ML20053D076
| ML20053D076 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 05/26/1982 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20053D077 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8206040037 | |
| Download: ML20053D076 (59) | |
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0 NUCLEAR REGULATOR! COMMISSION 1
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COMMISSION MEETING In the.%ttar of:
BRIEFING ON THREE-MILE ISLAND-2 CLEANUP PUBLIC MEETING DATE:
May 26,-1982 PAGES:
1 - 57 AT:
Washington, D. C.
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E-400 vi_TM a Ave., S.W. W==hd"g cn, D. C. 20024 b
Talachc=a: (202) 554-2345 8206040037 820526 PDR 10CFR PT9.7 PDR I
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
BRIEFIN" ON THREE-MILE ISLAND-2 CLEANUP 4
PUBLIC MEETING 5
Nuclear Regulatory Commission Room 1130 6
1717 H Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.
7 Wednesday, May 26, 1982 8
The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 9
1:30 o' clock p.m.
10 BEFOBE 11 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner 12 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner JAMES ASSELSTINE, Commissioner 13 STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABLE:
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14 S. CHILK, Secretary 15 F. BEMICK B. RUSHE 16 F. COFFMAN H. FEINROTH 17 B. SNYDER 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 s
25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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DISCLAIMER Tnis is arr unofficial transcript of a meeting of the. United States Nuclear Regulatory Ccumission held on w,,
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, on, in the Cocmission's offices at U17 H Street,. N. W;,. Ka~snington, D. C.
The meeting was open ta public a.ttendance and. observation.
This transcript
- has. not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is. intendit solely for general infomational purcosas As provided. by 10 CFR 9.103,. it. is not parc of the farinal or infomal record of' decision of the ma.tters d.iscussed.
Expressions of opinion irr
.this. transcript do not necessarily reflect fina.1 deteminations or beliefs.
No pleading'or other paper may be filed with the Commissiorr 1:r any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument
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- conta.ined hereirr,. except as the Conmission may auth'orize.
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1 EE2EEED111E 2
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The meeting vill please 3
come to order.
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4 The Commission meets this af ternoon to receive 5
a briefing from the Department of Energy on their 6
activities associated with the cleanup of THI-2.
7 On April 2, 1982, I sent a letter to Edwin 8
Meese, Counsellor to the President, stating that my 9
fellow Commissioners and I believe that the cleanup of 10 THI-2 must be accelerated.
On April 26, 1982, Mr. Meese 11 responded to my letter drawing attention to the THI-2 12 cleanup situation.
13 He agreed that we should continue to support k
14 an accelerated cleanup program.-
He pointed out that DOE 15 is responsible for the Federa_ activities in this area, 18 and that DOE has been working with Governor Thornburg, 17 General Public Utilities and the NRC during the past 18 months regarding the cleanup.
His letter reported that 19 he had asked Saccetary Edwards to arrange a briefing to 20 review recent progress on the THI-2 cleanup.
The 21 meeting today is a result of Mr. Meese's request to 22 Secretary Edwards.
23 Sepresenting the DOE this afternoon are Mr.
24 Ben Rushe, Special Assistant to Secretary Edwards; Dr.
25 Frank Coffman, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Nuclear ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 Waste Management; and Herb Feinroth, whose title I 2
didn 't get, but I understand works for Mr. Coffman.
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3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
TMI Cleanup Expeditor.
4 (General laughter.)
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Unless my fellow 6
Commissioners have any other opening rimarks, I suggest 7
turning the meeting over to Mr. Rushe, who has a few 8
introductory remarks, and then turn over to Dr.
9 Coffman.
10 HR. RUSHEt Mr. Chairman, and Commissioners, 11 the Secretary would have me express his appreciation f or 12 your continued attention and interest in THI because of 13 its importance to the whole nuclear program of our i
14 country.
15 I am sure you will recall that within the week 16 af ter he was sworn in, he had begun some very active 17 discussions with Governor Thornburg and with members of 18 the Commission at that time, expressing his very real 19 interest in trying to see the Federal Government 20 determine a proper role for its participation in the 21 cleanup or the research and development activities 22 related thereto.
23 So it is with a great of pleasure that we have 24 the opportunity today to bring you a status report on 25 what has been done and some of the things that we ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INU, 400 VIRGINtA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 believe lie ahead.
I would hope that this briefing 2
might be one of several from time to time, that your 3
interest will remain high, and tha t the urgency that you g
4 attach to proceeding with tha cleanup, an urgency 5
expressed in your letter to Mr. Mees 2 and also to 6
Members of Congress, is shared by the Secretary.
'J e 7
have been pleased to work together, with the benefit of 8
oversight by the Commissioner.
We look forward to 9
moving ahead vigorously.
10 I hope that in the discussion today, should we 11 leave out sections that are important to you, that we 12 vill have an opportunity soon to fill those gaps, and 13 that we can continue this dialogue.
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14 Nr. Coffman will carry the major portion of 15 the presentation, and Mr. Feinroth will be pleased to 16 answer questions if you have interest.
17 MR. COFFMANt Mr. Chairman, thank you for the 18 opportunity to provide a status report on the Three Mile 19 Island claanup activity.
I have i prepared text here 20 and viewgraphs, and I would propose to go through this, 21 but if you desita to ask questions and go into sort of a 22 spontaneous discussion, I would be happy to proceed in 23 that manner as well.
24 My purpose this morning is to address the i
25 TMI-2 cleanup problem and the concerns raised in your ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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letter to Counsellor Meese of April 2, 1982.
In that 2
letter, you urged the Federal Government to take a more 3
aggressive role in accelera ting :.t: cleanup process to 4
avoid any degradation of containment integrity and 5
equipment capability which could lead to unexpected 6
releases of radioactivity.
7 Specifically, you asked Counsellor Meese to 8
express the Administration's support of (1) 9 establishment of additional 01'eanup funding that will to guarantee a rapid cleanup, and (2) acquisition and 11 disposal of the entire damaged core by DOE as soon as 12 possible.
I as happy to say that the second hurdle, we 13 have crossed over and I will discuss it in the ensuing
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14 paragraphs.
1 15 As ind3 cat ad in his letter of April 26 to you, 16 Counsellor Meese shares your concern.
As a first step, 17 he has asked Secretary Edwards to arrange this briefing 18 to describe to you what is actually occurring and 19 planned in the near future with regard to the health and 20 safety concerns expressed in your letter, and to explore 21 with the need for further action by the Federal 22 Government.
23 Secretary Edwards and Assistant Secretary 24 Brewer have asked me to be completely frank and open 25 with you with regard to the situation as it now exists t
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1 and our own view of future prospects.
2 First, I will describe the progress made in 3
removing the vaste from THI.
As you will see, the bulk 4
of the radioactive water has already been processed and 5
the radioactive contaminants have been concentrated in a 6
small number of packages, some of which have already 7
been shipped offsite.
NRC staff is already reviewing 8
licensing of shippings casks and, if approved, the 9
remaining packages will be shipped within 12 months.
In 10 cur view, funding is no longer a limiting factor in 11 resolving the abnormal vaste issues at Three Mile 12 Island.
13 Second, I will describe progress made in 14 securing access to the reactor for core examination, 15 removal, and' disposal.
We believe the progress is good, 18 and that improved progress will be made as a result of 17 recent improvements in containment habitability and 18 recent efforts by the owners to improve the efficiency 19 of the cleanup asnagement team.
In fact, we are hopef ul 20 that substantial progress in head removal, plenum 21 removal and fuel removal will occur during the next year 22 and a half.
23 In addition, the Department has signed an 24 agreement in principle with the owners, and a memorandum 25 of understanding with the Commission, to acquire and ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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dispose of the entire damaged core.
I will briefly 2
describe the terms of that agreement and the status of 3
the implementation.
