ML19343D462
| ML19343D462 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 09/03/1980 |
| From: | Gilbert J METROPOLITAN EDISON CO. |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8105040545 | |
| Download: ML19343D462 (36) | |
Text
1 l
MOIIS I
UllITED RTATES 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIGIJ 3
__________________x 4
In the Matter of:
- s 5
METROPOLITAt!-EDIS0?! (TMI II)
+.9 6;,__________________$
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CS 7
Conference Room D-4 s
Howard Johnson Motor Inn k
8 473 Eisenhower Boulevard Q
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
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9 ie Wednesday, September 3, 1980 0
10 v.=
i Interv2ew ot.
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J.
ROBERT GILBERT I
d 12 x
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called for by the i!uclear Regulatory Commission, pursuant to 13 3
l notice, at 10:15 a.m.
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14 x
On behal f o f the !;uc l ea r Perulatory Commission:
E 15 l
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TERRY HARPSTER, Office of Inspection and Enforcement M.
16 JOHII W.
CRAIG, Office of Inspection and Enforcem"nt t;
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NORMAN C.
MOSELEY, Office of Inspection and Enforcement
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18l i:
DAVID H.
GAMBLE, Office of Inspector and Auditor E
19 X
E RICHARD K.
HOEFLING, Office of the Executive Le ra l 20 Director 2I On behalf of Metropolitan-Edison:
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'2 i
ERNEST L.
- BLAKE, JR.,
ESO.
^
23,!
Shaw, Pittman, Potts 5 Trowbridge 1800 M Street, ?I.
W.
Washington, D.
C.
20036 24 k a
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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MR. GA!!BLE:
Could we go on the record.
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This interview is being conducted as a portion of the h
4 Nuclear Regulatory Commission's investigation into the exchange 5
of information between the Metropolitan Edison Company and the 6
NRC on March 28th, 1979.
f 1
R b
7
!!r. Gilbert, counsel for Metropolitan Edison is here.
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f Do you have any objection to his presence during this interview?
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MR. GILBERT:
No.
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Whereupon, II J. ROBERT GILBERT is f
N I2 having been first duly sworn by Mr. Gamble, was examined and 5
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y 13 testified as follows:
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E I4 liR. CRAIG:
If you would, would you speak up just a j
15 little bit so our court reporter can hear you.
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THE WITNESS:
- Okay, f
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hI MR. CRAIG:
Thank you.
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1 This is the second tine that you have been interviewed;
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is that correct?
1 THE WITNESS:
That is correct.
I 20 i
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MR. CRAIG:
The only other time was the in the Senate?
1 i
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j THE WITNESS:
The Hart Commission.
i EXAMINATION BY MR. CRAIG:
I 25 4
!l Q
Would you please tell us to the best of your E.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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I recollection what occurred when Mr. Porter, Bennett, Wright, 2
Yager and yourself took the core exit thermocouple readings in 3
the computer input cabinet located in the room below the control
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4 room?
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A My involvement was the taking of a reading that wcn e
r 6I given to me from one of the meters.
I verified through a thermo-R b
7 couple equiva]ency book the voltage versus temperature that the k
0 book did not read as the reading we were getting off the volt d*
9 M.
meter.
I believe the reading was 53 millivolts.
To my recollec-10 tion, the book stopped at 50 nillivolts and I believe that 6
II corresponded to something like 2,400 degrees temperature.
That s
N I2. was about my involvement.
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There was limited space there.
So Skip Bennett 1:eing 3
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the computer foreman -- not computer foreman -- but having been
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15 ;the computer technician prior to his becoming a foreman and
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h I7 standpoint because they are rather dedicated to the computer,
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b IO we were just there as a back-up to see if there was anything P
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that we could do or if there was anything obvious to us that
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20 was wrong with the computer in gifing us the question marks up 21 lon the readout console.
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After we saw the millivoltages we were getting from
- the thermocouple, our only' opinion was that the computer was i
24 i reading what it was seeing.
That is why we were getting the 25 d question marks, the over-range indication or inoperable readings r
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Ai_DERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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on the console.
2 Q
Were you involved in this interpreting the resistance 3
readings to temperatures for a series of recdings or a couple h
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A I took one of the readings myself, you know, and just 1
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7 was correct.
That was my only involvement in it.
Whether I took l
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k two or three, I am not sure.
In fact, now that I think about it, i
d I did take another reading that was lower that was on scale and
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Q Were you down there the whole time they were taking f
I2 the readings?
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Mo.
When we got there it was the two technicians and b
I4 Porter, Ivan Porter was there, and they had already teken a set I
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15 of readings, a set being I don't know what, but they had the data l
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-d that they wanted.
Skip and I had simply come as sort of a back-up I6 l
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h.
I7 to verify was-tha computwaorkin8-r-yes or not, or why couldn't j
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M 18 we read these question marks out of the computer, why was the
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8 computer giving us the question marks.
We just verified what l
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the computer was seeing was what they were getting.
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i 21 Q
You verified that the temperatures were higher than l
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l the range ---
23 A
Of the computer.
