ML20003H249
| ML20003H249 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 04/28/1981 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8105050405 | |
| Download: ML20003H249 (89) | |
Text
20,302 1
UNITED STATES OF ABERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COHNISSION
(
3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 3
4 In the matter ofs s
4 5 NETROPOLITAN EDISON COMPANY Docket No. 50-289 4
(Restart) 8 (Three Mile Island Unit 1) a 7
8 25 North Court Street, 9
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 10 Tuesday, April 28, 1981 11 Evidentiary hearing in the above-entitled 12 matter was resumed, pursuant to adjournment, at 1:05 p.m.
l 13 BEFORE:
14 IVAN W. SMITH, Esq., Chairman, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 15 DR. WALTER H. JORDAN, Hember 18 DR. LINDA W. LITTLE, Member 17 Also present on behalf of the Boards 18 MS. DORIS MORAN, 19 Clerk to the Board 20 21 i
M 23 24 l
25 l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
[h(([jk((
4o0 VIRGINIA AVE S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
20,303 1 APPEARANCES 6 2
On behalf of the Licensee, Metropolitan Edison Company 3
GEORGE F. TROWBRIDGE, Esq.
4 ERNEST BLAKE, Esq.
ROBERT ZAHLER, Esq.
5 DELISSA RIDGW AY, Esq.
I Shaw, Pittman, Potts and Trowbridge, 6
1800 5 Street, N.W.,
l Washington, D. C.
On behalf of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvanias 8
i ROBERT ADLER, Esq.
I 9
HICHELE STRAUBE, Esq.
l Assistant Attorney General, l
10 505 Executive House, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 11 WILLIAH DORNSIFE, Nuclear Engineer 12 On behalf of Anti-Nuclear Group 13 Representing York 14 GAIL BRADFORD l
15 On behalf of-the Regulatory Staffa
(
16 JAMES TOURTELLOTTE, Esq.
Office of Executive Legal Director, 17 United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Washington, D. C.
18 Petitioners for leave to intervene cro sa:
HRS. NORMAN AAMODT, 20 R.D. 5, Coatesville, Pennsylvania v
21 22 23 24 25 f
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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SSE2EE3E 2
@ROSS WITNESS;
. DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS BOARD ON BOARD 3
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Aamodt No. 6 20,377 i
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20,304 E'g g C 5 g o 1 y S g 2
(1:05 p.m.)
3 e
CHAIRMAN SEITHa Good afternoon.
4 Is there any preliminary business?
5 MR. TROWBRIDGE:
A small iten, Mr. Chairman.
8 licensee requests permission to respond to UCS l
l 7 response on our response on block valve testing.
We would 8 file our response next week and ask that the Board not rule 9 on the UCS notion to reopen until they have received our 1
10 response.
l 11 (Board conferring.)
12 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Okay.
Observing that UCS did 13 raise new considerations, we think that response by licensee 14 is appropriate.
I 15 I would like to report on ex parte conversations 18 with Ms. Weiss and Fr. Trowbridge, the results of which UCS 17 will wait until -- will file a written paper, a paper with 18 respect to their needs on the Supplement 3 to NUREG-0680.
19 And for that reason they will not be present today on that l
l 20 particular document.
21 They will file their paper by May 1, and then the 22 parties will respond -- what was agreed upon there, F. r.
23 Trowbridge?
24 MR. TROWBRIDGE I do not think we established a 25 date when we vculd respond.
We expected to respond before ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 i
20,305 1
the Board -- by the time the Board is back from its seminar.
2 CHAIRMAN SMITH All right.
This procedure was 3 agreed upon by Licensee and the Staff and the Board.
4 HR. TROWBBIDGE:
Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Sho11y 5 is included in that with respect to his individual l
6 contentions.
He also will file anything he he has anything l
7 to file by May 1.
8 Secondly, although I cannot say definitely that the 9 c'onversa tiens with Ms. Weiss or Hr. Cutchin were this 10 explicit.
Certainly I had in my mind and thought they had 11 in their mind that this covered all of the supplementary 12 saf ety evaluations, the 0737, 0694, as well as Supplement 3 13 to the SEH.
14 CHAIEHAN SMITHS That was the thrust of her letter, 15 that she would address -- her letter of April 24 to the 16 Board members stated "UCS would object in the strongest way i
17 to introduction into evidence of these new Staff SER 18 supplements and SEBs before we have had a reasonable chance 19 to review them and determine whether cross examination is 20 necessary."
l x
21 So she was referring to --
22 MB. TROWBRIDGE:
What was the antecedent to the 23 "these?"
l 24 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
She said, "This morning I received 1
25 a copy of two additional documents, the SER for items At.DERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,306 1 contained in Enclosure 1 to NUREG-0737 and for items 2 contained in NUREG-0694."
So she would be referring to 3 those a t least, and most specifically the Supplement 3 to 4 the SER.
5 She did not include it in the letter.
It was 8 included orally.
7 MB. THOWBRIDGE:
On further reflection, I believq 8 Ms. Weiss and I were on the same wavelength in that she told 9 se, for example, she would not have anything on the 10 Supplement No. 1 to the control room design review, so I 11 think --
12 CHAIRMAN SMITHS She told me that, too.
I 13 MB. TROWBRIDGE:
So I think we are talking about j
14 that same package of papers put into evidence last week.
15 CHAIBMAN SMITH:
I asked her to indicate if there 16 are any that she knows now that they will not have a probles 17 with, and she referred to the Supplement 1 to NUREG-0752, 18 which is the control room design review report for THI-1.
19 HR. ADLER:
Mr. Chairman, the Commonwealth also 1
20 intends to request witnesses on selected technical issues l
21 and --
22 CHAIBHAN SMITH:
You know th'is now.
Iou already l
23 know this.
24
- 58. ADLERs We know in general.
I think it would 25 be more efficient to address the specifics according to the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
-,. - - - -.... ~ -.
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1 same procedure as UCS and Mr. Sholly.
2 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
All right.
3 Do you want to follow the same schedule, too?
4 MR. ADLEBa Yes, sir. if that is convenient for the 5 other, parties.
6 (Board conferring.)
7 CHAIRMAN SMITHS There is another pending matter, 8 and that is, when Dr. Eosztoczy was present, Mr. Cutchin --
9 this is at transcript 6,928, November 26, Mr. Cutchin 10 stipulated that if the Board and the parties wish Mr.
11 Rostoczy back, Dr. Rosztoczy back, he would be made 12 available, and Ms. Weiss says this is the case, that ther 13 vant hia back, and I understand that that is still the case.
14 I wonder if you could give us a report on how you 15 intend to proceed, or if you have communicated with Ms.
16 Weiss on that.
17 (Counsel for NRC. Staff conferring.)
1 18 MR. TOURTELLOTTE:
This is on the environmental 19 qualification of equipment, and the latest information that l
20 I have is that Mr. Rosztoczy is still preparing testimony s
21 f or a return visit, and I am not certain as to when that 22 testimony will be ready.
I will check this afternoon and
(
23 see if I can get an update on it.
24 CHAIRMAN SMITHS All right.
l 25 MR. TOURTELLOTTE:
We did envision that he would be ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. G.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
10,308 1 returning, however.
That is why we are preparing the 2 testimony.
3 CHAIRMAN SMITH Staff Exhibit 15 does not seem to 4 be the subject -- that is the Supplement 1 to NUREG-0752, 5 cor. trol room design -- does not seem to be the subject of j
6 any Intervenor any interest.
Mr. Shelly is not here.
It 7 was, as we noted before, it was specifically mentioned by 8 Es. Weiss as not beino in the realm of interest of UCS.
We 9 do note, however, that the Staff expects certain license 10 conditions or that the -- well, on page 12 of the supplement 11 the Staff states, "The Staff believes that compliance with 12 the recommendations made herein should be made a condition ~
l 13 of restart," which suggests that this seems to be an open 14 aspect of the litigation.
15 I do not think that we have been informed 16 adequately on what we need for a. decision.
17 MR. THOWBRIDGEs 3r. Chairman, I think we are going 18 to have to come back to you with a report.
Maybe I can do 19 it.
But I know we have been in communication with Staff 20 counsel, Hr. Cutchin.
More precisely, this was what was 21 intended to be covered in that sense.
We d'id not know what 22 -- we were not sure we understood the antecedent.s of the 23 sentence, and we could not quite apply the tables so we do 24 have to come back to you.
25 CHAIBMAN SMITH:
Yes.
I see on the table they l
ALDEREoM REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 i
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20,309 I ref er to 14C as being an area in which Staff and the i
2 Licensee are not in agreement.
That is a backup display l
l 3 system for selected in-core thermocouples.
But I could not 4
identify any other, and it does seen --
5 (Board conferring.)
6 DR. JORDAN:
There are a number of items that are 7 open on page 6 and --
8 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
I do not mean -- I mean a dispute.
9 DR. JORDAN:
Oh, I see.
Disputed items.
l l
10 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Are there any -- well, you don't i
11 vant to report yet, but that is the only ites of dispute 12 that I can identify.
13 MR. TROWBRIDGE:
I am not even sure " dispute" is l
14 the right word, Mr. Chairman.
It is the only item in that 15 document that you are talking about, the supplement to the 18 control room design review.
That is the only item I can put 17 my finger on that needs resolution with the Staff.
l 18 (Pause.)
19 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
And I could not understand the 20 meaning of the HFEB, human factors engineering, but I cannot 21 come up with B.
What does that mean, HFEB?
l 22 HR. TOURTELLOTTE:
Branch.
23 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Branch.
So what should we do with l
24 15?
Just defer it until further report?
l 25 MR. TROW B RIDGE :
I think so, Mr. Chairman.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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CHAIRMAN SMITH:
All right.
2 Well, as it turns out, the Board itself needs more 3. time to determine whether it has additional problems with 4 these documents, so we have nothing more to bring up 5 specifically.
6 (Board conferring.)
7
. CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Supplement 2 to NUREG-0680 has 8 been received in evidence, and the question of whether that 9 requires additional sponsorship is open and should be 10 addressed today.
11 Are you prepared to -- are there any Intervenors 12 present who have a problem with it?
13 MRS. AAMODT I am sorry, Mr. Smith.
Did you say 14 supplement -- 1, 2, yes, I have problems with that.
15 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
You do?
16 MRS. AAMODT:
Yes.
I 17 MR. TROWBRIDGEa Mr. Chairman, I would note fer 18 whatever relevance it is, 2 was admitted, was introduced and 19 admitted some -- quite some time ago.
This was not one of 20 the new l
t 21 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Ch, that is right.
Well, we have 22 it as Staff Exhibit 13.
It was received in evidenC3 at l
23 transcript 20,121.
1 24 MR. TROWBRIDGE:
Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, I correct l
25 myself.
It was Supplement No. 1 that was received some time ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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ago.
2 CHAIRMAN SMITH Supplement No. 2 --
3 MR. TROWBRIDGE You are'quite right.
4 CHAIRMAN SNITH Is management supplement, and of 5 course, we are going to be receiving additional evidence on 6 health physics, but that is an important aspect of this 7 document.
8 All right, H r. 7 Aamodt.
Would you clarify your 9 remarks?
10 NRS. AAMODT4 Mr. Smith, I have my objections in 11 writing for both Supplement 2 and 3 regarding my Contention 12 No. II, and I do not know whether -- I was unsure which way 13 you would want them.
T can go through them orally, or I 14 could present them to you in writing.
They are ready in 15 here.
i 18 i
17 18 19 20 t
21 22 23 24 l
25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
i 20,312 1
CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Do you have sufficient copies in 2 vriting to provide the parties?
3 HRS. AAHODT I did not have them photocopied, but 4 I do have them here with me.
5 CHAIBMAN SMITH Well, perhaps the better way l
6 would be to have enough copies for everyone to look at, and l
7 then we could read'it and then ask questions.
8 HRS. AANODT:
That would be fine.
9 (Board conferring.)
10 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
We do have some other matters, 11 though, that we can use this available tim e.
We vill come 12 back to it when we get copies of it.
13 The Board has been looking at the transcript and 14 the chart with respect to Mrs. Aamodt's motion on operator i
15 t ra ining, and we think it might be helpful if we knew just 16 what your modifications to that chart would have been, 17 notwithstanding the fact that you could not arrive at any 18 agreement.
I mean, we are lef t with the suggestion that the 19 chart, on itself, is -.
20 HR. TLOWBRIDGE:
If I could go across the hall and 21 get a piece of paper, I could come right back and do that, l
22 Mr. Chairman.
23 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Why don't we collect all of the 24 things that may require later consideration.
As it turns 25 out, I do not have the papers here, either, so we will l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 V!RGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,313 1 probably be taking a break and coming back.
2 Mr. Adler, were you trying to get my attention?
3 MH. AD1ER:
I was going to raise that.
I raised l
4 tha t with M r. Blak s earlier.
I found that table to be 5 extremely unhelpf ul in the record.
It was extremely auddy 6 in the record.
l 7
CHAIBHAN SHITH:
Our concern is, is the statement 8 correct that the table depends solely upon record 9 information.
That was the statement Mr. Blake made in his 10 record, but we have not had a chance to actually compare it, 11 and that does not seem to be conceded by Mrs. Aamodt.
And 12 ve have not had a chance on our own to verify that.
