ML19339A224
| ML19339A224 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 08/07/1979 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8011030334 | |
| Download: ML19339A224 (82) | |
Text
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orer UNITED STATES
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'4j NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION g
l W ASHIN GTON, D.C. 20555
?g" Cf4 /
j October 14, 1980 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISCLOSURE UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE ACT OF:
Transcript of Budaet Markup Auaust 7, 1979 (p.m.)
t, I
The Commission previously determined that the subject transcript should be withheld from public discicsure until the Commission's FY-81 Appropriation became law.
Following enactment into law of the Commission's FY-81 Appropriation, the Secretary of the Commission, upon the advice of the General Counsel, determined that the subject transcript should be released in its entirety.
J n C. Hoyle Acting Secr ary of the Commi_ssion i
l l
1 N.7 8011030 339
i 9,
.s
(
NUCLE AR REGULATORY COMMISSION
(
IN THE MATTER OF:
CLOSED MEETING BUDGET MARKUP
(
Place - Washington, D. C.
1 - 79 Date. Tuesday, 7 August 1979 Pages T.i.enen.:
j (202)347-3700 ACE -FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.
OfficialReporters 444 North Capitol Street I
Washington, D.C. 20001 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE. DAILY
342 1
j UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 CLOSED MEETING 5
BUDGET MARKUP 6
7 8
Room 1130 9
1717 H Street,.N. W.
Washington, D.
C.-
10 Tuesday, 7 August 1979 11 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 1:40 p.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman 14 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 15 RICHARD T. KENNEDY, Commissioner 16 PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner 17 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Commissioner 18 PRESENT:
19 L. Barry, B. Cooper, L. V. Gossick N. Monaco, N. Haller, 20 T. Engelhardt, and R.
Smith.
21 22 23 24 s,4v3 noorwn. nm.
25
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
On that basis, I would have 3
taken 71.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Why about throwing some 5
lawyers into I&E so we can get some enforcement.
We have a 6
lot of inspection and no enforcement.
7 (Laughte r. )
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, if he wants to convert some 9
of us into enforcers, why that would be fine with me.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I didn't realize it was a 11 legal problem that was holding that up.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It is.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You think so?
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
De finitely.
No question 15 about it, 16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Then we ought to have some i
17 lawyers if ELD's aren't --
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
There 's a difference in 19 point of view.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, that's a haggle.
Le t 's - see 21 what would be -- strength in reactor operations then be in ' 80, 22 John?
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In
'90, I would end up with l
24 then -- well, let's see -- I guess 267, but that's on the Ace 4eder $ Reporters, Inc.
25 basis of -- I'm not doing -- there is a right spread, which I
jl 2 3
1 separates all, but working off the base of all 135 into that 2
place, then it would be 267.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
That would be minus 71, under my 4
number.
And what would you come to in '817 5
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In '81, again assuming all the 6
85 would go in there, 135.
Rather, I would guess would have 7
come up with 301.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
301 would have been plus 30 over 9
the previous number.
10 Okay.
And the reactor construction program --
y 11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Wait a minute, now -- 281.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
281 -- where?
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In '80 -- in '81.
t 14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Oh, in '81 -- 281.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It's 50 above the EDO 16 recommendation.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And construction, nothing on the 18
' 80 supplement?
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No, because -- I think that's 20 because of the way it spread.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
22 And then in ' 81, plus 34, which I broke out -- 21 --
23 because they've underestimated the case load in there.
10 for 24 PAT growth, and three early-site residents.
1 M.rederC) Reporters, Inc.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
That's the 169 EDO.
ji 3,
4 l
1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It turns out to be -- I think it 2
turns out to be 179.
I_
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
Oh, 3 4 -- okay.
4 I guess I didn't take any of the PAT growth.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You would have not had the PAT 6
growth minus 10 then.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEAANE:
That's one.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And then, over on the safeguards, 9
I would hold at 90 people for ' 80, that is, no ' 80 supplement; 10 and ' 81, I would have only added three of that, IAEA, you know, 11 for the treaty application.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So that would have brought 13 you to what?
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
9 3 versus the EDO's 97.
15 If I've added correctly, my numbers would come out 16 to 926 in '81, for a total of 65 additional people in the '81 17 reques t.
18 MR. BARRY:
Could you read your numbers down to me 19 again?
Management Direction, Support, and People?
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Management Direction, no increment.
21 MR. BARRY :
So that would be --
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
97 -- 97.
23 MR. B ARRY :
Specialized technical training?
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It looked to me like it was going Ace-Federd Reporters, Inc.
25 to 25 on the '80 supplement, by virtue of the 11 out of the
j 314 5
I 146, and then stay there for ' 81.
l 2
MR. B ARRY :
You can hold it at what level, 20?
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
25.
4 MR. BARRY:
25.
Okay.
5 And vendor?
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
29 and 29..
7 MR. BARRY:
29.
8 And fuel cycle materials?
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No increment in '80, supplement 10 plus 28 to 174 in '81.
II MR. B ARRY :
Okay.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Reactor operations -- I've pitched 13 the 135 on top of the 203 base, got 338 on the '80 supplement-14 ing, kept it there in '81.
15 MR. BARRY:
338?
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Because I just threw 135 people 17 on top.
18 MR. BARRY:
338.
I had a number of 281.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
That was John's.
20 MR. B ARRY :
That's 338?
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
338.
22 MR. GOSSICK:
'80 and '81, both.
23 MR. BARRY:
And in reactor construction?
24 CHAIRMAN FENDRIE:
No change in '80, 145 plus 34 to Ac..e. der : Reponers. inc.
25 179 in '81.
And then the last one, no change in '80, leave it
dl 5, 6
1 90.
s up' to 93 for the IAEA in ' 81.
2 MR. BARRY:
And that totals 926?
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
4 Now, you come out 910 -- I thought it was 916.
S COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
Well, it was yesterday when I 6
had gone through it without going through the decision units,
7 but I've accepted a few reductions here that I hadn't thought 8
of myself.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I see.
Plus nothing, minus zero.
10 I have to be careful how I present these things to 11 you.
12 (Laughter. )
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
On the dollars in ' 81, I went 14 right down the EDO "' ark and got 6691, for a total, 6,691,000.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
This was for --
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
'81 program support.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
And I had -- since I was 18 reducing to the unit, true unit program, I felt that there was 19 some program support that was going to come out in '81.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, you did.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Would you let him hire lawyers
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22 if he though.t that he needed to replace some of Ehe staff?
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23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
Sure.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I don't have anything against Ace #eder0 Reporters. Inc.
25 lawyers.
He hires every other kind of specialty.
So far, we ' ve
7 jL 6 1
kept all the lawyers in the staff in ELD, I guess.
Well, no, we haven ' t -- we ' ve got some.
2 MR. DONOGHUE :
Not as lawyers.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
In ELD.
4 MR. ENGELHARDT :
In OGC.
5 OMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We don't keep all mechanical 6
engineers, do we?
7
^ "^"
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think Tom's point is that 9
those people who are practicing law --
10
,-" 33 MR. GOSSICK:
We've got a few lawyers scattered around here and there, but they ' re not really --
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But not having job descrip-13
., 3
~~~
14
-tions of giving legal advice.
n..--
~-.-
MR. GOSSICK:
That's right.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I actually think that's ar 16 important point.
I wouldn't eliminate the group in ELD, but 17 I think that --
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
If your initial premise is 19 correct -- and I don't know one way or the other -- but if your 20 initial premise is correct, namely that the reason enforcement 21 actions aren't being taken is because of the lack of legal 22 advice there, the a I would definitely --
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It's a little more complicated 24 AmedwC Repomrs. W.
R than that.
But I think it's important to have lawyers that are 25
jl 7 8
1 intimately related and -- you know, involved in I&E activities.
-s 2
Lee, did you take notes?
3 MR. GOSSICK:
Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
If they want to hire some lawyers 5
in to help with reducing the enforcement actions, why that's 6
fine with me.
I think they could be czyated on the same basis 7
that other lawyers in the shop are that are not in the law 8
practice operation.
And I would j est treat them -the s ame - way.
~
think that the Derb that-you 9
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
I 10 used is different than the one that Vic had in mind.
11 (Laughter.)
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You said to hire them and to
. 13 reducing tb2 enforcement actions.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
A mistake -- wrong word --
15
" enhance" -
" reduce the delays," maybe -- I don' t know.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That's really the point, yes,
17 MR. BARRY:
The total comes out to 935, 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You get the 935.
Can you see 19 where I butchered it?
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What is your total in reactor 21 Operations?
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
338.
23 Well, Bruce, or somebody?
24 Nick, add and subtract and see if you can locate Ace Federd Reporters, Inc.
25 where I blew it.
Let me check off the program support in the
ji 8 9
0 1
'80 supplement.
m' 2~
If you turn to pages in Dick's layout, and get his 3
summary table, and look at his '80 supplement request -- the 4
way I read the control, his latest overall summary sheet, the 5
100K for reactor operations and the 764 in specialized techni-6 cal training seem to me were already in the base program by 7
virtue of Congressional action.
1 8
Is that right, Len, or is that wrong?
9 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And that leaves the 200K, the 11 hundred in fuel materials, safety, and a hundred in management 12 direction and support as the ' 80 ' supplemental request.
13 MR. BARRY:
Right.
~
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And I allowed that.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
And I had put in 500 16 for response center -- I guess between 300 and 500 for the 17 response center.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I thought -- because I'm not sure 19 whether that ought to appear here -- I ain't agin it, but I'm 20 not sure whether it ought to appear here or under administra-21 tive support.
22 MR. BARRY:
Was that for contractual support?
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
Go out and hire somebody 24 to do an architectural design.
w seed Reponers, Inc.
25 MR. BARRY:
Then it would go here, as program support.
- ji 9 10 1
1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It would go in here as program 2
support.
In that case, it woul'd add in, presumably, to the 3
management -
go in at the headquarters level -- management cnd tl2 4
direction and support.