24 i
Q
--- of the computer.
So you were aware that the 25 question marks did not,mean there was a failure, that the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 computer was actually getting a high indication?
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A It was getting either a high or low.
I believe if the 1
3 input is opened you also get the question marks.
So it could O
4 be an indication that the computer is either inoperable due to e
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the thermocouple being open or its being out of range.
9 3
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MR. HARPSTER:
Excuse me.
So there is not confusion, n
8 7
what you verified is in fact that the thermocouples were reading N
8 8
high and not that they were open; isn't that what you told us, or u
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j did I misunderstand you?
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THE WITNESS:
When we were first told about there was E
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a pioblem with the computer that t he re were question marke
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appearing on the console, okay, that could mean that the t he rmo-3 13 couples were either bad being open or that they we re out of 14 y
range.
We ve ri fie d they were reading hirh by the millivoltare 5
15 on the meter.
16 j
j BY MR. CRAIC:
H 17 Q
Ivan Porter was there during the readings?
E 18
=
A Yes.
H E
19 A
Q Were there discussions about core uncovery?
20 l
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I will say that I was not involved in any discussions lofthat 21 fact.
If anything was said about that, I wasn't present.
22 l
1 Q
So you did not overhear anything?
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23 A
There is limited space in that area.
With the test 24
' equipment there and the two technicians, Porter and Skip Bennett, 25[' I would say that I did not hear anything to that effect.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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1 Q
Were you there c.t the completion of the thermocouple 2
readings when they finished reading them and recording the 3
millivolt readings?
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Yes.
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Q Was Mr. Porter informed that a full set of thermocouple 8
6 readings had been taken?
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A All I know is that there was a set of readings taken.
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n He had the data he wanted from the thermocouples.
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I heard him say was he had the report, go up to the control room c
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MR. MOSELER:
Excuse me.
Was that before or after the s
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E complete set?
When was that?
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THE WITNESS:
This was when we were done.
E 14 MR. MOSELER:
The complete set had been taken by then?
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THE WITNESS:
Whatever a complete set is, it was i
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s taken.
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J MR. MOSELER:
It was all of them.
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THE WITNESS:
All the readings were taken that satis-I C
19 8
fled whatever Porter wanted as far as information.
We basically n
20 wrapped up the equipment, disconnected it and reconnected it to 21 the computer and then we went -- well, Porter took the information
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up to the contro] room.
Then myself and Skip, and I believe the 23
! technicians, we went up to the control room.
Skip and I looked i
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at the control room console and saw the question marks and, you 25 I know, verified what we saw and had heard.
I believe.at that point ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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they told us that all unnecessary personnel should leave.
That 2
.is when we got out of there.
3 MR. MOSELER:
Mr. Porter took the complete set with 4
him.
Were these recorded on the computer sheet?
Where we re these numbers recorded?
3 6
i THE WITHESS:
I will say a tablet or some piece of Ea 7
paper he had.
He had some paper with him.
Whe re he took them --
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he took them upstairs and, like I say, he told us he had to take
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9 these readings up to Miller in the control room.
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j MR. MOSELER:
Just to make sure I understand, I believe
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there are 52, that was a series of 52?
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THE WITNE3S:
I have no idea what he considered a set 9
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of Jata. Whether he took a representative sampling across the core 14 l
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All I know is he l
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ltooka representative -- you know, he had his data that he wanted I
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to ta.xe.
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BY MR. CRAIG:
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Q Who was recording the millivolt readings?
19 l
A I couldn't tell you.
One of the technicians was doing 20 the actual work of removing the thermocouple from the computer, 21 attacing it to the volt meter and then Porter would write it
'2 I
down.
23 Q
I am trying to get a good picture of what was going on.
1 24 li So Porter is standing there with a pie ce of paper.
He is there 25 'ib with a piece of paper and he is logging the millivolt readings l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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himself?
2 A
.I won't say whether he was doing it or whether the other 3
technician was doing it.
He was either doing it himself or
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overseeing the two technicians tak-ing the readings.
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Q Was a fluke thermocouple reader used to take these e'
6, readings?
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They had several pieces of equipment there and the' l
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fluke thermocouple reader was one of them.
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-Q Is tnis saturated about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit?
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I know it is saturated at some point, but I do-know.
35 II I wouldn't have known then.
I could give you the number now, I iS l
y 12 believe, but I am not sure what it was at that point.
I g" I3 MR. HARPSTER:
What is the number no ?
l I4 THZ WITNESS:
I think it is 2,700 or 2,800.
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15
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Was the fluke used to confirm the digital volt meter M
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18 A
It was used in parallel -- not parallel readings, but 19 i
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20 Q
What were the maximum indicated temperatures?
Do you I
2I know?
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22 A
The only informatIon I can give you on that is that I
!O 23, took the number of 53 millivolts from the fluke volt meter and 4
i 24 lI looked in the Omega tempera".we, voltage and temperature chart, i
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25 l and I got 50 millivolts.
I got the 50 millivolts and the chart i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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1 stopped at that point and a little bit of interpolation.
