ML20033C145
| ML20033C145 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/18/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8112020729 | |
| Download: ML20033C145 (44) | |
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4; UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION g
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,yh COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISCLO UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE ACT OF:
Budget Session - Markup /Reclama, p.m. Session July 30, 1980 Pursuant to 10 CFR 9.108 (c), the commission, upon the advice of the General Counsel has determined that the subject transcript should be released'to the public in its entirety.
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I UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGUL ATORY COMMISSION 3
4 CLOSED MEETING 5
SUDGET SESSICJ - MARKUF/EECLAMA 6
7 8
Nuclear Seculatory Commission 9
Ecom 1130 10 1717 H Street, N.
W.
Il Washington, D.
C.
12 13 Tuesday, July 30, 1990 14 The Commicsion met, pursuant te no tice, at 2: 15 15 p,
16 BEFCEE:
17 JOHN F.
- HEABNE, Chairman of the nemmission 18 VICTCE GILINSKY, Commissioner 19 PETER A.
BEADFORD, Ccamissient 20 JCS EPH ". HENDRIE, Commissioner 21 22 23 24 25 ALCERSCN REPCRTING COMPAf4Y, INC.
400 VI AGINTA AVE. S.W., sNASH6NGTCN. C C. 20024 i202) 554-2345
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I NEC STAFF PRESENT:
2 L.
3: FRY, Comptroller 3
K. COENELL
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4 D.
R.tTHBUN 5
N. MONACO 6
W.
DI?2XS 7
8 9
10 11 12 1,f 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALOERSCN RE?CRTING COMP ANY, INC.
400 VI AGINTA AVE. S.W, WASHINGTCN. C.C. 20024 202) 554-2345
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CHAIEXAN AHEAENE:
Well, let's see if we can't
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bring this process to a close.
We have heard the reclamas.
3 Len, do you have any comments?
One of the issues that I 5
think we are wrcstling with is, are we being too tight.
I 6
would not expect a comptrollec to say, yes, we are, but 7
nevertheless, I will give you that opportunity.
Are we 8
being too tight?
9 MR. BARRYs I would just like to make one 10 observation about how tight is tigh t.
With few exceptions 11
-- when I say with f ew exceptions, where office directors 12 have by designed. educed a decision unit because they don't 13 feel that tha t much work is necessary in 1992 versus 1991
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14 Wi th few exceptions, there is not a decision unit in here 15 that does not increase in 1982 as compared to 1981, and of 16 course, some more than others.
17 I can't tell you you kno w, if you want me to 18 say, how about the factor of inflation, I can do it by each 19 individual decision uni t, but I have done it in total.
Even l
20 considering a3 percent inflation where it is app ropriat e, 21 program support, admin support, travel, and so on, and then 22 I h*ve retted out the travel, a $10 million increase in 23 travel, beca use tha t is to kae; us q0ing, rather than doing 24 l
more work related to safety.
'ow, there is some safety in 25 there, nuclear data link, and so on, but disregarding the ALCERSCN AEPORTING COMP ANY, INC.
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admin support increase, we still come up with about a T32 2 million net increase in our ability to do more work in 1982 3
as compared to 1991 over and above inflation.
O 4
CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs And that is at 9 percent 5 ' infla tion ?
6 ME. BARRY:
That is at 9 percent inflation.
I 7 can't tell you whether that is the right number or not.
In 8 some cases it is probably under, and in many cases it is 9 ovet.
So, I mean, that gives you some kind of f eeling of 10 the capability in 1982 to do more regulatory work than you 11 -- and I haven't factored in, for instance, like in 12 research, in LOCA and transit, where you had a $15 million 13 reduction, of course, you don 't defla te, so again, it 14 shouldn't be rider 132 mil _ ton worth of net gain to the 15 prog ram,
16 Now, that is not a big program gain, but that is 17 still T32 million over what we probably will get out of the M3 Conaress unless we have some luck with --
U3 CH AIRM AN AHEARNE :
Bill?
20 COMMISSIONER HENDPIE:
That is with regard to the I
21 current House mark?
22 "R.
BARRY:
Yes, sir.
So, instead of saying you 23 have reduced, you really ha ve limited the increase by sc 24 such.
25 ME. '~?CKS:
Well, I guess th e I keep coming l
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back to a point I made when I first started off.
The agency 2 has been throuch an awful lot in the past year..
We have 3
{3 been criticited for not doing a lot of things
'.at the 4
public, the Congress, and other people thought we should 5 have been doing.
When you have been through that sort of 6
rigor, you naturally are going to get an increase in 7
resource requirements.
8 The answer may be, well, go back and scrape out 9 the bottom and put the higher priority things on top.
That "3
is a longer term process than what we are facing today.
I 11 think there will be a lot of opportunities from this point
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12 on f or the guardian s of the taxpayers to take a whack out of 13 this budget, sc I would -- as I said, you are not being only 14 liberal with the agency, and you may be about right, but I 15 wouldn't go any deeper than what you have done, and I think 16 as a result of last night's work I would argue to come back 17 a little bit more, but I think you have got to keep in mind 18 your first job is to show that we have enough resources l
19 around to do the -- do the regulatory job.
20 It is ocing to cost more, but don't forget, we got 21 so me thing like 1,400 recommendations f or change fired at us E ovar the pa st year.
23 COMXISSICNER GILINSKY:
What about those items --
24
E. D:ECKS:
The i te ms ?
25 COMXISSICNER GILINSKY:
The one last ni;ht.
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MR. DIRCKS:
Well, one at a time, in th e re sea rch 2
area, I would ease up a bit on what you did to them..
I 3
think the SAFER program has been cut back, and I will be the 4
first to admit that over the past years, when I was head of I
the budget review committee, I did always dive into SAFER, 6 because it was a nice, sof t cushion to land on, and you 7
whack era it.
They are down pretty low, and I do think 8 in th( SAFER relationship now with NMSS they do sort of 9 reinforce one another's requiremente.
10 COMMISSIONER GIiINSKY:
We didn 't hear Jack 11 saying anything about that.
I mean 12 MR. DIRCKS:
He would have said it.
He said it to 13 7e have had him in, I think, Kevin, when you were us.
14 reviewing the'research budget, Iack had a heavy hand in tha t 15 area.
