next questions are, one, are they they right skills, 6
and, two, are they the righ t regions.
We have had a 7
large number of people volunterring for almost no 8
openings in Region Y.
9 (Laughter.)
10 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
What about Region 11 III?
12 MR. DIRCKS:
There is some selling to be done 13 on that point.
(~
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
For those in the 15 audience who don't know, Region V is outside of San 16 Francisco and Region III is outside of Chicago.
17 HR. DIRCKS4 So there is this effort to match 18 it.
Also, what we have done in order to manage our 19 total FTE problem again, and if we could pull off a 20 one-for-one. move from headquarters to regions and not go
~
21 to outside recruiting then ve would go a long way to 22 solving our FTE problem, is we put out instructions 23 recently in regard to hiring people in the regions is 5 -
24 that they should make every effort to pick headquarters 25 people for any openings in their regional offices, and I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGlNIA AVE.,9.W WA9HIN@T@N;fj).@. 9E@S3TBsFd @@'h$)3@ '
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think that was accepted quite willingly and strongly by 2
the Regional Administrators because there they are i
3 picking up skills that can be used directly in the 4
program.
5 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
But you really are 6
talking about fairly substantial numbers, particularly 7
if you look at the '82 to '84 time f rame, in each of the 8
three major program offices, and I just wonder how 9
realistic it really is to believe that you are going to 10 get those kinds of resources out to the regions and get 11 the reductions here?
Are we really heading towards a 12 situation where we are transferring the functions and 13 yet the people aren 't going to be here?
14 MR. DIRCKS:
I think what we would have to do 15 is take a hard look at the movement of the fuctions if 16 we can't get the people out there.
17 COHHISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, you are talking 18 about over 200 people in those two years.
Nov what 19 fraction of those do you think will come from 20 headquarters?
~
21 HR. DIRCKS:
This is all part of that staffing 22 plan we are working on.
I mentioned these 168 23 candidates that do want to be considered for regional
/
24 offices.
We are going th ro ugh that list now to see 25 where the skills can be applied and whether the l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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geographic preference I mentioned ---
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa In other words, if you j
3 get let's say optimistically a hundred out of 4
headquarters, are we then talking about firing 100 5
people as a result of this?
6 MR. DIRCKS I think what we would like to do 7
then is to go back and tahe a look at whether we should 8
look at the pace of functional distribution.
When we 9
talked about regionalization.a couple of months of ago, 10 I said we would like to accomplish this without a 11 substantial amount of personal hardship or firings or 12 anything else like that.
13 It is a problem that I think we can control 14 because the movement of the functions is within our 15 control.
If we just can't get the people out there, 16 then we vill look at the pace of the functional 17 distribution and we can come back and talk about it then.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa When you say that you
(
19 had a large number of people express an interest in 20 moving to the region s, was that an interest in moving to 21 the regions or an interest in competing"for the fev 22 management positions?
23 HR. DIRCKS:
No, a large number of 24 administrative clerical people wanted to go to the l
25 regions.
We had a number of engineering skills that l
l i
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vanted to go to the regions.
We are moving ahead with 2
the staffing of the Denver office and there are a number 3
of people who want to move to Denver.
So what I think 4
ve vill try to do is take it step by step and move it 5
along that line.
6 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Some like it hot and some 7
lik e it cold.
8 (Laughter.)
9 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE But you are not yet 10 at the point where you can say that you can match with a 11 certain percentage of headquarters people the kind of 12 skills you are going to need to perform those functions?
13 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
No, we are not at 14 that step.
I think a lot of that will be addressed in 15 this staffing plan we are coming to the Commission with 16 in late August.
17 CONHISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
But this has the 18 potential for complicating, perhaps even drastically l
19 complicating the problem that the Chairman described 20 earlier, which is to get down to the FTE level.
21 HR. DIRCKS:
There are a lot of forces l
22 complicating this process, the overall reduction in 23 ceiling, the movement of functions to the regions and 24 the slow-down of a ttrition rate.
It is a very complex l
l 25 problem for us to solve.
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
And it isn't only a 2
question of numbers, but matching the required talents
~
3 by places.
4 MR. DIRCKS:
Right.
5 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Yes.
6 MR. DIRCKS:
You see Region V didn't pick up 7
auch in terms of new functions.
That region had been 8
moving more slowly.
Regions I, II and III have moved 9
much more aggressively into this area so that.ve didn't 10 have that number of engineering skill openings.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is interesting the 12 way you have just phrased it.
Are you saying tha t the 13 transfer of functions is more a pull from the regions 14 than it is from the ---
15 HR. DIRCKS:
No, it is the current array of 16 programs already out in the regions.
Region V is a 17 small office and ---
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I had though what goes 19 out when was more a decision that had been made by 20 headquarters as opposed to ---
i 21 HR. DIRCKS:
It is a headquarters decision, 22 but I wouldn 't describe it as a unilateral decision.
I l
23 think it is a decision that has been worked out between s.
24 the Regional Administrators and the headquarters program 1
25 offices.
The plant that I guess we vill come to l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 V'AGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
be 49 1
eventually, and you will see as we go from
'82,
'83,
'84 2
and '85 that there are big blocks of programs moving out.
3 Region V, for example, doesn't have much of a 4
direct materials licensing program.
Most of those are 5
agreement states so you don't staff tha t, up f or specific 8
licenses.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, Chart No. 3 shows 8
the amount of resources for NRC programs that will be 9
placed in the regions and, as you will note, the 10 inspection enforcement program.and to a lesser extent, 11 the reactor regulation program vil3 constitute the 12 largest amount of resources in the regions.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Let's see, if one to 14 take this as a plan which will be followed if other 15 things work out, or what?
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What do you mean?
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I mean we are 18 planning to move so many people and ---
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, this is a plan 20 which we will try to implement.
l
~
21 MR. DIRCKS:
This is a budget which is sort of 22 indicating where we want to go for the next few fiscal 23 years.
You control budgets ~by allotments and that is 24 how when we come up to that fiscal year we will control 25 it that way.
ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345'
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- 1 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
It really isn't at this 2
stage, is it, Bill, a plan to move people, but it is a 3
plan where the staff years are supposed to be located?
4 NR. DIRCKS:
That is right.
5 MR. BARRY:
Absolutely.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And if you can move 7
people that would be preferable, but still. this is your 8
plan of where the staff years are.
9 HR. DIRCKS:
That is right.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, but if the staff 11 years are going to be in the regions, then maybe you 12 will move people or maybe you will fire people.
13 COMNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Tha t is righ t.
That is 14 what I am saying.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Or maybe some things 16 don ' t ge t transferred to the regions.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY That is what I am 18 asking.
It is going to get reviewed after September at I
19 you take a look at this?
20 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Oh, yes.
~
21 HR. DIRCKS:
You will look at the staffing 22 plan and as you come up to each fiscal year you are 23 talking about allotments there where you actually allot 24 resources to accomplish your objectives.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But tha t it something l
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CHAIRMAN PALLADING:
Well, I thlak$1.f 2 '
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circumstances' will permit, I would like to trf to have a
., o 4, qta eterly review by the Commission on where e are with
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E regard to some of c,ur budget activities, and program s
6 plans.
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7 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I am ailittle
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concerned aboc't. this shif ting around people who are j.
8 I
9J supposedly 'no longer effec _tive.
People don't just
/
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They are badly managed.and badly j.
1fiit' rained and it means the managers have noU looked ahead t
/
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12 at the needs of the agency.
To just casually let people 13 go as a consequence of that is, I think, something I 14 don 't want to do.
l 15 COMMISSIONE3 AHEARNE:
Vic, nobod y 'has said
(-
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16' knything about,that.
'You are the only one who'has said g
I 17,'anrthing about casually letting people go.
This is a
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l q },-
a 19 moving functions out.
,Theyf hi.ve gone cut and asked who yj
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would,like to move and tAer-are trying to manage this.
i 20
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i 21 It is irresponsible to use, thq wori " casual."
This n
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They are tcylng very carefully to deal'-
23 with th e peop?.e problem and tahe'corsiderationofall
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. COMMISSIONER GIIINSKYs I as trying to'
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understand what the commitment to these numbers is and 2
what it depends on.
Now Bill said earlier that if 3
things don't work out then maybe some of the functions
)
4 von't get moved out at the same rate that is planned i
5 here.
I am trying to understand what the Chairman has 6
in mind.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The Chairman has in mind 8
that these are the targets for planning purposes and the 9
allocation of the way the resources would be if we 10 achieved that plan.
But, Vic, we have to work toward I
11 it.
You don't all of thi sudden come into conformance l
12 with the plan vithout a very carefully considered i
13 process, and this is why the staffing plan I view has a l
l 14 very important adjunct to the budget planning process.
15 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Do any of the 16 Program Office Directors have any comments they want to 17 make on this issue?
i 18 MR. DAVIS:
Well, as a Program Office l
l 19 Director, I look upon the total resources assigned to l
l 20 that program as something I am concerned about, whether 21 they are here or whether they are at the region.
22 I will be moving out I guess the first large
(
23 contingent to the Denver office, and the way it is
(
24 planned how it should meet this schedule here.
But we 25 are being very careful in looking at the personal ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345. ; <.
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1 situation of individuals.
I have already talked with 2
Bill and with Collins in Dallas, and if in fact we can't 3
meet this schedule, then we may slide another year to 4
p ull people out there.
But right now I as fairly 5
optimistic we can meet the schedule.
6 The way I look at it from my program 7
responsibilities, there is a certain pool of resources, 8
some here in headquarters with me and some out in the 9
regions, and I am concerned about all of them in meeting 10 that.
So consequently I am very concerned with I send 11 stuff, for example, to Jim 's region that he knows what 12 the guidance is for it, that he has got ample resources 13 to do it, and if he doesn't I will. people here to back 14 him up and decide things.
15 Hy impression is it is a very deliberative 16 process that I would anticipate vill take about five 17 years to do.
18 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, except over here l
19 it looks like there is going to be a pretty rapid l
l 20 movement in two years.
21
- 58. DAVISs In the f ront end there is ---
22 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY:
That is what we are 23 talking about.
Now I an all for the agency configuring 24 itself in a more efficient and sansible manner, but:ve l
i 25 are also talking here about staff reductions where ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345..
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things don't quite fit.
Now that, in my view, reflects 2
a certain lack of forethought on the part of the 3
mangement of this agency and it involves in each case, 4
it seems to me, a certain element of management f ailure.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Wait a minute.
I have to 6
step in on that.
The.regionalization was a decision 7
made by the Commission.
The plan by which it was to be 8
done was made available to all the Commissioners and the 9
comments that were received I think were reflected in to the final version.
This is a plan to try and achieve an 11 obj ec tive.
It is not the manpower or staff-power 12 transfer plan.
That'is what the staffing plan is 13 intended to accomplish.
s
~
14 So I think we should not mix up what the 15 program target is and how we are going to get there.
I 16 don 't think we are going to accomplish it by a step 17 change, as this implies in all cases, and it is going to 18 take some adjustment.
But any time you make this kind 19 of transition you are going to face transitional 20 problems and that is what the staffing plan is to l
21 address.
~
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But you are not 23 talking about a general goal or distant goal, you are l
24 talking about a specific plan l
s 25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
For fiscal '83 and fiscal ALDERSoN REPoR* LNG CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. o.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 -
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'84.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
--- f or ove r a 200 man 3
shift in two years, and that is fine if we can do it in 4
a reasonable way.
But I also took your earlier remarks 5
to mean that there are certain stagnant areas of the 6
Commission that will have to be pared down.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
They are both involved in 8
the staffing plan.
9 CONHISSIONER GILINSKYa Now if that is so, it 10 seems to me there is a certain element of management 11 accountability that has got to be there, too.
How did 12 these areas become stagnant?
People just d on't become 13 stagnant on their own.
14 HR. DIRCKS:
You have got to step back and 15 think about.what you are talking about.
I mean, when we 16 talk about skills being stagnant, the agency's mission 17 has changed over time.
I think Harold has mentioned 18 tha t as you move f rom a construction permit review 19 agency to an OL agengy 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And then to an 21 inspection agency.
~
22 HR. DIRCKS:
--- there are certain skills 23 tha t were involved in that effort tha t ma y not longer be i
24 needed.
It is incumbent upon the agency then,to find 25 other positions for those people.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTONi D.C. 20024 (202) 354 2345 -
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1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes, but these things i
2 were evident for the last several years.
3 MR. DIRCKS:
So what are you saying, that we 4
shoud have fired people a couple of years ago when we 5
needed the skills?
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO4 Well, wait a minute.
7 They may have been evident a couple of years ago, but 8
the.v don 't come into ef f ect until you actually get to 9
the situation that we are in.
Now that doesn't mean 10 that you don't plan for that.
11 COMHISSIONER GILINSKYa I guess I don't know 12 what that means.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOa Well, that means you may
(,
14 assume five years ahead that you are going to come to a 15 stage where you are no longer reviewing construction 16 permits and you are reviewing OL 's, but still you are in 17 that process and you need those people and it does take 18 a planning effort to get there.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, it means you l
20 have allowed them to go up a blind alley.
21 CHAIRNAN PALLADIN0a I don't follow that.
22 HR. DAVIS:
May I interject.
In our 23 safeguards area ve recognized some years ago that there 24 would perhaps be a turndown in safeguards.
What we have 25 been doing for the last couple to three years is of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 -
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course we hire to replace attrition, but when we hire 2
people in safeguards now we have been focusing on hiring 3
people with what we call transferrable skills.
So that 7'
4 they are not just a narrow safeguards expert, but they 5
have a broader base of skills so when their job may 6
disappear in safeguards they would at least be partially 7
qualified and trainable for a job somewhere else.
That 8
has been a very deliberate process in the area of 9
safeguards.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I think that is 11 commendable.
12 MB. DIRCKS:
I think that is true in most of 13 the program offices.
They are all taking a look at 14 where the agency is going to be, a t. where it is now and 15 where it is going to be in a couple of years.
16 Harold, you may want to speak to your 17 situation.
I mean each program has its own set of 18 problems and each Program Manager is addressing them.
19 MR. DENTON:
On that point I guess it was two 20 years ago that when we reorganized we reduced the 21 environmental group from a division status down to a 22 branch status and we are down now to just a handful of 23 ecologists who do the remaining environmental impact 24 statements.
I think there are only two lef t in that 25 group who you would call true ecologists.
The others ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
58 1
have skills which are transferrable.
So we did see this 2
trend coming.
3 I guess on the broader question you would ask 4
is the budget adequa te.
I think it is adequate to do 5
the functions that are assigned to NRR in those years.
6 The big question is to mate the FTE with the resources.
7 I am dropping about 40 or 50 people each year beginning 8
at the end of this current year, and in order to do that 9
I am dropping 40 or 50 in FTE's.
In order to do that I 10 have got to drop 100 people in the year because of the 11 var attrition goes.
12 Some of these I can accommodate by people who 13 vant.to transfer voluntarily to a region.
The other r.
14 vill be through attrition.
But it will involve a lot of 15 detailed managing to try to make sure that we have got 16 the right skills for the right functiona as this 17 attrition continues out a while.
l 18 I foresee that in our main line skills, like 19 the Division of Systems Integra tion and the Division of 20 Engineering that we vill be dropping like 30 percent of 21 that staff over the next year because that is the area f
22 that does casework reviews and do some of the operating 1
23 actions.
With the drop in casework and the shif ting of
(
24 functions to the regions, they a re the ones whose 25 functions are not needed the way they were this year.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON. O.C. 20'324 (202) 554 2345
59 1
So it really is a job of managing the individuals to get 2
to do the functions that the agency has to perform.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 I think associated with 4
that is a necessary to avoid oscillations.
For example, 5
you say well, to go down 40 you have to perhaps have 6
twice as many go.
Well, we can 't afford that because in 7
the next year, if we are level, we will level at too low 8
a level and we don't want to go down and then have to go 9
up.
This is why the staffing plan I think has to be 10 very carefully considered.
It will disclose problems in 11 meeting the FTE's for particular years and that would 12 form a realistic basis to go and maybe ask for ceiling 13 changes at tha t pa rticular time.
But I think until we 14 study it, I don't know that we really can respond to all 15 the. questions on this particular item.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.
Harold, talking about 17 NRR, in the past in order to meet some of the major 18 wor? load problems we took two actions in NRR.
One was 19 to go out and use what I guess we call lab loaners.
20 These were resources primarily out of the national labs 21 to assist us in licensing review actions primarily after 22 TMI.
A second was to hire groups such as Franklin 23 Institute to also do selected subsets of some of the 24 licensing, reviews.
25 In both of those cases the people that were l
l ALDERSCN REPORTING CCMPAN). INC.
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being hired were being hired under contract to do the 2
type of work that the staff in the part had done and 3
could do.
Now in your retrenchment are you first 4
retrencing on all of that contract work?
5 HR. DENTON:
That is what we did in the 6
environmental arena because we had skills available here 7
to do the work and people weren't leaving that area.
So 8
ve tended to pull it back in where we had it.
We have 9
tried. to maintain a balance here so tha t we don' t go 10 down one year and up the next year, but NRR is going 11 down each of these years by about 50.
So we have tried 12 to accommodate that sort of drop and then use the 13 dollars so that we maintain the staffing level
(
'~
14 m one ta rily downward.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But certainly it is 16 preferable to try to handle the fluctuation by contract.
17 HR. DENTON:
Yes, and that is what we do to 18 keep year-to-year variations from people.
We tried to 19 accommodate the drop that we think we can do with a 20 transfer of people and attrition and then use the
~
21 contracts as the shock absorbers.
-+
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Any more questions?
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What are those reactor 24 regulation people going to be doing in the regions?
25 MR. O'REILLY:
They break it down further on.
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HR. DENTON:
Further on there is a breakdown.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You are going to break 3
each of these down did you say?
4' CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Perhaps we should go to 5
the next chart.
I think the next three charts all refer 6
to reactor regulation.
Chart 4 shows the total 7
resources in terms of staff years and program support 8
for reactor regulation at headquarters and in the 9
regions.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, are these people 11 going to continue being in reactor regulation?
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
This is now showing 13 reactor regulation as a function.
r 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKTa Oh, I see,as a 15 general function.
16 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Also listed are the major 17 planned accomplishments to be implemented at 18 headquarters on this chart.
I think you can see the 19 staff level 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
When you say reactor 21 regulation, I take it you mean design tsview because it 22 doesn't include inspection.
23 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
It does not include 24 licensing actions of all kinds.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Is it licensing ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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1 actions?
Is that the idea?
2 MR. BARRY:
What it means is all of the items 3
that were totally under Harold Denton.
j 4
CONHISSIONER GILINSKY What is the f unctional 5
grouping?
