ML20031H546
| ML20031H546 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 10/15/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8110280099 | |
| Download: ML20031H546 (41) | |
Text
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COMMISSIM MEETING
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PUBLIC MEETING LISCUSSION OF THE BUDGET t
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October 15, 1981 pA m :
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Washington, D. C.
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 DISCUSSION OF THE BUDGET 5
6 PUBLIC YEETING 7
8 9
Nuclear Regulatory Commission Room 1130 10 1717 H Street, N.
W.
Washington, D. C.
11 Thursday, October 15, 1981 12 The Commission met in open session, pursuant to 13 notice, at 10:55 a.m.
14 15 BEFORE:
16 NUNZIC PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission 17 PETER BRADFORD, Commissioner 7ICTGR GILINSKY, Commissioner 18 JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 19 STAFF PRESENT:
20 l
S. CHILK 21 L.
SICKWIT F. REMICK 22 L. BARRY W.
DIRCKS 23 K.
CCRNELL N. MONACC 24 E. PRIMER R.
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The meeting will pleaso come 3 to order 4
The subject of today's meeting is a discussion of 5 our budget.
It will consist of an open portion and a closed 6 gottion.
7 Before proceeding with the discussion I would like 8 to turn the meeting over to General Counsel who has a 9 statement to make to us.
10 3R. BICKWIT Thank you, Er. Chairman.
11 As you know, yesterday the Court of Appeals for 12 the D. C. Circuit stayed an order of the District Court of 13 the District of Columbia which would have denied the 14 Commission authority to close this meeting.
15 The Circuit Court order, however, denied a stay 16 with respect to those portions of the meeting not concerned 17 with matters included within Exemptions 2, 6,
9 and 10 of 18 the Government in the Sunshine Act.
1s An effort should therefore be made at the outset 20 to delineate th o sa portions of today's meeting which our 21 office believes should be open in light of the order of the 22 Court of Appeals and to structur a the meeting in a manner 23 which permits maximum conformance tc the spirit of the order.
24 It is suggested that the open portion of the 25 meeting should include discussion of the f ollo wi n g matters ALCERSoN REPoATING COMP ANY, INC,
3
's subject to qualifications outlined below:
2 1.
General background information relating to the 3 budgeting process.
4 2.
Reallocations and reprogramming of FY-82 funds 5 and personnel already instituted by the Executive Director 6 within the overall limits of the P;esident's FT-32 budget.
7 3.
Additional reallocations proposed by the 8 Executive Director to accommoda te the President's recently 9 proposed cuts in the FY-82 budget.
10 4
Actions taken by the Executive Director in 11 response to the continuing resolution enacted two weeks ago.
12 In making this recomnendation we are not 13 acknowledging that the above matters are not covered by any 14 of the listed exemptions.
Rather, we believe t, hat 15 consistent with the spirit of the Court's order of maximum 16 possible openness these matters ran be discussed in the 17 open, as I said, subject to the qualifications listed below, 18 and here are those qualifications.
19 Within these four subject areas the Commission has 20 agreed to refrain fron certain kinds of questioning until 21 the Commission enters the closed portion of the meeting.
22 While it would be appropriate to seek
' 23 clarification of the Executive Director's proposals in the 24 areas listed, it would be best not to debate or suggest 25 alternatives to these proposals prior to the closed session.
ALrERSoN REPORTING CoVPANY,INC, dMLMllf4fM3
4 1
Moreover, discussion of the specific details of 2 the Executive Director's proposal below the office lavels 3 proposed the proposal to accommodate the recently proposed 4 FY-82 cuts should be deferred until the closed portion.
5 It is my understanding that the Executive Director 6 vill present his proposal in summary form and not go belov 7 office levels and that discussion of the specifics of that 8 pro posal which will go below office levels in open session 9 could f rustrate the Commission purposes.
10 Once the four matters listed have been explored to 11 the extent outlined, it is my recommendation that the 12 Commission should proceed to close its meeting. -During that 13 closed session I will be sensitive to matters which may 14 arise whien do not fall within the exemptions which have 15 been cited as a basis f or closure.
16 While our office's view of the law is that the 17 Commission is not required to reopen its meeting simply l
18 because a non-exempt matter is discussed, yesterday's order i
i 19 of the Court of, Appeals suqqests that the Court may not 20 share that view.
21 Accordingly, in order to comply with the mandate 22 o f the Court, I will recommend that the Commission open its 23 session to deal with any non-exempt ma tter which ma y arise.
24 If a t all feasible, the reopening should take place at the 25 end of the meeting so that all non-exempt matters can be i
l l
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l ALDERSCN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, I
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400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTCN. O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
-5 1 discussed together.
I do not anticipate, however, that any 2 non-exempt matters will arise.
3 In f urther compliance with the spirit of the 4 Court's order our office will review the meeting transcript-5 immediately ~ af ter we receive it to determine if there are 6 sections of the closed portion which under the. statute much 7 be ' relea sed or alterna tively may appropriately be released 8 even though they are not required to be.
9
" vant to remind the Commission that the purpose to of this meeting as represented to the District Court and the 11 Court of Appeals is to reach decisions regarding the 12 Commission 's response to OMB on its FY-8 3 a nd FY-84 b ud g et
]
13 requests.
i-14 It has also been represented to these Courts that l
15 discussion of FI-82 budget matters is essential te an 16 understanding of Commission options for FY-83 and FY-84 17 Should decisions concerning FY-82 be reached in 18 the natural coursa of the Commission's ef forts to develop a l
l 19 response to Oh3 regarding FY-83 and FY-84, that would be in 20 accord with our re presentations.