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2 l believe I came up with -- I believe it was 2,700 I believe I i
3 came up with.
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4 Q
Were any of the instruments left set up when you 5
left that area?
9 3
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A I think everything was reconnected.
E Q
So you disconnected the instruments you were using n
8 8
to rea-the thermocouples and rehook them?
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Reattach them.
I be lie ve that is the condition we j
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leit it in.
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Q When you left did everybody leave that area?
Do you d
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know?
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A I be lieve so.
Or if they didn't como directly with 14 y
us, they followed us shortly the ree f te r.
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Q Ivan Porter was there until aparoximately the end 16 y
when you were completed?
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A Yes, afjer all of the readings were taken.
As I said M
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before, I think once he had the data he was satisfied with he H
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went up to the control room.
f MR. GAMBLE:
He left ahead of you?
21 THE WITNESS:
Pardon?
22
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MR. GAMBLE:
Did he leave ahead of you or did you 23 }accompany him?
24 l THE WITNESS:
He left ahead of us.
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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BY MR. CRAIG:
2 Q
Can you give us a feel for how nuch before he left?
3 Are we talking a half an hour or five minutes?
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4 A
Five minutes; three to five minutes, something like e
5 that.
Me 6
MR. MCSELER:
All the readings had been taken that R*S 7
you are aware of being taken before Porter left?
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8 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
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BY MR. CRAIG:
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10 Q
Are you aware of the differences in the testimon'/ on this x
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I have heard d i f ferences whe re -- you are talking about E
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13 one person saying the core is uncovered, is that what you are 5
I4 referring to, or are you referring to temperatures?
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15 Q
The re was not a lot of difference in temperatures.
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The discus-7:
h 17 sion of is the core uncovered, or that kind of thing is in
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18 dispute, but there also seems to be a dispute about how many of P"
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these readings were reported.
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When we first were contacted they were looking -- we 2I were in the auditorium and they were looking for somebody that 22 I had worked extensively on the computer, which is what Skip had O
23 ;
done.
I had worked on the computer several years before this and 24
' before he became a technician, but I had none of the formal
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25 I training that Skip had had.
So I just kind of tagged along ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
11 1
behind him to see if there was anything I could do or help him 2
with because I did have at least a working knowledge of the books i
3 and where modules were in the computer, et cetera.
So I was 4
iust sort of the extra cog in the wheel.
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If there was discussion amongst the four of them in 9
3 6
that relay room, or the three of them, whatever, I really wasn't R
7 involved at that point.
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8 I remember I spent a number of minutes looking over the I
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9 t emperat ure millivolt chart looking at different numbers.
?
10 Q
Let's try to go over this one more time.
You were in
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Il the auditorium and "r.
Bennett was in the auditorium?
I N
12 A
We had met in the parkinE lot and walked in together.
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Q Would you sort of go through what happened next?
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I4 A
Well, we met in the parking lot.
We we re both reporting 15 to work around I guess ten of seven or a quarter of seven. We
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16 were walking in.
We got to the service building and we were met i
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auditorium.
M 20 We wire there Ikould say ten or fifteen minutes and l
2I lsomebody from Unit 2 came over looking f or -- I am not sure if I
22 ' he was looking specifically for Skip or for somebody who had 23 knowledge of the computer.
As soon as he saw Skip he talked to l
24 ll him and told him that there were question marks appearing on the h
25 ll computer printout on the tube, on the display, and would he just f
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
12 1
come over and see it there was anything obviously wrong.
Q So you then sent?
A So then the three of us, the third person I can't tell i
4 you who it was that came and got us, walked over and went richt e
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to the relay room.
3 6
Q Was anybody else already there?
n 8
7 A
Porter and the two technicians were there taking the N
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readings.
We had come in at about the end of whatever readings O
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they were taking.
We came in at the end and they basically j
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At that point they
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were done.
I don't believe they took any more data.
They may d
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have taken a couple of others and maybe reverified one or two for
=d 13 us, but they basically wrapped it up at that point.
14 I
y Q
How long was that before they evacuated unnecessary
=
9 15 i
personnel from Unit 2?
16 A
7: 45 I supposa.
I would say 7: 4 5 or five of eight, p
17 something like that, something in that order.
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BY MR. MOSE LEY :
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Q Let me ask a couple of questions.
Was there any 20 discussion among the people there in the room below the control 21 lroomabout the calibration of thermocouples or unreliability of 22 these thermocouples?
Was there any discussion of that?
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23 A
I can't really say.
I don't recall anybody talking 4
24 about trem.
There may have been some discussion about a 25 !! thermocounie either being bad or good.
The re is, you know, very i
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I seldom an in between point in a thermocouple.
But as far as any O
2 lengthy discussions about them, I don't recall anytling.
3 Q
Was there any discussion about them being unreliable l
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Q Was there any discussion on the formation of new R*S 7
junctions?
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A Nat that I recall, no, not while I was present anyway.
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BY MR. HARPSTER:
10 Q
Let me ask you a couple of questions.
