ML20009F194
| ML20009F194 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 07/09/1981 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8107300111 | |
| Download: ML20009F194 (80) | |
Text
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MEETING OF ADVISORY PANEL FOR THE v3 I
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
.. MEETING OF' ADVISORY' PANEL EOR THE. DECONTAMINATION OF THREE MILE ISLAND 2 4
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The meeting of the Advisory Panel for the d
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Decontamination of Three Mile Island Unit 2 convened, pursuant z
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JOHN MINNICH, Chairman f
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JOEL ROTH b
18 ROBERT G.
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ARTHUR E. MORRIS 20 i
ANNE TRUCK e
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DELEG.TTES FEPRESENTING PANEL MEMBERS PRESENT:
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i GEORGE K..TOKUHATA 23 THOMAS M. GERUSKY 14 NRC LIAISON PRESENT:
WILLIAM TRAVERS l
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
3 Welcome to the meeting of the TMI advisory committee.
Jim I
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Gormley would like to address the panel.
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identify yourself for the secretary.
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I subscribe to this magazine called i
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Power magazine, and in it is one leading sentence in an article
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9l in it it says, "despite the many delays imposed on engineers S
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responsible for the recovery of the Three Mile Island nuclear
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! political obstacles," and the operative word for me is obstacles, 9
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" cleanup crews continue to make significant headway. "
I4 The reason that I asked for.the opportunity to speak 4
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! and citizens are seen as obstacles to a safe cleanup, and I think 5
I 0l that that has been ir part due to the insufficiency of this s"
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committee and this panel to provide effective citizen input into 20 the cleanup.
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I would like to suggest tuo things to make this panel 22 more responsive.
One is to allow periods like this for people to b
23 express their concerns briefly before business is conducted by I
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, the panel; and two, to allow citizens to make comments, suggestions i
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nd changes to the panel's agenda for the evening in order that l
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their concerns xould be addressed. That is essentially all that I 2
really have to say.
3 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
I will respond to your two points.
4 Number one, we have attempted to let folks address the panel.
As 5, I pointed out to you, I do not quite agree that it is sign,ificant !
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in on a certain issue or a certain topic, and we then ask for 4
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! people to come who can address those topics and to change that z,
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g 10 t agenda that evening would be extremely difficult.
You know, I 1
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y 12 continue to try to do.that.
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j 16 l had where we zerced in on specific topis, we cannot spend the 2
17 whole evening in another direction.
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MR. GROHLEY:
The intent is to provide an opportunt.ty P
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19 l early on in your meeting so people's concerns can be brought n
20 forws.rd before business is initiated.
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21 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
I understand.
22 MR. DAVIS:
Mr. Minnich, Grant Davis is my name.
I 23 would like to suggest that the committee consider calling some 24 expert witnesses on various phases of the cleanup and worker 25j saftety, such as, just for instance, Mancuso Ratford, or Carl ll ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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3 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Is there anyone else, know if your.
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Would you identify yourself, please?
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6i MR. SMITHGALL:
Thomas Smithgall.
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7' Again, I will ask the same question that I asked at.the 2
8 last meeting, and that is has there been any mo, tion towards d
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9! replacing the people that are vacant on the panel at this point?
l 0y 10 l I would like to kind of tag on.what Jim has said, that i
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH :
That is right.
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To my knowledge, there has not been,- and of course, I a
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I am just not in a position to
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I7 Bill, are you aware?
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18 MR. SMITHGALL:
Maybe I can ask a question then, P
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Is it true that there are approximately three vacancies 20I on the panel at this point in time taking into consideration i
2I I that this state is one?
I 22l' CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Counting the state as one, there 23 '
are three, yes.
24 MR. SMITHGALL:
Maybe I can just ask a few questions 25 before Bill can comment.
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Originally, how many were on the panel?
2 CHAIRMAN MINNICH: ' Twelve, I believe.
3 Bill, do you have any comments?
4 MR. TRAVERS:
The Commission, as a matter of fact, is I
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actively pursuing replacement membership on the panel. I would 9
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expect in the near future that there would be one in that same E
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Is there any timeline on that at all, oy 10 l do you know?
E Il MR. TRAVERS There is no deadline, if that is what you 3
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MR. SMITEGALL:
No, I was referring to'a timeline, not
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next month?
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I would say that it would be within the A
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month, just guessing.
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18 CHAIRMAN:
Thank you. Tom.
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Mr. Chairman, f,r t..e record, could I just 20l mention that I think that it would have been highly inappropriate
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2I to replac3 at least one of those individuals until recently.
As 22 to Mr. palodino, I guess that that has just recently come into i
23 fruition.
I do not think that there really has been a dragging 24 ) out.
I think that now is the time to act, but I think that in the 25 i past that there would have been some inappropriateness to replace i
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1, at least one of those panel members.
2 CHAIR M -MINNICH:
You are right, and I'have been, as 3
has the NRC, been in contact with the Governor about a deci aion 4
on the state.
That I am sure will be-forthcoming, 5I Is there anyone else; yes, sir, go ahead.
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6l MR. ROACH:
Donald Roach is my name, and I am a worker, j
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a steel worker, in Local 1688, and we have a couple of fears.
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Not all of us, mind you, have these fears, but we are wondering 4
2, 9l what happens to the nuclear waste.
We melt steel down and it 0
0y 10 has either been intimated or written that some radioactive waste -
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11 l may be coming down through the miils at a future time judging I
j 12 l by avowed intentions of the nuc1(tr people to get rid of this 3
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2 15 the names of any of the workers who have already been contaminated 5
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in TMI because we would like to talk to them, hear their fears s
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17 ; and see their attitudes, and see what they think of the longterm 3
y 18 health ef fects themselves.
Because we right now in steel are
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19 monitored for 1.ead content and other things, not for radiation; 20 not all the workera, but the ones who are dealing with the 21 situaticr. in steel making.
I 22 Also, we would like to know why Pennsylvanians are not-23, being made responsible for the waste from TMI, why are we shipping 24 !
xt out of the state.
I think uhat
.t is rather disloyal as a 25 state considering the laws.
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH: 'Well, let me tell you, Donald, if you 2
have not been aware of what is happening in this state, you 3
certainly should be.
We cannot even get people to agree on a i
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Compound that by dealing with toxic 4
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MR. ROACH:
I should think that if we are so pro nuclear, 3
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Explain what you mean by contaminated, 3
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13 i MR. ROACH:
Exposed, whatever the word is that is used.
l 14 f I am not a low level radiation fan myself.
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2 15 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Right.
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16 I MR. GERUSKY:
Mr. Chairman.
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i 17 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Yes.
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18 ll MR.GERUSKY:'Mr. Chairman, there is a privacy problem C
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associated with this.
If the workers are willing -- you can make M
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21l contaminated to come meet with you, ac.d it is up to them.
Under 22 f our regulations and under NRC regulations, the company cannot 23 reveal the names for the exposures.
That is a medical record and 4
24 that is private.
So there is a problem in handing out to anyone 25 names of individuals unless they agree, and that is the problen..
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Relating to the waste diaposal situation, the Governor 2
in his presentation today announced that he as chairman of the 3l ca 14 x1 of ncrtheastern governors is working on an agreement the northeastern states to have a compact for a low level 1
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of the environmental committee of the coalition of northeastern o
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states for regional disposal sites and the compact can be
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exclusive to those states in the compact after January 1, 1986.
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So we in the northeast do not have a disposal site, but we must 17 3
have a disposal site by January 1, 1986 or there will be no place 5
18 to dispose of low level waste.
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j There are three locations in the country where 20
- Pennsylvania waste is shipped; Nevada, South Carolina, and the 21 State of ashington.
All three are working towards compacts and 22 !'
!willexclude, in my opinion, will exclude the non-compact states i
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l from disposing in their sites on January 1, 1986. It is not very i
24 i far away, 1986 is pretty darn close.
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j MR. ROACH:
Before the decision is going to be made on i
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No, no.
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MR. ROACH:
It will be after that.
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MR. GERUSKY:
No, a decision on the location for a I
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waste disposal site in the northeast will have to be made in the 3
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next year so that site will be ready for 1986.
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process as far as impact statements, hearings, licensing, who is a
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ll level waste site in the northeast.
Getting the states together j
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MR. RdACE-
.cne.of-the. things.that: people do ' not under.
