Text

Transcript of 820723 Hearing in New City,Ny.Pp 4,468-4,651
	ML20058D054
Person / Time
Site:	Indian Point
Issue date:	07/23/1982
From:	; Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel
To:	;
References
	ISSUANCES-OL, NUDOCS 8207270019
	Download: ML20058D054 (190)
	v • d • e

{{#Wiki_filter:A Pgr NUCLEAR REGULATORY cot 0CSSICN i&

u._

a O ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD O In the Matter ef: CONSOLIDATED EDISON COMPANY OF NEW YORK ) (Indian Point Unit 2) ) DOCKET NO. 50-247 ) POWER AUTHORITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK ) DOCKET NO. 50-286 (Indian Point Unit 31 ) O cArg. July 23, 1982 pAggg: 4468 thru 4651 A=. New City, New York TEo/ W DiafsaccM~ fw /C 0 9 D [F ~ A _r.(am - O -m 400 Virgisia Ave., S.W. Washin g n, D. C. 20024 Telephene: (202) 554-2245 s,'072'co19 020703 PDR ADGCH 05000247 T PDH

4468 O i UN1TED STATES OF Antr 1CA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 4 s 5 In the Matter ofs a Docket Nos.4 s 6 CONSOLIDATED EDISON COMPANY OF NEW YORK (Indian Point Unit 2) s 50-247 SP 7 POWER AUTHORITY OF THE ST ATE OF NEW YORK s 8 (Indian Poin t Unit 3) 50-286 SP s 9 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 10 Clarkstown Town Hall Room 311 11 Congers Road and Maple Avenue j l 12 New City, N.Y. 13 Friday, July 23,'1982 0 14 The hearing in the above-entitled matter was 15 convened, pursuant to recess, at 8s35 a.m. 16 BEFORE: 17 LOUIS J. CARTER, Chairman Administrative Law Judge 18 OSCAR H. PAPIS 19 Administrative La w Judge j 20 FREDERICK J. SHON Administrative La w Judge 21 22 23 O 24 25 O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

f 4469 () 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Licensee, Consolidated Edison Company of New York: O-3 BRENT L. BRANDENBURG, Esq. 4 Assistant General Counsel STEVEN SOHINKI 5 Co nsolida ted Edison Company of New York, Inc. 4 Irving Place 6 New York, N.Y. 10003 7 On behalf of Licensee, the Power Authority of the State of New Yorka 8 JOSEPH J. LEVIN, Esq. 9 Morgan Associates, Chartered 1899 L Street, N.W. 10 Washington, D.C. 20036 11 DAVID H. PIKUS, Esq. RICHARD F. CZAJA, Esq. 12 Shea and Gould 13 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory () Commission Staff: 14 DONALD HASSELL, Esq. HENRY J. M cGURREN, Esq. 15 Washington, D.C. 16 On behalf of the Intervenors: 17 Council of the City of New York: 18 CREED K APL AN, Esq. 19 County of Rockland: 20 ERIC THORSEN, Esq. 11 New Hempstead Road 21 New City, N.Y. 10003 22 23 24 25 l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

t 4470 () 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 On behalf of Intervenors 3 New York Public Interest Research Group l [} 4 NICHAEL DIEDERICH i JOAN HOLT 5 Parents Concerned About Indian Point 6 PAT POSNER 7 P.O. Box 125 Croton-on-Hudson, N.Y. 10520 8 Rockland Citizens for Safe Energy 4 9 JUDITH KESSLER 10 P.O. Box 74 New City, N.Y. 10956 11 Union of Concerned Scientists: 12 JEFFREY BLUN, Esq. 13 New York University of Law , () 40 Washington Square South, Poom 423 14 New York, N.Y. 10011 15 Village of Buchanan 16 WALTER BLAICH, Esq. 17 Westchester County Executive l 18 LAURA VETERE, Esq. I 19 West Branch Conserva tion A ssocia tion s j 20 ZIPPORAH S. FLEISHER 443 Buena Vista Road ( 21 New City, N.Y. 10956 l 22 23 O 24 25 C) i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4470-A OV 1 CONTENTS 2 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS BOARD () A. Glenn Everhart-resumed By Mr. Schinki 4471 4 By Mr. Czaja 4500 5 By Mr. Hassell 4515 By Mr. Thorsen 4516 6 Sam Gdanski-resumed 7 By Mr. Brandenburg 453'2 By Mr. Thorsen 4556 8 By Mr. Brandenburg-resumed 4563 9 Ruth Wein 10 By Mr. Thorsen 4576 By Ms. Fleisher 4579 11 ~By Mr. Posner 4589 By Mr. Czaja 4589 12 By Mr. McGuire 4590 13 By Mr. Czaja 4595 () By Mr. Schinki 4597 14 Leonard Spiegel 15 By Mr. Thorsen 4599 16 (Afternoon Session P. 4610) Leonard Spiegel By Ms. Fleisher 4615 18 By Mr. Brandenberg 4626 By Mr. Pikus 46?1 19 By Judge Paris 4639 By Judge Carter 4640 20 By Judge Paris 4642 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT OF: PAGE 22 Nicki Clossett........................................ 4518 23 2 Linden Court, Pomona, New York fx0 24 Thomas P. Morahan,..................................... 4571 New York State Assemblyman for the 25 96th Assembly District O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4470-B O zx"'a'Ts 2 NUMBER IDENTIFIED RECEIVED PA-13 4531 4 BOUND IN TRANSCRIPT 5 Testimony of Ruth Wein...........................P. 4578 6 Direct testimony of Leonard Spiegel..............P. 4600 7 8 9 10 RECESSES: Morning - 4575 Noon - 4609 End - 4651 4520 11 12 13 0 14 15 16 17 's I' 18 19 20 21 22 23 O 24 25 O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4471 () 1 E_R 0 C E E D 1 M G_S 2 JUDGE CARTER: This hearing is back in order. 3 Mr. Schinki. [ 4 Whereupon, 5 A. GLEN EVERHART, 6 the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed 7 the stand and, having been previously duly sworn, was 8 examined and testified further as follows: 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION -- CONTINUED 10 BY MR. SOHINKI: 11 0 Good morning, Dr. Everhart. 12 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Good morning. 13 0 You indicate in your testimony that you've O 14 been involved in teaching administra tion for over 20 15 years; is that correct? 16 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. 17 0 And how much of that time.has been spent 18 teaching versus administration? i l 19 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I spent four years as a 20 teacher and 21 in administration. 21 0 And what was your motivation for becoming a 22 teacher or becoming involved in education? 23 MR. THORSEN: Judge, I won't object to the ) 24 question at this time. However, I want to see where 25 counsel is going. It seems to be a little bit O ALDERSON PEPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4472 () 1 irrelevant. 2 JUDGE CARTER: It sounds a lot irrelevant to 3 me. Are you going to get us somewhere in this { 4 direction? 5 MR. SOHINKI: It is f oundation, M r. Chairman. 6 JUDGE CARTER : Well, go a little further. I 7 can 't see what it has to do now with this case, what 8 happened 25 years ago. But answer the question. 9 MR. SOHINKIa I don't think that was the 10 question. 11 JUDGE CARTER: The question was what was his 12 motivation for going into teaching. 13 MR. SOHINKIs The question was the motivation () 14 for being involved in teaching. 15 WITNESS EVERHART: I think I'm essentially a 16 p eo ple-o rie n te d person. I like to think of myself as 17 being sensitive to human beings, and working in 18 education I have devoted my entire life to working with l 19 children. 20 BY MR. SOHINKI: (Resuming) 21 Q Now, I think you made a distinction yesterday 22 when you told us in your view a large percentage of 23 teachers might not stay with children in the event of a () 24 radiological emergency. You gave us really two 25 categories of teachers, if I recall, in the category ( ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4473 () 1 that might not stay, the first being those that might 2 have children elsewhere tha t they were concerned about, 3 and the second category I believe were those who you ) 4 could not force to say because their contract didn't 5 call for them to stay past a certain hour; is that 6 right? 7 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That is correct. 8 0 Do you really believe, Dr. Everha rt, that a 9 teacher who had a child who has an emergency, either 10 medical or other emergency, would invoke a contract 11 clause at 3:00 o' clock and leave that child on his own? 12 MR. THORSEN: Your Honor, it is clear that the i 13 witness does believe that, since he answered the same O 14 question yesterday. 15 JUDGE CARTER: Mr. Th orsen, are you making an 16 objection? I l 17 MR. THORSEN: That's the objection. 18 JUDGE C ARTER : What's the grounds for the l l 19 objection? i 20 MR. THORSEN: Asked and answered. 21 JUDGE CARTER: I don't think it was. I wanted l 22 to ask that myself. l l 23 WITNESS EVERHART: Yes. I think if that there ( 24 is sufficient motivation, lack of understanding of the 25 magnitude of the emergency, tha t there are some teachers l ALDERSON REPOR NG COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4474 () I who would opt to abide by the contract rather than 2 concern themselves with the health and welfare of the 3 children, rather than concern themselves with the health () 4 and welfare of the children under their supervision. 5 JUDGE CARTER: What percentage would you say 6 that represents? 7 WITNESS EVERHART: It is purely speculative on 8 my pa rt, but yesterday I said it might be 50-50. I 9 would have answered that question differently 10 years 10 ago, 15 years ago, before the Taylor law and written 11 contracts. But that is the way I feel. 12 BY HR. SOHINKI: (Resuming) 13 0 Have you ever seen a teacher abandon a child () 14 in his or her class when that child's welfare was at 15 stake because they invoked a contract limitation? 16 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Not in tha t -- 17 JUDGE CARTERS Excuse me. Restate the 18 question again. I think you did not mean what you well, go ahead. 19 asked. On the other hand 20 MR. SOHINKI4 Did you understand the 21 question? 22 WITNESS EVERHART I think I do. Let me 23 rephrase it. 24 JUDGE CARTER The other part of the equation 25 was missing, in an emergency situation. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., W ASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4475 () 1 BY MR. SOHINKI (Resuming) 2 Q Well, in any case where a child 's welf are is 3 at stake, either because of a medical emergency or {} 4 because a child had a psychological problem they wanted 5 to discuss, have you ever seen a teacher abandon a child 6 because it was 3:00 o' clock and they wanted to go home, 7 under those circumstances? 8 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Not particularly in that 9 circumstance. I have seen teachers who had after-school 10 supervision say to the principal, it is your 11 responsibility to supervise them, my day ends at 3:00 12 o' clock. And I have seen teachers refuse to end the 13 building in a student demonstration, for fear of their 14 own health and welfare, to carry out supervisory 15 responsibilities in a student demonstration. 16 I have seen people charged with the 17 responsibility of supervising athletic activities l 18 leaving their post rather than be involved in a fracas 19 that might hurt them, as opposed to squelching the 20 riot. So I have seen behavior that bordert on the type l 21 of behavior your questioning. l 22 0 But the circumstances that you just mentioned 23 didn't have to do with the child whose responsibility (~'\\ \\d 24 the teacher had. 25 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I have already said I have } ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4476 () 1 not seen a situation where a teacher abandoned a child. 2 (Pause.) 3 Q All right. I think you testified yesterday 4 the average class size in your district was about 25 5 children, is that right? 6 A (WITNESS EVERHART) It is less than that, 7 depending on the le vel. But it would range from 20 to 8 25, depending on the grade levels involved. 9 0 And what, if you know, is the capacity of the 10 school buses that transport children? 11 A (WITNESS EVERHART) They range from 45 to 60. 12 0 So that if a percen tage of teache rs, even up 13 to'50 percent, decided not to stay with the children, O 14 there would still be sufficient manpower to have a 15 teacher on each bus, is that right? 16 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I would assume so, yes. 17 0 Now, regarding paragraph Roman I.E of your 18 testimony and specifically 1.E.2, could you tell us what 19 training of employees you believe is necessary to carry 20 out an evacuation, evacua tion d uties in the event of a 21 radiological emergency? 22 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Well, having been involved 23 in staff development for about 20 years either as a high () 24 school principal or a superintendent, I have observed 25 that any procedure, no matter how elementary or how ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4477 () 1 simple it is, if you expect employees to carry it out, 2 there is a knowledge base that you have to establish () 3 with all those employees. 4 And one of the things that I think is very 5 essential is that if you want people to carry out a plan 6 they have to know why. And I think part of the staff 7 development here is understanding why it would be 8 essential to be at their post and carry out their duties 9 and board a bus and supervise children, and that would 10 be part of staff development. 11 You cannot simply, assume, because you put it 12 on paper that it's necessary, that people are going to 13 do it. And that is true, if I put in an employee O 14 assistance plan that we're going to have referrals to 15 help employees that may have difficulty, it requires 16 rather intensive staff development, not because people 17 don't understand what is written on paper; it is because 18 people don't understand why what is written on paper. 19 Q So if I understand your testimony, they don't 20 understand why it's necessary? 21 A (WITNESS EVERHART) They don't understand or 22 accept why. 23 0 Why it is necessary for them to accompany 24 children outside the emergency planning zone? 25 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That is correct. And I O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4478 () 1 think it would be safe to assume that if an emergency 2 occurred and a number of teachers didn't comply, one 3 response I would get is, it is not part of the (} 4 negotiated contract. And the next round of 't 5 negotiations, if we wanted to prepare for the 6 contingency it would be part of the negotiated contract, 7 in the event of this kind of an emergency the management 8 will have the right to assion staff members to board 9 vehicles to leave the emergency zone. 10 Q Do you know whether either state law or 11 contract provides for teachers to assist the children in 12 their classes in the event of other types of 13 emergencies? ! O 14 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Certainly. 15 0 And is this in the contract? 16 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No, it is not in the 17 contract. But it'would be a residual. I would classify 18 it as a -- we don't have a management rights clause in 19 our contract, but I would do it if I were a principal or 20 a superintendent under what I believe to be the residual 21 rights of management, unless it is specifically I 22 precluded by the contract to do it. Then an agreement 23 should deal with it later. 0% 24 0 Why wouldn't this cover those type of 25 situations? l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC. j 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4479 () 1 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Because you can tell them 2 to do it but you can't make them do it. I could order 3 people to perform, or a principal could order people to ) 4 perform, in a certain way, but that doesn't guarantee 5 that they are going to do it. 6 0 Now, subparagraph Roman I.E.3 has to do with 7 technical assistance. What type of technical assistance 8 do you believe that you need? 9 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I think that with respect 10 to the overall plan that it would be helpful, as you try well, not ascertain -- you try to 11 to ascer tain 12 establish a certain knowledge level in your discussion 13 with me to get where yo u' re going, I think when you're OV 14 working with a group of employees that you want to 15 behave in a certain way under certain conditions, that 16 there is enough background information, that there is a 17 certain amount of background information that has to be 18 provided. 19 And if I were doing this in a staff 20 development program, I would sta rt with having someone 21 who is very knowledgeable with the whole plan come in 22 and talk with the whole staff, and then break that down 23 and deal specifically with the unusual event, and then ) 24 site emergency and then general emergency, and then deal 25 with the specifics of what had to be done, why it had to O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

1 1 4480 () 1 be done, and the risk that would be taken. 2 Quite frankly, I think that there are people 3 in my staff that could do it, but I think that the 4 people that have put the plan together and know the 5 reason why certain things a re placed in the plan should 6 offer or should be available for technical assistance to 7 the district. 8 0 In the meeting that you attended or the 9 meetings that your predecessors attended to discuss this 10 plan, did anyone ask for that type of explanation? 11 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I don't know that that was 12 specifically asked. You have to remember that I was l 13 actually a guest a t tha t first meeting and I knew no O 14 one. In the second meeting, they had the document in 15 f ront of them and the superintendents had reviewed it l 16 and were r3 acting to that document. 17 If that request were made, I don't recall. 18 (Pause.) l 19 0 Have you ever made a request through either 20 county officials or state officials for someone to come l 21 in or explain the items that you just told us required 22 e xpla na tion ? 23 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I haven't to this poin t, ( 24 because, quite frankly, it's indefinite as'to where 25 Indian Point is going and whether this plan will be O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4481 () 1 carried out. We have not made such a request, nor have 2 we developed a plan locally, an in-district plan. 3 0 Have you had occasion to speak to Don McGuire, 4 the office of emergency services, concerning this plan? 5 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No, I don't know Mr. 6 McGuire. 7 0 You don't know Mr. 3cGuire ? 8 A (WITNESS EVERHART) (Nods in the nega tive.) 9 MR. SOHINKI Boar with me for just one to moment. 11 (Pause.) 12 BY MR. SOHINKI (Resuming) 13 O Are you aware that the department of emergency O 14 services distributed the school procedures section of 15 the Rockland County plan to all principals in your 16 school district? 17 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Not during my tenure. At 18 what point was that distributed? 19 0 This was back in December of 1981. 20 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That would have been l 21 before my time. 22 MR. THORSEN: I'm not sure you got a correct 23 answer. ! () 24 BY MR. SOHINKI4 (Resuming) 25 0 I'm not sure. I was just looking at your i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4482 ) I testimony. You said December 1981 was before your 2 time? 3 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That was distributed in ("} 4 December? I'm sorry, I was thinking '80. 5 0 It was sent to Mr. McGuire, who then sent it l 6 to the principals. l 7 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I was unaware of such a 8 distribution. It did not come to my office. 9 Q It sent directly to the principals. 10 Have any of the principals asked you for 11 additional information based on the knowledge that they 12 had of the plan? 13 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I have discussed this with ( 14 several of my principals, and how much they know about j 1 15 this evacuation I could hold in my right hand. I was 16 appalled at the lack of information the principals had. 17 The principals that I discussed this matter with when I 18 was putting this paper tocether, only two of the 19 principals in my district had even passing knowledge of 20 the details of the plan. l 21 Now, maybe it's their responsibility to read 22 it, but all I'm saying is what they should have known 23 and wha t they know or actually know are two different 24 things. They are not conversant with the plan. They do 25 not know the details of the plan. And none of them O l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, [ = 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S W., W ASHINGTON, C.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4483 1 asked me f or additional inf orma tion relevan t to the 2 plan. 3 JUDGE P ARIS That was two out of how many? 4 WITNESS EVERHART: Two out of eight. 5 BY MR. SOHINKIs (Resuming) 6 Q Don't you consider that a little bit strange, 7 Dr. Everhart, that they would not ha ve been f amiliar 8 with the procedures they were to follow and they would 9 not have asked you for additional information about it? 10 A ( W ITN ESS EVERHART) No, considering the 11 ambivalence in our community over the evacuation plan 12 and the fact that it's up in the air whether it's going 13 to be closed and Rockland County is pulling out, no, I O 14 don't think it is strange,a t all. I think you make the 15 assumption that schools have nothing to do but sit 16 around and develop evacuation plans, and we do have 17 8,000 children to take care of for 180 days and that 18 occupies our time. 19 0 Is that ambivalence due to a lack of concern 20 on the part of these administrators? 21 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No, I think it is a lack 22 of direction on the part of the people that put the plan 23 together. 24 (Pause.) 25 0 I think you testified that you were aware that O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4484 () I the principals had met with the developers of the plan 2 in October of last year, is that right? 3 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes, I was aware. I was 4 made aware of that. 5 0 And were they ambivslent about the plan at 6 that time? 7 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I didn't talk to them 8 about the plan. That was before I came on board. 9 You're talking about October of '80? 10 0 '81. We talked about that yesterday and you 11 told me that you were aware the principals had been met 12 with in October of '81. 13 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I knew they had been met 14 with, but I didn't know the precise date. 15 0 Now, this was before the Rockland County i 16 resolution and before things were up in the air with t 17 regard to Rockland County 's role in the emergency plan, 18 is that right? 19 A (WITNESS EVERHART) There was absolutely no l 20 feedback from that meeting asking for additional 1 21 information on where we were going with the plan. 22 MR. THORSEN I would like to make objection 23 to that question. ) 24 MR. SOHINKI4 It's already been answered. 25 MR. THORSEN: Mr. Schinki, many of these O l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4485 () 1 questions seem to be based on assumptions which have not 2 been established. Here he is assuming there's some sort 3 of a relationship between the school district and the (} 4 county government. Now, the fact is that the North 5 Rockland School District is entirely independent and has 6 very little connection with county government. The 7 county's resolution would have absolutely no effect on 8 the school district. 9 It was in the question. It made the question 10 confusing. It made the question in my opinion worthless 11 as far as any answer, whether it has been answered or 12 not. And I think that I make an objection to the 13 question and answer and ask that it be stricken on that 14 basis. 15 MR. SOHINKI I have two responses, Mr. 16 Chairman. The first is that the question I just asked 17 hadsnothing to do with relationships between school ( 18 officials and county officials and had to do with the i l 19 meeting that took place last year between the principals 20 and developers of the plan. Second I 21 JUDGE CARTER; Hold it right there. Let's 22 have the question and answer, and then you can comment l l 23 on it, so I can hsve it clearly in mind. 24 MR. SOHINKI: Mr. Reporter, can you read back 25 the question. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4486 () 1 (The reporter read the record as requested.) 2 JUDGE CARTER: Let's get back on the record. 3 The motion to strike is denied. Mr. Schinki, {} 4 are you going to continue on this line of what happened 5 last year and last spring? We'd like to get up to 1 6 date. 7 MR. SOHINKI: No, sir. But I think, given the 8 witness' testimony, it was important to establish what 9 information the principals did and did not have and 10 whether they had enough concern to ask for additional 11 information. 12 JUDGE CARTER: I really don't feel that the 13 record would be benefited by a complete exa' ination of m O 14 that, because then you would have to get into which 15 principals you're talking about. 16 MR. SOHINKI: I think we can short-circuit 17 this by saying, I made as complete an examination about i 18 that point as I think I need and I'll move on to l 19 something else. l 20 BY MR. SOHINKIs (Resuming) 21 Q Now, in paragraph Roman II.A of your testimony i 22 you mention tha t the procedure does not address methods l 23 of communication with parents who reside or work outside l 24 of the emergency zone; is that correct? 25 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINlA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4487 () 0 And I think yesterday you expressed a concern 1 2 that parents who might live in New York City or work in 3 New York City or somewhere outside the ten-mile EPZ {} 4 might not be aware that their children have been 5 evacuated? 6 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. 7 0 Do you really believe th a t in the event of a 8 serious radiological accident at Indian Point that no 9 one is going to be aware of that outside of the ten-mile 10 EPZ? 11 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No. I think tha t they 12 would be generally aware of it. But I know how I am as 13 a parent with documents that come home from the school, 14 and I am a school man. And I suggest that if you were 15 to try to go into the homes in Rockland County and found 16 how many had this posted on the front of their 17 ref rigerator, you'd be very disappointed, how many 18 people could actually find it and know where their 19 children were and what center they had been dispatched i 20 to. 21 I have raised that concern because of my 22 experience with parents whose children go on athletic l l 23 trips. /'b} 24 (Pause.) l l l 25 Q Are you aware -- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4488 () 1 JUDGE PARIS. He's not finished. 2 WITNESS EVERHART If you're not going to 3 listen, I'm not going to answer. {~} 4 BY MR. SOHINKIa (Resuming) 5 0 I was listening to you. But go ahead. I was 6 listening. 7 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I say I raised that 8 particular concern because of my experience in dealing 9 with the parents whose children go on field trips and go 10 on activities. 11 Q I heard that. 12 A (WITNESS EVERHART) And they do not recall 13 what time they were to leave, what time they were to get O 14 back, where they were going. And subsequent to that -- 15 well, not subsequent to. Because of that lack of 16 information, we end up getting telephone calls about 17 routine things, auch less an emergency of this sort. 18 0 So your problem is not so much that the 19 parents will not be aware that their children have been 20 evacuated? l 21 A (WITNESS EVERHART) To where. 1 22 Q But to where? 23 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Right. () 24 0 You are aware that there is an emergency 25 broadcast system in the event of an emergency? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4489 ) 1 A (VITNESS EVERHART) I att a ware of that. 2 0 And wouldn't parents be able to find out where 3 the reception centers were where their children were (} 4 going to be bused to by listening to the emergency 5 broadcast system? 6 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I hope so. 7 JUDGE CARTER: Dr. Everhart, you may have 8 testified to this, but how many schools are there within 9 the district? 10 WITNESS EVERHART: We have eight public 11 schools in the district. There are five elementary 12 schools there, K to 3 and K to 5 units, and two middle 13 ' schools housing grades 6 through 8, and one large senior O 14 high school. l 15 JUDGE CARTER Do you know how many of these 16 are within the EPZ? 17 WITNESS EVERHART4 They are all within the l l 18 EPZ. We are the district closest to Indian Point on l 19 this side of the river. 20 At the risk of saying something I shouldn't, 21 perhaps, I want to go back to the paragraph that related i 22 to the staff development, the inference here that l l I 23 perhaps communication initiative with principals in my 24 district was lacking and that is why the staff 25 development didn't proceed. And lest you think that is O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

9 \\! ~ 4490 () 1 the case, I do no,t knnw of one district in Rockland 2 County that ha s - de velo ped in-district plans to implement 3 this evacuation plan. And if you know of any, I'd like {} 4 to know about it. s t i 5 So if the' responsibility falls on the

