ML20033C160
| ML20033C160 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/18/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8112020764 | |
| Download: ML20033C160 (39) | |
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h UNITED STATES
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COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISd,
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Budget Session - Markup /Reclama, p.m.
Session July 29, 1980 Pursuant to 10 CFR 9.108 (c), the Commission, upon the advice of the General Counsel has determined that the subject transcript should be released,to the public in its entirety.
Samuel J Chilk ffice of th Secretary 8112O20764 011118 PDR 10CFR PDR PT9.7
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l'
3 4
CICSED MEETING 5
BUDGET SESSION - MARKUP /RECLAMA 6
7 8
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 9
Boom 1130 10 1717 H Street, N.
W.
11 Washington, D. C.
12 13 Tuesday, July 29, 1980 e
14 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 3:07 p.
15 m.
16 BEFORE:
17 JOHN F.
AHEARNE, Chairman of the Commission 18 VICTOR GIIINSKY, Commissioner 19 PETER A.
BRADFORD, Commissioner 20 JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Commissioner 21 22 23 24 25 l
ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
i I hRC STAFF PRESENT:
2 L.
B ARRY, Comptroller 3
S.
CHILX, Secretary 4
J. FUNCHES 5
K. CORNELL 6
R. TWEED 7
D. RATHBUN 8
W.
DIRCKS 9
J. BRGWN 10 N.
MONACO.
11 L. O ' CO N N EL L 12 c..VELEZ 13 R. RECKART 14 15 16 17 16 19 N
21 22 23 24 25 ALCER$0N REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is the House mark, Len?
3 MR. BARRY:
437, yes, sir.
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4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
How much was the reclama?
5 MR. BARRY:
$24 million.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And 77 people?
7 MR. BARRY:
And 77 people.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Not as had as I thought it would 9 look.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Obviously, all is wonderful.
What 11 do you think, Len?
12 MR. BARRY:
Will you give me one moment?
13 (Pause.)
14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
How did standards get -- Oh, I 15 see.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
What was the 1980 number total l'7 budget?
18 MR. BARRY:
$405 million.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
$405 million.
20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What 1980 number is that?
l 21 ER. BARRY:
Dollar figure in total.
That is how we 22 will finish off 1980.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is in 1980 dollars?
i 24 MR. BARRY:
Yes, 1980 dollars.
25 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE 1981 is in 1981 dollars, 1982 and l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
4 1 1983 are in 1983 dollars?
2 MR. BARRY:
1982 and 1983 are in 1982 dollars.
ex 3
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
So if you put inflation onto the 4 1981 --
5 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What do you figure for inflation?
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
1980 was an unusual year.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE 1981.
8 COMMISSIONER GIIINSXY:
If you --
9 COMMISSIONEE BRADFORD:
For 19 81, CMB gave us in their 10 guidance -- that was the letter we got.
You know, it is the 11 same 481 we had last year, so they have not done anything 12 if you take the -- if you take the $129 million out of that 13 for people in this budget, and then you multiply the 14 remainder, which is the travel, admin support, program 15 support, by 1.09, and then put the 129 back in again, you 16 come up with 512 million.
That is like about 12 million l'7 less than what we have here.
t 18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
We have about 12 millts. soal 19 growth in 1981 and 1982.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Over what we --
21 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
Now, they would probably tell you the 22 u81 has some inflation in there, but you know, that would be 23 a generality, I guess.
They do not truly go down for a 24 budget and inflate, but the President's budget, of course, 25 that they approved la st year was u68.
We are exceeding tha t i
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5 1 by.56 million, but that is discounting any inflation going 2 into 1982, so again we would be maybe 17, 18 difference.
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3 I guess I am not really all -- I guess, you know, going 4 through 033, I don't see anything wrong with this.
5 People-wise, it is a lot of people, 222 over 1981, but not 6 all that much over the President's budget.
I haven't even 7 had time to do it, but 8
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What did we submit f o r th e 9 President 's budget?
10 MR. BARRY:
We asked for -- What was it?
It would 11 probably be about 1980.
Let me check it here.
12 (pause.)
13 MR. 3 ARR Y :
3512 minus 3390, 122 over the President's 14 budget, and half of those are inspectors.
I 15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEt I guess I am the only one who 16 am a little uneasy about the 525 million in NMSS.
I'7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I thought you had an NRR 18 concern, too, John.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Safety technology, I thought, was 20 too large a growth rate, but in looking at the NRR line, I 21 realired if I took those dolla rs out -- but I could go for 22 taking some out of that.
That was also big growth.
I guess 23 I could -- you are right.
I could take a couple of million 24 out of safety technology and feel comfortable.
25 CCMMISSIONIR GILINSKY:
I will support any reductions.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
6 1
(General laughter.)