I got lost some-E y
II where in here.
We talked about everyone having the thermocouple I
y I2 readings.
You went dowr there to tell them whether or not the g
13 question marks meant the computer was up or going up.
Who did z
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I didn't understand that.
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b One of the pieces of information to come out of the room
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k I0 aside from all these numbe rs was the fact that the question mark' h
I7 on tne computer up in the control room meant that it was
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18
,over-ranged.
Who did that get communicated to?
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A I can't recall that, you know, we discussed it with n
20 anybody af ter -- as I recall, we went up to the control room, 2I Skip and I, and we looked at the computer and we said there are i
22 l question marks there and, yes, it is over-ranged.
O 23 ;1 Q
Did you communicate to somebody that the question
,i 24 Ed marks meant that they weren't --
25 A
I think it was already established that there was i
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
14 I
something wrong because there are question marks.
But from the 2
fact that we had the high readings went along with the fact that 3
it was out of range.
I don't know whether that was established 4
or not earlier.
We didn't personally go up and tell -- there 5
g was another person standing at the console with us when we talked a
3 6
but who that person was I do not recall at all.
y about it, N*"
7 MR. MOSELEY:
It was not Porter, is that correct'>
It N
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5 wasn't Porter?
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THE WITNESS:
No.
At that time I am almost oositive 3
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Porter was already in the control room office.
I remembe r hir.
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g, being in there t a,lk in g.
i BY MR. HARFSTER:
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Q Would Ivan Porter have been awa re then that the question E
14 marks meant that incse values we re over-ranged as opposed to t he g
9 15 g
t hermocouple s be ing open or damaged?
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16 B
A Say that again.
2 I
Q Would Ivan Porter have been aware thea that the question
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18 marks on the computer meant nat that the thermocouples we re P
"g 19 damaged but the fact that they were over-ranged and this was 20 II confirmed by the readings taken down there?
l 21 A
He was aware that the temperatures were highe r than 22
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! the computer conceived.
There we re other peoJ 1e that knew that 23 I am pretty sure.
24 I h
Q Let me ask you another question.
I am a little curious.
1 25 'f Someone asked you to go.down and do this.
Did no one w(nt to I
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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I 15 1 4 know what your conclusions were that there were readings?
2 A
Well, somebody had -- I don't know whether Porter was 3
the basis of them sending for -- I don't know who told them to 4
come get us.
So whether Porter haa said send for, you know, g
5 Bennett or the computer people and get them over here, or how e
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6 we got involved in it, 1 really don't know.
R 7
Everything that we were doing with the inquiries s
8 was Eoing through Porter who was reporting to Miller and I ar.,
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9 not sure who else was up in the control room at the time, but
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,they were work #.ig through them, the shift foreman and the shift x=
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12 Q
Let me ask you another question.
What was your personal
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13 reaction to the mafnitude in the readings you saw down there?
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I4 A
I don't know.
I really didn't understand what was
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I am not a "nue" submariner as most of people are so E
l 16 I don't have that reactor background.
I didn't understano where d
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17 !i these numbers were coming from or what was happening.
So I really w=
h 18 couldn't say that I had an opinic. O t he r than, yes, these tempera-P h
19 tures are high and what it all meant.
M i
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"R.
HARPSTER:
Thank you.
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BY MR. CRAIG:
Q You hc d monitored these tempesatures during normal l
22
_9 23 goperations; is that right?
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A Ye-.
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25 j Q
ilere you aware that they were significantly higher than p
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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the normal?
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2 A
Well, I knew the range of the computer was I believe t-3 zero to 1,200 degrees'or 32 to 1,200 degrees Fahrenheit.
When kh 4
we were getting temperatures over that, let 's say,1,500 or 1,700 l
5, or 1,800, the computer was only doing what it was supposed to.
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6 Like I say, I had worked on it many years before and I recall R
7 the range from some of the surveillances we had done.
I knew j
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8 what would happened if it over-ranged the thing and it would just i
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go question mark or in one small scale it just goes blank.
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g 10 Q
Do you have any idea what Ivan Porter did with the iG h
11 data?
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12 A
All I can say about that is what he said in the relay 5
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14 data so that Miller could see it.
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2 15 Q
This data you are referring to ---
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16 A
--- was the data taken from the thermocouples.
f i
g 17 Q
At the end of the process where you were in the relay z
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18 room reading thermocouples with meters?
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19 A
Right.
20 BY MR. GAMBLE:
i 21 Q
Did you see them up in the office with Mr. Miller 22 later or when you went up?
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23 A
I know he was in the control room, yes.
There were 24 so many people in the office at that time.
Whether he was with, 25 let's say, Seelinger or Logan or who was with, I couldn't say ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
l 17 I
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exactly who he was with, but I know that he was there in the 2
i office.
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Q So you don't have any way of knowing for sure whether
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he passed this information to Mr. Miller or anyone?
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No, I could not say.
n 8
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Q Can you recall him being with Mr. Miller, among the i
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2 7
other people you mentioned that he was with?