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stand is that.. eventually they~ are going to have to have.their 5
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There are a lot of people who
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N I7 MR. GERUS KY :
This is not radioactive, low level toxic a
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Toxic. other waste. It is the whole 5
20 ball of wax, and it is not going to be easy to solve.
2I AR. ROACH:
It is going to come to this where we will be 22 locally held in the northeast.
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CHAIMAN MINNICH:
We are very much aware of that, Mr.
94 i Roach.
i 25 MR. GERUSKY:
We have been working with the Department i
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I of Energy and other agencies in looking at the methodologies for 2i low level waste disposal and we believe that the best approach in 3
the northeast is an engineered waste disposal site so that you I
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l 8l Mr.. ROACH :
This is interesting, because this is the d
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MR. GERUSKY:
All I am saying is that we must have a E
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with the northeastern states to get a site.
That is as far as I
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go, who knows what is going to happen.
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But we are responsible for it, because it
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should be taken into the decirion.
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We were made aware of this in
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18 i January, that Congress had passed this legislation,and it was our
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first meeting in January-that we were advised of this legislation.
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20 li MR. ROACH:
It has been overridden for a while to the 21 best of my knowledge, has it not; we can s till send our waste to 22 Washington and North Ca.alina.
23 '
CHAIRMAN: MINNICH:
Yes, because of a recent court action 24 yes, but how long that will remain -- I am sure that they will 25 '
file an appeal.
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MR. GERUSKY:
You will notice that BP&L has announced 2
that they are requested to build a storage area for their low J
3 level waste on site at the Berwick plant under the asaumption 4
that there may not be a place to dispose of waste by that time.
e 5 I CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Mr. Roach, that is why this panel 0
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6 concentrated and felt that it should concentrate on the issue l of getting that 7
j low level waste 'off of the Island before the July s
j 8l 1st deadline, and we taok a very strong positio,n with the NRC who d
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9l in turn eventually agraed with our position, and because of z
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10 I corroboration, etcete.a, those 22 casks have been removed.
Do not 3
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get me wrong, there is still waste down there, but those 22 have 1
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We were faced with a deadline, the closing, and nowhere E
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else to go, and we did not want it sitting down there forever.
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5 I4 l You know, that was one of the issues that we worked on very i
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x 16 i MR. ROACH:
Thank you, very much.
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N I7 CHAIR EN MINNICH:
Thank you.
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5 I8 Before!you start, before I forget folks, they have extra h
19, copies of tne Governor's press release today.
If you have not n
20 seen it, it is available over here in the box, and any or all are 2I welcome to a copy. Thank you.
12 MR. GERUSKY:
The Governor's office has stated that all 23 you have co do is write to them and they will send you a copy, if 24 you do not want to carry one home, or call them.
I have copies.
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MR. MANIK:
Al Manik, Middletown.
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' CHAIRMAN MINNICH:. Hello, Al.
2 MR. MANIK:
Good evening,i John, we are old friends.
3 What I want to talk about tonight, in tonight's paper 4l thers was an article on embrittlement of, I presume, some steel-
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5 ll in a reactor someplace, I do not know exactly where.
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I presume that this deals with-hydrogen embrittle-R i
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8 sensitive aircraft in Warner Robbins, we set up a system whereby d
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
A1, that is what I mean, that is a
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15 read tne :.rticle, anI perhaps when we get going here, as we'get z
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MR. MANIK:
Okay, I would like to shortcut my statement
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this because of the timeframe, perhaps maybe your committee could 20 develop something and pick up the information.
This disturbs
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If we cannot talk about it tonight, maybe I could talk to 22 l you.
23 l' CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
We will try to talk about it tonight.
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MR. M IK:
All right, thanx you.
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CHAIRMAN: MINNICH:
Is there anyone else?
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1 1 l MS. PICKERING:
My name is Kay Pickering and I work in i
2l the office at Three Mile Island Alert.
It has come to our 3
attention that the colicity surrounding the advisory panel e
l 4l meetings is light; maybe that is not the appropriate word to use.
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We knew for about a week and an half of where it was to be held, 0
6; the time, and all that sort of stuff.
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10 j Ne have had calls at the beginning of the week from j
11 people who received it or heard about it through their friends 3
g 12 l saying where do we ge: the information.
They had not seen it in 5
1 13 I the paper, they had not heard about it on the radio, and the, had l
14 l not heard abor.t it on TV.
Why are we so privy to the information 15 l ss to where or when the advisory panel is meeting, 2
and it is 'not g
16 ' open to"the public?
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17 What I mm saying is that is is very, very important that b
5 18 ' there be adequate publicity far enough ahead of the advisory panel c
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meetings, and we are also asking you that the agendas be printed t
3 20f so that people know whether you are talking about waste, worker 21 safety, what types of expertise you are going to have, what issues 22 they can zero in on so that they can make appropiate comments at 23 these meetings.
24 We are also suggesting that there be paid publicity, not 25.
just depend on PSA's that are to be sent out a week ahead, our ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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l 1 - additional concern is that the language of the ads that be placed
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2 be appropriate for the general-public.
Many people have come to 3 : us and said that the technology, the words that are used, are 1
4 l just too far above me.
I do not understand what is going on, I c
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do not understand technical terms. I want to be a part of this, Nj 6
I want to have a give and take with the advisory panel, but I need E
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8 f talking about and what is going on so I can understand and be part 4
1 91 of the process.
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- y 10 i CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Kay, first of all, we did not know z
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11 until about the same time where we were going to meet. -We knew a
I j-12 < when we met in Lancaster that we had selected the date, but we 5
j 13 ! did not know at that time where it would be, in Harrisburg some-
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As far as I know, the announcement on the meeting is a e
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15 very simple announcement that the. advisory committee is meeting a
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I do not understand the technical, above people's heads 5
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MS. PICKERING:
The announcement we are suggesting in 20 addition to what you presently do is that there should be a paid 21 l announcement that is put into local papers.
22 l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
I understand that, but you are not 23 addressing my question.
I do not understand the language th'at is 24 f above someone's head.
If I see something that I can agree with i
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you, I will agree with you, but to my knowledge, it is a very D
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announcement simply saying -- it comes out of the NRC, that the 2
panel is meeting at such and such a time and at such and such a 3
location.
We de not put an agenda in it, true.
4 MS. PICKERING :
We are asking for some sort of agenda.
5 CHAIRMAN MINNISH :
I understand that.
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For instance, tonight we do not have an agenda.
We are R
7 playing it by ear, okay. How would Ne print that, we are going to 7.
j 8l play it by ear tonight.
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And you would not have any expert people I
l 10 who would be addressing the panel, we think that that is z:
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11j important.
If there are experts who are coming, their names or 3
y 12 something about them be included, so people will ' enow that ahead 4
13 j of time.
The language problem I think has to do more with l
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16 j CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
But that is not in our province, w
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g 17 MS. PICKERING:
For instance, there are quite afew 5
l 18 I people here tonight.
There m'y be ita.ns that come up tonight E
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19 that we would not understand or need clarifying.
Can'c there be i
i 20 an effort so that we would understand what actuall; is the I
21 i bottom line in the issues, that they can be clarified or 21 reiterated in terms that we would all understand.
23 '
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
I am going to confess to you that 24li sometimes I am not sure what is going to be said either.
All one 25l has to do is raise their hand and we would be glad to try to have i
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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l 1. rephrase it in language that they underrtand.
I do not see that
- l 2 I as any problem. I~can only refer the request for the paid notice 3
to the NRC.
I am not sure how it is handled exactly.
I depend 4
on those folks, I have-other things that I am tied up in.
I do i
s-5, not handle that, Bill takes care of it,for us.
As for the E
j 6; agendas, you know, we really do not have a specific agenda.
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agree that we may want to discuss a specific area; for instance, 1-l l
8' the last meeting was devoted to worker exposure,.
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5 13 l MS. PICKERING:
We hnve also asked for additional
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Exactly, and in fact, I am circulating d
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8 19 l MS. PICKERING:
Thank you.
n 20 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Is there anyone else?
21 MR. SINGER:
My name is Dale Singer.
22 Are you encertaining questions on Thornberg's statement 23 '
in the paper tonight?
24 l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
No, because for one thing -- I should 25 not be so presumptuous, I can only speak for myself, and then I i
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I have not even had a chance to 1
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I will try.
$j 15 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Where are you from?
