ML20033C381
| ML20033C381 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/18/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8112030068 | |
| Download: ML20033C381 (77) | |
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UNITED STATES d
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8' NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION WASHlfv GTON,0.C. 20555 g
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CFFICE OF THE h %y g 8
SECRETARY i
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I Nf COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC LOSURE UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE AC (
f Transcript of Office of Nuclear Re ctor i
Regulation Budget Presentation
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July 22, 1980 9
9 Pursuant to 10 CFR 9.108 (c) and 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (9) (B), the Commission has determined that the attached portions of the j
subject transcript should be released to the public.
The i
remaining portions of the transcript are being withheld from i
i public disclosure pursuant to 10 CFR 9.104 as noted below.
9 Pace /Line thru Page/Line Exemption g
10/24 11/24 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (9) (B) i i
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ffice of the Secretary
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NUCLEAR FIGULATORY COMMISSICN r
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COMMISSION MEETING l
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BUDGET PRESbNTATIONS t
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CLOSED MEETING 6
0FFICE OF NUCLEAR REACTOR EEGULATION 7
EUDGET PRESENTATIONS 8
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13 Nuclear R'egulatory Commission-14
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19 Tuesday, July 22,-19a0 l
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20 The Commssion met, pursuant to notice,.at 2:13 p.m.
i 21 BEFORE:
22 JOHN F.
AHEARNE, Chairman of the Commission 23 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner
!g 24 PETER A.
ERADFORD, Comnmissioner
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25 JOSEPH E. HENDRIE, Commissioner i:
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EISENHUT 7-S. HANAUE3-8 N,
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MIRAGLIA 10-S.
J. GLICK, Fecretary 11 L..BAREY, Comptroller 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
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CHAIRMAN AMEARNE:
Since we kept [ou guys vaiting,
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3 I will dispense with the usual pleasantries in the -becinnino 4'and just get to it.
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5 MR. DIRCNS:
You are-not goinc to talk about the 6 need to cut the liberal EDO mark?
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I'am glad you finally realized 8 it, 9
F.
DIROKS:
That is what I tell everyone.
That 10 is the theme of the day.
11 COE!ISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
Now that you are 12 through with Santa Claus, Dirks, let's settle down and talk 13 and be serious.
(
14 (General laughter.)
]
15 MR. DENTON:
I am glad you feel that way, because 16 that is exactly'what we have been doing.
I asked the staff I'7 for the 1982-83 sort of budget.
They came in with a staff l
l 18 estimate asking for about 800 people and T40 million.
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19 said, no vay.
We are going-to make every effort to live 20 with the PPPG fiscal guidance.
We think we are within the 21 guidance, if interpreted properly for 1982.
22 (General laughter.)
23.
MR. DENTON:
By interpreted properly, I mean some 24 things that ~ were budgeted in some other organizational unit 25 and then shifted over to us.
I-think they have to be u
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1 accounted.for-somewhere._ I will go through that in some-
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4 3
I have a lot of information, some of which you may
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4 not have seen before, so I will try to just flash a few 5 slides further down in the presentatior. to back up the 6 comments.
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(Slide.)
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MR. DENTOh:
Easically, the 19E2 end 1983 are 9 tran sition budgets.
They recognize the changes in our 10 regulatory framework.
We are going from a deterministic 11 view to a probabilistic basis to supplement that.
We 12 probably will still be short, short of some some skills in 13
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1982, even with our best recruiting efforts.
14 CHAIEEAN AEEARNE:
Does that mean you will be 15 short of some meeting the 720 or you will be short some 16 skills in that 7207 17 MR. DENTON:
We think we will be short of some-18 skills, mainly in Hanauer's area.
19 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
Does that mean you are not' 20 going after the right people?
21 MR. DENTON:
You can't get them, and I have a 22 slide later on that shows our recruiting. efforts.
We seem 23 to be doing all right in the engineering review and the 24 safety technology area, but Steve, do you want to just 25 comment here about our forecast for being up to ceiling in ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA WE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C, 20024 (202)554-2345 w.....-_-.---.
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HE. MANAUEE:
It is difficult to say.
We have had 3 only a few months. recruiting.
The human facters types seer 4 to be avillabic.
Some of the other hur.an f actorr 5 disciplines are showing some difficulty.
Our biggest 6 difficulty has been in recruiting opera ting license 7. examiners.
There is already a serious shortfall to our 8 ~ present ceiling, and we are having very poor recruiting 9 results.
10 We are findinc qualified candidates, but they arc 11 not taking the jobs.
There is some hope that 12 regionaliration and the ability to live somewhere besides 13 Washington will help tha t.
We are going to propese a pilot
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14 program on that.
15 ME. DEFTOK Overall, I am about at 6cu today 16 against my eiling of 720.
I have 30 offers out.-
I have 17 about 30 acceptances.
So, if we have no attrition even with 18 the best acceptances and all the effers being accepted, I am 19 still some 20 slots or so below this year's ceiling.
20 While we are running, we are also 1,osing people.
21 Half the people I have lost this. year have been to internal 22 NRC positions.
The other half has been for other reasons.
23 It is hard to gain in these critical areas.
24 CHAIR AN AHEAENE:
I think you have to realire 25 when you have a large organiration recruiting is a constant ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 responsibility and ~ it does net.just have a reason that-you.
- 2. recruit hard and then you stop.
It is just going to 3 constantly be.
4 P.P., DENTOS
. At the moment, we are basically 5 limited by the freeze.
We have offers stacked up ready to go.
If people -- basically, 1982 was our first budget 6
7 attempt to put the PPPG guidance into an operating plan.
We 8 attempted to meet the people guidance.
We are meeting the 9 peop3e guidance in 1982.
We want to ' talk about the fiscal 10 guidance and why I think the mark that was generated in 11 January of this year really does not apply in some details 12 and why we are over the mark in fiscal gu.Ldance,-cnd I will 13 talk about 1963 in some detail also.
14 19 6 3 is th e ye ar o f th e bud ge t that we ree as more 15 fully responsive to the PPPG, and it really embod.ies the 16 action plan items into our budget.
17 Let me have slide 2A.
18 (Slide.)
19 MP.. DENTON:
Just to show you what some.of the 20 action plan starts are in 1982, I ha ve a few slides that are 21 not in your handout that are back up, just to show you the 22 number of things that are deferred for the 1982 start that 23 we. rill be taking up then.
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24 On Slide 3, we have also followed very closely the
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25 pFPG guidance.
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1 (Slide.)
2 MR. DENTON:-
I won't walk you through you own-
- r; 3 -guidance, but just to show you the ones we think appl y - t o
~4 -this prograt, the one about greater presence at major plants-5 is T I-related for us.
6 The next slide, Number u,
also shows further PPPG 7 guidance that we think applies to our program.
8 (Slide.)
9-MR. DENTON:
Fins 11y, the next slide, Nunber 5, is 10 sort of'all-preparatory here.
It shows the cross-cut 11 between previous decision units and the decision units'in 12 this year's budget.
13 (Slidc.)
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1-4 MR. DENTON:
The previous ones were shown down the 15 column on the left.
We now have a budget that is based 16 along the headings along the top, and this shows how to get 17 between the previous years and this year's budgets.
18 With that background, let's go to Slide Number 6.
19 (Slide.)
20 MR. DENTON:
We are not reclaming the EDO ma rk.
21 We are within the FPPG guidance on the 735 people.
We are 22 over the PPPG guidance in 1983.
The way we put the budget 23 together was this way.
Let's assume we are not going to get 24
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any more than 735.
We are having recruitment problems v
25 anyway.
.We were just given 100.
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It is not the time to go asking fer still more 2 people'when you can't even get ther this year.
ict's take-g 3 that as a given.
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4 Then we icohed at the money that was needed, and I
5 we found that we needed money in several areas.
One was 6 that we needed money for the requalification exams of 7 operators, and we had to hire that job out.
That was the 8 C u
n th t me up wi th the a n ua ry mark We-i-
l-5 needed money for data processing that had previously been in l
10 the administrative sideHof the budget.
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11 Ws need about $1 million to initiate some of the 12 TMI action plans that we did not think had been forecast at 13 the ti;e the mark was put together.
If you add'all these i7 l
14 up, these come out to be the total emount of money that we 15 are over the fiscal guidance in 1982.
16 Then, for two reasons, we think we need to extend-f 17 the lab loaner program a bit in 1982, and pay for that.
We l
18 don't need the full lab loaner program but in view of the I
19 fact we are not able to recruit some of these critical-l 20 skills, there is.a good chance when 1982 rolls around, we j
21 -will still be short here and there.
22 I could use those same skills out of our safety i
22 and technology unit to supplement case work or operating f
24 items, but I really do not want them there.
I'vant them 25 impipmenting the TF.I action plan.
So, in order to get off t
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t g-1 to a full start in 1952 with these TMI' actions, I want the a
1 2 flexibility of retaining the' lab loaner plan at.-a' reduced j
3 ' level' to-fill thos'e skills so I can meet the case work 4 obligations and get off to a good start.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Is there a place in your 6 discussion where you address that, or do you want to put.it s
7 on now?
I 8
ER. DEETON:
Phat this gives you.is kind of 9 background.
Then, in 1983 is where we budgeted, and we were 10 over the mark in people, but that is people we think that it
.j 11 takes to do -- to continue tne iobs that we sta rt ed in;19E2, j
12 by the technique of having the lab loaner procrar pick up 13 some slack while we got the TM! action started.
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14 In 1983, we are fully in. comport with-the guidance 15 of the PPPG.
However, we are over o'n the ma rk.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
How many people are you-17 proposing on the lab loaner, 44 people?
18 MR.
IRAGLIA:
That is correct.
19 CHAIEMAN AHEAENE:
Which just happens to track 20 with the 44 extra people in 1983.
21 MR. DENT 054 We picked about half the lab loaner 22 program..It has no direct relation to the 44 What we look 23 at there is like 13 more people in designated generic y
24 issues, f our more people in operating experience evaluetion,
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1 in regulatory and research coordination and cuidance, and-2 they are the people that we free up in 1982 by using the lah 3 program to make sure we have both things on track, whereas 4 in 1983 we drop the lab'prograt altogether snd ;ick these up 5 in our budget.
6 The next slide, 6A, shows just a bit of our 7 recruitment history.
8 (Slide.)
[This is ever the l
9 ME. DENTON:
past 1E nonths.
It 10 'is true we went for about a year in'a lull where we were not 11 devoting much attention to recruiting, and this is the
- 12. actual on-board strength as of' the end of this month, and as 13 I mentioned, there is the possibility of 60 more, dependito-14 on acceptances.