N 8
8 A
No, not specifically.
j u
d 9
j Q
He was in the control room office?
O h
10 y
A Yes.
=
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g BY MR. CRAI-G:
i d
12 y
Q Do you have any knowledge that pertinent information j
E 13 j
was withheld from the NRC on March 28th, 1979?
E 14 y
A To my knowledge, no information was withheld.
x C
15 g
Q Since you reported on site that morning on 3/28, 16 what pressures have you felt which influenced you either directly 6
17 or indirectly to change your recollecations?
wx M
18
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E 19 g
changed my recollection except for the fact that time has passed 20 i
and a number of things have, you know, many things have happened.
21,We have had a lot of different reports, excerpts of which I have O
22 read.
People have talked.
There are a lot of things that I 23 l could interject now that I have heard people say.
You know, I was 24
()
the hero of this and I stopped this leak, whatever, I closed this 25 ) valve.
But I don't think they would have, you know, pressured me j
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into saying other than what I actually recall.
2 l
Q The NRC investigation that followed the accident 3
II identified missing segments of data.
The reason for these
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These segments include e
5 various time blocks f rom '.'ae alarm status printout, time blocks 3
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trend recorder No.
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I have no idea what happened to the data on your
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analog pin No. 2 on the computer.
Do you want me to surmise d
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what happened to the alarm and utility printout?
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E 14 y
A I have no idea what happened to it.
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MR. MOSELER:
If you have a theory let's hear that.
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Do I want to give my theory?
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MR. BLAKE:
Sure.
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18
( La ugh te r. )
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THE WITNESS:
Well, what happens is since the typer 20 is so slow and the alarms are backed up they may have dumped 21 the alarms.
They may have wiped out all the alarms so that 22
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instead of the alarms being back at, say, 6:30 in the morning 23 no"*
time, say, 7: 45.
So you are they are ett updated to, give a
24\\l current anyway.
Many things may have happened, but those things O
25 jd are over and done with and you at least have current stat o going i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
19 1
on so they update.
So I don't know that there is really 4~
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intentional -- it was just really to get current status of the 3
plant and what was happening so that you could react to those.
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4 BY MR. CRAIG:
5 g
Q Have you been involved in or overheard any conversations 9
6 concerning this data?
R 7
A No.
s j
8 Q
Are you aware of any efforts which have been made d
C 9
z, by Metropolitan Edison to locate or explain this or any other ey 10 missing data related to the accident?
3 h
11
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A No.
B N
12 Q
Data reflecting primary system parameters was.orinted 5
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5 I4 it has never been found.
Can you explain or do yoa have any 5
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No idea.
d 7:
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Have you been involved in or ever heard any conversationc x=
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P h
I9 A
No, I haven't heard of any data.
e 20 Q
Are you aware of any ef forts being made by Metropolitan 2I Edison to either locate or explain the disappearance of this data?
22 A
All I know is that our books are open and any data we O
23 :
have, you know, is available.
We haven't suppressed anything.
24 i
Q There hasn't been a separate search initiated by l
25 i Metropolitan Edison to specifically identify any data that they
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don't have or seems to be missing?
O 2
A For a period after the accident, several months after 3
the accident we had so many groups coming in taking cur data books
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4 and Xeroxing this page-and that page.
All I can say is if there
~
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0 our data up and we noted that when we started giving this data R*
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,out for people to help them, some of that data wasn't ecming back.
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have come in. The Presidential Commission has wandered in and OH 10 y
different segments of the NRC.
You have three different groups,
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One day we had three groups of the NRC.
One day I
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think we had all three groups in *here following one another z
h I4 wanting this page out of this book.
So, you know, if something
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got lost it may be in the system.
It may have been that somebody
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Xeroxed it and put it in the wrong place.
No attempt is being z
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made to hide it.
It was just lcst in the system.
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Additionally, the sheet on which the core exit thermo-
=
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20 until May 7th, 1979.
Do you have any idea what happened to that?
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A I nave no idea.
1 Q
Have you been involved in or overhead conversations
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24 l
A No.
O J
25 "
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Are you aware of any efforts being made or which have ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
21 I
been made by Metropolitan Edison to explain the disappearance of 2
the data for that time period?
3 A
Ho.
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4 Q
Just to clarify what you stated before, this sheet 5
g on which the core exit thermocouples were recorded was carried 9
y 6
from the relay room by Ivan Porter; is that correct?
R*E 7
A
- Yes, l
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BY MR. GAMB LE :
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Q Mr. Gilbert, I have just one question that I want to
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Your job when you were down there working with those
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That is who you were s
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You didn't come back and report 5
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O z
5 I4 A
I really didn't give him any information.
Like I say, 15 I was more or less the extra cog there.
I really just was there
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As far z
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Like I say, I have s"
I9 8
no feeling whatsoever whether he took a cross-section of thermo-e 20 couples or whether he took all of the thermocouples or exactly 2I what was taken.
All I know is that at some point he said they i
22 Ihad enough data and we didn't want to take any more and that he 23 : had to report up to the control room to Miller.
24 I
Q When you left did you relate the findings of your
(
25 group, not specifi, ally your findings, but Mr. Porter's findings, i
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
22 i
I did you relate this information to anyone else?