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 j
12 13 2
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
25
11
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CR6332.13 RMGl 1
M11. BARRY:
Right.
~
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And I don't know what the level 3
would be.
4 MR.1BARRY :
Just get away from Washington, 500,000 ---
5 if you get a guy from the Midwest, you can do it for 250,000.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Put 300,000.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
300,000 for a response center?
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's not for the center.
9 That's for the design.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That's for what, actually, 11 design, actually rebuilding?
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's to design a thing --
13
~you need some money for the equipment to rebuild it.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Pnd that would presumably come 15 in '81 and be in equipment down in administrative support and 16 equipment.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I don't know where -- I would 18 leave it up to the Comptroller.
19 MR. GOSSICK:
This would include any preliminary 20 studies with regard to the selection of how we would promote 21 informations out of the reactors into the center.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would be expecting that f
23 some of that is already being done on lessons learned, people.
24 I hope our figuring out what kind of information --
Ac.
der 2 Reporters, tric.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
But I don't think they are looking l
12 RMG 2 1
at the technical details as to how you get the pipe back here 2
and put together and a computer.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
$300,000 seems like a lot 4
of money just to do the interior.
5 COMMISSIGNER AHEARNE:
To design -- it's not the 6
walls and stuff.
It's the actual what kind of pieces of 7
equipment do you want --
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Architectural is the wrong 9
language to use.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It's the right language in
- II electronics systems design.
I2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Y'es.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You know, like the systems 14 architect for a major communications system is the guy.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay, in that sense, yes.
But 16 not architectural in the sense of walls and plaster.
That's 17 part of it, but it is a relatively small part of it.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEAPNE:
Yes.
19 CHAIRHA?/ HENDRIE:
So this would be 300K to look 20 at how you put together a system in the response center and 21 the communicatio'n links to it, and what equipment you would 22 need, and how you lay that out, and what arrangements you 23 would need with the long lines people and the telephone 24 company people and -- that 's probably the way you would bring Ico Federd Reponers, Inc.
25 it in, and then there would be an equipment and administrative
13 RitG 3 1
support item in '81 to do it.
And I don't know how much to 2
estimate for the latter.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I just picked a number of 4
$3 million without any real basis.
5 CHAIRMAN:
Well, I expect that it could go higher 6
or lower.
I tell you, it is a lot like that $4 million 7
planning which for the Kement:' Commission and the Ragovin 8
results.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's right.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
$3000 for equipment and --
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
$3500.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Communication links, what that 13 would be to equipment, et cetera.
I don't know how we 14 straighten out these decision units in any rational way,'I 15 must say.
16 We are.not greatly apart on total numbers.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What are you coming up 18 with?
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, if they have located my 20 error --
21 MR. COOPER:
I come up with the 35 number also.
22 So I can't locate your error, because going down your numbers, 23 your numbers that you gave us come up to 935.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
How the heck did I do tk t?
ice.
een Reponen. Inc.
25 Just lucky, I guess.
l 14 RMG 4 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But the underlying question 2
to me is what kind of inspector program are we aiming at.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
4 MR. BARRY:
Are you 25 apart?
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, but the 25 is more 6
than that.
I got, I think, a few more fuel facilities than 7
Joe does.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Where did the unit 9
inspector program come from?
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It was a blessing of the Congress.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I know, but where did it IS. come from there?
i 13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, it based on some early 14 things saying we ought to upgrade the inspector, the resident 15 inspector program, and how would you do that?
16 Well, one way to do it, instead of having just one 17 fellow on a site sort of roaming the whole operation, add in 18 a person for each unit or something like that.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Which was an original idea 20 in the resident inspector program.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Which was one of the options in 22 the original program.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Which committee did it 24 stem from?
Acw rederC3 Reporters, Inc.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It came in on the House side.
15 RMG 5 1
COMMISSIONEP. AHEARNE:
It came out of the Udall 2
Committee, but it's my belief -- let me put it that way, that 3
is came from here to thcre.
4 COMMIESIONER GILINSKY:
I have a suspicious mind.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I'm not surprised at it, because 6
there is extensive communication at all levels, and what, 7
if their staff says, if you are going to buck it up, what 8
would be a good whack, and they say, well, and they came up 9
with 9
that had already been in the '80 budget, and 135 10 more or something like that -- 7 more.-
Il COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Basically, my belief is that 12 we ought to be expanding the onsite inspection program very J
13 strongly in favor of that, very strongly in having residents 14 on si+e.
I am uneasy about going to this more -- what seems 15 to me minibureaucracy there on site.
16 And I think it begins to cut away some of the 17 responsibility of some of those people that are there.
18 So I am not really sure whether we have thought 19 through the program completely to automatically stamp it.
So 20 I think it's a good idea te be increasing the number of j
21 incpectors and to have a healthier build-up rate, 22 But I think we are going to still need some --
23 several more months of thought to make sure that the people 24 are really confident that's the direction they k7nt to go,
' Ace, oderd Reporters, Inc.
25 as Victor's people are really confident that's the direction l
16 RMG 6 1
they want to go.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Unfortunately, we have got to 3
get something forward here.
And since the appropriation act 4
will go after we have sent the budget to OMB, our agency 5
base by Thanksgiving will be the 3034, which will include the 6
146 assigned to this office and mandated for onsite -- well, 7
things related to the onsite activities.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And I think a good case can 9
be made that a unit inspector program is one inspector per 10 unit.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, that is certainly one of 12 the layouts for it.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Even that is a fantastic
~
14 increase over what we hase now, and are heading for.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, let's see.
We have got 16 68 operating and a couple of fuel cycle facilities that we 17 cover, and a few construction sites -- 19 and 68 --
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And two fuel facilities --
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
87, 89 -- backed up by --
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
We don't, of course, don't 21 cover them all yet.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That's right.
That' would bs ' 81 23 before we got them all in place.
24 And I guess the number of sites is about -- these sc., w.c a.ponen, Inc.
25 days the number of active reactor sites is about 48 or 50, is
]
17 RMG 7 1
something like that.
So if you were covering it on the present 2
resident basis, it would be something like 48 reactor sites 3
or 46 or 47, something like that; 19 construction sites, 4
2 fuel cycle facilities, coming up somewhere around 68 or 70.
S So there isn' t that big a difference if you go 6
for an overall resident program which says one man, one unit 7
for operating reactors or one person, one unit for operating 8
reactors, then about 19 construction sites, 19, 20, 21 --
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right, because obviously 10 the only difference ends up being a number of sites.
~
II CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
2 or 3 or 4 unit sites.
I2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The pacing item from either 13 the old program or the new program are the rate at which you 14 can get people competent to be the sole person at the site or 15 tha senior person at the site.
Still, that individual, the 16 develapment of those people --
and #13 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
But that progr n is underway.
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Ace.aero n. porters, Inc.
25
-6332 14 01 18 kop i
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE People have been hired, are 3
being hired, have been trained, are being trained, adding 4
146 to that, really, it seems to me the 146 legitimately can 5
include a good deal of support in the regional offices and 6
headquarters as well.
7 (Commissioner Bradford entered the room at 2:05.)
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE For my money, it can include 9
part times, too.
10 MR. 00SSICK:
Here's a li ttle summary by category II of site, just to give you the totals. (handing document to 12 Chairman Hendrie )
105 si te s all together.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
For what year?
4 MR. 00SSICK:
Everything we've got on the books.
1,5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What year?
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No t by year, everything we have 17 on the books.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Everything we have on the 19 b ook s.
All sites under construction.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRI'E Yes.
If, right at this moment 21 we manned all sites for license plants, but not like 22 Humboldt, where there is one shut down unit tha t isn't going 23 anywheres, we would have 47 active reactor sites.
The cps 24 add about another 43 sites.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Tha t's all cps?
f
19
$3214b2 kop 1
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
I guess, because some of 2
the -- you see, you've got 90 -- some thing like 96, 92.
I 3
This says 96 but I thought it was 92.
But never mind, 96 or 4
92 cps, but some of those are second units or third units on 5
sites that are already counted previously.
This indicates 6
43 new sites.
Then the planned units, I don't know what to 7
make of those.
It's hard to say how many of those that are 8
planned will come through.
C I don't know how to shake this thing out, 10 f rankly.
Let's see, if I seem to be with my arithmetic 11 corrected at 935 and you seem to be at 9 --
12 MR. COOPER:
I can come up with a possible 13 explanation and that is the difference happens to be nine 14 positions, which happens to be what we did not get in the 15
'80 mark.
So I have a feeling you might have pushed off an 16
'80 that included the nine.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Look, we've got 715 in that 18 office right now, authorized.
19 MR. COOPER:
Co rrec t.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You've got 146 mandated by the 21 Congress.
That gives you 861.
22 MR. COOPER:
Right.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Now, the delta that I was 24 proposing for '8'l is indubitably 65 and if I add 65 to 861 I 25 come up to 926, I insist.
So what I propose is that my
20 J332 14 03 kcp i
base, my '79 base of 715 is correct, the 146 is in the 2
bloody law, or will be with a very high probability and the 3
increments, the deltas, in '81 that I have listed in fact 4
get me to 926.
I think the difficulty is just as you say.
5 Some of the base numbers that I took are out of whack by 6
those nine people that we didn't get in the original cut of 7
the '80 budget by the Congress.
And you ought to address 8
t ha t.
I'm just not sure how I came to crop it here.
It may 9
have been straight -- it may have been bad arithmetic.
I 10 don' t know.
Il COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No, it's because the table 12 that you're working f rom has an FY '80 number of 724 as the 13 base.
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And I may have taken -- yes, I 15 did.
You're absolutely right.
I can see right -- I can see 16 where several of it is.
I worked f rom that base instead of 17 the '79 base.
Okay.
So tha t's an easy correction.
18 MR. C.00PER :
All right.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE And that would bring me back 20 down to 926 as my estimate, against your 010.
I'll tell you 21 what.