4 Finally, I will discuss with you current 5
prospects for securing additional financing for the 6
cleanup.
In our view, and I realize this differs to a 3
7 degree from the views expressed in your April 2 letter, 8
the current pace of the cleanup work is only minimally 9
affected at this time by tanding limita tions.
10 This year's spending levels of some $55 11 million per year by the owners for TMI-2 operations, 12 maintenance, and cleanup, and some $30 million f or DOE 13 BCD, should allow continued good progress in the cleanup i
14 during this year.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNEt Picking up on Ben's 18 offer.
You have two statements, one is that the funding 17 should allow continued good progress, and the second is i
18 that there is only minimal effect of funding 19 limitations.
Those aren't necessarily incompatible, but 20 they may be.
21 Are you saying that if Met-Ed had had, say, 22 twice as such money available a year ago that they would 23 not be making more progress now?
24 MR. COFFHAN No.
What I was saying is that 25 the level of funding for this calendar year, calendar ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 year 1982, is not the predominant factor in restricting 2
progress.
I agrae with you, if we had had the funding 3
package together a couple of years ago, certainly we 4
would be a year or two ahead of schedule from where we 5
are now.
6 What I am trying to do is take a snapshot of 7
where we tre today, and then where we might be a year or 8
so from now.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now, then, are you 10 saying that if they'were, over the next year, to get 11 substantially more funds available than they nov 12 forecast, that two or three years from now there would la be no change?
14 NH. COFFMANa In my opinion, at this time, the 15 most critical elements are assurance of a stable level 16 of continued funding at the rate of approximately $100 17 million per year.
I would not want to presume that $150 18 million a year would not accelerate the progress, but 19 what I as saying is that to a large degree the rate of 20 progress will depend upon -- I am getting to the end of 2t my talk, but will depend somewhat the resolution of the 22 TMI-1 issue, th e resolution of licensing and startup 23 issues, and optimiring and streamlining the management 24 team that conducts the cleanup.
I think there is much 25 to be gained there, and a large amount of incremental ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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money would not grossly accelerate the cleanup.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEABNE:
Grossly accelerating is 3
a lot different that " minimally affected."
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4 MR. COFFMANa Yes, sir.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
One of the things I 6
learned in my last trip to TMI was that only a modest 7
fraction of the people actually working at TMI are 8
involved in cleanup.
A good f raction of them are 9
basically babysitting the reactor.
Are you saying that 10 if we had more money on the project, we couldn't use 11 more people in the cleanup at this time, either in 12 planning or development of equipment, procurement of 13 equipment 7
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to NHw COFFRANs I think,during this year, 15 limited amounts of additional funds could be utilized.
18 However, I think there is perhaps more to be gained at 17 this time f rom sorting out the interfaces on licensing 18 and the agreements as to how to approach the program in 19 an expeditious and analytical manner.
20 I guess if I could say it in one sentence, I 21 think we must all learn, all parties to this cleanup, 22 that this is somewhat of a demolition program as opposed 23 to a major construction project.
It cannot be treated 24 as a construction project either with respect to 25 licensing or the cleanup effort.
It is a new ballgame, t
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400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. :!0024 (202) 554-2345.
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1 and I think all of us -- DOE, the cleanup contractor, 2
General Public Utilities, and NRC -- tre learning how to 3
conduct a limited amount of broken field running.
It is
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4 an analytical problem where you are taking things apart 5
and decommissioning.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I was thinking back to 7
circumstances like this SL-1 and some of the other 8
incidents of similar danage, but not as large a reactor, 9
the cleanup seemed to go expeditiously, such that in a 10 year it was no longer an ites of major significance.
We 11 have gone three years now, and the projection is to go 12 several more years at the verY least.
It is not that 13 clear that additional funding would not speed up this 14 project.
15 I almost was going to phrase it; if it is not 16 funding that is holding it up, what is?
17 MR. COFFNAN:
Perhaps what I was alluding to 18 is a shift toward the mission orientation and the deep 19 commitment by all parties to expeditiously clean it up 20 even in a. funding limited situation.
21 CONHISSIONER AHEABNE:
I think we all agree 22 with that, and the necessity for that.
I don't think 23 any of us disagree that getting, as you said earlier, 24 stability in the funding is critical because that is the 25 only way you can do rational planning.
But I think the j
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 L--
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1 exception we are taking is that the implication that 2
funding is not a limitation, speaking for myself, I 3
believe funding is a significant issue.
4 3R. RUSHE:
Mr. Chairman, may I add a comment, 5
sir?
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Yes.
7 MR. BUSHE:
I think we should be careful to 8
avoid creating an impression of oversight or management 9
which we do not have or exercise in the cleanup.
There 10 are several participants, but the primary 11 responsibility, of course, resting with the utility.
12 This is not to say that we are not all, as Frank said, 13 committed to work together.
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14 I think to get a real, full exposition of the 15 question of how much additional money would help and how 16 auch incremental expedition it would produce, then there 17 should be other people involved in the discussion and
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18 not just us.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s However, the statement 20 was being made at this point.-
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You did introduce the 22 statement that it is "only minimally affected by funding 23 limi ta tio n s. "
24 MR. RUSHE:
Especially our funding 25 limitations.
A DERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 MR. FEINROTH:
May I add a statement.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Sure.
3 MR. FEINROTH:
One of the bases for that t
4 statement has to do with the frame of reference we have 5
and you have to the cleanup specifically with regard to 6
things that affect health and safety, namely, getting 7
the vaste off the island and getting the core out.
8 There is a great deal more to do in the
'9 cleanup and recovery than just those two things.
Part to of the basis for that remark is especially with getting 11 the waste off the island, and also, we believe,.in 12 gaining early access to the core.
We do believe that we 13 have the resouces to proceed. expeditiously with those 14 two things now, and they are onir minimally affected by 15 funding.
16 It is not to say that there is not a whole lot 17 of other things the utility has to do at the plant that 18 they need more money for.
But the things that you are 19 concerned with here at the Commission, which is health 20 and safety and which prompted the letter, we feel there -
21 is a.significant amount of resources, and that is sort 22 of the basis for that statement.
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23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Without taking 24 disagreement with some of your points --
25 MR. FEINROTH:
There is a lot more than just i
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTCN, O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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those two things.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I will say here, as I 3
have said in front of the Congress in another letter, in 4
this issue my concerns, frankly, are much beyond just 5
the narrow health and safety requirements of the 6
Commission.
I see this as a much larger problem.
7 My concerns, as I have said in answer to the 8
GAO as well as to the Congress, I think that the whole 9
industry as well as th' whole Federal Government that is 10 involved in any related way in nuclear has just fallen 11 down on pulling all of it together to get monies to 12 clean this up.
So my comment is much more than just 13 health and safety.
14 MR. COFEMANs I might go on to sar 'that the 15 spirit of that comment is addressed primarily at the 16 work in this calendar year 1982, where we feel we have 17 adequate resourcas to move as fast on removing all the 18 stored waste from the island, all the abnormal vaste, as 19 we physically can.
We do believe that by prioritization 20 of the critical core removal, things can be done.
I 21 also agree that with additional resources, the other 22 issues not directly related to safety could be pursued 23 in parallel.
24 However, this situation could er' ode 25 substantially in the coming year.
General Public j
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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Utilities is spending 540 million worth of their 2
insurance this year, and in calendar year 1983 that 3
insurance money will have run out.
4 The Administration believes that these 5
additional revenues should be the responsibility of the 6
owners, the ratepayers and the stockholders.
In 7
addition, the Department of Energy supports Senate bill 8
1606 which, if enacted into law, would lead to 9
contributions from the Nation's electric utilities of 10 some $190 million.
11 CHAIRMAN PAlLADIN0s If I could ask a question 12 on the statement that it should only be the owners, the 13 ratepayers and the stockholders.