15 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
When you are estinating the l
16 need for this additional 44 in 1982 by funding through the
~17 lab loaner, what do you have as your assumption that l
l-18 on-board NER strength will be?
19 ME. DENTON:
It will be at strength.
20 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
You assume you will be at the, I.
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i 22 MR. LENTON:
Yes.
Well, I assume that, but I just L
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'COM !ESIOKER HENDP.TE:
Yes,.cuide fror, the
's - 2 inevitable inaccuracies-having to do with however'lonc it 3 takes to train people and get them fully effective and what.
4 'w..ti~m e they come en toard, th+ fraction of the year, all the 5 rest.of those great things.
6 hvE. DENTON:
If they were all interchangeable
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,1 people, 1t wodld be an easy mark to'make, but they a ren 't.
7 8 That is what gives us problems.
I am over right now in 9 engineering, for example.
I have more engineers than I m,
10 n etid e C beEa u se t h e y accepted at the time when --
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,.CEAIEHAN AE ARNE:
Eaybe we can nake a trade with E
12 the.gend,rd1 c6unsel's office.
.a 13 (General laughter.)
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14 R.
DENTON:
The next slide, 7,
goes tc the dollar 1
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15 mark.
16 (Slide.)
17 ME. DENTON:
And it shows where we are over the 18 FPPG guidance in dollar requests, let me ask Frank-l 19 Maraglia, who is with me and did most of the. work of putting t
20 this budget together, to just run through that for you, why 21 we are over, and why in our view this is appropriate, since 22 we did not think it was considered at the tine the1 mark was B
23 put together.
24 Y.R. ?,jIR AGLI A:
- As Mr. Denton has indicated, we s
k 25 approach the budget f rom the point of view.of accepting the
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t3 1 735 number as the tasis for the foreclation of the 1962 2 request.
Upon doing that and looking at the procrem support e
3 mark of T26 million, we felt tha t in the formulation of that 4 mark there were several things that occurred since that'rark 5 was developed that perhaps was not appropriately considered 6 and would hear on the fact that perhaps the mark should be 7 higher for our office and our needs.
8 In particular, within the operator licensing 9 decision unit, there were the requirements to issue and L
10 perf ore annual regualification of operators.
It turns cut i
11 to be a very labor-intensive or dollar-intensive effort.
'12 Realist $cally speaking, it was nct something that we cculd 13 staff to to fulfill the needs to do the annual i'
14 requalification exams.
15 As Dr. Hanauer has pointed out, we program l
l 16 dollars, and that represents T3.4 million that we feel.was i
17 not considered in the formulation of the T26 tillion' mark.
l 18 Within the case work decision unit, there is a number of ADP 19 costs, automatic da ta processing costs that previously and l
t 20 traditionally in previous budgets were funded by request l
21 from NRR to admin and were shown in the administration's --
22 Office of Administration's budget.
23 In conf ormance with the 1982 budge t call, there 24 were certain guidelines presented that indicated that i;.
25 certain types of-ADF costs should be funded out of the ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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o 14 1 prograr support follars allotted to.the office.
That 2 represents $1.7 million.
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3' CHAIPPAN AEEAENE:
Did - tha t Does that represent 4.anything otner than accounting allocation?
In there an 5 actual control transfer that goes along with that?
6 ER. KIEAGLIA:
This $1.7 million would actually be 7 tech assistance money given to NER for us to manage and
- 8. administer before it would be given to admin, and we would 9 make the request to admin for a funding of those.
10 CHAIREAN AHEAENE:
There really is a subrtantial 11 difference.
12 gg, 31gA;tIA:
yes, sir, 13 Mh. BAREY:
We took the money out of program 1-4 support, becaure it relates directly to some of their 15 projects.
It gave them a margin.
16 MR. MIEAGLIA:
That T1.7 million was based on 17 historical.
It does not reflect increased needs at ADP 18 work, because of new activities, such as -- caured ty' TEI, 19 the action plan and things of that nature.
20 In addition, in order to meet the FPPG guidance 21 for rescurces and people we restricted growth in the saf ety 22 technology decision unit, yet the guidance itself, not the 23 number guidance, but the word " guidance" indicates increased
- 24. activities and initiatives in areas such as risk assessment, 25 systematic review of the regulatory process, and things of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 L
15 1 this nature.
2 Since we could not show growth with people, we 3 felt that $1.2 million would get certain initiatives started 4 in 19E2, and that rerresents the bulk of our request.
5
.On top of that, we said that since some inportant 6 initiatives in the safety technology decision unit were 7 essentially being deferred to 1983 -- we are not showing the 8 growth we really need until fiscal year 1953 -- we deferred 9 those programs for a year in order to be responsive to the 10 policy guidance, sayinc, if the lah loaner program, lab 11 assistance program is funded at about 50 percent of the 1991 12 funding, that this would give us the ability to utilize 13 free up in-house resourcos, use the lab loaner program, 14 which we intitiated in 1980 and hope to continue in 1981.
15 Hopefully, efficiencies will be built into,that 16 program, and we have an available resource to do those kind s l'7 of ef forts related to the of fice's work.
Free up the l
l 18 in-house resources so we can get them trained in the risk 19 assessment nethodologies, and things of this nature, so we 20 can get that kind of disicpline and those kinds of skills 21 developed in-house, meaning in NER, not having to go outside 22 and fund those kinds of activities.
23 If we have the flexibility with the lab assistance 24 program to do that, we could free up resources, and E essentially be applying the growth in the safety technolocy It' ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
16 1 decision unit tnat we deferred, mitigcting the deferral of.
2 those activitics to 1963, plus, in view of our previou 3 history with respect to getting to ceiling and perhaps even 4
having certain identified critical skill areas in short 5 supply.
6 This would also provide us the flexitility to 7 respond to that kind of activity, and that explains the and al'o shows why the 8 dollar totals, both in 1982 and 1963, s
9 people number rose from 1992 to 1982, because the lab loaner 10 is terminated.
11
!G. DENTON:
We will go into each of these units l
12 in more detail, but that is the big overview.
I really see 13 the lab loaner program continuation being both. It is a l
l 14 little bit of protection against not being able to hire up l
15 with respect to the right skills.
It also will make sure l
16 that the safety technology innovative group has enough I
17 people innovating and tryinc to improve the process as i
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18 opposed te ha ving to work on case work.
19 This tudget is committed to trying to meet those l
20 schedules that we gave the House in 1962 and 1983 and 1994 21 It has the resources committed there.
It only has one 22 man-year per case more than we had pre-TEI.
We are biting 23 off a big assumption that we can rationalize the process
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24 down and keep that from expanding one man-year per case.
25 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Now, do you assume that this ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 -
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17-l 1 introduction or decreased.use of the ;robabilistic approach
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l 2 is going to have any impact on the man-years per case in l'
3 19e37 4
': E. DINTON:
I am going to cover that a bit when I 5 get to the SEP in detail.
6 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE:
You will increase it.
I 7 propose that as a general rule.
Every ' advance I - have ever 8 heard about or participated in increases the manpower.
9 (General laughter.)
10 MB. DENTON:
We are looking at this right now.
It l
l 11 is just like Commissioner Hendrie says at the moment.
If we l
12 do a risk assessment for plant, and it is a high risk plant 13 for some reason, it either has the probability of core l
14 meltdown or high consequences.
We do more on that plant.
15 Now we are facing right now a plant, Big Rock l
l 16 Point, which is low power level, low population density.
If 17 we do a risk arressment, and they are doing one, 18 incidentally, it will turn out to be maybe 1,000th the risk 19 of the average plant, just to pick a number.
I don't know 20 where it will turn out to be, but it will be quite low.
l 21 COMMISSIONEE HENDRIE:
Will we have the courage to i
22 back down what we do on the plant?
The answer will be, I i
23 vill bet y o 'J a cookie, no l
24 R.
DENTON:
The company is asking relief from i
25 various T5I a ction plans, saying we are low risk, and we ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 Vlf.GINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 l
is l~ nave not squarely f aced -tha t issue. Do we let them cet by 2 with a less well technical support center, a little less 3-well energency planning?
Unless we are careful --
4 COMEISSIONEE GILINSKY:
k' hen you say rirk, you 5 mean overall ri sk ?
6 MR. DENTON:
Yes. So we have not decided what to 7 do when a risk assessment shows way below the normal plan.
8 COMMISSIONEE HENDRIE:
It is a little bitty 9 machine,'so you know you just --
10 COM ISSIONER GILISSKY:
I was going to run back to 11 your argument on Indian Point.
12 (General laughter.)
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
At Big Eock Point, it is 14 the big risk 15 (General laughter.)
16 MR. DENTON:
That will cause us to face tha t l'7 ques' on.
18 CHAIE AN AHEARNE:
You and I would be willing.to 19 let them back down, right?
20 (General laughter.)
21 ME. DENTON:
I am afraid the way the process works 22 is that when I go to try -
if I were to request an 23 exemption for some TMI-related action because of low risk, 24 the societal argument would lose its appeal for some people 25 living around Big Rock Point.
, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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COXMISSIOSEE GILINSKY It would sugoest it would 2 be useful for us to comment to you on how much wcight we put 3 : on.the individual risk and how much we put on societal risk.
4 CCX!ISSIONEE HENDRII:
Yes, and if you find.a 5 plant which, for instancc, because of just small size, seems 6 to present markedly lower overall risk, how far-down are you 7 willing to back the basic rafety level in. terms of what it 8 means to one individual?
Th a t i s --
9 COEMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It is the opposite part of 10.th e Indian Point problem.
11 COMEISSIONEE HENDRIEs It is -- You have limits 12 that are reasonable both on the up side and the d own side.
13 One turns out to be the thing that is important for 14 individual, and the other that is the thing that is 15 important for society.
16 CH AIEM AN AEEAENE:
Isn't, though, there some other
~
l'7 way that you would be using the probabilistic cpproach to 18 determine at any given plant on what to spend for the effort?
19 MR. DENTON:
Yes, yes.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The long-range --
21 MP.~DENTON:
That will help us-really sort it 22 out.
The reason I am optimistic that we can meet our 1982 23 case load forecast is, I-think we can improve the process 24 along that line.
It is far enough along that I think.-the
-k 25 process can shake down.
We have to cut out some of the 1
. t,..
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gg 1 reviews ~that we'have always held' sacred, but if we suddenly 2 find we have low consequence, then we can do the cre 3 important thines.
-4' let me shew Slide 7A to show the icpact of
~5 inflation.
6 (Slide.)
7 MR. DENTON:
The actual dollars we are spending-8 are going down in constant dollars, using various escalation 9 rates.
Se, we are actually buying less out in future years 10 than we are buying in 1981.