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Now you are beginning te sound like e'
3 a Jim Schlesinger protoge.
4 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I would be inclined to go with 5 it as we added it up.
The total does not upset me that 6 much.
The people don ' t upset me.
It is 100 more people, 7 which is sort of inspector growth as plants comes on line 8 over the request we got out of --got out of OME last year, 9 3390 versus 3490.
10 The dollar total is slightly above th'e OMB mark, but 11 not enough to upset me.
If anything, I would crank another 12 $8 million into research and do some fast reactor work.
13 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
Peter?
14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, it seems to me one kind 15 of bases a decision on the approach to take to present in 16 th e budget -- That is knocking a couple million here, a 17 couple million there out at this point does not make a big 18 difference in the fundamental fact, if I am reading it 19 correctly, this budget is about 20 percent over the FY 81 20 Congressional action.
21 If we are prepared to try to d o th a t, than this 22 document is probably as good as any.
What I guess I don't 23 have a goed feel for myself is the wisdom of doing that at a 24 tima when the emphasis at every stopping point that goes 25 through from here on is going to be on, I assume, holding it i
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7 I at or close to the rate of inflation versus trying to come 2 in ourselves somewhere what we near what we think the end 3 result at leant of the OMB process is going to be.
4 I guess I as comfortable with coming in slightly on the 5 high side, because we are sort of a last point at which the 1
6 budget is examined, with an eye toward advocating the 7 agency's real needs.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
Everything is pretty much 9 negative from here on.
10 COMMISSIONER 3R ADFORD:
Well, that is right, or at 11 least one could say nega tive o,r -less f amilia r.
12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs With that also.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Still, there comes a' point that 14 the gap between what is going to happen and what we are 15 goino to get that the budget tends in some measure to 16 discredit itself.
I guess I just don't have a good enough I'7 f eel f or the psychology of the reviewers f rom here on out to 18 know whether 20 percent -- that 20 percent increase is in 19 th e ba ll park or it comes at a poin t at which --
20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
But about nine of that is at 21 inflation.
ZZ COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD :
I mean, I understand, but what I can't believe th a t regardless of the guidelines OMB may ZI 24 send out other agencies, that they aren't operatino Z5 themselves on something -- I am putting that the wrong way ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
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that in these times they are not operating on 2 instructions to hold things very close to the guidelines.
3 If we do not lose anything by submitting the buget at this s
4 level, then I have no real qualms about doing it.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs It is $40 million over the 6 guidance, which says something about the guidance.
People 7 will expect to get 10 percent over the guidance.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Ies.
I think.being over the 9 quidance is not that significant if we have a strong 10 argument for it, because --
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I mean, our own guidance.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
That is a more serious problem.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Our cwn guidance.
la COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I thought you were talking about the 16 OMB guidance.
Our own guidance -- I guess I would be a l'7 little happier -- I cannot see how to take the la rge chunks 18 of money out, though, to get back to our own guidance.
19 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD That is the dif ficulty, of l
20 course.
The niggling $2 million here or there does not get 21 rou to your own guidance.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I was looking at it from the 23 standpoint that were I trying to defend this budget outside, 24 wh ere would be places that I would feel under pressure in 25 not being able to -- not being on solid ground, and the l
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9 1 first was in keeping all the money in NMSS.
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'de backed out some of the peo>1e in high level waste.
3 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKYa NMSS research.
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs And the other, though, was on the 5 safety technology office in NRR which has this very huge 6 growth in dollars, which I think is predicated on a belief I
7 that it is going to be usefully spent, which is a 8 fundamental objective of the budget, but it is not as 9 solidly based as some of the other things.
10 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORDs It may have just been that the 11 totals when they added them up came up short of the 12 guidance, and that is where they put the difference.
13 (General laughter.)
14 MR. DENNIS: OPE, of course, is that much closer to the 15 pFPG guidance in its recommendations.
If you were an 16 eagle-eyed Congressman with the OPE memo in front of you, l'7 and this Commission mark contrast -- wha t wo uld be the area 18 you would be focusing on, the ones in w hich the Commission 19 seemed to have gone further than they needed.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Good question.
l 21 MR. RATHEUN4 An eaq1.'ered Congressman 22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Put yourself anywhere in the 23 system.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY 25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
-- but then answer t he question.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The eagle-eyed staff.
2 MR. RATH3UNs Of course, that is the last stop in the
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3 process, and I think that has a lot more to do with where 4 you come out than where yo u go in.
5 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD :
Don't feel strictly bound by 6 the Congressman position.
7 MR. RATHBUNs No, that is fir.e.
Fine.
I guess I would 8 -- I would look hard at the safety technology in NRR as you 9 just mentioned.
