ML19338B814

Deposition of Jd Lafleur (NRC) on 790801 in Bethesda,Md. Pp 1-90

ML19338B814
Person / Time
Site:	Crane
Issue date:	08/01/1979
From:	Helfman S, Lafleur J NRC OFFICE OF INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMS (OIP), PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ACCIDENT AT THREE MILE
To:
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ML19338B813	List: ML19338B812 ML19338B814
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TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 7909060503
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a cn.s ~ 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 PRESIDENT'S CC!O12SSION ON THE ACCIDENT -a. . h.m.e r .v..e.r e ISss!D r 3 .s 4 5 6 DEPOSITION OF: JOSEPH D. LAFLEUR, JR. 8 9 10 11 Recm 3119 12 Maryland National _3ank 7735 Old Georgetown acad 13 Sethesda, Maryland 14 August 1, 1979 9:30 o'cicck a.m. 15 16 APPEAF.ANCES : i i i On Beha'" ^# "e Cornissien: 1 IS S *..AN v 'J T' T V M4', A.- ..av. i 19 Associate Chief Counsel l ". 0 0 .'1 S - - = = -, '.. W. i, e 20 ; Washing:cn, D.C. 200;< l 01! Cn Schalf On the NRC: I ? a.o. .V.c*L.:.A

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2 . sI D .S =' t 2 ~4!':"TESS : DIRECT CRCSS REDIRECT RECRCSS 3 Josech D. LaFleur, Jr. 5 4 5 EXHI3ITS 6 NUMBER: FOR IDENTIFICATICN LaFleur No. 1 5 3 LaFleur :fo. 2 24 j LaFleur No. 3 53 9 LaFleur No. 4 69 10 LaFleur No. 5 73 11 LaFleur !!o. 6 74 12 LaFleur No. 7 76 l 13 LaFleur No. 8 79 14 LaFleur No 9&l0 37 15 La.?leur No. 11 34 16 LaFleur No. 12 36 t- .si LaFleur No. 13 37 i LaFleur No. 14 39 19 i 20 i 22 i 23 ' f 24, i 4 05 i Acme Reporting Company i

3 -. _ c -. c,J -. e. e 4 e 3 t MR. HELFMAN: Mr. LaFleur, would.vou clease raise 4- ..a..d,. u ..n, t --3.. Whereucon, 4 f hSEPHD. LAFLEUR, JR. 5 having been duly sworn, was called as a witness herein,and testified as follows: MR. HELFMAN: Would you please state for the record your til name? THE WIT'IFSS : JosephCeltaLaFleur[f. MR. HELFMAN: Have vou ever had vour detosition ~ ~ ~ 11 t . a.t e.. u.e.:. o.,,.,. .a 1o THE WITNESS: Cn this subiect? 13 MR. HELFMAN: On this subject. ..o. .u..=. y 2. v=.c.c.. m u 4 15 6 MR. HE*FMAN: Have you ever had your deposition take.-i 16 before on any subject? "'HE WITNESS: I can't recall any s ecific one. .a. i I

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4 1 in the course of events you will be provided with a copy of 2 the transcript and given an opportunity to read it and make 3 changes that you deem necessary. 4 You should be aware that we would have the 5 opportunity to comment on anv changes that you make and should 6 the changes be substantial, it could adversely affect your 7 credibility. As a result, it is important that you try to 3 he as accurate as you can today and that you ask for a 9 clarification of any questions that I ask that you don't 10 understand. 11 For the benefit of the court reporter, it is 12 necessary that your responses be audible since it is 13 difficult for her to record gestures. 14 It is also necessary that you allow me to 15 complete my question even if you anticipate where it is is ' going and I will try to allow you to complete your answer 17 before I ask the next question since it is difficult for the i I IS i court recerter to take down two c. ecole talkinc. a: the sametime,. 19 It is our practice a: the end of the deposition Oc i 'O ! recess it rather than terminate it in the event we have 1 i 21, further questions to ask you.

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5 D '.'3_*C ".. :G.v...w.'."* C $i A t 3 3y.h. .L..,,e. s.1 : u. 3 0 You were asked to bring a resume with you. Have vou done so? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. HELFMAN: I have here the resume of Joseph D. 6

LaFleur, Jr., and I would like this marked as the first exhibit to the LaFleur deposition.

g (LaFleur Exhibit !!o, I was 9 marked for identification.) to 3Y MR. HELF:1AN: ,1 Q Cees this resume accurately reflect vcur educa icnal to. and e=clo.vment backc.round? A Yes. 4 6 O Could vou please describe for the record your to. present title at the iRC and generally what.vour duties are? , b, t A I am the Cepu y Director of the Office of l International Programs. I am also the Assistant Direc:cr ,4 I i for International Cooperation. i to i du,. 4 e s ,,.,.ce _,.. e s e ..c .e c s.4 _: o,.

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~ a. 6 as Acting Director in the absence of the Director for the 1 2 whole office. 3 Q What are your duties as De,cuty Director of the office 4 of International Programs? 5 A Mv. orimary duty is.the' function of coo =erating with other countries a:d international groups to improve the national 6 and multilateral programs in nuclear safety. The majority of my time is spen doing that, maybe a 3 9 80 percent. Wenty cercent is spent acting as director over that function, that function of cooperation, plus the functior, to 11 and incert licenses and of Commission staff work of excor the policy work that gces along with that. ig 13 Q What part dces the NRC clav. in the import /ex ort license functien? ,4 A The NRC has to issue export licenses. Io-O For what? 16 basically, mainiv fou reductica and utilization,' A For c t

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= facilities as defined in the Atcmic Energy Act, whichS.cstiv N .a ; m u f I WY l 1 include s.' =ainly includes power reacecrs er research reactors /;i - ,9 M i l .,0 l, and it also has to issue execrt licenses fcr fuel and by-product material, meaning c:her radioactive prcdue:3, fuel 4 fer these reacter# and byproduct material. i The SRC also has :: ccer.en: and cncur in other ,.o i 3: actions re.a:ec :: ::a: sucn as ::ans:ers, re:rans:ers c: :ue.,. or byproducts overseas after they are ence authorized for i l l Acme Reporting Comocny l'

a y I export. 2 Q Would that be retrac.5fers to this country or 3 transfers among-- 4 A Anywhere. 5 Q I see. 6 A 3etween the other countries, or back to the United I States; when they come back to the United States we also have 3 to issue an import license which is one or our main 9 functions. 10 0 In the export licensing function, who applies for 11 the license? Is that the vender or is it the country that 12 would be the recipient of the reactor or the fuel or the 13 h.vo. roduct? 14 A An experter is usually a commercial organization, 15 either the manufacturer or somebody designated under contract 16 for the export function. 17 In the case of the reactors, it very often is the B i, vender, the manufacturer of that ec.uitment which is beinc. I 19 ' exper ed. l' .h 20l In the case of fuel and =aterial, sc=etimes i: is 21 ' a middleman. 22 G In the execrt licensing? 23 A Often it is a middleman. i

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3 1 A I think that is a fair statement. 2 Q For the reactor, it is usually the vender? 3 A Yes. 4 Q In the export licensing process, what type of an 5 application does the vender crovide and basically I am asking 6 does the vender provide an equivalent to the SAR which must be provided for the construction of a dcmestic plant? 3 A No. His application is more in the nature of filling 9 out a form and then substantiating it with statements and to answers to questions dealing with the special requirements 11 of national security and non-proliferation, assurances that 12 the fuel or material or material being exported will indeed 13 he placed under appropriate safeguard agreements, international 14 safeguard agreements, and assurance that the material will 15 indeed be used for peaceful purposes and details about 16, transport and so forth. i l 1; i Much of our advice on export licenses ccmes frca l 13j the Ixecutive Branch. As seen as we c.e: an ac.c.lication, we i i tgi send it to the State Deparument who ccordinate the views of i i 20l

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9 1 is that it is not, that the important findinc to make is that ~ the export will not be inimical to the national security. 2 3 0 Cces the NRC do the primary evaluation of domestic 4 health and safety concerns or does the State Cepartment 5 concern itself with that? 6 A No. The State Cepartment does not concern itself with dcmestic health and safety. 3 0 So that would be primarily your function? A Thev. might. They might. If they turned up anythine, 9 ,0 there would be no reason why they couldn't list it to us. I 11 don't recall that they ever have. 12 On the other hand, there have been generic studies 13 done on the environmental impact of the licensinc croc. ram-- I mean, I'm sorrv, of the nuclear enere.v. ex ort c. roc. ram, and , a. that ceneric analvsis is a part of this picture. It is 10 cited each time er generally as a description of the domestic i t-impact on the environment of this program as a whole, the f 3l export program as a whcle. Q When you refer to generic, you are not referring , o..l t t I to 3&N clants, but plants in general? .,0 4 -4_w_ 3, n .w 3.. _, u t.,. . ;ou se .w...e _a...o,-.,__,_a. e _4 a..._ _-

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10 D t made of the environmental effect of each export of reacecrs, 2 but not of fuel. This first generic statement that I 3 mentioned considered the environmental effect of export in 4 this country,on the high seas and in the global commons. 5 The Executive Order issued by the President in 6 January will require that a certain consideration be given D. to the environmental impact of each export of reacto5 in the 3 country in which it will operate, and in the neighboring g countries as well, to Q Would it be possible to obtain frc= you a sample ti questionnaire such as an applicant would fill out for an g2 expert license? 13 .4 Yes. 14 Q Could we get that during the deposition? If we 15 could, I would like to have it'=arked as a exhibit. A Yes. 16 ; I t-l Q And also so that we can do it at the sametime if i e- , e,,. v.ou have a copy of the Executive Order handy? 'IELF.'d.AN : Off the record. i MR. 4.9 q

