ML20040B702

Transcript of 820123 Limited Appearance Hearing 2 in New York,Ny.Pp 475-531

ML20040B702
Person / Time
Site:	Indian Point
Issue date:	01/23/1982
From:	Czerepak A, Farrelly T CONSOLIDATED EDISON CO. OF NEW YORK, INC.
To:
References
ISSUANCES-SP, NUDOCS 8201260333
Download: ML20040B702 (58)

Text

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V BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOAh.D O

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CONSOLIDATED EDISON COMPANY OF NEW YORK

)

(Indian Point, Unit 2)

) DOCKET NOS.

) 50-247 SP POWER AUTHORITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK ) 50-286 SP l

(Indian Point, Unit 3)

)

)

O DATE: January 23, 1982 pag 33 475 thru 531 AT:

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.uDEILSOX REPORT 1XG

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400 Virg" d a Ave., 5. *4.

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2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA i

3 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l

4 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD l

i l- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 5

6 7

In the Matte r of:

1 8

Docke t Nos.

9 CONSOLIDATED EDISON COMPANY OF NEW YORK :

50-24*I SP l

1 10 (Indian Point, Unit 2) 50-286 SP I

l 11 i

12 POWER AUTHORITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK:

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l 13 (Indian Point, Unit 3)

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i 17 Clark stown Town Hall J

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1 18 New City, New Yo rk I

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19 1

l 20 Sa turday, January 2 3, 1982 j

21 4

22 Limi ted Appearances Hearing No. 2 i O l

23 (con t ' d. ) in the above-entitled matte r convened,

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1 24

pursuant to notice, a t 9

15 o ' clock a.m.

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476 4

2 BEF0RE :

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LOUIS J. CARTER, Chairman l

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4

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Administrative Judge l

4 5

Atomic S.afety and Licensing Board 6

l OSCAR H.

PARIS, Member j

4 l

7 Administrative Judge 8

Atomic Saf ety and Licensing Board l

1 l

9 FREDERICK J. SHON, Member j

10 l

Administrative Judge I

11 Atomic Safety Licensing Board I

1 12 l

i

)

13 l APPEARANCES:

(b 14 l

On behalf of the Licensee Consolidated Edison Company I

15 of New York:

j 16 THOM AS J. FARRELLY, E SQ.

I j

17 i

ANDREW J. CZEREPAK, ESO.

18 Assistant General Counsel I

i 19 Consolidated Edison Company l

i 20 I

o f New Yo rk, Inc.

21 l

4 Irving Place 22 New Yo rk, New Yo rk 10003

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E

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477 1jp 2

on behalf of Petitioner Power Authority of iV 3

the State of New York 4

6 PAU L F. CO LARU LLI, ESQ.

i 4

i i

l 5

l JOS EPH J. LEVIN, JR.,

ESQ.

I 1

6 Morgan Associates, Chartered 7

1899 L.

Street, N.W.

8 Washington, D. C.

20036 9

I 10 DAVID H.

PIKUS, ESQ.

11 Shea & Gould, Esgs.

I 12 330 Madison Avenue l

13 I

New Yo rk, New Yo rk 10017 l

14

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15 CHARLES M.

PRATT, ESQ.

i 16 l

Power Authority of the I

i 17 State of New York i

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10 Columbus Circle i

i 19 New Yo rk, New Yo rk 10019 i

i 20 21 22 I

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478 2

On behalf of Petitioner County of Rockland i

3 ERIC THORSEN f {)

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County of Rockland 5

11 New Hempstead Road j

6 New City, New York 10956 7

8 On behalf of The Port Authority of New York and I

9 New Jersey 10 CHARLES R. MAIKISH, ESQ.

t 11 The Port Authority of New York and 12 New Jersey i

13 One World Trade Center 14 I

New Yo rk, New Yo rk 10048 15 f

16 On behalf of Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staf f-17 JANICE MOORE, ESQ.

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18 I

JOHN HANNON i

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Nuclear Regulato ry Commission i

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l 20 Washington, D. C.20555 l

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2 IN DEX 3

SPEAKER PAGE

,I lAtkins,RenardArthur 4

509 l

5 i Brady, Ma rga ret 524 i

6 Burgess, Arthur 517 j

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7 I

Burgess, Francesca 8

For Roger Phenix 520 9

Elliott, Eilene 502 10 Giske, Howa rd J.

505 11

. Gromack, Alex 512 i

i 12 Hauplma u, John 485

! Johnson, 13 Robert T.

491

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14 i Kallen, Elizabeth 516 i

15 Kraus, James 497 a

l 16 Pow li ck, Ray 515 17 Sawye r, Russell C.

495 i

18 Schmid, Chris 506 19 Sha h, Dr. B.K.

482 20 i

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22

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25 26 l

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480 2

PROC EED INGS 3

3 JUDGE CARTER:

Good morning.

The limited I

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appearances proceeding is now in order in the matter of 4

5 Consolidated Edison Company of New York, Indian Point Unit 4

6 No.

2, Docket No. 50-247 SP, and Power Authority of the l-7 State o f New Yo rk, Indian Point Unit No.

3, Docket 50-286 8

SP.

This is the third of the limited appearances J

j 9

proceedings.

We are the Atomic Saf ety and Licensing Board 10 delegated to hear the evidence in this investigation.

I 11 To my left is Judge Frederick J.

Shon, who is an 12 engineer and physicis t, graduate of Columbia University and 13 University of California, where he taugh t nuclear i

l 14 engineering.

Judge Shon was formerly the chief of the 1

}

15 l division of licensing and chief of the reactive safety 1

i i

16 i

department of the U. S. Atomic Energy Commission.

He has I

I I

l j

17

' been a consultant to the Danish Atomic Energy Commission

)

i i

18 and has written numerous articles and papers for scientific j

19 j ou r nals.

i 20 To my righ t is Judge Oscar H.

Paris, who i

l 21 received his Bachelor 's and Master 's degrees f rom the l

22 University of North Carolina and his Ph.D from the

()

j 23 University o f Cali fornia.

He was a prof esso r zoology at J

24 l Berkeley and prof essor of zoology and physiology at the j (_ _h l

l J

25 l University of Wyoming and the diracto r of Wyoming i

i 26 University's Jackson Hole Research Station.

He has l,

4 4

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1 491 i

2 received many honors and, fellowships including Phi Beta 3

Cappa and is a fellow of the American Association for the 4

Advancement of Science.

He has published scientific papers '

O i

5

! and reports in the areas of population ecology, radiation 6

! ecology, and environmental impact assessments.

l 7

I am Louis J. Carter, chairman of the Board, and 8

a lawyer.

9 Present today at the f ront tables are the 10 attorneys for the parties Consolidated Edison, the Power I

11 Authority, and the NRC staf f.

The Nuclear Regulatory 12 Commission staf f techttically is an adversary party and is f

13 separate and distinct f rom this Licensing Board.

O 14 We rule on objections posed by these parties and 15 we rule on the evidence and other ma tters.

Today we shall 16 only receive limited appearances to permit members of the i

17 l p ub li c, either through oral or written statements, to i

18 lpresenttheiropinionsontheissuesinthiscase.

These i

19 s tatements a re put in the public file of the case, bu t 20 since they are not under oath and because there is no I

I i

l l

21 I cross-examination, they are not strictly part of the I

i i

22 l avidence in the formal record of the case.

j O

I 23 I

Perwns giving statements as limited appearances I

24 l will be limited to five minutes for their presentations.

I l

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25 l will hold up this one-minute sign to give you notice that l

26 l you should conclude your remarks in the next 60 seconds as

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1 482 2

a courtesy to the other speakers.

l l

3 There will be no smoking in this room nor

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4 distribution of literature.

1 5

The order of your appearance will generally be 6

i in the order that slips are received by our staf f member 7

Mr. Hamilton, who is seated in the rear to the right.

i l

8 In conclusion, I want to assure you that we will i

9 consider your statements very seriously, and you can help 10 us by clearly explaining your concerns.

Your statements 11 will be taken down stenographically, so please speak slowly i

I 12 and clearly.

i l

l 13 Do we have a list, Mr. Hamilton, of the proposed rej 14 speakers?

15 l

We have two slips here, one for Dr. B.

K.

Shah, f

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.l 4

I l

16 l SHAH, and John Hauptman.

Dr. Shah, will you step up to l

i 17

! the right to where the microphone and the lectern is.

l l

l 18 State your f ull name and spell your last name.

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19 DR. SHAH:

Thank you.

My name is Dr.

B.

K. Shah, l

l l

l 20 I SHAH.

I am a former Fullbright scholar, statistician,

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l 21 and expert in the area of evaluating technical data 22 generated from nuclear industry.

()

23 I have high respect for people involved in l

l 24 developing cheap energy for the State of New York and for (b

_ _J 25 the coun t ry.

However, I am concerned about the following 4

26 problems which have come to my attention within the last l

i

1 1

1 483 2

two years.

As I make a statement here that I am involved j

3

! in evaluating technical data submitted by the industry.

