ML20054J790

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Commission Determination Releasing Portions of Transcript of Commission 820113 Meeting in Washington,Dc.Pp 1-47
ML20054J790
Person / Time
Site: Diablo Canyon  Pacific Gas & Electric icon.png
Issue date: 06/21/1982
From: Chilk S
NRC OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY (SECY)
To:
References
REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8206290564
Download: ML20054J790 (51)
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{{#Wiki_filter:[ 'o, UNITED STATES fp( [ NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION g g g WASHIN GTON, D.C. 20555 / June 21, 1982 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY MEMORANDUM FOR: CHIEF, Public Document Ro FROM: SAMUEL J. CHILK, Secretaryv A

SUBJECT:

Commission Determination @ tement Regarding the Transcript of: Discussioh of Pending Adjudicatory Matter, held on Wednesday, January 13, 1982 Attached is the Commission Determination Statement.for the subject closed Commission meeting and corresponding transcript which is being released in part to the public. This document is forwarded to you for formal placement in the Public Document Room pursuant to 10 CFR Part 9. Two copies are provided for your convenience. Attachments: As stated cc: DCS-016 Phillips i 9 e D 8206290564 820621 PDR 10CFR l PT9.7 PDR l

[p2Ktgo o UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION n h WASHIN OTON, D.C. 20555 a %,***++/ June 21, 1982 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY C0MMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISCLOSURE UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE ACT OF: Transcript of Discussion of Pending Adjudicatory Matter Wednesday, January 13, 1982 Pursuant to 10 CFR 9.108(c) and 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10), a majority of the Commission consisting of Chairman Palladino and Commissioners Gilinsky and Ahearne determined that the attached portions of the subject transcript should be released to the public. Commissioner Roberts would have released the transcript in its entirety. Commissioner Asselstine did not participate in this determination. The remaining portions of the transcript are being withheld from public disclosure pursuant to 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) as noted below: Page/Line through Page/Line Exemption 2/22 2/23 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 3/07 3/16 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 3/22 4/08 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 4/13 4/25 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 8/21 8/22 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 8/24 11/07 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 13/17 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 12/10 14/07 14/07 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 14/11 14/15 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) l 26/20 27/04 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) i 27/08 27/10 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 33/18 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 33/06 33/19 34/12 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 35/06 36/20 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 37/16 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 37/15 37/25 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 37/23 38/01 38/20 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 41/23 42/ 01 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 44/19 45/12 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) 45/19 46/01 10 CFR 9.104(a)(10) ./ \\ amuel J. 'hil k Se retary of thei Commission

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a, 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA l 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 4 5 DISCUSSION OF PENDING ADJUDICATORY MATTEB 6 7 8 CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTION 10 9 10 11 Nuclear Begulatory Commission Room 1130 12 1717 H Street, N.. W. Washington, D. C. 13 Wednesday, January 13,.1982 3 14 S/ 15 The Commission met in closed session at 16 2 4 0 5 p. m. 17 BEFORE: 18 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 19 PETER BRADFORD, Commissioner JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner 20 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 21 STAFF PRESENT: 22 S. CHILK L. BICKWIT 23 F. REMICK J. FITZGERALD Pt 24 E. ABBOTT ] 25 ALDERSoN REPCRTING. COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASH!NGToN. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

i 2 .r EE9CEED1ES5 Co s % 2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO The ::: tin; vill please come 3 to order. 4 Today we vill have a discussion of a pending 5 adjudicatory matter that I believe relates to Diablo 6 Canyon. Then if we have time and the Commission is so 54AM 7 disposed we might have a rt:ff report by OGC on the 6 8 pfychological stresses Eff ecting THI-1. ,'Why don't se start with the first item and then 9 r 10 see how it goes. i 11 HR. BICKWIT: This matter is something we thought 12 might be useful for a meeting. As I au sure all of.you l 13 know, we have been getting conflicting signals from various h 14 offices as to how to proceed with this investigation or 15 inquiry, depending on how you characterize it. 16 We have not proceeded as a result and we have been 17 avalting this meeting in hopes of -being able to resolve 18 differences among Commission Offices. 19 What you have got here is a unique situation in 20 that you want to do some kind of inquiry or investigation. 21 At the same tine you have got a pending adjudication and the 22 inquiry or investigation has adjudicatory purposes. 23 1 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARKE: You will at some point 25 discuss where that line comes. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2C2) 554-2345

3 1 ER. BICKWIT: Yes. Let ne turn to that. What I upY 2 ove4rt to do is go through one option which we would put on 3 the table to see how it sits and then if there is a majority 4 for modifying it we vill do that. But I just want to get 5 the broad outlines of it and then Jim can go into some of 6 the specifics. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 a 15 16 17 Once they have packaged all this information 18 together they would then communicate it to the Commission. l 19 A t that point the Commission would decide whether to go 20 f urther, whether to abandon the effort there and whether.to j 21 reach conclusions. I 22 23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

4 e s s 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Our view is that the best -way to proceed is to 10 have that service of documents and report take place after and af ter it. has 11 the Commission hears what Jim has to say 12 reached either a decision or a tentative decision. 13 CHAIRHAN PALIADIN04 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 y 23 1 24 . R 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRG NIA AVE. S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

e 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEJ Iou said the report plus 2 documents. What documents? 3 MR. BICKWIT Nov let me get into what we would 4 have him put together and convey. 5 What we vould suggest is that he speak to the 6 Cloud employee that Vic spoke to, I don't know his name, and 7 to Cloud himself and that he look at relevant documents 8 involving Newmark employment with PG EE if there are any such 9 documents. Those documents, if there are any, would be 10 f ound with TGCE and with the remnants of Newmark and 11 Associates which may be difficult to find. 12 COHEISSIONER ROBERTS 4 At the risk of being 13 simplistic could I hear from Commissioner Gilinsky what we ff 14 are looking into? All I have is second and third hearsay, 15 Would iou tell us the cause of this? I would like to know. 16 COHNISSIONER GILINSKI4 I -am glad you asked. 17 Claughter.) 18 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKT This whole thing is 19 getting completely out of control. 20 COREISSIONER ROBERTS 4 ludicrous. 21 COEMISSIONER GILINSKY4 I went to talk to Cloud 22 just to get an idea of what his -ef fort was like. After we 23 had finished discussing his reverification program and so on 24 he asked me to meet some of his employees just to shake p3 25 hands and make them feel like it is an important thing they ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC. _400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON._D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