13 BR. B1AKE:
Mr. Chairman, I believe I said I 14 thought'it would clarify the record.
In fact, there is 15 information in the table which is not otherwise a matter of l
l 16 record.
l 17 For example, overall, the numbers of operators 18 that was discussed was 31.
That is because Mr. Kelly's 19 croup only tested 31 individuals.
The company did two 20 additional people who apparently were not available when Mr.
21 Kelly did his testing, and therefore, there are some numbers 22 of 33 in the first footnote of the table.
I think it is the 23 first footnote; I do not have it in front of me.
24 It indicates we added the other two, so it would 25 be a total -- so the total numbers would be available.
That ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W WASHINGTON O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l - -.. -..
20,314 1 is an example.
I do not know that there is any other -- it 2 is certainly a more complete record of all of the 3 information on the results of the testing.
I caanot point 4 to anything else.
5 DR. LITTLE:
Is there anything in the table which 6 is at variance with what is in the transcript?
Is the chart 7 a summary of what is in the transcript?
8 MR. BLAKE:
That was our intention, and it may 9 very well be that it may be at variance with one or another 10 of the statements in the transcript, but I think that each 11 of them was corrected as we went through.
I have not gone 12 back line by line, Dr. Little, and I cannot represent to you 13 that it is not at variance.
I do not believe it is.
14 I think it is a captured summary of what they were 15 saying, but we did not approach it ever in an organized 16 fashion before as we went through it on cross examination.
17 It sort of came out in dribs and drabs.
And each time when 18 it came out, I'm not sure that each of the witnesses had l
19 available in front of him the statistics, so some numbers 20 were changed as they were testifying.
I do not know that it 5
21 is not at variance with those.
22 I point out to you at least in that one area, I am 23 aware that it is more complete.
24 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
We agree tha t the table wCuld be 25 very helpful.
We would like to have the table or something ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,315 1 of that nature, but we have the problem of ruling on a 2 motion and we are very disappointed that something could not 3 be worked out.
4 NHS. AAMODT Mr. Smith, ma y I comment on that?
5 CHAIRMAN SHITHs Yes.
6 HRS. AAMO,DT:
The table also contains other 7 information besides that which Mr. Blake mentioned that is 8 not in the record, and that is the column after the oral 9 exam, which is re-exam, there is no explanation of that in 10 the record or any notice of that in the record.
11 And also, the re-exams on Category T are not in 12 the record.
The licensing of several_of the operators who 13 were formerly designated as trainees is not in the record.
14 The record also disagrees in that the number of oral 15 examinations that were either failed or marginally passed 18 was given as six by Mr. Kelly and there was no further l
17 correction of that.
That stands in the record.
And his 1
18 disagreeing with the column here, oral exam.
19 Also, the column " exam" on Category T, the first 20 exam, Dr. Long came back -- it is in the 1300 's in the
\\
z 21 record, and corrected at 13212, saying that 15 passed, which 22 made 16 fail.
So that again is a contradiction of the 23 record.
24 CHAIEMAN SMITH:
You mean Dr. Long's subsequent 25 testimony was in contradiction to the earlier testimony?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l
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ERS. AAHODTa Well -
2 CHAIHHAN SHITH Or a clarification?
Was it at 3 variance?
4 NHS. AAHODTa It went back and forth, but the last 5 two recordings of the number who failed on Category T by 6 both Er. Kelly and Dr. Lo ng was 16.
Dr. Kelly in his 7 testimony had it as 15, but then that was corrected by both 8 Dr. Kelly and Dr. Long, as I understood it.
9 CHAIHHAN SHITHa We will have to t.ake this up 10 af ter the break because I de not really even have the chart 11 or the motion before us.
We are having a difficult time 12 with this and there has to be an easier way to do it, and we 13 would like to explore it'some more.
14' HRS. AAHODT:
Mr. Smith, -
15 CHAIRHAN SHITHs We are almost getting begged down 16 on this and we have more important things to do.
17 HHS. AAHODTa I stand corrected.
Hr. Kelly had 18 given it as 15 f ailed in his testimony and in the record, 19 but the OARP review and Dr. Long both said 16, so we have 20 two counts of one way and two counts the other way.
21 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Yes.
Well, you see, our problem 22 is trying to identify the importance of the difference to 23 the extent that the record has to be reopened for it.
That 24 is cur problem.
Just one of several problems that we have.
25 HRS. AAHODTa I felt that the re-exans and th e --
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,317 1
that the two re-exams would give opportunity -- would b4 2 more important in finding -- ha ving cross examination on 3 them.
That would give opportrnity perhaps to clear up this 4 15 or 16.
So it was summarized correctly.
5 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
All right.
We are spending a lot I
6 of time on it, and nothing simple seems to present itself.
7 Okay then.
8 We also have pending, which we had deferred f or 9 later argument was your request to have a letter from the 10 Humane Society received.
11 58S. AAMODTa Yes.
12 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
Into evidence.
Er. Zahler is not 13 here.
14 MR. TROWBRIDGE:
I'm afraid we need Mr. Zahler who 15 is here.j 18 CHAIRNAN SHITH:
Okay, that's another matter.
We 17 will identify all of these problems and then take a break 18 and come back and do what we can do.
I 19 MR. TOURTELLOTTE:
Is that a letter to the Humane 1
20 Society?
l 21 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Frou.
To Mrs. kamodt from Guy R.
22 Hodge.
It was passed on Friday.
23 (Board conferrinc.)
24 All right.
We will then also, after the break, 25 make our final ruling on the thyroid blocking letters from l
l l
t ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 1
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20 318 0
1 the Commission.
We had indicated our inclination was to 2 receive only the Commission 's letters and not the background 3 data.
But we wanted to take one final look at it before we 4 make such a ruling, so we will do that also after our break.
5 All right.
Also we had indicated that we would 6 set aside time this af terncon to answer guestions or have a 7 discussion as to the requirements for proposed findings, and 8 1 do not know if you are interested in that, $s. Bradford, 9 but I see that there are no other intervenors here who 10 vanted to do that.
Or do you have any information 11 concerning what the intervenors might want along that line?
12 MS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
Mr. Smith, I*a just looking 13 at a document here that Ms. Gail Bradford brought to my 14 attention.
It is marked ANGBY Exhibit 1.
And Ms. Bradford 15 *-d$cated that she had asked that this be entered into the l
1C
_ sed, and it has not been ruled on yet.
17 I'm wondering if you can tell me how that stands
[
l 18 right now, or if there is to be a ruling.
l 19 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
That consists of a news release 20 with selected portions of some of the reports.
21 MS. 10UISE BRADFORDs That is rig'ht.
l 22 CHAIBMAN SMITHS We have not ruled on it.
It was 23 one of those items that seemed to have gotten Icst earlier 24 in the hearing and now she is offering it.
I assumed that 25 ve would have to wait until she is here to actually rule 1
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
20,319 1 upon it.
We have not received any arguments for or acaInst 2 its admission.
3 Es. Bidgway has been following this through.
She 4
can -
.5 MB. TROWBRIDGEs Sha is back with Mr. Zahler a trying to get him up to speed on one of the earlier Board 7 items.
Can you tell ne generally what this is about?
I do 8 not recognize ANGRY 1 at all.
9 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
We received an ANGRY Exhibit 2, 10 and neither my index nor those of your office could indicate 11 that there was actually an ANGRY Exhibit 1.
And last week 12 we brought it to Es. Bradford's attention and she says, 13 indeed, there was an ANGRI Exhibit 1 and she produced it 14 Friday or Thursday.
It' consists of a new release from the 15 THI Public Interest Hesource Center, with some attachments 16 f rom various reports, NUREC-0660 and others.
17 HR. ADLER:
Mr. Chairman, did that relate to 18 various management findings?
19 CHAIPMAN SMITH:
Yes.
20 HR. ADLER I believe what happened was Es.
21 Bradford raised it and Mr. Blake objected,'saying that we l
i 22 would need to trea t each one on a case-by-case basis; each 23 of those discrete findings by the various Commission 24 reports.
That is my recollection.
It was back in February.
25 CHAIRMAN SMITHS I remember seeing the news ALDFRSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
20,320 1 release, and I remember the attachments, but no one couId 2 identify -- no one has yet been able to identify a place in 3 the record where it has been ruled on, and that is the 4 problem.
Nor, for that matter, a place where it was 5 actually identified.
So that is why ve were prepared to do 8 it absent having it pointed out ts us that it has been ruled
-7 upon.
8 I remember having seen the document, having
~ ~
~
9 possessed it at one time, but that is about it.
So the 10 question is, does everybody know what -- did the parties get 11 a copy of the proposed ANGRY Exhibit 1 last week?
I will 12 pass out my copy and you can look and see if you did.
13 MS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
I have made several extra 14 copies just in case there were not any available, so I have u
15 an abundance of copies here.
16 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
So the problem is if we have 17 ruled and absent a new consideration, that disposes of it.
18 If we have not ruled, that is one of the things we want to 19 accomplish.
20 (Board conferring.)
21 Dr. Little seems to be confident 'that we have 22 never ruled on it, so I have confidence in her confidence, 23 so it looks like we will have to rule on it.
But there 24 again, if we have not or we cannot identify the arguments 25 made before or against its submission, we will have to do it ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 f
20,321 1 again.
One of you will have to represent the intervenors.
2 If you want to, that is fine.
Are you prepared?
3 MS. l0UISE BRADFORD:
Because there are portions 4 in here that are relevant to our contentions, I would be.
~
5 CHAIRHAN SMITHS Okay, but that still presents the 6 'p~ robles that it was offered by ANGRY, and unless you have 7 their permission to represent their interest in it, I do not 8 think it would be appropriate to hear arguments and rule in 9 the absence of Ms. Bradford.
10 HS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
I do not have that specific 11 permission.
12 CHAIRMAN SNITH:
Ehat.I would propose we do is if 13 during the recess, if this is any help, if you can identify 14 the document, if licensee can identify the document and 15 point out where it has been disposed of, we will look at l
l 16 that.
If not, we will have to set down some time to hear 17 arguments.
It seems to fit in this category of -- well, we l
i 18 will not discuss it right now.
l 19 Yes, we will.
We indicated earlier that we would 20 not, even though an investigation has been sponsored by the 21 Nuclear Regulatory Commission, we would not receive into 22 evidence large portions of them for the truth of the ma tter 23 or any significant portion for the truth of the matter 24 stated therein, over the express objections of the party 25 adverse to the sponsoring party without a witness.
And that ALDERSON REPoRTINCR COMPANY. INC, 400 %AGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) $54 2345
20,322 1 appears what the consideration is going to be here.
2 HS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
Hay I just point out, Hr.
3 Smith, that the copy that I just handed out I believe sight 4 have a page missing.
The first page of Table 1, the first 5 sheet of Table 1 seems to be missing.
8 CHAIRNAN SHITHs How does that begin?
I have 7 Table 1 and it becins 1,2,3,4.
Apparently I have the 8 correct or complete one.
9 HS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
The copy that Es. Eradford to gave me had a page missing which I did not notice until it 11 was too late.
12 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Okay.
At least maybe we can have 13 some information about it af ter the break.
Then, would you 14 advise me as to what your preference is about asking 15 questions about proposed findings or discussing it in more 16 details?
Is there a desire for that from Mrs. Aamodt, or 17 you, Ms. Bradford?
~
18 HRS. AAHODT You mean the form?
I 19 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Form, and any questions you might I
i 20 have as to our order, the form, the requirements, everything i
21 else.
We promised that we vould try to help pro se 22 intervenors on the proposed finding requirements, and we set i
I 23 aside a special session, and that special session was to 24 have been this af ternoon.
But if there is no interest in 25 it, well, we vill not do it.
We discussed it enouch, it l
l l
l ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VtRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346 1
20,323 1 seems to me, but we still want to give an opportunity to 2 provide answers to questions.
3 HRS. AAMODTa I evidently missed that, that that 4 would be a topic of discussion today.
I set aside the 5 document that you sent us to study another time.
So I would 6 not be prepared to know what I do not know.
7 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Well, I can probably describe the
- 8. documents that you have and the purpose of them.
9 HRS. AAMODTa All rich t.
l l
10 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Except for that, if you have 11 questions we would be glad to answer them later this l
l 12 afternoon.
Let's put it that way.
l
. to Ms. Bradford when she said it 13 We also indicated 14 would be a hardship for her to be here today, that we would 15 try to, at other times, answer specific questions she might l
16 have, but this was set aside as a general session to advise 17 intervenors concerning problems of proposed findings.
18 Okay, well, let 's tak e what, a half hour break ?
19 Would that be adequate to prepare for these matters?
All l
20 right, let's return here at -.
21 MR. TROWBRIDGE:
I do not think we have seen -.
l 22 Have we?
Excuse me.
l 23 (Counsel for the Licensee conferring. )
24 Could we come knock on your door in a half an l
25 hour2.893519e-4 days <br />0.00694 hours <br />4.133598e-5 weeks <br />9.5125e-6 months <br />?
We don 't know how much is involved in this, and I de ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
j i
20,32:4
)
1 need to talk to Mr. Zahler.
2 CHAIRMAN SHITH You what?
3 HR. TROWBRIDGE:
We do not know how much is 4 involved in what Mrs. Aamodt has just handed out.
I also 5 want to talk to 3r. Blake at least briefly about the tables, 6 the pass / fail table.