16 MR. CORNELL:
At least from our perspective, 17 probably Jack did a more thorough job on looking at the 18 research budget than an r of the other program managers.
19 The. had a long series of meetings on it back and fo rth.
I 20 suspect he wasn't even awa re of the cut that research took 21 yesterday afternoon.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You mean, not aware today, 23 when he was up here?
24
,R.
CCRNELL:
Richt.
They were done at the last 25 minute.
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I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is your 2 recommendation then?
3 r^s MR. DIRCKS:
In total dollars?
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
5 MR. DIRCKS:
Well --
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, as far as this 55 7 million --
8 MR. DIRCKS:
I would nick them for 52 million or 9
53 zillion, but I wouldn't go "3
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So you would cut it in 11 half ?
12 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, I would cut it in half.
On 13 the --
4 14
'M R. CCRNELL:
.The other thing yo tt might want to 15 think ahout, the SAFER division from 1991 to 1982 has not 16 grown, or has not grown very much, and that is the area that-17 you cut back.
If you look at a lot of the other divisions, 18 decision units, research staff, sone of hem have doubled, 19 so you =ight want to keep th a t in mind if you want to cut M that.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY.
Well, do they have enough 22 to spare there so that the y can accommoda te *:ia t !? million U reduction?
24 MR. CCRNELL:
I think if you gave them flexibility 25 over the whole program, possibly what I am worried about ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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is, the SAFER division has not grown, and the others are 2
growing.
3 COM5ISSIONE3 GILINSKY:
Yes, Bob said something em 4
about that vouldn ' t be the way he vould do it.
5
- 33. DIRCKS:
If you gave his the 3 5 million cu-t, 6 he would prefer to distribute it as he saw fit, which I 7 think is a good general rule.
Unless you want-to keep 8 certain things going, here is your cut, or close down 9 something, but if you have a particular concern -- I think U3 when you come to Stello's budget, the argument, I think the 11 argument is very strong, as Joe made, that 35 people out of 12 1,000, you can certainly dc.
If the Commission says do it, 13 they can find 35 people within that 1,000 staff to carry out
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14 this cut.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, it isn't even 35.
16 It is probably 25.
17 HR. DIECXS:
Wha te ve r it is.
It is in the U3 thirties.
19 CHAI2%AN AHEAENE:
Let ne suggest 3111, you can 20 comnent as we ge down each cne, but let me start with
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2".
We had taken 52 million out of rsfety technology in a cut l
22 last night.
What is your view about that?
23 COMMISSIONIR GILINSKY:
You are asking him?
- Yes, 24 let 's hear f ro?. him, and th-n ve can dispose of the matter?
25
!E. DI? CX S :
I think that the safety technolecy, ALCERSON REPORTING COMA ANY, INC.
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3 as you pointed out earlier, was a program that just was put 2
toge ther recen tly.
Your guess in this area is as good as 3
y anyone, and my guess is good, too.
I don't think Harold was 4
going to figh t ve ry strongly on the 52 million cut, and he 5 could basically absolve it, but le' me make the general 6
statement again tha t when this budget goes f orward, 7 especially in this climate, it is going to-be -- no matter 8 what we go in with, it is going to be cut, an d cut hard - and 9 I don't believe in building any fat into the budget, but I 10 don't believe in letting it ride through using every Il hones: means we have to come in with a trim, streamlined 12 budger.
13 In all honesty, it is a good budget.
It is going i
k 14 to be sliced.
15 MR. CORNELL Another stitistic you might want to 16 keep in mind, in the last two
- ars, OMS and Congress have 2
17 cut us about 12 percent, if we really have a total.
.I t has 18 been -- Last year it was 5 percent by 0M3 and 7 by 19 Congress.
The year before it was 6 and 6.
20 CHAIEMAN AHEAENE:
By last year, are you talking 21 about 1979 or 1980?
22 MR. CCENELL:
I s-talking about FY SC and FY S1.
23 CHAIPMAN AHEAENE:
Ey Congress, then, you are 24 talking about the House mark.
25 MR. CCENELL:
Picht.
And not including the l
ALCEBSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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reclama.
~If we get the reclama, it will be slightly less.
2 But if you -- taking Len's figure that we have a 6 percent 3
growth, and if you assume that we are going to be cut 12 v
4 percent, that means we are going to and work with what we 5
eventually end up with, it means we are going to have a 6 6
percent decline in our program, 532 million, which is --
7 3E. BARRYs That is a $32 million program growth 8
after you _2btract out inflation.
9 MR. CORNELL:
What percentage does that come to?
10 MR. BARRY:
Pardon me?
11 MR. CCBNELL:
What percen tage does that come to?
12 5R. ri A RRY :
That is about 10 percent, 10 or 12 13 p e r r er.t, whi;h is no t a bi; growth.
14 COMMISSIONER HENDRII:
But you want to keep in 15 mind tha t that is $32 million over the House appropriations 16, ark for 1981.
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes, it is $32 million -- it is 18 a going in number as opposed to a coming out nunber.
19
- 53. CORNELL:
Yes, that is the point.
3 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
And you remember that we 21 vent to OMB with a number that was substantially nicher than U that and came out of OME and into th e ? resident 's
- budget, U T17 million -- that of the 32, why, 17 we requested, that 24 is, we were in at f340 -- $345 million in the ? resident's 25 budget, so the growth -- ha:f of th e $32 million Lan ALDERSON AEPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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co==ents on is getting back to where we were where we 2
were a year ago, in terms of --
3 rm.
MR. BARRY:
If it came out of the President's 4
budget, the u68 that they approved, we only had about a 10 5
percent -- about a 110 million --
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
'4 h a t did we go in last 7 year at?
8 53. COENELL:
345.
Ch, go in.
I don't know.
9
- 53. BARRY:
You mean, to OMB?
I don't recall it.
10 Do you have that, Nick?
11 CHAIRMAN AHEASNE:
I think I have that here.
Go 12 ahead.
A number larger than 345.
t 14 (Pauce.)
15
- 23. CCENELL:
At CMS?
'4 hat did
.e submit to OM3?
16 '4e were iust curious, idle curiosity, about the loss rate at 17 these various weigh stations.
I am not sure.
Ma y I comment 18 on that?