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(A discussion was held off the record.( U.". '.?.'d.A.'O. y 3'.' .'do.. ..u t i O Are you aware =eneral'.f speaking of the course ..3 cf events a: nt: 2 in March of this year? .,.a 3 A Yes, pre::y wel'. u.. Q Are rou aware that among :he fac:::s which caused l Acme Reporting Company

11 1 or exacerbated the problem included a PORV which stuck o. oc.en, a pressuri:er level indicatien which indicated the 3 presence of ample coolant in the core despite continuing loss of coolant from the core and' voids in the core, the 4 /\\ 5 ocerator relying on pressuriser level terminated HPI? 6 A Yes. 0 Were you aware at the time of the Three Mile Island 3 incident in March of this year of any transients in this 9 country of abroad which followed a similar course of events? to A It is my impression that one or more of the elements 11 that you describad, that you selected as important here have occurred in many places in this country and presumably 13 overseas. 0 Were you aware-- 14 A I was not aware, well, I was aware, I am aware of 15 some incidents that have occurred overseas,not with both 16 factors that vou mentioned I think. 1-13, MR. CHOPKO: I just want to fix the time of your I f 19, question. { MR. HELFMAN: I was going to fix that myself. l 39 I I i 3v_ .""s. u.r.. T.'4AN.- 2 I l .,.2 O Were you aware of such transients 1: the time of the Three Mile Island inciden: in March of this year? 3 l A In the broadest sense, tha: is the incifen s t 3 cverseas, centaining ene or more direc:1/ or closely scmewhat, n Acme Reporting Company

e m -w a 1'$ 0 t related elements, yes, I was aware. 2 Q Ecw many such incidents were you aware of, more 3 than two? A This is a very common type of transient. The closer 4 5 you get to exactly what happened at Three Mile Island, the 6 more, of course, you narrow down the answer, but in the con-text of there having been overseas incidents with some of 3 the elements in it, yes, more than two. 3 Q How would you beccme advised of such transients? 1o Is it similar to the domestic procedure wherebv. the NRC 11 is notified via LER's and investigatien reports? A The question was hcw do I normally, hcw am I 13 13 normally advised? Q Of overseas transients. 14, l A Yes. The NRC has agreements with foreign countries 15 that have active nuclear enerav crocrams, about 18 of them. ,6 gl It is either 17 or 18, that do exchange information that is i t3l useful or that is interesting to the c her country, each o l i so! crovide informatien Oc the other countrv about nuclear energy' I l 3 safety. ,0 l I 21 : O Is this a mutual exchange of information? i i l ~.., ; A Yes. 3 Q So foreien ecuntries with nuclear pr: grams wculd 3 be advised cf dcmestic transients which might bear en their i I nuclear industry, and : hey wculd advise us cf ::ansients 1 i .,a. 1 1 Acme R e,c o r tin g Com=cny

13 1 that might be pertinent to the demestic industry? 3 A That is the intent of the agreement. 3 0 Coer the information come frem the country, or 4 does it come from the vend. -? 5 A The obligation is on the part of the country, an 6 agency of the country, of the government of the country, I like NRC. It is an agency-to-agency agreement. 3 0 The agreements are between the NRC and the pertinent 9 agency? 10 A That's right, but very often we get the information 11 through commercial channels, usually clearly blessed by the 12 country, by the agency. 13 Q s the existence of such an agreement c pre-14 condition to the granting of an export license to a vender 15 to supply reactors to a country? 16 A 30, 17 0 Has this country issued, has the NRC issued an i 13l expert license for the expert cf a reacter to a ecuntry that ! f 19 dces not have an agreement to engage in =utual sharing of p 20 ' pertinent information w ~~ - e NRC? 2 d l 21l A Yes. Has the NRC done this? f i 22 j Q Yes. 23 A War.: a minute new. That requires my fi:uring back 24 ' 1975 when the NRC was created. 05 Yes, we ha*/e dene se, yes. Acme Recorting Comceny

14 a t 0 Is it current practice to issue :uch export 2 licenses in the absence of an agreement, or was that an 3 older and superseded poliev? .the"' A The law requires that shay be an agreement for 4 5 ccoperation with a country which dces provide generally 6 for cooperating and would certainly sanction the exchange of information between the two governments, usually t%c LaAlh 3 specifically oesbian.5, I think usually specifically f,3 A / 9 out safety information, to I am not too sure of that, but in any case, the intent to cooperate on a scale that would certainiv be 11 12 consistent with having detailed cooperation in safety is in 13 the agreements for ccoperation. That is a government-to-14 government agreement. That authorizes, with all the other precedures 5 s that I mentioned, authorizes the export; both car:ies then 16 g recogni:e later the benefit of sharing safety information 13 i and of other cccperation that might be done in safety and voluntarily as a separate action come up with this, with an i 9 t l agreement to cooperate in regulatory matters. y ~ i The answer is that I guess yes, it has always been .. t

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the pclicy no: o require a safe:y coepera icn agreemen as i a conditien of license. 23 4 C Weuld it be accurate : say tha: :he agency-:0-25 acency agreement i=plements the gcvern=en:-:c-geve rnmen: Acme R e c o rtin o. C o m =. c n y I

3-o t t agreement cencerning cooperation? 2 A Yes. It is part of the implementation. 3 Q Oces the detestic vender, supplier of a reactor to 4 a foreign country, have an obligation to report to the NRC 5 concerning transients or dces the obligation fall solely on e the regulatory agency of the foreign government? A Part 21, which is based on I think Section 206 of 3 the Energy Reorganization Act of ' 74, requires that certain 3 parties, including designers and censtruction companies and to operators and licensees of U. S. reactors, report to NRC 11 any safety defect, safety situation,which could reasonably ~- 12 he considered to be a hazard to cause a safety problen, and 13 if one of those people knows of a defect such a defect in .a U. S. reactor, and he knows about this as a result of 14 . saws 5l overseas,'whetherhegetsit[55}asanexorteroravender 4 -m .gl overseas or something else, he has to report under Part 21 1-the deficiencv. er the problem as it exists in the U. S. ,3 reactor. I 0 Would that include generic problems. 9 r y) l A Yes. What I am trying to say is that he is not l n required to come home and tell us wha: is wrong with scmebcdy i else's reactor everseas. r = He is required to ccme here and tell us wha: :s wrong with our reactor here. 23 0 Eased as i: may be en inf:rma:icn gained fr:m i r Acme Reporting Company i ) I 1:2 929-44e5

16 I ex=.erience with overseas reactors of the same tve.e? O A That's right. 3 Q So you could conceivably receive details about an 4 overseas transient frem the agency in the foreign country 5 which regulates their nuclear effort and from the domestic 6 vender who supplied the reactor to the foreign government? A Yes. 8 Q Custemarily do you receive such information f cm 9 both sources? j 10 A Often when we receive information of this type, it 11 comes frca several people involved, including our vender, la yes. 13 Q Are there time requirements imposed en either the of 14 ~~ vender JWL the agency concerning hev seen after the occurrence 15 of a transient the transient be reported to the NRC? 16 A I didn't get all the question, l' Q Within what pericd of time after the occurrence 13, cf an everseas transient which hears on the dc=estic j I' s industry must the vender report to the :iRC concerning the i 19 ' i ao t:2nsient? I I i e,-; A That is a detail of the regulatica. I as sure i, .m -- l that it is essentially as scen as he can convince himself i tha: there is sc=e: hine that dces have an effec cn the t ^4 1 L*. 3. reacter in a re23Cnable 5anner,. hut.' la nc eXaC:ly 25 sure what the regulation says. Par: 21 wculd say it. 'I Acme Reporting Compcny I I

17 Q From your recollection of the requirement, such 1 2 as it may be, would a six month period of time be the 3 cutside pericd of time? A From the time that the party in this country knows 4 about it, I would say in the case of most safety problems, 5 6 certainly most serious ones, he should be able to recognize and recort within six months. 3 Q It is my understanding that the vender remains 9 intimatelv involved in the cperation of a reactor which it to has supplied. It may, for example, provide training programs for the utility, oc. erator, operators. It mau. provide it technical advice to the utility. It may provide the technical 12 assistance in drafting rescenses to inquiries put to the ,3 utility bv the NRC. 14 From your ex=erience, dces the succlier of a reactor 15 retain sc=e involvement in the oceration of a Eurceean , o. reactor which it has sucolied? e i 13,l A Yes. O Is it along te same lines as the vender wculd ,9 - 1 i 4 ,,0 l remain invcived in the ccera:ica of a domestic reactor or 3: is it different? I f I A I think it is probab'y roughly along the same lines, 3 a the same nagnitude of effort. The scope migh be a little differen because in gener?.1 the overseas party has to cpera:e er has to have a li le bit more self-sufficiency. Acme Reporting Com=cny

13 t You can't call as fast on such a vender who happens to be o many miles away as a U. S. company can, and in each countrv. 3 there is a different kind of effort to create and support 4 its cwn national industry, its own domestic industry. 5 Q Would a domestic vender be involved, for example, 6 in training the operators of a European plant? A Could. It is my impression it is a commen, 3 continuing function. 9 0 Would the U. S. vender be involved in supplying to technical advice to the operator of a-- i A could be. 11 12 O Is that a commen cccurrence, as far as you know? A I think it is. I couldn't tell vou 4 hat percentage 3 i 14 of the plants still retain the vender for technical advice. 15 Q In your effort te keep apprised of Zurcpean transients , o. that may hear on the demestic industrv, do you also trv. to l

