ML20033C384
| ML20033C384 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/18/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8112030072 | |
| Download: ML20033C384 (93) | |
Text
-
- go retoqjo, UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION o
f E
WASHIN GTON, D.C. 20555 Y N.
6 o
% e,,, s,o!
M November 18, 1981 s
+-
Q OFFICE OF THE N0p2 3
SECRETARY 8
~
70 8 q,, ~
l(*r./A -;S 2';
c, r.
COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISC SUJ@tE.l ' d,, $s N
UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE ACT OF:
Transcript of Budget Presentation (Inspection and Enforcement), a.m. Session July 21, 1980 Pursuant to 10 CFR 9.108(c), the Commission, upon the advice of the General Counsel has detgrmined that the subject transcript should be released to the public in its entirety.
u 1 J.
1 O
ice of th ecretary i
i i
l l
8112030072 811118 PDR 10CFR l
PT9.7 PDR
c
=
.s l
NUCLEAR REGULATORY CObed.ISSI' N C
s W /,
/,
Col @1ISSION MEETING k
7: the Mattar of-CLOSED MEETING EUDGET PRESENTATIOi"S
- 3. AI.
(Inspection & Enforcement) l o
,I 3
u m:.
July 21, 1980 pag s :
1-91 g :-
Washington, D.
C.
1 l
l 1
ALDERS 0X REPORTLTG f
ls, 400 Vi.-y d a Ave., S. W. ~4=sH# gn==,
D.
C.
20024 l
.I l
Talachcne: (2C1; 354-2345 i
.,--....--_.......t
,a
_7
,h,-
t ft.s o
g I
. y.,. J, V.-
'3
?
O.
l --
.o s
t
,I;%
c.,
A s
g 4
\\
.., y
-,4 N
s
,h
+
._ 0F AMERICA f,NITED STATEE),
s 1
3
..N i \\
p-q(.
+
3-Nt'QE E1 R' RIGU LA'I briY CO El:IFSIO N 2
,hj
(
i s
3
- a.-
g -
. C; 3
,4 4'*
j +. {'N
, CLOSED EEETING s
-(
6
,t s
5 t
BUDGIT FRESENTATIONS t
6 (Inspection C Enforcement)
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 7
Commissioners' Conference Room 8
1717 H Street, E.V.
Washincton, D.C.
9 Konday, July 21, 1990 10 The Commission cet, pursuant to notice, at 9:30 a.m.
11 BEFORE:
12 JOHN F.
AHEARNE, Chaircan of the Commission 13 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner
(
14 JCSEPH HENDRIE, Commissioner 15 FETER A.
BRADFORD, Commissioner 16 NRC STAFF PRESENT4 17 R.
DE YOUNG i
18 1.
DONNELLY 19 Y.
STELLO 3,
20
'A DIROKS t-21 K..
CONNELL 22 D. RATHBUNN 23 L.
ONG 24 JAKE MURRAY r
25,
D. ROSS 4
s l
r' q
'u.
\\
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
4 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
3 2
1 AL EUEDA 2
LIN LAEEY 3
JAyES O'EEILLY 4
FAFEY TF0FSEUEG
~'
5 ME. MOSLEY 6
DUDLEY TFOMPSON 7
J.
EIAHA 8
ME. TINEE 9
ME. SNIEZEK 10 11 12 13
(
14 15 16 17 18 a
19 20 21 22 23 24
(
25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
b s
.o 1
IE9sILn: EEE 2
CHAIEyAN AHEAENE:
We will come t o order.
3 We have a very long and hard week cf budge 4 reviews.
We will try to get started at this time.
Thir 5 morning we hear fron IEE.
.As we march through the week, 1
6 let's see, is there sometody here from the Secretary's 7 Office?
i
~8 Roger, don't leave.
You've got-to show up here.
9 Wno is representing the Controller?
Len?
-I need 10 both the secy and the controller to make sure they keep 11 track of any questions we ask or tentative decisions we make 12 during these budget presentations.
In some cases we will 13 ask for information to-be sent back.
And I want to make
(
14 sure both secy and the controller are tracking those.
15 R.
SARRY:
We had a meeting this morning and 16 agreed to stay after each session each night to do that.
17 CHl. IR E A N AHEARNE:
Fine.
18 All right, Vi c, I notice you are a ttempting to 19 take ovfr the agency -- at least, the manpower side.
The 20 nuclear inspection and enforcement agencies' later growth
.'.s 21 what we are following.
I think we probably have to attempt 22 to reduce the numbers, although I realize that will bring 23 tragedy and disaster across the landscape, but I think it'll 24 probably be necessary.
k' 25 The first hour, hour and a half or so, or two e
ALDERSON F.EPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 V!3GINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
)
4 1
hours E.re yours.
Ckay.
Vi th thoce opening remarke,_!
- 3. don't know.whether I'm starting off on my left foot or my 4 richt foot, but maybe I ought to jurt kind of junn forward 5 and indicate at the outset that I hope that not only would 6 you agree with the request but perhaps, consistent with our 7 needs, you may even vant to further and add additional
- 8. resources in some a reas.
I hope to at least in ene inctance 9 point out where upon further reflection you might want to, 10 at least, want to think abou t it.
11 I don't view this as an ICE budget.
I view it as 12 an NRC budget.
I view it as your budget.
I am here to give 13 you.the information and for you to.make the decision.
C. '
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Of course, the purpose of this 15 week 's process is to do just thats to transfer the budget 16 from EDO to where it becomes a Commission budget.
17 5R. STELLO:
Yes.
I think I'-might say at the-18 outset that the view of the review group'thet went throuch 19 our budget had the same thoughts in mind, and I did toe, 20 about the need to cut and keep the budget to its minimum.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARKE:
I noticed you cut substantially 22 from your own staff request.
23 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
And I'think we have managed to 24 persuade ED3 in the RECLAMA that there really is a need.
(
25 And I hope I somehow may be able to articulate ad equa tely ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
b s
.o 1
what our needs are, so that you, too, will be convinced.
I
,2 am convinced.
And I hope you become convinced.
3 I have seen Inspection E Enforcemant in the list 4 year in terms of both its strengths and its weaknesres and 5 what it can do.
And es we go through it today, I hope we 6 will be able to persuade you the same thing.
7 Could I have the next slide?
8 Okay, I want to make a couple of points at the 9 outset to try to avoid c debate.
We have at empted, as 10 religiously as one can possibly do it, to keep in mind in 11 the entire budget pr ocess the PPG g uidance that was set.
12 forth.
Some of the things that are in there clearly speak 13 to doing more in some areas, not only more in terms of more 14 inspections, which cause one to conclude that means more 15 people to be able to do things more effectively and 16 ef fi cien tly as well, and we are trying to do that, but 17 clearly, more enforcement is needed.
That is goine to 18 require additional expenditure of resources, because 19 enforcement activities are inten,sive in terms of using 20 people to bring about.
The recent enforcement packages that 21 we have come forward with the Commission, and those you will 22 recall the large amount of time even the Commissioner has 23 had to spend in trying to come to the conclusion as to what 24 is the proper enforcement action.
It does take a great deal
('
25 of time when an elevated enf orcement action is needed.
So ALDERSON REPORT'NG COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
6 1
we have Icoked very hard at this area.
2 Clearly, the concept of increased presence of the 3
NFC in and around all of the activities the NEC is 4 responsible 'f or is again an area that si13 require just nore 5
resources to do that.
6 To do more independent measurements ic, I think, a 7 mixture of using the resources we have to be able to 8
accomplish more independent-measurements as well as to add 9
the capability, th rough both equipmen t and people expert'in 10 this area, to accomplish it.
11 If there is one area -- and this is the area I 12 vant to come back to later -- that I think is quite 13 critical, it is in the whole area of OA and CC.
The-arer of
(
144 construction problems we have seen continue to point tack to 15 where there is an ina" equate CA system for one reason or 16 another in-plant.
.t
- 'h a t I think I have seen in this area is adequate 17 n
18 attention on our part in terms of the amount of rerources 19 applied early in the construction phase so that these 20 problems are identified as early as possible.
I will be 21 getting into that _ sa in more detail later on in the 22 briefing.
23 Increased training, both of our Staff and of the i
24 licenses, moderating the training to be assured that it is
(
25 being done effectively to do the job it is intended t o d o --
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
7 1
well, I want to come back to this.
Again it is a EECL;.FA 2 item.
.I feel very strongly about the need for us to really r
f 3 enhance our own training capability.
And I will be speaking 4
to that in some'more detail.
5 Next, more empha sis on material control and 6 accounting.
I think fiFS Erwin has persuaded me rather 7 emphatically that this is an area where more emphasis both 8 is needed and, in my opinion, where more emphasis and 9 diligence in pursuing the ECCA area.can have a payoff.
10 I believe that our budget, to the extent it.is 11 possible to make th e judgment, Er. Chairman, is fully 12 consistent with your policy as I see it.
There is one area 13 for which an argument can be made.
I read your fiscal 14 guidance to say to try to stay within these constraints; but 15 where it is necessary to add more resources, to add them and 16 explain why they ought to be added.
17 CHAIF.5AN AHEARNEs That was the Commission's idea.
18 Y. R. STELLO:
Yes.
The one area I think is worth 19 pointing out'is the limitations in the fiscal guidance,
20 which was derived from some very early estimates that were 21 made on our own behalf, Y. r. Chairman", clearly fall very 22 short of the mark.
About half of the ICE resources are 23 devoted to the operating reactor issues.
And of those on 24 the order of 72 additional positions would be needed just to 25 take into account the increase in the operating reactor ALDERSON RE*ORTING COMPANY,\\lNC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASH!NGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
8 1
workload that would take place.
Ihat of and by itself, ar 2
we shift more of the. plants into construction and operation, I
3 there is going to be a shift in terms of th e - resources we 4 have to. apply.
5 i'e ha ve ta ken a very hard icok at the impacts that 6 are apparent from-the TMI Action Plan, which we believe 7 represents activities that are important and needed, as well 8 as the rules the Commission has either promulgated or plans 9 -to promulgate prior to 1982.
These represent a fairly large 10 number.
11 If I might go to the next slide?
12 And what I intend to do is to try to give a very 13 summary review.
I am prepared to go into whatever details i
14 in whatever area you want to as necessary to persuade you 15 what these resources are for.
16 The dollar figures, and let me at least try to l'7 highlight them very quickly, they represent, based on the 18 RECLAEA that we are asking f or, about _ a $12-million increase 19 over where we are now.
And if I could lump these very 20 quickly into some approximate numbers to give you a flavor 21 for where they come from --
22 CHAIEMAN AHEAENE:
When you have "FY 81 Current 23 Esti ma te, wha t is that current estimate based on?
24 MR. DONNELLY:
That is our 1981 President's budget.
25 CHAIFKAN AHEARNE:
That is not wha t the current ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
9 1
estimate is, though?
It really is?
You don 't
- believe, 2 then, the Mouce Appropriations Committee is coing te have r
3 any influence?
4 ME. DONNELLY:
I think they are going to be 5 persuaded that we need those 37 positions that we asked for.-
6 CEAIEMAN'AHEARNE:
So the FY current estimate is 7 really the FY S1 President's budget?
8 MF. STELLO:
Another'way to say it is the 9 hoped-for 1981 budget.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
Just for perspective, the House 11 Appropriations Committee 's is 909, isn't it?
12 ME. STELLO:
It is 5 percent less than this number.
13 CHAIBEAN AHEAENE:
Give a dollar number?
(
14 EP. STELLO:
Seventeen point nine.
15 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
Okay.
Go ahead.
16 E.
STELLO:
Let me give you some big numbers, so 17 you can see that there are a few numbers you can use to put 18 these numbers in context.
About 55 million of that is NDL.
19 COEHISSIONEE GILINSKY:
Which of these categories 20 is that?
21 KE. STELLO:
I will be getting to that later.
I 22 was just giving you a crude summary of where most of that l
23 $12 million is.
That will come up again later.
24 We are asking, as part of the EECLAKA, to put in
('
25 $2 million for a building in Chattanooga for the training ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20C24 (202) 554-2345 '
s 10 I
prograE.
2 Cur budget for travel would increase about'T2 3 million.
And our relocation expenses, which see:s-to te 4 necessary for our regions three and five officer, that'is, 5 at least, planned for at roughly $1/2 million.
The 6 environnental qualification is another half T1/2 million.
~
7 That makes up the bulk of the increases.
We will be going.
j 8 through that later in detail when we pick up again that.
9 All right, going to the next slide, the resource 10 increases, to give you the big number of where the deltas 11 are in here, 125 of the delta that is here is the result of 12 the Task Action Plan items and new rules.
The growth which 13 we talked about, growth in operating reactors and what have 14 you, represents about 23.
Some' work that had to be stopped 15 as the result of TMI, which we hope to be able to pick up, 16 and we will talk about what that is, is about eight 17 positions.
And there ir about 14 additional positions, 18 which is an increased level,of effort.
19 So those are the summary of where the new deltas 20 go into these bins.
21 We are going to EECLAEA with the Commission an 22 additional 21 or 22 positions.
It seems strange to have it l
23 at 21.6, but I guess that is the way the arithmetic carries 24 over.
I (
t 25 CHAIR AN AHEARNE.
Dick, when you talk about a
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
11 1
deltas in that context, you are talkine about the increerer 2
over the fiscal year 'E1 submission?
I 3
ME. STELLO:
Yes.
I'm just trying'te give you the 4 bigger numbers and where they are.
5 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
So some of those are already 6 incorporated in the EDos and the EDO has already accepted 7 some of those?
8 ME. STELLO:
Yes.
That is correct.
I am 9 indicating the difference between what the EDO had in his 10 presentation to you and what we are going to be talking 11 about today as an a dditional 22 positions.
And I f orgot to 12 mention the EECLAMA on the d olla rs is T2,600,000.
Those are 13 over and above what the EDO has already presented to you.
f'(
14 If_I may go to the next slide, this first element 15 - is a little difficult to talk about.-
Based on how much of 16 the inspection program we are doing right now, we are 17 cutting back on it.
