ML20004D409
| ML20004D409 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 06/05/1981 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8106090361 | |
| Download: ML20004D409 (36) | |
Text
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1 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLE.'R REGULATORY CONHISSION j
r 3
4
. JOINT EEETING OF COHNISSION AND 5
ADVISORY COENITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 6
F Nuclear Regulatory Commission Room 1046 8
1717 H Street, N.W.
i Washington, D. C.
9 Friday, June 5, 1981 10 The Committee and the Comalr.sion. net, pursuant to 11 notice, at 3:04 p.m.
l 12 PRESENT:
13 JOSEPH N. HENDRIE, Chairman of the Cosaission J. C. HARK, Chairman of the Consittew 14 P. SHEWHON N. PLESSET 15 C. P. SEISS D.'HOELLER 16
- 5. BENDER W. KERR 17 H. CARBON
- 5. E. NATHIS 18 D. WARD J. C. EBERSOLE 19 D. OKRENT H. LEWIS i
20 J. J. RAI 21 DESIGNATED FEDERAL EMPLOYEE 4 l
22 E. G. IGNE 23 24 25 t
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(3:04 a.m.)
3.
MR. MARK 4 Good afternoon, sir.
[
t 4
The meeting will come back to order.
5 Mr. Hendrie was good enough to come down and 6 expose himself to being beaten on for a while.
I am not i
i 7 sure it should be so bad.
8 There have been some topics noted by Ray Fraley 9 that come up.
We hope they might be discussed with the 10 Commissioners.
And I think that the first of those has to 11 do with PPPG, progras planning guidance.
I do not know what 12 the first "P" is for -
" policy."
l 13 David, you called our attention to he ites.
14 HR. OKRENTa Okay.
Well, if I may, what I would 15 like to do is to use the PPPG to introduce a broader 16 question which actually arises all too f requently.
It was 17 mentioned, in f act, in a couple of the recen't committee 18 letters.
19 In the PPPG there was a note about that there i
20 might be a need for the staff to defer or drop some of our 21 programs because of resources.
So the question is resources 7
22 and how do we allocate them?
23 The thing that arose in the recent committee 24 letters with relation to this were generic items.
And, of l
25 course, when you talk about resources, there is also the I
I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) SS4 2346
3 1 question of how do you get at possible things like basic 2 requirements for future 1 hrs and how do you get enough 3 resources for rulemaking and still accesplishing licensing 4 without impacting thin gs.
5 I guess, in fact, I for one would be interested in 8 hearing, Joe, what you think are the possibilities with 7 regard to resources, whether there is any opportunity for i
8 what some of the people on the West Coast talk about when 9' they are talking about buying homes.
10 (Laughter.)
11 CHAIHERN HEKDHIES Narbe we could introduce 12 something to appropriations about that.
13 (laughter.)
14 Besources are a problem now, as they have always 15 been, perhaps as acutely now as at any tLae in the past.
to the mandate that Harold has in NHH, which is not all of the 17 area of interest. to the cosaittee but is a central chunk of 18 it, certain17, is to sind the operating reactors, to move 19 the case work, and try to avoid downstream licensing delays 20 on completed plants, to maintain the pace on the unresolved 21 safety issues and on the priority-one items identified in 22 the THI action plan, and as necessary then to slack back on 23 lower priority in generic matters and lower priority action 24 plan items.
25 He have a mandate in the '81 supplemental ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
4 1 appropriations and recision bill which is now, for all 2 intents and purposes, final.
The bill as it ' ends up will
(
3 cLtp us nonething, I guess, on the order of $8 million in 4 funding level, proposing a direct recision of $5 million in 5 the agency budget, together with not appropriating any 6 additional funds for the federal pay raise, which have been 7 variously estimated as being as auch as $4.5 million in 8 '81.
I think it will probably turn out to be more like 3.
9 So that cuts us back about 8 for the rest of the 10 fiscal year. The funding level, or the personnel ceiling, it is set at 3300, which is down 36 siots from the previous 12 expectation. And we are further sandated to move an 13 additional 25 positions into the licensing branch.
14 I think that the dollar side will cramp us a 15 little bit, but not f atally. The loss of positions from the 16 agency total means that we will have to do yet one more 17 shuffling of the slot allotments between th e sections and in 18 the licsnsing-piece of NBB.
They will require 25 acre than 19 they perhaps might. have otherwise.
That remains to be 20 worked out in detail.
21 There has always been a lot of things that the 22 staff night want to do or that the Commissioners might want 23 the staff to do for which resources hkve been hard to come
(
24 by, and that just is going to continue to be true.
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25 I think, by and large, we have been relatively 1
l ALOERSoM REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2348
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5 1 well treated by both the administration and the Congress in 2 the sense that I see some other agencies whose positions in 3 this: regard is pretty important, have been really hacked up 4 pretty badly.