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keep abreast of domestic transients which have highlighted .s problems in the dcmestic industrv.? i t 9l A Cnly to the extent that we try Oc arrange h consultations. Part of our function of exchanging i

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information is trying to call regular mee ings or ad hoc -i meetings en importan: topics or current : pics, sc to the extent that we had te know wha: the impcrtant curren: :cpics .a 4 24l were and what technical pecple in the NF.C were interested the mcmen:, we would kee C r en wha 13 coinc :n .i at ,ai urren .,o 1 Acme Reporting Compcny

1 19 I here. l 2 Q Are these in-house meetings that you are referring 3 to? 4 A No. The meetings with other countries that we have 5 agreements with. 6 Q I see. 7 A Mostly with the leading countries that we have 8 agreements with, the countries that have the most active 9 programs, mainly Germany and Japan. 10 0 How many countries has this country supplied with 11 nuclear reactors? 12, A That question cenes differen every time it is 13 stated--10 to 20 I guess. 14 Q Could that question be rephrased and produce a i 15! different answer? I i 16 l' A I cuess not. I am surprised that I don't right J l i l l~! off recall hcw many countries there are. These 13 that we li; have agreements with, I think = cst cf them have been supplied' 19i with U. S. reacecrs and then nere are a :ew others that, as i ,Y rA ',s I i to ; I said earlier, ha're been su=. c. lied U. S. reac: Ors which we g i 21 still don't have agreements, so I guess tha is hcw I ccee 22 : to the conclusion it is 10 to 20. n 23 ^ And these are che ac. enc.r-:c-ac.encv. ac.reements tha: ~ i 24 you referred to a =cten: age? l 25 ' A Yes. In all cases, there is an existing agreemen: I l l Acme Reporting Company l m ...n.

20 1 for cecperation, as I said. I might have said also that 4 in the case of some of the international organizations, 3 notably the only one I know of is EURATOM in the European 4 co r. cries, we new have agreement for cccperation with the 5 organization rather than with the individual country. 6 Q EURATOM? ~ A It is an acrcnym describing that ccmmunity of the 8 communities of Europe which is responsible for contracting 9 for and monitoring and safeguarding the fuel within the .10 European communities. 11 Q How old is the agreement with EURATOM? 12 A In the mid '60's, the various country programs, 13 country agreements in Europe I believe were all meldad into 14 the community agreement and that set up EURATOM. 15 Q Is this an agreement between the NRC and EURATCM, 16 cr is this-- l 1'l A It is an agreement between the U. S. Government .S : and EURATCM and the Zurcpean ce== unities. i I 19l C Cces that sur.ersede the crevicusiv existinc, i 20l agreements of cecperation between governnen; and c*.*ernmen:? I i .,7 A 3etween the United States and several cf the 4., c her governments: I am not sure whether the six members Of 23,

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21 1 Q Do you know the six nembers of EURATCM? 4 A I should--West Germany, France, Benelux, and Italy, 3 and now there are another three, so it'is the nine--Ireland, t UK, and Cenmark I believe. I'm pretty sure that's right. 5 Q So that would be nine? 6 A Right now, but originally it was six. , Q Which countries dc you include in the Benelux 3 group? 9 A 3elgium, Ne the rlands, Luxembourg. 10 Q In your effort to apprise foreign nuclear regulatory 'l agencies or foreign govaraments of transients which have la occurred in this ccuntry which may be pertinent to their 13 nuclear industry, do you recall if the NRC advised foreign 14 governments of the Davis-3 esse transient which occurred in 15 Septenber of 1977? 16 A No, I don't recall. Much of che advice that we give is by automatic distribution of published documents, ,I 13 i so unless.sc=ething is really likely to cause a stir, an I 4 i '9l .i.. ~. = - a s -, - esa- -.. e..a a..-. and,c'4 4 a' i. i n =-- a--= -- i.n ...e k i ^0l' countries that have these kinds of reac:crs, we don't usually ~ i 4 .i t crecare seec al correspondence on an,nc; cent. 1' an 4 -- l Cavis-3 esse also dea.'.: cnly with, was only of '3, -.....e .e, _._ s w w..c = -... w^ 3 & N m-e a..- .a, ^#

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22 1 0 There are no S&W plants in Europe? 2 A There is one. that is being built.in Germany, but 3 there is none in operation. It has scme differences, eco. 4 I am not familiar with the details, but there are scme 5 differences that have been mentioned by the people that we 6 have talked to about it casually as being either like scme ~ of the plants, but not like TMI or like none of the U. S. 8 plants or something like that, that were talked of in the 9 context of being a little better from the point of view of to this kind of transient. 11 Q Has the German government been advised of transient 12 history with domestic B&W plants such as the Davis-3 esse 13 incident in September,'77 or the Davis-Besse transien; in 14 November of '77 cr the March, 1979 transient at TMI 2? 15 A I don't know. I am sure that they have, but I have 16 not specifically called it out to them that I recall. I can I l~l go back and try to look at the various distributions we t 13 l' l have made of cperating reports, and I am sure we will turn l i 19 up scme on this, but I am not sure, not absolutely sure. { 20h Q Is this something that cculd be done furing a break i 21 in the deposition, or would it take scme time to 20mpcse a 22 list? i l 23 A That was a long time ago. I will see if i: can be 24 done while we are talking. l '5, A2. e:>s go c:: : a recorn. i =. n Acme Reporting Company i 1

23 (A discussion was held off the record.) 1 3Y MR. HELFMAN: Q Y u have brought with you a dccument which is 3 entitled "LIR Monthly Report" dated Julv lith, 1979 and it 4 1 ks like a soft-bound booklet of some 91 pages. 5 Could vou explain for the record what this is and 6 who receives it. A We receive it monthly as a listing of all the 3 recorted licensee reports. I think they are all included 9 and it is distributed in this country within the NRC report 10 svstem to whoever is interested, and we distribute it to 11 the people, the contacts designated under our agreements for 1, regulat ry in rmation, cooperation overseas, including 13 Ge rmany. ,4 t Q Do you eliminate frem the LER monthlv recort 15 LER's cencerning clant designs which are inapplicable to 16 Iur0 pean plants? 1_, I A Nc. ' s. i t 19I O Thev get everythinc? I l A They get everything. ,y, l Q These are basically summaries of LIR's? i .i i A They are the impcrtant narrative description of each i I incident, of each report. g Q I see. Fcr example, en page 31 of the LIR men hly i reper: there is a referenre to Three Mile Island 1, and Acme Reporting Comceny

24 i 1 1 there are three series of numbers fellcwine the identification 2 of the particular facilities. 3 Is there a date somewhere in these numbers that 4 indicate the date of the LER or the date of the transient? 5 A The title of the column is event date, report 6 date, and report type. Q So for this particular transient, what would be a the date? 9 A The first item is the date, so it must be the to second, or February 28, '79. 11 O I see, so the second column of numbers indicate the 12 dates of the particular transients? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. EELFMAN: I would like to have this document 15 marked as an exhibit to the deposition. Mav we retain , 16 this for the purposes of the deposition? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 (LaFleur Exhibit No. 2 was i l ig marked for identification.) I

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C This LER monthiv. rec. c rt is dated Julv. lith, 1979. i' Ecw often do these accear? ms I o.n.' A Monthiv.. 1 i

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9.o i. have ac.reements of cooc. eration with this countrv. ? 2 A To foreign countries, including European and others. Q Do you distribute these LIR monthly reports to 4 countries that do not have an agencv.-to-agencv. agreement 5 regarding sharing of information? 6 A I will have to answer that exactly--I am not sure. We have about four different mailing lists and some go only 3 to those designated contacts under the agreements. Some go 9 to all of the ceople who have any form of cooperation, to including very informal with us. Scme go to people it designated to receive urgent messages in the countries, and 12 ' so as to the LZR, I am certain that the countries that have 13 the agreements with us, that have light water reactors, do 1,, receive them, but I am not sure exactly who else might receive that one. 13 Q Would it be pos'sible to obtain the lists cc which 16l' 1 1-l you just referred, the routing lists so that we could see l ta ! Who gets what? i A Yes. tgl I I i Q Could we do that new and then perhaps make that an _0 -i 4 i e xhibit to the deposition? ] 21 .,a. A Ckav. l a

3 1 MR. HILFMAN

Cff the record. i (A discussion was held off the record.) 24 1 25 MR. HELIMAM: Back en the record. Acme R e.p o r t i n c. CommenY

76 I BY MR. ~JZLFMAN: 2 Q Coes the NRC receive similar regular notificatica 3 -rem any :oreign agencies or governments concerning 4 transients at plants in their countries? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Is that the bulk of countries or is it to a few 7 you are providing such regular informaticn? 8 A The information we receive from the foreign 9 governments depends largely on how they nor= ally repcrt it 10 domestically,4each ccuntry. Most of them don't have nearly 11 the reporting detail or the requirements for open use of 1"- One in:ormation that we have. 13 We have not adopted a system in this country for 14 g e ~ a n. <, g,..a- -,o -~...g u..u.e -..n.- e.. s u.a a-,. ...-c -a 15 that have to be distributed to everybody; although is important incidents by various systems of recognitien here 17 are distributed dcmesticallv, we have not come to a standard i i is .a c---..g c: : - e. c...;...:c.-m. a - ' '... I

