ML20042C209
| ML20042C209 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 03/19/1982 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20042C210 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8203310031 | |
| Download: ML20042C209 (63) | |
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NUCLEAR REGUI.ATORT COMMISSION A
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COMMISSION MEETING
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PUBLIC MEETING BRIEFING ON NUCLEAR POWER PLANT SURVEY (INPO) l
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DATg.. March 19, 1982 PAayg 1 - 61 gg.
Washington, D. C.
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Telaphena: (202) 554-2345 8203310031 820319 PDR 10CFR PT9.7 PDR
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 BRIEFING ON NUCLEAR POWER PLANT SURVEY (INPO) 5 8
PUBLIC HEETING 7
Nuclear Regulatory Commission Room 1130 1717 H Street, N.W.
8 Washington, D. C.
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Friday, March 19, 1982 10 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 11 10:00 a.m.
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13 BEFORE:
14 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Commission Chairman 15 1
JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner 16 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 17 TH0HAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 18 l
19 20 STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABLE 4 l
21 FORREST REMICK, EDO 22 t
EUGENE P. (DENNIS) WILKINSON, INPO 23 PETER LYON, INPO r
24 ZACHARIAH T. PATE, INPO 25 ALDERSoN REPC4tTING COMPANY,INC, m
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DISCLAIMER ~
This is arr unofficial transcript of a meeting of the Unitad States Nuclear Reguiatory Coastssion held on-twarch " 9, 1982 in the Comissfon's offices at 1717 K Street, N W., Wasnington, D. C.
The meeting was open to public a.ttendance and observation.
Th,is transcript has. not been reviewed, corrected, or edited,. and it may contain inaccuracies.-
The transcript is intended. solely for general infomational purooses.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103,. it is. not part of the forinal or infomal record of decision of the matters discussed.
F.xpressions of opinion in i
i
,th s.transcr pt do not necessarily reflect final detaminations or
- p jbeliefs.
No pleading or other paper may be filed with the gomission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any* statement or argument coi.tained. herein,. except as the Connission may authorize.
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The meeting will come to 3 order.
4 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
The Commission 5 meets this morning to receive a briefing on the survey 6 of nuclear power plants conducted by the staff of the 7 Institute of Nucler Power Operations.
8 This meeting grew out of the February 4th meeting of 9 the Commissioners wherein we met with industry 10 representatives on the subject of quality assurance.
11 During that meeting, the Commission expressed 12 interest in the observations of the staff of the 13 Institute of Nuclear Power Operations from the 14 evaluations of nuclear power plants, plants that were in 15 operation and under construction.
16 Dennis Hilkinson, the Presidant of the Institute of 17 Nuclea Power Operations, discussed the INPO progra m s, 18 description of plant evaluation methodology and his 19 observations from his visits to many of this nation's 20 nuclear power plants.
l 21 Joining Admiral Wilkinson today are Peter Lyon, 22 Director of Rndiological Protection and Emergency 23 Preparedness Division of INPO, and Dr. Zachariah T.
l 24 Pate, Director of Evaluation and Assistance Division of l
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l ALDERSoN REPoHTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 INPO.
2 I think at this time, unless any Commissioner 3 has additional remarks, I would suggest turning the 4 seating over to Admiral Wilkinson.
5 ADNIRAL WILKINSON:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 6and Commissioners.
l 7
I really thank you for your time today.
8 Helated to that February 4th meeting, we are 9 off and running on the construction effort.
We are l
to getting strong industry support.
11 Today, at Atlanta, there are 22 people on loan 12 working full time on criteria development, and in 13 addition to those loaned employees f rom the industry, we i
14 have seven INPO permanent staff who are also working on i
i 15 that effort.
1 j
to Back in March 1980, Bill Lee, the Chairman of 17 INPO's Board, and I gave you a briefing on the overall 18 INPO concept.
In my written comments, I have included a 19 very brief update of selected INPO activities which I j
20 won 't repeat today, so we can concentrate, with the time 21 available, on the evaluations of operating plants.
22 However, I would appreciate the opportunity to 23 come back, when your schedule permits, and give you a 24 more detailed run down on the full scope of INPO 25 activities f or they are interrelated with your ALDetSoM REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
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1 responsibilities.
2 In December, we completed our first round of 3 operating station evaluations, 50 stations in all.
I 4 personally toured every plant and participated in each 5 exit meeting.
So my remarks today are based on 6 considerable first-hand experience with our teams.
7 As te gained experience over the past two 8 years, we have improved the conduct of evaluations.
We.
9 knew that we really needed to focus on performance, and.
10 that our evaluations would be more sea'ningf ul and 11 valuable to our member utilities if we could effectively 12 look at results.
13 I was influenced by my Navy experience because 14 the Navy Operational Beactor Safeguareds Examintions, 15 commonly known as the NORSE Boards, developed a 18 methodology for evaluating performance and resulte over 17 a period of many years.
18 May I have the first slide, please.
19 (Slide) 20 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Let me illustrate with j
21 this slide.
This shows the key elements that contribute j
22 to operation of a nuclear station.
As we look down each f
23 column, we see that the bottom line, before operation, 24 is knowledge and skills, procedures, and material i
l 25 condition.
I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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The underlines elements up the lines are 2 inspected, evaluated or appraised by a number of 3 organiza tions, including the NRC, utility QA and QC, 4 INPO, insurers, and others.
The bottom line elements,
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5 however, are of ten not evaluated.
6 Typically, they are not included in the 7 utility 's Q A progra m.
The NRC does examine the 8 knowledge of licensed personnel, but not of all 9 personnel at the station.
While INPO, in our 10 evaluations, will continue to look at all those 11 elements, we are placing major emphasis on performance 12 and results, the bottom line.
13 Next, I have an exanple of an actual finding 14 from a trip to a specific plant and utility, along with 15 our recommendation and the utility's response.
1,et me is read the findings 17
" Additional effort is needed to ensure more 18 rigorous procedural adherence.
Operators did not always 19 comply with the detailed requirements of procedures when 20 performing plant operation.T and tests."
Then we have a 21 recommendation and a response.
That sounds rather 22 bla nd.
23 Of course, we have a lot of backup which we 24 cover in detail until the utility recognizes the problem 25 and the issue.
For example, related to that actual ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
6 1 finding, let me read you a few of the backup things.
2 Pump breakers were not tagged prior to 3 beginning the evolution as required by the procedure 4 precautions.
4 5
Component water pump performance test required 6 proper oil levels in th's pump's oil sight glasses as a 7 procedure prerequisite to starting.
8 Bearings indicated less than the low level 9 marking on respective oil sight glasses.
to The removal and restoration procedure was not 11 utilized to remove the menometer being used as a reactor 12 coolant system level indication.
13 Two-man verification was not utilized to 14 ensure proper operation of the drain valve associated 15 with the temporary level indication as required.,
16 Violation of the precautions of a maiutenance 17 procedure occurred when preparations to contain liquid, 18 which might drain from the pipes during the ruptured 19 disc replacement, were not carried out.
20 No reference was made to the limitations and 21 precautions in the procedure as required by a step or i
22 procedure being performed.
23 The technician removed his contaminated l
24 disposal shoe covere while standing on a clean step-off 25 pad in violation of procedures.
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ALDetSoM REPofmNG COMPANY,INC.
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This goes on and on and on until we have 2 convinced the utility of the basic problem and issue.
3 As I said, the end finding is rather bland, but there is 4 lots of backup at the time that we are doing it.
5 Considerable vork is involved in developing 6 each finding and recommendation.
7 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Can I interrupt you just 8 one second?
9 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs Yes, sir.
10 CHAIREAN PALLADIN04 Is that kind of detail 11 given to the top management?
Where does that detail 12 go?
13 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
That detail is provided to 14 them at the time of an exit interview.
Actually, a lot 15 of that detail, all during the two-week period that the 16 evaluation is taking place, is being interchanged 17 betveta our nbserver and his counterpart, be it 18 operations, or maintenance, or tech support, or whatever 19 may be.
20 Then, some of that detail is provided at the 21 exit interview, and in follow up communication back and 22 forth with the utility while the report is being 23 finalized.
24 CHAIRNAN PALLADINO What I am getting at, 25 does the top management get the full impact, such that
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1 it calls to their a ttention that they have these kinds l
2 of problems?
