ML19350C334
| ML19350C334 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 03/25/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19350C335 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8103310943 | |
| Download: ML19350C334 (34) | |
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NCCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSICN v qq
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- COMMISSION MEETING f
In the Ma W " of:
DISCUSSION OF POLICY, PLANNING AND PROGRAM GUIDANCE FOR FY 1983-87 l
DATE: March 25, 1981 pAggs.
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Washington, D. C.
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
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4 DISCUSSION OF POLICY, PLANNING AND PROGRAM GUIDANCE 5
FOR FY 1983-87
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Nuclear Regulatory ComrJ.ssion Room 1130, 1717 H Street, N.W.
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8 Washin;; ton, D. C.
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9 Wednesday, March 25, 1981 10 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.
m.,
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11 JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman, presiding.
d 12 BEFORE:
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13 JOSEPH M. HENDRIE,. Chairman l
14 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 2
15 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Commissioner 5
g 16 ALSO PRESENT:
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17 LEONARD BICKWIT, General Counsel 5
!E 18 SAMUEL J. CHILK, Secretary 5
19 EDWARD J. HANRAHAN X
20 GEORGE EYSYMONTT 21
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I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
DIS M N 3
This 1s an unoff* ** = t==2ns*pe of a. =aeci=g of the: C=1:ad Scatas Nuclear Regulatory W *sion hall og March 25, 1981 is -Jaa Commisadan's. officas-a: 1717 E Straec, 3. '4., ~4 ashing:=n, D. C.
The===ed,y was open== puht "- at==d--- and obserracian.
. - This, ~~7e has =ne bene reviewed, car =ne:ad, or edi:ad, and i= may caucais **=aed =*.
The ~ = M?e is i=:andad salaI7 for ganarz.L i=f===aciona.L purposes.
As providad.by 10 CII.9.103, 1: is ser pa== of e
d formaI. or infazza.L record of d d =1m. of als ma::ars disc =ssed.
- e= =d -- of opdad m is -dis==ansc=1pc da noe sacassa=117 raf2. ace "d-='_ datarminations or h=T d ad=.
No p?==dd ! or ochar page= may be. filad v1=h. che Commissics i= any preened 1=g as -da.
.;asu1= of or add =assed. en any scaramane or a..-; con-=d-M
- ==dm azcape as the Commissian :::ay a =h ri u o za.
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EESE5EE1E11 2
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If the Commission could come to
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3 order this morning to continue our discussion of policy, planning 4
and program guidance for times in the future.
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Now, last time we were working through an objection b
6 which had left hand pages and right hand pages.
We were a piece Rg 7
of the way through that.
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8 MR. HANRAHAN:
We had finished the policy section, and d
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had come to Roman numeral III, planning guidance.
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10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Right.
Now, we have also had a El 11 revised version sent around.
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12 MR. HANRAHAN:
That is up to Sections I and II, which 5
13 is as far as we had gone the last two times, what has been l
14 revis ed, and then some matters which were left over in those 2
15 discussions.
g 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
So, this is stuff passed.
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17 MR. HANRAHAN:
And there was a draft of a section by I
E 18 the General Counsel, as he had promised to do, on the sunshine 5
19 aspects.
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20 We also have a note from Commissioner Bradford in 21 which he has reviewed or gone through the document a good way 22 through section III, which is, in.a sense, his proxy.
I 23 l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
We need, then, to see whether 24 people like the General Counsel's section 8.1 or prefer the 25 present one, and then we can get on to section III.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
3 I
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I just received it.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I just got it, too.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You will like 8.1.
I suggest we 4
go ahead.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is a replacement for which g
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6 section?
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7 MR. BICKWIT:
For 8.1 in the revised memo, 8.1 in M
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Ed's memo.
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MR. HANRAHAN:
7.1 in these.
10
. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
7.l?
E II COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
In the two page version, 3
y 12 itis 7.1.
It is an amplification which makes a little clearer 5
y 13 the proposition.