/

+ 6 shoulders of the scincipals in my district, then indeed, l 7 the principals in the th' ole' county are neglecting their 8 duty, which I don't believe1to be the case.i ! t 9 JUDGE PARIS 4 Dr. 3Everhart, while Mr. Sohinki 10 is deciding on his next qu,estion, you just mentioned 11 parents who work, and yeskerday I asked you a question / 12 about la tchk ey, so -called latchkey children, children in 13 f amilies both parents of' which work. O I believe hou -- well, you testified you were i 14 5 15 unaware of any provision 1n the plan for the evacuation 16 of latchkey children should _there be an accident between ,'/ 17 the time they are dismissed in the afternoon and the 18 time their parents come home f rom wo'rk k,' I 'think ea rlier well, in fact my question then 'was motivated by a 19 statement you made early' on 'tha t Jhou thought 50 percent 20 ^,i i 21 or thereabouts of the children in. your school distript 22 were so-called latchkey children, is that right? 23 WITNESS EV ER H ART : No. Let me c$rrect,that. 1, ( 24 Approximately SO percent, give or take, i ea ch ',o f the 25 attendance areas, give or take a small pe rcer ta g e, 50 -1 0) / x 0, a ALDERSON EPORTING COMP ANY, INC[ 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 I, [ f

4 'l s 4491 () 1 percent come from families where both parents work, but 2 not 50 percent are latchkey. 3 The number of children in each attendance area {} 4 that are clearly identified as latchkey ranges from 5 approximately 50 in the least affected area up to 175 in 6 the most affected area. I don't know exactly what that 7 is in terms of percentages. 8 JUDGE PARIS: What do you mean by the least 1 9 affected area? ), ' ' 10 -WITNESS EVERH ART: Well, in some attendance j f, i[, / 11 areas. Well, there are a number of factors that 7 t 12 contribute to the latchkey situation. In some L 13 attendance areas you don't have as many homes where both CJ 14 parents work out of the home. They might be more 1E affluent. If both parents do work out of the home, they 16 ; have made some provision f or their children's J 17 supervision. l 18 In some of the other, lower socioeconomic 19 areas where they cannot provide daycare centers, the 20 children simply go home to empty houses. ? [ 21 JUDGE PARIS: I see. Can you estimate the j 22, number of these so-called latchkey children in your ~ l ^ ii 23 district, the entire district? j f, Q'. s< 24 WITNESS EVERHART I might be off by 10 or 15 (I l l A 1 25 percent, but we're talking about between 400 and 500 3 p z "( r I ,f, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, i lt i A 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 e

4492 () 1 child ren, probably, in all the neighborhood attendance 2 areas. 3 JUDGE P ARIS: All right. Thank you for 4 clarifying. 5 BY HR. SOHINKI: (Resuming) l l 6 0 Just one other point of clarification. I'm 7 sorry we don't have the transcripts yet. I think we 8 mentioned yesterday reception -- something about 9 reception centers in your district. You are aware there 1 10 are no reception centers? 11 A (WITNESS EVERHART) If I mentioned it, there j 12 are no reception centers in our area. j 13 0 With regard to paragraph Roman C, III.C of O N^J 14 your testimony, on page 3, it mentions two categories of 15 children whom you are concerned about, the first being l 16 children who live outside the EPZ but attend school in i 17 the EPZ, and children who a ttend school out of the EPZ 18 but live in the EPZ. 19 Now, the second, I think we agreed yesterday, 20 based on the clarification of procedures, that the 21 second category is no longer a concern; is that right? 22 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That is correct. I would 23 like to poin t out, though, as I did yesterday, that 24 you're talking about on what basis I assume that bus 25 drivers would have to re-enter the emergency zone, and I O( / ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4493 ( 1 did not have the attachment 4 that gave the bus schedule 2 showing all the buses assigned to schools leaving the (} 3 area. 4 But the original paragraph that I read 5 yesterday on the early revision had a word in there 6 talking about the buses returning. If you recall, the 7 second deletion deleted the word " return," but it still I should think that 8 indicates in paragraph 2 on Sci-4 9 the word here could be clarified, even though I 10 understand it now. 11 I took the time to read this whole section to 12 my wife and ask her to react, and she interpreted it 13 exactly as I interpreted iti The students who reside f~g D 14 outside the EPZ shall also be picked up by parents or 15 will remain in the school until buses have completed 16 their evacuation f unctions and can take them home. 17 I want to know, if the buses have left the 18 emergency zone and have taken children to reception 19 centers, are they now going back to these schools, like 20 our BOCES schools, where children are waitino to go 21 home? I don't understand what buses you're going to use 22 to pick these children up that are attending schools 23 outside the EPZ. 24 MR. SOHINKI4 Mr. Chairman, I would move to 25 strike all of thr.t as nonresponsive to my question and O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4494 ) 1 hearsay. 2 JUDGE CARTER: What was your question, Mr. 3 Sohinki? (} 4 MR. SORINKI: My question was that there were 5 two categories of children mentioned in subparagraph 6 Roman III.C, and I was just clarifying that, based on 7 our discussion of yesterday, that the second category of 8 children is no longer a concern of Dr. Everhart's based 9 on his understanding of the school procedures And he 10 agreed to that and then went on with a speech about what 11 his wife thought about school procedures. 12 JUDGE CARTER:.Well, certainly his wife's 13 opinion may or may not be correct. But at the end of 14 that statement he did again sta te his own concern about 15 the clarity of the arrangements made for students who 16 reside within. I think he was referring to PA-12, 17 Exhibit PA-12, page 4, paragraph 2. Is that correct? 18 WITNESS EVERHARTs That is correct. 19 JUDGE CARTER: And I sha re the wi tn e ss ' 20 confusion on that, because I am having trouble with it 21 as well, particularly -- and I want to put you on notice 22 as to this -- the fact that it contains a condition, to l l 23 wit, in the third line, "if they are evacua ting," which 24 is a condition which is not clear; and in the second 25 sen tence sets forth an alternative, that students who l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, I 400 VIRGIN!A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4495 ( 1 reside outside the EPZ would also be picked up by 2 parents or -- and it is the "or" which causes me a 3 problem -- leave them in the school until the buses have (} 4 completed their evacuation, to return to take them 5 home. I an having difficulty with that. 6 So I think it's not generally proper for the 7 witness to ask a question, but I will take it as a 8 rhetorical question as part of his answer, that he is 9 unable to understand that section. 10 JUDGE SHON: You know, I think it might be 11 well to reword that paragraph so that people having 12 Ph.D.'s and Ll.D.'s and the like can understand it. 13 JUDGE PARIS: I don't think I should have to 14 read it three times to figure out what it says. 15 MR. SOHINKI: I guess I didn't have the same 16 trouble as the Board. 17 JUDGE PARIS: Lawyers are smarter than we 18 are. 19 MR. SOHINKI: Well, that is not at all true, 20 but I guess I have been living with the plan for the 21 last several months. 22 In any case, we will have our panel clarify l l 23 the situation. 24 But on another topic, can I have a ruling on 25 the motion to strike, Mr. Chairman? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4496 () 1 JUDGE CARTER: The motion is denied, except to 2 the extent of the reference to what his wif e said. Of 3 course, you know what the next question has to be: Does {} 4 she have any graduate degree? 5 WITNESS EVERHART: She has a baccalaureate 6 degree and she has been a teacher. 7 JUDGE CARTER: Not having a graduate degree, 8 she should probably have understood it. 9 Go ahead. 10 BY HR. SOHINKI (Resuming) 11 Q Now, concerning subparagraphs Roman III.C.1 12 and 2, in the first subparagraph, 1, you mention the 13 congestion in and around school buildings which would 14 preclude parents from getting close enough to the 15 building to pick up children. And the second one is a 16 concern of your that it is questionable whether or not 17 children can be restrained and made to stay put waitinq 18 for their parents while all the other children are 19 boarding to be evacuated. 20 Now, I hope I'm not reading in that an 21 implicit encouragement on your part for parents to 22 disregard the plan and attempt to pick up their children 23 at the schools? l 24 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No. Those two points are 25 based on my misinterpretation of paragraph 2 and O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W.. WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4497 () 1 thinking that that referred to some children who live 2 outside the EPZ, but attend one of our schools within 3 the EPZ, if some parents in truth were coming to th e 4 school to pick up those children while buses were trying 5 to pick up other children to evacuate. 6 And the second one was whether or not the 7 children who attended schools in our district, but i 8 resided elsewhere, would wait while their peers boarded 9 the buses. In that you have provided some clarification 10 of that, those two issues are moot. 11 (Pause.) 12 JUDGE CARTER: Excuse me. Accepting the l 13 language as submitted of paragraph 2, page 4, PA-12, (} 14 which reads: " Students who reside outside the EPZ will l 15 also be picked up by parents or will remain in school l 16 until buses have completed their evacuation f unctions 17 and can take them home." 18 Are you able to tell a student whether his or l 19 her residence is inside or outside of the EPZ? 20 WITNESS EVERHART: Well, practically all of 21 the children -- 22 MR. SOHINKI: Well, Mr. Chairman, before the 1 1 23 witness answers that, I think to put it in the proper 24 context you ought to be reminded and the witness ought 25 to be reminded that that paragraph relates, as we

()

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINt A AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

l 4498 () 1 established yesterday, solely to schools located outside 2 the EPZ. I want everybody to understand that. 3 MR. CZAJA: Of which this witness has none in (} 4 his district. 5 WITNESS EVERHART4 But I don't understand the 6 reason for that statement even being there. If the 7 students who are a ttending school outside of the EPZ in 8 a school that is not being evacuated, I guess I don't 9 understand the reason for the statement, because if they 10 live outside of the EPZ and they're attending a school 11 outside of the EPZ, are you now directing this to 12 getting them out of the ERPA? 13 I don't understand why the sentence is there. fs() 14 If we have a youngster who lives in Suffern and is 15 attending school in Suffern, why do you say in the plan 16 tha t the st tdent must remain there until the parents can 17 pick him u or the buses are finished and they come to 18 take him heme? 19 BY MR. SOHINKIa (Resuming) 20 0 Well, Dr. Everhart, doesn 't the sentence 21 clearly read, "for students residing outside the EPZ"? 22 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No. " Students residir.g" -23 -- no. The last sentence, I'm reading: " Students who 24 reside outside the EPZ will also be picked up by parents 25 o r will remain in school until the buses have completed O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4499 ( 1 their evacuation functions and can take them home. 2 JUDGE PARIS: I made the assumption, once I (J~T 3 had the sentence explained to me, that that sentence, 4 " students who reside outside the EPZ will also be picked 5 up" and so on, was put in there because the buses that 6 normally take them home at the ordinary dismissal time 1 7 might be tied up in evacuation and might be late coming i 8 back to get these kids, but would come back to pick 9 these kids u p eventually. Is that correct? 10 WITNESS EVERHART: I reread that last night 11 12 JUDGE PARIS 4 Maybe that needs to be 13 explained, too. That assumption might not be made by O 14 all the pr ple. 15 JUDGE CARTER: Well, I was under the 16 impression that because of this BOCES system that the 17 students might be in different schools at different 18 times for different courses. 19 WITNESS EVERHART: Tha t is correct. l 20 JUDGE CARTER: Could they be within and 21 without the EPZ zone for purposes of that instruction? 22 WITNESS EVERHART: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE CARTER: Now, taking another aspect of 24 that -- well, I'll withdraw tha t. 25 JUDGE P ARIS: Before we go on, the statement l l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

6 4500 () 1 tha t I just put into the record in response to Dr. 2 Everhart's testimony was put in in the form of a 3 question, and the question was answered in the {} 4 affirmative by the nod of the head of the expert sitting 5 at the table of the Licensee. 6 WITNESS EVERHART: And I now understand it in 7 that context. 8 JUDGE CARTER: Do you have much more, Mr. 9 Sohinki? 10 MR. SGHINKI4 No, sir, in fact I don't have 11 much more at all. 12 In fact, I think that concludes my 13 examination. O 14 (Pause.) 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF LICENSEE, 16 POWER AUTHORITY OF THE STATE OF MEW YORK 17 BY MR. CZAJA: ~g 18 0 Dr. Everhart, as I understand your testimony 19 this morning, you are appalled at the lack sf 20 information by your principals on the emergency response 21 plan; is that correct? 22 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That is correct. 23 0 And this is based on conversations with two (~) N/ 24 out of the eight principals in your district; is that 25 correct? O l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4501 () 1 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Well, it is based on 2 discussion with my assistan t superintendent, who meets 3 with them regularly, and my personal conversations with (} 4 at least two, possibly three, of the group. 5 0 Do you know how many of the principals'the 6 assistant superintendent has discussed the subject 7 with? 8 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No. 9 0 Now, have you taken any steps whatsoever to 10 set up a meeting with someone who can explain the plan 11 to the principals and to correct this appalling lack of 12 information? 13 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I haven't yet, but I will 14 if Indian Point remains open. And I feel that there 15 should be a plan, but I object to the -- I guess I 16 object to the manner in which it was handled, because we 17 are unaccustomed to having outside agencies impose a 18 need for a program and then not providing the direction 19 and the time to be able to complete tha t progra m. 20 0 Well, have you contacted any outside agency 21 with regard to this? 22 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I have talked to the BOCES 23 superintendent, but I have not talked to an outside ( 24 agency. 25 0 Do you consider the BOCES superin tendent the C) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4502 /~N

)

1 appropriate person to put an inquiry to regarding \\_ 2 explaining the plan to the principals? l f' 3 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. I think he is the d 4 commissioner's representative in this county and his 5 office acts as a clearinghouse, and what is applicable 6 for my district is applicable for at least four of the 7 other eight, and that seems to be a logical area, a 8 logical point for me to go for information. 9 Q But as I understand your testimony, you're 10 really waiting to see if the plant is closed before you 11 attempt to set up a meeting? 12 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Well, I don't know whether 13 I would wait that long. Perhaps if time permits in the 14 fall of the year, we will begin to work on an 15 in-district plan to implement some sort of an evacuation i 16 plan, not knowing the outcome of these hearings or what 17 is going to happen to Indian Point. 18 Q Do you have any plans for evacuating the 19 schools in your district in other situations, for 20 exsmple a chemical spill? 21 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Not specifically that 22 emergency, but we have emergency evacuation procedures 23 in the event if inclement weather. We have a go-home 24 drill f or an emergency, an air raid emergency. We have 25 fire drills to evacuate buildings in the event of O 9 l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, i 1 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4503 1 fires. 2 0 Is there any reason why you haven't taken any 3 steps to develop an evacuation plan in the event of say (~)N 4 a train derailment involving a train carrying toxic 5 chemicals? 6 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I don't think that 7 specific need has been raised during my tenure in the f I 8 district. Obviously no one else has felt the need, so 9 there has been no evacuation plan developed for that l 10 kind of an incident. 11 JUDGE CARTER: Are any of the schools near 12 rail lines? 13 WITNESS EVERHART: Yes, some of them in close O 14 enough proximity that such a plan would certainly be 15 appropriate. 16 BY HR. CZAJA: (Resuming) 17 Q Now, I think in response to Mr. Sohinki's 18 examina tion we established that the methods by which 19 parents would be notified of the reception areas to 20 which their children would be taken in the event of an 21 evacuation would be by means of the public information 22 brochure and radio announcements on the emergency 23 broadcast system. 24 Do you have any knowledge of any other method 25 that you would suggest that could be used to provide ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, I 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l

4504 () 1 this information to parents, other than putting it on 2 the radio and sending a brochure to homes within the 3 EPZ? {} 4 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. And when we indeed 5 develop an industry plan, it will include mechanisms to 6 communicate with parents. Number one, I would duplicate 7 the information, just the portion of the booklet tha t 8 tells the children in the Jay Street School in Stony 9 Point where they would go, and I would isolate that 10 information for each attendance area and reproduce it 11 and make sure that it got to the home either in a 12 newsletter or in a special flyer sent to the home. 13 We also have parent-teacher organizations or 14 home-school organizations, that we have a telephone 15 network that could be activated in the event of an l 16 energency. And we do have this in place now if we want 17 to communicate rapidly with parents about, say, an 18 emergency closing in one school where the boiler coes 19 down or we lose electrical power for some reason and 20 have to close one school, not the whole district. 21 We can use the PTA network to communicate with 22 parents. It's a PTA fan-out, if I can use the term from 23 your plan. 24 25 l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

l 4505 () 1 0 Okay. Let's focus for a moment on your first 2 suggestion, which I understand is basically to have 3 another mailing to the homes in your district, what 4 other mechanism is used for that mailing. Is tha t 5 correct? 6 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That is correct. 7 0 What leads you to believe a second mailing is 8 going to be taped to the refrigera tor when the first 9 mailing wasn't? 10 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I think the first document 11 is general and certainly helpful for information, but if 12 my youngster is going to West Haverstrav Elementary 13 School, I really am not going to concern myself with 14 where the children from fields and the high school are 15 going. I want to concern myself with where my child is 16 going. So the point of the second piece of information 17 going to the home would be to isolate that information 18 that is pertinent to that a ttendance area. 19 0 You have looked a t the public information 20 brochure. Is that right? 21 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. 22 0 Does that information bulletin have specific 23 areas for each school? () 24 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. 25 0 I fail to see how the second mailing could be ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, ~ 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4506 () 1 any more specific than the specific list of what the 2 reception areas are for each school in the district. 3 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Well, that is perhaps 4 because you don't work here with parents and school 5 children, so I wouldn't expect you to understand. 6 0 Well, let's go to the second category, th e 7 t el epho n e. How is that going to be more responsive to 8 your concern, which as I understand it, parents outside 9 the district, working outside the district, knowing 10 where their children are going to be taken to. 11 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That does not address that 12 particular need, but addresses the need of parents 13 within the district. It would be one telephone call C'J T 14 from the principal to the president of the PTA to 15 activate tha t system, and it is also possible that for 16 those homes that parents ha ve made provisions for 17 babysitters, if that telephone network communicated with 18 babysitters in the homes where they were taking care of i l 19 the children who worked outside the district, it might 20 even be possible to touch that other population that 21 works outside the district. I 22 0 Now, this morning you provided some 23 information in response to questions by Judge Paris with () 24 regard to this problem of latchkey children between the 25 tim e school is dismissed and the parents come home from ( l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, l 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C, 20024 (202) 554-2345 I

4507 1 work. Do the schools in your district undertake any (} 2 responsibility for latchkey children during that time 3 period for any sort of emergency? O 4 A (WITNESS EVERHART) As of September, ' 8 2, we 5 will be taking some responsibility. 6 Q And what is the nature of that responsibility 7 that you will be undertaking? 8 A (WITNESS EVERHABT) There will be in one 9 attendance area a pilot program serving probably 60 to 10 70 youngsters in grades three, four, and fi ve, that will 11 provide supervised activities generally between the 12 hours of 3:00 and 6:00 o' clock, and that is a pilot 13 project that will likely be implemented in September of 14 this year. 15 0 And other than the children involved in that 16 pilot program, do you undertake any responsibility for 17 latchkey children between the time school is dismissed i 18 and the time the parents arrive? 19 A (WITNESS EVERHABT) Indirectly, we do. We 20 have a rather extensive program of supervised after l 21 school activities. We do not schedule them specifically 22 for latchkey children, but obviously the intent of the 23 district is to make supervised activities available for () 24 children after school hours, so we have a rather 25 extensive program that provides a place for many of O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4508 1 those children to go for a period of time after school. (]} 2 0 Well, let's turn to the situation of a child 3 who for whatever reason is not involved in the pilot 4 program and is not involved in an after school activity, 5 but is in fact in the situation that you describe in 6 response to Judge Pa ris 's question. Th e child is at 7 home between the time school was dismissed and the time 8 his parents come home from work. Does your school 9 system undertake any responsibility for that child in 10 _the event of any emergency? 11 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No. 12 JUDGE PARIS: In regard to the children 13 involved in these, I guess, voluntary after school 14 activities, and also with regard to the children that 15 will be involved in the pilot program for supervised 16 activity of latchkey children that will go into effect 17 next year, would there be any way to evacua te these 18 students if an emergency should develop during 'he 19 supervised activity period after school? 20 WITNESS EVERHART: We haven't specifically 21 addressed that contingency, but yes, we do have buses 22 available, our middle school and high school, what we 23 call la te buses, and they are available, and if we had () 24 to for some reason terminate those activities abruptly, 25 those buses could be available in a very short period of O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.V!,, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

l 4509 (]) 1 time to remove the students from the school. 2 JUDGE PARIS: Okay. Thank you. 3 BY MR. CZAJA: (Resuming) 4 0 Let's turn to Page 1 of your position paper, 5 Dr. Everhart, and yesterday you told us tha t your 6 estimate was that 50 percent of each of the categories 7 under I.C on Page 1 of your position paper would in fact 8 remain with the children or follow their duties 9 generally according to the plan. Let's first focus on 10 your estimate with regard to the teachers. What was the 11 basis for that estimate? 12 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Probably just personal ~ 13 experience. I did not make that estimate in writing. I (~ \\- 14 made that estimate in response to a direct question, and 15 the only thing I can base it on is 25 years of 16 experience in observing people, and I would say based on 17 present knowledge level and present understanding of 18 evacuation plans and present knowledge level as I 19 perceive it with the whole issue of Indian Point, and 20 wha tever imminent hazards it imposes, I would say that 21 it's a 50-50 kind of thing. 22 I know there are people in our school system 23 that are dedicated, that would be there no matter what, () 24 and there are other people who work by the contract, and 25 unless it was specifically required tha t they be there, O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4510 (} 1 I question whether they would be there. 2 0 Have you ever been involved in an evacuation 3 of a school in your 25 years of experience? O 4 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Be more precise when you 5 talk about evacuation. 6 0 Well, were the schools ever closed and the 7 children taken to another location while school was in 8 session? 9 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. I have closed the 10 school because of inclement weather early during the 11 school day, and removed them to their homes. We have 12 evacuated schools because of a fire. Schools have been 13 evacuated because of student demonstrations. O k-14 0 Well, let's take the fire situation for a 15 moment. Did any of the teachers fail to remain with the l 16 children due to the evacuation of the school due to fire? 17 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. ( 18 Q When did that occur? 19 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I was a high school 20 principal in the mid-sixties, and we had a fire, and I 21 found that some people did what was expedient. This was 22 a high school situation, and rather than follow the 23 drills, they did what was expedient. I don 't think the () 24 intent was to leave the children, but the intent was to 25 do what was expedient rather than what they had been () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4511 () 1 conditioned to do in the drill. 2 JUDGE PARIS Wha t do you mean by what was 3 expedient? 4 WITNESS EVERHART Well, rather than taking 5 the children down the corridor and out the exit 6 designated, they would go another route, the quickest 7 exit out. 8 JUDGE CARTER: What they considered -- 9 WITNESS EVERHART: What they considered to be 10 the most expeditious route. 11 JUDGE PARIS: In spite of the fact that they 12 had presumably had fire drills in which they had gone 13 out the prescribed route? 14 WITNESS EVERHART: That is correct. And when i 15 one group doesn't follow the procedure, a traffic i l 16 pattern is set up in a building to facilitate smooth 17 exits, and when one group is in an auditorium or a l 18 location where they didn't expect to be when that fire l 19 occurred, they go where they think they should go, and i 20 when they do, they are cutting across other traffic, and l 21 that is what creates problems in evacuation plans, and I l 22 am talking about the evacuation of a single building. 23 BY MR. CZAJA: (Resuming) () 24 0 Well, did any of those teachers abandon their 25 children in that fire? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4512 1 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I wouldn't say they (} 2 abandoned them,but they weren't with them and 3 supervising them as closely as I would have expected O-4 them to be. 5 0 And what percentage of the teachers in that 6 instance did what was expedient? 7 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I think that is a 8 difficult question to answer, but you are talking about 9 maybe 5 percent or 10 percent. 10 JUDGE CARTER: Mr. Czaja, where will that be 11 covered under the licensee 's testimony on off-site 12 planning? Is there a witness who will be testifying on 13 that? ) MR. CZAJAs Yes, we will be presenting Dr. 14 15 Russell Dimes of the Ohio State Disaster Research 16 Center, who has done extensive research. Also, Dr. 17 Sidney Lucker, a psychiatrist who has done research. 18 JUDGE CARTER: Thank you. 19 BY MR. CZAJA: (Resuming) 20 0 Let's turn to Page 2. 21 MR. THORSEN: Your Honor, may I ask your 22 indulgence? I asked Mr. Gdanski to be here this morning 23 at 9:15. He actually got here at 9:00. He also l () 24 informed me he has to leave just before 11:00 o' clock. 25 He has an appointment that he has to make. I know Mr. ) l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4513 1 Brandenburg had indicated through Mr. Sohinki that his (} 2 cross examination of Mr. Gdanski would take 3 approximately an hour. I know Mr. Everhart would also O 4 like.to finish up. 5 JUDGE CARTER: I expect that we will be 6 through with Mr. Everhart fairly shortly. let 's go for 7 another 20 minutes and see how we do. 8 BY MR. CZAJA: (R esuming ) 9 0 Directing your attention to Page 2 of your 10 position paper, Dr. Everhart, II.B, you refer to a storm 11 alert f anout. From the terminology used, I assume that 12 this system is used in situations other than a 13 radiological emergency. Is that correct? 14 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes, we have similar f I 15 systems. 16 0 Could you briefly describe when that system is 17 used and how it is used? 18 A (WITNESS EVERHART) If we close school, each 19 building has an emergency phone system where -- well, it 20 starts with the district. It starts with the central l 21 office, where I am apprised of weather conditions that 22 precipitate the need for closing, and once I make the 23 decision to close, then each of my subordinates in the () 24 central office are required to call four or five 25 people. They in turn call four or five more people, so 1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPA Y,INC, ~ 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l' --