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A To any of the higher management people?
l 3
Q Supervisory personnel.
We won't take it too high.
4 A
No.
I think, you know, Porter's statement that he was c
5-taking it up to Miller was to me the end.
I mean, he was taking 0
the information up and giving it to Miller.
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You didn't even present it informally then to any n
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other supervisory personnel?
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j on our level just talking about what we saw down there.
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Q Which other-foreman would that have been?
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A Doug Weaver.
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Dotic, Weaver?
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Did he react to what you said in any way?
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18 4
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i 21 i
didn't pursue it any further since it was already at a higher
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23 Q
Understood, but when Mr. Weaver got the information 24 informally, of course, from you, did he react in any way to it?
A No.
At that point in time we were doing a number of l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
23 I
other jobs.
We were tied up with -- exactly what they are right 2
now I can't recall, but there was a temporary airlines being run 3
and let's say jumpers were being put in and a lot of other little
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So I doubt that Weaver reported to anybody else a
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7 MR. CRAIG:
Can we go off the record.
8 (Discussion off the record.)
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9 MR. CRAIG:
We will go back on the record now.
zoH 10 3
There are several apparent discrepancies with respect
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I will try to summarize then as best
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I can and I thin k it is a /alid representation of what people have I
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15 MR. HARPSTER:
I might point, and not just what you 16 have said, but we have all these transcripts before you of what z
h I7 various people have testified to and there are differences which
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MR. C RAIG :
Ivan Porter characterizes his knowledge of e
20 the millivolt readings as a few, five or six readings, some 2I high and some low and some in the middle.
He then leaves the 22 relay room and goes up and talks to Gary Miller.
He is then O
23 ; unaware of the other 40-plus readings which were taken, or indeed 24 50, or however there are.
So his testimony indicates that he O
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when unnecessary personnel lef t the control room.
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having some difficulty rectifying the sheet, who recorded the 7
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readings, who took the sheet to the contrd1 room and was j
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Can j
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1 THE WITNESS:
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17 taking the thermocouple off the reader and putting it back on.
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20 data was gotten, that was listed was gotten prior to Bennett 21 and myself having gotten there.
That is all I can recall.
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This piece of paper that Skip was supposed to have 23 I i
put on the computer console, I don't not recall that at all 24 whether he had any paper or anything at all.
If he says he 25 put it on the computer, that is his statement, but I can't l
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recall any of that.
2 MR. MOSELEY:
Is it true that both the the DVM and i
j 3
the fluke required the breaking of the connection?
I thought h
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connections.
Am I wrong about that?
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7 THE WITNESS:
If I were taking the measurements on 4
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8 the thermocouple to prevent any loading by any of the other d
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circuitry I would disconnect it.
I know that some of them were z
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If they went down and took readings just i,
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's f
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That is about all I can add.
E 18 BY MR. CRAIG:
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19 Q
In your opinion, after you and Skip and Ivan Porter n
l 20 left the relay room, was there time where you could have gonc l
21 back with the volt meter and taken millivolt readings on the I
I i
22 remainder of the core temperatures before tne unnecessary personnel
!G 23 i were evacuated by disconnecting links?
i 24 A
No, there would not have been time.
M j
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MR. HARPSTER:
Let me ask you to help me our of my l
1 l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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confusion here with a question.
What did they record these l ()
2 readings on?
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3 THE WITNESS:
A piece of paper or a tablet.
I don't O
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It was just some paper that he had.
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BY MR. HARPSTER:
h 6
Q What did Porter record his readings on?
R
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You know, they had a table there or the volt s
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meter or a handboard or a clipboard, or whatever, and just was d*
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writing them on that.
Like I say, I' don't know if Porter was
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B h
Il MR. HARPSTER:
Or both.
B N
I2 THE WITNESS:
Or both.
I can't really tell you.
5
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13 MR. HOEFLING:
There could have been two records taken m
5 14 by different people?
15 THE WITNESS:
It is possible.
Maybe the reason Porter e
16 didn't want a whole set of readings taken was because some cf the d
7:
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19 g
wouldn't have been any need to read them all.
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20 picked, let's say, one in the center of the core and one on the 2I outside and, you know, like I say, he picked a representative l
22
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sample of thermocouples to read.
But I know that some of them 23 j weren ' t reading 52 millivolts or 50 millivolts, whatever, but 1
24 they were reading down around 1,8J0 degrees whatever that voltare 25 d would have been.
l' ll li ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
27 MR. CRAIG:
But the computer only prints out to ---
j 0
rat w Tutss:
1,200.
2 MR. CRAIG:
--- 1,200 degrees.
3 THE WITNESS:
I think there were some that were still 4
re ding n scale like 1,100.
e 5
2 N
MR. HARPSTER:
I believe
.t is accurate that the N
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7 computer only prints to 700 degrees.
i y
THE WITNESS:
Is it only 700?
I thought it was a lot 8!