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Lancaster.
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the cost?
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No, we have not.
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That kind of thing has not been discussed?
22,
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
No, we have not.
23 '
MR. SINGER:
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because he is saying that you know, when we set up these ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 insurance funds for utilities that will be paid by the rate payers, 2 ! etcetera; the whole <-hing is a list of what the rate payers would 3
pay as opposed to the stockholders.
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Fine.
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Sir.
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I..am going to cut it off.
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If you do not mind then, when we finish we will come back I
22
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23 MR. PEFI LEY :.Thank you, my name is Dan Peffley, and I 24l live within the ten mile area.
I am a : tan, and what affects my 25 fellow man is a concern of mine.
I see this article in the paper i
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here.
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Which one, sir?
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The Harrisburg paper.
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their capacity in the next three years."
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their capacity in three years and that is'before'1986,.why is it 3_
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Our charge is to get the 22 unit cleaned up, and that has been what we have been concentrating 23 on. - I might share with you that I have spent, along with some of 24 the panel members, a very frustrating time in Washington, D.C.
25 j over the exact issue that you are talking about.
There are many l
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responsibility of the Federal government, and there is a brand 24 l new bill, the Udall sponsored bill, I think that it is 626, but i
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I have it on my desk, it just came in today.
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i 1i That d.trects itself towards the high level waste issue 1
2 in that respect, and there are three or four pieces or legisla: ion 3
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I think that you guys are doing a
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Thank you.
l 21 I would like for the panel members so we know exactly 22 where we are with Unit 2, I am going to call on Gale to come 23 forward and brief the panel on exactly where they are at with 24 j the cleanup and tell us if the system went into operation this i
25 afternoon, etcetera, etcetera.
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l-MR. HOVEY:. Gale Hovey, Director of TMI 2.
2 We have made a number of accomplishments, Mr. Minnich, 3'
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One was shipped to Battelle Columbus laboratories, 21 one of the higher level liners for examination.
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ing in Columbus next week on that from the people 24 who are loing the examination work.
The remaining 49 are still 25 on site.
We are engaged, or rather the Dupartment of Energy is l
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engaged in a development program for 'afhigh integrity container 2
on those liners.
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Washington's disposal site is currently still open because of the 4
injunction issued by the Federal District Court judge, and I think 5
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25 i
so those are kind of the key elements, and certainly, if I
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thera are any questions that the panel may have, I would be happy 2
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3 MR.'GERUSKY:
'I never did find out what was found out by I
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21 MR. REID:
Gale, on the SDS, the question occurred to me j
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timeframe involved from the water that is starting to be 24l processed to the time that it hits the storage tank.
In other 25 words, say, on August 1st at 8:00 the water goes in, when will i
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You say that it takes about a day to
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Yes, roughly.
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This will constantly monitored; in other
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21 MR HOVEY:
Yes, at various stages along.
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saw the sampling glave boxes today.
Ther are connected to 24 vsrious points in the system, and we have got limits.
I might 25 say that once it goes through the SDS or even through the i
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Epicore II; it does not go im:,tdiately out to our processed water 2
storage tax.ks or immediately through Epicore II.
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One other question, I am sure that it is not nl 8l an easy question, and you have talked about it, and we have all d
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20 ' flow problem that Metropolitan Edison has as fifty percent owner l of the plant, and that is the situation that says that you cannot 22 {' pay yodr.. bills.t.c..You cannch have' the hfgit. level 6f ef fort: if you 23 ' cannot borrow the money from the banks which is our on'.y source of 24 f funding right now for cash, short term borrowings.
You just do 25 l not have that.
The banks have basically been disappointed in what i
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the PUC has done in the case of rate relief, and they have not been 2
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Gale, when we were down there today, 5
l 20 9e area where the SDS system is, which was contaminated and has 21 been cleaned up at_least enough to give general access, you told 22 l me that you usec'., I do not remember the figure, x number of 23 l people in there washing walls, etcetera.
It follows that once 24 l you get into the main centainment building that same process has 25 to be followed.
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MR. HOVEY:
Yes, that is correct.
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basis in dncontemination.
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The only reason that I raise that is n
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No, that is correct, and the decentamination L
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of the TMI.2 containment building down to pre-accident levels is 2
going to be a.long process,,much of that taking place after --
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4 CHAIRMM M!.NNICH:
Will the fuel rods be removed before e
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11 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Are they any other questions. folks?
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the ones that we shipped off.
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'containe rs.
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placing the material in its dewatered form into containers that 2
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The containers would, once they are E
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It would be purchased by us, and we would i
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They are lead lined, are they not?
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Just to pursue this a little bit further, t
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Yes.
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How does this fit in wi th, and pardon me if I
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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different?
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No, the only R&D work apart from the 3
demonstration, if you will, of the high integrity container that 4
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That waa what I was thinking of.
21 I am trying to picture what is going to happen with low i
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25 of solution for each one of them.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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MR. HOVEY:
Given the avdilability of disposal sites, 2
we feel:that we have a logical place to send all of this except 3
for spent fuel which remains a problem.
I do not consider spent 4
fuel waste, by the way, but that is a separate subject, too.
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Is it not really true though, Gale, h
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That is correct.
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That is correct, and that I cannot 5
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That which cannot go to shallow land disposal 5
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Is it also ne* true that you have to w
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Yes, that.'is true.
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20 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Bear that in mind, please.
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That is why I might say that it was a very I
22f key milestone in our mind that the DOE did see it in their R&D 23 charter to take the SDS -- which by the way, you know, is going to i
24 contain the vast majority in the containment building, the total 25, amount of radioactivity.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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MR. MORRIS:
But to go back to Epicore T: again, the 2
waste that you are saying would be ultimately be placed in special 3
containers and possibly shipped to shallow land disposal, you say 4l possibly; in other words, what the Chairman has 'said here is that 5l! there is a potential there that they would not' be acceptable to g
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accomplished, and furthermore, at the time of the accident, there 19 '
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20 j Governor Ray, regarding the kind of waste that woul<. be shipped 21ll to Hanford.
Basically, Governor Ray's, and I do nct know that the 22 current Governor's feelings are on it, but basically, Governor 23 : Ray's feelings and statement was well, yes, she understood, and 24 l as f ar as she was concerned, she would not prohibit the shipment 25 '
of waste from Three Mile Island to the tanford site as long as it l
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was like "similar to normal reactor waste."
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isotopic concentration, but in' terms of total reactivity, it is 5
very much like normal reactor plant waste.
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Could I as': you one last question on this, M
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20 MR. MORRIS:
There seems to be four of five major ways.
2I MR. HOVEY:
We have told them as far as what is going 22 to be disposed as waste, but to put it in a flow chart form, we 23 !
have not yet, but it could be developed.and we will provide it to 24 you.
25 MR. MORRIS:
Fine.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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I do not want to say anything to Gale, but a number of I
letters that I have written to Congress,and to President Reagan, 3'
and to President Carter when he was President, addressing the idea 4
of using Federal funds for the cleanup -- now Gale is sitting 5l there telling us that certain kinds of activities will have.to n
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16 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
You k vith us down there and you h
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If you loon at the whole situation, nuclear I
19 l energy is the responsibility of the Congress of the United States, S
I 20 and if you look at the Preamble, in the Preamble the purposes for 21 the Constitution, and or a of the purposes is to promote the 22 general welf are, and ;nat is the Federal government coming to the t
I 23 l aid of the people when the people cannot help themselves. I think 24 that we have just t..at type situation in this area.
25 When'yau talk to some of the Congressmen, the first l
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thing they talk about is bailing out GPU or Metropolitan Edison l
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I think that you have to look at it from the standpoint 3
that you are not bailing out those people, but you are bailing out 4
the good citizens-living in this area, living near the site.
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Bob, we cannot even get our state l
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That is true.
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We are 23 talking about the health and the welfare of the people living in 24 l
th.s area.
25 I just cannot see why the Congress of the United States t
ALDERSON REPORT:NG COMPANY, INC.
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cannot recognize that fact and come in and say, look, we are done 2
talking about politics, w4 are going to deal with it from the 3
human standpoint, not as politicians, because politicians some-4 times do -- well. -- L think that you have to look at it from a g
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Anne.
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I pretty much agree with Mayor Reid.
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Tom, you had a qt.estion of Gale.
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22 Am I correct in that, high level waste, I am talking 23 h about now?