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14 It seems to se that all the utilities that 15 operate nuclear power plants have benefitted 16 significantly from the lessons learned at Three Mile 17 Island.
I think, also, the Federal Government, 18 certainly the NRC has learned a great deal about f actors 19 to be considered in regulating nuclear reactors that it 20 had not considered before.
It seems to me that the 21 vendors and the AEs that work in this business certainly 22 have benefitted by the lessons learned.
Wpy de you 23 feel, if you do, that these people should not share, the 24 benefactors of all these lessons shouldi not share in the 25 cost of cleanup?
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MB. C3FFMAN:
I think the Admistration is in 2
support basically of the Governor's formula which does 3
spread and share the responsibilities.
The Federal Government's contribution of-s$me $123 million for the 4
5 safety BCD lessons learned, if you will, is in the 6
spirit of that.
7 I might add that in the absence of the S
Department and its contractors taking the abnormal waste 9
and taking the entire core, utilizing existing 10 facilities and exis:ing waste disposal facilities, the 11 cost to General Public Utilities, under a license 12 situation,in my opinion, could exceed 5190 million.-
13 So I think we are fully in the spirit of the k
14 Governor's formula.
However, mr understanding of tae-15 continued scrong Administration position that it is 16 somewhat a utility / ratepayer responsibility is the 17 perception that it doesn't take exhorbitant rata 18 increases to f ully amortire the cleanup costs-I think 19 th'at it is it that sanse and spirit that the 20 Administration will not go beyond a shared 21 responsibility f or. the cleanup.
22 Clearly, the amount is a judgmen t call, and I 23 don't think the/ 5123 million is an exact number, but it 1
24 is in that range.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
It was more the spirit of I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 the statement that gave me some concern.
I have heard 2
many people say, "Look, it is.the problem of those
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3 people up there.
Don 't go away', ' we are no t about to i
4 bail out this organization."
Y t,
it was an accident 5
that has f ar reaching impacts, and I don't think one 6
should dismiss the possibility that all the benefactors 7
should participate in the' cleanup.
8 While you say, yes, you could accommodate the 9
additional costs in an increase in rates there, that 10 additional cost would be less if it were spread among 11 all the benefactors.
1Z MR. COFFRANs Yes.
13 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
I was picking more on the 14 spirit of that statement rather than DOE's part in it.
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BR. COFFMAN I understand.
16 The other point, of course, is that with 17 regard to S.1606, we do not believe that the owners and 18 the. State PUC should depend on this source of revenue at 19 this time.
There are substantial uncertainties as to 20 the future of that bill in the House.
We, ti.a ref o re,
21 suggest that the early sta rtup of TMI-1 and the freeing 22 up of the rate revenues for use in the cleanup by the 23 appropriate regulatory commissions are the two principal 24 near-ters actions which we must focus on.
25 We are go,ing to run out of insurance money, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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and the only assured new source of revenues to replace 1
2 that roll off is an early and expeditious handling of 3
the issues associated with the TMI-1 startup.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
How would you handle a 5
situation where the utility only owned one nuclear ' power 6
plant at a site, and it wouldn't have another plant to 7
start up to bring the additional revenue, would it be 8
treated the same wa y?
9 HR. COFFMAN:
I don't know.
10 MR. RUSHE:
Mr. Chairman, I don't think this 11 is a subject that we ought to'be discussing..
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s The whole sense here 13 gives me a little bit of problem on attitudes that seem
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14 strange to me.
If we get THI-T on the line soon, it 15 will help, and there is no argument.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEABNE:
As far as this, the 17 future hopefully will provide --
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s That will be another 19 situation.
20 MR. COFFMANs The spirit of what I am saying 21 is that it is possible that the future will bode some of 22 the things of the past.
In other words, many of the 23 thing that happened in the past were not limited to 24 funding, they were decisions made about releases, 25 decisions made about release rates.
Oftentimes, ALDERSON REPORT;NG COMPANY,INC.
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1 administrative and judgment decisions on how you proceed 2
wi th tha :leanup can predominate the progress that you 3
make.
It is in that constructive spirit that I think we 4
must approach this problem.
5 In othat words, we looked very hard in a very j
j 6
constructive manner a t the Department to see what we 7
could do within the limited 5123 million to maximize the 8
progress and maximize what we learned from TMI.
Our 9
approach to 'the sbnormal waste problem and the core to acceptance was a voluntary but constructive approach to 11 it.
I think that it is going to be in that spirit that 12 we accelerate and move this forward.
13 I don 't want to say that it is not just a
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14 money problem, but we tend sometimes to focus on the 15 money, when actually much of the progress depends updn 16 the attitude and the mission orientation of the 17 participants even within money that is less than 18 optimum.
19 It is in that reality, that we probably will 20 not get quite the money that we want, that I am perhaps 21 harping on the need for each of the entities to be very 22 innovative in coming up with approaches.
23 Maybe we can come back to that.
There are 24 some good things that I would like to describe tha t ha ve 25 happened this year, and maybe we could go back to that.
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1 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO Those were the couple of 2
paragraphs that gave me the most trouble.
3 MR. COFFMAN:
Okay.
I thought I would get 4
through with those.
5 In summary, while the progress to date has 6
been slower than all of us would like, significant 7
forward steps are now being taken.
Progress on the most 8
critical aspects of THI-2 cleanup, namely, removal of 9
the radioactive vaste and removal of the damaged core, 10 is not, at least this year, being severely constrained 11 by insufficient funds.
12 I think we discussed the rest of this.
I 13 would like to give you a brief progress report on the 14 work -
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15 At Three Nile Island there are basically three 16 classes of vastes.
They are the EPICOR liners --
17 May I have the first viewgraph?
18 (Slide) 19 MR. COFFHAN:
If you don't mind, I think I-20 will just speak to this.
21 There were some 72 EPICOR liners that were 22 generated during the first yea r to year-and-a-half of 23 the cleanup activity.
There was approximately 500,000 24 gallons of water that was utilized in cleaning up the 25 auxilliary building as the vastes built in that region.
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1 These were organic liners.
They are about four foot by 2
five foot carbon steel drums filled with organic water 3
softeners.
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4 Twenty-two of those contain less than 150 5
curies and qualify for licensed shallow land burial.
6 They have been shipped, the last one was July a year 7
ago, to Washington State.
There remain some 50 liners 8
that contain between 150 and 1300 curies, about 99 9
percent cesium and 1 percent strontium.
10 May I have the next viewggraph please.
11 (Slide.)
12 HR. COFFEANs We have signed a memorandum of 13 understanding with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and
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14 an agreement with General Public Utilities to take these 15 50 liners for RED purposes.
16 We would take, title to them at the island, 17 ship them for interim storage at Idaho.
At that point 18 we would conduct a research and development program of 19 approximately $10 million, looking at the alternatives 20 of solidification, thermal processing, or burial in a 21 high integrity container.
22 If I could have the next viewgraph.
23 (Slide.)
i 24 MR. COFFMAN:
This shows you a picture.
This 25 is a loading bell, if you will, loading this into a ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 Ch em-Nuclear cask.
We have shipped one of these to 2
Battelle-Columbus where we characterized the vaste.
3 One of the initial concerns was whether there i
4 were combustible gases or pressurization occurring.
The 5
Dep a;;tm ent and General Public Utilities, through a joint 8
program, developed the tooling to sample and 7
depressurize these, to stabilize them while they were in 8
interim storage, and to pump them in preparation for 9
shipment.
10 (Slide).
11 MR. COFFMANs This,shows a hot cell picture.
12 you can see some corrosion of the manway cover.
That 13 was one of the purposes of. conducting this RCD.
The 14 things that we learned were, when you build a special 15 cleanup system, you had better build in anticipation 16 that you might not be able to d'ispose of it 17 immediately.