7 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
That is fine.
Why don't we do 8 that, because that will give the pa": ties an opportunity to 9 informally ask questions, and when everyone is ready to 10 proceed, you will just summon the Board and we will come 11 back in session.
12 ER. TROWBRIDGE:
All right.
13 (A short recess was taken.)
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 t
21 22 23 24 2fi ALDERSON REPORTING ColnPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2C2) 554-2345
r 20,325 l
1 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Are we ready to proceed?
2 HR. TROWBRIDGE Yes.
I think we are ready to 3 proceed on each of the subjects in any order the Board would 4 wish.
If you have notes, we will fo'llow yours and make sure 5 we will be complete.
6 CHAIREAN SMITH:
All right.
I have another matter 7 to report.
During the break Mr. Sholly called for the 8 purpose' of identif ying some records.
I took the occasion to 9 confirm that he will follow the procedure that UCS is to following with respect to the SER f or 0694, the 11 supplementary to 0680, and the SER for 0737 matters, and 12 that he has no interest in control roca design matters.
13 All righ t.
Then I propose we take up first Mrs.
14 Aamodt's offer into evidence a letter dated April 21, 1981, 15 from Guy "- Hodge of the Humane Society to Mrs. Aamodt.
16 Mrs. Aamodt, we had deferred this from last week.
17 Are there any objections?
18 HR. ZAHLER:
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
19 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
All right, 3r. Zahler.
20 ER. ZAHLER:
Licensee objects to the, letter 21 essentially because there is no sponsoring ' witness with I
22 respect to the letter; therefore, Licensee has no ability to 23 cross examine with respect to the letter.
This material 24 seems more appropriate as material that might be considered 25 in a limited a ppearance, and Licensee does not object to the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
l
]
20,326 1 letter being included on the docket as if it were a limited 2 appearance; but Licensee does object to it being received 3 into evidence.
4 Attached to the April 21 letter are excerpts from 5 a report entitled " Evacuation Planning in the THI 6 Accident."
The report and the cover sheet includes a 7 standard federal government disclaimer that while the report 8 has been reviewed and approved for publication by the 9 Federal Emergency Management Agency, such approval does not to signify that the contents necessarily reflect the views and 11 policies of the Federal Energency Management Agency.
~
12 Licensee would therefore object to the.,aerpts of 13 this report, again because there is no sponsoring witness, 14 and we have no ability to cross examine with respect to the f
15 document.
16 Finally, while Mr. Hodge refers to this document 17 in his cover letter, it is clear from an inspection of the 18 two that Mr. Hodge had no involvement in the preparation of 19 the attachment, and therefore, he is not able to sponsor it 20 either, even if he were present.
21 Again, licensee would not object to the letter and l
22 its attachment being received in the nature of a limited 23 appearance.
24 (Board conferring.)
25 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Any other objections?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
l 20,327 1
Nrs. Aamodt, we vill identify this as Aamodt 2 Exhibit 6.
That would be according to our records,your 3 sixth exhibit.
4 (The document referred to was 5
marked Aamodt Exhibit No. 6 6
for identification.)
7 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Do you have a comment, Ms.
8 Straube?
8 NS. STRAUBEs No.
10 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Staff?
11 NR. TOURTELLOTTE:
We vould agree with the 12 Licensee that it is objectionable because it is without a 13 sponsor.
It has no reliable probative value.
14 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Mrs. Aamod t.
15 NES. AANODTs Mr. Smith, I want to bring to your 16 attention that at transcript 18,685 I mentioned -- I asked 17 for -- to bring this in later.
It was given notice of with 18 a profiled testimony.
There was no objection, but I -- on 18 that regard, but I just wanted to bring tha t in.
20 I consider the letter an envelope which surrounds 21 the testimony of the farmers, the county agents, and the 22 veterinarians who were each looking from their evn 23 perspective.
It confirms the statements of three individual 24 groups who were each evaluating the interface between l
25 animals and their keepers from their own individual I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
i l
20,328 l
l 1 perspective.
2 The value of this testimony is as an envelope in,
3 that it provides testimony providing the same conclusions by 4 an acknowledge expert authority in the field of animal-huasn 5 interface.
8 I did not request that Mr. Hodge make an 7 appearance at' the hearing since the material is material 8 that we have had witnesses to cross question on, the very 9 people that were interviewed, the very kinds of people that to were interviewed in the research study.
I felt that it 11 would save time and that we would only come to the same 12 conclusions.
13 Mr. Hodge was involved with the authors of the 14 study, particularly Mr. Hilbert who did the research in the 15 TNI area.
And Mr. Hodge is specifically involved in the l
16 Humane Society in the interest of animals, livestCck and 17 other large animals.
i 18 Br. Smith, I have a covering page for this in 19 which I eliminated several of the pages.
I felt in looking 20 it over that not all needed to be included.
21 CHAIENAN SMITH:
Irs. Aamodt, you'still have not 22 addressed the primary objection, and that is that the j
23 authors of the two documents are not available for cross 24 examination, and that there was no objection based upon 25 relevance.
I ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,329 1
NRS. AAMODTs The material does not contradict any 2 other ma terial.
The material that is reported in the 3 document is simply confirmatory.
It does not in any way 4 upset any other conclusions that have been arrived at from 5 other testimony tha t has been presented.
And I felt that 6 this witness could have been presented, but I did not see 7 how it would aid in any way in drawing any different 8 conclusions than could be made already or in any other 9 addition to the hearing in this regard.
10 (Board conferring.)
11 HRS. AAMODT I see it is merely confirmatory of 12 the other.
13 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Okay.
You had indicated on April 14 14 that you had been expecting a letter from the Humane 15 Society.
This is at your citation now, page 18,685, and 16 that you would appreciate the opportunity when the county 17 agents appear to enter the letter in testimony.
You 18 probably meant just in evidence, because you had no plans to l
19 bring this person here as a witness to testify, did you?
20 HRS. AAMODT4 No, because I do not see his 21 testimony as contradicting anything or adding anything 22 except in that it brings it together.
It is 23 all-encompassing.
24 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
I understand that.
Mr. Zahler 25 indicated on the following page tha t they may very well have ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2145
20,330 1 objections to it, and indeed they do.
This is not really a 2 discretionary matter on the part of the Board.
This is a 3 very fundamental rule of evidence.
There is no basis upon 4 which we can accept either of these documents into evidence 5
over the objection of your adversaries without an l
6 opportunity to cross examine the authors.
7 NHS. AANODT Would the, licensee like to -- should 8 I try to present this witness then, Mr. Smith?
9 CHAIBMAN SHITH:
They are not asking it.
They to just object to the letter without any opportunity to cross 11 examine the author of it.
12 HRS. AAMODTa In what area would they like to 13 cross examine?
Perhaps they could indicate in the letter or
~
14 in the document what areas they would like to cross examine.
15 C,HAIRNAN SHITH:
They do not really have to until 16 it is offered, but they are welcome to state -- would you 17 care to state where you would cross examine if it vere 18 offered as testimony?
19 NR. ZAHLER:
Quite frankly, Nr. Chairman, I had 20 not reviewed it with that level of detail, but just as a 21 general matter, cross examine witn respect to the Humane 22 Society's knowledge of the present plans, what is provided, 23 whether they are acceptable or unacceptable.
They are very l
24 general words used in ths letter.
I just do not know that 25 the conclusions that can be drawn from the letter are ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
20,331 l
1 probative or reliable in this proceeding without the ability 2 to examine Mr. Hodge.
3 HRS. AAHODTs Mr. Hodge was not speaking about the 4 plans that were already in place.
He was speaking about the 5 attitudes that exist between owners -- keepers of animals 6 and their animals.
And I felt we had testimony and had 7 examined witnesses on that basis.
8 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
That does not really matter.
9 Okay.
If you have nothing further, the Board is to required then to sustain the objection.
It will be received 11 as Rejected Exhibit 6.
12 (The document referred to, 13 previously marked for identi-14 fication as Aamodt Exhibit No.
15 6,
was rejected.)
16 HRS. AAHODT:
Can it be received as a limited j
17 appearance statement?
18 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Yes.
I think the Humane Society, 19 if they wish, are quite entitled to have their views known 20 in the proceeding, and we will receive it as a limited v
l 21 appearance statement and have it inserted in the record, and 22 it will also be a rejected exhibit.
23 HRS. AANGDTs All right.
24 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
So Aamodt Exhibit No. F for i
25 identification is rejected.
ALDERSoN i1RPoRTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,332 1
MR. ZAHLER:
Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN SHITH Just a second.
3 (Pause.)
4
~
i CHAIRMAN SHITH Mr. Zahler.
5 HR. ZA::LER:
Just so the record is clear, could I 6 identify for the record what it is that constitutes this 7 exhibit, because it is excerpts of pages, and I am not sure 8 it is otherwise identified.
9 CHAIRNAN SMITHS All right.
10 HR. ': AHLER s It consists of a cover letter dated 11 April 21, 1980 1 rom Guy R. Hodge to Es. Harjorie.Aamodt, and
[
12 then two cover sheets identifying a report entitled 13 " Evacuation Planning in the THI Accident," pages 129, 130, 14 131, 132, 133, and 140, luo.
15 CHAIRHAN SMITH:
All right.
Thank you, Mr. Zahler.
16 NRS. AAMODTs Mr. Smith.
17 (Board conferrinc. )
18 HRS. AAMODT Mr. Smith?
l l
19 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Yes.
l 20 MRS. AAMODT When I vgs asked to specify my
~
21 concerns under Contention V, which is now EP-II, last fall I 22 mentioned the concern about humane aspects, and there was no 23 -- I understood that the specification of the contention'was 24 so tnat Licensee and Staff could provide witnesses to answer 25 the concerns of Intervenors, and that aspect of my interest ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. lNC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
20,333 1 was never answered, and it wasn't -- this was an attempt to 2 provide my own snswer.
3 CHAIBRAN SMITH: 'Whatever the purpose of it for 4 providing this letter and the attachment may have been, and
- 5. no.one is quarreling that it is relevant or otherwise 6 appropriate, it is flawed without the sponsoring witness.
7 HRS. AAHOCT:
I am not arguing about your ruling.
8 I understand your ruling.
What I am saying is I thought 9.today we were to bring concerns that we had -- areas tbst 10 had not been covered.
11 CHAIRHAN SMIT 3s Ch, I see.
12 MRS. AAMODTs And I am bringing that to you in l
13 that regard, that that area was not covered in the 14 specification of my contention, either by the Staff or the 15 Licensee in responding.
16 CHAIBHAN SMITH:
Well, that is up to them.
17 HRS. AAMODTs I thought perhaps they would like to 18 provide a witness that would either refute or support these 19 findings or this area of my concern.
20 BR. ZAHLER:
Mr. Chairman, Licensee is comfortable 21 with the current state of the record.
I would point out for 22 the Board's information that the FEMA witnesses did address I
23 this contention, that part of their testimony included 24 recognition of the fact that under the Commission's new 25 eme'rgency planning rule property, which would include l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTot: D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
~ -
20,334 1 livestock, is specifically excluded as being covered under 2 the requirements, and to the extent that it addresses Mrs.
3 Aamodt's concern in an indirect f ashion, that is the state 4 of the record, and Licensee is happy with it and does not 5 intend to provide any f urther evidence with respect to this 6 matter.
7 CHAIRHAN SMITHa It is up to them how they want to 8 address your contention.
If they want to take their chances 9 with the record the way it is, that is their prerogative now 10 to stand or fall on.
Okay.
Then let's move to --
11 HR. ZAHLER:
Mr. Chairman, if I might, I have one 12 further matter I would just.like to add, and then I believe 13 I do not have anything else.
14 During Mr. Levenson 's testimony I promised Dr.
15 Jordan to a cite of earlier testimony as to the use that ERP 16 makes of its flow chart type analysis under WASH-luco, and I 17 would just like to point out that that reference is at the l
18 bottom of page 18,141 to the top of 18,142.
19 In short, what Ms. Reilly said is we would ask the 20 Licensee for the information.
If the Licensee cannot 21 provide the information and if the accident is a severe one, 22 we get it from our fault tree analysis proiedure.
23 CHAIRMAN SMITHz The next itea, the Board has 24 decided that it will receive into evidence -- take official 25 notice of the three documents -- the memorandum from Chilk ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VtPGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
.,.n,-
20,335 1 to Dircks dated March 26, 1981, and the two attached 2 documents.
But we understood Mr. Gray to have been prepared 3 to give us clean copies of that letter.
When we searched 4 for it, we could not find it.
i 5
I understand he is coming up this afternoon.
As 6 soon as we have clean copies, we will receive it into the 7 transcript and officially notice it.
3 MR. TOURTELLOTTE:
Yes.-
He was supposed to be in 9 about now.
10 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
Well, if it is timely this l
11 afternoor, we will.
If not, whenever he can provide the 12 clean copies we will officially notice those documents.
13 NR. TOUBTELLOTTEa Okay.
14 CHAIRHAN SMITHS We had stated before the brea'.c j
15 that we would not take up ANGBY Exhibit 1 in the absence of 16 Gail Bradford.
Is that still the situation?
Have you had 17 any opportunity to speak to her about it?
18 MS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
I was not able to contact l
19 her about it.
20 CHAIRHAN SMITH:
Were you able to?