21 The Commission could not, however, consistent with l
22 those representations set out to make decisions regarding l
l 23 FY-82 which were not designed to further the Commission's l
N-24 understa nding of its choices with regard to FY-83 and FY-84 25 As a final matter a revised public notice was i
ALDEASCN AEPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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1 issued last night to the effect that portions of tais 2 aee ting will be open to the public.
Since that revision was 3 issued less than one week before the date of the meeting the 4 Sunshine Act requires a short-notice vote of the Commission 5 which it would be appropriate to take at this time.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Ea; I have the sense of the 7 Commission with regard to having a short-notice meeting?
8 All in favor say "Aye."
9 (Chorus of Ayes.)
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Opposed?
11 (No resonse.)
12 ER. BICKWITs That is all I have to say.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
All right.
14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
May I just indicate my 15 point of difference with the Commission position as I 16 understand it.
17 As I have indicated in memoranda, and I won't 18 retread the ground, my feeling is that we can close budget 19 seetings on personnel grounds but I don't share the concern 20 th a t there is a larger agency purpose being frustrated with l
21 regard to the type of information that we normally exchange 22 a t these sassions.
23 therefore, I am prepared to vote to close budget 24 seetings pursuant to Exemptions 2 ani 6 but I would then 25 review the transcripts and release information that didn't t
e ALDER $oN AEPoRTING COMPANY,INC,
7 1 fall under those exemptions promptly thereafter.
2 This format makes that position more difficult.
3 Up to now I haven't had to indicate a different view of the 4 Commissicn approach, but within this format the only basis I 5 would close the closed meeting on would be questions that we 6 have that related to personal privacy matters.
I just don't 7 see that the legitimate purposes alleged to bt frustrated 8 are outweighed by the public's interest in knowing the 9 general content of the Commission 's budgetary concerns.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Well, we can proceed as 11 outlined by General Counsel and then if there are reasons to 12 release any portions we can do that later I believe.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
I just ask as a matter of 14 curiosity whether there is in f act anyone here who isn't an 15 NRC employee?
16 (Ivo hands are raised in the audience.)
17 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY Let's see, two.
Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINos Any other opening statements?
19 (No response.)
20 CHAIRMAN PAL.ADINO:
Ihen I suggest that we 21 proceed with the open portion of the mee ting and turn the 22 mee ting over to the Executive Director.
23 3R. DIRCKS:
I would like to just review where we 24 a re in the '82 budget.
25 Let me go back one year to fiscal
'81.
We had i
ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, f
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8 1 $453.5 million in fiscal '81 and an end strength of 3,300 2 staff years.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is that full time?
4 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, f ull-time staf f years.
5 MR. CORNELL:
No, it is and strength.
6 MR. DIRCKS:
End strength.
It is ' all-tim e 7 employee end strength.
8 Now, in the President's budget th at was submitted 9 to Congress in January 1980 ve asked for $500.7 million and 10 3,3 96 s taf f years f ull time end strength.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
End what?
12
- 53. DIRCKS:
End strength.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The equivalent description 14 is the 3,3007 15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
No.
16 MR. DIRCKS:
Are you trying to ---
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 I am just trying to 18 understand.
19 MB. DIRCKS:
Well, I don't think anyene quite 20 understands and I had better let Len go into it.
21 (Laughter.)
22 MR. BARRY:
It was a 3,396 ceiling that you could 23 not exceed as of the last day of the last month of the 24 y ea r.
We did not have a full-tine equivalent strength in 25 ' 81.
I am sorry.
I beg your pardon.
l ALDERSoN REPCAT1NG COMP ANY. INC,
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MR. DIRCKS:
We did not submit a budget in ---
2 MR. BARRY:
We did not submit a budget in '82
~
3 based on full-time equivalent for
'82.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But the 3,300 which was at 5 the end of '81 was-an end strength on f ull time 6
MR. RICKWIT:
Is an end strength.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And the 3,39; vas a ceiling 8 on full time end strength?
9 MR. BICKWIT:
Full time end strength.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So the 3,396 is the same 11 type of number as the 3,300 ?
12 MR. B ARRY :
Yas.
13 MR. DIRCKS:
Now, in September 1981 14 CONMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I will take you back one 15 step further.
In March or something of '81 the 16 Administration did another budget review of everybody's 17 bud get.
Our's stayed at 500.7?
18 MR. DIRCKS:
Ours stayed at 500.7.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEAFNE:
Okay.
20 MR. DIRCKS:
In the President's revised request to 21 Congress regardin; our budget submitt24 in September 1981 it 22 red uced us about $45 million to a ceiling of 5455.6 million 23 and 3,325 staff years full time equivalent.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Say that a ca in, u00 and 25 MR. DIRCKS:
455.6 million dollars and in terms of ALDERSCN REPoATING COMP ANY, INC,
10 1 personnel 3,325 staf f years full-time equivalent.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Was the 3,325 submitted to 3 Congress?
4 MR. DIRCKS:
This was a letter that went to S Congress.
8 MR. CORNELL:
No, the dollar figures went to 7 Congress and the personnel figures were sent directly to us.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is what I thought.
So 9 what was submitted to Congress was the dollar figures.
10 MR. DIRCKS:
The dollar figures, correct.