6 1 are doing and so on. I said sure. k 2 So I want back into the offices and shooknvith one 3 and another of these and one of his key people had a b 4 blackboard and they showed me they had written down a kind 5 of diagram of all the groups that had contributed to the 6 design and in the progress of that design. This is to. help 7 them get on top of the reverification program. Blumc W 8 They had veLue-i-tretrs associates and various other '9 contractors whose names you have seen on various documents. 10 They were each in a circle with an arrow leading into PGT.I ~ 11 and they also had Newmark. I was s little surprised to see 12 that and I said, wait a minute, I thought he was working f or 13 us reviewing the design rather than. contributing to the h ~ 14 design. wkest 15 The guy wh+ office this was who had put this thing 16 together smiled and said, well, it is unclear but there is 17 some suggestion that he had contrihnted to it, too. 18 Incidentally, Ed I think is here. Do you have 19 anything to add to that? 20 MR. ABBOTT 4 No. What he said is true. 21 CHAIRMAN PAllADINO: He said what? 22 MR. ABBOTT: I have nothing to add. What he sa ys 23 is true. 24 COEMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, it took me aback a 25 Ifttle bit and we taked about it later ourselves. I felt it ALDERSON REPORTING CoWPANY.INC, 400 MRG!N!A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

7 1 was just something one needs to check into. It may be 2 nothing or it may be something. 3 As th ey explained to ne, they had gone through the 4 PGCE records and come up vith this list. Now I have no idea ~ 5 wha t lies behind that. ~ 6 What I would have done rather than go through NRC 7 records as a first step is simply say why did you put that ~ 8 circle up on the board. Now it may simply be someone*s f suggestion or it may be because his name appears in e 10 document and, you know, there is some reason to think.that 11 he actually had a hand in the design. 12 CHAIREAN PALLADINO: You didn't ask that question? 13 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY: No, I didn't sursue it. hy M CHAIRMAN PALLADINO4 Ent.you did.ask him why -vas 15 the name up there? 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI4 Yes. So I recarded it as ( 17 something which --- 18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO It is sort of er parte in l 19 itself. 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI4 .It may well-be. 21 (Laughter.) 22 COMEISSIONER GILINSKY I have bared my soul here. 23 (Laughter.) gy 24 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKI4 I felt'it was something 25 tha t I just couldn't let pass. I felt it wee raised enouch ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C.20024 (202) 554 2386

8 ) 1 of a question in my mind that I felt it to be something that 2 needed to be cleared up. s 3 CHAIRM AN P ALLADIN04 Then I gather we asked OGC to 4 look and see what we had in our own documentation. ~ 5 COMEISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, I thought actually 6 they were going to go and ask Cloud. Then I discovered that 7 in f act they had gone to Bethesda I gather. 8 MR. BICKWIT: There was a that we not speak 9 to Cloud. 10 COMEISSIONER GIIINSKY: Well, at any rate, that is 11 where we are. 12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: But'it inight be possible that h 14 somewhere in our contracts he disclosed that ~he worked for 15 TGtE. 16 COEMISSIONER GIIINSKY: .That is a possibility, 17 right. He might well have. 18 CHAIRHAN PALIADINO: I was wondering what OGC 19 found so f ar. 20 ER. BICKWIT: We had a group look at those records 21 and what we found is basically inconclusive. 22 23 (Laughter.) y 24 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 That I don't understand. 3 15 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (*J2) 554-2345

l s 1 2 ~ 3 w. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 17 h 14 il 1t 17 - 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 l 25 ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY. INC, _ _ _. _ _... _ _ 400_ VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 864-2346., _, _ _. _ _ _ _

10 1 2 3 e 4 5 6 7 8 g 10 11 12 13 - 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345

11 1 1 2 3 4 s. 5 6 7 8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: But we are trying to see 9 whether our consultant had been in conflict of interen. 10 MR. BICKWIT: Right. 11 COMEISSIONER ROBERTS 4 This is different from. what 12 Peter was getting ready to say. 13 ER. BICKWIT. Well, in fact what I did say was h 14 vrong. As Victor has point out, when I.said Cloud I meant 15 to say Newmark. 16 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: The staff witness. 17 COMEISSIONER BRADFORD4 Yes. 18 MR. BICKWITs Tes. Now if your purpose is simply i 19 to find out whether the conflict of interest regulations 20 have been violated and whether to take some enforcement i 21 action with regard to those regulations against anyone who 22 might be around to take it 23 (Laughter.) = 24 COE5ISSIONER GILINSKY4 I want to add one point to h 25 my earlier remarks. If the Commissioners want me to I will ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20C24 (202) 554-2345

12 1 vrite all this out and send it around and so on. 2 The reason I hesitated was not because of any 3 uncertainty but because I felt there is no need to draq 4 Newmark 's name around this var if in fact there is some 5 simple explanation or there is nothing there. You know,.you 6 really would be making a f airly serious charge. At the.same 7 time I felt there was enough there so that one had to look 8 into it. 8 CH AIRH AN P A17.ADINO: Tes,.I agree. 10 ER. BICKWIT4 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 l l 21 22 23 i 24 c:, l 25 l t ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,1NC,

