ML20052B500
| ML20052B500 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 04/01/1982 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19277A827 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 SECY-82-130, NUDOCS 8205030064 | |
| Download: ML20052B500 (32) | |
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W " 2 REGULATORY COKCSSION m
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.::a COMMISSION MEETING
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. In the Mattar of:
DISCUSSION OF FREQUENCY OF EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS EXERCISES
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PUBLIC MEETING 9
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f April 1, 1982' PAGES:-
1 - 30 DATE-f R:
Washington, D. C.
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 DISCUSSION OF FREQUENCY OF EMERGENCY 5
PREPAREDNESS EXERCISES l
6 7
PUBLIC MEETING l
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10 Nuclear Regulatory Commission, i
11 Room 1130 1717 H Street, N.W.
12 Washington, D.C.
13 Thursday,. April 1,
1982 14 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 15 2:05 p.m.
18 BEFORE:
17 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner 18 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 19
- ' STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABLE:
20 S. CHILK, SECY 21 L. BICKWIT, OGC F. HEMICK, OPE 22 W.
DIBCKS, EDO B. GRIMES, ICE 23 R. KRIMM, FEMA R. DE YOUNG, ICE t
24 M. JAMG0CHIAN, RES W. OLMSTED, OELD 25 Y.
ADLER, FEMA
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ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
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DISCLAIMER This. is air unofficial transcript of a. meeting of the United. States NucTear Regulatory Comission held on April i. 1982-in the Comission's offices at 1717 H Street,. N. W.,. Wasnington, D. C.
The meeting was open to public attendance and observation.
This transcript
- has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited,. and it may contain inaccuracies The-transcript is. intended. solely for general infomationa.1 pureoses As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the forinal or infonnal
' record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in
.thir. transcript do not necessarily reflect final determinatioiis or
- p ; beliefs.
Ho pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in r
any proceeding as-the result of or addressed to any statement or argument.
contained. herein,. except as. the Commission may auth'orize..
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2-3 1
ZE2CEERIEgs 2
(2:05 p.m.)
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Good afternoon, ladies 4 and gentlemen, the meeting will please come to order.
5 The purpose of this meeting is to discuss a proposed 6 amendment to the Commission't rules with regard to the 7 frequency of amergency preparedness exercises.
8 After being briefed on this matter on February 9 4 th, the Commission directed the staff to draf t a paper i
10 on the subject, SECY-81-629, to include two alternatives s
11 to redraf t the paper, SECY 629, and to include two 12 alternatives > oner the NRC staff and FEMA's proposal to 13 reduce the required frequency of exercises from annual 14 to every two years; and two, a proposal to continue to 15 require the annual exercise unless FEMA finds that all 16 the elements of the emergency plan have been exercised 17 satisf actorily, and that, therefore, a two-year period 18 could elapse.
19 The redrafted paper SECY 82-130, is before us 20 now as an affirmation item.
Following the February 4th 21 meeting, at which we gave this direction to the staff, 22 the majority of the Commission requested reconsideration 23 of course of action agreed upon at that meeting.
24 Accordingly, it seems to me we have three basic options.
25 One, we can consider the paper before us on ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 WRGINIA AE S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. M24 (202) 564-2348
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4 1 its merits and decide whether or not to issue the 2 proposed rule, and I would propose we do that.
If we do l
3 not wish to issue the proposed rule, we can consider
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l 4 other options to adjust our emergency planning rules.
l 5 Or third, we could leave the frequency of emergency I
6 preparedness exercises situation as it is.
7 If the Commission will agree to proceed to i
8 discussion of the paper, then I would propose that that 9 is what we do.
And I will let Mr. Grimes call out the 10 f eatures of it, and then turn to questions and decide 11 what we are going to do about it.
12 MB. GBIMES I have only a brief 13 presentation.
We did meet with the Commission on 14 February 4th and went over the substance of the rule.