In retrospect, it would have been better
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18 to have this in stainless steel instead of carbon 19 steel.
20 Mar f have the next viewgraph.
21 (Slide.)
22 MR. COFFMAN:
When we sampled those, we found 23 some hydrogen.
You see the oxygen is depleted from the 24 rusting on that aanway cover and boundaries.
25 May I have the next viewgraph?
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Could we go bck to that i
2 one?
3 MR. COFFMAN:
Sure.
4 The nitrogen was bled in.
You have a slight 5
amount of hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, hardrocarbon 6
gases', and we believe that is from degradation of the 7
organic resin.
8 There is another lesson, I think, that we have 9
learned that is applicable for future ' reactor systems, to and that is to try to avoid organic resins for high 11 curie loadings, you get polymerization and you get 12 hydrocarbon outgasing.
13 COMNISSIONER AHEARNES That condition was not 14 bad,though.
15 HR. COFFMAN:
No.
It is a lesson that we 16 continue to learn, which is to keep hydrocarbons away 17 from high curie levels.
18 COHNISSIONER AHEARNEz Thank you.
19 HR. COFFMAN:
The other part of the program --
20 there are two approach for disposing of abnormal vastes 21 which are not high level.
One is, solidification is 22 required by the NRC regula tions, and the other is to 23 provide a high integrity container to contain them 24 during most of their radio-toxic lifetime.
25 We also have a program to develop and license ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
23 1
1 wi th the Nuclear Regulatory Commission a high integrity 2
container, and we plan to conduct a license 3
demonstration in a commercial low level waste burial 4
ground of one of the EPICOR liners, again, to establish 5
a technology demonstration that future abnormal wastes 6
from future incidents or cleanup situations do have a 7
solution.
It is part of the lessons learned.
These are 8
the parameters on that.
9
( Slid e. )
10 HR. COFFMANs The second class of wastes 11 consists of the higher concentrations of cesium and 12 strontium that were actually blown out into the basement 13 th rough the pop-off valve, if you will.
(
14 There are approximately 700,000 gallons, if 15 you include the roughly 60,000 to 70,000 gallons in the 16 primary coolant water.
17 This processing system is called a submerged 18 deminerallrer system.
Since they didn't have a dry hot 19 cell, they used the fuel canal for fielding hot cell.
20 These are small, again, stainless steel, two-foot by 21 four-foot high cylinders.
l 22 These are loaded with inorganic water 23 so f teners, and I think to date we have generated roughly 24 12.
We expect, through the total cleanup, that General 25 Public Utilities will generate somewhere between 15 to l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
24 l
1 20 liners containing 10,000 to 60,000 curies each, again 2
99 percent cesium and 1 percent strontium.
3 May I have the next viewgraph.
4 (Slide.)
5 MR. COFFMAN4 Again, the total inventory of 6
water is 700,000 gallons.
There is approximately 7
400,000 curies.
This is the gross bulk of the 8
uncontained radioactivity, by that I mean outside of the 9
fuel pellets.
10 The status is some' thing that I think General 11 Public Utilities should be very proud of.
They started 12 last fall operating this submerged demineralizer 13 system.
They ran it basically ahead of schedule and
(
14 without incident or substantial problems.
They have 15 cleaned all the water out until they have basically run 16 dry.
They have found a little more in, but all the sump 17 water has been pumped out that can be gotten out and 18 loaded on to 12 SDS Lon-exchange columns.-
19 Last week, General Public Utilities began 20 processing the racirculating coolant water.
They have 21 pulled off I think on the order of 20,000 gallons into 22 the submerged demineralizer system.
So now that we have 23 cleaned up the basement water, GPU now has begun to 24 clean up the primary coolant water.
25 We, just last week, shipped the first ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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demineralizer system resin to Richland, Washington.
We 2
loaded the cask, took possession on the island.
This 3
has been shipped to Battelle at Hanford, and the 4
in tention there is to take that into a glass furnace 5
that we have in a hot cell and do 1 demonstration of 6
making this into a glass log.
7 We have already run a cold test using the 8
inorganic resins.
We made a glass log out of it.
We 9
find that you can mix 60 percent resin with 40 percent 10 glass, and make s nice glass log.
11 (Slide.)
12 MR. COFFMANa This is a cross-cut of the 13 furnace.
It is simply a melt-furnace.
You heat a glass
(
14 fritt.
Youcaix 40 percent glass with 60 percent 5
15 zeolite, and it makes a nice low, 10 leachabilitY 18 glass log.
,17 (Slide.)
18 MR. C0FFMANs That is what the furnace looks 19 like sitting outside of a hot cell.
20 (Slide.)
21 MR. COFFMAN:
That is a glass log, not of TMI 22 wastes, but we will have one like that this July, again, 23 demonstrating that abnormally high concentration wastes 24 from the commercial sector can be stabilized through 25 solidification or.through use of the high integrity ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 container.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Frank, when I was up 3
there, in cleaning up the water in the containment, they 4
were d,own to, I forget, 10 or 12 inches, where their 5
pumping system would not allow them to go any further.
8 Was that all cleaned up, or is there some residual?
7 HR. COFFNANs I think they have flushed down.
8 When they did some of the decon work, the water ran also 9
into the basement, and they have backwashed some.
10 HR. FEINROTHz Since you were there, Mr.
11 Chairman, they inserted a new suction device to suck 12 most of that water out.
It is still not all out, but a 13 substantial amount of that was removed with a special
('
14 suction device that they did put down there.
It is 15 still we there, but the bulk of that water was also 18 removed.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s That was a significant 18 amount of water.
19 MH. COFFMANs Coming off of this subject of i
20 the abnormal wastes, there is what I would call 21 miscellaneous other waste.
An example of tha,t is the 22 purification of the demineralizer system.
23 Off in the auxilliary building, there was a 24 side-stream that was to keep the water demineralized, 25 and that took on substantial quantities of l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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radioactivity.
The Department and General Public 2
Utilities are jointly pursuing a project to either 3
back-flush the demineralizer material out for shipment 4
or to come up with a system to demineralizer for 5
examination and ultimate disposal.
6 In short, it is General Public Utilities' and 7
our intention to have all the EPICOR liners removed from 8
the island within the next year, and to have all of the 9
submerged demineralizers removed to Washington,as well.
10 Other wastes, continual waste generated from decon and 11 continued cleanup and associated core removal, will be 12 promptly removed from the island as they are generated, 13 packaged, and available to go, as licensed, if they an f
14 fall into,that category, if they cannot, then under the 15 memorandue of understanding we would agree to take 16 those, pay for it if it has RCD value', and seek 17 reimbursement if it is simply a disposal problem.
18 L think the vaste problem has progressed very 19 substantially in the last year.
20 If I :an talk a little bit about reactor 21 building decontamination experiments.
The objectives of 22 the RCD activities associated with this cleanup are 23
-- to establish decon criteria, develop the 24 techniques and th e tachnology for future application; 25
--evalua te gross decon ef fectiveness;
~
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, o.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 J
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-- develop decon training and procedures;
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2
--maintain, of course, decontamination control 3
and surveillance; 4
-- evaluate personnel exposure and dosimetry 5
systems associated with this kind of an activity; and 6
--perform the rad monitoring and mapping in 7
the primary containment.
8 May I have the next viewgraph.
9 (Slide.)
10 MR. C3FFMAN The places where this experiment 11 was conducted include the polar crane region, the 347 12 elevation floor, a refueling canal, the 305 elevation 13 floor, and selected wall surfaces.
(
14 The next viewgraph 15 (Slide.)
16 MR. COFF3AN The alternative techniques that 17 were evaluated are 18
-- the' hot. low pressure water flush -- I have 19 a picture of that in a moment; the high pressure water 20 spray; simple floor scrubbing; strippable coatings; 21 abrasive blasting; wet vacuums cloth vipess and 22 de te rg e n ts.