  • 00 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

13 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 l 15 i l 16 17 18 CHAIREAN PALIADINO: Is this why you are 19 suggesting that we follow the option you outlined? 20 ER. RICKWIT: I am saying.that was inconclusive. 21 The undority wanted us to look at these reccrds.ldelookddbm-22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Could I ask you just a 23 question about those records. 24 ER. BICKWIT: Sure. l 25 CHAIREAN PALLADINO: Did you look at the NRC l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, I l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

14 contracthtall? 1 2 MR. BICKWIT: Yes. 3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: And the ASLB and ACES 4 consultants to see if there is anything? 5 MR. BICKWIT No. 6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I was wondering about that. 7 could that le 8 looked at as part Jim Fitzgerald's task? 9 MR. BICKWIT: Sure. Ultimately you will -know. it 10 all under this approach. 11 COMMISSIONER ABEARNE: 12 13 14 15 16 MR. BICKWIT4 What we vould intend to have done is 17 for him to take oral interviews and then have then 18 initialed, write them up and have them initialed. 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE2 Since you are now down a 20 path of what you see going out to the parties and coming 21 back, why isn't it better to put the questions in wri*dna l l 22 and receive the ansvers in writing? 23 MR. BICKWIT: At this point? 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 Well, no, it is not so much l 25 a t this point. You have already said you see the next step l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASNINGToN, D.C. 20024 (200 554-2346

15 1 as being one which will lead to sending it out to the 2 parties and getting comments So why isn't appropriate to 3 put it in writing? O COMMISSIONER HOBERTSs Are we going to pick up 4-5 "Inside NRC" in the next day or so and find out what is & happening? 7 HR. BICKWIT: This is one of the judgment calls-8 you have to make.- e 9 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE: But if you would., put it in 10 vriting then you would know what questions were asked and-11 you: vould know what ansvers were given. An oral interview 12 still has some weaknesses in the information transmittal. 13 MR. BICKWIT: There is no problem with patting it I would not put it out to the parties now as I' h 14' in writingw 15 mentioned to you. 16 COMMISSIONER-AREARNE:. No, I didn 't say that. I 17 said since you have already said this final' thing is going 18 to have to be going out I don't understand why it isn't 19 better; so averybody then vill know everything that 20 transpired. Here are the questions-that were asked and.here 21 a re the ansvers that were given. 22 MR. BICKWIT I see, and never have a face-to-face 23 interview? 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I don't know whether O V 25 or not. I was just trying to think th rough since you are ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

96 1 going to go out. I know if I were receiving some 2 inf ormation on which to provide comments and I got something 3 vritten up as to here is the result of this conversation bi 4 with initials at the bottom I would not be as satisfied as I 5 would be if I had here are the questions that were asked and 6 here are the ansvers that were given. 7 HR. BICKWIT Well, it is just a question of 8 investigative technique. I think you are much 1aore.likely 9 to get illuminating answers if you go knock on a door and 10 sit down with somebody and talk it through with them than if 11 you write a letter and say here are. Jay questions and give 12 them a substantial period of time to reflect on the ansvers. 13 CHAIREAN PALLADINO: By the procedure you Tropose h 14 to follow you really are opening 'it up. 15 COHNISSIONER GIIINSKI: Yes, that surprises ne a 16 little bit. 17 CHAIREAN PALLADINO: We are not trying to 18 determine the magnitude of the problem before ve open it up. 19 HR. BICKWIT: No, I would want to determine the l 20 magnitude of the problem before ve open it up. 21 CHAIRBAN PALIADINO: As soon as he reports to us l l 22 you said we have to give$ it to the. parties. 23 HE. BICKEIT At that point we vill have some Is=- 24 determination of the magnitude of the problem. We vill 25 either have reached a judgment that there is nothing to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, tNC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

37 1 vorry about in which case --- 2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I was worried about this. 3 MR. BICKWIT: But I think there is a big 4 difference. There is a big difference in putting out to the 5 parties, I was worried about this but there is nothing to it 6 than to do what I think Tom was suggesting, which is to put 7 it out right now, we are vorried. 8 COBEISSIONER ROBERTSz We aren't worried. We just i l 9 vant to get some information. 10 ER. BICKWITs We want to get some information.and, 11 you know, we wouldn 't be wanting to get it if we weren't 12 worried. 13 COMMISSIONER BOBERTS4 I am not prepared to say I i(h 14 am vorried. I can't speak for anybody-else. We have l 15 som ethin'g we want investigated. 16 HR. BICKWIT: Do you doubt you have a different 17 news story if what you put out is just a series of questions 18 than if you ultimately put out a series of questions, the 19 ansvers to them and a determination that there is no 20 problem? I think you have a very different news story. l 21 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD As a practical matter I 22 happen to think that Len is right about the fact that a 23 straightforward oral investigation or at least a 24 straightforward investigation, including oral contact, is 25 better. But as a practical matter the first time someone ALDERSoN REPORTING CoWPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2C2) 554-2345 \\

18 1 approaches either Cloud or PGCE or what is left of Newmark' 2 Associates there is going to be a pretty substantial 3 community that is going to know about it within I would say \\d" -4 about half an hour. 5 ER. BICKWIT: There is no doubt that there is a 6 risk that it will get out. 7 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I thought that was a 8 certainty. 9 MR. BICKWIT: Well, I au mot sure that it is 10 certain prior to the time that we.would have an assessment 11 of the situation. I think that is at very valuable thing to 12 give up, having an assessment of this situation bef ore it t 13 gets to the media. lh} 14 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD: It is also I think a more 15 sensible way to conduct an investigation. 16 ER. BICKWITs That is true. There is also that. 17 I mean if we put it out now, you know, the element of 18 surprise in the investigation may be lost which is the 19 reason I would not want to send questions in writin g. 20 These are all judgment calls and you can go this 21 other way. The reason we wanted this meeting'is we would 22 like you to make those calls. 23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I think the point is not d 24 so much surprise, I don't think a lot is going to hinge on 25 tha t, so much as it is the element of sobriety as well. I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINlA AVE, S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 2OO24p) 554-2345