15 The principal change before you now is the inclusion of l
16 another alternative.
I will just summarize the two j
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17 alternatives by reading f rom page 14 of the enclosure, 18 which contains the staff proposal.
19 Alternative A would state that the exercises 20 or components of exercises -- I am sorry.
It starts on 21 Fige 13 with item B (1), Alternative _A would say that 22 every two years, an exercise would be held with full 23 participation.
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24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa I am glad you are 25 having difficulty.
I ALDER 8oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
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1 (Laughter.)
2 HR. GRIMES:
Never start in the middle of a 10
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3 CFR rule.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is difficult to 5 start in the beginning.
6 HR. GRIMES:
Let me do it without looking at 7 the paper, it is easier.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is an advantage 9 the readers would not have.
10 (Laughter.)
11 HR. GRIHESt The rule would provide that in 12 alternative A, every two years a full-scale or full 13 participation exercise would be required which would
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14 involve both state and local governments, along with the 15 licensee, in a full response type of exercise.
And 16 alternative A would also have the caveat that if the 17 state requested a more frequent exercise than every two 18 Years, or if FEM A recommended to the NRC and NRC found 19 it appropriate to'have an exercise or part of an 20 exercise more frequently than ever two years, that that 21 would have to be done.
22 Alternative B, which is the new siternative 23 before you, would have licensees and state and local 24 authorities planning to do exercises which would 25 exercise the state on a once-a-year frequency fully, and ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 6 6 M K G 21fG Zi1E" 3 F "3
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1 would then have a provision which, if FEMA found that 2 the exercise was satisfactorily conducted, would allow j
3 FEMA to recommend to the NRC and the NRC to grant an 4 extension of up to two years until the next exercise.
5 Those are the two principal alternatives in 6 the' paper.
We have an enclosure 5 of the paper before 7 you, also a letter from Mr. Lewis Giuffrida, Director of 8 the FEMA, dated 8 March 1982, which would endorse the 9 alternative A approach. And we have a representative 10 from the Federal Emergency Management Agency here who 11 would like to make a brief statement in that regard.
12 I would say that I have also received a number 13 of phone calls from concerned states since the last 14 meeting and have met with state and local officials and 15 get the continued feeling that they believe it is 16 important to provide some relaxation of the frequency.
17 But I also get the feeling that it is even more 18 important that they have something against which ther 1g can plan.
20 Ve have several states with many reactors in 21 them that are now t,rying to grapple with what their 22 schedule over the coming months is to be, and we 23 certainly need to have in mind the need for them to have 24 something to work with, whe the r it be the existing rule 25 or a changed rule.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2346
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1 I would like to introduce Mr. Vernon Adler.
2 Mr. Thomas indicated to me his regrets at not being able 3 to be here today because of a congressional commitment.
t 4 Vernon?
5 MR. ADLER:
Thank you.
I guess if there is 6 one piece of paper that I look to to focus the issue as 7 best and as neatly as possible, it is the letter from 8 Mr. Giuffrida to you, Nr. Chairman.
And I would call 9 your attention to only three sentences, not.because ther 10 are the most important, but because in a forum like this 11 they may help us to crystallize our focusing in most 12 simply.
13 One is item 4 on the first page and I will 14 just simply read these three sentences.
We say that, 15 "In consultation with NRC, FEMA will determine the level 16 and frequency for remedial drills and exercises."
And 17 here, the emphasis is~on correction," upgrading, 18 improving, not so much testing for a passing or failed 19 grade.
That is not the intent of this exercise, as you 20 well know.
21 Then in the middle of the first paragraph on 22 thessecond page, while this -- referring to the biennial 23 exercise in lieu of annual -
"While this may reduce the 24 quantity of the full-scale exercises, it most certainly 25 vill improve the overall quality of preparedness by ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
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8 1 allowing state and local governments to work on problem 2 areas identified in the scheduled exercises, these being 3 on the biennial schedule, in much more depth than an 4 annual interval allows or may allow."