So though we.. ave some. cuts here, it is not 5 really -- they are relatively small on the scale of these 8 things.
7 I do not think there are any -- I do not have any 8 very profound thoughts to offer on resources.
What gets 9 done and what gets set aside is a matter of, and always will 10 be, I guess, a satter of considerable argument, differences 11 in point of view among. the offices of the staff, the 12 Commissioners, within the consitt- - itself, I suspect, in 13 regard to a committee view versus staff and Commissioner 14 views.
15 Out of that thrashing around, we eventually have 18 to come to an apportionment of rJsources that in some 17 overall way tries to select the higher priority things and 18 try to gat them done.
In evitably, the lower priority ones 19 are just going to slip down the line.-
So that means with 20 regard to any particular proposition -- for instance, trying 2t to uketch out some clearer bases for new reactor designs in l
22 the future -- whether that gets to be an immediately worked 23 Ou proposition or not depends on the outcome of the assorted 24 arguments and discussions.
25 Ultimately, the. major policy sorts of decision l
ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l
400 VIRGINtA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l
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1 efforts in terms of budget review, we get down to haggling 2 whether one more person should go to the of fice of general 3 counsel or to Denton or whatever.
So I guess the Commission 4 gets down at-least once a year to the first-line detail and 5 three Commissioners.who see eye to eye on the point can make 6 it work.
7 (laughter.)
8 And that is. the ultimate decision point in the i
9 agency, unless, of course, we get a congressional mandate, f
to you know, legislation. that says, " Shut up and do this.* don't 11 do that."
If that is the case, why, more or less we do it.
12 ER. HARKa When you_sentioned the 25 additional 13 vara bodies in licensing aandated I guess by the FY '81 14 supplegantal --
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15 CHAIBRAN HENDRIEs Yes, this would be controlling 16 now for the period in which the '81 -- during fiscal year 17 '81.
18 ER. MARK:
I.was wondering how permanent a shift is that is.
There will be another pass at this.
There is l
i 20 another number written down, I suppose, for '82 which I did 21 not pay attention to.
22 CHAIBHAN HENDRIE:
I was trying to decide whether 23 I remembered the position in the '82 appropriations acts as 24 they are working their way forward, and I guess offhand I do 25 not resember enough to be able to say positively.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, 6.0. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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NB. HARKS I obviously had in mind --
2 CHAIENAN HENDRIEa I do not think the '82 3 appropriation act contains the same kind of language.
4 NR. HARKS The need for advancing licensing, which 5 is very obvious in many people's minds now, is going to 6 persist for some rather finite time, possibly a year, since 7 there are not things approaching the operating license very 8 far back in very large numbers.
I say, a year.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIEs Go ahead and make the point 10 that follows from that.
I do not agree with the premise, 11 but I might agree with the balance of the proposition.
12 ER. HARKS I months where I might be 12 or more.
13 25 assigned to licensing, however, will not necesarily be 14 appropriate af ter some time.
I was wondering whether one 15 gets in the spot where it becomes legally required or can we is retract from it when things change?
17 CHAIENAN HENDRIE:
Well, for the period of 18 applicability of the bill, which is just until October 1, 19 why, it operates with a f airly strong mandate.
One swiss 20 uphill against the laws of the United States at a certain 21 personal risk, having sworn to uphold it and so on.
22 (laughter.)
23 On the other hand, a cat may be skinned from an 24 almost infinite number of directions, and the committee, 25 after all, did not describe in detail the base from which i
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINtA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 e
8 1 the allotment of 25 positions is to be made.
So we still 2 have to see.
3 I tell you this is an initiative from the House 4 appropriations side, and they have been among the most vocal 5 of all our congressional.commenters on the face of 6 licensing.
And it has been their intent in thic bill to 7 speak rather harshly in the manner of a auleskinner who 8 vants to get the attention of the animal.
And so before he 9 gives it any directions, he kicks it in the ribs as hard as to he can.
And while the mule is looking to see what that was, 11 he gets instructed, you know.
i 12 And it seems to.ao we are beginning to come inte 13 pretty good shape on licensing.
Whether we keep it up is a 14 matter worth thinking about. There any be some heavy 6
15 problems, but.ve are beginning to move, and I think the to committee perceives that as the case.
So that Jf what at 17 ene acaent is their concern is satisfied, then they are not 18 going to give us this kind of detailed process and punishing 19 sorts of ~1anguage for the agency.
20 So I think anybe the '82 bill vill not have either 21 any,or at least.not this kind of language, and we will 22 s ee.
If we keep things moving, why, I think it will go 23 a wa y.
If it does not move, *:h y, they will Le back in with 24 acre of the same, I am quite sure.
25 If I have any luck the rest of this month with a ALDER 8oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
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l 1 couple of plants and manage to authorize the issuance of 2 those licenses, that will be four since the first of March, 3 and I will be able to exit fima office known as 4 "one-a-month-Hendrie."