I I

i t

4 It nas come to my attention that this data have

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4 5

l been tampered by the indust ry under f alse af fidavits, and 6

so on.

It is very di f ficult for statisticians like myself

]

7 to evaluate this technical data, because when we find out l

8 that this technical data are wrong and submi tted under oath, I

l 9

I it seems to me that we are really in danger of jeopardizing 4

l 10 the interest of the people and also of science.

4 11 I am concerned about his fact, and I thought to l

12 l share this opinion in a public document here.

1 i

i 13 i

JUDGE CARTER:

I'm sor ry, Docto r, I didn ' t

()

l 14 understand that last statement.

The first thing I didn't i

15 understand is whether you said the data was tampered or 16 i t em p e r ed, and the second thing I didn't understand was your i

17

las t sentence.

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18 DR. SHAH:

Of the technical data which has been l

19

, submitted to the government agencies, this data has been l

I f alsified under oath, and I am shocked to learn of these 20 l

l i

21 facts when it has come to my attention.

I urge the members 22 of the regulatory agencies, atomic powe r agencies, and all (2) 1 23 the agencies to act prudently to stop such an activity, j

I which will help all of us and not just the one group or the 24 i

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I 25 i other group.

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i 26 i

JUDGE CARTER:

Do you have anything specific?

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DR. SHAH:

I have specifics in my mind but I 3

don't think I can discicae certain information in this 4

public hearing.

5 JUDGE CARTER:

If you have such information or

]

6 evidence, would you contact the members of the staff, these I

7 are the people sitting here, this gentleman and this lady, 8

and discuss with them whatever information you have that 9

you f eel should come to the a ttention of the Board.

We 4

10 will use whatever powers we legitimately have to protect I

11 the confidentiality of the informa tion which you pr ; vide.

l l

I 12 DR. SHAH:

Thank you, sir.

13 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you.

j i

14 In connection with Dr. Shah, it is the action of i

i 15 l the Board that staf f is directed to f urther investiga te the l

16 l allegations of Dr. Shah and take such action as is i

l l

17 l appropriate in bringing the f urther informa tion before the i

l 18 Board.

i 19 MS. MOORE:

We will do that.

If Dr. Shah will 20 stop by and speak with us before this proceeding ends, we i

i 21 will begin the i nve s tiga tion.

j 22 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you.

()

l 23 Dr. Shah, please rema in, i

i t

24 Mr. Levin?

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25 MR. L EVIN :

The wi tness didn't say anything f

26 about it being Indian Point-related.

Although I am sure i

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1 485 2

that the staff will be interested in whatever he has to say, 3

it would be nice to clarify that one way or the other.

4 l

JUDGE CARTER:

Dr. Shah, did you wa n t to say

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l 5

i something?

6 DR. SHAH:

It is not a question of one party or 7

i the other party.

I am ref erring to his statement.

Not one I

8 party or the other party.

Wh a t I am t rying to say to you 1

9 is we are trying to do a public good, and I think in the 10 I

interest of the public certain directors of Indian Poini 2,

r 11 under oath they are violating so much information, and that 12 is why I am concerned about i t.

I think all of us should 13 be concerned about this safety of the people, rather than

()

14 just one really people trying to hide to data and trying to l

15 do something wrong.

This is what I am concerned about.

16 JUDGE CARTER:

I interpret your answer as being

!l l the information you have relates to Indian Point either 17 i

j di rectly o r indirectly.

18 I

19 DR. SHAH:

Yes, sir.

I 20 l

JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you.

The staff will r

21 i discuss the matter with you in a little while.

1 22 Mr. Hauptman, John Hauptma n of Theills, New Yo rk,

23 THEI L L S, New Yo rk.

24 MR. H AU PTMAN :

Yes, sir.

In the interest of I

25 i

fairness and justice, may I make a request prior to my 26 speech?

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486 l

2 JUDGE CAP ER:

Yes.

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MR. HAUPTMAN:

Yesterday, a gentleman complained i

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about a brochure that was slanted to the nuclear industry,

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! and at that time you asked that all pamphlets and brochures I

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be made ava ilable to you.

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JUDGE CARTER:

No.

I asked that there be no 8

distribution of material -- do you remember the name?

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9 MR. H AU PTMAN :

It was a prof essor f rom Lehman l

l College.

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JUDGE PARIS:

He may be thinking of the survey i

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12 l that the licensees conducted with respect to evacuation.

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13 l

MR. H AU PTM AN :

Yes, I am.

14 JUDGE PARIS :

We asked them to provide us with h

i i

15 copies of those, f

16 l

MR. H AU PTMAN :

I would like to request f rom you i

l gentlemen, I understand in the next several weeks a f

17 l

18 l pamphlet or a brochure at the ratepayers expense will be I

t i

19 i mailed to all homes in the 10-mile emergency planning zone.

l I

20 I would ask you gentlemen to review those pamphlets to make 21 sure that they are f air, that they are not slanted or 22 propaganda for the nuclear industry.

Would you please be

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23 kind enough to do that?

24 JUDGE CARTER:

All r igh t.

Is that your total (JI 25 statement?

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26 MR. H AU PTMAN :

No, sir.

I would like to make i t, i

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487 2

i f I ma y, n ow.

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3 In Rockland County more than 115,000 people live i

4 l within 10 miles of Indian Poin t, and we have no wo rkable i O 5

I realistic evacuation plans.

We have no f unds, personnel, j

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l 6

or equipment to implement evacuation.

Because of its roads I

7 and terrain, no plan could safely evacuate North Rockland t

8 in time to prevent its population from being contaminated.

9 The entire road system in this area consists of 1

i 10 I narrow country roads.

The only north / south road between i

l it the parkway and the river is 9W, a treacherous piece of 12 road, so narrow in many places that a single accident could 13 l stop all traffic.

Many residents avoid 9W under ideal O

4 14

conditions.

To further complicate matters, every road has i

l inhabitants living along its sides.

One car pulling out of j

15 I

16 a driveway stops all movement.

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Route 202, an east / west road connects with the i

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18 Palisades Pa rkway a t Mt. Ivy.

It also has apartment l

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19 complexes wi th thousands of ca rs.

A mass exodus will l

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l 20 gridlock all escape routes between Mt. Ivy and 9W, 21

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including the traf fic on the parkway.

There is no way out.

22 If an evacuation is attempted, gridlock will trap 100,000 O

i 23 people.

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24 j

only the foolish and irresponsible could believe lO i

25 that the entire civilian population will behave as directed 26 i n s uc h a n eme rgency.

I believe that 40 percent of the 2

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1 488 2

people will act in an irrational and panic stricken manner.

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l 3

What will result will be rampant civil disobedience, a l

4 nigh tma re of f righ tened, stranded people, of burning 5

vehicles and lifeless bodies on our roads.

6 The much disputed evacuation plan is a farce, 7

It is totally inadequate.

It contains f ar too many j

8 deficiencies.

It simply can't work, most especially since i

9 much of it is based on assumption, conjecture, and j

10

s uppo s i tion.

11 I call upon the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to i

l I

i i

12 l

immediately stop its dangerous practice of extending i

i 13 deadlines, of easing regulations, and the f ailure to strictly (b

14 l enforce its own rules, the same rules and regulations which 15 we re established for our protection.

i 16 We are dealing with the most powerf ul and deadly 4

j 17 l source of energy yet known, a force so awesome in scope l

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18 that it demands no margin for error, no room for mistakes.

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19 Yet the keeper of this deadly force, con Edison, is often i

i 20 l criticized by the Nuclear Regillatory Commission.

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21 Only recently this management was ref erred to as 22 being below par.

According to a recent article, Con Edison

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23 was fined $40,000 for violating radiation protection i

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24 requirements, by failing to properly record radiation f

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25 exposure to workers at Indian Point 2.

26 If Con Ed can be lax in one area, they can be

1 489 2

lax in other areas.

If the lives of a f ew can be

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jeoardized, then so could the lives of many.

4 We a re constantly told of ma rvelous 5

sophisticated devices that will warn of impending danger,

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6 of impeccable systems specifically designed to prevent

)

7 mishap.

Yet with all this Star Trek technology, Con Edison l

8 still couldn't tell its own reactor vessel was sitting in 9

100,000 gallons of rive r water.

t 10 In conclusion, I believe a major accident at I

11 Indian Point is inevitable.

If such a disaster occurs, if 4

12 peopic a re killed, if property is rendered worthless, the 13 cause may be Con Edison or any number of factors, but the iO 14 blame and responsibility will f all solely on the shoulders i

15 of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

The first duty of I

16 i g ove r nme n t is to protect its citizens.

The prima ry duty of 17 the NRC is to ensure such a holocaust never takes place j

18 even if the only sure guarantee is to have the courage for j

19 close Indian Point forever.

i I

20 I pray to God you gentlemen, I don't know who i

i i

21 makes the decision, but I pray it is the right one, because j

l 22 if it isn't, we get the easy way ou t.

We only have to die i

23 with it.

The decision-makers have to live with it.

I 24 thank you for your time and I wish you a saf e journey home, (V~%

l 25 especially in this weather.