5 And here, Hr. Giuffrida is referring to the C f act that periodic drills emphasizing the direction and 7 control, radio monitoring and other key elements 8 normally exercised in a full-scale exercise will be 9 evaluated and conducted at some other f requency than the 10 biennial.
11 And lastly, I want to emphasize in the next to 12 the last paragraph, Hr. Giuffrida, in talking about the 13 delegation of authority that FEMA has,
"'de do sincerely 14 believe that it is appropriate for the Nuclear 15 Begulatory Commission to rely on FEM A's best judgment in 18 this closely-related area of mutual concern."
And by
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17 this statement, we are saying that we have worked 18 closely with state and local governments in the totality 19 of the challenge for comprehensive emergency management 20 in which radiological emergency preparedness is one, but 21 the one most important part.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Does that conclude your i
23 remarks?
1 24 HR. ADLER:
Yes, sir.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Okay.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, i
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2346
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
May I ask Mr. Adler a 2 question?
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3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Yes.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The copy of the letter 5 we have has an additional note on the bottom which 6 essentially says the NRC staff has discussed the letter 7 with the FEMA staff and understands the above points are 8 being interpreted as f ollows.
Are you familiar with 9 that?
10 MR. ADLER:
Yes, sir.
These are points of 11 clarification.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Could you go over them?
13 MR. ADLERs I would be happy to.
If you will
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14 turn your attention to item 3 in the first page of the 15 letter f rom Mr. Giuffrida to Chairman Palladino, let's 16 $Nst raad through it rathe" trtdully to the fourth 17 line.
Each local jurfe( st!
. which has a facility 18 within its boundaries er with10 ten miles, referring to 19 the'EPZ, of its boundaries, shall fully exercise its 20 plan jointly with the f acility.
And here we are talking 21 about the local organizations.
And at least enough of 22,the state plan -- this thereby relieves the state in 23 this language of being fully committed to a ' test of its 24 entire plan.
At least enough of the state plan to test l
25 direction and control functions no less frequently than ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
10 1 every two years.
It is apparent the direction and 2 control function is and must be maintained as a part of 3 the plan.
4 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
What parts of the state 5 plan would you envision, then, not being involved?
6 MR. KRIMMa Excuse me.
I am sorry, Mr.
7 Palladino.
I thought 2:30 was the meeting.
I am 8 representing Mr. Thomas, Chairman Palladino, I am sorry 9 I am. late.
10 MR. ADLER:
Would you be kind enough to repeat 11 your question?
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sure.
Mr. Adler had 13 just reread that additional clarification at point 3.
14 And er question was what part or parts of the state plan-15 would you envision not being needed to be tested under 1s this requirement?
17 MR. KRIMHz Do you want to answer that?
18 (Laughter.)
19 MR. ADLERs Without having that marvelous tone 1
20 in front of us, just from memory, sifting through to 21 pick out an area such as -- oh, I could visualize it not 22 being essential to test every school-related evacuation 23 plan.
There might, on a selective basis, be involvement 24 only at the local levels.
25 MR. KRIMM I might mention, for example, we
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11 1 could go back and test the alert notification system 2 which we are having to do now anyway because of the 3 sirens just coming online.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now, where did these 5 f ull exercises, the REP plan jointly with the f acility, 6 and at least enough of the state plan no less frequently 7 than every two years -- does that mean that the f ull 8 state plan -- is there any time limit when the full 9 state plan has to be tested?
10 MR. KRIMM4 Well, it has to be tested at least I
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11 once -- let's say there is only one plant.
It certainly l
12 would be tested at least once every two years.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Independent of this 14 notifica tion.
Would there be any requi-rement for the 15 local durisdiction to mesh with the full state plan?
16 MR. KRIMMs Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
On that occasion?
18 MR. KRIMMs It could be on that occasion.
I 19 think a great deal would depend on previous experiences 20 with the locals and so forth.