5 (Laughter.)
6 "The great licenser."
That is not bad.
7 (laughter.)
8 That ought to take some pressure off., But I think 9 with regard to the 12 aonth problem, I think it is a 10 longer-ennge problem than that, because it is going to be a 11 fight for a couple of years to keep the staff reviews moving 12 at a pace that will allow reasonable times for hearings on 13 these OL plants, so that licensing decisions can be reached 14 by the time that plants are ready.
15 I think we are still going to have a probles a 16 couple of years from now, and I think we have not yet begs 1
17 to feel any lapact of the emergency planning rules.
I do 18 not know whether it will be a nador issue in every case, but 19 I think there may still be lots of problems for an extended 20 tia e.
21 NB, NARKS In the paper today it looked like you 22 were relieves c* such problems, passing full power licenses 23 while the hearings proceeded, it says.
24 CHAIBNAN HEEDRIE:
That is a provision which I 25 personally-have advocated, advocating 5 percent operating ALDER 8oN REPORTING COMPANY INC, 400 VIRONA AVE, S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
10 1 power before the license is granted.
That authority runs 2 out depending upon the version which you look at.
It runs 3 out either October 1,
'83, or the end of
'83.
It was meant, 4 oh, at least to cover the short-term projects.
5 It is possible it could be extended, but I would 6 not be surped5ed -- I kind of think it will not be.
I think 7 the agency will be expected to arrange its aff airs so as not 8 to need to exarcise that.
9 Furthermore, that does not relieve the problems of to the emergency plaaning rule.
The proposed legislation says 11 only that a unit which is completed and meets all of the 12 requirements of the law and the Commission's regulations and 13, s prevented from going into operation only by the fact that 1-4 a hearing continues to be in process or is scheduled, that 15 we can issue an interim license at full power.
16 Now, if there are emeraency planning issues that 17 are still not resolved, state plans that have not been 18 completed satisfactorily or what have you, why, then it does 19 not meet the conditions of the law for granting of a license.
20 ER. BENDERS Joe, this is a slight regression from 21 the exact subject.
But because you seem to be advocating 22 the one-stop licensing concept, I would like to hear your 23 view of what the timing is likely to be f ar granting a 24 license in view of the kind of things you just said, where 25 you have to deal with matters like havi:Jg the emergency plan ALDEASoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGNA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C,20024 (202) 564 2346
11 1 in place knowing that the operating contingent is ready to 2 operats.
3 What is it that you envision would be licensed at 4 the time on a one-stop licensing act?
5 CHAIRHAN HENDHIEa What do you mean by the s "one-stop licensino"?
7 ER. BENDER:
The concept of having one -- a 8 license dealt with in one action to construct and operate, 9 which I think. has been proposed.
Barbe I do not understand 10 the concept.
Is that not the concept?
11 CHAIR 5AN HE3 DRIES No.
12 ER. BENDERt What is the concept?
13 CHAIRHAN HENDRIEs Are you referring to the piece 14 of legislation that is working its way, hopefully, toward 15 adoption by the Congress?
16 ER. BENDEBs Yes.
17 CHAIREAN HENDRIEs That is solely a measure to 18 give the Commission authority for the next two years, to approximately, to issue an interis operating license.
20 ER. BENDERS.
No, I think I did not ask the 21 question right.
They are separate.
For a long time there 22 has been a campaign, as I understand it, f rom the DOE and 23 the Congress to just have one licensing action rather than 24 having an operating license and a construction license.
25 And I guess the. question I an asking is thisa If ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRONA AVE S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2346
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1 there are advocates of that Idea -- that is, granting --
2 having one licensing action -- when would such a license be 3 granted, and what would people envision might be covered?
4 Is that an unfair question to ask you?'
5 CHAIRHAN HENDRIEa It is a proposition which has 6 been proposed by an assortment of people in an assortment of 7 forums for an assortment of years, as a matter of fact.
He a had a provision like. that in the Commission-generated 9 licensing refora. legislation, legislative proposal, in
'77, 10 in early '78.
There was a similar proposal in the 11 administration's bill ef.the same time.
There were a' number 12 of hearings before the Congress.
13 Those initiatives had been around quite a while 14 bef ore then,
It comes up f ron. time to time.
A bill 15 proposed by a member of Congress or proposals made by 16 somebody, and it can certainly take a variety of forms.
17 But the basic proposition would be to ask that 1a when a new project first comes into the house, that there be i
is a sufficient level of completion in the design so that what j
po could be reviewed by the staff and dealt with in a hearing 21 would be a safety analysis which was a pretty good 22 approrisation to being a final safety analysis.
23 Now, at that kind of stage you c-e not going to 24 know a number of things that you normally know when the 25 plant is at the OL stage.
So you are going to have to deal ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGtNIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346 l
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1 with things like the capacity of the safety-related pumps in 2 teras of acceptable operating ranges rather than at a 3 guaranteed performance curyn from a pump vendor.