24l MR. HOVEY:
No, that is not true, there are casks 25[
available to ship.if we could ship the Epicore II pre-filters i
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someplace.
In fact, we did ship one completely in compliance with.
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3 MR. SMITHGALL:
Maybe I should ask the question rather 4
than making a statement.
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3" CHAIRMAN Mic4NICH:. And it is now being developed?
20 MR. HOVEY:
It is now being developed.
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
To answer h!.s question.
l MR. HOVEY:
It is now being developed, but that 23 l particular piece of hardware for thi s particular application does 24 i i not exist today.
There are these high integrity containers for t
25 i
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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material of lower 'pecific activity that have been developed or 2
about ready to go into commercial.use.
3 MR.' SMITHGALL:
I think that the import.of the whole 4
thing 'is tha'. potentiality ' of. not.having appropriate means of..
5l disposal shd having: wa' teisitting..onithAt :Islandu p:
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I.think that we realize that, Tom, R
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8 MR. SMITHGALL:
I just wanted to make sure.
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Yes, I am very much aware and ig 10 concerned, but this'is a monster, there is no question about it.
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20 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Fine, let us get to that.
2I MR. BARRETT:
I am Lake Barrett, I am Deputy Director 22 l of Three Mile Island Program Office.
The question on the 23l; embrittlement, this is not hydrogen embrittlement.
It has nothing i'
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The issue here is that as steel is 25 irradiated from neutrons that are produced during the fissioning l
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pliable, and it becomes more brittle.
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place as all the scientific projections said that it would be.
2 TMI 1 was one of the 43 that were asked.
3 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
What was their response?
4 MR. BARRETT:
I do not know the specifics on the TMI g
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Okay, Al?
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What you were speaking of were test 1
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10 MR. BARRETT:
That is correct.
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I need some clarity.
I undarstand what you 3
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This is 21 my interest.
22 Who has the knowledge of thu tests; were these radio-23l graphs, Rockwell tested, or what was the manner?
There has to be 24 some specific test, because this is an old program, this is 25 nothing new to the industry.
But this is what was asking, this is
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what I want to know,.how the program was developed.
You can tell 2
me, well, not much.
You can crack that. glass and say, well, it 3
has a small crack.
How was the program developed, that is what 4
I am interested in.
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MR. BARRETT:
The actual program is very complicated.
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TMI did.
The NRC has done tests, research reactors, and things 25 like that.
I do not think that we tested specifically the TMI i
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orms, but Doug, do you have some more information?
2 MR. BEDELL: I am Doug Bedell, the press spokesman for 3
Three Mile Island and I am not a technical person, but I was in 4
touch with our technical people yesterday on this quesion.
One 5
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and BM1 sent those samples to the Oakridge National Laboratory o
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I4j That accelerated testing indeed indicated that.
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made based on the coupons in the reactor itself indicate that the 17 embrittlement process at Unit 1 is occurring slower than what was 5
I0 l anticipated.
It is not expected to be any kind of a problem for u
many years, and when it is a problem, there are things that can 20 } be done about it; namely, the core can be removed, the metal can 21 be heated, and through a process known as ennealing,its original 22 ductility restored.
It is something that is planned for some 23 ; distance down the road.
24 l MR. SMITH:
What you auys are really talking about is 25
! kind of a tracking..Under the natural conditions that exist in i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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that core, sometime down the road through a process of natural 2
electolysis of the' alpha and gamma radiation, it is going to 3
begin again.
4 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
You did: not.. identify yourself.
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My name is Andy Smith frem Hersey, o
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Which core are you speaking of?
zoy 10 MR. SMITS:
The actual --
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II l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Are you talking about Unit 1 or I
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Uni t. 2.
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Unit 2.
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This is only on Unit 1.
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The problem of 9
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it, 7 share the same Island with TMI, but we have a completely i
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and embrittlement is not one that I have.
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23 I TMI 1 does not have to worry about the kinds of waste that I do.
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Pardon my lack of knowle(Ige en this particular problem which is 25 '
really an operating reactor problem.
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But this is a problem in a reactor that is operating, 2
and not one that shuts down.
Remember that TMI 2 only operated 3
approzimately ninety equivalent full power days before the 4
accidents, so in terms of any embrittlement, it is virtually non-g 5l existant because it did not operate that long.
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CPAIRMAN MINNICH:
Go ahead.
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b 7
MR. SMITH:
It will break down to --
n 8
8 N
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
You are still talking about Unit 2 d
6 9 \\
j j now?
2 g
10 l MR. SMITH:
Yes, sir.
E 4
II CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Go ahead.
3 d
12 '
E l
MR. SMITH:
It will break to the initial hydrogen and 4
g 13 I oxygen gam =a, and recreate a bubble, and blow up the same as the
=
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5
'# l one that did in Siberia, Russia and kill close to half a million t9 15 l g
- people.
16 1 3
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
I am not even going to respond.to i
4 i
d 17 :
that.
E 18 l w
l l
MR. BARRETT:
To answer your question, you are right, H
I 19 8
i there is radiation in the core, and the radiation will dissociate M
20 water into hydrogen and oxygen.
That is a fact, that is right.
21 The way you prevent the buildup of oxygen and hydrogen in the 22
! reactor system is the excess hydrogen is put into pressurizedi 23 ' water reactors to drive the reaction the other way, so if oxygen 24 ;
is generated, it combines.withlhyd' ogen and goes back to water.
r l That is how all pressurized witer reactors control the dissociation i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
6
48 I
water.
2-MR. SMITH :. And you have a system that is still working 3.
in there t 4
MR. BARRETT:
That is right, there is extra hydrogen in 5
the Unit 2. reactor right now that drives that reaction to prevent 6
that from happening.
It is just like Unit 1 or any of the other n
b 7
pressurized water reactors.
A k
0 I MR. SMITH:
You still have control of that?
d*
9
}.
MR. B ARRETT :
Yes.
10 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Al?
=
II MR. MANIK:
I will get with Mr. Barrett in the office 3
y 12 and we will talk this over.
s 5
l f
13 l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Fine.
l 14 {
MR. MANIK:
We could be 09 this all night and accomplish a
h I$ l no thing.
=. 16 I.
I d
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Obviously,. and I am just assuming, A
h II-it is rather technical; the tests and no on.
=
i M
18 i
.=
l By the way, Frank Davis, do not leave, please, I would 19 I j'
l like to talk to you after this is over for just a moment.
20 '
MR. PEFFLEY:
John.
21l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Yes.
i 22 l MR. PEFFLEY:
Can I ask a question?
l 23 '
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Sure, Dan, go ahead.
24 !
.i MR. PEFFLEY:
What is the anticipated rate increase that 25 : you would have to have in order _to get the funds to continue I_
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
g.
49 1' your cleanup of TMI 27 2
MR. HOVEY:
I am not in the rate portion of the utility, 3
and I am trying to avoid your auestion.
I would be happy to find 4 l' the answer out for you.
It is available, but I just do ret happen e
5 to remember the numbers.
What was requested was-a. rate increase
?.
6 which included funds to clean up TMI 2. I do not remember that if 6.
7 all of that happened, if the Fublic Utility Commission said, yes, j
8, all of.those rates will be allowed, I do not remembeir the d
d 9
E.
percentage rate increase.
10 Phil or Doug,,do you remember what that was?
I just do i
Il not remember.
3 1
g 12 l MR.BEDELL:
If other forms of aid were not a*cailable 5
i f
13 l from Congress or from whatever source to the nuclear industry, a
l 14 the bottom line increase would have bee 23 percent.
5 j
15 !
MR. HOVEY:
That rings a bell.
=
3[
I6 l MR. PEFFLEY:
How many years would you have to operate l
h I7 at that 22 percent in order to recapture your cost of cleanup aa
=
E 18 l far as your operation of your TMI 1 is concerned; I mean that it c
I9 is easy to' state 22 percent, but how.. long ia it going to take?
20 Ane~other question is this, I am concerned about the 21 critique as far as our Congressmen and legislators are concerned, i
22 and.I.am concerned to the point that I wonder if Congress would i
23
'und, and I as. a taxpayer would help to fund to help clean up 24 l TMI 2, what would be the response of Met Ed as far as the Federal 25 ' government going in there and assuming the responsibility in doing
)i I
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
50 I
I it?