+

i i

26 JUDGE CARTER:

If you distribute any public I

I

l l

1 490 i

2 communications in connection with Indian Point, we direct 3 O 3

copies of those be sent to the Board.

l 4

i MR. FARRELLY:

Any communications at all or t

O 5

specifically the communi ation related t.; this pamphlet the 6

gentleman is ref erring to?

7 JUDGE CARTER:

Which relates to the operation of 8

Indian Point.

i MR. L EVIN :

Your Honor, i f I migh t, I think the 9

10 pamphlet that that the witness was referring to is the 11 emergency planning pamphlet which the licensee is required 12 to distribute under the regulations.

Certainly we will be l

13

. happy to provide the Board with a copy of that.

O 14 JUDGE CARTER:

What I am saying is that I would l

15 j like us to receive all communications that go to the public, I

16 l whether it is a document that has been required or ordered I

17 o r whether it is me rely one that the management, in its 18 opinion, f eels should be sent to the public.

It is l

l' 19 important in the short time that we have between now and I

20 the end of the summer to be sure that we have the same 21

informa tion that the public has.

22 MR. THORSEN:

Judge, could I ask that you extend 23 that mailing to the entire of ficial list so that all the 24 interested states and intervenors can also receive copies?

25 JUDGE CARTER:

I think that is a good suggestion.

.t 26 MR. THORSEN:

Thank you, Judge.

I I

l 1

491 2

JUDGE CARTER:

And in fact under the ex parte O

3 rule I think it would be required.

4 Mr. Robert T. Johnson of --

5 MR. LEVIN:

Your Hono r, I would not agree that 6

i distribution required under the regulation would be subject l

7 I

to the ex parte rule for distribution purposes, although we 8

have no objection to distributing copies of the pamphlet.

9 The public will receive them.

10 JUDGE CARTER:

I won ' t ma ke a f o rma l ruling on 11 it.

I will just tell you that I think under the i

12 l circumstances of this case if you are communicating with 13 the Board, any documents being communicated to the Board O

14 j

should be communicated to all the parties.

l 15 MR. LEVIN: This is a public document.

16 MR. FARRELLY:

Just to clarify the point, these 17 are communications to the public on Indian Point?

18 JUDGE CARTER:

Yes.

l 19 Mr. Johnson.

I 20 MR. JOHNSON:

Yes, sir.

Chairman Carter, l

I e

21 nembers of the Board, friend and neighbors.

I am not hr ce I

22 to speak of Indian Point's saf ety.

It3 record speaks for i

O i itse1f.

Nor w111 I discuss the me3or eegects of the 23 i

24

! evacuation plan.

My concern is with certain secondary l

25 consequences of an accident at Indian Poin t, consequences l

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26 I to which too little consideration has been given so far.

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l

1 492 l

I 2

I ()

Here in Rockland County the population density

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is much lower than it is in Westchester and Putnam across i

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the river.

As Mr. Hauptman mentioned, we only have 115,000 l ()

llivingwithintheten-mileradius.

j 5

But we have a unique i

6 situation on summer weekends here.

Thousands of people i

7 from New York City, from Westchester, from Putnam, from New i

8 Jersey and Connecticut, as well as f rom Rockland and Orange 1

J 9

pour into the state park f acilities.

On a typical Sunday 10 in July, for instance, there may be 20,000 people at Bear I

11 Mountain, 8,000 at Lake Tiorati, 14,000 --

l 12 JUDGE CARTER:

How do you you spell Tiorati?

13 MS. JOHNSON:

TIORAT I.

14,000 at Lake 14 Welch, where there is a large swimming area, 6,000 in the i

I 15 Anthony Wayne recreation area.

Beaver Pond and the various j

i l

16 l group camp sites in the park complex account for another 35,00d.

i l

17 i And we mustn't forget the 200 or so hikers on the trails.

18 Down to the south we have approxima tely 1700 in I

19 the High Tor area, 9800 down at Rockland Lake.

And there l

4 i

i 20 i are about 800, give or take, over at the Stony Point battle l

i 21 site here on the river.

22 JUDGE CARTER:

Mr. Johnson, what is the source

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23 of your figures?

8 1

24 MR. JOHNSON:

I contacted Mr. Nash Castro,

(.

25 general manager of the Palisades Park Commission, 26 explaining to him that I wished to appear here and make

_.7, 7

i l

1 493 2

this type of a presentation, asking him for figures.

He 3

gave me in his reply the total figures for these areas for 4

the month of July and gave me the details as to how it

~

5 breaks down weekdays, Saturdays, and Sundays.

6 JUDGE CARTER:

Was that July 1980?

i j

7 l

MR. J0liNSON :

1981, sir.

i i

l 8

JUDGE C ARTER:

Did he send you a letter?

~

I I

9 MR. JOHNSON:

Yes.

I will submit a copy of that lletterinmyreport.

j 10 I

11 l

All of these people, gentlemen, are within ten 12 miles of Indian Poin t, as you can see, and so is the U.S.

13 Military Academy at West Point.

Let's assume these people

()

i 14 came three to a car, average.

We are talking of 50,000 1

1 15 a u tomo bile s.

16 Gentlemen, we have been told that there are 4

17 sirens that will sound in case of trouble at Indian Point.

.f 18 Assuming there are and assuming that they wo rk, t ry t o 3

19 picture what will happen when they go of f.

As our 150,000 I.

I i

j 20 I visitors learned what those sirens mean, they will pile i

i 21 l into their 50,000 cars and attempt to flee the area.

22 The Park Commission tells me that its public j

23 address systems and bullhorns would be used for giving l

24 instructions to the public.

I contend, g e n tl eme n, that

()

25 those loud speakers would be about as ef f ective -- well, 26 they wouldn't be ve ry ef f ective.

These people are scared,

1 494 2

hot, tired, a lot of them have been drinking.

After 3

initial chaos in the parking areas, those 50,000 cars will 4

l hit the roads.

What roads?

The Palisades Parkway, two

(])

5 lanes south, two lanes north.

6 Route 9W, which as Mr. Hauptman said is a bad 7

road anyway, one lane south, one lane north.

8' We have Route 6 to the west, two lanes.

That is labighighway.

We have Route 6 to the east, where we have 9

10 l an immediate bottleneck a t Bear Mountain Bridge, as you il gentlemen can appreciate, having used that road.

12 We have Seven Lakes Drive which runs out to i

13 Route 17.

But Mr. Castro didn' t give us figures on Sebago i

-~

14 Lake, because it is ou tside the ten-mile ci rcuit, just.

l 6

I 15 There is another bathing area there.

Figure a few hundred i

{ more cars f rom that area and f rom outside of the park just 16 I

l 17 i outside the ten-mile radius, and it should being obvious 18 that traf fic will come to a virtual standstill.

i i

19 Wha t about us, gentlemen, who live here?

Our i

i 20

! Sunday guests have rendered our roads impassable, and we 21 are trapped.

Con Ed says the ten-mile circle can be

{

22 evacuated in seven to ten hours.

Please consider, O

23 gentlemen, what can happen here in just one hour.

Think of l

t i

24 the property damage, personal injury and potential for violence.

(

_ _J 25 Consider, too, the possible reaction of some of our local 26 t ruly native Rocklanders, those who have been here for many

l i

1 495 l

j 2

generations and are the same tough and independent breed I ()

3 that has inhabited our hills for 300 years.

4 I submit that the prospect of a nuclear accident j

) ()

i

?

5

! at Indian Point is upsetting.

The prospect of an accident 6

on a weekend in the summer is appalling.

7 I

JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

If you 8

have a smaller ve rsion of that --

1 9

MR. JOHNSON:

I have also included that in my 10 report, sir.

11 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you ve ry much.

12 Next, Mr. Russell C. Sawye r, of Marian Lane, New 1

l 13 City.

! ()

l 14 l

MR. S AWYE R:

Good morning.

I am here to talk i

15 this morning a little bit about the evacuation plan dealing 16 with the Volunteer Ambulance Corps and Emergency Medical i

17 Services.

I am a New York State emergency medical 18 technician.

I am a member of the New City Volunteer 19 l Ambulance Corps.

I have been with the corps about two and I

20 a half years now.

j 21 I had four comments to make.

One of them was, i

22 during the daytimo we only have a small number of people l

C) 23 available for du ty, which means we have usually three to i

i lfourpeopleavailableduringthedaytime,whichmeansonly 8

24 i

O I

v 25 l one rig.

Although during the evening we do have two rigs i

26 a vai la ble.

i

1 496 2

My second point is volunteer EMT's are not p

3 adequately trained in situations or procedures involving i

4 rddlation hazards.

Each EMT has to go through an eight-month

{)

i 5

training course.

However, only a very small portion of the 6

course deals with radiation hazards, about a half an hour's 7

. worth.

I 8

My third point is we presently don't have the i

9 l personal protective equipment in the ambulances required to 10 deal with radiation emergencies.

We do not have the proper 11

, clothing, the self-contained breathing apparatuses or 12 radiation monitoring equipment.

