ML20031A217
| ML20031A217 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 09/15/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20031A218 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 SECY-81-286A, NUDOCS 8109220004 | |
| Download: ML20031A217 (77) | |
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t 6
1' 1 transient ilke Pancho Seco that the inside vall tenperature 4
i S
4 2 is dava scound 300 and say 40 degrees Fahrenheit and th a t is j
3 not of concern at that time because the tou;hness properties 2
. e... o 1 '. ". a.
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%..' ~ h a.~> v a.
". 4 ' '
o n_. ' a. o._
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j 5
It is after about a half an hour th t the concern i
i 6 takes place.
Once has high strssses that are induced by the 1
i i.
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- 3.. 4
.51.
-ie
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2 n-7 > e - ~ = ' g. s i.' s n *o on * '. a a
e 4
3 initiate.
.i 9
Cracks then teve into the vessel v 3. ll to the right 4
J 10 and there they encounter high te.mperatures and therefore 3
i l
11 high toughness.
So therefore it is not unusual in our I
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l 3 minutes it was down somewhere near a hundred degrees on the l
4 insid vall?
1 5
MR. MURLEY:
No, excuse me.
In this calculation l
6 ve kept it g oin ;: all the way devn.
That is a l
7 21srep re sen tation.
At Sancho ~eco ve only ~ot devn to about l
3280.
il
(
t 9
.The next chart, please.
to (Slide.)
i 31
- n... 4 3 3.s,,..,,.
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o~.'.. a
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o. c os a.i.r.
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.*a.
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12 is built up due to the tnertal 3:resses.
They sre tensile I
13 0 '.. w.. e.. ~.' d o. v i '. l 1 t.4
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1 of cou se become less and the stresses be ope less.
I i
2 SE. DENTCNs The actual curvo d e p e r.d s or the heat I
I s
s
. 5. a.
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o apply to t.ae -sncac meco vesse,
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7 situation shown on the ; evious slide a t least you have a i
i I
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9 1
36Kt Chart.
2 (Slide.)
3 COMMISSIONER G I L I'i S K Y :
'4 h a t does i t represent nos?
~
4
- R.
MUELEY:
There is a prescribed recipe.
It is 5 actually a Sharpe drop veight test on 1 operimen.
You keep 6 raisin; th e te m pers ture until the speci.7en breaks oit da
, c v e r _, n g the v 0 y y. - -., N.
e - - t N.., ; ;
- ou Nean 7
.... i s s t v i
8 *_ s_ *, a _=.. - s.
9
- 53. F.URLEY:
Yes, excuse me, you keep lo w e ri n.7 it to until it breaks.
It is a little more sub tle than taat, but 11 that is the essence of it.
12 MR. DENTON:
Fesistance to brittle fracturo.
13 Coah!SSIONE2 '.ILINSKY:
It ends up toing in the 14 log ar part of that curve?
15 4 3.,.
.M. 'J C.. L T. V.e.
Y. a..e.
1 16
'H.L.IEMAN PALLADINC 3ut above th a t te.T re ra tu r e 17 y ou don': experience brittle fracture?
18 MR. MURLEY:
We rould use thic cu rve, the
'.e e p s testin; it entil it bcesks 19 u nirr adia ted curve.
Gne 20 s a l then you find a typicsl c u r ve like tha;.
Ita: is for
...s, 4
t o..
2 4.,. 4
.n..
n r.< o. -,
4
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2 ^4 a '. ~. S.
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n' k.~e...3
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23 WQ V. f f ?. 'i. T V.
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ac 24 v.- -
--o s: <
ea,y n
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o-
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-.; - =
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10 e.
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.o us,
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1
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s.
e o.
w S.
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vea.
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r.
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5
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6 separate roperty frca the Sharpe drop veight test but it is 1.
n. "a c 'a a
v* ca. 3.7-*e-d i
4 3..
c,
3...
.2. a.
t
-_.--3.,u1 a.
3.
e
.u
. s 8that we can develop curves li'<e this o# toughness properties.
9 COMMIS5ICNER GILINSKY4 Now how dr you define 10 tcu ghness?
- h a.
s *. c. m" o-4 n *. a n o' i * -
..U.M. 7. V. :
"t
". ~..*. a s. o" o~.i 11
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n 14 wink, eo n u.
e e.
m 15 MR. JOHNSCS:
Sare.
I a: Fichard Johncen.
We
.o,g4
.c 4.,.. 4.. no4 - e 3 o.s 4.,,
- a. e c.4 n 3
. o u,.w.,. g a u-
-. w n.
ma e_
17 m ate rial which allewr 1: to : a k. e a 1 cad or a stress i r.
the t.3 r r 3. o o..,.
e.
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a N
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=
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5+
%u
91 1 intrinsic toughness of the material.
2 COMMISSIONE3 GILINIKY:
Is that what the "Y" cord 3 is then, at least to deterrine experimentally the energy or 4 the impulse to fracture the sp(cinen ?
5 ME. JOHNSON:
Ye:
if we are talking about a 6 Shar;e curve, a Sharpe "V"
notched curve, then that vertical 7 Coordina te vould be en e r ;*; in foot pounds, say, to fracture 8 a standard specimen as a function of temperature.
9 You can also by simple algebraic.9anip ula tion 10 con vert the toughness to the rira of fisv necessary to cause 11 a f racture to run for a given stress.
You can almost looX 12 a t that curv e as though it was a flav size curve, that at 13 lov temperatures a quite small flav vill allow a 14 catastrophir failure, where at hialer temperatures it would 16 tak e a large flav for other things being equal.
16 COMMISSIONI? AMEA3NE:
But as far as actually any 17 mea surenen ts that we end up doing it 10 with recrect to the 1 e= n r.. n o.,.w 2 4
...,39 f
I 19 T?. 00F.NSON:
Thit is tne basic requirement of the l
20 cod e, yes.
,w -... -
v.wy...i.. 2..s s : 3. w.9
.. 4 o, E n w a s, n -
es 21 v.m
n
..s m
e I
I A.
- f 3
D.
M. h. g P. 3 9 h M
- -.b ng v..=-*
4 g
M 3..N.S &.. a
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.j
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%59 b a.
a r
s
'8 se.
I 23 the operating
- 7. a p of the prescurac and temperatcres that the I
r
- 6. a*s n
- r. o 3 a.*.9 I. M a
- 6. ^ !1 M.b.
'A b a.
c e$ n *..e,D
- 4 O. 4
'd' e
- h. s
- T I
I P
m*
a se*a.w.=
- a.t-ms.
)& c.2.v
.s w
l s
+
I 25 r. r i.
Tha. is roJtinely done.
r l
l l
...,,.~,.s,
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12 1
CHAIRMAN P ALL A DI:iO :
I just want to understand the 2 curve a li ". t l e bit better.
If I go to a particular 3 temperature an.1 go up the curv', this re p re sen ts the ener77 s
4 to break the
'7" notch specimen in a brittle fracture; i.
Sthat right?
It is a brittle fracture?
6 MR. F.U ? L E Y :
Yes.
If one had plotted on the left 7 Sharpe "V"
notch energy, then th a t is the energy in foct 8 pounds that it vould take at that temperature to fracture.
9
.CHAIE.1AN PALLADINO:
To break it, to fracture it 10 brittlely ?
11 MR. 6:URLEY:
Yes.
12 CHAIR. MAN PALLADINO:
Then above that i t vould not 13 f ra cture ?
.. o u 3.;.
u a,- 3_
a_... z e b s,/ s
- u. s.. a +..i 14
- v. :..
- v. n..o.r r y,
.a. n 3
o 15 n o t fracture; that is righ t.
16 CHAIEMAN PALLA31\\'0:
That same energy at a higher 17 tempera ture would not cause a f rac tu re if I am in the middle hen the 18 o f the curve.
Of course it
.u c a
't. n e e and 19 obse r ra tion is dif f e ren t.
a, e. i n.:. 4 e..n
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u
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...u-22 ME. MUELE1:
Yes.
23 00 M.i!3 S I G N E - AMEA?SE:
If this is a represen tive 24 C u r "e, it is gutte far dosa.
Io it is not,
?r example, the u.
- nn o-.
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13 1
F. R. MU? LEY:
Well, this is a scha.matic rurve, of 2 course.
T".s way the ASME codo is worded is such that the 3 ref erence temperature is at 3 lov toughness.
The saterial 4 is brittle at the reference temperature.
So it can 5 withstand relatively low weights.
Iypically it is 30 foot 6 pounds.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You do it at 30 fact pounds 8 and you cetermine the temperature at which it breaks?
y,o.
9
- v. R.
wr.m.. Lev.
. s. c 10 MR. DENTON:
That is associated with a certain 11 fla w in the specimen or
"'I" no tch.
It is del.berately put 12 i t.
They are not perfect bars that are attached to it.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNh4
?es, I understand.
14 MR..SU3 LEY:
Nov the chart I have on shc.s that ig...u..
.. <, a i,..t : v..c
. n.
. s.. a.
1 5 2 1.a a_ -
.,,..e o n i r n s ; s. < o.,.. 8. e a.
16 T.t a t this means is that the metal becom.es T.cre brittle at 17 h s.; he r temperatures than i ni tia lly.
- 4 e say that by saying
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14 l
1 CHAIRMAN PALLADI'lO:
That is all a series of data 4
2 curves.
3 MR. MURLi Exactly.
As the fluence inc.ases, 4 time inc re a st.s, that is the curve vill ahift evea further to S the right.
6 COMMISSIONE? AHEARNE:
Is it linear?