But most lik ely, if you 21 are talking about just where there is one plant in a 22 sta te -- is that where your concern is, or one facility?
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23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is an example of 24 it.
s 25 MR. KRIMM:
let us say Fort St. Vrain out in ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
12 1 Colorado, that you would be testing probably at the time 2 70u test the plan -- or test the state -- you would also 3 have to test the locals.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Are they subject to i
5 these rules, too?
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Well, they had a 7 request in for substantial modification.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Since you bring up 9 that example, 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Brian?
11 MR. GRIMES:
They are complying with the plan 12 and standards of the regulations which are also repeated 13 in NUREC-0654 So they are doing the planning and the 14 standards the same as all the other facilities.
There 15 have been relaxations on the size of the emergency 16 planning zone to five miles, and also, the augmenta tion 17 time suggestel by Table B-1 in NUREG-0654 have been 18 relaxed somewhat for the Fort St. Vrain facility.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY So we have a 20 accommodated them to some extent,"though.
21 HR. GRIMES:
Yes.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I just raised that 23 because you happened to pick that one.
Let me ask, has 24 our experience with this been so extensive and so 25 favorable that we ought to be switching over now?
I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
13 1 must say my own view is that the answer is no.
I am 2 surprised that you are pressing so hard on this point.
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3 I woul d expect that we would want to shift 4 over to a less frequency schedule at some point.
We are 5 really just getting into all this, and everyone -- we, 6 you, the states, the local jurisdiction -- is just-7 learning how to do all this.
It seems to me we ought to 8 go through it some more times before we say well, okay, 9 from now on let's just do it on a different basis and 10 emphasize the points l'n which we are not doing so well.
11 MR. KRIMM:
We have tested over 50 -- we have 12 done 50 exercises and, of course, we are going to be 13 doing o thers.
But I think our feeling is that we need 14 to concentrate more heavily on certain areas and go back
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15 and retest them.
16 Let me give you an analogy.
My background 17 really has been with the national flood insurance 18 program, and one of the things we do in order to make 19 flood insurance available to communities is to adopt 20 land use measures, which basically guide future 21 construction out of the flood plain, or require that 22 they be elevated. But we do periodically do checks in 23 the community to see how they are enforcing it and so 24 f orth.
Certainly, the good community you don't need to 25 go back to year af ter year, but you do have to go back ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, m
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i 14 1 to the recalcitrant community.
And even at some point 2 you have to threaten suspension.
you know, the 3
It is kind of the same thing 4 state is doing a good job, the local jurisdiction is 5 doing a good job, the exercises are going rather 6 smoothly; then there is really no need to go back so 7 frequently.
Those that are not doing so well', then you 8 should exercise on a much more regular basis.
9 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
When we went over the 10 list last time with Mr. Thomas, I think there was one 11 example that he gave of a case where he felt this 12 exercise had really gone swimmingly out of a great 13 number, so it isn't as if we have basically got the 14 thing under control, and there are' a few exceptions here 15 and there and sure, we don 't need to do it so often, as 16 I assume will be the case sometime in the future.
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17 least, I hope so.
18 MR. KRIMMa You do need the flexibility and 19 you may not need to have a full exercise.
Even a lot of 20 the places that have done excellently well you may not 21 have to have a full exercise next year..
You could get 22 by with a lesser partial exercise.
23 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
I understand that 24 there is a lot of concern, and in some cases, discomfort 25 about having these exercises as frequently as once a ALDER 8oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE.,5.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2345
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1 year.
But it is important business.
It is just a very 2 important pa rt of the whole safety apparatus -- the
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3 protection of the public.
And it seems to me that we 4 ought to go through it a few times and then we vill be 5 on a much better basis.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Have we been through it 7 more than once at any one f acility?
8 MR. KRIMHz I believe we have.
Do you know, 9 Vern?
10 HR. ADLER:
I believe LaSalle.