6 ER. O'REILLYa In 1982, Commissioner, this 7
relates to assignments to the regions, and Region III 8
f or some of the operator licensing examination 9
functions.
In 1983 it means throughout.the whole year 10 that we should end up that year with Regions II and III 11 handling the operating licensing examination functions 12 and testing.
It also will.mean for all regions ---
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Testing of reactor
(~
14 operators?
15 MR. O'REILLYs Reactor operators.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Incidentally, these are 17 listed on the next Chart 5.
The reactor regulation 18 activities of regions are listed.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, we don 't have to 20 take them out of order.
21 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
No, that'is all right.
22 HR. O'REILLIs It also would inclinde the 23 manpower related to starting off in
'83..
We are doing 24 tha t now, but certain1I in '83 ve are doing a relatively 25 large number of licensing actions and amendments that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC.
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NRR has given to the regions in according with the 2
commitment made, that we would actually conduct them in 3
'82, licensing would review them and formalize them, and 4
sometime in '83 and '84 the regions would be assuming 5
some of those functions for specific plants.
6 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
How is the division 7
made, particularly for those operator reactor licensing 8
actions between those that will be done in the region 9
and those that will be done in headquarters ?
10 MR. O 'REILLY:
For operator?
11 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE4 Fo r ope ra ting 12 reactor licensing actions, the first ones on that chart.
7-13 HR. O'REILLYs The ones in this year that were 14 selected by NRR are the type they believe that the 15 regions could handle and it wasn't left just as that 16 stage.
The regions then looked at this list to see 17 whether or not we could handle those types with.the 18 types of people that we had.
So we went back and for on 19 that and we ended up assuming a workload of 20 approximately 550 licensing actions in fiscal year '82.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
'82 or '837 22 HR. O'REILLY:
Well, we have received them but 23 ve haven't completed them.
In other words, we haven't 24 really started.
Well, we have done some, but we haven't 25 really started in production in performing these actions.
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NR. DENTON:
It was the intent to match the 2
skills and the resident inspector's knowledge and pick 3
out amendments which required the type of skills that 4
were already in the region that they could accommodate.
5 They tended to be more of the specific plant 6
requirements or ones that were related to operations 7
like procedures, for example, that were easier for the 8
region to ge t to than head quarte rs.
9 He tended to keep the big technical areas like 10 steam generators, of working those back here.
I think 11 that is the general pattern we foresee, which is in 12 areas where the technology is unsettled, we don't have a 13 standard review plan developed and don 't know quite what 14 we want to do, that we will tend to work it here.
Once 15 ve have established an acceptable way to resolve a 16 techncialNagoblem, the regions then can pick that up and 17 follow those kinds of guidelines.
l 18
~ COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Are you sa ying though 19 tha t the 500-plus actions are being handled by the seven 20 staff years?
~
21 HR. O 'R EILLY :
That is part of the 22 allocation.
The major function of those seven comes 23 from the operator licensing functions in Region III.
l l
24 COEMISSIONER AHEARNE4 So that the 500 plus 25 actions are being handled by staff yea'rs that aren't ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345-6
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shown on this?
2 MR. O'REILLY Yes, sir, but they are not all 3
going to be completed.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I recognize that.
5 HR. O'REILLY:
We just received those packages 6
within the last month.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But that type of action 8
for '83 and
'84, are the staff years for that type of 9
action covered on this chart?
10 MR. O'REILLY:
Yes, sir.
They are in the 45, 11 97 and 135.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So it is only in the 13
'82 number that they are not?
14 NR. O'REILLY:
Yes, sir.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
When you have reduced 16 the inventory to an acceptable level by FY-85, what is 17 the acceptable level?
18 MR. DENTON:
What we have in mind is something 19 like on the order of 10 or 12, or not more than 10 or 12 20 per plant that are outstanding;-in other words, 21 recognizing there is some stream of amendments that are 22 expected to be coming in.
It won't be zero.
We won't 23 turn it around exactly, but it would'be just a handful 24 of amendments on each plant tha t are in the process of 25 being acted on as opposed to the large numbers now per ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A-- AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON O C. 20024 [202) 554 2345 /
66 1
plant.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The ideal would be to get 3
to the poin t where the incoming equal the outgoing.
4 HR. DENTON:
That is right.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But right now we have got 6
a backlog of several thousand or maybe twice several 7
thousand.
8 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Of that backlog 9
about how many are waiting for NRC staff resources to be 10 available to work on them and how many are waiting upon 11 other information to come in from the licensees?
12 HR. DENTON:
Going back a year or two it was 13 largely the lack of NRC staff resources to work on 14 them.
We. ha ven ' t tried to break it down recently, but 15 there is very little backlog any more, if any, that is 16 not being worked on within either the staff or by our 17 contractors.
I think the principal hold-up now in 18 making f urther strides in reducing it is getting the 19 material from the licensee in the first place.
20 Jessie, do you have any better data than that?
~
21 MR. FUCHES:
Not any specific numbers on the 22 total.
23 NR. DENTON4 I noticed through the end of May 24 we had processed almost 2,000 actions in that year.
The 25 reason we weren't accelerating is on some of the areas l
1 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l
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the licensees just did not move on, such as SPPS, for 2
example, which is an outstanding action and either we 3
hadn't provided the guidance in that area for one reason 4
or another or they hadn't been able to design equipment 5
to meet the guidance.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In a related area to 7
this, in regional operation, we have got a large amount 8
of information which was provided when the Chairman sent 9
his presentation to us.
Some of it has program office 10 requests listed and then there is the final 11 recommendation.
12 In the areas of the region program office 13 requests, is that the regional summary or is that what 14 the headquarters program office thought was required to 15 handle that function?
16 MR. BARRY:
That was the regional request.
It 17 was on the first go when they came in, what they asked 18 for.
19 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
What they asked for 20 having been given a set of the functions that we are 21 going to be transferring?
22 MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
There is one in 24 specific I wanted to ask about.
In reactor operator
'25 licensing, it seemed that the regions asked for a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASMNGTON O.C. 20024 (2021 554 2345 -.
pf a
o 68 1
substantially larger number of people than the final 2
recommendation.
I think in one of the back-up materials 3
they asked for 60.8 staff years in '84 and ended up with 4
36.8 and 61.7 staff years in '85 and ended up with 40.7.
5 Is there any particular reason why there is 6
such a large difference between what the regions thought 7
were necessary for operating licensing and the Chairman 8
ended up giving them?
9 HR. DONNELLY:
I can answer that I believe.
10 The process by which we arrived at these numbers evolved 11 over a couple of months.
The first meetings we had were 12 joint meetings between the program offices in the 13 regions and we tried to get some workload and staff 14 estimates to come up with the first numbers.
The ones 15 ve used were the first ones provided.
16 Subsequently, the number of actions in 17 operator licensing and the amount of staff time required l
18 to accomplish those both came down.
The numbers that 19 are now in the recommended column do reflect what our l
20 request would have been had we had that information
~
21 earlier.
22 COEMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now are yo u sa ying tha t 23 there was a revision?
x 24 HR. DONNELLYa Yes.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
We.s that because NRR ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
a SF 69 1
had not provided an estimate of the number of actions 2
and the time required for action?
l 3
MR. DONNELLYa They did provide it, but they 4
provided it with a caveat that this was their early 5
draf t numbers and it would be revised later.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Are the revisions based 7
based upon a policy modification or just a better 8
estimate of past experience?
9 HR. DONNELLYa I will have to turn to NRR for 10 that.
11 HR. FUCHES:
The revision was basically based 12 on changes in some of the labor rates based on past 13 experience, not in essence changing the number of 14 licensing actions, but changing the workload based on l
15 never inforamtion that we were developing a t the time we i
16 gave the preliminary estimate.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So it is roughly the I
18 same number of licensing actions ---
19 MR. FUCHES:
Right.
20 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
--- but almost a 30 21 percent reduction in the amount of Sffort required to do 22 that licensing action.
23 HR. DONNELLY:
Jessie, I don't believe in
(
24 operating licensing that the number of actions to be 25 taken stayed the same.
I think they did come down.
The l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVt., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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license amendments for operating reactors came down ---
2 MB. FUCHES:
Right.
3 MR. DONNELLYa but he is asking about 4
operator licensing.
5 MB. FUCHES4 That is true, they did come down 6
some, but not much on requal. based on the latest 7
information we had on plans for requal.
We estimated 8
the number of requalification site visits that would be 9
required.
We also had made an examination of the labor 10 rates for NRR based on historical data and that changed 11 some of the labor rates also.
12 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
So the reduction is an 13 improvement in the data but there are no policy changes 14 reflected.
15 Mr.. FUCHES:
That is correct.
~
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I should mention, John, 17 with regard to the regional budget estimates, it did 18 involve a series of meetings between headquarters people 19 and the regional people and there was a certain amount 20 of negotiation,"but the nutbers that are in here I 21 didn't change because I did become aware of all the 22 extensive involvement that the regions and the staff 23 would have.
So these were not reductions what the 24 negotiated settlements were.
25 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
The reason I asked the ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTbN. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
71 1
question the way I asked it though is the charts I have 2
say " office recommendation."
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 I am just explaining.
On 4
others I did impact.
5 (Laughter.)
8 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
But I felt this seemed to 7
be so reasonably done I let it be.
8 Let's see, did you want to go back over Chart 9
4 10 COHH1SSIONER ROBERTSa k* o l l, I have a question.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Go ahead, Tom.
12 COHNISSIONER ROBERTS:
What is the basis for 13 the essumed two new unresolved safety issues each fiscal 14 year?
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I guess it is somewhat 18 arbitrary based on experience.
I will let Harold give 17 his point of view.
j 18 HR. DENTONa It is based on the experience in 19 the number of abnormal occurrences that we have in a 20 number of plants and what our tendency has been ~ to have 21 problems that we collectively think rate meeting the 22 definition of USI's.
It is down from what we have i
23 actually done in the past.
So our record is probably more like f our or five per year that have been decreed 24 25 to be USI's So it presumes that we are not going to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
72 1
have a spade of major problems such as Browns Ferry or 2
Rancho Seco type. events that lead to the development of 3
USI's.
COHEISSIONER ROBNRTS:
I am sure you 4
5 understand my concern.
Just because we write this down, 6
I don't want us finding two every year.
7 (Laughter.)
8 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
And conversely, just 9
because we write it down, if there are more than two ---
10 (Laughter.)
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Yes, that cuts 'both 12.vays.
13 ER. DENTON:
It is just a planning wedge in 14 that sense.
15 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSs I am not criticizing.
18 I just want to understand t'he basis.
17 HR. DENTONa We have tried also in this budget 18 to resolve all USI's within three years because there 19 has been a tendency for some issues to become USI's and 20 drag.
So we have set up actually what I would call a j
21 mini-Beville Report for just USI's to assure that we get 22 those worked off in a timely period of time.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, while we have this
(
24 chart on the screen I might call your attention to the 25 fact that the total staff levels increase slightly in t
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
e 73 i
1 fiscal '83 and '84 and then decrease in
'85, and the j
2 program support funds increase in '83 and then continue 3
to drop through '85 to below the current levels.
4 Then also listed at the major planned 5
accomplishments to be implemented at headquarters.
6 Later we will have further a breakdown by decision units.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
There I have a couple 8
of questions.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, we have been to through Chart 5, the regions ---
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Let me ask you, what 12 are the number of persons scheduled for the CRBR.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think that is going to 14 come up.
15 COEMISSION ER GILINSKY:
Well, if that is going 16 to come up I can v'ait.
17 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
What happens to 18 those people and that money if it gets cancelled ?
19 20 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I think that is a
~
21 reasonable question.
22 HR. B ArdY a You mean just NRR or in total in 23 the agency.
l 24 COHNISSIONER ASS ELSTIN E.
In total in the 25 agency.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345-
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Although I would be 2
interested to know how it breaks down.
3 MR. DIRCKS In fiscal '83 for the total 4
kgency it is 39.
Do you want to know where they are?
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Yes, I think it might be 6
well to have that.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY That is persons or 8
equivalent man-years?
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So it would be some 11 larger number of persons, part of whom are working on 12 this project?
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0a That is the total staff 14 years.
15 HR. DENTON:
I think that is the full-time 16 equivalent in staff-years.
17 MR. DIRCKSa Yes, that is FTE's.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do you have any l
l 19 estimate of how many persons would actually be involved 20 full or part time?
21 MR. DIRCKS First let me give you a l
22 breakdown by the offices.
In fiscal '83 23 in NRR, 2 in l
23 Research, 3 in ELD, 2 in NMSS, 5 in the regions, 2 in 24 the Licensing Board Panels and 2 in ACRS.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see, the five in l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 t
75 1
the regions are in tha t particular region, Region II.
2 3R. O'REILLY:
They are in Region IV for the 3
vendor aspects of it and Region II f or prog rammatic 4
oversight inspection and resident assisgnment.
5 COMMISSION ER GILINSKY Do you have any kind 6
of a rough estimate, and I realize it is difficult to 7
make, on how many people would actually be involved full 8
or part tim e ?
9 MR. DENTONs We have 12 people in the CRBR to program office exclusively working on CRBR, and the 11 other 10 full-time equivalents are pieces of people 12 spread out in the organization.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So you would double 14 that number roughly?
15 MR. DENTON:
You mean the total number of 16 p'eo ple ?
17 HR. DIRCKS:
People who may be involved.
18 MR. DENTON:
Oh, I think it is double or 19 triple.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE You'have 12 right now.
21 HR. DENTON:
We have 12 full-time people and 22 then we were counting on an additional 10 from the 23 supporting technical groups.
i l
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now is tha t a level 25 office in the budget?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
76 1
MR. DENTON It is roughly level through '83 2
and then cuts in half by
'84.
So it assumes that we 3
have completed the construction permit review phase.
4 MR. DIRCKSs In '84 that number of 39 I gave 5
rou goes down to 22 and then in '85 it is scheduled for 6
12, 7
MR. DENTON:
In response to your question of 8
what would happen if those people weren't needed for 9
that function, I think it just exacerbates your 10 personnel management difficulties that we discussed.
11 There are people then where there is no function to go.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOa It may also depend on the 13 instructions we get from the Congress.
If they cancel 14 CRBR and they say, well, we want an LMFBR longer-range 15 study, then that would change our direction.
16 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
When you say there is 18 no place to go, were all those people or a large bulk of 19 them hired from outside the agency?
I thought many were 20 transferred from inside.
~
21 HR. DENTON:
They-have skills which are 22 fungible and in almost all cases could work in 23 light-water technology, but they add that increment of 24 12 or 20 people in excess of the functions.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa Yes, but a s f ar as the l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINlA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
77 1
transferrability of their skills ---
2 HR. DENTON:
I think it is very high 3
transferability.
4 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
What kind of 5
resources to you have in the budget for
'83,
'84 and '85 6
f or things tha t aren 't anticipated right now?
Tom 7
mentioned the unresolved safety issues, but if a problem 8
comes up do you have some in there that you could direct 9
to those problems, or is it a matter then of actually 10 reducing some allocation?
11 MR. DENTON:
Speaking just for NRR there is no 12 contingency for major problems such cs THI.
There is no 13 budget assumption like th a t. ' It assumes a reduction in s
14 the number of operating actions that will be necessary 15 that we take in the future and then it assumes that the 16 process tends stabilize and then a reduction both in the 17 number of operator actions and new Commission rules and 18 new USI's.
So it is tied to tha t kind of an assumption 19 rather than a contingency per se.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Let me ask you this.
21 Barring new orders for some years, at any rate, what is 22 going to happen with NRR?
What kind of work do you see 23 it doing?
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24 HR. DENTON:
Let's take operating licensing 25 which is function which is to regionalized very quickly ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIAGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
78 1
in the budget.
We have got in this budget a group of 2
six f ull-time equivalen t people whose job it would be to 3
oversee that function in the region where it is 4
performed, the programmatic direction to the region with 5
all the work in aperating licensing exams and grading 6
and scoring would be done in the regions and the group 7
back here, which essentially would be a very small 8
group, a total of six, including clerical assistance, 9
would provide whatever technical direction that is 10 needed from here.
11 CONMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see, that is six 12 out of 700.
13 HR. DENTON:
Well, the operator licensing 14 group grows and stays in the region and it will get up 15 to, and I have forgotten what the cross-cut shows, but a 16 f air number of people in each region that would be 17 involved in administering the licenses.
18 In most of the technical areas the same sort 19 of thing v<ald happen.
With no new casework and no CP's 20 coming in and as the OL's are processed, I see, at least l
21 I will be proposing that we retain some" cen ter of 22 excellence in certain technical areas back here to work 23 on improvements or generic problems, whereas the actual
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24 day-to-day operations would all be out in the field.
I 25 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY:
How big an office do l
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4 e' fD HR. DENTONs I don't think we ye't have a
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We have projected through '85 in this s
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY When does the reactor e
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You mean the new
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13 HR. DENICHv EE-have done some, projections out
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
WeAtfe really just 15 18 tal_ king about operating licenses nowcat his polit.
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.,17 HR. DENTON:
The headquartets NRR function i_
18 would go to a maintainability sort of level and we would 19, be a lot less than we are now if you assume no new 20 ' applications for operating licenses.
l' 21 COMMISSIONER 3.HEARNE:
Let's look at say i
f ' [ ',l 22 1990.
What would your rought eseimate be,of the size of i
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HR. DENTON:
We only have preliminary thoughts.
2 MB. FUCHES:
The resources based on the 3
current prediction of new applications, the resources 4
for operating licenses basically go to maybe 10 or 20 5
staff years.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
When do you see that?
7 MR. FUCHES:
The big drop would start in about 8
'86.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So that would be down 10 to 10 or 20.
11 MR. FUCHES:
Yes, you are talking 10 to 20.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Maybe we ought to turn to 13 slide 6 because some of these items are listed by
(
14 decision unit and it shows operating reactors.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is that first line of 16 operating reactors that would drop to about 10 to 20 in 17
'867 i
i 18 MR. DENTON:
That is the one which is being 19 picked up in the regions.
20 MR. FUCHES:
It is the casework line that 21 would drop the cost of new licensing.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, the operating i
i 23 reactors would also drop if you succeeded in working 24 through that backlog.
l 25 MR. FUCHES:
It would also drop because it l
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would go to the region also.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, except the 3
number of retctors is going to ---
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
And there will be problem 5
analyses that will be required.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And they are getting 7
older.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I don't see operating 9
reactors dropping off to that low a level, because there 10 are continuing activities involved.
11 NR. DIRCKS:
No, not to that level.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, but that is more 13 being shifted to the region.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
There is going to be 15 back-up analytical talent needed.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
2007
~
17 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
No, I am sorry.