19 CHAI5 MAN AHEAENE:
Yes.
20 ME. CCHNE;L:
My riew is that if you look a t NR3's 21 dollars solely in the context of safety t ech n olog y, the 1
l 22 decisien unit, that the T2 million cut holds them back a 23 bit, but it doesn't strike ne as having cut through flesh, i
l 24 destroyed tendons, and bit deep into the bone of the l
25 organiration.
But I look at it in th e sense that ! said on i
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMP ANY. INC.
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I a couple of occasions here more in terms of the overall 2 offica technical support resource to deal with their 3 assorted problems, and from that standpoint, rather than any _
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4 particular meri: I see in keeping safety technology where C they had come out undet the EEC mark, I suggest that you 6 stick back 51 million or 51.2 million or something like that.
7 My tentative recommendation was to end up taking 8 about 750 out of it, but I would put a little bit back in, 9 but on the basis of main ta inin g the overall office rather
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10 than the safety technology.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Len, do you have the --
12 MR. SARRY:
Yes, OMB took out about T26 million.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What did we go in to OME with ?
14 MR. BARRY:
We vent in with 494 15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What did we go in with on 16 prog ra m support?
17 MR. BARRY:
Well, I as not sure, because about $2 18 million of that 26 ve re peccle reduction in cost, but I 19 don't know how much was program support versus admin.
We i
20 probably lost --
21 CHAIRMAN AHEASNE:
Well, if we cam.e out at 22 MR. 3ARRY:
-- 368.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
So we lost 26, you are saying, 24 30 ve 3,y have gone in a t s ime thing like 340.
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25 cog 37ssgc3gg gg39, IE We couldn't.
Ne came out 4
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with 345.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Oh, I was looking at the cther 3
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__.Jhat did we come out with in program support?
! was 4
looking at the wrong one.
5 MR. 10NACO.
274.
6 MR. CCHNELL:
Well, let's see.
If you add prcgram 7
support, equipeent, admin support, and travel te get all of 9
those non purse combin things, why, you get 5344,940,000 it 9
sa y s
.'t e re.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Oka y, so 345, Nick, we came'out 11 with.
And ycu takq 9 percent of that, on top of that, that 12 is ibcut 380..
Not quite.
And that would compare with the 13 382 we were planning to go in with here.
I was just trying
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14 to see whether we were -- if we inflated what we went in.
2 15 with, OME would come out about where we are nov.
16 MR. CORNELL:
Le t 's see.
Which 382?
I've got 17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Vic, what do you think about 18 NRR7 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't -- I guess I 20 wouldn't I mean, we want to'come back and look at the 21 to ta ls, but I wouldn't at this poin t make a change in th a t.
U CHAIRM AN AHEARNE :
Wait, this is when we are 23 looking at totals.
24 CCMMI55IONER GILINSKY:
Well, but we are going 25 office by office.
We have to ta ke a final look,- but at this ALDERSON REPORT 1NG COMPANY. INC.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Add anything back in?-
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don 't think so.
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4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
To keep the $2 million out.
5 Peter?
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I would put one back.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I will go with one back.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
That would run it up to 9
$3u,782,000.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Ckay, the next reclama we have 11 is IEE.
Vic?
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would like to hear from 13 Bill on it.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am sorry.
I thought you had 15 spoken on IEE.
16 MR. DIRCKS:
Well, here is another one, the real 17 issu e is the people num ber, and then the issue there is the 18 resident program, and I guess my view is the same as we just 19 talked about.
If you want to keep them at 71010 and say, do 20 this other thing, I think they would have the ability to do 21 it.
But when ycu say that, they are goin g to have to cut U into, I think, the regi0nal program. I think.
They could 23 also go into headquarters.
24 I menn, I don't have -- whenever we look at ICE, v
25 we :lvays come away with the feeling that, my God, what are I
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2 (General laughter.)
3 MR. DISCKS:
So, how I would come out is, keep
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th em a t $1010 and say, here is how the Commission comes out 5 on the re sid en t program.
We want you to do it.
6 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I co uldn 't go the 1049 in 7
1982.and 40 more in 1983, but I must say I was inclined to 8 chuck a few more in and tell him under the sort of general 9
guidance offered and welcome to come and discuss it further, 10 to be quite clear on it, to keep trying to move toward the ll increased presence goal.
12 I continue to look at, you know, sort of the 13 rudimentary arithmetic, which says that even in the 14 asyntotic state, something like -- something like, well --
"I CHAIEHAN AHEARNE:
The trouble is, Joe, you have 16 taken only the first term, rnd you think that it is a 17 convergent series.
"I COMMISSIONE3 HENCRIE.
' Jell, yes, I know.
At the 19 level of detail on staff strengths that we necessarily have 20 to deal here.
However, you know I guess I woul1 need a 21 clearer enuncia tion of the second order terms to be sure 22 that I believe they were necesaary.
Even for the asymptotic Z3 case, why, something around 290 peo ple in th e resident 24 procram provide two people on every site, 29 -- 29 or 30 29 con =truction and fuel cycle resident inspectors, and u0 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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percent overhead for clerical and headquarters support fo r 2
that grcup, and you -- if ycu -- at a strength of 1,000 and 3
em, some, you can just about do that and still have that office
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am not sure then why we 6 wouldn't stick with the 1010.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, primarily because 8
there may be -- th e re m a y b e a perturbation which one would 9 later decide wasn't all tha t' great at 1010 that you could 10 relieve that relatively modert further number.
If ycu leave Il it at 1010 and say, keep on with the general goal of tve, 12 then he may have to want some other things a little narder 13 in order to have people in the pipeline and station --
14 CCMMISS!ONER BRADFORD:
It happens at the next 15 part of the pipeline.
I am thinking about, how this is set 16 up, like a boa constrictor.
He takes in a large number of 17 peocle i_ the resident program.
They stay there fo r th ree
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18 o r #1ve years, and then each year after that, one third or 19 one fif th of them pass on into his regular organiration.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDEII:
Well, it is not a bad 21 COMMISSIONER BRADF0ED:
Dcas he in fact have that 22 kind cf need for them ad infinitum?
23 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE:
Well, I thit.k we have a 24 need for them in the agency sense.
3 COMMISSIONEE ERADFCED:
One way or anoth=r.
ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
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COMMISSIONER HENDEIE:
You remember back at 2
various stages when we talked about forming the resident 3
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program, we have talked about c of the things that ought 4
to be built in as a sort of attraction to people, and also 5 as a mechanism of helping to f amiliarire our peo ple, 6
particularly the young ones who don't come out of the 7
industry side with the hardware, is, af ter a tour of duty as 8 a resi* ant three years or whatever you like, that then you 9
reg a rd those gradua ting residents as prime candidates for 10 filling other jobs, headquarters, and in other offices.
Il Now, if they turn over every three -- if you've 12 got an asymptotic group -- t ak e th e whole 300, including the 13 overhead staff, and you turn a third every year, why, it 14 says, here co me 100 people, most of them professionals, but 15 some support staff, because I included the overhead, and 16 what is the agency attrition rate?
17 The agency overall attrition rate only has to be 3 18 percent to accommodate 100 a year, and it is substantially 19 higher th an tha t, so that it seems to me tha t just the 20 general -- the way the numbers fit together is not 21 unreasonable with regard to what do you do with the 22 residents after they have resided.
23 COMMISSIONE? EEAD?ORO:
Bill, are you saying that 24 it is in your view not an unreasonable instruction?
I am 25 in clin ed in Joe's direction, perhaps another 10 paople, but ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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l are you saying in' your view that it is not an unreasonable 2 instruction to say stay at 1010, and we still would expect 3
you to maintain these people per se?
7, MR. DIRCKS:
Whether it is 1010 or 1020 or 1000, 5
number along this range is a good enough guess, and I any 6 don't 7
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Remember, we are speaking about 8
one -- these deltas a re 1 percent of his strength.
9 MR. DIRCKS:
And he can manipulate people.
God 10 knows how many man years we have had down here on the 11 nuclear data link.
We must have three to five people on 12 th at one, and we don't seem to have.any progrest made.
13 There is enough flexibility, I think, whether you feel more
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l'4 comfortable at 1020 than you d; at 1010, if you feel more 15 comfortable, then give it 1020, but I don't think it matters 16 progr a m -wise.
I'7 No w, if you tre concerned about a cut, a slash 18 from this point on, you figure they may taka 10 or 20 people 19 off the 20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE.
Well, tha t is one of the 21 things that I have got in mind.
As I have said before, if 22 this were the final determination on this budget, and these U
were the resources the agency was going to have, why, !
24 think I would want to sit down with Vic and understand 25 rather more clearly just how h2dly th e 1010 was a pinch, but ALCERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
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you know, there are going to be two more, three more sets of 2
people up there with knives, tnd what you are going to end 3
up with, I as afraid, is that the outcome of the 1982 budget may then be an ICE strength which in fact doesn't permit the 5
resident manning.
6 Nov, if that is the v.t11 of the Congress, duly 7
I profess to be a villing servant of co n rid e red, you know 8
the system, but ! vouldn't propose to volunteer that 9
situation, and I would be inclined 10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Io go to 1020?
11 COMMISSIONER HENDEIIt Well, you know, if you were 12 s=ilinq vhen I say higher numbers, why, I would go to 1030, 1
13 but --
14 (General laughter.)
15 COMMISSIONER HEND3II:
you know, since you are 16 frowning and grumpy, why, I will propose 1020 -- 1020 and 17 1050 for the two years, snd see how that sits with you.
j 18 CHAIEMAN AMIAENE:
How about 1020 and 1030?
19 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE:
Well, that is not the vorst 20 thing in the world.
If I couldn't get 20 and 50, why, I 21 vould be glad to compromise.
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23 COMMISSIONE3 GILINSKY:
I guess I would stick with 24 these numbers.
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COMMISSIONEH BRADFOSD:
I would use 1020 and 1040, 2 and I think I would also add back in the 500,000 that Vic 3
1 was talking about.
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, but he has now gotten an 5
extra ten people.-
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFOSD:
That depends on how he 7 uses it.
8 CHAIBMAN AHEAENE:
He said that he was going to 9
have to take sone people out, and so he wanted about 10
$100,000, and $100,000 on contract would buy you about five 11 or seven people.
If you are giving him an extra ten, I 12 don't see why he needs $500,000.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Because I have got the ten r
14 headed fo r the re sid e n t s, and we would like to have another 15
$500,000 for -- to do that -- some of that inspection work.
16 I have wondered whether we couldn't buy it more efficiently 17 than having government types do it as a matter of fact.
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I wculd be glad to add 19 500,C00 to his programs.
20 COMMISSIONER 3RADF0ED:
Those five people, weren't 21 they cut in the EDC review?
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
U COMMISSIONER 3?ADFORD:
I agree.
We can tell him 24 to do it, but I think in terms of the pa ttern tha t you are 25 looking at, if all we did was add ten people back in, i:
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3 than the E00 's, sc unless we -- I wouldn't mind telling him to do it, but ! think that would have to be done.
5 Ctherwise, I don't see how he could meet the pattern of cuts 9
any other way.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEAl E:
The only thing that --
8 reluctantly I will go along with you, because I think the 9 Congress'is irresponsible this year, ;a r ticula rly th e 10 Ihe Park Co m mit t e e, as I say, I felt was just authoriring 11 irresponsible where they took the cuts, and if ther voted to 12-take the same approach next year, then there has to be 13 some --
1 14 COMMISSIONEE BR ADFORD:
I must say as I have 15 listened to the reclamas, to the extent that they are well 16 founded, I do ccme away with the perspective tha t we ate l
17 l
sort of the last line that is te* ling the rest of the world 18 what we think safety requires.
From then on, the mix is 19 really of people saying, here is what the overall pressures 20 of -- needs of the taxpayer, cr maybe you did say l
21 CHAIEMAN AHEARNE:
Okay, 1010, 1020, 1040, and l
22 $500,000.
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23 Ihe next was NMSS, where the reclama was focused 24 upon the T5 million.
Vic?
25 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
I would like to hear from ALDERScN RE?CRTING CCMPANY, INC.
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2 MR. DIR JS:
I won 't speak'as the NMSS 3
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4 CHAIRMAF AHEARNE:
Tha t 's all righ t.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
'Je wouldn ' t be able to 6 tell the difference.
j 7
(General laughter.)