7
- R.
MU3LE!4 No.
It is highly non-linear as a 8 matter of fact.
9
.I might add, although it is not relevant to this 10 discussion today, that the so-called upper chelf, which is 11 the top part of the curve, also co m e s d o *a n a bit.
Tha t is a 12 concern even at operating temperatures that it not come swn 13 too much.
We have handled that as an unresolved rafety 14 issue.
In fact, we have just achieved technical tecolution 1$of that.
I think it is A-11, is that right?
16 MR. JOHNSOS:
(Sodded affircatively.)
17 M3. YU? LEY:
But that is not relevant to this 18 par ticula r discussion todsy.
l 19 CHAIEMAS PALLADING:
The rero on your first i
l 20 R T is that j:st to nesa the initial?
l l
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- u. s.:..., _e v
~. s 3
- 1. A
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3RA;F03D:
When you say the shif-is p
e w
be a w e
n o n '. 41 e 1 b
6 24 ME. "U3i Y :
The fidence is steaiY 20 the 73SS31, i
25 bu-
.a entri :lettnt rate is not linea With fluenre.
Tha l
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2 what is called a saturation nechanica.
So that at very hich 3 f: 2ences the rate of embrittlement is much, much slower tha n 4 ir.itially.
5 CHAIf. MAN PALLADINC:
La used to say that the shift 6 was proportional to fluenca to a power alpha where alpha was 7 abo ut one-third, 8
.4 3. MUElEY:
Yes.
"e no.
t' ink i. t is ricser to a o...' #*
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a
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9 w..
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m 10 proportion al tr the square foot of the fluence.
11 The next chart, pleace.
32
( S,.4 a. 2
)
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a 13 Nov **
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15 t ypicall y 55) to 500 degrees Fahrenhei*.
That is the 16ter.psrature at which tne ve ssel operates.
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16 1 involves transien ts, it involves velding properties, vessel 2 properties and 011cciation of the neutron fluence in the 3 vessel.
4 SR. DENTON:
I find that somewhat analogous to 5looking at the seismic margins.
There are so canr 6 individual disciplines involved.
It cuts across fcur or 7 five disciplines to try to form this calcul:. tion.
I think 6that is what makes it difficult to quan tif y very well.
9 COMMISSIGNEP AHEARNE:
It also gets to be very 10 plan specific.
ti MR. DENTON:
It is going to take I think a 12 de t ailed engineering analyses of each plant before we 13 aventually pin Joan the issues.
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15 (Slide.)
16 We have had a nunte of discussions with 17 ind ustry.
We talked to you about those back
'n June.
Since 18 t h a t time v=
have net and had w h ol e -d a y T.eetin;s with the 19 o wn e rc g rou p s, July 25th through the 30th.
On August the
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17 1
ME. MUELEY:
Well, two rea so n s.
One is the 2 fluence is such less with the 3W3 vessels bScause they have 3 acce water inside.
They have the jet pumps inside and tha t 4 cuts down the flu:. a t the vessel.
No. 2 is they are really 5not subjected, the vessel is not, to there severe thermal 6 shocks because they don't have these kinds of transients.
7 CH AIRM A:s PALLADINO:
They are constantly 8 recirculating water.
9 MP. MURLEY:
Yes, they a re recirculating viter.
10 MR. DENTON:
When I say it is a FW3 problea and an 11 old er PWF problem, your PWF's vould switch velding
'2 techniques or don'- have naarly the shift that the older 13 pla n ta h a ve.
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Just to follow up on the 3WE 15 ques:Lon, while tha t i s an easy answer to give and li sounds 16 r ea so n a bl a,
'.a v a v e actually looked at SWE's to be sure 17 t h e r e is no, ~ vas going to say screver situation that we 18 haven't 1:oked at?
i t
19
.1 3. MUELEY I will turn to Warren Hazelton or ark 20 217 i
l i
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23
- 53. 3EiICA8 I' le?n3'3 03 Wheth*2 YOU 379 taif137 4.,. a. s.6--o
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18 1 ;ru might find something in 3W?'s but they are at least an 2 order or magnitude down becauso th ey haven't had the fluence 3 and you don ' t have the transients, but I will let Fay ansver.
~
4 NE. MUELEY:
Well, yes, you can have over-cooling 5 nransien ts where you over-cool the fuel, ttt the vessel, you 6 see, there ;c so much water inventory there between the co. e 7 and the vessel and it is continually being recirculated 8 inside the vessel that the shocks, the therral transients to 9 the vessel vall are substantially reduced.
10 MR. KlECKER:
I am Eay Klecker fro.: the Division 11 of Engineering.
Ihere is one other factor that applies to a 12 EWE and tnat is the fact that they norcilly ogerate at 13 s atur ation conditions.
So if you dc have a cool-down 14 tra nsien t they are not subject to pressuriration wi th ou t 15 h eit -up of course ar.d that I thing fs the big factor.
16 CHA13 MAS PAlLA?INO:
All I was tryLng to get van 17 assurances that you had looked at it enough to be satisfici
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19 3W3 is so much less that we don't have to consider it in the 20 saIe vein.
21 M?. KlECKEF Wt have looXed at it.
22 ME. /U31E!:
%e have schedu.ed fur:bar nee ings 23 v i t h th? 04ners groups vhara they re ;oin; :o cring :n
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2 I might add that we have talked to the ACFS on 3 three occasicas, th e Zetals Subccazitteo in May, the full x
4 committee in June and then just last Friday the full 5 ccMaittee.
6 The next chart.
7 (Slide.)
8 These were the preliminacy monclusions th a t the 9 sta ff presented to the owners groups '. hen we met with them 10 in July.
11 First, that we ought to keep trying te reduce the of these ever-cooling transients 12 probability and severit*:
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16 Second, ve signaled tha' reliance en opera tor 17 a c t io.n tc prevent this repressurization is not going to be 13 a n acceptabic long-:er: solution to the probina.
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2 CHAIRhAN PALLADIAO:
Where are you placing the 3'i m i +. '.
s
~
4 MR. MU3 LEY:
We are suggesting that we may wish to 5 place a limit on the shift to the right of FT on that
.u. n e.
J 6 curve.
7 MR. DENTON:
We vare going to discusc vhat vc h 2V a 8 lea rned from the owners groups and where th e ". ; ssels 1 e 9 tod ay and. then talk about how to approach the iefinition of 10 a li.mit.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You are ;oing to put a li:it?
12 MR. MURLEY:
Well, it is net that s i :. p l e.
13 CHAI? MAN PALLADINC:
I know.
That is why I 14 s ta r ted to question it.
15 M?. OENTON:
It is hard ta define a property that la suits all occasion s, but we at least have some starting 17 id eas about it.
l 18 ME. MUELZ?:
Chart 10.
19 (Slide.)
20 I will reiterste th e industry views as presentel
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21 1 opposed to what I would call even unrealistically 2 conserva tif e assumptions before.
'J i t h these assumptions 3 they assert th a t an Cconee 1 vessel can custain this 4 bounding transient even after 32 effective full power years.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What was the essential 6 dif ference in th e assunptions?
7 MR. MUELEY:
It primarily had to do with tha t they 8used two dimensional heat transfer.
They used the two 9 dimensiona>l alxing.
They used the exact location of the 10 velds for Oconee.
Now, th a t takes a difference because if 11 the veld is not under the inlet nozzel where the cold water 12 is cocing in, and let's say the cold water is cc:ing in here 13 a n d the nozzel is over here, then it may not see that cold 14 tem pera ture.
15 MR. N07;K:
Tom, let me help you.
I vas two 16 dir.ensional heat transfer in the vall and not clxing.
17 MR. MUFLEY:
Yas, and they also did some rixing.
18
- 53. SOVAT.:
Foxe, but the p r e d o.? i n a n t parameter ic 19 t h e fact :nat you unroll the vessel and in effect l a c ?,
at 20. n s r e the cold le; injectica points are and look at the
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22 1 configuration that they are examining as opposed to putting 2 the weld in the vorst location that you could msnage and 3 then say by definition they are not bounded, all opera ting 4 reactors.
5 MR. DENTON:
It might appear pencil shapening, but 6 some of the pencil sharpening is very legitimate such as the 7 physical location of the limiting veld and the more accurate 8 heat transfer.
9
.As Tom vill point out, they still assume and take 10 credit though for operator action which has a big influence 11 on it.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
They did on the 32?
13 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
14 CHAI? MAN PA11ADINC4 Can I ask you a question.
15 Y ou said the velds.
Are ve in trouble only at the velds, or 16 is the p rob l ea pervasive also in the bcse materials?
17 MR. MURLEy:
It is prinarily the. elds because it 18 is in the velds that you ha ve the hi;h copper con ten t.
I 19 h a d n ' t planned on talking about that, but the hi h copper 20 con ten t in the velis causes.~.o r e e:b ri t tlem en t than the I
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINC:
In other vords, I dort't have 2 to vorry about the base raterials?
Yoc are sa ying it is so 3 f ar away that it is not a probles?
4 MR. KLECKER4 E3y :lecker again.
Yes, we do look 5 at the base materials.
At some facilities the bare 6 na terials may be the centrolling element if it does have 7 reaso nably high copper.
8 As Dr. Murley has stated though, fcr 7.o s t of the 9 f arilities' the veld is the controller because the copper ;o t 10 in there during the welding process.
11 CHAIEXAN P A ll A D I.V0 :
Do we have b ase
..a te rial with 12 h i g h copper?
The reason I raise the question is if you had 13 t ak en into account two dimensional heat flow then you are 14 concent r ating on the weld and you v i '. ' got one story.