4514 () 1 that district-wide personnel is notified by telephone of 2 the emergency and the fact tha t we are closing or we are 3 remaining open. gg \\.) 4 In each building, the same type of system, 5 where the principal is called and the principal calls 1 6 the assistant principal, and he calls. the department 7 chairmen, and the department chairmen call the teachers. 8 It might not be specifically those ranks, but that is 9 the network. 10 0 I believe yesterday in response to one of Mr. 11 Dieterich's questions, you in turn raised a question as 12 to whether a principal could deny access of a parent to 13 his child. To your knowledge, is there any provision in 14 the Rockland County emergency plan pursuant to which a 15 principal would be expected to deny access by a parent 16 to that parent's child? 17 A (WITNESS EVERH ART ) I don't recall that it 18 speaks to the issue. 19 0 I believe also you raised yesterday the l 20 problem of a situation where there is a broken home, and 21 one parent wants to remove the child from school and the l 22 other parent does not want to remove the child from 23 school. Do you recall that testimony? () 24 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes. 25 0 Does that situation arise at any other point O ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4515 () 1 in the operation of the school system? 2 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Yes, it does, and it is 3 usually difficult to resolve. 4 0 Do you resolve it? 5 A (WITNESS EVERHART) We always have. 6 Q Are you aware of any proposals to install tone 7 alerts in the schools? 8 A (WITNESS EVERHART) No. 9 MR. CZAJAs I have nothing further, Dr. 10 Everhart. 11 JUDGE CARTERS Thank you, Mr. Czaja. 12 Mr. Hassell? 13 BY MR. HASSELL: l l () 14 0 Dr. Everhart, yesterday, in response to 15 examination by Mr. Dieterich, I believe you indicated 16 that the part-time bus drivers had other jobs. Is that 17 correct? 18 A (WITNESS EVERHART) That is correct. 19 0 What is your basis for that? l 20 A (WIINESS EVERHART) My basis is just the 21 experience that bus drivers normally work a period of 22 time early in the morning when they are taking children i 23 to school and then picking them up, and I know from past 24 experience that some are housewives, and some are people 25 who are engaged in other occupations, that have two i l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4516 (} 1 hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon 2 a vailable to do this. 3 0 I do have one other question. Would you O 4 agree, Dr. Everhart, that a teacher's first 5 responsibility for children that are under their 6 supervision is the children 's safe ty ? 7 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I think that is -- yes, 8 high on the list of expectations of a teacher. 9 HR. HASSELL I have no further questions. 10 JUDGE CARTER: Thank you. 11 Mr. Thorsen, do you have any further 12 questions? 13 MR. THORSEN: I believe Mr. Die te rich -- 14 JUDGE CARTER: Well, do you, Mr. Thorsen? 15 MR. THORSEN I just have a couple of 16 questions. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. THORSEN: 19 0 Doctor, do you know the total number of buses 20 which are used by the school district in transportation 21 of the students? 22 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I really don't know the 23 total number of buses, but if you take an average of 60 () 24 people per bus, and we have 8,000 pupils to move, the 25 number of buses required would be 120 or so buses, if () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

I 4517 /~T 1 you moved them all at once. My arithmetic might be off V 2 there, 140 buses, but I really do not know the number of 3 buses available from Haverstraw Transit at this time or 4 what would be available, whether he owned them or he had 5 access to them through other transportation companies. 6 0 Do you know the number of students that are 7 bused in.ne school district? 8 A (WITNESS EVERHART) Not the exact number. 9 0 Do you have an approximation? 10 A (WITNESS EVERHART) I would say somewhere in 11 the neighborhood of 7,000. 12 0 Now, if the school district decided that a 13 specific contract clause was desirable dealing with 14 radiological emergencies, and teachers' contingency 15 duties in the event of a radiological emergency, do'you 16 believe that some sort of consideration would be 17 required for the addition of a clause like th a t to the 18 contract? 19 MR. BRANDENBURG: I object, Mr. Chairman. 20 JUDGE CARTER I don't understand what you 21 mean by additional consideration. Do you mean 22 additional compensation? 23 MR. THORSEN: Additional compensation. That's O 24 rioht. 25 JUDGE CARTERS I will let the question go. l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

J f4518 1 WITNESS EVERHART: I think it would be 2 negotiable. I 3 MR. THORSEN I have no further questions. O 4 JUDGE' CARTERS Are there any other questions? > t i 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGEFCARTERs Thank you very much, Dr. 7 Everhart. , > f, ' a. +.i 8 WITNESS EVERHARTs Thank you. ,( 9 (Witness excused'.) to HR. THORSENs. Judge, if I can, I have been 11 advised by a member of the audience that she has another 12 petition she would like to present with a very short 13 limited sta tement. 14 JUDGE. CAR E Yes. ',/- f 15 MR. THORSEN: I would'like to recognize Xicki , 'j ; p 3 16 Closset. /- 1 17 LIMITED APPE AR AN.CE ST ATEMENT BY NICKI CI,0SSET s. MS.Ch0'SSETs These are copies of petitions 18 1 19 that contain 2,005, signatures. About 200 more are J These were collected by Rockland Families 20 coming todsy.' 21 to Close Indian Point, also Citizens for Safe Energy, 22 and the Rockla'nd Atlia'n'e on Nuclear Danger. The c t numbers of s$gnatures, collected are only limited by the ,g l 23 O 24 sh rt amount of time that we had to collect them, and 25 also by the fact tha t, so marty' of us either work or take i A /J t' care of ,e' p c 7 %) s J s O / h, ih / ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 's 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 2002s sc2) 554 234/} l J

/ 4519 r 1 small children. p) \\m 2 The experience of people from all three of the 3 groups was that it was extremely easy to collect 4 signatures on this subject. People wanted to sign. 5 Almost everyone we asked did sign, and thanked us for r' 8 it, because they wanted to do something, just anything 7 to close Indian Point. People seemed very frightened by 8 the booklet they received. They were frightened because / [ 9 they knew that the roads of Rockland County could not 10 tolerate a mass exodus. // 11 We know how hard it is to get on the parkways . R 12 on a Sunday afternoon in the summer. Also, we were very ij 'I 13 frightened because we felt that bus drivers would not (b 14 come back into contaminated areas for our children. We 15 also knew that we would not sit in our homes or go 18 looking for them in a place where they might not even 17 be, and most people did say that they would rush to the 18 schools, and all we could see is real chaos, mass chaos. 19 Some people were even more disturbed recen tl y + 20 when they found that Con Edison was suing Westinghouse i 21 for the design and the manufacture and the installation 22 of the steam generators. We felt that if ti.3t <2s ./ 23 happening, it must be pretty bad. '.[ ) 24 The last thing I just want to say is that most 25 of these people are here in spirit today. '^ Ji s ' '

l. i[]

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

14520 1 Thank you. 2 JUDGE CARTER: Would you state your full name 3 and address for the record? O 4 MS. CLOSSETs Yes, my name is Nicki Closset, 5 N-i-c-k-i, C-1-o-s-s-e-t. My address is 2 Linden Court, 6 Pomona, New York. 7 JUDGE CARTER 4 Before we continue with Mr. 8 Gdanski, we will take a five-minute recess, and I would 9 like to see the attorneys outside. 10 (Bench confe rence. ) 11 JUDGE CARTER: Mrs. Fleisher, you raised a 12 problem of the probabilistic stud y, and then we were 13 given a letter by Mr. Levin. I think he distributed a 14 letter dated May 26th, 1982. Now, do I understand, Mr. 15 Levin, that your position is that this letter is binding 16 on Mrs. Fleish er ? Is that, simply. stated, what your 17 position is? s 18 MR. LEVIN: That is correct. 19 JUDGE CARTER: Are you familiar with the terms 20 of this letter? 21 MS. FLEISHERs I didn't know all the terms at 22 the time, and now that I've read the letter, I am 23 familiar with it. O 24 JUDGE CARTER. whet seems to me to he e 25 difficulty with this is that this copy was given to Mr. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 ___.._.__J

4521 1 Jordan, who then sent it out to Palo Alto, California, ) 2 to Mr. Wetherwax. Is that his name? Mr. Blum, Mr. 3 Schinki, Mr. Blum and I were talking about this O 4 problem. Because the questions could not be answered, 'S ve had to order an additional copy to be made. Is that 6 the probles that we are having here? 7 MR. LEVINs I understand it is. 8 JUDGE CARTERa Well, let me ask one other fact 9 question. What are the questions that you feel you need 10 this for to answer? Are you answering questions on the 11 probabilisitic risk assessment? 12 MS. FLEISHER: We had expected to, sir. He 13 are down on 1, 2, and 5. () 14 JUDGE CARTER: Well, wha t are the 15 interrogatories? 16 MR. BRANDENBURGa Well, Mr. Chairman, I think 17 there is an important distinction between Mr. Blum's 18 situa tion a nd Ms. Fleicher's. Mr. Blum told the Board 19 he required a copy of the study in order that he could 20 respond to interrogatories put to his clien t by the 21 licensees about the Indian Point probabilistic safety 22 study. 23 JUDGE CARTER: I don't know whether the () 24 interrogatory in question Number 1, to whom it was 25 addressed. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 P.02) 554 2345

4522 (} 1 MR. SOHINKI: F0E, Audubon, Parents, and 2 USC/NYPIRG. 3 MR. BRANDENBURG An important distinction O 4 exists with regard to Mrs. Fleisher, and that is, our 5 interrogatories to West Branch did not ask West Branch 6 any questions about the Indian Point probabilistic 7 safety study. 8 MS. FLEISHER: Your Honor, is the only use of 9 the book to reply to interroga tories? 10 JUDGE CARTER: What is your point? 11 MR. LEVIN: I have a couple of things to say, 12 and I have very little else to say. First of all, if 13 the Board orders us to provide Volume 1, which is what I 14 understand Ms. Fleisher wishes, of course, we will do l 15 tha t promptly. My concern is how we are to operate in a 16 situation -- we. understand we have agreemen ts, and that 17 the agreements are abrogated. I am concerned also 18 because it seems to me that if Mrs. Fleisher needs 19 Volume 1, a nd Mr. Blum now has a copy of the entire set, 20 he can provide that to her without having a 21 confrontation with the licensees, and it could be 22 putting the Board in the position of having to consider l 23 whether to abrogate an agreement that was entered into 24 freely by the parties. 25 MR. BP,ANDENBURG A copy of the study tha t was l O l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4523 () 1 in California evidently was as much Mrs. Fleisher's as 2 it was Mr. Blum's. They each have equal access to it, 3 and that is the essence of the agreement we struck. 4 MS. FLEISHER Just a minute. I live 50 miles 5 from Mr. Blum. That is unfortunate, and I would not 6 only have to go into the city and -- 7 MR. LEVIN: He can make a copy. 8 MR. SOHINKIa I think one more important 9 thing, Mr. Chairman, is, you encouraged us to work out 10 agreements on discovery on our own. This is a situation 11 where Mr. Jordan entered an agreement after Ms. 12 Potterfield came with all the other intervenors, and you 13 have the agreement in front of you. We worked it out on b 14 our own. Mr. Jordan said that is the only one ther 15 would need based on conversations with all the other 16 intervenors. And, you know, it just seems to me that if 17 ve can't rely on those types of agreements, then we are 18 going to have real problems. JUDGE CARTER: Mrs. Fleisher, it seems to me 19 20 the question, Number One, does not include any 21 contentions made by West Branch Association, though I am I I 22 sure it might be helpful and interesting to you. As a 23 general proposition, with regard to this narrow t 1 () 24 question, there is no real need on the record for you to 25 have the probabilistic study, which I understand is in f l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTCN, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4524 (~J') 1 White Plains. ~ 2 MS. FLEISHER: Sir, it is indeed in White 3 Plains, and the White Plains library is closed on 4 Saturdays and Sundays. Mr. Fleisher and another man 5 work, and they cannot get to the White Plains library 6 during the week. 7 JUDGE CARTER: I am trying to first discover 8 why you need the document. 9 MS. FLEISHER Unfortunately, Mr. Fleisher is 10 working on interrogatories today, and he hasn't been 11 able to furnish that order, but he feels there is an 12 item in there, Number One. Number Two, I believe that 13 the file is open to anyone who wants to respond. ( 14 Doesn't that say any party may? 15 JUDGE CARTER: No, in Question Number Five, 16 WBCA is the lead intervenor. 17 MS. FLEISHER: May I ask, it is either Five or 18 Six that sa ys -- I just don 't have it today. I haven't 19 got it. It says the staff shall address the subject, 20 and it says any intervenor may who also wishes to. Your 21 Honor, I really -- I want to tell you something. This l 22 isn't worth it to me. I mean, I just want to leave the 23 issue, if these people feel tha t way about making one . () 24 copy -- 25 JUDGE CARTER: Mrs. Fleisher, I just want to i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, I 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4525 1 go through it so I have it. Now, as I understand the {} 2 g en tleman, 5.1, that is based on the WBCA contention 3 that involves those associated with plans, risks O 4 associated with the plant, or whether they are greater 5 than those associated with other plants. Now, that 6 raises the overall question of risk assessment. Volume 7 1 covers the methodology of considering the problem. I 8 have little difficulty in seeing the proper answer to 9 any questions or participation would require seeing the 10 study. 11 MR. LEVINs Your Honor, the problem is, 12 though, is what we have here is a dispute among the 13 intervenors. 14 MS. FLEISHER: No, we don't. 15 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Blum has a copy from which he 16 can make a copy for whatever purpose Ms. Fleisher 17 needs. We have an agreement. If we can't rely upon our 18 agreements, we are going to be in trouble. 19 MS. FLEISHER : Your Honor, I would like to 20 make a statement, just taking a second. On June the 2nd 21 I -- there is an agreement called 10 CFR that requires 22 you to make an answer that you have yet to make. 23 JUDGE CARTER: Let's go first to the letter. () 24 The problem arises from the letter f rom Mr. Jordan to 25 Mr. Morgan and Mr. Brandenburg. Did you see this letter? O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4526 1 MS. FLEISHER: I have seen it today, or {} 2 yesterday. 3 JUDGE CARTER: Was yesterday the first time O 4 you saw it? 5 MS. FLEISHER: Yes. When Ms. Potterfield 6 called me, I was not aware that one of the copies would 7 be going to Washington or to California. Two copies 8 seem like enough. But now that there is only one copy 9 in the east, I.would like another copy. I have agreed to to borros from Mr. Blum 2 to 12 for a short period of 11 time, because I have already read them and I understand 12 what they are about, and I don't think we are going to 13 have to study them. It is Volume 1 that we will need. 14 MS. HOLT: Could I just say something about 15 the agreement? I think Mr. Levin, when he said this 16 represented a dispute among the intervenors, I will 17 truly say that I think there was some misunderstanding l 18 amongst the intervenors about just what was going to be 19 agreed to, and that Mrs. Fleisher is aware of tha t, and 20 tha t if we are to be held very strictly to that, we will 21 have to be, but on the other hand, there was, I think, a 22 little misunderstanding, on the amount of access that we 23 should have, a nd it is cort of touch for us to always 1 () 24 spell it out when we are not close enough to have 25 everybody initial and approve everything that goes out l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 _~

4527 l l 1 in writing. 2 We have tried our best. I think this is the 3 first time that something like this has happened. We O 4 will certainly try in the future to make sure that 5 everybody sees or hears the text of something. 6 JUDGE CARTER: Vell, as I read the letter, 7 which is dated May 26th, it appears that the primary 8 purpose of this was to preserve the proprietary interest 9 that the experts had in this document, that you didn 't 10 vant it spread around, and with regard to making other 11 copies available, how big is the document we are talking 12 about? Vo1ume 1, I suspect, is about 200 or 300 pages. 13 I can't be11 eve that the photocopying of 200. to 300 14 pages requires this much time. I think that the 15 document ought to be made availab1e to the lead 16 intervenor on tha t one point. She is only asking for 17 one-twelfth of the document, and I think if there is a 18 proprietary problem about giving it out to any person, 19 that you should agree not to photocopy it or make it 20 available to others, ant. use it only in answering the 21 questions that she ner.ds. 22 MR. BRANDENBURGs I take it then, Mr. 23 Chairman, that Mr. Blum can make a photocopy for Mrs. O 24 v1eisher. 25 JUDGE CARTER: Gen tlem en t, I estima te the i O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4528 () 1 legal costs to the licensees at about $2,000 a day on 2 this case. I don't want to have this kind of 3 penny-pinching dispute going on when we have so many O 4 other more important problems to discuss. Please, spare 5 us this problem. 6 Mr. Levin? 7 MR. LEVIN: I just want to put the letter in 8 the record, Your Honor, and if we could have this marked 9 f or identification as Power Authority and Con Ed Exhibit 10 -- we had better make it Power Authority Exhibit 13, PA 11 Exhibit 13. Have it marked, and unless someone has some 12 objection, or the Board has some objection, we would 13 offer it into evidence on this point. 14 MS. FLEISHER I would prefer -- 15 JUDGE CARTER: Let him finish. 16 MR. LEVIN: We would offer it into evidence on 17 this point. We really have nothing further to say. 3 18 MR. BLUM: I would have some objection to 19 that. If that is going on, we need to show some of the 20 surrounding context of it. There is no need to have it 21 in the record. 22 MR. LEVIN It is like a promissory note. 23 MS. FLEISHER: Your Honor, may I say on that, () 24 supposing I thought that was enough and I have nov 25 changed my mind. Just supposing tha t happe ned, tha t O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4529 1 wouldn't hurt us. It happens sometimes, when you are [} 2 working on things, you feel that you have made a mistake 3 or you haven 't got enough material. It is human. I O 4 can 't see making this issue of it. I can't see putting 5 it in the record. 6 MR. LEVINs We nevertheless offer it. 7 JUDGE CARTER 4 If you want to put it in the 8 record, you can put it in the record. Whatever you want 9 to do with it is all right. Mr. Brandenburg? 10 MR. BRANDENBURGs Mr. Chairman, I do ha ve a 11 comment with respect to the point you made about 12 Commission Question Number 5. I have yet to hear 13 anything that suggests tha t this document should be ) 14 treated differently from any other document. I am sure 15 there are literally thousands of other documents that 16 Mrs. Fleisher should and could consult in connection 17 with her case on Question 5. I have heard nothing as to 18 why this document should be treated any differently. 19 If the NRC staff is going to be providing 20 three copies of NUREG documents to all the parties and 21 things of that sort upon request, then presumably we 22 will proceed in that fashion. My understanding of the 23 discovery rules and the rules of practice, however, is () 24 that documents are produced for examination by other 25 parties. They select which copies they wish to have O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C 20024 (202) 554-2345

4530 (]) 1 further copies of, and they make photocopies of those. 2 I am not aware of any basis, and I have heard nothing 3 here this morning, given the history of this dispute, as O 4 to why we should deviate from that practice with respect 5 to this particular document. 6 MR. BLUMs Is this study going to be 7 introduced into evidence? 8 MR. BRANDENBURG: We will address that, Mr. 9 Blum, when we get to that phase of the case. 10 JUDGE CARTER: I think it is a fair question. 11 MR. LEVINs It is highly likely that it will 12 be, but there are no guarantees in any of this. 13 MS. FLEISHER Mr. Brandenburg, the staff has O \\_ 14 sent us the Sandia study -- 15 JUDGE CARTERS Mrs. Fleish er, what the staff 16 has sent you is irrelevant to this question. It seems 17 to me, and I as ruling that the intervenor has a right 18 to borrow a copy of the document during the discovery 19 period, notwithstanding the letter of May 26th, 1982, 20 which I have marked as PA-13, and is subject to an l l 21 objection from Mr. Blum as to its admission. We will 22 reserve decision on the admission of the le tter into 23 evidence. () (The document referred to 24 was marked for 4 25 O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY (NC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 ._t

4531 (} 1 identification as Exhibit 2 Number PA-13.) 3 MR. BR ANDENBURG May I ask the basis for the O 4 Board 's ruling under the Rules of Practice? 5 JUDGE CARTER: Mr. Brandenburg, I cannot cite 6 you a rule other than the rule that says that the Board 7 shall handle the matters before it in an efficient and 8 f air manner. I think that the circumstances of this 9 investigation require that it be made available. 10 Previously, I had postponed asking the question, but I 11 shall now ask the question and expect you to tell me how 12 many copies of the document were prepared and what 13 distribution was made of the document. 14 MR. BRANDENBURG: Well, I am glad you asked 15 that question, Mr. Chairman. 16 JUDGE CARTERS You don 't have to answer the 17 question at this time. I have told you that a copy 18 should be made available to the intervenor during the 19 period of discovery, and the Board has ruled. 20 JUDGE PARIS: It seems to me it is adequately 21 covered under 10 CFR 2.74B(1). 22 MR. BRANDENBURGs What is the Board 's pleasure 23 with respect to the cost of producing the copy tha t is () 24 to be given to Ms. Fleisher? 25 JUDGE CARTER: Are you sta ting to the Board O) (, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4532 (} 1 there is no other copy of Volume 1 available? 2 MR. BRANDENBURGs I am stating that all copies 3 in the possession of Con Edison are presently in use, O 4 and that a copy of this extensive document would have to 5 be made at someone's expense in order to provide a copy 6 to Mrs. Fleisher. 7 JUDGE CARTER: The Boerd's order is that you 8 will make the copy available and provide the information 9 with regard to the number that were produced initially, 10 the number that were distributed, to whom they were 11 distributed, and whether any additional photocopies were 12 made from the original issue. This is the end of the 13 discussion of this matter. We will continue now with f% 'd 14 Mr. Gdanski. 15 (Bench conference concluded.) 16 JUDGE CARTER: We are back on the record. Mr. 17 Gdanski is present for additional cross examination. 18 Mr. Brandenburg, do you have some questions? 19 Whereupon, 20 SAM GDANSKI 21 was recalled as a witness, and having been previously 22 duly sworn, resumed the stand, and was examined and 23 testified further as follows: () 24 CONTINUED CROSS EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. BRANDENBUPG4 O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4533 1 0 Mr. Gdanski, you state a t Page 2 of your [ }; 2 testimony that Rockland County has never contributed to 3 the funding of the plan. Let me see if I can give.you a 4 line reference. About eigh t lines up from the bottom of 5 the page. 6 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Yes. 7 0 Now, do I correctly assume that you are 8 referring to the plan in the form that it existed prior 9 to the May 18th resolution of the Rockland Co un ty 10 legislature? 11 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Well, that is correct, but 12 it is also correct as of today. 13 0 Are you referring here to the funding of the 14 preparation of the plan, or the funding of the 15 implementation activities of the plan? 16 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) The implementation 17 activities. 3 18 0 If you know, Mr. Gdanski, what is the 19 aggregate amount of expenditures which Rockland County 20 has made for radiological emergency preparedness, say, 21 in the last two years. 22 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I do not know. 23 0 Are you aware of any expenditures from () 24 Rockland County, the revenues that Rockland County has 25 made for radiological emergency preparedness in the past O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4S34 I'T 1 two years? (./ 2 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I am not aware of any. I 3 believe the first time we were informed of the 4 requirement to do so was a result of federal regulations 5 adopted in the wake of Three Mile Island. 6 0 Yes, and since that time, has Rockland County, 7 to your knowledge, expended any funds whatsoever for 8 radiological emergency preparedness? 9 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) We expended funds for the 10 staff departments through the guise of in-house salaries 11 that we are paying them for the time spent in reviewing 12 the plans, and in consulting with various personnel, so 13 in that format we have. We may have also spent 14 additional funds for some equipment, but I don't know 15 the answer to that. 16 0 All righ t. Now, with respect to the staff -- 17 the time of the county staff personnel, how is that 18 accounted for? 19 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I don 't understand the 20 question. 21 0 Is that time logged or recorded in some 22 fashion? 23 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I think that would vary () 24 from department to department. I don't know the answer 25 to that. I know estimates were made, I believe, though, O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4535 1 of the amount of time spent' in connection with reviewing (} 2 and participating in the formulation of the plan. 3 0 And in what connection were those estimates O 4 made? 5 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) We attempted to get 6 reimbursed from various municipal agencies, the state 7 agency, I believe, and also perhaps from the federal 8 government for the amount of time spent, and estimates 9 were prepared in that connection. 10 0 Was this reimbursement sought subsequent to 11 and in connection with the March 3rd exercise on the one 12 hand, or instead upon all of the time of county 13 personnel that has been devoted to emergency planning 14 since change in emergency planning regulations? 15 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I don 't know the ansver.to 16 that. It may have been just for the drill, but maybe 17 for both aspects. I don't know. 18 0 Are you aware of how much reimbursement has 19 been sought? 20 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I believe the dollar figure 21 put on the reservation which was passed by th e 22 legislature was $30,000, but I may be -- that is my 23 understanding. () 24 0 I believe the $30,000 amount was for expenses 25 directly attributable to prepara tion of the March 3rd O \\ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, ~ 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4536 1 exercise. Are you aware of -- well, maybe we can 2 clarify this. 3 JUDGE CARTER. Excuse me. Mr. Brandenburg, if O 4 you are going to get into the money spent by the county, 5 wouldn't that better be asked of Mr. Grant, who is in 6 charge of the whole organization? I mean, if you want 7 to question what Mr. Gdanski says and disprove it by 8 another witness, that is okay, but Mr. Grant is in 9 charge of all of those things, but not Mr. Gdanski. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 i 23 24 25 l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2 45