11 Slide E then --
12 CHAISEAN AHEARNE It shows how much more 13 efficient you are.
14 (General laughter.)
15 KR. DENTON:
Slide 8 is where we actually assume 16 -- we get into the individual units themselves.
17 (Slide.)
18 MR. DENTON:
This is the unit for operating 19 reactors.
This is the Number One priority for us.
We are 20 within the PPPC mark in thir unit.
It requires that all the 4
21 old reactors be upgraded to the level of protection-22 necessary.
It assumes that the number of operating. reactors 23 will not exceed 130 by the end of 1986.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Let's see.
The end of (x
25 1986.
Is that a realistic number?
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,a.-
1 MP. DENTON:- That is from theLforecast croup under 2 Bill.
3 E.
MIRACLIA:
That is from the PFPG.
4.
COY ISSICNEE HENDEIE:
Let's see.
End of 19E6.
5 COEXISSIONEE GILINSKY:
I thought the number 6 people were throwing about for 1985 was something like 100.
7 COMMISSIONEE HENDRIEs. What did -- Let's see.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEABNE:
What you are saying is, it 9 might be too high.
10 COEMISSIONER GILINSKY It might be too high.
I 11 don't know if it af fects things one way or the other.
12 ME. EIRAGLIAs. We are presently at about 70 13 reartors, and it is almost ten per year to be licensed as a 14 rule of thumb.
l 15 COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY:
Is that a realistic number?
16 CHAIREAN AHEAENE:
I think so, but as Harold and 1'7 Frank point out, the PPPG ---
l 18 MP. MIRAGLIA:
That is the number in the-19 guidance, yes, sir.
E KE. DENTON:
That is --
21 CHAIEhAN AHEARNE:
I would like you to get to your 22 last item down there.
I was interested in how those-23 assumptions are made about the-timing and th e - rescurces that 24 are going to' affect that.
25 MR. DENTON:
All right.
i u
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1 ME. EIEAGLIA:
-E111, do you. ant to talk about 2 that?
3 MR. DIECES:
I guess he can-show you how we got 4 the number..
5 COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY:
Let's find it, e s long as 6 you are -- ar long as that is the number you came up with.
7 MR. HALLEE:
That is the ceiling.
It will not 8 exceed that amount.
9 CDM ISSIONEE GILINSKY:
What is your best guess 10 for'that?
11 ME. HALLEE:
I think the best way to answer that 12 would just to be show you the chart.
Here is the actual 17
. (~
chart.-
l 14 CH AIEh' AN AHEAENE:
There is a wide range of l
15 uncertainty.
16
%E. HALLEE:
Put for fiscal 1986, if you run the l'7 line up, you will see it comes over roughly in the 120, 130 i
18 region there.
l 19 CD5MISSIONEE GILINSKY:
That is what, the maximum l
20 line?
21 MR. HALLEE:
That is what we anticiapte will be 22 out.
Now,_ where the line is very heavy is where there is a 23 lot of uncertainty, and a lot of the schedules could slip, 24 and so forth, but we have no basis for anything other than 25 that right now.
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23 1
ME. DFNTON:
I don't think it bears,that heavily 2 on the 1982-63 part of our' budget.
i -
3 COMMISSIONEE C-ILIhSKY:
I would not think, se.
4 "h.
DEST 0r This part of the budget tha t deals
- 5. with operating actions, the number of actions we process and 6 so forth, we did assume efficiencies in this area.
The 7 labor rates, we assumed a more efficient labor rate.
We 8 assumed we were able to reduce the number of actions per 9 pla n t.
10' Let ne go down to the fact that this budget did 11 not include the Eingham assumptions, and we are manda ted to 12 provide a plan to respond to Bingham by September or so.
13 Bingham, just to remind you, required that we identify each 14 rule and regulation determined to be of particular 15 significance to public health and safety.
That wast-first.
16 And then, B,
determine the extent that ea ch operating I'7 facility complies with those regulations identified 18 previously.
19 Now, before we answer that question, let's look 20 into the SEP box'and see to what extent the SEP box may hold 21 the answer to that.
The Pha se II of the SEP program will be 22 complete in April of 1982.
It is taking about eight 23 professional man years to plan.
That had 137 years before.
24 The plan Phase III of the SEP program, which is in s
25 th e bu'd g e t, assumes two man years per plant starting.in 1962 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGtNIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345.
24 1'and to"he complete in four years.
Fo, that is the rudget 2 that we have. It is two man years per' plant for those-F9-3 other plants over h four-year period, and we had anticipated 4 that the ihace III of SEP will only cover 30 or 40 of the
- 5. topics that were covered in Phase II.
Phase II had the'137, 6 but we think only 30 or 40 of them are of ma jor 7 significance.
That is how we scaled down the manpower 8' estimate.
9 So, this budget has two man years per plant fer 59 10 plants for four years, and that would have been --
11 CHAIRMAN LHEAFNE4 That does not start until 1963.
12 ER. DENTON That starts.in mid-1982.
13 It would assume we would take four years to I[
14 complete that part of Phase III of the SEP program.
15 Now, looking at what Bingham does to that, Binghan 16 will probably involve a longer list of top;cs to be reviewed l
l 17 than we had planned, because the SEP prograr was perhara a 18 more technical risk assessment oriented one than Eingham.
19 It is hard to say what Bingh.u. will do when you have to cut l
20 it.
f 21 Our best estimate at the coment.to do Eingham on l
~
22 these 59 old plants will take about four man years per.
23 plant, so thst is roughly twice the resources.
So, if we 24 did Bingham in the same four-year period, it would add -- it 25 would just about double the SEP allocation that we have ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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25 1
budgeted, and that would Only cover the existing plants, and 2 that decision unit for the existing plants, we have abcut 32 3 people altogether.
Ihat includes overhead.
4 So, it would be atout four man years per plant to 5 do Bingham rigorously in the way it~is intended.
If that is 6 right, that almost doubles that 32 number.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is it clear that that is 8 what is intended?
9 MR. DENTON:
Well, let me ask if anyone would like 10 to speak to.Eingham.
11 Everyone is remaining silent.
We ove you a paper 12 on what is intended.
13 CDEMISSIONER HENDRIE There was consider =ble 14 d'iscussion and argument back and forth between staff and 15 Congressmen and Commissioners and so on, and I think I 16 certainly Eould not claim to be an authority on the fina?
17 form of the Sincham amendment, but my impression is there 18 was a substantial attempt on the part of the Congress to 19 recognize some of the difficulties in Unplementation of the 20 original draft language, and you know, I think to try to 21 intrepret the intent of the final statute fairly -- it is 22 not clear to me that it requires that enormous an effort.
m COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
When one talks about the 24 extent to which a plant meets a certain requirement i
(
25 MR. DENTON:
It has the word "significant" in it.
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26-1 COMEISSIONEE HENDEIE:
And vs are deternined tc
- 2. determine what'we regard-as significant.
,f 3
CD MISSIOFEE GILINSKY:
You can interpret that to 4 mean it means IFEE 1970, or it coes not meet inat, cr it 5 meets 1970 or whatever it is.
Now, another interpretation 6 is to say it was approved on the basis of IEEE somethino or 7 other from 1970.
However, they have done some extra verk, 8 and then you can take a lot of time and examine to what 9 extent it goes in the direction of the 1974 requirement.
10 Now, that takes a lot more work.
11 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
12 COM ISSIONEE GILINSKY:
And it is not clear to me 13 what effect was intended.
,{.
14' CHAIEMAN AHEAENE:
I would 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You see me taking the 16 second interpretation.
17 CHAIE5AN AHEAENE:
I would guess from'the little 18 participation I had in those ciscussions that the recond 19 interpretation, Harold's, is the correct one, because 20 certainly that was what some of us pointed out was the 21 significance of that amendment, what would happen, and.the 22 amendment was passed, and so it is consistent wit:t what they 23 were told was going to be the impact of the amendment.
24 COEEISSIONER HENDEIE:
It was not passed with the (s
25 same language it started out with..
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4 27 1
CHAIEP.AN AHEAPNE:
Still, approximately.
2 C0KMISSIONEP HENDEIE:
Er. Bingham hitself at 7
3 least got up on the floor ~and said he thought he had 4 accommodated substanticily to difficulties.
5 COMMISSIONEF BRADFORD:
You have to go back and 6.look at the. comments and the time periods.
I don't remember 7 myself.
John is right.
It is not the original Eingham 8 language that the Commission commented on in saying there 9 vere still going to be substantial time and resources 10 involved.
11 What I don't remember is whether that comment'was 12 on the language that finally became the amendment.
I-think 13 it was, but I am not sure.
( ['
14 I also need to be reminded, does the amendment in 15 its final form say just significant regulations, or does it 16 also go on to talk about Reg. Guides?
17 Mh. EATTSON:
It includes the standard review 18 plan, the Reg. Guides, unresolved saf ety issues, branch l
19 technical positions.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think it is a significant l
21 resource allocation.
22 MR. DENTON:
That is the way we tended to read it.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think'what you are seying is 24 that if four years would-be allowed to do it,1you would 25 expect somewhere around mid-1987 you would have to start ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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28 c..
1 picking up an additional 30 man years.
2
- 55. DENTON:
Yes.
That would only ccver the'59
.,m 3 old ones in essence that we are doing.
We would estimate 4
maybe two man years for new cnes.
If we really wanted to 5 try to document a much better performance for all the 6 various guidances of the Commission, so then two man yearr 7 per' plant for a new plant,_so then.you add that onto the 8' existing workload for new plants, which might be 15 to 20 9 people.
10 C9AIP5AN AEEARNE:
I guess what I would like by 11 Friday if I could is what additional dollars and people yoo 12 - would need to incorporate in 1962 and 1963 in order to 13 provide the resources to do that.
I think that that ir an 14 appropriate thing to at least have.
15 gg, pgg7pg:
I will provide that.
I would 16 reiterate our current ~ best estimate thet would be if we did I'7 the Eingham on the old plants in the same four-year period, 18 we double the SEP resources, and it would be 16 to 20 man 19 years per year for those two cases.
20 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
If you could, though, provi de 21 that, because I suspect that is something the Commission has 22 to explicitly address, whether or not to incorportte that, 23 since it is a Congressional direction, and we have to do it.
24 COMMISSIONER BEADFORD:
In the -- Does there come c
25 -a time at which in'the newest plants this will be more or ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
2g re--
1 less autoratic.anyway in OL's after (L
2 MR. DENTON:
'W e intend to r.ake it that way.