11 COMMISSIONER AFEARNE:
This 3,325 now is a 12 dif ferent type; is that correct?
13 MR. BARRY:
It is now full time equivalent.
14 COMMISSICNER AHEARNE:
So that is staff years over 15 the whole year?
18 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
If you wanted to translate that 17 into end strength it would be 3,350.
So in effect from an 18 end-strength stand poin t we we re reduced f rom 3,396 down 46 19 spaces to 3,350.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa Now, also there were two 21 other interim steps I believe.
On that 500.7 the House 22 Appropriations Cosmittee had marked us to u77.5, had th e y 23 not ?
24 MR. BARRY:
Correct.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEA3NE:
Then we had reclamaed to go
\\
i ALCERSON AEPORTING COVAANY,INC, a
11 1
1 back up to something like 495 and Chairman Palladino signel 2 out a letter in July I believe reclamaing up to 495.
3 MR. DIRCKS:
Right.
4 Faced with the reduction of that 45.1 million 5 dollars we laid out a series of areas that we thought we 6 could look to to meet the reduction and also carry out some 7 work that we had laid on the agency for fiscal
'82.
8 But let me go back one step and talk about the 9 baseline.
10 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
The baseline you want to 11 talk about is to address the changes that had occurred 12 internal to the agency correspondina I guess to the 500.7 13 million submission ?
14 MR. DIRCKS:
Right.
We are about a couple of 15 weeks into fiscal '82 :nd the baseline that we are using is 16 the Blue Ecok submission to 03B in September and it is on 17 page 1 of the Slus Book laying out the allocations by 18 of fices.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s This one, Bill?
20 MR. DIRCKS:
Fiscal year
'82, right.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOs The supplemental?
22 ER. DIRCKS:
No, not the suppleme ntal.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Not the supplemental.
24 ER. BARET:
The '83 submission.
The one right 25 the re.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
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CH AIRMAN P ALLADING:
This one?
2 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
3 5,R.
DIRCKS:
L'e have not adjusted the baseline yet 4 because we discussed with the Commission at that time the 5 need to see what action was going to be taken on our '82 6 budgt t.
7 COMEISSIONER 3HEARNE:
Are you saying that there 8 vere n? personnel shif ts?
9 MR. DIRCKS:
The only personnel shifts were those 10 shifts that we talked about in connection with the 11 Commission back when we were talking about the licensing 12 program.
We talked about'25 people adding to NRR that 13 brought them up from about 675 or so up to around 700.
14 CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Can you be explicit?
15 MR. DIRCKS They are reflected in ---
16 MR. CORNELL:
--- in the '92 -- (Inaudible.)
17 COMMISS~'NER AHEARNE:
If we could get down into (Inaudible) 18 some detail on NRR, the specific areas that i
1 19 -- the specific ravision.
20 MR. DIRCKS:
Where?
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, for example, at least 22 ay digging back through and looking into the back-up numbers 23 they indicate $ n the present '82 budget we have 36 people on-24 unresolved safety issues and I think the current estima te is 25 15.
ALCERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC.
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MR. DIRCKS:
Is this a decision unit or do you 2 vant to go below eer: -- f ' n i u tihi r.=)
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, remember we shifted 4 decision units.
5
- 13. DIRCKS Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE' So you have to look at 7 specific areas where people are because remember what we did 8 is we shif ted the organizational structure.
9 MR. DIRCKS:
You want to talk about subdecision to units?
11 COMMISSIONE3 AHE4RNE:
My understanding is that on 12 unresolved issued safety issues we went from 36 people to 13 15.
On generic issues we went from 31 people to 11.
On a' d 14 operating experience evaluation we went from 15 to 1 n
15 IREP/NREP ve went from 6 to
's.
16 MR. DIROKS:
Is that a chart that was given to OMB 17 at one point?
I am not quite sure what you are dealing with.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What I have tried to do is 19 to go back into the back-up material that supported the 20 numbers that went into the President's '82 budget where we 21 were told here is where the people are and now where the 22 people under the current estima te a re.
Tha t is the 23 reprogramming that has occurred.
24 MR. CORNELL:
Wha t current estimate are you 25 talking about?
ALOERSCN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRG.NIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
14 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am talking about the 2 current estimate where our effort now is.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
For the baseline budget?
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is right.
5 CHAl? MAN PALLADINO:
You are talking about shifts 6 that were made to arrive at the baseline budcet?
t 7
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Tha t is righ t.
In other j
8 voeds, within the dollars and people tha t we had we have nov l
9 my understanding is made these kinds of shifts and those are
(
10 the ones that I believe are essential to understand the 1
11 baseline f rom which we are operating.
12 HR. DIRCKS:
John, let me ask you a question.
13 Those numbers that you have there, where did they come from 14 and what are they dated?
Is that a snapshot of what we have 15 today?
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
This is a memo that was 17 sen t to you.
So I believe you also have it.
18 HR. DIRCKS:
Okay.
I guess we do.
This is 19 something that Denton sent to us?
20 00EMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No.
This is a memo I sent 21 to you.
p 22 MR. CORNELL We got this last night and looked at 23 i t.
Some of that is inaccurate.
For example, NREP you 24 showed six people going down to two.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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ER. CORNELL At one time NRR did propose to us to 2 reduce the NREP ef f ort from six down to two and we had not 3 approved that.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Wait a minute.