Would you consider calling up Stello and saying 918, 22 figure ou t how you spread it?
l 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's fine, except there 1
l 24 are these two f undamental points embedded underneath it l
25 all.
One is Stello doesn't believe that f uel f acilities are
3351404 21 kep I
something that he really ought to be covering as extensively 2
as he has been and I think he ought to.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
But it's only two people, isn't 4
i t?
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
My number, though, includes 6
an increase.
I have added in an additional set of people 7
into that which he didn't have.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You've recovered the two he was 9
going to take out, and how many more would you put on the 10 station?
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would have given him six 12 more people into that decision unit over the 185 that he had 13 asked for, or rather, five people plus the three for the 14 mail handling, to give an eight total increase.
So I would 15 put five more focused on the f uel f acilities and spent fuel, 16 and then the other place we have this disagreement is what 17 program is his -- underlying his inspection program, his 18 training, his recrui. ting, his management?
Is it n pJus one 19 or n inspectors per site?
20 Now, the first difficulty is one that doesn't have 21 to be gotten out right now, with over 900 people to play 22 with he can obviously shift some around.
I think it is 23 important to decide which path we are going on for 24 inspectors.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
What are people's inclinations?
O
33'2 14505 22
. kcp i
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY On inspectors?
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
This question of one 3
reactor, one person, that's one rule.
A second rule would 4
be one senior person for each site plus a unit inspector for 5
each unit at the site.
That's sort of at the high end.
6 Ttere is a version in between that I suggested as a 7
possibility in which I had in mind not leaving a single --
8 any site with just one NRC person, which one be, n minus 9
one, total not to be less than two.
10 So, at one-unit sites we'd have twot two-unit 11 sites we'd have twos three-unit si te s, we'd have three, et 12 cetera.
13 (Commissioner Kennedy entered tae room at 2:12 14 p.m.)
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY Can't be n minus one?
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
This intermediate version was 17 two -- bu t, I don't know.
It seems to me any of these are 18 options, I think, and they all, it would seem to me --
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What would you do at a 20 construction site?
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Construction sites, I would 22 propose to have the present late stages of -- later stages i
23 of construction with a construction resident, and then to 24 give Vic a little flexibility as he has. requested he 1
25 wan ts --
i
332 14 06 23 kcp 1
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I have problems with that.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE. Why is that?
3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Because the problems tha t 4
we're seeing in construction are problems that are in the 5
QAQC programs at those sites and they originate f airly early 6
on in construction.
We are finding out about them.
7 Sometimes 50 percent of the way through the construction 8
job, when we should have found out about them a long time 9
before, both f rom our own point of view and it seems to me 10 even the --
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What happened at Marble 12 Hill today?
13 MR. GOSSICK:
Well the utility last night decided 14 to cease all saf ety-related construction in addition to the 15 concrete work until they were assured that they had a system 16 in place that would be satisf actory to meet our 17 requirements, and all that sort of thing.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Dick, Vic had a sort of a step 19 in that direction, saying he wanted several -- three was the 20 number he nominally tagged, construction residents available 21 for assignment at early construction stages at the first 22 sign of any difficulty of tha t kind on a site.
For 23 instance, Marble Hill would surely get one of those and you 24 might want to increase that number.
Whether all sites need 25 a resident f rom scratch, I don' t know.
.332 14 07 24 kop 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think that what Dick is 2
saying is that's coming sort of late in the day.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It means you have to develop 4
some trouble.
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
But if you're waiting until 6
you find out about the trouble you're not going to find out 7
about it until you're 50 percent your way through --
J 8
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY I think you really ought 9
to have an inspector there.
I don't know exactly at what
\\
10 point.
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY I guess if it were me, at 12 the time they started pouring some of those footings, 13 driving piles --
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The safety-related stuff.
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
-- from there on out I 16 would want somebody there, if not all the time, most of the 17 time.
And that's a long time, but that's when they start 18 doing -- f rom Day 1, they star t doing saf e ty-related stuf f,
19 pouring a lot of concrete, putting in a lot of rebar, doing 20 a lot of welding, and tha t's where we're having all the 21 troubles.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I inclin.e in that 23 direction.
I think there ought to be an inspector at a 24 construction site.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That's probably worth another
25 1
032 14 08 kop I
one.
40 --
2 MR. BARRY:
That's another job.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You know, there's a 4
diff erent kind of inspector that goes in there, and they're 5
not quite as hard to get as resident inspectors.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Tha t's probably true.
People 7
with construction backgrounds who might do this, I think may 4
8 be an easier hiring.
9 MR. BARRY:
Just on the preops inspection, in 10 other words, 18 months before f ueling on a unit inspector 11 basis, one for one.
In '80 you're going to have 98 12 inspectors and in '81, 108.
That's just preops, which I say 13 is 18 months before OL issues, you're going to have 98 14 inspectors on location at tha t point.
l.5 If you go back now, another couple of years to I6 when you start pouring concretes, you're probably talking --
17 you're probably right, another 50, 150 inspectors.
- Now, 18 eventually you're going to have -- what? -- about 19 90-some-odd under construction?
Eventually you're going to 20 have those guys with no construction to do, and you're going 21 to be out here with operating reactors with 90-some 22 inspectors out there because you're going.to have --
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY That's a problem with the 24 whole agency.
25 MR. BARRY:
You're going to be out there and all
$32 14 09 26 kcp I
of a sudden all the construction is finished and now you're 2
going to have -- because you're going to cover, as I say, 3
preops you're going to cover 108 guys in '81, you're going 4
to have a surplus of inspectors in about five years.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Of construc tion inspectors.
6 MR. BARRY:
Yes, of construction inspec tors.
7 COMMISSIONER OILINSKY:
I don't know --
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I guess I would rather have 9
a surplus of construction inspectors five years f rom now 10 than too few next year, and right now my view is there are
.11 too few.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would have no problem 13 with going toward pushing the unit inspector down earlier in 14 con s truc tion, in construction time.
15 Einf 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
I 27 CR6332.15 RMG 1 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That isn't necessarily the 2
same person.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would say it is almost 4
necessarily not the same person.
5 But as I understand from Stello, even for the later 6
stages, it is not planned to be the same person.
But that's 7
still -- that adjusts the numbers, but it doesn't affect what 8
I think still is a fundamental question:
Are we going towards 9
one per unit, or one per site plus one per unit?
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It seems to me Joe's scheme 1
11 is a reasonable maximum.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It is a reasonable beginning.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I was going to say, for 14 the time being.
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes, and if it looks like, 16 you know, it would be beneficial to add that one extra guy 17 later, that could easily be done.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
There is tomething 19 to be said for --
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
But for me it is a good 21 beginning.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It is a larger program than the 23 one per unit.
We are back talking for operating sites now.
24 Larger by the number of single unit sites.
Ace rederJ Reporters, Inc.
25 Norm, you want to see if you can figure out how
28 RMG 2 1
many single unit sites there are and get an idea of what the 2
delta is?
3 MR. BARRY:
In '80 you will have 23 single unit 4
sites.
26 in '81.
So --
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The program is getting big 6
enough, so it is almost getting into --
7 40R. BARRY:
So on that basis, 2 per site, you would 8
need another 23 inspectors.
Plus you would need -- plus you 9
are going to have to have some clerks in there.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me ask:
What is reasonably.,
11 doable within the 146?
12 MR. BARRY:
On the basis of one to one, or on the 13 minimum of two per site?
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, whichever basis.
Start 15 with 146.
Would that be --
16 MR. BARRY:
Cn the minimum of 2 per site, you would 17 be all right with 861 in '80.
But in '81 you would have to 18 go to 959.
Now, that's preops only.
That's not beyond preops.
19 If you go to one for one, one inspector, one unit, 20 you could get along with 830 people in '80, and 921 in '81.
21 So you still have to go up beyond 861 in
'81.
22 Now, that does no-addre9s some of the increases in 23 other decision units h a _ paissioner Ahearne was talking 24 about.
Oc=.derd Reporters, Inc.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But it does pick up 14 in PATo
29 RMG 3 1
MR. BARRY:
But it does pick up 14 in PAT, 14 in 2
PAT that you re ally don 't need.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, he was willing to defer that<
4 MR. BARRY:
I'm sorry, it does pick up 14 in PAT, S
right.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would defer that.
7 MR. B ARRY :
If you would defer that, you would have 8
14 more people you could put on construction sites.
So with 9
the one on one, you could do all the sites back through pre-10 operational, fuel in '81, an6:921 people.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We are talking about a 12 total of how many reactors here in the construction operation?'
13 170, something like that?
14 MR. BARRY:
A total number of units back through 15 preops of 108.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
All the way back to 17 start of construction?
18 MR. BARRY:
I don't know.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It is something like 68 operating, 20 92 or 96 in construction nominally.
However, that number has 21 already bome back, because there have been several postponements 22 and outright cancellation of plants with construction projects, 23 at least 4r or 5 on the cancellation side, and then several --
24 MR. BARRY:
You are probably right in the original Ace rederC) Reporters, Inc.
25 number when you said about 48 would be beyond preops.
So you
30 RMG 4 1
probably are pretty close.
2 MR. GOSSICK:
In '81 it would be a total of about 3
90 under construction.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So we will have 160 or 5
something units.
6 (Commissioner Bradford departs at 2:25 p.m.)
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Still, we have got something 8
like five persons in I&E per unit total, some in there for the 9
fuel cycle but not all that much.
10 It seems like having somebody at the site is a 11 reasonable investment.
Is there enough for them to do at the 12 beginning of construction?
13 MR. BARRY:
I suppose you will have some sites where 14 you will have one finished and one under construction, or two 15 under construction, maybe two finished and a third under 16 construction.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I take it that the earlier stages 18 of construction -- I don't think there is so much to do for 19 the site man.
There is really more for the reachin to do 20 over agrange of specialties.
I don't know that I would put 21 a construction resident in right at the beginning if you want 22 to begin to cover significant parts of the safety related 23 construction.