The
.e
- 3. problen has always been one of, do you do it in the next 4 application.- I think with a little tire'with plants.where i
5 we have not written the SER, we can do a lot better jcb than 6 we are doing now in th a t area, and it will still require a 7 little bit of time to.get the SER format modified so the 8 inf ormation comes in.to make it clear what the applicant is 9 doing in those areas, and ma ke it easier for us to do.
10 Our objectives and planned accomplishments are 11 shown on'Page 9.
12 (Slide.)
13 MR. DENTON:
One of our goals has been to reduce i
14 the excess backlog of licensing actions to zero by the end 15 of 1984, and we are still holding to that goal.
16 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
Your current definition of 17 excess backlog?
18 MR. DENTON:
It is that backlog ever what you 19 would expect to accumulate as a minimum that you are always l
20 carrying a certain amount of in-house amendments that have 21 to be processed.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Right.
23 MR. MIRAGLIA4 Ten per reactor.
Take the number 24 of reactors and multiply by ten.
25 '
CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
I understand.that.
I was just 4
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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r 30
+-
1 trying to get the number.
2 gg, pgg73g so ve. discussed the SEI ;:r oc r a n.
3 Overall with this unit.
We are in cgreement wi th the FDC 4 mark.
I think in 19El --
5 EE. MIEAGLIA:
It will be 670 in 1962.
6 MF. DENTONs let r.e show Chart 9A to show a bit 7 about the operating actions in more detail.'
8 (Slide.)
9 MR. DENTON:
This shows the work load summary in 10 this' decision unit, and if you look in 1950, we estimate 11 about 2,100 a ctions will be necessary.
We have completed 12 about 1,500 actions this fiscal year up through June from 13 last October, so de are fairly much on target in terms of 14 processing operating actions.
15 This just shows you every time we adopt a new rule 16 or we get a recommendation from anybody else that has input l
L 17 to us, and it results in changes in the plan, it results in 18 an a ction gn all plants.
19 So, this becomes a large effort to turn every 20 action into a change in a pl an t.
Change a tech spec, 21 whwtever it takes.
So, you can see our year end backlog is 22 growing. f or a while as we tend to lay on more and more of 23 the TMI actions.
The number we are processing is up quite a-24 bit.-
f1 25 CHAIP!AN AHEARNE:
Just as ir rule of thumb, of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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31 l~ these actions, how many would rise to what you would say are 2 - saf ety significtnce?
3 EP. FIEAGLIA:
Fequiring hearingr, you rean?
4 CH AI.:M AN AEEAENE:
I an arking rort of engineering 5 judgment.
6 P. R. DENTON:
We have cone through one time and 7 tried to se;regate them into various categories.
I think ve l
l 8 found 400 or 500 that we considered merely administrative, 9 and therefore would be handled outside this complicated 10 framework.
There are some like poor reloads that don't add l
[
11 anything to safety, only because of economics.
They want to 12 l
change the core design.
13 Therefore, we have to re-review the core again.
l N 14 So,. core reloads in a sense, it is important that we look at 15 them, but maybe there is a way that we can only look at one 16 year, or one per year per vendor, or something, and get a
17 rid of those.
18 l
We are always trying to find ways to catecerize r
19 them.
What we have done recently is put Zion and Indian 20 Point, the high density sites -- Let me ask Darryl at the l
21 same time to think about it.
I 22 (General laughter.)
23 ER. EISENHUT:
We have broken them down into
' 24 different ways.
Probably.well over half or two-thirds g
25 really need that kind of work.
Out of the number that you f
i e
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32
~
1 may have in-house at any'one time, there ic probably c00 or 2 500 that are strf;tly a dministra tive.
Most of the 3 administrative ones we have already. picked up a lot this 4
year.
We have cleaned a lot cf them up.
There ir probebly 5 another -- I think it is running somewhere on the order of~
6 four or five per plant, where plants need amendrent changes 7 just to keep'the plant operating.
No real improvement.
8 So, it ir five per plant.
So you can see we can 9 count maybe 1,000.
The rest of them are all safety 10 significance.
The rest of them are requirements the NFC has 11 laid on.
12 MR. DENTOK:. Slide 9C breaks them out a littic tit 13 differently also.
This is the inventory of all the 14 outstanding actions as of June 30, and it shows you which 15 ones go to power reactors, which ones are really unique to 16 plants.
It is that generic plan that no doubt falls out of 17 the action we are taking.
18 I think I have probably covered the SEP program in 19 sufficient depth, unless you want to go back to that in some 20 detail.
Maybe Page 9 would just be a good one to show on 21 the accomplishments of the Phase II program.
22 (Slide.)
23 MR. DENTON:
We have completed over-500 safety 24 evaluations now on particular topics that were selected for
((
25 the SEP plan.
We have done a lot of work on earthquake ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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L 33 1 spector revicvs in' plants, and in pipe break, and other 2
areas.
This prograc is due to be ccmpleted in F.pril cf 3 1982, and-Eingham -- it was not clear, depending on how we 4
res Eingham.
come of this will have to be redene also, 5 whether or not 137 that we picked, do they corport with the 6 language of the amendment or not.
7 These plants, they are a lot rioser to comporting.
8 with Eingham than our planned Phase III program was.
I 9
COEMISSIONER GILIN SKY I am certainly not an 10 expert on the Bingham amendment, the interpretations, but it 11 seems to me, at least I thought the sense of it war, which' 12 issues do all of these plants or requirements or positions l
l 13 or whatever -- which do these plants satisfy in the sense i
(
j 14 that they were a pproved on the basis of those positions or-l-
15 regulations or whatever?
And I did not interpret it as --
L l
16 well, at least it is not clear to me that it calls for~an l
17 engineering evaluation, where a plant has not been approved l
18 has not met officially, you might say, a certain new 19 requirement to go back and examine -- to an engineering l
l l
20 analysis to see to what extent it meets the new requirements.
21 MR. DENTON:
That is the area which we have never 22 een able,to resolve.
Today we require three-component l
23 testing, and if they were only tested on one component --
24 COMMISSIDFER GILINSKY:
I would think the
,(-
25 presumption would be, it does not need it unless the utility ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
34 1.comes in and demonstrates that it does.
2 CHAIEMAN AHEA?NEs This is sir.iler to the. debates 3 on what we nad that would be the impact of the amendment.
4 CDh ISSIONER GILI.sSKY That ir right.
5 HE. DENTON:
We owe you a paper on the plan, and l
6 that is where we can arrive at a conclusion.
7 CH AIEM AN AHEAFNE:
Also, you need en estimate on 8 at least what would be the estimated resources if it'is as 9
you just briefly described.
10 P. DENTON:
All right.
11 Page 9G shows the present completion dates 12 scheduled in Phase II.
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
When are we coing to be l'(,
l 14 ready to get operating licenses for the POL plants?
15 MR. DENTON:
That was part of this phase here.
l 16 Let me ask Darryl to respond.
I'7 ME. EISENHUT Right after the completion date, 18 when we would be having the safety evaluation action.
I l
l 19 think there are six of those that have POL's.
.It was meant 1
20 that this evaluation would be the evaluation -- we have 21 incorporated two together.
22 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE Just so.
23 ER. EISENHUT:
That helps define the scope.
There 24 are some - things in here that you might not have included.
25 We included all that was legally necessary to do a POL i~
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.e--
35 1 re vi ew.
2 COMEIESIONER HENDFIEs And when would yet becin f-3 noticino OL --
4 Kh. EISENHUTs Early 1981, when we start running 5 into Palisades, we will laave an idea of what it looks like 6 and so forth.
7 ER. DENTON:
Also, in the operating reactor unit, 8 the emergency preparedness accomplishments.
We vill be in 3 business in 1982.
Let me finish up the operaring reacters.
10 Slide humber 10.
That shows that we do not exceed the --
11 MP. "IRAGLIA:
It was prograr area guidance with 12 respect to operator licensing actions.
This is a subpart of 13 the total operating reactor decision, and we did exceed the
~(
14 resource guidance by 16 people, and the primary reason for 15 that is to meet our goal of getting a zero backlog by 198u.
16 This is a goal we maintained in the Office of NEE throughout 17 the substantive reprogramming caused by TMI.
We still met-18 the overall NRR office --
19 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
Will most of the lab loaners co-20 into this?
21 ER. EIEAGLIA:
No, lab loaners are not related to-22. this decision unit at all.
23 ME. DENTON:
The next unit is the licensing cf 24 operators, reactor operators, and whatever personnel we
(
25 decide to license.
We have about 3,000 licensed operators
-i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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36 1
now.
Our budget assumptions here again are censistent with 2 the case load forecast, and with SECY-33 0E.
It assun hat
. 3 ve develop and administer requalification exams, 4 certification exams, and we audit training progran.r.
This-S is a bic growth area in our budget compared to the last time.
6 We assumed ef ficiencies in the way we do reviews.
7 We have also acsumed that we are not going to be able to 8 hire examiners and train them at the rate of about more than 9 ten per yea r.
So, this budget here uses money to hire up in 10 these areas until people cet actually on board, and I have 11 the detailed slides on how we developed these estimates and 12 how long it takes to do a review.
13 CEAIEMAN AHEAENE:
Can I ask why just a more 14 general question -- your description is, you are going to 15 administer the exams two to three times each year a t each 16 facility requiring four visits to each site per year.
I 17 vondered why more of the exa mination was not done if you go 18 to the regions at the regional office or here by making the 19 operators come to you as opposed to you going to the 20 operators.
21 MR. HANAUEE:
You could give the written exams 22 that way, but the examinations require proficiency 23 demonstratios at simulators where you can have real time and 24 also proficiency demonstrations in the actual control rooms, 7-(
25 and those you can give only at simulators, and in control ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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37 I
ro,ms.
2 This being the case, it also turns out thet that 3 is the place te give the written examinations.
+
4 CHAIFMAN AHEAENE:
Do you really have to do it f
5 four times a year?
6 ME. HANAUER:
No, you really don't.
Whst you-7 have, if you do, there are really three sets of 8 examinations. There is c one-time set for new riants, the 9 so-called cold exams and hot exams, and that goes with how 10 many new plants you have.
11 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
1 am talking about the issue.
12 This says you have to have four visits to each plant each 13 year.
j 14 E.
HANAUER:
Yes, these are for the new 15 operators, which is a fairly small number, and for the 16 requalification of the a v'ailable opera tors, which is a large 17 number.
The operators are on chift.
They'get trained.
18 Usually it takes four or five shifts to operate, and the 19 plants run five or six shifts, so that there is a training 20 -- a shift in training.
21 If we a= ommodated completely the plant's 22 convenience, we would therefore go five or six times a year 23 to examine those people who have been training and are now-24 ready for the examination.
The four a. year is a compromise N.1 25 so as not to let them rile up.