19 1 mean, all of the sudden the investigation is likely to 2 become something of a three-ring circus. The' opportunity 3 just to conduct straightf orward interviews and 4 straightforward requests for documents is likely to be 5 tangled up in the adjudicatory proceeding and requests of 6 various parties to sit in on the interviews. The procedure 7 becomes a lot more complicated. 8 I don 't think a lot hinges on surprise here. I 9 hope it doesn't because., as I say, I think the first contact 10 is going to be the last one in which there is an element of 11 surprise anyway. 12 COMMISSIONER AHEABWEs. This element of surprise, 13 it almost sounds as though you expect that in a cupboard m 14 there they have got some Newmark designed ansvers to liBC p. 15 questions and that if Fitz leaps into the office --- 16 (laughter.) 17 CDEMISSIONER ~BRADT9RD: liell, there is one 18 blackboard. 19 (laughter.) 20 ER. BICKWIT4 Something is lost if. you let the 21 person who is interviewed reflect about his answer for a 22 period of time. M ma ncr MYS

  • 23 C. SE"!C" But the first interview is the only b

24 one that someone is not going to be able to reflect upon. ST 25 MR. BICKWIT Well, we contemplate really only two ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON. D.C.20024 (202) 564-2345

20 1 int er vie ws, one with Cloud and one with the associate that 2 Vic spoke to. Ihose are the only interviews we contemplate. 3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: How about PGEE7 4 MR. BICKEITs No. 5 CHAIRMAN PAllADINO: Why not? TGEE may have hired 6 him as a consultant. 7 HR. BICKWITs Ultimately ve may want to go there, 8 but what we thought the Commission would te happiest with is 9 one discrete bite here and then back to the Commission and ~ 10 then we decide whether we want to open this up into 11 something 12 COMEISSIONER AREARKE: Who is going to'be doing 13 this discrete bite? hh 14 HR. BICKWIT: Fitz. l 15 HR. TITZGERAID: A couple-of very discreet people. 16 (Laughter.) 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Ton and a couple of people? 18 MR. FITZGERAID: Eyself --- l i 19 MR. BICKWIT4 --- Rothschild and --- l 1 and Paul Goldberg vill be 20 ER. FITZGERAID: 21 working with us. 22 COMEISSIONER AHEARNE: Who is actually going to go 23 out? 24 HR. BICKWIT: Fitr. l 25 MR. FITZGERAID tyself and one other and we ALDERSON REPORT 1NG CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRG!N!A AVE, S.W, WASHINCTON, D.C. 20C24 (202) 554 2345

29 1 haven't discussed who the other person is yet-. 2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI4 I suppose I should have 3 asked one more question. N 4 (Laughter.) 5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: We ought to make sure in'our 6 questioning to know whether it was Nevaark himself, whether 7 it was Nevaark Associates and then of course from the 8 Associates we can find out -how independent. they are.

Then, 9 also, are you sure it $rasn't *Naynark"7 Rot Nevaark but 10 Narmark.

11 (Laughter.) 12 MR. BICKWIT: We can certainly ask that question. 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Narmark has a consulting h 14 company and I don't know if.he is in the seismicity area. 15 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKI -Well, it is that sort of l i 16 reason why I thought it didn't make sense to go -- 17 CHAIRMAN PALIADIN04 Did it -say Eathan Nevaark.by l l 18 any chance? 19 (Laughter.) 20 HR. F~TZGERALD: I was also thinking about 21 interviewing Commissioner Gilinsky, I mean just as an 22 initial step and whomever was with him to get down time, 23 place, location and exactly what he saw. That would be as a 24 first step. 25 (Laughter.) l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,1NC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

1 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: There goes your element of 2 surprise. 3 (Laughter.) 4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINoa Then after this is done you 5 would come back and give an oral report to the Commission? 6 ER. BICKWIT I anticipate that we would have a 7 vrittep report and give it to the Commission and a day later down and take the Commission's questions and try.to work 8 sit 9 out where we go from there. 10 CHAIRM AN P AllADINO: Then when do we send stuff to 11 the parties? 12 ER. BICKWIT 1.et's assume the parious 13 possibilities. It seems there are three. One, that you have decided that there is.really h 14 At that point I aould release this report.to 15 mothing there. 16 the parties and perhaps relevant parts of the transcript Just release it and -inst let then have it. 17 the oral meeting. 18 CH AIRE AN P ALL ADINO: With a statement that we -- W'ith a statement -as to what this is 19 HR. BICKVIT 20 all about. CHAIRMAN PAllADINO: That we have _ mo concern? 21 22 ER. BICKWIT: Well, I would say that Fitz has no 23 concerns. 24 (Laugher.) If Fitz comes back and says there is 9 25 MR. BICKWIT ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINLA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

23 1 nothing to worry about I would have that report go out that 2 there is nothing to vorry about according to Fitzgerald. I 3 would have it served on the parties and the Commission need O 4 take no action at that point. The parties speak to it. You 5 know., that might alter the Commission's judgment. I think 6 it is unlikely under those circumstances, but I think you 7 don 't want to leave yourselves open for having made the 8 decision without at least giving them an opportunity to 9 speak to these matters. 10 So that would be the first scenario under those 11 circumstances. It.goes out but with the assessment from

12. Titrgerald that there is no problem.

13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That is based entirely on j 14 two interviews with Cloud and one with --- m 15 MB. BICKWIT: And looking at some. documents. 16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD4 I don't know that the 17 procedure is wrong as a matter of how to handle it everall 18 but I sure wouldn't put forth that conclusion. The only 19 conceivable scenario in which I would put forth that 20 conclusion is the one you suggested, Joe, which it. turns out 21 it is just somebody else's name on the blackboard. 22 MR. BICKWIT: There may be a completely consistent 23 rational explanation f or this. If he finds it.I think he Q 24 ought to tell you that. V 25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: All right, that is true. ALDERSoN REPORTING. COMPANY.1NC. 400 V!RGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. ::0024 (202) 554-2345