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I 19l In ene assence o: that, we have asked the othe-i y i i l cetn ries to send whatever they can, which is their usual i i 21 l

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a w 27 agency,dependingedOn: what is the information, what is in I o the incident report. 3 Cees that answer the question? 4 Q Yes, it does,and it answers that question and the 5 next two questions. 6 Where information is received from a foreign I government or a foreign agency and the NRC receives it, and 3 I assume some evaluation occurs, is that information then 9 transmitted to venders or utilities in this country that to operate similar plants? 11 A Our responsibility is to transmit it to the people to here in.nspection anc Enforcement and in licensing er in A ,3 research who have the responsibility in turn to digest it 14 and to evaluate it and to distribute it for them. 15 0 Is such information pretty much handled the same 16 as would a dcmestic LER cnce it is receivdd by the NRC and 17 put into the normal staff processes? ta ' a To :ne est o:- my.<nowlecge it is, yes. c I 19l 0 So far as you know, has the NRC scught additional i i 20l information er details from foreic.n ac.encies or c.ove--~a-s I at i recarding transients reported by them? I t i .m A

can think cf at least two transients that we

+>- nquirec urt.ner accur. t yi 0 Oces the NRC ever send investiga:crs c the site s. i 0 cf a foreign plan to do On-site investigations such as nigh: Acme Reporting Company

~ A8 4 be done in this country with a dcmestic transient? A Yes. Transients--the answer: is ves, and also other n. s afe tv. =.roblems such as long-term damace that might be studied V or leaking of pipes and that kind of thing, we discuss in - ad hoc or periodic meetings with the foreign parties. Q D es the Office of International Programs have its 6 cwn investigators for the investication of overseas transients? A No. 8 O Whose services do you employ? Would that be I&E investigators? A In the ad hoc sic

f it, we would make up a team 11 le of whcever NRC is interested to co talk about a problem.

n_ We have been in addition conducting with the two main g countries that operate most of the licht water reactors of 14 ' l 15l the U. S. type overseas, C-ermany and Jacan, trying to set uo.--not really trv.in9, we have been conductinq at least ,6 r annually a meeting with each of these two other countries 1,. either there or here to specifically discuss current ceneric I' i i 2

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29 l t nuclear incidents, and I have hoped that by these meetings 2 we, these meetings would tend to over.'~e the relue:ance to 3 write a report about something and also having a suitable 4 and appropriate time and place for both parties to sit down 5 and discuss that as a matter of the agenda I think is a 6 goed way of encouraging more flow of information of this type. Q With respect to on-site investigation of European 3 transients, has the NRC been able to send inspectors to the 3 site of a European facility to further investigate the 'O details of a reported transient? n. A With reseect to what? 12 A To a reported transient. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Is that generally an acceptable procedure to the 15 foreign government wid1 whom we deal, or are there some that 6 are receotive to that and some that are not? l i 1. A We have never been refused a reques: that -2 =ake p, for us to make a visit to a countrv to talk about a new t I 9 problem that they have, or a recent report tha: we got from i l i

9 them.

j 21 Q am referring to on-site investigatica -=--=- --=- i .sa_ conferences er discussions. 3 A The three or four times tha: can recall tha 24 ve have requested meetings of this kind, en sine or Off site,' '.S we have getren what we requested. Acme Recorting Company

30 t O You referred to a reluctance of some foreign 2 countries to report embarrassing transients. 3 Is this a common orcblem with foreign governments 4 who have been supplied with Amarican reactors? 5 A The United States has bv far the most ocen system of 6 reporting everything,as I said, so much so that we have so much, the eroblem is how to use it. 3 The other countries invariably report less for I g donestic and outside censumption than we do. AT.cng the oht r \\v 0 countries, the amount reported varies frem practicallv 1 11 nothing to al= cst as much as we report. 12 0 Is there such a wide variation among say European countries? Are there some Eurecean countries that succiv ,3 virtually nothinv and others that succiv much more? 4, A Yes.

Tow one of the mechanisms that we use to 15l i

overccme this-- tg (A discussicn was held off the record.) 1, i I. MR. HELFMAN: Would vou read back where we were? a i t i (The record was read by the reporter.) m,

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J9 1 condition that it be ke : confidential, not c,iven public 2 disclosure, we can accept it that way,and we agree to 3 keep it confidential. BY MR. HELFMAN: 4 5 Q How would the NRC go about advising a domestic 6 vender or domestic utility of a significant European transient if the information regarding that transient were provided-- 3 A In confidence? 9 Q In confidence. A There are tJo cr three ways. 10 11 (A discussion was held off the record.) 12 THE WITNESS: So the question was scmething to the 13 effect cf hcw do we tell our licensees when we know of such 14 a prob 3em.out it is rece.,vec. on a con icentia3 casis? to. BV..d.7.. H "u.7'1A'i-16, Q Yes. I gl A First, as with the gimmick used in Part 21, as I I 3 mentiened earlier, we don't have to tell them anything abcut i what happened in the foreign country. All we have to tell ,a ! i j them is what we knew is wrong with their reactor. .,,3 2t (A discussion was held off the recerf.) i .,e -e ... u..a,, a,- an u.a., .-,.;....ve a i_ c. 2; _1 a 1 .. -..e. w 4 - w w c. -==- ^ i -..e a-- c. ---.--. .C- ' wa. ".a".=. o a'i . S..e.. # - 3,_ a j _z ; w"a'. We %.".^w "^ 'e w-a..c. a c ~u r. - d a"; W +-.".c, V d."... '. = - ' - ~~ a y 4# ' .o - a'a- .k *..* *** # - ^ * # - - a # ""

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3' ~ situation in one of our reactors, we only have to tell our Operater to show us how he can avo.id such a problem er hcw 3 he can fix it or that he doesn't have the' problem. Tha 4 is the first way. 5 3Y MR. ELFMAN: 6 Q Are there others? A The W q ways are that we don't have to, although we have authority under the Executive order to classifv .e this information as national security information, we don't g to have to do that in every case. We cniv. do that in the very serious cases.there we really feel that there is a fairly hi,h potential for m.. 13 leaking the information otherwise because of the interest, the heat of the mcment, of where we think there is seme c:her 14 to. factor that would make it serious enough to appiv. that ,6 protection, that level of protection. We can do it in administrative ways. We can i 13 l protect it. We can mark it with a marking saying de nc: i ,9, nternaticnal l disclose without Oe: aission of the NRC or the i o o e_ m... e .'P..C, a..d ~.".a__ e a_-a_ o *_.'.e e.x a..o, _ _' a. s.. n._...___' _, = .,,9 l .:.xemo. tion 4 w..a' cn aco _:.es to ccamerc:.a., :.n:crma .cn, i i _z.. _

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1 4 being, commercial Exemption 1 is national security A 4 information. There are other exemotions such as eersonnel 3 matters and so forth, a=cng the other that might sometimes ac.o.ly, but those two are the ones that we usually discuss. 4 5 We can protect _ information if we don' t think it is s important enough to require the full national security crotection and still make it usable, and thereby make it more usable to our staff and to licensees and venders and other 3 9 people who have a need to know. 10 The other thing we can do is if it is serious and if we do classify it, we can recuire that the licensee 11 12 - and the venders have cleared people to receive the information, i 13 but usually that is the extreme because what we begin to 14 deal with soon af ter we obtain the information is semeching 13 wrong in our plant, not something wrong overseas, so we can

6 usually use the information without identifying the source i

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and without makinc. it evident that there is sece:hing wrcng i 3l in an overseas plant. i Q o casica;;v vou are acte to use One in:orma::en , o.,. .m. that vou gained frcm the overseas transient withou: 1' - e.. - _ ; _4..g ~.%..e _1 _=.n..=...d. ~.".e. cu..._4.o-4..,o ',e d '. d' 4 "" _a 3, A Without even saying it '3appened overseas.Decause -~ (,) r'~ & e, g. z..c, A a :.: o..,.... ..c.., ,g. . u.g -,- .y -a,-.. a- ..e-, av-a w-W a i -..g.ggg. _: .f g,. a a....b.g.e s. _4 _ %. 3 y yg.g A-3..4 ..a.... a g.7 ..b. o. *.e-A d \\ j; t i i 4 b a: .i.s.....3.4 c a.,.y..,... -. yd-a.b....-. e..-.. a.-..a g

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4 34 'it was shut down, then it is easy to zero in en which foreign t-2 plan: it is,. and there have been some instances of that 3 kind of thing. Q Would I be correct in assuming then that 4 5 confidentiality of such information applies primarily to 6 identifying the source rather than to the information itself? 3 A That is true, but it is a trap that we have to be 9 very careful of. to It is very difficult to say that something happened ti overseas and still protect it just by not saying in what t2 plant and what country. 0 So if you receive information concerning an overseas 13 transient and you wish to advise domestic venders or 14 15 utilities or to pose questions to them concerning the transien.t, 16 you could describe the sequence of events involved in the transient as the information was crovided to vou from the

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i tg! closing the name of the country, the name cf the plant, and l' i 20l the fact that it was a foreign transient? Is that generally l correc-? .,1 l A It is very difficult to apply that generally. 22 23 would say that you can protect the infcrmatica by digesting 8 l it and_ dealing with the problems in the U. S. plant and 4.4 i t i ne: describing the it._'. den: in the everseas plant any v.cre .,5 l l l l Acme Reporting Company