23 These experiments took place last summer and 24 fall.
Again, you see the application of materials which 25 can be used to strip off the contamination f rom the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
29
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1 floor.
The procedure that was chosen by General Public-2 Utilities,.to a pply in a b road sense was through those 3
regions that I have named, was a low and high pressure 4
water wash -- low pressure meaning 100 PSI and high 5
pressure meaning 9,000 to ten s PSI, and 9,000 to 1,0,000 6
PSI can strip a lot of things off.
7 (Slide.)
8 MR. COFFMANs This is called the water lazer.
9 In my opinion, this has been quite effective.
10 In the paper here there is some discussion that 11 depending on the region,. depending on sky-shine, there 12 is direct radiation in the streaming, so it is very hard 13-to determine exactly what you accomplish, but if I can f
14 brief17 summarize it.
15 The gross decon levels were brought down 16 roughly -- I mean the gross surface smearable 17 cor tamination levels were brought down an order of 18 magnitude.
Direct gamma readings in different regions 19 vent anywhere from just a few percent up to factors of 20 three or four.
This definitely-brought an improvement 21 in the air levels.
22 When people are not in there working 23 oftentime, in many regions, you find you blow the MPC in 24 air, which bodes well for ultimately getting into using 25 respirators in the place of air supplied suits; ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
30 1
secondly, to treat it much more like a routine work 2
environment.
Both of those factors play a substantial 3
role, again, in reducing the cost of cleanup.
4 At present, for every hour that is spent in l
5 containment, there is roughly 100 manhours spent outside
)
6 in support of that individual.
It is our hope that 7
through continued decon and cleanup, that-this can 8
become a routine work environment, and the support 9
ratios can go from 100 to one down into the 10 or 20 to 10 one, making a very substantial reduction in the clean up 11 costs, because the cleanup will be done in containment, 12 and if you have to have 10 people aside or 100 people 13 outside for each individual working inside, you can use
(.
14 up a lot of money, a lot of manhours.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Frank, what is the 16 DOE's relations with this experimental work that you 17 have just been describing?
18 HR. COFFHANs If I could characterize it 19 simply, I think we piggyback General Public Utilities in 20 this cleanup effort.
We provided input, suggestions and 21 advice basad upon experience at our various labs, but 22 General Public Utilities elected to proceed with this 23 and funded the bulk of this cleanup effort.
24 Our role was to provide advice, but more 25 importantly to collect what is to be learned.
In other ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 words -- How well did it work?
How does one technique 2
work versus another?
We write that up with the eye towards the health physics and radiation protection and 3
4 future applications.
5 General Public Utilities' primary interest is 6
to get it cleaned, restored, and to a decommissioned 7
stage.
8' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So the basic approach 9
is used, as far as the -- For example, hot water wash, 10 that is General Public Utilities ' approach.
11 MR. COFFMAN:
Yes.
We concurred in and 12 supported that.
I think that it was a very constructive 13 partnership.
Genera 1'Public Utilities was very
(
14 responsive to the suggestions-we had, and we feel very 15 good about that.
It went very smoothly.
16 If may go to the next subject.
Another item, 17 of course, of great interest and remaining interest is 18 exactly what does the core look like.
Many people 19 believe it is a rubble bed ; people believe that the 20 upper-plenum internals are velded together, that the 21 core is sagged, but no one has a picture of it.
The 22 high cost swingers have to do with what kind of 23 peripheral equipment and what approach you take to 24 removing that core.
25 So the Department of Energy funded to BCW, ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
32 I~
1 Babcock and Wilcox, roughly $1 million to develop a 2
camera, a one-and-a-quarter inch diameter camera that 3
can be manipulated and focused, and placed 36 feet down 4
in the core.
5 I would like at this point, if,we can, to take 6
a brief break and show you a five-minute experience on 7
Three Mile Island-1.
This was developed and placed on 8
the shelf last September, and then when the corrosion 9
question came up on the THI-1, General Public Utilities 10 elected to utilize this piece of equipment to 11 characterize the other problem.
12 HR. FEINROTHE To orient you, I have a picture 13 here.
let me point out what you are going to be seeing
(~
14 on the TT tape.
15 Initially, you will see a work crew up on top 16 of the work pla tf orm up here getting ready to remove a 17 lead screw from the control rod drive mechanism motor 18 tube, and removing that lead screw, which is about an 19 inch-and-a-half in diameter.
That is what leaves the 20 hole which the TV camera then gets inserted at this 21 point down 36 feet, first through the control rod drive 22 sechanism, then through the control rod guide tube.
The 23 pictures you will be seeing will be primarily of the top
(
24 of the fuel assembly.
25 May I have the next slide.
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1 (Slide.)
2 MR. FEINROTH:
What you will be seeing is that 3
TV camera'taking pictures of the top of the control rod 4
hub, and then through the openings where the control rod 5
elements are located, you will be able to see the tops 6
of individual fuel elements 36 foot down from the top.
J 7
You will also see a three-eighth inch set screw off on 8
the side, and you get an idea of the clarity that we 9
will be able to have when we get this into THI-2.
10 So let me just put this tape on for you.
The 11 first few minutes of the tape do not have audio, but in 12 about u minute or so you will have-the description of i
i 13 what you are seeing.
(
14 (File was shown.)
15 Can you see that?
That is the TV camera 16 itself.
There was a monitor, so that the operators 17 would know what they were seeing, right out on top of 18 the work platfora.
19 That is the top of the work platform.
This is 20 TNI-1, and they are getting ready to vent the control i
21 rod drive mechanise motor tube and pull the lead screw 22 out.
23 MR. FEINROTHs That is the removal of the lead
(
24 screw.
25 The sound will come on in about 30 seconds.
(...
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1 That is the bottom of the lead screw that 2
attaches to the control rod hub itself.
3 MR. FEINROTH:
This device has, in addition, 4
the space age property of being a digital device rather 5
than an analogue device.
You can use digital 8
enhancement techniques on it.
I saw another one of the 7
tapes, and they had.gone back and done some enhancement 8
on it.
There is a very large amount of information that 9
you can extract, more than just a glimpse of.this sort.
10 I think the technique has a good deal of 11 promise for an early glimpse inspection, at a glimpse at 12 the unit-2 core.
13 NH. COFFMANs I think this, by example, to me
(
14 at least, shows the value of the safety research and 15 development activities.
This was a camera system 16 developed to examine the THI-2 core damage, a quick look 17 exam.
The spin-off, although not intended, I think 18 everyone was glad that the camera was there and the 19 public utility could make a quick exam of the corrosion 20 associated with the THI-1 core.
This is just the kind 21 of learning experience that I think makes this Federal 22 investment very worthwhile.
23 Again, I would like to come back to the i
24 slides.
25 (Slide.)
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1 HR. COFFHAN:
The bottom bullet, I guess, is 2
the one that I want to mention.
We hope that pictures 3
vill be taken of the THI-2 core damage this July.
For t
4 the first time, General Public Utilities and the S
recovery contractor will get a good look at what the top 8
of the core region is really like.
I think this will 7
give a lot of input as to whether more cost effective 8
approaches to early core removal can be pursued.
9 May'I have the next vievgraph.
10 (Slide.)
11 CHAIRHAN PAllADINO:
Do you intend to go into 12 each of the control rods?
13 HR. COFENANs My understanding is that ther 14 in tend to go into one, then ther intend to work their 15 way across, depending on the difficulties that they run 16 into.
In other words, if you get down there and you 17 can't get in, then you would move out.
My understanding 18 is that they were planning to look at three or four 19 control rod.
20 HR. FEINROTH It really depends on what they 21 see and what they learn.
There is a tremendous degree I
22 of uncertainty as to whether even they will be able to 23 get the first one they try out.