I don't 18 know what that level is, but I don't think it is going 19 down to 30.
l 20 HR. DENTON:
It is something we just having 21 thought hard enough about to project out in that time.
22 We recognize that it is coming and we see the need to 23 maintain some centers of technical excellence I think in 24 headquarters in certain areas.
Also there could be some 25 skills in which you wouldn 't need but one of each of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 I
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tha t skill.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.
But I would sense that 3
rou are talking though about an NRR office, giving the 4
likely future that you now see, of being no more than 5
half the size of the current office and maybe even less.
6 HR. DENTON:
Yes, tha t is right.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is not that many 8
years away to really begin thinking seriously about what 9. kind of a glide path you are on to get there.
10 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
11 COEMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, and in terms.of 12 taking care of the people and also making sure that you 13 vill.have the skills that you need.
It is not too far f"
14 ahead to be thinking about individuals getting different 15 skills so we don't end up dropping off the cliff at some 16 point, not me because I won't be here.
17 (Laughter.)
10 HR. DENTON:
Well, that is true.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think your question is t
20 valid to look beyond this chart, but I don't think that l
21 we have examined it closely enough to try and say what 22 it is.
l 23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I think large private
(,
24 firms tend to think in these terms a good deal more I I
25 think than the government in terms of managing the l
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people they have and the skills and trying to think 2
ahead in terms of making sure that people are going to 3
have the skills that the company is going to need, and I 4
think we need to do a little more of that, in fact a S
good deal more of that.
That in a way is a point I was 6
trying to get at earlier.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I have got to say one 8
other thing.
In industry you have another vsriable, and 9
maybe ve. have got it here also, of how many orders you 10 have got.
You always have to make assumptions of how 11 many orders.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa That is true.
13 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Industry doesn't predict 14 quite that well.
I have been involved in trying to 15 predict and 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, some industries 17 do better than others.
18 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO But we have the same 19 problem.
We have to make assumptions about what is 20 going to happen with particular reactors.
21 ER. DIRCKS There is a five-year plan.
We 22 tried it a fev years ago and didn't work out because 23 there were so many variables, particularly TMI.
24 But, Len, you do have another five year plan u
25 in the offing.
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MR. BARRY:
We have a little exercise started 2
to do just what you are saying, to try to do a prognosis 3
of ---
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Well, I think the 5
question is well based that we ought to be looking.
I 6
think in one of our interim reviews, if we go to 7
quarterly, okay, or if we stick to semi-annual, that 8
would be a good time too look at what the situation 9
would be when we are not under the gun to get a 10 particular budget out.
11 HR. BARRY4 Yes, sir.
12 CHAIRHAN PALLADIN0s. I do think that is 13 something we should do.
14 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYs I think someone, and I 15. don't know whether it is personnel or who, ought to have 16 responsibility for looking at these questions across the 17 agency.
Maybe that is what your plan does.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s The staffing plan is more 19 short range.
The one I was talking about is what do we 20 do in the next year or two.
You are saying that we 1
21 should have a longer tera ---
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Just like our 23 inspectors, I mean we have got construction inspectors
(
24 and we are going to need inspectors in all of our 25 o pe ra ting reactors.
Well, we have got to think ahead 1
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and make sure that we are not throwing out construction 2
inspectors the minute a plant starts up and hiring up a 3
whole new crowd of inspectors.
If they have got to get 4
new skills, then this is the time to start developing 5
them.
6 HR. BARRYa As the Chairman said, the staffing 7
plan is a people plan, you know, wha t a re we going to do 8
with people.
The one that we are starting to work on is 9
a workload plan for the next five years.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY The top people of the 11 agency, and of course starting with the Commissioners, 12 have got to take responsibility for what happens to the 13 people in this agency.
14 COHHISSIONER AHEARNEa I have never noticed a 15 lack of it.
16 (Laughter.)
l l
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, I don 't know.
I 1
l 18 am not so sure.
I think in government generally there 19 is a tendency to take a sh o rt-ra ng e view of these 20 matters and let people just take care of themselves with 21 the managers not being accountable.
I think that is 22 w r o n g.'
23 COHHISSIONER AHEAENE:
I have not found that 24 in governmen t.
25 COHHISSIO N ER GILINSKY:
Well, I have, and I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. Q.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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have found it here, too.
2 CH AIRM AN P ALLADINO:
But we accept this 3
concept of looking ahead and trying to develop a plan or 4
how we see it coming and then based on that we can plan 5
personnel ceilings and the like.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think in this 7
particular case it is a lot more critical than it is in 8
the case of regionalization because in the 9
regionalization case there is a lot more flexibility in 10 wha t we do.
We are driving the action, and if problems 11 arise and you can't get an adequate transfer at a given 12 time we can modify that.
The question we a re discussing' 13 here is driven by external events, namely what is 14 actually going to be happen and how many plants are 15 going to get built and where are they in the pipeline.
18 I think since that is driven much more by events out of 17 our control that we have to try to do a lot more careful 18 long-range planning.
19 COHEISSIONER GIlINSKY:
There is one element 20 here for which I think we are responsible, and it is to 21 some extent within our control, and tha't is to try as 22 g e't as accurate estimates as we can.
I think in the 23 past there has been a tendency not to have accurate 24 estimates for a.whole bunch of reasons, but it turns out 25 it impacts on the staff.
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1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is the next point 2
I was about to get to, that the AEC, ERDA and the NRC 3
has, for whatever reason in the past, tended to, whether 4
they have wanted to or thought it was better policy to 5
be prepared, have tended to view the future growth more 6
optimistically or with higher numbers than actually 7
transpired in order to provide accurate resources and in 8
order to handle it if it did occur and I can see some 9
argument for doing that.
10 But in this kind of a plan looking ahead of 11 three, four or five years of where would the agency be, 12 I think there you ought to be taking the opposite view.
13 You ought to look at as pragmatic an approach and, if 14 anything, look on the down side because it is easier not 15 to go lower if you see three years ahead well you are 16 not going to have to get as low as you were beginning to 17 plan to than if you are going to have to go much lower.
18 NR. DENTON:
There are no resources in either 19
'83,
'84 or '85 for construction permits in this budget.
20 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I will be looking to see 21 when and if they put anywhere in the next five years a 22 plant coming in.
23 (Laughter.)
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So would I, but I 25 suspect we might have a different conclusion on that y
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data point.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I am not about to make a 3
prediction.
4 Excuse me, Jim.
Go ahead.
5 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
On this chart what 6
estimates were used in developing the projections of 7
resources for operating reactors and for casework in 8
terms of issuance of new licenses and schedules?
9 MR. DENTON:
For casework the current Beville 10 schedules were used.
Then I think there was an 11 adjustment made in the operating reactors.
12 ER. DIRCKSs For operating reactors we are 13 more pessimistic.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see, what was 15 the number?
I thought it was 88 or 89 at the end of
'83.
16 CHAIREAN PALLADINO:
Which number?
17 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY:
Operating reactors.
18 It. looked to me a little high.
19 HR. DENTON:
I think for operating reactors 20 the agency's own best estimates were used.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEABNE:
That is not what your 22 assumption says.
23 ER. DENTON:
Well, for casework we used the 24 Beville schedules.
My memory was for' operating reactors
- 25. We ended up using an agency estimate.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
When you say for 2
operating reactors you used th<e acency estimate, are you 3
saying that for licensing actions driven by operating 4
reactors?
5 HR. DENTON:
For the top line labeled 6
" Operating Reactors" which is the actions, yes, we used 7
the agency estimate.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But as far as operating 9
licensing when it is needed your major assumption that 10 ve got you used the applicant estimates?
11 HR. DENTON:
Yes.
For the casework decision 12 unit we used the applicant's dates.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Nhich is the Beville 14 requirement.
15 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Agency. estimates are 18 less optimistic.
17 HR. DIRCKS:
Oh, yes.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is the number of 19 operating reactors that you are predicting?
20 NR. DIRCKS:
Well, calendar year '82 ve are 21 estimating 10 construction completions."
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In '82?
23 HR. DIRCKS:
In
'82.
The applicant was 24 estimating 10 and we were estimating 7.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, let 's see, in ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,it4C, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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term of licenses the number is going to be smaller-than 2
that.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
For all of calendar
'82.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
For all of calenda r 5
'82.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0a I think there will be 7
about 7.
8 MR. DIRCKS:
About 7.
9 CONNISSIONER GILINSKY What are you 10 estimating for
'83.
11 HR. DIRCKS:
For '83 the staff estimate is 12.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And applicant?
13 MR. DIRCKS:
Fourteen.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
How about '84 then.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now are these 16 cumulative numbers?
For example, should I then add and 17 say by the end of '82 and '83 ve were estimating 19 and 18 the applicant was estimating 24?
19 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So it is cumulative.
21 MR. DIRCKS Right.
Those that don't get in 22
'83 vill be done in
'84, 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Would it be then fair l
24 to say that.if it actually ends up only at 7 then the 25 applicant estimate would be 177 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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MB. DIRCKS:
That is assuming that nothing 2
would slip from '83 to
'84.
('
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right.
So that if we 4
turn out to be right and it is 7, then the applicant 5
estimate instead of 14 ought to be 17.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO4 If the any of the 14 7
don't slip.
8 HR. DIRCKSa That is right.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADING:
Do you have a number for 10
'847 11 MR. DIRCKS.
The staff estimate is 13.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Do you have an g-13 applicant estimate?
14 HR. DIRCKS Ten.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
How many?
16 HB. DIRCKS4 Ten.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
They are going to get l
18 more out than they think.
l 19 HB. DIRCKS:
We are figuring on more slipping 20 into
'84.
21 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I was just checking.
22 Let's see, that is 34.
23 Do you have more questions, Jim?
24 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Just one rela ted to 25 that.
If you use the agency or the staff estimates for ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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casework as well would that make much of a difference or 2
is the idea basically to still continue with the NRR 3
reviews and just get them over with earlier than they 4
might be necessary?
5 HR. DENTON:
We look at look at it.
If you 6
assume that we are trying to avoid lost work, in order 7
words, complete the specific actions that are underway 8
such as development of Q-1's or writing the SER or 9
finishing the environmental impact statement, it is not 10 that big a difference as to which one you are using each 11 year.
It is a little less resources in
'83.
It is 12 about the same in '84 and it is more in
'85, and I think 13 Jessie has those numbers.
But that assumes that we 14 complete those phases we are on.
15 In in f act you just cancel activity you could 16 pick up more resources, but that then appears 17 inefficient because eventually you have to go back and 18 save it again.
19 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
I gather one of _the 20 questions you are answering for me is I had asked what 21-was.the resource implication across all'of the resources 22 that were applied if one were to use the NRC estimates, 23 and I would guess your answer then is going to be that 24 it doesn 't make that much difference.
25 MR. DENTON:
On the assumptions that I '; sed,
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that is right.
2 CONNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
It just shifts them 3
a little bit from one year to the other.
4 4
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me ask you of the 5
$40-off million in program support, how much of that is 6
an extension of the licensing function here?
In other 7
words, how much of that is being spent on contractors 8
reviewing parts of license applications?
9 HR. DENTON:
That would be the ---
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The 16 in the casework ?
11 HR. DENTON:
The casework would be thle 16.
12 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYs Does that include 13 amendments and all that sort of thing?
14 HR. DENTON:
No, that is up in the operating 15 reactors.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So can we say that 17 half of the operating reactors or some f raction, or is 18 it all of it?
19 HR. DENTON:
In
'83, for example, all the $10 20 million goes to work on processing operating actions.
~
21 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY:
So in other words, 22 there is another $25 million or so which is being spent 23 on contractors reviewing license applications?
24 HR. DENTON:
No, reviewing applications is ---
25 CONNISSIONER GILINSKYs Well, including ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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amendments.
2 MR. DENTON:
No, the casework then is 3
reviewing applications.
The 11.8 in
'83, for example, 4
is what goes direct 5
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Sorry, I was looking 6
at the
'82.
It is like the 10 plus 11.8.
7 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
Yes.
The 10 of 8
operating reactors and the 11.8 for casework.
9 HR. DENTON:
Yes.
10-COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Let's see, operating 11 licensing, the 4.7, is some of that spent in giving 12 exams or reviewing exams?
13 MR. DENTON:
That is correct.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa All of it?
15 HR. DENTONs All of it.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So there is another 55 17 million there.
Now is any of the rest of. the money 18 spent in conducting licensing functions?
19 NR. DENTON:
Well, it depends on whether you 20 call SEP a licensing function or not.
The safety 21 technology unit then is all in answering developmental 22 interests, which is not directly tied to licensing.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Right.
I am trying to 24 draw a distinction between actually reviewing a 25 submission from a licensee in connection with either a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 license application or an amendment application and 2
conducting other studies that are related to those.
3 HR. DENTON:
I think if you backed out the 4
safety technology that you wouldn't be far off.
All the 5
rest of the money goes to reviewing something provided 6
by a licensee.
7 CHAIRMAN PAL 1ADINO:
Except for management.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa So there are 300 9
people out there, 300 man-years out-there in addition to 10 the ones we have here that are working on license 11 applications of some sort or modifications.
12 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me ask you this.
(
14 How many persons within NRR are managing contracts?
I 15 vill tell you why I ask and I must say I am a little 16 concerned, well, I guess both man-years and persons, 17 that so much of our work has shifted over to managing l
18 contracts rather than doing the work internally.
l 19 HR. DENTON:'
Because of constraints on 20 internal staffing it has. been easier over the years to 21 go out.
So a large share of our casework review is done 22 by contractors.
Take operating licensing as a good 23 example.
We were unable to hire the people needed to 24 perform that function and that forced us to go out and 25 find people to administer the operator exams.
We just i
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could not get them in here and try to go through them.
2 We may be able to do better in the field, but even I 3
think Region III has had difficulty recruiting because 4
the skills are in such short supply and are valued so 5
highly b y ---
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do you have any 7
estimates f or either f ull-time equivalent or persons?
8 MR. DENTON:
We use a hundred thousand per 9
million.
10 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY:
I mean in terms of how 11 many persons in NRR are managing contracts.
12 ER. DENTON:
It would work out to about 40 13 peo ple.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
One per million or 15 something like th a t?.
16 MR. FUCHES:
That is the goal.
17 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY4 It is one man year per 19 million?
20 HR. FUCHES4 That is the goal, yes.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
On which side of it 22 are yo u?
23 NR. DENTON:
We are under.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY One person manages 25 more than a million?
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NR. DENTON:
In big contracts it is somewhat i
2 easier to manage.
One of our problems if we have got a 3
lot of small contracts and we have constantly tried to 4
consolidate them.
It is somewhat easier for one person 5
to manage Franklin, for example, than some of the small 6
little technical assistance contracts that we tend to 7
have.
8 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSa Is that one man year 9
per million, is that a magic number that is used 10 elsewhere in the government?
11 MR. DENTON:
I think it is used in the agency 12 as a goal.
It depends on the nature of the contract, I 13 am sure, but for ours I seems to be about what it takes g
14 for us to do an adequate job of overseeing the products 15 on that contract.
16 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE It is not, at least in 17 the Defense Department l
18 COHNISSIONER ROBERTS:
Well, do they.have any 19 similar yardstick?
I 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It depends, as I think
~
21 Harold ---
l l
22 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSa It depends on the
\\
23 nature.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE It really depends on 25 the nature of the contract and the type of contract that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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the work is being done.
Some small contracts with the 2
performanca being critical and it is very complex so you 3
need a lot closer management than on a larger contract 4
that is well defined and it is more routine work.
5 COHNISSIONEB GILINSKYs Let me ask you this.
6 Probably th.ere are parts of the agency where things are 7
a bit slack.
Can some of these contracts or some of 8
this work be done by people in those offices or in those 9
parts of the agency 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Which parts of the 11 agency did you have in mind, Vic?
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Well, I.was harking 13 back to the Chairman 's remarks earlier about staff 14 reduction.
15 MR. DENTON:
We don't have any that are slack 16 in the sense there is no work to be done within our 17 environmental area.
We have over the years ---
18 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY Well, I don 't mean 19 necessarily just in your office.
20 NR. DENTON:
We have reduced the amount of
~
21 contractual' assistance in order to keep the people that 22 ve do have in those fields fully employed.
I don't know 23 if that answers your question.
k,.
24 COMNISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, it sounds like l
25 you are doing it within your office.
I am just ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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wondering whether that has extended beyond and whether 2
you have taken a look at the rest of the agency.
I
('
3 guess I am asking are we making effective use of all the 4
people?
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
We certainly shouldn't be 6
contracting for work that could be done by some talent 7
tha t we are saying we aren 't utilizing.
8 MR. DENTONs And we are not.
9 CONNISSIONER GILINSKYa It sounds like you are 10 saying you have taken a look at your own office and you 11 have made sure that you are not, but I don ' t know 12 wh e the r. you have looked at other offices.
13 HR. DENTON:
We did this about a year ago 14 because it became obvious a while back, and let's take
'15 antitrust reviews.
We have I think four individuals who 16 do antitrust reviews.
You only do those at a certain 17 phase in the operation, and we do the environmental 18 impact statements.
So as casework d rops, or the amount l
19 of work to be done drops, and it is in those areas that 20 ve have adjusted the amount of outside help we needed so
~
21 that we keep those people busy.
22 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYa I will tell you why I 23 press on this.
Program support money is relatively i
24 speaking plentiful and it is relatively easy to sign 189 25 letters.
Personnel problems are very difficult to deal i
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with and we all know that.
It is very sticky and there 2
are all sorts of problems.
That is true in every 3
organization that it takes a lot of work to get to full 4
use of people throughout an organization, particularly 5
if you are not directly in charge of those people and so 6
on.
I think we need to make that effort, and I gather 7
ve have been making it to a certain extent, but it 8
sounds to me like we could do more.
9 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Let me ask a question.
10 How many more questions do the Commissioners have on 11 NBB?
I am trying to gauge on where ---
12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Are you going to break 13 for lunch?
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I want to break for lunch 15 now.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We are going to break 17 for lunch!
18 (Laughter.)
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I want to break right now.
20 CONEISSIONER GILINSKY:
You and I ---
~
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
Unless I sense there is 23 only one more question.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No, I have more.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s You have several.
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I suggest we break for lunch.
When we come 2
back we will finisn on NRR and proceed with the rest of 3
the paper.
4 So we vill break for lunch now and reconvene 5
at 2:30.
6 (Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m, the meeting 7
recessed, to reconvene at 2:30 p.m.,
the same day.)
8 9
10 11 12 13 C
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 l
B l
24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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AFTERNOON SESSION 2
(2:30 p.m.)
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The meeting will please 4
come to order.