I would take into account what my two 10 previous Congresses have done in NMSS, th e 297 staff for FY 11 81,. and look at the growth there.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY a Where did that increase go in 13 NMSS?
14 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
A large amount into the radio 15 isotope licensing, and then into vaste management.
16 F.R. RATHEUNs And also the program support in NMSS.
I 1'7 think the research budget is another one, the 235.
I said 18 when the research budget came up, the T235 million to us 19 resulte in a much better distribution acong the decision 20 un it s, the eight decision units in BES than what we could 21 get with the 5217 million, and that LCFT vas a driving issue 22 in the research budget, but again, using the Congressional 23 perspective as the stopping point, I think that they would 24 probably look f or some red uc tion.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is all that money really coing ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
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What was your number on NMSS?
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Wha t.was the guidance based 19 upon[
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COMMISSIGNER GIIINSKY:
I was going back to the point
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5 to the guidance.
I would no t like to leave that r
6 impression.
Ihat is one thing where, you know, we aren't 7 going to be rigid about it.
If we decide more money should 8 bw spent, then we will decide to spend more money.
But I 9 think there is some of that simply there is some 10 directors having thought big and others having thought less 11 big.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE4 Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY And trying to be cocperative, 14 and in the bureaucratic context, that does not seem to pa y.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We award the faithful and penalize 16 the vanderers.
I'7 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
That is right.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEAEMEs Where would that leavo you?
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would like to see that total 20 reduced, too.
I don't think we can reduce it to the 21 guidance, but to come out somewhere between --
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE What type of number?
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't know.
Somewhere around 24 $500 million or something.
The personal compensation does 25 not go up, because we have not taken account of increases in i l s
9 ALCERSON REPORT 1NG COMPANY. INC.
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pay.
2 ME. BARRY:
It goes up $8 million.
Look at the bottom
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3 of your chart.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That does not include pay 5 increases, so in effect t.h a t does not include inflation, so 6 that part of it 7
MR. BARRY:
Yes, that one vill be handled after the 8 fact.
9 CC.1MISSIONER GIIINSKY :
You cannot count the 10 inflation.
That is one quarter of the budget.
11 MR. BARRY:
That is right.
Ihat will,be added to our 12 budget before it hits the Congress in January.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So -- okay.
There you can talk
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14 about inflation, but even so --
15 MR. BARRY:
Hight.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
About all I can -- I guess I can say 17 -- I can easily see 55 million in NMSS.
I see a cut of $3 18 million in safety technology, and I think you ought to be 19 able to squeeze a million out of admin.
So, I can see 20 getting down to 515, but I don't really know how to get much 21 lover.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think that is the right D direction.
24 CCMMISSIGNE3 HENDRII.
Wo n ' t that take safety tech back 25 down to --
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:,57 million.
2 MR. RATHBUN:
$10 million in FY S2, now, sir.
3 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Will that be below the 81 level?
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4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What would it be in 81?
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:.
5, 4,
9, something.
6 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
How can we absorb all that?
7 MR. BARRY:
The 1981 level for safety technology was 8
5.5.
9 CCMMISSIONER'HENDRIE:
That was the Presiden tial 10 budget.
What is it going to be when Congressional action --
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
5.5.
12 COMMISSIONER HENDRII:
It still vill be?
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The only money we have added to ARR
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14 is the lab loaner.
15 ER. BARRY:
They put $8 million in for that.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And even that is not completely 17 clea r, because the authorizing committees 18 MR. BARRY:
They put a million in there for TMI.
19 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
What is the $10 million 20 increase in ICE?
Where does that come?
21 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
A lot of that is --
22 MR. BARRY:
$5 million is in the operations center.
23 That is half of the debt.
You have another 12 million in 24 admin support, but that should come down, and about $1.7 25 million in travel.
They are our big travel guys.
ALCERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That is the increase?
2 MR. RARRY:
That is the increase.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
An increase of $1.7 million in
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5 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Is a lot of that PCS?
7 MR. BARRY:
Some of that.
Some of that is 8 transportation.
In other words, getting th e residents out.
9 You know, you are going to have a lot of people going from 10 region to Chattanooga after the region, then being 11 relocated.
Your region based program increases.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But the reason that 1982 is so much 13 higher than 1983 is the nuclear data link?
14 MR. RARRY:
Yes.
Also, in travel in general, it goes 15 up about in million.
We priced that out, Commissioner 16 Gilinsky, based in part 1'7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You don't have to convince.me 18 o f i t.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD :
Right.
20 (General laugh te r. )
21 COMMISSIONER BR ADFO RD :
But it looks like the per diem 22 rates are going to ao from $25 to $50 and from 550 to $75.