24 If you bolster the regional forces a little bit, C.
RCD Reporters, Inc.
25 they can cover the footing -- the early footing safety related
i i
31
. RMG 5 1
footing and piling work done on a visitation basis.
2 It's not too bad.
You know, you make a -- you get 3
ready for a pour and you dig down and the feed water and you 4
get the rebar in, and then there comes a time when the folks 5
ought to come out, somebody ought to come out and watch them 6
pour footings.
But, you know, he didn't have to be there 7
really continuously to get a good check before that.
8 And then after that there will be a period before 9
some other further, you know, long prep, and then a pour, a 10 prep and then a pour.
II For these earlier stages, why, I guess I am not 12 convinced that an onsite person would be all that useful 13 to be engaged continuously and that you couldn't cover that 14 adequately from the regional office.
15 The construction manpower onsite as it begins to 16 build up, then you come to a place where indeed there is enough 17 going on, there is enough safety related so that it then becomes:
18 much more useful to have a continuous presence.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
My impression is if you have 20 a guy onsite, he just learns things that inspectors coming,:
21 visiting, just aren't going to know.
People come up and talk 22 to him --
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, that's true.
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
He gets a sort of general y
non... =
25 feel for the way the operation is being conducted and supervised..
32 RMG 6 1
And in the last analysis, that's what it is probably all about.
2 It is that supervision, and get a feeling, icn1 know, for 3
somebody running a pretty good show, or somebody running a 4
little sloppy one.
5 You have got to feel for the way things are likely 6
to go, and you can keep your eyes open to get things under 7
control.
But you can't do that from dropping in, you know, 8
on occasion.
9 You are right about those early pours and so on, 10 the guy onlyDhas to'be there, you know, a day or two while II they are actually doing the pouring to see what the quality 12 of the concrete is and the aggregate that went into it and all 13 the rest.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
He could be reviewing 15 materials licensing in the meantime.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess we are all in favor 17 of resident inspectors.
So the question is, what number ought 18 we to propose for the budget?
I am willing to go with Joe's 19 proposal of no more than -- no less than two.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me cut it back a little bit, 21 because what I have got in mind is the foll6 wing:
I am a little 22 worried about the sort of manpower numbers that are going to 23 turn out of this if we get too expansive.
24 Let me try this -- as they say in the advertising go.
ercs Reporters, Inc.
25 business, we will run it up and see if it makes a good-looking
33' RMG7 1
flag.
2 If we started along a line of one person, one unit, 3
for operating reactors, that would leave enough leeway in the 4
146, I suspect, to push back down the time sequence on the 5
construction site.
And what you do, since you aren't outfitting 6
them all all the way back, you look for sensitive ones, 7
Marble Hill types, for the early implementation.
8 And that would surely -- we could see what the 146 9
looks like against that kind of a program, see how far back 10 down you can push on the construction.
11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What's the 146 number?
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That's what Congress is cramming 13 in in '80, you remember, as an amendment to the '80 appropria,
14 tion?
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Okay.
So what we are talking 16 about here is '807 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, at the moment, yes.
18 Then, for '81 we could ask, okay, what do you need 19 as an increment in this resident -- overall resident program 20 in '81 to keep it going?.
And then for things outside the 21 resident program, fuel facilities and reactor and some of the 22 other aspects here, the IAEA and whoever, who knows what --
23 we can see what we want to do about those.
24 But it is awful late in the cycle to sort of retread yc....ders n.coners, inc.
l end #15 25 the whole damn thing, I must say.
i
CR 6332 #16 MIMI/PV 34 I
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think that is a reasonable 2
approach, and i l' ink we'll end up with somewhere around 900 --
3 between 915 anta 935.
4 CHAIRMAN dENDRIE:
I suspect that's the way it's going 5
to come out.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So why don't you give that 7
guidance and put a program together and name it "920."
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Something like that, yes.
9 Let me, if I may, cite, and other people can add if 10 they wish, a couple of sort of what I will c'all "small incre-Il ment ups and downs."
My comment on the plus-6 for headquarters 12 to man the phones is that I don't quite understand that.
You 13 want a duty officer who is senior enough and been around enough I4 to know what to do when he gets a call at 3:00 a.m. in the 15 morning, and just hiring six people in isn't going to do that.
I0 It seems' to me that that's an onerous coverage out I7 there, but it has to be maintained, and it will have to be 18 simply rotated among what I would guess is a group cf -- let's 19 see, I&E headquarters group is like what, in total?
120 or 20 something like that?
21 MR. GOSSICK:
120, 130, somewhere in that category.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Probably 75 nonprofessionals.
23 Well, what I am getting around to is there is probably 24 a group, 20, 25 I&E officers in the headquarters group whom I Ac6..derd Reporters, Inc.
25
pv2 35
'I would regard as of sufficient seniority and maturity to be man-2 ning it.
Maybe a little larger than that.
It seems to me that 3
tha t --
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think Vic was hoping to bring 5
in some similar senio.r-type reactor-knowledgeable pecpie to beef 6
the headquarters up.
7 MR. GOSSICK:
I think this requires those people that 8
are now doing it to do some of the stuf f that they would 9
normally have done that's not getting done.
I think -- I don't 10 think the six people that he is now going to hire would pre- -
Il sumably be the people that would necessarily be doing this duty.
12 MR. BARRY:
You've got the night shift plus the 13 weekends,both.
I4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
John was going to go for it, and 15 there seems to be sympathy for it.
I would say "Okay" on the 16 plus-six.
17 On training, I continue to think, by the time we 18 take a group of 14 and add 11 or something like that,to it, out 19 of the 146, you've got 25 people doing full-time training.
And 20 I must say I don't see any reason for that to go up in '91.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Since I was at 20, I wouldn't 22 have any problems going with 25.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The vendor program I hold at 29.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's okay with me.
&w. wwd Rgorurs. im 25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What do they propose?
l
032 16 01 36 pv i
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
They wanted to add three in 2
'81.
3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Let me point out I think 4
the problem that we have go.'. in the inspection business 5
begins with the vendors, and if we really want to get on top 6
or the situation, if we want safety-related stuff to get in 7
there as saf e ty-related stuff, then we're going to have to 8
spend more time looking at vendors than we have been doing 9
up to now.
10 MR. BARRY:
I think the three would go frm the 11 foreign manuf acturers to the A&E.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Does this include the AEs?
13 MR. BARRY:
Three is to go to the AEs t it's to 14 bring that in.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's allow the three there.
i 16 Up under fuel f acilities and material saf ety, my 17 view wa's that the increment pro posed in '81 to keep the mail 18 and telephone program going for licensees that aren't 19 otherwise tagged, is a usef ul base-touching.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I would keep that in.
He 22 wanted 14 for emergency planning. purposes, and I&E clearly 23 will have an expanded function out there in all kinds of 24 ways f or tha t.
I would go for that.
25 MR. BARRY:
So, let's see, our mark was 174?
37 J32 16 02 pv i
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE Well, I also added eight for
~
2 case growth, and since we're going to have more residents 3
involved here, I don't know whether it's justified to keep 4
that up or not.
The operations and the reactor construction 5
are pretty well covered by this resident increase.
That is, 6
they underestimated their workload in the contruction, they 7
think, by 21 man years per year.
On the other hand, if 8
you're going tc start putting more residents out there, why, 9
I think tha t begins to take that up.
10 So, I regard, f or the operations and construction
.11 decision units, that they get sorted cyt in the terms that 12 we have previously described as a first-cut program.
13 And finally, on this saf eguards unit, I would be 14 inclined to put in the three in '81 to help implement the 15 I AEA inspec tion of U.S. f acilities, and knock the rest that 16 were proposed.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The only diff erences on 18 tha t list -- and,.of course, there is still a sizeable chunk 19
-- is what ends up happening in the reactor operations.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, we don't have numbers.
21 All we've got is kind of a crude -- crudely spoken summary 22 plan.-
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right.
On the fuel 24 f acility and materials safety, I think, in '81 I don't see 25 why with the numbers they can't do it.
But they should
c)32 16 03 38 pv i
continue, I think, to plan on covering the fuel f acilities 2
that they've got covered.
And I think they're going to have i
3 more business --
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
With residents, those two are 5
going to pull the residents in.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
And I think they're going 7
to have more business in inspecting spent fuel than they 8
seem to think they're going to have, spent f uel shipments.
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Spent f uel shipments?
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
There you have to --
11 it seems to me that as we go to tighter regime on where the 12 shipments go and more and more interest on the casks, I&E's 13 workload is just going to increase.
14 MR. BARRY:
We be tter f ence in the f uel f acility.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I don't think they're being 16 realistic.
I can understand the TMI impacts and having them 17 focus so severely upon operating reactors, but I think IS they're missing something.
19 MR. BARRY:
Does that mean, then, that we should 20 f ence the f uel f acility material saf ety number?
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDYs No, no.
What he's saying 22 is that he thinks it ought to be larger..Right?
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, I had ei,ght in there for 25 sort of workload growth, and I don't know how much of that i
l
332 16 04 39
'pv i
turns out to be the things you have cited in addition.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The number is right, and I 3
would direct it in a diff erent direction.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
5 MR BARRY:
-So, your number is what?
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
My number is 28 in there.
7 MR. BARRY:
28 over the 146?
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
9 MR. BARRY:
I?4.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
We're going to have people 11 running out of our ears.
On the dollars, now that we're 12 talking, in f act, about some kind of a resident layout that 13 really has a lot of people in it, wha t I would propose to do 14 on the dollars is to -- for '81 -- to stano at the 6691.
15 That is, not take any reductions on that.
That was still a 16 sort of final number to the Commission af ter the EPO markup 17 and so on.
So, you can work right off his viewgraph in his 18 layout.
Do you want the numbers?
You can take them off his 19 viewgra ph.
Okay?
20 MR. 00SSICK:
Yes.
21 MR. BARRY:
A total of 6691, which is program 22 suport and equipment.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
In the '80 supplement, I 24 see 100 for f uel f acility and material saf etyt 100 for 25 management direction and support.