21 MR. TROWBRIDGEs We did a search, Mr. Chairma n, of 1
l 22 our memories as well as documents, and we were unable to i
23 locate any discussion or disposition.
24 CHAIBEAN SMITH:
We think that we can identify it l
25 now.
We think it was either during a break or after the l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (2C2) 554 2345
20,336 I hearing when Ms. Bradford approached the Board and stated 2 that she had these papers that she wanted to offer as an 3 exhibir, and we said it was too late that day, she should 4 ' come back and do it.
5 But that is how I happened to at one time have 6 seen this document, and Dr. Little and Dr. Jordan have, teos 7 but we think that is the explanation.
There has been 8 nothing on the record.
So we will defer until Es. Bradford 8 can come here, unless you would like to make separately --
10 you do not really have standing to move this into evidence, 11 but you can either work your arguments is with Gail Bradford 12 or, which I suggest that you do, cooperate with Gail 13 Bradford on it.
14 HS. LOUISE BBADFORD:
Fine.
15 CHAIRNAN SHITH:
Now we are prepared to take up 16 Mrs. Aamodt's objections to receiving without a sponsoring 17 witness certain parts of Supplement 2 and Supplement 3 of 18 NUBEG-0680.
l 19 Have you had any informal discussions that would 20 be helpful?
21 Dr. Little pointed out it might be a better 22 practice to taxe into consideration the motion to reopen the 23 record and the chart, and then in view of Mrs. Aamodt's 24 objections in light of disposition of that matter.
25 HB. TROWBRIDGE:
When you hear our answer perhaps ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l
20,337 1
2 CHAIRMAN SMITHS All right.
Go ahead, Mr. Blake.
3 MRS. AAMODTs Mr. Smith, aar I ask Mr. Trowbridge, 4 I cannot hear his here.
If he could speak more clearly, I 5 would appreciate it.
l l
6 MR. THOWBRIDGE:
I raid I thought Dr. Little when 7 *she heard our answer might no longer want to reverse the 8 order.
9 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Okay.
10 Mr. Blake.
11 MB. BLAKEs Mr. Smith, as to Mrs. Aamodt's 12 indication of objections, Licensee has no objection to her 13 being able to ask these questions.
She seems to have tied 14 then to the supplements, and we have no objections to these.
15 CHA2RMAN SMITH:
All right.
We are still back 16 with Mrs. Aamodt's motion --
17 MR. BLAKEs You might want to hear from'the NRC l
18 Staff on their supplement.
I was only representing our 19 position.
20 (Board conferring.)
21 MR. TOURTELLOTTEs We have no objections.
l 22 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Are we prepared to do that today?
23 MR. TOURTELLOTTEs No.
It would require, I think, 24 mostly the presence of Mr. Crocker and perhaps a couple of 25 other people, and they will be up tomorrow, so they will be i
l l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 534 2345
20,338 1 prepared to -- hopef ully be prepared to answer these 2 questions.
3 During the break I tried to get in tccch with both 4 Er. Crocker and Mr. Swanson, and nsither were available.
So
- 5. what I as representing to the Board is based upon the 6 assessment that we have made of the questions that were 7 asked.
I do not really see that they are objectionable, and 8 I believe that Nr. Crocker will be able to answer them.
He 9 may have a difference of opinion about that, but we will l
10 know -- he will answer to the extent that he can answer when 11 he appears tomorrow.
l 12 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Okay.
Well, now, in the related 13 matter, that is, the testimony on the control room operator 14 testing, the Board itself believes tnat the transcript is 15 very confusing and that same type of chart and 16 recapitulation of the record would be important -- would be 17 useful.
18 And we also note it is now clear that the proposed 19 chart and enclosed information which was not in the 20 transcript -- so we think that the most practical solution 21 to the problem is to produce a witness to s'upport the chart.
22 3R. TROWBRIDGE:
We will try snother approach, Mr.
23 Chairman.
I withdrew this table Friday largely out of 24 frustration and a certain degree of indignation about our 25 insbility to consunicate with "rs.
Aamodt.
I wish to try ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,339 1 again under somewhat different ground rules, and to see*if 2 we cannot -- if we have not got an accommodation here.
3 I advised all partier, including Mrs. Aamodt, 4 about the accommodation I'm about to propose, which includes 5 a proposal to put the affidavit and table in evidence and to 6 answer the 12 questions which Mrs. Aamodt had put to me.
7 Ths ground rules that I propose are as follows.
8 One, as to physical correction or alteration of the table, 9 there is one correction I propose at the outset, which is to one of the P 's, standing f or "pa ths," is in the wrong place, l'
and I will correct that.
Beyond that I propose that if any 12 of the answers I give in Mrs. Aamodt's view require a 1G physical alteration of the table, she is free to make that 14 :Juggestion to the Board.
15 Secondly, I am prepared to give answers to the 16 twelve questions, to represent as counsel that the answers 17 are correct, were provided by the company, and to be bound 18 by the answers.
19 Hrs. Aamodt is free to accept the information and i
20 use it as 'she sees fit or not.
She is not bound to accept I
21 or to agree to my answers.
22 Thirdly, Mrs. Aamodt indicated when we had a 23 discussion during the break in an effort to see whether we 24 could put Humpty-Dumpty together again, that she wanted more 25 witnesses to answer more questions in the general area of I
l t
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
403 VIRGINtA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
1 20,340 1 this table.
2 I opposed that.
I oppose that now.
But I do 3 propose that if Mrs. Aamodt accepts the table and the 4 affidavit and my ansvers under the ground rules I have just
'5 stated, she need not withdraw her motion for further, 6 reopenina of the record.
We will oppose it, and we vill 7 re-argue it with the Board, but she need not withdraw it.
8 This still leaves the Board with its decision.
9 CHAIBMAN SHITH The last I could not hear.
10 HB. TROWBRIDGE:
This would still leave the Board 11 with a decision, a decision which would be made, however, 12 knowing that the table and my further ansvers were in.the 1
13 record.
The Board would then have to' decide whether Mrs.
14 Aamodt had good reason to reopen the proceeding for further l
15 testimony.
16 CHAIRMAN SMITH What is your reaction, P.rs.
j 17 Aamodt?
1 18 HRS. AAMODTa I feel that there is no witness to 1
the graph as it 19 support the record -- the testimony 20 appears.
It is not in the record, and there is no witness 21 who has supported it on the record.
The information has 22 come to me not just secondhand but almost third or
- 23 fourth-hand.
This is essentially supposed to be Mr. Kelly's 24 findings and Mr. Kelly's testimony, so it is coming through 25 Mr. Kelly, Mr. Newton, Mr. Blake, and Mr. Trowbridge, and ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
i 20,341 1 then to us.
And I do not feel as though I can have faith in 2 that kind of many hands on the information.
3 I think it would be very confusing to have another 4 record of the data in the record of the hearing which we all 5 do not agree on.
6 (Board conferring.)
7 CHAIBHAN SHITH:
Is your probles that the 8 affidavit is by Mr. Newton, not by Kelly?
9 HRS. AAHODTs That is part of the problem.
10 CHAIRHAN SHITH Would that satisfy it if the 11 affidavit were by Kelly?
12 HR. TROWBRIDGE:
Mr. Chairman --
l 13 HRS. AAMODT:
Mr. Kelly could not --
14 HR. THOWBRIDGE That would not be suitable.
15 There is information in this that is not within Mr. Kelly's 16 province.
For instance, he did not do the retest 17 examinations.
He did the original examinations.
He is not 18 in a position to state the current position of the 19 individuals in tne company.
20 HRS. AAHODTa That is a point I wanted to make, 21 Br. Chairman, is that actually the tests on the special 22 post-THI-2 matter, category T, there results there are 23 essentially apples, oranges, and grapefruit.
24 The audit was to be by an independent firm 25 according to 0680, page C-1-16, and then to me it is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGl 41A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024(202) 554-2345
20,302 l
1 alarming that you have reactor operator trainees V, AA, and 2 HH who passed on the first try, whereas EE and FF are both 3 experienced, licensed senior reactor operators, and one 4-manager and the other, an operations engineer, failed.
The 5 operations engineer f ailed the second time.
6 -
And it is also troubling to me that whereas FF 7 failed twice and G and,H failed three times, that th e.te st 8 will be regiven to them.
9 MB. TROWBRIDGEa Mr. Chairman, Mrs. Aamodt has 10 again objected to the table without a witness.
That ends 11 it.
And I again --
l 12 CHAIRMAN SMITH Mr. Trowbridge.
I 13 MR. TROWBRIDGEs
-- Withdraw the table and'let the 14 Board 's ruling be what it is -- as I understand it, that we j
15 should come back with a table and a witness.
I do not want l
16 to spend further hearing time arguing with Ers. Aamodt about 17 a table that is in evidence.
18 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
If we do not solve it, it is 19 going to cost us some time because we are spending a lot of l
20 time trying to reconcile this table with the transcript.
21 HR. TROWBRIDGE:
I understand.
I made a second 22 'best ef f ort to get the table and resolve what I thought was 23 the Boa rd 's principal problem.
But if Mrs. Aamodt objects, 24 then I see no answer except for the Board to decide for 25 itself whether it wants a table and a witness.
If so, we l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
i 20,303 1 will produce the table and a witness, but let's stop erguing 2 with Mrs. Aamodt now about the table.
3 CHAIBMAN SNITH:
Yes.
I agree that it is not 4 appropriate for Mrs. Aamodt to argue at this point the 5 significance of th'e table.
The accuracy, yes, but the 6 significance is outside what we are doing now, and this is 7 what we are trying to establish, not the implications of the 8 arguments that you are making, but how do we go about 9 getting this information into evidence accurately.
10 HRS. AAMODT:
I understand what you mean, Mr.
11 Smith.
I do have some answers for Mr. Trowbridge, but they l
12 l
still leave me.with more questions.
l 13 CHAIRHAN SMITH:
That is another matter now.
That 14 'is another matter.
We may not just give you any opportunity 15 for more questions..That may be a solution -- I mean a 16 result.
17 MRS.* AAMODTs Could I pose one, Mr. Smith, that 18 may bring to the Board's attention the uselessness of some 19 of this datas for instance --
20 CHAIBHAN SEITH:
You do not have to worry about it l
21 being useless.
If it is too much, that is'not your problem 22 that I can see.
i 23 HRS. AAMODTs It replaces data in a wa y that 1
24 neither explains what it replaces nor it clarifies what it 25 is.
For instance, under re-exam column there is no re-exam ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,344 1 of what, and Mr. Trowbridge was going to make a note of"that 2 in the record.
And then what do those crades mean?
Do they 3 substitute for some other grades?
I do not know how to 4 interpret this table correctly.
I think it becomes more 5 ambiguous, the record becomes more ambiguous through the use 6 of this table.
7 (Board conferring.)
8 DR. LITTLEa Mrs. Aamodt, are you confused as to 9 what the re-exam column is referring to, the oral exam, the 10 vritten exas, or both of them together?
Ir, that the problem?
11 NRS. AANODT Well, I understand now from the 12 Licensee that they refer to the written examination, and I 13 have been given a list in some cases as to which examination 14 it refers to.
Whether it indicates a pass now on an 15 examination where it was previously failed, I do not know.
18 I also do not know whether this is an accurate
(
17 represen tation of a pass on a written test, if that is 18 indeed what it does indicate.
19 CHAIRMAN SHITH Now, did you understand the 20 significance of Mr. Trowbridge's offer to make a 21 representation of counsel?
This is sometim*es referred to as 22 party ada'ission.
They would not be able to point to Mr.
23 Trowbridge's statements in support of their case, but,you 24 could point to Mr. Trowbridge's statements in support of 25 your case.
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Did you understand that?
That is regarded as 2 being the most conclusive of all evidentiary situations, and 3 that is an admission by the counsel representing your l
4 adversary.
So his representations that this chart is 5 accurate and the additions to it could be used by you if you
- 6. prefer, but it could be also ignored by you if you prefer, 7 and it cannot be used by the Licensee to further their case.
i 8
Would you agree with that statement, Mr.
9 Trowbridge?
10 11 12 13 14 I
15 I
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 l
25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASH 6NGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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HR. TROWBRIDGEs Yes.
2 HRS. AAH0DTs Can it be used by the staff or the 3 other parties?
4 HR. TROWBRIDGEs Did you say the table as well?
- 5 CHAIRMAN SMITNs That is a crey area now.
6 HR. TROWBRIDGE Mr. Chairman, since you have not I
7 heard the questions or what my ansvers are, I can understand 8 some puzzlement.
As f ar as the table is concerned, that is 9 sponsored by an affidavit.
If it goes in, we would expect to to be able to refer to the table.
11 CHAIRMAN SMITHS All right.
12 HRS. AAHODTs Then I would object without a 13 sponsoring witness.
14 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Okay.
You know, if for no other 15 reason than a strong curiosity, we would like to know what 16 you are going to say about this table.
This is her 17 prerogative.
She does not have to accept it.
18 (Board conferring.)
19 CHAIRHAN SMITHS Now we have to go back to the 20 t ra nscrip t.
We have already spent some time at that, and it 21 is not very much fun, to becin with, and it'is not very 22 satisfying.
We would never have the feeling that we have 23 come completely to the end of the trail.
We still believe 24 that the information should be presented in table form, 25 considering Mrs. Aasod t's objections.