23 In fact, we are going to go that in 1981.
That is a 42 24 percent increase.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, let me -- Do you think ALCERSON REPoATING CCMPANY, INC.
16 1 that is a reasonable increase, that $10 million increase in 2 ige 7 3
MR. 3ARRY:
I guess we could take $500,000 out of that
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4 without touching nuclear data link or the operations center.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We don't want to keep people 6 from traveling.
7 MR. BARRYs In admin support, admin support, we can 8 take another 5500,000 out.
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'9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Coming back to these I know 10 we are switching from dollars to numbers, but the big 11 increases in people are IEE,100, NMSS, 50 some odd, and 12 th en there are just 13 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
Tiny ones.
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14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
I wonder about that 50 15 increase in NMSS.
How much of that is in materials and how 16 much of that is in 17 MB. BARH1:
Most of it is in the waste -- it is in 18 radiography and low level waste.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
For NMSS?
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs For everybody.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What wa s the guidance, the total 22 agency guidance?
23 MR. RATHRUNs Ch, 3418.
As f ar as people goes, your 24 3490 is 6.8 percent over the FY 81 Congressional action, 25 around 32.68.
Ihat is, witheur the reclama.
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1 percent over the 33u5, assuming the 177 positions.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
This whole tremendous 3 enterprise is set to deal with very much greater numbers of 4 reactors going through the licensing process.
Since then we 5 have realized we have to spend a terrifically greater amount 6 of time on operating reactors than we have in the past.
7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
And also on each reactor review.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
9 MR. BARRY:
NMSS right now is down to about 25 people 10 from where they ought to be.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Pardon me?
12 MR. BARRY:
NMSS, authorized now at 297, are running 13 about 25 people --
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Actually on board?
15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
-- actually,on board.
They 16 have been doing that for a year.
l'7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
They are 25 below 297?
18 MR. 3ARRY:
Yes.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That seems kind of odd to up it.
20 MR..BARRY:
They have been that way for a long time.
21 Ihat is a lot of manpower.
A lot of that is in the fuel Z! cycle area.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see.
You were going to 24 tell me how many of these 50 were being added to the 25 materials, licensing, and how many to the waste?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
4 18 1
MR. BARRY:
Twenty.
2 COMhISSIONER GILINSKY:
Iwenty to materials and 20 to rs 3 the fuel cycle?
4 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
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MR. CORNELLs The f uel cycle decision unit has 20.
6 About half of those are (inaudible)?
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So ten to radioisotope 8 1 censing and the rest to waste?
9 MR. BARRY:
The rest of them a re vaste.
No increase in 10 saf eguards, no increase in saf eguards.
The rest of it is in 11 waste.
You go up about 12 -- you go up about 10 or 12 in 12 high level.
You go up about 17 in low level, and you wculd 13 go up 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How many people are going to be 15 in low level waste.
16 CHAIRMAN AMEARNE:
Thir ty -eigh t.
l'7 MR. BARRY:
Thirty-eight.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
Do we need 38 people for 19 several waste sites?
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Tha t is what their forecast is, that 21 in 1982 there will be 12 new applications for low level 22 waste sites.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Boy, I don't believe that, but 24 maybe.
Is that conceivable, tha t there will be 12 25 applications?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
I
19 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
it is conceivable because of the 2 great pressure to get each state either te develop its own 3 low level waste site or regional.
{'
4 COMMISSIONF3 GILINSKY:
I agree that we ought not to be 5 in the way, but I don't believe there will be 12 6 applications.
7 (Whereupon, at 3:34 p.m.,
Commissioner Bradfo rd lef t 8 th e hearing room.)
9 MR. RARRY:
I think in the high level vaste area -- I 10 don 't know where you draw the line, but people seem to be 11 more critical to that function than the dollars do to them, 12 and I think the Chairman is right on in terms of 1981.
We 13 had a 72 million program in high level waste.
The Congress 14 cut it to two.
We appealed three, and this would take us 15 right back up to 10.6 again.
It is a pretty good increase.
16 In low level waste, we had a 52 million program.
This l'7 is four.
That is doubled.
But Congress did support us 18 completely in low level waste money, and in uranium mill 19 tailing money, but not in'the high level.
They cut us.
And 20 then, of course, on the radiography, that is your other 21 large increase.
They go from about 5400,000 up to $3.3 22 million, so the radiography money goes way, way up.
Way 23 up.
It goes from --
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Isn't that based upon going into a 25 licensing of radiography, developing a license for ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
20 1 radiography?
2 H3. BARRY:
Yes, right.
(^'
3 (Whereupon, a t 3:36 p.:.,
Commissioner Bradford 4 returned to the hearing room.)
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I am just not persuaded.
You 6 know, other things being equal, you have more resources.