5 This is a continuation of our budget meeting.
6 As we indicated, we might have to continue into the 7
afternoon.
He were discussing the subject of nuclear 8
reactor regulation and we were entertaining questions on 9
reactor regulation.
We vill now go ahead with the 10 questions from the various Commissioners.
11 I think Commissioner Asselstine was in the 12 process of asking questions and we might as well let him 13 continue.
f 14 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
No, I think I 15 covered all I had.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
All right.
17 Commissioner Roberts or Commissioner Ahearne?
18 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
No.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Let me hear about SEP 20 and IREP and NREP.
I recognize IREP is the Research 21 Office program, but could you give a short description 22 of how you currently see this flowing along, if flowing 23 is the right word.
I 24 MR. DENTON:
We have completed two of the SEP 25 plants, Ginna and Palisades and have ACRS input.
We are ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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just finishing how three BWR's.
We have lumped the 2
three together.
We propose to come to the Commission in 3
a couple of mon ths with a progra m that would address 4
whether or not we should continue the SEP program into 5
Phase III, and at that time propose how it would be 6
integrated with NEEP and IREP.
I think the Commission 7
has decided, or the last time we discussed this, that 8
they wanted CRGB comments on SEP Phase III.
9 So our present approach is to finish 10 throughout this year and into next year those plants 11 which we started with the original Phase II, but we are 12 making no moves into Phase III until we brief the 13 Commission on the results of Phase II and its cost and 14 benefits from the public standpoint.
15 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
What is the budget 16 based on?
17 HR. DENTON:
In it based on in NRR's case a 18 level of effort ongoing of 36 people.
19 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
So you are saying that l
20 there is no explicit or implicit judgment as to what 21 will happen on SEP Phase III, but there is a level of 22 effort funding which could accommodate the SEP Phase III 23 if it were necessary?
l 24 NR. DENTON:
I think that is a fair reading of 25 it, yes.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It was a little unclear 2
to me in reading on Palisades and Ginna that when you 3
say you have completed the SEP for those two plants as 4
to what extent is this going to flow over into any large 5
licensing actions.
It seems to me more ending up on 6'
items to discuss.
7 MR. DENTON:
Some of those Phase II plants 8
have provisional operating licenses and that vil'1 form 9
part of the basis for going to hearing and convert those 10 to full-term operating licenses.
.So there are some 11 remaining israes like USI's that will have to be folded 12 lato the staff review, but that would form the basis for 13 moving toward a full-term operating license for some of
(~
14 those very old plants.
15 The first two plants, too, we and the 16 companies came to an agreement over what kind of fixes 17 would probably be necessary.
So it didn't result in any 18 regulatory actions.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Have you assumed 20 similarly as far as the resource implications of 21 finishing up the rest of the other nine SEP plants?
22 MR. DENTON We have modified the estimates a 23 little bit based on the experience that we gained from
(
24 these two, but as to the level of effort, we really 25 haven't tried to.
We vill just shift the number of ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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105 1
plants around that would get in the program.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is there any type of 3
planning that you have at least internal to your office 4
for the follow-on work that would have led to the need 5
f or substantially more than 36 people?
I don't ask that 6
because I have some document here.
I am just trying to 7
understand when you talk about level of effort.
8 MR. DENTON:
I think it. was our f eeling that 9
since we were able to find rough comparability with 10 those old plants at the same level of effort for another 11 batch of them, we also see that if there is a Phase III 12 that there will be fewer topics in dispute.
In other
~
words, there were about 90 topics we had been assigned' 13
~
14 for the Phase II plants.
Because of the timing of 15 those, we think there would only about 45 topics that 16 need to be pursued for the next generation.
So we-think 17 in. general there would be less topics to look into.
18 Now if you are asking a broader question of 19 what is on the safety horizon that might change it, I 20 would say it would be the safety goal and where you 21 would put the operating level and the design objective, 22 because some of these older plants do have PR A's that 23 have been produced, like Big Rock Point, in association 24 with their SEP program.
25 MR. DIRCKS:
Just to make sure we are clear, 1
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the level of effort includes movinq into Phase III 2
unless sto ped.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
I have'been, as 4
you know, a very strong supporter of the program, but 5
nevertheless putting on a budget hat I still have to ask 6
the question.
You have been allocated a level of effort 7
of 36 in the outyears.
Does th'at represent your 8
judgment that the safety benefits of the SEP program are 9
such that it warrants that sizeable amount of staff 10 years?
11 HR. DENTON:
Based on the first two, I think 12 it has been a cost effective program.
It cost us 13 several million dolla
. do those programs.
It cost 14 the applican'ts, excluding seismic, it cost them several 15 million dollars in changes.
But almost everything that 16 ve found the applicants were quick to agree with you 17 that. that is an area that needs to be strengthened.
18' The most expensive area it has turned out fr'em 19 the applicant's point of view to be the seismic s
\\'
20 extreme.
That is a big ticket item and has cost the 21 applicants a lot of money.
So I am coming to the 22 conclusion based on those two that it has been cost s
23 effective from a societal point of view.
Whether it
(
24 vill continue to be as we move further and further more 25 toward more recently plants or not I think is an open l
^
l question, but I think certainly for Phase II it will l
s ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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/-
/
r,!
1 be.
My own feeling is it will be until we bump into 7
2 plants that were reviewed under the Standard Review Plan s
3 more or less consistently.
I think certainly there is 4
this relationship between SEP and safety goal that will 5
shape the views toward these old plants.
6 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
But you are satisfied 7
at the moment that five percent of your. effort is
- 8e appropr'ately allocated?
i
'9
(
KR. DENTON:
We have found things that would
/,
10 not have been found and fixed through the normal
.I
',f
/
,/
11 operatidg a'ctions procedure.
I have asked a nuabar of
',12 ' experts 'in the field to give me their view on continuing 13 into Phase III and we vill have that available when we
(,,)
14 brief the Commission on tha t.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You meaa outside 18 experts?
17 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
18 lCONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Could you say a few 19 words about the generic issues?
One of the problems of 20 reviewing budgets is you end up ha ving a variety of
~
l 21 pieces of paper which were generated at different 22 times.
So there is one set of papers that listed 23 generic issues in NRR at a staffing of 38 as the office
(
24 request in FI
'84, and then a later one I think dropped 25 it down to 18 in FY-84.
It wasn't clear to me whether ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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the category had stayed the same and there had been a 2
revised estimate or what the situa tion was.
3 So could you tell ne what it was that you had 4
recommended for generic issues and where the final 5
budget came out?
6 HR. DENTON:
Let me try to summarize it, and I 7
might have to ask Jessie for some assistance.
Let's set 8
aside for a moment the human factors program plans being 9
a separate issue to deal with and just talk about what I 10 call generic issues.
11 There are three classes of generic issues that 12 we have budgeted for in this time f rame and I know they 13 get. confusing at times.
14 One class are those high priority 0660 items, 15 and these are not in the human factor group, but ther 16 are two of those issues that were high priority that we 17 have been working on and are continuing to be worked on.
18 Then there are a class of items that used to 19 be called the "A"
through "D" items tha t were budgeted i
20 last year.
There was soee level of effort into those.
~
21 We are continuing to work on those items, and there are l
22 perhaps a dozen of those generic issues that used to be i
23 called "A"
through "D"
that are budgeted.
1
(
24 Then there are the 0660 issues that we worked 25 on in 1982 that were non-human factors and also non-high ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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priority.
You remember we deliberately went into some 2
of those 0660's inst year even though they weren't high 3
priority.
These were issues like containment purging 4
and 2E-4 in the action plan.
5 Out of those three classes of generic issues 6
there are about 20 man-years I think budgeted it:
'83, 7
and I will have to turn to Jessie to see if that 8
comports to the numbers you have quoted.
9 ER. FUCHES:
I think the difference between 10 the two numbers you see in the cross cut of generic 11 issues which shows 18 and then also there is a human 12 factors program plan which is 20, that if you look at 13 the regular budget submission which shows generic issues 14 there is 38 and it is the sum.
The human factor plan is 15 included in the g'eneric issues in the regular budget.
16 So you add the two together to get the 38.
So there is 17 no reduction there.
There should be generic issues not 18 factored in.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So that, for example, l
20 Jessie, in the cross cut the human f actors development 21 activities was elsewhere in generic issues.
22 HR. FUCHES It was generic issues in the 23 regular legislation.
We separated the two out here in
(
24 the cross cut.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Now you mentioned there ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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in response to a question on human factors plan, and I 2
noticed tha t your chart had ' technical resolution for the 3
issues identified in the long-range human factors plan.
(
4 That is a document which has had many versions and was 5
cycled many times.
Are you finally coming to a final 6
human factors plan?
7 HR. DENTONs Yes, we are.
The re is a pla n 8
tha t we have given to the other offices and to the ACES 9
and it is undergoing senior level review now within the 10 agency and regional input.
So I would it wouldn't be 11 too long before I could get it to the EDO and he can 12 transmit it down.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is based on that
[
14 that the numbers are there.
15 NR. DENTON:
That is right.
16 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess that puts us in 17 an interesting situa tion.
What we have in front of us 18 is a budget to approve with the resource numbers which 19 support a plan which we have not yet seen.
20 HR. DENTON:
The only thing I think about that 21 is that the resolution of this one depends mainly on 22 dollars.
In other words, we have only budgeted 13 or 14 23 people to work on it, and I think it is the equivalent E
24 of 46 people that we have gotten budgeted in dollars, 25 some 53 to $4 million.
So it is anticipated that the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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bulk of those items in the human f actors plan will be 2
done by contract assistance.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess then I am 4
puzzled.
The chart has 20 people and 54 million.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Which one are you looking 6
a t?
7 COEMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am looking 8
HR. FUCHES:
You are talking different years.
9 He was talking about '83 and you are talking about
'84.
10 COEHISSIONER AHEARNE:
Oh, okay.
I was 11 talking about
'84.
Yes, 13 people in
'83.
I was
~
12 looking at the cross cut chart.
13 MR. DENTON:
As I mentioned to the Chairman 14 that.when we vent through this, this is the one area 15 that it is hard to know precisely what to budget for 16 until we have an approved plan.
This is the people who 17 put the. plan together and we are reflecting their 18 estimate.
If the plan is approved as stands, that is 19 about the bite of resources that it would take to do it.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now since you have been 21 through the plan, I guess at the present time you must 22 have some rough estimate of some of the major debates 23 about it.
Can you give me an estimate of what is the I
24 possible uncertainty in the required numbers?
Could it 25 be double that?
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CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Jessie has a comment.
2 HR. FUCHES:
I would say it couldn't be double 3
tha t.
It could be 20 percent higher or it could be 20 4
percent lover, but I think it is a good ball-park 5
estimate, if you will.
6 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Another question which 7
may or may not be an NRR question, so I will start with 8
you, Bill, is we have' had a value impact analysis issue 9
in front of the Commission for at least a year and 10 several years in general, but over the last year you had 11 a paper up and there has been some discussion.
OPE 12 commented and I commented on it, and there still is some 13 question I gather as to how the agency is going to go 14 about doing value impact analyses.
15 Can you give me an estimate of embedded in 18 this budget what are the resources for value impact 17 analyses based upon the approach taken?
18 HR. DIRCKS:
I think the lastest time the 19 Commission spoke on this subject was in the review of 20 the CRGR charter and we had established a cost l
~
21 estimating f unction within the agency.
22 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right.
23 HR. DIRCKS We have gone through a couple of 24 iterations and a couple of reviews.
At one point in l
25 meeting with Harold and Vic Stello and the other l
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concerned officers, we thought if we centralized that 2
activity into Harold's office they would perform this 3
service for the other offices.
When we got the initial 4
budget estimate of what it would take to do this in a 5
centralized way, it included about sir or seven staff 6
years and a million or so dollars.
Maybe I am wrong in 7
the dollars.
8 We said, well, the first year, in order to do 9
this thing for the first year we suggested that the 10 other offices absorb the manpower requirements within 11 their offices and asked Harold to assign one sta'ff year 12 to this effort and act as a central contract management 13 group for the agency and we estimated a million dollars 14 in contract work.
15 So the way it is going to work and the way we 16 would like to see it work is that the offices in 17 proposing requirements would essentially in connection 18 with their requirements estimate the cost, do the l
19 benefit calculation and if they needed contractual 20 assistance to supplement their efforts to go into 21 Harcid's office and have that act as a service agency in 22 the contractual area.
In the meanwhile Harold would l
23 cover NRR needs using the one staff year and the million 24 dollars contractual fund.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.
Is that '837 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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BR. DIRCKSs
'83, yes.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 What does the budget 3
assume for '83 and
'84.
4 HR. DIRCKS:
The same.
5 BR. BARRYs The same.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 So not only initially 7
but then for the next three years ---
8 HR. DIRCKS4 Three years, yes.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now I guess I am not to clear, did you think that the people who had made the 11 estima te of the six to seven staff years were grossly 12 overestimating what was necessary?
13 HR. DIRCKS:
No, I don't think they were 14 grossly overestimating.
I think the conclusion we came 15 to is if NRR was trying to do this for all the other 16 offices that he was estimating five to six staff years.
17 Looking at it again and in rethinking it we thought part 18 of.the process should be for those offices that do the 19 estimating and do the requirements prosing should also 20 dedicate some resources to estimating what the cost 21 impact would be as well as the benefit accrual.
It was 22 the resource estimate that came back and caused us to 23 rethink the approach.
24 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE You said tha t it was 25 Harold's estimate of five to six.
Did you ask Len what ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202; 554 2345
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his estimate would be if that was located in the 2
resource office?
3 HR. DIRCKS4 Resources Management?
4 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
5 HR. DIRCKS4 I don't know.
6 HR. BARRY:
We looked at it and thought the 7
estimate was pretty good.
8 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Of five to six people?
9 HR. BARRY:
Of five to six people, yes.
So 10 what we really did was traded off five or six people for 11 one person and s million dollars.
12 ER. DIRCKS:
And used the manpower, the 13 staff power in the other offices.
14 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE But in the past the 15 agency hadn't really been doing so good a job in making 16 cost estimates.
17 HR. BARRYs Right.
18 HR. DIRCKS:
That is true.
In connection with 19 that I think we have got to look at the new sort of i
l 20 discipline that the CRGB has imposed on the whole
~
21 proposed.
22 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, making the 23 requirement that the cost estimate be done isn't k
24 necessarily going to produce good cost estimates.
25 HR. DIRCKS:
No, but the discipline that you ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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get when you face a group like that committee is a large 2
incentive to do a better job on cost estimating.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think that is all the 4
NRR questions I have.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I was going to ask one 6
question for the record, Harold.
Looking at this chart 7
it shows the THI clean-up runs out of steam in ' 8 t4 and 8
'85.
I think we should indicate what is happening there 9
so that one doesn't get the impression that the TMI 10 clean-up is no longer an ites of concern to the 11 Commission.
12 MR. DENTON:
The responsibility is transferred 13 to the region in
'84.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
And what would the 15 numbers be for the region?
Do you have that handy?
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, it is 19, as I 17 recall.
18 M,R. DENTON:
I think it is essentially 19 unchanged.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Right now we have, 22 according to.this chart, 20 staff years in '82 and 23
$300,000.
24 HR. DENTON:
It comes down slightly in '83 25 where we are projecting the need.
As we produce ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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documents and cafety evaluation reports we could cut 2
down to essentially the people at the island.
I think 3
it is the position in '84 that it would be run by the 4
people who are presently there and it wouldn't need the 5
heavy headquarters special attention that it has had in 8
the past.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But if they do need some 8
additional help by headquarters would you be in a 9
position to provide it making reasonable assumptions?
10 HR. DENTON:
I would still consider it a high 11 priority ites.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think it is important 13 to indicate that we are not eliminating the activity.
14 MR. DENTON:
My memory was that the actual 15 number of people at Middletown involved was unchanged as 18 a result of this and we were just regionalizing ---
17 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, some where in one 18 of these charts there is a summary chart that shows the i
19 total involved in THI.
t 20 MR. BARRY:
Page 38 on the cross cut.
21 HR. DIRCKSa What you see in the total from l
22
'83 to '84 is the total goes from 28 to 20.
The 23 reotonal effort goes from 11 to 19.
l 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You had 31 in '82 and 25 you go to 28 in '83 and then 19 in
'84.
l l
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HR. DIRCKS:
Twenty total.
Are you talking 2
about NRR or are you talking about ---
3 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am talking about page 4
38 says 19.
5 ER. DIRCKS:
Are you talking totals?
6 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, this is the cross 7
cut.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
It is the cross cut I 9
have also.
10 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Do you have a different 11 cross cut?
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I should point out on 13 these cross cuts that we were discovering some anomalies 14 and that there were differences in the way people had 15 rated them.
16 HR. BARRT:
We have been doing cross cuts 17 every day and this is today's and it has just gone up 18 one.
19 (Laughter.)
20 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
I see.
Just in '847
~
21 HR. DIRCKS The totals along the bottom, it 22 should read in fiscal '82 it is 31, in fiscal '83 it is 23 28, in fiscal '80 it is 20 and in fiscal '85 it is 20.
24 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
So it did go up one.
25 HR. BARRY:
Yes.
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COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
They have stayed the 2
same, but just the paperwork.
3 CHAIBHAN PALLADIN0s Well, shall we go on ts 4
the next topic, slide 7.
Actually I should point out 5
that Slides 7, 8 and 9 all relate to material safety and 6
safeguards.
Slide 7 summarizes total resources for 7
material safety and safeguards both in the headquarters 8
and in the regions.
It also lists the major planned 9
accomplishments to be implemented in headquarters, both 10 headquarters staffing level and program support decrease 11 steadily through fiscal year 85 and decreases in NMSS 12 are due mostly to increased regionalization, fewer fuel 13 facilities licensing reviews, decreased reactor k.
14 safeguard licensing casework and completion of 15 high-level vaste disposal regulation.
I think that is 16 the essence of Slide 7.
17 You might want to look a t Slide 8 in 18 conjunction with it and then Slide 9 and then pose 19 questions.
20 Slide 8 highlights the major planned 21 accomplishments for material safety and~ safeguards to be 22 performed in the regions.
The regionalized activities 23 vill be primarily in the areas of uranium recovery, 24 materals licensing, safeguards license amendments, fuel 25 fabrication amendments and transportation route surveys ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
120 1
and contingency plans.
2 Ihen Slide 9 shows the breakdown in terms of 3
decision units.
Resources are spread fairly evenly 4
among the NHSS decision units and remain about level 5
through fiscal
'84.
The only substantial decrease is 6
uranian recovery licensing and to a lesser extent 7
materials licensing.
8 He have Dr. Davis here and Jim O'Reilly to 9
respond to any questions on NESS.