8 MR. DIRCKS:
I agree.
It is th e s a m e.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Look at the side of the 10 :outh that he is talking about.
Il COMMISSIONER HENDRIIs Len, add the five in 1982, 12
$582 sillion for the program -- 1983.
So that makes it 13 28794 and 241, right?
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs By the way, before we get 15 to NMSS, our instructions on resident --
16 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Ought to be the philcsophy, I 17 think, th at Joe laid out in the earlier mee ting.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Right.
I am 19 intarrupting.
I didn 't mean to disagree with Jce.
I am 20 it sounded to me -- what he was sayinc, it sure that 21 sounded as if t wo would.be the exception on units and sites, 22 and what I understood us to be saying was that one would be D
th e excep tion, but we were allcwing that flexibility.
24 CH AIRM AN AHEARNE :
Yss.
I think that someone 25 cucht to have written down -- Ienni s, could you make sure ALCERSON REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
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Joe outlined a philosophy tha t 2
MB. RATH3UN:
Yes, sir, I remember.
I will go 3 back and look at the transcript.
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4 COMMISSIONER HEND3IE :
Yesterday's transcript may 5 have --
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Because I think that is very 7
im po rtan t, to make sure th a t gets brought out.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
And let's make sure he 9 understands that one of our concerns was that parhaps we 10 were proceedincJ a little too fast on the pace of putting 11 people on sites, and that we are prepared to live with 12 somewhat less site representation in the interests of a 13 little better training and preparation of' people going out K-1-4 there, and so there may.he some stret.ch out in the manning 15 of these sites, and tha t is okay.
16 MR. RATHBUN:
Yo u will accept some merely for 17 better quality programs.
Is that what you a re saying?
l 18 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE:
Yes.
I think clearly --
l 19 because there were clea r concerns up and down the table l
l l
20 about, you know, people who were very nearly new hires and l
21 then with a relatively few week preparation being fired out j
i 22 onto the site.
U CHAI? MAN AHEA2NE:
Okay, NMSS.
24 MR. DIRCKS:
Well, he emphasired a $5 million cut, l
25 and I -- and when you get into this a rea, it is a hard one I
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but on the other hand they may not succeed, and if they 5 don't succeed, those elements of the Congress, t en the 6
whole program, we will be the ones delaying the program.
7 I think $5 million is too deep, and if you want 8
to 9
CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
How would you feel about 72 10 milion?
11 MR. DISCKS:
Two would --
a cut of T2 million.
12 It is gatting to a point now where two wouldn't matter very 13 much, I think.
c 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I wonder if we could take 15 the research high level part and see how that fits together.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEABNE:
It certainly --
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Have you got any thoughts 18 on that?
19 MR. OIECXSs
'i ell, the two -- th e research money, 20 the research program had been put together with the with 21 the NMSS version, so you did have somewnat of an 22 interlocking program.
One was based on the other.
If you 23 -- if we go in and cut the NMSS version, too, I suppose it 24 does have some impact back on the research program.
I 25 haven'; really calculated -- I haven ' t even thought about ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
26-i,o--
1 what that would do with the research.
How much is that 2
research and waste money, something like $7 million, high 3
3 level waste?
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4 MR. CORNZlL:
Total waste is around 12, 13.
5 3R. DIRCKS:
We've got seven, I think, in high 6
level.
I don
- c think -- if you take two out of NESS, I 7
don't think it would impact a lot on the research program.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
NMSS.
Joe, any comments?
9 COMMISSIONER FENDEIE:
Yes.
I think that we would 10 make a
- as I indicated a t least in part yesterday, I think 11 ve would make a considerable mistake if we allowed w ha t we 12 thought to be the progress of a needed and effective program 13 in waste management to be deflected by what seems to me to 14 be a set of political hostage taking which long before we 15 and our staff have to sit down with the actual 1982 16 resources and do the work of the government and the people 17 is likely to be resolved and things going along.
18 You know, just in the last day we have seen a 19 grent surge of activity in the Ienate.
They are down there 20 voting 83 to a few -- to rero in favor of great compromises 21 between, you know, these three groups, ainority, majority in 1
different committees, and by the time -- if they keep on on l
D that track, why, I think some of these other things where l
24 the Appropriations Committee in effect.has been applying l
t 25 some pressure by cutting some budgets, I think that will all ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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i.e-- 26 I get washed out. 2 I would hate to have us going forward into the' 3 President 's budget with a set of 1982 and 1983 numbers.which ~ 4 then attempted to conform.to that perturbation and are just 5 no longer germane because we will have -- you know, we will 0 never be able to go to OhB, you know, the first of January 7 and explain how it was all a great mistake, and now things 8 back on course, and we -- you know, no, no,-no, they are 9 von't listen to you. They are at the printers. '10 It is like our people. Once it.goes to the 11 printer, it doesn't matter what you do. 12 So, I just would move ahead. As I look at the
- 13. high level waste, we went in and got out of OMS for the 1981 s
14 budget a program support level of $10.6 million. That is 15 what the EDO ma rk is for 1982, and I -- 16 MB. RATHEUN Dr. Hendrie, before you go too far 17 on this, I am afraid I am about to see $2.3 million 18 evaporate before my eyes. In the morning discussion 19 ye.7:erday, bearing in mind that the EDO request or 20 recommendation was 527.3 millica, you decided at that time 21 to co with 325 million. Then, in the afternoon, in 22 reaction, and being horrified at the to tal agency, you 23 suggested a 35 million cut further. 24 So, the total is 57.3 million, and I think that -- 25 and then wh en ::hn came down anc talked about that, I think ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,
+ ~ _, h e 9 e I I he was really only talking about the five million.- 2 MR. DIRCKS: He only focused on the five. 3 fs COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: What I am saying in my \\;' 4 proposal is that I am inclined to go back and go for the 5 dolla rs. 6 C:1AIENAN AHEARNEs Which dollars? 7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: The EDO dolla rs in this 8
- cage, 9
CHAIEMAN AHEARNE: $27.3 million? 10 COM3ISSIONER HENDEIE: 527.3 million. I would 11 stick with the -- Let's see. The people business, we had it 12 in mind -- 13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: You said to add 20 into the b 14 fuel cycle. 15 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE: It is -- on the people 16 business, we are working off 297 -- let's see. Nov -- who l'7 is the guy who hasn't been able to quite staff up? 18 CHAI? MAN AH EARNE : Cunnincha=. 19 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: This isn't the one. 1 20 MR. BARRY: Yes. As 3111 says, it is fuel cycle. 21 COMMISSIONER HINDFIE: That has had t" rouble 22 keeping up to their levels. Ckay. Whereas Martin has been 23 able to keep his -- My inclination is to sort of po bark to 24 where we were in the mornin;. 25 CHAI2 MAN AH EA E NE : In the morning, we were at 25. as ALDERSON RE?oRTING COMPANY, INC. "J5TAJBuC~MN
28 I COM3IESIONER HENDRIE: No, to go back to the 345 2 in the EDC dolla rs, and if you can't sto=ach that, why, I 3 ~s vill wave my arms over going back to the morning. It could i 4 be 25 to 25. 9 COMMISSIONER CILINSKY: I guess I would go back to 6 our morning number. 7 CHAIRMAN AREARNE: O f 25. Reter? 8 COMMISSIONER READFORD: I would have gone partway 9 back to the 25. If it is the consensus, I would follow it, 10 but I would be happier with 23. 11-CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: You were the one who went lower 12 than that, so would you go 23? 13 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY: When you were saying T2 ( 14 million -- 15 MR. DIRCKS. No, I was focusing on the two out of 16 $5 million. I was not -- 17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You wouldn ' t go further? 18 MR. CIRCKS: No, I wouldn't. 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER HENDRII: 523 million is a 74.3 21 million reduction. 22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Now, wait, let's get clea r. 23 When I asked you whether you would be willing -- how about 24 two, were you takinc two from 27, or two from 25? iv l 25 MR. CIRCKS: I was taking only -- I was focusing r l l ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. !NC.