That's the 200 you had in
i
$32 16 05 40 l
pv i
your summary.
And, in addition, let's say, 300K for this 2
study of the response center -- should I call it a " system 3
study" of the response centers that is, planning --
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Systems engineering.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Systems engineering, which 6
includes both physical layout, but, more importantly, the 7
communica tion s.
8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What response center?
)
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Ours.
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Ours?
We already did that.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, I think it has to --
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
John is looking forward to 13 getting some planning under way so that if we want to bring 14 in reactor data, that we begin to have an idea what the 15 layout needs to be, what the equipment is, what the 16 commun!. cations links look like, and what it all costs; then 17 we can chuck in -- and we've proposed to chuck in a piece of 18 money in '81 as a sort of, to use the phrase, planning 19 wedge.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I think it was Mitre that 21 did a study, and I think it was $250,000 or some such 22 n umbe r.
Now, it didn't have in mind handling reactor data, 23 but it had in mind a great deal of what was already dono and 24 a great deal that was not done.
25 MR. GOSSICK:
They addressed communications, but
--4
.m
,,-w
--,--y
I h3d1606 41 i' pv i
not the kind, as you say --
j 2
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It did not address that?
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The bulk of what we're talking 4
about here, Dick, is an e: ectronic systems guy who can look l
5 at the options for bringing in some reactor parameter data.
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
What about bringing it in?
7 Tha t's ea sy.
What to do with it when you've got it is what f
the hard part is.
j 9
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That was the base.
Len thinks 10 that if we want to add this item, it ought to be program 11 support under I&E.
The subsequent development of the stuff 12 at the center would be down under equipment administrative 13 su pport.
14 MR. BARRY:
We put it in the supplementali didn't 15 we?
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
We put 300 in the 17 supplemental, and put it in I&E so the I&E piece becomes 18 500.
And then, in '81, in order to have some equipment and 19 other kinds of dollars against it, why, the guess is to cram 20
$3 million in there.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
$3 million?
22 MR. BARRY:
That's a lot of equipment.
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That's a good, round guess.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, John made, as I 25 understand it, a carefully de tailed estimate.
232 16 07 42
'pv i
(Laughte r. )
2 COMMISSIONER iARNE:
Come on there, Joe.
That's 3
not what I said.
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY Let me just vote "No."
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
He rolled his eyes at the 6
ceiling and came up with that.
I thought it was a pre tty 7
good number.
8 MR. BARRY:
How about the bo ttom line on people?
9 If we added them all up now, they wouldn't come up to 920.
10 Whatever you and Commissioner Ahearre --
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The guess is that they may not 12 come up -- that they.ought not to come up greatly 13 different.
They may come up a rew more, but if he takes 14 that as a sort of an initial ain.ing point and then see how 15 it comes out, why, see what it looks like.
16 MR. BARRY:
Initially, in point of what?
9207 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
18 MR. BARRY:
That's what I need, because we've got 19 him locked into decision units, we've got him locked into 20 everything except operating construction reactors.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
If it's 920, how many 22 people does that allow for the reactor inspectors?
Because 23 the numbers I have been hearing suggest that it was going to 24 be higher than 920.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I t's a pre tty good cut, Dick.
332 16 08 43 pv I
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I will decide that af ter I 2
hear the numbers.
3 MR. BARRY:
Well, for reactor operation inspectors 4
and related support --
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
No, I am talking about the 6
on-site inspec tors.
7 MR. BARRY. O h, it would allow for one guy per 8
unit --
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
You're sure that 920, given 10 all the adds that we just went down this list on --
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Plus we took some 12 subtracts.
13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
No t many.
We gave a lot 14 more adds than subtracts.
15 MR. BARRY:
920 in '81 would allow for 108 units 16 to have a unit inspector on there.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Actually m aybe more, 18 because tha t number had the 14 --
19 MR. BARRY:
Tha t ha s the 14 half-team people.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It's not quite certain yet, 2i Len, because there were some pluses and minuses with respect 22 to this table.
You really have got to see what Stello comes 23 out with.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You see about 920.
25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I have get to see the
D32 16'09 44 pv 1
numbers.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And in relaying this 3
instruction to Vic, I don't propose 920 as some sort of an
^
4 inexorable ceiling, but rather as aii oi..:.ing point, because I 5
came out at 926 with 338 people in that reactor operations 6
hunk.
7 MR. BARRY:
And another 169 in reactor 8
construction.
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
179.
10 MR. BARRY:
I am sorry.
179.
.11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
How many are in there now?
12 MR. BARRY:
245 construction, two or three in 13 operations.
So, you're going up 135 in reactor operations, 14 and you're going up 30-some odd in construction.
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
You're going up 135. in 16 reactor operations?
You're not going up 100 plus on sites?
17 MR. BARRY:
The reason for the big increase is 18 most of them are going on-site.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY But it isn't going to be 20 100 and some.
Well, all I want to know is I want to see the 21 numbers.
22 MR. BARRY:
Okay.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE But it may not be too much out 24 of whack, because between those two decision units it looks 25 like there is about 170 people for this-purpose that can be
$32 16 10 45 pv i
spread around in there.
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Well, look, as precisely as 3
we have been cu tting half-bodies and all the rest of them, 4
this is the one which needs the attention the most.
And I 5
guess I want to see the numbars in detail before I will 6
agree.
7 MR. BARRY:
You want to see how he will spread 920 8
people.
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I want -- the chairman just 10 said 920 was not the target number, he wanted to get the li instructions that have been given about what we want and 12 then we will see what the numbers are.
If they are more 13 than 920, so be it.
My gue ss is they're going to be more 14 than 920.
Now, that's the way I understood what the 15 chairman said.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I was just saying that the 920 17 appeared to me to have an -- to be about the right size to 18 come out.
I said tell him to target on this, but it's not a 19 limit, an inexorable limitt if he thinks he needs more, why, 20 come down -- to go up.
But I am interested at about that 21 level, and how f ar down on the construction sites he gets in 22 the 80, you know, sort of the year '80 '81 time f rame.
l 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
With putting one in a unit.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
I don't think you get all 25 the construction sites, you know, all the way back down to
46 332 16'll pv i
the eatly starts, but I would be interested to see how far 2
- het would go.
That may be a tough calculation.
You better 3
get through to him.
4 Look, I am going to break promptly at 3:30 and 5
turn to TMI-1.
What do you say we take a cut at it, and 6
maybe the time is.too short to do the Commission offices.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
By the way, were you 8
talking about a cut f rom their requests or from the EDO 9
number?
10 COMMISSIONER AHre.RNE:
I was talking about a cut 11 f rom their request.
My point is research has just so many, 12 many contracts that it would be a more useful approach, 13 given if you're going to take about this much out, rather 14 than have a reclaimer for all the ones that would be taken 15 out, one would be proposed if that had to come out.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But the EDO numbers is a 17 good deal less than 15 percent.
18 MR. GOSSICK:
As a matter of fact, i t comes out 19 within a million dollars of the 15 percent cut, i
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh, it does?
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
How abou t admin?
The first i
23 thing we have agreed is that in the process of the hiring of 24 people in NRR and AE, they pass back the five slots to 25 Donoghue so that he gets back to the 280 base, which -- f rom
+
m
332 16'12 J
pv 1
which he surrendered f f.ve to aid the emergency situation in 2
N RR.
From that base, the proposal is to go to nothing on 3
the supplement and plus-26 in '81, to a total of 306.
4 The layout of the -- of where they all go is a 5
couple of pages over in the book.
6 7
8 9
10 12 lb 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
48 CR6332.17 RMG 1 1
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Wants 4 in division facilities 2
and operations support; 2 ADPs; 14 in contracts; 2 in O&P, 3
whatever that may be; 3 in Rules and Records; and 1 in Security.
4 Do you really need 14 in contracts?
5 MR. DONOGHUE:
Well, 2 of them are restoration of 6
the 2 that were cut inthe '80.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:.To be sure.
8 MR. DONOGHUE:
Yes, I think that's essential 9
to do the full range of contracting that we are going to have 10 to do.-
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is FTP?
12 MR. BARRY:
Full time permanents.
13 MR. GOSSICK:
Yes, we want to head home and to get
'14 in on reviewing the task orders going to the labs as well as 15 part of the total process, the GAO report, and we just can't 16 do it on the strength we have got.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
GAO is what Senator Hart 18 has already got?
19 MR. GOSSICK:
Right.
l 20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
My inclination was in fact to 1
21 try for the 26; getting administrative support in this shop 22 is one of the toughest things we seem to go up against.
23 I am willing to try for it.
24 MR. GOSSICK:
You might just note, not that there ces
.ral Reporters, Inc.
25 is any immediate prospect that we will need to recall them --
49 RMG 2 1
there were 10 spaces that came out of security, right out of 2
Admin to go to NRR.
That other 5 is on the access business.-
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
But that's gone.'
4 MR. GOSSICK:
Yes, it seems to have.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think actually it was 4.
6 MR. GOSSICK:
Yes, I guess it was.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No, I take it back.
8 MR. GOSSICK:
No,'it was 5.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is technical informatiort 10 and -- (unandible)
II MR. DONOGHUE: They handle the document, the file 12 rooms, the document distribution, the technical information 13 activities involving the composition of the NUREGs, the selling 14 of them, the interface with the Government Printing Office, 15 National Technical Information Service.
They run the automated 16 document retrieval system with the TERA contract.
It is 17 really the paper managers of the agency -- printing, graphics, 18 the whole thing.
The libraries --
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Libraries are in there?
20 MR. DONOGHUE:
Yes, sir.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Where are the public 22 document rooms?
23 MR. DONOGHUE:
The local public document rooms are 24 under the Division of Rules and Records.
aca., _
r.i Reporters, iric.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I guess if I had to shave that
i 50 RMG 3 1
I would shave a few off the contract group.
But what's your 2
pleasure?
3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I would go with the list the 4
way you had it in the first place.