10 Do you want to start?
11 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE I had just basically 12 one question.
I had asked a series of questions and I 13 got the ansvers right af ter lunchtime and I went through s
14 them very quickly.
So I may come back with more 15 questions to you, Bill.
But one one of them I had 16 noticed that under "Haterials Licensing" the office 17 program request for '84 was 44.3 staff years and the 18 Chairman 's recommeda tion was 26 and there is a 19 substantial reduction.
20 So I had asked if it is based.upon 21 regionalization does the significant drop indicate a 22 disagreement between NHSS headquarters and EDO or the 23 Chairman as to how many people are needed a t
(
24 headquarters, or is it that the NHSS budget was based on 25 a slower pace of regionalization.
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(
1 Now the answer I received is the difference 2
between the request and recommedation is that NHSS would 3
prefer a slower pace of regionalization to. balance 4
potential personnel difficulties.
Personnel 5
accommodations will be considered as regionalization 6
proceeds.
l 7
So, John, would you care to address that?
8 MR. DAVISs Well, we preferred, and I would 9
have to describe it as a much slower early years in 10 regionalization.
Part of it had to do with the 11 personnel involved, and that is a fairly large group of 12 people.
But in addition to that, we felt there were 13 some other issues that perhaps with a little more time 14 would become a little clearer.
For example, some of the 15 numbers which are used of course are based on our work 16 factors which ara'the issuance of licenses in a high 17 centralized organiation, and I am not entirely certain 18 what that does when you move it outside.
19 Another thing of course is we vill be charged 20 with developing a national program overview. function.
21 So what I had proposed is that we move in slower to give 22 the headquarters office time to take care of it.
23 COHNISSIONER AHEARNEa Bill, can you say why 24 you disagreed?
25 MR. DIRCKSs I don't think I did disagree.
I I
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agreed basically.
2 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Joe, can you say why 3
you disagreed?
4 CHAIRHAN PAL 1ADINO I don't think I disagreed.
5 (Laughter.)
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I think the one place I 7
did make a change was in NHSS.
Now I am trying to find 8
out what page you are referring to in here and where the 9
question arises.
10 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
I as talking about page 11 5 of the NHSS program office request.
There is the 12 materials licensing category.
13 HR. DAVIS I have the number you are talking
('
14 about.
15 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE4 I asked specifically 16 about that and I have just been given the answer.
The 17 answer was that here is why you felt this shouldn't have 18 happened.
I asked Bill why it did happen, and he said 19 vell, he didn't disagree with you and the Chairman 20 didn't disagree with you.
21 HR. DAVIS:
I was referring to a different set 22 of numbers.
Basically the bulk of that was to ask for 23 some people to reduce a materials licensing backlog, 24 about an 11 to 12 years material licensing backlog.
25 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY:
Eleven to 12 years?
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now wait.
That is a 2
separate issue.
Please, if I could at least just 3
initially focus on this.
I asked a question.
I have a 4
written answer.
5 (Laughter.)
6 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now I am not so naive 7
as to believe.what the written answer means.
8 (Laughter.)
9 COHHISSIONER A.lEARNE:
However, I do have a 10 written answer and it doesn 't say anything about backlog.
11 HR. DIRCKS:
Wait a minute.
We had better 12 give you the written answer, whatever it is.
You wrote 13 it, I guess.
14 COHEISSIONER AHEARNEa I will read it.
15 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Read the question first.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I will read the 17 question.
The question is under materials licensing 18 there is a sizeable reduction in the program office 19 request.
That is this reduction 20 HR. O 'REILLY a Excuse me, Commissioner, is
~
21 that the regional ~ request?
22 COHHISSIONER AHEARNEa No, this is the program 23 office request.
If this is based upon regionalization, 24 does the significant drop indicate a disagreement 25 between NHSS headquarters and the EDO or Chairman as to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
124 l
1 how many people are needed at headquarters, or is it 2
that the NHSS budget was based upon a slower pace of 3
regionaliza tion?
That was my question.
4 The written answer I had is the difference 5
between the office request and recommendation under 6
materials licensing is that NHSS would prefer a slower 7
pace of regionalization to balance potential personnel 8
difficulties.
Personnel accommoda tions. will be 9
considered as regionalization proceeds.
10 Now the answer, John, that you just gave, 11 focused somewhat on personnel difficulties, but also 12 mentioned the difference in the workload factors, 13 different centralization, regionalization and then also 14 backlog.
Both Bill and the Chairman say they didn't 15 disagree with you, and now I am really puzzled (a) as to 16 wha t the reason is, and (b) what the right number should 17 be.
18 HR. DAVIS:
Our first request for materials 19 license was 44.3.
Is that the number?
20 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is the number that
~
21 is in the book.
22 HR. DAVIS:
In March it was 26.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
March was what?
(
24 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Are you talking 25 about '84 or '837 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE.. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
125 1
HR. DAVIS:
'84.
2 CHAIRHAM PALLADINO:
That is richt.
3 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
In March it was 26.
4 HR. DAVIS:
Where that came f rom, that 5
particular number came from, the biggest piece of it was 6
a request to cut our backlog in materials licensing.
7 That was our original request.
We have about a 10-year 8
backlog, staff year in materials licensing, and a major 9
portion of that was to reduce that backlog.
10 COHNISSION ER GILINSKY :
What does'that mean?
11 What is the backlog, initial applications or renewals?
12 HR. DAVIS:
They are all types of applications 13 and when they come in we cannot process them.
14 CONNISSIONER GILINSKY:
How long does it take?
15 HR. DAVIS:
Forty-five days which is our goal.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How long does it take 17 to process them?
18 HR. DAVIS:
It usually takes us about 90 days 19 to process on the average.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So you were going to l
21 inject some staff years in order to bring that down to 22 45 days?
23 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
From 90 days.
t 24 HR. DAVIS:
Right.
l 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Are they all done by I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
~.
I hand?
2 HR. DAVIS:
At the present time.
If you will 3
notice in the budget there is an item in there that 4
speaks to improvement of the material licensing 5
process.
What that is to do is to try to move this from 8
a manpower intensive effort to a less manpower intensive 7
effort.
That would start about
'85.
An outfall from 8
tha t. we had hoped would be to eat off the backlog plus 9
give us some efficiencies.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I thought we were 11 going to put these all on computers.
12 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I thought we were going 13 to start it so we could reduce the manpower in
'84.
14 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is this just the sort 15 of thing you want to put on some computer system?
18 NR. DAVIS:
That is exactly what this effort 17 3s to try to do, and the money goes down in
'84.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I thought the emphasis 19 was to get that underway in '83 so that one could reduce 20 the manpower needs in '84 Now if you say that isn't i
21 so, then we used the wrong assumptions.'
22 MR. DAVIS:
No, that is correct.
23 COEHISSIONER GILINSKYa What are we doing in 24 tha t direction?
What is it that you have planned?
l 25 MR. DAVISs What we have planned now is, one, ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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127 1
ve have an effort to first speed up the process in-house 2
by the use of more data equipment rather than hand do 3
it.
4 Secondly, we have an effort underway to relook 5
at the requirments so that by changing the requirements 6
ve believe we can get better information from the 7
licensees, simpler information which to process.
8 Third, we are relooking at revising the 9
application form so that it is easier machine read.
10 There are a series of operations to try to get that 11 under control.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Are you saying that you 13 have or will put out or contract in '83 to device to 14 some improved software?
15 ER. DAVIS:
It is a continuation process.
16 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is the assumption that 17 it will be successful?
18 MR. DAVIS:
We assume it will be successful, 19 yes.
i l
20 CONMISSIONER AHEARNE.
But if the assumption 21 is that it will be successful, then why~did you ask for 22 the additional people in '84 to do it by hand?
23 ER. DAVIS:
We asked for the additional people 24 in '84 to give us time to get it in place.
Besides
.25 that, it is not just a matter of backlog, but it is also g
9 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
128 1
a matter of incoming applications.
We get about 3,000 2
or 3,500 of these applications a year.
So consequently 3
ve have to handle the application flow plus take care of 4
the backlog.
5 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY How many licenses are 6
there altogether?
7 ER. DAVIS:
About 9,000.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see, you get 9
3,000 a year and there are 9,000 10 HR. DAVIS:
We get applications for either new 11 licenses, changes or amendments.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh, I see.
13 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
John, do the regions 14 participate in handling any of that backlog?
15 MR. DAVIS 4 They will.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Because in '84 there is a 17 significant increase in the number of people, staff 18 years in the regions for materials safety and safeguards 19 activities.
20 MR. DAVIS:
The way we have it arranged with 21 the regions at the present time is tha t~ the backlog 22 stays at headquarters as we begin to move out, but we 23 vill work that backlog out using the new system.
24 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Let me go back then to 25 an earlier question on backlog.
It sounded like really ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON D C. 20024 (202) 554+2345 '
129 1
it is the difference between 45 days and 90 days.
Are 1
2 there some of these licenses that actually last years?
3 MR. DAVIS:
That is an average.
We have some 4
license applications which are in excess of six months 5
at least.
Some may go years, but I don't believe so.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Are a number of these 7
timely renewals?
8 MR. DAVIS:
Some of these are timely 9
renewals.
We are trying to work off the timely 10 renewals, yes, sir.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
There was a reduction
(,
12 of 18 people from the request, 18 staff years from the 13 request.
The Chairman has said he agreed with the EDO.
14 So I guess it was an EDO decision to reduce the 18 staff 15 years.
16 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
17 MR. DAVISs Now all those staff years were not 18 backlog.
About half of tha t was backlog.
We had other 19 requests is for increased operational data review and l
l 20 more training.
l 21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:.You are saying 22 basically that a million dollars will have a substantial 23 impact on the ---
24 MR. DAVIS:
Well, it is really more than a 25 million that is spread over a couple of years.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VISGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTONJ D.CJ+20024 (2021554 2343 V
130 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY4 A couple of million 2
dollars.
3 ER. DAVISs Right, sir.
That is our 4
anticipation.
5 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY4 We have had this 6
conversation every year.
7 MR. DAVISa For about 30 years I believe.
8 (Laughter.)
9 CONNISSIONER GILINSKY4 Not you and I.
10 (Laughter.)
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It used to be Mr.
12 Kennedy who used to raise this all the time, and I feel 13 a certain obligation ---
i 14 (Laughter.)
15 NR. DAVIS:
This is in reaction to that 16 attention that we want to focus in on and hopefully we 17 will move this ahead.
Now the staff is very 18 enthusiastic about the plans for this and I really think 19 this in association with regionalization will do away 20 with this persistent problem of by-product material 21 overuse.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Can we back though to 23 those 18 staff years.
I am just trying to find out what 24 it is that you would have done with those 18 that.the 25 EDO has concludad that you need not do?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20C24 (202) $54 2345
131 1
HR. DAVIS:
I would do more of a lot of things 2
that I am going to do less of.
3 (Laughter.)
4 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is about as 5
informative as the answer I have in writing here,-but I 6
would like a little bit more specifics.
7 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I guess.he has a 8
much larger incentive to make sure this new system works.
9 HR. DAVIS:
That is one, but we were 10 developing national program area management.
When the 11 regions go out to the field, we are working towards a 12 system to formalize how do we appraise to be certain 13 that.the licenses e.re issued with adequate regard to i
14 technical adequacy and consistency.
I thought that it 15 would take more manpower than the.EDO thought.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Were you making the same 17 assumption as the EDO about the new procedures for 18 handling the materials licensing activities?
I think
~
the assumption was made that those would be established 19 20 in '83 and that they would begin to bear fruit in '84 so 21 that the staff years required would go down.
22 Now you may have assumed that this wouldn 't be 23 as perfect a match and therefore needed additional 24 staff.
I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but 25 that is the way I understood it.
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
o 132 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Lest this be viewed as 2
quibbling about some small marginal difference, this is
~
3 a 40 percent reduction in the request on an item.
It is 4
not a small difference.
A 40 percent reduction has to 5
sean substantial changes in what was estimated would be 6
done.
7 HR. DAVIS:
The major piece of that is the 8
backlog control.
Then there was this national program 9
management, to set up a program for that.
The other was 10 to provide technical assistance to the regions.
11 Now you must recognize that national program 12 management we have no experience in.
Technical 13 assistance to the regions, it has not been provided on I
~
14 the basis of their doing licensing out there.
So we 15 don 't know wha t tha t vill be.
We have operational data 16 review, and I was going to upgrade operational data 17 review, and the basis of what Bill told me was to keep 18 it what it is, and I can live with keeping it what it t
19 is.
Then we were looking at some increase in training.
20 Then the rest was cutting the backlog.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Bill, I have then two 22 questions for you.
23 First, why did you conclude that reducing the I
24 backlog was not ---
(
i 25 5R. DIRCKS:
This particular activity has ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
S33 I
about 12 dif ferent items in it.
The biggest one is the i
2 backlog issue.
I think the office request was for 23.6 3
man-years that was cut to 13.8.
Essentially what we are 4
doing is rather than staff up with. f ederal employees to 5
reduce this backlog, we are hoping and betting that the 6
new system could deal with this backlog in fiscal '84 7
and
'85.
That is ten.
8 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is the issue I 9
vanted to raise.
So it is basically that John is saying 10 he was putting people in to carry through during this 11 interia period, and you might sa y it is a hedge against 12 it not working, and you are betting it will work.
13 MR. DIRCKS I an hoping it will work.
I am
(
14 just saying let's grit our teeth and live with the 15 backlog for about another year or so until it does work.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs The second question I 17 had is why does this written answer that I was provided 18 bear absolutely no resemblance to the explanation that 19 has just been given?
I don 't expect an answer ---
20 HR. DIRCKS:
I have no idea right now.
21 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE4 In a follow-up 22 corollary should I place equivalent confidence in any of 23 the other ansvers?
24 NR. DIRCKS:
I got them this morning.
So I 25 vill have to read them, too, to see how much confidence ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345.
~.
Y 134 1
I have.
2
( La u gh t e r.')
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0a Do you have more 4
questions?
5 COMNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Not right now.
CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Jim?
S 7
COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE I have just one 8
question.
The staff years for '82 to '83 for NHSS goes 9
from 320 to 308, a reduction of 12.
Then there are a i
10 number of accomplishments that are projected on page 7.
11 Apart f rom some of those, a re there other things that 12 are being done that will enable you to go from 320 to 13 308 without comparable reductions in what you are doing,
~
14 or are there areas where you have to reduce what you are 15 now doing in order to accommodate that reduction of 12 16 staff years?
17 MR. DAVIS:
The largest portion of that is the l
l 18 reduction in casework, in fuel cycle licensing and in l
l 19 safeguards plant l'ife as opposed to reactor licensing.
20 We also recognize there is a turndown in the effort
~
21 required for regulation writing in fuel cycle 22 saf eg ua rd s.
There is one delay associated with it, and 23 that is the delay in perfo,rmance or regulatory 24 effectiveness reviews where we have basically slid into 25 outyears the number we had originally projected.
I l
ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345'
135 1
COMNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
How many people is 2
that involved in staff years?
3 MR. DAVISa That is less than one for that 4
particular one.
5 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE4 So othe r than that 6
one or less than one or fraction of one staff year, all 7
the balance is taken care of by reductions essentially 8
in caseload?
9 HR. DAVIS:
And in overhead.
10 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
That is the only 11 question I have in NHSS.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Tom?
CONNISSIONER ROBERTS:
No.
13 14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I wonder if we could go 15 on then to inspection and enforcement.
Here again we 16, have slides 10, 11 and 12 that relate to inspection and 17 enforcement.
18 Slide 10 shows the total resources in terms of 19 staff years and program support for IEE.at headquarters 20 and in the regions.
Also listed are the major planned
~
21 accomplishments to be performed at headquarters, 22 staffing decreases in fiscal year '83 and
'84, and then 23 increases in '85 to above the current level.
This is in 24 total.
The program support function increased by almost 25 70 percent for fiscal
'85.
Decreases in IEE at ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, i
136 1
headquarters are due mostly to a reduction in program 2
development, regional assessment activities and 3
increased regionalization.
Increases in program support 4
f unds is due to the nuclear data link.
5 Then on Slide 11 we have the major planned 6
accomplishments for IEE activities to be pe rf ormed in 7
the regions and regional efforts will be in the areas of 8
resident regional inspections, power reactor 9
construction inspections and systematic assessment of 10 licensee performance.
11 Then Chart 12 summarizes the ICE resources in 12 terms of decision units, and this is the headquarters 13 and the regions shown at the bottom.
14 Now I should note an item that already has 15 raised questions by the Commissioners, a significant 16 change in ICE that we might want to address.
17 I don't know if you have specific questions 18 you would like to ask or should I ask them so I don't 19 have to answer them?
20 (laughter.)
21 CHAIRMAN PALlADINO:
Well, let me give you an 22 assumption because I did have a significant impact in 23 this area, and then I think we ought to hear from Dick 24 DeYoung to see what he feels the impact is.
25 I felt that we had a significant amount of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
_ 00 W4GINtA AVE., S.W:. WAS_HINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 ' 7 { _'
4
137 1
engineering support in ICE and that some of that now no 2
longer is needed there because it exists in other 3
areas.
The regions have begun to develop a habit now of 4
calling the other areas. and don 't need quite the liaison 5
activity that existed in IEE, and this was the major 8
area where I thought we might be able to make some 7
reductions.
8 How I am quite sure that ICE has other views 9
on it, and I think the Commission ought to hear those 10 because this could be an area where you may feel that 11 the reductions.were too great.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You pointed out that 13 there were some changes in one, direction.
Do you see 14 any changes in other directions?
As I recall, there 15 were three items that at one time or another were 16 discussed to some extent about ICE headquarters 17 functions, a OA/QC prograu for the agency and a 18 construction inspection or PAT, and I wondered what 19 assumptions you had 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs let me just throw in 21 one comment here, too.
When the previous Director of 22 IEE was appointed, Vic Stello, I recall that we urged 23 him to beef up IEE, and he create the technical muscle, 24 so to speak, of that office.
I don ' t have a real good 25 feeling for how ef f ective the various parts of it are, ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, C@ VI A@lNIA AtG., @.W, WC@(29$T@N/@.@. $@8QqM@)0@_ ' _
138 1
but I hope that we are not sort of wrapping up one time 2
around and then saying well, that wasn't the right thing 3
to do and people ought to go ---
4 CHAIBHAN PALLADINO:
Well, the Commission 5
still has a chance to interact on that.
You know, here 6
you have got a new boy on the block and he looks at 7
things differently, and not necessarily any better than 8
the old way.
But it did seem to me we are transferring 9
a number of the activities out to the regions, except to for the construction appraisal team, which I would like 11 to see implemented, and maintaining the PAT program.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa I think in the~past 13 there was a sense ---
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The development of the 15 procedures, tha t I think is an essential activity that 16 has to continue.