15 K' h e r e a s, the story aight be different if you are concerned 16with the bar ruterial.
You say the base material is 17 ME. "URLEY:
It i s low copper.
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20 Y?. YU?LET:
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24 1 vill be ce r tain vissels out there where some of the base 2 metals, the plate, may be worse than the veld: in that 3 vessel.
But the vsy i t turns out is the ones we are vorried
.s 4 about are 'he ones where th e velds are the vorse because the 5 pla te, even if it is verse than the velds, is never as bad 6 as the worse velds we are talking of.
7 CCMMISSIONE3 AHEA3NE:
What is the range of Copper 8 percentages that you are til%ing about in the velds versus 9 the plates?
10 MR. HAZELTON:
2 bout the highest copper content 11 that I can remember in pla te aa terial is about 25 percent.
12 M o s t of them are do wn around 15 to
.20.
The velds, 13 h o w e v e r, may range up to abeut.35 percent.
14 The other thing that has been no:ed is that the 15 velds s e em to be more sensitive to radiation than the plate 16 :, a t e r i a l that has the sane copper.
Take a veld at.25 17 Cop pe r ind a plat? It.25 copper and th e ve ld seems to be 18.m o r e susceptible to radiation than the plate.
19 MP. DENIO.';:
If you go to the last two pages of a e v. 4 s.-,e,,.,.
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COMMISSIONER AHEA3NE:
Go you have pla te in there 2 that indicates that fc: these.
3 MR. DENTCS4 Yes.
4
- 53. MURLEY:
We have data on pretty nuch all of 5these old vessels.
I hadn't intended to show it, but it is 6 listed f or ref erence in the back for ev.~y 743.
It is 3EW, 7 Coa bustion o r Westin ghouse.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is the effect of the coppee 9 to change the exponent on the enbritt!eaen increased wi th 10 fluence or is it a coefficient in front of the exponent?
11 MR. MUPLEY:
It is a coefficient in front of the 12 e xp onen t.
We have a regula tcry guide that lays cut these 13 curves.
14 I should add that on the 3^W plants that I and the 15 s ta f f I think don't take too much comfort froa their 16 assurances of 32 full power years because we don 't thir.k we 17 o u g h t to take credit for creritor action f or the long cere.
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MR. MURLEY:
The:s is no quick numbe thet I can 2 give you.
We have done calcula tions wh! ch show thatr say, 3 Oconee, cannot last 32 full power years if you impose on 4 that the Rincho Seco transient.
Rancho Seco itself cannot 5 last 32 full power year. if it has to sustain the transien t 6 that it already die.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADISO:
What I was cettiag at is did 8 you ask the B&W people to conpute the equivalent of the 32 9 yea rs if they had no operator correct it?
10 MR. MURLEY:
Not yet.
We vill be doing that.
We 11 are in this dialogue now.
0 0,.,. I a a-
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c.an as.x you why not as a t
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c 12 13 :at ter of curiosity because I think you made it clear 14 e arlier that you didn't ---
15 MR. DESIGN:
They think it is legitimate s
4 We 1 Shave now written to the particular licensees and we vill
'7 deel with thcne on the case.
We asked 35W the ca.me questian 18 a n d -hey think 103 can take credit for rertain operater 19 a ct ions.
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24 think 42 naai the ans.sr wi th o u t i t, tec.
They didn'- have 25 i t and se hav+ asX ed :.a r now fc: the d?: alls on why they s
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27 1 think operator action can be taken credit for.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
' Y e ti asked them not only why 3 they think you can tak e account but have you asked them for 4 the calcula t io n without it?
5 MR. NGYAK:
We have talked to them about 6 sensitivity studies.
This specific calculation I think 7 takes credit for an operator doing the right thing after 30 8 minutes.
Now, you can trade off 32 EFPY by saying suppose 9 you wait an hour for him to control it.
10 The argunent I think that industry is proposing 13 11 tha t for any event somewheres along the line you are going 12 to ha ve to rely on the operator to take over even after you 13 h a v e nore or less got the plant back into a "norcal mode."
14 The complete hands-off policy is certainly one that I don't 15 think we advccated.
16 But what we are considering is the fact that the 17 experien ce from sonething like the ?ancho Seco event ehere 18 t h e operator dida*: have the proper inf orma tion, which is 19 J u s t one why of where you can cabelop a problem, ru;gasts 20 t h a t a rule of 30 rinutes 37 not necessarily hold for all 21 c ares.
You could in fact ook at the instrumentation 22 a vailacle in the con trol 2003 and per.ap; tarry. P. c s e two 23 c0ncider ations to79th?r.
24 We ne ve seen sc e variation, but our basic 25?o3ition that 49 niV9 De?n de1el3pinJ 13 that if ther; 18 l
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1need for an immediate action then we shouldn't rely on the 2 opera tor because, as ve have been doing on the TMI response, 3 ve have been emphasiring just, so to speak, the opposite 4 ef f ec t, make sure you keep the core cooled.
l 5
$3. DENTON:
I don't want to defend this view.
I 6 just wanted to project in this review tha t I don't agree 7 with taking credit for operator action.
8 COMMISSIGNEF GILINSKY:
I know you don't.
The 9 reason I 11sk is because I thought you had made that view 10 clea r ea rlie r.
11 MR. DENTON:
We are still working on it.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I have got two things.
- One, 13 y ou say don't take credit for operator acticn, but in the 14 eni the o;srator has to be you out of this.
So you have to 15 tak e som e credit for operator action saaewhere along the 16 lin s.
What you are saying is you are not ;cing to give 17 Cr edit f or i.tt elis te proper action ---
18 d ?.. MU? LEY:
--- to prevent repressurination.
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29 1
C H A I ?.d nN PALLADINC:
But I think you need to 2 define better what you mean by operator action.
MR. dei!ON:
We can maybe hit the other two 3
4 industry vievs becauce th e r e they didn't take credit for 5 operator action.
6 CHAIEHAS PALLADINO.
I don't know what that 7 neans.
8 MR. MUELEY; Ic prevent repressurization.
9 C H D. I R M A N P4LLADINO:
We need to define carefully 10 Wh a t operator action means.
11 MR. DENICNa Going back to like that dashed lina 12 in the first curve, you could tave a raup dovn in pressure 13 aither autoaatic or through procedural contrais.
11 CHAIEMAN PALLADINO:
You are saying that ycu are 15 n o t going to assume that he does that but you are going to 16 assune that he does sonething else?
17 MR. DENTON:
At the moment we have been doing the 18 calcula tions a ssuming trancien ts such as 2anco Eeco in.hich 19 y ou did not lover the prarsu;= for a long time.
20
- 32. 433LI?:
It was about an hour before he got 21 in s t r um e n : tio n to caderst:nd sna-.ar ;oing on and coula lo 22 3C 7 6 :017 7 e
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30 1 years he re the effect of o,perator action?
2 MR. MUBLFY:
Yes, I think.
I can 't speak for 3 B EW 's calculations.
That is certainly the case for our evn s
~'
4 internal calculations.
5
.M E. DENTON:
The industry's calculations are 6 ongoing.
Each vendor is going to give us their owners group 7 report at what tine?
8 MR. SOVAK:
The first of the year.
I think as far 9 as the STW calculations, th ey h a.v e maintained the same 10 assump tionc with regard to opera tor ac tion.
You will recall 11 back last fall they calculated one year was all right.
12 Well, that was, as Tom mentioned, a very unroulistic set of 13 s ss um p tions.
Still gi ving credit fo r th e o pera tc r to ?.o the 14 s a m e thing they n o.' are calculating 32 E F ? '?
by the acre 15 realistic as-huilt configuration with credit for certain 16 heat transf?r.
17 COMMISSIONEP 3RAO?CED How hard is it to do for 18 C o n e 9 whit f5u have already done for EuncroSeco?
'.UElEY:
Not difficult at all.
19 AE.
20 XR. MOYAK:
It is basicslly ge t ti ng the input 21 resresr :a ;an of the lessel.
22 C O.' ". I 5 51 v.N E.1 33ACf.'22; A0ull yol eXpSC*- that 23 n u r t e r then to be less than 20 tull ;0.e: yeats for Oconee?
24 M3. CES!Ch; We h37e aSkal for d?t311e3 25 in f ::s a i;7 fro e17ht seie r t0? /endors 2ac ve ill A
y
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l 32 1 better able to ansver that when their replies come in.
2 COMMISSIONER E53DF03D:
There seems sc:ehcv to be 3 some dif ficulty in getting either the right question or the 4 right ansver from 3CW as to what happens at these units if
~'
5 You assume no operator action.
6 CHAIRMA\\ P AL L A D I'.i O :
Oconee is an older plant, 7 isn 't it?
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. CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
So given eve rything else as 10 b eing equal its fluence ought to be higher than therefore it 11 shouldn ' t last as :any years as Rancho Secc and I gather ECW 12 has it lasting more than Rancho Seco.
13
'. 3. DENION:
I think we ought to get to the other 14 vend o rs.
Ac tu a lly some of the vessels for which ECW was the 15 vendor have lo ve r s:lif ts than ve ssels for which Westinghouse 16 w a s the vendoc.
We have been dealing with all three vendors 17 a n d the owners of those to try to get the total picture.
18 I don't want to u n % 17 facur on SEW and the
ere the deu,;ner acn't have great 19 vessel; for vnich tha; 20 bi; shifts.
21 CHAIEMAN 2 A l i A ! '.I O :
Just to try ani unidrstind, I
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32 1
COMMISSICSEE 3RADFORD:
That is also a 2 possibility.