I a. 29 (N I only or. the $ 5 million. I would take half of that, so I 2 I would ta k e T2_million off the EDO would go back, and 3 mark. .k) 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: So you would end up with 5 $23 million. 6 MR..DIHCKS: $25 million. 7 COM8ISSIONER GILINSKY: Wha t? 8 MR. DIECKS: I would end up with $25 million. 9 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY: Well, that is what I-' 10 That is how I interpreted it. I am not sure that everything Il that has been said is consistent. 12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: So you would stick with ..t e 25. 13 MR. DIRCKS: Yes. What you were doing yesterday 14 was adding the cut in the sorning to the cut in the x-15 afternoon. It was a $7 million cut. 16 CHAIRMAN AHEASNE: Yes, it was. 17 MR. DIECKS: And I was not -- I didn't want a 57 18 million cut. 19 COMMISSIONE3 3RADFCBD: Is it your impression that l 20 John and Jack were speaking to a 35 million cut from 527 21 million? 22 MR. DIECKS: They thought that you cut them a 23 total -- 24 CCMMISSIONER ERADICED: They thought they were 25 t alk in g about 22 something. ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. tanzsmim
ag 30 1 MR. DIECKS: Yes. Ihey were focusing on it. They-2 thought you cut them 55 million. 3 CCEMIESIONES GILINSKY: I' guess I have to say I em 4 was impressed with Jack's presentation. He is one of the 5 people that I have reasonable confidence in. He spends the 6 money well. That is what budgeting is about. 7 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE: Sounds like a vote for 25 8 to me. 9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: All right, 25. Fortunately, I 10 will not have to defend this budget. 11 COMMISSIONIH HIND 3II: You keep saying that, and I 12 don't offer any challenge, because I don't want to upset 13 rou, hut I keep chuckling to myself. You do make a good set l# of charts and an ef f ective ;resentation. 15 MR. SARRT: Before you get to research, let me 16 int rject, OMB in 1981 reduced rrogram support by 525 17 million. Two millio n was in NMSS waste managemen t, high 18 level. $23 million was in research. $15 million of that, 19 about 15, was the ad vance reactors. T5 million was in LCFT, 20 and 52 million in equipment. 21 CFAIRMAN AHEARNE: Now, I know -- 22 MR. SAERY: That is what they took out. 23 CHAIEMAN AREARNE: Yes, I know. I went over and 24 argued with them about it. Of course, all those faces have 25 changed, too. ALOERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC. eM) VIRGINfA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 f 202) 554 2345
e c. 3i 1 Research. I guess where I would have come out on 2 redearch is, I would have put in one person for the gas, 3 since I think it is only f air that if we add money in, we gS v 4 would' add people in to cover. So I would have gone to 174 5 I would accept adding on as -- well, as I think we -- at 6 least I intended to do, just as last year, to have an item 7 saying that if there is a gas -- an advanced reactor 8 program, breeder program, then here is what it takes for the 9 NRC portion of it, and that would have been the $8 million 10 plus three people. Il I would still go with the LCFT closing out. 12 COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY: Are we on research now? 13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Yes. 14-COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I guess I would go with 16 the proposal to review LOFT. 16 COMMISSIONER HENDEII: I think that would be wise 17 in any case. 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I don't know what we do 19 about the numbers there. 20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Well, I think that really the i 21 question is, if you can count en that kind of a review being 22 comple ted on time 23 COMMISSION ER MENDEIE : But it only affects the 24 igo? budget. I was going to vcte to do the :: view and think 25 about it some more, but put the 59 million in in 1983 sc you ALCERSON REPCRTING COMP ANY, INC. I e rw vwrte m
.g 32 l (' . were covered. If you found out that you wanted to curtail 2 it at the end of 1982, why, you take it back out or shift it 3 to something else. 7, (' 4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Of course, we had a review 5 group reviewing it. It is called the ACES. 6 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: Well -- 7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: The graduate students were 8'about to descend on us again. I would go with the review 9 group, too, but I think I would leave the money out, for 10 basically the reasons that John advanced the last time we 11 talked. To the extent one wants to create a pressure for 12 other possible sources of funding, this seems a relatively 13 painless way to do it. That is, th e review should be over I4 certainly by'this ti$e next year, but it could be a four to 15 six week -- 16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: How are you going to get 17 the money back into the Commission's presentation if we have 18 to make a two year au thorization presentation and put it in 19 the printer in two weeks ? The only way you are going to t 20 protect it then is to put it in now and note as part of your 21 letter that if your teview indicates the wisdom of a 22 phase-out in 1983 rather than 198u, that you would let them i 23 know what the a;propriation reduction or reprogramming would j l l 24 be, and I would much rather -- tryin; to go in there and 25 explain hcw you meant all along th a t if it came out this t l ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC. XM4 (%@2) G1R4-?B]4Ci
.g' a 33 I' I vay, ycu had to put another chunk it, it is a lot harder 2 than having it la there and saying, well, there is that 3 delta, we think, and if the review comes out a certain way 4'and we decide a certain way, then that is either 5 reprogrammed or a reduction. 6 People are always happy to see that kind of talk. 7 They sure aren 't happy to go the other way. 8 COMMISSIONER BRADF03D: Except that your chances 9 of coming up with other sources of funding, if our budget 10 earries -- 11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: I think -- I talked to the 12 Idaho people in the last 36 hours, and there is enormous 13 perturbation going on, that is spreading out overseas as a r 14 result of what seems to be the decision. I don 't think 15 there is much concern about getting people's attention. I 16 think there is some concern about configuring things at the 17 memont so that you have said, shut down, people becin to 18 reconsider their connections wi.th this program overseas, and 19 their connections with other programs, in which we have 20 joint safety research, because in some ways the 21 configuration in the U. S. and the other nations that are U cooperating in reactor safety research, we are carrying 23 obviously much the -- 90-odd percent of the costs. The 24 others are paying a few dollars a.cd getting some reasonable 25 access to some value, but there are some other programs ALCEr1 SON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC. GraugJdREN@JLYL mo%ggstfara r6)A 2T6R4 42n9Mm95m