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f 35 1 than you have to to get to the information. o-Q So you would attempt to exiude-- A The other ways v.ou can do it are to require an 3 4 agreement of confidentiality fram the o.eople who receive 5 the information in the case of not classified, protected 6 information, or to require clearances and a clear understand-ing of what is classified in the case of classified information. 3 9 Q In either the former or the latter case, protected to but not classified information, and classified information, you would then provide the vender or the utility with the t1 "u'l s' -v'- 12 A YS8' 13 O Which is the more commeniv used approach to dicest 1 13 the information, to withhold the name of the cou.try, the ,6 name of the plant and the fact that it was an everseas s 1

1. j transient, cr the use of confidentiality agreements or i

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~ 3, ! infcrmation, I would say the digestien in the staff here of . u.e _2.,._= __ _...a. _a. c_. _ag-_'_, ,. c c 1_ =_ ^ a_.". ' -..a. o- ~..' c _'..' .~...a. _'... ii . c _:c,.,. c.,..._ c s _; __a_,.,2-_.._.....a,_- a_ _ac.,., o o _a..n.._a.....a. o ~ ,3 3, cperaters the licensees Or incerecrating in:0 regulations ,' _ =_ _-,._ _- a_...e .. o _ _' _.".a. 4.._3....__. w '. '. o "_. -.. e ~ do_ o _' -~.. ~ .;3 i l Acme Reporting Compcny

36 1 any reference at all to any foreign plant, but we are 2 dwelline. ueon a verv. small percentage of the total informations 3 that we get from overseas, or that we use in our regulatory 4 actions here. 5 Q Is it true that most of the information you receive 6 is provided without a request for confidentiality or pro-i tection of this sort? 3 A tes. 9 Q Is that because there are very few countries that 10 require this tv.c.e of.crotection? 11 A No. It is because only a few of the incidents are 12 so sensitive, information about very few of the incidents 13 is sensitive. 14 Q As a general matter, the request for confidential 15 treatment of infor tation would be nade on a case-by-case 16 or transient by transient basis? 6 17 A 'le s. I think that would be the case. I i 13l think it will be a little different when we get a more I i i 19j standardized reporting from overseas, but when we star: 'I 20 ll telling the pecple overseas we new have a syst. ?. for using i i i 21l foreign information alcng with cur own informatica and we 22 ' u c " ' ' ' '.k =.v o u ". = " _-.._' o- *.. = _' _' .*.a_ _'.._=~....a __.. _.. ...a_ 23, 4 3 _, _3. w _a.,. -. a a_ c_ c _ _i =_ s.'.. ~.a._#. _' _' e-w _'... .#. -...a _,. - =... a _=.-. i i n, _..c.. 2 _4._. 3_ :., e....a _ _',... =.. o "_c ". 3 - - "o- _.".._'__'....".a. _' _ _' _' _ w - .,5 _.. g ..-.. a __,..e.. _. _:..,, -._ = = e,_:..., .__g..____;._,- . n. i Acme R e p o rtin c. Company ,1,

t 3e I i us all of that information, I think we wculd ge: =cre 2i routinely marked confidential things. 3 I mentioned a while ago that there was what we 4 talk about as operational experience information. We also 5 have agreements in research, and in many of the countries 6 overseas, the research information may come out initially in draft form or it may come out always with some kind of a a protection, coev.ric.ht or markinc. on it sav.ing this is the 3 .c roc. e rty of semebedv, and it is not to be given to anvbcdv. 10 freely, not to be given away without any restrictions. It 11 is restricted in :act, so in t.nat case, it is more o:. a 12 routine collev. c:. ene owner, t.ne crie. :.nator, tn.a: :.s involvec 13 i enere .ce..treve. A l 14 0

• hat a"olies far less to normal operatinc e.

15 - 'nrormation and exper:..ence? m..w.a i._. 4,h. , o-a t 1-0 Are there any overseas countries -hat as a general l l 1 .a. a '. a _'~ '.~='3'**,..'._'"a -...#.^,_'-'*a',.'..#.^..**. .a v ""'_'*o v.'.# e C "."."- a _*"._#.._#..;~ C "ye.".S.. - . y 19 4.". g

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38 i source remains to a certain extent the property of the private 3 source, or even by a public corporation in the case of a 3 nationali::ed utility, so that unless the country had 4 established a policy and a system for publishing operating 5 information, it would just be unusual to release it without 6 any controls at all, and if it had, well then, it would have 7 been culled in some way to provide a certain selection of 's what is important and what can be released and so forth. 9 Q Is what you are saying that there do not exist any to foreign countries that have a general requirement that 11 information be provided to the NRC be held confidential la because there is already some pre-screening that goes on in 13 those countries? 14 A Usually in ecst countries there is some system 15 for reporting, and it may be very sparse and it may be verv i i 16 well laundered--please strike that-- it may be very well a 17 edited before it is released. i Q Are you sc.eculatine. or de vou knew of ccen: ries tha .O 19l do launder or edit transients that are repcreed to the NRC? l l t i 1 49 ! A nink much =cre so overseas than here; everything ; I 3, i s c : ' c :. a _, lv. releasec. :cr pucl'. c use :.s ec::ec. Ona: i j Q Overseas? .,n .,.,d A Yes. t .,4 Q Cces the NRC have an agreement with any overseas i c,.._.., .a_

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4 39 I that country concerning operating experience? 4 A No, and most of what we get from every country is 3 open information,but we' have agreements with all countries 4 to protect what they ask us to protect. 5 0 On a case-by-case or transient-by-transient basis? 6 A That's right. 7 C You indicated a few noments ago that you were 3 aware of a number of overseas transients that had scme 9 similarity to the TMI 2 incident in March of this year. 10 Do you recall now specifically which transients you 11 were referring to? 12 A There was a well-publicized incident in Germany 13 at Gundri=mingen. 14 Q When was that? 'o A I think the beginning of '77. Anncuncements were 16 made about it in Germany, about its effect and what happened i I. 17 there was a transient which led to opening of a pressure 13 ; release valve and the pressure relief valve was damaged and I s i '9 I didn't shut as it was succesed tc. t i 20 This is, as you knew, a very ccmmon concern with 21 pop valves, and a lot of water was spilled en the ficer and i 3.s it was in effect a bicwdewn of a system. 23 In that case, we talked :: :he cpera crs and the I 24 i governmen: pecple scen after i in a 10: cf detail and 23 unders:ced fully the kind of inciden: involved and used the Acme Reporting Comocny q

40 1 information here, and it was released through--I don't recall just how it was released, hcw it was used in our 3 regulatory or the licensing and inspecti^n side. I don't 4 know if I knew all the details, but I know it was thoroughly 5 considered here. It was well understood. Some of that was confidential and some wasn't. I I think I nentioned there have been a lot of information 3 worldwide about cracking of stainless steel pipes in BWR's 9 pipes. This is a continuing generic concern in BWR reacters. to Q Is that a concern which arises from plants going u solid? A lio. It is because of the :sciling regimes in the 13 steady state cperation of 3WR's. The tendency toward a ,nf2s, 14 certain kind of stainless steel cracking is greater in 3K4 15 than in ?WR's, and the cracking so far has not been i catastrophic. Ithasbeengraduh,andit I 16 is a well studied, cs .I well publicized phencmenon that we have to watch cc: for, I i {I ! anc we nave gotten a lot or experience crcm overseas :na: 1 4 9j in :ne usual nas ceen :actored into our data base here,anc.. i t. I 20 ' 4 wav we ce: such informacien, it is stally i- = --=--- i 19 report being used currently in an everseas agency, and i: i m has some kind of protection en it, c usuall" wha we de in 3 a case like tha: is we use it and when we are ge :ing ready 44 - to pun _, sn sene:n.ing, ke an annual cr a current, an upda:e i. 3: One ..3 CrackinC. O. nenCnenen re.:C rt, Ne WCula. .0c.< at Wha: s.4 c Acme Reporting Company ~...

i 49 4 finally came cut of the report and see whether it re flects 1 closely enough scmething that happened overseas that hasn' t 3 been publicized overseas, and then check if necessary with 3 the owner as to whether we can release that or whether 4 we have to mcdify it. 5 0 With regard to the Gundrimmingen transient, were 6 you provided with the German equivalent of an LER on that transient? 3 A I don't knew. I would have to look back and see. 9 We were told about the incident dire.::tly bv the government 10 and bv a captive contractor cf the government in Germany. 11 0 A" A**#iC^^? 12 A And I don't know whether one of the listings that 13 we get of German continuing experience had an incident ,4 en it. I'm sure it did. 15 O Would that be an A:,erican contractor? Io. A No. After we learned about this, we had many discussions with the German Ministry of Intericr, which is i l 9I the reculatorv orcanization, with the state, the German i l .f .'O ,i state government of Bavaria, peceple there, with the GES, /. 7 which is their, it is an organization that dces technical w ,,, I supper work and research for the Ministry of Interior :n l a Continuing basik,, god-I fCn't knCW what the wCrds are. .33 e a I GRS :.s the Ot.tfit, and in that case, we also eventually 3 invcived the utility because we visited there and the ,5 l A G e S p.', '.$ C.Mt', F' T - 'A k F A.< M S CO A N I-Acme Recorting C o m m e n v.