'de are doing at the present time and 18 are projecting to hold in about that range of the ICE 19 inspection program.
Th a t i s, if you look at.the manual and i
20 it says you have to do certain numbers of inspections, 21 physical security inspections that the manual would call 22 for, completing the inspection modules on a frequency of 23 twice a year, we are holding that down to about once a 24 year.
That averages out to where we are trying to hold the t'
25 program, based on what is required in the manual, to about ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
12 1
25 to 40 percent reduction fron what is there.
2 I think we can justify doing this because we ere 3 starting to add residents and add other elements of the I
4 program which, by definition, in my view, alle' c us to pull 5 back in sone of those area s.
So we are trying very hard to 6 avoid the concept of having a program which you only 7 continue to add things to and you don't go back and make the 8 balance and take out some of the things you can justify 9 taking out based on some of the new elements that have been 10 added.
4 11 So our resident program, our increased 1
12 responsiveness to things tha t ha ppen, our reactor program, 13 in my view, clearly says we can start to back off in some of i
14 these areas.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is the status of our 16 resident program?
How many reactors will be covered?
17 R. STELLO:
All.
Eight-two.
Every si te that has 18 a reactor either in operation or under construction would l
19 have been co vered.
That is our proposal.
20 COMEISSIDFEB GILINSKY:
By the end of this budget?
21 ME. STELLO:
This year it is all operating.
This i
22 budget cycle would'be all.
23 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
By "this budget cycle" you mean 24 1982?
25 KE. STELLO:
Nineteen eighty-two.
1 i
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
13 1
C3E ISSIDl;EE GILISSK!:
And with one per on er two 2 persons?
i 3
R.
STELLC:
Well, it will be et least two.
4 CC MIESIONEF GILINSKY:
At le t. s t two, ycu say?
4 5
MR. ETELLO:
At operating sites.
Where you have a 6 construction, if you have a unit in operation you would have 7 them too.
And we would not add anything for plant under 8 construction.
We would look to add for other plants under 9 construction that don't have any residents, Commissioner, to 10 get those covered by sites.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
With one person?
I 1
12 MR. STELLO:
With at least one in construction.
13 In fact, it is only one; I should not say "a t least,"
14 because it would be only one.
15 In trying to support the TEI Action Flan we have 16 reprogrammed to put in the 31 positions to do that work in 17 fiscal year 1981.
And I don 't k now whether I should be sad 18 or glad at the conrept of the headquarters staffing 19 continuing, a s you can see in our projections, to decrease 20 as a' total percentage.
I continued to be concerned as to l
21 whether or not the headquarters staff is or is not
(
22 adequate.
It is one of the things that I continue to be i
23 puzzled over as to what their proper breakdown is.
24 CHAIREAN AEEARNE:
But that percentage drop does
(
25 not indicate a drop in absolute numbers, does it?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
14 1
ME. SiTLLC:
No, we are hc1 ding fairly even.
It 2
just means there is more activity out there.
]
3 CHAIE%AN AHEARNE:. It is true there ic.
l 4
XR. STELLC There ir by definition.
5 Next slide.
Let me very quickly cover what cur 6 major program objectives are.
The concept I mentioned 7 earlier means we are obviously looking for.an adequate 8 program that is dynamic,-that allows the change as new rules 9 and new policies are promulgated to make sure that we are 10 able to respond to that change and take into account the 4
11 need for the increased awareness of nuclear power genera ting 12 an awful lot of reactive workload.
When people indicate to-13 us that they see or hear of a problem, I think it is 14 extremely important that we be responsive and react to it-15 and that we go out and find out.
And I think, as the record 16 fairly shows, a great deal of what we do get through various 17 kinds of sources indicating problems turns out to be, in 18 fact, problems.
So we must be able to maintain a very high l
19 response rate to what I call this reactive developnent of
(
20 the inspection program, which is both inspection and 21 in v e stiga tio n.
I think it must stay high.
22 We will want to maintain our 100 percent coverage 23 of all operatinc sites with the residents that this budget 24 vill clearly allow.
25 i
i l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINtA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 i' -
,.r,._
15 e
I COMtISSIDFEE EEADF0ED:
How many reridents are 2 involved?
3
%F. STELLO:
136.
4 CDM E!SSIONEE GILI!: SKY :
And how nany re: actor i
5 inspectors are there all together?
6 E.
DONNELLY4 In Fiscal Year 19817 7
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
For this budget.
Is it 8 the number that corresponds to 138?
9 ME. DONNELLY:
I knew what was in the EDO, in our 10 request, was 600.
I can look. it up.
11 ME. STELL0s Why don't you look it an and we will 12 get that answer.
13 CHAIEKAN AHEAENEs But a rough number is 5507 14 ME. STELLO:
I thought it was about 540 or in that 15 neighborhood.
He will look it up.
16 CO KISSIONEE GILINSKY:
That includes the 130?
17 gg, s7tLLo,
- yes, 18 CDEHISSIONEE GILINSKY:
So it is lu0 plus another 19 400 somewhere else?
So residents is still a sna11 part of 20 the total.
21 HE. DONNELLY:
He just gave you the reactor 22 operations residents.
There are 32 construction residents 23 proposed for 1982 and one fuel facility.
24 COMEISSIONEP GILINSKY That is all part of that 25 540?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
f 16 1
MR. DDNNELLY:
Yes, cir.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So that is like 170 t
1 3 residents ?
4 R.
DONNELLY:
Yec.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEAFNE:
379.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY About one-third cf the 7 total?
8 CHAIREAN AREARNE:
Now by " inspectors" there you 9 are also including materials, licenses inspectors, reactor 10 inspectors?
11 C0 MISSIONIR GILINSKY:
Those are the reactor 12 inspectors but not the right number.
13 MR. STELLO:
We will look it up and we will give
(
\\
14 you that breakdown.
15 Clearly we intend to support fully the'TMI Task 16 Action Plan.
The budget is intended to do just that.
We 17 have gone through the Task Action Plan and made adjustments 18 of whatever additional resources are needed, and we have 19 included them.
20 The comprehen sive inspections that are now going 21 on in the R AD health area, we are looking at every facility, 22 a t every operating plant and have a team inspectine them.
i 23 N ow that will be finished at the beginning of next year.
24 And then we are going to go back and revise the whole 25 program and use what we have learned as to how to turn over ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W.. WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
4 17 I our own prograr in respOnce to what we have learned fret 2 those evaluations.
3 Ve want-te implement all the new cafety safeguards 4 inspection requirerents for the rules, both those approved 5 and expected.
6 COHEISSIONEE GILINSKY:
Let ce ask you about the 7 saf egua rds.
You got, at least at the EDO mark 119 8 saf eguards inspectors.
How many of those are for' reactors 9 and how many are for fuel cycles?
10 ME. STELLO:
About 30 reactors and for fuel 11 facilities would be about 32.
haterials and licenses would 12 be about two.
And we don't include inspection chiefs and 13 branch chiefs.
Those would have to be prorated 14 differently.
And then there is a miscellaneous requirement 15 that gets spread overall for shipments.
16 COMEISSIONEE GILINSKY:
Because l'would have i
17 thought that with the reduction in the number of fuel cycle 18 facilities that number would be, I don't know whether it is 19 increasing in your budget or not, but I think there are 20 significantly less of these facilities than there have been i
21 in the past.
They are simply closing out.
22 EP. STELLO:
Our caseload projection indicates 23 that we will have a total of 19 facilities:
la for the high 24 enriched end 5 for low enriched fuel f abrica tion s.
,.(
25 CO ISSIONEE GILINSKY:
Maybe I was thinking of l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
18 1
I the facilities in formula quantities.
At least that number 2 has done down.
3 MR. STELLO:
Ihe number I have is 14 4
CDy*ISSIOhEE~GILISSKl.
I thcught there wa s half a 5 dozen.
Is that wrong?
6 ME. DIRCKS:
You know, on this one there had been 7 some discussion of different estimate's.
The Caseload Panel 8 had one.
IC E has another.
N SS has a ' third because it
=
4 9 took a look at where they think the new rule should apply, 10 the facility population.
So there is this discrepancy that 11 -we are a ware of.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, of the ones that are 13 covered right now, how many is that?
(
w 14 ME. DIRCKS.
IC E and new caseloads is 19.
NMSS 15 is --
16 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
Right now in this fiscal year?
I'7 ME. DIRCKS:
This is 1982.
18 CHAIR!AN AHEABNE:
So there is a discrepancy in 19 the factor of 2 between what N SS believes the rule should 20 apply and what I C E believes the rule should apply to?
21 gg. DIEcgs:
yes.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
On the reactor side I 23 would have thought that there would also be, at least not an 24 increase and maybe not a decrease in that.
We went through L
25 a tremendous program of upgrading security at the reactor ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 es
19 1 sites.
We sent teams around.
I don't know whether that 2 process is still continuing or whether it has been 3 completed.
But I would ha ve thought that having cotten over 4 that big hump, there would then be a lesser amount of 5 continuing work.
Does that jive with your experience?
6 MR. STELLO:
We are prepared to take you throtch 7 if you wish.
8 COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY.
I am just trying to get 9 your reaction to that.
I haven't looked at it in detail.
I 10 am asking for your thoughts on that.
11 MR. STELLO:
The difficulty is you have a new rule 12 and first, let's pick one, guard training.
That rule 13 requires an extreme amount of detail as a regulation.
I 1-4 feel then you are asking me to assure that that rule is
~
15 complied with.
Now then it is a matter of judgment as to 16 how often and how much you have to look at in order to judge 17 that you have compliance.
Well, when you have a new rule 18 with all of those details in it,Jt reqcires quite a bit of 19 time and effort to go in and assure compliance.
We project i
20 to do that kind of looking like once a year to monitor that 21 that rule has been complied with and see if we have any 22 problems and where those problems are.
23 Now I would think that it would be improper, as I 24 understand my charter, for me to just simply say that for 25 that particular rule I wouldn't do anything.
i ALDERSON PEPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20 1
There is one particular rule in the safeguards 2 area where I would propose to literally essentially zero out 3 resources.
It is in the clearance area, because it will be 4 another government-sponsored progran conitorin; the 5 clea rances.
! feel the judgment of what is in that rule 6 with respect to going in and looking at computers and 7 security and that kind of thing we can back down on.
Eut 8 where ve have a rule as comprehensive as guard training, I 9 need, I guess, to rely upon the po31cy of the Commission.
10 How much of that can you really - hack down on?
11 COEKISSIONER GILI5 SKY Do th e residents get 4
12 involved in this at all?
In other words, does the guy who t
13 is there all the time, does he get involve-i in taking a look
?
14 at, let us say, guard training?
15 HR. STELL0s He looks, but not in any systenatic 16 wa y, to make the judgment that everything that is supposed i
17 to be done f or that rule has been done.
Obviously if he i
18 sees an item of noncompliance, a guard asleep or a door 19 op en, those kinds of things, he will.
20 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
But he is not responsible for 21 filling in any of the required checks?
22 MR. STELLO:
Right.
r i
23 CD KISSIONER GILINSKY My feeling is --
r 24 MR. STELLO:
Let me add, so I don't leave the i
I '
25 wrong impression, on RAD safety, when we cet to that, we are l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
~
21 i.
I allowing a significant part of the resident's time to look 2 into the radiological safc u areas and physically coing in
,a-3 and making those judgments in those areas for compliance.
4 CDntIESIDN EF GILIS SKY a Well, something like guard 5 training, wouldn 't that be pretty much checking boxes?
I 6 assume they don ' t ;ive the guard a test, or do they?
7 R.
STELLC:
Well, the rule allows us to do that, 8 to ask that he.be retested at our request.
9 COM ISSIONEE GILINSKY:
As the result of your 10 having questioned him or as the result of your having 11 checked to see how many hours of training he'has?
j 12 HE. STELL0s Just purely to audit to make sure 13 that in fact he can do the test he is supposed to do.
ik 14 COMEISSIONER GILINSKYa What I was going to 15 sugg est is if it is a matter of checking whether he has 16 pa ssed X hours of test and so on, it strikes me ac something f
17 that is something the safeguard guys could send a form to 18 th e residents and say, you know, check this.
19 MB. STELLO:
We certainly can get the residents to l
20 do more of that.
But I think that the expense of having 21 that resident out there to get him to be a paper tiger and 22 have him to do all of these paper programs will 23 significantly detract.
And you have to be able to keep in 24 balance what he is going to serve there best.
Having him i
25 pore over a bunch of records rather than using more of his ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
~
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
22 1 time to physically observe what is happening --
2
~ COM ISSIONES GILINSMY:
With the saf eguards. guys-3 actually go out to the reactor?
4 ME. SIELLO:
Yes, they physically c'c an d d o th e 5 inspections.
6' COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY:
Well, I don't know.
I 7 have a general comment on a -let of this.
I have a gut 8 feeling that.one man added to the enforcement line is worth 9 ten somewhere else.
It seems to me on some of these 10 programs, well, just sort of tough enforcement or tougher 11 reaction if you find noncompliance could, it seems to re, 12 compensate or substitute f or a lot of detailed auditing.
13 ME. STELLO:
Well, I was going to get to that a 14 little bit later.
I 15 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
Perhaps we can get back on 16 track.
17 COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY:
Sorry.
I was interested 18 in that one safeguard point.
i 19 ME. STELLO:
Well, we will get to that and cover 20 that in another question.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You want increased f ederal 22 presence?
s
^
23 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
The President through some of 24 the statements he has made 'and OMB in the letters they have
'k 25 written us have asked us to look into what techanisms are ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
23 1 available to try to find a way to increase the presence of 2 the NEC in the control root.
There were a number of thines 3 that-were looked at and lutped in, including around the 4 clock coverage for, for which the resource indications are 5 absolutely terrific.
6 We had indicated that there is, through the FDL 7 system, the capability to do additional monitoring.- And one 8 of the major dollar items in the budget is to in fact 9 provide for that ca pa bility, which would go far -- I 10 shouldn ' t say go far, but which will address this point.