4537 () 1 MR. BRANDENBURG But Mr. Grant did not claim 2 that the radiological emergency plan could not be 3 implemented in Rockland County in his testimony. This 4 witness did. He is a member of the legisla ture, and if 5 he has no familiarity with these matters we can rapidly 6 establish that and move on to something else. 7 JUDGE CARTER: He said he gave his opinion 8 based on the reports, and he read th e re ports. He had 9 the reports. They said we 'd have the people who made to the reports coming in. You can question them as to all 11 of the things they said and did. And he testified his 12 conclusion was based on all that was told him by the 13 McGuires and Kralik and others. 14 I don't see how you can prove your point, 15 which I don't want to prevent you from proving. But 16 this witness does not appear to be the exchequer of the 17 treasury or the person in charge of money records. 18 MR. BRANDENBURG4 He has formed opinions on 19 the adequacy of emergency plans, and I was merely 20 seeking to establish what his knowledge was about the 21 extent of effort that has been devoted thus far by 22 Rockland County. 23 JUDGE CARTER: I thought he had testified to () 24 th a t. 25 MR. THORSEN: Not only that, Your Honor. We ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

i 4538 {~/) 1 have had three, not department heads, but at least 2 second-in-command's here who would have had that 3 knowledge. And th e Licensees did not ask f or that O 4 knowledge of the people who would have had the most 5 specific knowledge. It seems ludicrous to ask it of a 6 part-time legislator. 3 7 NR. BRANDENBURG Mr. Thorsen, I think that 8 information was covered. Mr. James McGuire was asked 9 extensively about members of his department staff that 10 had devoted substantial amounts of their activities and 11 their time to radiological emergency planning. I 12 believe the same was asked of another witness. 13 BY MR. BRANDENBURG (Resuming) C \\ 14 0 Mr. Gdanski, do you know approximately what 15 number of Rockland County employees have devoted a 16 substantial portion of their time to radiological 17 eme rgency preparedness in the past year? 18 MR. THORSEN Your Honor, I would object to i 19 this question on the g round s -- 20 JUDGE CARTER: Frankly, I don 't know how he 21 would know that. I don 't know how any one person would 22 know that. 23 MR. BR AN DENBURG4 He chaired a subcommittee, I (]) 24 Mr. Chairman, that solicited information from all of the l 25 Rockland County departments tha t would be called upon in l () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4539 (} 1 connection with radiological emergency preparedness. 2 The extent and thoroughness of his inquiry I think is 3 very relevant to that committee's recommendations which O 4 was ultimately acted on by the Rockland County 5 legislature to withd raw from the plan. 6 JUDGE CARTERS He would have to know what 7 every deputy sheriff and what every school administrator 8 did. It's an endless task. 9 Do you know the answer to the question? 10 WITNESS GDANSKI: I don't. 11 MR. BRANDENBURG4 My question does not seek 12 precision, Mr. Chairman, just an approximation. 13 JUDGE CARTER: Did anyone ever make a study of 14 the amount of time devoted to the plan by employees of 15 the county? 16 WITNESS GDANSKIs I don't know the answer to 17 that. I believe the figures could be compiled. I don't 18 know if a study in fact was made. 19 MR. THORSEN Judge, let me just clarify one 20 thing. Mr. Brandenburg was referring to another I 21 resolution which we have introduced. Mr. Gdanski was 22 not the sponsor of that, and that one did compile 23 sta tistics in connection with the Ma rch 3 d rill. That () 24 was the $30,000. 25 MR. BRANDENBURG Maybe Mr. Thorsen can ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l

4500 (} 1 enlighten us. Are there other instances in which 2 Rockland County has attempted to estimate or quantif y in 3 some fashion the extent of activity in the area of O 4 radiological emergency preparedness that has been 5 devoted by Rockland County employees? 6 MR. THORSEN To the best of my knowledge, the 7 health department is probably the only depa rtment which 8 would keep records. 9 (Pause.) 10 BY MR. BRANDENBURGs (Resuming) 11 0 Mr. Gdanski, let's turn briefly, if we may, to 12 page 1 of Exhibit A of your testimony, which is the 13 Resolution 320 of the Rockland County legislature, dated 14 May 18, '82. 15 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Uh-huh. 16 0 In the third paragraph of that resolution, you 17 state -- the resolution states -- and incidentally, this 18 was, I believe you told us on Monday, prepared by the l 19 county attorney's office, but I think your words were, 20 with substantial input from you? 21 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Among o thers, yes. 22 0 In the third whereas paragraph here, the 23 resolution states: "There have been numerous violations () 24 of the safety requirements of the Nuclear Regulatory l 25 Commission at Indian Point power facilities." And the () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 40C VIRGINTA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4541 l {} 1 whereas continues and we'll get to that in a moment. 2 But taking just those words, Mr. Gdanski, 3 would you tell us what numerous violations of safety O 4 requirements at the Indian Point power facilities you 5 had in mind there? 6 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I did not submit the 7 wording for that particular paragraph, although I am 8 mindful of the reference to the findings of the Public 9 Service Commission in connection with the accident that 10 occurred in the cooling system. And there have been 11 numerous instances of worker safety hazards reported 12 through the media and the press which I'm aware of. 13 0 Is it your understanding that the Public ( 14 Service Commission decision to which you refer made 15 conclusions about violations of NRC safety 16 requirements? 17 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I believe they were 18 assessed a penalty of $100,000, if I am not mistaken. 19 To me that inferred there were violations. 20 0 So it is your understanding that the New York 21 Stete Public Service Commission levied a penalty or 22 som e thing upon the Indian Point Licensee for a violation 23 of NRC regulations? () 24 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I did not say NRC 25 regulations. I said regulations. O a l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4542 () 1 Q I see. 2 MR. THORSEN Your Honor -- 3 BY MR. BRANDENBURG (Resuming) 4 Q The whereas clause here sa ys " numerous 5 violations," Mr. Gdanski. 6 MR. THORSENs Your Honor, as Mr. Gdanski 7 indicated, this resolution was prepared by the county 8 attorney. M r. Gdanski is one of 20 legislators. This 9 is an official document, a promulgation of those 20 10 individuals. 11 To ask Mr. Gdanski his understanding of each 12 and every whereas paragraph and each and every 13 interpretation and the background behind each paragraph 14 is inappropriate for this witness in this hearing. 15 JUDGE CARTER 4 Maybe Mr. B ra ndenb urg is going 16 to bring in all 20 legislators and inquire of each and 17 every legislator what their understanding is. 18 MR. BRANDENBURG: Well, Rockland County has 19 not seen fit to propose all of those, Mr. Chairman. 20 Nevertheless, this witness has concluded and has stated 21 in his filed testimony here that in his belief the 22 health, safety and welfare of Rockland Coun ty residents 23 is in some fashion unprotected by virtue of the () 24 operation at Indian Point units, and I think we're 25 entitled to know what his knowledge is and the basis for O 4 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4543 1 his opinions on those subjects. 2 WITNESS GDANSKI4 I believe there were 3 numerous violations. I don 't have those records or 4 files with me. Given time, I could produce what I 5 consider violations of safety requirements. I can 6 certainly bring them when these hearings are 7 reconvened. 8 JUDGE CARTERS Mr. Brandenburg, do you really 9 think that this Board would adopt the opinion of one of 10 20 legislators on Nuclear Regulatory Commission 11 violations, as opposed to the records of our 12 Commission? I mean, what do you take us for, Mr. 13 Brandenburg? () 14 MR. BRANDENBURG: I think, Mr. Chairman, that 15 this witness ' knowledge on the matters upon which his 16 testimony concludes that the operation of Indian Point 17 poses some hazards to the residents of Rockland County 18 is highly germane to the opinions expressed in his 19 testimony. 20 JUDCE CARTER 4 Mr. Gdanski's testimony is not 21 the resolution of the legislative body. Mr. Gdanski's 22 testimony consists of about th ree pages, and if you 23 would ask him about the three pages I think that would 24 be very helpful. (} 25 The resolution of the legislature is the O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4540 1 resolution of the legislature. It is not his creation. ^ (k 2 it is not Mr. Thorsen 's creation. It is the creation of 3 the legislature. And you did not want the legislative r, ( 4 background for it put in the record. So all we have is 5 the resolution. 6 ER. BRANDENBURG The resolution, Mr. 7 Chairman, appears as Exhibit A to this witness' 8 testimony and presently resides within the record of 9 this proceeding. I point out also, Mr. Chairman, that 10 page 1 of Exhibit A clearly indicates that Mr. Gdanski 11 was a sponsor of this resolution. 12 Now, if he had no knowledge of the matters l ( 13 upon which he was sponsoring before the Rockland County { ) 14 legislatura, I think that is highly germane to his 15 credibillity. 16 WITNESS GDANSKI Mr. Chairman, I object to l 17 the characterization of the response or lack of 1 18 response. The legislature had in public discussion and l 19 taken down in the public record various comments by 20 other legislators as well as myself, as well as the 21 input from the public that night, as well as the public 22 hearings which preceded the resolution. 23 I cannot be expected to recall each and every ^f ) 24 incident, but I will if requested provide the 25 situations. r' ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. iNC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE S.W, WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 234 2 ~ ~

4545 () 1 MR. THORSENs Counsel of record for the county 2 seconds that objection. 3 BY MR. BRANDENBURGs (Resuming) O 4 0 Mr. Gdanski, the whereas clause that I 5 referred to continues to state that "the operation of 6 the Indian Point power facilities poses substantial 7 threats to the health, saf e ty, and welfare of the 8 citizens of Rockland County" May I ask you what the 9 basis for that statement is? 10 MR. THORSEN: Objection. 11 JUDGE CARTER: You can answer the question. 12 MR. BRANDENBURG: It's the same as stated in 13 the witness' testimony, Mr. Chairman, as you stated so C. 14 on Monday. 15 JUDGE CARTER 4 You may answer. 16 WITNESS GDANSKI One of the facts is our 17 residents have to live in a state of fear engendered by 18 a nuclear power plant providing electricity, from which 19 we receive absolutely no economic benefit. We're no t 20 within the sphere of Con Ed or PASNY, and therefore I 21 don't think it is worth the specific constituents in my 22 community for us to bear, number one, the burden of 23 having to be prepared for an evacuation, for benefits () 24 provided for other communities. Tha t is pa ranount. 25 MR. LEVIN: Your Honor, I move to strike the O i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

Y,V - ) ,t t. 4 ~ 4546 , s e Q 1 witness' ststement insofar as he referred to the \\_) \\

s I

s 2 community living in a state of fear. The stress on'the i 4 3 comacnity has not been determined to be an ig$ue (n this ' '~ 4 proceeding. Indeed, it 's been speci fically reserved by i -'~ l, 5 the Board, and based upon the FRC's interpretation of ,r p. c 6 the L.C. Circuit case on this mattar"I suspect it would / 7 not be in issue here. I i 8 MR. BRANDENBURG4 I simila rly

m_ove to strike, i

+ 9 on the grounds of nonresponsiveness, Mr. Chairman. My c 10 question had nothing.to do with state of[ mind, but ,k ,1 11 whether or not there was in facb a substantial threat to 12 the health, safety and welf are of the citizens of 13 Rockland County posed by the existence of Indian Point. 14 HR. THORSEN: Judge, fear and concern about a at 15 plant don't necessarily translate into stress. I don't [ delieve.Br. Gdanski is trtJ.ng to do something in this 16 17 area that, the Commission has prohibited. I think;that 18 other individuals here have t(s tified, particularly 19 Chief Kralik yesterday, to the fead-that he senses in l 20 the community, the fact that the community has to live - - 1 1 t 21 with this fear.+ 22 We are not introducing here through !fr. a 23 Gdanski a ny a r,ou n t of stress that the community suffers,

, z 24 however.

l 25 MR. BRANDENBURG: I take it Mr. Gdanski has no / ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4547 f (~ } } objection to striking tne testimony based on 3r. Levin's 2 and Mr. Brandenburg's objection. 3 JUDGE CARTER: Could you answer the question 4 again and leave out reference to the fear of the 5 community? 6 MR. THOBSENs Your Honor, I'm sorry. I would 7 object'to that. I think that Mr. Gdanski represents a 8 constituency. If there is fear in the community and it 9 has been expressed to him, he is capable of testifying 10 +o that, and I don't believe it's proper to strike 11 that. 12 MR. LEVIN: Your Honor, that is the very 13 point. The fear or psychological stress existing in the 14 community is the very issue th a t the NRC has recently 15 issued a position paper on and has said that, except 16 with respect to the TMI incident, that it is not an 17 incident that is to be raised in Board proceedings, And 18 so we reassert our motion to strike. 19 JUDGE CARTERa. I cannot-accept your 20 interpretation entirely,'because there may very well be 21 circumstances where, if the proof were made, that it 22 would be complied with. But what it seems to me we have 23 here is the opinion of the legislator that there is a (]) 24 substantial threat to the health, safety and welfare of 25 the citizens of Rockland County, which I have said he ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4548 1 can answer without reference to fears in the community. 2 However, I will deny your objection, Mr. 3 Thorsen, to my question and ask the witness to answer OU 4 it. 5 Other than what you believe to be the fears of 6 the community, whst presents threats to the health, 7 safety and welfare of the citizenry? 8 WITNESS GDANSKIa Well, aside from the safety, 9 specific incidents where we feel the Licensees at the 10 facility have not adhered to existing regulation, 11 whether it's state or f ederal regulations, in terms of 12 notification procedures or accidents -- and I use that 13 in the generic sense, not perhaps within the strict 14 technical terms the NBC has adopted for a definition of 15 an accident, but situations which have occurred with 16 relative frequency in terms of shutdown of the plants 17 because of a change of this tube or a shutdown to remedy 18 this deficiency. 19 The fact that Indian Point exists within a 20 ten-mile zone, from which there has been imposed a 21 requirement upon Rockland County as a municipal entity 22 to prepare evacuation plans, from which we receive no 23 economic benefit or any power of any sort, has raised 24 serious questions about the ability to adhere or follow 25 a proposed evacuation plan should it ever come to that. O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4549 (} 1 And many questions have been raised on our ability to 2 actually follow through on that and what would occur in 3 the event of an actual emergency, together with the 4 response from the public in trying to meet the 5 evacuation requirement. 6 And there have been health questions and 7 safety questions raised as to how many lives would be 8 lost in the course of an evacuation when panic ensues 9 and roads are clogged and drastic measures are taken. 10 That to me has raised a risk analysis question, is it 11 worth the effort to have Indian Point continue to 12 operate, as given to me by my constituents, and not just 13 those of Ramapo, the town I specifically reptesent, but 14 countyvide in Rockland County. 15 BY HR. BRANDENBURG4 (Resuming) 16 0 Mr. Gdanski, a couple of times this morning 17 you have emphasized to us that the County of Rockland 18 receives no economic benefit from the operations of 19 Indian Point. Do I understand your testimony to be that 20 the threat to the health, safety and welfare of Rockland 21 County citizens brought about by the operation of Indian 22 Point would in your judgmen t be lessened if somehow 23 Rockland County were somehow to receive some economic O 24 deaerit2 25 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Not at all. It would just O I 1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, l l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4550 1 make it less onerous. ) 2 0 Well, in wha t f ashion would the threat to the 3 health, safety and welfare of the citizens become O 4 lessened ? I'm not sure. 5 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Well, the utilities 6 frequently, in terms of public relations campaigns, have 7 u rg ed that the cost savings effected by using the 8 nuclear power at Indian Point should outweigh those 9 questions of safety and concern, and I don't think that 10 particular argument bears any relevance to the Rockland 11 County residents' plan. I don't think it should bear 12 any relevance to the safety, where safety is paramount 13 for the residents of Westchester or New York City, () 14 either. But the argument is that much less striking for 15 Rockland County residents. 16 0 Is it your belief, Mr. Gdanski, that at any 17 time there has been an imminent threat of release of 18 radiation from the Indian Point plants that would create 19 a health, safety or a welf are hazard for the citizens of 20 Rockland County? 21 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Think the potential 22 exists. 23 0 Has it in your judgment ever existed? (]) 24 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) The potential, yes. Has it l 25 reached that stage yet? I don't believe it has. There l l /'N \\) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l

4551 () 1 has been an imminent release, but again I believe the 2 potential is there. And Con Edison and public 3 pronouncements from their executives say that today the 4 plant would not be licensed on that site. 5 0 You anticipate my next question, Mr. Gdanski. 6 let's move on to two whereas clauses lower in the 7 resolution and ask you that. You state, I think, both 8 in your prefiled testimony and also in this resolution 9 which you sponsored before the Rockland County 10 legislature, that Indian Point could not be sited where 11 it is today if we were to start commencement or 12 construction of a new plant. 13 Is'it your understanding, specifically wi th 14 reference to this whereas clause -- let me read it for 15 you so the record is clear: "Whereas, it has been 16 publicly ~ acknowledged by the Nuclear Regula tory 17 Commission members that present safety standards would 3 18 prohibit the erection of nuclea r generating facilities 19 at or near the existing location of the Indian Point 20 power plants." i 21 My question to you is, is it your l 22 understanding that Nuclear Regulatory Commission 23 regulations would preclude the construction of a nuclear () 24 reactor plant at Indian Point today? 25 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I did not word this ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4552 1 particular paragraph. It is my understanding that Con 2 Edison chief executives have publicly stated they would 3 not use that site today~ because of the dense population O 4 within a 50-mile area surrounding it. l 5 0 What is the basis for that statement? 6 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I believe that I read tha t 7 in newspapers, counsel, as well as on the media, radio 8 and TV. 9 Q Specifically to the matter referenced here, 10 and that is the Nuclear Regulatory Commission siting 11 requirements? 12 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I do not know if that is a 13 fact of my own personal kno wledge. I did not draft that 14 particular paragraph. 15 0 Nonetheless, you felt comfortable enough with 16 it to sponsor it before the Rockland County 17 legislature? 18 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) The general consennus, the 19 thrust of the general effect of that paragraph, I 20 certainly could live with that, whether it was the 21 position of the utilities themselves or the regulatory 22 bodies. 23 JUDGE CARTERa Mr. Brandenburg, couldn't we O 24 ve so e ti=e it rou ere to

x the itae=

a * "e 25 specifically knows about any of these items of his own O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4553 1 knowledge, what he read? And then you can ask him about {} 2 that. But to ask him to answer questions about what a 3 group of people wrote, I don't think that gets us very O 4 far. 5 MR. BRANDENBURG Why, Mr. Chairman, I'm 6 through with this resolution, so I don't think we'll 7 have to deal with that. 8 (Pause.) 9 BY MR. BRANDENBURG (Resuming) 10 0 Excuse me. Mr. Gdanski, you state on page 1 11 of your testimony that you do not believe any 12 radiological preparedness plan adequately provides for 13 the health, safety and welfare of the citizens of ( 14 Rockland County; is that correct? 15 MR. THORSEN: Could you point to the line, 16 please? 17 WITNESS GDANSKI I think it is on page 3. 18 And it is an open question. I say the current plan does i 19 not. But at the bottom of page 3 I say, "It remains to 20 be seen whether any plan can adequately provide for the 21 health, safety and welfare of the citizens of Rockland 22 County." 23 BY MR. BRANDENBURGa (Resuming) () 24 0 I had in mind, actually, page 1 of your 25 additional testimony, Mr. Gdanski, that was submitted to O I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, ~ 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4554 1 us on the 19th of July, four days ago, five lines up 2 from the bottom. 3 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I don't have a copy. May I Okl 4 get a copy, please? 5 (Pause.) 6 WITNESS GDANSKI I have a copy now. 7 0 Approximately five lines up from the bottom of 8 the page, Mr. Gdanski: "As I stated earlier in my 9 testimony, the legislature of Rockland County does not 10 believe that any plan can adequately provide for the 11 health, safety and welfare of the citizens of Rockland 12 County 13 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Yes. () 14 0 Is that your view as well? 15 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I would change the wording 16 of that slightly to conform with the earlier submitted 17 testimony, "it remains to be seen whether any plan." 18 Q All righ t. Mr. Gdanski, are there any other 19 situations which you believe would leave the health, 20 safety and welfare of Rockland County citizens l 21 unprotected? l 22 MR. THORSENs Objection. 23 JUDGE CARTER Sustained. 24 BY MR. BRANDENBURG: (Resuming) 25 Q I believe you testified on "onday it was your O ALDERSON REPORTING COVPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4555 (]) 1 duty to protect th e health, safety and welfare of the 2 public in Rockland County; is that correct? 3 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Yes. fsU 4 0 Now, while the plant is in operation, as a 5 legislator what are you currently doing to protect the 6 health, safety and welfare of Rockland County citizens 7 from the hazards of Indian Point as you perceive them? 8 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I am appea ring at this 9 proceeding. 10 0 And what else? 11 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I am urging that our 12 chairman appoint as soon as possible a new chairman to 13 the subcommittee to review current planning by our O k/ 14 office of emergency services in connection with the new 15 plan to be adopted by Rockland County. 16 0-And you made these urgings to whom? 17 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Our chairman's office. 18 Q And have you received any response? 19 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I know that recommendations 20 have been submitted. I have not received a response 21 yet. 22 0 How much time has passed since Rockland County 23 concluded it should withdraw from the radiological () 24 emergency preparedness plan? 25 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I'm sorry, I d id n ' t hear O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024(202) 554 2345 j )