42 1 General Electric Company was involved because they were 2 there and built the plant. 3 Q Was this a boiling water reactor? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Would it be possible for you to get ahold of 6 whatever report was provided to you on this transient? Perhaps we can mark it as an exhibit to the deposition. 8 A I can give you what has been released, approved 9 for release. 10 Q Let's take a look a" that. Shall we go off the 11 record for that? 12 A Yes. 13 (A discussion was held of f the record.) 14 MR. HELFMAN: On the record. 15 THE WITNESS: The use of such information in our 16 report, cf course, is where in really, is its usefulness l 1-to us and where it makes a centribution to cur safety in I 13 : this country. l t BY MR. HELFMAN: 19l I 29 Q Oces your office keep track of the use made by 21i the NF.C of info.r.ation? i sJo. 23, 0 Oc rou recall any other everseas ::ansients cha: 4 \\ l 24 i ha te scme commen marks with the CC 2 inciden: cf ". arch 25 cf this year? i Acme Reporting Compcny

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43 A There was a French incident that haccened since then, 1 by the way, since the Three Mile Island, at a reactor called CAP in scuthern France which had c failure in a 3 steam generator. It was a scecial kind of reactor with a 4 steam generator in the head of the reactor, and it resulted 5 in a transient and some leakage of a small amount of 6 radiation, d I think if you analyzed, which we are presumably 3 doing because we furnished the information to the staff 9 here, it you would find some elements very similar to what 0 happened at Three Stile Island. I Q Do you recall if PORV failure was involved in this? ,,l 5. t A No, I don' t Ehink it was. '3 Q Co you recall whether in the German transient which 14 4 to. 1 you described cperator action was involved in that transient, ocerator error let's say? to. A I don't recall. There was another incident in 1 i i Germany after that one I think. g ,9l Q Pricr to TMI 2? j i i A Yes--wherein operators didn't believe sc=e 7 1 instruments er for sc=e other reascn r cie an error permitting ' 3 a centinuing, an incident tc aggravate. C Cc you recall when that was? a A It was after the Gundrimmingen One, but it was before Three ?.ile Island. The Occurranca, the fac hat an 3 I l Acme Reporting Company

t 44 LW incident of that kind occurred.were publicized, were in i the papers, and there were a couple of others that hapt.ened. 2 There has been an incident that you asked about earlier, 3 the one in*one countrv. in Euroc.e where there was a ~ Westinghouse 4 type reactor. 5 O Let's finish with the second German incident -6 before we move on to others. Do you recall the vender? A No. As I recall, the special interest in that one g was the operator error, the operator inaction that might g have, that if continued might have caused serious incident to and if terminated earlier would have cut down on the 11 inportance of the incident. g Q Would it be oossible to get the equivalent of an LER 13 whatever was provided to you on this second German incident? g A I guess so. 15 Q Perhaps we should go off the record while you make 16 the arrangenents? g A Co you want to beIin all of these incidents? Oc .S I l e you want all the information, and an to make a cceplete ,9 search of all that we have and all that we have reported en .0, s this? .. i i There are incidents that have occurred, they e haven': cccurred, but cur discussicna dn, cur interes: have 3 v cccurred in one er acre neetings and in several documented 4 repcrts, and it-wculd be a research project to do this, 3 l Acme Reporting Comcony

45 Q What I would liko is initially whatovar you can find and if there is additional material available and you can get your hands on it after the deposition today is recessed, I would appreciate your providing it to me, perhaps through :4r. Rehms' secretary or directly from your office, and if we have any questions, we can perhaps get in contact with you and ask you if there is additional information. ch A You are just selecting the ones that I cycfce to 3 remember as examples. Do you want everything we have ever g I recorted on a foreign incident? 10 Q Is there some list that you could refer to that would cive us an idea of overseas recorted transients and a 12 rouch idea of what was involved in the transient? ~ 13 A We could make one u=, but I don't knew if it would 14 he ccm,lete and it would require a lot of werk. 15 Q Well, I hate to add to the burdens that your 16 office already has in handling its workicad, but desc.ite mv. personal reluctance, I think that I have an cbligation to ,3 i I ,9; request the information, and so would in be ecssicle :cr vcu l 5 I i to arrange to have made up such a list which would then be 20 - l i transmitted to our of fice upcn completien? .5 i A Transients overseas? ) Q Cverseas transients with a brief description of i 4, i the elemen s 0: :ne transients. 24 t, A Ycu have thcusands and thousands of ::ansients in ., 2 1 Acnne Reporting Company su < >....

I I 46 I the United 3tates. 2 Q All right. Let's try to limit it then. Perhaps 3 we can confine ourselves to everseas transients which 4 involved PORV failures, open or closed; pressurizer level 5 indication problems; containment actuation problems; operator 6 error based on disbelief of indicator readouts; core 7 uncoveries; divergence of core coolant inventory and pressure 3 level indication. 9 A Pressure level indication? 10 0

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z A 11 A Operator error, di.sbelie7e"of instruments probably 12 is in every transient that ever occurred. 13 0 Well, perhaps we ought to limit that further-- r operator error based on disbelieje'of indicators indicating 14 ~- 15 core coolant level or pressure level, operator interruption 16 of HPI; I think for the mcment that should do it. 17 Co v.ou have an'I idea how lene it would take to c.ut n 15, tcgether such a list? 1 19! A My problem is we have a rec = full of foreicn l I 20l reports, some of which we haven't translated. i 21 Og 'p'e ll then, let's put an additional limi en that anh .CM d 8 0 - 2 o -=.."..- ' ..-=..s =-...., =- - e = s - =.. ' a.. a, a t 23l and perhaps that will exclude che bulk cf material :ha: has 1 t 24 not ye: been ::anslated. i i l 25 ' A Would you wan: :c confine

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47 I l 1 to the attention of the ceople here, of the technical people g here? 3 C How would you be able to provide me with a lis of transients that did not ccme to the attention of the NRC? 4 5 I don't see quite what you are asking. 6 A We send routinely copies of reports that we receive from the foreign governments, but I am not sure how much 3 they are used, just like our LER's are used. I am not sure 9 that there is any systematic evaluation that gces on, but I to think those that we know are important or we are told are important by the overseas governments or make the headlines; i j h. 1o. are c.icked up bv c.eople doinc periodic studies or studies s 3 of special kind of croblems, those would be the enes that i 14 might have been studied by MRC. 15 Q New I don't think that we want to limit it to those r.o-that have been reported in the papers or those that g. received particularly intensive study. by the NRC. I think 13l we will just leave it. i I 9l A At the end of the question, my question is why are. j i i 29l we picking on transients,because just that is what happened l i i at TMI? There are other kinds of saferv. c. roblems that :o on i that are studied in various countries all the time. Q That's a goed point. Woulf a foreign government i .a u, report to you a defect thev. found ina piece cf equipment, i even if a ::ansient didn't resul:? n .t i l Acme Reporting Company

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48 1 A Yes, like the cracking business of stainless steel. 2 Q Okay. Let's include in that list then reporus 3 of problems with or defects with the PCRV, pressuri::er le'iel 4 indication, precedures concerning operator interruption of 5 HPI, and containment actuation, whether or not they resulted 6 in transients or accidents. ~ A This will ignore all of the unreported, I mean all 3 of the unwritten meetings where much of our information W 9 transmic-to Many times scmeone comes here to ask about a cucrent 11 croblem) and he discusses it with the people who are here. '2l Q Would there he some way of including in the list 13 material that is received in that fashien? 14 A I doubt it, unless we started interviewing every L5,. .'s_.c- .o ".e a-a'.". 16 Q Let's divide the list ir*._ three parts--the first 1~ part dealing with transients or accidents involving the items i i l 13, --o o_a,. . w.. a _w i secen -a_. e. eat _ g .._.w ...e ya 4-,,3_,. :.___ s ~ -. i 19 of ecuipment or precedures which were neced but did not i i 20, -= '~ ' - _ s " - _.. a c _ A_ e.. '. ~ ~ ~. ~ _= n s _* a.. ~. s, a ~.c' ". '. = ". '.. _ ' '

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49 A What is ths third it;m? I Q Information concerning either accidents and transients or the material covered in the second part, which ,e information was transmitted to you through conversations or meetings or discussions and which was not reduced to official reports, LER's and so forth, the material that you suggested would require interviewing everyone on the staff to get all of it, and then we would recognize that the third cart would be incomplete due to the fact that it would be 9 based on the memorv of oecple and so forth. ~ 10 A I will furnish you a list of visitors who come on the teoics thev have discussed. 12 0 And where thev came from? e ,E A Yes. 14 Q All right. Let's make that the third part then. A I frankly think you are wasting your time, but that's ckay. It', not my business to think that. Q Wav do vou think we would be wasting our time?

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e A Secause you are asking :cr every hing :na: exists. 19 i .3 ; Co you plan : take all of this stuff 1 ke that bcck there i and c.o back to day one? There are hundreds of thcusands of .,1 i ,,l entries. I wcn't have a hundred thcusand.

will have what we have gotten in our =cre or less successful earches.

,a, Q Shall we start with 1973? I 04 ' ,,i A That wen't make any difference. There wasn': an Acme Reporting Comocny ....4...