3 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Yes, sir.
4 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Could I ask you a 5 question, then.
6 ADNIRAL WILKINSON:
Yes, sir.
7 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
You gave a fairly 8 extensive list there to back up that finding.
Was that 9 a list which was part of the report that you gave to the 10 utility, or was that a list of items culled in order to 11 provide for this meeting the support?
12 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
That was an actual example 13 f rom this actual finding, and the list that we had to 14 substantiate that finding was actually considerably more 15 than I only read samples from.
Those examples we.re all to shown to the utility during the process of the 17 evaluation, the exit, and the preparation of the 18 report.
19 COMNISSIONER AHEARNEs I understand tha t.
My 20 question was, was there ever in one place that list put 21 together ?
22 NR. PATts Would you like me to answer that?
23 ADMIRAL WILKINSON Yes.
24 ER. PA'Tt:
Yes, sir, there is a package of all l
l 25 of our observations that is provided to the plant l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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9 1 manager.
At the exits I have attended, Mr. Wilkinson 2 has given a copy to the CEO.
3 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Very good.
4 ADMIRAL WIlKINSONs Considerable work is 5 involved in developing each finding and recommendation.
6 The team observes many plant activities, such as 7 surveillance tests, instrum ent tests, maintenance in 8 progress, training, shift turnover, plant tours, and 9 control room operations.
10 We observe people at work doing things, 11 performing their job.
Organizational weaknesses, policy l
12 issues, and procedural problems can be identified 13 through this method.
14 Our evaluation teams have learned that 15 problems in actual perform'ance and observed results that i
16 are lesg than optimum make the most convincing arguments 17 that improvements are needed.
18 It is one thing to argue philosophically that i
19 an opportunity for improvement exists in a certain 20 aspect of station management, it is another to 21 demonstrate that it exists based on actual observations 22 of performance or results.
23 This next example illustrates a finding 24 involving the work control system that is based on a 25 look at results but not at operational activities.
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10 1 going to read part of it.
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" Numerous plant deficiencies identified during 3 t'he evaluation were not reflected in the work control 4 system.
As a result, the work control system does not 5' eflect actual plant conditions and the appropriate 6 priority of corrective maintenance."
This is an actual 7 finding in an actual plant, and in an actual 8 evaluation.
9 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS Pardon me, Admiral, but 10 would you define " work control systems" for me?
11 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
It is the method by which 12 they identif y the material problems and assign 13 responsibility to get them corrected, prioritize the 14 work, and track to see that that work is accomplished.
15 This is another rather simple statement, but 16 our team backs it up with literally pages of material 17 problems of varying importance.
For example, related to 18 that finding, we had pages of backup of items of varying 19 importance.
20 Excessive glan leak of the shaft seals on 21 number one turbine.
22 Number two turbine, turbine shaft seals, 23 excessive leak off.
24 Feed pump oil skimmer belt broken.
25 Auxilliary feed pump motor screens dirty.
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11 High pressure B drain pump excessive leak and 1
2 the motor filters dirty.
3 This go on, and every one of those items, of 4 course, is handed to them with the caution that this is 5 not a list of deficiencies to fix.
That is a list 6 indicative of some kind of a problem in identifying and 7 fixing those kinds of things.
The list is not a list to 8 be corrected.
This is a list to show them that there is 9 a problem.
10 In the back of your handout, I have many more 11 actual findings, which I will not go through in detail.
12 Those were only examples.
13 As it turns out, working out the responses 14 with our member utility has been one of the more 15 productive aspects of our program.
We leave our, rough 16 findings with the utility, with the supporting 17 informa tion, at the exit meeting conducted immediately 18 af ter the evaluation.
We almost always have top 19 management there.
20 I have been at every one of those exit j
21 meetings, and almost always the CEO is there.
In 22 addition to that, we have a preponderance of the top 23 executives involved with nuclear in that company at that 24 exit meeting, in addition to the plant or station 25 management.
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1 About two weeks later, we sail a draf t report 2 with essentially the same findings, the wording is i
3 refined, and with a recommendation f or each finding.
4 About four weeks later, the utility sends us responses.
5 Typically, aot all the responses properly 6 address the problems as we see them, and so we have a 7 response meeting with them.
The team manager meets with i
8 senior station management and some officials from 9 corporate.
Our taan managers are experienced nuclear 10 plant operators and are experienced in explaining the
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11 issue, if it was not fully understood from the exit j
12 meeting.
j 13 Usually, a proper response to each finding and j
14 recommendation results f rom tha t meeting.
If no t, we 15 escalate the negotiation, and if necessary I wi1L talk 16 with the CEO personally about an individual finding.
17 In many cases, member utilities have gained 18 substantial insight into the root cause of a problem at l
19 the station through these response meetings.
As often 20 as not, our team manager is supported by corporate.
l 21 These meetings have developed into an important 22 management tool in making our overall progran more 23 effective.
24 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Admiral, do you of ten 25 have to escalate it up?
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ADMIRAL WIlKINSON Not very often, but there 2 have been cases, yes, sir.
3 Actually, everybody wants to be responsive and 4 do right.
Sometimes, the question about a commitment by 5 a time, or a response is a little self-serving, or 6 otherwise, and we have had a few cases where we have had 7 to argue back and f orth.
But when you get to the CEO 8 level, he wants to do right.
There have been, really, a 9 very limited number of cases that have escalated up to 10 between ne and the chief executive officer.
11 Af ter these interactions, we publish a formal 12 report that includes the utility's responses committed 13 to taking corrective action.
14 CONNISSIONER ROBERTSs What is the 15 distribution of that report?
16 ADMIRAL WIlKINSON:
We have an evaluation 17 release policy, I happen to have a copy with me, and we 18 furnish that to the utility.
In that release policy, we 1g encourage them to go public with it.
I don 't mean 20 public in the sense of press releases, but I mean public 21 in that we can do distribution.
22 We encourage them, if ther go public, to 23 provide a copy to their local or regional NRC office.
24 If they go public, we request their permission to 25 distribute to a list, as worked out with our Board of l
l ALDGISoM REPofMNG COMPANY,ifJC,
14 1 Directors, which includes all our member utilities, the 2 Board of Directors of INPO, our Advisory Council, 3 industry review groups, all the alphabet people, APPA, 4 EEI, and so on.
5 I will leave a copy of this evaluation release 6 policy with you.
The advantage of that is, if there is 7 anything that is of value there, it would be nice if a 8 copy went to all other utilities.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Do most of them agree to 10 going public, or to your suggestion to go public on this 11 report?
12 ADMIRAL WI1KINSON Not all utilities have 13 gone public, but most of then dd.
14 We, in the first cycle, completed 50 15 evaluations.
So f ar, we, have only finalized 45 16 reports.
There are five that are still in the process I 17 described.
Two are at the printers, and the other three 10 are in process for that first round.
Of the 45 issues, 19 34 so far have gone public.
Eleven have not public so 20 f ar.
21 I estimate that five of those won't, but I 22 think the other six will.
It is just a time 23 involvement.
Mostly of the people have gone public.
t 24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOs Have the people who have l
25 gone public given you any reaction as to the kind of l
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15 1 feedback they get from their going public?
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ADMIRAL WILKINSON4 I have had some rather 3 bitter comments back f rom a couple of utilities when 4 they came up before the press.
5 (General laughter.)
6 ADHIBAL WILKINSON:
Yes, sir, I have had some 7 f eedback.
8 A vital aspect of the overall evaluation 9 program is the follow-up to see that responses are 10 properly implemented.
Each utility provides a writta, 11 status report six months af ter the evaluation report is 12 issued.
We review the status report for adequacy, and 13 talk to the utility if it is not.
We rigorously track 14 this follow-up sctivity.
15 We also receive a written update just prior to 16 the next evaluation.
The most important step, of 17 course, will be to actually check in the second time 18 around to see what was done.
t 1g CHAIRNAN PALLADIN0s How much time would 20 elapse between the first go-round and the second 21 go-round?
22 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
With the number of people 23 ve have, and the number of plan ts there are, we are 24 averaging right now about 15 months.
Our goal is to get 25 more qualified teams.
l ALDetSoM REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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Our original goal was to do it annually, but 2 with the resources we have, and the qualified people, 3 and with the f act that we have added visits to near-ters 4 operating licensees, plants about to come on line, we 5 are running now 15 months as an average.