Are you 5 sayin t then that the base right now, that there are still 6 six people in NRR IREP/NREP?
7 CHAIRNAN PALLADIN04 In the baseline budget?
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, I as asking that.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
In the baseline budget.
10 HR. CORNELLs The baseline budget has six 11 full-time equivalent staff years over the whole year.
12 Whether there are six incividuals occupying that positions 13 vorking there now, I can't tell you.
14 CONMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Staff years.
15 HR. CORNELL The baseline budget is currently six 16 staff years for NREP/IREP.
We have not approved any 17 additional -- (Insudible ).
18 COEEISSIONER AHEARNE If there is a colus? that 19 then says no chan2e in current NREP/IREP in '82 that means 20 tha t you would still be proposing the six staff years?
21 ER. CORNELLs Correct.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I as glad to stand 23 corrected.
24 Now, how about unresolved safety issues?
25 ER. CORNELL Tha t is the only one that I was able ALCERSCN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC,
16 1 to check out.
We only got this at 7 o' clock last night and 2 we haven 't gone into any -- (Inaudible).
Tha t one did pop 3 out at us because we haJ dealt with NPR's proposing to cut 4 those back and we said no, we don't think that is 5 appropriate at this time and we don't want to make that 6 decision.
The others -- (Inaudible).
7 MR. DIRCKSs It is very hard to get down belov e
8 decision units and take a snapshot at any one time to say 9 that is the plan or that._ the number in there.
I think 10 all we can do is say that with decision units we will keep 11 the -+-
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Let se say it the other way 13 around.
The budget that we submitted in '82 had, I think as 14 Kevin pointed out, did have the six IREP/NREP and now he has 15 pointed out it still has the six.
It also had these 16 others.
Is it fair to say that the others are unchanged?
17 MR. DIRCKS:
I guess it is fair to say we vill 18 keep the level of strength in there to meet the product 19 promised by the office.
They say they will get on with the 20 NREP program and if it takes six man-years to do it they 21 will do it.
But in any one day in any one week the staff 22 years are going to be changed around.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sere.
24 MR. DIRCKSs We are desling with five or six 25 people out of 700.
l l
i ALDERScN AEPcRTING COMPANY. INC, t
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Sut there is a Blue Book 2 baseline budget from which we a re going to make changes and 3 I think it 3 s reasonable to ask what assumptions were made 4 with regard to the issues.
5 MR. DIRCKS:
I think that is true.
But, for 6 example, on case work, we have a certain number of man-years 7 in there on case work.
If, as happened in the past week, 8 you say, well, by some piece of paper you have indicated 9 that we dropped two people on case work, that is probably 10 true because the Pilgrim plant cancelled so we have two 11 people who were not working on case work last week.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But, Bill, I am asking 13 about something which is much more substantial than a small 14 two out of 190 which is trivial.
It is 3 marginal change.
15 I an asking whether there were cuts of 50 percent or 67 16 percent in particular areas.
If your answer is that that is 17 in the noise, I find that difficult to understand.
18 MR. DIRCKS:
No, I don't think I would say that is 19 in the noise.
I think we said that the numbers we have, if 20 it is "X" number of people on generic issues, we have not 21 decreased the generic issues or the unresolved safety issues.
22 COMNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Are you saying it has not 23 gone from something like 36 to 15 in generic or in 24 unresolved saf ety issues?
25 MR. DIRCKS:
I guess we will have to get the ALDERSON AEPoATING COMPANY,INC.
m
18 1 charts out.
2 MR. CORNELLa We certainly haven't approved that 3 cha nge.
4 MR. DIRCKS What NRR may be doing in any one day 5 we don't have the number right now.
We haven't approved it.
6 MR. CORNELLs That is correct, we have not 7 approved that change.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And I guess similarly you 9 would not approve then the cut in generic issues?
Is that 10 also correct?
11 MR. CORNELL I as recalling from memory.
I don't 12 have it in front of me.
There was a discussion with the 13 Commission in FY-81 of decreasing the effort on generic 14 issues.
That decision was made in '81 15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In
'81.
16 MR. CORNELLs In '81 pursuant to license 17 (Inaudible).
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Wnat about for '82?
19 MR. CORNELL:
We are two weeks into '82 and how 20 they shifted the bodies around for the first few weeks of 21 '92 I don't know.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 My recollection was we made 23 decisions f or '81 because we put a lot of effort in it and 24 ve have got a bid problem in trying to get over this problem 25 and we 'will have to have a little longer to think about how ALDERSCN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC,
19 1 we are going to go in the future.
2 When we addressed '82 in the budget cycle it was 3 to be deferred until more clarification.
We are now into 4 '82.
What I am trying to understand is as we begin to look 5 at the options available to us for '83 and '84 what is that 6 base we are really working " rom in '827 7
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Did you list the areas?
You 8 had NREP/IREP and you had unresolved safety issues.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I designated generic issues 10 and then opera ting experience evaluation.
This was dug up 11 by going back.
The lef t-hand side, the information was 12 provided to us when we were putting together originally the 13 bud get and the right-hand side is going back into a bunch of 14 back-up information.
15 MR. CORNELL You have to realire though the '82 16 numbers are c ' r a year old.
e 17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Are what?
18 MR. CORNELL:
They are over a year old.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEi I know they are over a year 20 old.
21 MR. CORNELL:
As a matter of fact, I don't think 22 the Commission ever even got down into this level of de'.all 23 f or '82 -- (Inaudible).