24 l 1 I must say I can't conceive of one other than the one Joe 2 has suggested. But supposing that they just deny it and say 3 that it wasn't on the board or say that it was on the board h* V 4 but in fact it turns out there were no such inputs. 5 It seems to me at a minimum he would have to ask 6 PGCE to produce any contracts or records of payment. 7 HR. BICKWIT Tha t is the first bite. The first 8 bite includes those two interviews and a look at documents 9 at PGEE headquarters. 10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Oh, you would go over the 11 documents at PGCE? 12 HE. BICKWIT2 Ies. 13 CHAIRHAN PALLADIR0s I thought you weren't-coing h-14 to contact PGCE. 15 HR. BICKWIT4 We were mot going to interview 16 PGCE. We just want to take.a look at their documents. 17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: And at Newmark* s. 18 MB. BICKWIT: Ies. 19 COMMISSIONER AREABNE: I think I end up doining 20 Tom at that stage. If it was let's go out and ta'1k to these 21 two guysf%en I coa SCC YW QurnE 22 HE. BICKWITs Well, that is one of your options. 23 These are all options along the way. m 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Let me finish. I think you 59 25 have just pointed out that in addition to going out and ALDERSoN REPoRUNG COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

25 1 talking to those two guys you essentially are going to have 2 to request from PGEE a set of documents. 3 ER. BICKWIT: You can put that in a second bite if 4 you want to. 5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But I think Tou conclusion' 6 is, and that Peter has just verified, that just talking to 7 those people isn't going to be adequate enough unless there 8 M a Newmark there. 9 ER. BICKEIT4 Right. 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I assume that Victor 11 and Ed Abbott are well able to tell the difference on 12 Newmark. It is such a well known name. 13 CHAIREAN PAllADINO: It is a more likely name than n 14 Naymark p 15 COMEISSIONER AHEARNE: Given that, once You make 16 this request of PGCE this is a public request mov. Then it 17 f alls into the thing that Tom tras concerned about and that 18 is it looks like we are secretively going around at 19 something and we don't want to talk about what we are doing. 20 MR. BICKWIT: It is not secretive. When we l 21 conduct investigations we dor.?t announce it to-the world. 1 1 22 COHEISSIONER AREARNE: I understand that. 23 ER. BICKEIT: I am just suggesting that we not g 24 announce this one te the world. V 25 COEMISSIONER BRADFORD: It is like say the Pilgrim t 1 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

26 9 1 investigation pre-public announcement I guess. 2 _ COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, but Pilgrim wasn't 3 being done in such a spotlight which Diablo Canyon is. f b 4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, let 's Zimmer or 5 South Texas. 6 NR. BICKWIT: If you get a question, if it leaks &d 7 ttren you say when it leaks. 8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I just think it is when. 9 HR. BICKWIT4 Okay, when it leaks. The answer.is 10 I don't want to comment on that. 11 (Laughter.) 12 NR. BICKVIT: Any -investigations that we conduct 13 are not conducted in a manner in which we. openly comment on h 14 them while they are being conducted. When they are over the 15 public realm will have it all. 16 COEMISSIONER GIIINSKY4 Oh boy 1 17 (laughter.) 18 ER. BICKWITJ If SOmeone else has a simple 19 solution to this I would be delighted. 20 l I 21 22 23 A 24 ! O. 25 I I l l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY.INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W, WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 564-23df

27 1 2 3 4 5 NB. BICKWIT4 Anyway, I am not sure what.that 6 really gains. I mean it is your doing it instead of ~ 7 somebody else doing it and bringing it to you. 8 9 e 10 11 ( La ughte r..) 12 HR. BICKEIT4 It isn't different. 13 CHAIBMAN.?ALLADIN04 len, if you go to the point h4 14 of looking at PGEE documents why would you shy away from 15 talking to PGCE people, manageYient? 16 HR. BICKWITs It is pretty -arbitrary what you put 17 into this first bite of the apple. This is where we came 18 out, that you want to know enough that Ton might be able to 1 19 just dismiss this thing out of hand. 20 I think if there is nothing there I think there is 21 a good chance that you could determine that with finality 22 through this particular procedure by talking to two people 23 and looking at those documents. 24 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s What you might find out any 25 be very conclusive in itself. It may be that lievaark was ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINtA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

28 l 1 called in to answer some specific question at some specific 2 time and you can't tell that from the records. You could ~ 3 tell it by talking to Paul and the people in the Newaark E ~4 Associates perhaps.or Cloud. 5 HR. BICKWIT: We would talk to Cloud. 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You know, assuming that it 7 was in fact Nevaark 's name, and I think it was, I assume 8 that the way they came up with this list was through S rummaging around in ? GEE records. I think what Bob did is uk.wi c4., o.cd$ e records of the contract and got copies 10 he :;.t;; L vd th 11 of them, well, he either had copies or access to them and I 12 g ot the impression that he had copies of of them, and he 13 came up with this list. 14 So it may well be that ;!nst going to Cloud will 15 resolve it or ---' 16 ER. BICKWITs It is a perfectly acceptable -option 17 to simply talk to these two people and not go and look at 18 those documents on the first run. 19 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS Those documents, what are 20 those documents? 21 ER. BICKWIT4 Any documents that relate to l 22 employment, if there are any, of Nevaark by PGCE. 23 COEHISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, suppose the first.tvo 24 interviews would lead one to believe that no such document 25 existed. Would you still go to PGCE and say let me see your ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. MC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON. D.O. 20024 (202) 654-2345