6 We might vary that a little bit.
Some plants, 7 go back a little sooner, and others a little later, 8 depending on various things such as the problems at the 9 plant, or when they had their outage, or what-not.
But 10 with our resources, and our qualified people, 15 11 months.
12 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Thank you.
13 ADMIRAL WILKINSON.
Checking will be a 14 significant part of our second round evaluations.
Early 15 this year, as I said, we did several assistance v,isits 16 to the near-ters operating licensees, so we have only 17 started our second round.
18 Of those we have completed to date, the 19 improvements in responso to our first evaluation have 20 been excellent in two cases, and acceptab.) in the 21 third.
Nonetheless, we have talked to the CEO in the l
22 latter case, and we will write new findings in each area 23 where the improvements were less than hoped for.
We l
l 24 emphasized to our members that rigorous follow-up is
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25 essential to the evaluation program, just as it is in ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
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' 1 other well managed operations.
2 As our program has evolved, we have had 3 considerable interaction with the NRC staff, primarily 4 through the Office of Inspection and Enforcement, IE.. A 5 representative from IE has observed an INPO evaluation 6 from start to finish, including our night sessions and 7 including the various iterations f or the preparation of 8 the report.
9 Similarly, one of our eraluators, and an 10 experienced one, has observed a ' complete PAT appraisal.
11 There have been other interactions.
We are responsive 12 to your comments and, in fact, we are currently 13 augmenting our plant criteria for evaluations in 14 response to suggestions by IE personnel.
15 CHAIRHAN PALLADINot Dennis, I wonder i,f I to could interrupt you just a minute.
17 When you go back on the second round 18 evaluation, are you looking primarily to fixing up the togeneral findings?
20 You said earlier that you were not trying to 21 come up with a list of things, where you say, these are 22 the lists of things that need to be fixed.
Yet, I 23 presume, you have to go looking at the details to see if 24 the changes have really taken place?
ADMIR AL WILKINSON :
The second time around, we l
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18 1 check all the items that we had before to see that ther 2 were accomplished.
We also check our whole criteria.
3 As it happens, related to my discussion, with some 4 suggestions from IE and from our own experience, we have 5 augmented the criteria since the first time around.
For 6 example, we have added QA that we did not look at in the 7 earliest days.
8 So we check performance on the stuff from f
9 before, but we also do a complete evaluation related to to our current criteria f or evaluation of operating 11 plants.
As a matter of interest, we don't just go to l
12 one of those evaluations cold.
Our team does several 13 weeks of preparation and homework in Atlanta before we 14 g o.
15 We have computers, and data banks, and xe look 16 at all the things that have to do with the performance 17 of that station before we go, to give us some clues of 18 areas that we should dig into.
We look at all their 19 LERs.
We look at their unplanned trips.
We look at i
20 their capacity f actor.
We lo.ok at the results of their
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21 various inspections by NRC.
We look at the problems 22 they have had, and other source materials to make a 23 proper preparation to go there.
24 The areas where there is an opportunity for l
25 improvement from the year before's evaluation is only l
19 1 one piece of source material.
2 Would you like to add to that, Zach?
3 MR. PATE:
Only to the extent that in these 4 first three, it has taken 15 to 20 percent of the team's 5 time to see what was done about the last time's report.
6 The remainder, then, is devoted to a new evaluation.
7 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
This may be a detail, 8 but would you give me some sensa of how large your team 9 is; what is the period of times are these your full-time 10 permanent employees, or on-loan employees are these '
11 people who do this on an ad hoc basis for a specific 12 evaluation?
13 MR. PA(ts There are at least nine people on 14 each team, more typically 12.
Typically, out of the 12, 15 a couple are in training.
About typically two me,mbers to of the team are on loan from industry, the others are 17 permanent personnel, all working for me or working for 18 Pete Lyon, but dedicated full time to the evaluation 19 program, and learning how to do this properly.
20 ADMIRAL WILXINSON:
The industry loanees are 21 personnel that are loaned to us for a year or two.
So 22 we have the opportunity for them to become quite 23 knowledgeable in the procedures.
Before they go back to 24 their parent company, they will have had the opportunity 25 to participate in at least seven or eight evaluations, j
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20 1 which is a good experience for them to have the 2 opportunity to see many other plants, and the good and 3 the bad in those plants.
4 CORNISSIONER ROBERTSs What is the length of 5 time for the initial evaluation?
6 NR. PA(Es The better part of two weeks, and I 7 say that because we spend the second Monday back in 8 Atlanta with each evaluator working with his 9 department-head reviewing what he found in the first 10 w ee k.
11 I might also add to Mr. Wilkinson 's comment 12 about the loaned personnel.
We insist, and have held 13 the line, that each loaned personnel spend at least one 14 year with us.
15 We have been asked many times to let pe,ople 16 come on loan and spend three months, make a couple of 17 evaluations, and these people need to make at least 18 three before they learn the process.
So there is an 19 intensive. training program of about three months before 20 ve can put a person on a team as a full-fledged I
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'21 evaluator.
B 22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Thank you.
i 23 Do you want to go ahead.
24 ADNIRAL WILKINSON:
I appreciate your letting 25 ne describe our methodology.
I thought it was important t
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l 21 1 to explain some aspects of how we do evaluations before 2 I discussed what we are finding.
3 Now I would like to give you some highlights 4 of what we have seen and concluded as a result of our 5 first rou'nd of evaluations.
First, some general 6 impressions.
7 The one thing I like about this industry is a how different they are.
No two nuclear station are 9 exactly alike, and most differ videly.
This makes the to problem harder for us and for other activities that 11 support the industry.
12 It is a shame that we did not have the 13 foresight in our country to recognize the benefits of 14 standardization.
15 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
I have to step 1,n i
16 there.
17 From the history that I have read, the 18 benefits were recognized.
It was that there was no 19 f oCcing function, either on the side of industry or 20 elsewhere, to insist on it.
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ADMIRAL WILKINSONt I stand corrected.
I 21 22 agr ee, sir.
23 INPO, as a matter of interest,we now have i
24 international participants, 10 countries.
Through that 25 program, we have seen the benefits of standardization in i
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i I some other countries, as for example France.
2 CONNISSIONER AHEARNEs Right, Fermi.
3 ADNIRAL WILKINSONs Large nuclear plants are 4 necessarily complex.
However, it appears to me that we 5 have made our commercial power plants overly complex.
6 CONNISSIONER GILINSKYa Could I just take you 7 back to your earlier point.
8 Are you conducting visits abroad?
9 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs We have international
'1O participants, ten, I can give you a list, and we do not 11 include those in our plant evaluation program.
There is 12 an exchange of information with those other countries 1
13 wherein we provide them information on the event 14 analysis program, CN, all our training guidelines, all 15 the written material that we provide to our domestic 16 plants.
i 17 The interdependence of the nuclear plants i
18 transcends national boundaries.
THI affects them all, to even beyond our country.
1 20 In the agreements by which we take
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l 21 international participants, there is a requirement, an 22 agreement for an exchange of informa tion both ways.
So 23 ve are acquiring information back from the foreign i
24 participants that, unless there is proprietary 25 information involved, we make available through our data m
ALDERSoN REPofmMG COMPANY,INC,
23 1 base to the NRC.
2 If there are any new plants being built, they 3 are overseas, I think that exchange of information both 4 vars is of benefit to the United States.
5 Excuse me for interrupting you, sir.
6 CONHISSIONER GIIINSKYs No, I was just going 7 to ask what you got in return.
8 CONNISSIONER ROBERTS:
Admiral Wilkinson, your 9 last statement from your prepared text, "It appears to 1
10 ao that we have made our commercial power plants overly 11 complex."
Who would you include in that editorial and 12 all-inclusive we ?
13 I am not putting you on the spot, and I don't 14 mean to embarrass you.
l 15 ADMIRAL WILKINSON A combination of 16 everything involved.
17 I as for our system, but we have
-- It will 18 take me a long time to answer it, but I can answer it.
Is COMMISSIONER ROBERTSs I suspect it would.
20 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Would you like to talk to 21 that?
22 (General laughter.)
23 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSa Is it because you might 24 off end present company?