11 HR. GRIMES.
A better example would be the 12 Trojan f acility, I believe, which had an exercise last 13 March and before that, had an exercise in December of
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14 1979 with upgraded plans.
So that would be one.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Have any plants had 16 exercises more than twice?
17 MR. GRIMES:
Not under the upgraded' plans.
18 Under our rules which were put out in August of 1980.
1g CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s What are the motivations 20 that lead FEMA to suggest that we ought to relax the 21 frequency?
Is it the cost to the states, the cost to 22 FEMA?
23 HR. GRIMESa Well, you know all those things 24 pla y a part.
I believe that the major role or the major-25 concern is allowing flexibility to, let us say,
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ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGNA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345
16 1 concentrate more on the places that are not doing as 2 vell.
The way it is right now, an exercise is done.
It 3 may have been good, it may have been bad, but it is
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4 dif ficult to really follow through because the staff and 5 everybody is jumping on the next exercise coming up.
6 It is to try to make sure that every place 7 meets the highest possible standard for exercises.
And 8 those that are doing well or reasonably well would not 9'have to have a full exercise, they could have a partial 10 exercise.
And you would concentrate more of your 11 efforts on those areas that don't do so.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is there much turnover in 13 the people involved in these exercises during the course 14 of a year or two?
15 MR. KBIMMa As far as FEMA staff is concerned?
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What has been your 17 experience?
We have been through exercises t'vice in a 18 couple of places.
Were they essentially the same people 19 or have we found significant turnover?
20 MR. GRIMES 4 I would say in Arizona at one of 21 those two exercises at Trojan, my impression was that 22 generally the same actors were involved, although in one 23 case, the governor had changed.
24 (Laughter.)
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That does happen.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGNA AVE, S.W. WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Do we have any feel for 1
2 wha t frequency we have to have to make sure that the new r
3 people who came onboard have been exposed?
I don 't know 7
4 if we have enough experience --
5 MR. KRIMMs If you take a state like Illinois, i
6 the new people would be exposed very quickly.
In a 7 state like Colorado it might be, you know, two years.
8 But you could always get that person to participate in t
9 an exercise in another state.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Would FEMA be in a 11 position to know of major changes in personnel such as 12 -- well, even though we just exercised state X, we 13 realize things have changed and we ought to have an 14 exercise ?
15 MR. KRIMMs Yes.
To answer your question, we 16 would know when there are changes because we know it 17 through our regional offices, and the regional 18 assistant's committee.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Is there enough 20 continuity in the staff of FEMA to make sure that i
21 reverse frequency would be followed?
22 MR. KRIMM Yes.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Or that the exercises i.
24 would be followed if they were on reverse f requency.
25 MR,KRIMHz Yes, because you have -- you know, ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, CGWIN4A AR fiW.o WmT;TM M Ki?A4 FiTd M t
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18 1 basically there is not a lot of staff turnover.
Most 2 people are career people and are making a career out of 3 the government.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think it is probably 5 ture there is not a lot of turnover in your business for 6 many people and even for some of us in the sense of what 7 ve now think of our role. Would we consider it 8 acceptable for the NRC to exercise once every two years.
i 9 I would think not.
Yet, in a state like this, the 10 state, in an emergency, in many ways has a role which is 11 no less important than that of the NRC.
They are the 12 ones, in effect, responsible for public protection.
We i
13 give them advice but they are the ones who have to carry 14 it out.
15 MR. KRIMM But I think your annual testing is
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16 onsite, which --
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I mean testing our 18 Bethesda complex, you know, and our own capabilities in 19' communications and passing on of orders and so on.
I 20 don 't think we would consider it acceptable for that to 21 he done every two years.
22 MR. KRIMM:
But in the off-years, you see, 23 when you were not exercising, you could have drills.
24 You would have drills and other things.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes, it is not a
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ALDERSone REPoR11NG COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
19 1 matter of black and white.