It seemed to me it was consistent with a
l 14 practice.
The question is more whether we would like PQG to be n
2 15 quite clear, or a more summary document.
j 16 I suggest we will return across the whole thing, I w
d 17 expect, before we are through.
j 18 Okay, put in OGC.
Now we stack up those papers and we E
19 go back to the version with lefts and rights, starting at III, 20 right?
21 MR. HANRAHAN:
On III, planning guidance.
The 22 introductory sentence indicates that this expands on the policy 23 ;
statements in section II, and the order of March is the same as 24 in section II, so as to allow some correlation between the 25 policy statements and the planning statements.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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y 1
The first section, A, deals with the level of 2
protection.
The first section,1, talks the safety goal project 3
and the schedule for a policy paper in August and generally the 4
thrust thereof.
e 5
Commissioner Bradford, in his memo, gives that paragraph k
6 an okay.
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7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
John, what is this, public and what?
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8 MR. HANRAHAN:
Peer.
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9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
This thing just covers what we i
h 10 covered.
Does it go on?
You have got to find this double --
3 11 this one that is on the left, it is a fairly thick thing, it is r5 12 printed left and right.
That looks like it.
And if you dig z
3 13 into that, try to find Roman III.
E 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That was based on public and I'k 2
15 peer.
5 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
Now we are looking at the is as i
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l.0 right at the top.
I was trying to decipher John's lii 18 handwriting.
5 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is not my handwriting.
That R
20 I think is George's handwriting.
I went back to my original 21 which, for one of the very few times, my handwriting was clearer 22 than anybody else's.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Are we goinC to make it by i
24 l August, '81?
l 25l MR. HANRAHAN:
Close thereto.
That is the schedule we ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
5 1
are working toward.
2' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Just as a matter of style, I 3
don'.t think we ought to. be saying something will be ready or 4
will happen.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, e xcept that we are Ae]
6 planning.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I see what you are saying.
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8 The basis of our planning is that.
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9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
io 10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I have a different minor problem El 11 with it.
We start out to say the Commission will develop-a 3
y 12 safety goal, but we don' t say exactly what it will look like, 5
y 13 whether it will be a statue or a toot on a horn or a piece of m
eg 14 paper.
Then we decide it is going to be a piece of paper, it 2
15 will be a policy paper, in fact, and we say, " Based on public g
16 and peer inputs, a policy paper will be ready... "
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17 How about "A policy paper will be ready by August, '81.
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18 The policy will contain" general things, attempt to do this, and
,ch 19 so on, and down at the end say, "The paper will include" what, R
20 in preparing the policy paper the staff will take into account, i
21 take into consideration public and peer group inputs.
22 You know, it sounds as though you are going to collect
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public and peer inputs and that is it, you know.
Just place i
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them together.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What is that?
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1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
What is a peer input?
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
In this instance.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I don't know, but people tell me 4
peer things are good.
So, it is the bus: word of '81.
Chuck it 5
in.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't think it is the buzz R
7 word of '81.
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8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
For '80?
Am I a year behind?
For d
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shame.
Y 10 COMMISSIONER-GILINSKY; Let me ask something else here.
3l 11 What is 'it that depends on a policy paper being ready by 1981, I
12 by August, 1981?
What does that then trigger?
Or what 5
13 activities depend on that date?
14 MR. HANRAHAN:
There is nothing magic about August, U
15
' 81, except when you initiated the proj ect you said you wanted j
16 it then.
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17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think he is asking what 5
18 happens after that.
5" 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I assume these are planning R
20 assumptions for people out there who are conducting all sorts 21 of activities of the agency, and some of them need to have a 22 standard number for how many applications we think we are going 23 ;
to be reviewing and a number for various other things.
Who out 24 there is waiting for this number or this date?
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Practically everybody.
j ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Would they be doing something 7
2 l different?
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think some people would be 4
working toward their own version of a safety goal in a different g
5 sense in some of either the rulemakings or the analyses.