25 5R. PAda No, sir.
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ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
In one sense, in one 2 philosophy, we have endeavored to make those plants 3 absolutely fail-safe, so that nothing can go wrong.
We 4 have tried to put in system af ter system, and circuit 5 af ter circuit, so that man can make an error, but the 6 plant will still be safe.
7 That is not so.
Any safety feature can be 8 defeated, and in a sense there is a considerable 9 ' complexity in those plants related to safety that in 10 some cases we would get better results from a more 11 'com pete nt, better trained, absolutely safe -- you can't 12 have that either -- operator.
That is only my 13 impression.
14 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSt I understand.
15 ADMIRAL VILKINSON:
That complexity, however, 16 makes them more difficult to operate and maintain, and 17 harder to keep on line.
The problem is compounded by 4
18 f requent --
to COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Can I ask something.
20 Do you see a difference in that aspect of the plant 21 design between our plants and those abroad?
22 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
I did not give a complete 23 answer to the abroad question, had we visited other 24 pla nt.
We are not evaluating those plants.
We have had 25 some exchange visits.
I have had a person involved in
- -,.e co-,u. m
25 1 an inspection of a plant in Yugoslavia, and we have had 2 a limited group or team of our peopla go through EDF 3 plants.
4 I as thinking about your question.
No, I 5 think they are the same.
Our plants are certainly a lot
-Sacre complicated in the areas I was describing.
The 7 commercial plants are certainly a lot more complex than 8 are Navy plants.
So maybe that is my perspective.
9 Related to your question, overseas, I think 10 they are in 'the same philosophy and constraints as our 11 plants.
After all, we started this industry, and a lot i
12 of the plants overseas are our plants.
So I would not '
'13 see a marked difference overseas f rom my very lialted 14 perspectiva and knowledge.
I am not an expert on that 15 subject.
16 CHAIRHAM PALLADINO:
In speaking of the 17 complexity of plants, I presume one has to consider 18 their size, and the amount of residual heat that they 19 con tain, such that the situation in a commercial 20 application might be significantly different from that
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21 in var 1ous kinds, of other applications.
22 CONNISSIONER GILINSKYa Right.
23 ADEIRAL WI1KINSON:
You are absolutely righ t.
24 There are enormous heat transients in those plants when 25 we change power levels, and going through shutdown.
I i
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/g ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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26 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Plus, they are meant 2 to run at full power all the time, which is different 3 than the Navy plants.
4 ADHIBAL WILKINSON:
The problem in the plants 5 is compounded by f requent changes to plant design, and 6 f requent changes to rules and requirements.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO We get that part out of 8 the way.
9 (General laughter.)
10 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
That is partly you.
11 COHNISSIONER ROBERTS:
You said it very nicely 12 and gentlemaaly.
13 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
I as pleased to see that 14 you are taking steps to centralize and control the 15 changes originated by NRC.
It appears to se that your 16 recent reorganization that established the committee to 17 reviev general requirements and the proposed SECY-82-39 18 should help.
19 Just going into those plants, since they were 20 built, we have never stopped building on them.
If you 21 go there, there is a workforce putting up hangars, or 22 doing this and doing that.
Any one of those things is
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23 probably good in itself, but it ought to be looked at in I
24 comparison to the whole.
f j
[
25 That was a general statement.
I am trying to l
l f
ALDERSoN REPOfmMG COMPANY,INC, 1
27 1 give some general impressions before I get down to the 2 areas I know you are interested in.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY.
I think that it is 4 worth adding a point here as to how that all came 5 about.
It has to do with the var we got into the 6 business.
We got into big plants before we had 7 experience with little plants.
8 So it was done on the basis that if things 9 needed to be fixed, we would fix them, and we just added 10 requirements to compensate for problems that we had not 11 been aware of before, and so on.
Not this was all done i
12 in the best possible way, I don't want to suggest that.
13 ADMIR.*3L WIlKINSON :
I agree.
In any general 1
14 impression, and it is sort of a subjective impression, 15 there are obviously lots of reasons behind it.
16 The one question that Commissioner Roberts 17 aske'd, I could not really answer it because it is such a 18 complicated subject and so is this.
Ig It is the general impression. that the training 20 of operational and craf t personnel varies widely from 21 utility to utility.
i 22 Secondly, the staffing, the number of people l
23 that they have put in there, vary widely from site to i
I l
24 site.
Many stations rely heavily on contracted 25 personnel who are not part of the permanent station ALD5R8oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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28 1 complement.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa Could I ask a question 3 on those two?
4 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Yes, sir.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is this variation from 6 good to better, or from poor to very good?
7 ADEIRAL WILKINSON:
In training?
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, for example, in 9 the training ?
10 ADHIRAL WILKINSON:
I think that there needs l
11 to be an upgrading of training in the utility industrey 12 to include all the personnel involved in operation, 13 maintenance, and support of the stations, not just the 14 licensed personnel.
I am going to talk to that in a 15 minute as a strength because that is happening.
is CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What is happening that is 17 an improvement?
i 18 ADMIRAL WILKINSON A marked change in the is philosophy of training.
But I am getting ahead of
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20 myself.
21 Next let me tell you my impression of some of 22 the strengths of the industry.
I 23 In general, I find the utilities have a strong 24 management commitment to safety and a real villingness 25 to allocate resources as needed.
When something is i
j ALDansoN REPORTNG CoHPANY, NC.
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a 1 pointed out, they are v1111ng to put the resources there 2 to do something about it.
3 When I go to one of those exit interviews, in A almost every case, that is the CEO sitting there, backed 5 up by a group of his top people.
They are responsive.
l 8
COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Is this exit interview 7 at the plant site or in the penthouse of an office 8 building in the downtown metropolitan area?
9 ADMIRAL HILKINSON:
One thing that is the same to about this industry is how different they are, but in 11 all cases, but two, it has been at the plant site.
12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Thank you.
13 CHAIRHAN PALLADINot can I ask you a little 14 bit about the philosophy behind that statement.
15 It is something to have a strong management 16 commitment to safety, and when somebody points out a 17 problem, they will say, We vill put resources there to 18 fix it. "
19 It is another to have an active initiative 20 type of management that says, "I don't want to get in 21 the position where I have got to fix things.
I want to 22 make sure that I am getting a plant that is going to be 23 reliable, that is going to be safe, the plant that I get 24 a contractor for."
25 Do you find that kind of management ALDERSoN REPoHTING COMPANY.INC.
30 1 villingness and attention, the more active and 2 aggressive management that looks after making sure these 1
3 plants are safe, rather than the management that says, 4 "I will give resources," when somebody finds a problem?
5 ADNIRAL WILKINSONa Of course, there is a 6 variation, a spread.
Later in my presentation, I want 7 to talk to that subject by talking about corporate.
If 8 I could defer and show how that. is being done.
9 ER. PACEa I think also the Chairman is to getting at the distinction we make between this sentence 11 and the lead end to the next part.
I thinP. he has
~
12 recognized that distinction we were talking about i
13 yesterday.
14 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO I have not looked at your i
15 next part.
18 ADMIRAL WILKINSONa Good.
17 COHHISSIONER ROBERTSs Not to preempt you, and 18 I realize that it is difficule to walk through this.
19 You omitted one of your bullets, which I think ought to l
20 be publicly said.
21 ADMIRAL WILKINSONt Which one?
22 CONMISSIONER ROBERTSa "Some plants are l
i 23 running out of room for, spent fuel.
Government action 24 1s needed."
25 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
That is true.
l i
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31 1
COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
I just did not want 2 that to be glossed over.
3 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
As I said, I have written 4 more in here for the record, than there is time to say, 5 and still talk about the stuff that you want to ask 6 questions about.
7 But you are absolutely right.
Something needs 8 to be done.
Plant after plant, they are modifying, they 9 are putting in more racks.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What sort of 11 government action did you have in mind?
What sort of l
12 government action are you talking about?
13 ADMIBAL WILKINSON:
Again, that is a long, f
14 long question, but there needs to be a system for that 15 fuel to be taken out of those pools down there and 16 handled in some way.
Whether it is permanent offsite 17 storage, whether it is reprocessing with a ucar tax, or 18 anyway, but it can't be done until the government sets 19 up a policy of what to do.
l 2r CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Dennis, earlier, and by l
21 earlier I mean a f ev years back, I gather there was l
22 private industry initiative to get some place to put 23 thi's fuel.