50 1 NRC before '75. 2 Q Let's start with 1975. The problem is I really 3 don't know how useful tne material is going to be until I see it. 4 5 A It will be about as useful as what is in there. s After v.ou see it vou sav well, a transient, and it is uoinc. to take a hell of a lot of work to put together. I think I S will do it. I will check and see if I can do it. 9 O If.you complete the first c. art before.vou complete to the other two, you can _ complete that and if you complete the it second part before you do the third, you can transmit that. 1 It will.crobabl.v be easier for us to c.et it as you complete 13 it-14 A The stuff that I have read before we passed on in 15 comes in the form that was in these grav. books--a brief 16 narrative description of the problem that might have t-occurred during the period. I ,a. Q Would it be with a compcsite of all cverseas i 9 transients, or do particular countries provide gray bcok I i ^0, tv.ee summaries of the transients they have experienced? 3 .u. A. There is a ree.crt frca the IAZA on ime.er an: I .i cperating experience of all the wer' d reactors er all me=ber 23 reac crs during a year. l n .. _ A,. b g .,5 A ?.e International A:cmic Ener.r Ac. enc r n 7ienna, and l Acme Reporting Company l

l 51 1 1 there is a similar report by EURATCM, but the basic o.roblem here is that we will have a certain bulk of data 3 and it will be difficult for you to see how semebcdy might have used it. 4 5 Q In any event, that is not something that your office follows? g A No. v 3 Q So that information we would have to get from another office or branch within NRC? 3 A Yes. ,0 it Q '4 hen you receive this information dich branch do you

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transmit it to? Is that I&E, licensinc? A At least to NRR, licensing that is, and usually 13 I&E and maybe research,/)_f it has to do with non-reactor e 14, facilities, to MMSS to material safety and safecuards. to. 16l Q Co ycu also transmit information to operating i reactors? t-s- i Y 13 A Ch,j r to the division in-NRR, yes, we send it Oc i i NRR, and then they are usually our contact and we either

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send it to them directly if we knew they are the ones who .,0 .s. - are interested in it, er we send in to NR2 and let chem decida what to do with it. .m. 4 l Q Ckav.. So.ius: to summarize acw, rou are c.oinc. :o t provide to us :0 day befers the depositten is completed the ,.4 3

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52 I can't proncunce the name, Gundrimmingen transient, and then 2 the second German transient which you mentioned which 3 occurred af ter the first, but before TMI 2, which involved 4 some sert of operator action or inaction based en disbelief 5 of indicators. 6 A Yes. 7 Q And then some time after the conclusion of the 8 deposition, the list that we have composed concerning 9 overseas transients. 10 Do you have any idea how long it would take? 11 A I am not sure we have kept them all. That's the 12 prchlem. We have passed them on and we have increased here 13 from a staff of 2 to a staff of 10 or so in the last three 14 or four years, and I will have to go back and see how goed 15 we have kept copies of it. What I will give you won't be is complete in any way. 17 Q Would two weeks be a reasonable time estimate? l I is i A Yes. I i 19 I Q All right. You were mentioning a few =cments ago 00 ; another incident involving a Westinghouse everseas reac:cr. 21 Could you continue with that? i 22 ' A Yes. I have a statement here tha: I can give you i i 23 cn it. t 24 Q May I have that? 05 A

cangive you a little bit more inf0rmation.

Acme Reporting Company

53 1 MR. HELFMAN: Before you do, let's mark this as 2 an exhibit to the deposition. 3 (LaFleur Exhibit No. 3 was 4 marked for identification.) 5 THE WITNESS: For the time being, we are treating 6 that as confidential, but not as classified. ~ BY MR. HELFMAN: 3 Q All ri ht. This statement which you have provided 9 me has been marked Exhibit No. 3 to your deposition. It is to a two paragraph statement beginning with quote, the 11 paragraph, and then unquote, and then at the end of the 12 statement, unquote. 13 Could you tell me what enis is quoting from? 14 A It is a statement that we sant to the origina:crs 15 of the information proposing after seme discussion, proposing 16 what we.might say in public about it. Q I see. o I i 15 A And then it says how about the following statement i 19l being used, and qucta, unquote. I 20! Q Did they request deletion of sc=e information tha: i 21 ' vcu had cricinally suggested might ce c scicsed? 22 ' A I don't recall. I didn' do it. 23 o ,; - w.a. a-..,.. n...a.......,. yaa- -e..... ... a. a a -. a.. t 24 ; cricina:Or? I, 25 A

don't recall.

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1 1 1 24 1 Q Would it be possible for vou to find out if there were? A This is all that is approved for release. 3 Q By the NRC? 4 V%, ~ A Sy t.,n. (A discussion was held off the record.) 6 MR. HELFMAN: Back on the record. i 3Y MR. HELFMAN: 3 Q I note that this report, the statement which you 9 10 have provided and which has been marked as Exhibit No. 3, refers to a Westinghouse reactor in which a PORV valve was 11 challenged and failed to close, that te valve is essentially 13-I i 13 the same as those usad on Westinghouse reactors. The statenent dces not indicate the date of the ,4 transient. Are you aware of approximately when this la. transient cccurred? 16 A Yes. 3 Q When is that? i 9: A I can't tell you, only because it is not included i in the ccmplete statement that we were allcwed te release. .,0 i ? Q Okay. The information which is held ccnfidential 1 is Oursuant cc an agreemen; between the SEC and-- A Cne of the c:her countries. .a .3,, Q 3etween che NRC and that country?

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i 55 Q And the information that vou cannot disclose i 1 ) i includes the date of the incident? A The only information that I have permission to g disclose is what is in the statement. 4 Q I should note.for the record that the statement 5 does not contain the name of the country, the name of the 6 reactor, the date of the incident. It does not indicate what a corrective measures were taken. It docs not indicate the 3 date on which the incident was repcrted to the NRC or who g reported it. g Now with resoect to this transient, is it possible for vou to disclose when the NRC became aware of it? 12 i l I h A I don' t know i so est whether I could tell vou what I "'~ 13 L. ~ know about when we learned about it. I guess I am 14 ' i la.! obligated to tell you. I don't know of any basis for denying i 16 1 It came after the Three Mile Island incident. It i i I happened before. '9 lq Since the time this transient was reported to the Q t NRC, has the NRC communicated with Westinghouse concerning g I this transient? .3, A I think thev have. I think I have heard tha: they i have. I have nce. i l Q Ycur office has not been invcived in that? l 04.i ,, 1 A I fen't think se, no. .a 1 l Acme Reporting C o m p e n v,

56 t Q Are you aware of whether this transient also 2 involved a containment isolation problem? 3 I have been led to believe that this particular 4 reactor--strike that. Are you aware of whether this 5 transient involved an HPI actuation problem? I have been 6 led to believe that the design required both a pressure indication and a coolant level indication to actuate HPI 3 but that during the course of this transient, pressure.and g coolant level diverged. to A I would rather not answer. I feel comfortable only 11 in talking about what is in the statement there. 12 Q Would it be possible to confer with Mr. Chepko 13 concerning my question and perhaps he could advise you as to 14 whether you can discuss that matter? 13 A We can confer separately, but I think I made in 16 clear that the only permission, release that I can make about it is there. t-I I i MR. HELFMAN: Shall we co off the reccrd for this i i tg ' conference? I t, 29 : (The witness conferred with his counsel.) I i 21 MR. HELFMAN: Let's c,c back on the record. Cculd r v.ou read back the las; e:: change? as r 33 (The record was read by the reporter.: i l l 24 MR. HELFMAN: Mr. Chopko has a statemen to make n concerning the confidentiality of the informani:n as it Acme Recerting Company

.31 t relates to Exhibit No. 3. 2 MR. CHOPKO: As I understand, based on off the 3 record discussions, Exhibit No. 3 marked for identification in this deposition is the only statement now which the 5 NRC has had approval from the originator to release, and it 6 is,the four corners of the dccument represent the now authori::ed publicly available information on the incident. 3 I will point out for the record that the NRC 9 regulations specifically prohibit the production of exempt 10 material in 10 CFR Section 9.12, ard the matter of 11 confidentiality of this information is still the subject of discussion. ,.s 13 I have proposed and Mr. LaFleur has agreed to follow 14 up discussing this matter with staff counsel and with chief counsel for the President's Co::' mission, Mr. Gorensen, 15 and that I ex=ect that eicher more information will be tg ac.c. roved for release, or there will be some confidential I i ..f. 6..%. u.%.a c. o-. :.Am,.s. C-. .4. 4 .s. .- a. a...a......

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t _a8 gyt4. 'anc decide what to ask the other g because chare is a t l o. danger that he could over-react and c.ive us verv. nec.ative ) 3 response unnecessar.lv. i :. we ace. rcacn :.t wrong, so we are thinking in terms of going back to him and trying to see wha 4 5 =cre we can get released, but we haven't decided yet when or how to do it. 6 I think we can do it in a couple of days. The last 3 time we got a clearance in a matter of two or three days 9 to release that statement. 10 SY MR. HEIJMAN: Q Then if vou receive such a clearance from the 1,. 1o criginator, vou would I presume notify the President's 13 C0= mission and we could reconvene the deposition and 14 cbtain that information from you at that time? Dces than 13 seem a workable arrangement? l 16, A Yes. Q You have indicated previously that this transient 1-l 3; cccurred pre-Oi!, and the NRC was notified of the transient ,9 ;e by the originator post-TMI. t i I Coulc. you ce more spec:.::.: :.n terms of prev:. d. ng i

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_a 1_ Q co you know whether the vender of this particular 2 plant wh:.wh according to this statement is Westinghouse found cut about the transient? 3 A Do I know when he found out? 4 5 Q When the vender was notified and when you say you 6 do not know te you saying that you cannot disclose the information or that vou do not have the information? 3 A I do not have it. I do not know when Westinghouse g learned about the incident, and I am saying that because I 10 don't have the information, not because I am bound not to disclose it. it 1., Q Co you know if Westinghouse found out a.re or cost-f 13 . o ---==m-( A lio. 14 l 15 Q This statement which is marked as Exhibit 3 confines itself pretty much to the part played in the transient by 1. the PCRV and its failure to close during the transient. l 13 Ecwever, the statement does not address the ICCS l . o. ' actuation involved in the transient. Are you aware of the l rcle claved bv ECCS actuation in this transient? I I .so, .u. MR. CECPKC: I dcn't know that there is a way 00 i l 22l answer that questien without some breech of ccafidentiality. i i 23 MR. HELIMA:i: I haven't gotten := that questien I i ,4 > yet.