But we a
6 have started this ---
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7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
My point is, who in the agency Kl 8
will be scheduling effort that will depend on that date?
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9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think it is the other way z
h 10 around.
I think it is.that there will be people in the agency z=
. who will not be scheduling effort, counting on this effort.
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r MISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, that is j ust as good.
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14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think rulemaking is one.
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15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And the whole range of related E
j 16 propositions.
Now you would say, all right, suppose the great e
6 17 j policy paper doesn't issue until Labor Day ---
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh, no, that doesn't matter.
E" 19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Or suppose it doesn't issue at all, R
20 you know, we will struggle ahead, I guess.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
This is helping people plan 22 their on activities.
23!
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
In princple, it is, yes.
24 i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And it ought to include items i
25,
that are going to. affect either someone in the organization I
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
8 1
putting effort on a proj ect, or taking effort off of a project.
2 i MR HANRAHAN:
And also on this proj ect itself, rather 3
than let the good become the enemy -- or the better becoming the I
4 enemy of the good of j ust doing more and more, study it some more,
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5 to get something on the table to be reviewed and to be An 6
considered.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
This is a policy paper that X
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will have come to us first, one we have agreed on.
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9 MR. HANRAHAN:
I would not tell them to plan on any z
O 10 such agreements.
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11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Say public input.
Don't say 3
y 12 peer input.
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13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, the reason I put that in m
ag 14 is that in j ust going back and reading the OPE proposal, which 2
15 had tried to say that one of the things they are doing is setting j
16 up several workshops, and the workshop focus is on other people e
d 17 who have spent a lot of time working in the area of establishing 18 safety goals and safety analyses.
You reme=ber that one of the
=H; 19 big pointa that Louis and companies criticized in our C-4 was j
M 20 not having enough peer review.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, that is because they are 22 peers.
23 !
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, that I am not going to i
24 address.
If you guys don't like it, drop it.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I just want to understand what l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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you mean.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It is fine.
3 Section 2.
4 MR. HANRAHAN:
Commissioner Bradford notes on this, he e
5 says, "Okay, but perhaps we can commit to doing this in this year.
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6 The statement as given here plans on the rulemaking taking place R
7 but does not specify any time for it to be completed.
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I had meant to check on what the schedule was, and I d
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failed to do so, so I don't have in my mind what the schedule is.
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10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Last fall the schedule was to n
j 11 have the proposed rule up at the Commission-in May.
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12 MR. HANRAHAN:
There is a draft rule out now.
5 5
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And at the end of October, which a
14 is the last time I had checked, they had planned on having it up 15 to us in May.
I think Peter's point is sound.
In this planning j
16 session, we ought to -- but I guess we ought to have a better w
17 sense of when that is going to be possible.
18 CHAIRMAN HEnDRIE:
Well, we certainly are not going to N
19 complete that rule in '81.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No.
But we ought to be able to 21 put the proposal certainly.
22 MR. HANRAHAN:
Fiscal or calendar?
23,
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, if we are not going to 24 put a proposal in ' 81, I don' t think we want to use the word 25 expeditio us ly.
I think you have to ask yourself again, who will ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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be affected by this and what sort of advice can you give them to 2
help them plan their work.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think the point ---
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That is wh/ I think you do need
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5 to put some sort of a date on it.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Now, the expeditiously came in 3
8 7
as a change.
Now, is that OPE's attempt to get the staff to N
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move faster?
I think it would be better to put something d
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explicit, the Commission intends or will publish a proposed rule i
h 10 in calendar 1981.
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11 MR. EYSYMONTT:
I'would propose to talk to the proper a
f 12 people and find out what their scheduling is, and suggest a 5g 13 date.
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14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, see what the practicalities 2
15 are.
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16
. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I agree with Vic that the word d
6 17
" expeditiously" by itself is not needed.
18 MR. HANRAHAN:
Do you want to strike " expeditiously"?
5 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would strike " expeditiously" 2
20 and instead have a specific date.
21 MR. HANRAHAN:
A specific date.