11 How effective it is will depend on the system that is there 12 and what we can get out of it.
The conclusion as to hov 13 good or bad it is will have to wait until we have a systet.
14 With respect to our center, we are continuing to 15 upgrade.
I think those of you who have been out there or 16 will be out there in the next couple of weeks, if you will 17 drop by you will see we have a significant improvement in 18 the center itself in terms of the facilities and equiprent 19 thet is there.
20 CHAIE!AN AHEAENE:
I would urge you, Vic, to 21 concentrate on specifics.
The general words, the general 22 philosophies let's assume we basically understand.
I am 23 sure all of us will have a number of specific questions.
I 24 think you ought to focus on the specifics that you want to
(
25 either strongly support or EECLAEA.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
24 1
MR. STELL0s. Okay.
Can we move to Slide No. 9 2 then, and I will just skip the rest.
3 Ine answer to the executive number was 545.
4 COMEIFSIONEP GILINSNY:
'n'h a t
- d oe s t h a t include?
5 Is that just reactors?
6 MP. DONNELLY:
That is all inspectors.
~ 7 COMMISSIONE? GILINSKY:
Including the safeguards 8 and all of that other stuff?
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The 1981 number is based on 10 946.
Do you have any sort of breakdown as to what that 11 would be if it were 909?
12 ME. DONNELLY:
Yes.
It would not affect the 13 decision units.
It would still be 180 here.
Our EECLAMA to 14 the House Appropriations Committee, no matter how effective 15 or ineff ective it may be, would indicate that we would 16 remove the second resident at single unit operating sites.
i l'7 CEAIEMAN AHEAENE:
Fer the 377 18 ME. DONNELLY:
Yes.
There would be a number of 19 those residents and the support needed by those residents, 20 an d we could get 37 positions to do that.
So when we get to 21 th e reactor operations area, which will be Slide No. 10, we 22 will get to that.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Okay.
24 CO MISSIONEE GILINSKY:
You are not limite?. by 25 your ability to get people?
I t
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
25 1
ER. STELLO:
No.
At the present' tine we era over 1
2 the ceiling.
3 CHAIRMAN A HEAR NE s You are over ceiling in bodies 4 perhaps but do you really believe that' you have get fully 5 qualified peopic at every site?
6 CD MISSIONEE HENDRIE:
He can't very well adnit he i
7 has unqualified pcople out there on the station.
We may 8 have to retire to a smaller meeting room to discuss that.
9 CHA1EMAN AEEARNE:
It is a closed meeting.
My 10 impression is, f rom a t least some of the information that 11 seems to be coming up, that there are a number of people who 12 are not what you would classify as-fully qualified.
13 MR. STELLO:
We have set a standard for the senicr 14 resident program that they had to have as'a minimum two 15 years with the agency; and f or the senior residents' who are 16 out there, with perhaps four or five exceptions, which are 17 covering as part of augmenting f rom the regions, that is
- p 18 essentially true as of October 1st of this year.
19 CH A.IEt AN AH'EARNE :
But there are exceptions?
20 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
We are covering the exceptions 21 by a ugmen ting f rom th e regions.
4 22 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
But that is an even greater 23 manpower burden because you have to pull other people in.
24 MR. STELLO:
In terms of training it is a g r.-a t e r s
25 manpower burden, but th ese are the properly qualified people ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 T~99..
86 1 in terer of background, education, and experience.
I think 2 the function of bein; a resident requires an underctanding 3 of our business, which is the a rea where we have not 4 fulfilled our desire.
Eut in terne of attracting the ;ceple 5 with the proper education and background to do the jeb, we-6 have not.been having difficulty in that area.
7 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
You believe two years is an 8 adequate amount of time in the agency f or a percon to be a 9 resident?
10 MF. STELLO:
Yes, sir.
11 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
You wouldn't have liked more?
12 E.
STELLC:
Oh, yes.
I would like to have core.
13 I think two years is adequate.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Two years is the minimum we can 15 get away with?
16 COM ISSIONEE HENDEIL:
Well, you a re ne t exactly 17 starting with the lower half of some high school graduating J8 class.
You start with professional level people in the 19 field hopefully.
And two years to break them into the 20 agency 's way of doing business and the resident program may 21 not be ideal but it is adequate.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
What is the equivalent 23 requirement for the unit resident?
24 ME. STELLO:
Well, we are hiring people and 25 putting them in the unit resident program and subjecting to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,11...
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 ;2J2) 554-2345
27
.t-1 a full year's trainino.
But we are letting thet brve that 2 on site.
3 CHAIEMAN AREARNE:
The unit resident need not hava 4 any experience?
5 MR. STELLO:
Prior FRC experience.
6 CHAIEEAN AEEARNE:
Okay.
7 ME. STELLO:
Eaybe we will repeat a little bit.of i
8 that later.
9 Let n.e see.
Since we want to get into a little 10 more detail while we are here, maybe a couple of points let 11 me make.
The sites where we have been seeing sore 12 difficulties in construction, which are essentially still in 13 fairly early stages of construction, and five of them I have 14 data on are:
South Texas, Wolf Creek, Harble Hill, 51dland x
15 and Lucks.
If.you look at the amount of time we had planned 16 to put in the inspecting versus'the amount we actually did, l'7 ve are coming up with about a 300 percent increase where we 18 are finding these particular problems.
19 It obviously raises the question of, vc11, if we 20 had taken as hard a look at some of the other sites that are 21 under construction, would we also find problems there and 22 get them corrected early?
This is an area for which we 23 normally are allocating in earlier construction abcut 24 two-tenths of the professional man-year per unit.
In geing 25 through the budget and gettinc ready to come down and talk ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
28 1 to y ou, I continued to be troubled as to whether I had 2 looked as carefully and as hard at this area as possible and 3 whether or not we ought to be looking at the labor rates, 4 those two-tenth of a man year, and whether that is enough 5 to identify the kind of problems; and whether ve, consistent 6 with your policy, v.iether we ought to.have looked harder in 7 this QA.
8
~
Well, in hindsight now I kind of wished I had put-9 some-more resources in this area.
This is an area I would 10 suggest perhaps you may want to consider adding them.
I 11 think in terms of the early construction sites, based on l
12 what we see, especially for small utilities, that it is-j 13 important that we do a better job earlier.
And even with 14 the resources we have now planned, we are not gr.ing to be 15 able to devote very much in terms of a real good, hard look 16 a t the utility construction sites.
17 COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY:
When is a site covered?
18 ME. STELLO:
In 1982 we wiki have them all covered.
19 COMMISSIONEP GILINSKY:
When you say you are 20 covering all construction sites, does that mean from the 21 time they get a construction permit?
22 MR. STELLO:
Well, unless there is a blossom of 23 construction permits on the horizon I am not aware of, it 24 will be all of them.
So if somebody has a new construction 25 permit ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,.INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2345
29 1
C0tMISSIONEE GILINSKY:
No, but some of ther are 2 at a pretty early stage of construction.
3 MR. STELLO:
We would ascign them by 1952.
4 COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY:
You will cover every one f
5 of those ?
6 ME. STELLO:
Yes.
It will either be at a site for 7 which there are residents already assigned or, if _ there are 8 not, we will assign them.
We have put in eight positions in l-9 the cor.struction area f or that purpose.
i 10 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
Let's see now, Vic, in South 11 Texas the problems came up as a result of reports being made j
12 to us and then our following up on those reports.
WOOPS I i
13 thought was similar; reports being made and us following up
'i' 14 on t hem.
So I guess I understand what you a re saying but it j
15 appears to me that we shouldn't be trying to make the claim 4
i 16 that if we increase and put on an extra persen by adding to I
17 each one of these sites, that we will dig out all of this ij.
18 inf ormation a utomatically.
It really appears to me we ha ve 19 to make it clearer that we are receptive to receiving this l
20 kind of information and that once we receive it, we follow
[
21 up aggressively on it.
22 MR. STELLO:
Well, that is precisely the point I f
23 don' t want to make.
First, I don't quite agree it was l
24 strictly information that wa s coming from allegations.
I I ( '
25 think you will recall in the presentations of Marble Hill
's ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
30 1 that we had in defining the problems.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I didn't mention Marble Hill.
3 gg, 37gtto:
- ell, let.s take South Iexas.
If you 4 look, there were 11 previous inspections that were done 5 there.
And we were identifying these kinds of problems.
C CHAIREAU AHEARNE:
Those inspections were done as 7 the result of allegations that were made and then there were 8 followup investigations.
9 ME. STELLO:
As part of our inspection program, 10 when we go out there we do it piecemeal.
And even in 11 responding the way we did, which was piecemeal in the 12 previous 11, it wasn't until we sent a team of people'to 13 cover all of the areas where, ycu know, we were able to 14 conclude there were some things that needed to be chanced.
15 What I am suggesting is let's think about the possibility of 16 doing it.
Don't wait until somebody makes an allegation.
team of pe5ple in there and see if there are in f act 17 Send a 18 problems.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, I would argue against the 20 advantage of having a resident construction person.
21 MR. STELLO:
Well, I opted to ask for the 22 residents.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I understand.
24 MR. STELLO:
I think they serve a whole host of l\\
25 purposes.
The one thing you could ask f or is let's leave ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
31 1
1 those eight positior s and not for residents, and do what I 2 am just suggesting by using those eight people to do that.
3 And that is another way to do it.
Ferhaps it tight even be f
4 better.
I don't know.
Eut I think there are an avful lot 5 of advantages to having a resident available on site in 6 terms of the things they can do in the community.
The 7 things they can do in the community I think are very good.
8 EE. THOENBURG Th e other argument for the f
9 resident inspector early is we concentrate on the 10 implementation of the quality assurance program at the very 11 -highly formulative and early stages and we follow th e 12 implementation to make sure it gets r to a st'ar t so that 13 it fulfills its function better.
t,.
\\
14 R. STELLO That to me was one of the najor 15 problems I saw in construction and that I continue to see 16 there.
17 CD h!SSIONEE BRADFORD:
When you say that was one 18 of the major problems, what exactly do you mean by that?
19 MR. STELL0s Those plants in the early stages of 20 construction, for those plants -- well, our program only 21 allocates two-tenths of the prof essional man-year f or the 22 total inspection effort.
I was contrasting that against 23 some numbers f or plants where we have put in three times and 24 in some cases four times that ef fort when we have found 2
25 problems.
ALDERS.JN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINtA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345
s 32 i
1 I am-suggesting that perhaps what we cucht to do 2 is look very hard at the amount of activity thet is going on 3 into monitoring the activities early in the phase of 4 construction.
Although there is not an awful lot of the 5 other types of activities like electrical and mechanical and 6 that kind of stuff going on, I think there is enough to.
7 understand the OA system that the licensees have.
{
8 In the examples that I cited the breakdowns are 9 breakdowns in OA.
10 COMEISSIONEF BRADFORDs That is what I was acing 11 to ask you about.
12 MR. STELL0s And that is where we are not paying
)
13 enough attention to.
['
14 CDMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That is what I was going 15 to ask you.
Even if you doubled or tripled the inspection 16 ef f ort to four-tenths or six-tenths of a man-year, how do 17 you see a relationship developing between that and an 18 improved licensee O A program ?
Is it that the NBC person 19 vill then be him or herself better able to actually detect 20 f ailures in the O A program or is it that by being available 21 more of the time people are more likely to come to them?
22 MR. STELLO:
The manual gets you to look at very 23 little of the discreet parts at diff erent inspection 24 intervals spaced out by years.
By going in and taking a 25 comprehensive look with people in various specialty ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
n.
o 33 I backgrounds, soils engineers, foundation engineers, concrete 2 specialists, that sort of thing, to take the experience an'd i
i 3 put it all together from the various areas and say, "look, f
4 we really have a problem," we followed the South Iexas 4
l 5 approach where you can send the people in and then they get i
6 the total feedback back and it says "you have a--problen."
[~
7 -
COMMISSIONER BEADFOED:
Is that because, for 8 exam ple, they will '.ind the voids?
l 9
ER. STELLO:
Sorry?
l 10 CO MISSIONER BRADFORD:
Is th a t because they will 11 find the voids?
12 ER. STELLO:
Not necessarily finding voids.
It is j.
13 an understanding where in the GA system it is not working;
-l C-i 14 at Marble Hill where is it that it didn't work.
The i
i' 15.1. ice nsee was not really f ollowin g what was going on at his 16 site.
He was not monitoring in the sense of a ?A system the
[
17 construction activi ti es.
It is not so'important saying you l
18.have this void so fix it, as much as it is tha licensee 19 fulfilling his responsibility.
l 20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What I am trying to get a 21 feel for is what it is that the team is going to see that is i,
j l
22 going to tell him there is'a problem in the OA system here.
l 23 If they are not going to find the actual faults, what is it I
i 24 they will find?
f( '
25 MR. STELLO:
How are they handling nonconformance ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
_.. ~. _ _. _
34 1 reports; is the licensee reviewing ther; are they doing 2 trends; are they auditing them; how are the desica changes; i
3 is a design change needed as a result of something happenino 4 in the field; how is that pr ocessed to make sure that all og S th'e people that are supposed to have looked'at it have l
6 indeed' looked at it?
It is the process you are looking at:
h 7 the documentation system, the management systen, the I
8 independents, is there-harassment, are they really-going to i
9 keep the quality control people truly independent of the 10 cost and schedule problems.
'll C05!ISSIONER ERADFORD:
Just to take that one, how 12 would an NBC team find harassment?
I i
13 XR. STELLO:
Interviews and talking to a lot of 14 different people.
In South Texas I guess we talked to about 15 100 people.
Ve had a team up there.
A lot of that came 16 through from the resident himself, having the res; dent 17 arou nd...It was just at that time with the resident in South i
j 18 Texa s, we got in there as I recall about the end of August f
19 or September, and then we' got a whole new series of i
20 allegations that accumulated.
s 21 We sent the inspection team out in November.
So, 22 y es, it is all of these sources t hat helped to make the 23 judgment.