I am just telling you how I 2 come down.
In the meantime, I had an opportunity to
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3 observe an exercise, and while I was impressed with how 4 people approached it and did their job, including the 5 volunteers nd so on, it seemed like it was something 6 tha t could profitably be repeated in a year.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Brian, can I ask you a 8 couple of questions?
In your paper you mentioned -- as 9 in the last version, you had a number of -- I am not 10 sure whether additions or clarifications.
Is that 11 correct?
12 For example, you were defining full 13 participation and partial participation, and also 14 introducing the ability to use site-specific control 15 room simula tors.
16 MR. GRIMES:
Yes, that is the same as the 17 version --
18 Conn 1SSIONER AHEARNE:
Those are additions to 1g the' current rule, is that correct?
20 MR. GRIMES:
Yes.
2t COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And the purpose is for 22 clarification?
23 MR. GRIMES:
Yes.
To make clear the degree of 24 participation required, particularly with respect to the 25 direction and control f unctions of the state that need ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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1 to be exercised with each of the counties.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And the concept of 3 bringing in the site-specific control room simulators?
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4 MR. GRIMES:
That is to make clear that that 5 would be an acceptable thing from the staff 's 8 viewpoint.
He have had some inquiries.
7 CHAIRMAN PAL 1ADIN0s In so saying, do you have 8 in mind that the simulator must be a full simulator, or 9 would you accept a mock-up?
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10 MR. GRIMES:
We had in mind a site-specific 11 full simulator, as if it was to be used for a control i
12 room.
L 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Of the quality that i
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14 would be used in operator training or qualification 15 exams, that level?
16 MR. GRIMES:
Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 'So that would, a t the 18 moment, be very few plants.
19 MR. GRIMES:
Yes.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEt You mentioned in this 21 alternative that you were proposing on -- I guess it is 22 alternative B'-- no, pardon me.
If FEMA recommends and 23 it is found appropriate by NRC -- what did you mean by 24 NRC finding it appropriate?
n 25 MR. GRIMES:
Well, general counsel pointed out
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l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
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1 at the last Commission meeting that he would prefer to 2 make it clear that NRC must make the finding -- the m
3 final finding, even though we rely heavily on the FEMA 4 recommendation to do so.
They are reluctant to make a 5 flat statement that would, in effect, regulate the 6 licensees by FEMA through our rule.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:.And why does that 8 concern also carry over to your having the state request 9 more frequent --
10 MB. CRIMES:
That had been discussed and it 11 was felt to be in preparation of the earlier version of 12 the rule, and we felt that we had agreement that it was 13 unique enough situation that th'e balance of the 14 situation would tolerate allowing the state to specify 15 an additional exercise, since it impacted heavily on 18 their resources, that it would be unlikely to impact on 17 the licensee.
It is a legal point, I guess, and one 18 that was discussed at the earlier time.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Maybe I ought to ask 20 counsel to expand.
The difficulty I was having is 21 drawing a contrast between, in one case -- this is in 22 the case where the alternative is you exercise every two 23 Yea rs.
And then it can be more of ten. It can be more 24 often, is case one. FEMA recommends that.
25 If FEMA recommends it, then NRC has to_ find it
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22 1 appropriata.
But at least the language here in case two 2 is the state can require the conduct of joint exercises
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3 with greater frequency.
4 MR. BICKWIT:
I have exactly the same 5 difficulty that you raise.
I just raised it in my 6 office.
Maybe there is an answer at the staff level, 7 but I don't know that answer and it does concern me.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Okay.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think some opportunity 10 for the NRC to exercise its prerogative ought to be 11 given.
12
.MR. BICKWITs We have some suggested language, 13 actually, which would say, "and determined by the NRC to i
14 be appropriate" right af ter the reference to "if 15 requested by the state in which the site is located."
16 MR. GRIMES:
We would certainly be amenable to 17 whatever suggestions general counsel might have in that 18 regard.