It makes more sense.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Section 3 u
23 MR. HANRAHAN:
The first part is essentially the same 24 as last year, a slightly different opening statement.
And the s
25l second part is an addition which part of it has been suggested to i
ALDERSOF REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
11 1
be deleted, to which Commissioner Bradford agrees.
2 He agrees with Chairman Hendrie.
3 CHAIR'4AN HENDRIE:
My comment was, if you want a
/
4 paragraph like this it ought to reflect the current situation.
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The current situation is that NPRDS is disappearing in favor of 9]
6 a combined component and incident problem reporting system, and E
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7 I think either we ought to not say anything or whatever we say Xl 8
ought to reflect the current direction of the organization.
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9 COMMISSIONER.AHEARNE:
In fact, what might be useful, 2
10 we have now gone out on the advance notice, and if we could get 11 some sense of a reasonable schedule to develop that on, that 3
y 12 would be more appropriate.
5 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is the first paragraph l
14 telling anybody.that they don't already know?
E 15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, remember, there are three j
16 groups of people that read this inside the agency.
There is one w
.f 17 group where you are right, it j ust tells them what they already z
18 '
know.
There is a second group that doesn't know what other P"
19 branches of the agency are doing, and this helps them understand.
g 20 And then there is a third group that are skeptical at times, 21 maybe we have reacted in the past to something and we have now 22 fallen back off of that, and you know that one of the big points 23 that certainly you have been pushing and gradually the i
24l Commission has accepted is to put a lot more effort on operational i
25 '
data analysis.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, no.
I think the thought 2
is right.
It is just if we want a general statement, I suppose 3
it belongs in the front of the document.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The second sentence speaks to, 5
g I guess, AEOD and IP on trying to get as much information as they n
j 6 I can from licensees.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, that is their charter.
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8 If we were saying that someone ought to take the lead or some-d q
9 thing ought to happen by a certain time, the I could see the 10 point of it.
This is just the Commission saying that we think 11 this is an important area.
It is an important area, I certainly j
12 agree with that.
5 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is a good point.
We coulc
=g 14 sharpen it.
15 MR. EYSYMONTT:
I am not sure that a charter has been g
16 agreed to between AEOD and International Programs.
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17,
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, maybe we want to say that
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18 a charter will be arrived at by August, 1981.
5 19 MR. HANRAHAN:
If you like, we could simply focus in 20 on the NPRDS issue which we raise here.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The combined-system.
22 MR. HANRAHAN:
Just reflect a decision on the combined I
23l system and that a schedule is inherent in that decision.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, I would prefer that.
From my i
25 l standpoint, the first sentence is fine up there at the top, I
l i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
13 1
continue to be a priority matter.
Then we spend the whole rest 2
of the paragraph over foreign data, which comes in in a spotty 3
fashion, and the applicability of which always has to be looked 4
at with some care.
From my standpoint it has a kind of a e
5 peculiar balance to it.
5l 6
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would not like to lose, if R
7 possible, the last sentence of that first paragraph.
I haven't 8
really seen us getting very far in doing that yet, but I think d
d 9
th'e concept, one of the original concepts when Michaelson's i
h 10 effort was set up, was that looking at that data might help E
j 11 I&E's identification of which licensees ought to be looked at 3
y 12 more carefully.
And we are still a fair way from getting to that 5
y 13 point.
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14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I am happy to see the 15 Commission endorse the whole thing, but.I am just not sure what j
16 it is doing here, unless we sharpen.it up and either indicate w
d 17 we want something to happen or people should count on ---
U 5
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I h2ve no problem in saying that E"
19 by some reasonable time, but it is not going to happen in ' 81, anc R
20 probably won't happen in '82.
So, by 1983 I&E should use the 21 analysis of operational data to identify the licensees whose 22 activities present greater risks and focus their efforts there.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, that depends in part on 24 our experience in using that data.
It may turn out to be a good 25 i idea.
It may turn out to be no such a good idea.