There are 50 to 100 requal
~
._1
~
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exams.
The written exams are-a fairly small part ticewise.
7 You simply get them all in a room and you-give them a' 8 one-day exam.
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Yes, sir.
I'te i s e a s y to give I.
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24 not-a big fair.
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Yes, but the point you are if you had to back off 9 making is, that really seems to me
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I would back off on the two.
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I believe both are very important.
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Yes, sir.
23 24 (General laughter. )
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There might be sote -- you
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,; 6 ME. HANAUEE:
If I'had to cut the resources in
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8 have the cther half of the recalls be given by the companies s
9 and audit them rather than give half way exams to all the 10 people, i
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,r3. DENTON:
With.all the emphasis on the-12 man-machine interface, we were forced to the decision that 13 that is where we did not look hard enough before.
,1 sa 14 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
Yes, I recognize that.
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These ere the
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CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
Don't lock yourself into the 21 absolute con vic tio n that one way is --
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No, sir, we are not, but we had to
- 23. m%ak.e budget numbers.
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I know, and budget. numbers are J-25 essentlally, I think, by the contractor, and then.the s
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
41 I contractor will do what we Va'nt, and I am saying, if - tha t is 2 the approach taken, then you might as well get the money in
'3 for the contractor.
You might at least make sure,that you 4 have examined carefully what approach to take with that 5 contractor.
6 MB. HANAUEE:
Yes, sir, we intend tc de th a t.
The 7 contractor is a practicality.
- de f eel it would be 8 impossible to hire the number of people to go at it.
All 9 were government employees to begin with.
10 CHAIPXAN AHEARNE:
All ri g h t.
11 (Slide.)
12 CHAIEKAN AHEARNE:
How are you going to train the l
13 contractor?
l f 14 ME. HANAUER:
We will have to set up a training l
15 program.
That vill have -- we vill use our people, but that 16 vill be a substantial fraction of the resources in the first i
17 time period.
That vill be trainin7 rather than examining.
18 It will have to be wrapped in.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
Do you see this as being a E single contractor, a group of people, individuals?
21 R. HANAUEE:
If I have to stand here and guess, I 22 would guess that no one group, no on organization can supply 23 enough people, and that the geographic spread would dictate 24 more than one.
Tha t is an especially shaky guess.
We will
'u 25 have to find out who or what organizations are availabla.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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CHAIEZAN AHEARNE:
Okay.
2 ng, p3y73; : -Slide 12 breaks down the allocation 3 of resources among the various programs within Steve's 4
crea.- You can see the replacement exams, line 2, taker a 5-lot of our resources, because that is a continuing activity.
6 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
The requalification exams.
7 MF. DENTON:
Yes, and then the bottom of that i
8 slide shows the-area that we are over the FFFG.
I would 9 like to show Slide 12A, that shows a little bi t of'our 10 budget assumptions in this area.
11 (Slide.)
f 12 ME. DENTON:
This is the number of facilities at 13 which we would have to administer hot and cold exans, and
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1-4 the number of applicants per facility in the near future,1 15 and then Slide 12C in our audit of the training' facilities 16 shows the number of-training centers that will be there to j
j 17 audit.
I think there are 15 that are growing up.
18 (511de.)
19 MR. DENTON:
So this is turning into.a major I
20 program by the time 1983, 1984 comes around.
21 ER. EIRAGLIA:
The budget only assured 12 in 1982.
22 CH AIR !! AN AHEARNE:
When you.say you are coing to 23 give the people the requalification-tests at the simulators, 24 I a s s u m e 11. many of the cases these are where the-simulators k
25 are located.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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a 43 1
"R.
HANAUEE:
About 20 percent of the plants have
- 2 simulaterr at the plants.
Eighty percent have te go to a 3 _ simulator.
There are some problems with this, because the 4 simulater centers do not exactly simulate the plant control 5
rooms.
That is why we have to do both.
6
.CHAIEMAN AHEAENE:
So would you then have these 7 people giving the requalification exam, both work with the 8 operators at the plant and then at the simulators at the 9 facility?
10 MR. HANAUER:
I think they all have to traipse 11 rrom one to the other.
12 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
I think you had better think 13 about that.
I 14 R.
HANAUER:
r.
Collins --
15 MR. COLLINS:
This is only going to be for a short 16 period of time, fiscal 198 2 and 1983.
There are these 15 1'7 simulators now that are almost all ready to go on line.
In -
18 - addi tion, there are la more under other, and it is my 19 understanding, checking around and getting the statistics, 20 that just about every utility with an operating plant is 21 either reviewing bids for a simulator or doing engineering 22 studies.
23 I would say by 1984 or 1985.we are going to have-24 nothing but plant specific simulators to deal with, and that N
25 is going to cut down a considerable amount.
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CHAIEMAN AHEAENE:
Where will they be located?
'2 MR. COLLINS:
Most will be located right at'the 3 site.
Eight at-the site.- That will give us an efficiency 4 right there.
5' MR. HANAUEF:
That saves the companies having to 6 traipse their operators around, too.
7 CHAIE. MAN AHEARNE:- All right.
8 MR. DENTON:
Slide 13 just finishes up that unit 9 by pointino out the resources -- where the resources flow 10 from.
11 (Slide.)
12 EP. DENTON:
haybe Slide 13A would interest you.
13 It shows some statistics since we have uperaded the passing
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14 grades in so.?e of these areas.
We projected one-third ~of 15 the candidates would fail just based on previous scores.
16 That has been borne out in some recent tests.
Down 30 1'7 percent of operators, 17 for SE0's.
We have not budgeted on 18 the assumption of those increased failures.
I hope the 19 system copes with that, and we go back to a small failure 20 rate.
21 For budget purposes, I hope that they train them 22 to get back down to the failure statistics they had before.
23 ME. HANAUER:
We presume --
24 MR. DENTON:
I would be worried if industry N.
25 maintains this high f ailure rate.
These candidates come ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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2 CO EISSIONEE HENDEIE:
You would have to get. half 3 again as many requal exams as there are people'to be:
4 requalled, right?
5 EE. HANADEE:
We would have to give a lot more-
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6 exams,in order for them to pan.out the number of people they 7 need, and also we have to re-examine people who failed and 8 who apply again, which it is their right to-do.
9 Khat we presume will happen will-be that they will 10 upgrade over some period of time which I cannot predict l
11 that they will wash out the low end of the candidates.
They-12 will take in better qualified people, and in particular that 13 they will upgrade their instruction, knowing that the.
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15 passing rate will go up to some reasonable number.
16 CHAIPEAN AHEARNE:
I was trying to cak e the 17 obvious point that we should not be concerned aboutEwhat the 18 failure rate is.
We should be concerned about'what the 19 qua11ty of-the examination is.
~
20 R. HANAUER:
We are, but when we make budget 21 numbers, we make predictions.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Yes, I understand that, but we 23 should never -- some academic environments, there is a 24 tendency if the failure rate is too high to adjust the 25 examination.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 :
46 1
E.
HAHAUEF:
Not ours.
2' YS. DENTON:. Seventeen -- I mean 13D indicates the 3 existing picture with regard to operators and SEC's'and a 4 breakdown of what the growth may-be in that area.
5 (Slide.)
6
- n. DENTON:
Is 3,000'the number now?
7 E.
HANAUES:
We are just short of 3,000.
2,752 8 was the last snapshot.
9 MR. DENTON:
The next decision unit is case work.
10 (slide )
11 ME. DENTON:
Slide 14, our intent here is to make 12 sure we have incorporated the T5I lessons into all of 13 those.
We assume there will not be any CP applications
.t.,
14 before 1982 at the earliest, no new CP. applications.
We 15 m ain tain the capability to do things like early si te 16 reviews, in case interest does show up at a very low-level.
17 Our budget assumptions on Page 15, they show the 18 discipline we are trying to exercise in a case where we have 19 added only one professional -- on manpower year per review 20 to implement the action plan.
Our experience in trying to 21 get out the first few cases shows we are running way over 22 that.
We are running two to three man years per low power-
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23 license.
That may just be the initial start up phenomenon 24 as we settle in on a system.
25 (Slide.)
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l-XE. DENTON:
We are really going to have.to 2 ~ stretch.to' maintain' that one man year.
Now, among the 3' things we are doing with one applicant is having hir do.rore-4 of-the review, a technique that was explored a t. th+ IEFE 5 meeting we spoke at called systems management, where we give 6 the utility the-ability te audit the product they get fron 7 the architect engineer and the vendor, and we audit the 8 applicant.
9 We attended the meeting.
They-had'nino company 10 employees who were expert in batteries other than those 11 assigned on the project.
Bechtel was the presenter of the 12 design ba ttery system.
They looked.not only at the batteries designed but' single failures and 40-year 13 14 maintenance of the battery system.
15 They had three consultants with them.
They took a 16 transcript, and we had our reviewer in the' meeting.
The 17 meeting went for eight or ten hours.
And they found -- and 18 the panel had carefully reviewed our standard review plans, 19 regulations, and asked all the right questions of Bechtel, 20 so it was interesting for our reviewer to watch Bechtel 21 being put through the hoop by the buyer of the battery 22 systems.
23 So, in one day we accomplished a large part of our 24 review of the battery systems, and when they clean up these 25 15 discrepancies that were found and document that, that can
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2 I think'if we can' find. ways to move the bulk of 3 the burden of the review more out to the utility and make 4 then' review what they are buying, we can really cave en 5
manpower.
6 We have also noved to that same u t'ili t y the I.C 7 distribution systems.
It-will not work across the Chole 8 spectrum of plant areas, because the utility may not have 9 the specialized competence, but in some areas it might help 10 us achieve this one man year, and we have retained Fernan 11 Legot from NASA who did all the system management reviews of 12 many of their spacecraf ts as our consultant.
So, he is 13 helping us establish the rigor and discipline it takes for
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t 14 our review.
I 15 Let me go to Slide 16.
16 (slide.)
17 MR. DENT 0E That breaks out how we distribute 18 manpower for the cgse reviews in 1982 and 1983 between OL's 19 and oti ar activities, and how the contract assistance breaks 20 out in those years.
21 (Whereupon, at 3:22 p.m.,
Commissioner Bradford 22 left the room.)
23 MR. DEPTON:
16A gives a detailed breakdown of 24 vhat the case-work really is in terms of OL's and other 25 activities during those years.
You can see the OL's under ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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49 1 review remain pretty laroe up to about 1983 tefore they 2 begin to'go down.
3 CHAIRMAN-AHEARNE:
The numbers in parentheses are?
4 MR.. DENTO.V Units.
5.
MR. MIRAGLIA:
Thirty-four applications for.57 6 units.