24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
In some ways it is a
'N 25 proposal to do on a more routine basis that which we now do ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)564 2345
i i:
35 t
1 after we have trouble?
i 4
2 ME. STELLO:
Yes.
Yes, to do more routinely and b
3 systematically and planned that which we wait to react to 4 when we hear problems.
That is the thought I had'in mind.
l 5
F. R. DEYOUNG:
Vic, you might make the point that 6 if we do use this.6 or
.8, we will have increased the 4
7 requested manpower by about 9 to 10 to 12 people.
We did 8 not come in with it.
Look'ing back, we think perhaps we i
9 should have included more manpower for this one activity.
t l
10 That is not in our budget request, and that is the point we 11 are making.
12 KR. STELLO:
The contractor program is essentially 13 sta ying constant.
There ic little change in that program.
f' 14 In the area of construction, and maybe I should save it for 15 later, we are looking at adding some additional people with 16 the capability of doing some more independent measurement at l
17 facilities.
I will be covering that later.
1
(
18 The details of what is in here, let me just i
19 synopsize them so you will get a feeling of how the budget 20 is made up, how do you get.this final number that is here.
21 For operating unit we have a decision unit called I
22 Reactor Construction.
They have a large number of technical i
23 specialists in that unit.
And when problems arise at i
i 24 operating units, these individuals respond to those i
25 problems.
We have specialists like the metallurgists.
}
i 1
f
'J l_
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 I
36
~
L 1
COH ISSIONER HENDEIE:
These are the engineering 2 part of reactor engineering and constructj- ?
l 3
ER.~FTELLO:
Yes.
About 27 positions, 4 prof essional :.an-years used for operating unit problemr and-l 5 just about one for plant problems with startup, the 1
l 6 breakdown in terms of the inspection under construction, i
l.
7 well, there is about four for the early facilities, the 20 8 facilities that will be in the early stages of construction;-
[.
i 9 17 in the mid stages; 25 in t'he late; and 13 pre-op.
The j
10 vendor and the contractor program has got 22 professional i
l l
11 man-years.
Then the rest of it is branch chiefs, section l'
l 12 leader, administrative support.
i l
13 If you want those kind of details, I think that 14 was the backup documentation, the D-2 schedules that were h
15 provided tc you.
l l'
16 Next, and this is in your package on, I guess, l
l 17 page 3, I have already indicated we would only be t.hle to do 18 about 60 percent of the manual inspections in terms of if we j
19 ge t the resources that are here, we will be able to assign l
20 the additional residents and get 100 percent resident l
[
21 coverage; we would be able to accomplish the Task Action l
22 Plan.
We will RECLAMA some item of that in t.erms of f
23 independent measurements.
24 We would like to, although we had original
's 25 resources in it, to at least on our trial program to try to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 354-2345
i 31 l
l~ reprogram.one or two residents to look at the possibility-of
.2 getting a resident inspector in a vendor shop, a supplier or 3 an architect engineer.
4 Ey view at the roment is I think.there is an awful 5 lot we can gain in understanding by~having-that individual 6 assigned f ull time in a nuclear steam supplier or architect 7 shop.
We are not asking you to try to reprogram.
But based 8 on what we'have here, we are asking you to at least try to
?
I 9 put one or two of them.
How many will depend on.how-things c
i 10 break out.
11 From. opening comments of the Chairman, if the ax f
12 is wielded pretty heavily, perhaps we will not be able to do 13 an y of it.
l 1-4 The items that ared being RECLAMh'from this are I
l
[
15 the section leader ratios --
i 16 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
Nine to one versus-eight-to one?
l i
l'7 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
And also the independent i
j 18 measurements ef f ort.
19 I wonder if maybe to save time if I cannot go to I
h 20 the RECLAMA items.
We are going to RECLAMA for the l
21 inspection chiefs -- this is Slide 24 -- the total for 1
[
22 section chief s, and that is to maintain a ra tio of one to l
l 23 eight that we are going to now, and it would require f
24 restoration of an additional eleven positions.
j 25 CHAIRY.7 AHEARNE:
What do yeu have right now?
I l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
I 400 VIRGINlA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
.{
t i
38 I What do you have in Fiscal Year 80?
1
)
2:
XR. DONNELLY:
I have taken two looks in Fiscal 1
3. Year.60s one back right after the fiscal year and one in I
.4 June.
Right after the start of the fiscal year it was about i
i.
[
5 one for 6.7.
The'last look was one for 7.c.
Our rule of
.I
[
6 thumb, which never works out exactly right because of the 7 five regions and the dif ferent sizes of the sections and so 8 forth, is to plan on one for 7.
And it has historically 9 varied around that number.
L L
f 10 Now you could go in at any particular branch at i
11 any particular point in time and have a section chief
[
12 vacancy and find a ratio of one for 15.
But it is only 13 because of that vacancy.
And on the average, if you look at c
s 14 it, it is about one for 7.
We increased it to one for 6 to 15 try te get a little more efficiency.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
In those ratios do you carry 17 the residents or is this only the units?
18 E. STELL0s It carries the residents as well.
19 And when you start with the fact that you have reridents, 20 the amount of time that it takes to stay in communication 21 with the residents as they are spread y out is very acute.
22 And in trying to add more and more individuals and keep them 23 abreast and the communication channels open, it becomes more 24 and more difficult.
The ode thing that.I do sense the need 25 to improve is the management systems that we do have in ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
39 1 I E E.
And backing down the section leader ratio to ne'is a 2 step in the wronc direction.
What we need is better and 3 more management and not lesser.
4 One could argue to try to get it more efficient, 5 but to review the inspection reports and to assure that the
+
6 enf orcement actions are taken und the judgments made in my 7 view requires f airly close supervision.
As-I look 8 throughout my experience in the agency, and experience I 9 have had elsewhere, the I E E ;atios are very unf avorable in j
i 3
10 terms of the management ratio.
The ratios elsewhere in the 11 agency are more like half of what we have.
And I think to 12 back it down and to lose eleven positions-in tne process in 13 my view is not a good idea.
And I feel very strongly about I
i 14 this one.
It is an area that I think is a mistake to do 15 it.
I would rather try to back down on doing' inspections'or 16 back down in the management systen.
17 The other area that we are --
18 CDMMISSIONER BRADF0ED:
You said the ratios l
b 19 elsewhere in the agency were about half of those in I E E7 i
20 MR. DEYOUNG:
About 4.4 or 4.5.
I 21 22 23 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
__,__.c__-
n-,_._ _ _
a 40-1 CHAIREAN LHEAENE:
,Now, what are you takin; e 2 ratio of when you say-that?
3
- v. E. DONhELLY:
We-just took a 1cok after the EDO 4 mark, to try to get some basis of comparability.
What I did i
I 5 was combine the branch chiefs and section chiefs in NRR and-j 6 NMSS and our office.
And I got data from th e respective 7 offices.
It took a ratio of that combined figure to all 8 professionals other than ads, division directors, office-9 directors.
And in doing that, the numbers for !!RE and NESS 10 came out in the neighborhood of 1-to-4 or
-4.5.
To compare 11 to what we would, you would find in our documents 1-to-7.
~
12 We pushed it to 1-to-8.
This would push it to one four nine 13 on section chiefs.
Combined we arr-about 1.72, I think, for
{
i t
14 combined branch chiefs and section chiefs, as opposed to
{
l 15 1.44.
(
16 MR. EARRY:
There is a detail that is missing 17 now.
In th e section chief s, in NRR, in NhSS, et cetera, 18 they are working section chiefs.
In other words, it is not 19 supe rvision.
They are actually involved to a great extent, 20 in some cases 100 percent, in the product along with their 21 project people.
In other words, it is not supervision 22 only.
It varies from 50 percent where they actually work 23 the product 24 MR. O'REILLY Can I make one comment?
I'm 25 shocked to find out they don 't think our section chiefs are j
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 I
J
.4l 1
involved in the end product.
Our section chiefs.are fully 2 involved-in the end product.
.(
3 E.
BARRY:
Do they inspect?
?
4 F. C'REILLY:
Absolutely.
" hat you all see here 5 are the inspectors.
The inspectors come up and talk.
One
- 6 of the reasons you don't see the regional inspectors is, 7 they are too busy back in the field to do anything.
l 8
MR. BARRY:
We were told they did not increct.
i 9
MR. O 'REILLY Well --
10 MR. DONNELLY:
Let me say this.
What we said, and i
11 I believe this to be true from calling the regions, is that 12 on planned routine inspections we do not use section chiefs, n
l L
13 but they have participatec in a lot of reactive inspection t
14 work.
And I think that may be what you are referring to.
15 MR. O 'R EILLY :
Absolutely, to a high decree.
They i
16 are the ones who put the touches on everything that come 17 trom the regions.
2 18 ER. STELLC4 Okay.
The other item of EECLA A 19 associated with the construction is an additional seven 20 positions to do some independent measurements.
What we 21 would like to be able to do is to have the capability to go 22 out -- snd we do have a van with equipment -- to have people d
23 go out using that equipment to do independent UT testing.
l 24 We are going to put breeoer: in and have independent J
(
25 radiography done through contract.
We don't have the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
42 1
radiographer with us.
And we would get inde pend en t l
2 capability within the agency.to go out and.de it.
And ve 3
will do it.
I couldn't even.'enture a guess as to how much 4 of the verification measurement prograr that-would i
-5 constitute.
I suspect it would be a very, very tiny 6 fraction of a percent that we would be doing.
Eut I think 7 the' capability to have it by itself will be very, very 8
significant in terms of any particular facility knowing.that 9 we could come in and do it.
And it would certainly cause l
10 them to want to make sure they are doing a very thorough i
11 job.
It is an area that you have emphas12ed your policy t
12 on.
It is an area that I would like to see some additional l
I 13 positions put for that purpose.
r 14 You can't do independent mearurements without f
15 people.
If we are going to do it, then it is going to I
16 require people to do it.
So to fulfill it this is an area 17 where I say it cannot be done without resources If we i
18 don't get tne resources, we just cannot do it.
It is that i
19 simple.
i 20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Give me a little better 21 feel for what this team will measure.
You dispatch them to l
t 22 a site.
What are they looking f or?
23 MR. STELLO:
Well, they will be able to 24 independently go in and use our own ultrasonic testing
(
25 equipment and go in and test something that the licensee har l
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
-1 tested using our own equipment.
They will be able to verify 2 his test result.
They will be ab3e to go in and do particle.
~
3 tests and so on, and get our own radiographs and read th er.
4 and conclude whether or not he has an adequate ETE progran 5 himself.
They will be able to do that by verifiing on, as I 6 said, a very, very tiny fraction of an audit basis.
7 COMEISSIONER BRADFORD:
What do you do now if you 8 get allegations of inadequacy in those areas?
De you have 9 to contract it out?
10 MR. STELLO:
Well, we don't do very much of it, 11 but that is the only thing we could do.
Yes.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is wrong with l
13 contracting out?
j
(
s 14 MR. STELLO:
Well, we would contract the 15 radiography still out, but we can do our own FDE work with 16 smaller-type equipment work.
You could contract that out 17 too.
We could contract somebody else to go in and do it, 18 but you kind of get that tainted feeling because the people I
19 you would be contracting it out to would be the people who 20 do th'is work to'begin with.
And so we mention this to try 21 to get to some measure of independence.
It is harder and 22 harder to get an independent contractor who is not doing 23 this work already.
24 CHAIR AN HENDRIEs Well, you got the laboratories
(
25 where we have these skills.
We do send metallurgjcal ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345
= _ _ _. - _ = _ _
~
44 1
1 specimens to the laboratories.
And I would.think that 2
somewhere in the labs there are some ultrasenic test, 3 diaphanometric test; not as many as there used to be, 4 because there is a lot less construction going on, 5 high-grade construction in.the labora tories,~ but I'would-6 think a few of those places still o'Jht to have the skills.
7 R. STELLO:
There is capability.
I should not 8 have left the impression there isn't.
I 9
COMMISSIONER BRADFORS:
Vic, if you had this 10 relatively small group, what kind of coverage would you get 11 from it?
How many days would they have to spend at a given 12 reactor site to run the kind of audit review that you have i
13 in mind?
e 14 MR. STELL0s I would visualize three or four days.
15 if they go in and bring in any equipment on site.
16 COEMISSIONER BRADFORDs So they could cover a fair-l 17 number of sites in the course of a year?
18 MR. STELLCs I don't know whether we even.have an 19 estimate.
20 Do you want to take a guess?
21 MR. THORNBURGa I would imagine you could cover, 22 say, ten sites a year.
23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That is four days or site 24 and then a number of days analyzing the results?
25 MR. STELLO:
Well, you have transit tir.e and I
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
- ~ _... - -. - - -
,,,._ =..
45 1
moving the equipmen t from place to place.
1 2
We haven't done a study as to how many sites you 3 could cover.
You could reduce the number of dayc per cite 4 in trying to get four sites covered.
The impcrtant thing, I 5 think, is having the capability.
We are not advancing this 6 in terms of the fact that we are going to be able to do an i
7 awful lot of it, cover a lot of facilities, as much as 8 having that capability.
9 COMMISSIONEL BRADFORD:
Will these people be i
10 working f ull-time on this area?
11 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
That is, in fact, it.
12 COMMISSIONEE BRADFORD:
What am I missing, then?
13 If it takes four days to do a site and the people are 14 working f ull-tir.e and you are figuring six to ten sites a 15 year, that sounds like.somewhere between 24 and 40 days plus 16 transit time.
17 COMMISSIOFER HENDRIE:
I suspect four days, site, 18 is kind of on the low side.
I suspect you are talking 19 something closer to two weeks once you get at a site.
And 20 my guess is that you are talking between sites anywhere from 21 two to four weeks to sort out the renults of the last one, 22 get ready for the next one, and mske peace with wives and 23 families for being away two weeks at a crack every two to j
24 four weeks.
I doubt the people on this team can end up 25 spending much better than one-third of their working days i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
d0 1
actually on site, what with considering the need to move the 2 van and sort out the results and so on.
It sounds like a
~
3 mean piece of duty te me.
4 C0KEISSIONEE BEADF0ED:
Does that sound right?