3 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
14 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My point is, the worst thing we 2
can do is to stop any attempt to use that, to analyze that data 3
to see whether or not you can make enough sense out of it to 4
focus on some licensees.
So, you want that attempt to go e
5
- forward, b
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Sure.
You want the various G
7 offices to try to squeeze as much information out of this data n
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as possible, no question about that.
I think that is the whole d
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point of this effort.
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10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right.
And one of the things i
j 11 at least that I would like to squeeze out is to see whether they a
p 12 can't find patterns that would enable them to say utility system
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13 X or utility X has been running a series of problems, we ought l
14 to put greater effort on that plant.
g 15 MR. HANRAHAN:
Rather than include that here in
-7
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16 something that appears to be more directed at Michpelson's group, d
6 17 the sentence might be better placed in something on enforcement 18 policy or inspection policy.
5" 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, it is not necessarily R
20 enforcement.
21 MR. HANRAHAN:
Well, inspection.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, it is inspection.
23 MR. HANRAHAN:
So specifically it appears to be r
24 directed at I&E,ratherthanjusttoMich/elson.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I think the thought is a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
15 O
1 good one, which is that you ought to try to direct your efforts 2
to where the problems are.
It depends on how much confidence the 3
data will allow you to have in the conclusions.
4 COMMISSIONER AFEARNE:
I don't have any strong e
5 preference either place.
I would hope we don't lose that.
So, b
isheremoreorientedtowardsMichfelson,orinan
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6 whether it E
7 inspection area more oriented towards I&E, but I.think that that A
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is something, and if we can have enough conf.'.dence that we know d
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2, when that would happen, I have no problem with putting in a date.
o 10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Unless we say something fairly i
11 specific, I really don't think anybody pays attention.
3 Y
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, not enough people do.
Ea 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Or not enough people, or not 5
8 i
l 14 many people do.
15 COMMISSIONER.AHEARNE:
Oh, I think OIA's report begins
=
j 16 to identify who pays attention and who doesn't.
e 17 MR. HENRAHAN:
We will look for the place to put this E
M 18 in the next pass around and not lose the thought, but get it in A"
19 where it seems to have the most impact.
And then start this g
20 section with the first sentence and then go into the NPRDS joint 21 system.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Good.
23 Section 4 24' There is a deletion starting five lines down which has i
25 '
three Commissioners on board.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
o 16 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
There is no point in me even 2
reading it.
Go ahead.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I had a question on where you 4
come out, the staff giving special attention, " amenable to risk 5
g assessment", generic safety issues, new regulatory requirements,
9 3
6 and so forth.
Is this list meant to conclude that licensing R
7 reviews themselves and the licensing review process aren't Xl 8
amenable 7 do 9
CRAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No.
The sentence doesn't say what
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10 it is meant to say.
The sentence says, peculiarly enough, that E
h 11 if you find an area where risk assessment methods are especially k
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12 useful, you give emphasis to that area, quite apart apparently Eag 13 from other considerations of our responsibility.
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14 What it was meant to say was, the staff shall give g
15 special attention to using risk assessment methods in those z
j 16 activities.that are especially amenable to the use of such w
Q' 17 methods.
U 18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is what I assumed that P
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19 they were talking about, you are right.
But having cleared up n
20 that, now I will get back to my question.
21 Are you assuming or do you believe that tne licensing 22
-review process itself is something that is not amenable to the 23 use of risk essessment techniques?
24 MR. EYSYMONTT:
No, I don't think so.
25l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am not'sure.
It might b e.
But ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
17 1
it is not in your written ---
2 MR. EYSYMONTT:
I guess we didn't want to preclude data 3
if it is possible to do in an amenable way.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Say it again?
e 5
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Licensing reviews aren't listed, 3"
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6 and I didn't know whether that was ---
R 7
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Oh, I see, right.
Good.
If a K
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subset is discouraged?
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10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It is not "e.g.,"
it is "1.e."
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11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It certainly ought to be "e. g. ", as 3
y 12 a minimum help.