7 You can do more -- do a better job, but I think other things 8 tend to be equal.
I am not in a position actually to 9 identify 10 (General laughter.)
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Unfortunately 12
. COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY s One has a general impression.
13 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
14 CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And when resources are not 15 short, there is a tendency to balloon everything.
All kinds 16 of activities balloon.
Environmental reports balloon.
j
)
7 Everything balloons, and there is more coordination.
The 13 product is not necessarily better.
18 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
True.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And so I think there is a good 21 deal to be said for a tighter rein.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I of f er again --
23 COMMISSION ER GILINSKY :
I am going along with you every 24 step of the war.
25 CHAIRMAN AHEAFNEs Ch, great.
All right.
And if Joe I
a ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
21
,o 1 doesn't want to, let's see if I can pick up Peter.
Peter?
2 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes, I will go along with you
^
3 on NMSS.
Were you leaving that at 345, or were you also
('
4 coming down to 3407 5
CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs I was going to leave it at 345.
OMB 6 vill take th e people out.
7 CCM5ISSIONER BRADFORD All right.
I guess I don't 8 have a good feel for what we lose in safety technology by 9 the particular cutback, but I am not uncomfortable.* You 10 said 53 million.
I would have said two.
But 11 CCH3ISSIONER HENDRIE:
How much are you going to take 12 out of it, John?
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I was going to take three out of it.
(
14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Pretty heavy.
Why doesn't 15 somebody take a look at the NRR sheet and see what was on 16 that?
17 3R. SARRY:
This would enable NRR to complete 17 18 currently unresolved safety issues by the end of 1983, abcut 19 six completed per year.
In addition, resources requested 20 are required for the resolution of seven new unresolved 21 safety issues anticipated to be identified in both 1981 and 22 19 8 2 and 1983 thereafter.
23 CC3MISSIONER GILINSKY:
I just don't believe these 24 projects come in certain sires.
They can be handled at a 25 million dollars apiece.
They can be handled at 5700,000 ALCEPSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
22 g
1 apiece.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let's see.
Peter is more 3 comfortable with two.
Joe does not like any.
You would go
{'
4 with three.
Two?
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
All right.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We vill take 52 million out of 7 safety technology, 55 million out of NMSS, $1 million out of 8 admin.
You can sqeeze that, can't you?
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
What about research?
10 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
In the end, any significant --
11 would it make any significant difference?
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, let's see.
Going into reclama 13 on research, which would be equivalent to 12.4
\\
14 MR. 3ARRY:
510 million in research, and of course ve 15 also reclamaed breeder and gas if they insist that we --
16 tha t is ano th er six o r three.
That is another 520 million 17 in total.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
Did you include this ISIS 19 program in admin?
20 MR. BARRY:
The ISIS program is an admin support.
The 21 vay we looked at it today, it vill be distributed to NMSS.
Z!
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What does that cost?
23 MR. BARRY:
That vill run us in 1982 -- I think it is 24 -- I think it is over T7 million.
25 COMMISSIONER GILIN _KY :
Isn't the subject matter of ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
23 1 that program disappearing?
In other words, it is tracking 2 material -- isn ' t that for safeguards?
3 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
4 COMMISSIONER OIIINSKY:
I must say I would not approve 5 of the program.
6 MR. BARRY Except that you have Commission approval on 7 the program, and we had a SECY paper some time back.
We 8 have a bit of money in 1981 we are about to go out with.
9 Your safeguards people and the NMSS director feels pretty 10 strongly about it.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE4 I guess I would, if we want to 12 cancel the program, I have no problem with rethinking it.
13 It ought to be based on a re-examination.
14 MR. BARRY:
A re-examination.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I am beginning to wonder about 16 cur whole approach to material accounting.
De are going to 17 he having a rulemaking, but on the other hand, the number of 18 facilities to which that vill appiv --
19 CHAIRMAN AFEARNE:
Is decreasing.
20 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKYs Ycu may want to handle it with 21 several licensing actions-22 CHAIRhAN AHEARNEs It scunds like standards approach to 23 waste management.
24 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
So, I would suqqest that we put 25 that on ice and think about it a bit.
i ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
24 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, I guess I would rather keep it 2 in the budget but think about it.
('
3 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I am willing to think about it 4 again, but you know, we struggled with that saf eg ua rds 5 information business, and every time you know, at times 6 there is an inclination to say, gee, what do we need that 7 fo r, then in two weeks, why, people are asking, and where 8 did the material from Export License Number so and so go 9 after it came out of Reactor X?
What do you mean, you don' t 10 know?
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I suggested a minimum, and take 12 another look at it.
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
We struggled back and forth and 14 decided ISIS -- the staff seems convinced they have to do 15 something other than what they have, and ISIS is the best 16 bet.
We are under way on it now.