I gather that dropped off also when the 24 government said, we vill take the initiative.
l 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Now the government has ALoansoN REPofmMG COMPANY. INC,
32 1 backed away.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That is right, the 3 government has dropped that initiative.
Where do you 4 see the industry going on that?
I know we are getting a 5 little bit ofi the subject.
~
8 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:- Just as a general 7 impression, something needs to be done.
My personal 8 opinion, a methodology should be set up tha t the 9 government approves, where the funding is through the 10 use.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The Administration has 12 said that it did not want any part of this.
There is a 13 bill in the Congress, that may change that.
14 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs I an aware of that.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
An important part of the to Federal action is to provide some stability in the 17 direction it wants to go.
Maybe it is this back and 18 forth that you are referring to,- as much as anything 19 else.
20 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs That is true.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Okay.
22 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
I was talking of strengths 23 in the industry.
24 As we go to those stations, most of the 25 station personnel are dedicated to doing their jobs.
l ALosasoN.RsPoRTING COMPANY,INC, CDG3 AG GWo WM @@ EG33(E8 N-
33 1 They are working hard, putting in long hours, with the 2 cares of the world on their shoulders, trying to keep 3 those plants on the line.
4 Unlike the Navy, and you know my background is 5 Navy, unlike the Navy where personnel turnover is high, 6many utility personnel, many of those station personnel 7 remain at their site f or 10 years or more.
That 8 permanency is a powerful asset.
9 Training, and this relates to a question asked to earlier, training in the industry is in a state of 11 flux.
In general, it is improving rapidly.
- Actually, 12 ve have now put out guidelines to cover all the 13 different elements involved in operation, maintenance, 14 and support.
Those are being implemented, and almost 15 all utilities training programs are being expande,d to 16 cover all their personnel.
17 Many more aspects of utility or nuclear 18 station operations are being done well.
Those are just to a few highlights that deserve special mention.
Just as l
20 ve, INPO,are in our evaluations, I know you are really l
I 21 primarily interested in those things that need 22 laprovement.
23 In our evaluation reports, we don 't bother to 24 comment on the things that commonly are done properly in 25 the industry since it is of no benefit to our members l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
34 1 for improvement.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Except to make sure tha t 3 they know what is being done, so that they don't slip.
4 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Yes.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I agree with you.
6 AD MIR AL-WILKINSON :
The industry tasked INPO 7 to set standards of excellence, to evaluate performance 8 based on those standards and best practices within the 9 industry.
In effect, we havea mandate from our industry to to recommend improvements without having to ' p ro v e 11 something is deficient or unsatisf actory.
As a result, 12 most of our findings involve recommended improvements, 13 rather than unsatisf actory conditions.
14 In a similar context, I am going to describe 15 areas that need improvement in the industry.
It is is important to keep in mind that these conclusions are 17 based on the INPO goal of excellence in all phases, and 18 not on any minimum acceptable standard.
19 With that caveat, here are some areas that i
20 could stand improvement.
21 Managers and supervisors at all levels need to 22 be more involved in the actual details of station 23 operation.
For exampla, they need to make more tours, 24 observations, and inspections to discover actual 25 conditions.
O ALDER 8oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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35 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
What are you talking 2 about?
Are you talking about supervisors at the plant, 3 or persons at other levels?
4 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Yes, sir.
I as talking 5 about supervisors and managers at the plant, but 6 actually I as talking at all levels.
If there is 7 something that needs improvement at the plant, it is the 8 responsibility of the parent utility.
They should have 9 a mechanism of monitoring to see that things are to perfect.
They never are, but there should be a 11 mechanism to identify within themselves all the areas 12 tha t need im provemen t.
13 I am mostly talking plant managers and 14 supervisors, but if there is a problem there, I am 15 talking beyond' the plant, as we will talk corpora,te in 16 another few minutes.
17 We observed that some supervisors are a little 18 reluctant to correct and train their people.
to COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Why is that?
20 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs We observe less than 21 perfect adherence to. established procedures.
22 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Dennis, why are the 23 supervisors indicating that reluctance?
Is it lack of l
24 confidence in their ef forts?
i 25 ADMIRAL WILKINSONt I think it is a f act of l
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
36
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1 life.
When I write fitness in the Navy a little bit, I 2 have to force myself to tell the guy, " Listen, you are 3 not quite hacking it."
I think that is a normal thing.
4 I think it is compounded by the f act that they 5 are so busy that they don't have enough time to get out 6 of the office and get out there and identify for sure 7 that that guy needs a little more training.
8 COMMISSIONER AREARNEs Perhaps, I an drawing 9 more out of this than is here.
I was not so much 10 focusing on the correct, because having gone through 11 vriting ERs and those things myself, I understand that.
12 ADMIR AL WILKINSON :
Yes.
13 COMMISSIGNER AHEARNEs But you also hav.e 14 " reluctant to observe, coach and train."
That goes a 15 lot f arther than the criticisa side.
18 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs That is a short a back-up 17 example, if you will, of my general conclusion up there 18 that the people need to get out and see what is going on 19 more.
Maybe the words are not properly chosen, but if j
20 they got out and saw what was going on more, they would 21 recognize and they would be forced to, having identified 22 a problem, tangle with it.
l 23 Procedural adherence needs imbrovement.
24 Communications between various departments, the 25 operator, the craf t personnel, and the supervisors need l
i l
l AUMRSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, i
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1 acre formality.
We see frequent examples, or some 2 examples of operational errors that result because of 3 confusion in terminology, and communication methodology, 4 etc.
Shift turnovers sometimes are a little more casual 5 than ther ought to be.
6 My next general impression of an area that 7 needs improvement, frequently the material condition in 8 that plant is a major problem area, not anything that is 9 covered in the safety related equipment.
But a plant 10 all goes together, and the non-safety related equipment 11 affects the performance of the plant also.
12 Frequently, impro ved maintenance, attention to 13 developing material problems, and a more systematic 14 nethod for identif ying, tracking, and resolving material 15 conditions is needed.
16 Identification and correction of the root 17 causes of operational problems, equipment malfunctions, 18 and abnormal conditions, needs improvement.
For 1g example, again supporting information, ther need a 20 little more attention in analyzing operational problems
^ 21 and equipment malfunctions and determining what really 22 caused them.
23 Sometimes, it was a personnel error that was 24 never identified.
It is a personnel error if you failed 25 to grease something.
It is a personnel error if a l
I i
l M.DensoN REPoRTDIG CoWANY,INC.
38 i
1 varning was put out two years that a cutter key should 2 be changed, and it didn 't get changed.
So lots of 3 times, something vill go wrong and the root cause won't 4 he identified.
5 I really think that there needs to be more l
6 attention to insisting that abnormal conditions, 7 aberrations be pursued until the real thing that caused 8 them to happen is identified, and corrective action is 9 taken, because sometimes the corrective action is more 10 than that individual incident, it is a general change 11 that need to be made.
12 Next, improvements are needed in broad areas 13 of training.
For example, sometimes people have not had 14 the training they require for the watch or the job that 15 they are going to be assigned to.
16 As I said, there is a marked improvement in 17 process in the training and qualification of personnel 18 for the functions that they are going to perform.
But 19 going back in our early days, and still today, there is i
20 a weakness here in the assignment of a man to do 21 something when he has not been adequately qualified for 22 that specific iten.
t 23 In that regard, what we call in the Navy
(
24 practical f actors, and what is known in the industry as 25 on-the-job training, sometimes is not adequately defined l
ALDER 8oN REPoMTING COMPANY,INC,
39 1 and formalized that this man has to do this, this, and 2 this, before he can perform that job.
Instead, in many 3 cases, on-the-job training is more just being there, 4 without it being structured.
5 The next ites where is a need for inprovement, 8 there is a considerable shortage of personnel in this 7 industry.
We really need to add to the people in the 8 pipeline to get properly trained to fill all the 9 positions that are required both for operation and 10 support.
This is especially critical with all the 11 plants that are coming on line.
12 As you know, in another channel, we have been 13 involved in a manpower survey that has shown a shortage 14 of personnel in the industry.