7 UE. DENTON:
So it is a sizeable work load ahead 8 of us in that decision unit.
9 (Slide.)
10 R.
DENTON:
Let's go to Slide 17.
I think we 11 have talked about this, but it chows the 1.7 again, and the 12 three and a half in the lab loaner program.
I just wanted 13 to highlight specifically those dollars which are over the.
~ 14 pppc. guidance.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Now, in.the spring, we' made a 16 commitment -- at least we made an estimate to the' House 17 Appropriations Committee.
Frank was involved in puttinc 18 that together.
19 MR. MIRAGLIA:
yec, sir.
20 CH1.IRMAN AHEARNE:
At that time, one of the points 21 you made, if we get the lab loaners in 1981, then we-believe 22 ve can keep this schedule up.
23 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
24 HR. MIRAGLIA:
We were pretty definitive with 25 respect to making the 1980 and'1981 dates.
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CH AIRMAN AHEARNE:
That' is right.
2 gg, yIpAg;1A Very definitive.
We did not rpeak 3 ' with' much rig or.
4 CHAIRMAS AHEAFNE:
In 1962, cre you saying that
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5 you need this lab loaner program in order to make the dates 6 that we were forecasting for that pericd?
7 MR. DENTON:
Not quite.
I think there are some 8 activities-in the safety technology decision units that if 9 we did not have the lab loaner program, I would put them on 10 case work.
I would advoca te slipping some activities out to 11 longer years.
12 I really consider some of the safety technology 13 creas to be our capital investnient.
We need to incorporate
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t 1-4 those kinds-of things like risk assessment and operating 15 experience into our structure, and'I don't want to throw l
16 those same skills into case work.
i 17 So, if I did not have the lab loaner program I 18 would have to eat back into that a bit, so the case work i
19 really allows me to take those safety technology -- make 20 those advances without spending them on case work.
21 So, it is 22 CHAIR!AN AHEARNE4 So that if you do not get the-23 lab loaner program, you could still meet the schedule, but 24 you would have to slip some of the safety technology.
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25 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
And then I would get into real ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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51-L l =tr'ade-offs as'to how to do that..
2 B.
IFAGLIA:
As Harc1d said, this is a capital 3 investment.
This is the key-to.getting some discipline =in e
4 the process.
- t is the thin g we have been deferring year to 5 year,-becquse it is not that productivity oriented ~in the 6 sense of showing an SEE or completed licensing action.
7 MR. DENTON:
My nagoing concern aboct special 8 skills, the other reason I would like to sta y with some
~
9 level of lab loaner prograr. -- it is really both arguments 10 that lead me to this recommendation.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
By lab loaner, we have been 12 previously using that as a shorthand for people in the DOE-13 or other Federal agencies working for us on this.
Is that 14 what you still have in mind?
15 MR. DENTON:
Yes, yes.
I think we tried to drop 16 that word.
17 MR.
IRAGLIA:
We are using lab assistance.
18 MR. DENTON:
lt is the same thing.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You are not extending-it, then, 20 to incorporate general contractual support?
21 MR. DENTON:
No.
Z!
CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
Do you have a sense that -- I 23 guess it is mainly-the Energy Department for most of these.
24 MR. DENTON:
For example, I have four slots right 25 now assigned to the Corps of Engineers, and in a sense you ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
$2 1 could look at that as the same function, althouch_it is not 2 within DOE.
3 CHAIEEAN AHEARNE:
Do you have the sense that DOE 4 is interested.or willing to have this extension.?'
5 gp, DENTON:
Every indication is, they are 6 completely willing to do so to the extent they can, and so 7 far we have not hit any areas where they have'said no.
8 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
Has anyone raised the concern
~
9.about, is this legal to essentially be going out to contract 10 with what would appear to' be full-time staf f members on a 11 permanent basis?
12 MR. DENTON:
I think it has been raised at several 13 times and relooked at each time, and the conclusion has como
(
14 back that it is acceptable.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Len, any problems that you knov 16 Of7 1'7 E.
BARRY:
No.
The cost benefit debate, we have 18 taken a good look at that.
It seems to be working.
19 MR. DENTON:
I think it does have the positive 20 advantage from some standpoint that rather than hiring 21 specialized skills that you may seldom need in a process --
22 CHAIRMAN AHEAONE:
Xes, that was a very good 23 argument the first year, a little less strong in the second 24 year, and by the third year --
w 25 (General laughter.)
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'1-r ME. DENTON:
I think 'we would like tc get out of 2 it a lso. -
It. takes a lot of eff ort to make it work
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-3 successfully, and we do propose'to not use it in the year 4 after 19E3.
5
-Let me show:175, and then I will chow a little 6 more' detail.
17E is the list of current plans un3er review, 7 nothing you haven't really seen before.
We have asked 8 ourselves, let's suppose that while our objective here is to 9 meet all the commitments we have made, suppose we have competing priorities.
The same reviewer is assigned to two 11 cases.
How would we allocate his time?
17C shows some work-i 12 we have done in cooperation with DOE to think about that 13 question.
l['
14 (Slide.)
l 15 MR. DENTON:
This shows our estimates based on I
16 input from DOE on the reserve margins in that regional power 17 system if that plant is not completed, so it gives us a 18 sense of priorities, so to speak, if you look at mere,1y need i
19 for power.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
This does not look exactly 21 like, but is rather similar to a set of priority by year 22 lists in an OPE paper that has just come around that George 23 Icemount got up, and it derives f rom a DOE analysis of t
24 reserve margins, amount of --
25 MR. DENTON:
It is the same data base.
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!R. !!RAGlIA:
This is a DOE report.
Their 2 ' estimates are based primarily on applicants' construction 3 com pletion ~ da tes.
We have r.odified.tha t to show, based on 4
construction completion dates, but it is the same data-our 5 base that was used to develop the numbers.
6 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You ranks your 7 monotonically on reserve margins.
8 MR. DENTON:
We also have another ranking.
There-9 are distinctions to be drawn with regard to need for power 10 and certainly there sure.enough are.
Then we went the 11 further step, Slide 17E, showing a ranking you might de if 12 the objective was prioritorization based on oil savings, 13 because son e regions burn coal and some burn oil.
14 (Slide.)
15 MR. DENTONS These are the same pla.it., but it 16 shows the DOE estinate of the oil saved in barrels per-day.
17 MR.
IRAGLIA:
The priorities are the same for 18 1981, whether by doing it by oil or by 19 MR. DENTON:
The NA means not available for those 20 two plants, and what it shows is that some areas burn a lot 21 more coal, and they are the zeros.
22 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What does NA mean?
23 MR. MIRAGLIA:
Not available.
Data not available.
24 MR. DENTON:
-We are looking at both the k
25 reliability and the oil sa vi ngs as kind of an internal ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 -
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55 1 'prioritiration where. we get a conflict.
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2 CHAIP%AN AHEAENE: -Can I get a copy of those two?
3 MR. DENTON:
Certainly.
Sure.
4 Slide Fulber 15 returns tc-the next decision unit.
5 (Slide.)
6 MR. DENTON:
This is i decision unit ~ I think1ve 7 are making the capital investment in.
It is the one where 8 we are resolving unresolved safety issues and-other generic 9 issues.
We are improving our operational data.
We take ' th e 10 inputs from the AEOD and turn them into requirements.
~
11 This is one where I think we are p r e't ty much at 12 the EDO mark.
We are at the EDO mark in 1962.
Internally, 13 we distribute more in this unit than the EDL mark would,
'l 14 even though we agree on the overall of fice marki l
l 15 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
How do you-propose to allocate 16 your effort on the evaluation of operating d ata ?
~
1'7 MR. DENTON:
Let's go to Slide 21.
18 (Slide.)
o l
19 MR. DENTON:
This shows how we allocate our effort 20 within all of the subunits of that opera tin g experience 21 evaluation.
We have a tranch we have designated as the 22 interfacing branch with the outside groups, and there'was 23 also in that subunit some of the activities of each project 7.
24 manager, I believe.
k.
25 MR. MIRAGLIA:
This year it is essentially the l
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1
5 G-1 branch in.SP.
2
%R. DENTON:
We' talked to AEOD on how tefdivide up 3 ~ th e activities so we don 't' duplicate each ' other.
Our 4
present understandinc of how we interface is.on Slide 21I.
5 If we could have that-slide, please.
6 (Slide.)
7 MR. F.IRAGLIA:
21I.
8 HR. DENTON:
When I get a letter from Mr.
i 9 Michaelson, it goes to the Safety Technology Unit and to the 10 Branch of Operatin; Experience Evaluation, and they-look at l
11 it in terms of how to approach this problem, procedure 12 modification, tech spec change, design change, coordinate l-13 with the Division of Licensing, and answer back,.and I reply 14 to him that basically -- I let the ansver be developed i
15 within that branch.
[
16 Typically the recommendation that comes in to us 17 from the ACES or ICE or the AEOD describes the problem.
It i
18 does not describe the colution.
i 19 CHAIREAN AREARNE:
One of the things I an puzzling l
20 my way through here is, in the Schedule E3A, which I.am not 21 sure who owns, but whoever owns E3 A, it has the request' f or 22 12 people for that line in 1963 instead of 8.1.
23 MR. MIRAGLIA:
Tha t -is righ t.
The request was 24 The EDO mark showed reductions to our request.
Our request
,-(
25 for fiscal year 1983 was for 779.
The EDO mark for 1983-was-
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57 1-760.
So there is a difference.
2 CHAIPMAN AHEARNE:
Except, 'I a: looking at the.
3 previous chart, 21, tha t has office requests.
The effice 4
request.
It says, eight.
5 MS. DENT 014:
That is staff years.
6 gg, tiIgA;LIAs That is the planned accomplishments 7 within the PPPG.
If you flip to Page 22, th e planned 8 accomplishment above, there is the PPPG, -and-that would be G the difference.
10 C3MMISSIONER HENDEIE:
There are no staff man 11 years in 1982.
12 MR. %IRAGLIA:
Correct, but in 1963 there is the 13 diff erence that Chairman Ahearne noted.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You really wanted to incrense 15 to 12.
16 ER. MIRAGLIA:
What we are showing in 1962 is 17 essentially the branch that has been dedicated to do this, 18 but really operating e3perience evaluation cuts across the 19 board.
You have project managers looking at things, the
- 20 reviewers.
There is more people and. individuals involved in 21 reviewing operating experience data.
22 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
I guess what I am trying to 23 puzzle through is,-if Michaelson's group has a size of 20 --
24 187 25 MS. CORNELL:
They are going up to 40.
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C0f5!SSIONER HENDRIE:
Now we have 12 here and'10
- 2 there.