1 i
l 2I You know. I am also concerned about these casksuto 3
transport this_ low level or this high level radiation.
When you 4,
are alternate routes to go, and there is plea bargaining, there is 5
a lot of manipulating and gerrymandering in. the process, you are 6
going to wind up with the cheapest process as far as the money R
'b 7
manipulators are concered.
If we are not going to have a safe l
8 operation, then I think that what you fellows ought to do is to d
~.
9I overview this situation, and if there is a way to do it safe z
i O
h 10 let us do it one time.
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E IIl I do not mind paying.
I cannot' afford it, but.there are
^
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f I2 a lot of things that I can%c afford,but I am going to have to I
f 13 I pay it. If the ecmpany is not in the position to do what they a
I4 have to do, then just get them out of the picture and just go I
b IE ahead to do the thing.
y 16 (Applause) a I7 MR. HOVEY:
I would like to respond to some of that.
?.
l 0l There were a number of things there.
First of all, I might say g
that if the panel wishes to get into a discussion of rates,and 20 what is in the rate-filing, and that sort of thing, I am just 21 l not an expert at that.
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
It is outside of car jurisdiction 23 'h for the moment.
MR. HOVEY:
But we can certainly arrange to have a 25 i
number of people here who could address that in great detail.
t ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
51 I
In terms of the Federal government taking over responsiblity for 2
the cleanup of TMI 2, and I presume that you meant actually doing 3
work, I think that the most likely thing were for some reason 4-that that would happen, is that like it or not, most of the present, 5
j people who are there would have to do the job, because they are 9
i l'
]
6I the ones' who know how to do the job.
In terms of cutting corners C
l 7l on the development of the high integrity container,which I think 5
A 8l 5s the question was directed at, I do. not think - that there are going 0
?
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9l to be any corners cut.
o 1
g 10 l
.There is set of critoria for those that has been agreed 9
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12 i
Regulatory Commission said those were pecper criteria.
You know, 5
i 13 !
j it is building something that will do this,. and if it will do I4 that, I think that that is what is important regardless of how I
I I0 I much it costs.
You do not have to have something that will do a
=
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2 F
17 '
d MR. PEFFLEY:
This is true, but if you are going to do E
IOllit, you might as well do it right the first time if you are r
i 19 ;
dealing with something like this.
8 i
a 0l MR. HOVEY:
I believe that it is going to be done right the first time.
22 MR. PEFFLEY:
You know, it is just like this hullabaloo l
23 '
that goes on -- I am talking out of turn -- but if the control panel with the precipitator valves were located where your i'
25 l operator could hava ceen it instead of on the backside of that h
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
52 I
panel, a whole lot of these things that have transpired wouldn' t 2
'have transpired, and you know what I am talking about.
3 MR. HOVEY:
Yes, I think that I am aware of rhat you.
4 are talking about.
5
.g MR. PEFFLEY:
In Unit }, we do not have that, but here 9
'j 6l you have something that was covered up.
I mean, if we are going R
i N.,
7 to do the same thing from here on out, I do not feel safe. It l
8l is a matter of credibility as f ar as I am concern. ed.
9 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Yes.
3!
10 MR. REID:
A lot of people that you talk to, they have i!!
=
i II i dubbed T..ree Mile Island as Three Mile Island University, and I~
E
)
Y I2 f would like to know about the tuition that is being paid by g
13 foreign governments who send people into this area to sit down n
I4 and study the accident a', Three Mile Island and go to their own
$i i
15 country with the knowledge that they have gained just by being 3[
I6 I over here.
A j
N I7 What have they donated as far as the cleanup?
5 I8 l, MR. HOVEY:
ha have had a number of foreign nationals at I
e I9 l g
TMI 2.
I forget the exact number, but I think that it is on the n
l 20 order of fifteen.
They come from Holland, Italy, Germany, l
2I Sweden, Japan, France, Spain.
I think that what we have gained 22 l
frcm those people has been on balance a significant benefit.
All l
i l
23 of them come at their own expense.
We provide them office space, 24 period.
25l MR. REID.
But they came here to deal with something l
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
53 1
that they never witnessed in their country, or in fact, anywhere.
2l in the world, and they went back with a great deal of knowledge 3
just in case that same thiLJ would happen ir their coul.try.
4 MR. HOVEY:
Yes.
1
)
i5j MR. REID:
If I were t.4e head of a country and I was e
5
]
6l daaling with nuclear energy, and I would send people to this l
A.
I country to gain as much Lt.owledge as they could because of an sj 8
accident, I would at leart try to. assist that country with some d
I 9l kind of mutual contribution.
?
10 MR. HOVER:
There has been contributions, Mayor Reid, E
II in the form of these people.
They do not just come here, sit, 3
y 12 study and look at-things ; they work, they work as engineers.
=
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1 5
13 i MR. REID:
That is true, they work as engineers, but i
fl#
they are gaining knowledge at our expense, so to speak.
kj 15 !
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Mayor,'are you telling me that if I
=
g 16 asked you for assistance from Middletown Borough, that you would I
N I7 give the county financial help?
s IO !
MR. REID:
No, I think that there is a different 3
9 i
19 3
situation here, JacI.
It is a different situation.
n 20 MR. HOVEY:
I think that there is an important point 21 here.
We have had meetings with representatives of foreign.
22 governments, and this subject of foreign assistance was broached.
I Frankly, Mayor Reid, you get the same response bascially form 23 24l them that you do from other utilities who were asked to t
l 25 contribute, the analogy is there.
In the case _ of the other l
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
54 l
1 utilities, we would go up to utility executives, and the rest of 2'
the utility industry said, yep, we will sign up for cleanup, but 3,
what they say is, you kl.ow, it is very difficult for us to f
4 contribute money.
It will reduce our stockholder's profit or we i
i s
5i will put it in our own customers', rates. In the State of 6!
Pennsylvania and the Pub.'.ic Utility Commissioner, at least this R
I 7' was several weeks ago, there in not much movement there.
l i
j 8l In the case of assistance from foreign governements, d
n; 9l even though they are vitally interested in TMI 2 and its progress,
z O
i g
10 !
it is very difficult to ask foreign governements tor financial l
j 11l assistance when we cannot even make a start at it ourselves, but D
1 g
12 ' it is an extremely difficalt thing to do.
E g
13 l MR. REID:
When you cannot even get any help from:your
=
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5 14 '
own goverz=ent, I understand that.
i
, j 15 '
MR. HOVEY:
I think that the same thing applies.
I
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think that if there is this car sensus that develops, I think a
d 17 that properly approached that there might be some foreign x=
18 i assistance forthcoming.
I think that we would have to put the 5
19 I b
g 3 plant in place ourselves firs t.
As an exa ple, something like 5
i 20l what Governor Thornburg was talking about. It gces beyoind that, 2I!
too.
Like it or not, the accident happened, and I think that 1
1 22 '
there have been a number of lessons learned.
It thin'.' that the l
23 !
industry is better because of it, and I think that there is a lot l
l l
24 more to be learned. The nuclear industry is not only in this 25 county, it.is worldwide.
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
55 1
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Mayor, I understand what you are 2
getting at.
3 Laec month when we met and discussed the worker 4
exposure, we sort of tenatively agreed that we would come back to e
5 this meeting and try to decide what, if anything, that we wanted ~
9 3
6 to do with what was developed at that meeting.
Unfortunately, E
E 7l Tom who is the requestor of that topic is not here, and my 3
i j
8l question to the panel is, do you want to discuss last month's d
i z,
9l meeting tonight er do you want to hold it until Tom is here and O
oy 10 then make the decision?
II l MR. REID:
Hold it until Tom is here.
3 i
Y 12 I CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
All right.
5 i
5 13 l a
MR. REID:
.here is another point on than, and that I
z 5
14 would be to have these experts that I. think that. Frank-and10ther
$j 15 l people have talked about to come in and discuss this.
We sat
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^
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17 f said, can.you'p. lease put.it_into numbers that we can understand,
=-
I8 speaking not for himself but all of us, I assume. I think that it I9 g
would really be helpful to have some other people come in besides n
20 our panel member Tom to into it.
21 If I remember correctly, Tom's visw was certainly 22 disputed by I think everybody there.
That does not necessarily i
l 23 l make him wrong, but I think that it would be helpful if we could 24-hear from some other people on that subject.