We have iden tified, f or 15 each utility, what in our opinion they should do,to put 16 more people in the training pipeline to meet their 17 requirements, and have gone out with utility in that 18 regard.
19 We are in the process of a sccond survey l
20 incidentally, we are helped with the ODE funding on 21 those manpower surveys.
It is a general impression that 22 this is something that needs improvement.
There is a i
23 great shortage of trained personnel in this industry, as 24 I know you know.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Admiral, yea rs ago, I I
ALDER 8oN REPoRTWG COMPANY. INC,
ua
)
1 worked on a related probles at another end of the system 2 rou were also working on, that is the retention and 3 attraction of people into the military service.
One of 4 the big issues that always came up in there was the pay 5 and benefits, another shorthand for how much money are 6 they making coming in.
7 Do you have any comment on the adequacy of the 8 par scales that are being offered to these people?
9 ADEIRAL WILKINSON:
That is a tough question.
10 In my personal opinion, the pay is adequate.
The pay is 11 good.
I believe the problem was in these utilities, 12 working in the American competitive system, in a sense, 13 it was easier for them to attract someone from another 14 utility instead of recognizing their needs years hence, 15 and putting people into a training pipeline in order to to meet that need.
17 You see, it is a little cheaper to steal 18 somebody from somebody else.
What you really need to 19 get enough people is for a cooperative effort by all to 20 put an adequate number in the training pipeline.
an 21 industry-wide aanpower planning was lacking, and not par 22 scales.
l 23 CONNISSIONER ROBERTS:
Isn't INPO the proper 24 organization to perhaps ameliorate that situation?
25 (General Laughter.)
l ALDER 8oN REPoRDNQ COMPANY,INC, 400 vmGueA Avu, s.w wAsHMGToN, D.C. 20024 (20:D 564 2346
41
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1 ADNIRAL WILKINSON:
I am not sure, but we are l
2 doing it.
3 CONNISSIONER HOBERTS:
You can disregard the 4 question.
5 ADNIRAL VILKINSON:
No, that is a good 6 question.
7 I am not sure that we are the proper 8 organization, but I as sure we are doing it.
We are 9 doing that, sir.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is the industry giving 11 good support to developing additional manpower?
12 ADMIR AL WILKINS0'. 4 We have gone out to all 13 the utilities with a report on the manpower problem, to 14 the individual utilities that we think need more people 15 in the pipeline, and what they should do.
16 I don't have positive knowledge of the 17 action.
We are following that up with another survey 18 with a similar action.
Again, as we go to each 19 evaluation, we are checking on it.
20 As far as I can see,-so far, yes, sir, we are 21 getting that support.
22 The next general impression of an area needing
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23 improvement, programs to control the implementation of I
l 24 design changes and modifications often need l
l 25 improvement.
Plant modification, documentation, drawing l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, MMM BrkN Fk% A8 N
I changes, and training of operators, all of which should 2 go together, are not always properly integrated when the 3 modification is put into being in the plant.
4 Next, more management involvement is needed in 5 the radiological aspects of operation at some stations 6 in reducing exposures to workers, reducing contamination 7 levels in the plants, and tng the volume of solid io 8 rad vaste.
9 Next, managers and supervisors often do not 10 place sufficiant emphasis on controlling chemistry, and 11 that is very important for the proper operation of the 12 plant.
13 Finally, use of in-house operating experience 14 and operating experience from other nuclear stations 15 frequently needs improvement.
16 He are giving that information to them in the 17 CEN program, with the SERs, significant event reports, 18 and the SOER, significant operational evaluation l
to reports.
We follov'up on those in our evaluations, that 20 the utility has taken action on that experience of the l
L 21 rest of the industry.
I 22 We also, from homework before we go of the 23 incidents they have had, check to see that they have 24 taken adequate tollow up action on their own incidents.
l 25 Hany do that well.
In some cases, it could be better.
ALDERSoN REPofmNG COMPANY. INC,
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43 1 So as a general impression, I pu*. this in here.
^
2 COHHISSIONER AHEARNES Can I follow up on 3 probably the last two bullets combined.
Let me just ask 4 for your impression.
has there been any change or any 5 significant change in the attitude of utilities, on this 6 water chemistry problem, and in particular in the water 7 chemistry in the secondary sida for PWRs?
8
.ADHIBAL WILKINSON:
There sure has, with the 9 problem that they have had with the steam generators.
10 As you know, it represents off-the-line time.
It 11 represents a lot of money.
There is an awareness that 12 somethino needs to be done.
That steam generator 13 problem goes partly back to design errors to start with, 14 and itis partly chemistry.
15 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Of course, the off-line 16 problem is nothing really new.
As you go back and look 17 over the past years, and you look at plants that have 18 been off-line, a large amount of the time has tended to 19 be due to steam generator problems.
So it is not 20 something sudden.
I 21 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs No.
Still and all, I will' 22 go to plants and find instances of being out of l
I 23 specifications.
The chemist taking the sample knows, l
l 24 but it is not known up the line adequately to take early 25 corrective actlon to correct that out of specification l
ALDWISoM REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRG4NBA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202 564 2346
44 1 condition.
2 The very first area I cited as needing 3 improvement was the involvement of the managers and 4 supervisors in the details of station operation.
5 Improvement in that area would, of course, improve the
)
6 remaining areas I discussed.
7 Perhaps the most important thing INPO can do 8 to improve safety in the industry is to stimulate more 9 involvement and more meaningful involvement of managers 10 and supervisors.
That is what we are trying to do.
11 Hany managers and supervisors do Tot know how to look or 12 what to look for.
That goes back to the slide I showed 13 you of INPO 's efforts to look at performance and results 14 which is still up there.
15 At INPO, we are trying to teach a group, of 16 people how to do that.
We hope to pass that expertise 17 on to the industry.
The program that provides INPO with l
18 loaned personnel from the industry, in which we have l
l 1S some 40-plus now, is helping that effort.
To the extent 20 that we are successful in stimulating improved 21 management and supervision, our efforts will be 22 multiplied many times.
23 INPO is a small organization, to be really 24 successful, we must achieve success in getting the 25 industry to evaluate and improve itself.
Al. DER 8oM REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
.i 45 1
In January of this year, we held our third 2 plant managers workshop, 109 people representing 58 3 utilities, and nine foreign countries attended.
The 4 plant managers from 48 of the 50 operating nuclear 5 stations attended.
The principal thing we talked about 6 were these problems that we have been finding in the 7 industry.
8 The caport of that workshop and the comments 9 f rom those people, if they were all implemented, would to resolve all these problems.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It was an impressive l
i 12 attendance you got.
13 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Yes, it really was.
14 We had a CEO vorkshop.
I had 46 chief 15 executive officers at that workshop with 78 of their VPs 16 riding shotgun with them, their nuclear vice presidents 17 -- 46 chief executive officers, and 78 nuclear 18 executives for a two-day, full-day, workshop in which we 19 vent over all our problems.
20 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
That is very good.
l l
21 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
It was quite impressive.
22 CGENISSIONER ROBERTS:
When did that occur?
t 23 ADNIRAL WILKINSON That was August 31 and 24 September of last year.
That was the second one, we had 25 one the previous year also.
I i
i ALDER 8oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGMA AVE., S.W., WASN#eGToN. D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2348
46 1
As we conducted our early evaluations, it was 2 evident we needed to look beyond the station, at the 3 parent company to assess its ability to support and to 4 monitor performance of the station.
5 Last year, with the help of an ad hoc 6 committee of utility executives, we draf ted a set of 7 performance objectives and criteria for corporate 8 evaluations beyond the station.
9 In December, we mailed the preliminary draft 10 of those criteria to each CEO, with a request that the 11 utility conduct an appraisal of the document, and an 12 appraisal of themselves.
We asked for comments.
We 13 asked for comments, and we are getting a lot of then 14 back.
Every day I have three or four of them in my 15 mail.
16 He have scheduled a series of pilot corporate 17 evaluations in April, Hay, and June.
We vill take the 18 results of those pilots, along with the comments, to 19 refine the criteria.
That will improve the criteria and 20 our use of thea in performing meaningful evaluations.
j 21 We, also, in that review, welcome comments 22 from the NRC staff and we a re getting them.
We vill put 23 them into use, just as we did their comments relating to 24 our plant criteria.