I'7
- COMMISSIGNER GILINSKY:
I understand.
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You just don't want to come 19 around and take an arbitrary chunk out of the 1982 budget.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We can direct NMSS to come back for 21 a review.
j 22 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You.have taken eight out of it, 23 righ t ?
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What did you take out of IEE?
25 MR. BARRY:
About 3500,0000 of IEE in admin su ppor t.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, tNC.
25 1
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I wou'1d not do that.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs You would not do that?
(^
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs I would not do that.
(-
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I would not do that.
5 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs I would not do that, either.
6 MR. 3ARRY:
What was the last one?
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We don't have -- we don't have 8
COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Where would that have come out 9 had we agreed to take it out?
10 (General laughter.)
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We have split two to two.
12 MR. 3ARRY:
T' s t would come out of admin support that 13 ve have assigned to IEE in the field.
14 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY Is that covered anywhere in the 15 admin budget?
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
We have two kinds of admin 1'7 support.
One is headquarters, which takes care of 18 everybody, but we also have discrete admin suppor t for the 19 regional offices in support of the region program, and nov 20 throughout the year if they get short on admin su ppor t, we 21 can always finance it.
22 So far they have not, but at any ra te --
23 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
If this were your final budget, 24 and this is what you were going to get from the Treasury, 25 that would be one thing, but you are now at a stage where ALCERSCN REPCRTING CCM2ANY, INC.
26 I when we get through with this --
2 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Ckay.
You vin.
3 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I see revelvs up the line.
We
- k. s 4 are going to end up with an appropriations bill screening 5
COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Let me ask you about this $53 6 million admin.
What l's the bulk of that increase?
7 MR. BARRY:
In admin?
8 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Yes, there is a $1C million 3 increase, a 20 percent increase.
In fact, that is probably 10 the biggest increase of anything.
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Okay, about 52 million of that 12 is the NMSS ISIS.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Okay, $2 million is
_IS.
What
(
14 else?
15 MR. 3ARRY:
You have got -- just a second you have 16 just a million increase in -- well over 52 million, 17 probably about $2.3 million in communications.
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Computer costs?
19 MR. BARRY:
You have computer costs of 20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
1.7.
21 MR. RARRY:
-- about 1.7, yes 22 CCMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
900 in documents.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It is an increase -- that was the 24 1.7.
25 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
'?.
ALCERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
27
,.~
l COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
You have -- oh, $500,000 in 2 training.
You have got $3 00,0 00 eq uipm en t purchase.
You 3 have $200,000 in printing and reproduction.
In other words, 4 you have got about $3 million in just cost of living.
You 5 add them all up, and you are up to $2 million.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Of which you can squeeze one.
7 MR. BARRY:
Which we are reducing one some place, 8 reducing one some place.
9 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Take one out of the distribution 10 by the comptroller, and the EDO. So that brings you down to 11 eight you are down to 560 -- 626.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE.
I would make --
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRII:
I am willing to take out the six
(
14 and make it 15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Where would you take it?
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs The six dolla rs I'7 (General laughter.)
18 CCMMISSIONER HINDRIE:
I am just trying to even things 19 up.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
An ythin g else?
21 (No response.)
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs I move we approve that for this 23 tentative remark.
We have a reclama tomorrow.
24 COMMISSIONER RR ADFORD :
You all would leave research --
25 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I don't know how to cut research any ALCERSON REPORTI
, iNC.
J 28 1 further.
That is, in the sense of focusing on what programs 2 to cut it on, and realistically, without a director, I am a 3 little uncomfortable with turning back to them to say, all s
4 right, now, here is X dollars, you mark it up.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs Let's see.
Among the OPE 6 options, Dennis, can you talk a little bit about the last 7 two, four and five, which seem to focus on some of the cuts, 8 at least, on siting, environmental, and fuel cycle decision 9 units?
Do you have a feel for what we vould be losing?
10 MR. BATHBUN Between the two, the $35 million and wha t 11 ve had?
12 COMMISSIONE3 3RADFORD:
Let's see.
Well, Options Four 13 and Five totalled ruch lover than that.
That is 520 million 14 cr so.
But among the things that they did was to hold down 15 th os e two decision units.
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You are down to Stage 6,
- Peter, 17 on Bob Budnitz's list.
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I am not talking about the 19 bottom line, I am talking about the particular wrinkles 'in 20 the 0?E formulation.
T MR. HATHEUNa Yes, sir, and what ha pens there is, we 27 " cat into the RES budget at the v..isicel guidance level of 23 5217 million, and we wo rked th e problem two ways on Four and 24 Five.
Cne way assumed operation of LOFT, not the so -called 25 phase out option that bob presented to the EDC in the ALLERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY, lNC.