4556 1 the question. {} 2 Q Row much t im e h as elapsed since R ockland 3 County, at your urgings, in Resolution 320 decided to O 4 withdraw from the emergency plan? 5 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Until today's date. 6 Whatever the date is of the resolution. 7 0 Then over two months ago, is that right? 8 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) It may be, but business has l 9 been done in that time -- it is just that no committee to has been formed to review the results of anything that 11 has been done. 12 MR. BRANDENBURG: I have no further questions 13 of this witness, M r. Chairman. ( 14 JUDGE CARTER: Thank you. 15 Mr. Thorsen? 16 MR. THORSEN: Thank you, Judge. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. THORSEN: 1 19 Q Mr. Gdanski, would you please turn to 20 attachment B of your testinony, on page 53. 21 MR. CZAJA: This was stricken, Judge. 22 MR. THORSEN: I don't believe the entire 23 exhibit was stricken. (]) 24 JUDGE PARIS: Are we talking about -- 25 MR. THORSEN: A ttachment B. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4557 1 JUDGE CARTER: We struck the testimony, unless (} 2 you 've been able to find some authority for that. We 3 haven't been able to find any case. O 4 JUDGE PARIS: It is in as a limited appearance 5 statement, not evidentiary. 6 BY MR. THORSEN: (Resuming) 7 Q If we can refer to what was formerly your 8 Exhibit B at page 53, I would like to read you a portion 9 of that statement. At the middle of the page -- 10 JUDGE CARTER: M r. Thorsen, are you -- 11 MR. THORSEN: I'm laying a foundation. 12 JUDGE CARTER: Are you going to attempt to put 13 in a statement of another person on this subject? ) 14 MR. THORSEN I am attempting to refresh Mr. 15 Gdanski's recollection. 16 JUDGE CARTER: Why don't you ask him first if 17 he remembers what happened and then go on from there? 18 MR. THORSEN All ri gh t. 19 BY MR. THORSEN: (Resuming) 20 0 Mr. Gdanski, have you presided at the public 21 meetings at which representatives of the Licensees have 22 been present? 23 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Yes. () 24 Q Did you preside over such a meeting on May 13, 25 19827 O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINTA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4558 (} 1 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Yes. 2 Q Was that a meeting of the committee to review 3 the Indian Point response plan? O 4 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Yes. 5 Q And did a representative of the utilities 6 appear at that meeting? 7 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Yes. 8 0 What was the represen tative's name? 9 A (VITNESS GDANSKI) Mr. Duffy from PASNY. 10 0 And at that time did Mr. Duff y make the 11 following statement: "The point I was trying to make, 12 and I think it was fairly obvious, is that there are any 1 13 number of calamities, manmade and natural, that occur in ( 14 this county. And it is really the responsibility of the 15 county -- and I sm a resident of Rockland County. I 16 happen to live in Blauvelt in Orangetown." [ 17 Skipping a little bita "Anyway, the, l 18 responsibility of the county for the development of an 19 emergency preparedness plan, not just for the very 20 remote possibility of a radiological release at Indian l 21 Point, but the more likely prospect of even more lethal 22 possibilities, specifically the kind that I mentioned, 23 that could occur in exactly the same area where the () 24 ten-mile Zone is located, with exactly the same problems 25 for you with respect to the moving of people and ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4559 r~ 1 evacuation. U) 2 "The point I 'm trying to make is that this 3 county should have been addressing this problem a long, U,s 4 long time ago. What has happened in the meantime is 5 that the utility companies have developed a plan 6 relating to radiological responses that is entirely and 7 completely ad op ta ble to these other calamity 8 situations. 9 "I am suggesting to you that at the expense of 10 about $7 million that the county has not spent, nor has 3 11 Westchester, Orange or Putnam, that the utility 12 companies have developed a plan, with admitted flaws. 13 The purpose of the drill, by the way, was primarily to 14 identify, detect and correct those flaws. And the 15 criticism you will give tonight will go a long way to 16 enabling us to do that. 17 "But the point I am trying to make is that you 18 don't have an emergency plan in place for these other 19 calamities, either. You have been offered a plan to 20 address a particular eventuality that will cover in most ( 21 cases every other kind of eventuality you can imagine 22 happening in this county." 23 MR. CZAJA: Judge, I would like to -- (]) 24 MR. THORSEN: I'm finished. 25 MR. CZAJA: Then I'll object. Obviously it O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE.. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4560 -) 1 was just an attempt to circumvent the Board's ruling (/ 2 striking Exhibit B. 3 MR. SOHINKIs I'll object to it on the grounds O 4 that it 's beyond the scope of cross. Nobody asked any 5 questions about this exhibit. 6 JUDGE CARTER: It seems to me that the issue, 7 the general issue, was raised on cross, and interpreting 8 the statement of Mr. Duffy of the Power Authority as a 9 statement against interest, if it is not hearsay -- the 10 others were excluded as being hearsay -- the statement 11 can come in. 12 The witness from the Power Authority admitted 13 there were flaws and said a number of other things, none () 14 of which I think anyone here disagrees with. 15 MR. LEVIN: Your Honor, I don't know that Mr. 16 Duffy -- we don 't know much about this statement or the 17 circumstances. I don 't know that Mr. Duffy had the 18 authority to make anything that could be construed as an 19 admission on the part of the Power Authority. 20 JUDGE CARTER: I would assume that if he 21 appears for the Power Authority at a hearing of the 22 legislature that he certainly has some authority to 23 speak for the Authority, since he spoke for the () 24 Authority in a proceeding before the legislature. 25 MR. LEVIN: We don't know tha t, of course, O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, # 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4561 () I 1 Your Fonor. What you just stated, we don 't know that to 2 be the case. 3 JUDGE CARTER: To me, it comes under the 4 heading of apparent. 5 Do you have anything f urther, Mr. Thorsen? 6 MR. THORSEN Yes, Your Honor. 7 BY MR. THORSEN: (Resuming) 8 Q Have other representa tives of the Licensees 9 made similar statements, at least in substance? 10 MR. CZAJA4 Objection. There has been no -- 11 JUDGE CARTER: Sustained. 12 BY MR. THORSEN: (Resuming) 13 Q Mr. Gdanski, you represent a constituency. 14 You are an elected official? 15 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Yes. 16 0 Approximately how many people do you 17 represent? 18 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Approximately 8,000 from l l 19 the town of Ramspo and a quarter of a million from the l l 20 County of Orange. 21 0 Have you had discussions with people, your 22 constituents, who have expressed views on Indian Point l 23 and on the radiological emergency response plan? () l 24 MR. CZAJA: Objection. l 25 JUDGE CARTER: Sustained. Mr. Thorsen, we'll l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4562 1 take notice of the fact that most people in and around ( ), 2 the plant have made statements about it, pro and con. 3 MR. THORSEN: You see, Your Honor, my problem . O 4 is thisa There has been a tone in the cross-examination 5 by the Licensees to the effect that they have done 6 Rockland County a favor by creating a risk, Indian 7 Point, which has required them on turn to promulgate a 8 plan which we can now use for all sorts of emergencies. 9 JUDGE CARTER: I didn 't get that impression. 10 MR. THORSEN Well, Judge, there would be no 11 other purpose for all of their examination regarding 12 other hazards in the county other than radiological. 13 JUDGE CARTER: I don't want to comment. They l 14 had a right to cross-examine. They did cross-examine. 15 The record will speak for itself. 16 BY MR. THORSEN: (Resuming) 17 Q Mr. Gdanski, do you believe the constituency 18 which you represent, if offered a choice, would choose 19 no Indian Point and no plan over the risks of Indian l I 20 Point and a plan which could be applied to other types 21 of disasters? 22 MR. CZAJA: Objection. I 23 JUDGE CARTER: Sustained. () 24 MR. THORSEN: I have no other questions. 25 MR. BRANDENBURG: Mr. Chairman, in my haste to O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4563 (]) 1 complete the cross-examination of this witness at the 2 Board's request, I see that I have overlooked one 3 question, which relates to a specific conversation that 4 took place between this witness and Mr. James McGuire, 5 as to which both of these people have testified. And I 6 thought one or two questions clarifying that might be of 7 value,. 8 JUDGE CARTER: All right, go ahead. 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION -- RESUMED 10 BY MR. BRANDENBURG 11 Q Mr. Gdanski, on Monday you commented in the 12 course of your testimony that the consequences of a 13 serious accident at Indian Point would pale by 14 comparison with other types of emergencies, such as 15 chemical spill's, forest fires, and the like. Do you 16 recall that? 17 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I think my comments were 18 directed to the accident as well as the appropriate 19 response to the accident. 20 0 Yes, and we discussed tha t a t some length. 21 And you stated at page 3499 of your testimony that the 22 information on this subject was provided by Mr. James 23 McGuire of the Rockland County health department. Do () 24 you recall that? 25 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I believe as well as other O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA ave., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4564 (]) 1 individuals. 2 0 We asked M r. McGuire about it the following 3 day, and I would like to show you his recollection of 4 that conversation and ask you one or two short questions 5 about that. 6 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Could you also show me my 7 verbatim transcript, please? 8 (Witness reviewing document.) 9 A (VITNESS GDANSKI) Okay. 10 0 And it continues on the next page. 11 MR. THORSENs Is this Mr. McGuire's 12 testimony? 13 MR. BRANDENBURGs No. I'm about to bring that 14 over. 15 (Pause.) 16 HR. BRANDENBURG You might also want to refer 17 to page 3855, where the answer concludes. 18 (Pause.) l 19 MR. THORSEN: There was another statement by 20 Mr. Mcguire in which I believe he explained why he was 21 not able to scale up or scale down their -- being the 22 Intervenors' statements -- "due to my lack of ability to 23 obtain the technical information." (]) 24 It is my recollection that at some point in 25 the transcript Mr. McGuire said -- a nd I 'm just l t ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4565 () 1 referring this to you, so perhaps you could agree and 2 save time. He said the Licensees had never at any time 3 provided him with the information to dispute the 4 Intervenors' statements to Mr. Gdanski. 5 MR. BRANDENBURGa I don't think my questioning 6 will depend on that, Mr. Thorsen. 7 MR. THORSENs Thank you. 8 BY MR. BRANDENBURG: (Resuming) 9 0 My question is, Mr. Gdanski, whether Mr. 10 McGuire is correct that you approached him regarding 11 inf orma tion on the consequences of a serious accident at 12 Indian Point after you had had a discussion on that 13 subject with the Intervenors in this proceeding? I am 14 referring now to a few lines beginning on the top of 15 page 3855 of Mr. McGuire's testimony. 16 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Is your question whether I 17 approached him? 3 18 0 Well, let's take it in chronological order. 19 Prior to the discussion that you had with Mr. McGuire on 20 the subject of the consequences of a serious accident at l 21 Indian Point, did you indeed have discussions on that ( 22 subject with the Intervenors in this proceeding, such as 23 Mr. McGuire refers to in his answers here? () 24 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Did I personally have 25 discussions with the Intervenors? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4566 (]) 1 Q Tes. 2 JUDGE CARTER: Are you including Mr. Thorsen 3 or are you referring to one of the technical -- O 4 MR. BRANDENBURG. That is what I'm really 5 trying to find out, Mr. Chairman. Mr. McGuire states 6 "The problem that I had with Mr. Gdanski was that I was 7 unable to supply him with the technical inf orma tion 8 which would contradict all of the technical information 9 being supplied to him by the Intervenors' technical 10 experts 11 And I'm merely quoting about what the history 12 of that was. 13 WITNESS GDANSKIs Well', perhaps I can 14 clarify. The concern is, our concern, meaning the 15 legislators' concern on the possibility of, for example, 16 other types of accidents occurring and the scope of what 17 would be required to respond to th em. One illustration 18 frequently given by Mr. Duffy of PASNY was, what about a 19 chemical oil spill or a train derailment. 20 And I said that avenue was being pursued by 21 other legislators before the board of health with other 22 safety measures, and it was really outside the scope of 23 what we were charged to review. () 24 MR. CZAJA: I move to strike as not 25 responsive. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4567 () 1 MR. BRANDENBURG4 I too join in that request. 2 JUDGE CARTER: Denied. 3 BY MR. BRANDENBURGa (Resuming) -) a 4 0 Let me try once more. Mr. Gdanski, what 5 technical information being supplied to you by the 6 technical -- the Intervenors' technical experts, is Mr. 7 McGuire ref erring to here? The top of page 3855. 8 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) Well, I don 't know. The 9 statement says, by Mr. McGuire, "I was unable to supply 10 him with the technical info rma tion." I don't know what 11 technical information he's referring to. 12 0 No, th e technical inf orma tion I'm referring to 13 is the technical information that is talked about in the D' s-14 naxt line, which is technical information being supplied l 15 to "him," that is you, by Intervenors' technical 16 experts. My question is, what information are we l 17 talking about? 18 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) You would have to ask Mr. l 19 McGuire. 20 0 Have you been supplied any technical l 21 information by Intervenors' technical experts? 22 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) With specific regard to I 23 what specific issue? () 24 0 With respect to the consequences of a serious 25 accident at Indian Point, Mr. Gdanski. What else? C:) l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4568 1 A (WITNESF GDANSKI) I have received reams of {} 2 material, factual, technical and opinion, f rom members 3 of the public who sent it to me through the mail or who O 4 leave it at my box at the legislature, from participants 5 in this hea ring, from people who reside in Rockland 6 County who are interested in the issue, who either work 7 for one or two of the Licensees or who are opposed to 8 Indian Point. 9 I have received reams of technical 10 inf o rma tion, as we generally do on any issue before the 11 legislature. 12 0 And my specific question, Mr. Gdanski, one 13 more time, is what technical informa tion ha s been ( 14 supplied to you by Intervenors' technical experts, in 15 the reams that you just referred to? 16 A (WITNESS GDANSKI) I don't know. I would have 17 to go back and extract and go through the files and say, 18 like, this document, this document, et cetera. 19 0 All right. Who initiated 20 JUDGE CARTER 4 Mr. Brandenburg, I really don't 21 understand what you're doing here. Is it your intention 22 to discredit the witness because he wen t to the person 23 in charge of the subject matter to get his opinion 24 concerning technical matters that were supplied by some () 25 other person? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) $$4 2345

4569 () 1 It seems to me that that is his duty. I don't 2 know where you're going. If you then get into the 3 question of what information he's received, then you 4 have to go into an inquiry of all of the information he 5 received. This is an endless inquiry. Where will it 6 take us? 7 MR. BRANDENBURGs Mr. Chairman, the 8 cornerstone of this witness' testimony is his belief the 9 health, safety and welfare of the citizens of Rockland 10 County is unprotected because of hazards from the Indian 11 Point plant. Now, I 'm really asking him what 12 information he has sought out to form the basis of that 13 conclusion, that caused him a year and a half ago to O (/ 14 move for the shutdown of Indian Point, that caused him 15 to seek out the chairmanship of a committee to evaluate i 16 whether Rockland County should participate in emergency 17 planning, and that led to the ultimate recommendation of 18 that committee to the legislature that Rockland County 19 refuse to participate in the Indian Point emergency 20 plan. 21 JUDGE PARIS In any case, Mr. Brandenburg, he l 22 has testified that he has reams of paper and he doesn't l 23 know what kind of technical information is in it now. l () 24 JUDGE CARTER: I frankly am not interested in 25 his motive. It wouldn't sway me one way or the other, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4570 () I whether it was for political purposes or technical 2 purposes or whether he did it f or a living. People do 3 this for s living as well, but I don't hold that against O 4 them. 5 I an interested in whether he has any 6 information on the issues in this case. What his 7 motives were when he ran for office or what prompts 8 somebody to become a school teacher doesn't help us in 9 answering the questions in this case. 10 WITNESS GDANSKI Public service, Your Honor. 11 HR. BRANDENBURG I have nothing further but l 12 the conversation between Mr. Gdanski and Mr. EcGuire, 13 which was the only other ' point that I had, Mr. 14 Chairman. 15 JUDGE CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Gdanski. 16 MR. THORSEN4 Judge, I do notice tha t 17 Assemblyman Morahan is in the audience. Pe rha ps we 18 could take his statement and then break. Rockland 19 County calls Assemblyman Thomas Morahan. 20 JUDGE CARTER: Welcome, sir. Would you state 21 your name and address, please. 22 23 24 25 O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRG.NIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 i

i 4571' () 1 LIMITED APPEARANCE STATEMENT OF 2 THOMAS P. MORAHAN, NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLYMAN 3 FOR THE 96TH ASSEMBLY DISTRICT 4 MR. MORAHAN Thomas P. Morahan, member of the 5 New York State Assembly. I represent at this present s 6 time Clarkstown, Haverstraw, the Town of Stony Point, 7 the Town of Tuxedo, and the Town of Monroe in Orange 8 County, and part of Ramapo. It's the 96th Assembly 9 District, but for the record, if you look back at it 10 after next January, it'll be the 92nd Assembly District 11 and it will consist of Haverstra w, Clarkstown, and part 12 of Ramapo. 13 I am here this morning, gentlemen -- and I O-14 appreciate the opportunity to address you -- not to 1 15 testify as any witness as to the viability of the plant 16 at Indian Point or dispute or to expand upon any l 17 technical da ta that may be supplied before. I am here i 18 merely to express the concerns that have been related to 19 my office, to myself, and to demonstrate to you or to 20 convey to you some of the serious reservations and deep l 21 concerns people in Rockland and Orange County have 22 regarding Indian Point. 1 i l 23 There is a fear in our two counties, a fear () 24 generated by publicity, by technical testimony that 25 indicates that this plant was built on a fault, the O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

? i 1 4572 1 Ramapo Fault; that this plant's experience with (} 2 shutdowns, which have become rather routine as I 3 understand it, and the experience at Three Mile Island, () 4 and the inability for the counties in the ten-mile area 5 to come to grips with a viablo, workable evacuation 6 plan. 7 And as such, they are very concerned about 8 Indian Point. And I believe if we did a legitimate poll 9 in this county I don't think you would have ten percent 10 of the respondents or a reflection of ten percent of the 11 people in this area who for one minute would allow this 12 plant to remain open. 13 The plant as we see it is antequated. It is 14 due for early retirement, as we see it. We feel that 15 the plant has served its purpose. To continue its 16 operation not only leaves with us th e ve ry real 17 possibility -- however remote it may be I can't testify s 18 to here -- of a very serious accident. But there is an 19 ongoing daily problem of what that stress and that fear i 20 is doing to the people in the area. 21 And when we see, as a state legislature, the 22 county now refusing to participate in the five-county 23 plan or four-county plan, in essence refusing many state l () 24 aid dolla rs, then we in Albany also have very great 25 concerns about what an evacuation plan mean s. It is our O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., W ASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) S54 2345

i l 4573 1 1 feeling that an evacuation plan to date has not been (} 2 either demonstrated or laid out that anyone would have 3 any faith in. C-4 It is our feeling and the feeling of the 5 people that I represent that there is no plan you can 6 devise that. vould adequa tely provide f or a very, very 7 serious problem at Indian Point. Yes, there may be a 8 plan that could overcome some minor problem, but the >3 plans -- or the evacuation plan as I understand it is 10 designed -- or should be designed for a very serious 11 accident. 12 "a don't have the arterial roads, we don't systems in place. And I think even if we 13 have the _eu l () 14 did, it would be really maybe a placebo. And I think i 15 that is the concern of many elected officials, that by 16 saying to the people, we have a plan in place and it is 17 workable, or it is 90 percent workable or 95 percent 18 workable, it would act no different than a placebo in 19 having people lulled to feel that if something should 20 happen at Indian Point they indeed would be safe. l 21 The one experience -- I was in Albany at the 22 time they had the one experience near Albany, and I can 23 only testify to what legislators whom'I know and I am 24 familiar with here in Rockland County, and people and (]) 25 press descriptions, that it was totally a disaster. l l l () l ALCERSoM REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l 400 %!RGINlA AVE,, S W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l

_ = _ _ 4674 () 1; Really, it just didn.'t do what it should have done. 2 Now, that is not to say that any plan is 3 supposed to work up front 100 percent of the time 4 without flaw. I don't believe we even expected that the 5 plan was going to be perfect. But_.I think people 6 e xp ec ted it to be somewhat closer to some practical plan .i 7 than it was. 8 In summary, not to tak,e much of your valuable 9 time up, I will just repeat that I'm not an expert as to 10 the technical difficulties or the technical aspects of 11 the plant, but I'm trying to address you as to what this i 12 plant's presence and the inherent a,nd surrounding 13 publicity to it has done to my cosmunity. It is not ('~) 14 polarizing the community; the community is all at one 15 pole. They want this plant shut down. I have to convey 16 that to you. r7 I have to express that that would be my wish 18 also, because we feel that the plant has served its 19 time. It is past it. I know technically it didn't pass 20 its retirement age, but we push for an early 21 retirement. The plant has too many shutdowns for us to 22 feel comfortable. 23 And with that I will close, urging you in your () 24 findings to find that this plant should be closed. l l 25 Thank you very much. i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

_= =._ - _ - -. --_ -. . _ _ - _ _ = i \\ 4575 J O i acoct c^arta-rn nx rou, ir, for t xin2 rour 2 time. 3 MB. MORAHANs If you have no questions, thank i 4 you. I 5 JUDGE CARTERa We will now take a recess until 6 11:15. 1 t 7 (Whereupon, at 11402 a.m., the hearing was i i I 3-recessed, to reconvene at 11:15 a.m. the same day.) 9 i 10 i l 11 12 13 O l 14 I 15 16 4 17 I 18 19 20 21 22 i j 23 O 24 25 lO 1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, { 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 i

4576 1 HR. THORSENa Would you please state for the 2 record your full name, business address and occupation? 3 WITNESS WEINs My name is Ruth Wein. I am the O 4 Director of the Rockland County Association for the 5 Visually Impaired, with offices in,the Rockland County 6 Health Center in Pomona. 7 Whereupon, 8 . RUTH WEIN, 9 called as a witness by Counsel for Intervenor County of 10 Rockland, having been duly affirmed by the Chairman, was 11 examined and testified as follows: 12 DIRECT EIAHINATION 13 BY MR. THORSENs O V 14 Q Do you have before you your direct testimony 15 consisting of two pages? 16 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, I do. 17 Q And did you prepare this direct testimony? 18 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, I did. 19 Q Do you have any corrections or additions which 20 you would like to make to your testimony to assure that 21 it is complete and up to date at this time? 22 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, I do. 23 On the second page, in the next to the last 24 line, I am sorry, there was a typographic error, macular 25 degeneration has been repeated. It should have been O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

l 4577 1 ) diabetic retinopathy. 2 MR. CZAJAs Could you repeat that? 3 WITNESS WEIN: Yes. On the next to the last O 4 line on page 2, macular degeneration, a type of eye l l 5 impairment, was repeated, and it should have stated 8 diabetic retinopathy. Retinopa thy is 7 r-e-t-i-n-o-p-a-t-h-y. l 8 Another comment, on about the fif th line f rom 9 the bottom of page 1, at the time I prepared this 10 testimony, I understood that about 125 people had 11 rat

ned cards indicating needing special h elp.

My 12 understanding is that about 200 such cards have been 13 returned, and one comment. My testimony only concerned l () 14 people who lived in Haverstraw and the Stoney Point 15 area. I deliberately avoided referring to the people we l 18 know in Clarkstown and Pomona because I had no way of 17 knowing which part of those towns are within or without 18 the 10-mile zone. 19 JUDGE PARIS: So your testimony relates only 20 to persons living in Haverstraw and where else? 21 WITNESS WEIN: Actually'it is listed as 22 Haverstraw, Stoney Point, some parts of Pomona, West 23 Haverstraw, Garnerville and Tompkins Cove. () 24 JUDGE PARIS: And you are reading? 25 WITNESS WEIN: Yes. And what applies to them t O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4578 1 would apply to anyone else~in the 10-mile zone. 2 BY MR. THORSENs (Resuming) 3 0 With those corrections and additions, is the O 4 testimony submitted to the Board today true and correct 5 to the best of your knowledge and belief? 6 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, it is. 7 NR. THORSENs I would now move for the 8 admission of the direct testimony of Ruth Wein and ask 9 that it be bound into the record as if read. to JUDGE CARTER: Any objection? 11 I hear none. It will be so bound into the 12 record. 13 (The prepared testimony of Ruth Wein followst) O u 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 O 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

I ( & 1SF.L a l z 3 f S2-l TESTIMONY FROM ROCKLAND COUNTY ASSOCIATION FOR THE VISUALLY IMPAIRED, INC. i l Q lStateyour name, title and interest in the Rockland County Emergency Evacuation l Plan. A I am Ruth Wein, Director of the Rockland County Association for the Visually Impaired, a private not-for-profit agency for the blind of Rockland County. Our offices are located in the Rockland County Health Center, in Pomona. The purpose of our independent agency is to meet the needs of blind residents of I our county and to help them retain or regain skills of daily living so that they , can remain independent members of the community. Itisironicthatthoseblind! l people who have acquired the skills for compensatory use of other senses are threatened and vulnerable, under the emergency plan, by their own individual

success.
There are 600 legally blind, non-institutionalized Rockland residents known to RCAVI. To be legally blind is to see no more than 20/200 with best correction, hinthebettereye,ortohaveavisualradiusoflessthan20. Of the 600 blind known to RCAVI 33 live in Haverstraw, 30 live in Stony Point, 19 live in lPomona,14liveinWestHaverstraw,11liveinGarnerville,7liveinThiells, ar. 2 live in Tomkins Cove.

() In all 116 non-institutionalized blind people are known to live in the northern swath of Rockland County nearest to, and most in danger of the consequences of an accident at the Indian Point Nuclear Plant. I We understand that an additional 200 visually impaired reside in Letchworth De-velopmental Center, in Thiells, but they are not included in the statistics we are presenting. These statistics do include fourteen people who live alone; some in apartments, some in houses. One-third are over sixty, with ages ranging to the nineties. A substantial number have blindness resulting from diabetes, or stroke; others are developmentally disabled. For those blind whose health does not impair mobility, proceeding from one's home to a specific bus stop is not necessarily realistic. The emergency plan, which envisions that residents of this northern sector of the county will evacuate their homes by auto or public bus transportation, j presupposes an ability to make one's way from home to bus stop, or to 7eo lcommunicateapersonalinabilitytodothis. A reported 125' people have returned 3 l lcardsindicatingneedofspecialhelp,intheentiremailingarea. Given 116 ! legally blind known to us, and others not known to us, makes us wonder if the I ia communications have even been read to these blind people. If anyone in this room will close his or her eyes and grope one's way to the j q nearest street corner he/she will understand the realistic probability of a blirid l

~ b i person reaching a specific destination. One must be oriented to the precise I route. Having learned that route, one must be assured that bus drivers will somehow divine that a blind person is waiting for a bus - and not just waiting. L i To the contrary, in our experience blind people are routinely passed by in ~ normal traffic situations. Translate what appears coherent on an impersonal, ldetachedevacuationblueprintwiththemasshysteriaofagenuineevacuation, ! and we can all predict the fate of blind people. If, on top of all the 9 obstacles outlined, a blind person must also cross a street or a highway to reach i a bus stop, one can only predict disaster. This plan does not realistically address the plight of people with cataracts and 1accidentalblindnesgk'$$NNI and glaucoma and macular degeneration and optic atrophy and NcNabgenerat on a m nations of these conditions, exacerbated by l related health limitations. i l .i () i l i l i l -end-2 (" l I h -r-mv-.e g, w ,.u,-,r.- -w-- wr w-= um w