25 B y mid-summer, we expect to include corporate ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, M
47 l
1 as a regular part of our on-going evaluations.
A copy 2 of our preliminary corporate criteria has been provided 3 to the IRC staff.
I have given some examples of 4 corporate criteria here, which I will not discuss.
I 5 have highlighted some significant things.
6 The criteria itself is a brief document, but 7 some of the statements in it are far reaching.
I 8 highlighted a few in your copies here.
I believe that 9 those criteria convey a strong message on management 10 involvement in nuclear station operation.
11 The addition of corporate activities to our 12 evaluation will be an important step, and one I believe 13 that will add to our ability to identify potential 14 improvements and to enhance operational saf ety.
15 In summary, it appears to me that the utility 16 industry's nuclear stations are being maintained and 17 safely operated by dedicated professional staffs.
There 18 is no doubt that improvements are needed and are being 19 achieved in many areas.
I am really pleased with the 20 support and cooperation that INPO is receiving from the j
21 industry and from the NRC.
22 I believe our evaluation program is l
23 contributing in some measure to the improvements being i
24 ande in the industry.
25 That completes my presentation, and we would l'
ALDWISoM REPoRTWG COMPANY,INC.
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1 like, with your time, to answer any questions.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINot Thank you.
3 I have one question that perhaps would be 4 worth discussing for a noment, and that is how do we 5 take advantage of the work that you are doing and 6 dovetail and get into our activities.
I as talking more 7 philosophically, rather than in great detail.
8 For example, we have resident inspectors, and 9 they find things, and they get them fixed.
We have PAT to teams that go out and make appraisals and work on trying 11 to get the management's attention.
We are sort of the 12 finders of the problems and getting them fixed.
We 13 don 't always do it effectively because we are generally 14 geared to inspecting only a certain fraction of the 15 activities.
l to It seems to me that what you are doing, or 17 attempting to do, and I think you are having an impact, 18 is to brino management attention to cay, "Let's avoid 19 the problems.
Let's find the problems ourselves and 20 make sure that we fixing this kind of plant."
21 Is that a fair representation of the way you 22 see it, and I an using that only to see where we fit 23 in.
Can MHC take advantage of the things you are doing, 24 and do it in such a way that we still discharge our 25 responsibilities?
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ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Yes, sir, that is a fair 2 representation.
j f
3 I want to make a point.
We don't want to 4 sound any smarter or more competent than we are.
In the 5 NRC, there are a great number of very competent people 6 doing an excellent' job.
We are trying to help do the 7 same job.
After all, we have a common purpose.
8 We have acquired a lot of support, 9 interaction, advice, guidance, and information f rom your 10 people in the job we are trying to do.
In a sense, we 11 are able to interact with those people, not in a 12 regulatory, punitive sense.
We can talk about areas of 13 improvement that are beyond the regulatory 14 requirements.
It gives us a little advantage in our 15 interaction, if I said that right.
16 In a sense, it just auquents what you are 17 doing.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I was looking for any 19 vays whereby we can take official cognizance of it and 20 utilize it.
21 NR PAIEt In the Evaluation and Assistance l
22 Division, we have been working with ICE personnel for 23 some time to capitalize on the strengths of what NRC 24 does and what we were trying to do.
There is 25 circulating among your staff, if I mar say this, and Mr.
I i
i ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASNINGToN. D.C. 20024 (200 564 2346
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-w 1 Wilkinson, a proposed MOA, a memorandum of agreement, 2 that we have worked very hard on.
If I say something
)
3 inaccurate.
l 4
I think there are ICE personnel back here.
We 5 worked very hard to formulate that in such a way that it 6 gives us an opportunity to work, as you said, on the l
7 management aspects of station operation, trying to 8 identif y laprovements that management can make and 9 dovetail that with the regional inspection activities to and IEE's activities.
11 ADMIRAL WIlKINSON:
We are trying to integrate 12 our activities.
After all, there is a shortage of 13 resources on our part, and on your part, and in 14 personnel in the industry.
For example, we were both 15 scheduled to arrive the same day at Ginna to look into 16 that incident.
We backed away.
At other times,'your 17 people have backed away.
There is no sense in 18 duplicating activities.
19 There is considerable cooperation at the 20 working level on some of these items.
As Mr. Pates 21 said, we are in the process of developing a proposed 22 memorandum of agreement to integrate some of these 23 things.
24 As you know, we have already had a memorandum 25 of agreement on exchange of operational data and r
M.DERSoM REPoRDNQ COMPANY WC, mwaamave s.w wasN aron.o.c.amumm sa zus
51 1 information from the significant event evaluation and 2 inf ormation network program.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Do you have a question?
4 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess I would like to 5 get a sense of whether you think
-- You have now 6 personally, you said, participated in all of these exit 7 interviews.
8 ADHIRAL WILKINSONs Yes.
9 CONNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Although you have 10 mentioned that you believe that their senior management 11 is really interested in improving the safety, I would 12 like to go back to the point that Chairman Palladino was 13 making earlier, the difference between the management 14 that is enthusiastic about making specific corrections, i
15 once you have identified them versus the management that tois strongly interested in setting up programs and 17 supporting the programs down the line that will ensure 18 tha t those problems don 't occur.
You have now visited all of those plants, 19 talked to all of those people, and have had such a.long 20 i
i 21 background in the very high quality cottrol s'ide of the 22 use of nuclear power, what is your general sense?
ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
In regard to that 23 i
24 question, and the question earlier asked by the i
Chairman, which I did not answer at that time because I 25
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I was going to talk corporate.
If you were to talk to 2 each one of the CEOs, of course, they are all 3 interested.
The problem is that in some cases, they' 4 don 't have the mechanism to set up.
They are not doing 5 it.
6 There is a difference between interest and 7 proper implementation.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
9 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Although we did not go 10 over it in detail, remember I said that we were adding a 11 look nt corporate to our evaluations by mid-summer.
We 12 have provided to them all corporate criteria for looking 13 at corporate.
14 If those criteria are met, not only will they 15 have the interest, but they will have the mechanism and 16 they will be doing it.
That is why I said that f. hose 17 were powerful criteria.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs.
Just the ones you have 19 listed here.
20 ADEIR AL WILKINSON :
I believe that anyone 2t would have the interest, but the degree of 22 implementation is quite variable and in some cases the 23 weakness is in the mechanism for the implem.entation.
So 24 when corporate is added, we will be looking at the 25 mechanism and the implementation, as well as the ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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1 interest, which of coure is there.
.s 3
2 CONNISSIONEH AHEARNE:
Certainly.
1.
3-I find these particularly interesting, 4 particularly the last one on your last page.
t 5
CHAIBMAN PALLADINCs I am still trying to put i -
6 this whole thing into perspective in my mind.
Let me 7 put some things on the board and see if they have to be 8 erased, e
. hey are right.
9 In a sense, you are auditing the performance 10 of these utilities.
Are you getting into enough detail 11 where you say, let me stay with construction for just a l
12 moment, I an auditing their construction.
Are you i
13 thinking of perhaps go,ing to design, in this sense, and j
14 auditing their design? '
15 I as thinking back to a statement that I made s
c 18 at a San Francisco speech where I referred to the fact 1.
17 tha t management doesn 't always have th e time to look out 18 for its own best interests. 'For example, they get 19 financial audit teams to evalbate 'their finances, to I
20 make sure that everything is goi g. on' as it should.
o s
21 Perhaps they ought to borrow that c'oncept and make r
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22 quality assurance audit programs.
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23 I as trying to see if that is part of that 24 same kind of a th rus t, and would this c'onstitute an 25 independent audit of either construction or design l
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400 viname:A Ave., s.w; wasHINaToN, D.C. 20024 (20m $54-2346
r 1 operations, or whatever you are thinking of?
2 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Let as to that both in-3 general and related to construction.
4 You, the NBC, have lots of, plenty of, and 5 good requirements to the industry.
Related to 6 construction, you require them to develop plans for this 7 and plans for that, and they are good.
The utilities 8 have developed plans.
9 The problem is in the implementation of the to rulcs and regulations of the plans.
By looking at 11 performanca, and performance is examples.
Both in 12 operation and it will be so also when we come to 13 construction, you have to look at details and see there 14 are things wrong.