26.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
To go to 26, where did you 6
shave?
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's see.
I don't know that 8
I shaved one.
9 MR. GOSSICK:
Administrative 306.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It says 280, not 282?
II MR. GOSSICK:
It shouldn't be 280.
Literally, 12 the '79 ceiling remained unaffected.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You did not go for. the 14 3 --
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
In the plain English, no.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I guess I would go for --
17 I would add those additional 3, and I would propose adding 18 someone to the Federal Womens Program.
I9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Is that in here?
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It's in Donohue's.
2I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Do you feel the need of an 22 additional person in the Federal Womens Program?
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think so.
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I am asking Dan, since he is 1
Ace-rederd Reporters, Inc.
25 responsible for it at the moment.
51 MRG 4 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I thought we were.
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
We're responsible for 3
everything, but he's immediately responsible.
DONOGHUE??? 4 I didn't request that position.
I saw the growth 5
of the EEO office (inaudible).
6 I think some relationship, some balance between 7
that office and the total EEO effort, to increase that I think 8
would create a disproportionate situation in terms of 9
resources being applied to the total EEO picture.
10 The office does need some part-tbne clerical II assistance, which I think I can accommodate within my own 12 resources.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You can?
14 MR. DONOGHUE:
Yes, sir.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So that you will be able to, 16 say, allocate half a secretary or something?
17 MR. DONOGHUE:
I don't, despite the claims that 18 have been made from time to time, that there is any problem 19 in getting secretarial or clerical assistance there.
It is 20 a question of somebody would like to have a full-time, 21 totally devoted ' effort.
And I just don't think it is necessary.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Be the only person or secretary 23 in the organization.
24 MR. DONOGHUE:
Yes.
Ace Word Reporters, Inc.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Then I guess on that basis,
52 RMG S 1
then I would go with the plain English, plus the 26.
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIL:
I've got a 29, a 26, a 26.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Guess I am looking at 4
different chart.
That's a 306, right?
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I will go.
7 John, you are overruled on plain English.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes, I got that.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Can't we just issue a 10 directive telling everyone to speak and write plain English,:-
11 that this will now be the official language in this agency?
12 (Laughter.)
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The reason they are not doing 14 it is that they don't want to.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
We will get little signs that 16 say Write Right and paste them up.
We could do that for a 17 few hundred dollars.
18 Okay, plus 26 to 306.
19 Question of the conversion of temporary personnel, 20 whether 146 at issue here --
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
146 or 156?
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
46, because there were 10 ACRS 23 fellows there that are legitimately on the temporary list.
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Okay.
Good.
Sm...smI Rummn, loc.
1 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And the 146 are spread out in a i
53 RMG 6 1
number of offices.
Most of them in administration, but a pair 2
in inspection and enforcement, 3 in the ACRS office, 3
Comptroller 3, international programs 3, general counsel has 4
got 1, the secretary of the Commission has got 5, state programs 5
1, executive legal director 1.
6 Now, these are all -- I am assured -- full-time 7
temporaries, that in fact have been on -- we are talking 8
about jobs here whehe the same people ace been filling so-calledj F
9 temporary jobs for more than a year.
/rd we just have a hell 10 of a time getting any attention to this OMP.
11 MR. DONOGHUE:
The jobs are full time requirements.
12 They are not temporary jobs in the sense that they have been 13 assigned and then will go away.
14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
We are not', however, closing 15 ou& &he temporaries.
16 MR. BARRY:
The temporary temporaries.
17 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
The real temporary temporaries,
18 the ones that are here for a few weeks or a few months or a 19 few days a week, and that's part time.
20 MR. DONOGHUE:
No, we would expecc to get some 21 corresponding decrease in our temporary ceiling, but it would
(
22 not be a total decrease.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
This is --
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
These are permanent employees scD..aeral Reporters, Inc.
f.
25 who are temporary.
54 RMG 7 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
These are the permanent 2
employees that primarily because of their lower grade we have 3
not put them in for one reason or another --
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let's see.
We put them in, 5
we raise the question at least -- did we put them in last 6
year, or did we give up?
7 MR. BARRY:
Last year we gave up.
The year before 8
we tried to go in with a 40-man program, 10 per year, and 9
they wouldn't approve it.
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Back in 1975 we tried it.
II MR. BARRY:
We tried 25 that year.
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
And they wouldn't even talk 13 to us.
'14 COM31ISSIONER AHEARNE:
And I think we ought to try 15 agdin.
16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I think we ought to do it.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Good.
With rousing acclaim.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
As I mentioned before when I9 that issue arises at OMB, I would like to go over there and 20 argue with them.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You think you can do that 22 better than the Comptroller?
23 COMMISSIONED KENNEDY:
Or at least two of the 24 previous chairmen, who obviously didn't work at it hard enough.
E).
.rd) Reporters, Inc.
l 25 MR. COOPER:
There would be one difference this l
55 R'G 8 1
year, that is, that we would include it in the budget.
M 2
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
e 3
MR. COOPER:
That would be a difference.
f 4
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
I think that's good.
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I think that's a good idea.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Now, with regards to headquarters, 7
administrative support, I am not sure on what the numbers 8
should be.
9 But I think it is composed of Office of Administration 10 matters together with admisistrative costs from I&E and out 11 in the regional offices and so on, so there is an overall 12 number that one needs tc deal with here.
s 13 And what I would propose to you, because this is
'14 full of arcane items, that you might want to deal with it 15 by exception in the follosing sense:
1 16 To talk about some of the setaside in administrative
'l 17 support -- you know, I don't:know there is a great deal of I
18 use in us arguing about transportation of persons, trans-19 portation of things, equipment rental, and communication --
20 you have got to pay the phone bill, rental of buildings and 21 space -- you have got to pay the rent --
i 22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Having looked at some of 23 the buildings, I must say I don't know why that follows.
24 (Laughter.)
fre-stal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. BARRY:
I can assure you chat the admin support i
56 RMG 9 1
and budget has been thoroughly scrubbed.
2 CHAIRMAN !!ENDRIE:
Maybe a little too much.
I am 3
worried about the ADP services number in there, and I want 4
tc talk about that.
5 MR. BARRY:
Except we do have put back into this 6
setaside, such as the document retrieval -- you have increased 7
the ADP by $2.5 million, so you put back in by previous action 8
several things which pushes it up.
9 I think those were the only areas that we are a 10 little bit tight on.
II COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
When am I going to get my 12 cost analysis paper on the ADP?
13 MR. DONOGHUE:
That's being worked on.
I will give
' Id you a date.
They are working on it.
It is a question of 15 really getting reactions from the other offices.
16 MR. BARRY:
Now, we should again --
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
What I want to do now is --
18 I think all of these items -- GSA guard services, you know, 19 we are not going to argue about.-
Okay, let's go past that.
20 If you have Dan Donoghue's handout of the other 21 day, by any chance, if you turn to the last slide in it, 22 there is a short tabulation of setasides which are some 23 decision points that add and subtract $2 and $3 million 24 increments to the administrative support budget, and I think
. At Jord Reporters, Inc.
25 end #17 we ought to just try to decide on some of those.
57 CR6332.18 RMG1 I
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
What should we do, what should 2
we do with ISIS?
3 MR. BARRY:
At the moment, you have a paper where 4
you have, I think, 4/5 approval on ISIS in respect to '81.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You mean in respect to 6
going out for an RFP?
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The layout here, Len or Dan, 8
with $2 million showing in fiscal '80, that's incorrect.
It 9
starts at $2.7 million in '81, and then $3, and then $2.6; 10 right?
U MR. BARRY:
Right.
I2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Good.
So scratch out that 13
$2.080 million under ISIS.
14 I wondered --
15 MR. BARRY:
Here is the ISIS schedule.
I0 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I refuse to accept another 17 paper.
18 (Laughter.)
II MR. BARRY:
That's better than saying you didn't 20 give me the right information.
2I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
On that basis that we seem to 22 be -- with ISIS it seems to me that one has to decide whether 1
23 to be hung on the short horn or the long horn of the cow.
24 Have I voted for it; does anybody know?
Aa Aers neoorters. Inc.
25 MR. BARRY:
Yes, you did.
58 RMG 2 1
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I did?
In that case, I propose 2
that it get stuck into the budget, and if it eventually gets --
3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I voted for it, too.
4 MR. BARRY:
- Yes, sir.
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Then I vote for it being 6
in the' budget.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: /If it gets voted down, then 8
we take it back down.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am for it being includsd 10 in the budget, because I think we ought to be going down the...
11 development path, but I am very anxious to see this analysin 12 that is goi.ng to --
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
That is, your view may 14 be to come a little closer to it, you would want to use the 15
$2.7 million on a different system that wasn't called ISIS 16 but served the purpose.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I still come down on the 18 side of concern.
When you have got one government agency 19 that is running a large computer center, and you decide its 20 a lot, lot cheaper if you run your own --
21 MR. BARRY:
I am not sure it is going to come out 22 cheaper.
Let me say two things:
23 One, let's assume that you could get --
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It's in the budget, sit down, bee. moral Reporters, Inc.
25 (Laughter.)
.)
59 RMG 3 1
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Next item, document controls t
2 systems.
3 MR. BARRY:
But you have got a problem yet.
1 l
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The proposal on the document 5
control system was to crank that forward in time to ask for it 6
in the '80 supplement, half of it in the '80 supplement and 7
half of it in ' 81 instead of, what, '81 '82?
8 MR. DONOGHUE:
Yes.
The backfit, the number 9
of plants that NRR is requesting.
And also, part of it is the 4
10 request from the Three Mile Island investigation.
II CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
You remember Harold's 12 comment about getting plant information updated in the files, 13 that they were luckt.in some respects on the Unit II out of 1
14 Three Mile.
They located some decks and one thing or another i
15 that allowed some runs to be made -- if it had been another 16
+
plant not updated, you maybe wouldn't have been in very good 17 shape there.