d contract with Newmark? 1 employment 2 HR. BICKWITs We would not. 3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Boy, I would. 4 (Laughter.) It depends how firmly it leads us to 5 HR. BICKWIT: If the explanation is that the name was 6 believe that. 7 Narmark - I doubt that even though I 8 CH AIRB AN P ALLADINO 9 raised it. I just would like to make sure 10 ER. BICKWITs Dr it was Tom 'Nevaark - I can't imagine where you are going 11 HR. BICKWIT: 12 to get into a situation where they say the thing 1tasn't I mean, they had some reason 13 there or anything like that. h 14 f or. putting it up there. He 15 CHAIREAN PALLADIN0s Barbe he made.a proposal. 16 in several places I remember said he got so much of the 17 run-around in working with WRC that if he didn't get better 18 treatment he would go work -for the utilities. It wasn'.t in that sort of COHEISSIONER GILINSKYs 19 It was more in terms of those who had actually input 20 vein. 21 into the design. / CHAIRHAN P ALLADINO: It may have been that input 22 OX 23 was to be Iv u ihe NBC. COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY: That is what I was just 24 I mean it is conceivable that he wrote 25 going to say. ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY. INC, 400 MRGINtA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 GC2) 554-2345 z

30 1 something which they used. But somehow the conversation 2 suggested something more than that and that is why I pursued 3 it. That is all. But it m ay be that in f a ct -- ~ 4 CH AIR M AN PALLADIN04 They may have used his 5 textbook. 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI4 -- they may have used his 7 textbook or something like that. 8 CHAIRHAN PALLADIN04 Well, it sounds to me if we 9 vant to keep it under reasonable control that maybe the 10 first thing to do is talk to Cloud and talk to Nevaark 11 Associates. That is the first bite and then review. Nov if 12 that comes out inconclusive then we probably: vould take a 13 second bite. But would ve"have to give out the results of ) 14 the first bite before we.take the second bite? 15 ER. BICKRIT4 I think Ton should at that point. 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIt I don't really see M y E <ah b ~ 17 eill " - - - - " ' - ',ythatAdifferent 'than looking around in l 18 some technical reports for the right frequency for the l 19 containment? You can have somebody say looking at staff 20 reports. Suppose Forrest decided that he wanted to check on I 21 the natural frequency of the containment and thinks the 22 answer lies in one of the staff reports and they go up to l 23 Bethesda and they collect the report and they look up the i 24 f requency. He doesn't have to announce to the world that.be l 25 is doing that. e ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VeRGINIA AVE. S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345

31 1 I hope you don't mind me using you as an example. 2 MR. REMICKs No. 3 HR. BICKWIT: It is a hard question. You may have 4 to. 5 COMEISSIONER BR ADFORD4 It is not quite so clear 6 cut. If the report is in the case you don't have to. If 7 the report is a general textbook you don't have to. If the 8 report is something that was prepared by one of the 9 interested witnesses in the. case.but isn't-in either of 10 those two categories you might.have to. 11 CH AIRM A N P ALL ADIN O: I didn't hear that.last l 12 comment. l 13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: If the report is something 1h 14 that was prepared.by an interested party in the case and is 15 not in either of the first two categories then you might l 16 have to disclose that the Commission had consnited it. 17 CONNISSIONER GILINSKYs But this wasn't prepared i 18 with a decision on the Nevaark question in mind. These are 19 simply files. This isn't done at the initiative of one of 20 the parties that wants to convince us of one thing.or 21 ano ther. He are simply looking up -- 22 MR. REMICK I would view that the way we would 23 handle something like that is if that influenced what we 24 brought to you we would want to identify it just as we did 25 the ACES letters in the vessel 5.evel instrumentation. That' ALDERSoN REPORTING CoWPANY,INC, 400 Y!RGINTA AE S.W., WASHfNGToN D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

32 1 was something outside and we very specifically pointed out 2 tha t in addition we think the ' Commission should be aware of 3 this and we drew your. attention to it. 4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. I am, I think, 5 coming out where you are, Vic, in that I don't see any need 6 to take the investigation out to the parties in stages. I 7 think I would finish it before I put it,out. But len is 8 right that there is an issue in there that is not an easy 9 one in terms of the point at which it starts to have an 10 impact on the Commission's assessment of Newmark. 11 If the Commission at some point in -here.were to 12 decide on the basis of What it was looking at that N eva ark 13 was not a reliable witness in some respects, then the. party, 14 that he represented, in this case the staff, would clear 17 15 be entitled to address that conclusion. 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI4 Oh, sure. But suppose we 17 decide that the name was Naynark or else they simply 18 consulted Newmark's textbook or whatever and you can just 19 decide well we vill f orget about it. 20 COMMISSIONER BRADF0EDs Then things are back to 21 where they were before you visited Cloud. 22 COEEISSIONER GILINSKI Yes. I don't see any 23 reason to lay that before - 24 ER. BICKWIT: There'is an argument that you don't gg, 25 hav e to. I don't see that it really hurts anything to lay ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (A 554-2345

33 1 it out at that point. 2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I was going to say' that, 3 3, on the other hand, if you find that he was employed and he L 4 helped design it and so on, well, I guess that is pretty 5 important. 6 CHAIRMAN PAllADINO: 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 D 14 15 16 17 18 19 CHAIRMAN PALIADINO: 20 21 22 23 24 g .r ALDERSoN REPORTING. COMPANY, fNC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGioN, D.C. 20024 (202) 654 2345

34 e,- 1 2 3 5~ 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: That I was cetting at, len, h-14 is they have a vested interest in that they 'have used 15 Newmark for their seismic analysis. 15 0 it is important to 16 then to. know whether Newmark's name is tainted. 17 COHHISSIONER AREABRE I think len's optics point 18 is that it is because of that vested interest that they also 19 would be viewed as having an interest in it coming out'that 20 there was nothing there. 21 ER. BICKVITa I just think it gains you nothing 22 and loses you just a little bit. But it certainly an 23 available way to go. In fact, it is very tempting. 24 (Laughter.) 25 ER. BICKWIT. We suggested OIA. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGfNIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

l 35 1 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, suppose we vent your 2 vay and we took a bite at a ' time at the risk of saying if 3 the first bite isn't conclusive let's go for the second bite f. 4 before it leaks to the parties. Would that give you a 5 problem? 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 j. r~ 13 h 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 j 4