So the plan is not to
(
24 count too much on necessarily getting the first lead 25 screw out, but work your way around until you find the s
(
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1 access, and see as much as you can, and decide whether 2
you need to see more or not.
It has got to be tha t kind 3
of a step-by-step process.
4 MR. COFFMAN:
The things that will be learned 5
hopefully are shown on this slide, and really are 6
important for recovery support, namely:
7
-- What kind of tooling vill be required?
8
--Will the plenum be stuck to the top of the 9
core, or can it be removed.through routine techniques?
10
-- Is the fuel a rubble red, or are there 11 peripheral complete fuel assemblies that can be drawn 12 through a routine removal process?
13
-- Are we going to need a Pac-Man approach to i
14 go in and sort of gobble the core up in small pieces?
15 Areas of investigation include debris 16 deposition in the plenum area, and that is a concern 17 because if you have a lot of fuel up on the 18 upper-plenum, then you have got high radiation levels 19 and you have to change, you have to plug the canal 20 different.
It changes the way that you would do your 21 core removal.
The plenum condition, again, and the core 22 condition.
23 May I have the next slide.
24 (Slide.)
25 MR. COFFMAN I mentioned that there is a ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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37 l f
1 broad spectrum of opinion.
The reference opinion on the 2
core is-that the peripheral rods, most of them have 3
leaked in some way, based upon the nobel gases that were 4
released, and that the zirc is embrittled.
5 It is believed that some of the control rods 6
and spacet grids have melted, particularly in the 7
central region, and that the instrument tubes in the 8
central region have failed.
9 There is a feeling that there is some 10 distortion and local melting possible and that the upper 11 plenum assemblies may be fused to some of the upper-end 12 fi t t'ing s.
We simply won't know until we take the 13 picture.
(
14 As I mentioned, General Public Utilities, the 15 Department of Energy, and the Nuclear Regulatory 16-Commission,. working jointly together, signed principles 17 of agreement and the memorandum of understanding to 18 remove the complete core as soon as it is available.-
19 The Department of Energy's intention is to 20 ship that core to the test area north in Idaho, and at 21 that point to pull out and archive the most interesting 22 samples, and to ship them to various hot cell facilities 23 at our various national laboratories, and to leave the 24 balance of the core in interim stage in the water basin 25 and test area north for a period of three to five years ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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1 until that research program is completed.
2 At that time, depending on whether there is a 3
reprocessing capability and the economics at the time,
(
4 the core will either be shipped to an interim storage 5
facility, such as retrievable storage, to the 6
repository, or to a reprocessing plant to recover the 7
approximately $50 million of yellowcake and separate a
work unit values remaining in the core.
9 May I have the next slide.
10 MR. FEINROTH4 The next slide is a viewgraph 11 entitled " Future Prospects."
12 HR. COFFHANs This probably is the point that 13 we should go for departure and discussing your
(
14 questions. -
15 The bottom line here is that we intend to have 16 the waste packages of f-site within the next 12 months.
17 Depending on when we can get to the purification 18 desineralizers, they would come out within the next one 19 to two years.
20 General Public Utilities hopes to do this 21 ea rly core exam through a lead screw opening in July.
22 GPU and Bachtet working together, with us participating 23 in a small way, are seeking to get the polar crane 24 operational, which is important if you have to do 25 missile fuel lifts and head-lifts.
It is hopeful that ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
39
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1 if things go well, the polar crane can be operational 2
late this fall or winter.
It is also possible, of 3
course, that things will go worse than that, maybe or i
\\
4 maybe not.
5 It is slso our hope that if those stages go 6
well, we can be into the plenum and into a fuel removal 7
activity by mid-1983.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
If everything goes 9
well, that is, the program that you have laid out and 10 adequate f unding is provided, what is your estimate for 11 the range of time, given the uncertainties that you have 12 mentioned withe respect to the shape of the core, or the 13 shape of the core?
5 14 What is the range of time that you would see 15 for actually having the core removed?
16 HR. COFFMANa Again, it is* hard to guess, not 17 knowing whether it is welded and gunked up.
18 COHNISSIONER AHEARNEa I understand.
l 19 HR. COFFMANs Whether you have to jackhammer 20 it apart.
But if we get to the point of being into fuel 21 removal activities, and if General Public Utilities does 22 get continuation of funding through 1983, then my guess 23 would be that the bulk of the core could be removed 24 within a year af ter you start.
That is a personal 25 opinion, and it is an opinion assuming that things work ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 well.
2 COMM'ISSIONER AHEARNE:
So you wou'.d say that 3
the bulk might be removed by mid-19 84 7
/
4 MR. COFFMANs I think that is technically 5
possible, yes.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO The core?
7 NR. COFFMAN:
I am talking about the fuel 8
material, and that is different from taking out all the 9
-- You are going to have debris and gunk on everything 10 from the port valve to your steam generator.
There is 11 debris there.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
From 1984 to 1986.
13 MR'. COFFMAN:
The-bulk of the core, which I
(
14 think the heart of your safety concern, I think that 15 could be removed within a year.
The cleanup and 16 restoration to a point of refit might be two or three 17 years thereafter.
18 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
But it is possible, you 19 think that we might get the core out by mid-19847
, 20 MR. COFFNAN:
If things go well, and I must 21 profess that this is a personal opinion and I am an 22 optimist.
23 Let me say tha t the things that General Public 24 Utilities has undertaken to date, I think have gone very 25 well.
The activities to remove the EPICOR liners have i
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
41 4
4 s
f' 1
gone well.
The operation of the submerged demineralizer 2
system proceeded very well and faster than scheduled.
3 With contamination in the water beyond design, the decon 4
experiment went very well.
We are now in the process of 5
cleaning up the recirculating cooling w a t.e r.
S So past experience to me has shown tha t the 7
problem is not quite as difficult as sometimes we plan.
8 It is my personal opinion that that good experience can 9
continue right through core removal.
It is a question 10 of resolve as much as it is a matter of money.
11 CONHISSIONEB BOBERTS.
What is the status of 12 the polar crana?
13 HR. COFFMANL The polar crane, there is 14 funding set aside-by General Public Utilities, and we i
15 have money set aside to participate in that, to inspect 16 the polar crane.
17 Obviously, the rigging, the cabling has melted 18 and the electrical contacts have melted from the 19 hydrogen burn in the upper-dome.
Such things as the 20 brakeshoes will have to be replaced.
The real question 21 is whether or not the motors have to be replaced, and 22 just how much refit has to be done..
23 Perhaps that is a good e'xsmple to talk about 24 in terms of cost and schedule.
A ' decision must be made 25 whether the crane must be recertified for full lift l
'(
P ALDERSo.4 REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
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1 capacity.
If you don 't go for full ' certification, in my 2
opinion there is a faster path to getting to the point 3
of lifting the missile shields and removing the head.
i 4
If you take an extremely conservative approach that it 5
must be conducted as if it were an operating reactor, thengthe times could stretch.
8
'7i So I think it takes an approach -- If I can F
an analogy.
To me it is like a game of pickup 9
sticks, and no amount of planning will determine exactly 10 how the cleanup will be conducted, but it will be a 11 matter of walking around the. problem, finding the path 12 of least resistance to simplif ying and cleanup.
13 It is an analytical problem.
It is somewhat
(
14 of a demolition and decontamination project.
It is not 15 a construction project, and cannot be approached as 18 such.
That is the spirit of what I have been trying to 17 sa y.
18 Again, the path is not clear to a full lu'nded 19 budget profile, and all participants must pursue' this 20 not waiting for full funding, but attempting to live 21 year bT year with the limited funds we have.