I.think that the i
i 25 subject is so important.that we should have others come in on that-ALDERSON REPORTING COMP ANY, INC.
56 I
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
All right.
2-I wonder if I could raice a question with Dan Peffley 3
and Dale Singer. You have raised an intriging question in my 4
mind, and I do not want you to respond to this tonight, but I 5
g wonder if perhaps at the next meeting that you might consider 3
6'l sharing with this panel how you would approach the payment of the o
w R
7 f cleanup, would you do that?
M l
I 3
8 a
i MR. SINGER:
Yes, I would.
d 9l d
1 j
j CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Dan?
o I
h MR. PEFFLEY:
What I say is constructive criticism.
=
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As individuals, you are not responsible -- you are just responsible i
12 l g
j for your job.
Your company is in dire need of financing.
It U
13,.
j l cannot clean up TMI 2 anless you have help, from what I gather, E
14 '
y am I right or am I wrong?
=
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MR. HOVEY:
That is correct.
l T
16 f 3
MR. PEFFLEY:
If that is co. rect, then I think that we w
G 17 '
d owe,as people here whoever we might represent, a letter to our
=
1 5
18 '
l representatives, the news media and whoever they might represent,
=
s 19 '
j a pitch as far as government aid for this company to clean up i
20 TMI.
I am not too concerned about what is happening -- I am concerned about i _, but I am damn concerned about the health and 22 welfare of the people, and if the govcrnment, as Mayor Reid said i
23 l and I believe -
you know, I once sat as a member of a governing 24 bcdy and you are damned if you do and damned if you den.' t, but 25l that is be~ide the point.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
57 I
I think that we. owe it to ourselves and to the people 2
who we represent to get the funding to Met Ed to get the damn 3
thing cleaned up now and not six years from now.
As the problem 4
here is discussed between 'these two gentlemen as f ar as ' that 5
j
. hydrogen' bubble, you know the potential again is concerning, and n
j 6l it.is a matter of just postponing this thing.
I think daat.we are R
7I all damn fools if we do'not get with it and suggest and apply 3
]
j 8
e presse:~e if necessary to get the funding for Met. Ed.or whoever is a
9 I going to do it or for the Federal government to step in and do
.z i
o I
H 10 j
it know, because we now know that it is more important and it is
=!. II more critical than what we thoucht it was before.
3 5
II CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Thank you, Dan.
3 13li If you would consider doing that, I would appreciate I
14 l hearing your viewpoints.
kj 15 d Is there anyone else in the audience who would care to g
16 l f
l address that issue at the next meeting, I would be interested in s
c j7 3
hearing that.
F
}
18 Does the panel have anything specific that they want "g 19 l'to discuss?
20 MR. TRAVERS:
Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Yes.
22 MR. TRAVERS :
Before you adjourn. tonight, you nave 23 i already mentioned the successful completion of the second and t.
24 i
=
t' l
third. stage Epicore waste.
Dr. Schneider could not be here this 25 '
l'
!.evaning, and I think that his sentiments are reflected by the i
1 4
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
-. ~. _,.
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58 l 1
i, Commissioners as well.
They have asked me to express their l
2' gratitute for what they consider a primary impetus on the part.iof 3
the panel.
I just thought that I would take this opportunity to 4r give it at this time.
I 5I CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Fine.
e 3
l' n
]
6l Don't anyone beat their way to the door, because I am C
i 7
not quite ready to adjourn.
A j
8; Do any of the panel members have anything Apecifically d
2 9
that they would care to discuss ; if not, I will reopen the mike z,
h 10 to the floor and hear what you all have to say.
z=
i j
11 Go ahead, A1.
-a
(
12 l; MR. MA?IIK :
Al Manik, Middletown.
5 i
[
13 !
I am not an expert on this one,. but I have a question.
m i
g 14 l In one of the local newspapers, hydrogen was found, a small enount
'A U
15 l C
i I presume, hydrogen in a containar,and this came from the Paxton 5
i i
j 16 Herald.
This disturbs me, the fact that I do not know anything A
d 17, about it.
I do know where it originated, how it originated, but
$ -18 ' I would like somebody to clear this up whether there was or was E
l h
19 ! not any hydrogen. It was found in one of the containers, that they n
l 20 had to be careful with retooling.
21 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
In the storage containers?
I 22 MR. MANIK:
Yes.
23 MR. MANIK:
I do not know anything about it, and this is 24 l what I am asking.
l 25 MR. HOVEY:
One of the potential problems identified at I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
59 1,
the time we were preparing to ship the Epicore pre-filter to 1
2' Bete 11e Columbus Laboratories.was the possibility of hydrugen 3l inside the liner.
We know that hydrogen is generated inside 4
those liners from the decomposition of the resins.
It is a known s
5j phenomena, and there is also some moisture in there.
As a S
l j
6!
precaution to make sure, since nobody could definitively say that R
7 there was or was not, we did vent those containers prior to aj 8
shipment.
O i
9 On some portable analysis that we had, yes, we did 3
10 l detect that there was some hydrogen.
We were not able to quan tify z
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11j it, and we were not set up to do that.
Subsequently, at Battelle 8
l 12 !
Columbus,they did quantify a measurement, and what that showed in E
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13 the particular sample that they took was a twelve percent a
M i
5 14 l hydrogen mixture, and also I believe that there were some other E
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15 hyrdocarbons in there, but a very low percentage, about.6.
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16 percent of oxygen.
A I7 That is what would be expected to be typical of other E
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18 !
pre-filters.
What we had thought, and we still believe may be the G
i 39 !
case in some of them, is that hydrogen being a very light gas, it g
n 20l leaks past threaded fittings and is dissipated.
So that is the i
~
2Il story.
It is a potential problem, and we are looking at installing i
22 l venting mechanisma on the pre-filters, and we will be telling in i
23l detail to the NRC in the not too distant future exactly what our 24 l plans are in that regard.
25 They are being developed now.
We de not view it as a t
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
w-
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60 4
I. near-term threat.
We have had hydrogen experts in to look at it.
I i
2' They do not view it as a near-term threat.
Yes, you have to be 3
careful with it.
The total amount of energy there in any given 4
liner is not that great.
We cannot view a credible detonation 5
mechanism, first of all, and should a liner for some reason --
i 8
l 3
s; w.
i should there be a detonation of it, it would not result in R*E 7
anything significant, and frankly, we do not think that it is 0
goint to happen, and we do have plans to vent them..
d l
9f
~
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Gale, is this at eye level?
z 10l L
MR. HOVEY:
The one that we found this in was one the z
5 Il pre-filters, the high specific activity liner.
3 N
I2 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Is there anyone else; come to the 3,
i h-13 '
mike, please, and again identify yourself.
I4ll x
5 MR. SMITH:
I mn{uviy Sm.Sh from Hershey.
G0 15 l
b What I do not quite uhderstand, you say that you can
=
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f 16 l maintaino this balance with the hydrogen.
'7,
l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
You are probably talking about the
=
18 l reactor now.
P t
19 3
MR. SMITH:
It seems to me that your cooling system n
i 20;' cannot be working at peak efficiency, there is no way.
So each 21lI time that that thing breaks down, a little bit more and a little I
22 l bit more, each time those atoms break apart and break apart, the 23 '!
temperature has to be getting higher and higher, so each paasing j
24 !
day it is going to have to take more and more hydrogen to keep l
that stable, to keep creating the water.
i t
i i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
61 1'
MR. BARRETT:
It reaches equilibrium, the natural l
2 equilibrium inside, and it stays at temperatures around 120 3
degrees, and the cooling mechanism is that the heat goes to the 4
atmosphere inside the building. The amount of heat generated is e
5 about the same,_ about 40 or 50 toaster ovens or something like 9
f 6l that.
It is very small, that is che bottom line, for the reactor.
R i
- 5 7
MR. SMITH:
How is that heat getting out?
A k
8 j
MR. BARRETT:
It is getting out through the pipes.
The d
i y
9l building air is like -- well, now is summertime, it is probably 3
10 like 75 degrees, 80 degress, and the water temperature is like 3
II 120 degrees and the heat is lost to the air.
It is like a hot a
j 12 l water pipe in your house.
The heat.s lost out of the hot water 5
1 I3 '
5 pipe to the air.
n I4 MR. SMITH:
Heat is a radiation; so if one kind of.
C i
1 15 g
radiation is getting out to the air, all others must be, too.