And that 4 vill complicate the review and analysis process.
5 and there say be some areas which you have to deal 6 with the analysis f rom a licensing -- f rom a permission 7 standpoint and a licensibility standpoint by setting some 8 requirements which the r.pplicant commits to meet.
And if 9 that can be done, then what the applicant receives at that to initial stage and time corresponding roughly to the 11 construction permit time now, except he would have to have 12 it substantially more complete, would be a combined 13 construction persit and operating license.
And what it 14 would say is that when you get it built we are going to look 15 at it and see if you have built it the way we acreed here is and examine any deviations or any new propositions in hand 17 and, barring very substantive matters on those, ce find 18 everything is al'1 right, then you get an operating license.
19 Then you get the plant built.
20 Inevitably, there will be some things that work 21 out differently for one reason or another, and there very 22 voll could be a further hearing at that stage.
But there 23 would be a rather high threshold for formal hearing 24 someplace where the guideline, for instance, is that he 25 staply had to go and approach a safety probles quite l
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2346
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14 1 differently than he had at the initial stage.
2 And what you would hope is that in the majority of 3 cases there would not be contentions about the plant which 4 votid reach that threshold for formal hearing.
5 Then the operating license stage consists of an 8 examination of the staff of is it built according to the 7 safety analysis we' vent through back then, and check off all 8 the other requirements, the rags, everything else, and in 9 the case a finding 3 the staff that it meets the 10 requirements of the initial document, then you could start 11 operation.
12 The Commission will discuss that decision or not 13 with the staff, depending upon the information it has at 14 that. tiae.
15 E3. EBERSOLE:
Because the regulatory guides are 18 sometimes so ambiguous, there comes a point in. time when you 17 have to make interpretations as to what they mean.
That 18 process suggests to me a greatly improved degree of 19 cosaunication between the regulator and the designer.
A n d 1~
20 have no problem with that, although I know a lot of people 21 think that if you get that close to the design, you become 22 embroiled and that it becomes part of your own process.
23 I do not see any real probles there, and I see a 24 great deal to be had.
In f ollo wing the design evoluation a 25 great deal more tightly than we do now.
What do you think r
t ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 2Z24 (202) 564-2346
15 1 about that?
The English do it.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE It is more of a problem for us j
3 than it is for the English, because the regulatory systems 4 are substantially different in terms of the postures that 5 the various parties have with regard to one another.
6 It probably v.ould be a desirable proposition for 7 us to be able to keep track of the evolution of the designs 8 better than we do in that period between the CP and tha OL, 9 when he is pretty well free to go ahead and get it built, 10 then we will see what he Erz got.
11 BT the time any such proposition a.s those we talk 12 about nos could become. operative, I suspect it would be 13 pretty well over the current crunch on getting the operating 14 ' license process moving reasonably well, and we could fery 15 voll have sufficient staff to do that.
16 In the pa gt pre-THI, why, that was not normally 17 the case.
Ther'e simply were not staff available to keep an 18 eye cn it.
When you finally got the CP, you know, that was l
19 the end.
The people file the final safety analysis and then 20 we go to work on the OL stage.
21 But I suspect in a few years the problem would not 22 be so great, and there will be staff, and we probably would 23 vant to follow closely the progress.
So I think it is 24 feasible from a resource standpoint, feasible from a timing l
25 standpotnt as these other elements fall into place.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346 I
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He need legislation to authorize that kind of 2 procedure.
On the one hand, probably more significantly, we 3 need a financial sort of overall climate on the utility side 4 that makes a new plant possible, a new nuclear plant 5 possible.
8 NR. HARKS Dave, I am not sure that you aanaged to 7 get the ansvers that you. thought should have been available, 8 but you probably got the answer that is available.
9 ER. OKRENTs Well, I did not want to ask a 10 question acy more difficult than I did since -- well, Bill 17 Kerr has his hand up.
12 ER. XERRt I have begun to gradually realize only 13 recently that the NEC staff does not have a QA program.
In 14 the light or the importance attached to QA and reactor 15 saf ety, I guess I am puzzled a little, if I interpret the 18 ansvers to questions I. have raised correctly, that one does 17 not exist.
It seems to me it might have a salutary 18 influence.
19 CHAIBRAN HENDRIEs It is very hard to say negative 20 things about quality assurance.
I guess the only comment I 21 would make, looking at quality assurance as a general l
22 proposition in the nuclear field, is that I would be auch 23 happier if I were assured that the improvement in the 24 quality of the work that is finally uone and the operations 25 that are finally carried out was compatible with the volume ALDERSON P PORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
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17 1 of paper in assuring.what we call quality assurance.