5 f.E. THOENBURG:
Yes.
I think that is a good 6 characterization.
We should allow a little bit for 7
discussinc results back and forth, too, between us and the l
8 licensee.
Th'ere will be interpretation differences.
l 9
COEMISSIOKEE HEND2IE:
What you have to recognire 10 is, if we go in this direction, one of the features of a 11 team like this is that they will be trying to make their 12 measurements on the more awkward and difficult places or on l
13 places where somebody has raised a question about the l
l 14 interpretation of a radiograph or they have done an 15 ultrasonic scan and people sort of differ about what all the 16 blips mean.
It will be those kinds of places that this 17 sampling team will tend to concentrate when it gets on site.
18 So instead of their inspection res,ults being sort i
l 19 of like the root mean square inspection results, which is a l
20 large volumi of pretty routine stuff and then some difficult 21 area s in it that require retesting and argument over the l
22 analysis, their work is going to tend to be much more i
23 concentrated, if not exclusively devoted to the stuff over 24 which there is going to be a rgument.
So, you know, they get 25 to a site, get the equipment calibrated, take a first-round
- v ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
a,w -.
47 j
1 measurement, turn up some things that look-odc cr different, 2 or whatever., from the ones the applicant has got.
They are 3 poing to be retesting sequences whilo people arcue about 4 what these things mean.-
And it is not that there is 5 something f u r.n y going on here, but rather it is just that 6 you get some of these indications and it may require 7 repeated shots before people are willing to agree tha't they 8 understand what they mean and the significance and so on.
9 So as to this outfit, just the nature of their 10 work, I think, is going to be not of a kind that would i
11 permit high-volume, many-site turnover of this stuff.
And I l
12 think there is a legitimate question of whether we should go i
f 13 back and relook at the question of NRC staff people in fact j
14 doing this kind of verification testing, and whether in view s
15 of overall pressures on the staffino level of the agency, 16 whether this is not a place that one ought not to go on site.
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Bill, what was the reason that 18 the EDO did not go for that program?
19 MR. DIRCKS:
Which one?
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The independent measurements 21 program.
i i
22 MR. BURDA I can probably answer that.
Certainly l
23 it was felt t ha t the effort devoted per reactor f or reactor i
24 construction has been increasing significantly over 1980 and
(
25 1981 or 1982.
And it was felt that this was somethinc that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
i
^
48 1
could be absorbed.
2 CEAIEEAF AHEARNE:
That could be what?
3 ME. BURDA:
That could be absorbed.
i 4
CHAIExAN AHEAENE:.Are you saying that EDC'r mark i
5 assumes the program would exist, but without the manpower?
I i
6 MR. SURDA:
Yes.
t i
7 CHAIRdAN AHEARNE:
Good.
Three other items are on 8 this sheet.
9 ER. STELLO:
Well, on this particular one let me.
10 finish, if I can, all the RECLAEA items save one that I will 11 come back for.
12 As you are aware, ve moved most of-the training i
13 activity to Chattanooga.
TVA has offered to provide us with
{
t 14 property contiguous to the simulators, so that we could put j
15 in office space adjacent to the simulators, which I think-16 would significantly improve the use of the simulators and 17 transit time of the people.
As I recall, the office space 18 that we are renting there is about 25 miles from the 19 simulator, with a very narrow bridge that goes over a dam 20 and is really a bottleneck.
I think that the need to really 21 get our training program moving and getting it in 22 first-class shape, I think we will take'a long leap forward 23 by having our own office space to conduct trainings.
24 They are going to expafid, as I understand it, that
.(
25 complex down there by putting in a motel and restaurant
- J ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
49 1
corplex.
So our people would be housed in one area and 2 avoid the transportation problem.
3 CHAIEMAN AHEABFE:
When you say " training 4 facility," then, you are talking about office space, 5 classroom space?
6 MR. STELLC Yes, of fice and classroom space to 7 use as part of the training.
When they go into the' trainin; 8 program, when they are on the simulators they.are in the TV A 9 building; when they are in the classrooms, they are in the 10 classrooms of a building that is 25 miles away.
I would
[
11 like to see -- and I don't know that the $2 million is 12 right.
It is more of a guess than anything else.
We have 13 not had any studier performed to come down to the $2-million 14 rate.
Some early estimates of the people that are reviewing 15 this at EDO, as I recall, had numbers like F1 million, 16 correct?
17 EE. BLAHA:
I'm not f amiliar with it.
18 MR. STEL10:
Somebody had come up with some 19 e sti ma tes.
e S
20 MR. BARRY:
Well, we just boucht some modular i
21 office space at Brookhaven not too long a7o.
These are
- O 22 very, very nice looking units to take care of about 25 23 people for roughly T370,000.
But that is a different 24 quality in the sense that the contractor is in New York.
He
<(
25 builds literally hundreds of these things.
Modular I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGIN!A AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 i
- - ~ - - _. _ - - -....,..
9
n 50
~
1 construction like that would be a tit cheaper than brand-new 2 buildings.
We would probably-have to-go to GSA to really 3 find out.
4 COMMISSIONEE FENDEIE:
How much space do you
~5 need?
Does anybody know?
6 MR. STELLO:
1 think the 12.;ure wa s 20,000 square 7 feet.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Twenty thousand?
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs How many people would we 10 normally have down there?
11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs Iwo million dollars isn't 12 too bad.
13 ME. STELLO:
Altogether in training our projected 14 move would be 25?
15 ER. DE YOUNG:
Tw e n ty -s ev e n.
16 KE. DONNELLY:
I think 23.
17 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
But that does, or does not, 18 include the people who would be in training?
~7 This is the training staff.
20 COMMIbaiONER GILINSKY What would be our normal 21 complement down there?
22 ME. STELLO:
That would be the normal complement, 23 plus the people you bring in for the training.
The class 24 sizes very from on the order of eight or nine to 25 twenty-five.
As to the class that is going in the af vanced ALT)ERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
i.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 t- - _
__,.m
~
53 1
program, the sinulater, I think -- I don't know -- six to 2 eight, as I. recall, in those clacses.
They are smaller in 3 the classes with the siculator.
And-then for some of the 4 more advanced areas --
5 COEKISSIONEE HENDEIE:
I take it you haven 't. been l
6 able to find any space north of the dam, north of the river?
7 ME. STELLO:
N o, we are on the other side.
It is 8 not space, but --
9 CDEhISSIONEP HENDEIE:
There de a lot less stuff 10 up there.
Ther are some shopping centers and one thina or i
11 another.
12 MR. STELLO:
There isn 't very much there.
If I i
l 13 recall, I don't recall seeing an office building on the e
i 14 other side of the river up there.
-s.
j 15 CDEEISSIONER GILINSKY Were we counting on l
l 16 building something in there when we originally thought this l
l l
17 out?
l 18 MR. STELLO4 No.
But subsequent to that we had 19 been. talking with TVA.
TVA pir.ns to expand what they have f
20 there.
They will have five simulators there and a motel and 21 office complex.
And they have offered us property, at 22 least, orally.
I think we should pursue it with them.
l 23 CDM ISSIONER HENDRIE:
This is an ideal situation 24 for a lease contract, except that has f allen into disarray 25 down on the Hill.
-l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
52 1
R. DONNELLY:
TVA builds its own stuff.
2 COM ISSIONER HENDRIE:
Just sc.
So it appearc to 3 me to be an ides 1 situation in which we should have a little 4 discussion with our old friend Dave Freedran, and maybe TVA 5 might, as they expand the training facility and put in the 6 additional simulators -- they've got two in there now and 7 there are several more to come -- that they might be 8 prevailed upon to build somewhat more office and classroom 9 space than would otherwise be the case and to recover the 10 investment in that from the lease charges which we would pay 11 them for the privilege of occupying that accesc space.
12 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
Have you discussed that?
13 COMEISSIONEE HENDLIE:
We could do that ever the e
14 next five years or whatever.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It sounds like a 16 money-making scheme.
17 COM IS3IONER HENDRIE:
That is right.
You know, 18 Dave could have 1 percent and the Commission could have 1 19 percent for the coffee fund.
I don't know.
Whatever.
20 Anyway, it seems-to me that (A) the school ought 21 to get itself one say or-another north of the Tennessee 22 River.
Until they open the new bridge down there, why, the 23 transit conditions from north to south get unendurable twice 24 a day and remain that way for an hour and one half in the 25 morning and an hour and one half at nicht, and maybe even c
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 2X124 (202) 554-2345
53 1
Y 1
longer in the afternoons.
That is pretty-touch'for people 2-who have to go tack and forth.
I would not mind if they had 3 to drive, you know, five miles down that road on the ncrth 4 side of the river to get from our clescrooms te TVA's place, 5 but since' there isn 't much there in the way of ccmmercial 6 spa c e',
why, working with TVA to see what might be done is 7 the thing to do.
8 Furthermore, I would think from TVA's standpoint 9 and the standpoint of having -- well, you know, they have 10 some pride in their facility.
I think they would not like i-11 it if we came down there and put up a trailer city along the 12 drive in.
So, from their standpoint, building additional' 13 space as they expand the f acility allows them to control f~
1-4 their quality and appearance and the architecture and so 15 on.
If they can get their money back from us over a l
16 reasonable leasing period, five years or wha tever, fine.
l 17 CHAIRMAN AHfARNE:
I gather you are already paying l
l 18 a certair. amount of lease cost a t th e f a cili ty you sentioned?
19 MR. STELLO:
The office?
Yes.
20 CEAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And you have classrooms in 21 there?
22 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE Why don't you discuss with TVA 24 what Joe has $_ct described?
]
25 MR. STELLO:.
Okay.
The point I am making, though, i
i ALDERSON REPORTING ~ COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
54 1
is to have some reccgnition to do this.
If we take it out 2 of the budget-and don't allow any funds for it and IVA sayr 3
that they won't lease it to us, we are in a two-yc ar budget 4 cycle which means we will be talking about getting effice 5 space in 1966.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I' guest my own personal 7 predilection would be to' shift that into
'E3, to hold a 8 place in the budget,.but to have you discuss with TVA the 9 possibility of going for a TVA building and then. expansion 10 and using the funds you would ordinarily be paying tor a 11 leass off-site, to lease that.'
12 MR. STELLO:
We will do that.
13 C3 HISSIONER HENDEIE:
Yes, I think you have to e
14 keep in mind the overall context in which we face this 15 budget in terms of dollars., which may in-the long run turn.
16 out to be the easier side of the proposition.
We are l'7 looking at an increase 0: $110 million between the.a p pa rent 18 Congressional level in fiscal year 1981 and fiscal ~ year 19 1982.
And I am convinced tret the collective agencies that 20 are going to review.us, the OME and the Congress, that ^here 21 ain't no way they are going to put up an additional $110 22 million.
Ok a y ?
That means that we start from a place and I 4
23 start.from a place in terms of my perronal review of the EDO 24 mark is hopelessly high.
And'what is going to have to come-25 out of the discussions around this table are dollar and ALC.RSON REPOR'. LNG COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
55
~
1 people levels that are substantially less than th e EDO -
2 mark.
Okay?-
3 3
Now, ICE beinc a major contributor tc the'110 4 access and the people - access over the CXb cuidance levels 5 and so on, you know, we simply'have got to look for ways to 6 shape the program and to shift noney around to find better 7 ways te do things, and to talk about what we are ocing to 8 have to trim out.'
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Vic, I would suggest you try to 10 cover your other two RECLA%A items and then let us to ask 11 you questions, because at some point we are going to have to 12 start making marks.
And if we don't get our questions 13 asked, we may have to do it on the basis of inaccurate cata.
(
14 HE. STELLO:
Okay.
The 7375,000 is anticipation 15 that we will have a relocation service for the residents.
16 If we have one, there ought to be money.
That is for 17 discussion.
(
18 Control and accounting is in recognition of the 19 need -- le t me 7et th e pa per.
I will cover that.
I will 20 not go back to the slide at all.
21 Do you happen to remember what the title number _of 22 licensees in this category are?
23 ER. DONNELLYs I don't.
24 MR. DIBCKS:
In effect, about 94 licensees out of
]
25 a group of 359.
Wait a mi nute.
That is-the CCA upgrade j
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
r 56 1
rule.
Thire I think we have another breakdown.
The upgrade 2 rule itself, including the caseload panel, would. cpply to 19 3 percent.
Is that right, 19 percent?
And then the 4 saf eguards division at NMSS shculd apply to four.
!CE, of 5 course, is based on the caseload.
j 6
Here there is a bit of a debate between where the 7 rule applies and where it does not apply.
The four l
8 facilities that NMSS says it should apply to are: Atomics 9 International, Erwin, BNW, Navy, UNC.
There may be a 10 confusion here that the caseload panel took all licensees 11 that have HEU and LEU.
The rule applies only tc those 12 licensees that possess or use more than one effective 13 kilogram or five-type formula kilograms.
14 So there is this discrepancy in here that we have 15 to straighten out.
But I'm not saying that that would 16 account for the differences in the numbers of the 17 personnel.
I think we have to translate the facility 18 population to workload number.
This only came up cuite i'
19 recently.
f I
20 r0MMISSIONER HENDRIE.
Let's see, slide 20 is the 21 one that har this particular item in it, right?
That is, 22 wi th the asterisk.
23 ER. STELLO:
Would you go to slide 20?
24 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
1 take it this is a list 25 of, this is sort of a summary list for the safeguards ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
_-_.-m-
_m
_m_
_m___,_m_m
_____a
57 H
,e 1
program area between 'the office request and the EDC nark?
2, R.
DIRC S:-
I think we have tc. explain again 3 about how it is broken down.
I understand the ICE asked for 4
169 and the EDO mark was 119.
There whs some guidance given 5 in the EDO mark, but it did not result in this specific 6 item-by-item break d o wn.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs But the total?
8 MR. DIRCKS:
One hundred nineteen.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
It is a fiscal guidance?
10 MR. DIRCKSs I liked it so much I decided to use 11 it, too.
12 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
So I think what you are saying 13 is that GEO r. ark was more on a total allocated than a 14 safeguards area.