4579 1 HR. THORSEN: I believe Ms. Fleisher is going 2 to cross. 3 CROSS EXAMINATION O 4 BY HS. FLEISHER: 5 Q Good morning, Ms. Wein. l 6 A (WITNESS WEIN) Good morning. 7 0 Do you have any knowledge of the Rockland 8 County radiological emergency response plan? 9 A (WITNESS WEIN) I have read this plan. 10 0 And you appeared to know, from what you just 11 said, what the boundaries are of the emergency planning 12 zone? 13 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, I've looked at the maps 14 and I understand then. Of course, I don't know precise l 15 street locations within the diagram. 16 0 Therefore, where you state that there are 116 17 people known to you to be visually impaired, there could l 18 be more than that number, could there not, within the l l 19 10-mile EPZ7 l 20 ER. CZAJA: I object to the form of the 21 question. 22 BY Ms. FLEISHER : (Resuming) 23 0 The number that you include does not include j Q 24 any visually impaired people in Clarkstown, is that 25 right? O ALDERSON NEPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4580 O ^ ("It"Ess ar1") ra t - rient-2 0 Would you explain what your agency does, 3 please? 4 A (WITNESS WEIN) Our agency has the function of 5 serving the needs of severely visually impaired people 6 in Bockland County. Our major thrust is to teach then 7 the use of other senses and compensatory skills to 8 partially make up for the lack of vision so that they 9 can continue to live as independently as possible within 10 the community. 11 0 All of them, then, are non-institutionalized, 12 is that righ t ? i 13 A (WITNESS WEIN) The ones I am referring to 14 here are non-institutionalized. 15 0 Do you have any breakdown as to age of the 16 persons that you have listed? 17 A (WITNESS WEIN) I have a breakdown with me. 18 Ages range from children to well in their nineties. 19 0 What is the majority? Well, no, I'm sorry, I 20 can ?t you give us a little more detail about the I 21 breakdown because four answer is too general. 22 A (WITNESS WEIN) Well,.just a moment. I'll 23 look at my figures. O 24 (rause) 25 NR. SOHINKIa I hope Ms. Fleisher is not O I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4581 (]) 1 seeking the age of each of 116 people. 2 JUDGE PARISs We hope not, too. 3 MS. FLEISHERa I'a sorry, I couldn't hear 4 you. 5 WITNESS WEINa Actually, within the area, as 6 is true of visually impaired populations of Rockland and 7 nationwide, at least 60 percent are elderly. That is 8 typical of visual impairment in our country. 9 JUDGE CARTER: How do you define elderly? 10 WITNESS WEINs Sixty or over, up to the 11 nineties, in our experience. 12 JUDGE SHONs Your testimony says one third are l 13 over sixty. 14 JUDGE CARTERS What's tha.t, old timer? 15 WITNESS WEIN: My listing here of the 16 specifically known -- I should clarify, those 17 specifically known to be over 60 are over one-third. We l 18 do not know the age of some of the people within the i 19 sampling tha t I took. 20 I might point out that the information we have I 21 is for our knowledge and records, and we have not-22 gathered it, knowing that it would be used -- that it 23 would have to meet your needs. () 24' BY NRS. FLEISHER: (Resuming) 25 0 How many of those persons do you think are l O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

t 4582 1 ambulatory? i ) 2 A (WITNESS WEIN) This again is detailed 3 information that we do.not have. I think I pointed out O 4 that there are some disease-related -- a lot of the 5 visual impairment is related to disease such as diabetic 6 re tinopa thy. Some people with diabetes are severely 7 ill, some are able to get around. l 8 We don't have the specific knowledge. What we l 9 do know is that if one is to travel any distance, one 10 needs to have what we call mobility skills, which we 11 teach, and to know the route. Whether or not the people 12 involved would know the route to reach a bus alone is a 13 big unknown, and that is our concern. () 14 0 How would a person be taught where to go in 15 the first place? 16 A (WITNESS WEIN) Our practice, when any of our 17 clients -- when we teach our clients, we teach them the 18 routes to the areas that they are apt to need to use. 19 In a situation -like this, we would need to have an 20 instructor evaluate the ability of each individual blind 21 person to reach the specific bus destinition, and if 22 not, to teach the person that route, which would mean 23 using reference points and. landmarks along the way and (]) 24 having adequate as necessary training and skills. 25 0 And some of the part of these people are not O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4583 (]) 1 totally impaired, is that right? 2 A (WITNESS WEIN) The majority of visually 3 impaired people are not totally without sight. That 4 does not necessarily mean they have what we call travel 5 vision. 6 Q What mechanism do you have for teaching 7 people? You mentioned that you teach people in their 8 homes, is that right? 9 A (WITNESS WEIN) In their homes and in the 10 community. 11 Q And do you have members of your staff that go 12 to visit them to teach them things like this? 13 A (WITNESS WEIN) Precisely. That is what our O 14 staff does, and teaches them the techniques and the 15 skills and the equipment to use in order to, among other 16 things, to walk in the community. 17 0 Her many members on your staff do that? 18 A (WITNESS WEIN) We have one orientation 19 mobility instructor. 20 Q How much time does one person spend when he or 21 she goes out on the road, so to speak, with each 22 patient? 23 A (WITNESS WEIN) Each lesson is about an hour, () 24 and depending upon the needs of the individual, it can 25 be just a few hours lessons or it can be once or twice a O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4584 () 1. week for a year. 2 0 Does that one person get to visit every one of 3 the people that you have on your list once a year? 4 A (WITNESS WEIN) No, not necessarily. The 5 people -- we work with those blind or visually impaired 6 people who want and accept our services. There are a 7 variety of personal reasons and health reasons why that 8 may not be taught to an individual. 9 0 Do you work also.within the social situation 10 insofar as if there was someone else that lives with 11 tha t person, do you work with that other one to help the 12 blind person? 13 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, if that is appropriate ( 14 and the individual will accept it. We are a voluntary 15 agency, and people have the choice of how much of our 18 services they will accept. 17 0 How do you expect that those persons who call 18 on you and whom you have taught could make it to a bus, 19 let's say, if they heard a siren? 20 A (WITNESS WEIN) We have never determined that, 21 and I think we.vould have to make -- our orientation 22 mobility instructor. vould have to make an individual 23 assessment of each case because each person is different () 24 f rom another. 25 0 Would you explain quickly what the Trip O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4585 () 1 service is that Rockland County offers? 2 A (WITNESS WEIN) Because transportation in a 3 suburban community like this is ordinarily a tremendous 4 problem and one may or may not have a member of the 5 family to transport you when you need it, our agency 6 along with two others originated and developed something 7 called the Trips System. It presently has six buses and 8 provides approximately.100 rides a day for all eligible 9 elderly and handicapped, not just blind, but wheelchair to and other physically handicapped, in order to. transport 11 these people from their curb to their destination. 12 Otherwise there would simply be no transportation for 13 them. I do not have the numbers because 14 I think 15 they've never been gathered, but I know that every day 16 the Trip System refuses rides because it does not have 17 adequate capacity, even though it provides 100 rides a 18 day to this variety of population. I 19 0 We'll ask Mr. Spiege1 ~ the details of the Trip 20 capacity, but vould your blind people prefer the Trips ~ 21 bus to a route bus? 22 HR. CZAJAs Objection. 23 NR. SOHINKIs Objection. Unless there is some () 24 basis or foundation laid for the question. l 25 MS. FLEISHER: The reason I asked that is O l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4586 (]) because if the blind people can't find their way to a 1 2 bus designated in the brochure, I just want to know that 3 before we can ask Mr. Spiegel how many of those people O 4 he could accommodate. 5 HR. SOHINKIt The problem is how could she 6 speculate on that, Mr. Chairman, if a basis hasn 't been 7 laid for the question. 8 HS. FLEISHER: I would ask no speculative 9 answer, but an answer of her knowledge. 10 JUDGE CARTER: I'm not clear on what the 11 question is. I couldn't hear it. 12 HS. FLEISHER: I an.sorry. I asked if the 13 visually impaired would not be far better off if they ( 14 had the Trips bus to come for them af ter they heard a 15 siren rather than to have to make their way to a public 16 bus route. 17 HR. SOHINKIs That wasn't my recollection of l 18 the original question. 19 JUDGE PARISs I think that was the question. l 20 What is a Trips bus? 21 WITNESS WEINa These are the six buses that 22 are especially designed to. call at the curb of an 23 eligible rider who is elderly and needing that ride, er (]) 24 handicapped, and it takes them to the curb of their 25 destination. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 V'RGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4587 (]) 1 JUDGE PARISs Why don't you ask a few 2 questions about Trips buses? 3 HS. FLEISHER: Well, sir, Mr. Spiegel is 4 coming on next, and he is in charge of them, and I 5 thought he would probably know how many buses there are, 6 what their capacity is, and how he would schedule then 7 in an emergency, okay? 8 I just wanted Mrs. Rein to let us know how the 9 blind feel about the Trips buses and how they feel about 10 getting to a regular route. In fact, that was my last 11 question. i 12 WITNESS WEINs I cannot speak for the l 13 individual attitude of each blind person. Certainly if 14 a bus stop is remote, it is difficult, although there 15 are independent travelers who can make it. It has been 16 the experience of blind clients of our agency who have 17 gotten to a corner to take a public bus that very of ten 18 the public bus passes them by. They night have 19 sufficient vision to get to the corner and see an 20 obscure bus. They may not be able to differentiate the 21 bus from a big truck, but they know it's a big blur, but 22 they:have reported to us that public buses that pass 23 them by are unaware that they are really waiting for the 24 bus. 25 JUDGE PARIS: Do the Trips buses serve your O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4588 (]} 1 clients, some of your clients? 2 WITNESS WEINa Some of our clients, yes. 3 BY HRS. FLEISHERs (Resuming) O 4 0 I could ask you, and I believe you could 5 answer, they have to apply for a trip, don't they? 6 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, they do. They apply to l 7 us and submit appropriate medical ophthalmalogical 8 information so that we can determine the truly 9 eligible. 10 0 And when they need a ride, their bus doesn't 11 come by regularly. They have to call into the Trips 12 of fice, is that not so, and make an appointment? l 13 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, the standard operating () 14 procedure for Trips is that one calls within two to five 15 days before a ride is needed. The night before a ride, 18 the dispatcher calls all of those individuals back to 17 let them know whether it can or cannot accongoda te 18 them. It does not operate on Sundays or nighttises. 1 1 19 HS. FLEISHERs Thank you, Tour Honor. I an l 20 finished with my questions. 21 JUDGE CARTERa Es. Kessler, d6 you have any 22 questions? 23 Ns. Posner? () 24 Any others? 25 All rich.t. O l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4589 1 MS. KESSLER: Your Honor, I have to leave, and (} 2 I have distributed these maps that are relevant to Chief 3 Kralik 's testimony yesterda y. You asked if we could O 4 redo them. The Licensees have agreed these are 5 adequate, and I would like to give them to.you. 6 This is RCSE Exhibits 2A ands 2B. 7 JUDGE CARTERa Fine. You can distribute them.. 8 MS. POSNERs I do have a question of Mrs. Wein. 9 CROSS EXAMINATION 10 BY MS. POSNER: 11 Q Are any of your clients parents? Do any of 12 your clients have children, or do you know that, whether 13 or not they do? ( 14 A (WITNESS WEIN) I don't think I am able to 15 tell you for the area that we are talking about. I just l 16 don 't know. 17 CROSS EXAMINATION I I 18 BY MR. CZAJA: i 19 Q Ns. Wein, first I want to be sure I understand l 20 your statistics. 21 You first said that there are'116 l 22 non-institutionalized blind people in the area described j 23 in your direct testimony. Then approximately five or () 24 six lines down you state "these statistics do include 14 25 people who live alone." l l () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4590 1 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes. {) 2 Q Am I understand that out of those 116 people, 3 14 live along and the remaining 102 live with someone? O 4 A (WITNESS WEIN) Not necessarily. We have 5 unknowns, and I simply didn't give you the unknowns. We 6 know for sure that those who live alone are the number 7 that show on our records. 8 Q Then further down on the first page of your 9 direct testimony, you mentioned the number of 10 individuals who have returned cards, and you corrected 11 that number to 200. 12 Have you seen those cards? 13 A (WITNESS WEIN) No. () 14 0 What is the source of your knowledge with 15 regard to the cards? l 16 .A (WITNESS WEIN) This is hearsay information 17 that was given to me. 18 0 By Mr. McGuire? s 18 A (WITNESS WEIN) No. 20 0 What was the source of the hearsay? 21 A (WITNESS WEIN) The Intervenots. 22 0 Interviews'with whom? 23 A (WITNESS WEIN) The Intervenors. (]) 24 Q Have you made any attempt to obtain the 25 information on the cards that relate to visually O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 1

4591 Q 1 impaired people? 2 A (WITNESS WEIN) We simply do not have the 3 financial wherewithal to do any such research. 4 0 You don't even have the financial wherewithal 5 to get copies of the cards? 6 A (WITNESS WEIN) I suppose we could. write a 7 letter to someone and ask for it. 8 Q Do you know who has the cards? 9 A (WITNESS WEIN) No. 10 0 The Intervenors didn't tell you that? 11 A (WITNESS WEIN) I didn't ask. 12 Q Has your agency undertaken any measures to 13 encourage visually impaired persons to-return those 14 cards? 15 A (WITNESS WEIN) No. Let me tell you, we are a 16 voluntarily, privately financed agency suffering severe 17 cutbacks, and we simply would not have the kind of labor 18 or time to do it. 19 Q As I understand your testimony in response to 20 Es. Fleisher's questions, in the normal course of duties 21 your volunteers visit visually impaired ~ people in their 22 homes, is that correct? 23 A (WITNESS WEIN) These are not volunteers. O 24 o 1 *no= oat 7our orevio== a er rou re - 25 volunteer agency. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4592 Q 1 A (WITNESS WEIN) When I say voluntary, I mean a 2 private agency, okay? The people who -- the instructors 3 work in clients homes, they are specially trained. O 4 Q These instructors in the normal course of 5 their duties do visit the homes of your clients. 6 A (WITNESS WEIN) That is where they instruct 7 them. That is the appropriate site, yes. 8 Q And I take it these instructors have not been 9 directed to ask or encourage the visually impaired that 10 they visit in the normal course of their duties, they 11 don 't ask them to return or encourage them to return the 12 tearout cards from the public information brochures? 13 A (WITNESS WEIN) That is not a function of an 14 instructor. A function of an instructor is to teach 15 skills to the blinds clients. 16 Q Basically you don't see the function of 17 encouraging visually impaired people to return those 18 tearout cards to be within the functioning of your 19 agency. 20 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes, that would be part of 21 public educa tion and that would be something that would 22 be done, and we send out a newsletter. Whether or not 23 people read the newsletter to our clients is not 24 somethinct that we can predict. So we can attempt public 25 education in that way, and it woulk be appropriate. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 . _ - - --._---_ ____- - ___u

4593 1 0 And have you put anything into your newsletter (} 2 to date about the tearout cards? 3 A (WITNESS WEIN) There's one going out in O 4 August, and we can put it in our newsletter. 5 Q Now, is it within the function of your agency 6 to assist the visually impaired to handle other 7 emergency situations? 8 A (WITNESS WEIN) It is within the function of 9 our agency to help people cope with all of the problems 10 of daily living to the extent possible. We make no 11 promise that a severely visually impaired people can 12 absolutely. live with the freedom and independence and 13 ease of sighted people. The reality is that is not 14 truly possible. 15 0 Are there any specific attempts for the role 16 of your agency in dealing with the visually impaired to 17 deal with a situation where there is a flood, for 18 example? 19 A (WITNESS WEIN) No. There has not been in the 20 past. I don't think we have ever thought of that as a ~ 21 normal occurrence of daily living. 22 0 How about a fire in their residence? 23 A (WITNESS WEIN) I think the orientation and (]) 24 mobility skills that one would learn at the very 25 beginning about getting out the front door would be O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4594 1 possible. Where you go from the front door then becomes [} 2 a very individualized thing. 3 0 I'm sorry, I am not sure I understand. 4 Nobility training extends to getting out the front 5 door. 6 A (WITNESS WEIN) Well, the first learning of 7 any blind person would be how to get around one's own 8 living quarters safely. This literally may mean how do 9 you get up out of a chair because people are paralyzed to by fear very much as well as hampered by their visual 11 limitations, so that if you are sufficiently mobile, you 12 are taught how to get around your home. You want -- in 13 other words, everyone starts from the same base. () 14 Depending upon the needs of the individual, the lessons l [ 15 there are extremely customized. 16 Now, the needs of some people might be 17 confined to their immediate community and maybe going 18 shopping, going to a doctor's office, and they may live 19 very circumscribed lives, and the lessons voudl be 20 confined to that. On the other hand, we have had l 21 students who have been taught to use public 22 transportation. It is very much a matter of personal 23 motivation, personal health and need. () 24 Q If a visually impaired persons is going to 25 take public transportation and is going to be O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4595 1 accompanied by a person who is not visually impaired, I {) 2 take it the ability of the visually impaired persons to 3 gain access to that transportation in that event is O 4 entirely independent of the mobility skills that he may 5 have. 6 A (WITNESS WEIN) Well, we teach what we call 7 ' sighted guide because most people lead blind people 8 incorrectly rather than correctly. But given that 9 instruction, the sighted guide isn 't all you need. 10 There is no guarantee that your sighted guide is 11 available when you need that sighted guide in an 12 emergency. 13 JUDGE PARISa What is the tera you are using? () 14 WITNESS WEIN: Sighted guide. 15 JUDGE PARISs What is that? 10 WITNESS WEINs Those of us, any of us who 17 would be leading a blind person in our jargon is a 18 sighted guide. 19 BY MR. CZAJAs (Resuming) 20 0 On page 2 of your direct testimony, on the 21 sixth line down, you referred to " mass hysteria of 22 genuine evacuation." 23 What is the basis for your view, if it is your (]) 24 view, that there would be mass hysteria in the event of 25 a genuine evacuation? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4596 O 1 A (WITNESS WEIN) I think that all unscientific 2 observation and all studies that have been made of 3 reactions to situations, pa rticularly calling to mind 4 the Orson Welles broadcast -- some of us in this roon 5 are old enough to remember that -- indicates, I think, 6 how people behave under a mass panic situation. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 l 18 19 20 ~ 21 22 23 O 24 25 O l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4597 (]) 1 0 Other than your unscientific observation and 2 the Orson Welles broadcast, do you have any other basis 3 for the sta tement? 4 A (WITNESS WEIN) Yes. It's a long time since I 5 had sociology courses and social psychology courses, and 6 I'm afraid I cannot quote to you now my ref erences. But 7 certainly there were ample studies of how people react. 8 MR. THORSEN I think we have no trouble with 9 changing the words " mass hysteria" to something like 10 " potential problems." 11 WITNESS WEINs All right. 12 (Pause.) l 13 MR. H ASSELLs It would be nice if that came 14 from the witness. 15 WITNESS WEIN: I have no problems with th e 16 amendment. 17 MR. CZAJAa I have no further questions. l 18 JUDGE CARTER: Thank you. 19 (Pause.) 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION ~ 21 BY MR. SOHINKIa 22 0 Ms. Wein, do you know what percentage of the l 23 visually impaired people whom you have identified have () 24 travel vision? 25 A (WITNESS WEIN) You mean on our whole roster O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINtA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4598 (]) 1 of 116? 2 0 The 116. 3 A (WITNESS WEIN) No, no, we do not. I can say O 4 to you that in our universal experience better than 50 5 percent would not have travel vision.. I'm making a 6 careful statement. 7 JUDGE PARIS: You mean, by " universal 8 experience," you mean that is the national average? 9 . WITNESS WEIN: No. Within our agency, which to seems to replicate what happens nationally. 11 JUDGE PARIS: I see. 12 BY NR. 50HINKIt (Resuming) 13 0 Do you know how many of the 116 () 14 non-institutionalized visually impaired persons are 15 transit-dependent in the event of an emergency? 16 A (WITNESS WEIN) No, we do not have that 17 information. That would take quite a bit of research to 18 find out. 19 0 Do you know whether the tear-off cards from 20 the brochure ask people to indicate whether they are 21 transit-dependent or not? ~ 22 A (WITNESS WEIN) No, I do not. 23 NR. SOHINKIs I think that's all the questions (]) 24 I have, Nr. Chairman. 25 JUDGE CARTER: Mr. Hassell? () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4599 1 NR. HASSELLs The Staff has no questions. 2 HR. THORSENs I have ne redirect. 3 JUDGE CARTER: Thank you very much, Mrs. O 4 Wein. You are finsished. We appreciate your coming. 5 HS. WEIN: Thank you. 6 (Witness excused.) 7 JUDGE CARTERa I think we are about to break 8 for lunch, but do you have another witness here? 9 HR. THORSEN Yes, Judge. 10 JUDGE CARTERS I'd like to get any corrections 11 of his testimony on and make sure that is complete 12 before we break for lunch, and then we have a short 13 motion to be put on the record. 14 Would you call your witness. 15 Whereupon, .16 LEON ARD SPIEGEL 17 called as a witness by counsel for Rockland County, was 18 examined and testified as follows: 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. THORSENs 21 Q Would you please state your fhll name, 22 business address, and occupation? 23 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) My name is Leonard 24 Spiegel. I am Rockland County transit coordinator and 25 our office is at the Rockland County health complex in O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4600 (]) 1 Pomona, New York. 2 0 Do you have in front of you your direct 3 testimony consisting of two pages? 4 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes, I do. 5 0 Do you have any corrections or additions which 6 you would like to make to your testimony to ensure that 7 the testimony is complete and up to date at this time? 8 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No, I don't. 9 JUDGE CARTER: Before you do, let me swear you. 10 (Witness sworn.) 11 WITNESS SPIEGELa I have no corrections or 12 additions. 13 BT HR. THORSENs (Resuming) 14 0 Is your testimony true and correct to the best 15 of your knowledge and belief. 16 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes. 17 HR. THORSENs I would now move the admission 18 of the direct testimony of Leonard Spiegel and ask that 19 it be bound into the record as if read. 20 JUDGE CARTER: Any objection? ~ 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE CARTER: I hear none. 23 Thank you, Mr. Spiegel. () 24 (The documerit referred to, the two-page direct 25 testimony of Leonard Spiegel, followss) ALDERSON PEPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

G4.k,{/ l 9 f 2J[81 I i TESTD0NY OF LBJNARD SPIII3EL Q State your full name and address. A My name is Iconard Spiegel. I live at 67 Blauvelt Foad, Itmsey, New York. W Q Are you ecployed by the County of Fockland, and if so, in what capacity. A I was first eriployed by the County of Rockland in January,1977, as Transit L Marketing Coordinator. In January, 1981, I became Transit Administrator. On ' April 13th, 1982 I became Transit Coordinator. O l hhat are your respcosibilities in that position. A l My responsibility as Transit Coordinator is to administer contracts with federal l and state governnents that ccre through Rockland County, in relaticn to ' operating a transit systan on fixed bus routes, as well as an elderly and t < handicapped transportation systan. L j Q Please state for the record the existing structure of the bus systems which ioperate in Fockland County. A There are two private bus operators th operate local and conmuter bus service; there are three nunicipal bus operators operating local service, Transport of jPocklandisacountybusservicewhichoperatesthroughoutthecounty;Clarkstown j l ' Mini Trans operates within the Town of Clarkstown, the Spring Valley Jitney Bus Other than that, there are ) service operates within the Village of Spring Valley. i a1 many school bus operators within the county. I .i Q J How many buses are d ually owned by the County of Fockland or leased by the County of Ibckland? j The county, under my direction, operates 6 small buses that are leased frm A !]TRIPSINC.,anot-for-profitcorporation.Eachbuscarriestwelvepassengers l}

! and has space for two wheelchairs. My department for the TRIPS service eriploys i

4 c'seven full tire municipal bus drivers, and two less than full time municipal busl 'l;idrivers. They are on duty during variable times frm 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., five days il 1 a wxt with one driver on Saturday. This bus service is called TRIPS bus service -f i i and it is for the service only of elderly and handicapped passengers.

( [ o i Q f Are you familiar with the section of the Pockland County Padiological &ergency Pesponse Plan as it existed prior to Besolution tb. 320 of 1982 of the Ibckland t !! County Irgislature insofar as it deals with transportation? Does Bockland 0 v i County have arrangments or agrements with private bus ccrrpanies for the use loftheirbusesanddriversduringaradiologicalenergency. A f No. Does your departmnt have a listing of all handicapped people within the County Q 1 e of Pockland and vehicles to transport those people in the event of a radiologi-cal emeroency? A No, we only have a listing of those handicapped passengers who have signed up and 4! i ]d have beenissued identity cards to allow them to use the TRIPS service. 'Ihere are 1 j I

scoe transportation services for handicapped in the county under the auspices of q a: rp Jawanio and the IIcalth Cmplex, itself, and also various agencies that deal C

s.h with the handicapped, i O j hhat are the responsibilities of the Rockland County Office of the Transit J I Coordinator under the Pocklarrl County Radiological &crgency Response Plan i j as it existed prior to Pesolution ?b. 320 of 1982 of the Ibckland County Ingislature? i A In the event of an mergency it is the Transit Coordinator's responsibility to j alert certain bus operators and to prepare than for the possibility of having to evacuate people frcm the site. Upon instructions to evacuate, the Transit Coordinator would then inform those bus operators who have been des'gnated to evacuate that particular area to send the buses out cc routes that have been pro-f (} ' determined to evacuaul 't.3 people who are at the stop3, l 0 l Is the Office of the Pockland C;unti Transih Coordinator responsible for overall I > coordination of evacuation vehicles. l i A 'No. Just for the buses used in the evacuati m. In the event of an arcrgency, 2 ~it would be both private and county buses. I i i

4601 (]) 1 JUDGE CARTER The Staff has requested to put 2 in the record something at this point. We will be 3 recessing for one hour. Will you be able to return? 4 All rig h t, thank you. 5 Mr. McGurren? 6 MR. McGURRENs The Staff would like to make 7 known objections to a document filed on July 19, 1982, 8 by UCS-NYPIRG entitled "UCS-NYPIRG First Set of 9 Interrogatories and Document Request to the NBC Staff on 10 Board Questions 1, 2 and 5. " I make this objection 11 pursuant to the Boa rd 's July 6 th order, wherein they 12 state that today would be the day to hear objections on 13 these interrogatories. 14 On page 5 of this document appears the first 15 interrogatory that the Staff objected to. It 's 16 interrogatory number 5, which providesa " Provide a 17 listing and specify the most serious criticisms of the 18 NRC Staff of the IPPSS and discuss whether the matters 19 being criticized resulted in an under-or oterestimation 20 of consequences and/or probabilities of accidents at 21 Indian Point, and the msgnitude of the Onder-or 22 overestination." l 23 First, we believe this interrogatory is vague 1 () 24 and it is not clear what is meant by "most serious i 25 criticisms." Second, ALAB-613, which is Pennsylvania l l ([) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINfA AVE., S.W., W ASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l

4602 (]) 1 Power C Light, Susquehanna Steam Electric Stations Units 2 1 and 2, which is 12 NRC 317 at 344, which is a 1980 i i 3 decision -- 4 JUDGE CARTER: What was the page number? 5 HR. McGURREN: 344. 6 Indicates that in responding to discovery 7 requests a party is not required to engage in extensive 8 independent research, and a party requested to respond l 9 to an interrogatory need only reveal information in its 10 possession or control. 11 What we believe is being requested here, Your 12 Honor, is a compilation of a list. We consider this not 13 required and we consider it also burdensome. 14 Fi nally, we would like the Board to note that 15 we are villing to respond to one of the earlier 16 requests, and I think it is important that I read it so 17 that the Board can indicate what I'm getting at. 18 JUDGE CARTER: Is it on the same subject 19 matter? i 20 HR. McGURREN We believe it is, Hr. 21 Chairman. It is number 2, and it says:- " Provide all 22 documents which contain and/or pertain to evaluations, 23 assessments, critiques and/or criticisms of the Indian () 24 Point probabilistic safety study." That is number 2. j 25 Would you like to hear UCS on this, before I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4603 (]) 1 move on to the other objections. 2 JUDGE CARTERS How many others do you have? l 3 ER. McGURREN: Just two.