All that I was after is that we have our own, J what it it, tb Sandia study as to the Rancho Seco.
That is 4 saying that after 20 effective full power years that vessel 5 vould have been danaged by that transient.
StW I guess ic 6 saying t?at Oconee could go 32, but the difference there is 7 operator action.
8 MR. MURLEY:
Can I try to explain it.
It is 9 str aightf orw ard I think.
'J e h a v e o u r o v " calculations both ok 10 in-house an* Cak 2;dge calculations for Sanco Secc which 4^
11 shows that if th.tt transient had taken place after about I 12 think it is 12 or 15, but in that range, effective full 13 power ye ars it would have cracked th e ve s se l.
14 Now that is what brought all this up.
Nov 3CW 15 ccees in and says that, no, ve think that a small break loss H3 o f coolant accident is tha boundinp transient 2nd they took 17 a very conservative set of t h e r.m a l conditions.
Ihis was l
18back in %y.
They did a calculation and th ey showed well we i
i 19 h i v e got a Ocuple of years.
i t
20 We pointed out t0 them. hat that is even an I
21 u n r e a l22
- calculation, that sa fon': think you
'.a v e to be 1
22 30 u?'3tliSti0 in 20:13 of the 1: 3n51ents.
i 23 3C they Vent b a C 's and
- 2. i d e v 211 S il c asSu?ptiOnS i
24 in the sense of they 1 : c " '. e d in e vali proserly a r. t th 2) took 1
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33 1 allowed for operator action to prevent rapressurination.
i 2 That showed then that it could go the full service life, 3 namely 3 2 f ull power years without cracking.
4 I just wanted to point out to you I would hope you 5 wouldn' t throw your het in the air and say well there is no 6 problem for 3EW plants.
7 We the staff don't take auch solace from that 8 berause of the opera tor artton, No.
1.
Second, we are not 9 sure the saall break LOCA is the bounding transient.
At the 10 very minimum ve thinA that BEW plants ought to apply th e 11 Rancho Seco transient because it happened on a ECW ---
12 COMMISSIGNER SRADFORD:
Wait a ninute.
The 13 boundia; transient that they are now using is less severe 14 th a n the Sancho Seco transient?
15 MR. MURLEY:
We vould have to study t.$ a t in quite 16 soTie detail and th a t is what we are going to do next week 17 whan we 3eet with them.
18 X2. DENT"";
Our
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MR. MUELEY:
So on to 11, please.
2 (Slide.)
3 CHAIBMAN PALLADISO:
Why dot. ' t ce hcid some of our 4 question s un til we give you a chance to explain what you 5 have.
6
.M R. MURLEY:
Westinghouse essentially said the 7 s a.u.
They have done more e ndlyses than they had done back 8 in May and June, but they said essentially the saae thing 9 tha t their. bounding transient for Westinghouse plants is 10 bighly plant specific because they are less standardized.
11 They have two loop, three loop and four icop plants.
So 12 t h e y heve to almost do a plant specific calculation.
13 They did reiterate their point though that all 14 W es tin gh ouse plants can safely sustain the bounding thermal 15 shock t r a n s i e n *., including repressurization, to Januari
'83 16 a t a miniaux, which is to say they have got at least a year 17 a n d a half or so, a little over a year.
18 COMMISSIONE.s A H I A 2.': Z :
This is safely certained 19.' i t h o u t :a ti ng into account any operator antion?
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s 22 COMMI55:s555 3 :1!.i SK ? :
What sort of aar;in of 23 s a f e t;
's there in this Januaty '33 date?
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MR. MU9LE1:
We will spend a whole d.ny with then 2 this week talking over those details.
We did not have a 3 chance to do it at this meeting.
4 COMMISSIONE? AHEAFNE:
The question which 5 constantly comes up when we have these discussions is they 6 say it can ;c beyond 1983.
Is that it can go beyond 1983 7 plus or L_nus two months, or is it more in the sense of a 8 bounding calculation?
9
.MR.
MURLEY:
They tend to be boundin; 10 calcula tions.
They tend to be conservative bounding 11 calcula tions.
Curs are generally and I will talk abou'. th a t 12 in a ainute.
We are probing the limits ourselves.
13 MR. DENION:
In each area that you look at in 14 terms of calculation of fluence, the shift in th e :e tal, hov 15 well the copper is (nown and what the heat transfer is you 16 find wide a ncer tain ties and you really end up neeling a 17 Mon teca rlo type app.cach when you try to come to it.
We are 18 n u t able ta give i precise va lue.
19 The ACES ". e a r d ou r presentation and didn't object 20 t o what we are on.
We are on a course of action to get acre v,1
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usv 1 the information 1: in, but we are just not able to say much 2 more than looking at the to tal conse rva tisms and the total 3 nonconservatisms.
I don't think it is i today's problem.
I 4 think it is a tomorrow's problem, but I sa not able to say 5 very accurately how many months or years anyone gets.
6 Later in the talk ve vill show you the shifts as 7 ve understand them in all the vessels and we vill propose 1 8 limit and you will see that based on our proposal there 9 vould be a couple of ycars I guess for the worst vessel.
10 MB. MUELEY:
That is just an exar.ple.
11 (Laughter.)
12 Your point is right.
There are uncertainties in 13 th e se calcul:1tions a nd one shouldn't take a lot of comfort 14 e ve n from inyone saying one year or five years.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSFY:
Can I ask you, have 16 Wes tinghouse plants suffered over-cooling events?
17 M3. MU? LEY:
So, not as severe as F.ancho Saco.
18 There is an example that I will get to of a foreign reactor 19 t h a t is simiiar to Wes.inghouse that is tha vorst one that I 20 k n o w c f.
I will talk about that
_n a minute.
Eut they are 4
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COMMISSIONEE BRADFORC:
That is just because it is 5the oldest?
6 MP. MURLEY:
It is older.
7 COMMISSIONER BRA 0 FORD:
But it doesn't have the 8 highest 3T'
?
NDT 9
/.M R. MUELEY:
Yes, it does.
In the back you will 10 s e e the carrt which shows all the ES'd plants.
Oh, I am 11 sor ry.
But for the welds that we ar e concerned with, namely 12 t h e longitudinal welds, Oconee has the highest shift.
Three 13 *ile Island 1 is very close to it.
14 C O M v. I S S I O N E3 EPADFORD:
Tell ne in the siaplest 15 w a y ycu can why is it the longitudinal welds that you are r
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Now, ve talked with Combus tion Engineering as 2 vell, the owners prcups, and their bounding transient is a 3 steam line break and that pulls tce heat out of the steam 4 generator Jery fast ar
- cools it down.
5 They showed us an analysis which backed up their 6 assertion that their nost limiting plant can susta'.n the 7 most severe over-cooling transient, nir.ely a stea7. line 8 break, for an additional five more of f ective f ull power 9 years.
10 Iheir analysis they stated assumed no operator 11 action b eyond those prescribed by procedures.
'J e vere not 12 a ble to define what that meant quite frankly.
We tried and 13 ve were unsuccessful.
14 CHAIRMAN P A LL A DI'ic :
Is their five years on a 15 dif f eren t b a si s than the year and a half?
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How do you get the acst 18 lii t tin g pl3nt can safely go for an additional five years
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It shows the prerature nar. re of
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MR. DESICN:
I. hink 3 dif ferent state of sophistica tion of calculational ability, 4 too.
5 COMM.ISSICNER GILINSKY:
Have any Combustion plants 6 suf f ered severe over-coolin g events?
7 S. R. MURLEY:
No, not like Eancho Seco.
Combustion 8 and Westinghouse plants 3re very similar in design and 9 the r.m al p.
.>ecties.
They have a very large steam generator 10 t h a t has high thermal inertia, whereas 3&W plants 10 not.
11 Next chart.
12 (Slide.)
13 Ihis lists the eight plants that we sent letters 14 t o asking for much more information.
You will notice that 15 t h e reference tenperature is highest f o r th e We stinghouse 16 pla n ts and the Combustion plants.
17 COMMI73IONZ3 CIIINSKYs
'a'h a t did you use as the c4w a 9 4..u.9
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CHAIEMAS PALLADINO:
This is where they are today.
2 MR. MURLEI:
Where they are today by our analysis, 3 where it has shifted to.
We also want to depict 4 representatives f r o ?.
the three different reactor 5 manuf acture rs because they have different properties, 6 dif f erent plant characteristics.
We also then vanted to 7 limit the number of utilities that we are s mding this to 8 because primarily of staff li itations to revies all of the 9 material.. We think if we have this information ve vill 10 und erstand the problem well enough.
11 MR. DENION:
There are Westinghouse designed 12 plan ts with NDT's above the BEW group.
But the reason 'ar 13 this is our abil' ty to manage the problea.
I wanted to 14 s t a r t with the representative ones and eventually work out 15 v ay through an en ti re list if necessary.
I didn't see the 16 nee' fcc having 72 ansvers which would o r.l y bog us dovn.
So 17 I thought by hitting the maximum shift in each 3
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What '. s one to make though
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X3 HAZElTON:
I don't quite understand the 2 question f or Yankee Rove.
That was a very, very early 3 pla ut.
At that time it was not felt that the velds vould be 4 n e a r.i f a s acceptable te radiation because some of the early 5 tests on early hand-made velds shoved that they were very 6 tough and very resistant to radiation.
That is one of the 7 reas.ns that people were not concerned about 'felds.
8 So at the time that vessel was made
- 3. n d a 9 surveillance program determined it was not felt necessary to 10 include veld data.