And this is allowed by EDO.
So this is 15 how IEE would, given the EDO mark, how IEE vould allocate 16 the resources?
17 MR. STELLO:
Well, it is more than that, too.
18 What we did, as I indicated to the EDO when I went through 19 it, we did sit down with N SS and go over it, and since the 20 largest. demand in the saf eguards area was from the new rule, 21 we looked at what we really were required to do and what the 22 new rules said we could and couldn't do.
And it was based 23 on going through that discussion and because of that 24 discussion we did reprogram this way and have essentially
- 25. agreed with the EDO in this one area.
And I guess I'm still ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 a2.~-.-_.---...~._m.-.-
.I
~..-
e___.---
'l b8 1
frustrated.
I make my judgment on the basis of how ro a n y 2 f acilities it has to be done at.
And that is not what it 3
is.
I don't know I have made the right judgnent on it.
I 4 don't know.hy we can't agree on what the caseload is.
5 Either we are required to inspect against that rule, against 6 that facility, or we are not.
And I thought we had it 7
resolved, but I guess we did not.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
1 don't think you have it.
9 ER. DIRCKS:
I think he did indica te you had 10 agreed if the facility was to be inspected, these are the 11 right workloads.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Can I ask that icsue to be 13 resolved by later in the week and get a piece of paper back 14 that says, "Here is what the resolution is and here is the 15 effect upon manpower"?
16 MR. STELLO:
And if it is a reduced number, then I i
l'7 think the requirement ougbi to be appropriately reduced.
18 That covers all the RECLAM A items.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs What is the I AEA?
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Tha t is. the new treaty, I guess.
21 MR. DIRCKS:
That their inspectors will be 22 accompanied by our inspectors.
23 MR. BURDA:
The IAEA has said, in INFICRC-153 24 corrected, that for fuel facilities they would require 66 25 minimum days for inspections by an IAEA inspector, 82 L
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
59 1
minimum days at a low-enriched facility,.and Lu raxinut dayr 2 as a reactor.
3 C0KEISSIONER GILIFSKY:
You have more at t 4 lower-enriched facility than a higher-enriched facility?
i 5
MR. RURDA:
Yes, because there is more material
{
6 control and accounting and key measurement points and what t
7 they call additional material balance.
I 8
We were kind of conservative.
We have a forrer 9 IAEA on our staff.
He says he thinks there would be a 10 couple of residents in the United States, not by '82 but --
f i
11 CHAIRKAN AHEARNE:
But independent of that?
I f
i 12 mean, you are describing what IAEA's requirements are.
And j
13 the question here is where our requirements came f rom.
14 HE. BURDA:
It is our understanding that we are to 15 accompany the I AEA inspector when he goes to the site.
In 16 addition, you would have to inspect part 75 requirements l
17 that are in addition to the part 70 requirements.
l l
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is that part of the rule?
i I
j.
19 ER. BURDA:
Yes, sir.
20 COMMISSIDEER GILINSKY:
Is it part of the rule or 21 the treaty?
22 ER. DIRCKS:
The rule accompanying the treaty.
t 23 There is the treaty and then the rule.
24 C0KHISSIONER HENDRIE:
.Does the rule say we go
(
25 with them?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANYJ INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345
60 1
S.
BURDA:
Tes.
It says ve will be accompanied.
2 It doesn't say by who.
3 CHl.IPMAN AHEARNE:
I wonder if I might ask some 4 quections.
5 ME. STELLO:
Why don't you just ask whatever 6 questions.
We have 55 minutes, according to.your 7 ann.uncement'at the beginning.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
First question, what are 9 you doing with all of these people?
How is that for a first 10 question?
11 CHAIPMAN AHEARNE:
Wait, we will return to you.
I 12 would like for you to get back later in the week with what i
13 ycu would do with 990 people.
Tell us what changes you i
14 would make.
I share Joe's comment to you that I don't think i
15 we're going to get anywhere near the number of people that 16 EDO has proposed.
l 17 You mentioned that the way you would get from the 18 946 to the 909 is to drop the second inspector at l
l 19 single-unit sites.
l 20 MR. STELLO4 Right.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What would be the effect in 22 1982 and 19E3 if you continued that, not having a second 23 resident in the single-unit sites?
I i
24 MR. STELLO:
Is that something you want responded 25 by this week?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
-- ~
__._.m _ m __ _. _. _
A 61 1
CHAI?f.AN AEIAENE:
Yes.
- 2 3
s 4
e 5
6 7
8 9-10 11 12 13 14 15 16 l
17 18 19 20 21 22
. 23 24 5
2s 9
s ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
= _..
~
62 1
MR. EARRY:
There are ebout nine differencer 2 between 1961 and 1962.
There ar e about a4 in 1962 and 37 in-3 1961.
4 MF. STELLO:
Fut those are not all at cultipla i
5 unit sites.
Ycu have to reduce those so that you have it
-j 6 only at the single unit sites.
-7 CHAIBMAN AHEARNE:
Do you have part-time clerical 8 support for all residents included in your budget?
9' MR. STELLO:
In dolla rs, yes.
10 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
Now you make a point in your 11 RECLA A, Vic, that as to the percentage of the manual that-12 will be covered as you take various levels of cuts.
And I 13 guess you end up saying 70 percent is what would be covered t'
14 under your RECLAEA level.
15 MR. STELLO:
With the program we are asking for,
'16 yes.
17 CHAIPMAN AHEARNE:
So clearly you have reached a 18 conclucien thant to some extent the manual need not be 19 covered 100 percent?
20 MR. STELLO:
It is presently not being covered, 21 yes.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What would your description be 23 of the situation if you only covered 50 percent of the I
24 manual ?
25
!R. STELL0s I don't know.
I would have to ao l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHlhGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
= _. _ = _ =.
63 I back and look.
2 CHAI? MAN AHEARNE:
The point has beer. rade~that 3 100 percent is not required.
So I am tryinc to thrash it 4 out.
5 COMMISSIONEF ERADFORD:
It is a percent of a 6 percent anyway.
Tnat is, the whole manual has a formula for 7 an audit.
8 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
I know.
9 MR. STELLO:
But at some point when you reduce it, 10 then there are certain regulations and requirements that we 11 von't inspect against at all.
And when you get to that 12 poin t, that is when you start to raise the question.
13 CDMMISSIONEE ERADFORD:
I suppose what you have to 14 do, as you drive the number of inspections down, it to drive 15 the penalties up because the less the chance of somebody's 16 getting caught, the higher the cost of getting caught.
17 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:^ We have already got the 18 legiciation to do the latter.
19 COM ISSIONER GILINSKY:
That is right, but there 20 remains the implementing.
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, I am not sure that 22 follows necessarily.
I am not sure this is the place to 23 debate it.
24 CHAIEMAN APEARNE:
But what I am trying to get is
~
25 the I C E's iudgment as to where is the breakpoint, and core ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
=
6d.
.c.
I specifically, is 50 percent acceptable, an acceptable 2 level?
And I would like you to think shout that and get 3 back on that.
4 The second cuestion is if we do have to reduce 5 inspectors, let us suppose that a reduction murt be made 6 from the request, is it better to reduce regional or 7 resident?
8 MR. STELLO:
I would answer that by sayinc tha t if 9 ve had to do it, I would cut back on the resident one 10 first.
I think the regional based program is already 11 impacted too great to have to take any more out.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Now, you would cut back on the 13 second at a single unit site?
j 14 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
The second and th'e third in the 15 three units.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Okay, if we had just one at all 17 sites, what would be the 1982 number?
18 MR. STELLO:
Roughly 37.
It is not much bi,gger 19 than that.
Maybe 40 or 41.
(
20 MR. DONNELLY:
I think what you are saying is the 21 second resident at all sites.
He understood you to say that 22 would be the next thing you would pull out.
After you took 23 the second one at single unit sites you would take the 24 second one a t all sites.
25 MR. STELLO:
That number is on the order of 70.
9 C.DERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGIN.A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
65 1
CHAIEMAN AMEARNE:
This is operating?
2 ME..DCNNELLY:
Yes.
3 CHAIREAN AMEARNE:
Could you get that figure?
4 R. ETILLO:
Are you taking notes?
5 XR. DONNELLY Yes.
6 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
Now both in the PPPG and in 7 some Commission guidance standards we have agreed tha t there 8 is g oing' to be a review of the NRC rules and regulations, a 9 co mp reh en siv e review over the next five years.
Do ycu make 10 any assumption as the result of that kind of eview?
11 ER. STELLO:
I could make you a guess.
There is 12 no assumption in this budget.
In my view the impact of 13 that, whatever it is, was not considered.
I would think,
('
14 though, that if I were making a guess, at the end of five 15 years I would suspect that our regulations would be more and 16 more detailed.
We would require even more effort rather 17 than less.
They are general now and I suspect they are 18 going to get more specific.
All of the regulations you'have 19 passed have considerable detail in them.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
I really was asking 21 whether there was any assumption?
22 MR. STELLO:
No.
23 CHAIREAN AHEARNEs In the guidance there is a 24 poin t made, let's see, the q uote is "to support its 25 oversight of the license industry and recognizing the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 l
_m__
I
66 1 probability of resource limitations, NEC will consider the 2 development of inspection assistance with third ptrties. "
3 1s there any assumption in the 19E2-1983 budget on 4 the involvement of additional third parties?
5 KR. STELLC.
Yes, we a re going 'to try to do that 6 f or qualifica tion f or electrical equipment, and we are still l
7 working with ASME on the national board.
We have not been 8 able to make the judgment as to how much of a cavings that 9 would mean to us in this budget cycle until first we can get 10 an a greement in principle to an assumption.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE4 Now you have an overhead i
12 alloca tion, I think, of 40 percent.
Now is that a 40-
{
percent that goes across the whole I E E framework for every
]
13 14 professional?
15 MR. DONNELLY No, it is regional only.
It does i
16 not apply to the headquarters.
It is an add-on f or three i
17 things 4 clerical supports all the administrative support
-I 18 the administrations provide for the=selves that we cet fror 19 the Office of Administration or Pro curement, or whatever, I
20 here; and the section chiefs.
So for every inspector 21 position that we add, we add the 40 percent plus add-on for 22 that.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Do you know what the agency 24 overhead is?
25 ME. SNIEZEK:
About one to four,.
About u0 percent ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
67 r
I across the board.
2
- 2. DONNELLY:
Well, it is co= parable, ours is, 3 but we have performed the additional functicns of 4 procurement and travel suppert, personnel support, and so 5 forth in the recions in that 40 percent.
If you have added
~
6 tha t _ out, I thin'.. tha t is another u 0 - posi tion s.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You use the phrase " direct 8 professional presence" in your description; that you will 9 increase the direct professional presence by so many 10 percent.
That is in the budget."
11 When you say you will increase the' direct 12 professional presence by 10 percent, is that 10 percent 13 additional professional man-years at the site?
14 MR. DONNELLY4 I don't recall the language.
I 15 really don't.
16 MR. BURDA:
Maybe I can clarify that.
That was a 17 factor that was used by adding up the planned professional 18 direct man-years associated with eacn pl:nned accomplishment 19 f or operating reactors or reactors under construction, A dividing by the number of reactors in operation or in 21 construction during those years.
22 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
So-it is more an EDO term and 23 not an I L E term?
24 R. BURDA:
We wanted to give the Commission an 25 idea of whether there was an increase' and how much the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 n~__...n
-. -- - -_ m - - - -- w..-_.;.-
=._.._-,.
_ _. _ _ = _
.a 68 1 increase was.
2 CHAIRhAN AHEARNE4 I see.
3 You mentioned, Vic, that you had peinted-cut early 4 in the beginning that there is a planned increase in 5 operating reactors in 1982 ani another increase in'1933; and 6 therefore, since over 50 percent of your resources are 7 allocated to those reactors in any event, there occht to be 8 an increase in the resources.
And you in dicated 72 9 man-years of that.
10 MR. STELLO:
I var not indicating that is what our 11 budget increase ought to be.
12 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
I understand.
13 XR. STELLO:
That was only to suggest why the 14 fiscal guidance perhaps didn't fit in the context it'ought 15 to.
16 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
I understand.
Is there a 17 corr esponding rough number of the decrease in the 18 construction inspection f orce?
Because all of th'ose that i
19 transfer into operating, you know, are reactors that used to-20 be on the construction side.
I am trying to get an i
21 estimate.
Are you talking about a plus 60?
22
!R. STELLO:
That obviously is taken into account, l
23 but let me remind you of something.
A plant that is in i
24 early construction, f or that I indicated we used two-tenths 25 of a professional man-year.
For a plant that is late in l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
69 i
l construction we used just over one professional nan-year.
2 So as the plants get older, the amount of manpower for thor.e 3 under construction, although there are fewer, you are 4 shifting to the more intense inspection.
5 CHAIEMAN AHEAENE:
But when you said ~ 72 ran-years 6 f or this 13 percent in 1982 and 9 percent in 1983, is that 7 72 in additional'to what already was covered in their final 8 stages of construction?
9 MR. STELLO:
I guess I would say I was just using 10 the 72 as an EG.
Our budget clearly, the numbers that we 11 have that are presented and that are calcula ted based on 12 what it takes to do the job --
13 CH AIR M A!; AHEARNE:
Vic, I am trying to see the 14 hard part of where whoever is going to be on this side of 15 the tabls is going to go forward to try to defend large 16 in creases.
And one of the vays it can well be defended is 17 to point out that it is not anything more, that parts of it 18 are nothing more than reflecting the transition of reactors 19.in these various rtages of growth.
20 And so I am asking when you say 72, you are 21 deriving that from the reactors in 1982 and 1983 that are 22 coming into or plan to come online, that they are becoming 23 operational; and that is a greater anount of I ?. E workforce 24 that has to se allocated.
But clearly there is a portion of 25 the I L E workforce, as you have already pointed out, is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
70 1 already allocated to those reactors in their late ctaces of 2 construction.