13 Fourthly, evacuation of elderly people from i

14 nursing homes would be dif ficult fo r our crews because 15 roadways would be jammed and we would have a low number of 16 EMT's available during the daytime.

So i t would be ve ry 17 dif ticult to mobilize these people rapidly.

18 JUDGE CARTER:

Are you saying EMT, eme rgency 19

! medical --

l 20 MR. SAWYER:

Eme rgency medical technician.

I l

21 wanted to finally say that under conditions of a high i

i 22 radiation leak the procedures that were written for the

()

i 23 l ambulance and emergency medical crews would be difficult to g

l i

24 implement.

Thank you ve ry much.

l

(

I

-J 25 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you, Mr. Sawyer.

l l

26 Any other members of the public who wish to be

1 497 2

heard?

If not, we will take a short recess and reconvene 3

at 10 o' clock if any f urther members of the public arrive.

4 Let the record show that it has been snowing now for O

5 several hours and the accumulation appears to be at least 6

four inches.

We will adjourn now until 10 o' clock.

7 (Recess taken.)

8 JUDGE CARTER:

We have two more slips here, one 9

from James Kraus'and the other Eileen Elliott.

Mr. Kraus, 10 will you come forward to the lectern.

This is James Kraus, 11 21 Heights Road, Stony Point, New York.

12 MR. KRAUS:

Good morning.

It is a great day for 13 an evacuation.

It was pretty dif ficult getting down here

- O l

14 f rom Stony Point.

15 I just want to talk about some of my neighbors, 16 and I feel I am speaking for them also, for whom an 17 evacuation plan, rega rdless of some of the things we h e n d 18 yesterday about routing, about road conditions, about 19 weather conditions, it is all irrelevant for them.

Stony 1

20 Point is a community that has many elderly residents, t

21 I

people who have been there for years.

I have lived there l

22 for ten years.

There are people at the end of the driveway 23 of my home, for instance, just people who are neighbors.

24 The Travises live there.

He is about 80.

Edna 25 i s a bou t 7 5.

They live with her mother, who is 90.

She l temembers this area before there was any nuclear plant here.

26 I

1 498 2

In fact, she remembers this area before there was a park, 3

Bear Mountain Pa rk.

She used to live in that park, before a

[}

there was electricity in this area also.

She used to live 4

5 in the pa rk.

She talks about shooting animals to protect i

6 her household.

She moved out of the park when by eminent t

7 domain they took that area and converted it into a park.

l 8

She doesn't go ou t.

She is almost 93 and she has 9

difficulty.

It is irrelevant for her purposes what kind of 10 plan people come up with, i

11 Stony Point, as has been said often enough, is 12 less than a mile away f rom the plant.

It has a volunteer i

13 ambulance service.

It has a volunteer fire department.

14 l And of course a small police force.

These people, in terms 15 of evacuation, of course, will be primarily concerned with l

16 i their families, i

17 Across the street is somebody else, Mrs. Barton.

18 Nebody is really sure how old she is.

She is in her I

19 nineties.

She lives alone in a f airly large home.

Her i

I

,i 20 husband died a number of years ago.

In fact, her husband I

I l

i r

21 l built the house that I live in, in the thirties, and built 22 it by himself.

[

()

i 23 Mrs. Barton gets on with help f rom neighbors.

j r

i 24 She doesn' t have any relatives in the area.

She gets Meals (h

25 on Wheels.

So I would like to see Meals on Wheels get 26 through when the people who run that are concerned about i

-_=

I l

1 499 L

1 2

getting their f amilies to saf ety.

We help her out, we do i ()

3 some shopping for her, so do the Travises, who have an 4

automobile.

l ()

5 For these people, regardless of the plan, you 6

are sentencing them to death or severe illness if there i

7 should be any kind of danger f rom that plant.

These are 8

not people who go out on a normal day.

Public i

9 transportation is almost nil in that area.

I moved into 10 the home, I purchased the home from my uncle and aunt, who 11 were in their late seventies.

They moved to an area where 12 they had access to public transportation.

If puelic j

13 transportation could not get them to the grocery store,

(:)

t I which it could not -- and that was one of the reasons they 14 15 moved, they we re not ill or infirm bu t they no longer drove 16 because they didn't trust themselves driving -- it 17 certainly would not help to evacuate people f rom that l

18 particular area.

j 19 I just want to emphasize, these are the kinds of 20 people who live in this area.

It is a small town with i

l 21 older homes.

The population has remained relatively stable, j

22 I checked this yesterday.

For ten years there was some O

23 rapid growth between '60 to '70.

'70 to ' 8 0 the re wa s o nly i

24 a small increase.

It is in the heart of suburbia.

But the O

25 reality of it is they are small f rame homes with older 26 people.

These people are in tremendous danger under any

,-.y

, ~ - - _ _ - -. _.

l 1

500 2

e i reums tanc es.

3 I would like to know what kind of message con Q

4 Edison is going to provide them about the evacuation 5

pro g ram.

I do not trust Con Edison.

I doubt if they do.

{

6 Con Edinon spent millions of dollars in order to def eat the 7

proposal for public utilities in Westchester, millions of 1

8 dollars.

They were successful.

I would like to know how 9

l much money they are going to spend to convince these people l

10 that this plant is saf e for them and they need not worry.

j 11 Con Ed has lied to us about the number of fish i

12 that are being killed continuously by the intake at Indian 1

13

, Point.

We don't have informa tion about that.

\\

l l

14 l

For me this plan is a little bit like an old car.

I l

If I have an old car, it keeps breaking down and doesn't 15 i

16 l get me to work, sooner or later I know that unless I get 17 rid of that thing, it is going to go of f the road and 18 something serious is going to happen.

This plant keeps 19

! breaking down, and the driver has been found grossly i

i f

20 negligent by the highest court in New York State in the 1

21 operation of oil-fired plants very recently in causing the 22 recent New Yo rk blackout, the blackout in New York City.

I 23 question how a utility that cannot successfully run 24 standard plants is capable of running an outmoded, I

1 25 obsolete atomic energy plant.

26 I notice I have just a f ew moments lef t.

I

i 1

501 2

would like to ask Con Edison a question about what 3

information is being made available, and I understand I 4

have the right to ask questions -- well, I will ask it anyway, 5

be it rhetorical.

I would like to ask them a question I

j 6

about what informa tion they are making available to the l

7 public about the evacuation plan, about who is having input i

l 8

into this informa tion, about what kind of hearings will be I

1 9

available, and as to what the information will look like 10 and when it will be distributed in the area.

i 11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you ve ry much.

13 Mr. Kraus does raise an interesting point.

()

i j

14

P r es uma bly, these meetings will be held not under the 1

l l

15 lauspicesofthiscommission.

I will assume, in furtherance i

i 16 i of my earlier request, that you will keep us advised of any I

17 meetings, and so forth, that may be held.

If Mr. Kraus is l

18 correct.

I don't know if he is correct.

1

)

19 MR. FARRELLY:

Your Honor, perhaps a point 4

i 20 should be clarified a bit.

In terms of o f f-si te planning, i

21 the primarily responsibility is with the state and 4

l 22 localities.

Licensees Con Edison and PASNY are working

)

23 with the localities and the state.

But again that is not

{

d i

i 24 our prima ry responsibility.

We are giving assistance

- ()

i 25 including moneta ry assistance.

And we are working on a I

i l

26 public informa tion program.

In other wo rds, there are 4

i

4 j

1 502 2

activities going on that we are not directly involved in.

3 JUDGE CARTER:

Is there not a schedule of i

4 hearings or meetings on this subject?

S MR. FARRELLY:

I am not aware of any such 6

schedule.

I know that a pamphlet will be available shortly, 7

an informational pamphlet.

8 JUDGE CARTER:

You will make distribution of i

9 that.

10 Eileen Elliott of 21 Heigh ts Road, Stony Point.

i j

11 MS. ELLIOTT:

Is there any possibility that you 1

{

12 could take a look a t the pamphlet that is going to be 1

}

13 distributed before it is distributed?

I understand that i (_)"

j 14 that pamphle t is to be sent out within the next month to

^~

15 every resident within ten miles of Indian Point.

i I

16

~

JUDGE CARTER:

I don't think we have the 1

17 authority to do that, and I think the cases hold under the 18 f ree speech doctrine that they may proceed with those 1

directives.

However, to the extent that there develops any 19 1

20 conflict wi th law, I assume that the appropriate action may l

I 21 l be taken.

But at this time it is hard to talk about a j

22 document that may not have been even completed yet and

(:)

4 23 which has not been distributed.

So we will just have to l

24 wa i t and s ee.

25 MS. ELLIOTT:

As a new resident of Stony Point, 26 I was horrified to find out that I am living only one mile

1 503 2

away f rom a dangerous, inef ficient nuclear plant.

In all O

3 the ads of I Love New York the praises of Indian Point are 4

well hidden.

Why advertise a disaster?

We should be able 5

to learn f rom the experiences of those who have faced the 6

horror of a nuclear accidents.

All of the preparations for 7

evacuation leave thousands of questions unanswered.