29 m
1 original, which would have ecst $35 million, and then $48 2 million to run it in 1982, and the Option Four assumes that
(~
3 one will run the 10FT a s they proposed, and fund the other
(
4 the other light water reactor research decision units as 5 ther proposed -- I am sorry, as the EDO had proposed after 6 hearing the office request.
7 Then taking the $165 million out of $217 million, we 8 attempted to make some kind of an allocation, a proration, 9 if ycu will, among the other decision units in siting, 10 environmental, vaste management, safeguards, and systems 11 reliability.
If you run the LOFT, you wind up assuming some 12 preference f or waste management and systems reliability with 13 very little to spend in safeguards and fuel cycle saf ety on 14 the other hand, and siting and environmental on the other.
15 If you elect to phase out the LOFT in FY 82, why, yo 16 have an additional $13 million living within the teel l'7 quidance to spend among those options.
It still struck us 18 as being fairly mi se rly.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I think I am asking this 20 question the wrong way.
As I understand it, within those 21 two areas at the moment we have $14.2 million, and $10.7.
22 MR. RATHBUN:
I am lost.
23 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD.
If we approve the budget as 24 proposed on today's sheet, the 239 -- 235 25 MB. RATH3UN:
237.
ALCERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
30 1
CCMMISSIONER BRADFCRD:
237.
Okay.
2 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs Except the way to think of it is 3 235 against the decision units, because the gas was not in 4 there.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Hight.
6 MR. RATH3UNs I have a feeling I know what you are 7 going to ask me. What are the program differences?
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't think they can tell.
9 MR. RATHBUN:
I am sorry, sir.
I plead ignorance.
The 10 difference between -- what one buys with the f unding of 11 those decision units as they are.
12 COMMISSIONER BRADFCRD:
What struck me was in the OPE 13 memo it said that.the pressure on those areas seemed to be a 14 gressure on lower priority items in terms of the PFFG, and I 15 take it also the action plan efforts and directions, and it 16 seemed to me if we were in a tight-fisted mood and took 17 another $5 million there and directed tha t they come out of 18 those two areas, we vculd probably be doing the least 19 possible harm.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Say that again?
21 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
If we took $5 million out of 22 th e research budget with direction th at they come from the 23 siting and environmental and safeguard and fuel cycle 24 groupings --
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It is fine with me.
ALDERSCN REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
~
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31 r
1 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
It seemed to me to be worthy of 2 inquiry, because the OPE memo had at least two options.
It 3 had them at substantially lower levels than we are approving
{.
4 them here, with the statement that that seemed to have less 5 of an impact than other configurations on the priority shown 6 in the PPPG and in the -- I guess 3ust PPPG.
I assume 7 action plan would flow from that as well.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I guess the problem I had is that as 9 far as the safeguards, that is one th a t I guess I am n'ot 10 sure how to respond to some of the Congressional requests 11 th a t we recently have -- directives to fund research in 12 sa f eguard s.
13 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKYa It is not clear to me'that we 14 spend so much money each year on safeguards research.
It is 15 no t clear to me we have ever gotten anythign for it.
The-16 spending of money in the laboratories, you know, in the old 17 days they did a rain dance.
Now we spend money in the 18 la bo ra to rie s.
19 (General laughter. )
20 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
I don' t mean this to get Joe 21 riled up.
22 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It is a different set of D laboratories.
24 (General laughter.)
25 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You only ger second o rder ALDERSON RE?CRTING COMPANY, INC.
32 c'
I responses from this kind of laboratory.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Peter has suggested taking five from 3 research in those terms.
s 4
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE4 Wha + is the Do you have a 5 run-up on what the Congressional vill turn eut to be in 1981 6 in those areas?
7 MR. BARRY:
Which areas, Commissioners?
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE4 Decision units, siting and 9 environment and safeguards and fuel cycle and research 10 programs aboard.
You see, we have a President's budget, but 11 ve have a Congressional action which is less than that by 12 524 million, which has to be distributed somewhere.
13 MR. BARRY:
In the research cut they give us absolutely 14 no guidance, and the only thing you can even -- by explicit 15 reasoning, when they put NMSS in high level vaste, you can 16 assume they also intended the research people in high level 17 waste to be in parallel with the NMSS program, but they did 18 not say so.
They just actually gave us nothing in th e 19 research mark other than down.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs Peter, let me see if I can 21 jockey into the final proposition.
t 22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Let me add one footnote to my l
23 perspective on it.
It seems to me what we are doing at this 24 poin t is essentially th rowing out something of a challenge 25 to each office head to come back and tell us that in fact it ALDERSCN REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
I
33 1 really is justified.