2 ER. KERRa It just occurs to me that firsthand 3 experience with a progran might be a significant learning 4 process.
5 CHAIENAN HENDRIEs Well, I think probably that is 6 the case.
And indeed, from the standpoint of staff 7 P.ctivities, why, every once in a while we find out that what 8 we regard as the built-in quality assurance mechanisms --
9 internal review and higher-level oversight and so on -- if 10 they do not work, then questions about whether you might 11 vant to make a more formal organization alght come up.
I 12 suspect that 'is. something we will want to think about a long 13 time.
14 The fact that there are signed papers that say --
15 we have a great predilection in quality assurance activities 18 to regard production of pieces of paper as a thing that has 17 to be done.
It is not always clear to se that the results 18 are fully compatible with that.
19 HR. DARKS If there are no points generally 20 related to the topics -- I guess it was a topic -- obviously 2t people are interested, I as sure not merely here, on whether 22 the FY '81 supplemental appropriation, or misappropriation, 23 the 58 million you mentioned, where it is likely to impact.
24 Tou said you thought you could find the 58 million easily 25 one way or the other.
Well, those were not your exact l
A& DEA 8oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE.,3.W, WASHINGTON D.C.20024 (202) 554-2345 l
18 1 words.
But are there ways in which it is likely to impact 2 activities of the people here in the FY '817 3
CHAIBHAE HENDRIEs I see Bill Dircks has slipped 4 away.
I thought we would take a piece out of it out of your 5 travel budget.
e
( La ugh ter.)
7 ER. H2 bks We are looking at it.
8 NB. KERR4 We could all get to Washington.
9 CHAIHEAN HEEDRIEs Coulc you all do this by 10 conference. telephone?
11 ER. SIESS4 Continuously.
12 CHAIBEAN HENDRIEs I would not think it would 13 lapact the committee in a direct way until we sert out 14 exactly where we will squeeze it out and how.
Well, it is 15 pretty hard to say.
We do have some problems with travel 16 fund limitations that occasionally bind in terms of being 17 able to send as cany people to as many places as we would 18 like.
I do not think that will affect the couaittee.
It 19 does affect the staff.
The controller will search around 20 and find some research contract and put it off past the 21 first of Octobec and --
22 HR. HARKe We had thought perhaps you would just 23 take it out of.your entertainment funds.
24 (Laughter.)
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIEs Well, let's see, the I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHtNGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345
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1 entertainment fund, that is about --
2 ER. HARKS I remember the first form of the House i
3 appropriation bill.
4 CHAIBRAN HENDRIE4 Yes.
I cannot remember.
In 581, it v'ss $12,000 and '82 was going to be $3000 or whether 6 '81 was $3000 and '82 was going to be, you know, bigger.
It 7 does not make auch difference in a budgetary _ sense.
It is a f
8 minor inconvenience.
9 ER. HARKS Well, that will have to be worked over, 10 and I presume we will. hear as soon as anyone else if things 11 are going to affect us in a var that we need to adjust to.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIEs Yes.
13 ER. HARK 4 Our travel is already giving us not i
l 14 unease, but let us say we are going with a yellow light, I i
15 think.
l 4
16 CHAIRHAN HE1DRIEt Well, the agency's travel funds 17 have tightened up.
So I think the committee ought to, you 1a know, sort of travel with a yellow light, in the sense of 19 just. recognizing that travel funds that you use that could 20 reasonably have -- you could have reasonably avoided having l
21 expended are not going to be available for staff people and 22 consultants to go to plants, make inspections, and so on.
23 But I think the committee's operation, in. a dollar 24 sense, is not a large enough one so you are a very fruitful 25 source for retrieval of funds.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINtA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2348
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ER. LEVIS Have you done a cost-benefit analysis?
2 (laughter.)
3 CHAIRNAN HENDRIE:
Well, committee members 4 traveling write fewer memoranda than committee members who 5 are stationary either.here or other places.
So there is a 8 balance there.
In some ways we night be better off to give 7 you more travel funds and encourage-you to stay in motion a i
a greater fraction of the time.
9 (laughter.)
10 ER. OKBERTs You know, that is not necessarily a 11 good assumption.
4-1/2 hours from los Angeles to Washington 12 is just the right time to write a meno, a draft letter.
13 CHAIBRAN HENDRIES Well, maybe we could arrange a 14 new classa standing, standing at the back of the plane or 15 something like that.
16 (laughter.)
17 Spence used to say he could not write memoranda on 18 tho' plane unless. he traveled first class.
Well, we will 19 figure out something.
20 NR. HARKS Well, the people involved will meet the 21 needs.
You probably knew John Archibold Wheeler.
He could 22 write a memorandum sitting in the old Los Angeles Airport.
23 HR! IEWISa He was a phenomenon.
He could also i
24 say, "I now have seven minutes.
I believe I will sleep."
25 And then he would sleep for seven minutes and then get up i
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2
( Laugh te r. )
3 HR. HARKS I think this third itea is perhaps not i
4 really a question, because unfortunately we probably know 5 the answer.