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Oh, I think we did.
25 MR. BARRY:
I would suggest on this particul.tr ALDERSON AEPoRTING COMPANY,INC,
20 1 issue if you look at page 2 of your Elue Book you will see 2 that at the decision unit level your major impact of 3 reduction does appear under saf ety technology which does 4 include tha generic issue q ues tion.
Everything else kind of 5 goes up.
So in other words, that is the decision unit that 6 had to take the cut and tha t was addressed in our budget 7 submission to OMB, our '83 budget submission.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But, len, in the Commission 9 when we were discussing '82 specifically the point was made 10 let us not t alk about '82 changes because it is premature.
11 So the f act that the Blue Book here shows a change in '82, 12 thera is an asterisk at least certainly in my mind because 13 the Comnission was told we were going to postpone the 14 discussion.
15 MR. BARRY:
Except that you asked that we talk 16 from a baseline.
The baseline that we worked or exercised 17 on in detail comes f rom this baseline which does recognize a 18 pretty drastic reduction in saf ety technology.
I think as 19 ve proceed a little la ter into the individual items in here 20 tha t talks about generic issues, priority one's, priority 21 two 's and so on, you will be able to measure as to whether 22 the cut is acceptable or whether it isn' t and so on.
23 COMMISSIONES AHEARNE:
What you are saying, le..,
24 is tha t th e baseline that we are being presented accepts the 25 aodification that was made by reprogranming which we never ALOGASoN AEPoRTiNG COMPANY,INC,
21 1 did, at least I don't.think we ever did, address because we 2 were tol snst would.be deferred until later.
- But, 3 neverthelest, that is the baseline that ve are ---
4 MR. BARRYa That is the baseline if you make an i
5 assumption that we in f act have had to take primarily 6 people, the dollars didn't change all that much, b'at 7 primarily people out of safety technology and put them up in 8 the case vork and put some up in the operating reactors for 9 licensing actions and so on and so forth.
t 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is there any way to know 11 what that change was say just in safety technology, 12 recos tizing that part of the problem is tha t there were some 13 units within safety technology, as I understand, in the 14 original '82 that are no longer in safety technology?
So it 15 is a little bit dif ficult.
16 MR. B ARRY:
Yes.
Only that in the baseline it did 17 indicate where we would have to def er certain generic issue 18 vorks and certain priorities into
'83.
I 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 But do you have, for 20 example, a column that would correspond to this Blue Eook 21 tha t would be the President's budget as submitted or revised 22 in March ?
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You are thinking primarily of 24 personnel?
25 MR. BARRY:
This really in effect resulted from l
l ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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22 1 the revision in March.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It was in the Presiden t 's 3 budget?
The revision in March essentially left the 4 President's budget unchanged?
5 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEt For example, in the 7 Prasident's budget if I looked under safety techneiogy wha t 8 number would I see?
9 MR. BARRYa In people?
[
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
It MR. BARRY:
You would see a figure of over a 12 hundred.
It would be very close to what you see in
'81.
13 You see 135 in
'81, and in fact I think it was 139 or 14 something like that.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So you would say that 16 instead of 62 it would be like 139?
17 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINCs How do you decide that?
Page 19 2 of the budget shows 62.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
See this is the revision 21 th a t vent in in September.
This is not what is in front of 22 the Congress as the President"s budget.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Oh.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEA RNE:
What ! vas ackin Len is as 25 f ar as what is in front of the Congress ALOERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC.
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1 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I wrote down here the 2 baseline f or fiscal '82 from which we are going to make cuts 3 is the Blue Book.
I am looking at the Blue Book and in 4 saf ety technology, if I am reading the righ t year, people is 5 62.
6 COMMISSIONER ASEARNE:
Right, it is 62.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
So I would presume that is 8 where we start to make adjustments.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is what the EDO is to presenting as its recommendation.
My point is that that 11 change of going from 139 to 62 is the reprogramming change 12 in '82 that at least when I tried to address that when we i
13 were addressing this budgrst I was told it was not 14 appropriate yet and we are going to have to address that 15 when we get a little bit clearer on the
'82.
16 I am just for the record pointing out that I find 17 the situccion that at least I am now in is that what was i
18 once described as we would address at a later time, we are 19 now told veli th a t is a decision that has been made and we 20 ara coing to use that as the baseline.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
No.
This is the baseline 22 f rom which you may object if we make changes or you may say 23 I w a n t to change back.
24 All I was trying to help us f ollov was to make 25 sure we understood what the baseline was for any adjustments ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,!NC,
a 24 1 ve are going to make as a result of the President's cut and 2 in the process we may find it necessary to make other 3 adjustments.
4 MR. BARRY:
That is correct.
When we submitted 5 our '83 budget we had to re-establish a baseline that we 6 felt was the closest to the way the staff had projected 7 their '82 budget.
Licensing recovery being, you know, such 8 a high priority, Mr. Denton reallocated internally his 9 decision there to accommodate that.
~
10 MR. DIRCKS I don't think we made any essential 11 changes off the track that we were on in fiscal
'81.
The 12 Commission approied certain initia tives and said go with 13 it.
In fiscal '82 ve have not made any changes yet.
14 COEMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Bill, I don't want to say 15 tha t you are wrong, but I suspect that the way you get from 16 139 to 6 2 is that, as I said on this little chart, that you 17 cut substantially in areas like unresolved safety issues and 18 generic issues.