It it turns out that Bob is can come 2 in whenever it is, tomorrow or the next day, and say that 3 mine and OPE's instinctive lunge in those two a reas is not
{x 4
justified, then obviously it could go back in, but I make 5 the proposal because it seems to me that this is an area 6 where we challenge research for $5 million.
7 CHAI3HAN AHEARNE:
Joe, what is your proposition ?
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, my proposition would be to 9 add waste management to the other two, and rather than cut 10 our number at this point, ask Bob wha t about five in 11 somewhere in those three?
12 The reason I would add waste management is that in 13 groping for some comparison between a reference point and
(
14 the proposed EDO sire budget, I have to go all the way back 15 to fisca l 19 8 0, b eca u se 19 81 is, yo u kno w, the Congressional 16 to ta l f or 19 81 is o nly, what, $5 million, Su million or $5 1'7 million more, and way under the President's budget that we 18 go t.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADE0HD There is such the greatest jump 20 in t h at area.
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
The point is, you were 22 going from something like 6.4 in 1982, an E00 proposal of 23 24.81n 1982, and it seemed to me that if you are going to 24 grill Bob on how strongly can you resist it -- resist a 25 challenge of $5 million in these areas, that here was an ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
34
(
1 enormous growth.
One, we have already lopped five out of 2 th e primary doors of vaste management, and I just -- you 3 know s
4 COMMISSIONER 3R ADFORD:
Sold.
5 COMMISSIONER HENDRII:
Rather than cut research's 6 number by five, why put that proposition to him separately?
7 It would be Part B of my proposal.
8 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
It is not a pro posi tion.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I tend to oc for making a cut, and 10 th en asking him to -- I mean, proposing a cut inherently in 11 the budge t cycle.
If you ask him, do you want to keep this 12 money, they are bound to come back and say, yes, we want to 13 keep it, so if you are really proposing to cut it, it ought
(-
14 to be proposed to be cut, and then th e y will come back and 15 argue why it should not be cut.
16 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORDa Yes, that is what I am saying.
I'7 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
That is what I would do.
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE By the way --
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I know he is going to come back 20 and say he vould like to keep it.
'4h a t I am saying is, he 21 has to convince me.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
All right.
I will buy the five 23 spread in to those three areas.
24 MR. BARRYs The siting decision unit, the safeguards 25 decision unit ALCERSON REPORTING CCMP ANY, INC.
35 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And vaste management.
2 MR. BARRY:
-- and the vaste management decision unit.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The five spread is up to him.
s 4
MR. BARRY:
Yes.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Okay?
Fair enough?
Joe?
6 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, you are already 7
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We have to get that word out.
8 COMMISSIONER HINDRII You are already way down belov 9 where I would like to be.
10 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Are they coming in with some papers 11 to mo rrow ?
12 MR. BARRY:
We are going to have to schedule them in in 13 the morning.
All ve need is -- who do you want to hear 14 first?
We have NNR coming in, NMSS, research, and IEE.
15 Those four are coming in.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Some may not want to.
Let's 17 see.
I thought 18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
IEE will definitely want to come 19 back.
NRR vants to come back.
20 MR. BARRYs Right.
21 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY :
The 1983 budget is just not a E real budget.
23 COMMISSIONER HENDRII:
Look, you had better have his 24 in.
You just decided to whack his safety tech two withcut 25 pa rticula rly knowing what it means.
He cucht to come down ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
36 Ma 1 and give us some idea what that means so we are sure we are 2 not def ea ting some major procurement that is essential er 3 so ma thing like th a t.
{~'
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I guess we can stagger them in on a 5 20-minute basis.
6 MR. BARRY:
Right.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I would hope that we do not go into 8 long, detailed discussions with this.
9 All right, why don't you -- It is up to us.
They can 10 he told they will have a short opportunity to present, and 11 th en they can --
12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What is the -- This is Tuesday, 13 righ t ?
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Tomorrow is Wednesday.
15 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE This is Belgium, so it must be 16 Tuesday.
You have the full day, don't you?
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I propose -- Why don 't we start at 18 9:30, and sta rt with IEE?
19 MR. BARRY:
Right.
20 CHAIR 3AN AHEARNE:
And then move to NRR.
They have the 21 simplest.
And then N3SS, 2nd then that research.
What I E would propose is tha t we hear th em, and then after we have 23 our final discussions.
24 MR. CORNELL:
All morning?
25 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
ALDERSON RE?CRTING COMPANY, INC.
37 1
MR. CORNELL:
You are thinking about 20 minutes?
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
Maybe these sof ties over here 3 vill __
(' '
4 MB. CORNELL:
You vield the ga ve l.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is a meaningless -- all right.
6 (Whereupon, at 4:04 p.m.,
the meeting was adjourned.)
7 8
9 10 11 12 13
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34 15 16 17 i
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