3 I an asking is 72 a delta dif f eren ce be tween what 4 would be planned to be allocated when '.5ey were in the final 5 stages of construction and now which would have to be 6 allocated once they become operating, or is it strictly the 7 operating then from which you would nave to subtract these 8 late stages of construction?
9 hR. DONNELLY:
It is the former.
The reason it is 10 that is because of what he explained earlier, that the 11 resources that might have transferred --
12 CHAIR 5AN AHEARNE:
I understand.
But you are 13 saying it is the former?
14
%R. DONNELLY:
Yes.
15 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
It is the delta ?
And could you 16 check that and make sure?
Because it has to be one of the l'7 big defense arguments for an increase in I C E budget.
18 Okay, the 72 number, by looking at the percentage 19 increase in the operating reactors, how Tuch of our totcl 20 I C E manpower goes there?
To give a for example of how 21 things are shifting to where the twelve positions that were 22 in the fiscal program wouldn 't be enough to cover it, it 23 w a sn ' t any systematic analysis of the budget, correct?
The 24 only systematic analysis of the budget is one that you 25 h a v e.
If you used that '72 f or anything at all, it is with 1:
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
s 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
7l
~l great caution.
2 Lynn, do you think the I f. E on Friday could give 3 me an estimate?
4 EE. STELLO:
We will get a good one.
5 CH AIR AN AHEA EFE Thank you.
I noticed you have 6a large increase that you say are needed to' complete the 7-Task Action Plans.
And I noticed that at least your il 8 forecasts are that that is a bout 22 people in 1982, 24 9 people in 1983, 27 people in 1984 Does it begin to die off 10 af ter that or is that a permanent addition?
11 MR. STELLCs I don 't know how to answer th,e 12 question does it die off.
It dies of f f or the Task Action 13 Plan.
Eut you have some new things coming in.
! cur earlier-14 question is what is the impact of the re vised r eg ul a tion s.
15 a n d, well, it will take up whatever slack is there.
And you 16 ask can you now really reduce it, and I don't know.
I don't 17 know how to make that judgment until you see what the impact 18 from some of the ather things you know are goinc~to happen 19 in that timeframe are.
It is too far off.
20 Looking at it in isolation, it can level off.
As 21 to the Task Acti:n Plan itself, if you look at the 22 regula tions, I really don't know what that impact will be.
23 CHAIEKAN AHEARNE:
Vic?
24 C05MISSIONER GILINSKY I am not clear on what the 25 increment' is in the resident inspector-program between 1981 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
_...._L.---
,4.,
_.-_._r__.._.----_.._.__-_,_,___.__
______1____y
72 e.
1 and'1982.
Suppose you take the congressional' or the 2 regulation' budget for 1931 and let's take the EDO budget for 3 1982, how much of tha t difference is accounted for by 4 resident inspectors?
5 XR. STELLO:
For operations it is an increase in 6 1982 from six seniors and six residents.
7 COMMISSIONEE GILI;iSKY :
For the OFS?
8 MR. STELLO:
In construction it is an increase of 9 plus eight.
So it is 20.
10 CHAIBMAN AHEARNE:
So it is 12 with the GPS, and 11 the other eight are in construction?
12 CDEMISSIONER GILINSKYs So we have 20 resicents 13 between those two budgets?
14 MR. STELLO:
In 1981 and 1982.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Where does that put those 16 37?
I thought those 37 were coming off the resident program 17 if you didn't get them?
18 ER. STELLO:
Well, I must ask if you start to cut s
-19 me b a ck, where vill I start cutting bac k; will I start 20 cutting regional-based program first or the resident 21 program?
If you cut me back, I will start by reducing the 22 number of residents.
I don't think we can cut the 23 regional-based program anymore.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I was asking about the 25 1981.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
73 1
COMEISSIONEE EENDFIE:
Wait a minute.
You based J
2 your budget on 37 more people in the program' in I E E in-3 Fiscal Year 1951, then maybe there when the Ecuse 4 Appropriations Committee, when the appropriaticns committeec 5 complete their action s, okay?
And we have asked where if 6 the 1991 base is 909 instead of 1946, were you going to take 7 the 37 people.. And wha t you have said is that those staff 8-years will come out of the second resident et one reactor 9 sites plus some overhead support for those people, and that 10 will total 37 ; and it would come out of your decision unit 11 on reactor operations.
12 Now when you say that the resident delta, 1981 to 13 l
1982 is 20, I guess you are saying 20 over the 946 number, 1-4 that is over the resident pa rt of the 946.
So it is either 15 20, if you start from that base, or 57 if you start from 16 wh a t may be the actual 1981 level.
Does tha t sound correct?
17 ER. STELLO:
There is one more option in there and 18 that is to take the second resident out from th e multiple.
19 That is a bigger number.
That is like 70.
i 20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Fell, that would pull down 21 -- I don 't know whether y^u would regard that as pulling 22 do wn the 1981 base below 909.
It is not going to go below 23 909.
24 MR. STELLos How about in 1982 if we don't get i
i 25 this, wha t is the impact?
1 l
ALDERSON 'REPCRTING COMPANY,' INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___..._______j
74 1-C05 ISSIDl:ER GILINSKY
.I just wanted to 2 understand, just taking the EDO budget, how much-of that 3 difference between that 4
ME. STELL0s The IDO mark thtt they ceve us 5 includec the capability to add those 20 residente.
6 COMEISSIONER GILIESKY Okay.
I wonder if you 7 would take a minute and just run over this resident. thing 4
8 with me.
In 1981, let's just take the construction 9 operations --
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Give us a table on that too.
L 11 R. STELLO:
We would be happy to.
12 COMMISSIONEE GILIESKY:
If you could just supply a l
[
13 table, that would be fine, and just for 1981 and 1982 and
'r t
14 1983.
In 1961 have two columns:
one for the 909 and the h
l 15 other for the 946 and break it down to construction sites, l
16 o per a tin g sites, f uel f acilities.
I guess you will have 17 multiple unit sites.
We will leave the categories to you.
18 MR. STELLO:
I think I understand the thrust of 19 what you are looking at.
20 COM!ISSIONER GILINSKY So one c..n'take a look at 21 it and just say what are we covering for each of these 22 levals.
i j
23 MR. STELLO:
Done.
J.
24 COMEISSIONER GILINSKY Thank you.
That is all.
25 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Bill?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
Eo e-75 e--
1 C3MMISSIONER GILINSKY:
One-ccre gusstion.
I see 2 you are adding something to the enforcement-cide.
Can you 3 say something about that?
There is a cateoory cel19d 4 Enforcenent, Investigations, and Special Procrcms.
And I 5 noticed you got exactly what you wanted.
6 MR. STELL0s What we had been looking at-is the 7 way the enforcement actions over the last year have been 8 increasing.
It is awful hard with this particular curve to 9 project where it is going to be in 1982 since the slope 10 continues to look like it is ever-increasing.
Eut with a 11 tougher enforcement policy it is going to continue to rise 12 a t least for some time.
I don't know where the end is yet.
13 CHAIBMAN AHEARNEt The civil penal ties, these are 14 the number of actions by quarter?
15 MR. STELLO.
Yes.
16 Recognizing that in order to do this it just 17 requirec an awful lot of time in trying to make an estimate 18 so that we don't fall short to accomplish these enforcement 19 actions.
So we are looking for an additional six positions 20 in the regions and headquarters to continue to be'able to 21 support it.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What are these people?
23 MR. STELLO:
These people are going to be
- 24. responsible f or pulling together the packages for 25 enf orcement. ~There will be bits and pieces of a lotnof ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
~.. -. -. -.. - - - - -
o a
76 e-1 people's time.
But they are add-ons.
They are over and 2 above.
The inspection is finished and nov you have to put 3 together an enforcement package.
4 C05 ISSIONER CILINSKY:
Are these indivi?.uals with 5 full-time enforcement responsibilities?
6 HR. STELLO:
No.
These are going to be additional 7 parts of people's time.
There are going to be one 8 enf orcement coordinator in each region.
l 9
CO KISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is that f ull time?
10 R.
STELLO:
That will be full time, i
I 11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I must say my cut feelin1
(
12 is there is a tradeoff between enforcement and the other l
i things we do.
.h 13 i
14 CHAIREAN AHEARNEs There has to be since we are 15 basically an audit type.
h 16 C05MISSIONER GILINSKY It does compensate.
17 MR. STELLO:
But the fever inspections you do, t h i.
18 lesser enforcement you are going to find too.
The l
l 19 enf orcement is a product of a given number of inspections.
I i
20 The fewer the inspections, the fewer enforcement examples l
21 you come up with.
j 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY But still you are going to
[
23 try to provide incentives for people to do things right.
l 24 One way is to have a police car every mile se people always 25 see a police car and don't speed.
Another way to do this is i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
e-D 77 1 to hand out fairly hefty fines when people speed.
1.n d you
.{
2 vant some of each obviously.
3 PE. STELLO:
The police cars are the inspectors 4 out there finding the problem.
The judges are issuing the 5 fines.
If you take away the police cars, you are going to 6 have fewer cases before the judge.
That is the point'I am 7 trying to make.
8 COMMISSIONEE GILIESKYs I understand.
9 MR. STELLO:
So if you make the case 10 C3MMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We are not talking about 11 eliminating one or the other.
12
- y. R. STELLO:
I thought that was: Commissioner 13 Bradford 's a rgument a minute ago.
14 COMMISSIONEF ERADFORD:
No, first of all, I was 15 n ot advocating either approach.
What I was saying is if you 16 vent in the direction of reducing the inspectors, it seems 17 to m e, desirable or not, that you then had to offset that by 18 increasing the level of penalties in order to get the same 19 amount of deterrence.
I mean, I suppose you could concoct 20 some relative f ormula about X times Y equaling Z, if it is X 21 you got to increase Y if you want to produce 2.
But I was 22 not suggesting that necessarily we take the-first step.
It 23 just seemed to me if we did, it had implications for the 24 second part of the equa tion.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Ultieately what we.re t
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345 n
=
78 l'trying to do is inprove pe r f e rca n ce.
We wont pecple.to do 2 things right.
And hopef ully there won't be any fines to 3 give out to anybody.
But we are increasing the presence of 4 NRC at the varicus iacilities.
We are putting in residents 5 and so on.
The question is to what extent chculd ve be 6 increasing that presences by placing people at the 1
7 facilities, by conducting all sorts of unannounced 8 inspections and so on?
l i
9 There is another aspect of this, which ir the
{
10 enf o rcement side.
And it seems to mi. that is a.n inportant 11 part of the equation.
And ultimately it is not a matter of 12 reducing that presence:
we are increasing the presence.
13 But the question is how much and whac sort of balance to 14 strik e th ere.
And there I think enferces.ent has a lot to do 15 with it.
16 MR. STELLO:
I share your idea.
I think it does.
e 17 I think in f act what this curve shows is that since I guess 18 the last year we have moved from like about one per quarter 19 up to now like 15.
So we clearly are being a lot tougher in 20 enforce:
at.
I 21 COEMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That is something you were 22 emphasizing when we talked about it here a month ago.
You 23 know, we just cpend an awful lot of time, at least in the 24 pa st we have, going over and over things.
And tha t eats up 25 your eff ort.
And I think the promptness of an enforcerent
~
)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
\\
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
---...~ -------- - -.
e c
- o 79 1 is terribly important.
2 MR. STELLO:
Clearly it is not our job to nake the 3 facility safe.
We cannot do that alone.
It is for the l
4 u tili ti e s.
And it is up to us to make sure that they are.
P k
5 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
While not disagreeing with the l
6 philosophy, let me see if we can get back to the budget
)
7 questions.
Did you have any more questions?
i 8
CD EISSIONEE GILINSKY:
No.
j.
9 COEMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I have some.
Let's see.
l 10 Out of the reactor engineering and construction decision 11 unit there is some section of the proposed nanpower there 12 that contributes to operating reactors.
You say there was 13 something like, what, 20 or 30 staff years in the l-14 engineering side.
And then some fraction of that is in l
l 15 support of operating reactors.
I think 10.
I don't know.
1 l
16 In the reactor operations decision unit I guess all of that i
17 can be f airly ascribed to operating units.
18 If I take the Fiscal 1981 level at 241, which 4
19 takes the dim view of the likely outcome of congressional i-20 action, then in radiological saf ety there must be some i
21 f raction of the 212 staff years there that'are applied to l
l 22 operating units.
What kind of a guess would you make there?
j i
23 MR. STELLO:
Regulations anii safety?
That is a 1-1 i
24 pretty big number.
25 CO!MISSIONEP HENDEIE:
Well, you have all of the l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
1 80 1 ma't e ria l licensees and the radiographers.cxpering one 2 another and so cn.
So obviously, you know, you got a lot of 3 work there.
But for operating reactors there ::ruct be. rose 4 fair fruction.
5 E. STELL0s 65.
6 ME. DONNELLY:
82.
7 ER. TEINEE:
80 to 90.
8 MB. DONNELLY I think we are mixing though.
If I 9 may, may I add?
When you pull the total out of reactor 10 operations, as you did minus the House Appropriations 11 Committee cut, you have pulled the headquarters component, 12 all the clerical component, the administrative support and 13 the regional component in that number.
These numbers we are 14 giving you, including the one you pulled from construction, 15 were inspectors only.
So we kind of got apples'and oranges 16 mixed.
17 COEMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
But if I take the 18 administrative overhead that is included in reacter ops but I
19 don't include administrative support for the other people, i
20 why if anything it shades where I am going I think in favor-l 21 of leaner numbers than. may actually be the case.
I would 22 sa y there is something like 80 there.
In safeguards there 23 a re a t Ieast some fraction of those people who inspect 24 operating reactors --
25 ME. DONNELLY:
19 inspectors.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
=----
~n.
81 1
COEY!ESIDFEP HENDE!Es 19.
Oh, dear, let ce ship 2 the rest.
In FEE there is something like 260 staff years in 3 the operating reactors category.
Let ne ignore the peo;1e 4 in casswork and safety systems and all the rest cf it end 5 just add 260 to this total.
Now where am I?
We have about-6 600 people.
There are 70 operating units.