But those details are not details 15 just to be corrected, ther are symptomatic of some kind to of a management systes probles.
Our individual e'xamples 17 here show that something needs to be improved for 18 preventing that type of thing from happening.
19 It will be the same in construction review.
20 But to get to it, you are going to have to look at the 21 detail to show that therais something wrong.
There is 22 nothing wrong wit'h the rules that have been put out.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Let me stick to 24 construction for a moment.
Would you consider your 25 evaluation on construction to be an independent audit of l
ALDERSoN REPofmHG COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVf S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2023 564-2346
55 1 the implementation of the required compliance with the 2 construction criteria?
3 I am just trying to understand where this all 4 fits together.
5 NR. PAIE:
As you know, we have not done 6 construction audits, construction evaluations yet.
We 7 are working on criteria for that.
We are trying to 8 stru'cture the criteria not too unlike the corporate 9 criteria we have shown examples of.
But ve recognize 10 'tha t they need to be considerably greater in scope and 11 depth.
12 Our intent is to use those criteria to 13 evaluate the utility's ability to find their own 14 problems, to manage their own project and, like we do in 15 an analogous way in the operating evaluations, find to examples of things that have gone wrong, which in effect 17 constitutes an audit or an audit type technique, and use 18 those to relate to management issues, to tracking systen 19 issues, to design control issues.
20 Does that answer your question ?
21 CHAIRNAN PALLADINO:
Yes.
22 ADMIRAL WILKINSON4.
We hope, when we finish 23 these criteria, and some instructions on their use, and 24 I as talking of the contruction thing, by September, to 25 have each utility do a self-evaluation, whether that is l
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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I done by some of their own people, and I believe in many 2 cases they vill need to contract it out, we are going to 3 get a quick look at a self-evaluation a t each utility.
4 I as trying to ha ve, I as planning to have one 5 person from INPO with each of those utilities 6 self-ev'aluations.
I as going to get those 7 self-evaluations back, and I am going to QA them, and 8 see if they look adequate.
I predict that some of then 9 vill need to be augmented or amplified.
We vill go back to and say, "Look, this is not a substantive look at this 11 criteria because."
12 We only have so many resources, I think the 13 self-evaluation is the fastest way to get a look at 14 all.
Like our request for a self-look at corporate was 15 a f ast way to get a look at all, so we could correct our 16 criteria, and by summer add it to our program.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
So far, all your 18 evaluations have been on operational plants, from what I I
19 understand?
20 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Yes, sir.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Are you going to 22 construction next, and then you are planning to go to i
23 design?
24 ADMIRAL EILKINSON:
We have looked at all 25 operating plants first round, and we have started the i
o ALDER $oN REPofmMG CoM7ANY,INO, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W. WA8NINGToN, D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2345
57 1 second round.
2 We call Dr. Pate's division, the Evaluation 3 and Assistance Division, and we got lots of comments 4 back, "Where is this assistance?"
5 (Genecal laughter.)
'8 ADHIRAL WILKINSON:
We started this year 7 assistance visits to near-ters operating licensees and 8 TOL plants.
In addition to the second round of 9 evaluations of operating plants that has started, we to have been to seven N'iOL plants in assistance visits.
11 NR. PACE:
Those visits are to assist them in 12 preparing to operate. though.
We don't look at 13 construction per se.
14 ADHIBAL WILKINSON :
We have looked a little 15 bit at the problem of turnover from construction through 16 the pre-op testing to operations, but we are not at the 17 present time looking at quality of construction.
We 18 von 't until we have finished the criteria.
to CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0t I gather you are planning 20 to do that.
21 ADMIRAL WILKINSONE Yes, sir.
22 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO Are you planning to do 23 something similar on design, or is that beyond your 24 intended scope?
~~
25 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
I think that our design l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. #ASNINGToN. D.C. 20024 (20lD 554-2346
58 1 look will be at the design control.
We are not going to 2 verify that containment was of the proper size, or that 3 the flow of fluids was at the proper amount, or the 4 amount of water.
But we will check to see that what the 5 design was has been properly controlled, includinc 6 modifications, etc.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0 s I think you are making a 8 very valuable contribution.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Dennis, don't answer 10 this if you have covered it while I was out.
11 Do you see patterns in good performance versus 12 less good performance.
Is it small companies, big 13 companies, or companies, one reason or another reason?
14 A re there any particular characteristics that stand out 15 of the good performance, or is it a matter of just 16 having somebody at the top dho really cares.
17 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs I am going to let you 18 talk, too.
19 First, no.
I had thought that a big company 20 with a lot more resources would give me a pattern of 21 better, but in f act some just one unit things do really 22 vell.
The one thing that I have found that correlates 23 the most is the competence of the plant management.
24 Now it is your turn.
25 MR.PA[Es I think Mr. Wilkinson said it all.
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1 A small single unit station appears to us to be easier 2 to operate, but it doesn't mean that large multiple unit 3 stations are not run well.
I think it is just the
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4 complexity and the sccpe of the problem.
5 I certainly agree with Mr. Wilkinson that the 6 competence of the plant manager outweighs those other 7 f actors considerably.
8 COEMISSIONER GILINSKY4 Someone must have 9 insisted that there be a competent plant manager, do you 10 see that as a randon occurrence?
11 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs No, I don't think it is 12 insistence.
13 CONNISSIONER GILINSKY s Just getting somebody 14 who turns out well?
15 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
I think some people are 16 better than others, have had a better opportunity for 17 experience.
18 COMNISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is just like a unit 19 commander.
Some ships and some divisions are much 20 better than others, and it traces back to the guy at the i
21 t op.
22 CHAIRMAM PALLADINO:
I would like to ask this, 23 and it is just a detail about time frame.
These 24 evaluations you have made, over what period of time do 25 they extend?
When did they start?
Are they just I
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1 getting completed?
'2 ADMIRAL WILKINSONs We finished the first 3 round, where the last evaluation was December the 17th 4 of last year.
We originally had planned to do an l
5 evaluation annually.
We have not been able to acquire 6 and properly train enough people to do an annual-I 7 evaluation based on the fact, also, that more plants are a coming along.
9 I had hoped to get to ten qualified teams, and 10 I only have six.
But we finished the first round on the 11 17th of December.
When was the first one?
12 NR. PATTs It was 5.pril of 1980.
13 ADMIRAL VILKINSON:
In April of 1980, and at 14 that time we only had one team.
At the present, with 15 the qualified people we have, we are at a rate of about 16 15 month s.
With your PAT team, you have the saae 17 problem.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Are there any other 19 questions 7 20 (No response.)
21 CHAIRNAN PALLADINO We thank you very much.
22 It has been very valuable.
We do believe that you are 23 making a significant contribution.
We should continue 24 to work to see how to best take advantage of it.
(
25 ADMIRAL WILKINSON:
Thank you, sir.
l l
ALDWISoM REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (20D 564 2346
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1 1
CHAIREAN PALLADINO:
The meeting is 2 adjourned.
3 (Whereupon, at 11:30 a.m., the meeting 4 adjourned.)
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 ~
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY CO.W SSION This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the canssIm' MEETING in the matter of:
Public Meeting - Briefing on Nuclear Power Plant Survey (INPO)
Date of Proceeding:
March 19, 1982' Docket tiumber:
Place of Proceeding:
Washington, D. C.
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript L
thereof for the file of the Commission.,
t Patricia A. Minson Official Reporter (Typed) e
~
C - j, L l -
f / JA >,. t -
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official Reporter (Signature) l e
L
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March 16,1982 J"
%'5 SCHEDULING NOTES FOR BRIEFING ON NUCLEAR POWER PLA'iT SURVEY (I!!?O)
(h 5
' SCHEDULED:
10:00 a.m., Friday, March 19 J
DURATION:
2 hours2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br /> AGENDA:
I.
Brief Introduction / Update on INPO Programs II.
Description of Plant Evaluation Methodology III. Observations IV.
Discussion / Response to Questions E
I PARTICIPANTS:
Admiral Eugene P. (Dennis) Wilkinson I
Peter Lyon, Director of Radiological Protection and Emergency Preparedness Division, INPO, and 3
Dr. Zachariah T. Pate, Director of Evaluation and Assistance Division, INPO, will be present to j
answer questions.
j l
e 4
4 I