But we ought to bring it to your attention.
i 6
We, as you will recall, requested the staff be 7 strengthened for the coming year by about ten more bodies.
8 And that was not really just a round number picked out of 9 the air.
It was. the result of an attempt on our part, I to think, a much as anyone, to correlate the number of things 11 they saw coming and the number of people who would be needed 12 to handle them.
I 13 TheT have gone through that exercise again, and 14 they have modified it.
They figured out that about 8-1/2 15 might possibly handle the revised spectrum of stuff for '82, 18 as they see it coming.
17 I think the ORB went forward with three under the 18 previous administration.
And the present administration is 19 one, unless the '82 budget, which has not quite settled 20 cawn, changes.
It is not that certain.
21 I do not ask that you give it to us here and now, 22 but there is probably going to be a need to say to the 23 committee, "We wish you would" -- well, a little phrase like 24 in the PPPG, what do you need for future attention and wha t 25 do you intend *o do between now and ther.?
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1 As I say, you probably cannot answer that.
We do 2 not even know to what extent the problem -- what measure the 3 problem is factored in.
But there is a problem, and it is 4 not just a slight one where you could work Saturday 5 afternoon and brings. things back.
6 CHAIBHAN.HENDRIEa There is and will continue to 7 he a people crunch, a people pinch, as we shuffle and see 8 where thesa 3300 are to be apportioned.
I think that is 9 also the '82 number.
10 MH. HARKS Yes.
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COLHISSIONER HENDRIEa No growth is contemplated.
2 In fact, it cuts back 36.
So I -- when you get to talk to a 3 new set oV Consissioners about it directly, I think ther 4 will find it.very difficult to make auch of an addition to 5 staff, and I think we will have to look at the things you do 8 auch in the way the staff has had to look and decide that 7 these are thing? they really have to do, and here are some 8 things that we ought to do. but they are going to have to be 9 set back.
10 I think that is a reasonable subject for 11 discussion between the Consittee and the Commission, and I 12 would think the Commission would not want to mandate to you 13 sort of a progression of priorities without substantial 14 recommendations -- input from the Committee.
I certainly am 15 not going to suggest to you what you ought not do.
O th er 18 people will. have to deal with that problem.
It certainly 17 deserves more discussion.
18 ER. HARKS This is something that will probably 19 have to be given a little attention.
20 ER. SIESS:
I would like to mention that the 21 no-growth point really does not apply to our duties, because 22 our duties have been growing by leaps and bounds, things the 23 Commission has requested us to do or the Congress has 24 requested us to do.
We are not doing too many things that 25 somebody does not ask us to do.
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We are doing a lot more things than we did when 2 all we did was reviewing cases.
And now we are getting five r
3 cases coming in in-one month, maybe.
So the growth is there 4 and the Committee is not any bigger.
5 COREISSIONER HENDRIEs That is a characteristic of 6 the staff's problem.
And I think the Committee on balance 7 is as well suited as anJbody hereabouts to look at the 8 things it does, it can do, and make some recommendations.
9 If it gets cut back, you have to do things which are of 10 higher priority.
11 The Commission will be apt, I will gratuitously r
12 point out to you, he apt to act towards you in precisely the 13 var the Committee on occasion acts toward the staff.
That 14 is, the Committee says, gee, we have more than we can do and 1
15 we've got to cut back, and guess what, the Commission chucks 18 a couple of more things your way they not only had not heard 17 but they did not believe you.
I 18 (Laughter.)
l to-The point of view is, over on those chairs, with 20 regard to --
21 ER. SIESSs I do not know how well it would be 22 received if we asked the Commissioners not to write us so 23 many letters asking questions and asked the Congressmen to l
l 24 do the same.
25 COH5ISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, it seems to ao that ALDER 8oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 to the extent that you are taking up chores at une request I
2 of Commissioners.or Congressmen which in the collective view 3 of the Connittee detract from its ability to perform its 4 fundamental and statutory purpose, you not only have a clear 5 right in my opinion, but a responsibility to write back and 6 saya look, chum, we are here under the provisions of the 7 Atomic Energy Act to do the following, and if we keep 8 answering your dann fool letters we're not going to be able 9 to do it.
10 (laughter.)
11 Now, you know in subsequent draf ts you might 12 modify the language -
13 (laughter.)
14 But you know, it setas to me that.that is not an 15 unreasonable proposition at all.
I 16 HR. EBERS01Es It suggests a great standard 17 letter.
18 (laughter.),
19 COERISSIONER HENDRIEt Because I notice an 20 increasing inclination for the Committee to be addressed 21 directly by all manner of folk from far and near.
And you 22 know, I think you have a perfectly reasonable basis to say i
23 you are not constituted to be correspondent with anybody 24 with an 18 cent stamp and an envelope.
25 HR. HARKS These come franked.
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1 (laughter.)