We have no discretion ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,lNC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
l 20,347 l
1 to receive it over her objections.
2 Therefore, our recommendation is that you present 3 a witness who can sponsor a table.
Now, we have not come to 4 the point where we have ruled that Mrs. Aamodt had an 5 opportunity which she did not pursue, and therefore, she
-8 should not have the record reopened.
We have only come to 7 the point where we are ourselves have had difficulty tracing 8 the -
9 HR. TROWBRIDGEs Mr. Chairman, we vill accept the 10 Board's recommendation without a ruling.
We vill produce 11 the table with a witness.
When we get to the end of the day 12 and get Mr. Zahler back in, it might be possible for us to 13 produce a witness tomorrow afternoon.
14 CHAIRHAN SHITHs Okay.
I think that is the best 15 solution.
16 HR. TROWBRIDGE:
And maybe -- without Mr. Zahler, 17 I do not know what we have on the plate tomorrow for sure.
18 HRS. AAHODTs Mr. Smith, Hr. Adler of the 19 Commonwealth has pointed out to se that perhaps I did not 20 understand your full explanation of what I would be 21 accepting if I accepted counsel's representations.
I 22 understand, through Mr. Adler, that I would have had the 23 chance to submit interrogatories and then if these were not 24 satisfactory, to have come back to the Board for relief, or 25 for further action, a witness, something like that.
Is that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON D.C.20024 (202) 554-2345
20,348 1 true?
2 HR. TROWBRIDGE:
I do not know what this is about.
i 3
MRS. AANODTs I did not want to a ppear to --
4 unnecessary, you know, -- to -- if there were another way to 5 be taking your time up here in thw hearing, if there were 6 another way to obtain this information.
And Mr. Adler wac 7 indicating that 1f when the counsel represents information 8 into the record that other parties can submit 9 interrogatories on that, and obtain further information in 10 tha t wa y.
11 MR. TROWBRIDGE:
I do not know -- Mr. Adler has 12 not spoken to me, but I do not recognize the process, and I 13 do not want to go through a further set of interrogatories.
14 We will produce a witness with a table tomorrow.
Can we l
15 stop talking about the table?
16 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
I understand why Mr. Adler, if 17 that is the case, could have construed that, because you did 18 suggest tha t there would be some questions that could be 19 put, and I thought they were questions to you that you were 20 referring to.
I think we have discussed it enough.
I think 21 sufficient effort has been made to try to c'ose to some 22 accommodation.
Three times it has been attempted by Y.r.
23 Trowbridge, unsuccessf ully, so now I think we should go 24 straight to the witness and the table.
25 MR. BLAKEa Mr. Faith, the witness that we are ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,349 1 talking about would be Hr. Newton, for a couple of reasons.
2 He 'is the one that we opted for on the affidavit, and he is 3 the witness that we would expect to tring tomorrow.
4 The first reason is that he is larediately 5 available, he is at the Island-and he is readily accessible 6'and we can get a hold of him on this sort of a rehedule, and 7 that is why we went to him initially.
8 The second is that his involvement in the operator 9 testing and training has been consistent along and includes 10 the re-test information which wo thought Mrs. Aamodt had an 11 interest in, and that is why we have the table in more 12 detail than is currently reflected in the record.
I will 13 try and contact him now and make him available tomorrow 14 afternoon.
But I do not want to Lo it if -- to the extent 15 that we are going to hear objections that Mr. Newton is not 16 the right fellow, I would like to entertain those now and 17 have it out because I sure do not want to go through the 18 work of bringing him here and find out he is not an l
19 acceptable witness.
He is the witness that we would propose 20 on this.
21-CHAIRMAN SHITH Mrs. Aamodt, do you have any 22 problems with Mr. Newton sponsoring such a table?
I think 23 we can assume that he himself will be able to state that he 24 has examined the records upon which this table -- the table 25 will be based, and can verify that these are the totals in l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
i 20,350 I the categories.
2 HR. B1AKEa Yes, he will be able to do that, and 3 if'I understood one of the problems Mrs. Aamodt had earlier 4 was with the 15/16, and in fact, this table squares with Mr.
- 5 Kelly 's 15.
If it had been the opposite way aroun.1, I could 8~see's potential problem.
7 HRS. AAHODTs It does not, though, with Dr. long.
8 NR. BLAKEa I understand.
I'm not proposing Dr.
9 Long.
10 CHAIRNAN SHITHs Is this a table in the direction 11 that Mrs. Aamodt's view goes from the testimony, from the 12 discrepancy?
13 HR. TROWBRIDGE:
I did not hear the question.
14 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
I heard the debate 16 to 15/15 to 15 163 which way does she want it to be?
This seems to me in 18 the direction that she says the evidence is going.
17 MR. TROWBRIDGE4 I think she should speak for l
18 herself.
I think she would prefer that figure is 16.
19 NRS. AAMODTa No, I would prefer it was 15.
Then 20 ve would t. ave at least one more qualified person.
21 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
I do not mean prefer.
This is 22 the direction she is arguing that the evidence is going.
23 HRS. AAMODT Both figures in the oral column and 24 the category T are not the way they last appeared in the 25 record.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
+-
20,351 1
CHAIBHAN SEITH:
Okay.
Well, they are more or 2 less.
3 HRS. AA3ODT They are less failures.
4 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Less failures?
S :;.
MRS. AAHODTa On the chart than it shows on the 6_ record.
7 CHAIBMAN SHITH Okay.
So, do you understand tha t 8 they are going to produce Mr. Newton, and they have 9 represented that Mr. Newton will be able to t'estify as to to these categories, based upon his own knowled'ge, or his 11 exaaination of the records.
Is that what your 12 representation is?
13 3R. BLAKEs Yes, sir.
14 NRS. AAMODTs Mr. Saith, I understood that Nr.
15 Hukill is the one that finally aake the certification upon 18 these data.
17 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Mr. who?
18 MRS. AAHODT Mr. Hukill.
I wondered if it was 19 his interpretation, evidently, of these dats and his l
20 certification of these data that will'go, evidently, to NRC, 21 and I wondered whether that would aake a clearer record.
22 CHAIRMAN SHITHs They do not choose to present Mr.
23 Hukill, as I understand it.
24 MB. TROWBRIDGE:
No.
25 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
You see, it is not who the best i
i t
j ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
20,352 1 witness is f rom your point of view, but it is, is the 2 witness competent to testify, does he have the information, 3 It is within their discretion.
l 4
HBS. AAMODTa There is just one other problem and 5
l that is, when we get to the NRC witness, which evidently is 6 also tomorrow evidently, NRC has indicated that they accept 7 an independent audit of category T, and -- well, maybe that l
8 'will just show that it does not exist.
Maybe that is all.
9 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Okay.
So this is what will l
10 happen, then.
This is a Board recommendation, not a ruling, 11 and you have considered it and you propose to approach then l
12 that way.
13 NH. THOWBRIDGEs Mr. Chairman, I do think we need 1
l l
14 to go over what it is we have scheduled for tomorrow.
'I'm 15 not sure we can accommodate, when I look for Mrs. Aamodt's 16 cross examination both on this table and on the supplement, l
17 and add that to what else we have for tomorrow.
We had 18 better consider are we over-scheduling the day.
I asked Mr.
19 Zahler to be here because he has a better notion.
20 I know we start off tomorrow with argument on 21 ANGRI's motion to add new witnesses.
22 CHAIBMAN SMITHS Well, that is the first order of 23 business; your argument, and then we have Peterson scheduled.
24 HS. STRAUBE:
Chairman Smith, 25 MB. ZAH1ERs Mr. Chairman, I discussed with Ms.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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20,353 I
1 Straube the agricultural agent to supplement Mr. Corbin s 2 testimony.
He is available first thing tomorrov morning, 3 and it was acceptable to licenses to take that witness first 4 thing tomorrow morning and to defer the argument for that 5 limited amount.
6 CHAIRNAN SMITHS What is his name?
7 MS. STRAUBE Bill Foust.
8 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
Okay.
9 DR. LITTLES Has Ms. Bradford been notified?
10 MS. STRAUBEs Es. Bradford has not, but Ms. Aamodt 11 has been, and I can call Ms. Bradford this evening and tell 12 her.
She knew he was coming Wednesday.
I think the only 13 thing she does not know is 9:00 o' clock in the morning.
14 CHAIRMAN SMITH This is on food?
Foodstuffs?
15 HS. STRAUBE Bilk.
16 HR. ZAHLERs Milk contamination, I believe.
Dr.
i 17 Little, I have spoken with Ms. Bradford a couple of times 18 today and I, in f act, did indicate to her that the 19 agricultural person woul,d come up first before the argument.
20 CHAIRMAN SHITH Before the argument?
21 ER. ZAHLER Yes.
It is my understanding that he 22 is available for a very limited time tomorrow morning.
23 MS. STRAUBE From 9:00 until quarter of ten is 24 the only time he has available.
25 CHAIRMAN SMITH Should we start earlier tomorrow?
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, I
400 VIRGINIA AVL S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 GS
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MS. STRAUBEs It was my understanding that the 2 questions that were asked on Friday were the only questions 3 there would be.
I'm not sure that is going to take very 4 long.
~
5-CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Do you agree, Mrs. Aamodt?
l 6--
MRS. AAMODTs Yes, I do.
As far as I as l
7 concerned.
I do not know what Mr. Cunningham or Ms.
8 Bradford or other intervenors -
9 DR. LITTLE:
Mr. Gray had some questions which the 10 witness could not answer dealing with milk contamination, 11 also.
12 MS. STRAUBEs Yes.
13 DR. LITTLE:
So I presume he will be here in the 14 morning, Mt. Tourte11otte.
You might let him know so he 15 will be prepared.
16 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Maybe we had better start a 17 little bit earlier tomorrow if he cannot be here past l
l 18 quarter of ten.
Shall we start at 8:30?
It would be 19 pointless to have him here at a fixed time if he cannot be 20 completed.
Can he be here as early as 8:30?
21 MS. STRAUBE I hope so.
We have five minutes 22 left to call him and ask.
I am sure that will be fine.
23 They come in a.t 8:00.
24 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Do you want to check on that?
25 MS. STRAUBE Yes, we will check on it.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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CHAIRHAN SMITH:
Then the argument on the ANGRY 2 motion for witnesses, and then what?
Peterson?
3 NR. ZAHLER:
Peterson.
And then I understood 4 we're going to have some HP witnesses by the staff, but that 5 is not my bailiwick.
6 HR. BLAKEs Mr. Smith, in the management area for 7 tomorrow, I had anticipated some staff witnesses to report S in the health physics area.
I now would anticipate a staff 9 witness to respond to Mrs. Aamodt's questions, if I can get 10 a hold of him yet this afternoon.
And I would expect Mr.
11 Newton to sponsor the table and stand cross examination on 12 that table.
I think in the management area, those are what 13 I had anticipated for tomorrow, and to the best of my
~
14 knowledge, that is all we have remaining.
1 1
15 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Whose witness?
Crocker?
1 16 HR. TOURTELLOTTE:
Yes, that is staff's witness, 17 and he will be here, I understand, by noon tomorrow, as will l
18 our witnesses on heath physics.
19 CHAIRHAN SMITHS What is Crocker on?
20 HR. TOURTELLOTTE:
Crocker will be on the answers v
21 to the questions which were posed by Mrs. Aanodt, and I 22 think it is Keinig and --
1 23 MR. BLAKE:
And I believe Nealy.
24 MR. TOURTELLOTTE:
Nealy, yes, on health physics.
25 CHAIBHAN SMITH:
Then, if there is time we will i
i l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
l 20,356 1 have your man on the table; Newton.
2 Okay, we have six items, then, for tomorrow.
That 3 covers all the items I had noted.
Shall we put down to i
4 discuss the ANGRY Exhibit 1 when Ms. Bradford is here?
Will 5 you be here tomorrow?
6 HS. l0UISE BR ADFORDa Yes.
7 MRS. AAMODTa Mr. Smith, since others will be 8 objecting to the Supplements 2 and 3 at a later date do you 9 think there will be any overlap in those areas, so that Mr.
10 Crocker, for instance, would be a witness in those areas?
I 11 know Hs. White has interest in training; I think 12 particularly in some areas rather than others.
But will 13 this be duplicative in calling maybe Mr. Crocker a second 14 time?
I would not.know that.
I as just asking the question.
15 CHAIRHAN SHITHa I guess that is possible, but 16 they are willing to risk it.
You are the only one that has 17 this particular subject matter.
18 HRS. AAMODTa I just thought perhaps we never 19 aight not get to Mr. Crocker tomorrow.
The list looks 20 rather long.
21 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
I have his down as the fourth 22 item of business, with Newton last and most likely to be 23 squeezed off at the end, and Keinig and Nealy after him, so 24 I think the chances of getting to Crocker are probably very 25 good.
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HRS. AAMODTs All right.
2 (Board conferring.)
CHAIRMAN SHITHa That is a reasonable schedule'.
3 l
t 4. If we make it, fine.
If we don't, we won't.
Now, the only l
5 thing we have remaining now is to get the -- find out if we 6 can begin at 8:30.
l 7
MS. STRAUBEa There is no problem.
i I
8 CHAIREAN SMITH:
All right.
So we will -- if 9 there is no further business, we will adjourn until 8:30
{
10 tomorrow morning.