17 COHNISSIONEB GILINSKY there was a sense 18 that as we shif ted over to more em phasis on operating 19 reactors that there would be large reform in IEE.
Nov 20 to a large extent we a re shif ting some of that into the
~
21 regions.
22 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Into the regions, yes.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But the NRR is keeping 24 the rest of it.
In a sense IEE is getting squeezed 25 out.
There are all sorts of ways responsibilities could ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN, D C. 20024 (202) 534 2345
139 1
be allocated.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What sligh tly puzzles 3
se is that in the regionalization in essence the large 4
field effort was in ICE and headquarters was more or S
l'ess the headquarters of that.
It was the other 6
organizations that had basically no field operation.
So I an a little puzzled by why we would find that as we 7
8 regionalize, which to a large extent means moving the 9
other offices out there, we then take big cuts in 10 headquarters IEE.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Well, you move some 12 technical support people out to the field so there is an 13 opportunity for closer interaction in' the field.
The i
14 liaison activity was necessary when you had a different 15 organizational structure whereby the regions reported to 18 ICE so they had the obligation to be the filter point 17 for questions from the region and then getting feedback l
18 from other areas on what the ansvers were.
19 I think one of the comments I remember Harold 20 Denton making in discussions was, oh, yes, we are seeing 21 a lot more inquiries directly from the regions.
So I e
22 vill defend it that far.
23 I realize it was a significant cut and I I
~24 pointed that out so that we can deal with it if the 25 approach you feel ough to be different.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
. 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W WASHINGTON, o.C_.dOO24 (202) 554-2345 '.
140 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY
'Well L7t we would in 2
effect be leaving NRR as the office that at least deals 3
with operational problems rather than IEE that brings 4
the agency's technical resources to bear.
So the people 5
who used to be reviewing licenses are now going to deal 6
with the operational problems.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Now wait, you 8
characterize NRR as though all it did was review the 9
licenses.
They are a reservoir of important technical 10 assistance and it is a question of philosophy whether 11 you want to have them more concentrated or distribute 12 them to units.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, you know, we
(
14 always have the problem of, first of all, deciding who 15 is responsible for wha t, and I had a thought a certain 16 shift of responsibility would take place as we shifted 17 toward more reactors in the field from NRR to a more 18 operationally oriented office such as IEE.
19 I mean the other problem'is making sure there 20 are uniform standa rds throughout the country in 21 inspection and QA and so on, and for that purpose we 22 need some sort of a central office.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s We haven't eliminated it.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY res, but the effect of 25 all this is really to tremendously down play that ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA' AVE., 5.W... WASHINGTON, O C.-2_0024 (20FD 554 2345' " -
t
141 1
office.
Now it may be that parts of it are not as 2
effective as they ought to be.
You know, not having 3
participated in your reviews, I am not as able to 4
comment on them as you are at this point.
5 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Well, I explained what 6
led me to it.
I didn't think we had hurt the budget.
7 If you look at the decision units of reactor 8
construction inspection and there is 20, and then 20, 9
and then 21.
That is not a reduction.
10 In reactor operations inspection, yes, there 11 is a reduction, but that is in part because there is 12 more field work.
13 Engineering and quality assurance, that is an 14 area where I expected to see some cut-back.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, let's see, I 16 thought John was raising the question as to who is going 17 to be responsible for QA efforts in his agency.
I felt 18 ve were shifting, or at least there was some inclination 19 to place those responsibilities in this office.
20 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
Well now, that is the 21 part that I was hoping would come out of our QA 22 discussion the other day.
23 COENISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, we didn 't get 24 auch out of our QA discussion.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, what I have asked 1
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHfNGTON.'D C. 20024 (20211554 2345 ' '
142 1
the EDO is to meet with me to try to understand wha t was 1
2 the hidden agenda in that meeting that we didn't get to 3
the bottom of so that we can understand ---
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Whose hidden agenda?
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, I read inside NRC 6
things that I don't find here.
7 (Laughter.)
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
And I want to understand 9
what the program ---
10 (Laughter.)
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I agree with you that we 12 haven't settled all those issues.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Focusing specifically 14 on that question, was the program office request for 55 15 people predicated upon such a consolidation ?
16 ER. DIRCKS4 Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So that the diff erence 18 between the 55 and 35 in both '84 and '85 represents --
19 are you saying no?
20 ER. DIRCKSs No t all of it.
I think we are 21 talking about 15.
We were talking about 15 staff years 22 making a dif ference between consolidating it all in ICE 23 or not consolidating it all in IEE.
(
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Nov what do you have 25 embedded in here elsewhere?
If this vent to 55 does ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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that mean that there are other offices in the agency 2
that would be reduced?
3 HR. DIRCKSt Yes.
4 CONHISSIONER GILINSKY:
Now let's see, is 5
there a breakdown somewhere on the regions according to 6.
these categories of reactor construction inspection and 7
reactor operations inspection because you go to great 8
lengths to break down 162 staff years, but lump 704 in 9
one category.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You have a handout, an 11 earlier one on the regions.
12 HR. BARRY:
Are you talking about the 13 breakdown on the regional total?
14 CONHISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, it is not the 15 regional total.
I assume it is the regional inspection 16 and enforcement complement.
I assume that that is not 17 the regional total.
18 HR. BARRY:
You mean the 693, the 704 and the 19 7227 l
l 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
~
21 HR. BARRY4 That is the total only for the ICE 22 function in the regions.
23 HR. DeYOUNG That is the regional total for l
24 the ICE function.
1 25 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYa I know, but this ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, L'& Ybl[$N($O [NkL,fb{b'hhhhh
144 1
headquarters total is 162.
Now did you break those down?
I 2
MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, in the book it is broken 3
down.
If you look at your cards here, if you will look 4
at regional operation ---
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, I am working off 6
these slides.
They break down the small pa rt and don' t 7
break down the large part.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE I am looking at the 9
regional operations.
Where would you have me look?
10 MR. BARRY:
If you are looking for a regional 11 total, I, II, III, IV and Y, by function, you know how 12 auch for NRR, how much for ICE and so on.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY I want to know how
(
~
14 many are on reactor construction inspection and how many 15 on reactor operations inspection?
Tell me where to look?
16 MR. BARRY It is page 2.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Page 2 of what?
18 MR. BARRY:
You don't have it.
19 (Laughter.)
20 MR. BARRY:
We didn't go to that level of
~
21 detail.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But Commissioner 23 Gilinsky raises a valid point that we are given the 24 breakout to that level for the 162 but we are given that 25 level for the over 700.
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MR. BARRY:
Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is that in a form that 3
can be made avail.able?
4 MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Could you read off some
]
6 of the headings?
7 HR. BARRY:
Yes.
Reactors-commercial 8
operation; reactors-start-up testing; reactors under 9
construction; reactors-preoperational testing; Clinch to River Breeder Reactors ---
11 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
It is not the same.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO4 Well, you would expect 13 the breakdown to be different in the regions by cut.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Not necessarily.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Do you have emergency 16 preparedness in the regions broken out?
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, they do.
18 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Perhaps you can give us 20 that.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Yes, why don't you get 22 that reproduced.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Car. you tell me what i 24 the ICE headquarters in '84 and '85 is allocated to PAT?
25 MB. DeYOUNG:
Seven.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W.l WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (SM)932349^ '
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COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
In each year?
2 HR. DeYOUNGs In each year.
3 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
What is it in '82 and 4
'837 5
HR. DeYOUNG:
It will be the same seven.
6 COHNISSIONER AREARNE:
How about in 7
construction permits, CAT?
8 HR. DeYOUNG:
We are just about to start and 9
that will be I think about six people.
We are not sure 10 how large the team vill be, but we are committed to 11 develop one by the fall.
12 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE But the budget has to 13 be based upon some assumption.
('
14 HR. DeYOUNGa Yes.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Six in '84 and '857 16 HR. DeYOUNG:
Yes, and six in '83 also.
l 17 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Those would end up 18 being embedded in CAT under reactor construction and PAT 19 under operations?
20 HR. DeYOUNG:
There vill be people we drav 21 f rom all the other decision units, inc16 ding training 22 staff from Chattanooga.
23 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
Does that seem like a l
24 larger number?
25 CHAIRHAN P ALLADINO:
I am sorrf.
I should ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345.
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. - - _. ~ ~. - - _.,. - _,, _. _. _. _ _, _ _. _ _. _ _....... _ _. _ _. _ _,.. _.. _. _,
147 1
have been listening.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The construction 3
appraisal team, they have six people.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
How many do you have in 5
PAT?
6 HR. DeYOUNGs Seven people.
There are seven 7
in PAT and six in the construction appraisal team.
8 HR. DIRCKS:
Now that is a subset under your 9
reactor construction inspection?
10 HR. DeYOUNG:
Yes, it is.
We haven't had much 11 time to develop this.
We didn't know we were going to 12 be required to have a CAT team this year.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Actually that is over in 14 the PPG, isn't it?
I forget what we said in the PPG 15 about the construction appraisal teams.
I am not sure 16 that ---
17 BR. DIRCKS:
I think you said it in a SECY 18 meno following the CAT briefing.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Based on the experience 20 with PAT it seems like a reasonable start.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, it is a two-year 22 plan.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I gather these teams are 24 to make appraisals.
They are not going out and visit 25 every plant.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMFANY,INC,
i 148
/
1 HR. DeYOUNG No.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
They will make selected 3
appraisals.
4 NR. DeYOUNG:
Yes.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You might have covered 6
this, but what precisely are they going to do?
7 MR. DeYOUNGs The CAT would do it for the 8
construction, for the plant under construction, do an 9
independent inspection appraisal of that plant as we do 10 with PAT for the operators.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa So it is. kind of a 12 check on our own inspection system?
(.
13 NR. DeYOUNG Partly.
14 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYs Are many such teams l
15 are we budgeting for?
16 HR. DeYOUNG:
Six people make one team.
They l
17 may not be the same people at each plant, b ut we a re 18 going to try to do at least one CAT inspection at each f
19 region every year.
The smaller regions, they don't have 20 that many plants.
So one year there may be two at one 21 of the larger regions and none at one of the smaller 22 regions, but we haven't developed a program yet.
I 23 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYa And these vill be out 24 of headquarters?
l 25 HR. DeYOUNG:
All out of headquarters.
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 1
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149 1
CONHISSIONER GILINSKYa And how many PAT teams 2
where there be?
3 HR. DeYOUNGs One.
I think we got the 4
approval of the Commission for the reduced plan that we 5
propose with heavy reliance upon INPO activity and 6
monitoring by the staff.
So there vill be one full team.
7 COMMISSION ER GILINSKYa We are not relying on 8
INPO to check on our inspection?
9 MB. DeYOUNGa No, no.
They have a program 10 that does a lot of the same types of inspections at each 11 operating plan t.
We are going to take advantage of 12 that.
We vill have observers at some of those
(,
13 inspections and we review all their reports and files in 14 their offices.
15 CONHISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see, I thought 16 their inspections are more or less comparable to our 17 SALP process.
18 HR. DeYOUNG:
PAT.
19 MR. DIRCKS:
20 HR. DeYOUNG An input to SALP, a big input.
21 COMBISSIONER GILINSKY:
And vs are going to 22 rely on their inspections?
23 HR. DIRCKS:
No.
24 MR. DeYOUNGs Not without monitoring and 25 observation.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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150 1
HR. DIRCKS:
Jim, would you step in.
2 HR. O'REILLY In regards to SALP, SALP is run 3
right now a hundred percent by the regions, and by run I 4
mean controlled, with input from various sources.
We 5
use every source that is available.
We do use the PAT 6
team results, we use the ---
7 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY:
The PAT's are out of 8
headquarters?
9 HR. O'REILLY Absolutely, yes, sir.
10 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, run out of 11 headquarters but they use a lot of regional people.
12 HR. O'REILLY Well, really the PAT team 13 people have been using regional people, but regional 14 people that have been fully assigned full time to and 15 under the control of the headquarters and usually ther 18 are used at other regions to give it that independent 17 look.
18 The INPO evaluations I look at as just an 19 extra.
It is a plus.
It is not a factor ---
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I am pleased to see 21 INPO doing all these things, but I don't like to see us 22 relying on their inspections.
23 NB. DIRCKS:
We are not relying on them.
24 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY They have their 25 responsibilities and we have our responsibilities.
ALDERSoN REPoftTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIAGINIA AVE. S.W WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 1
151 1
HR. O'REILLY If I can say a word about CAT.
2 The construction program of course is being updated and 3
modified.
Similar programs are run when we complete the 4
normal inspection modules.
This CAT team going around 5
is to see a number of things, but one is to assure that 6
our evaluations are uniform between regions and that 7
they are in sufficient depth, and also to see whether or 8
not their own programs are 9
CONHISSIONER GILINSKY:
So they will be 10 evaluating licensee management in the construction area, 11 too.
12 ER. O 'REILLY To supplement the regions and 13 to input the overall SALP program.
14 CONHISSIONER GILINSKY Let me ask you, and I 15 don't know whether you have gotten into this, but what 18 about resident inspectors?
What should this slide tell 17 se about how many resident inspectors there will be at, 18 say, construction sites?
i 19 HR. DIRCKS:
I have to look at the regions for j
20 that.
21 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY Is there a%pther slide 22 somewhere?
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think we are going to 24 have to get you the current breakdown.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, if you can just ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE.; S W., WASHINGTON, O C. Sy384 (Ss@ Q@0-8049'--
I 152 1
tell me?
2 HR. O'REILLYa In construction only or all ---
3 COMMISSIdNER GILINSKYa Why don't you cover 4
all of them.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Both, yes.
6 MR. O'REILLYs Altogether we have budgeted on 7
the average over the years approximately 150 residents.
8 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
How many do we have 9
right now?
10 ER. O 'REILLY :
The last number I heard ---
11 HR. DIRCKS Let me give you
'83.
Do we have 12
'827 13 HR. O'REILLY I know it is 150.
153 is the 14 budgeted total.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That is the total.
16 HR. O'REILLYs The budgeted number.
17 CHAIRNAN PALLADINO$
For which year?
18 HR. DIRCKS:
For
'82.
19 HR. O 'REILLY The last time I co unted I think 20 it. vas 139 is the actual number of residents.
The 21 budgeted number I think was 153, and there were some 22 reasons for tha*. difference.
23 MR. DIRCKS:
I can give you
'83.
24 CHAIRMAN RALLADINO:
That was for '827 25 MB. O'REILLYs Yes, sir.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGIN!A AVE 4 S.W.s WASHINGTON; O C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 ' %
j
153
\\
1 HR. DIRCKS:
For '83 it is 155.
That is 120 2
at operating plants and 34 construction sites.
3 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYa That sounds like two 4
per operating plant and one per construction site.
5 HR. O'REILLYa I think that is about how it 6
averages out.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Nov ve have talked 8
about this before, but I must say my own ---
9 HR. DIRCKS:
And one, by the way, at NFS to Ervin.
11 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY:
As to where one would 12 put additional inspectors, but it seems to me that at a 13 construction site where.you have got a lot of things 14 happening and a lot of activities that there ought to be 15 two NRC inspectors.
16 COHHISSIONER ASSELSTINEa I have got a concern 17 about having less than two at any site.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO What would it cost us in 19 terms of staff power to go to two inspectors at every 20 HR. DIRCKSa In fiscal '83 in order to get at 21 least two residents per site it would b6 21 additional 22 for operating sites and 34 additional f or cons truction.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is that a total of 50?
24 HR. DIRCKSa Fifty-five.
25 COHHISSIONER GILINSKY:
Which operating sites i
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is there one resident?
Is it the smaller ones?
2 MR. DeYOUNGs Wherever we have one-unit 3
plants.
Some of the one-unit plants have only 'one
(
4 resident, about half of them.
Half of the single-unit 5
sites have only one resident.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY These are the ones 7
that have the most problems?
8 BR. DeYOUNG:
Some of them and we are planning 9
to go into a program where, except for those that have 10 special problems, at single-unit sites we vill only have 11 one.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
At all single-unit 13 sites?
14 MR. DeYOUNG:
Except for special circumstances.
~ 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa I guess I am not sure 16 that is a good idea.
I mean there are some that ---
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is not a change in l
18 policy.
19 HR. DeYOUNG:
That is the policy.
20 NR. DIRCKSa That is the policy.
l l
21 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
But'the policy l
l 22 earlier on was not to have at least two residents at l
23 every site?
24 MR. DIRCKS:
No.
25 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Tha t wa s never a l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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policy?
2 HR. DIRCKS4 No.
3 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY:
There are some very 4
small plants that have two residents.
1 5
HR. DeYOUNG: 'True.
6 COHHISSIONER GILINSKYa And other larger 7
plants that have one.
I would say, you know, there are 8
plants in which one resident I think would probably be 9
okay, but at the large power reactors I would say a 10 couple of residents is not unreasonable.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think that is a policy 12 question we ought to address.
We may want to change it.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY It also means you get i
14 coverage ---
15 COMMISSIO N ER AHEARNE:
Could I ask you whether 16 you have any concern about the type of person who is a 17 resident in training or anything like that, experience, 18 or is just having someone there with a label as a 19 resident?
20 COHNISSIONER.GILINSKY:
No, I think we want 21 good people obviously.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What kind of 23 requirements would you put on them?
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, I think the 25 people we have there that I have run into I have been ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
156 1
rather impressed with.
Somebody has been picking pretty 2
good residents.
3 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
I agree with that.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Do you have any sense 5
though of the experience or background either in or out 6
of the NRC that you feel vould be necessary for this?
7 The reason I an asking is that, as Jim has pointed out, 8
ve are substantially below the number we have budgeted 9
now, and one of the reasons is it is difficult to find 10 enough people to fill the slots to meet the standards.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, there is also 12 the question of whether the next inspectors that are put 13 in the region are put at the site.
I think you were 14 inclined to say they are put in the region at least 15 right now.
16 MR. O'REILLY:
There is a number, you know, 17 based on overall resources, that you will have to make a 18 tough decision on.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY I understand that.
At 20 the same time we have run into plants where we have 21 problems and the residents I think
~
22 MR. O'REILLY:
Well, the regions, you know, 23 one of the things that we do, is we have put at the 24 problem plants, in the decision units by ICE and by the 25 regions in our discussions, extra residents.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345-
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COMNISSIONER GILINSKY It would seem to me 2
that a lot of construction sites, that it helps to catch 3
the problems early, particularly if you have a QA system 4
that isn 't working right or isn 't set up right, and we 5
have caught a lot of these problems pretty late in the 6
game.