2 CONNISSIONER HENDRIEa Congressmen always expect 3 to get soft and mushy ansvers to questions when they are 4 responded to by full-time government employees, and there 5 are good reasons for that.
Your status as an independent 6 body as experts who are not in fact full-time government 7 employees gives you a certain latitude, which if you do not 8 exercise it, A,you lose it,B, I do not think you are 9 getting all the benefits that are due you.
10 ER. HARKS David?
It ER. OKRENT4 Can I ask a question that gets back 12 to resources?
Joe has had a fairly broad range of 13 experience and maybe he would volunteer an answer.
14 Frequently issues arise like, you know, what kind of a level 15 meter should be had on a pressure vessel or what should be is the qualification of -- with regard to seismic events or so 17 forth, or at least in some cases we night say it is 18 reasonable to ask the licensee to devalop an argument for 19 why what he has got is okay or why what he plans to do is 20 okay.
21 And one might at least conceive an approach where 22 the staff does not develop an equivalent regulatory guide, 23 you know, or a position as to what he needs to do.
Now, I 24 say in theory one could envisage that that night be an 25 approach.
Now in practice it night turn out, in order for ALDERSoN RI: PORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 G02) 554-2348
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l 1 the staff either to review what they submit or in f act to i
2 get them to do anything close to what they think is 3 reasonable, they have to have something fairly specific in 4 mind.
5 If the 1stter is always going to be the case, 6 then, you know, we sort of have to get what some people call 7 a prescriptive mode, and ; ion cannot really shif t 8 responsibility to the licensee that many people say is O really theirs.
10 Can you offer any comments on this kind of 11 question?
Do you see any trend that might change or so 12 forth7 13 COERISSIONER HENDRIEa Yes.
The trend I see is we 14 are going more in the prescriptive direction, having been 15 questioned multiply about its pitfalls two years ago.
We 16 have been going vigorously, more vigorously in that 17 direction than bef ore, for reasons which I find hard to 18 f ault and participate in myself.
Is We need to get some resolution to this thing and 20 you can see, it seems at least clear wnough to a group of 21 us, that if you will put in a three-quarter inch widget, 22 why, that would do it.
There sight be other ways to do it, 23 but a three-quarter inch widget would be okay.
Now, why 24 don't we just order everybody to put in three-quarter inch 25 vidgets and stop arguing about it?
Otherwise a year fron l
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28 1 now we will still be looking at complicated analyses of why 2 some other kind of proposition is better and nothing vill 3 have been done.
4 So you kuow, you can see why you get driven in 5 that direction.
And I have not seen, over this time of 6 enormous thras%ing post-Three Hile Island, I have not seen 7 any war to avoid it.
8 I have some small hope that we may he approaching 9 a time when we have as little opportunity to try to think 10 again about those three-quarter widgets and perhaps 11 reorganize some of that.
The orders and bulletins and 12 agreements and regulations, ree guides, that in fact are 13 required, reg. guides that are mostly required, some staff 14 seaber's paper at a conference in Chicago that is required 15 -- good God, if you really had to compile all the absolute 16 -- you know, all of the regulatory material which is in fact 17 compelling in terms of what the fact -- in terms of what the 18 staff requires,. we cannot do it because we cannot identify 19 it.
20 It is not just the regulations,.it is an awfuJ. lot 21 aore.
In the course of trying to reorganize some of that to l
22 include more rational, more understandable, more 23 identifiable formats, I would hope there would be some 24 opportunities to latch onto some of the more prescriptive 25 stuff.
But every time you try to do that in an area, why, I
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
29 1 you will run into all kinds of difficulties.
2 I am going to launch one in the next week or ten 3 days and then, having dealt the container into the fan, I an A going to go off and you can do with it what you will.
It is 5 on ATUS.
The staff has had various propositions before us, 6 some modified little brief ones that have gone on and on 7 beyond the memories of man.
8 And I have struggled with the latest one for a 9 long time and I just cannot get around it and feel 10 comfortable with it in any way.
It is too much a Chinese 11 menu in which you pick one from column A and two from column 12 B and any three from column C and somehow that takes care of 13 ATES.
And it has to my mind all kinds of prescriptive 14 gianickry in it which I au convinced will lead in the long 15 run to degradation of the ATUS systems and plants.
16 So I have enlisted support from some folks out in 17 the risk assessment groups and I as going to produce a 18 proposition which says, let's deal with ATWS.
You know, 19 there are a certain number of hardware fixes.
You have to 20 do something about the dominant BWH sequences.
21 But once you get past that, the approach is going 22 to be to require a reliability assurance program on the part 23 of licensees in which the staff will only audit the program i
24 from time to time, and then amend tech specs as changes in 25 operation or hardware flow from that program.
Get it l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
30 1 started at plants.with regard to ATUS vulnerabilities and 2 ATUS measures that could improve the ATUS resistance of 3 plants, the requirement that the utilities go ahead and 4 formulate the steps they are taking and take them, the, 5 requirement for a continuing program that maintains 8 configuration control on things that have significance for 7 ATVV.