5 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I didn't know whether that was 3=
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14 your judgment, that these areas were ones ---
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No.
I guess we would have to say there z
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Isn't that a part of the new h
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1, 20 COMMISSIONER-AHEARNE:
And of course they are integral 21 to the IRAP.
22 MR. HANRAHAN:
Yes, and at least in those cases we have 23 concluded that it is amenable to use in licensing reviews.
i 24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If you make it "e.g.",
I don't 25 think it ---
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MR. BICKWIT:
You don't reach the questiori.
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2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I prefer adding.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I would put it in there, then, with
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appropriate," or something like that.
Because there is the 5
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great array of numbers you have crunched, and now the arguments d
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10 Section 5.
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It needs to be rewritten.
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We will rewrite it.
5d 13 We have one delete and two keeps.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Which material or licensees are 5
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All of them?
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From Mr. Ahearne's note there is a e
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M 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I thought we had some great 21 risk assessment of geological repositories going on somewhere in 22 research.
We certainly did at one time.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, this I think more stems 1
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out of Dirck's concern which he started when he was king at 25 NMSS, and that is, we have thousands of material licensees, many i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
19 1
are licensed to use and possess very small quantities and some 2
large quantities, and we have never really attempted to analyze 3
what the risks were across that broad spectrum, and then focus, 4
either say here is a group that we need not even regulate, or e
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licensing machine, and here is another group in which we have not R
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9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, he was concerned about Y
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12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But he was concerned with where 5
13 the licensing people in NMSS were spending their time; he was l
14 concerned with where I&E people were spending their time, and he 2
15 had no sense of which of the -- across the spectrum of licensees 5
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And that was the genesis of that original paragraph.
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Again, it seems to me if we 5
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n 20 If we are not ready to do that, then I don't know if it helps 21 to just say generally we will try to define more precisely.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would propose to strike the 23 concurrent efforts on power reactors, NRC, and just put it NMSS, 24 instead of "try to."
And ask Ed to go back and change the 25 l language.
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think that is something that 2
might be a useful thing to do, but I guess you would want to sit 3
down and talk with them before we launch them, on just what would 4
be involved and what we are talking about.
You know, we are in
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
One of the things that planning R
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tries to do, remember, is to outline for the office directors Xl 8
what are the subjects in their area of responsibility that the d
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Now, it gives them some El 11 flexibility.
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I think that planning, though, 5
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15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think that is another level E
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I think at this level.of planning, for example to w
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ought to be a specific date in on each.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The kind of thing that I think 25l belongs in the section, and you can decide whether the numbers are I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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right or wrong, is the sort of thing that is at the bottom of the 2
next page, where you say during a certain period expect to have 3
so many realtors in the pipeline, and there are people whose 4
activities key that number.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sure.
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Here what we are trying to Xl 8
do, if we keep this kind of guidance, is to tell NMSS that they dy 9
ought to plan on trying to analyze this problem, and once it gets 29 5
10 well enough analyzed, then you could hopefully reach the point
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14 MR. HANRAHAN:
We have a problem here of not knowing E
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definition.
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Are we asking for a WASH-1400 21 on the material side?
22 MR. HANRAHAN:
I don't know whether you mean that in a v
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maj oritive sense or not.
But by making an analysis of the risks--e 24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think the answer is yes.
Perhaps 25l a mini 1400 was the sort of thing that was contemplated.
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MR. HANRAHAN:
But here to be able to do some 2
cc=parativer and which activities appear to be riskier than 3
others and therefora to spend more time on them than the others.
4 I think rather than trying to decide whether that ought to be a
5 done in six conths or a year, or whether it can be done, to plan Ae 6
on doing that and then ecce back to the Commission with a program
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I have got a couple of problems with m
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But as a general proposition, if you i
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have got a guy who is going to handle up to a curie of tritium, I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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why, you know exactly what the worst case consequences are.
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are judged in the context of license issuance to be acceptable.
3 So, I don't like the way the language states the 4
proposition to start out, and I wish you would please try to find e
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issuing materials licenses.