13 I find that a persuasive sort of argument, and I 19 recommend that it go into the administrative support item.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Agree.
21 CHAIR'AN HENDRIE:
I see nods; we will do it.
M 22 This unit inspection administration costs -- I 23 am not sure what that is.
24 MR. DONOGHUE:
That's 145.
24=,.aerd Recorwes, Inc.
25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
It's $1 million per year, '81
60 RGM 4 1
for '83 --
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Look, we have decided to go 3
ahead and crank forward on our resident inspector program 4
that covers unitc and more of the sites under construction 5
to a greater degree.
And you are going to have to have 6
administrative costs.
Whatever is the appropriate number, 7
put it in.
8 And I think -- on the travel is for the same purpose, 9
So I would say do that.
10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
This travel is for the same 11 business?
Fine.
12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
There is one more item that 13 isn't listed here, and then there may be people that will think 14 of others.
15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Don't encourage that.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I know.
17 I sas a little worried the other day in looking 18 down the great list of administrative support items.
Under 19 ADP services, this is under the' Office of Administration, 20 administrative support summary, the one that lists the guide:;
21 services, the rent, the phone bills, and everything else.
22 Remember there was a discussion about whether in 23
'81, in view of the rising costs of computer time.--
24 remember this was the meeting where Charlie Troutman was here --
Ace.derd Reporters, Inc.
25 and we were worrying about whether in fact the $8 million is
61 RMG 5 1
going to be able to buy the computer time that NRR thinks it 2
is going to need.
And I think there are people in NRR that 3
think it isn't going to hack it.
4 And I think my impression was that Charlie wasn't 5
very sure he was going to manage it, either, because it all 6
depends upon how much computing they want to do.
7 But I don' t know, it looked like in that $8 million -
8 MR. BARRY:
NRR wants another $2.5 million.
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
How much?
10 MR. BARRY:
Another $2.5 million.
II CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think we had better crank 12 it in.
This budget isn't going to get any larger than this, 13 it is much more likely to get smaller.
.I4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Are they -- it wasn't clear 15 to me that they were asking for it, because they had an 16 absolute need or they are asking for it because they would 17 prefer to move into a higher priority?
18 MR. BARRY:
Both.
I9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Don't you remember the discussion 20 that Troutman made which said these days with the machines i
21 full for big run's sorts of jobs, those are getting to be the 22 same thing, aren't they?
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It was to get 24-hour
,IW 24 turnaround.
[.
2ce, erd Reponers, Inc.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It was'just to get on the machine. -
62 RMG 6 1
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I thought it was 24-hour 2
turnaround.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is what he was 4
contemplating.
If you want 24-hour turnaround, that is when 5
you have to do it.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think what he was also saying 7
was that on big machines, at the labs that we are using now, l
8 things are packing up.
So that if you don't get into that 9
priority class, you aren't even sure that you get it out the 10 next weekend or maybe the weekend after that or the weekend 11 after that.
12 MR. GOSSICK:
Infinite II, he called i.t.-
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
So you damn near come to the place where you are buying the 24-hour, which doesn't always 14 15 turn out to be 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />.
But buying that priority class, 16 or your big job may get slipped a couple of weeks down the 17 line.
18 MR. DONOGHUE:
It's those big numbers crunches 19 that go on 12-hour running of codes.
And they anticipate 20 more code work because of some of the stuff that research 21 is working on, they will be applying in that '81 timeframe.
22 It is a combination of the priority iditiator 23 that is forcing us to go from $1000 an hour to $4000 in some 24 cases.
So it is a significant increase, but it is less, as Aa Ae-O Reponers, Inc.
25 Charlie pointed out, it is less than what w e would have to pay
63 RMG 7 1
if we had to go outside the laboratory areas.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How much less is it?
3 MR. DONOGHUE:
How much?
I don't think he really 4
knew exactly, but it is significantly less.
Probably on the 5
order of 01000 an hour less, because the laboratories are 6
not charging us the full overhead and depreciation of a 7
private company.
8 MR. BARRY:
They are going to.
In '82 they are j
l 9
going to start charging depreciation in DOE.
In fact, in all 10 government agencies.
II CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
They are going to charge us, I2 or what?
13 MR. BARRY:
They are going to charge the user, 14 including themselves.
The depreciation schedule on a computer, 15 just.like commercial people have to do.
And they have 16 already served notice on us.
~
17 Of course it really doesn't bear on us too much f
18 other than --
I9 MR. DONOGHUE:
It is really charging money, that 20 is what it is?
2I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
For the moment, that exceeds 22 my ability.
I propose to you that we add $2.5 million in '81 23 to that ADP number of $8 million to avoid -- help avoid a i
24 pinch.
Any comment?
Or what are the comments, I know there Acv. oderal Reporters, Inc.
25 will be comments.
64 RMG 8 1
John?
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, I guess I found their 3
argument for it -- as I said, I wasn' t really clear whether it 4
was a hard argument saying that they knew they were going to 5
get on at all, or whether it was that they really 6
would like 24-hour turnaround time.
7 So I am willing to go along with adding in an extra 8
couple million of dollars, but I think the justification is 9
sufficiently soft that I wouldn't be surprised if we lost it.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Dick.
II COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
My impression was the same I2 as John, that the purpose was to try to get faster turnaround.
13 But I didn't realize that they really were experiencing
' Id difficulty getting on a machine at all.
15 At any rate, I too will agree to putting the $2.5 16 million in, but that is contingent upon getting that -- my I'7 also getting that cost study that I asked for, because I 18 don't think, if it is true, that these machines are getting I9 so pa'ked up that we can't get the kind of service we need c
20 without paying at the rate of $4000 an hour.
21 I don't think that it,necessarily follows that it 22 is in everybody's best interest to continue doing this at the 23 same old stand, even if it is a government machine.
Because 24 if that government machine is already full, and we can only
.As Jerc! Reporters, Inc.
25 get o'ur work at an exceedingly high cost, we might just be I
65 RMG 9 1
able to find a better deal..And the government thus saves
(
\\
2 money, really.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I don't know if we can find 4
cheaper ways to get it.
I think everybody would be happy to 5
do that.
6 I recognize the argument that if you have got a 7
government machine involved and there is really time on it, 8
then the cost benefits are really illusory.
But if, in fact, 9
that machine is otherwise loaded, then the question is whether 10 you can do better elsewhere.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do you want an enthusiastic 12 yes?
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I have already got two.
. 14 I have already reserved the right to say I told you so.
15 (Laughter.)
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If you.:want to fall in that 17 category, why --
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I will go along.
19 The think I would like to know, who controls the 1
20 use of that money?
In other words, how do w e know -- in other 21 words, having allocated it, suppose it is approved in the 22 budget process.
Is that free money for NRR, or is' Charlie-s 23 there seeing to it that -- we are getting the best buy for 24 the money?
rAc Axel Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. DONOGHUE:
He administers that portion of the
66 RMG 10 1
budget and spends that money at NRR's request.
So that he
(_
can -- he has control of the pursestrings in the sense that 2
3 he can stop it if he feels that they are just --
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Who decides whether we are 5
buying $1000 an hour time or $4000 an hour time?
6 MR. DONOGHUE:
Charlie is the one immediately 7
responsible.
He has to rely on the requirements to some 8
extent laid on1him.
9 NRR will come to him and say, "We have got to have 10 this job in the next two hours."
The only way he can get 11 that job running in two hours, let's say in Idaho or Brookhaveni 12 is to put it in a Priority I or whatever the highest priority 13 initiator, which will cost him.
'I4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I know, there is a tendency 15 for the technical people to do that.
I6 MR. DONOGHUE:
That's right.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I've been in that position 18 myself.
You know, like when you get your shirts in the laundry, 19 if it is the same price, you say, you would like it tomorrow.
20 MR. DONOGHUE:
He is put in the position, then, of 2;
trying to evaluate.
He can say, "No, I don't think this needs 22 a 2-hour turnaround." But he is then trying to make a judgment 23 of a question of when does the work need to be done.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Which he is not in a position
!c0 trd) Reporters, Inc.
25 to do' How do we set up the mechaism?
67 o
RMG 11 1
MR. DONOGHUE:
One of the things that he is requirinc
(
l s-2 that any request for a priority above the normal turnaround 3
time must be signed by the branch chief.
In other words, 4
the individual engineer cannot come in and say, "Run it."
5 So, if it looks like it is still being abused, we 6
are going to have to go above that to maybe an assistant 7
directora But somebodyhas got to tell him that they need it, 8
and we felt this ought to be somebody above the level of the 9
guy who wants to do l't.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is that what you meant when.
Il you said he isn't --
12 MR. BARRY:
It has not been done in the past.
And 13 frankly, one of my guys stepped in and made sure it is going 14 to be done.
15 MR. DONOGHUE: 'That's not exactly right.
10 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
17 MR. DONOGHUE:
No.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me suggest, in the interest 19 of using my last 10 minutes on the budget this afternoon, 20 effectively, that I announce that we will put the $2.5 in the 21 ADP thing, and my colleagues are going to put out to me that 22 it was a bum idea.
~
23 MR. BARRY: It is being done.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Not only that, I would like Ace seed Reporters. inc.
25 to know how it is going to get done, and who is going to be 1
68 RMG 12 1
responsible.
('-
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
When you are answering that 3
question, would you please --
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I assume all the Commisai 5
sioners will want to know that.
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Indeed.
And in the process 7
of answering it, would you ask the question what benefit would 8
accrue from the assignment of the responsibility of that money 9
to NRR?
If the guy is spending his own money, he wants to 10 spend it at $4000 an hour, instead of $1000 an hour, fine.
Il But he just gave up three hours of work somewhere down the 12 line.
And if he has to be -- if he realizes he is making 13 those decisions with his money, he just might make them a little 14 bit more judiciously.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me just say, Len, if 16 you are talking about doing it, you are in no better position 17 to do it than Charlie Troutman.
18 MR. BARRY:
No.
Only that now we have a joint 19 effort, and recognize that there was not even a branch chief 20 doing it.