36 1 l 2 l 'p 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 15 20 21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It sight become in 22 con troversy but at the moment it is not in controversy. 23 ER. BICKWIT: Well, that is another matter. I 24 assume in the minds of some of you that.What is at issue 25 here is the credibility of a staff witness. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, tNC, 400 VIRGINtA AVE., S.W., WASH!NGTON, D.C. 20024 c02) 554-2345

37 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It is possible but not 2 probable. 3 HR. BICKWIT: What is at issue. 4 CONNISSIONER BRADFORD: let's see, there is no 5 pending contention to the effect that Newmark is not.a 6 credible witness. 7 HR. BICKWIT: No, you can slice it and say that 8 the issue.here is not seismicity. The issue is credibilit; '8 of a staff witness in the seismic proceeding and that in 10 itself is not a contested issue. But that would be slicing 11 it more finely than we generally do. 12 What we generally do is look at the issue, the 13 contested issue.which is seismicity and.say anything that is h 14 relevant to the resolution of that issue regards a 15 substantive matter at issue. 16 I 17 CHAIRMAN PALIADIN04.len, what 1tould it take Jim, l 18 a week or ten days to do his investigation? 19 (Laughter.) 20 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO: What I was getting at if we 21 come up with additional questions he has to go back out and 22 talk to PGCE and look at that data and that might be another 23 four or five or seven or eight or ten days. 24 l.l / 2s ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 YIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346

38 1 2 3 P. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 i 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO: Eell, let me propose that we 22 go through the first bite, the first bite being talking to 23 Newmark Associates and to Cloud, and then having Fitzgerald 24 report back to the Commission with the understanding that if 1-' M l 25 it is not conclusive /)ve want to take another step amid we J ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l

39 1 withhold giving the information to the parties until we 2 accomplish the conclusive step, but then that we would give 3 it to the parties. That is a variation on your proposal. 4 MR. BICKWIT We -vill take any variation that 5 commands three votes. 6 COMEISSIONER GILINSKY: Let's see, when you say 7 " conclusive," what do you mean? 8 COHNISSIONER BRADFORD4 Anything that commands 8 three votes. gg4 hNf-.6 10 (Laughter.) 11 CHAIRMAN PALIADINO: Iffthere is a report.-by 12 Newmark that vas used and he wasn't actually a consultant 13 and we drop it, then I say that is conclusive on the first O '4 mite-15 If a the first. bite they said it is.the 16 people's impression that Newmark Associates were involved in [!. 17 some early action, and.ve are not quite sure who in Nevaark 1: l 18 Associates did it.and nobody remembers and -ve vant to go 19 look' at PGCE, I would say, well, that is inconclusive and 20 now we may decide to go look at PGCE and that may show that 21 it was Joe Blev from Newmark Associates that worked on the 22.$ o b. Conclusive means when.we are satisfied we understand 23 the situation. p f 24 COMEISSIONER BRADFORD: It sounds all right to me h' 25 in the interest of moving forward. It gets it off of dead l ALDERSoN REPORTING. COMPANY,INC, l t 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

40 1 center and it may be the kind of thing that you -vant to 2 modify a little as events come to light. It is progress. 3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Tom, how do you feel? 4 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS 4 I don't think there is a 5 snowball's chance in hell that it isn't going to be known. 6 I would jus t serve all the parties. This thing is the 7 center of great controversy and-a lot of scrutiny and it 8 sounds to me, whether you agree with this or not, to me it 9 sounds like we are tioing something in secret. Put it out 10 and let everybody know. They are going to know anyway. 11 CH AIRMAN PAllAI)INO: What would you Tropose we do? 12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS Serve the parties and 13 explain what Commissioner Gilinsky saw in his tour of h 14 Cloud 's office, or whatever. I sm.not. raising the question. 15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: And then make an 16 investigation. So your variation is keep all the parties 17 informedf N N S 18 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSs Tes. I think len's desire 19 is marvelous. You know, okay, we so.out there and it was 20 Naymark or some silly explanation., There is really nothing 21 there and that is fine, but I don't think that' is the way 22 the real world works. 23 COEMISSIONER AHEARNE: I tend to agree with Tom. i 24 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO: So you would announce to the 8 25 parties now what Victor observed and tell them we are going l ALDEASoN REPORTING CoWPANY.INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346

g3 1 to check it out. 2 COMMISSIONER AREARNE: Right, and then send Fitz 3 out. 4 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 That is a refreshing approach. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MR. BICKWIT: It is a lot simpler. ~7 CHAIRMAN P ALLADINO: What problems do you find 8 with that? 9 HR. BICKWIT: 'What problems do I fin' sith it? 10 CHAIRMAN PALLADIRO: 7 es. 11 HR. BICKWIT: I will tell you my problems, dust 12 the two I mentioned before. One, I think it is a needless 13 slur at this point and, secondly,.y.ou know, I just don't Eg: 14 think it is the best way to get at the ansvers as far as an 15 investigation is concerned. 16 I think the better way is to proceed arith just a 17 knock on the door and an interview without any time for p @ms, @you 4.rverace @ M b 18 preparation g ggg ye g;g ] 19 CHAIREAN PALLADINO: I would like to put a 20 variation on the proposal, that after we review the first 21 bite we may or may not notify the parties. 22 ER. BICKWIT: I prefer that. 23 g.' 24 25 l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,ING, 400 VIRGtNIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