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who could, let alone more than one, who could, in fact, make ad 9
useful progress in this sort of risk assessment for materials
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And that will be El 11 true, in my view, for a couple of years to come at a minimum, 3
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l 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would like to disagree with 2
15 both of those poincs.
The first, the not sufficiently known was 5
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individuals get high levels of dose through accidents, are in l
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And he felt that NMSS did not, and he felt that I&E i
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did not, and when I talked to both of those groups, I reached the
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3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I can't resolve that with a state-4 ment that the risks are not sufficiently known.
If you tell me
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we don't know that.
The hell we don't.
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drops the damn thing on the table in front of the radiographer i
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4 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:.And the actual risk that occurs 14 in the use of this is very poorly known is his conclusion.
15 Now, the other side of it is, there are a lot of people j-16 that are licensed by us who we never see, and we~ essentially ~
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5 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That is right.
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We have no idea whether they are 20 using it right or wrong, and at least Bill felt in many cases, we 21 probably should just do away with licensing in some of those 22 thin gs.
They should be in the de minimus area.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
But that may be, but until you get 24 the law changed, why, you are going to license them.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But the conclusion, and I think ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
25 1
he is right, is -- now maybe your threshold, which is what is 2
reaximum hazard, fine, I don't disagree with that.
His point was, 3
we are regulating a whole industry, a whole spectrum of 4
operations, we really don't have an adequate knowledge to 5
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I agree he should.
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reactor licenses.
Because we don't have people in the reactor dd 9
business getting those levels of accidental exposures.
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Those levels of accidental exposures E=y 11 are what, half a dozen cases a year?
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12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Not very many.
5 13 CHAIRMAN HENDP.IE:
And any individual case, you know, l
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much push behind the effort.
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What is your feeling?
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I:. don't know, the proposition i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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would have to be more defined for me to think about it.
At this 2
point it is j ust saying the material area didn't get as much 3
attention as the reactor area.
I think in terms of risk there 4
really isn't much comparison.between the reactor and the material 5
area.
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Why don't we list the vote as two 10 to keep it in and one to keep it out, and put the thing on hold El 11 while you have a chance to chat with Davis and company.
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And perhaps George or Ed could 5
13 see if they couldn't find out from NMSS what would be -- if we l
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15 reasonable si o of that effort and the time to get it done.
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It is infinite.
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17 MR. EYSYMONTT:
It might be worthwhile asking them to E
18 prepare a-one or two page plan on how they would go about (cing 5
19 it, and what they expect the end results would be, and what the 20 manpower requirements would be.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It would be useful to have something 22 along that line.
Discuss it with them, and why don't we look u
23 for something like that.
24l Section 6.
Good heavens, I voted to delete that, didn't 25l I?
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MR. HANRAHAN:
Commissioner Bradford advised, to the 2
extent that he is satisfied as to technical adequacy by 3
ind,.ndent staff review, NRC reviews the voluntary standards and 4
so on.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You just voted to delete the
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6 last sentence.
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I see.
Yes, right.
That is what Xl 8
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Do you accept Commissioner Bradford's 5
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5d 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I have no problem with his 14 proposed modification.
2 15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I guess so.
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Well, let's.see.
Why did you w
6 17 want to delete that last one?
What is the issue there?
5 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You have gotten through saying that
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19 we will use voluntary standards where we are satisfied that they 20 are applicable and so on.
We note that we thereby take 21 advantage of available expertise and conform to the policy 22 enunciated in OMB Circular A-119 23 Then it goes on and says we will continue to participate 24 l1 as called for in the circular.
You know, you have already said 25l you are going to go along with the circular, and it didn't seem i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 like a great deal of purpose.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Actually, going back to the 3
5.0, it seems to me it depends a lot on what it would take to do
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You know, if one man thinking about
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allocate your efforts more sensibly, then by all means we ought R
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to do it.