3. 3q '-~' 1 where other people are carrying a heavier burden than we o 1 are, not that it is comparable to 90 percent in most cases, 3 but are carrying a heavy burden. 3 I think it is an unfortunate message to carry 5 forwarde as a result of a relatively short consideration 6 here. The Committee mucked around in it, and their vote, 7 which always goes back and forth between the people who see 8 the safety research in terms of needing some system scale 9 integral experiments and these people who, as I say, retired 10 at the heat power lab with two graduate students working on 11 an a ppara tus -- That discussion this year came out in favor 12 of the lab. It has come out in favor of the former in other 13 years. I don 't regard it as, you know, as a uniquely 14 compelling reason f or the Commission on essentially two 15 days' discussion to turn around a program which hns taken so 16 many years to put in place. 17 What was contemplated as a four or five year 18 experimental program, we are now talking about te rmina ting I 13 after three or three and a half. I think if you want to 20 contemplate an earlier termination, and it clea rly is in the 21 cards to consider it in view of the co'mittee's 1 U recommendation, that it is fair to make the examination, and 23 to let people know that it will have to see what seems best 24 overall, but in the meantima I would think it reasonable to 25 leave the progran acminally alive rather than nominally dead. 1 i ALDEASON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC. smetawmve
35 rm 1 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I would disagree with almost 2 all of your argument if it weren't for the fact that there 3 (]} is some slight chance of a two-year authorira tion. If it 4 was a one-year authoriration we are facing, I would disagree 5 with you, because then it 6 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: Well, then I would argue 7 with you on the basis that you were doing unnecessary 8 violence to the people in the program, and driving out 9 people who would otherwise stay, and if you want to keep the "3 program, you are going to be sorry you did that. On this 11 you are.just two-year authoriration, you go in and say 12 never going to be able to go back up the hill this way. 13 CHAIRMAN AREARNE: Okay. Yes. I.will buy that 14 argument, with two provisos. One is that we do establish a 15 review group to report by the.end of Cecember, and the Mi second, that there be -- and I am not sure whether research 17 is the right office, but there he an attempt to review with 18 foreign countries a nd perhaps with industry that there is a 19 real pctential that the progran be closed out unless there t 20 is a substantial funding contribution. 21 COMMISSIONE3 HENDRIE: I think th a t is absolutely i 22 ap p r opria te, and I would expand the list with whom one 23 discusses tnese points to include the Department of Energy, i 24 which is lately getting funded for increased water reactor 25 safety, and they might want to sit dour and consider that in l { ALDERSON REPORT lNG COMPANY, INC.
-,T,- = 36 ,~ 3 the whole world there is one integral system of any 2 appreciable site at all beycnd, you know, tubing size, in 8 3 (m which they can run some of the experiments that would v 4 support some of their work, and it seems to me, having the 5 facility the re, tha t' there is nothing which would constrain, a outside of just fitting together the experimental work, 7 their having some work there and our still having a little 8 work therre in an out year or so, and that th e net funding 9 for the program made it -- you know, it was useful to keep 10 the facility there. 11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Okay. As far as that goes, 12 that is locked in. Make sure you get the words. 13 All right, how about the rest of -- does anybody ? 14 disagree with adding the one person for the gas? 15 COMMISSIONER RRADFORDs No. 16 COMMISSION ER HEND RIE s No, I can't. I'7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Okay. How about the other? '4 e 18 had asked them to take another 55 million cut, or a 55 19 million cut. What is your feeling on that? 20 CO M M ISSIO N ER READFORD: I guess I would at least 21 be inclined to give them the discretion to spread it, or to 22 come back and reconfigure it, since Bob seemed to be saying 23 he had sone better ideas. 24 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: I think it is too much. If 25 you want to tri a little bit -- =y inclination would be to ALCERSCN REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
3. .du 37 I not take the five, but if you want to take some, why, I l' 2 would take some lesser amount and then let him spread it, 3 gg and I guess it goes in both years. Is tha t the idea? Ihat V 4 is the way you set up these sheets. 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I certainly don 't remember 6 what the successor allocsted, but I would like to hear from 7 3111. I wasn't strongly persuaded one way o r the other 8 about it. 9 M3. DIRCKS4 Well, I f eel comf ortable with the "3 amcunt we gave them. Bob had some arguments for that 11 prog ra m. I think -- I am quite sure I would go down -- I 12 wouldn't come to 35 million more off the amount you 13 originally gave them. i 14 C0!!ISSIONER HENDRIE. Once again, you remember 15 when Feter was suggesting the saf eguards and the 16 environmental fuel cycle, I said, look, why don't we throw 17 waste in, because that decision unit is the one that is 18 really rocketing up, and I certainly wouldn't confine it to 18 tho ce units, just as I am disinclined to handicap very much 20 the program, the kind of program thrust that we had going on 21 in the licensing office. I would not like to handicap this U one. 23 YE. DI?CKS: This is sort of the one that is being 24 shi# ted. y_ 3 CHAI? MAN AHEA2NE: Also, research is the one place ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. L