The point was discussed previously and it came 19 out ~ the other way.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In your cover letter 21 which you signed, I believe>, you say -- and this is 22 obviously out of context but I will still make a quote 23 -
"as a means of preserving the optimal frequency once 24 a year in those states that are villing and able to 25 participate that of ten."
This is page 2, the middle of
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23 f~
1 the paragraph, the big paragraph, down towards the end.
I 2 This is a point that was also I think made last time, so 3 I was just trying to reaffirm that you are saying that 4 the optimal frequency is once a year.
That is what I 5 read it to say.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Freudian slip.
7 (Laughter.)
8 MR. GRIMESs I think there are certainly 9 arguments to make.
A once-a-year exercise, if that was 10 --
l 11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Okay.
1 12 MR. GRIMES:
And I think the word is not all l
13 that ill-chosen..
A lot of the feedback I get from the 14 states is that the problems they have are not so much l
15 with their own organizations but convincing the local 1
16 governments that they should, indeed, exercise, and the l
17 b'alanc'e between trying to get them to p'articipate in a i
18 wholehearted f ashion and stepping over the line and 19 starting to drive them into participation.
f 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I have no further 21 questions.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I have two questions, one 23 of which you already asked and the other one is very 24 short.
If I can find it.
25 These points released in Mr. Giuf f rida 's s
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
24 1 letter, are they reflected in your proposal?
2 MR. GRIMES:
Yes, they are.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Including th e.
4 clarification?
5 MR. GRIMES:
Yes.
We believe General 6 Giuffrida 's letter is consistent with alternative A.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Any other questions?
I 8 was going to ask would you like to vote now on whether 9 or not we want to 10 MR. KRIMMa I am sorry for being late, but I l
11 would just like to -- and you may have covered it.
I 12 might mention that FEMA is planning to put out again for 13 proposed rriemaking Rule 350, which deals with 14 exercises.
And we had hoped to put this alternative A 15 as part of that ptoposed rule.
I thought it might be 16 helpf ul for you to know that.
Did you cover that
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17 already?
18 CH AIRMAN P ALLADINo t Well, not today.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs That was, I think, 20 understood.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s And what is the 22 consequence if we go one way and FEMA goes a different I
23 vay ?
24 MR. KRIMMs I just hope that does not happen.
_ 25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEr I would hope the same.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
25 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What would be the 2 complication ?
3 COHNISSIONER AREARNE:
We have a duo of 4 lawyers over there.
5 HR. BICKWIT:
If NRC's requirments for the 6 issuance of a license are not met, the Commission would 7 be required to deny the license.
8 CHAIRNAN PALLADIN04 Well, what would bother 9 me is that the state would say well, we are supposed to 10 listen to FEMA and we told the applicant unless that 11 state listens to us, you don't get a license.
]
12 HR. BICKWIT4 Well, FEMA may put out some 13 guidance to the states, but I think it is understood by
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v4 both FENA and the NRC that the NRC has to be the final 15 determiner if it gets an NRC license.
16 MR. KRIHM:
What I think we are looking for is
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17 that it would, I think, be worthwhile to put this out on 18 a proposal and, you know, get the comments back and see 19 how the general people feel.
It might be worth ~while.
20 HR. BICKWIT:
If the state and the licensee 21 followed the guidance of FEM A, then FEM A may be 22 recommending to the NRC that the license be issued.
But 23 if the NRC~ rules are not met, then the NRC would have to
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24 deny the license.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s What I was thinking ALDERSON REPORTING CotAPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2346
26 4
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j 1 about, if the states tend to lean toward what FEMA says, 2 the licensee is put in the middle between us and FEMA.
3 And then the licensee's leverage --
t 4
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well presumably, we 5 vill get around this and I think we are the ones who set i
6 the rules.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, I guess the 8 question before us is, does the Commission wish to issue 9 the order as included in SECY 82-130 for comment, and 10 with the understanding that this question about the j.