()

4 JUDGE CARIER: Are they separate topics? 5 NR. McGURRENs They are, Mr. Chairman. l l 6 JUDGE CARTE 3 All right. Let's hear Mr. Blum 7 on this first one very briefly. 8 HR. McGURRENs Before I go on, I didn't read 9 all of 2. I just tried to give you an idea of what 2 l 10 was. 11 JUDGE CARTEB4 We 'll read them over. That 12 just gives u% a general idea. I 13 Er. Blum? 14 NR. LEVIN: Your Honor, are we going to 15 undertake now to register objections? I didn't think 16 17 JUDGE CARTER: The Staff falls into somewhat s 18 different category than other parties in regard to the 19 production of the documents and answering 20 interrogatories. 21 NR. LEVINs We're not going t6 deal with the 22 entire topic now? l 23 JUDGE CARTERS No. (]) 24 Briefly summarize your position. 25 MR. BLUM: Our position is, there seem to be O i l ALDERSON REPORTING CvMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (20?) 554 2345

4604 (]) 1 three objections, two of which are easily cleared up, 2 and we have negotiated about these; and then there is 3 one substantial issue remaining for the Board to rule 4 on. 5 With regard to the problem of vagueness in the 6 term "most serious," I offered a definition to clarify 7 that "most serious" means either most pertinent with 8 regard to the calculation of overall risk of the plants 9 or most revealing of inadequate technical competence in 10 the preparation of the study, and the Staff could 11 specify which of those two meanings of "most serious" 12 thay were using. 13 Secondly, with regard to the quantitative 14 burdensome issue, what we are really asking for.here is 15 the Staff's opinion on which of their criticisms they 16 consider most pertinent or most serious. And in order 17 to get around any kind of problem of burdensomeness, I 18 suggested defining " listing" as listing a number of 19 criticisms that the Staff judges to be most serious, but 20 in any event not exceeding ten criticisms. 21 So what we are lef t with is whether we are 22 entitled to get the Staff's opinion at the present time 23 of which of the criticisms are most substantial, and we () 24 believe that we are. If in the existing documents the 25 S taf f has done this somewhere, they could simply point O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4605 () 1 us to that end say, here's where we inder our five or 2 six most serious criticisms. If they haven 't done it in 3 existing documents, we feel that is a fair discovery 4 request. 5 JUDGE CARTER: Are you familiar with this 6 enough, this material, to know whether you do have the 7 material and whether it's ranked in any order? l 8 MR. McGURREN Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't 9 know if it has been done. It is my belief at this 10 stage, without checking, that we have not done what has 11 been requested here. 12 JUDGE PARISa To get the ten worst things he 13 vants, would you have to go through or would someone O 14 have to go through a long list of incidents? I mean, I 15 have no feeling -- to select the ten worst out of all 16 that you have, would it be a big. job, is what I'm asking 17 rou. 18 How many criticisms do you have? 19 MR. McGURRENs Your Honor, I really don't 20 know. But I think that the objection is not based on 21 burdensome alone. We also feel that we~are not required 22 by the case law to make a list. 23 JUDGE PARISa Regardless of how burdensome it O 24 wou1d ber 25 JUDGE CARTER: I think it is possible that in O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. N 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4606 l (]) 1 the ordinary course of business the records may be 2 maintained in such a way that they could be presented i 3 for consideration in order to resolve that problem. l 4 There is a part of the Federal Rules which spells that 5 out. I just can't put my finger on it, but I will get 6 it for you; in the federal discovery rules, which I 7 think covers this kind of situation, which may be 8 helpful to resolve it. 9 Would you just next identif y the next to problem? I think we will not rule on this until you 11 make some inquiry as to what records are maintained and 12 the manner in which they are maintained, and let me know 13 on Monday about that. 14 JUDGE PARIS: Mr. McGurren, before we go on, 15 to pick out the ten most serious criticisms would 18 somebody have to go through all criticisms and decide 17 which are the ten most serious, or what? 18 HR. McGURRENs I would imagine so. That's 19 part of the difficulty. That would be part of one of 20 our concerns, and that would be the emergency part. 21 The other two objections concern 22 interrogatories number 26 and 27. 23 JUDGE CARTER: Excuse me. I found it. Rule (/ 24 34(b) of the Federal Rules provides as follows: "A 25 party who produces documents for inspection shall O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4607 () 1 produce them as they are kept in the usual course of 2 business or shall organize and label them to correspond 3 with the categories in the request." 4 So it's in the usual course of business or 5 categories in the request. In other words, that would 6 seem to me that they should be -- if they're not kept as 7 a group of criticism, that tha t rule, a t least if 8 applicable, would r,equire that. 9 MR. McGURRENs But Your Honor, what I'm also 10 saying is that interrogatory number 2, wherein they are 11 asking for the documents in existence, we are villing to 12 comply with that. 13 JUDGE CARTER: But we're not sure whether the 14 documents contain the criticisms, and we'll have to look l 15 at that and you 'll have to look into it further. We'll i 16 probably know by Monday. 17 Let's just identify the other problem. 18 MR. BLUM4 Your Honor, I would request that if 19 the Staff has formed no opinion as to the seriousness of 20 the different criticisms that they state that and put 21 that on the record, that they have not formed an 22 opinion. 23 JUDGE CARTERS I don't think that Mr. McGurren () 24 knows at this time. 25 JUDGE PARIS: I think forming no opinion and O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4608 ({} 1 deciding which are the ten worst are two different 2 things. I mean, one you've got to go through and 3 seriate, you know, the seriousness of all of them. 4 Well, in a sense you do have to do that. 5 HR. BLUHs I wonder, then, if the 6 burdensomeness does become a problem for that reason, l 7 whether we could amend the request to have them pick out 8 ten that are among the -- 9 JUDGE PARISs You'd still have to go through 10 them. 11 JUDGE CARTER s I'd like you to do this. I 12 would like you to get the information and then convey it 13 to Mr. Blum, and try once again to resolve the issue 14 involving question number 5. 15 HR. HASSELLs And if we can't we'll come back 16 to you. 17 JUDGE CARTERS And then get in touch with me. 18 All right. 19 Next, Hr. McGurren? 20 HR. McGURRENs The other Staff objections l 21 concern interrogatories number 26 and 27. 26 is 10 or 22 11 lines. 23 JUDGE CARTER: We will read that over lunch. () 24 What is the objection? 25 HR. McGURRENs The objection is they are O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

l 4609 O tree 1 v t-rour no or a ta

1 1aaic tea oa **e 2

very face of the interrogatories. 26 concerns 3 non-nuclear electrical generating facilities, and we 4 feel that does not relate to questions 1, 2 and 5 of the 5 Commission. Accordingly, we object to both of these. 6 JUDGE CARTER: Send that one to the FERC. 7 Ne xt? 8 MR. McGURRENs That's it, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE CARTERa Those are the two? Okay. 10 Can you lend that to me to read over lunch? 11 We 'll adjourn now for one hour. 12 (Ehereupon, at 12:08 p.m., the hearing in the 13 above-entitled matter was recessed, to reconvene at 1:08 O 14 p.m. the same day.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 ~ 21 22 23 24 T. 25 O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4610 () 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 (1:10 p.m. ) 3 JUDGE CARTER 4 Back on the record. 4 Mr. McGurren? 5 MR. McGURRENs Your Honor, before we broke for 6 lunch, you mentioned Rule 34 I would like to direct 7 the Board 's attention to a rule that we feel should be 8 looked at, and that is Rule 33(c), entitled " Option to 9 produce business records." 10 JUDGE CARTERS Thank you. We will review 11 that. 12 The Poard over the luncheon recess re-examined 13 the interrogatories and believes there is a need for 14 further communication between the parties with a view to 15 identifying the available documents with regard to 16 questions 26 and 27. On the question of relevancy, we 17 are still not finally decided, but we believe it would 18 help if the existence of any documents.in relation to 19 the inquiry were first determined -- if it was first 20 determined whether or not they exist and which ones they 21 are, and ve would like you to continue to review this 22 matter and give us a report before the close of business 23 on Tuesday next. () 24 MR. McGURREN We will. Thank you. 25 MR. BLUM: This is somewhat unusual, but with O ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4611 () 1 regard to 26 and 27 I may want to support the Staff's 2 objection to the interrogatories. 3 JUDGE CARTER: Well, you could do that by 4 remaining silent, Mr. Bica. 5 MR. BLUMs The problem is, what we need is a 6 ruling from the Board as to whether these comparisons S 7 between nuclear generating f acilities and ' non-nuclear 8 f acilities are relevant in this hearing. If we have a 9 ruling they're not relevant, we 'd be delighted to 10 withdraw this. That would be the end of the matter, and 11 then they won't have to go through an unnecessary 12 document search. 13 JUDGE CARTER: Well, that matter I said was O 14 still under consideration. The Board may change its 15 mind by Tuesday, but.ve would like you to continue to 16 work on resolving it between yourselves in any way you 17 can. I 18 It is not entirely free from doubt as to 19 whether comparisons may or may not be made. 20 We can go off the record. 21 (Discussion off the. record.) ~ l 22 MR. 1EVIN: On those interrogatories that Mr. l l 23 Blum was just referencing, I believe 26 and 27, I'd like () 24 for the Board to be aware that the Power Authority has 25 an interest in the question of the relevance of those O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4612 1 kinds of comparisons and would request that it be O 2 1ac1=ded in en1 discu==len that addre that 3 relevance. 4 JUDGE CARTER: What is your position on the 5 question? 6 MR. LEVIN: We haven't concluded a position 7 yet, but it may be important to the presentation of our 8 case. 9 JUDGE CARTER: When can you let us know? 10 MR. LEVIN: At the same time the others can, 11 Your Honor, which would be Tuesday, I would think. 12 JUDGE PARIS: You want to engage in the 13 discussions they carry on? 14 O MR. LEVIN: Absolutely. 15 JUDGE CARTERa If you're going to engage in 16 the discussion and you say you have an interest, then 17 rou must, I think, take a position on whether it is 18 relevant or irrelevant. 19 HR. LEVIN 4 What I am pointing out to the 20 Bo'ard is that we haven't concluded that yet, and the 21 Licensees may even have different positions on the 22 question. 23 JUDGE CARTER: I would like you to let us 24 know. 25 MR. LEVIN: It is a general issue and we O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4613 () 1 request to be included on any conversations having to do i 2 with comparative health effects. 3 JUDGE CARTER: Mr. Brandenburg? 4 HR. BRANDENBURGa I have sat quiet up until a 5 moment ago in what I believe was an intramural debate 6 between the Staff and the Intervenors. If there are 7 questions of the scope of this proceeding that we are 8 now addressing, Con Edison would very much like to be l 1 9 included within those. 10 I am handicapped.here by my absence of a copy 11 being served upon me by hand on Honday of the 12 Intervenors' interrogatories to the Staff. It may be 13 that those copies were served by mail to our offices 14 down in New York some time af ter Monday, but I seem to l l 15 recall the Board's ruling on that is that we were to be 16 served by hand. 17 And I point out that our interrogatories on 18 these matters were indeed served by hand in our Honday 19 session. 20 JUDGE CARTER: Could you ask Mr. Blum for a 21 copy if you didn't get it? 22 HR. BR ANDENBURG I could, and if the Board 23 wishes me to state a position on it, obviously, I would () 24 need some time to formulate my position after I've had a 25 chance to review these interrogatories 26 and 27. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 ~ -. -..,. _., _. _ _.

4614 () 1 JUDGE CARTERS When do you think you will have 2 a position? 3 MR. BRANDENBURG I suspect on Tuesday, Mr. 4 Chairman. 5 JUDGE CARTER: We would hope to make a 6 decision on it by Tuesday. If you will not be able to 7 make a decision until Tuesday, then we may not be able 8 to decide on Tuesday. 9 MB. LEVIN: I would suggest to the Board, it 's 10 not an uncomplicated issue, and that I suspect that the 11 Board is going to need some more information and some i 12 argument from the parties on the question of relevancy. l 13 JUDGE PARIS: It is not a complicated issue or () I 14 it is a complicated issue? 15 NR. LEVIN: It is a complicated issue. I'm j i 16 sorry. 17 JUDGE CARTER: Were the interrogatories 18 propounded to the NRC Staff served to the service list, l t 19 do you know, Mr. Blum? 20 MR. BLUM: I believe they were. There was a 21 special accelerated hand delivery to ths parties who 22 would be answering interrogatories, but. the others were 23 served by mail. () 24 (Discussion of f the record. ) 25 JUDGE CARTER 4 Now, Mr. Spiegel is going to be () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4615 () 1 examined first by Mr. Brandenburg? 2 HR. BRANDENBURGs I'm a little concerned, Mr. l 3 Chairman. I know we have some housekeeping matters to 4 attend to, and perhaps I could inquire of the Board as 5 to when we're going to be breaking here. I do' have some 6 other matters I wanted to raise of a housekeeping 7 -nature, and I didn't want to continue our examination up 8 until the moment that we have to make our mad dash to 9 the exit. 10 JUDGE CARTER: I won't let you. We're going 11 to shoot for 2:30, and I would like to finish this i 12 witness, 'hopef ully in an hour. 13 MR. BRANDENBURGa We can endeavor to do that. O 14 Hy application does relate to our resumption of i 15 activities when we meet again, I believe on August 2nd. 16 JUDGE CARTER: Let's go with Mr. Spiegel right 17 now. Nr. Spiegel, Leonard Spiegel. 18 Whereupon, 19 LEON ARD SPIEGEL 20 the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed 21 the stand and, having been previously duly sworn, was 22 examined and testified further as follows 23 CROSS-EIAMINATION () 24 BY MS. FLEISHER: 25 0 Good afternoon, M r. Spiegel. Would you mind O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4616 i (]} 1 just picking up from where we left off with Mrs. Wein 2 and tell us how many trips buses do you have? 3 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I have six buses. 4 0 And what is the capacity of each of those? 5 Are they all the same? 6 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) They are all the same and 7 each bus has room for 12 seated passengers and 2 8 wheelchair positions. 9 0 What is their role in the plann, Rockland 10 County radiological emergency response plan ? 11 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) To my understanding, these 12 buses are to be used for special purposes other than the i 13 general evacuation, to evacuate people who cannot use 14 the regular transportation. 15 0 You are familiar with that plan, are you not? l 16 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes. 17 Q You are the transit. coordinator in an 18 emergency under that plan? 19 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes. 20 0 And you are the lead, are you not, for ~ 21 tra nsporta tion ? 22 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes. 23 0 Have you ever made a summary of the total () 24 number of buses -- 25 HR. BRANDENBURG I object to that question. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

-4617 O 4 1 thinx it s tertid11 1mprecise. We don t kno for hat 2 purpose, whether we're talking about evacuating special 3 populations generally. We don't even have the question 4 confined to the ERPA's within Rockland County. It is 5 hopelessly too vague. 6 JUDGE CARTERS Re peat the question, Ms. 7 Fleisher. 8 HS. FLEISHER: I asked if he had made a 9 summary of the total number of buses needed for the 10 Rockland County -- 11 HR. PIKUSs We.vould jcin in that objection, 12 Your Honor. 13 JUDGE CARTER: I'm not getting your question. O 14 HS. FLEISHERs Simply, how many buses would he 15 need to fulfil his role under the emergency plan as 16 offered. 17 WITNESS SPIEGEL: No, I have not counted how 18 many buses. There are 60 routes that are elaborated in 19 the plan. 20 BY HS. FLEISHER: (Resuming) 21 Q Are there any agreements with~the bus-owning 22 companies in writing? 23 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No. O 24 o Do 1ou heve eny egreements ith an1 of the bus 25 drivers? O I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4618 () 1 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No. 2 0 Have you been in contact with any of the bus 3 owners? 4 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) The only contact I had was 5 when I was requested to determine the cost of buses for 6 the drill. At that time I contacted all of the 7 companies listed. 8 Q I forgot to ask you, sir. Would you state the 9 length of time you have been in your present job? 10 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I was appointed to my 11 present position on April 13th of this year. 12 Q Have any of the bus owners expressed to you 13 that they could not depend on the drivers under every O 14 circumstance of an emergency response? 15 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I did not discuss that. 16 MR. CZAJA: Judge,I object. 17 JUDGE CARTER: I couldn't hear the beginning 18 of the question. 19 MS. FLEISHERa I could have worded it better, 20 Your Honor. I'll try. 21 I asked if any of the bus owners, since he had 22 said he had been in contact with bus owners, had 23 expressed to him any reservations about the possibility ( 24 of having drivers for those buses. 25 MR. PIKUS: We object to the form of the () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4619 () 1 question, Your Honor. 2 MR. BRANDENBURGs Con Edison joins in the ( 3 o bj ec tio n. CE) 4 JUDGE CARTER : Can you be more specific, M r. 5 Pikus? 6 HR. PIKUS: We have two objections. First of 7 all, it is very vague. We're not talking about 8 scenarios. I'm not sure what she meant by 9 "ci rc um stanc es. " And she's also calling for hearsay 10 testimony as to what these bus operators may have told 11 Mr. Spiegel, and since they're not here to be 12 cross-examined I think it is unreliable testimony. 13 JUDGE CARTER: I thought I recalled the 14 witness' saying he had not considered the problem 15 generally of whether drivers -- 16 EITNESS SPIEGEL 4 I have not discussed tha t 17 with the bus operators. 18 JUDGE PARIS 4 Do you have any information 19 about the availability of drivers for the bus companies 20 you would contact in case of an emergency? 21 WITNESS SPIEGEL No, no. 22 BY NS. FLEISHERs (Resumin g) 23 0 Would the National Guard play any role in () 24 actually carting people under the Rockland County 25 emergency response plan? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 m.

4620 () 1 HR. PIKUS: Objaction, Your Honor. I don't 2 know which people she's talking about. 3 HS. FLEISHER Evacuees. 4 JUDGE CARTER: Answer the question. 5 UITNESS SPIEGEL: Yes, they would come into 6 play at the request of the governor. The way I 7 understand, the county would request of the governor for 8 the National Guard, and he would then order them out. 9 BY HS. FLEISHER: (Resuming) 10 0 And would they have buses? 11 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I don't know what ther 12 have. 13 ER. BRANDENBURG: Maybe carts. 14 BY HS. FLEISHERs (Resuming) 15 0 When might we expect the Guard, under the 16 emergency situation, to be mobilized and able to help 17 us? 18 HR. PIKUSs Objec tion. 19 ER. BRANDENBURG: I'd like to hear the 20 question and then I might have an objection as well. 21 MS. FLEISHER: Since the gentleman has told us 22 that he could depend on the Guard for assistance, I 23 asked.him in what time frame might he expect the Guard l () 24 to be able to assist. 25 HR. PIKUS: We object. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 23d'

18621 O na sannoEasuaG-1 odoect, ro=r a==or-1 2 don't think the question is going to lead to information 3 of any great use to us. We don 't know what event is 4 going to be starting, the period of time in which the 5 request will be made, et cetera. 6 NR. KAPLANs I object to Mr. Brandenburg's 7 o bj ec tion. 8 JUDGE PARIS: Is it within your experience or 9 knowledge to know how long it takes to mobilize the 10 National Guard? 11 WITNESS SPIEGEL: No. 12 BY MS. FLEISHERs (Resuming) 13 0 Perhaps you. would tell us what your duties 14 would have been if we had still the plan in effect? 15 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) It would be my 16 responsibility to, through the private school bus 17 operators that are assigned to the different areas, to 18 provide the transportation for the people who have to 19 get out of the affected areas. 20 0 You would be in the ESC, would you not? 21 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes, I would. 22 0 And you would depend on other agencies within 23 the ESC to bring to you their requirements? O 24 A <WrT*ESS SP1EGEt> res-25 0 You would not initiate any bus movement O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

( 4622 i () I without waiting to be asked ? 2 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I would have to first be 3 told what situation exists and then I would act 4 accordingly. I would not initiate the bus movement on 5 my own. 6 Q Did you hear Mr. Don McGuire's testimony in j 7 part or in total?? 8 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No. 9 Q If buses were to be used to transport evacuees 10 who did not have their own their own transportation and 11 they were sent out on. the bus routes, would you be the 12 one to call them out? 13 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes.' , O 14 0 And would you sssign specific routes to 15 specific buses? i 16 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) The routes are already 17 assigned in the plan to the specific bus companies. I 18 would not assign particular buses within that company to 19 the routes. 20 0 If a company didn 't show up or if a company in 21 some other way failed, it would be your responsibility 22 to adjust accordingly, wouldn't it? 23 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes. () 24 0 When a bus has completed its route, such as we 25 have discussed, how would we know that its route was l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

f46 2 3 O co 91ete? 2 HR. PIKUS: Object to the form of the 3 question. 4 JUDGE CARTER: Did you understand the 5 q uestion ? 6 WITNESS SPIEGEL: Yes. 7 JUDGE CARTER: Answer it. 8 WITNESS SPIEGEL: According to the plan, the 9 driver would radio on a two-vsy radio back to his 10 dispatcher. 11 BY HS. FLEISHER: (Resuming) 12 Q Does every driver have a two-way radio? 13 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No.

O 14 0

Other than that, how would he report to the I 15 dispatcher? 16 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Normal communications is 17 that he finds a phone booth and calls the dispatcher on 18 the telephone. 19 0 Ihen he would be sent out on that route again 20 if needed? 21 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) If needed,*yes. l 22 0 Would the dispatcher radio directly to the 23 EBS? Who would advise the radio broadcasting system O 24 thet the hus hed =o. 1eted its route? l 25 HR. PIKUS: I'm going to object, Your Honor, !O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, -%,,,M., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

l 4624 l (]) 1 only in that I don't think we have yet established that 2 this witness has established there's any connection 3 between his role and the emergency broadcast system. 4 MS. FLEISHERs He just said that the driver -- l 5 that the dispatcher would be the one to receive the 6 message that the bus finished. And it 's in the plan, 7 Mr. Pikus. If you want me to go through it, I will. It 8 is in the plan, and I assume that those of us who are 9 here would have more knowledge of the plan than that. 10 I'll go through it if you like. 11 JUDGE CARTER: Is the witness familiar with 12 it? 13 MS. FLEISHER: All right, let's ask him that. f} 14 BY MS. FLEISHERs (Resuming) 15 Q Did you' understand my question? 16 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Not completely. Would you 17 repeat it? 18 JUDGE CARTER: Go to the question of the 19 dispatcher with regard to the broadcast system or other l 20 notification system. 21 WITNESS SPIEGEL: The dispatcher to my 22 knowledge would not have any contact with the broadcast l l 23 system. I () 24 BY MS. FLEISHERs (Resuming) 25 0 What method would be used, then, for the bus () l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4625 O 1 ariver, after he haa to1a the a1soatcher he haa 2 com p1e ted his route, for that inforaation to go to the 3 pub 11c? 4 JUDGE CARTER: If you know. l 5 WITNESS SPIEGEL: I don't know. i 6 MS. FLEISHERs That's all I have. Thank you. 7 JUDGE CARTERS Any other Intervenor ( 8 questioning? 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE CARTER: If not, Mr. Brandenburg? 11 (Pause.) 12 i l l 13 O 15 16 17 18 19 20 1 1 21 22 23 O V 24 1 l 25 O l l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4626 () 1 CROSS EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. BRANDENBURGa 3 Q Mr. Spiegel, Mrs. Fleisher asked you what you 4 would do if the plan were in ef fect and there were to be 5 a radiological accident, and you said you would proceed 6 to the EOC and proceed to implement your 7 res,ponsibilities under the plan and so forth.