8 And whether anybody will like that or not, I do S not.know.
Lut it is an approach in which you in effect say to to the plant peoplea You go and analyze, look at your plant 11 and decide. where you are most voinerable and what you can do 12 about it, and do it, and you know, file. the outline of your 13 plan.with us in due time and let us know what changes you 14 vant to make so we can adjust the toch specs.
So it 15 prescribes very little except to put this kind of a program 18 in place.
17 Ton know it is this kind of direction you 18 mentioned, and it will be interesting to see whether people, 19 you know, including myself I guess, but people both on the 20 regulatory side and on the industry side who have said we 27 ought to do that instead of this prescriptive stuff, it will 22 be interesting to see how many of them find it to their l
23 liking.
And if they decide, no, no, they vot.1d rather be 24 told to put in three-quarter inch vidgets and --
25 ER. OKBENTs Do you think it has a chance with l
ALDER 8oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 Vf% INIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2348
31 1 something as complex at ATHS?
You would think it would go 2 better on the level meter, wouldn't it?
Just say, we want 3 rou to have a level meter that works with the right kind of 4 --
5 CONHISSIONER HENDRIE:
I good reliable level meter 6 that we could depend on in accident conditions.
7 ER. OKRENTs Right.
8 CORRISSIONER HENDRIEa Tell us when you put it in.
9 ER. OKRENT4 Right.
And then you could save two 10 man-years of staff and, you know, well --
11 CORMISSIONER HENDRIE:
We have ba ttalions of NRC 12 people out there who want to know whether they are going to 13 use 632 or 832 screvs with this level machine.
And you 14 know, our system is just to look at it in detail and give it 15 everything we can get our hands on.
16 ER. SIESSs How do you know when you are 17 satisfied?
18 CORNISSIONER HENDRIEs You are generally sati'sfied 19 when you run out of -- when one of two things happens:
When 20 you have exhausted. the villingness of all staff members to 21 work further -on it on the one hand, or exhausted the 22 patience of a sufficient management level so that the order 23 comes down, you know a Close of business this Friday, 24 anything you can get me by then I will take and it will 25 apply to this subject, and anything that comes af ter that is
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j 32 1 not relevant.
2 MH. BENDEHs Do you define that as a safety goal, 3 Joe?
4 (Laughter.)
5 HR. HARKS Well, Joe, I do not think we have 6 further questions.
Do you have a question you want to sia 7 at us?
That would.make it fair.
8 CQHEISSIONER HENDRIEs I will leave you with a 9 parting. thought.
It seems to me, aside from your work on 10 saying what the individual plants need and ought to do and 11 so on, which is of vital importance to my success as the 12 great licenser, I think one of the most useful enterprises 13 you have undertaken in recent Years is the safety goal 14 report and moving toward a rational, quantitative expression 15 in some fors of flow safe is safe enough continues to be a 16 desperate need of the whole regulatory enterprise here.
17 And I know without having to sty it, I urge your 18 co'ntinued interest and encouragement of the proposition and 19 participation in that.
20 ER. HARKS Well, an interesting thought, Joe.
21 Some of us are afraid that there is a possibility this might 22 be the last time we see you here as Chairman.
He are not 23 sure.
24 CC3HISSIONER HENDHIEs Your fears are my hopes.
25 (Laughter.)
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1 It goes to show how different one's viewpoint may 2 be.
3 ER. MARKa In tha t ca se, our viewpoint is very-4 different.
5 COMHISSIONER HENDRIEa In fact, I can guarantee 8 it.
7 (Laughter.)
8 ER. HARKS Well, we are not going to be as happy i
9.with.just that aspect of things anyway.
And if you are not 10 Chairman, then we of cource are anxious that you still not i
11 forget the scene in this room and you come back and look at 12 it once in a while and, we vill hear from you.
13 HR. SIESS:
We are short a member, Joe.
14 (Laughter.)
l 15 COENISSIONER HENDRIEs I think I have developed a
}
18 def ect in my hearing, Chet.
17 (Laughter.)
i 18 CORRISSIONER HENDRIE Good luck and have fun.
i 19 (Applause.)
20 (Whereupon, at 4:08 p.m. the meeting was 21 adhourned.)
22 i
24 25 l
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2 NUCLEAR REGULA':'Oltf COMMISSICN This is to certify thai: the a Cached proceedings before the in the ma.tter of;.
Joint. Meeting of Commission and ACRS Date of Proceeding:
June 5, 1981 Oceket Number:
Placa of P: cceeding: Washington, D. C.
were held as herein appears,,and. that this is the original tran.scripe -
thereof for the fila of the Comrsisston.,
nv,<a n na ru r Official Ieporter (Typed)
MLL-ts:au:mz a
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