That requirement has now been installed, and the 21 branch chief doe's have to sign out and approve it.
And we 22 are also going to let him know that here is the limit, you 23 have got to look at the year.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Who is we?
l
! Am. ederr.: Reponen, Inc.
25 MR. BARRY:
The people who are using it.
In other
69 RMG 13 1
words, we are going to let them know what their total program 2
is, because unfortunately in admin support, when the money is 3
gone, it is gone.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Lee, maybe you could send 5
a 1-page memo explaining who is going to be responsible for Gnd #18 6
this and how it is going to get done.
7 8
9 10 11 12 13
~14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 l
22 23 24 l
see e s nepon n,inc.
25
~
CR6332 M.Meltzer 70 t.19 1
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Good.
2 The other items, agenqy training and travel, crank 3
up as needed, do what is necessary.
4 Let me use the last seven minutes -- actually, it is 5
-- which provides us a minute to tell a joke, to deal with the 6
Commission offices.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
Is that the same thing?
8 (Laughter. )
9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
10 Amongst the Commissioner officers -- and I think here 11 that overall sheet of Len's may be of some benefit -- we had 12 two requests for an ' 80 supplement, three in OPA and five in 13 OGC.
14 I must say my inclination was to say, "Okay, comments?
15 Then we'll go on to
'81."
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I had "okay" in the three, and 17 I had four instead of five.
18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Four instead of five would suit me.
19 MR. BARRY:
Four for OGC?
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Now, let's see what other votes 21 we get.
22
- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would go for five.
23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
OGC had proposed to have three 24 professionals and two clerical in that five, which seemed ec....dwa.;.poners. inc.
25 reasonable to me.
jl 2 71 1
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
You take the five then?
I
(
2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Yes.
3 CHAII1 MAN HENDRIE:
Vic, you take the five?
s 4
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Five.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I say it's three and five.
We 6
agreed with you on the three and just upped your ante a little 7
bit on the five.
8 Okay.
Three and five,it is -- '80 supplement.
9 I'll tell you, one of the things that we're going to 10 have to do for Fouchard's crowd before there is nervous break-11 down, you have got to find him a plot so he can get somebody 12 up there to help Carl.
The Region 1 Public Information Office 13 has been operating a hysterical pitch since the 28th of March,
~14 and they have got to have help up there.
Just leave him a 15 slack, and let him go do it right now.
16 MR. GOSSICK:
Okay.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And if it turns out we don't get 18 the ' 80 supplement, while we'll eat it someplace else.
19 MR. GOSSICK:
Okay.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Maybe one of the resident 21 inspectors will turn out to be a newspaperman.
22 MR. BARRY:
So we put three or four -- is it in total?
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Three and five, three in OPA --
24 five in OGC.
%,,,JwW Reorwes, Inc.
25 MR. BARRY:
Okay.
---. ---- -.J
31 3 72 1
1 Now, having accomplished that -- and no money --
2 having accomplished that great step, we come to the '81 request s-3 And we have now got all kinds of urgings here.
The Commission
~.,
4 offices, I am happy to see, don' t want anything.
The ACRS 5
wanted -- this says five, they wanted six it turned out.
6 However, three of those are the " temps" which you have already 7
accommodated.
8 So it's really -- they have really asked for plus 3.
9 The number of new people that they would like to have is plus 10 3.
11 And, you know, I have kind of thought the committee 12 Staff was pretty fulsome -- especially with the fellowship 13 program --
'14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
I wouldn't.
15 Boards, panels didn' t want anything?
16 The SECY forbore.
The inspector and auditor wants 17 more, asked for the six.
We owe him.something like that.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would go for it.
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
On the basis of the original --
20 I was going to go for four of them.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
I would go for six.
22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I would go for the six.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would go tur four -- I 24 guess no more than four, even three to bring them down a little Ah.*ederal Reponers, Inc.
25 bit.
I
3y 4. -
O 73 1
(Laughte r. )
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That was the number of votes, not 3
the number of people.
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Would you settle for five?
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Five?
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
How about seven?
7 (Laughter. )
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
How about five?
9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Five is fine.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Five, okay.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYt What do these four -- are 12 these auditors?
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
These are on the audit side, and
' 14 it brings the office then essentially up to sort of the origi-15 nal level, which was contemplated back when it was formed, and 16 that we have never succeeded in getting it up to.
17 Okay, five on the OIA side.
Then there was plus one 18 more for OPA over the three I think Joe contemplated.
I'm 19 not sure whether that was a field person.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That's another field person.
21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Another field person.
22 Considering the way they - -
s 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's all right with me.
24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
So five OIA, one OPA, and i AL.e neporters, Inc.
25 the General Coansel wanted five more in ' 81.
But I must say
..-,.,y
.,m
jl 5 74 1
it seems to me mushy as all get out.
If we can get them the 2
five on the ' 80 supplement, why that would be the biggest thing 3
that's happened to OGC in some years.
And I would think that gs 4
would be good enough.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I had planned on giving him a 6
little, but I wasn' t planning on giving him as much in ' 80 --
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would give him at least 8
part of it.
I think they 'll-be busy.
9 CHAIRMAN: KENNEDY:
If you'd be careful what you say 10 in speeches, Vic, maybe we wouldn't get sued so often.
11 (Laughter. )
12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
We'll keep you out of 13 Pennsylvania for awhile.
'14 CHAIRMAN KENNEDY:
Okay.
He asked for five.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I'd give him the five.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
You'd vote the five ; I'd vote zero, 17 Dick?
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I don't think I'd give him 19 any.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
I would have given him one.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
That was because you were i
22 giving him four.
23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Sorry about that.
That means the 24 Commission offices are plus six.
Ah.. WwC RMmmm, loc 25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I'd be willing to settle for
,j l 6, 75 I
for two.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see what happens if he 3
doesn't get the supplemental.
,s O'
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Wait.
We have a --
5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I'd be willing to go for 6
two in '81.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
In addition to the five in
,s ?
8 COMMISSIONTR AHEARNE:
Two in '81?
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'd go up to two.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I am unable to resist a proposi-12 tion of such appeal.
13 Now, this makes it plus -- in the Commission offices
' 14 we started at a basic 250.now.
15 MR. BARRY:
16 increases.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Go up eight in the '80 supplement 17 to 258, eight more on the '81 request.
That would bring us to 18 266.
The program support I would take at the 1680 that has beer.
i 19 calculated.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
I would add $500,000 for 21 intervenor.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
And you would add 500 for 23 intervenor funding.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
If you're going to do that, Ace 4sdord Repo tors, Inc.
25 you're going to have to increase the General Counsel.
9
i L,7 I
k 76 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You just did.
2 MR. BARRY:
That's what the two were for, wasn't it?
3 (Laughte r. )
4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Not my two.
5 (Laughte r. )
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I can' t go along with that, 7
because I've already said the General Counsel has been unable 4
8 to show me that it's legal.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I'm assuming we're asking the 10 ComptrollerGeneral for their opinion, and that's where I thought 11
.we came out today.
I'm assuming the answer.ls going to be 12 yes.
13 But even if the answer is no, we could then put in
'14 legislation.
If it's yes, it's 500 in.
If it's no, it's 500-15 plus -- a decision.
16 COMMISSIONER, KENNEDY:
Okay, that's your proposition.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay, that's 500. for intervenor 18 funding.
19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:' Zero.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Zero.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would put it in.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
And I have a letter from 23 Peter saying he's for it.
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Then that's in.
c$rchres Heporters. Inc.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Do you --
ji 8 77 1
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
He thought it was a good idea.
2 He thought it was illegal.
3 You know what he did?
He left out any punctuation 4
in the sentence.
Do you read it?
There is no punctuation in 5
it.
Two or maybe three sentences -- you can't tell which.
He 6
needs a new typewriter.
Can we do anything about that?
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Let me -- wait, we will not have 8
a Comptroller General opinion.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You see -- but I think we put 10 it in the budget.
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE :
Look, I've done the same thing 12 with other items where you wouldn't agree.
You got the three 13
-- stick it in.
I4 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Fine, by all means.
15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
If we get a clearcut negative,
16 it looks like legislation would, if you can muster votes for 17 it.
Okay.
18 Okay, 500 would bring it to 2,180,000, right?
19 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
Those are the Commission 21 offices.
22 How many people have we cranked up so far?
23 MR. BARRY:
263, recognizing tnat in I&E you' re going 24 to have to adjust maybe plus or minus --
0 Feerd Roornes, ltw.
25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
10, 20, or so?
ji 9 78 1
MR. BARRY:
But other than that --
2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It's 263.
3 MR. BARRY :
Before you get to research.
Sb CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Before I get to research, and not v
4 5
counting the " temps."
6 MR. B ARRY :
Not counting the " temps," you'd have to 7
add that 146.
8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I tell you -- when this budget 9
goes to OMB, I want to know when you leave the building, 10 because I'm going to open my office window, because in about 11 15 minutes 'I'm going to hear Kearney scream -- Joe Kearney 12 scream.
And I just want to hear it there, shrieking on the 13 wind through the afternoon traffic.
14 (Laughte r. )
15 MR. BARRY:
I don't thin'k he ' ll s ay a work.
I think 16 he ' ll j us t go white.
17 (Laughter. )
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Wait until you see dollars.
19 Wait until the dollars come.
20 MR. BARRY :
We'll do research in the morning, I 21 understand, Mr. Chairman?
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
And we 'll also have trouble 23 shaking down the rest of this stuff.
24 Let's see -- you have got to go at 11:30 to 2:00 ce a.rc Reponers. inc.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE :
I do.
I'm giving a seminar.
jl10
}
' - '.2 79 1
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Do you think you'11 be back I
2 at 2:00?
3 COMMISSIONER Al{EARNE:
Oh, yes.
t19 4
(Whereupon, at 3:35 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.)
5
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8 9
10 11 12 13 r
'14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 4
22 23 24 W+eeers neportm, Inc.
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