11 Oh, now, do the intervenors present wish to have a l
12 discussion of proposed findings?. What is expected, what is I
13 required, any questions you have.
We will give Ms. Bradford i
14 an opportunity to ca tch up.
1 15 HRS. AAHODTa Mr. Smith, were we to bring all-of l
18 the open issues that we felt?
17 CHAIBMAN SHITH You have more?
18 HRS. AAMODT:
Just a couple of -
19 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Okay, this is a good time to do 20 it.
That was sense today.
It was centered at.:und the fact t
21 documents filed, but that was one of the reasons why I l
22 wanted all of the intervenors present today; is for them to i
23 raise now the oL.en issues that they believe have to be 24 addressed.
25 MRS. AAMODT:
That is what I understood.
The area ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASMNGioN. O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,358 1 of how meat is tested, and vegetables -- well, we had 2 vegetation, vegetables by Mr. Corbin, but how meat is 3 tested.
There has been no witness from the state on that.
4 MR. TROEBRIDGEs May I recall Mr. Zahler?
I had 5 no idea we were going to get into this.
Here he is.
8 CHAIRMkN. SMITHS Okay.
You're going to have a 7 milk witness but not a meat witness.
Mrs. Aamodt is 8 pointing out that you are going t have a witness on the 9 testng of milk but not the testing of meat.
10 MS. STRAUBE:
That is true.
11 MRS. AAMODTa I would like both because noting 12 some authorities' concern over the ingestion pathway through 13 seat, I feel that is a reason that I am par ticula rly 14 interested.
15 CHAIRMAN SMITH 4 Did you submit interrogatories on 18 this subject?
17 MRS. AAMODT4 No, but I feel the last contention
~
I l
18 l
19 CHAIRMAN SMITH Evacuation contention?
20 MRS. AAMODTs Has something to do with the 21 usefulness of a product that, you know, whether it can be 22 used or not, even af ter it has been irradia ted.
23 MS. STRAUBEa Chairman Smith, I went back to read 24 the record on meat because I had a conversation with Mrs.
25 Aamod t this morning about it, and wha t Mr. Corbin 's response l
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 i
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1 1 was, Pennsylvania does not deal with meat essentially.
It l
2 is the U.S. Departm ent of Agriculture.
l 3
CHAIRMAN SHITHs That is correct.
4 HRS. AAHODTa So we have no way to get anything on 1
5 the -record on that.
Whether seat products would be -
6 CHAIRMAN SEITH.
I am not aware of it -- the Board 7 on its own is not inclined to bring a USDA witness in at 8 this late date.
I think you are specifying your concern 9 quite late in the hearing.
10 We had ruled before that it was up to the 11 Commonwealth whether they bring anybody in, and they elected 12 to bring somebody in on milk, and that is it.
1 13 HRS. AAMODTs Well, another concern is about the 14 description of the area around Three Mile Island in terms of 15 people and farms.
l i
16 CHAIRMAN SMITHa All righ t, no w, wait a risute.
I 17 Before we go on, -
18 (Board conferring.)
19 All right then.
To the extent that your remarks 20 are a request to the Board to require production of a 21 witness on meat inspection, it is denied.
So you can go on 22 with your next point.
23 MBS. AAMODTa Mr. Smi th, we have maps of the 24 physical area around the Three Hile Island plant, but we 25 have no description of the numbers of people or numbers of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRG6NIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 f arms, numbers of children, in the ten or fif ty-mile arias, 2 and I did request this information during discovery, and-the 3 statistician said he did not have that information at that 4 time.
And I wondered whether that information had been 5 worked up since that time, since we are interested in ten 6 and fifty-mile areas around THI.
7 CHAIEHAN SNITHs Some of the maps have this 8 information.
I am looking at one of them right now that has 9 the population density within the 50-mile radius area, and I
10 there is a comparable map for the 20-mile radius, and I l
11 believe that there is one for the ten.
12 MRS. AAHODT Are these part of the record, Mr.
(
13 Smith, and can be cited?
14 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
Yes.
15 MRS. AAMODTs All right, then I withdra w my --
s 16 CHAIRNAN SMITH:
The land use is on one of them, 17 too.
That is why we arranged for those.
18 HBS. AAMODTs There is a land use, not numbers of l
19 farms.
I do not imagine, though, that would not be worked 20 up.
21 CHAIRMAN SMITHS No.
22 MRS. AAHODTa I withdraw that suggesti, n or motion 23 or whatever it was.
24 DR. LITTLE:
It would be worth your time to take a 25 look at it because it is divided down into kinds of farms l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 I
I 20,361 1 and operations, as a matter of fact and plotted out, ank 2 gives a representation of how much area is covered by each I
3 type-of activity.
i l
4 HRS. AAMODT Do you know what exhibit number that 5 would be, Dr. Little?
6 HR. ZAHLER:
It is Board Physical Exhibit B.
7 NRS. AAMODTs I requested some information from
(.
- 8. the NBC on a site alert, an alert at Salem, and I understood 1
9 that that would be forthcoming.
And I am making a motion 10 tha ve look at that in this hearing in regard to the i
11 adequacy of NRC's classification system of emergencies.
12 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
I think we already ruled on 13 that.
As I recall, Mr. Cutchin, as a ma.tter of coopera tion, 14 had agreed to provide it, but I thought we had already had 15 it as a motion and we had ruled that we would not require 16 it.
But I am not sure.
17 HRS. AA3ODT I had not understood that it was 18 ruled one way or the other.
19 CHAIRHAN SMITH Mr. Gray had agreed to produce it 20 as a matter of accommodation, but we had already ruled that 21 we would not require an inquiry into that, 'or the other two 22 incidents to which you referred.
23 3RS. AAHODTs I did not interpret that as that.
24 I'm sorry.
25 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Well, if we had not, we do so now.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
l 20,362 1
HRS. AA50DT:
All right.
On information to the 2 public, the licensee's counsel off ered -
3 CHAIRHAN SMITHS Excuse me.
However, Mrs. Aamodt, 4 there is a matter in which you do have an interest.
I think 5 I shoal'd advise you if Mr. Gray did promise the information 6 and you relied upon it to your detriment and it was as a 7 part of our process, I think we should bring it to Mr.
8 Gray's attention that the report should be made available to 9 you.
So I-do think we have an involvement to that extent.
10 But I think you should be reminded that that is 11 due you.
Perhaps it has not.been prepared yet.
12 (Board conferring.)
13 Er. Brenner reminds me, he said he would provide 14 it if and when one is prepared.
All righ t, would you go on 15 to your next ites, please.
16 HRS. AAMODT:
Yes.
The licensee offered their 17 information on their policy on news releases to the public 18 on 14,519 in the transcript, and they -- I am not really 19 satisfied without a witness to explain exactly what is meant 20 by this and to testify that this is a true statement.
And I 21 understand that there is a gentleman named Iake Barrett who 22 is presently meeting with various members of the public in 23 this area.
And I wondered whether it would be possible to 24 have Mr. Barrett support that this is the policy that he 25 uses in giving information.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGIN!A AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,363 1
CHAIRMAN SMITHS Mr. Barrett is an employee of t's 2'NBC.
3 HRS. AAHODTs Mr. Barrett is an employee of'the 4 NBC?
5 CHAIRHAN SMITH:
I believe he is.
8 HRS. AAHODTs I stand corrected on that.
1 7
CHAIRHAN SHITH He is the project manager, I 8 believe, up there at THI-2.
9 HR. TOURTELLOTTE:
At the Island.
10 CHAIBHAN SHITHz At the Island.
11 HR. TOURTELI OTTE:
He was as of last Friday, 12 that's the best I know.
13 CHAIRHAN SMITHa So I do not know if -- well, you 14 say in view of that, you withdraw your request?
15 HRS. AAHODTs No, I withdraw my suggestion of Mr.
18 Barrett, but I wonder if the licensee has a public relations 17 person at THI, whether someone like that could clarify --
18 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
That was 6000 transcript pages 19 ago, and I wonder why you ask this -- supposedly, last week 20 at the main body of the hearings -- why you valt until nov 21 to raise it.
Did it just occur to you?
There is no pendit.g 22 request.
23 HRS. AAMODTs I attempted to satisf y myself in 24 this regard by going to the newspapers, and they suggested 25 that I call the public relations person at THI which I did, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,364 1 and I explained who I was and he said that he would not be 2 able to talk with me.
And I understood that, so I did 3 attempt to get this information myself but was not able to.
4
- 58. ZAHLER4 Er. Chairman, I do not have the
- 5 ^ transcript in front of me, but my recollection is that Mr.
8 Aamod t was present that day and the Board specifically 7 inquired whether the representation of. counsel with respect 8 to'this matter was satisfactory.
He indica ted in the 9 affirmative.
10 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Do you have the transcript page, 11 Hrs. Aamodt?
12 HRS. AAHODTs Yes, I.do.
I see that he did accept 13 that.
14 CHAIHHAN SHITH Okay.
That is important 15 information in this consideration.
18 HHS. AAHODT I think he accepted rather without 17 looking too closely, but --
l 18 CHAIRHAN SHITHs Well, I looked.
That was in j
f
(
19 response to my question to him, did he accept counsel's l
20 re presen tation.
21 HR. ZAHLER That is ay recollection.
I'm getting 22 the transcript.
23 HRS. AAHODT I have it here.
It says, do you 24 accept that as a stipulation, the company policy, and he 25 said yes, sir, I will do that.
ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
l 20,365 1
CHAIRMAN SMITH:
That was a question from me to 2 Nr. Aamodt?
3 HRS. AAMODTs Yes.
4 CHAIREAN SMITH Mrs. Aamodt?
l 5
ERS. AAHODT Yes, that is right.
6' CHAIRMAN SMITHS That request is denied on that 7 account.
8 MRS. AAMODTs Even though he is not represented by 9 counsel?
(
10 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Yes.
Yes, ma'am, even though.
l 11 MRS. AAMODTs I feel as though sometimes i
l 12 intervenors are -- feel pushed to do things that are l
13 acceptable even though they do not --
l 14 CHAIRMAN SEITH My conscience is clear on it, so l
15 let 's move on to the next item.
16 HRS. AAHODTs The, area of attitude of operators l
l 17 was adstressed to a considerable extent in the studies that 18 preceded this hearing; studies of the THI 2 accident.
And I 19 am wondering where this has really been adequately addressed
(
l 20 in the record.
I at one point req ue sted that Mr. Denten l
r 21 come and that was denied.
I understood because of very 22 reasons, that he was busy.
But I as wondering whether I 23 f elt somewhat backed down on that at the time, thinking that 24 I had made a very elaborate and foolish request.
And I am l
25 concerned that this area has not been addressed by anyone ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,366 1 who has expertise in that area.
2 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
I did nct hear the first 3 sentence, the first two sentences.
What is the basic 4 subject matter?
5 HBS. AAHODTs I as concerned about the attitude of 1
..6 operators, and this was a concern of a number of studies
} prior to th( hearing.
.8 CHAIBHAN SMITH:
Hindset?
9 HBS. AAHODTs No, not mindset.
10 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Mr. Denton goes out and he tells 11 the people -- he gives them a talk, and you wanted him to 12 come and testify?
13 NBS. AAHODT Yes.
You made it quite clear that I 14 had made a flamboyant request, and I felt rather backed down l
15 at the time, and not Pecause I did not feel the issue was 16 important, but because I felt I had perhaps pursued it in 17 the wrong direction.
And I could not think of any other way 18 to pursue it at that time.
19 But it seems that this is perhaps lacking in'the 20 record, the attitude of operators.
We had no one really to 21 support that that has changed.
22 CHAIRMAN SHITHs The testimony was that Mr. Denton 23 vent to North Ana and talked the opera tors about having an 24 attitude, a certain attitude, and you wanted him to come and 25 repeat tha t testimony.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY aNC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,367 l
1 HRS. AAMODTs I am not requesting that now, Mr.
2 Smith.
I said I had dropped the whole issue because I felt i
f 3 that I had made perhaps a too-vild a request, and so -- bot i
4 I still feel it is an important issue, and I raised it and I 5 do not know whether it has been raised in any other place in i
l 6 the hearing.
I am r.nt aware of that.
l 7
CHAIRMAN SMITHS What is your particular request 6~now?
9 MRS. AAHODTs 'That the NBC produce a witness to l
10 establish whether indeed they are satisfied.
I do not see 11 it address in their supplement, whether they are satisfied 12 that the operators' attitudes are such as to insure the 13 safety of the plant; safe operation of the plant.
14 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Would you like to do that, Mr.
15 Tourte11otte?
16 MR. TOURTELLCTTE:
I do not really see what 17 bearing it has on any issue that is before the Board.
And I 18 do not really see that it is anything that has not been 19 covered by the other testimony in the area.
I do not really 20 know what evidence or what information could be brought to l
21 the Board on the o ttitude of operators that would be of any i
l 22 significant value.
And consequently, I do not know how to 23 address this or how I would go about getting some witness l.
24 that would fulfill a requirement that I do not understand, l
25 CHAIRHAN SEITH:
We do not know of any Lasis on l
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,368 1 which we could require the staff to do it.
Your request 2 certainly is not titely.
We do not feel that you are 3 intimidated or repressed in any way from pursuing any issue 4 that had a relationship to the hearing, and you have not
.5-demonstrated any good cause for bringing it up at this very 6 -late date that I can identify.