We got an 22 awful lot done this past year with less money than we 23 originally asked for, and met most if not all of our 24 critical milestones, pa rticularly in the area of healtn 25 and safety.
l l
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1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Frank, wh en you say,
2 "our," "we got more done in our," are you talking about 3
DOE 7
~
4 MR. COFFEANs I am really referring there, and 5
perhaps I am professing a pride in what General Public 6
Utilities has done.
I am really speaking there of what 7
General Public Utilities has accomplished.
Again, I 8
must stress that we have piggybacked this effort, but 9
the bulk of the monies have been General Public 10 U tilit'ies ' monies.
We have been the learners and it advisors, if you will, of the process.
12 The accoeplishments that have been made in the 13 last year, as I mentioned, the SIDs, and the upper-core
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14 removal, and the decon experiment, are principally 15 General Public Utilities' activities.
We funded the. RCD 16 parts of it, but they were conducted well and on f ast 17 schedule by General Public Utilities.
So I think that 18 it bodes well for the future.
19 COMMISSIONER ASSElSTINE Is that also going 20 to be the case of core removal, Frank ?
Or do your 21 contractors basically do that work?
22 NR. COFFEANa That, again, would be done by 23 General Public Utilities' recovery contractor under 24 their direct management.
We would be advisors to that 1
l 25 and would provida only the RCD portions of the funding.
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1 Again, I think there have been management 2
improvements that have been put into place in terms of 3
tightening up the team, tightening up the approach by 4
General Public Utilities and the recovery contractor.
F You must recognize that tneir insurance does 6
run out in 1983, and that in lieu of 1606 getting passed 7
through the House, the other presently pro vided for 8
optional revenues are associated with THI-1 startup, and 9
the Public Utility Commission revenues.
10 If I could have the next vievgraph.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARME:
Could you go back to 12 the slide.
13 MR. C3FFMAN:
The vievgraph.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa No, this is a slide.
15 Here we go.
18 MR. COFFMANs Again, the PUC rate settlement 17 phase two is contingent on the unit-1 restart, and the
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18 unit-2 funds can only be released af ter there is an NRC 19 to restart and there is 35 oercent power for 100 20 consecutive hours.
21 May I have the next one.
22
( Slid e. )
23 MR. COFFMAN This restart, of course, is 1
24 contingent upon the steam generator tube refit, and the 25 psychological stress studies.
Our guestimates of ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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restart are January of 1983.
In our opinion, in lieu of 2
something changing fundamentally on the financial 3
question, this restart is critical to the revenue 4
picture for THI-2.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs I guess on the second 6
point you make under the restart contingent upon, I 7
would prefer to put it as' a resolution of the 8
psychological stress issue.
9 MR. COFFRANs At this point, I would be happy to to respond to your questions.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Let me ask you two 12 questions.
I know I as on the same point.
13 In 1983,you say, that GPU is going to run out 14 of money.
Will we have a problem at th'at time?
15 HR. COFFEAN Yes.
The Department of Energy 's 16 budget of approximately $30 million will continue in 17 fiscal year 1983.
So our portion will continue at the 18 level of effort.
However,my understanding is there is 19 roughly 560 million of insurance and roughly $40 million 20 of that will be used during calendar year 1982.
So in 21 calendar 193 or fiscal year 1983, either one, the 22 insurance money run money runs out.
In lieu of 23 so me thing to replace that, the current level of effort 24 and the current level of progress will, indeed come to a 25 stop and indeed we will be in a financial pickle.
l l
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CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Getting back to the point 2
that bothered me at the very beginning, when you implied 3
that funding really wasn't a problem, and it is going to 4
be misintarpreted.
Everybody relaxes and says, S
"Everything is solved, and it really is not fundino."
6 Yet, I think it is.
7 We are managing to make significant progress 8
in the past year because of the money spent in planning 9
and slowly getting to this point with the submerged 10 demineralizer and the EPICOR system.
But if we leave 11 the imp ression that the funding is going away as a 12 prob'len, and that is the little bit I got.
I admit I 13 did it on hasty reading, but it certainly came through 14 to me.
15 I urge you that in making whatever statements 16 you feel are appropriate, make them so that they might 17 not be misinterpreted.
t 18 HR. RUSHE Mr. Chairman, I think your point 19 is well taken in that if we created that impression, we 20 certainly did not intend to.
21 I think that maybe at a f uture meeting it 22 might be worthwhile considering having a somewhat 23 broader participation in a briefing session of this 24 sort, which is informational in character rather than 25 decisional in character.
ALDERSoN REPoR'1NG COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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I think that we are in a relatively poor 2
position to be as explicit about some of these things as 3
would be interesting for you and for us.
We did not 4
come with that intent.
5 I think we should be careful not either to 6
presume we are better informed than we are, or to give 7
the impression that events that have been set in motion 8
are any less urgent than we thought they were two months 9
or three months or six months ago, when I think 10 considerable attention was placed by Members of 11 Congress, the Governor, the Secretary and you, and the 12 White House itself on this issue.
So we would be very 13 careful to try to cvoid the impression that everything 14 is all right.
15 I think you take the snapshot, as Frank said, 18 today, and if you make a presumption about next year, 17 then the funding question becomes a less crucial one 18' than we might have thought, but it must be what has been 19 said, and that itself may become a very crucial 20 question.
21 We would urge the Congress, and all of us to 22 pursue the course you outlined in your letter, to move 23 as vigorously as we can to get that waste material and 24 get the core off the island.
25 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Then do you see ways that ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.V' WMHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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we could accelerste this, given a reasonable amount of 2
money, and I almost said, without money concerns.
3 MR. RUSHE:
If you were on the hill this 4
morning, you would certainly have thought about money 5
concerns.
O CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I as aware of the money 7
concerns.
8 MR. RUSHE:
I doubt if any of us could put a 9
very precise estimate on what some additional income or 10 money would actually do.
Unfortunately, we don't live 11 in an environment where we can define an alement and 12 seek funding for that eles'ent, both because of the 13 definition of the project and because of the
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14 availability of money.
15 I think that the attitude that you have 16 expressed, the emphasis that you have expressed toward 17 making funding available to be sure that it is not the 18 limiting parameter is an important objective to strive 19 for.
20 There are perhaps other ways and other 21 circumstances in which, if they could be made to exist, 22 money might be a more fruitful parameter in terms of 23 accelerating things.
But we don't have the option to 24 change some of those circumstances or at least not 25 change them very fast.
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1 I think we do ourselve, and we do the utility, 2
and we do the public an injustice if we give the 3
impression that we can make big changes very fast in
\\
4 this circumstance, that is in what f unding could do or 5
What we could do with respect to the license or the 8
non-license activity.
Those are just not options that 7
are appropriate to consider.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO I thought that it might 9
be appropriate to ask Mr. Bernie Snyder, in charge of to our TNI cleanup, if he had any comments or initial 11 ramctions.
I don't want to put on the spot necessarily, 12 Bernie.
13 COHHISSIONER AHEABNEa But what is what you.
(
14 get paid for 2
15 (General laughter.)
18 MB. SNYDEBs My reaction is similar to yours, 17 Chairman Palladino, and commissioner Ahearne's with 18 regard to the funding question.
19 It is my understanding, and let's characterize 20 it only as that, that GPU is spending at about half the 21 ra te that they could effectively utilize up there, and 22 whether that necessarily means that the clean-up is 23 going at half the rate that it could is open to some 24 speculation.
l 25 Clearly there are areas in the plant, and I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 can cite some examples, where more money would get vaste 2
of f a lot faster.
Not necessarily the abnormal vaste, 3
but there is some number, quite a large number actually,
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4 of lov level EPICOR liners that have been sitting there 5
that is one example now -- that have been sitting 6
there since the first of the year that were the 7
polishing resin beds from the SDS operation.
There are 8
quite a few of those that have been sitting there for 9
lack of funds to move them, and that is the only 10 impediment to my understanding.