So there isa't any.
just don't know wha t 11 COMMISSIONER 3RAJFORD:
So t.
12 the status of these velds is.
The question for Indian Point 13 is the same.
14 M.R.
HAIEL?CN:
That is correct, except that we do 15 k n o w that information on velds :. a d e 7 9.. e ra lly the same way H3 in t he saa e time period showed less problems thau more 17 mod ern velds.
We are trying to get scre information on that H3 a n d we probabl, vill get more information on those wells but
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I don't understand that because ve 24 1 c
'.3 79 info mution On One valls 3t India' 20'11 2-3-
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Randall i-not here today 2 unf ortunately.
3 MR. HAZELIGN - I just don't understand why hecause 4 we should have information on the welds at Indien Point.
5 MR. DENTON:
I would like to keep emphasizing it 6 is an evolving issue and we a*e dealing with them all the 7 time.
The data is shifting ar.d Tom is putting together more 8 and more.
It
.T. a y be that when he put the chart together the 9 man co u ldn<' t find the data.
TO MR. MURLEY:
I assure you th a t Indian Point will 11 get their chance in the bdrrel.
12 COMMISSIONER RE AD FORD:
I was going to say that is 13 a bad plant not to find the data or.
14 COMMISSIONE. GILISSKY:
Are those reference 15 t ar. p e r a t ures experimental.y deternined?
16 VR.
TJRLEI:
I think for th e se they all c o.n e fro 1 17 cap sule su r v eills a ce specimens.
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2 M3. MUBLEY:
It isa conbina lon of neasarraents o and cale cla tions.
s 4
COMMISSIONER GILINMY:
Ehose t e:r. p e ra t u r es ?
5 "R.
MURLEY:
Yes.
- he measurements are made on 6 f oils, fcils of irca, of naganese and things like that.
7 They activate end one then counts the foils and ba-ks 8 throu;h a calculation to deteru ne wha *- th e fluence was tha t 9 tha t pa r tic ula r f oil h a s se en.
Then we go to a different 10 s e t of curves of ter,erature shift versus fluence and then v..e a o tg o,....,-m a h 4.c..
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15 COM"ISSIONE3 2HEARNE:
In scr.e ca ses they are.
16 M a i n e Yankee was a test.
17 C 0.".. ' e ~ N...M... '.",. t 'i N e..v. Y.-
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la coabina tion, do you mean sore are d$ne one way and s o.r e 19 a n o t h e r ?
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44 1 m ea su rer.ent, and then we go to a set of curves that show the 2 temperature shift, and this is Reg Guide 199, temperature 3 shif t vetscs fluence for various copper con ten t materials.
i 4 So then fos a calculated fluence, which we think we ran do 5 to 40 percen t nov, then one goes up to th e curves for the 6 correct copper content and then measures a teapprature shift 7 say of 200 degrees.
3 COMMISSIGNER GILINSKY:
Wha t sort of uncertainty 9 is thare in that number?
10 M. R. MURLEY:
If one uses 40 percent en either side 11 of the noninal here you find uncertainties of about 20 12 d eg ree s.. I havs done that.
13 CHAI? MAN PALLADING:
What is this 40 percent?
If 14 t ha t 40 rercent u ncer tain ty on the fluence?
15 H3. MUELEY:
Yes.
16 COHY:SS4ONES GILINSKY:
That means at in th ese 17 ef f ective full power years there is a c0 percent unrettainty.
18 20MM!2SIOSE3 AHEARNE:
Perhaps you are sayin; 19 th e re aay be a 20 degree uncertainty in the reference 20 3.
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2 CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
As we sa w earlier in Maine 3 f ankee, when they do actually go out and get the s a.m pl e cut 4 and do the Sharpe test on the cample, there you have an 5 actual measurement of a reference temperature from a sample 6 irradiated i n th e vessel.
7
'i3.
MURLEY:
We have an actaal measurement 'f the Ltoughness, not the reference tenperature.
The reference 9 tem perature we get froa foil activation 3, as I said.
'4 e 10 b a c k ou t a reference temperature.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But you could check tha-12 toughness agains y0ur toughness tempera ture curve and get a 13 :on firming temperature.
14
%3. nURLEY:
Yes.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEAENE:
Do you di, tha t?
16 MR. "UdLEY:
Yes.
But I think you are saying it a 17 lit tle different though.
We do not from the toug" ess infer 18 a t er.r e ra t u r e.
We check anj say we would predict a certain 19 t o u gh r. a s s.
Given that t e r.p a r a t u r e do we really get tha t 20
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F. R. DENTON:
These data have been redone 2 reflecting the fact th a t CE tended to underestir. ate about a 3 f actor of two, Westinghouse about 50 percent and SEW was 4 nore or less on the
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So the da ta ve are showing here 5 we have corrected for those kinda of errors.
6 I think the key point is that ve have asked each 7 of these vendors to tell us where they think they are based 8 on all this infornation.
9 COMMISSIONE3 AHEARNE:
But based upon these checks 10 with the Sharpe samples have there been any other, other 11 than the CE, have there been any other vide discrepancies 12 betw een what you would have estinated the fluence would have 13 been based upon the Sharpe test and your foil sample?
14 MR. MURLEY:
Gene 311y the Combustion Engineering 15 measurem ents have been off from their FSA3 values by around 16 2 factor of two or rare.
We have known that for quite come 17 t ia e.
Fort Calhoun shoved i t.
18 So when ve take the surveillance speci.7en; cut and 9 measure them, we than recorrer: cur estimates.
So these i
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MR. DENTCN; Let me try to answer it firrt.
I 2 vant the utilities to answer it first, Commissioner, because 3 of these kinds of problers.
It is important to bear in mind 4 that these are staff numbers and we don't have all the data 5 all the time and that the licen sees will be sending in their 6 own estimates.
'*? Will exanine those and then we can answer 7 mare exactly.
think you are putting a bi; burder. on tae staff 8
i 9 to accu aulate the rass of information and not have it, you 10 k n o w, airectly under our control.
So we vi.1 e ven tuall y 11 have good numbers that we can quote accurecies for.
12 CHAI.CiAV FALLAD:50.
But v i-did get a i. in dica tion 13 :na t it r.igh t bc plus or minus 2C degrees..
COMMISSIONER G:LINSKY:
Can 1 just run th i s 15 b ack wa rds.
It is true that you end up with a plus er minus 16 20 degrees, but if you run the calc ala tion ba ckwa rd s wha t 17 y ou told me earlier says to me that we understand the la ronnac tion between flue 7:e and effertive full pcwer years to 19 sitt.;: ataat 40 percent.
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- 33. MU3*EY:
Eoy, I didn't understand that.
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COMPISSIGNER AHE A RNE:
The critical full power 2 ef f ective f ears.
3 MR. MURLEY:
The question though is for that 4 number of 5all power yearr what has been the fluence of on 5 the inside vall of the vescel, and that depends on what is 6 the flux t' a re.
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The flux can be inf e rred by a 3 seas
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10 CO?YISSIC.NER GILINSKY:
Okay, but suppose you run 11 it backwards and you say given the strength of the vessel we 12 tr ink ve can stand so much nore fluence.
Nov tha t is I 13 suppose what the cairulation gives you.
14 MR. "URL1Y4 Yes.
15 COMMISSIGNER GIII5 SKY:
You then have to interpret 16 t h a t and say well what does that mean in terms of reactor 17 oper ation?
18 MR. "URLEY:
That is right.
19 CD.1M*SSIONER GILINSKim Sov what
_a the ronnection 20 bet ween hat fluenre nurier and so many yes:3 of reacter m1 syc-a.4 6
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I think all of this is not very well 2 understced tc begin with.
3 (Laughter.)
4 00 MISSIONER GILINSKY:
The 40 percent applies to 5.h2.
e 6
MR. DENTCN:
I think the point I wanted to make is 7 that these data are co rrected f or the underprediction of 3 flux that has been observed.
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- e have 9 consis te n t-ly u nd e r p r ed ic tin ; their factor of two 10 t a'< e n that into arcount in these numbers.
So that kind of 11 arror where it is distinguishable ve have reflected that 12 i n.
So these numbers wouldn't be low because CZ h;s been 13 und erpredic tin 7 That has already been corrected for.
14 We have a lot or argurents with industry about 15 w h a t kind of flux there may be, what is the spec
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50 1 these calculations are benchmarked p ro pe rly, and we have a 2 b ig research progra at Oak Ridge where
.e put in specimens, 3 kno wn specin ens into a known flux and calculate it, and we s
l 4 require the vendors to calculate it.
They generally can do i
5 that to within plus or r.inus 15 percent today and I think 6 that is generally accepted.
That is we think a goal that we 7 can reach, plus or ainus 15 percent accuracy.
8 If I t h i r.k I understood Com21ssioner Gilinsky's 9 question, wh en we go beck and do the calculation backwards 10 and say how aany more ef f ec tive full power years can we let 11 a par cicular plant run, and if va say it is five more, then 12 we h ave t'o say plus or minus 15 percent on that five, or 13 whatever our accuracy is and we vill have to accoun t for 14 th a t in any regulations that we establish.
15 As you vill see when I talk about regulatory 16 cri t e ria, that is One of the tough questicas, is how do ve 17 dea l with these uncerts.inties 18 CHAI?5AS PAllA?!NC:
Jus *. a caution.
There are 19 various kind s of u nc er t ain ties.