In three years we will get to the point where ve r.
3 yill have cone fror. not looking'well enough at it to not 4
doing anything but looking at it.
5 (General laughter.)
6
- 52. CORNELL:
One of the differences ichaelson 7 had is the definition.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Do we have a cross-cut on 9 this thing?
10 R. CORNELL:
Yes.
We gave you sort of a revised 11 sheet, about four pages from the back.
12 CHAIRYAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Case work,. licensing (i
14 ' actions.
15 MR. CORNELLs It is the f ourth page from the last.
16 COEMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Operational data analysis.
17 That is the page.
18 Okay, 1982, AEOD, 40, NRR, 13.9, that is your 19 branch, of eight plus --
20 ME. MIRAGLIA:
Overhead.
And it also reflects 21 some project management.
22 COMMISSIONER.HENDRIE:
ICE, 18 6,
- NhSS, 8.5.-
23 Research -- God, it goes on and on.
94 staff years.
24 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
And where is all this being k-25 done?
Is Michaelson. coordinating all of this or attempting ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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59 1 to?
2 MR. COENr1L:
As I said, there is a lot cf work to 3 be done.
4 cgA;g3Ay AggAppr:
- yes, 5
.M S. DENTON:
Could we maybe go to Slide 21I for a 6 moment?
I think it is up th ere.
We at the mor.ent d o th e 7 coordinatien with the AEOD as shown in the last-four 8 bullets, and we have proposed a system of coordination.
We 9
are not trying to duplicate the massive data gathering, 10 looking for footprints, patterns, and trends, and ro forth, 11 but he sent over three or four specific recommendations, but 12 they are not generally in the context of how to solve that 13 licensing problem.
14 It is this thing needs to be fixed, and we have 15 several ways to fix it.
You can issue Orders or you can 16 change the tech specs or require a system operator -- so11t l'7 takes somebody in that group to understand and write a memo 18 back, yes, we are going to do it on this time schedule apd 19 in this way.
20 That is the kind of coordination we are doing on-21 the memos he provides.
Maybe Boger would like to speak: to 22 the more general idea of how our. branch is going to 23 interface with the activities.
24 ER. MATTSON:. We have tried to build a branch 25 function'that recognires the responsibility of.the Director.
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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60 1 of Eeactor Eegulatien f or un derstanding how his reculatory 2 requiremente, his re gulatory progran verks in practice, so
/
3 there is the implementation aspect, and there is alco a.need 4 on the part of the Director of Fequlation to be tuned in to 5 what operating experience is telling him in a sert cf big 6 picture way, not a fire drill by fire d rill wa'y, but how is 7 it integrating?
How is the thing being done by Darry1's 8 operating reactor assessment branch at midnight ?
How are 9 they looked at a month later, summing over seve ral instances 10 of the same general character?
And wha t are they telling us i
11 about how the regulatory program works?
12 So, for example, somebody might turn to the f
13 operating experience evaluation' branch and say, how is the l
14 fire protection program working?
'n'e h a v e a fire protection L
15 philosophy that says, for the first few years, we will 16 decrease the number of fires that occur.
That will be our 17 con cen tr a tio n through administrative procedures and what l
18 have you.
19 Over the longer haul, we will put in hardware.
If 20 fires' occur, they will not knock out redundant safety 21 systems.
Is that philosophy working in practice or not?
22 How have the number'of fires changed over the last-five 23 years?'
I.
24 So, there are cross-cut studies.:
It is more than t
\\
25 just looking at an LER.and saying, does this teach me a-
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1 lesson a la Davis-Essse, and I cught to go do sorething _
f 2 about it.
That is Michaelson's job in our view.
Dur job l
3 is, how does the regulatory program work in practice, as.
4 reflecting by operating experience, and that includos the 5 follow-up to what Eichaelson and ICE or the ACES might say 6 about a particular event or series of evente or trend of 7 LER's, but also cross-cutting and looking generally at the i-8 performance in practice.
9 We have a memo we wrote to Michaelson a few weeks 10 ago that lays that out in about three pages with specific 11 functions for the eight people that are new at work in this 12 area.
If you would like a copy of it, I will give it to you.
13
- v. R. DENTON:
I do think we end up being a' funnel l
l 1-4 for everyone's suggested improvements in reactor design and l
15 operation, so right now everyone, the ACES is writing us -
l 16 more letters than ever.
The Michaelson group is_ gearing-j f
I 1'7 up.
ICE is transferring more and more over, and it is l
l 18 important for me to have a group like this one that sorts i-19 and screens and keeps it, so I just don't respond, as Roger' 20 said, in a fire drill fashion.
We would just be generating 21~ more and more actions if I am not careful.
f 22
~ CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Just to refresh my memory, what 23 is the difference between designated generic issues A
~
24 through D and generic studies and unresolved safetyLissues?-
25 MR. DENTON: : Unresolved safety issues --
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1 CHAIFP.AF AHEAFNE:
Okay.
I have that suhret.
Nov 2 you have designsted generic issues and generic studies.
3 MR. MIRAGLIA:
If the Chairman would recall,.alcut 4 a year ago or maybe it is even longer ago than thtt, when 5 the first report to the Cong ress went down te deternine what 6
were unresolved safety issues, there was 130 plus items.
Of 7 those 130, we developed the subsets that were designated 8 USI's, and the remaining items in the 110 or 20 that was 9 left were designated generic.
They have been desicnated and 10 classed in Categories A through D, so it is a class of 11 generic items that have not achieved the status, so to 12 speak, of --
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Generic studies?
14 MR. EIR AGI.I A:
Generic studies are things on the 15 order of some of the as;ects of the action plan.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
They do not include the non-USI 17 and generic issues?
18 gg, MIEA;LIA:
Tha t is correct.
4 19 COEMISS10h EE HENDRIE:
'n'h a t did you just say?
20 MR. DENTON:
Let's try Slide 29G.
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Say it again.
It sounded 22 to me like it was minus 1.
23 (General laughter.)
24 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
Well, Frank, I thought, was 25 just finishing pointing out that that block of 133 or ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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a 63 1:whatever'the number was was separated into two. units, USI's 2.and non-USI's, and the_non-USI's arc called decicnated 3 generic issues.
~4 MR. MIRA3LIA:
That is correct.
5 C3MMISSIONER EENDRIE:
Yes, okay.
6 ER. HIRA0LIA:
I thought that is what'I was 7 agreeing to.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Those are not generic studies.
9 MR. DENTON:
There are scme --
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
See?
In other words, those are 11 not those.
12 COM ISSIONER HENDRIE:
I trust that is the case.
-13 (General laughter.)
14 (Slide.).
15 MR. DENTON:
There are some --
16 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE I' expect to be presented 1'7 with a certain amount of double -- you know -- double 18 bookkeeping, but I trust that it will be done with more 19 subtlety than this.
20 (General laughter.)
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I a ssume wh a t yet are, 22 saying is true.
23 (General laughter.)
24 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
If they are really trying 25 that, they are being contempuous of you.
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(General laughter.)
2-CDE ISSIONEh HENDRIE:
I don't mind being cheated, 3 but I don 't want to be inculted.
4 (General laughter.)
IF ER. DENTON:
I show a few examples here of what we 6 call generic studies.
7 (Slide.)
8 ER. DENTON:
Not on the generic issues list, but 9 there are topics under discussion that may one day nake it 10 as an issue.
11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Or vice versa.
12 ER. DENTON:
They are just more or less pursue 13 technical understandings without a clear understanding-cf
-(
14 _ here it is going tc come out.
w 15 CH AIRM A.N AHEABNE:
I guess the question et this 16 stage leads me into a question that I had carried over from 17 Monday.
In the research review 18 COEMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I will be right back.
-19 (Whereupon, at 4:47 p.m.,
Commissioner Hendrie 20 left the room.)
21 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
He disassociates himself fron 22 the question.
23 Budnitz raised the issue that NRR is spending less 24 time reviewing the research work reports, less time going to 25 research meetings, and therefore less time coordinating with ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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13 5
'l research.
I look 'a t this list of generic studies, and~I 2 1 wonder whether the large number of generic studier in '-:hR is 3 not beginnic; te reflect that problem.
4 MF. DENTON:
I talked to Ecn,. rut I heve not been 5 able to talk to Bob about that concern.
We are trying to 6 focus our coordination with research on a research-7 coordination branch, a new unit, so I am trying to provide a 8 '. consistent attention to all of~research's activities through 9 this branch, and let them go to NER and get the input.and 10 take it back.
11 It is true that pr evio usly we sent large numbers 12 of people to things called research review groups, and I 13 think it had a certain amount of status for people to'be on.
l 14 onefand I find every division and sometimes a lot of 15 branches wanting to nominate a person.for a research review 16 group, so we might have six or eight people attending some l'7 research review group.
IS I really think that dces not reflect the FRE-19 management focus on that.
It takes up more recources.
I am 20 trying to cut down the number of people attending any 21 particular meeting while at the same time making sure.that
~
22 we have a focus of the research coordination group.
I don't.
23 see we have diminished.
I think we have sharpened.
24 MR. MATTSON:
I think we are giving better I
25 attention to research coordination with fewer people today ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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_f,6 6
.-- y I than we were--a year ago.
- )a 2
MR. DENTON:
It used to be that r e s ea r ch 'e'o.uld gc'-
- 3 shopping among etaff.to find someone ' tha t was interested in 4 their to pic, and so fcrth, and it veuld help ther decider hev
.5 to run it.
They were committed to doing that sort of 6 providing our input on every one of the programs.that we are-7 in te reste d in.
8 (Whereupon, at 3 E ),
Commissioners Gilinsky and 9 Hendrie returned.)
10 HR. %ATISON:
A number of the studies listed up 11 ~there come stca ight out of the a ction plan, and they were.
12 coordina ted research versus NRR, and what is the right place 13 to d o them.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs The coordination branch --
15 KE. DENTON:
It is in safety technology under 16 Roger.
17 CHAIR!AN AHEARNE:
Is it staffed?
18 XR.
ATTSON:
It,is small, but it is staffed, 19 yes.
It is six people, including the branch chief, and they 20 divvied up the research pie, and they are on top of. every 21 element of the program.
They showed it in our review of the-22 research budget.
It is the best review we have ever.done~of
/
23 the research prod,ect.
24 MR. DENTOF Previously~, research did get a little' 25 bit of time from a lot of heople,but it was poorly ALDERSON REPORTING _ COMPANY, INC.
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9:
67 I coordinated,-and I never really knew what our advice was all
^^ '"
2 the: time, this way, at least.
They work full-time in-3 coordinating.