7 ER. O'REILLY:
Well, the resident probably 8
would be involved in catching those problems late in the 9
game.
Some of the focus we are talking about is putting to it a little earlier in the game, you know, for some of 11 our people in our QA organizations to go out and upgrade 12 modules to address the managerial systems and the 13 licensee's activities, you know,'in designing and 14 managerially implementing their programs.
i 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, obviously it is l
16 not a simple question, and I recognize that there are 17 arguments on both sides.
1 1
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I want to ask Jim a 19 question.
Do you get comments or complaints from 20 resident inspectors where they are operating alone?
For 21 example, I think I would find it diffic61t to be at a 22 plant and be the only resident inspector.
I am just 23 talking from a personal sense.
I was wondering how the 24 inspectors feel about it?
25 MR. O'REILLY:
I think that would be a comment l
I I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE.. S.W., WASHINGTON.O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 r
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you would hear from a lot of them, sir, yes.
You would 2
hear that from the regional inspectors, too.
I mean 3
there are not a lot of free people around.
But the 7
~.
4 level of su pport provided to the residents by the 5
regions is an important f actor because a lot of our most 6
substantive safety problems are detected by our 7
specialists that come to the site that provide this 8
oversight, this uniformity and this in-depth review.
So 9
what you plan to get out of the resident versus some of 10 the visiting inspectors who see all the sites and are 11 more atuned to a lot of the current problems should not 12 be dismissed.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Dick, this has been a 14 question that has been around for a long ti me, the issue 15 of the regional based versus the residents and the one 16 versus two residents.
I guess you have had about what, 17 close to six years experience or five years of 18 experience with residents.
1 19 ER. DeYOUNG:
Five years.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Do you have any kind of 21 review or statistics or anything which would enable.you 22 to be able to put more than anecdotal conclusions around 23 where it is better to put the next level of effort?
24 HR. DeYOUNG:
It is hard to say that I am 25 completely in favor of balanced systems, especially on ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIP 31NIA AVE S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
159 1
i 1
construction sites.
I don't know whether it would be i
2 good to put two residents at a construction site because 3
of the timing of the work being done and the vast 4
differences between concrete work, mechanical work, 5
velding, and all of the different things that they do 6
during the construction of the plant.
7 To put a resident there that is expert in 8
con rete, for example, he would be wasting his time for 9
a lot of the time that he spends there.
It is more 10 effective I think to have one resident at each 11 construction site and. keep experts in the ragional group 12 to go to each and every site for just specific things.
13 At the same time I have spoken to a lot of
/^
l 14 residents and they have told me over and over again that 15 when they are alone they put out one unit of work and 16 When they have a second resident there that it is much 17 more than two units of work.
The complement each other 18 and they are a sounding board for each other.
19 So to se the resident is a very, very 20 eff ective regulatory tool, and I think one of the most 21 effective we have.
At the same time, you do need the 22 experts.
l 23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, it is clear that l
24 you need both.
The question is does it make sense l
25 MR. DeYOUNG We are in a crunch now where l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-23 A --
42.
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each one means something.
We have scrunched down on 2
this to permit the regions to go to one resident at each 3
single unit site.
We said this is our policy and 4
implement it to save that half a dozen people for the 5
regions.
You know, there is no more fat in the 6
organization.
We have been reduced by 25 from what we 7
thought we had to have in the begianing.
8 I think we can do the job we have with that 9
auch, maybe not, but we vill see it.
We will scream if 10 we can't.
But it gives us an opportunity to demonstrate 11 our management abilities.
There are things that can be 12 done.
You know, I think we have a very difficult job 13 here of where these individuals go in the regions, 14 whether regional specialists or resident inspectors.
15 There is no good answer.
You have to almost look at 18 every site specifically by itself and see whether maybe 17 one more resident there would do a better job.
I think 18 at Zimmer, for example, the answer would have been yes, 19 that we should have had another resident there, but tha t 20 is hindsight.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO This question of how many 22 inspectors to have at each of the plants I understand is 23 a policy item that has been voted on by the Commission.
24 There may be new facts now that would cause you to 25 prepare a different proposal, and it might be valuable l
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to examine the issue and produce a judgment paper that 2
could be considered by the Commission.
3 HR. DIRCKSa All right.
4 CHAIRHAN PALLADINOs And if we want to go to 5
two people, we can do it, but I think we should vote on 6
it as formally as the previous policy was set.
7 Jim.
8 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Hine is a practical 9
question to Jim.
If a decision were made to increase 10 the number of residents, how feasible it it, give as 11 John as pointed out, that we are now below strength, how 12 feasible would it be to plan say by the end of fiscal 13 year '83 to increase the number of residents to have at
(
14 least two per site?
Can you acquire and train the kind 15 of people you want, particularly if you also want to 16 give them say a minimum of a year's worth of experience 17 in the agency or in the region before you put them out 18 at a site?
19 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE4 We don't require that.
20 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE Yes, if you don't 21 require it, but if you wanted to.
22 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
We should but we don't 1
23 require it.
24 HR. O'REILLY If the Commission decides to we 25 could staff it by the end of fiscal
'83.
You made a l
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statement about,us being understaffed.
We are not 2
understaffed.
The numbers that were budgeted were keyed 3
into certain plants moving along and there were i
4 cancella tion s.
The regions are up to speed and all the 5
sites are staffed in accordance with the policy, but 6
there were a number of other things.
The budgeted 7
numbers were really budgeted for last year and a' lot of 8
things have occurred since then.
So I thought maybe I 9
had left the wrong impression, but the sites are staffed 10 today.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
How many would you need 12 above the present ceiling to make th a t two?
13 HR. DIRCKS:
55.
i 14 CHAIBHAN PALLADIN0s You gave me 55.
But 15 since circumstances have changed, and you said the 153 to is really more than you need ---
~
17 HR. O'REILLY:
I think that number was i8 predicated on our independent study.
19 HR. DIRCKS:
What we are budgeting for in '83 20 under the present policy is 155.
If you wanted to 21 change the policy to put two at each site, both 22 construction and opera ting, there would be an additional 23 55.
24 C'HAIRHAN PALLADINO:
And you counted those 25 slots that are not being used?
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ER. DIRCKS:
We counted what would be the 2
anticipated need in fiscal
'83.
/
3 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Jim, I seem to recall 4
somewhere reading that currently your second resident 5
rou don't require to have any length of time in the NRC; 6
is that correct?
7 ER. O'REILLY :
That is correct.
l 8
Qualifications are required and a certain amount of 9
experience.
We don't hire, you know, new recruits for 10 these positions.
We have hired some directly into the 11 sites, buc they wouldn't report to the sites without 12 going through our training program at Chattanooga and 13 also it would be under in those cases, always under the I
14 direction of the senior qualified individual.
There 15 would be no reductions in the senior's qualification.
16 We are just talking about the extra resident at i
17 multi-plant sites.
18 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
You are breaking at 19 four I understood you to say.
I 20 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I have a problem staying
~
21 beyond four.
\\
l 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
If we are going to 23 break, perhaps Dick could answer.the question.that you 24 had posed earlier, which was basically given that you 25 have had a substantial reduction in the budget from what ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W4 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 --...... ~.
164 1
you originally requested, what is the impact of that?
2 What can't you do that you would have planned on doing?
3 HB. DeIOUNG I would have to say two things.
4 One, we have taken a quick look at where we would take 5
the cut and what we would do.
The other thing is to say 6
that we know with a cut of this magnitude that we have 7
to look at that in a broader way.
We now have a 8
division that has been reduced to 12 people, and that is 9
no longer a division.
We do not need three SES managers 10 for that division.
11 So it is going to be a realignment to save 12 management resources in the clerical and program support 13 people.
We just cannot carry that many people again.
(
14 So I think we are looking at a realignment to save a 15 number of these people.
In other areas it looks like we 16 are going to take a generally across-the-board, about a 17 12 to 20 percent cut, varying with the groups.
18 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Can you though focus on 19 what is the impact of that.
l l
20 MR. DIRCKS:
What would you not be able to do?
21 HR. DeYOUNG:
There is nothing we are not 22 going to do of the major program offices.
The 23 Enforcement, just as an example, we propose to reduce it 24 by one.
We have one many in the group now that plans to 25 retire very shortly and we vill not replace him.
We ALDERSON REPCRTIMG COMPANY,INC, i
400 VIRG!NIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTOM. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
165 1
think we can get by without that individual and still 2
produce almost the same quality, but it is in the
/~
3 quall'ty that you are going to find a slight reduction.
4 I don't think'it'is going to be a one of out eight li reduction because I think ve: vill maintain some of that 6
quality without the individual that is leaving.
7 So I think you are going to see it in quality 8
and in schedules.
I think ve slip some schedules.
I 9
think there are many internal things that.ve vill not 10 do.
Research requested us to comment on certain 11 papers.
We are not going to do them.
OI requested our 12 technical assistance on one of the investigations.
Ther 4
13 are going to have to fight for it.
We are not going to
'~
14 give it just at their request.
They are going to have 15 to demonstrate that we are the only place they can get 16 it, and if we gave it last month we are not giving it 17 again this month.
So it is in that type of thing that 18 ve are going to,save.
We are going to not do a lot of l
19 things, reviews and comments.
So that is in quality and 20 that is in paper.
~
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Where are bulletins 22 prepared.
l 23 MR. DeYOUNGs Bulletins are prepared in what 24 ve call the engineering quality assurance group.
Ed 25 Jordan has a group that has been reduced from 40 to 35.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON..D.C. 20024 M2) 554 2345 ' e + *e
166 1
That is his group.
We have a group of people in there 2
that prepare then put them out.
3 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY Are any of these
,e s 4
circulars sent from ragional offices?
Do regional 5
offices send out anything to the licensees in the nature 6
of information letters or does that come out of 7
headquarters.
8 HR. DeYOUNG:
That comes out of headquarters.
9 HR. O'REILLY:
Recently in the last several 10 months headquarters took over a more efficient way of 11 distributing the bulletins, circulars and notices.
12 Historically since the very beginning the regions 13 distributed them to the licensess affected within the i
14 region.
ICE headquarters, Ed Jordan 's group, had always 15 approved them for the regions to take that action.
The 16 regions do participate, as do other offices within the 17 agency, in developing issues for bulletins, in drafting 18 them and submitted them to ICE for, you know, staff l
19 review,. coordination, definitely technical input and 20 upgraading.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I must say that in 22 looking at a number of issues I found that some of these 23 bulletins take quite a while to get out.
I don't know I
24 whether that is because there aren't enough people or 25 for other reasons.
I wonder what the effect on reducing ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 4C] VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20*24 (202) 554-2345 I
167 i
(,
1 the staff in that area is going to be?
Is that a factor?
i 2
HR. DeYOUNGa Well, as I said, there is going F'
3 to be a lengthening of some of the sched ule s.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Do bulletins go 5
through the CRGR?
6 HR. DeYOUNGs Yes, they do.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs You know, on the one 8
hand we are cutting back on the people who are preparing
~
9 the bulletins, and, on the other hand, we are beefing up 10 the people who stop bulletins.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Vic, that is an unfair 12 description of CRGR and'you know it.
The CBGR's purpose 13 is not to stop bulletins or stop anything.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, I will tell you, 15 I don't'think it is not an unfair shorthand description is of how the process works.
Now it is ture, the purpose 17 is to review them and to make sure that they are 18 sensible and reasonable and so on.
But in talking with 19 the people who do the work, the way they perceive it, I 20 think it is closer to the way I' described it.
21
' CHAIRM AN P ALLADINO4 Well, it is a little bit l
22 like the applicant and the NRC, there is bound to be l
23 some reaction of that nature.
(
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me put it this
, 25 var.
You are sort of reducing the people that say yes, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
168 1
and beefing up the people that say no.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
No.
They are coming 3
basically from the offices in which they are working.
4 CONMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Let me ask a question 5
which might sound impertinent, but I will preface it to 6
show why it isn't.
The Congress gets something called 7
the Holifield Tables.
8 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
The way?
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is called'the M)
Holifield Tables.
It probably isn 't even called that 11 except by the decreasingly small number of people who 12 happen to remember where they came from.
In essence 6he 13 Congress is going to ask what did the program office
(
14 request, what did the EDO decide, what did the Chairman 15 decide, what did the Commission decide and what did OMB 16 decide?
Then they will have this layout and will track 17 where the decisions got made.
18 With that preface, Bill, did you cut ICE or 19 did the Chairman cut IEE; or, Joe, did you cut ICE or
- 20 did the Bill cut IEE?
21 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I think Bill cut then 22 slightly and I cut them harder.
23 (Laughter.)
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is that a f air 25 representation?
ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN. D.C. 20024(202) 554 2345
169
/
1 HR. DeYOUNG:
You each did the same job just 2
about.
3 (Laughter.)
4 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYa You know, if the 5
office is not doing a good job or less p'eople ---
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0a No, it is a question of 7
where we are going to get some of these resources.
8 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is more than 13 and 9
12.
The cut. vas f rom a request of 215 to 158.
10 BR. DeYOUNGa Some of those are not real 11 numbers.
12 (Laughter.)
13 MR. DeYOUNG:
Now the 15 are from the QA group 14 which is not consolidated.
So you take them out of the 15 215.
There v'ere five that we were carrying that are 16 scheduled for the regions and were there just for 17 bookkeeping.
They were there just for bookkeeping 18 purposes.
That gets it down to 195.
The investigators 19 recen tly were shif ted off.
That was four more.
So we l
20 quickly get down to number ---
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE So it var about 25 rou 22 would say.
23 ER. DeYOUNG Twenty-five.
I 24 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Putting aside the QA 25 consolidation, there was a cut of 25.
ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) $54-2345
l 170 1
MB. DeYOUNG:
Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINoa I have to intercede a 3
little at this point.
I should be leaving right now.
~
4 You have various options.
One, you could continue here 5
and I get whatever feedback I can, and what w~e don't get 6
done today we do have time to do on Tuesday afternoon.
7 Or you can postpone it all until Tuesday afternoon, 8
except that is all we have got.
I was hoping we would 9
have been done through IEE at least before now, but I 10 gather there are still more questions.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIa There is a question 12 about some contracts, IEE contracts.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, would you like to 14 continue.
15 C05MISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is your budget.
16 (Laughter.)
17 CHAIBHAN PALLADINO:
Eventually each person 18 has got to come up with their suggested mark.
I would 19 like to hear the comments.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa It is more than tha t, 21 Joe.
The budget we are addressing is the budget.you are 22 proposing to us.
In some cases you are the principal ---
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, I think you have 24 gotten to the place now where I am the principal.
25 (Laughter.)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
171 1
CHAIBHAN PALLADINO:
Well, I really do have to 2
go if I am going to meet the other commitment.
Let me 3
try the following.
We do have a number of written 4
questions that were submitted by Commissioners and you 5
ha"e gotten some written answers.
However, I am not 6
sure that they have gotten the blessing of the EDO yet.
7 So I.vould like to have the EDO get ansvers to 8
Commissioners' questions by Monday in written form.
9 Look them over and be sure that you put your' stamp of 10 approval on them.
I think there are some questions that 11 Commissioner Gilinsky. had raised to OPE and I would like 12 to get the word to OPE also to get those answered.
13 Now I believe the EDO has provided many of 14 those ansvers and they have been submitted to OPE.
So 15 the Commissioners can have their responses by Honday.
16 On Iuesday afternoon at 2 p.m.
we can resume 17 this proceeding and I think the schedule would permit us 18 to go as late as we need to on Tuesday.
I don't knov 19 how your schedules are.
20 Then our vindow gets very tight.
I would like 21 to have each Commissioner by next Thursaar give me thel' 22 proposed changes, for example, you may want to change a 23 number iri a particular office, so that on Friday I could 24 look them over and come up with a consolidated package 25 and get it out to you-by Monday so that we can try a l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
172 1
notation vote.
That already is August 2nd.
It take 2
about a minimum of three weeks I am told to put this 3
budget together and it is has got to be in September 1st.
4 So I am saying that by the 4th we ought to 5
have all the notation votes.
If we have items of 6
disagreement that we need to resolve, I would say on 7
August 4th we would meet in the af ternoon to try to 8
resolve those.
Now the window is tight, but if we can 9
get those questions answered to the Commissioners so 10 they.have a basis for decision.
11 We vill resume on Tuesday afternoon, the 27th 12 at 2 o' clock to continue these discussions and get a 13 proposed mockup from the Commissioners on the 24th which 14 I will get out by early on the 2nd a proposed 15 consolidation and try to get the notation votes by the 16 4th.
17 I hate to stop a good discussicn, but I would 18 like very much to hear it.
19 MR. DAVIS:
May I interject just for a minute 20 on the problem with the answer to the NHSS question.
21 Apparently, Commission Ahearne, your quistion focused on 22 the materials licensing line for fiscal year 1984 on 23 page 1 of the Chairman's submittal.
The answer to the 24 question was misread and the answer focused on the 25 regionalization line for fiscal year '83 on page 2 of ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
173 1
the submittal.
2 (Laughter.)
/'
3 HR. DAVIS:
We will explain that.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Good.
5 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Well, I thank you all for 6
your help and we vill look forward to seeing you again 7
on Tuesday.
8 We vill stand adjourned.
9 (Whereupon, at 4:10 p.m.,
the newting 10 adjourned, to be reconvened at 2400 p.m.,
Tuesday, July 11 27, 1982.)
12 13 L-g 15 16 17 18 19 20
~
21 22 l
23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
m suc:2Aa a.:.w19Er CDF*SICN This is t0 ca.Mif7 that tha attache <i pecceetti=gs bef re the
.({ "
COMMISSION MEETING is the sattar cf:.
PUBLIC MEETING - BUDGET BRIEFING Casa cf Freceecing:
July 23, 1982 OcCk2C llCIILher:
Place cf Proceedi:g:
Washington, D.
C.
sars held as hereis appears, Acc chah this 1.;s the cri;1:21 Oranscri thsrscf ice che file of the C2~' wsica.
Mary c. simons Official Reportar (!7:ed)
A fri M Official Repcrtar (514:st:.:re) e l
e
,--w..,_,,
i j
1 i
i i
i t
U. S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMISSION CilAIRMAN'S BRIEFING TO Tile COMISSION ON FY 1982-1985 BUDGET ESTIMATES JULY 23, 1982 I
i e
I
t 3
i j
SUMMARY
BY l1AJOR FUNCTION j
(DOLLARS IN MILLIONS)
(STAFFYEARS IN PFT/FTE) 4 i
FY 1982 i
CURRENT JECOMMENDED LEVEL FUNCTION ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1984 FY 1985 SALARIES AND BENEFITS
$139.4
$138.6
$143.0
$141.5 s
PROGRAM SUPPORT 272.8 276.2 286.5 269.6 ADMIN SUPPORT 44.2 48.0 51.4 55.5 TRAVEL 9.9 10.1 10.7 10.7 EQUIPMENT 7.7 6.6 7.2 6.9 1/
2/
TOTAL
$474.0
$479.5
$498.8
$484.2 STAFFYEARS 3,324 3,303 3,303 3,275 l
1/
INCLUDES $465.7M IN FY 1982 NEW BUDGET AUTHORITY PLUS $8.3M PRIOR-YEAR FUNDING AUTHORITY.