If you are goin; to correct 20 one by saying if se know
.e are off by a factor of two we 21 ' vill tak s ;h& loV?r b o u n '., tnen you don't neC9553 rill Tut 22 the s a.7 0 3pread on :ne a l re a ?.; skei?d n !.T D c r.
23
- 13. MU3LIY:
Right.
24
- i A I.: Y '.N IL. lADINO:
I don't Ancy Wnat the spread 25 1s.
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Right.
2 No. 14, please.
r_
3 (Slide.)
4 This cuanarizes the information that we asned th e 5 eight licensees.
Eriefly in 50 days we asked them to tell S us the con di tio n of their vessel and any appropriate limit 7 on RT.
that they think is appropriate fo; their vessel.
- NDT 8 That should be coning in in about October.
9
. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Nov vould jou expect these 10 to be a combination of measurement of sampler plus 11 calculations or parely calculations?
12 MR. MURLEf:
Both.
I would think that every 13 licensee tha t wa s en tha t list will have capsuled that data, 14 y e s.
15 CHAlE3AN PALLADINO:
Is this the capsuled data?
16 MR. MUPLEY:
Well, the answer to our questions 17 vill depend critically on what the rspsuled data has shova.
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52 1 evaluations by the licensees of how they night propose to 2 resolve the issue.
3 No. 15, please.
4 (Slide.)
5
'de have some recent information since I talked 6 with the Commission last.
7 The first point is that Cconee 1 as part of their 8 ten-year in-service inspection, that is an ultra sonic 9 technique,* is finding indications of small cracks underneath 10 the claddin;.
The cladding is stainless steel about 11 three/ eighths ci an inch thick I think.
That is to protect 12 the pressure vessel.
13 CHAIRhAN PALLADING:
A.ra they fin ding cracks in 14 t h e base netal?
15 MR. MUELEY:
They are finding cracks in the base 16 s e t a l under tne cladding there, oh, a quarter to an inch 17 d e e p and a ten th to th ree/ Juarters inch long, soc.e:hing like 18 t h a t.
I say indications because no one can tarify that th e y t
19 are cracks of course.
! think
.n o s t cf this is not really 20 sur prising that one sees these cracks and indications.
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CHAIRMAN PAlLADINC:
'J h y ?
2 MR. MU3 LEY:
Well, there have been other 3 non-nuclear applica tions, for example, boilers where they 4 have f ound cracks.
There ha ve oeen I think cases in other 5 nuclear plants where they have fcund cracks.
6 Md. NOVAK Just to fill in, we did discuss these 7 preliminary results with Duke ?cver.
These flavs were found 8 in beltilne regions, as I recall, on the top surface of the 9 veld.
Their argument was certainly th a t was within the ASME 10 code requirements.
In fact, these represent flavs one-sixth 11 the size that vould be permitted under the code that that 12 v essel was built to.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Are those flava in the veld?
14 COMMISSIONE2 AMEA?SE:
One/ sixth of the length of 15 depth ?
16
- 43. N37AK:
I can't recall which parameter.
In 17 ef f ect their point was, i think they were saying th a t the 18 as-tuilt c o n fi g u r a t ; o r. of the vessel p e r.r. i t t e i by the AIME 19 rclo fiawc of that nature a: the time th e vecuel vis built.
20 CHAI3".AN 2ALLA? ISO:
Out of curiosity shs t is 2-t r i n ;ir.; a;0ut these small cracks Or possible erall r:3cks?
22 MR, MU31EY:
20 ve kaas th e.n e c h a n i s z, V i r r e r.
ot 23 33Y ?
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CHAIRMAN ?ALLADINO:
Yes, I know you are.
What 2 bothered me was he said we e x pe -; ' e d small cracks and I would 3 never have expected th a t.
4 MR. MURLEY:
Maybe I am speaking for myself.
I-an 5 no t s u r p ri s e d.
6
'4 a r r e n ?
7 MR. HAZELTON:
The information that
.e got was 8 from one of our consultants that was down there watching the 9 ult rasonic inspection.
He has reported that they did find 10 some indications that on the face of it seemed to be of this 11 magnitude in the Veld area.
12 Duke Power and 7EW are doing the inspection.
They 13 a re planning to redo the inspection in detail in t'a a t ares 14 and find out by other types of tests what they thought the 15 indica tions vere caused fron.
-I have not heard that they 16 h a v e finished that wori yet.
17 CHA!? MAN PALLADISC:
I was not concerned about the 18 f a c t that fou got some indications because there is some 19 v sriability in trying to just read th+ ultrasonic si ;n a l s, 20 bu t what I ;ct was an imolicatica that it was not surprising
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i 24 ME. 4AZIL?05:
We railly hav?n't lookel.
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55 1so forth that have been found by the service inspection.
2 There ha sn ' t been real c>ncerted effort until just recently 3 to inspect just the inside of the reac t o r vessel and to tak e 4a loor at the area or the volume close to the insid e wall.
5 Most of th e inspections in the past have sort of by passed 6that area because it is sonevhat difficult to do.
7 We are starting to require them to do a better job 8 there.
This is one of the first instances where they really 9 to our knoaledge did a real determined effort to'see if 10 the re was anything right near the inside surf ace and they 11 did find saae stuff which as of yet has not been identified 12 too much, but they did find some indications.
That is all.
13 MR. DENTON:
This is a critical para.5e ter tha t 14 s ta r t s the calculation as to th e size of th e crack - you -
15 assuae to be present at the beginning.
I understand there 16 is a study coning out soon that has taken a reject or vessel 17 walls which were not n ecess arily T.ucl ea r b u t we re in need of 18 repair and they sectioned these.
19 On the basis of these sections there is a report 20 coming out that attempts to quantify the types of defects 21 that right be present in ra terial Wnirh p;sses AS5E 22 S ti..la ! d 5.
I think in the long run t '. ; 1 t Will be a Pery 23 u s a f u l info:Istion to have in the wa. of startin; 24 iss G0p tionS.
In order to start We Ic 15ke sr2e issulp; ions 25 the ai Di ti3e.
? l ;' ; 9 tou ; sul e: "' a ir. hat is our Starting 1E7 2. '. 22-
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56 1 assumptions.
2 C:f AIBM AN - P ALL ADING:
Did they have signature 3 ultrasonic measurements of that sa:e region before they 4 sta rted?
5 5
MR. VAGINS:
No.
6 CHAIRMAS PALLADINO:
So you ran't compare what was 7 in them nov.
Okay.
I was just concerned that there is an 8 implication that we were getting a lot of sr.all crac'<s 9 underneath the cladding.
10 MR. DENION:
I guess also th e techniques don ' t 11 really detect very well cracks that are assumed there.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I would agree.
I would not 13 argue that there is a great deal of uncertainty in the 14 inf ica tion.
I thought you had confirr.ed th e exis tence of 15 cra cks.
16 1R. VAGIN5:
Milt 'la g i n s, Materials Engineering 17 B ra nch Of Researrh.
In all honesty we have to examine *he 13 world wi d e e x pe rien ce.
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- b. ave negated 2 the signals cut, makes our concern even greater.
3 MR. YURLEY.
I have talked with a lot of people, 3
4 and I don't regard myself as an expert, but I have talked 5 with a lot of experts, and I aI just not surprised at these 6 indication s at e.11.
7 CHAIRMAh P A L L A DI.VO :
I a r.
not surprised at the 8 i ndications.
I would be surprised a*. the c r a c'< s.
9 MR. MURLEY:
Next we have indications of 10 ov er -coolia; transients at two plants, and I will talk about 11 those in just a noment.
12 There have been a nurber of sensitivity 13 calcula tions 5y the staff.
We tend to use 2ancho Seco as a 14 ben ch aa r k acause it ris an ac tual event for FEW plants and 15 i t turns cut that it is s comparable pressure temperature 16 t r a c e f or a sm+11 steam line break f or '4est in,nouse and CE 17 p l a n t s.
So I think it is a useful benchnark.
18 We have Jane calculationc using noninal caterial 19 pro per ties ani isty conserva;tve properties.
As one miJht 20 e xpect, it is nat surprisin; that we have Jone some s
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53 1 coef ficients and that kind of thing.
We hope to get a 2 better understanding of this as time goes on.
3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Tom, eac' of the pla. t 4 types you ha ve listed in initiating transients it scened to 5 be fairly different for each manuf acturer and then even 6 dif f eren t within We s ti n gh o u se.
Is it real2y likely that 7 there is that nuch variation and I guess also dces it really 8 matter?
9
.MR. MURLEY:
Oh, yes, it does really matter.
to COMMISSIONEF 3 RAD?OFD:
Why?
11 MR. MURLEY:
Well, because the operator for one 12 t ak es m u ch different actions if it is a steam line break 13 t h a n
- k. e does for the small break icss of coolant accident 14 a n d what one assumes the operator knows and can do, for 15 e xa m ple.
So the likelihood of repressuriza tion is dif f e ren t 16 in those two.
17 COMMISSIONER BRADF0?D:
But if you are goin; to la ultiastely require that ; hey be able to ccps with the event 19 reg ardless O f oper a tor action, Or at least t h.a t they avoic 20 r e,ress u riz a t tan, then ior purposes of lescribing the 21 re;t. lit 3rr requirement that comes out Of
?.1 1 Of thi; f0es 22 th?
- i t i a t ing artion 7a t te r /e Y 7uch, the initiatin,- even;7
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c 24 MR. DESION:
Tha procabil;;ie2 va think tary 25 s+: veer 25W plant-and the other two types makina 351 core
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50 1 susceptible to certain ones than are CE and Wastinghouse.