11 I think, in another area, the plant 12 demineralizers that we have been concerned about since 13 last year, there could have been considerable progress k
14 made on the-part of GPU had there been adequate funds 15 for that.
16 There is some movement in that area now to 17 remove those plant demineralizer, which are the recond 18 largest source of radioactivity in the plant, the core, 19 of course, being the largest source.
20 It is hard to quantify it, and I agree with 21 Ben, here, that perhaps GPU should speak f or themselves 22 on this.
But I certainly have the strong impression, 23 and I know from Link Barrett, who is very close to the 24 situation up there, that a lot more work could be done 25 given no funding limitations, and could be very ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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1 productive and effective us of those funds.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I know that it is not 3
possible to plan for everything, but is there planning 4
that can be done, going on at a rate that you think is 5
reasonable in light of our desi e to get that place 8
cleaned up as soon as possible?
7 MR. SNYDER:
No.
I think the planning, the' 8
engineering of the jobs is basically keeping pace with 9
the ability to do physical work.
I don't think one is 10 ahead of the other in my way of thinking.
11 CONNISS10NER AHEARNE That was the impression 12 that I had over the last many months, I am sorry to 13 say.
I 14 MH. C3FFNANs Mr. Chairman, maybe I should '
15 recap on the-spirit of my comments.
I didn't want to 18 imply, and perhaps I did mislead in the early 17-paragraphs, in saying that there was not a need or an 18 ability to use additional financial resources.
19 In the spirit of the example that you brought 20 up, the SL-1 accident in which the problem was handed in 21 a couple of years, my experience has been, on every 22 cleanup or decontamination or accident, wh ether it is 23 the Rocky Flats incident or accident, or what it is, 24 that the resolve of all the participants to go and solve 25 the problem regardless of the amount of money has been ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
52
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1 at least as important, if not predominant over the 2
amount of money.
3 The thing that I want to caution is that we do
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4 not get preoccupied with whether we have $100 million or 5
$150 million next year.
I do think that we need more 6
than we have, however, much progress has been made this 7
year with a lot less money than we were able to put on 8
the plate.
That commitment and resolve by all the 9
affected participants will be what makes a major portion to of this cleanup effort proceed and be successful.
11 The decisions, the innovations, the 11 discussions that we had to take the abnormal wastes, to 13 work out a resolution of the spent core issue are 14 something that we did without going back to Congress and 15 saying, "We need another $20 million."
We made a 16 resolution to find out how to do that.
17 We have also conducted a lot of tasks which 18 initially were costed at I million, and we decided that 19 we had less than that, but that we were going to do it 20 anyway.
We did it, and we did it with the money we 21 had.
22 The only point I want to make is not that we 23 don't need more money, but only that money is not 24 enough.
It is certainly a suf ficient condition, but not 25 a necessary condition.
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400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 o
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CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
Appreciate your point.
2 MB. C3FFMAN:
That is the spirit of my 3
comments.
i 4
CHAIRNAN PALLADINO:
As a matter of f act, I 5
think the point of our letter was that there hasn't been 6
enough resolve to cope with the problem, money being the 7
incidental outward appearance of that resolve.
j 8
MR. COFFMAN:
Yes.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I certainly am heartened
)
to by the progress that has been made.
However, I would 11 urge us not to rest on our laurels,even though maybe 12 they are modest laurels, and we should continue to work 13 as expeditiously as possible in cleaning up that core.
14 COHHISSIONER ASSELSTINEa Mr. Chairman, along 15 those lines, there is one other question I want to ask 16 on the financing element.
17 Given the fact, from what you seem to 18 indicate, the licensee will be in a position to start 19 working on removing the core around the middle of 1983, 20 and given the fact that the insurance money runs out at 21 the end of 1983, is it really realistic or perhaps even 22 prudent to expect that the core removal would begin in 23 the absence of some arrangement that is going to assure 24 the money to complete the job?
25 Is that something that you start unless you l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 know you are going to have the money to complete it; or 2
does the financing problem then become a limiting factor 3
in being able to get the core out?
I 4
MR. COFFMAN:
Clearly, in that case, the 5
financing would be the limiting f actor.
By the same 6
token, if actions are not taken this year to upgrade, 7
restore, and fix the polar crane, it doesn't matter how 8
much money you have next year, you cannot proceed with 9
core removal.
10 So it takes a commitment.
Even with the 11 uncertainty in future funding, it takes a commitment to 11 proceed now as if it will come, and as if the problem 13 will be solved.
(
14 CONHISSIONER ASSElSTINEs I appreciate that.
l 15 But don't we reach a point,- presumably next year, where-16 you get to the point where even if you proceeded on the 17 assumption that you will have the money at that point, 18 you don't go beyond that particular point unless you 19 have the funding in hand?
l 20 HR. COFFHANs Surely.
21 MR. SNYDER:
Certainly, we have thought 22 through that one a little bit ourselves, and I would be 23 very reluctant to agree, from the NBC poin t of view, to 24 start something like that knowing that you couldn't s
25 finish it.
I think you would want to have the money in ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, W ASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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the bsnk before you started the core removal.
e 2
COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
So that, in essence, 3
puts a f airly pracise time period on when there has to 4
be a solution to the financial problem, or an assured 5
source of continued funding for the cleanup, doesn't 6
it?
7 HR. COFFEAN I think it does, yes, sir.
^\\
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The resolve to go after
)
9 it and to get the parties together was part of the 10 motivation behind my letter to Mr. Meese.
11 Could I ask Bernio one question.
How are we 12 doing on the paperwork, the technical analyses tha t need 13 to be done to certify and approve the polar crane and 1
(
14 then the other things that NBC has to approve?
l 15 MR. SNYDERs We have reviewed the crane 16 question, in particular the crane qualification 17 question,and have given them a letter recently in which 18 we have given them the option of the method in which 19 they would qualif y, and did not specify that it needs to 20 be qualified in a way that an. operating plant would have 21 to be qualified, fo r example, making it to tally 22 restrictive.
23 We gave them that option to come back, 24 considering LARA considerations because it would 25 require, for example, bringing in tons of material to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
56 1
test the crane.
We think that possibly a static test 2
would be adequata, and we have so informed them.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Are there any other 4
crucial points?
Maybe I will phrase it a different 5
way.
Are we on top of the other key points that require 6
decisions, so as to expedite the cleanup?
7 HR. SNYDER:
Yes.
I think our track racord, 8
if I may say so, has been very good in that we haven't 9
been on the critical path once the PEIS was published.
10 We were clearly on the critical path until that point.
11 NH. RUSHEL Hr. Chairman, I would like to 12 thank you for the opportunity of meeting with you 13 today.
I hope that it has been valuable enough that
(
14 sometime in the next several sonths, you might consider 15 it worthwhile again, I am sure that the Secretary would 16 stand ready.
17 If some occasion arises between then, in which 18 you would think it worthwhile, we would value view in 19 this informal environment, and we would appreciate the 20 opportunity to discuss it with you.
21 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
We thank you for coming.
22 I think that it has been very valuable.
We will still 23 continue to push and to pull and to help carry our 24 weight, to see that this thing is expedited as much as t
25 possible.
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NB. RUSHE We will do our best, too.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Thank you very much.
3 We vill stand adjourned.
4 (Whereupon, at 2:50 p.m.,
the Commission 5
adjourned.)
6 7
8 l
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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i NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
{
This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the u
COMMISSION MEETING in the matter of:
PUBLIC MEETING - Briefing on TMI-2 CLEANUP Date of Proceeding:
May 26, 1982 Decket Number:
Place of Proceeding:
Washington, D. C.
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript the:ect ':r the file of the Ccesission.,
l Patricia A. Minson Official Reporter (Typed) e
~'
. C - -f _ ' l,
Q= /> A ~_ _ _1--
official Reporter (Signature) l l
l
__