=
E I0 MR. BARRETT:
No, nuclear radiation is attenuated by 1
A I7 the water.
That is where the heat originally came ficm.
It is E
i 3
18
! the radiation which is heating up the water.
The water shields
=
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i I9 l the radiation.
It is under many feet of water.
That is what is a
6 l
20 in the reactor vessel.
There are many feet of waterraround the
~
21 core. Radiation is noc coming out of the core.
22 MR. SMITH:
There is no potential risk, this thing is 23 not just building up on itself, that that could not happen?
24 MR. BARRETT:
That is correct.
25l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Yes, please.
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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.~. -.-
62.
1
'I -
MR. CHARLES:
My name is Ed Charles and I am from 2
Mechanicsburg, and I brought this up to John Wayback.
1 3l What is the status of the evacuation plans?
We have 4
haard that they had a very successful test and about forty percent i
j 5l of the area was not involved in the test at all being in York g
9 f
6l County.
Since we do have two Mayors here and a Commissioner, I
- t 7
wonder what their feeling is or what their view of the status s
j 8
of evacuating schools in their own communities is; etcetera.
How d
9 1 e
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j d3d they view it?
I could not get the William Penn FEMA -
zo 10 '
"'j j
critique.
Nobody seemed to have any summary of the evacuation.
E u$ II l I would like maybe some comments as to how you view it.
i j.
12 We are talking about this waste, but can we evacuate n
i 13 now or can' t' we?
m E l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
I believe, first of all Ed, that
'=
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b there are copies of that critique available somewhere.
m
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3-16 '
MR. CHARLES:
I contacted FEMA andryour office, ahd A
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nothing came.
1 E
18 l w
MR'. GERUSKY :.
How long ago?
l 19 '
.,8 MR. CHARLES:
One day after the critique.
20 MR'. GERUSKY:
We just got the critique in about a week I
~
ago.
22 MR. CHARLES:
It iaay be in the mail.
23 ;!
MR. GERUSKY:
'n a scale of five, from what I gather 24 !
at the hearings yesterday and today, we recei'ed a four.
I do 5
not know what that means and they do not know what that means r
l ALDERSON RZPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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either.
2 MR. CHARLES :
I am asking you.
3 MR. GERUSKY:
It das a good exercise.
The York County' 4
exercise is going to take place in late July or early August on a e
5 -
Saturday.
There will be funding available to some of the workers,
5 0'l who have to come in on that Sarurday in York County.
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MR. CHARLES:
As to your agency, what do you rate it?
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Our agency, I think that we handled it
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All we did was make recommendations. We handled the 3
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information flow from the. reactor, and evaluated that flow with
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It was not a real emergency drill because O
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So without them being very involved, it worked very 23 '
well.
24 i (General laughter) 25 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Do you mean that the way that you l
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say it?
2 l MR.'GERUSKY:
The scenario was good, it was very 3
complicated.
We were on pins and needles trying to decide when' l
4 and if evacuation should occur.
We knew that it was going to j
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that it was going to happen on a certain date and we better be d
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recommendation.
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I was at our offices in direc't
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but apparently, it went pretty well there, also.
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some problems.
We do not have emergency workers available to us c
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us yet or certain individuals in the public whom we are supposed M
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There are some problems at the Federal 21 ll level.
Evacuation, they think that it can take place, and take 12 I
place reasonably well within a six to eight hour timeframe.
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t 23 l MR. CHARLES:
Could I ask the Mayor of Middletown what i
24 his view is; did you go or not?
r 25; MR. REID:
We took part in the exercise that we. had last I
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last year, and as far as th? administrative end of it, we got.an 2
excellent rating.
I was asked a question about the test this 3
year, and it is true that the administrative end of it might go 4,
great such as a four out of a possible five, but my concern is 5l with the people, do they know what to do.
Last year, I tried to e
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I had three hundred volunteers vSo i
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wanted to get involved, and we were going to move those three sl 8l hundred people by automcbile and have different kinds of problems d
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moving these people and have wrecked automobiles simulated.
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13 i have.
It is true, the administrative end of it goes great.
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I think
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constantly about evacuation.
I werk every night on evacuation i
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I think that I know what to do, but s
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I think that that is what we should have, and I E
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sit down and find out what the problems are, and try and work out a
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those problems before something happens.
21 We hcpe that nothing ever happens, but I would like to 22 have these problems worked out before anything, if anything, 23 '
should happen.
I think that the Federal government should come 24 l in and assist, sit down and talk about the problems, critique i
25 '
the whole thing af ter it is finished, and come up with a l
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aolution.
If they can spend $500,000 testing the sex life of a l
2l tse-tse fly, then I think that they should invest afew pennies 3lj in some community in this area to carry out a mock evacuation, 4
working with the people and getting their reactions.
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M2 CHARLES:
Do you feel that this might be something 0
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for your agenda that people who have these concerns -- I have yet G
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It is hard cE A
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Do I go with my classroom, i
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It does deal with the cleanup, because we have to be y
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able to go, the danger is there.
We have trucks going en route I
17 with 60,000 curies in it.
I do not know what a response time is f
IO l for a radiaological -- I do not even know if the county has a 9"
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team.
I know that Steve Reese said that he was working on it, g
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Before the Pennsylvania for TMI is i
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22 approved officially, there must be a public hearing by FEMA, done i
23 by FEMA in the area.
That is going to have to take place in '.the 24 next few months.
i MR. CHARLES:
Will there be a public notice?
25 1
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,67 II MR. GERUSKY1 It is a public hearing with public input.
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I do not know if it has been done in any other state yet.
It 3
should have been, but I do not know if it.has been.
4 MR. CHARLES:
South Carolia had a REACT team.
i 5l MR. GERUSKY:
So did we.
I am on 24 hour2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> call, and so g
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6l 1s all of my staff.
We are out on any emergency involving E
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radiation no matter where it is intthe state.
What we werc
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talking about was a plan for TMI which must be approved. They d
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Substances Transportation law being in existence in Pennsylvania E
was an explosion of a dynamite truck in eastern Pennsylvania in
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all kinds of transportation.
22lt CHAIRMM MINNICH:
Mayor.
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MR. REID:
Mr. Chairman, I think that this is an 24 important subject, but I question whether or not be fore this 25 committee.
Somebody already mentioned tonight that we have not l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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I done enough or we have not looked into things enough already.
2 I do not necessarily agree with that comment, but we do have a 3
charge that has been put forward to us by the NRC, and it seems.
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to me that our :harge is not to look at evacuation, that someone 5
j else has significant responsibility in that area.
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It is the-first requirement of any plan.
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If I may finish, you had an ample opportunity j
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We have a charge I. think basically to try d
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speed wise and comment on that.
I do not honesty.see, even though
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I consider it important and we have people involved in that, but 3
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All right.
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Don Roach of United Steel Workers Local.
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I would like to ask again about this worker safety c
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business.
I am not of the opinion 1that'the rods of plague are 1
i 20 I going to cure plague since they have brought us this plague. Out 21 of sheer practical necessity, I do not trust their assessment of 22 l the amount of radiation that their workers got, particularly at i
23 '
the early point in the accident.
Now, they may indeed be correct, 24 but I would like -- this gentlemen here told me that it was 25 private knowledge.
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It is not fair that they should be screaming to the 2
public and to Congress to bail them out while protecting whatever 3
information that they have learned about radioactivity to workers.
4 CRAIRMAN MINNICH:
Let me correct something, please,
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dead center on this issue.
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It is a question of coming in here and t
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So let us drop that
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MR. ROACH:
Accepting all of that, what I am interested E
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March 28th incident that workers went in there and got over 3n 20 certain levels of radiation, and at that time they did not have 21 proper equipment, that they used clothing that had not been 22 cleaned out properly.
It is not done now, but I would like to i
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know who else besides Met Ed --
24 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Excuse me, can someone address that.
25 i
I am not aware of that.
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1 MR. GERUSKY:
Can I as a question?
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2 CI; AIRMAN MINNICH:
Yes.
3 MR. GERUSKY:
I think that it might be important..
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do not know of a document, there may be one,.but I have not seen' I
5i one which has evaluated the exposures to the workers up to this e
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I wonder if GPU or NRC, A
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to individuals working on the site during the early stages of the 4
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Is that possible, Lake?
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Yes.