l u2 1 2 CHAIRMAE PALLADINO: I just want to leave us an 3 option that when we find out what -vas learned on'the first \\- 4 bite. If it settles the issue then of course we vill let 5 all the parties know. 6 COMEISSIONER GILINSKT-: This gets back to len 's .w 7 o riginal proposal. .8 MR. BICKWIT: It is very close. 9 CH AIRM AN P ALIADINO: I am saying.we will decide at 10 that tiae when and vhat will be released to the parties. 11 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD: I think what happens if 12 you notify the parties, and I haven't really thought this 13 through, but it then has in effect gone into the channel (h) 14 that falls under the general heading of motifications to the 15 Licensing Boards which is required when the staff has l l 16 'inf oraation that has implications for a particular 17 proceeding. 18 Now once you have done that then the parties are 19 going to go off and file the kinds of documents that ther 20 would in response to something like this. They will say 21 this is new inforaation and we have to have discovery based 22 on it and we vant to introduce a contention in the 23 proceeding based on it. l 24 The staff vill be under a duty I think to look g3(.' we-25 into it 'and draw its conclusions about its own. witness. I i j ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY.INC, 400 VIRGIN 1A AVE, S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345 l

...o 43 1 am not sure what PGEE vould do with it, but I can't imagine 2 that the State of California and the other intervenors 3 wouldn't want to take legal steps in the context of the = k-4 proceeding. Now at some point, as Len has pointed out, they 5 would very likely have a right to make that attempt. 6 It seems to me as I construe it, what would really 7 be nothing more than Victor's affidavit of what happened on 8 his trip to Cloud Associates is a pretty flimsy beginning 9 for what is going to rapidly be a 'large and confused 10 und ertaking. So I am inclined to go at least the one step 11 further and get a feel for what is really there. 12 CHAIEHAR PALIADINO: I am going to come down on 13 the side that we take the first bites and.ve not decide at h 14 this moment.Whether or not at that time we.vould notify the 15 parties. We would make the decision at that time and it l l 16 would be dependent on what we learned. But the intent is 17 not to withhold from the parties the conclusive information 18 that we determine. 19 It is a little bit like somebody saying I saw a l 20 crime but nobody found out whether there was a crime. What l 21 is it, corpus delicti? 22 CONHISSIONER GILINSKY You can throw a few of 1 l 23 those in, too.

g 24 (Laughter.)

25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: How do se stand then? ALDERSON REPORTING CoWPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

44 5. 1 You would prefer no't to go that way. 2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: (Nodding affirmatively ) 7 ;,} 3 CHAIREAN PALLADINO: And you would prefer not to s-4 go that way. 4: 5 COMEISSIONER ROBERTS: I think you out to come out 6 in the open. I think' the sinr thing is unfortunate.but that 7 can't be helped. I think if you did come out in.the open 8 you could explain it to minimize the sinr perhaps. Sorry, I B dust don 't agree vith Tou. 10 CHAI1tHAN TALLADIN04 I hate to come out in the 11 open with a suspicion. That is why I revised myself in 12 saying vell, maybe it is snart that ' shen I. get the facts we j 13 vant to come out in the open.- Bather than decide that nov c 14 why not.vait.until that time. We only.have.a suspicion. ' G 15 CONHISSIONER ROBERTSs Ion-may tave another one. 16 I am going out there next.veek. I any come back with all 17 sorts of suspicions. m R. Bac 4 ws7: S7Py' % SO 5 l 18 (Laughter.) 19 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO: 20 21 22 23 24 ,e 25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 V!RGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

f .p '45 1 2 3 4 k 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 CHAIRHAN PALIADIN04 Well, the verification 14 program and who is going to be -selected to -- 15 HE. BICKWIT2 That is not in adjudication. 16 COHHISSIONER GIIINSKI4 He-vent through all that 17 in great detail and Len explained then that that was not 18 part of the adjudication. i 19 l 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S. WWASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 QS64-2346

40 a ,e 1 2 Well, I think, if I understand right, we have 3 three who are villing to take the first bite. 4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: These role reversal votes \\\\ pu 5 always makeA feel very stupid. 6 (Laughter.) N ' CHAIRMAN PALIADIN0s I am serious. We are going 8 out to get enough facts to see whether.our suspicions.have 9 enough grounds to pursue it further. At the point when.ve 10 get the first bite we vill have some of that information and 11 at that time we vill decide whether or not it is significant 12 enough to notify the parties. 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I wouldn't even 14 characterize the present situation as one of holding 15 suspicions. It just seems to me there is information which 1 16 you can 't disregard. 17 COMMISSIONER AREARNE4 It is clarifying something. 18 CH AIRMAN PALLADINO: I will withdraw the word 19 " suspicion" and say information that needs to be clarified ^ 20 or verified. 21 Have we done what we came to do? 22 ER. BICKWIT: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Nov ve can go on to the 24 hard case. 25 (Discussion among the Commissioners on scheduling.) ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

47 1 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Can we pick up another time 2 on pfychological stress, on the status? 3 (Commissioners nodding in agreement.) ?} N 4 CHAIEHAN PALLADINO: Thank you. ,.) 5 The meeting is adjourned. 6 (Whereupon, at 3:05 p.m., the meeting adjourned. ) T 8 9 i i 10 11 l 12 13 /\\ 7 14 I 15 16 17 18 ~ 19 20 21 22 23 U 24 I. / Q 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

s /~- UUC"ZAR N M RT CD. C SICN This 12 y Oc ca.T f7 Chat the. attachec procee<11cg3 befcra the l'C .in the 320027 cf1 DISCUSSION OF PENDING ADJUDICIARY MATTER

  • Data cf Prcceeding:. January 13, 1982 l

Doc.kat Utaber: i ~ Flace cf Proceedicg: January 13, 1982 were held as herei: : app ears., and hah. this is the cM3%=7 :: anscri; thersef for the file of the Cc d *sica., Mary C. Simons Official.2epertar (!7;ed) d@i e:r M l Official Zepcetar (Sig:sture) { S 4 e e gs Tf .}}

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