That is where you found the people, or 19 Den ton f ound the people ---
20
- 53. DIRCKS In generic issues, yes.
We discussed l
l 21 th a t with the Commission in
'81.
22 CO MMISSION ER AHEARNE:
But not for
'82.
I 23 ER. DIRCKS All we are saying is we are on the 24 same track.
Now, the Commission can take us right off that 25 track but that is the policy decision that the Commission l
l t
ALCERSoN AEPCRTiNG COMPANY,INC,
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~
25 1 laid down.
We have not made any changas because we were 2 told ---
3 COMMISSIONE3 AHEARNE:
I didn' c m ean to imply that 4 you guys had gone off,on your own and made the changes 5 (Iaaudible).
6 MR. DIRCKS:
No.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I did not intend tu imply 8 that.
9 MR. DIRCKS:
We have not made major changes off to the direction that the Commission laid out in
'81.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I recognize that.
12 MR. DIRCKS:
In fact, what we could do,'and you 13 have got the dollar figures in there, we can now, which we 14 made up last night, give you-the personnel figures by 15 decision unit in each office and it will show you that we 13 have gone in safety technology, as we explained back in '91 17 f rom 148 people in the March end strength to a number of 62.
l 18 Have we got that?
19 Len, why don't you pass that out.
l 20 (The document was passed out.)
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now the end strength March 22 budget, was that internal going towards a total end strength i
23 a t the end of '81 for NRR of 6757 l
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
When you say end strength, 25 fo: which year on the March budget?
l ALDERSCN REPCRTING COMPANY. INC,
26 1
MR. DIRCKS:
Ihat was in the fiscal '82 submission.
2 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
For the end strength at the 4 end of FY-81.
5 rHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
This is end strength at the 6 end of FY-817 7
MR. BARRY:
Well, whichever number you are looking 8 a t.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
All I am looking at is the 10 title of the second column.
It says "End Strength March 11 Budget."
J2 MR. DIRCKS:
End strength for fiscal
'82.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That is
'82.
14 MR. BARRYs The end strength of fiscal year
'82.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
So I will just put fiscal 16 year '82 end strength.
17 MR. CORNELLs The total adds up to 3,396 which was 18 the original Carter proposed budget.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Right.
I 20 COMMISSIOhER AHEARNE:
And Reagan approved in 21 M a rch.
22 MR. CORNELL:
With the changeover from end 23 strengths to FTE.
24 MR. BARRY:
He reduced it in March.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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27 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
He what?
2 MR. BARRY:
He reduced our end strength in March 3 f rom 3,396 to 3,350.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I am not sure I understand 6 the last column, "FTE Reallocation for Licensing Becovery."
7 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
T.
FTE of 3,325 equates to 8 the previous year's end strength, right?
9 MR. CORNELL:
They are apples and oranges.
You 10 are counting them differently.
11 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
But someone already said 12 tha t the 3,325 FTE equates to the 3,350 end strength.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That is right.
I heard tha t 14 and even wrote it down.
15 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Is that an accurate 16 sta tement or not?
17 MR. BARRY:
That is correct.
The two columns are 18 apples and oranges.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But what is this last column l
20 now.
l 21 MR. BARRY:
The last column simply reflects our l.
22 current allocation under a full-time equivalent of 3,325 and 2? also recognizes the shif ts beca use of licensing recovery.
24 So you have got two equations in there.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
There is gap, or is this l
l i
ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
28 1 intended to be a gap?
What is this?
No, I don't follow the 2 gap.
i 3
MR. PRIMER:
There was a change in decision units 4 f rom the Green Book, which is your left column, to the Blue 5 Book, which is your right column.
6 CFAIRMAN PALLADINO:
" hank you.
7 MR. FRIMER:
In addition, there was some 8 consolidations of two offices not shown in the Green Book 9 because they occurred subsequent to that.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEA'iNE:
So their standards numbers 11 really are embedded in tLe research numbe:c on the second 12 p ag e.
13 MR. BARRY:
Under the second column?
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
15 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEAPNE:
Where do the emergency 17 preparedness people show up in the first column?
18 MR. PRIMER:
In the first column that 675 19 originally was 681 and we just took the summary six because 20 tha t was shifted to ICE, as you know.
Emergency 21 preparedness has taken four out of one decision unit and two 22 out of the other.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But you have 73 in the new 24 column.
73 people?
25 MR. PRIMER:
The emergency preparedness moved to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
29 1 IEE.
2 ER. CORNELLs Emergency preparedness was not a 3 separate decision unit in IEE.
It was embedded in.the j
4 decision units I believe.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 So you have also swept up a 6 number of ICE people and put them into emergency 7 preparedness.
8 5R. PRIMER:
That was the only difference in your 9 No. 1 column.
10 COMMISSIONEE AHEARNE:
Let's see, in the new NRR 11 decision unit I thought tha t there was -- oh, I see.
What 121s the systematic safety evaluation of operating reactors?
13 In the Blue Book there seems to be a decision unit, 14 systematic saf ety evaluation of operating reactors.
15 HR. BARRY Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am just raising a 17 question.
There seems to be one in the Blue Book.
16 MR. BARRY:
Yes, and that is the reason you see it 19 up here.
That is the newly created decision unit.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sorry.
21 ER. BARRY4 In fact, you will even see the same 22 numbe:
23 COM,5ISSIONER AHEARNE:
I didn't see it over there.
24 MR. BARRY:
The 25.