N more.
Okay.
9
-i 10 BY T!R. CRAIG:
E h
gj Q
After you left the control room when they evacuated Es d
12 unnec ssary personnel, did you leave with Skip then?
iS A
Yes.
13 Os 14 Q
Did you go some pJane togehter?
Were you t oge ther for ws!
15 a time period af ter that ?
i:i 16 A
We then went to our cars and got in our cars and we isz g-j7 went over to either the obre rvanion center or the 500 r/ Sub-w=
M 18 station.
- H 19 Q
You were there with Skip?
5c:
l A
Yes, with Skip.
20 21 BY MR. GAMBLE:
i 22 Q
DiJ you accompany Skip from where you were taking the O
23, readings up to the control room when Skip went up?
24 i
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with the readings _on it?
0 2
j A
No.
l 3
BY MR. IDSELEY:
4 Q
Let me just ask to try and clarify something.
You said i
5' l
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4 3
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Are you sure that it was not the computer sheet on-j e
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which these things were later found recorded?
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I just saw them writing.
What that i
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MR. CRAIG:
Are there any more questions on that?
I II MR. HARPSTER:
Could we go off the record for a second?
i is 5
I2 (Discussion of f the record. )
5 fh 13 MR. CRAIG:
Can we go back on the record now.
I4 BY MR. CRAIG:
x 9
15 g
Q Did Porter express any confidence or lack of confidence I
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A I guess it is a case of seeing and not really under-l P
19 8
standing it or believing it.
I mean, believing it would be the e
20 best because he was trying to feel his way of why were we getting 21 cuch high readings with the conditions we had, but if he lacked confidence, I don't think he lacked confidence.
23 Q
How was he trying to feel his way through this?
Were 24 there discussions about'it?
i
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25 A
He just kept.looking at the numbers and expressing, 9
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
29 t
I well, this is what we have and this is millivolts and-this is 2
.the temperature and the computer is 'seeing it, too.
So how:can i
3 we get these high-temperatures with the conditions we have?
l i
MR. MOSELEY:
Those were the kind of-words that he h
4 5 -
was saying?
THE WITNESS:
I-am putting it into my own words.
You 0
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- know, he is going through a whole thought' process, I am sure, of l-12 what is going on in there because he has a strong background, h
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He is z.
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12 MR. GAMBLE:
But he didn't say anything that would c"
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THE WITNESS:
I will say no.
It was just more of a we d
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This was a verbal thing that Porter was j.
m J8 expressing; is that correct?'
H I
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THE WITNESS:
Well, he just showed it to us, what the 20 numbers were, you know, as far as that one high temperature that 21 we had gotten, and I believe it was the center of the core.
i 22 MR. CRAIG:
At that point there.was only one that was 23 over 1,800 degrees or 2,000 degrees?
24 THE WITNESS:
As I recall, two or three that we saw 25 '
were over the 2,000 degree range.
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MR. CRAIG:
Can you give me a feel for how many there 2
were approximately?
3 THE WITNESS:
I will just say two or three because that O
4 is all I recall seeing.
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5' MR. CRAIG:
Total readings, ten, fifteen?
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6 THE WITNESS:
I have no idea how many readings were I
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that.
I looked that up in my little chart there and was able z
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r 11 whateer, but there were only two or three of them that I remember, i
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Did you see the sheet that they were writing i
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E 14 THE WITNESS:
No.
Anything that I got was verbal.
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2 15 MR. CRAIG:
So you are a little bit removed, and I 1
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16 1
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THE WITNESS:
I would say, how many millivolts did you n
20 get there, or I would overhear them saying the number of millivolts 21 and then somebody would transcribe it onto the paper.
22 MR. CRAIG:
Okay.
23 MR. GAMBLE:
Mr. Gilbert, what time frame approximately 24 are we talking about ?
There was an unknown period of time that 25 they'were taking readings before you arrived, of course, but then 1
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
31 a
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-you were thereifor-about how long before Mr. Porter left?
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2 THE WITNESS:
I am very bad with time, but if I was 3
'i gotten out of.the' auditorium about a quarter after seven and t
4 I
we were over there - by, let 's say, 7 : 2 0, I would say maybe a total e-5' t
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time in-the room of about 15 or 20' minutes.
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j MR. GAMBLE:
That you were present 15 or'20 minutes,-
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were still present?
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Yes.
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MR. GAMBLE:
Then everybody left?
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Yes.
If they didn't leave immediately, f
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16
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MR. CRAIG:
Did you go back into the control room on l
I-d 17 3/28 af ter you left in the morning?
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m 18 THE WITNESS-No.
At that-point in time it is very
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l hazy.' I left the island and I reported either to the observation 20 center and then to the 500 KV, or when I left the island I reported right to the 500 KV sub, I am not.sure, for frisking.
At that-(
point after I was frisked, I went home and I came back about 23 f
11 o' clock that night to the observation center.
Whether I went 24 to the island that night, I am not sure.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
32 I
BY MR. CRAIG:
2 Q
On 3/28/79 did you have a feeling that information 3
should not be volunteered to the NRC?