4 -
CFAIEEAN AHEAENE:
I would urge you to at least 5 before Bob leaves speak to some of their senior people 6 -there, because the impression that they have come away.with 7 is, because of resource limitations,- NE? is no longer really 8 interested in working closely with them.-
9 MR. DENTON:
I am surprised.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs That would certainly reer to be.
11 a clear message.
12 MR. CORNELL:
One of the things we perceived in 13 the budget review process is, they are dealing with a 14 different clientele working for Roger than they had 15 experienced before.
16 MR. MIRAGLIA:
I think probably their perception I
17 was truer prior to the reorganization since TMI, and up 18 until we got organired we probably --
+
7 19 -
MR. MATTSON:
If they are saying we did a poor job r
~
e' 20 in fiscal 1979, we agree with that.
- r-21 MR. MIRAGLIA:
Yes.
c.
_~~ 22 MR. DENTON:
I want to hit one mere aspectoof the 13 safety technology.
That is risk assessment and the 24 relationship between IEEP and.NEEP and us and research in 25 that area.
If I could go to 211, and just refresh you on W
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1 the IEEP pallet study, what IREP is doing,.and you may have l
2 ' covered this before.
3 (Slide.)
.,~
4
- R. DENTON:
Now, if we can go to the next slide,.
5'215, it starts the IEEP extension, or what we call the 1
6 national program to sweep in everyone.
This is one11n which 7
you --
8 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
Can you leave 1 on for a rinute?
9 (glice )
10 MR. DENTON:
All right.
L 11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I notice Crystal River 3, which 12 is now estimated completion in September, 1980.
.Th a t. is a 13 sliding future, isn't it?
(
14 MR. DENTON:
Well, that -- it sure seems to be.
15 It is being conducted by research with our input at a very 16 low level, and they are using a contractor to.do the work, 17 reporting to them.
18 R... ATTSON :
I think it says to us that you 19 cannot put all of your eggs in the IREP basket for sol'ing v
20 all the world 's problems in the next couple of years.
It 21 has been very difficult to draw Crystal River to a close.
22 Hence, you'cannot bank too much on the next five studies, 23 and you cannot bank on NREP delivering everything in reactor 24 safety in the next two or three years.
We are still 25 learning in this area.
T s
-)
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Mh. DENTON:
?.ss um in g we can get a-tethodolo;y, a-2 textbook approach for thist our 1982 budget deer show us 3 taking the lead in 21Y on implementing this progran for all 4 operating plants using what we have learned.
5 (s11ee,)
6-MR. DENTON:
The plan is still under development, 7 but the concept is that industry would perf orm the analysis,
8 and we would build up and get the skills necessary in NFR to 9 review those types of analyses, and this potential problem 10 is the one we discussed earlier about what do you do with 11 low. risk versus high risk, but this is an area in safety 12 technology, and it is one of those area s which by having the 13 lab loaner program, I would hope to get started here and 14 ' h a ve those people work on this kind of thing, whereas if I 15 nad to put them in the case work review, I would tend to 16 slide this of f a bit.
17 I really think it is important to get started with 18 a program.
'a'e a re pu sh e d by the ACES to put this out in 19 industry and make them do it, and there are two schools of 20 thought within the agency.
One tends to only trust studies 21 we do, like in IEEP.
1.ie other study thinks that.it should 22 be really industry doing the study, and our auditing of it, 23 and I think this rollover period -- we vill make the 24 transition.
25 COMhISSIONER HENDRIE:
You will have a certain 4i ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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8
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70 1 a r. o u n t of trouble with'recource limitations on-the indurtry 2' side.
3 y p,, pgg70g;
- yes, 4
CCEh:SSIONEE 1:ENDPIE If you try to get_60 odd 5 units done at once, I think what people probably find ic 6 that there is an intrinsic skilled person pool which is 7 capable, perhaps, of doing I don't know, five er six 8 units a year maximum, and it will take a while to get down 9 the road.
10 E.
DENTON:
I think we have to grow thoce 11 skills.
It is not a discipline you are able to go out and 12 find people who make a career in this.
13 ME. Y.ATTSON I don't think we view PPA as a 14 one-shot effort.
We think more in terms of teaching 15 existing nuclear engineering talents to use the tool of PRA 16 rather than paying a handful of select PRA experts the 17 premium wage for marching through one plant at a time over-18 the next 20 years.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
If you do all 60 at once, they 20 will all come out at the same time.
You will have to look 21 at them all at once anyway.
22 ER. DENTONs That is true.
It is clear it is 23 still' the state of the-art that we are yet to find the plant 24 whose purported risk is anything-greater than the two in 4~
25 WASH 1400.
It would-be remarkable if that study picked out
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I the two riskiect plan ts in the U.
S.
to study.
2 CHAIEMAN AREARNE:
Yes.
}
3 r?. DENTON:
The next slide is Nurber 2u, I I
4 believe.
5 (Slide.)
6 MP. DINTON:
Let's ge to the decision unit on the 7 -TMI cleanup.
This is a slide that reflects both the 8 staffing at the site and back here.
It is concistent with l
9 the PPPG mark.
The planned accomplichments within this are 10.shown on Slide 25.
11 (Slide.)
12 MR. DENTON:
Continue to provide a round the clock 13 coverage, provide the assessments as needed.
[
14 Slide 26 is manpower direction and support.
15 (Slide.)
16 MR. DENTON:
This is not just the number of people 17 in the director's office which we have a unit with a sir.ilar 18 name.
We put in this decision unit now --
19 COMr.ISSIONEE HENDRIE:
I thought this was where 20 the NRB band 21 (General laughter.)
22 MR. DENTON:
The staff from the officer's mess, 23 the bartender --
24 (General laughter.)
N 25 ME. DFMTON:
We could use a little nore ambience.
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COMMISSIOhEE HENDEIE:
We are trying.tc get it fer 2
you.
3 CHAIE AN AHEAENE:
It is a cut above many of the 4
places in the agency.
5 C0KEISSIONEP HENDEIE:
Furthernore, ve are trying 6 to. invite.them down here to metropolitan Washington, D. C.,
7 to show them the benefits of cultural centerc here.
-8 MR. DENTON:
I really don't have n.any complaints 9 about the Air Rights Temporary Building.
That space looks 10 like it is goinc to be excellent when it is availatie.
11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yhere were we?
12 HE. DENTON:
This has not only the director's l
13 staff, but also all of the training associated with it, 1[
14 assistance to other groups, and it sweeps through the l
l 15 organization and puts it in the -- this is the l
16 correspondence -- all activities that are directly -- the 17 size of my office, f or example --
18 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
Are you saying that tnere are 19 some people'in'each of the other branches that are then --
20 MR. EIRAGLIA:
Yes, yes.
21 MR. DENTON:
Slide.27 --
22 MR. EIRAGLIAs Slide 27.
23 MR. DENTON:
-- breaks down where these resources 24 are.
25 (Slide.)
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"E.
DENTON:
Whereas we used to count this just as 2 the director's effice.
3 CHAIRMAS AHEAENE:
I understand.
Ihert is much 4 nore overhead for the whole FER.
5 COM ISSIONER HENDEIE:
Can you really get away 6 with casen staff years per year on correspondence?
7 R. DENTON Let me ask Frank or someone who 8 looked at that.
9 MR. MIFAGLIA:
I think that is essentially the 10 level of effort that we have been showing.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But that is more, seven people.
12 MR.
IRAGLIA:
It is seven professional nan years 13 cut across there.
14 MR. DIRCES:
It depends on how you allocate it.
15 If you are writing a letter on a license, a cocket on a 16 license 17 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs That is case work.
18 MR. DIRCKS:
But a 'ot of these inquiriec are 19 related to specific cases, so I guess it depends on how you 20 allocate your manpower.
21 COM ISSIONER HENDRIE:
I see.
Eight.
Gratuitous 22 correspondence f rom Congressmen on the Updike plant, is that 23 Congressional correspondence or is that a condition of the 24 Updike plant docket?
i 25.
MR. MIRAGLIA:
FOIA and that kind of thing are in ALDERSON REPORTING C.OMPANY, INC.
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1 there.
2 MR. DENTON s On the le st slide, I have tried to 3 summarize what we consider the major budget issues.
I think 4 I ha ve' hit them all.
I think we vill see full 5 implementation of the action plan.
6 (Slide.)
7 ER. DENTON:
And I do not have it on the slide,.
8 but I have in my notes on the last' bullet the Eingham 9 amendment applications.
10
.CHAIBXAN AHEARKE:
'a' hen you say, does not include 11 resources f or regionalization --
12 R. DENTON:
Except'in these areas where we have 13 already agreed to put people out, such as in the operator
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14 licensing units, it does not include resources for a 15 wholesale --
16 CHAIREAN AHEARNE:
Would it be fair to restate l'7 that to say, it does not include any additional resources 18 that might be required for *egionalization?
19 ER. DENTON:
Yes.
20 CHAIR AN AHEARNE:
Because it is not automatic in 21 some areas that regionalization would automa tically lead _to 22 an increase.
23 ER. DENTON:
Right.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It does not include potential 25 impa ct of =regionaliza tion ?
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1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20014 (202)554-2346
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ME.. DE!; TON :
Yes.
So, overall, I think by not 2 growing, it provides the incentive to the office to try to 3-find some new ways of doing business acainst the division 4 director's general advice for sone of them -- I thoucht VE 5 should live within the PPPG guidance, and we have found a 6
way that we think accomplishes all our important missions 7 without having to go out for new people -- I tend to be an
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8' optimist.
I know that history does not back this, but I 9 continue to think that if we search out ways to improve, we 10 can.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Questions?
12 COMHISSIONER HENDEIE:
I think this is one of the 13 easier budget areas.
The request is, by virtue of being
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14 closer to the iPPG guidance, at least, than some others, is 15 easier to deal with.
16 I do not have any further questicns on it.
17 CHAIEHAN AHEARNE:
I also would like to thank you 18 for a Nery clear presentation., It helps a great deal in 19 trying to wrestle with these things to have it well laid ou t 20 like that.
It was very good.
I 21 MR. MIRAGLIA:
Thank you.
22 MR. DENTON:
Thank you.
23 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
Thank you.
24 (k'hereupon, a t 4: 03 p.n.,
the meeting was 25 adjourned.)-
c ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the Commission Meeting in the matter of:
CLOSED MEETING - OFFICE OF NUCLEAR REAC70R REGULATIONS BUDGET PRESENTATIONS Date of Proceeding:
July 22, 1980 Docket !! umber :
Place of Proceeding: Washington, D. C.
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Commission.,
David S.
Parker f
Official Reporter (Typed)
I
/
(SIGMATURE OF REPOR*rR)
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O 6