Add another 10 7 that you need to be up on for coming in in 1982.
It works 8 out about to seven and one-half staff years per opera ting 9 unit in this tineframe.
And that still leavec substantial 10 unaccounted f or f orces in NER for special problems and so 11 on.
It does not include the fraction of your people and so 12 on engaged in enf orcement.
What I am asking is to try to i
13 see what sort of fraction of the agency's force is fairly 14 directly concerned with operating units and between the two 15 of fices.
And, you know, it looks something like seven and 16 one-half staf f years per operating unit in just the kind of 1'7 categories I have enumerated.
18 One somehow has the impression that is not an
'l I
19 inconsequential force for the federal government to have 20 looking at each unit.
And as we talk about increases beyond 21 that level, I guess there is a fair question, you know, if 22 the kind of increases thet have been proposed in the office 23 requests are allowed under the EDO totals column, if they 24 were in my view compatible with what I see is the outcome of -
25 the review of the 1982 and'1983 budgets, why there would be ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 L
82 I less-question of this kind.
Eut since I think we just sin't 2 going to get there, I have te ask myself, now let'c see, 3 suppose I envision the seven and one-hslf NE C f olk, of when 4 something like five a re directly sitting on the urit end two 5 'a nd a one-half are11n support, and there are some 6 administrative and clerical forces included in there, is 7 that.enough to keep tra'ck on behalf of the federa?
j 8 government of an-operating unit.
And it just seems like it 9 is.
10 I don't know that I could say that the unit would 11 not.be kept better track of if the number were 10.
But I 12 also would have difficulty I think in saying that the unit 13 would not have adequate tracking being kept of it if the 14 number were, instead of seven and one-half, if it were six.
15 I think if the number were, you know, 0.5, I would say not 16 good enough. And I suppose one or two stretches pretty 17 thin.
But once we get to numbers like 5, 6,
7, et cetera, I 18 wonder if that isn't a sufficient force to k eep pretty 19 tolerable track of it.
And the question is, well, if it is 20 or a t least at first blush or one's intuition suggests it 21 is, what is there about the way in which we have the seven 22 and one-half staff years organized at the present time which' 23 makes it necessary to increase it in future years?
24 -
I don't know.
I don't know that.I have any clear 25 questions to ask, you see.
But I'think we come now'and we 7
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-1345
-_ -.. _.-.. _..- _-.. - - - - -. _ -. _.,..-. - - - - - - - - _.-~- _.., -
P
- i g3p s..
I have been'borderin; for the last several years en this 2 point, I think we have core down now to a place where we 3 have to face fairly fundamental questions about whether the 4 current configurations of the crganiration yields ur a sort 5 of optimum regulatory ting for the buck.
I must say that 6 one of the things that does occur, as the various regulatory 7 responsibilitics are divided up into a number of offices and 8 the number of offices into various regione and subgroups and 9 so on, is that each of these jurisdictions in a p'erfectly 10 natural and reasonable and inevitable effort to convince 11 itself and its peers and reviewers that it is fulfilling its 12 mand ate adqua tely, it strives for a greater resource and 13 grea ter reach and detail.
And it may just be that the sum 14 in aggregate of, as I say, the natural and reasonable 15 responses of the separate jurisdictions in sum becomes nore 16 than the system is capable of providing.
I'7 Now how we shake all of this out in a couple of 18 weeks I will be damned if I know, but it seems to me that we 19 g o t some substantial problems there.
I just don't see a 20 hope of coming home with the sort of resources that the EDO 21 Lotal yields for I E E and let alone that plus the office 22 RECL A! A.
And I think we need a way to attack the 23 contraction process in a reasonable way over the next days.
24 It is not co lear to me how one does that.
25 CHAIEMAN AHEAENE:
That is one I asked Vic to see ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
__.-.a
L..
84 1 how the 990-would apply.
2' COMMISSICNER HENDRIE:
I think it is a useful 3 exercise because I think rather than sit over here and say 4 don't do this or don't do that or do those t nings l ut' with 5 reduced numbers and so on, the best thing to do is to ask 6 the people tha t have to struggle with it what is the best 7 way.
i-8 MR. DIRCKS:
Because we got up this mountain 9 because we built on what the Commission basically r, aid they 10 wanted.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I don't think any of us are r
12 saying that IC E ballooned up their requirements.
We 13 throughout a year list a variety cf rules and regulations.
i-14 And we say, all right, that looks like a good, solid thing
(
E 15 to do and, yes, we trill require to put that out-as a rule.
16 and we will require to put this on as a regulation.
And as 17 the result uach ti me there is an extra thing that has to be 18 a d d e d.
).
19 MR. DIRCKS:
I don't mean to say to tell us 20 specifically how you want us to go down, but on the other o
21 hand, if you want us to go back down to 990, anythir.c is up s
l-22 for grabs then.
i 23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is my request, my personal s
24 requ est.
In other-words, what I am saying is if 990 is what 25 I C E had to live with, what are the changes't ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
u, 85 l
ME. DIECKS:
So there are no special initiatives I
2 that we need te keep in the budget?
3 CDhMISSIONEE HENDEIE:
I think the general 4
~
objective is quite clear thtt you are trying te do your best 5 to audit for safety measures and the conformance to the 6 license conditions cf the licensees.
7 CHAIEXAN AHEAENE:
That is really based more on my 8 guess.
We will be 1trky if we get out of the Congress the 9 920.
And tha t would still be an a ddi tion al going in with 7C 10 m o r e.
Joe, do you have any questions?
11 COMEISSIONER HENDEIE:
No.
12 CHAIEEAN AHEAENE:
Peter?
13 COMMISSIONER EEADFORD:
Let me ask you about a 14 couple of those areas that the Commission has helped to pump 15 up in the past.
let me be sure I understand how they stand 16 n o w.
First of all, with regard to quality assurance, on the 17 one hand you got the concerns that have arisen out of those 18 four or five projects that you centioned.
On the other 19 hand, you also have through the Action Plan various 20 Commission commitments to expand th e Q A list and go into 21 more detail on what needs to be done.
22 Are there in the budget as you have it now the 23 dollars to do those things?
l 24 ME. STELLO:
Yes.
l 25 COM ISSIONEE BEADFORD:
Where does one find the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345 A
86
)
4
~
I dollars?
-2 ER. STELLCs For us?
3 COM ISSIONEE BRADFORD:
Yes.
4
- v. R. STELLO:
The piece of it te go and de what 5 specific part?
You would have to give ne either a task 6 action plan number or -- that is a very broad quertion and 7 the answer is it is scattered everywhere.
.8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Let me start then with the 9 one I don't think is directed in the action plan, and that 10 is the need for improving the OA.
11 MR. STELLO:
Okay.
I don't know if you were here 12 wh en I started.
I said there was one area that 7 felt in 13 reviewing and getting ready that I don't think we did a good
'[
f
's 14 enough job of looking at this, and that was the need to.get 15 better into the QA.
And I indicated that about another 8 to 16 10 positions woulc ne needed to really go in and take a hard i
17 look at the QA carly in construction.
That part of it is l
i
[
18 no t in anywhere.
It was missed.
i 19 COEMISSIOKEE BRADFORD:
I did miss that.
20 MR. STELLO:
I suggested to the Chairman perhaps
(
21 he would want to add those resources to our budget.
22 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
It is entirely possible.
I 23 would just have to find other places to take it away.
24 COM ISSIONER BRADFORD:
The other items are i
i 25 basically relatively small I.E E manpower, the action plan 1
P I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
--_n,
---._.== - ~ ~.
.n.=--
-,, -- ~.n oa
s....
)
87 e 0- -
1 tasks, whatever.they are, 1-F-1, 1-F-2.
Eut presumably is 2 3t the end of that process there is in f act an expanded CA 3 list'and expanded set of things that you have to inspect-4 against, I would guess that would show up on an FY 19E3?
5 MR. STEILO:
And probably even later until it is 6 all' done.
I think the way the Task Action Plan would likely 7 go, I am not certain, but I don't even think that was 8 scheduled to get started until about 1962 or 1983.
I would 9 have to go back and check specifically.
10 COXMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Of course the other.
11 problem there is we are still toying with whether we ought 12 to add some part o.? that to the unresolved safety issue 13 question, and then that in turn may have an impact on the
'f I
's 14 schedule.
But I take it even the FY 1963' budget, as you 15 have it now, does not reflect the consequences of any g
16 substantial additional inspection effort that would be 17 needed?
S U
l 18 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
19 COE!:ISSIONEE BR ADFORD:
I don't know whether this 20 is-f or you or Bill, but what is the status of the 21 radiographers certification question and the alternatives t.o 22 that study?
Have we got a review of this coming up?
l 23 MR. DIRCKS:
You have a paper down here pointing 24 ou t some options.
Some of them are a rranged from taking l
25 over and doing certification directly, some of it ranges ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINL\\ AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C: 20024 (202) 554-2346
__ _.---._ _____._..~ _..~.____._ _ ___,. _ _ _ _.___ _J
l i
[
88 I from doing work with the states.
I think there is somelody i
i 2 scheduled to come down and discuss it with the Commission, 3 _but the' paper is there.-
I i
4 CDdEISSIDSER EEA0 FORD:
Anc if we chese to certify?
5 R. DIBCKS:
If you chose to certif y, using the 6 current traditional NEC methods, that would require 7 certifying or vriting certifications and inspecting against E
8 such-certifications.
That is why we left it as a point we 9 would like to get some idea on.
10 CHAIRZAN AHEARNE:
I think the question is what 11 assumption is it based on?
2 12 COMEISSIONEE ERADFCED:
I assume radiographer is 13 no t in here?
In what year would that begin to have an 14 impact on if we chose to do that in?
4 15 MR. DIRCKS:
By the time you get the procram set i
16 up I think it would be late 1982 or 1983.
i 17 MR. BLAHA:
We have two million.
18 CDM ISSIONER ERACFCED:
Is that just for improved
[
19 radiogra pher saf ety or does that specifically contemplate 20 certification ?
l 3
21 MR. BLAHA:
What was in the program, the 22 certification program, the two million and one staff person.
l 23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
So it does assume a 24 certification program f or 19 63 ?
r 25 HR. BLAHA:
Funding it through contracts.
.)
LOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
- S.W., WASHINtsTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
__ _ __ J m_.__.._._________.
_m.
89 1-ER. DIRCES:
liMSS put it in there.-
It is at least 2 getting it started.
Eut it certainly doesn't look-to a
?
3 f ull-blown radiographer certification because-that would 4 have impact directly on I C E.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That'is what I was askin; l-6 here.
l 7
MR. DIRCKS:
I don't think it is in your budget.
j 8
MR. SNICZEK:
It is not specifically in our budget 9 request.
However, I should point out there is a slight 10 amount of additional effort in radiography with site 11 inspection work and very little of it at this time.
12 COMMISSIONER ERADFORD:
Lastly on the vendor.
L 13 program, if you don't in fact have resident vendor i
[
14 inspections, do you have other things in the works that l
l 15 would in f act upgrade the vendor inspection?
l 16 MR. STELLO:
Well, we have the vendor inspection i
l'7 prog r a m.
The recent experiences in Part 21 suggest thet we 18 are going to have to find.a way to go in and do norm in that 19 a r ea, which will have a benefit.
These are the only two 20 programs tha t we have to deal with.
21 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
But in fact with regard to 22 Pa rt 21 what more will you do if you don 't have the five l
23 peopla in the vendor inspection resident program?
i 24 MR. STELLO:
With the current resources wa are i !.)
25 going to crank up and take a harder look at Part 21 across f
k ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
- s gn L
I th'e board.
The recent' experiences that we have had both 2 with E5F and Wertinghouse have persuaded me that we are far 3 from where we cught to be in. cur progrcm.
4 COSETESIO!;EE EP ADFOED:
That was my conclusion 5 also but what does cranking up within the current resources 6 entail?
What I gathered was that you had originally hoped 7 to have nore people to put en this and are in f act not 8 pursuing that p a r ti cul a r ', t e c..
So what I am wonderinc is 9 what does that leave you doing?
What does crankinc up 10 have?
Does it have a specific component to it?
11 ER. STELLO:
That just means we are going to de 12 f ewer of other kinds of inspections in the vendor program 13 and divert those resources into Part 21.
e i
14 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:-
How many people do you have 15 today?
16 MR. STELLO:
Twenty-two.
17 CO EISSIOFEI: 5RADFORD:
So it is a redirection of
[
18 those people?
l 19 CHAIRhAN AHEARNE:
How many people?
l..
ER. DONNELLY:
Professional man-years and total 20 i
f 21 man-years.
I 22 CO EISSIONER BRADFORD:
What you are talking about I'
23 then is basically a redirection of the vendor program more l
l
. 24 into the Part 21 area?
25 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
All ri gh t.
You hr.ve a list of 1
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
- 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
r.:
]
4.
'i 91
.i 1. questions that have.been laid on you.
2
%P. STELLC:
When do you need t hos e ?-
3 CEAIEEAN'AHEAEFE:
Well, if we.are ocing to make' a-4 markup based on knowledge, then I think we occht to have it 5 by Friday..We will go up and make'a markup anyway.
So ~ it -
)
6 all depends on what you want to base it on.
What I would
.7 like.to do is now close this meeting.
We will-take five.
8 minutes, no, ten minutes, and then go-back to the open 9 meeting.
10 (Whereupon,-at 12:00 p.m.
the closed session was 11 adjourned.)
12 13 I
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 '
.q, 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 l202)564 2346
___y__-
.._u_,
_..,m,
___.z_,_
6 r
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the
/
COMMISSION MEETING in the matter of: CLOSED MEETING -- BUDGET PRESENTATIONS -- (I&E)
Date of Proceeding:
Julv 21, 1980 Docket flumber :
Place of Proceeding: Washington, D. C.
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Commission.
Joan Gill Official Reporter (Typed)
/
l
(
fl
\\
Ob f )w dff1 ial Reporter (Signature) e (s
I 4
i
---,w,
_ _ = - -
u _-.,: - z --
a -- = u __z,
_____--_--,_.--n.~
-