If it is a very much larger effort, we have to think l
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On 7.0, Commissioner Bradford prefers 10 last year's version, which is on the facing page.
El 11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The difference that I would 3
y 12 prefer, I think that last year we censidered it, now we ought to 5
13 start committing that we will develop it.
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I haven't heard recently how we are 2
15 doing with third party ---
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I am sorry.I can't be very informative s
6 17 on this insertion from the standards people.
5 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
One of the lead efforts in that
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M 20 inspectors group certification of fabricators for N_ stamps and 21 so on, and various things of that kind.
22 I don't recall whether we had gotten t^ that stage or s
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not.
24 MR. HANRAHAN:
Do you want us to pursue those specific 25 i cases and put them specifically in here?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
29 1
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, over on the next page, there is 2
a section which John would delete and I was going to leave in, 3
which listed some of the aspects of various third party 4
operations.
But John's point is, we had it in last year and so s
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to use it.
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Right.
And I had thought, but El 11 it is now several months out of date, in talking to Costello I w
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But it 5
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14 think it ought to be.
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Yes.
I guess you ought to talk to 15 j
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We will include the specific things that l
18 are going on with this boiler.
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Why don't we argue about that when R
20 you come back and say, now he thinks we are ready to implement 21 here but not there, and we get a report of that kind.
Then we 22 can decide how much specific sort of stuff.
23,
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
As I recall, one of the problem; i
24 !
was being too specific, at least in one case they were discussing 25j two -- I think it was IEEE and one other national organization, i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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and it wasn't clear uhich side they were going to come down on.
2 MR. EYSYMONTT:
It certainly is a really broad program, 3
just looking at the language.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's move to "B.
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5 Adequate Protection."
5 6
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The first paragraph in front G
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of me, I guess that prejudges the statement that we have now Al 8
allowed for or soon it will go out for comment.
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Wait.
Say that again.
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' COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The first paragraph.
11 MR. HANRAHAN:
Yes, this was based on the reading last j
12 December.
Sg 13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
How about, "Throughout the planning a
l 14 period the Commission intends to license like a shot."
2 15 (Laughter.)
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6 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess at the moment that has E
18 to be held in abeyance.
k 19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I would think so.
R 20 Furthermore, no matter how the current efforts come 21 down, it is going to get complicated.
Prior Commission review 22 will be required before this, this and that, but not before that, 23 that and that, or something like that.
I am not sure whether it i
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We could leave it i
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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some of the proposals.
2 MR. HANRAHAN:
It may not adequately capture and it may 3
be too complex to try and capture in here, but that sort of 4
policy will be well enough understood that it doesn't need e
5 iteration in here.
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Section 1.0 is expectation of license applications.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is that the best latest X
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MR. HANRAHAN:
That was the estimate of, I guess, i
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I am not sure.
The last
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Is that the caseload?
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15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
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Well, I guess we had better check the w
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18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Wait a minute.
You are saying 5
19 will not exceed 170 under CP or OL review, or being constructed?
20 The number isn't anything like that.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It is operating plus that.
22 COMMISSIONER GILIhSKY:
I see, operating.
Okay.
23,
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right now it is about 163 24 MR. HANRAHAN:
That doesn't exceed 170, 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Just make sure the number is large ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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enough.
2 I find that I have got to go downtown for a minute and 3
promote the interest of the agency.
I am going to leave you 4
the gavel, John, and I want you both to stay hard at work.
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5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You might as well bang it.
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Oh, you are not going to stay?
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No, I don't think so.
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8 CHAIENAN HENDRIE:
Thank you very much.
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9 (Whereupon, at 11:05 a.
m.,
the meeting was i
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY CO.WISSION This is to certify that the' attached proceedings before the f ~
Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Discussion of Policy, Planning & Program Guidance for FY 1983-87 Date of Proceeding:
Wednesday, March 25, 1981 Docket !! umber:
Place of Proceeding: Room 1130,1717 H St., N.W., Washington, D.C.
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Commission.
Marilynn M. Nations Official Reporter (Typed)
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