2 The limiting ones at CE and k'e s t in gh o u s e seem to be 3 dif f eren t based on the calculations today than for BC".
s.
4 MR. SOYAK:
In the long run the steam line breat 5 with its proper degrea of conservatism th ro ugh the 6 Wet tingh ouse and CE plants vould be the defining transient.
7 It certainly is the
.7 0 s t sever? of the cooling tran sien t s, 8 the large steam line break, for exa ple.
9 Sov, 3 C'4 's p la n t having a smaller inventory of to water in the secondary typo, if you just being to rank the 11 pla nts by s t e a.7 line break accidents, i t is not quite as 12 se vere.
That is why when they looked at th e range of 13 a cciden t s, and i t is still not clear, but the snall break 14 L C C.i w a s the most severe one.
15 Now, as they oc b a c '- and they start to refine that 3 - e.g 3t a,
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60 1 it in more depth.
2 MR. MURLEY:
Mr. Chairnan, I am about half thrcuch 3 sy presentation.
S'..ould we vrap up?
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADING:
Why den"t you move on.
5 MR. MURLEY:
Put 16 on, please.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADING:
We will try to restrain 7 ourselves f or at least another five ninutes.
8 (Laughter.)
9
.C O M M I S S I G F E" 33ADFC?D:
I hate to lose all 10 desc -ip tion of the Sal. Ono# re a n d however you pronounce the
^
11 other events.
12 MR. MUELEY:
Rorsella yes.
13 CDMMI55IONE3 3RADF333:
Do they show up somewhere 14 else ?
15 ME. YURLEY:
Yes.
We have asked our foreign 16 counterparts shat their experience has been and they have 17 b 'en te r y rooperative in providin7 ther.
18 There are two events in p a rticula r.
One is th e 19 Fin nish r e '. c t o r Loviisa.
They found fror their nenitoring
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61 i
f 1 flux to one-third of its original value.
They estimate th a t 2 by hatin; done this that the plant can meet its servic l '. f e.
3 The te';erature also of emer;ency ccoling vater 4 was raised from about 70 to about 130 f.egrees in order to 5 reduce the therral shock in ', hat traasient.
6 Th e n e x t chart, please.
7 (Slide.)
8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
'a' h a t was the last 9 ref erence,tampernture, do you know offhand, that you 10 e xpec ted to see for a U.
S.
reactor at the end of its useful 11 lif e?
1 12
- 52. hURLI?:
If nothing is done, I have done some 13 calculaticas which ^how that some can get above 400 degrees 14 Fah renheit ceference temperature.
15 The Sorselle event of March the 2nd 16 COMMISS CNE? GILINSKYs Baf;re you ;et to this, 17 W h y does that Finnish solction not appeal to our opera to:c?
18
- 33. DESTLS:
It say, and that is one of the 4
19 s ol u:i aa s -hat they have e x a.m i n e d the of f ec t of.
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J 62 1seem to be that extr aordinaril:r dif ficult to do.
2 COMMISSIONE3 GILISSKY:
Presumably just taking the 3 outer ring of ele?. eats out reduces the power level by very 4 little.
5 MR. M!!? LE Y :
I don't kncv vhat it i.e.
We have got t
6 some indication f rom our plante tha t i t
.m i g h t be 10 or 15 f
7 percen t.
The f uel costs veuld go up 10 or 15 percent, 8 something like that.
I must admit we don 't aave gcod 4
9 inf orma tion on thit.
Westinghousn ha s done some 10 calcula tion s b ut that is about all we ha'<e.
it 11 COMMISSICNER GILINSKY:
Of course, wha t you would 12 b e proteciing is scrething that would cost you a lot more 13 tha n th a t.
i 14
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s 15 CCMMISS!CNES AHEARNE:
Did they put the dumaies in 16 to reduce the : lux and shift the location of the high flux 17 or just to reduce the flux.
18 MR. M U R I.E Y :
I think just to reduce the i'.ux.
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19Iha'/ alSO h5Ve to put Something i.". thGr? to la?.e sure the i
20flov pattorno don t maange a lot.
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63 1 factor of seven for the vessel there.
2 1R. DENTON:
That is one of the options ve have 3 asked f or inf orma tion on.
4 MR. MURLEY:
This is significant because it is a 5 precursor of t '. c type of over-cooling transient tha t might 6 apply to a Westin;hous.> or CoSbustion plant.
Perselle is a 7 400 megawatt, two loop, two steam generator, X "4 ')
design.
It Sc:arteu operation in 1973.
9
- In March during some naintenance some electrical 10 connection s were interchanged and during start-up, that is 11 they were appr oachin; opera ting temperature and pressure and 12 the ref o re th e core was not critical, the operator tested the 13 pow er to one of these pilot v.lves and 1 causrl the steam 14 gen era to r sa f e ty valve to open in such a way that the valve 15 d i j n ' t reciose.
16 As near as ve can tell from telephone 17 con va: 5ations with than these vare independant tailurer.
13Th3: is, the failure to close was not related to the reasor.
19 i t opened in tne first piire.
20 One ste2a 7enera:cr boil 11 iry.
The cparatcrs did
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- 64 1 noticed ths t the level in the prescurizer had dropped and 2 their main concern was two things.
One is to get the level 5
3 back up in the pressurius-and the second was to prevent the f
4 high pressure injection system from co ing on.
5 We askoi the authorities there were tney concerned 6 at all about the vessel luring this and they said no.
I 7 f on 't think this was a serious matter for ---
8 C0 Y. MISSION 7' GILI.N S E Y :
Is this a Germen reactor?
9
.M R. MURlEY:
It is a Netherlands reactor.
As I 10 s aid, it is a X'a*U design which is a German outfit.
It I don't think i t
- 1. s a serious matter for them, but 12 i t does have inplications for us from the point Of view that 12 i t is a pracursor of a n over-cooling t r a r.si en t in a 14 Westinghouse type plant.
15 The operator's mind-set, so to speak, was not to 16 vor:7 about the vessel at all.
It was to keep the high 17 pre ssure in j ec tion from comin; on and therefore Xeep the la pre ssure high.
19 C3?MI55:CSE3 3:L15iXY.
Did you know about this 20 e v e n t when we ha! Our last briefing?
21
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24 MR. MU?lIY 8 It CA39 ibout as a : L ult Of our 25 tel:xms tha t v e aa..t Out 3fier tie neating.
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65 1
COMMISSIONEE BRADFO??:
'Jhen we did meet on it 2 last time it seems to re that Research had done so.me 4
4
+
3 calcuations indicsting the probabilities of an event like f
4 this in a non-SCJ design to be what, one in 10,000 or one in i
4 5 100,000?
I l
6 MR. MURLEY:
Yes.
Careful nov.
One re.11y has to 4
t 7 look at thi s to say that i t is as serious as S ancho Seco.
I I
t 4
1 8 don ' t think it is, but ve have to analyte.
We asked 9 ourselves a few "What if" questionc, could it have been 1
1 10 worse and so forth.
You knov, the Del ta "T"
was only 160 4,
i i
11 dec rees.
t i
i 12 CHAIEMAN PALLADINO:
Are you analyzing this 13 situation?
14 MR.
?. U R L E Y :
Yes.
I 15 CHAI?XAN PALLA? NO:
Are you doing it within the I
16 staff or by contract?
I M?. MJRLEY:
The Research staff i s looking at this 17 j
I I
18 a s 3 orecurscc, for ex3;;ie.
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66 1 toughness of the vessel and they are both needed to initiate 2 a crack, tnat is 3 stress and lov toughness.
3 I might add that our plants, as near as ve have 4 been able to determine, do not have single rufety valves on 5 the stea.T generator.
Therefore they would blow down slower 6 and the temperature decrea se veuld bc not as rapid.
7 COMMISSICNE? 33ADF0F7:
This happened at 4:45 8 because it was during start-up?
9
.MP.
MU3 LEY:
If it happened a'
hoar or two later 10 i t could have been vorse.
11 COMMISSIONER 33ADF0?D:
It could have been 500 to 12 2 S a.'
13 MR. MURLEf:
It could ha ve b een.
14 CHAI? MAN PALLADING:
Let's see.
It is nov 3:30.
15 I h a ve to leave for the Hill in about, I can stretch it to 16 a bo u t 15 2Lautes.
Mcw coul.
.e 23%e the most effective use 17 of the next 10 to 12 minutes?
If you vish I could turn the 18 C..a i r o.er to soceane else and you can continue.
19 COMMIF5:05Es GIIIN3KY.
We could have another 20 n e e i n g.
21
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TU31EY:
200 on Chart 2C.
I ~'ill ta? ' about 24 fize acre " t n t '. e s.
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67 1 importent and I don't want to rush it.
2 MR. MtJRL EY 4 I think we really ouch t to spend some 3 tina on this.
I vill just highlight that.
- s 4
The type of regulat.ry limits we are look at 5 reslly s t e s.
from these questions.
'4 h a t kl.ad of transients 6 should we want to protect against?
Is ET a limi*
4 NDT 7 th a t, the pr ner criterion?
And if it is, what is the 8 limit?
~4e have ;ot to have a common evalua tion model and we 9have to have a method for treating uncertainties.
These are 10 a l' questions ve don't have answers to today.
11 Pat on 21.
12 CHAIRhAN PALlADINO:
Do you have a plan to get 13 these an swe red ?
14
.4 2. M'J E L E Y :
Yes.
One might ask suppose we set 15 300 degrens as such a limit, how far are some of th e plants 13:say from that nov?