In 8

1979 my sister and her f amily lived five miles away f rom 9

Three Mile Island.

Her husband worked in Harrisburg only a 10 half mile f rom the plant.

On Friday morning of the 11 accident he was told to gather his files and leave the 12 c omp a ny.

13 He called my sister, who works at a nursery O

14 school, and he started the long process of notifying 15 parents.

Many of the parents had not heard of the accident.

16

! My brother-in-law went to get their son f rom school.

This 17 wa s abou t 12 o ' clock noon.

At 6 o' clock that night my 18 sister and her husband and her two children were still at 19 the school with these nursery children waiting for parents 20 to pick up their kids.

The normal pick-up time was 2 l

21

' o ' clock and they had stayed there until 6 waiting for 22 parents who were caught in traf fic jams, all kinds of O

23 emugencies.

24 Many of them had not been told about the l accident at O

their place of work.

Many businesses would not 25 26 release the employees until they knew what kind of an

1 504 2

accident i t wa s.

There was all kinds of conf usion in terms 3

of people being allowed to leave their jobs, people who had 4

been scheduled to babysit or take care of or provide

)

5 transportation for these children lef t.

They took their 6

own f amilies and lef t, and those children were lef t in the 7

nursery school.

She had to stay there, she couldn't leave 8

with her own f amily.

9 The roads in Stony Point are extremely hazardous I

10 1 even on a clear day.

Today they are terrible.

The snow 11 makes it impossible to get anywhere.

I am very f amiliar 12 with the loads.

I run five or six miles a day.

There are 13 l no sidewalks in Stony Point.

It is ve ry steep and

([

14 i treacherous.

It is hilly.

In places cars can barely pass l

l each other as they travel along.

15 16 l

Any evacuation plan that would include either I

17 l children walking home f rom school or people having to walk l

18 tha t no rmally ride, it would be absolutely absurd.

There j

19 is no way to avoid the traffic.

20 The time for concern about safety is before an I

21 accident occurs.

I urge you to close Indian Point.

22 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you.

O 23 Next is Howa rd J. Giske and Chris Schmid, and 24 then Renard Arthur Atkins.

O

. _j 25 Mr. Giska, 9 0 Pinehurst Avenue, New Yo rk C i ty, I

26 New York.

l i

l 1

505 2

MR. GISKE :

Hello.

I would like to say that I

)

3 am a graduate of chemical engineering at the University of a

4 l Pennsylvania and that I know that nuclear power is totally

()

i 5

safe, a totally saf e industrial process just like any other 6

chemi cal process.

I also want to say that you cannot 7

i sustain lif e and industrial growth in New York City if you i

8 cut of f 1.8 gigawatts of energy to that city.

Frankly, we 9

should build more nuclear powerplants in the Hudson valley i

10 and the whole region.

.I 11 F ra nkly, the Soviets are building a huge plant 12 to mass produce nuclear powerplants, and they don't even l

d have the sort of saf ety devices and containment vessels 13

()

l f which are normal, including a concrete half dome, which is j

14 i

i 15 normal in all U.S.

nuclear powerplants.

j 16 l

The other thing that I think is very urgent is 17 the educational question, which is how can we ask young 18 people to become engineers, to study advanced sciences, if 19 we are telling them there is going to be no science prograc, a

j 20 there is going to be no use of science allowed in the

~

21 United States.

Because if there are no opportunities for I

j 22 nuclear energy, these people are going to be forced to

(

)

j become ga rbage pickup men o r whateve r, 23 never to use their 4

24 l education.

Instead you have all these environmentalists i

()

25 l

running around on the campuses who are the movement for a l

26 new society or mobilization for survival, they are all on i

.=

4

]

1 506 i

2 pot, all wi thout any brain capacity whatsoever.

3 That is the main thing that I wanted to say.

I

(])

4 want to say that in the Soviet Union every high school 5

student is being made to study calculus.

There it was in 6

the Wersup report f rom the University of Chicago.

They are j

7 all being made to study chemistry, physics, and that these 8

people are going to be able in the Soviet Union to have a

.i 9

superior energy capacity and technological capacity.

If 4

1 l'

J 10 yo u wa n t t o ma ke the United States into a banana republic 11 I and an economic doormat of the Soviet political system, if

you wa n t the United States in a total banana republic, 12 13 i where scientists are not allowed to exist, where literate q

(s,k l

t 14 l English is totally disintegrating into this whole rock / drug

~ ~ ~ ~

i fcounterculture, 15 then shut down the plants and become like 16 G u a tama la, like Max Figgers, Nicaragua.

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you.

Mr. Chris Schmid, of 4

19 i No. 1 Cabrini Boulevard, New Yo rk City.

4 20 MR. SCHMID:

My name is Chris Schmid.

I am here 21 as a concerned citizen of New York City and New York State.

22 First of all, I would like to say that I s uppo r t O

23 wholeheartedly the testimony that has already been i

24 submi tted in these hearings, in particular the testimony I

(h

_._J 25 submitted by the previous mayoral candidate Mel Klenetsky 1

i 26 of New York City, where he identified the importance of

1 507 2

this plant to supply energy to the New York City subway O

3 system and as well identified that the issue is not simply 4

a 90-mile radius around Indian Point bu t Indian Point is a O

1 5

key element in the national power grid, and any attack l against nuclear power is an attack against the national 6

7 energy production in this country.

8 In addition, I support the testimony that has 9

been submitted by the Fusion Energy Foundation where they 10 say that any moves to shut down Indian Point are 11 essentially anticonstitutional.

I myself have been 12 involved in campaigns identifying what the nature of the 13 political network says that are against nuclear power.

In

()

I 14 1978 I was circulating leaflets at Princeton University 15 identifying that Richard Falk, who is a professor of 16 l

international law at Princeton, who has also been an I

17 adamant opponent of nuclear power, that those sentiments of 18 Mr. Falk and Mr. Falk himself should be considered non I

19 grata at Princeton.

20 If you look very closely at the antinuclear 21 l ne two rks, let 's take Mr. Falk, for example, he is a member 22 of the United Nations International Institute of World

('\\

k

23 Order.

And as a professor of international law at i

24 Princeton, he is very closely associated with the l

O 25 International Law Association.

The chairman of tha t, who 26 is also involved with the United Nations, is Lewis Mortimer

1 508 Bloomfield.

2 i

3 Testimony has been submi tted in court

! {])

4 identifying that Mr. Bloomfield was party to a conversation

-l 5

held in Winnipeg, Canada, at an airport there, in a j

6 restaurant.

What the person who reported this conversation r

l 7

caid was that the topic of the conversation was the i

j 8

assassination of John F.

Kennedy.

This conversation took I

j 9

J

. place approxima tely one month prior to Mr. Kennedy's 8

)

10 assassination.

So if we want to really understand who the I

11 antinuclear networks are, it is essentially the same i

12 netwo rks involved in international terrorism, irivolved in I

13 j drug running, involved in international drug traf fic, in

] (

l

~~

14 i the $200 billion profits which are creamed off the top of 15 that traffic.

These are the people essentially who 16 represent the element of Adolf Hitler, of Nietzche, the 1

i i

17 movement that created Facism in World War II and the I

l 18 movement tha t this country very proudly defeated in World i,

l 19 War II.

i I

20 Unfortunately, we didn't win the peace.

We i

21 didn't implement the Atoms for Peace plan of Eisenhower, i

22 one of the brave generals in that f igh t.

But myself and

(:)

23 many people I know and I am proud to work with and in 4

24 particular the people involved in the National Democratic

(

_ _a 25 Policy Committee and the Fusion Energy Foundation are 26 absolu tely commi tted to winning the peace that we came so

1 l

1 1

1 509 3

i

)

2 close to winning af ter World War II.

Thank you ve ry much.

()

J 3

JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you, Mr. Schmid.

j I

4 Next, Renard Arthur Atkins, 3730 Fort Washington l ()

l 5

i Avenue, New Yo rk City, New Yo rk.

l 6

MR. ATKINS:

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

7 As a lifetime resident of New York City, I am proud to have 8

lived in New York City.

This premiere city of the United 4

9 States, of the world, is the gathering of people from every I

part of the world over generations, the 10 or 20 generations 10 11 who made this count ry grea t.

It proves to the nation, to 12 our forefathers, as they predicted, that mankind can l

l 13 actually overcome any obstacles presented by nature.

Any

O 14 Crisis that comes up wi th envi ronmental, limi ted resources, 15 and so forth, can be overcome.

l J

16 I am here to testify on behalf of, in def ense of, 1

17 nuclear energy.

The Third World wants and has the mandate, has asked for the United States nuclear energy for the past 19

+

19 30 years or so, after the war.

It was Eisenhower's, and it i

i I

20 l was Roosevelt's plan to develop nuclear energy for the 1

1

\\

l 21 Third World.

So the horror of Facism, which can be equated 22 wi th racism, popula tion reduction, which is envi ronmentalism,

()

will never again threaten these Third World countries.

23 i

I 24 l These people, given the capacity to live, to g row, to

(~)

t 25

! determine their own futures and the futures of the i

i 4

l grandchildren for centuries to come will be insured if they 26 I

4

1 510 l

2

have the means to exploit their own natural resources.