()
4 A
No.
I had no reason to hide anything.
5 3
Q Did you feel that answering specific questions asked a
3 6
s.
by the NRC fulfilled reporting requirements?
R b
A Say that again.
M 8
8 Q
Did you feel that answering only specific questions a
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which might have been asked by the NRC would fulfill the 9
oF 10 y
requirement to report information to the NRC?
=
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I don'" believe I had any information to tell the B
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NRC.
I wasn't hiding anything.
You know, I had nothing to
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3 14
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Do you have anything else, Terry?
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15 MR. HARPSTER:
No.
=
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MR. CRAIG:
I think that concludes the interview.
We A
will give you a copy of the transcript when it is typed up so e
M 18
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you can review it and submit any corrections which you think s
E 19 5
are necessary.
e THE WITNESS:
Okay.
21 MR. CRAIG:
Thank you for coming up to talk to us and 22 thanks for your ef fort to try and clear some of this up.
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23 l (Whereupon, at 11:00 a.m.,
the interview concluded.)
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l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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auctzxa azautxroar coxerssros This is to certify that the attached preceedings before the s
Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter Of:
?!etropolitan Edison Tf1I II Date of Proceeding:
sentember 3, 1980 Docket Nu=ber:
none Place of Proceeding: 11a rri sbu rev. Pa.
were held as herein appears, and that this is the criginal transcrip thereof for the file of the Cc==ission.
MARY SIM! IONS Official Reporter (Typed)
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Official Reporter (Signature) l l
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O P00RORBih.
SHAw, PITTMAN, PoTTs & 'TROWBRIDG E 1800 M STR EET, N. W.
WASHINGTON, D. C. 2OO36
- EORG E F. TRowSRIDG E RICHARD E. GALEN STEPH EN D. POTTS RosERT B. ROSSINS SERALD CHARNOFF STEVEN M. LUCAS TELEcoptER (A
PHILLip D. SOSTwlCR MATsAS F. TRAvaESO-DIAZ (202)296 0694 & 296 1760 4
R. TsMOTMY HANLON VICTOR 8A J. PERR8NS
@ CORG E M. ROG E RS, JR.
JOHN M. O'N E 8tL, J R.
U FRED A. LITTLE JAY A. E PStIEN JOHN S. RM6N ELAN DER '
RAND L ALLEN 7g gg
[RUCE w. CMURCMILL TIMOTMT 8. Me*Rf DE 89 2693 (SHAwLAm wSM)
LESLIE A. NICMOLSON. JR.
ELISABETM M. PENDLETON M ARTIN D. M RALL LUCY G. ELIASor CABLE,SMAwLAW,,
RICHARD J. M ENDALL PAUL A. R APLAN
~
e A R.E. S ILB ERG JAv MARRY M GLASSPIEGEL October 6, 1980 ARA M.ROSSOTTI R A N DAt. R ELt A EORG E V. ALLE N. JR.
TMOMAS M. McCORMICK E DWA,0
. c.,E L,,,
WM. BRADFORD REYNOLDS SUSAN D. FALRSON COUNSEL FRED ORASNER WI LLI A M P.BARR N ATH ANIE L P. G REED, JR.
JOMN L.CARR, JR.
M ARR AUGENGLICR PMILip J. MARVEY ERN E ST L. BLAR E, JR.
ROBERT M. GORDON CAR LE TON 5. JONES JEANN E A. CALDERON TMOM AS A. sAxTER sARBARA J. MORG EN8 JAM ES M. BURGER BONNIE S. COTTLIES SHELDON J. WEISEL ALFRED M. POSTELL JOHN A. McCULLOUGH HOWAR D M. SMAFF ERN AN J. PATRICR HICREY DEBORAM L. e E RN ST EIN 4 EORG E P. M ICH AELT. JR.
SCOTT A. ANENBERG JAM ES THOM AS LENH ART SETM M. MOOG ASIA N NTEVEN L. MELT 2ER SMEILA C. McCAFFERTY DE AN D. AULICR DE LIS S A A. RIDGWAY JOHN ENGEL R ENN ETM J. MAUTM AN ETEPMEN 8. HUTTLER DAVID LAWRENCE MILLER WINTHROP N. BROWN
'NOT ADMITTED em 0.C.
Norman C.
Moseley, Director Division of Reactor Operations Inspection Office of Inspection and Enforcement U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission pV Washington, DC 20555
Dear Mr. Moseley:
Enclosed are corrections to the interview transcripts for the following individuals:
Name Interview Date Robert C.
Arnold September 5, 1980 Donald A.
Berry September 3, 1980 J. Robert Gilbert September 3, 1980 John G.
Herbein (2 pages; September 5, 1980 q
Gary Paul Miller September 5, 1980 Sincerely, LL.6Laks w p
Ernest L. Blake, Jr.
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSluN OFFit.E OF I';SN.CIION AND ENFORCE:!ENT
-2 Correcttons to the hpt.c-Ler 3, 1930, Interview of J. Robert Gilbert:
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