It didn't exist before.
25 COMMIFiTONER \\HEARNE:
That is interesting.
ALCERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, L
30 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Let me make sure I 2 understand.
Taat last column is the baseline from which we 3 are ' working prior to accessodating any of the President's 4 cuts as f ar as personnel?
5 MR. BARRY:
Yes, as far as. personnel is concerned.
t 6
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That is the bhseline?
7 MR. BARRY:
Yes, sir.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That helps me quite a bit.
9 And the baseline f ollars are these?
10 MR. BARRIr Are there.
In fact, you will see the 11 baseline people on page 2 are the same as this column.
They 12 are one in the same.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I forgot where I was.
14 (Laughter.)
15 CHAIRZAN PALLADINO:
I think we have established 16 the baselin e.
17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
18 MR. DIRCKS:
I hope so.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD Let's see, Bill, Clinch 20 River is no t reflected in any of this?
21 MR. DIRCKSs No, Clinch River is not reflected.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
In the baseline.
23 MR. DIRCKS:
In the basaline, right.
24 Now, I think what I want to do is talk about 25 fiscal
'82, the potential at d-ons and the OMB reduction.
ALDERSCN REPORTING COMP ANY. INC,
31 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Then the supplement request 2 that we filed is not incorporated in any of your ---
3 MR. DIRCKS:
It is not incorporated at all, that 4 is right.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I know it was turned down, 6but unlike the Blue Book being used for the baseline the 7 scpplemental is not pa rt o f ---
8 MR. DIRCKS:
That is right.
It disappeared.
That 9 is essen tially wha t we want to cover now when we get into 10 fiscal ' 82.
11 I think if you look at page 2 of that handout.
12 MR. SARRY:
This handout here, tne thick one that 13 ve sent down to you yesterday.
14 OHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Wait until I find it.
I have 15 so many of them.
18 MR. BARRY:
It has 20 papes.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I have it.
The transmittal 18 dated October luth?
19 MR. BARRY:
Right, yes.
20 CHAIRMAN ?ALLADINO:
That was yesterday.
21 HR. DIROKS:
This is similar to the one that we 22 discussed with you last week.
I will just su mm arir e that.
23 Down in th e second half of the chart you are f aced with 24 potential add-ons and OMB reductions.
You looked at the OME 25 reduction of 45.1 million dolla rs.
ALCEASCN REPcRTING CCMPANY lNC,
32 1
Ihe add-ons we are talking about, 2.5 million 2 dollars to do licensing work on the Clinch Biver reactor.
3 We talk about 7.3 million dollars in there for the licensing 4 program at NRR.
5 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY That is contracting 6 support.
7 MH'. DIRCKS:
Contracting support, right.
8 We added $500,000 in there to carry work on NUREG 9 0660.
This is essentially the action plan.
This is to do 10 the priority one's and the those priority two's that were 11 identified by Harold in his presentation to the Commission 12 back during the budget review.
13 We have a million dolla rs in there for materials 14 licensing automation or upg rade program in NMSS that would 15 assist us 2.ieatly in getting control of the licensing effort 18 in NHSS.
We are f aced with requirements in this area of a 17 total, including the reduction, of 56.4 million dollars.
18 At the top of the page is essentially is how we 19 would ge t the rasturces to meet the shortfall.
At the top 20 of the page we talk about savings and salaries and 21 benefits.
We are talking about a reduction in some aspects 22 o f the headquarter's administrative support, a reduction of 23 2.5 million dollars in the data processing, a reduction of 241.5 million dolla rs in travel and we noted the concern of 25 the Chairman and Commissioner Roberts and others on will ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
33 1 this reduce our capability to carry out the mission.
I have 2 been assurad by the Comptroller that we can ---
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Which mission 4
(Laughter.)
5 3R. DIRCXS:
The whole mission of the agency.
6 NR. DIRCKS:
In that sort of a general overhead 7 account we come up with $10.8 million of savings.
We see 8 some reductions in NRR of $400,000, IEE, $u.9 million, NESS, 96.5.
The largest chunk of savings that we can get out of i
10 the program to meet these obligations is a $33.8 million 11 reduction in the research program.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
All of this is under the 13 assumption that the 3,325 if a fixed number, correct' 14 HR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
15 Ihat essentially gives you in terms of programs te where ve are in the '82 column.
I do want to mention the 17 continuing resolution.
18 Len, would you describe the conversations you had 19 with OMB on the continuing resolution.
20 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Can I ask a question.
On the 21 ICE reduction, what is that, 4.9, does that make a change in 22 our frequency of examination?
Z3 MR. BARRY:
The 4.97 24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO.
Tes.
25 NR. BARRT:
4.5 of that is the nuclear data link.
ALOERSoN REPCRTING COMP ANY. INC,
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34 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is what?
2 MR. 3ARRYa The nuclear da ts link.
3 HR. DIRCKS.
The nuclear data link.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I see.
5 MR. BARRYa If we stick with the prototype system 6 we don't four and a half.
All we need is $500,000.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Okay.
8 MR. BABRY:
So that is practically all of it.
9 That won 't hurt has a bit.
1C CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Okay.
11 MR. DIRCKS:
We can get into the details of these 12 programs.
I think it is important when we get into them 13 tha t we talk about this in conjunction with the '83/'8u cut o
14 and we can discuss that.