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The mere point of this chart is to say that i f one 2 were to say 300 degrees Fahrenheit, which is really just a i
3 round number that is close to our areas of concern, then we 4 say there a re several plants that are within a few years oi 5 reaching that now.
r l
l 6
COMMISSIGNER AEEA3NEs Then if you put in your i
7 uncertainties t
+
8 MR. MURLEY:
'a' e l l. that 1.; a good question.
Is 9 300 with c.ncer t s.1 tie s or i s th a t a lower bound?
l 10 COMMISSIONE2 AHEABNE:
Or Es the current 230 plus 11 or minus 20.
4 I
12 MR. TURLEY:
Now, how many plant; are we talking 4
d l
13 a b o u t !
4 1
14 Chart 22.
15
( S lid ?. )
3 k
16 Chart 22 lists the aumber of plants in the given 17 tem pera ture range an'd one sees there are 14 plants i
i 18 alt og e th er that have 3'
ibove 200 which is our 7so s
t 19 noninal Calculation today.
So that they '.' o u l ; i ll be facing 20 som e kind of action if we were to estib"ish a 11.3i: say of i
t 21 arodad 300.
i n.
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It is a safety concern, as Harold said, for the 2 older plan ts, particularly having high copper material.
'J e r
3 don ' t think immediate corrective action is needed, but it is
't t
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4 becczing more and more likely I think that sone action vill 5be needed.
j u
i 6
COMMISSIONEE GILINSKY:
'4 hen you say int.ediate do 7 you mean today or closing reactors or what?
8 MR. MURLEY:
Ya,
1 9
COMMISSICNE. GILINEXI:
I mean, i t looks to me to lik e when you put up a chart saying tha t some of the 11 reactors may be in the one, two, three or four-year category 12 t h a t you ought to do scaething pretty soon.
13 MR. MURLEY:
In the sensa of ga thering 1
l 14 inf ormation, absolutely, and we are doing i t acu.
'4 h a t I 0
15 3. e E 7 by cocrective action is sht; ting a plan
- dovn.ind takilg 1
l 16 f u e l out or annealing or s o r.e t h i n g like that.
1 1
17 C O M Y. ! S SI O N X 3 GILISSKY:
I would ccll, you know, 1
i 18 r e p ? cri n g the outer ring of fuel elements corrective action 19 i f you piaa to 30 1: 1.n ell a tal y ind it is conceivable th' :
20 :n a t is wnere we ecy end u;.
21
- 13. DESICS:
That is Wha
- we required these eight j
22 u tilities t0 address ir.
150 fays Or 3,
and th e y will be I
23 c 3ain ; in With th2 effec 5 and savin;J achieved by that very T
24 iuickly.
It is j;s. I guacti;n of do we lo i t Without I
25 " : ' :. l e d k a s v lu d s c.
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- 1 to collect zite pla'-
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70 1 specific inf orma tion a nd we have chosen to go that toute.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
When is the 150 days up?
3 MR. NOVAK:
It vill be just after the first of the f
4 year in the la te part of January.
We do have tre 6 0-d a y 5 notices which vill be coming in at the end of October.
Nov 6 tha t should ;lve us(pnother feeling as to their calculations 7 of more sp?cifir inf orma tion on th e ve ssel itself.
8
- 33. MG? LEY:
As I said, it ir becoming more a ?.d 9 m or e lik ely, at least in my minf, that we vill be requiring 10 some actions within a year.
11 Our internal schedule is to have a generic 12 resolution by next suumer.
That is to say, if it is a limit 13 ve are talking about, to ha ve it well thought out, staffed a
t' 2 lice n se e m by 14 out and have a continuing dialogue vita c
15 nex t summer.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLAD:NO:
You may have some resolution 17 in principle, but then some of the resolution may actually 18 0 0.T. e to th e point of renoling fuel and putting in jumnies or 19 a d j us tin g the tesperature.
When vould that cone about?
Do 20 v e h a 'c e e n a u g t.
tiae f rame in some of those reactors so that 21 42 00u11 a;rD;aalate that 11104.nJ *ha t ir. e we need fot data 22 gathatc.9J and laalysis?
23 M3. MU2LF':
Well, if th e licenssas o.
the ci-ier 24 piir ts do not sta-t nos to think nicut what their solutions 25 7.17 h t b2, that is if they wait until
.tx t su27er until we
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i 2 That is to say. they vill probably have to shut down before i
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- ili, 3 they have ---
4 c
e 4
COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
These are the older 5 plants.
Do you think you have covered all of thosc e
v l
6 potential candidates in your list of eight?
l 4
I.
i 7
MR. DENTON:
~4 e l l, there ara one right below them, 6
k i
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8 as y yt sav in the chart of 14 So whjle ve T. a y have only i
1 i
9 piched out, two or three of each vendor, there is another one i
)
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iC sit ting there 10 degrees dosn.
4 11 COMMISSIONE? AHEARNE:
But if Tom is correct that j
i 12 they may not have that tim.e of time, sho uld n ' t you have i
,t j
13 identified to each of those clants 'ha t you think a re those 14 po ten tial candida t es ?
l t
t i
15 MR. MURLEYs Ch, they know it through the owners I
e i
I 16 gr oups.
l 17 MP. OENTON:
Th e o wne r.s groaps are workin; the I
18 problem generically snd they are all senbers of the ovnars 19 g r o u p s.
We have ;"st sin 31ed thes? ou: to get a lead on the t
20 big popuistion.
21 CHAI.'?i:i ??ll.O 50s 2re these plant ovncr3 I
22 s + r 10 0 3 '. y Jivin; ittentica to the alternatives : hey say ave i
23 t o face?
ME. " U E L Ei ;
I inink they Ire, yes.
"e have 24 I
c h
25 70 0 :3n t r. e i r a t ten tion nev.
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72 1
MR. NOVAK One thing the owners are looking for, f
2 and it is speculation on my part, is some short-ters 3 laprovements.
For example, the Yankee organization on
/
4 4 Yankee Rowe, they made modifications over a year ago to 1
5 increase the ECCS wa te r tempera ture 220 deg rees Fahrenheit.
6 Surprisingly that does make some difference.
So I think 7 what they ar e lookin; f or is something they can do rather 8 quickly by themselves, suca as EFPY, if they can convince us i
i 9 of that, and then look at management schemes in terms of 10 f uel and so farth..
4 l
11 COMMISSIONE? 3? AD FC?O :
Why did they do that?
I 12 M3. NOVAX:
Wny?
13 COMMISSIONEE DRADF033:
Y0u sa' it was ovar a year-
]
14 a g o ?
l 15 X3. NOVAK:
Yes.
They did it for this specific t
16 p ro gr am.
17 CO ?.M I S SI O N E R AHEARNE:
Are many of them seriously
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No, sir, not to my Xcavledge, not
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73 i
1 questions.
I am sorry.
2 OHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think we will vant to Keep 3 on top o f this more than we do on many c:her iscuas.
o l
4 MR. D E NI'O N :
I think our next check point is we 5 will be meeting with th e vendors again to stay up on the i
t 6 progress they are making on this.
Then when the 60-day 7 replies ceae in v2 will be in better shape on those eig h t 3 plants and I bellave we vill kncv if we a re in agreement 9 with those, utilities and not on the bas!.c p rope: ties of 1
i 10 taeir plants.
11 OHAIRMAN PALLA0ING:
Are you saying that you won't 12 h a v e significant1r dif f erent iaformation for ano the; 50 days?
i l
13 MR. D E N r'IN :
We will be briefe?. by industry on i
i 14 vha t progress they are making ;enerically, but I think ve 15 will have to wait f: these letters before there is sny 16 f t ad amen tal new inf orma tion that may cone in.
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19 M?. NOVAX:
Yes, October 20-h.
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7a 1 October.
Is that still ---
2 MR. MU9 LEYS It i s still planned.
3 Hilt, do you have a schedule?
c.
4 MR. VAGINS:
This is a report tha t is due at the 5 end of September.
6 MR. MUPLEY:
We called in Cak Ridge two veeks ago, 7 by the way, and had a half-day briefing with then.
So ve 8 a re quite sva re of what they are doing and I can say there 9 are no surprises that I know of.
10 CHAIRMAN PA1LADIN0:
I was hopir.g that we would 11 have a : eeting after we got sose of the 50-day responses.
12 Mk. OENTGS:
That would be a;;ropria te a couple of 13 weeks af ter the recponses are in and we have had a chance to 14 a ssemble th em.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Nav, if any new laformation 16 d evelops in the interia I will 9xpect you to alert-us co 17 th a t we est arrange for another briefing i f that seems
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j 20 COMMISSI3SI? AH:A.;;5E:
Could we aske an agresiaat
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23 (laughter.)
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24 C H U. ! !. a 2ALIAI~SO:
I h o.o c that you hs < gotten I
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i 1 think it is in the same vein as some of the other dates tha t 4
2 sometimes slip.
J 3
- 33. DENTON:
I think that is certainly right.
I 4 think there vis an unfounded hope aronc the industry e.srly 5 this spring that some silve r bullet would be found that 6 would eliminate this problea and it is increasingly 7 apparent, at least to ze, that there is no si?. ply solution f
8 to it and it is going to require a lot of detailed i
f 9 engineering p ia r. t by plant to come to grips with it, i
l 10 CHAI??AN PALLADINO:
I thank you very much for the 11 presenta tion.
It appears to me as though you are taking 12 reaconable steps and, as I said earlier, we are interested i
13 in progress.
I' 14 Thank you.
15 We vill stand adjourned.
16 (Whereupon, at 2: 35 p.a.,
the public meeting 17 coa cluded. )
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