11 states having the privilege would be adjusted, as Mr.
i 12 Bickwit suggested.
All those in favor, indicate by 13 saying aye.
14 (Chorus of ares.)
i
)
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Those opposed?
]
16 (Chorus of nayes.)
5 17 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN6 "So I guess the motion l
18 f ailed.
i 1g COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would like to make a 20 comment.
My comment is simply to read my vote sheet 21 that I voted on back in November.
After years of i
22 neglect, energency planning and actual exercises were l
23 required by the NRC as a result of the TMI accident.
i l(
24 The rule has been in place less than one year, but we 25 are being requested to reduce the frequency of the i
s ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
27 1 exercises.
2 As anyone who has been involved in operations 3 knows, participating in an actual exercise shows i
4 veaknesses that were not discovered in plan reviews and 5 develops skills'that cannot be learned by reading.
l 8 There is no effective substitute.
State and local 7 governments have not yet gained adequate experience in 8 exercising emergency response plans.
Full participation 9 in annual exercises is the best method of identifying 10 problems.
11 According to SECY 629 which is the original 1? paper on this, quote, "The optimal frequency is once a 13 year." It is premature to relax the requirements to the 14 extent proposed in the SECY.
15 CONHISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't have a 16 statement on what John has said.
I would suggest that 17 ve return to the subject, say, a year from now, after we
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18 have gained a little more experience.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Well, I will make my 20 comment.
If this were the only kind of activity that 21 involved evacuation or preparedness in moving people out 22 as a result of problems in the vicinity, then I would be 23 more prone to say we ought to exercise it quite 24 frequently.
But there are many other opportunities to 25 get emergency personnel involved in actions involving ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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28 1 the moving of people, and I think as much is learned 2 there as in the specific case here.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I don't disagree that 4 there are these other situations.
All I know is that 5 the one case we really have to try to pull all of that 6 together, it did not work very well, and that was one of 7 the reasons that led us to put in the requirements.
And 8 just speaking personally,. I feel a strong obligation to 9 try to make sure, for myself, to try to make sure that 10 there is enough exp'erience built up.
11 I don't disagree with the idea that once you l
12 have built up a level that you have been, you don't have 13 to go through it as frequently.
I don't think we are on l
14 that plateau at all.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well then, we will not be 16 sending it out f or comment.
17 MR. GRIMES:
Could I make one comment, and 18 that is in response to Commissioner Gilinsky's comment 19, on revisiting this in about a year.
One possible option 20 might be to put one of these alternatives out for 21 comment with a proposed effective date of about a year 22 from now, which would have the benefit of getting 23 through the comment period and putting this in a 24 position at an earlier time to actually make that 25 decision, and it would also have the benefit of letting ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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29 i
1 i
that certainly 1 the states know that at some point, 2 for the next year they are frozen to the existing
{
3 schedule, but that at some point they might expect a 4 relaxation.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, not putting it 6 out for comment makes it clear to them they are frozen
[
7 in the current situation.
And I guess I would be more 8 interested myself in getting the comments af ter a little 9 bit more experience has been gained.
I don't view A
10 getting the comment period as being that formal,a 11 process.
I see your argument, Brian, but I would just 12 be more interested in the comments af ter experience is 13 gained.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, the other question 15 then is do we want to let the situation just remain as 16 it is, or do you want to take any other action at this 17 time?
The status quo would leave it at one year until 18 the Commission is ready to revisit it.
You have made ig the' suggestion we revisit it on the order of a year.
i 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That would certainly be i
21 fine with me.
I would agree.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Okay.
But for the time 23 being then, I gather we will proceed with the situation b
24 as it.is now.
Okay.
Anything else which is to be 25 discussed on this subject?
s ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, M-M
30 1
(No response.)
2 Okay, thank you very much.
3 (Whereupon, at 2:50 p.m.
the meeting was 4 ad.1ourned.)
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