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It gets around, but is all over the A
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I just think that there should be more i
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What I was talking about was the 23 !
individual personal right to privacy, not the information on 24 exposures.to an unnamed individual.
There is information 25 available which is what I am asking for on individual A, B, C.
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
But you wanted names?
2 MR. ROACH:
Not necessarily;.no, I want verification cd l
3 the facts so that say, twenty years down the road if this person i
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Originally, you did ask for names, R*S 7
you asked for workers' names.
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But maybe I did not fully understand what I d
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Also there were an awful lot of people m
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received exposures during the accident on which information is m
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It is from all over the country, people 5
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who came in to work on the accident at the request of various l
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in ormation.
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helpful.
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May I just mention though that in saying 22 l that individuals do not count, that is npt my belief, but that is 23 what I get.
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MR. GERUSKY:
I did not say that.
25 i
MR. ROACH:
But the fact that I cannot get any i
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1 informa tion.
2 MR. GERUSKY:
I said that you cannot get the names of 3
inviduals unless they want you to have those names.
That is their i
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m' 51 MR. ROACH:
I understand.
6 i
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Do you understand that we spent two and an R
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I understand, but I just do not think that
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23 there has been enough publicity being given to worker exposure.
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I do not know whether there is enough i
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But nobody has the figures of worker I
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That is how much publicity that you have given to it.
C I9 l MR. MORRIS:
There are many figures available for worker 4
l 20 exposure.
It is a matter of what it is you are lookina for.
21 MR. ROACH:
Twenty years down the road we will use them, i
22 !
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Lake and Gale, is that possible to I
23 l s
comply with, his request for the next meeing?
24 MR. HOVEY:
Yes.
l 25 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
All right.
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Yes, Ma'am.
2 MS. ROTH:
My name is Terry Roth and I am from 3
Harrisburg.
I 4i Mr. Minnich, I think that I share your concern that the i
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people of this area be bailed out, but I am somewhat confused.
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Why are we not talking about the z.
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We have bankruptcy laws which cover this 3
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16 l (Applause)
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Terry, I am not trying to be 18,
facetious, but if you had the money, if you were a pe: son who was C
9 I9 2
interest?d in investments and you had the money to do
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i 20 l Met Ed went bankrupt, would you buy that unit down there?
21ll MS. ROTH:
No, certainly noc.
I 22 !
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
All righc, so my point is what would 23l we gain by forcing Met Ed into bankruptcy, and then,we have a 24 polarization.
They are bankrupt anc they are out, and the Feds t
25 has said. that is their problem, it is not our problem, and you i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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do not have a buyer, and there it site.
Now, who wins?
I 2
MS. ROTH:
I think that you have a good point, but I 31 think that your point' suggests that there are a lot of questions i
4 that have not been answered.
I know a little bit about bankruptcy 3
5, law and I know that you appoint a receiver who;comes in and R
6f administers.
Nobody would want to touch.this, I think that you R
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Do we not for example need further research of the d
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That is an option as far as I can zc i
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If you recall, I asked two people
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I appreciate that, but what I am saying is
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for anyone else in this room --
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
But again, you have to remember, as 5
4 20 che Mayor poir+.ed out to the other gentlemen, that is not our I
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Our charge is to get the place cleaned up.
Bankruptcy, j
i 22 whether they go bankrupt or whatever, that is not our charge, 23 '
althougheit is a concern.
24 l MS. ROTH:
And the question of who pays for that 25 cleanup is a part of your charge, I assume.
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I CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
I suppose that you cocid make a case l
2 for it, yes.
3I MS. ROTH:
All that I am suggesting then is that 4;
alternative be one that is considered along with the other i
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alternatives, and that some further work be done by people with g
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real experience in the area as to what the alternatives are, I
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All right.
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MR. TRAVERS :
Mr. Chairman.
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Yes.
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II MR. TRAVERS :
There is a rather large report which 3
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13 5
Finances Branch of the NRC, and I would be happy to send it to
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It investigates a whole slew of arguments, what ifs.
Ej 15 ll CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
I think that I have read that, as
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Could we get a ruling from the NRC e
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concerning wi.at is our charge. Are we supposed to be involved in 9
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that, because if we are, fine, but I would like to know that so
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I think that we need direction on that, and 21 I think that we also need direction on the question that was asked 22 here on evacuation.
I do not think that it is, but I would hate 23,
to place this panel in that position.
I think that we have to 24,
have some kind of direction.
25,
CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
If I can hopefully express this to l
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May I make one suggestion?
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Yes.
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I2 MR. SMITHGALL:
Maybe that document, that charge of s
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Maybe aj 14 !
it is like what Mayor Morris said. I heard a question asked here b
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as to whether or not the financial liability was important, x
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I9 important,1f we are going to have a liasion here.
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I was saying maybe yes, but I do not 21 l 1
know.
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MR. SMITHGALL:
Are you saying that there is no i
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document stating your charge?
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
No, we are asking NRC to give us 25 '
that.
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MR. TRAVERS:
As a matter of fact, there is and it is 2l a public document and is on file.
It is a rather broad statement 3
and I.think that it puts the areas which the panel woul.d like to 4
get into pretty much in their own hands as it relates to the 5
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Maybe what I am asking is that it mighu R
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Would you.like me to bring up some copies d
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I think that that is an excellent idea.
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Maybe we can discuss it at the next meeting 3
fI as to what we are going to get into and what we are not.
If 9
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evacuation is something that we should decide, what time; and I4 l if cost is something that we should decide what time.
I_think
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That is a good point.
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When do we want to meet again; August is usually a bad I
21 i month, but I will defer to the panel if you want to set a date in 22 August.
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MR. ROTE:
It seems to me that it would be a good idca 24 if we could set a schedule; perhaps, every four to six weeks, so i
25 that not only we would know, but the public would know, NRC would l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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I know, the utility would know.
2l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
.I would like to do that, Joel, but 3
unfortunately, I am involved in more than just here, md I regret 4
that.
There are groups and citizens /ho expect me to be here, 3
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there and everywhere, and I try to accomodate them.
It is a
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6l literally impossible for me to schedule a so. ries of four or five N
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meetings with assurance that that is going to fit.
E s
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8j MR. ROTH:
I certainly understand that, and I would e
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9j, also perhaps at this time say that we do not have a vice chair
?
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10 l who may be able to help on this who could chair in your place.
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i II The burden has fallen on you, probably 99.9 percent which a
f I2 probably is not fair.
Perhaps we should deal with it ourselves i
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j 13 that way by having that, so we could be able to continue and e
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I4 I satisfy all.
h.
j 15 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Yes, Ma'am.
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d I6 MS. CLEMENT:
I am Marge Clement from Lemoyne.
'^
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C 17 l In the government's statement today, one of the things 5
IOllthat he sais was "I believe the tine has ccme for the catalys t of H
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19 l public opinion to work its will on all of the relevant parties."
n 20 I look on the chief executive of our state as a relevant party 21 l and I invite everybody to come to the Governor's mansion af ter l
22 this meeting.
23 '
/ Applause) 24 l CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Is that for dinner?
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i 25 MS. CLEMENT:
Whatever.
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i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
79
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1 CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
Is.there any specific date or dates 2
in-mind.
We will entertain that and deal with the vice chairman 3
at the next meeting.
I think that perhaps that that is the way 4
to go.
5
'(Discussion off the record)
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CHAIRMAN MINNICH:
August 27th, that is.a Thursday.
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7 I would suggest that we consider York.
I think in keeping with s
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S what we started, I would like to nvid a meeting in York.
In
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9 that case, we we.ld not know where.
The NRC would attempt to z.oy 10 make arrangcments someplace in York and then disseminate that i!!
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information.
August 27th, it will be 7:00 with location to be B
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I2 announced.
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g 13 (Whereupon, at 9 : 23 p.m., the meeting was adjourned. )
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22 23 l 24 25 I
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
NUCLEAR REGULATORY CO.$dMISSION Ihis is to certify that :he attached proceedings before the in the matter of:
Meeting of Advisory Panel for the Decontinamination of TMI 2 Date of ?. cceedi ts :
July 9, 1981 Docket Nu=ber:
r.rrisburg, Pennsylvania c
21 ace o.#
r' " a c a.a.d.4 g
.e were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Coccission.
Rossie 3utton Official Reporter (Typed)
Y,0lbb Official Reporter (Signature) o e
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