7 HRS. AAMODTa Well, I sort of understood that 8 there would be some time that we would have to bring -- I 9 thought there would be a day like today, and that, you know, 10 it is difficult to interject in a hearing that is going 11 forward various items as they come to mind.
12 But, Mr. Smith, it was for exactly that reason I I
13 also could not think of a reason other than Mr. Denton that 14 I mentioned Mr. Denton, and -- but it is an issue that I did 15 not luvent.
It was in the studies that were sent to us of l
18 the THI 2 accident.
It was considered a very important 17 issue.
18 CHAIRHAN SMITH Is it one of your contentions?
l l
19 HRS. AANODT It would be under the training and 20 testing and performance contention.
Contention No. 2.
And 21 the performance in the control room of the operators.
What 22 their a ttitude would be.
23 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
The very same contention that 24 ve've ruled many times now is a training contention.
Your 25 request is not timely, Mrs. Aanodt, it is overruled, if in ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
I 20,369 1 fact it is relevant, which we do not have to reach.
If it, 2 in fact, is relevant, it is doubtful whether it is relevant 3 to your contention.
But we do not reach that issue because f the request is not timely.
(
5 Agaih, this is the last week that we have l
6 scheduled f or hearings.
We are open to the possibility of 7 clean-up items but this is the very end.
8 HRS. AAEODTa Is there any way to request of the 9 NRC that'-- or any other party in the hearing, to know where l
10 this issue is addressed in the record, so that I can use it.
11 in findings?
Maybe I should ask that in your discussion of 12 how we proceed with findings; how wo would go about finding l
13 where this issue of attitude would be addressed.
14 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
We will make that a separate 15 discussion, but your request about this particular issue I
(
16 have no help for you.
Maybe another Board member, another 17 party does.
Hr. Blake?
18 MR. BLAKE4 The question of cperator attitudes and 19 whether or not there was any training given to operators to 20 aske them aware of this -- and this As what I understood 21 Mrs. Aamodt 's position to be -- an awarenes's of the l
22 importance, the significance, of what they do as licensed l
l 23 operators, she did indeed explore throrgh cross examination l
l 24 of our vitnesses.
And my recollection is -- and NRC l
l 25 witnesses that were here as well, so as f ar as she is
(
1 A;.DERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024(202) 554-2345 l
20,370 1 looking for record information on whether or not any 2 training was done, she can look to the answers that were 3 given in the course of her examination of witnesses.
4 Dr. Long and -- I do not recall now who, but I 5 know Dr. Long responded to some questions in this area.
I 6
DR. LITTLE:
I believe that people from BETA i
l 7 addressed it in general; the general concept a couple of 8 times, when they were here as well.
l l
9 NHS. AAMODT I could not hear that.
10 DR. LITTLE:
I believe that the witnesses f rom 11 BETA Corporation addressed this to some extent on two l
12 occasions, if I am not mistaken.
13 HRS. AANODT I think I bring it up here because 14 of the. supplements 2 and 3 of the Restarc, the SER that NRC 15 appears to have dropped this, whereas, it was an area of 16 interest in their earlier studies and documents.
17 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Mrs. Aamodt, we did schedule this 1
18 as the day for raising what was regarded as open items, and 19 principally, the late-filed staff papers.
You can make a i
20 motion at any time, but I guess this is not what we had in r
21 mind today.
'fou can make a motion to reopen the record for 22 additional evidence.
23 But we had rea111 scheduled this for cleaning up 24 items where there had been an understanding that there s.ould 25 be additional evidence or where new things have come up.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,371 1 Fow, if your concern is what you do about areas where you 2 think the record is inadequate, well,'you can deal with that 3 in your proposed findings.
I mean, you can argue and show 4 to the record where you feel that the licensee has not made 5 his case or the staff has not made the proper review.
Is 6 that helpful to you?
7 HRS. AAMODTs That is helpful, Mr. Smith.
8 CHAIRMAN SHITHa That is your prerogative.
9
~
HRS. AAMODT That is helpful.
And then the other 10 area I had was where you ruled that fatigue could not be 11 used in findings, I believe, in my Contention 2 on 12 training.
I do not know whether I have that here or not.
13 The testimony relating to operator fatigue is therefore 14 stricken, and I do not know quite how to interpret that in 15 doing findings on that contention.
16 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
It is not in evidence; if you 17 cite that in evidence in your proposed findings, it will be l
18 ina ppropriate and we will not make a finding based upon that 19 paragraph or those pages that we strack.
20 MRS. AAMODT How about overtime or shift location 21 considerations?
I 22 CHAIRMAN SMITHS I do not remember what was barred 23 from your testimony, but whatever it was, we stated it on 24 the record and that is not available to you for proposed 25 findings.
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, W VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,372 1
MRS. AA50DTs That part of my testimony.
DutIHr.
2 Smith, I an asking about other references, for instance, 3 within the record to overtime, to shift rotations and those 4 types of things.
Can I use those references other pisces in
.S the record or even within the cross-questioning of witnesses 8 that I did?
l 7
CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Yes.
But I feel that there is an 8 opportunity here for failure of communication.
Not going 9 from my memory of what the record is, anything that is in 10 evidence can be cited, even if it is developed on cross 11 examination.
Is that your question?
12 MRS. AAMODTs Ch, but the testimony, my own 13 testimony that was relating to operator fatigue, is that 14 what was stricken?
l 15 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
I do not know.
Don't you?
We i
18 discussed it so many times, it was the subject of written 17 actions, it was the subject of arguments, it was the subject 18 of ruling, it was the subject of re-arguments, it was the l
l 19 subject of an admonition not to argue it anymore, and I j
20 would think that you would have a very, very clear memory of 1
21 exactly what part of your testimony is in.and what part is 22 out.
But if you are in doubt, we will go.back.
23 HRS. AAMODTs No, Mr. Smith, that is not what I 24 was asking.
Is that all that was stricken, or is it also l
25 all ansvers, for instance, tha t a witness would give me that i
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASH lNGToN. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l
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20,373 1 related to fatigue?
Are all of those -- ?
2 CHAIRMAN SMITHa Only what was specifical,1y 3 identified as being stricken.
4 HRS. AAMODTa Just what was my testimony, then.
5 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Your question was anything that a related to that would somehow engically get st-icken?
No.
7 Not that.
Now you may propose as findings something that we 8 later ruled was irrelevant.
That does not turn it into 9 relevant evidence, but that does not har you from -- you 10 see, we may have allowed a line of questioning to go along 11 and then later it may occur to one of the parties or to the 12 Boa rd that this was a line of irrelevant questioning and 13 answers, and we so rule as we get to a particular question.
14 It does not mean that all the questions and 15 answers then become stricken because they are irrelevant.
16 But it aeans that if our ruling was correct, it was 17 irrelevant to begin with, while the fact that we allowed 18 questions before the ruling was made does not change that 19 Tuling.
I may have confused you.
20 NHS. AAMODTs No, I understand what you mean now.
v 21 Maybe not every word, but I understand it.
Mr. Smith, there 22 is just one other thing as I was sitting here thinking about 23 'this, and that is, I, of course, rushed to prepare the pages 24 that were distributed today.
In fact, I was working on it 25 just yesterday, and I as wondering whether in all fairness I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345
20,374 1 should be cross questioning on that tomorrow.
2 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
I think it is fair.
3 HRS. AAHODTs You think it is?
4 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Yes.
~2'-
~5' HRS. AAHODrs All right.
~
8 HR. ADLERs Mr. ChairmanY 7
CHAIRHAN SHIIHs It is a rather limited area.
. 8 Now, along with the other parties, we have allowed othar 9 parties to defer because of problems that they alght have to with the SER.
You.have relatively few contentions and your 11 particular objections deal with just a few pages.
It seems 12 to me you should be prepared.
If you are requesting right 13 now a witness, you should be prepared to address those.
14 HRS. AAHODTs All right.
15 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Mr. Adler?
18 HR. ADLERs On that topic, we had identified the 17 identical area of concern covered by Mrs. Aamodt's objection 18 'f or A.
We had determined that for that limited area, we I
19 would not recall the witness; however, since he is going to 20 be here anyway, I would request permission to do a limited 6
21 amount of cross examination.
22 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
I am sorry.
l 23 (Board conferring.)
24 There is no particular leave required for that.
25 You certainly have that opportunity.
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, l
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
~...
20,375 1
HR. ADLERS Thank you, I was just checking.
2 CHAIRNAN SMITH:
All right.
Is that --
3 HRS. AAHODTs I would be very happy for the 4 sta te's help in t!.at because that is one area where I f eel I
.-5 have to do some homework on tonight.
l l
- 6 CHAIREAN SMITH:
Do you have anything further, 7 Ers. Aamodt?
.8 HRS. AAHODT No, that is all.
-9 ER. IAH1ER:
Mr. Chairman, before ve adjourn, I 10 have one further matter.
Ms. Ridgway has brought to my 11 attention thst we have previously marked for identification 12 an Aamodt Exhibit 5.
That document was marked for 13 identification at page 14,704, and page 14,706.
It consists 14 of THI emergency plan procedure number 1004, Revision 1,
15 Section 2, dated 1/16/78.
The status of that is that it has 16 been marked for identification but it has not yet been 17 admitted because Mr. Aamodt was. supposed to provide the l
18 necessary copies to the reporter.
19 In any event, I would request that the letter from 20 Er. Hodge and the attachment to it be marked for 21 identification as Aamodt Exhibit No. 6.
22 (Board conferring.)
23 CHAIRHAN SMITH:
Where was it identified?
24 HR. ZAHLERs Page 14,704 25 CHAIRHAN SEITH:
Where was it described?
I just i
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGANIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,376 1 see a four-page document.
2 HR. ZAHLER:
Page 14,702.
Mr. Aamodt 's initial 3 statement.j 4
CHAIRHAN SMITHa All right, that seems to be the 5 case.
6 HBS. AAHODTa Mr. Smith, I do not have any idea l
7 what is going on.
I do not have a transcript in front of me.
8 CHAIRHAN SHITHa Well, the Humane Society letter 9 and the attachment'from the FEHA report.
I stated 10 incorrectly that it would be Aamodt's Exhibit 5.
Ms.
11 Ridgway is pointing out that another document had already 12 been identified as Aamodt Exhibit 5s it was a four-page 13 document that Mr. Aamodt was to have produced in a better 14 form, and that has not happened.
I 15 HHS. AAHODT What document is that, Hr. Smith?
16 Do you know?
17 CHAIBHAN SHITH:
It is described on page 14,702, 18 it was excerpts from the emergency plan in effect at the 19 time of the Unit 2 accident, particularly as it related to 20 the possible constraints and the discretionary judgments and i
l 21 actions of the shift supervisor.
He did not have enough 22 copies.
23 HRS. AAHODT:
Could I take a copy of that page 24 home, and perhaps I can get that cleared up.
25 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
All right, we will give you a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
20,377 1 copy of that sheet.
But at any rate, the Humane Society 2 letter with the attac'hzents is Aamodt Exhibit 6.
3 (The document referred to was 4
marked for idehtification as 5
Aamodt Exhibit 6 for 6 -
iden tifica tion. )
7 (Board conferring.)
8 On page 14,706 ve ruled that it was not received 9 into evidence until copies could be presented.
Okay.
10 Anything further?
11 HRS. AAHODTs Mr. Smith, I just have one probles, 12 and I do not even know how to express it, and that is in I
13 0737, and I hate to bring it up again, but I understand it 14 is in the record in relation to maintenance, and that is 15 shift manning.
Will the staff be addressing the adequacy cf 16 those hours that are proposed on those pages in 0737?
Or 17 are these simply accepted for THI 17 18 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
Unless something happens to bring 19 into question any of the findings by the staff in those 20 documents and causes a witness to be produced or something 21 else, in confrontation or in rebuttal to those findings, 22 they will be received in evidence and will be appropriate 23 subject natter for proposed findings.
24 NRS. AAE0DTa Can this be questioned, these ".vo l
25 pages be questioned in relationship to the -- what appears ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C.20024 (202) 554-2345
20,378 1 to be the lack of provision for overtime re strictions ?
2 CHAIREAN SEITH:
Yes.
3 ERS. AA!ODTs Can I do that tomorrow?
Would that 4 be an appropriate thing of Hr. Crocker?
5 CHAIRMAN SHITHs Why don 't we give you until Bay 6 1st so you can do it in writing, just the like other 7 parties, if you wish.
Or if you wish, to do it tomorrow and 8 rtate your objections, if you want to examine Mr. Crocker on 9
that tomorrow, that might be a good idea.
He is going to be to present.
That is fine, that would be very efficient, I 11 think.
l 12 HBS. AAHODT I wanted to give warning of that l
l 13 anyway, that I would like to do that.
14 ER. TROWBRIDGEs I'was getting disturbed about the 15 May 1.
If you will recall, we are scheduled to do proposed 16 findings on management on May 15, and this is the particular 17 reason for having today's session on management issues 18 covered to do everything we could today.
l l
19 CHAIBEAN SNITHa I as sorry, th e very last 20 sentence?
l 21 5H. TPOWERIDGEs I am sorry.
We were anxious to 22 have today's session on management issues covered, 23 e ve rything that could be covered, toda y.
24 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
Of course.