3 Nuclear energy can prevent that process.

4 Anyone who opposes nuclear energy, who actually 5

believes that you can actually get the same kind of energy j grid and sustain a present population of some 230 million 6

7 people on solar energy, which was actually, by the way, 8

junked in the turn of the century as impractical, you are 9

condemning the United States to write off a good number of 10 its popula tion, presently half, as stated by Richard i

11 Ottinger in his National Population Policy Act obscenity 12 called HR9 07, which has now got senatorial backing and has 13 the wholehearted support of the leadership of the O-14 envi ronmental g roup.

15 How is it that Richard Ottinger and his cohorts i

16 l can actually say with authority that the United States can I

l l

17 I ce commi tted to knocking of f half this population by any i

! means necessary, by d rugs, by what Pa t Moyinhan describes 18 l as benign neglect, writing off the underclass, and I think 19 i

20 I fall in that category, since I live in which is now the 21 inner city of New York.

Once it was a middle classy section.

22 Now it has become a ghetta, Fort Washington area and Inwood.

O 23 Its own people cannot survive now because we don't have the 24 energy grid.

There are people dying right now because of i

25 this damn wea ther, because they don't have suf ficient heat, 26 because we can't draw the energy capacities.

How can we?

1 511

)

People are f reezing.

I would freeze to death i f i t wa sn' t 2

3 that I was young and able to withstand this, I would have 4

been dead.

We need unlimi ted energy.

[}

5 Nuclear energy is safe.

The only incidents of i

6 danger that arise with nuclear energy is when a whole mass, 7

a horde of the illiterate, psychotic, rampaging 8

environmentalists who claim that they want to save humanity 9

and prove that point by sabotaging nuclear energy, the 10 nuclear powerplants as in the case of France very recently, 11 l this bombing by terrorists, Red Brigades or whatever 12 associations they are allied with, sabotage o r attempted to 13 sabotage a nuclear energy installation in France.

And the O

14

! same people who are trying to make the point in Harrisburg i

l or who made the point in Harrisburg three years ago when a l

15 i

16 I whole mob descended on that area with the intent to destroy 17 I

it.

18 I am saying right now that if we don't develop 19 l nuclear energy right now, by the year 2000 there will be 20 such pestilence and such death out here that we will see 21 what has occurred in Nazi Germany when the same environmental 22 policies were taken by Hitler in a militarized f anhion, but O

23 nonetheless the same environmental capacities.

Any Black 24 or any Jew who knows what oppression is who condones this

()

25

policy, will be parlayed to Facism once again in the 26 20th century.

1 512 2

Dick Ottinger and his cohorts represent that.

I j

3 I am asking you here to right now on this floor to oppose the

[}

National Population Policy Act, to oppose the antinuclear 4

5 sentiment in this country, and let's get on with making the 6

next 100 years of progress in the country that the founding 7

fathers have intended.

That is why you are living in the 8

c ou n t ry.

If you do not want to live in this country, go to 9

New Foundland.

Go to fucking Madagascar.

Go anywhere.

10 But leave America to the Ame ricans who want progress, 11 because that is what America is all about.

12 j

JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you, sir.

l 13 i

Alex Gromack, 630 Collier Avenue, New City, New 14 Yo rk.

15 MR. GROMACK:

I would like to apologize fo r l

l 16

! being late.

It is a little rough out there.

Good thing we 17 didn't have an accident today.

18 I would like to ask how safe is Indian Point l

19 nuclear powe rplant?

Many residents and organizations of I

i 20 Rockland County as well as adjoining counties have been 21 asking that question for a number of years, with 22 unsatisf acto ry answers.

An emergency evacuation plan for O

23 Rockland County has been drawn up at considerable expense 24 which seems to be unanimously perceived by individuals, 25 organizations, and of ficials as being totally inadequate

.__m 26 and impossible to carry out in time to save us in the event

i 1

513 2

of a nuclear accident across the river.

Our concerns at 3

Indian Point have of ten fallen on deaf ears.

To say there 4

is no danger is a lie.

If there wa sn' t any danger at 5

Indian Poin t, neithe r you nor I would be here today.

6 There is a real danger of a nuclear accident.

7 Because units 2 and 3 have not been permanently shut down, 8

we must be ready at a moment's notice day or night, rain or 9

shine, hurricane winds, calm summer breezes or even 10 snowstorms like today to be prepared to evacuate our homes 11 and family.

The unrealistic components of an evacuation 12 plan would make a safe and successful evacuation of some 13 100,000 people a near impossibility.

After the sirens go O

14 off telling 100,000 people to run for their lives, one can 15 only imagine the chaos and conf usion that will follow.

16 I live on Collier Avenue.

On a good normal day 17 it is hard to get out of the driveway.

To get through 500 18 f eet of Main Street New City traf fic can take up to 30 19 i minutes.

Today it could take even longer.

With the number l

20 of cars making an attempted getaway and praying that all 21 the support personnel show up to help us rather than stay i

22 at home to help their own f amilies, there is still a 23 thousand and one things that can go wrong, such as flat 24 tires, f ender benders, major accidents, running out of gas.

25 All would contribute to making a successful escape i

26 impossible.

1 514 2

But for the f ew in my neighborhood who managed

(

3 to get a jump on some of the others, they would be directed, 4

by whom no one is still quite sure, to go to a designated 5

reception area.

For me, the Nanuet High School reception 6

area is where I am to go.

That is where they will tell me 7

everything is okay because I left Collier Avenue and went 8

five miles down the road.

Who is kidding whom?

People at 9

Three-Mile Island were evacuated 85 miles.

We a e not 10 prepared for the 5 miles, much less 85.

11 Our government of ficials have no idea where to

)

12 l evacuate, where to get people transported by bus and then

dispatch bus drivers back into the danger zone for 13

()

14 additional pickups.

Communication equipment is almost i

15 nonexistent.

There will be no one to answer thousands of 16 calls coming into the switchboard.

Cla rk stown town hall, 17 this building here, has one operator 9 to 5 Monday through l

I 18 Friday.

When I called here this morning there was no one 19 to answer the phone to tell us this meeting was on.

20 Few people knew of this meeting.

It it was held 21 later in the year, say September, I am sure you would have 22 to get Yankee Stadium to accommodate all of the people that

()

23 might want to attend.

An evacuation plan filled with 24 thousands of procedures will never be read by a hundred 25 thousand people.

There are also very few copies around in 26 this county.

The problems we have cannot be solved by the

1 515 2

I reams of paper in an inadequate county evacuation plan.

So

! '( I i

3 we must seriously consider eliminating the problem, which 4

I 4

it to close the unsaf e units at Indian Point.

!C) 5 I would like to say I am glad you are here today 4

4 6

to listen to our complaints and concern, bu t I can't, 4

7 because your presence here confirms the seriousness of the

)

)

8 problem we all f ace.

Nuclear accidents f ace no t ime table.

l l

9 In our case a timetable for solving our safety problems is i

]

10 past due.

Close Indian Point because the axiom better late i

l 11 than neve r was never more true.

Thank you.

1 4

12 JUDGE C ARTER:

Thank you.

i 13 The next speakers will be as follows:

Ray

(

14 Powlick, Elizabeth Kallen, A.

E.

Burgess.

Ray Powlick is 4

15 next, 197 North Main Street, New City.

16 MR. POWLICK:

Hi.

Lovely weather we are having, 17 isn't it.

I have a f ew specific questions I would just 18 like to raise about the plan, if that is okay.

19 I think it would be a nice idea if Con Edison 1

20 were required to show some kind of response f rom the

)

I i

21 volunteer bus drivers, the tow truck operators in the I

22 county, the municipal workers and sanitation workers who

!O d

A/

23 are depended upon so critically in this little plan of 4

24 theirs.

I wonder if they have any kind of response f rom 25 these people.

Also another interesting point about the buc 26 plan of the evacuation here.

. -= _

1 516 0

2 It seems that along all the bus routes you just j

3 wait outside on the corner and the bus will be by to pick l

4

" " "9 '"* t* ""Y "'ad

dt"'t"'"'"*"-

t0 5

worry, just dress warmly, it won't penetrate down your 6

clothing.

But the buses go and drop you of f at the edge of r

7 their 10-mile radius.

It seems a little absurd to me that i.

8 the buses won't even take you out of the prime area zone.

i 9

i I also question Con Ed 's ability to really I

10 respond quickly and correctly to any kind of emergency they 11 I have.

In the past they were shown to be slightly 12 unreliable.

That is all I would like to say.

13 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you, Mr. Powlick.

14 Elizabeth Kallen, 47 Johnson's Lane, New City.

l 15 MS. KALLEN:

I came here really just to listen 16 and learn, and I had no intention of speaking.