However, 8

Mrs. Fleisher's questions were in terms of what would 9 you have done before May 18, that date being the date 10 that Rockland County decided to formally withdraw from 11 the radiological emergency response plan. 12 My question to you, though, is if in fact 13 there were to be an accident tomorrow, wouldn't you do O 14 just the same as you testified here? 15 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I would have to act 16 according to instructions from the Chairman of the 17 County Legisla ture. l 1 18 ,0 Do you understand the Chairman of the County 19 Legislature has stated until Rockland County has 20 prepared some substitute plan that it is~ prepared to 21 implement, that in the interim, should it be called upon 22 to do so, Rockland County would pursue the plan that 23 sits on the table before you, that is to say, the plan () 24 that was submitted by the State of New York to the NRC? 25 MS. FLEISHER: I object, I object. When did () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4627 () 1 the County Chairman say it, and where? 2 JUDGE CARTER: You may answer that. 3 WITNESS SPIEGEL: I don't und erstand that to 4 be the case. 5 BY MR. BRANDENBURGs (Resuming) 6 0 What do you understand to be the case as to 7 the procedure and plans Rockland County would follow in 8 the event there were a radiological accident tomorrow? 9 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I don 't know. I said I 10 would act according to instructions from the Chairman of 11 the County Legislature. 12 0 On page 1 of your' testimony, Mr. Spiegel, 13 approximately in the middle of the page, you are O 14 describing some private bus operators and so on in 15 Rockland County. 16 Could you identify all of the various 17 companies that you are referring to here? You mentioned 18 specifically the Clarkstown Minitrans, the Spring Valley 19 Miniservice. You mentioned two private bus operators. 20 Could you mention them ? 21 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes, the two major bus 22 operators. One is Rockland Transit Corporation which is 23 affiliated with Rockland Coaches, and the other is the () 24 Hudson Transit, which is the shortline bus system. 25 0 I understood you to say a few moments ago in O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4628 () 1 response to c.te of Mrs. Fleisher's questions that you 2 had not discussed with the operators of these companies 3 personnel situation a it might exist if the buses were 4 needed, but I an asking a slightly different question, 5 and that is whether you have discussed with these 6 iarious bus operators the amount of buses that ther 7 would be prepared to devote to an evacuation should it 8 become necessary to do so. 9 HR. THORSEN: Mr. Brandenburg, in an effort to 10 nove things along and help bring out the evidence, Mr. 11 Spiegel has been with the transit department for a 12 longer period, since April 13. It is just he was 13 appointed on April 13. O 14 Do you want to know whether his predecessor in 15 title had that authority, or are you limiting it to just 16 Mr. Spiegel himself? 17 HR. BRANDENBURG: I think I would be more 18 confortable with Mr. Spiegel's personal knowledge on 19 this. I think he indicated he had some discussions, and 20 I was just wondering if he has had discussions with any 21 of the private bus operators in Rockland County as to 22 the number of buses generally speaking. Obviously it is 23 going to differ by the time of day, one could be in the () 24 shop, that kind of thing. 25 But generally speaking, do you have some l O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4629 () 1 understanding as to the number of buses that these 2 various private bus operators would have that could be 3 devoted to the purposes of an evacuation should it I 4 become necessary? 5 WITNESS SPIEGEL: My only conversation with 6 the bus operators was as to the cost and availability of 7 the buses for the drill, at which time they indicated to 8 se they were not the least bit familiar with the 9 evacuation plan as such. I 10 BY MR. BRANDENBURG4 (Resuming) 11 Q Have you reviewed the draft Rockland County 12 radiological emergency response plan to ascertain the 13 amount of bus resources that are contemplated by that () I l 14 plan? 1 15 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) You mean the number of 16 buses required? 17 0 Yes. l 18 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No. l 19 0 To your knowledge, has Rockland County ever l 1 20 had occasion to call upon private bus operators for the l 21 use of their resources, buses, drivers ind so on, to aid l l 22 in emergency situations? 23 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Not to my knowledge. () 24 0 Now, on page 2 of your testimony, Hr. Spiegel, 25 starting with the second question, does your department ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4630 () I have a listing of all handicapped people within the 2 County of Rockland and vehicles to transport those 3 people in the event of a radiological emergency, I would ) 4 like to ask you a slightly different question, and that 5 is does, to your knowledge, does Rockland County have 6 sufficient vehicles to transport persons who are not 7 only handicapped, which is the question we are talking 8 about here, but persons who are both handicapped and 9 persons that would be transit-dependent in the event of 10 an emergency? 11 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) The question is do we have 12 sufficient vehicles in Rockland County? 13 0 In other words, you state here in your answer O 14 tha t you are uncertain about whether you would have l 15 enough vehicles for all handicapped people, and you 16 discuss the trip service and so on. 17 My question is do you have some understanding 18 of the number of persons who are both handicapped and 19 who would be dependent upon public transportation if it I l 20 became necessary to evacuate? 21 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I don't have an account for j 22 these people. 23 JUDGE PARIS: Go ahead-and answer that. I'm 24 sorry. 25 WITNESS SPIEGEL: I say I don't know how many O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4631 () 1 people would come under this category. 2 JUDGE PARIS Were you talking about the 3 number of Trips buses? It wasn't clear to me what kind 4 of buses you were talking about. 5 MR. BRANDENBURGa The answer doesn't seem to 6 be so confined, Judge Paris. Neither was my question. 7 JUDGE PARIS: Okay, go ahead. 8 MR. BRANDENBURGs I have no further 9 questions. 10 JUDGE CARTER s All right, thank you. 11 HR. PIKUS4 Thank you, Your Honor. 12 CROSS EIAMINATION 13 BY MR. PIKUS: 14 0 Mr. Spiegel, to what extent have you read the '15 Rockland County radiological emergency response plan? 16 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I read it. 17 0 In its entirety? 18 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) What I was issued I read. 19 Q May I ask what you were issued? 20 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) This is Volume 1 and also a 21 supplement which is apparently a repetition of a portion 22 of it. 23 0 could I ask, Mr. Spiegel, what the title page O 24 is on the supplement? 25 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) The supplement? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4632 (]) 1 It is Revision 1 8/1/81, and it is dated 2 August 1, 1981. 3 Q Mr. Spiegel, migh t I take a look at that for 4 just a second? 5 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Sure. 6 (Pause) 7 Q Mr. Spiegel, the supplemental document that 8 you just, referred to, is it not entitled the Rockland 9 County Radiological Emergency Response Procedure, 10 Transportation, August 1981? 11 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes. 12 0 You indicate that you have been the transit 13 coordinatornin Rockland County since April 13, 1982, is 6 14 that not correct? 15 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) That is correct. 16 0 -What were your responsibilities prior to that 17 date? 18 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) My title was Transit 19 Administrator. 20 0 What was the difference in your 21 responsibility? 22 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Well, the Transit 23 Administrator is the second in command position. The () 24 Transit Coordinator is department head. 25 Q What was your position prior to assuming the O 1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4633 () 1 role of Transit Administrator? 2 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I was Transit Marketing 3 Coordinator. 4 0 And you had been Transit Marketing Coordinator 5 since January 1977, is that correct? 6 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) That is correct. 7 Q Hr. Spiegel, as Transit Marketing Coo rdina tor, 8 first I would ask were you at all familiar with any 9 radiological emergency response plan for Indian Point? 10 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) In that capacity? 11 0 Yes. 12 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No. i 13 0 As Transit Administrator, were you f amiliar O 14 with the radiological emergency response plan for Indian 15 Point? 16 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes. 17 0 To what extent were you familiar with the 18 pla n? 19 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I first became involved 20 with the plan on February 17. 21 0 Of 19817 22 A (WITN ESS SPIEGEL) Of '81, yes -- no, of '82, 23 which was the walkthrough of the plan prior to the O 24 dreft. 25 0 Could you tell us what this walkthrough O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 L

l l 4634 l () 1 entailed? 2 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) We met at the operations 3 center and went through the material as to people 's I 4 responsibilities in the event of having to implement the 5 plan. j 6 0 Who met at the emergency operations center? l 7 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) All of the people involved 8 :with responsibilities under the plan, different l l 9 departments that were involved. 10 0 By departments, you are referring to 11 departments of the Rockland County-government. 12 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Right, the Lieutenant 13 Governor and others. ( l 14 0 Who were the others? 15 JUDGE CARTERS Mr. Pikus, do we have to go 16 through the walkthrough and then the drill? I don't 17 know the purpose. j 18 JUDGE PARIS: We have heard who was in the EOC 19 several times. 20 MR. PIKUS: I'm trying to get an idea of the 21 witness' familiarity with the plan so I~can determine 22.whether or not I should ask him any additional 23 questions. () 24 JUDGE CARTER: Well, ask him the question. 25 How he became familiar is something we don 't have to go (2) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4635 () 1 into if he can answer the question. 2 BY MR. PIKUS (Resuming) 3 Q Mr. Spiegel, in what capacity did you act on 4 this February walkthrough? 5 JUDGE CARTERS Mr. Pikus, I don't know what 6 the walkthrough has to do with this. 7 M9. PIKUS: Well, I believe what the witness 8 is testifying about is the training session for the 9 emergency plan, and I would like to know what transpired 10 in that training session. I think it bears directly on 11 what the witness would do if there were a radiological 12 emergency today. 13 JUDGE CARTER: But if that is so, we would O 14 have to take every person who was there and take then 15 through it in order to evaluate the plan. 16 Answer the last question. 17 WITNESS SPIEGELS Could you repeat it? 18 NR. PIKUSs Yes. 19 BY HR. PIKUS (Resuming) 20 Q I believe the question was what were your 21 responsibilities during the walkthrough~in the emergency 22 operations center in February? 23 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I participated with the () 24 then Transit Coordinator in the complete walkthrough l 25 procedure. My position was that if the then Transit O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 _ _ _.. _ _ _ _ _ ~

4636 () 1 Coordinator was unavailable at the time, I would be the 2 one who would take over. 3 Q So then you worked with the Transit 4 Coordinator at that time actually going through the i 5 procedures that you would go through if there were a t l 6 radiological emergency. i 7 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) That's right. j 8 Q So I presume at that time you had the lists of 9 buses and bus operators available whom you would contact l 10 during an emergency. 11 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Right. 12 0 So then you do have at your disposal the 13 information that would be necessary in order to actuate j t 14 your responsibilities under the Rockland County 15 radiological emergency response plan. 16 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I do no t. 17 Q Could you explain to me how you had that 18 information in February and why you no longer have it 19 today? 20 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) It is not that I no longer 21 have it today. In February, when I first saw the list 22 of bus operators and their telephone numbers which I 23 would have to use to contact them, I saw that some of i l () 24 the operators were left off that list, and at the time, 25 when I contacted them to price buses for the drill, I O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4637 () 1 updated the list and the phone numbers so that I would 2 have the adequate information if I needed it. The first 3 list was lacking quite a bit. 4 0 So you now have an updated list. 5 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) That's right. 6 Q Do you know -- I withdraw that. 7 What was the name of your predecessor? 8 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) James Whittaker. 9 Q Do you know whether he participated in the to development of the radiological emergency response 11 plan? 12 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No, I do not know. 13 0 Nr. Spiegel, do you know what percentage of (2) 14 the population of the Rockland County portion of the 15 emergency planning zone has their own automobiles? 16 A ( WITNESS SPIEGEL) No. 17 0 Do you have any estimate as to what percentage 18 of Rockland County residents within the emergency 19 planning zone would need some form of mass transit 20 during a radiological emergency? 21 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) You say what percentage? 22 0 The percen tage. 23 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) No. () 24 Q I believe you testified a few moments ago that 25 you had read Volume 1 of the Rockland County plan, along () ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4638 O with tae==a te eat whica ae 1= wita orecedure - is ta

2 not correct?

3 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Right. 4 Q Is your department at all responsible for the 5 actual evacuation of any handicapped people? 6 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) We would be in the event 7 that Trips buses are used for the evacuation. 8 0 But the Trips buses are the extent to which 9 your department would actually provide transportation 10 resources? 11 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) That is correct. 12 0 Are you aware whether there are other 13 provisions in the plan for providing transportation to O 14 handicapped people? 15 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) It depends on their 16 handicap. There are ambulance services available. 17 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether the 18 State of New York is providing training for persons who 19 are identified to rarticipate in any radiological 20 emergency response? I 21 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I have not been notified of 22 any training. 23 HR. PIKUS: I believe that concludes my O 24 cross. 25 Thank you, Mr. Spiegel. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024(202) 554 2345

4639 O 1 JUDGE CARTERS nr. nesse11? nr. ncGurren? 2 HR. nASSELL: Staff has no questions. 3 JUDGE CARTERS Dr. Paris? 4 BOARD EXAMINATION 5 BY JUDGE PARISs 6 Q Mr. Spiegel, you testified that you have a 7 list of the bus operators that you would call in the 8 event a radiological emergency occurred in order to get 9 buses for the bus routes given in the response plan. 10 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) That is correct. 11 0 Do you know how many buses the response plan 12 ca11s for? 13 A (VITNESS SPIEGEL) No. O 14 0 Then I take it you do not know whether the 15 total number of buses you could call on would be 16 sufficient. 17 A ( WITNESS SPIEGEL) No, I don't know. 18 Q Has that been determined -- was that 19 determined by the people that prepared the response 20 plan, do you know, or by anyone else? 21 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) The people"who prepared the 22 response plan estimate the particular number of buses I 23 per route. I don't know the total, and I don't know if ~ 24 ve have that many buses. 25 MR. CZAJAs Judge, I don't want to testify. l O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4640 () 1 Maybe Ms. Versenyi would nod her head on this one, too. 2 The way they prepared their plan was they estimated a 3 hypothetical number of buses and proceeded there. I 4 don't think that was the way. I think they determined 5 the number of buses available and then calculated the 6 evacuation time, given that number of buses. 7 JUDGE PARIS: Are you going to give us some 8 testimony on this later on? 9 NR. CZAJA: Yes. 10 JUDGE PARISa I have no further questions. 11 Thank you, Mr. Spiegel. 12 BY JUDGE CARTER: 13 0 Mr. Spiegel, in the brochure that has been O 14 identified as F0E 1 and all of the other brochures, 15 there is a section on page 13 called " Bus Pickup 16 Points." It reads buses would be available for people 17 who are not able to arrange a ride by automobile. Buses l 18 would take these individuals to a reception center. 19 Are you f amiliar with that? 20 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes. 21 0 Do you have any information as to how that is 22 to be implemented? 23 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) In the event of the () 24 evacuation of a zone, there is a designated bus operator 25 who would provide buses for that zone. I would contact (:) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4641 1 his first to be on standby and when instructed to send 2 the buses out -- and there are specified routes for 3 those buses and pickup points. 4 0 Who has made the arrangements for that bus 5 operator to provide that he shall carry out that l 6 mission? l 7 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) To my knowledge, no one 8 has, sir. 9 0 Well, what leads you to say that a bus 10 operator would arrange to go to those points? 11 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I am just reading what the [ 12 plan says. 13 0 So as far as you are concerned, the bus pickup O 14 points and the buses is purely theoretical. 15 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Yes, sir. 16 Q Have you talked to any of these bus operators 17 about this matter? 18 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Not at this point. The 19 only time I talked with them was to get the costs for 20 providing the buses for the drill, at which time I got 21 an update of telephone numbers, home nu~mbers, things of 22 that sort of principals which were not included, and I 23 found in the discussion that none of the bus companies 24 that I had operated had been contacted. They told me '25 this when I spoke to them. O l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4642 1 Q When did these discussions take place? 2 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) It was shortly after the 3 Feb rua ry 17 meeting when I first got the list of. phone 4 numbers. 5 Q Well, isn't it possible since February that 6 these arrangements would have been made? 7 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) Possible, but not to my 8 knowledge. 9 BY JUDGE PARIS 4 (Resuming) 10 Q Did you participate in the March 3 exercise? 11 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) I did. 12 0 Did you determine at that time whether any of 13 the bus operators had been informed that they vere O 14 supposed to participate? 15 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) The only one to my 18 knowledge who had been informed at that time was the one 17 operator who provided the buses for the drill. 18 Q Was he the only one you talked to ? 19 A (WITNESS SPIEGEL) At that times, yes. 20 JUDGE CARTER: Anything further of this ~ 21 witness? 22 HR. THORSENs No, Judge. 23 I do apologize for putting on a witness who 24 was incapable of answering all the questions, but 25 personnel turnover is one of the problems we suffer,

O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

i 4643 () 1 which is also a real problem with the plan. 2 JUDGE CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Spiegel. 3 Do you have another witness? 4 HR. THORSENs Judge, I have no other witnesses 5 this afternoon. 6 JUDGE CARTER: Mr. Brandenburg, you had 7 something you wanted to raise? 8 HR. BRANDENBURGs Yes, Judge. Thank'you very 9 much. 10 On Bonday during the course of our examination 11 we stumbled upon some documents that had been prepared 12 under Mr. Gdanski's request, and thanks to Mr. Thorsen's 13 good offices, those were produced for us during the O 14 course of the week, and I think at least one of them was 15 entered into evidence in this record, and I think that 16 was a fruitful exercise. But at that time the Board 17 expressed some desire that these types of requests 18 should be forthcoming in advance of the witnesses I 19 appearing before us and of course we are attempting to 20 develop more workable procedures as we go along. 21 In the course of your remarks on Monday I l 22 believe, Mr. Chairman, you suggested that even a 23 subpoena might be appropriate in order to accomplish ( 24 this purpose. 26 As our agenda presently stands, I understand i l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4644 () 1 that the Westchester County witnesses will be appearing 2 before us in the week of August 2. It occurs.to me that 3 there are a substantial number of documents that may be [} 4 in the possession of one or more of the Westchester 5 County witnesses. I see that Ms. Veter is with us this 6 afternoon. She has rejoined us but I don't think she 7 has been here since Monday, but at this time I would 8 lik e to, through you, Mr. Chairman, make some sort of 9 arrangements whereby we can request and receive in 10 advance of the appearance of the Westchester County 11 witnesses some documents that will bear upon and that 12 were doubtless used in the preparation of their 13 testimony. I would be prepared to discuss this with Ms. O 14 Vetere this afternoon after we break, and if we can do 15 this, we vill not have to impose ourselves further upon 16 the Board. 17 Otherwise I would at this time like to ask 18 that some arrangements be made to follow up on Your 19 Honor's suggestion on Monday, and that is to obtain a 20 subpoena so that the Westchester County documents may be 21 made available to us prior to the commehcement of cross 22 examination of their witnesses on the second of August. 23 JUDGE CARTER I think you should discuss it 24 with Ms. Vetere. 25 I suppose you are referring to the Westchester O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4645 ( 1 County officials. MR. BRANDENBURGs Yes, I am. 2 (]) 3 HS. VETERE: I would be happy to discuss it 4 with him and look over the list of documents. 5 JUDGE CARTER: Anything else? 6 .MR. BRANDENBURG What subpoena procedures? 7 JUDG'E CARTER: Submit the subpoena. We will l 8 issue the subpoane. 9 HR. BRANDENBURGs I an having a little 10 difficulty imagining how that will be done in the week 11 off because we will not all be together prior to the 12 time the Westchester County witnesses are to appear. l l 13 JUDGE CARTERS Well, you know tha t you ca n l ) 14 send them either to the Board or to my own office in the 15 way that other documents have been served. That is the 16 way it has to be done. l 17 JUDGE PARIS: Do you have the NRC subpoena l 18 forms available to you? 19 JUDGE CARTER s M rs. Fleisher will show you how l l 20 to do it. 21 MS. FLEISHER: Your Honor, whbn they saw the l 22 subpoena, they melted. 23 May I as a question? 24 After the week of the second, is there any 25 program for where and when? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

) 4646 () 1 JUDGE CARTER: Our plans are generally every 2 other, week. The week of the second we would be at 3 Westchester, and then as I understand it, this room {} 4 would become available again the week of th e 16 th. The 5 New York City witnesses I understand will not be 6 available until September, if we are still holding 7 hearings in September. 8 So we will just go a couple of weeks at a time 9 and see how we go. 10 Mr. Blum? 11 MB. BLUM: I wanted to apprise the Board that 12 UCS has one witness on Question 6, the economics issue, 13 we were planning to present, and I dont know whether we O 14 should formally move to be made a contributing 15 Intervenor under those contentions. I don't think we 16 a re right now because I don't have the contentions in 17 front of me. 1E MR. LEVIN: We may have an objection, Your 19 Honor. I was not aware -- is this UCS-NYPIRG or just 20 UCS we are talking about? 21 MR. BLUM: UCS-NYPIRG. 22 MR. LEVIN: I-was not aware that UCS-NYPIRG 23 was intending to present any witnesses on this issue. 24 JUDGE PARIS: Is UCS-NYPIRG a contributing 25 Intervenor on 26? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 4*7 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4647 O i NR. 8tUM. on ouestion e, and that is 2 possible, but I wanted to double check it, if we are 3 not, to give some notice. 4 MR. LEVIN: Well, if they are he doesn't need 5 to ask permission. 6 MR. BLUMa Well, excuse me, we are. So -- 7 JUDGE PARIS: Would you like to withdraw 8 that? 9 MR. BLUM: Strike everything I-said. 10 JUDGE CARTER: You are a contributing 11 Intervenor on 6.3 which reads "Considering the savings 12 in operating expense which would result from shutting 13 down Indian Point Units 2 and 3 and allow for the ways O 14 in which cogeneration and conservation can mitigate the 15 cost of replacement power, the net costs of shutdown are 16 smalls in fact, they are smaller than previous studies 17 by UCS, GAO or Rand suggested and are entirely 18 a cce p tab le. " 19 Is that the contention as to which the witness 20 will appear? 21 I forget the da te for the filino of 22 testimony. 23 MR. KAPLANs Tenth of August. 24 ER. PIKUS: Your Honor? 25 JUDGE CARTER: Mr. Pikus? O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4648 I () 1 MR. PIKUSs Could I just confirm that the 2 Westchester witnesses are going to appear in the order 3 that they were listed, in the order of the document that () 4 we were served on Monday. Is that not right? 5 MS. VETEREs To the best of my knowledge. 6 JUDGE CARTERS Could you tell us what the 7 order is ? 8 HS. VETERE: Westchester County's proposed 9 order of witnesses? 10 MR. THORSENs While Ms. Vetere is looking for 11 the document -- 12 JUDGE CARTER: Well, is this the one that Mr. 13 McGurren has handed us, dated July 20, 1982? O 14 MS. VETEREs Tes, that is it. 15 JUDGE CARTERS It reads: No. 1, Honorable 16 Alfred E. Del Bello; 2, Raymond S. Jurkovski, 17 J-u-r-k-o-v-s-k-is Daniel P. Guido, G-u-i-d-o; Dr. Anita 18 S. Cu rra n, C-u-r-r-a-n; Anthony R. Harasco, 19 M-a-r-a-s-c-o; Frank C. Bohland er, B-o-h-1-a-n-d -e-r ; 20 Michael Kaminski, K-a-m-i-n-s-k-is Charles W. Bates, 21 B-a-t-e-s; Rilliam G. Borg hard, B-o-r-g-h-a -r-d. 22 MS. VETEREs We would not commence with 23 Michael Kaminski and Charles Bates. They will be on 24 ' vacation that week, and they will be able to testify on 25 August 16 and 17. O ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4649 O i JUDGE CARTER. rhank you. 2 HR. PIKUS: Your Honor, might I also ask, 3 since we will be back in our offices next week, who the 4 Board would entertain as witnesses, assuming we are able 5 to get through all nine of these Westchester County 6 witnesses next week? 7 JUDGE CARTERS Mr. Pikus, you.say the nicest 8 things. 9 HR. PIKUS: It just helps, Judge. 10 JUDGE CARTER: It is a nice change of pace. 11 ES. FLEISHERs Your Honor, we had the man from 12 Orange, and Rockland asked whether they could come in 13 this week. Could he come on the 5th of August? And I 14 think you told him to wait. But that might be -- 15 JUDGE CARTER: All right, what is his name? 16 MS. FLEISHER: Frank Fisher. 17 JUDGE CARTERS Of Orange and Rockland? 18 MS. FLEISHER: Yes, he used to work for Con 19 Ed. 20 JUDGE CARTER: All right. Do you think that 21 will be enough? l 22 As we go along we will just have to play it by 23 ear. 24 Mr. Levin. 25 MR. LEVINs Your Honor, did I hear anyone say i { ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4650 ~ 1 something? I thought I heard one of the judges say 2 something about the time for filing testimony on 3 Question 6. 4 JUDGE CARTERa Mr. Kaplan said August 10.vas 5 the dAte for filing testimony on Question 6. 6 MR. LEVIN I just wanted to make sure there 7 was no amendment to that. I didn't hear it clearly. 8 MR. KAPLANs Is that your recollection? 9 MR. LEVINs Yu are not a judge, Mr. Kaplan. I 10 apologize. 11 JUDGE CARTER: Not yet. 12 All right. Is there nothing further? 13 Mr. Thorsen? O 14 MR. THORSEN4 Just a housekeeping matter. I 15 was asked to submit some 200 signatures in addition to 16 the petitions that were submitted by Ms. Blua this i 17 morning, and also one of'the Intervenors had asked for l 18 something f roan. Don McGuire regarding traffic control l l 19 devices. l 20 JUDGE CARTER: Mr. Hassell raises a very good ~ 21 question. 22 What time do we convene on Monday, August 2, 23 and out of consideration, one of my favorite jokes was 24 when is your vacation? Well, it is the first two hours 25 in August. Your vacation is the first for hours in O ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4651 0 Auou t. we 111 convene at 2,00 en Mondar, nuou t 2 2. 3 If there is nothing further, the hearing is 4 adjourned. 5 (Whereupon, at 2a05 o' clock p.m., the hearing 8 in the above-entitled matter recessed, to reconvene at 7 2:00 o' clock p.m., Monday, August 2, 1982.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 O 15 i 16 17 l j 18 .i 19 20 i i j 21 22 23

O 24 i

25 !O I l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

NUC2AR REGUI.ATORY Comi SSICN 'r-{ This is to certify that the attached preceedings 'cefore the ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD m f s-in the Tatter cf: CONSOLIDATED EDISON COMPANY OF NEW YORK (Indian Point Unit 2) POWER AUTHORITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK C[ndian Point Unit 3) Date of Proceeding: Juiv 23, 1982 Docket Nuc:ber: 50-247 & 50-286 Flace of Freceeding: New city, New York wore held as herein appears, and that this is the crifinal trasse.-1; thcrecf for the file of the Coc:::1ssice., Alfred H. Ward Official Reporter (Typed) O _$Nhb Official-Repcrter (Signature) j i l l ~. t

W T

l Q .}}

ML20058D054

Text

x the itae=

Navigation menu

Search