The point was to 25 raise problems today, and she has raised a problem and has ALDERSoN REPcRTING COMPANY,INC.
i l
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W, WASHING TON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l
I 1
20,379 1 offered a solution, I think, and that is, examine the 2 witness tomorrow.
3 MR. THOWBBIDGE:
I'm sorry, we are no longer 4_ talking about Ear 1, we are talking about doing it tomorrow, 5 so that resolves the problem.
6 CHAIRHAN SHITHs Yes.
l l
7 HE. BLAKE Mr. Smith, as I understood Mrs.
8 Aamodt, she now believes that she has an approval from the l
9 Board to question about two pages, and I believe the two 10 pages she is talking about are pages out of 0737 and not 11 pages in the two supplements which were the subject of the l
l 12 discussion.
I may be incorrect in that.
I do not 13 understand why it would be timely.
14 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
When was the supplement filed?
15 HR. BLAKEs The supplements I am not questioning, 16 and if she is tying it to new information in the I
17 cupplements, that is what I understood today's discussion to 18 have been.
But what she was looking at was 0737 itself and 19 asking whether or not tomorrow-she could ask questions on l
20 two pages in 0737.
I may be wrong.
21 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Very good point.
Yes, Mrs.
22 Aamodt, were you referring to the 0737 suppler.ent?
23 5BS. AA50DT:
Yes, I was.
24 CHAIRHAN SMITH 4 The supplement?
25 5H5. AA50DTs 0737.
I do not have a supplement to l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
-....m
20,380 1 0737.
2 NR. BLAKE I think she was just looking at 0737 3 and asking about a couple of pages in it.
Is that righ t, 4 Hrs. Aamodt?
5-NHS. AAHODTa Yes.
I do not have a supplement to 6 0737.
Is there one?
7 MB. BLAKEs Not that I as aware of.
8 CHAIENAN SHITH:
Well, today we had scheduled for 9 discussion the needs of the litigators that parties in this 10 proceeding rait;! by various lete-filed documents filed by 11 the staff last week and the week before.
When you referred 12 to 0737, I thought you vere referring to the supplement.
13 (Board conferring.)
14 It is Staff Exhibit 12 l
l 15 (Board conferrinc.)
l l
16 Staff Exhibit 12 was dated April 21.
It was 17 provided last week and received in evidence last week, and
[
l 18 it is the Safety Evaluation Report for items contained in 19 Enclosure-1 to NUBEG-0737, outside the scope of the 20 Cosaission's order of. August 9 and March 6, 19o0.
And you, t
21 as I understand, wish now to go into items which are in the 22 original 0737, which was served in this case last November.
23 Unless they are covered in the report on the 24 enclosure 1 we would probably rule that it is not timely 25 that you should inquire into that.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) $$4 2345
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MRS. AAMODTs Will they be considered anyplace in 2 the -
3 CHAIRHAN SHITH:
I do not understand.
4 NHS. AANODT4 Well, will those particular pages in 5 0737 be considered anyplace in this hearing ?
8 BR. TOUBTELLOTTEa Mr. Chairman, they already have i
7 been.
We had witnesses to sponsor 0737, and the appropriate 8 time to cross examine them was at the time that they
~9 appekred.
And if we were to take a position on it, why, we 10 would have to take the position that Ps. Aamodt is way out 11 of time, and I am basing this statement on her earlier
[
l 12 representation that what she is really looking at is the 1 0737 document itself'and not any supplement.
14 HRS. AAMODTs I was looking at something that came 15 on April 21, but I did not see those pages addressed in it, 18 and wondered whether that would come later or whether it was 17 just omitted and would not come up again.
18 ER. TOURTELLOTTE:
As I understand the question l
19 now, it is that there is something in 0737 which Ms. Aamodt 20 would like to see addressed further but was not addressed 21 further in the supplement.
And, of course,' the supplement l
22 is not designed to address every item that was addressed in l
23 the original document, but only primarily. to close out the 24 items that were left open to some extent.
l 25 Consequently, the answc: to her question is no, 1
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024(202) 554 2345
l 20,382 1 they will not be addressed any further than they were in the 2 original document.
And once again, the staff would have to 3 take the position that Es. Aamodt missed her attempt or l
l 4 opportunity to cross examine on the issue which she did not i
5 cross examine at the time it was introduced.
6 HRS. AAHODTa I was looking at the April 22, 1981 l
7 filing of NRC, and finding those pages omitted from that.
8 (Board conferring.)
9 CHAIRHAN SMITHS Mrs. Aamodt, it was not an open 10 item when presented when defended by the staff.
It is 11 not covered in the supplement, and so you will not be given 12 a.n opportunity to reopen the record on that sub-issue.
13 MRS. AAMODTs All right.
Mr. Smith, there is one 14 other issue and then I will be through, and that is training 15 for mitigating core damage.
I an assuming that Ms. Weiss 16 vill be objecting probably in this area or questioning in 17 this area.
Can I reserve that until --
18 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
If you have interest in that area
(
19 and you think it coincides with Ms. Weiss' interest, I 20 recommend that you contact her.
But we will allow you to
' we will give you the same opportunity we gave 21 reserve 22 others, and that is, defer until May 1 an opportunity to 23 address your needs there.
But if you have reason to believe 24 that it is going to be pursued by another intervenor, I 25 think that your observation is probably pretty good.
It is l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,383 1 your responsibility to coordinate.
2 HRS. AAHODTs All right, I will try to do that, 3 Nr. Smith.
4 CHAIRHAN SMITHS Anything further?
5 MS. l0UISE BRADFORDs Mr. Smith?
6 CHAIRMAN SMITHS Are you completed, Mrs. Aamodt?
7 HHS. AAMODTs Yes, I an.
Thank you, Mr. Smith.
8 CHAIRNAN SMITHS Okay, Ms. Bradford.
9
- 55. l0UISE BRADFORDs I just have a few general 10 questions about findings.
First of all, I noticed in the 11 samples that you gave us to review that there were fairly 12 extensive background summaries, and I was wondering if that 13 was one of the things that we would have to do as part of 14 our findings.
15 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
No, you may do it cut rarely do I 16 see a pro se intervenor go to that trouble.
Those findings 17 have to be made, whether you make them or not, and we have 18 requested the licensee and the staff to cooperate on 19 background and procedural findings, and circulate them to 20 the intervenors to see if there is anything objectionable in 5
21 them.
22 I think that should probably serve your purposes, 23 but you will not be regarded as being in def ault if you do 24 not submit findings of the background type in those 25 findings.
But on the other hand, if there is something ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASPS'GTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
1 20,384 1 particularly you want found in that catagory, you have to j
2 propose it.
Otherwise, it may not be found.
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3 NS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
Right.
Another question I 4.have is in reading through the transcript I find that 5 sometimes a thread of something will encompass several l
d pages, so thct a question is asked and it is not fully 7 answered for maybe two or three pages.
So can I cite 8 general, you know, those general pages rather than lines of 9 the transcripts?
10 CH' AIRMAN SHITH:
A question is asked but the 11 answer does not come for several pages, or the answer takes t
12 several pages?
13 MS. LOUISE BRADFOBD The answer takes several 14 pages.
15 CHAIRMAN SMITHS The ordinary way is to cite all l
16 of the pages from the question to the conclusion of the l
17 answer, and you would do it in this fashion.
I do not have 18 the sample that we -- the proposed form that we distributed 19 last week.
But normally, you repeat the last two letters of l
20 a citation, the last two page numbers.
For example, 976-86 1
21 would be a citation to 976 through 986.
That is the l
22 appropriate way to straddle the question and the answer.
l 23 MS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
Okay.
There are some Board 24 comments --
25 CHAIBMAN SMITHS If the answer is interrupted by I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
20,385 1 extraneous matter, not just an objection or an aside or 2 something like that, but if there is a substantial 3 interruption between the question and the answer, say the 4 question starts, then the answer -- then a substantial l
5 interruption, then the answer comes backs well, make two 6 findings.' I mean, two -itations.
1
(
7 ES. LOUISE BRAD 70BDs Okay.
The other question I 8 have is quotations, if I'm making quotations, can I make 9 quotations also of Board comments, or only of witness'?
l 10 CHAIBHAN SHITNs Oh no, now Board comments may not 11 be useful as a findig of fact, but it can explain an answer, i
12 it can explain a ruling, it can explain many things.
So, 13 yes, I can see many times you want to quote the Board.
But 14 not as evidence unless we specifically -- which I cannot 15 recall in this proceeding -- rule that an iten has been 16 decided.
And I do not thing that we have done that.
I l
17 think that, for example, this exchange this afternoon when I 18 explained the legal significance of Mr. Trowbridge's offer 19 to make a party admission might be, and his acquiescence to 20 that or his agreement with that, that would be a perfectly 21 appropriate thing to cite if it were in dcubt what the Board 22 said, and what counsel said.
23 (Board conferring.)
24 HS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
One last th ing.
l 25 CHAIBMAN SMITH:
Yes.
If, for example, there is a l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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20,386
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1 very large block of pages of a particular item o' testimony, 2 a question and a very long answer, some interruptions, some 3 digressions and everything, and you want to cite a very 4 large block, you might do it this way.
Transcript 1200-25,
- 5. see especially 1215, where you ; ant to direct particular
.6 attention to the point that you are trying to make.
7 MS. LOUISE BRADFORD:
Okay, thank you.
And my 8 last question is I had asked Mrs. Moran f or a list of 9 cxhibits.
I really feel hampered by coming in so late and 10 not knowing what exhibits have been made available.
I'm not 11 sure if we have everything available.
12 CHAIRMAN SMITH:
.I wonder if you have received --
13 did you receive our memorandum and order last week on the 14 uniform method of proposed findings and citations?
15 MS. LOUISE BRADF0BDs It might hare gone to the 16 office and I have not --
17 CHAIRMAN SMITHS You will want to read that.
That 18 is going to answer a lot of questions.
It is a two-part 19 memorandum.
We will make sure yc.u have a copy of it.
One 20 part does repeat the fact that ;oa must file proposed I
21 findings; otherwise you must suffer the possibility that we 22 will find you in default.
23 The other adopts a recommendation from Mr.
l 24 Trowbridge as to a uniforn method of citation.
And it is j
i 25 going to be very useful to you.
It can save you a lot of ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l
20,387 1 vriting and vill explain a lot to you on how to cite to'the 2 record.
But at the end of that memorandum, we reported that 3 Er. Trowbridge has offered to the parties their computerized 4 list of exhibits and the prepared testimony which I think 5 would be helpful pretty soon because some of the people are l
6 actively --
l 7
HR. ADLT.'s I believe the offer -
8 (Discussion off the record.)
9 CHAIRMAN SEITH:
When do you think.would be an to appropria'te time to do that, Hr. Trowbridge?
11 ER. TROWBRIDGE:
Mr. Chairman, we vill try to do 12 this next week.
As your memorandum said, it would be after l
13 the close or adjournment of the current session.
We would 14 regard this as an adjournment and get out everything that we 15 have to date.
t l
l 16 CHAIRMAN SMITHS That answers it.
I did not l
17 recall if it was at the adjournment or actually the close of 18 the record.
The adjournment would probably be -
19 HR. TROWBRIDGE:
The word " adjournment" is in the 20 memorandum and order.
21 CHAIRMAN SMITH Okay.
Have you' received tha t?
22 HS. LOUISE BRADFORDs No, I have not.
23 CHAIRMAN SHITHa I would spend some time studying 24 that.
That is going to be very helpful to you.
25
- 35. LOUISE BRADFORD:
Thank you, Hr. Smith.
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,!NC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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CHAIRHAN SHITHa It is going to save a lot of 2 references, too, writing of references.
All right, anything 3 further?
4 (No response.)
Is there anything further by anybodyY 6
HR. THOWBRIDGEt Cne other ites you mentioned 7 earlier in the day was Supplement No. 1 to the control room 8 design review, the open item on the backup display in core 9 thermocouples data.
He recognize that as an open iten; that 10 describes it better than a dispute.
11 We have been in conversati*on with the staff about 12 it and we recognize the need to inform the Board of the 13 resolution.
14 CHAIRMAN SHITH:
Okay, so what do we do?
15 ER. TROWBRIDGE:
That is all.
I cannot give you a 16 resolution today.
I am just recognizing the fact that we 17 ove you one.
18 CHAIBHAN SMITH:
All right.
Anything further?
19 (No response.)
20 Ah, a short day.
21 (Laughter.)
22 DR. JORDANS Five minutes early.
23 CHAIRMAN SMITH If there is nothing f urther, we 24 vill adjourn until 8:30 tomorrow.
25 (Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m.
the hearing adjourned, to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 ;202) 554-2345
20,389 1 reconvene at a:30 a.m. the next dar, vednesday, April 29, 2 1981 )
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- i 24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSICN e-This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the in the matter of.
METROPOLITAN EDISON COMPANYLTMI UNIT 1)
- Data of Proceeding:
Keri1 ='2 87 r19 81 -
DocktC MUEber:
5-289 (Restart)
Place of Proceeding: narrisburo. Pa.
l were held as herein appears, and. that this is the original. transcripe thereof for the file of the Commission.
I David S.
Parker l
Official Ieporter (Typed.)
m j
(5: 3 E "C?.I 0F RI?C?.5 2) l e
P00RORSK
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