But hearing i

i 17 some of the pro nuclear people speak, and so far they have l

18 all been f rom out of town, I couldn't help but get up here i

19 l and just mention some of the things that crossed my mind.

l l

y l

20 l It s eems that the tactics that they are using, like racism i

21 i

and environmentalists on drugs, I mean I am hardly someone 22 who is on drugs, are clearly a case of people who know that iO l

they are wrong and that there are true dangers here and 23 4

24 l

they are just groping at any point to help them make a

, O 4

j 25 positive case.

I am so appalled at -- I am Jewish, and I

~

l 26 am not for a nuclear powerplant.

I can't think of -- he is l

1 517 2

not even here -- of someone who thinks that racism will be 3

worsened if there is no nuclear power.

It is the most

[)

ridiculous argument I have ever heard.

They sound like 4

5 plants to me.

I just wanted to get up here and say that if 6

anyone has any conscience or decency for human lif e, they 7

wouldn't want nuclear power.

It is just a money-making 8

thing fo r them, and they have no rega rd fo r h uma n li f e.

9 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you.

A.

E.

Burgess of 10 Stony Point, Route 2.

11 l MR. BU RG E SS :

My name is Arthur Burgess.

I live 12 l

in Stony Point.

I wo rk for Harper & Row as a l

pub li she r-s alesma n.

I am, additionally, the head of a 13 14 small sales union.

l l

The task of rapidly evacuating one of the densest 15 i

16 i populations in the country over a dif ficult terrain, narrow l

17 roads, through weather of which this is a terrific example, j

18 plus the additional responsibility in summer of finding and 19 j moving a large population of campers, swimmers, p i cnick e r s, 20 group campers particularly without transportation, most of 21 them children, from two immense public parks, this task 22 seems to me gigantic.

Surely it has to involve the

(!

23 construction of tempo rary shelters, eme rgency medical 24 stations, the acquisition of support vehicles specifically 25 provided for the purpose, the c reation of support 26 organizations specifically trained for the job, elaborate l

1 518

{])

2 communication netwo rk s, hierarchies of command, and so 3

forth.

(]}

4 The communities are simply not set up to handle 1

5 this situation by themselves.

They haven't enough trained 6

staff, they haven' t enough ma teriel, they haven't enough i

7 financing.

4 8

Any local police department will tell you this.

9 Any plan which does not address these shortcomings by 10 including financing to provide for them not only will not 11 work but will be regarded as a pretense or sham.

It won't 12 be taken seriously.

It won't be taken seriously by the 13 people it is designed to protect.

But, worse, it won't be l

taken seriously by the very personnel who are supposed to 14 I

15 administer it.

It has been pointed out that the plants 16 could not be located where they are under present 17 regulations.

This indicates to me that the dangers 18 involved in nuclear powerplants we re insuf ficiently understood 19 j

and appreciated by the agency granting the permission at 20 the time.

j 21 It seems to me unf air, therefore, to expect i

22 i

either local taxpayers, utility customers, or utility O

23 shareholders to bear the major cost of this mistake.

The 24 utility may have effectively pleaded its case at the time.

25 Nevertheless, the mistake was the g ranting agency's, whose 26 i

responsibility it was to protect the public safety.

I i

1 519

~l 2

I really believe that the proper solution of O

3 this problem is, first, to close these plants down and, 4

second, to establish additional power capacity elsewhere.

)

5 I believe that the major share in the cost of both these 6

operations should be the Federal Government's.

Short of 7

this solution, there is only the implementation of a truly 8

serious evacuation plan, that is, trained personnel, 9

vehicles, shelters, and so forth.

Again, I believe that 10 all of these costs should be born f ederally.

Wi thou t this 11 expenditure, any plan is simply a token gesture towards 12 l safety.

Inspite of Three-Mile Island there is a unive rsal I

13 tendency to say it won' t happen to me.

A token plan only I

14

caters to this tendency by indicating that the sponsors of 15 l the plan don't take the dangers seriously either.

16 In this regard, I am also concerned with 17 communications which go to my neighbors within the ten-mile 18 area.

I understand that the utilities have prepared a I

19

! pamphlet of instructions f rom the plan which is to be 20 mailed to the public in the ten-mile area in February.

I 21 would like to ask the Board if they would request that the 22 utilities make a proof copy of this pamphlet available for O

23 comment if it is distributed.

My concern is not just with 24 the character of the instructions, bu t also I'm a f raid that (I

__j 25 the piece may contain so many disclaimers as regards the 26 danger involved that it will be self-def eating as a saf ety l

-_- =

1 520 2

precaution.

Thank you.

' {)

3 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you, Mr. Burgess.

4 Next is F. Burgess, Wayne Avenue, Stony Point.

{)

5 MS. BURGESS:

Thank you.

I am here to read a 6

statement f rom somebody who was to come last week, and he 7

l couldn' t make i t, and he wrote a letter instead, which is 8

ve ry b rief.

9 This is f rom Roger Phenix, Gay Hill Road, Route 10 1, Box 40, Stony Point, New York.

11 "To the Commissioners of the NRC, Rockland 12 County hearings, 10 Maple Avenue, New City.

13 l "To the Commi ssioners.

I am a journalist and

()

l film maker, have lived in Rockland County for 17 years and 14 15 worked in the New York motion picture and television 16 industry.

I would like to be able to speak at these 17 hearings in person bu t the changed date coincided with a 18 business trip which I could not postpone.

19 i

'I believe that nuclear power is turning out to I

20 be much more dangerous and expensive in practice than had 21 o riginally been though t.

Although progress is being made in plans for disposal of commercial reactor waste, the 22 e

()

23 expense and saf ety of the proposed plans will not be i

24 eva luated fo r years.

The wastes created by this technology

()

l are dangerous to all forms of life for thousands of years --

25 26 whether they be embedded in glass deep witnin the earth or

}

l

I 1

521 2

loose within the environment af ter accidental release.

3 "Soon a decision must be made to begin closing 1

4 nuclear reactors before the problems we now see begin to 5

snowball, the coats go out of proportion to the benefit, I

6 and the dangers increase, as they surely must.

l 7

"Some plants will have to be closed before 8

others.

The Indian Point plant is one of those least l

9 j defendable.

It is located in a highly populated place and l

10 was bu ilt to a design predating our experience of systems 11 failure.

Once the costs of disposal are added to the costs 12 of routine operation, it will be economically unfeasible to 13 continue operation.

14 "If realistic and important new technology is to 15 i be developed, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission must assure i

16 that the f ailed experiments along the way will be put to 17 rest decisively so that practical and saf e solutions can be 18 developed.

The current state of the art of nuclear power 19 technology does not offer promise for such solutions.

I 20 petition you to please close the Indian Point and similar 21 plants so that we may join with the technical community in i

22 a common goal of a better life for the people of the world.

O i

23 Sincerely, Roger Phenix."

l l

24 JUDGE CARTER:

Thank you Ms. Burgess.

O I

25 Anyone else who would like to be heard at this 26 t ime ?

If not, we will take another short recess until 11

i l

1 522

(])

2 o' clock to see if there are any further members of the 3

public who wish to be heard.

(])

4 (Recess taken.)

5 JUDGE CARTER:

Ladies and gentlemen, it appears i

6 that there are presently no additional persons who wish to i

l 7

be heard.

If there are any, would they please raise their i

8 hand.

1 9

It is now 10 ninutes af ter 11.

Do I hear a l

10 motion to adjourn?

I think we will wait another 15 minutes.

1 11 If no one appears, then we will adjourn.

12 Mr. Levin, you had mentioned yesterday there 13 l were a couple of ma tters you would like to bring to our attention?

14 i

15 MR. L EVIN :

No, sir.

We covered that in the 16 procedural question with respect to the filing of documents, i

17 I

JUDGE CARTER:

Mrs. Moore, do you have anything 18 l

you would like to contribute to the good of the order?

I 19 MS. MOORE:

No, sir, not today.

l 20 MR. H AU PTMAN :

I am wondering what was brought 1

I 21 up before about the possibility of the legal hearings any l

evidence being introduced regarding the tow truck operators, 22 i

()

23 the volunteer bus drivers, and the municipal employees who 24 this whole thing is being relied upon them volunteering, 25 whether there will be any evidence presented at that time 26 in terms of whether any of these people are going to

4 4

l 1

523 2

volunteer or whether there will be any kind of a a

3 questionnaire sent out or anything to find out whether they 4

have any volunteers at all.

[}

1 5

JUDGE CARTER:

At this time it is dif ficult to 6

tell exactly how all the evidence will be put together.

7 Obviously, the attorneys for the licensees are here, they

]

8 have heard what has been said.

They are intelligent people.

9 They will probably undertake to try to resolve any doubts 10 or questions on that ma tter.

If they don't do it, the 11 staf f hopef ully, representing the public, will carry l

12 fo rwa rd wi th that.

If none of those parties do it and if

)

i l

13 none of the persons who are permitted to intervene as 14 parties do it and the Board, those of us sitting up here, 15 feel that that is a concern, you can be sure that we will i

16 i call witnesses ourselves.

17 l

But in the first instance we will await the

! action of the parties to see how they put their case in.

18 19 We won't try the case for them unless we see there are 20 ma tters that are not covered.

Then we will either ask them 21 to do it or we will do it ourselves.