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30 I th rs t I would almost entirely buy Joe's argument that from 2 here on it is cut, because research really is where OMB will 3 take percentage cuts, where Congress will take percentage O 4 cuts, because until we have a lot more solid defense of the 5 way all of it fits togethtr, research plans that track, et 6 cetera, and even then it may still ha ve to take cuts, but l't 7 is going to De an area that they just slice away, so -- 8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And tha t is where we take 9 the cuts, when they give us just a -- 10 percent, we have 10 only one place to go for that money, and that is into Il research. 12 CHAIRM AN AHEARNE: So, I wouldn't have taken the 13 cu t. ( 14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Vic? 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It is all right with me. 16 CH AIRM AN AHEA BNE : Which? 17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: To restore that. 18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Any strong objections? 19 COMMISSIGNER READIORD: No, they aren't strong. I 20 had picked up on what I thought was a sensible suggestien 21 related to a couple of particular areas. As one diffuses it 22 over the entire package, then it in percentage terms is 23 hardly worth spending any time on it. My inclination wculd 24 have been to stay with it, but it is r.o t a big item. 25 CHAIRMAN AREARNE: Okny. ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC, airst.wnrsWMvv\\MF1JJ/LJW@Wr#C6T(LAf_vdr6pYugFC4W
s. '.~. 39 .~. r~ l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: We could end up by 2 restoring, Harold, $1 million. 3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: No, no, no., (], 4 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: On 237 and 248 5 COMMISSIC NER GILINSKY: And 3 ha t? 6 COMMISSIONER HENDFIE: 248. 7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I have 239. 8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: Well, if you are going to 9 keep the budget showing "3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Oh, I am sorry. Tou are right, 11 you are right, you are right. 12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: -- 59 million. 13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Yes, you are right. ,~ ( 14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: So it wculd be 237 and 248 15 and 174. I wouldn ' t make other changes to the most recent-16 nu n t ers, unless you want to put $1 million back in admin 17 support. 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What about admin? 19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: What about what? 20 COMMISSIONER GILIhSKI: Admin. 21 COMMISSI.ONER 3RADFORD: Do you want to put it back 22 or take more out? 23 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: I wouldn't change it. 24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You were saying, th o ug h 25 questioning some of the systems that have been developed for -f ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. u.
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s 40 I tracking this and that. Can .e Have we got to look at 2 all this stuff or can we' take -a look at all that? I mean, 3 it seems to be -- it isn't just the cost of the system. It .({} 4 seems to be tying people up rather than helping them. ] 5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: It is the cost of the systems 6 in a different way from what one no rmally means. It is the 7 cost of having the system. 8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It is the cost of having 9 th e system, yes. 10 MR. DIRCKS: There has to be some system. Bob 11 comes in, and we have had these -- First o f all, I 12 sympathire with Bob Budnitr, because I was on the receiving 13 end of it for a year, and I know what it.is like to be 14 tracked on items that you as program director would never 15 even think about, because it is such detail that is picked 16 up cy analysts who are looking at time cards very far remote l'7 from the program. It is silly to track in that detail. So, 18 we have been working on -- 19 COdM?SSIGNER HENDEII: I know where you can find 20 some st?ff. 21 MR. DIECK-S : But on the other hand, you know, 22 something has to be tracked. There has to be some measure 23 of input versus output. Industry . oesn 't do this, because 24 they look at profi and cost of profit. l l 25 cg3133Ay a g g'A F N E : Yes, but we r ea lly have gottan ALDERSCN REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
an. 41 I to the poin t where we have an artificial collection of input 2 data, and then we turn around and at times tend to treat it as new real data that is'a measure of the output. r 3 v 4~ MR. DIRCKS: That is the problem, and then you get 5 an analyst somewhere based on this artificial data writing 6 very succinct condemnations of the program, saying, it looks 7 like 55 man yea rs went into this thing, and no product came 8 out, or you 've cot 300 percent overhead. It is little 9 comments like that that come back to haunt you. 10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Is there some way we can 11 take a look at all this and simplify these-systems? 12 MR. CORNELL: I think you might want to use the 13 agency study that Congress told us to do as a mechanism, 1-4 have this be one part of that. Tell them to look at the 15 tracking systems we have. 16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: You mean th e m anda ted 17 management study? 18 MR. CCRNELL: Yes, the management study. 19 COMMISSIONER HENDFIE: Actually, that micht turn 20 out to be the most useful part of the management study. 21 MR. DIRCKS: Well, I think that that is how I 22 would lik e to use the management study, to focus on some 23 real problems, and not one of th e se -- 24
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CORNELL: Right, rather than lecturing all of 25 us on how to be smarter, have more fo resich t. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
4>. d2 f I MR. DIRCKS: Not only these -- to sort of isolate 2 -- The procurement process is one, the tracking projects is 3 another one. There are several on th e pe rsonnel system. 4 Are we -- Do we tie ourselves up in knots along those 5 lines. There is a whole series of the way that the agency 6 operates, and I think it could stand a good shaking out. 7 MB. CCENELLs That is a good thought. 8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Anything else on the budget? 9 Len, do you'have anything else? 10 MR. BARRY: Tomorros ve will provide all of you a 11 summary sheet on where we are, and break it do wn in 12 sufficient detail so you can see it. 13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: All right. Very good. 14 ('4h er eu po n, at 3 :15 p. m., the meeting was 15 adjourned.) 16 17 18 19 20 I 21 22 23 24 25 ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
<,e 4 /^ NUCLEAR REGULATORY CONIISSION This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the v in the matter of: BUDGET SESSION - MARKUP /RECLAMA - Date of Proceeding: July 30, 1980 Docket Number: Place of Proceeding: Washington, D. C. were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript therecf for the file of the Ccamission., Suzanne Babineau Official Reporter (Typed) i
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w v Off ial Repcrter (Signature) J ... -}}