2/
$479.5f1 APPROVED BY THE ADMINISTRATION FOR FY 1982, HAS NOT YET BEEN ACTED UPON BY THE CONGRESS.
1
PERSONNEL AND PROGRAM SUPPORT FUNDING
SUMMARY
FY 1982 CURRENT RECOMMENDED LEVEL ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 198'l FY 1985
~~
ORGANIZATION
, _SL PS $
_SL PS $
SY
'S $
_SL PS $
REGIONAL OPERATIONS 768
.8 889
$ '6.2 987
$ 11.0 1,044
$ 10.'S NRNHEADQUARTERS 699 41.2 694 11 4. 1 640 33.6 565 30.0 NMSS HEADQUARTERS 318 20.5 274 16.6 256 16.2 254 15.3 IE IIEADQUARTERS 195 8.4 162 8.4 158 10.1 156 13.0 RES IIEADOUARTERS g*286 196.8 271 195.2 260 209.9 260 195.0 296 1.9 314 1.9 309 8'
1.8 304 1.7 COMM STAFF 0FFICES EDO STAFF 0FFIQES 361 3.2 334 3.8 330 3.9 330 4.0 ADMINISTRATION 402 365 363 ' ~~ w ~., 362 TOTAL 3,325
$272.8 3,303
$276.2 3,303
$286.5 3,275
$269.6 s
E
DECISION UNIT
SUMMARY
~
REGIONAL OPERATIONS FY 1982 CURRENT RECOMMENDED l_EVEL
~~
ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 198'l FY 1985 DECISION UNIT SY--
- PS $
lL PS $
SY PS $
JL fS_j g
REACTOR REGULATION 7
11 5
$1.5 97
$ 6.8 135
$ 6.5 MATERIAL SAFETY AND SAFEGUARDS 2
3fl
- 1. fi 52
- 1. fi 55
- 1. fi INSPECTION AND ENFORCEMENT 693 0.8 70fl 3.'3 722 2.8 738 2.7 PROGRAM IECHNICAL SUPPORT 3f; Igig Igig fjf; MANAGEMENT DIRECTION AND Suee0RT 32 62 72 72 TOTAL 768
$0.8 889
$6.2 987
$11.0 1,0fift
$10.6 l
3
RESOURCE AND PROGRAM
SUMMARY
i REACTOR REGULATION FY 1982 CURRENT RECOMMENDED LEVEL
~~
ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1980 FY 1985 ORGANI7ATION 1
_PS $
_SL PS $
SY
'S $
_SL
_PS $
NRR 699
$41.2 694
$44.1 640
$33.6 565
$30.0 REGIONS 7
0 45 1.5 97 6.8 135 6.5 i
TOTAL 706
$41.2 739
$45.6 73 7-
$40.4 7UU-
$36.5 e
REDUCE Tile OPERATING REACTOR LICENSING ACTION INVENTORY TO ACCEPTABLE LEVEL BY FY 1985.
e COMPLETE DEVELOPMENT OF PLANT SPECIFIC (OPERATING REACTORS) IMPLEMENTATION SCHEDULES FOR NEW AND EXISTING REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS IN EARLY FY 1983, o
e COMPLETE SEP PHASE 11 IN FY 1983.
INITIATE SEP PHASE 111 AND NREP IN FY 1983.
PERFORM POWER REACT,0R LICENSING REVIEWS BASED ON APPLICANT CONSTRUCTION ESTIMATES.
e CRBR CP DECISION SCHEDULED FOR FY 1984.
~
RESOLVE 7 0F THE 14 CURRENTLY IDENTIFIED USI'S BY END OF FY 1983; 3 (INCLUDING PTS) IN FY 1984; e
AND 4 IN FY 1985.
ASSUMES TWO NEW USI'S EAcil FISCAL YEAR.
9 DEVELOP TECHNICAL RESOLUTIONS FOR THE ISSUES IDENTIFIED IN THE LONG-RANGE HUMAN FACTORS PLAN.
s 4
REACTOR REGULATION - CONTINUED e
REACTOR REGULATION - REGIONS:
e ADDITIONAL OPERATING REACTOR LICENSING ACTIONS BEGINNING IN FY 1983.
AUTHORITY FOR OPERATING REACTORS BEGINNING IN FY 1983.
ADMINISTER REACTOR OPERATOR LICENSE EXAMINATIONS BEGINNING IN FY 1983.
AUTHORITY TO ISSUE NON-POWER REACTOR LICENSE AMENDMENTS BEGINNING IN FY 1983.
AUTHORITY TO ISSUE NON-POWER REACTOR LICENSE RENEWALS AND NEW LICENSES BEGINNING IN FY 1984.
OVERSIGHT OF TMI-2 CLEANUP OPERATIONS TRANSFERRED TO REGION 1 BEGINNING IN FY 1984.
~
s 5
i i
DECISION UNIT
SUMMARY
REACTOR REGULATION i
FY 1982 j
CURRENT RECOMMENDED LEVEL ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1980 FY 1985 t
DECISION UNIT bY-PS $
_SL PS $
SY
'S $
_SL PS $
OPERATING REACTORS 201
$10.3 259
$10.0 265
$ 7.9-226
$ 7.1 SYQTEMATIC SAFEIY EVALUATION UF OPERATING KEACTORS 30 1.4 36 3.8 41 5.2 42 5.2 OPERATOR ' LICENSING 16 4.0 16-4.7 6
6 CASEWORK g 309 16.6 208
-11.8 174 8.5 137 6.6 SAFETY IECHNOLOGY 76 8.4 115 13.5 112 12.0 112 11.1
~
TMI-2 CLEANUP 20 0.3 17 0.3 t1A M NT DIRECTION AND 47 0.2 43 42 42 SUBTOTAL NRR 699
$41.2 694
$44.1 640
$33.6 565
$30.0
~
REGIONS 7
0 45 1.S 97 6.8 135 6.5 TOTAL 706
$41.2 739
$45.6 737
$40.4 700
$36.5 t
1/ EXCLUDES OVERHIRES.
6
RFSOURCE AND PROGRAM
SUMMARY
MATERIAL SAFETY AND SAFE 60ARDS FY 1982 CURRENT RECOMMENDEo LEVEL
~~
ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1980 FY 1985 ORGANIZATION
_S1_
PS $
_S1_
PS $
SY PS $
_SY_
PS $,
NMSS 318
$20.5 274
$16.6 256
.$16.2 254
$15.3 I
REGIONS 2
0 34 1.4 52 1.4 55 1.4 TOTAL 320
$20.5 308
$18.0 308
$17.6 309
$16.7 e
PERFORM FUEL CYCLE, MATERIALS AND TRANSPORTATION LICENSING REVIEWS BASED ON NRC CASELOAD FORECAST.
e COMPLETE DEVELOPMENT OF MATERIALS llCENSING MANAGEMENT INFORMATION SYSTEM BY FY 1985, ASSESSTHEADEQUACYOFgURRENTCRI.TERIAFORREPROCESSINGFACILITIESANDDEVELOPCRITERIAFOR 8
GENERIC DRY SPENT-FUEL STORAGE.
i e
PERFORM SAFEGUARDS LICENSING REVIEWS FOR REACTORS, FUEL CYCLE FACILITIES, AND TRANSPORTATION OF RADIOACTIVE MATERIALS.
i e
COMPLETE HLW DISPOSAL REGULATION (10 CFR 60) FOR PUBLICATION IN EARLY FY 1983.
)
e COMPLETE THREE HLW SITE CHARACTERIZATION REVIEWS BY THE END OF FY 1984.
DEVELOP TECHNICAL GUIDANCE TO ENSURE THE CAPABILITY TO REVIEW THE LICENSE APPLICATION FOR THE FIRST HLW REPOSITORY EXPECTED IN FY 1987/1988, PERFORM LICENSE REVIEWS FOR LOW-LEVEL WASTE DISPOSAL FACILITIES BASED ON NRC CASELOAD FORECAST.
e 7
MATERIAL SAFETY AND SAFEGUARDS - CONTINUED MATERIALS SAFETY & SAFEGUARDS - REGIONS:
l URANIUM RECOVERY LICENSING TRANSFERRED TO REGION IV BEGINNING IN FY 1983.
AUTHORITY TO ISSUE MATERI ALS LICENSES BEGINNING IN FY 1982.
ISSUE SAFEGUARDS LICENSE AMENDMENTS WHICH DO NOT DECREASE EFFECTIVENESS FOR REACTORS I
AND SNM FACILITIES BEGINNING IN FY 1983.
f PERFORM CLOSE00T SURVEYS AND TERMINATION OF URANIUM FUEL FABRICATION LICENSES BEGINNING IN FY 1983.
V 4
MAINTAIN OVERSIGHT TO 10 CFR 70 LICENSES FOR ADVANCED FUEL PLANTS FOR DECONTAMINATION i
AND DECOMMISSIONING BEGINNING IN FY 1983.
CONDUCT TRANSPORTATION ROUTE SURVEYS AND REVIEW CONTINGENCY PLANS FOR SPENT FUEL AND CATEGORY 1 SNM SHIPMENTS BEGINNING IN FY 1984.
6 l
[
8
DECISION UNIT
SUMMARY
i MATERIAL SAFETY AND SAFEGUARDS l
FY 1982 CURRENT RECOMMENDED LEVEL i
~
ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1980 FY 1985 DECISION UNIT
-bY-
-PS $
_SL PS $
SY
)S $
_SL PS $
FUEL CYCLE llCENSING 39
$ 2.8 36
$ 2.1 35
$ 2.2 37
$ 2.1 TRANSPORTATION SAFETY 17 0.li 17 0.5 17 0.5 17 0.5
!1ATERIALS llCENSING 44 1.0 33 1.0 26 0. 11 28 0.5 REACTOR SAFEGUARDS LICENSING 39 1.2 33 0.9 32 1.2 35 1.4 Fu:L CYCLE SAFEGUARDS
_ICENSING 36 2.7 31 3.0 31 2.9 29 2.6 SAFEGUARDSIRbNSPORTATION AND EXPORT
! CENSING 19 0.2 18 0.1 16 0.3 14 0.3
!llGil-LEVEL WASTE MANAGEMENT 42 8.0 42 6.3 42 6.3 11 2 6.0 L0w-LEVEL WASTE MANAGEMENT 29 2.3 29 2.4 27 2.1 26 1.3 URANIUM RECOVERY llCENSING 34 1.8 11 0.2 11 0.2 7
0 MANAGEMENT DIRECTION AND SuePORT 19 0.1 19 0.1 19 0.1 19 0.1 SUBTOTAL NMSS 318
'$20.5 27'l
$16.6 256
$16.2 254
$15.3 REGIONS 2
0
_34 1.4 52 1. 11 55 1. 11 TOTAL 320
$20.5 308
$18.0 308
$17.6 309
$16.7 9
RESOURCE AND PROGRAM
SUMMARY
~
INSPECTION AND ENFORCEMENT FY 1982 CURRENT RECOMMENDED LEVEL ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1984 FY 1985 ORGANIZATIOg
_SY_
PS $
_S1_
PS $
SY
)S $
_Sy_
PS $
IE 195
$8.4 162
$ 8.4 158
$10.1 156
$13.0 REGIONS 693 0.8 704 3.3 722 2.8 738 2.7 TOTAL 888
$9.2 866
$11.7 880
$12.9 894
$15.7 DEVELOP, APPRAISE, AND ASSESS THE REACTOR CONSTRUCTION, VENDOR, REACTOR OPERATIONS,-QUALITY e
ASSURANCE, MATERIALS RADIOLOGICAL AND SAFEGUARDS INSPECTI0il PROGRAMS, AND THE ENFORCEMENT AND EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS PROGRAMS.
INITIATE AN INDEPENDENT HEADQUARTERS CONSTRUCTION APPRAISAL TEAM BEGINNING IN FY 1983, e
i e-CONTINUE THE INDEPENDENT llEADQUARTERS PERFORMANCE APPRAISAL TEAM.
COMPLETE THE DEVELOPMENT AND TESTING OF Tile NUCLEAR DATA l!NK PROTOTYPE IN FY 1983.
INITIATE e
IMPLEMENTATION OF Tile NDL FOR ALL OPERATING POWER REACTORS OVE 1
10
o INSPECTION AND ENFORCEMENT - CONTINUED INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT - REGIONS:
e PERFORM POWER REACTOR INSPECTIONS BASED ON NRC INDEPENDENT CONSTRUCTION ESTIMATES.
e CONTINUE TO IMPLEMENT THE RESIDENT AND REGIONAL INSPECTION PROGRAMS.
e INCREASE POWER REACTOR CONSTRUCTION INSPECTIONS BEGINNING IN FY 1983 WITH FURTHER INCREASES IN FY 1984/85.
e CONTINUE THE SYSTEMATIC ASSESSMENT OF LICENSEE PERFORMANCE (SALP) PROGRAM.
e e
11 1
~
DECISION UNIT
SUMMARY
INSPECTION AND ENFORCEMENT FY 1982 CURRENT RECOMMENDED LEVEL ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1980 FY 1985 DECISION UNIT
_SY_
PS $
_SL PS $
._Sy_
3S $
_SL PS $
REACTOR CONSTRUCTION INSPECTION 20
$0.3 20
$ 0.7 21
$ 0.9 21
$ 9.9 REACTOR OPERATIONS INSPECTION 28 1.7 22 2.0 22 1.9 22 1.9 ENGINEERING AND QUALITY ASSURANCE 40 0.8 35 0.6 35 0.7 35 0.7 FUgL FACILITIES AND nATERIALS 17 0.9 12 1.4 9
0.9 9
0.6 ENFORCEMENT 8
7 7
7 EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS V, 39 3.0 28 2.3 27 3.3 25 7.0 SegCIALIZED IECHNICAL l RAINING 19 1.6 17 1.3 17 2.3 17 1.3 MANAGEMENT DIRECTION AND SUPPORT 24 0.1 21 0.1 20 0.1 20 0.1 SUBTOTAL IE 195
$8.4 162
$ 8.4 158
{10.1 156
$13.0 ReoIONS 693 0.8 704 3.3 722 2.8 738 2.7 12 TOTAL 888
$9.2 855
$11.7 830
$12.9 894
$15.7
RESOURCE AND PROGRAM
SUMMARY
RESEARCH FY 1982 RECOMMENDED LEVEL CURRENT ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1984 FY.1985
_sy_
PS $
SY PS $
SY PS $
SY PS $
286 196.8 271 195.2 260 209.9 260 195.0 PROVIDES TECHNICAL BASIS FOR RESOLUTION OF PRESSURIZED Tl4ERMAL SHOCK ISSUE IN FY 1984, e
PROVIDES SUPPORT FOR AND CONFIRMATICd 0F REGULATORY POSITIONS ON STEAM GENERATOR IUBE INTEGRITY, e
EQUIPMENT QUALIFICATION, SEISMIC SAFETY MARGINS, AND REACTOR MATERIALS AND COMPONENT AGING.
e SUPPORT THE DEVELOPMENT OF TECHNICAL RESOLL ONS FOR THE ISSUES IDENTIFIED IN THE'LONG-RANGE IlUMAN FACTORS PLAN.
CONTINUES EXPERIMENTS TO EVALUATE SYSTEM BEllAVIOR DURING TRANSIENTS (INCLUDING SEMISCALE e
FIST).
INCLUDES NRC SHARE FOR CONSTR'JCTION OF SEMISCALE MOD-5 (B&W CONFIGURATION).
e 13 s
o
?
M.
o NUCLEAR REGULATORY RESEARCH - CONTINUED CONTINUE DEVELOPMENT OF IMPROVED PRA METHODOLOGY AND SUPPORT TO SEVERN ACCIDENT POLICY e
DETERMINATION AND SAFETY GOAL.
DEVELOP THE TECHNICAL BASE FOR COMMISSION POLICY DETERMINATIONS ON SOUR'CE TERM BY EARLY FY 198 e
AND SEVERE ACCIDENTS BY FY 1984 (INCLUDES RESEARCH ON DAMAGED FUEL, CONTAINMENT LOADING AND INTEGRITY, FISSION PRODUCT RELEASE AND TRANSPORT, SEVERE ACCIDENT SEQUENCE ANAL.YSIS AND IMPROVED SAFETY SYSTEMS).
e CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE INTERNATIONAL 2D/3D eR6 GRAM.
e COMPLETE NRC-SPONSORED LOFT TESTING BY MID-FY 1983.
PROVIDES FUNDING FOR NRC* SHARE OF THE LOFT CONSORTIUM BEGINNING IN FY 1984 ($10M/ YEAR FOR 3 YEARS).
o CONTINUE RESEARCH EFFORT TO SUPPORT THE CRBR LICENSING DECISION.
G 14
l DEk!SION UNIT
SUMMARY
Jk RESEARCH FY 1982 CURRENT RECOMMENDED LEVEL ESTIMATE FY 1983 FY 1984 FY 1985 DECISION UNIT
_SY_
PS $
_SL PS $
SY PS $
_SL PS $
REkCTORANDFACILITY
~
NGINEERING 59
$ 33.1 58
$ 37.0 57
$ 40.5 58
$ 42.8 FACILITY OPERATIONS 51 13.0 47 13.5 42 16.8 43 17.1 THERMAL HYDRAULIC IRANSIENTS 10 16.3 10 21.7 10 27.5 10 22.6 SITING AND HEALTH 31 9.3 23 9.0 22 11.0 23 11.7 RISK ANALYSIS 51 16.0 49 15.9 48 19.3 49 22.2 ACGIDENT EVALUATION AND MITIGATION 23 33.1 25 47.2 24 45.4 23 38.6 LOSS-0F-COOLANT ACCIDENT 8
14.6 7
11.1 6
g 10.5 5
9.2 LOFT 4
42.0 2
15.0 2
17.5 2
10.0 ADVANCED REACTORS 3
7.5 3
12.7 3
9.5 2
8.5 WASTE MANAGEMENT 24 11.9 24 12.1 24 11.9 23 12.3 MANAGEMENT DIRECTION AND SUPPORT 22 23 22 22 TOTAL 286
$196.8 271
$195.2 260
$209.9 260
$195.0 is
-