22 MR. H AU PTM AN :

Your Honor, in view of the time i ()

23 frame of these meetings and the fact of the inclement i

24 weather, I am sure there are many people who live in this (h_

25 area who simply could not get here to make a statement of l

i 26 what they f eel.

Are there any proposed plans or any l

i

4 1

524

()

possibilities of having at least an additional meeting in 2

3 this area to accommodate these citizens?

{])

4 JUDGE CARTER:

Yes, there are plans which have 5

not been fully formulated yet.

We understand the 6

dif ficulties that the public experiences at times like this.

7 We do plan to have additional limited appearances hearings.

8 However, we expect in the first instance to proceed to the 9

more formal aspect and then try to squeeze in those other 10 limited appearance hearings around the nor formal 11 evidencia ry hearings.

Because that really takes higher 12 priority and I think we have received a good sampling of 13 opinion so far.

That is not to say that we won' t accept or

\\g J

14 hear mo re.

But we have a good idea of what is on the minds 15 of the people in the area and we can proceed from that, and 16 we will give every opportunity consistent with other 17 demands and requirements of our time to do that.

18 l

We will also try to go to new places so that 19 people in other areas will have an opportunity.

We were 20 j thinking of the west coast of Florida as a very good place 21 in view of the weather.

22 Did I see someone come in and sign up who would O

l 23 like to be heard?

No.

l s

24 MS. B R ADY:

May I say something about the Indian

()

25 Point plant?

26 JUDGE CARTER:

Yes.

Please state your name and l

i 1

525 i

i 2

address.

O i

j 3

MS. B R ADY:

My name is Marga ret Brady.

I live 4

at 100 Main Street in Nyack.

5 I am late due to the weather.

I am somewhat I

6 surprised that you are having the hearing today.

I was at l

7 work yesterday during the hearing times.

If I may suggest 8

that in the future that the hearing times be more 9

convenient so the average public citizen can participate.

1 10 I have had the opportunity to see both volume 1 11 and 2 of the plan.

I am somewhat annoyed that it is 12 impossible practically to see volume 2 of the plan.

Very 13 f ew people have had the opportunity to see it.

I hope that

()

14 i

it is more widely available and in the libraries for the 15 public to see it before the next hearings come about.

It 16 I

seems to ue totally unworkable.

I am also very much 17 annoyed that the public and the ratepayers have to pay for 18 this plan and for the sirens that are in effect.

J 19 It doesn't seem to be very workable when you l

20 look at the weather today.

It just has taken me a 21 tremendous amount of type to get f rom Nyack to New City.

22 They expect to evacuate everyone within 10 miles of the

()

4 i

23 plant within 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> in bad weather.

Tha t seems somewhat j

4 l

24 crazy.

I would like to say that I think that we ought to (f4 95 address where the money is coming f rom to pay for this 4

26 plant and should the people have to pay for that.

4 i

I 1

526 i

2 I would say that in light of the safety

()

3 deficiencies that we shouldn't have to even consider a plan 4

like this.

I think there should be some more serious

()

l 5

investigation of the saf ety of Indian Point, and if it is 6

not safe, which I don't believe it i s, then it should be 7

shut down.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE CARTER:

We propose to do that.

10 MS. BRADY:

Yes, I do.

I also I think 10 miles l

11 is a crazy limit.

Ten miles may be a limit according to

.+

1

~

12 some scientists, but eve ry scientist I have spoken to, both 4

r 13 pronuclear power and against the plan, have said that it O

14 depends ve ry strongly on the weather.

If the wind is 15 blowing one way, the people who live within 15 miles may be 16 severely affected.

And there is nothing in the plan that 17 has anything to do with which way the wind sill be blowing, 18 if the weather is poor, or notification of the pecple.

j 19 Is it true that the panel of judges who will 1

20 decide are NRC judges also?

21 JUDGE CARTER:

We are the persons who in the 1

22 first instance will make a decision on the case.

We are 23 employed as members of the Atomic Saf ety and Licensing 24

! Board of the U.S. NRC.

(

25 MS. B R AD Y:

So that the preliminary decision.

l 26 j Where would further decisions come f rom?

That is just one I

1 527 2

last question.

3 JUDGE PARIS:

In this particular investigative 4

proceeding the Commission has directed that we will conduct

)

5 the evidentiary hearing, draw conclusions f rom that and r

6 make recommendations to the Commission.

The Commission itself however has reserved unto itself the right to make 7

8 whatever decision they make.

They will take the 9

information we give them plus they have said they will f eel 10 f ree to use any other information.

11 MS. B R ADY:

You don't f eel this is a conflict of 12 interest?

13 JUDGE PARIS:

As f ar as our making our 14 recommendations?

15 MS. BRADY:

Yes.

16 JUDGE PARIS:

No.

I 17 MS. B R ADY:

It seems to me that it would be.

18 JUDGE PARIS :

I personally feel that I am paid a 19 salary to be neutral and take an objective position.

20 l

MS. BRADY:

I hope you will be neutral.

Thank 21 you.

22 JUCGE CARTER:

Are there any other speakers who l

23 wish to be heard?

l I'

24 MR. KALLEN:

May 1 just ask a question without 25 j going to the podium?

26 JUDGE CARTER:

Yes, Mrs. Kallen.

1 528 2

MS. KALLEN:

What would happen to your job if 3

all these powerplants were shut down?

Wouldn't you lose 4

your jobs?

That would be the conflict of interest.

5 JUDGE CARTER:

Considering our age and the time 6

that that proceeding would take, I am quite sure we would 7

all make it to retirement.

I don't think that that is an 8

issue.

I am a new member of the panel.

I do not derive my 9

f ull income f rom i t.

I am assigned merely to this case.

I 10 want to assure you that in my contact with the Atomic 11 Safety and Licensing Board I have been tremendously impressed l

12 by the objectivity, the fairness, and independence of 13 judgment of the members of the Board.

~~

14 I approached the Board in the first instance 15 I

with some feelings of trepidation and concern and wonder 16 whether it was the kind of body that I though t it would be l

17

! that I would want to work with.

I assure you, and this is 18 self-serving and my personal impression, but the members in i

19 j my view could not be more objective and more fair and more l

20 concerned about doing a good job.

I have been involved in I,

21 and out of government for I guess 25 years f rom all 22 dif f erent aspects.

I have been ve ry much impressed.

I O

23 couldn't ask for anything more.

24 MS. KALLEN:

Is your job outside, since there is O

__j 25 part-time, is it an energy-related job?

26 JUDGE CARTER:

I am a lawye r:

I 1

529 l

2 MS. KALLEN:

I like lawyers.

3 JUDGE CARTER:

You have excellent judgment.

I

")

think we can judge a civilization by their attitude toward 4

l 5

i lawyers.

6 Mr. Hamilton, any f urther custome rs?

7 JUDGE SHON :

I just would observe that 8

Shakespeare recommended something that we could do with all 9

the lawyers.

10 JUDGE CARTER:

Dr. Paris?

11 JUDGE PARIS:

The Board has heard limited i

12 l appearance sessions and statements in many cases.

The 13

! thing types of statements that are most usef ul to us are

()

those which reveal to us particular local situations that 14 15 are of importance and significance.

I would just like to 16 l c omme n t that the Board appreciates the though tful and I

17 useful limited appearance statements that have been presented 18 before us in the past three days by the local citizens.

19 Thank you.

20 (Continued on following page.)

21 l

22 0

23 f

24 4

(:)

25 l

26

(

I 1

530

]

2 JUDGE CARTER:

Is there anything further to come 3

before us?

If not, in view of the worsening weather

,_ O 4

coaat e tone, 1 cen see f rom wnere 1 em sitting that le 1.

5 still snowing heavily, we will adjourn this meeting and 1

l 6

reconvene at a time to be decided by the Board.

1 7

Thank you very much.

i 8

(Time noted:

11:23 a.m. )

i 9

b 10 1

11 I

12 4

'3 l

O. -

I j

14 l

j 15 16 4

s' 17 I

I 18 I

i I

19 20 l

l l

21 22

!O i

23 25 26

i l

1 531 2

This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the 3

Atomic __Saf_etiy_ and Licensinq_ Board _ __

l I

i 4

in the laa t t e r of: Consolidated Edison Corapany of New York 5

and the Power Authority of the State of New York 6

Da te o f Proceeding: S a t u r d_a y,, _J a n u a_ r y 2 3, 1982 l

7 Docket Number: 50-247SP;S0-286 SP 8

Place of Proceeding: To w n _qa ll_,, _N ew C_ i_t y, New York 9

were held as herein appears, a nd that th is is the original I

10 t r a visc r ipt thereof for the file of the commission.

11 i

12 THOMAS W._ MU_R R AY_,,_C.S.R.

l O

13 Official Reporter (Typed) 14

' g,/ j: w ! c l];q g n i

/

i is 16 o f fic ia l Reporter (b nature)

L7 i

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i 20 21 l

22 I

23 O

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-. -. - - - _ - -.. _.. - - -. - - - - - _ _ _ _ _ -.. - _. _ _.. _