15 Ihe continuing resolution I tcink was a question 16 tha t we had, and, Len, would you go into that.
17 MR. BARRY Under continuing resolution you are 18 required to not exceed a spending rate of the previous 19 fiscal year.
In other word s, in '82 we can't exceed a 20 spending rate of fiscal year
'81.
21 Our baseline for our spending rate in '82 is $451 22 million because that is where we will come out in total 23 obligational authority in
'81.
24 3MB has authorized us at the moment to spend up'to 25 la percent of our budget and that is for 50 days,.yoa know, ALDER'ON REPCRTING CCMPANY,INC.
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35 1 November 20th ---
2 CHAIB3AN PALLADINO:
Fourteen percent of what, 3 which number?
4 ER. BARRY:
Of our '81 spending rate, which means 5 that I put allotments out a couple of days ago in the amount 6 of a little over $63 million.
We have gone to OMB and are 7 requestl17 that we be permitted to increase our allotment to 8 $158 million because in this agency we spend about 35 9 percent of our budget during the first couple of months.
We 10 always have.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Is that because'of research 12 con tracts?
13 ER. BARRY:
That is because of research 14 con tracts.
We have talked to the 05B examiner and he 15 f oresees no dif ficult with that.
He just simply wants a 16 formal memorandum because even at that rate we will still be 17 below the new ceiling in ' 81 which reflects the $45 million 18 reduction.
So they don't have any problem with it.
So we 19 are anticipating shortly that I will meet with them down 20 there and we will take a formal meno down and hopef ully 21 increase our spending rate up to the $158 million versus the 22 $63 million figure.
23 So from a continuing resolution standpoin t we are 24 not having a problem.
The only problem we normally wculd 25 have would be that if they held us at the la percent we ALDERSCN REPCRDNG CCMPANY,INC.
,s 36 1 would simply have to be holding on to contracts that we 2 shouldn ' t.
They ought to be getting out so that people can 3 get on to work.
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs Bill, I just noticed 5 something I can 't quite figure out.
You are proposing, if I 6 understand it, a $1.5 million reduction in agency travel?
7 HR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs For an agency with 3,001 9 people that is $500 a person per year and an awful lot of 10 these people don ' t travel at all.
That must either be the 11 whole travel budget or we must have an awful lot of travel.
12 MR. DIRCKS:
Len, do you want to give them the 13 travel.
14 HR. BARRY.
Our travel budget in '82 is $11.8 15 million.
It was 9.2 in '81 and we did not spend out all of 16our '81 money.
Part of that was due to the tra vel reduction 17 that OMB imposed on us at mid-year.
It was also predicated 18 on the f act that in our original budget we had requested the 19 3,396 people in '82 and now it is 3,325.
20
- 53. DIRCKSs Or the equivalent of 3,396 and 3,350.
21 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
22 COM5ISSIONER GILINSKY:
Did some of that include 23 relocation money?
24 MR. CORNELL:
Yes.
(Inaudible.)
25 MR. BARRY:
Yes, it does include some relocation ALOERSoN REPoATING CoVPANY,lNC,
,(
37 1 money but not a lot becauce we have relocation money in a 2 dif ferent pocket ander admin support that is called 3 Transportation of Things.
This is primarily temporary duty 4 travel when you go out and back.
5 If your question is can we accommodate it, my 6 answer is without question.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
We will send the ACES to 8 him.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MR. BARRY:
The ACRS did not spend out their 11 budget in '81.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is surprising 13 considering the large tsount of arm twisting that is apolied 14 to them not to spend their budget.
15 MR. 3ARRY:
Right.
16 MR. DIRCKS:
What we have done now is to review 17 the '82 in sort of total terms.
I think it veuld be 18 worthwhile now to turn to the details.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Before you turn to that 20 could I ask another question on a larger scale.
Getting 21 back to the supplemental budget request, we did file a 22 supplemental budget req uest?
23 MR. DIRCXS Yes.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And tha t was for, if I read 25 this accurately, $17,400,000 and 38 peoples is that correct?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
-o 38 1
MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That was primarily, as I 3 recall ---
4 HR. DIRCKS:
Forty-five people to do this work, 5 yes.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So that at least back in 7 September we s..I concluded we would need around 25 peoplo 8 and close to $17 million?
9 FR. DIGCKS:
Right.
That combined Research and to NRR.
11 MR. BARRY:
One thing though you must remember on 12 that is th a t tha t $ 17 million, except for the $2.5 million 13 for Denton, was predicated on tne fact that somebody needed 14 $14.5 million wortn of CRBR.
Whether it.was DCE or Pf 3C, it 15 was settled.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNL:
Yes.
Sizilarly I think on 17 the 25, similar problems rel;ted to that.
18 HR. DIRCKS:
Did you want to get into the '83/'84 19 budget?
20 CHAIRMAS PALLADINO:
Yes.
21 MR. DIRCKS:
We can always come back to '82 22 because it shows you where we are at the moment.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
This portion of the meeting 24 then would be closed.
25 Why don't we take a couple minutes recess while we ALCERSCN REPCRTING CCMPANY,INC, L
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4 1 close the meeting.
2 (Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m.,
the'open portion of the 3 meeting concluded.)
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October 16, 1981 Attached are the PDR copies of a Commission meeting
- 53 transcript /s/ and related meeting document /s/.
h They are-being forwarded for entry on the Daily Accession p
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- 53 i
No
- 5D other distribution is requested or required.
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Discussion of the Budget, Oct. 15, 81.
(1 copy)
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