inagine if I asked for the disc 1:scres of the

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I 60 I would arise. C MR. CHOPKO: Just the fact that you are asking a, 3 question that doesn't appear in the four corners of Exhibit 3 'I 4 think you are asking into protected areas. 5 THE WITNESS: I would rather not answer. 6 MR. HELFMAN: De v.ou knew whether following the 7 disclosure of this transient the NRC issued a regulation 3 requiring Westinghouse plante in the United States to change 9 ECCS actuation? 10 MR. CHOPKO: I am going to object again. It is 11 obviously the factual material that is restricted. 12 MR. HELFMAN: Well, the question I am asking 13 concerns a reg directed to domestic plants. 14 MR. CHOPKO: But the beginning of your question is 15 based on first knowledge of the details of the transient, 16 and then an imo. licit assu==_ tion that the details were semehow 17 factored into an analysis. 13, MR. HELFMAN: My cuestien was cuita scecific and I i i 19 that simply establishes a timeframe. I will repeat the i 20 cuestion. i l i 21 Are.icu aware cf whether after this transien came ~, .e...t.. n: .-.e a -,-ag -n .w - ...~a -e-- w '3l

o the opera:crs of Westinghouse plants in this country 04i requiring a change in the 200S actuation system?

4 .,s,. .v.,. c.:c v e..c. g..a.,. .. - b., e c - ' ~-.. ' a e -

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e Acme Reporting Company

61 same grounds. MR. HELFMAN: I ~ will reframe the question. Are you aware of whether post-TMI, NCR promulgated a regulation requiring the operators of Westinghouse plants in this country to alter their method of ECCS actuation? MR. CHOPKO: If you know. ,o 7.HE WITNESS: I am aware,.ves. I cersonally worked 4 on - e distribution to all the other countries of this S statement, of this requirement. 9 3Y MR. HELEMAN: 10 Q Do you have a copy of that new requirement available? i n_ A I think so. 13 Q Could we obtain a copy for the purposes of the decosition? 15 A Ckav. 16 MR. HELfMAN: Let's c.o Off the record. Le i i (A discussion was held off the record.)

9. a-f

- r__.e.v_LsI. i, - v. LR. m n l '. Q-t I i Q When you receive notification of a trans:.ent sucn 1 i as the seacement centained in Exhibi: No. 3, do you distribute i his in acccrdance with vcur foreien distribution lia ? i f tell teccle abcut wha: A Nc. We are oblicated : I ha:c. ens here, but.ct what happens everseas. - i Sc the cbliganicn :: spread the i.. formation en an Acme Reporting Company

62 intarnational bacis rocta with the originator? t 2 A Yes. However, again after we digest and make this, i after we use this information in our process and do ao 4 something with it to our reactors, then it gets into our own instructions. It is factored, it has been factored into our 5 g own instructions for shutdown of U. S. plants or review of design or ocerational procedures or something like that, and 3 then we do distribute it in the usual routine to others as g reflecting what we are doing in our plants. 'to Q I see. In this stat'ement marked as Exhibit No. 3, 11 there is indicated a statement from Westinghouse that 1g "Although PORV's are expected to only relieve steam, thev are i I 13 nevertheless capable of passing 2 phase and liquid water 14 and that no destructive failure of the valve body will eccur , a-j for anv fluid conditicns passing through the valve. The . i 6 staff does not have documentation to support this contention." Was this statanent bv. Wastin9 ouse made in responsa h u 3: to an NRC inquiry based on the notification of thiz transient,, cr was this a statement made by Westinghouse which cre-dated ,9 : s r I .'O the notification from the originator concerning this transient? A I don't know. 3, .e. Q Are you aware of who had the--

1

'l h A It is a fact that mest of these valves that are ,ea, 2; designed to handle steam can handle a certain secunt of twc o' phase er liruid fluid, and so I guess :his :s semebcdv 3-Acme Reporting Company 1:2' 4254999

63 i reporting Westinghouse having'said that it should be ac.c.licable in these desicns. 3 v Q You don' t know if this was the respcnse to an -O 4 inquiry which was cited by this recort? A No. o 6 Q Do v.ou knew who in the NRC had the contact with Westin9 ouse followin9 the receic.t of this recort? h A Peccle in NRR; I don't know. I thin'< I heard that g this fellow Thadani had been in touch with ther. 10 Q Did the notification frem the originator :cre to 11 your office first within NRC and then did you notifv NRR or

i. 3 was NRR made aware of this by the oric.inator crior to your 13 o :24 cas 1

A I think NRR got it first. Because of this j 14 l 13 sensitivity, sometimes we receive information not directed l s.e to us, to the NRC staff, but thrcuch a vender or some other 1 t

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64 1 really aware of that transmission, so it is not unusual 2 to receive it when the government over there decides that 3 it is time that they are obligated to tell us. ~~~~ 4 I am not talking about hi instance, but in all 5 instances, it is not unusual to receive it from another 6

c. a r t v..

7 0 If the information is received from the vender or 3 the operator rather than directly from the government 9 involved, does that information nornally get transmitted to to your office rather than some other branch within the NRC? 11 It is unusual that this information was transmitted 12 first to NRR. 13 A The several people hear about it sort of 14 concurrently, and NRR is really stuck with the question of 15 how do we use it and all these protection problems I have '6 been mentioning and so they for that reason forward it to 17 us and we start working with i: to define the regime of I 15 i protection that is required. i 19 i, Thi,s is not oniv government secrecy. It is very 20 eften stuff. It very often involves, I think i I mentioned earlier :ne r_, gnes c: ene commercia scurce. 22 It is real clear. It is really clear in the laws, for example, i 23 of Canada that information chtained from a private utill:y 24 cr other private source ich is his information which j 25 belongs to him is :: be treated, obtained by the icvernmen: Acme Reporting Company

65 i. in the course of its rec.ulatory actions, activities, is to 2 he protected, is to be treated still as though it were the 1 3' info =ation of the source, and the property of the scur e, 4 and this definition goes considerably beyond what we would tolerate and accept as proprietarv rights in NRC. I think you -o 6 realize that in our own government, the various functions deal with a little bit different definitions of prcprietary 3 rights. 9 For, example, the laws requiring, the laws concerning U 10 b [~" citing f material require much tighter ~~~~*~~ ) it protect *on or t.ne designers > and the selle rs secrecy r:. ~ .gnes . e. in his.cro.certv., that he is experting, than we would nc= ally i accec. t, ecause or. cur oc.en sv. stem or regulat on. c 4 1o 14 CC 700 follCW 2e? l i I Q Tes. uli I i Do you agree? Do you know that? 16l l e Q Well, what vou sav doesn ' t ac. c. ear en the f ace te

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4 be unreascnable. 1 i 9' A Certainiv amonc the ccher countries, the ceccie s h i + t w.w. - we.g w- -. - -.. a.., -,. -u we..., 3 < m.. :.. ....a......--....a.-- a .,9 h under the fcurth exec =tien initia11 r reac with en-belief, .v. m ..,. d :.- u.e. :%w~. .u.. a...-..e..,2.,.n, -.a ..e g,.

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66 defined it, and the practices are a lot different than here and we are ;rotecting it at their request. We are not protecting it by our direct definitions. 3 Q Would it be fair to state that the concern of the foreign originator is that if this confifential information .a were disclosed to the F.=erican public it would inevitably b be disclosed to the public of the originating country? A Primarily what we are talking about is information 3 that they feel they own and that a :cmpetitor might benefit g from, or that they feel they own and although they are g giving it to the government because the government has an obligation to regulate them, nevertheless it is to be used only for that purpose and they have a right to prevent its ,3 1 use in any other way, and so the other reason, to prevent t la, i embarrassment, I guess in t'r.: case the answer would be i l .ve s. The.v assume if it came oIt in our headlines ecmcrrow i l.. morning, it would come out in theirs, too. ,. i i' n. .A..d w u.'d a_..~"_=_-. U, - t A

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a_ x '. a_. *...'.a '. b. a _.',-..'. a. _- a_ a s v.. 3-i i It is nore. The basis for dcing it is more a traditional, j ,0 i a long-tern policy of no: letting any such government _4. _ g.-.. _ :.._ v,.. e r.. _...... a g "_a_ s _ _4 ~. o _" " "..-.."... ' a s _- a.. a_ -. "; safety information. That is only One of many, many categcries ,,.a w 7 a _# # e -*. A. "o be..o ". m,..:. 4.. _ ^- _-"...a ",. #. w P. . - a_ _' _ m a e '...' e.~ e' " a " _#.'..". _' ',

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.-... - ~. -. = l t 67 1 Q For a number of reascns, including the proprietary 2 rights of the owner of the information and also the desire 3 of the originating government to avoid embarrassment by 4 disclosure of such information to their own domestic 5 population-- 6 A You have to go about it the other way. Our policy 7 of full disclosure to the public for the cood of the society S and for the protection of the public is a very novel one. 9 That is what is radical in this international relation to business. It is not that we can pin down some reasons why 11 we think they are protecting it in the other countries. It 12 is rather our experiment in democracy that is unusual. 13 ( A discussion was held off the record.) 14 SY MR. HELFMAN: 15 Q Mr. LaFleur has handed me II bulletin No. 79-06 16 dated Acril 11, 1979 entitled "F.eview of Operational 17 Errors and Syst.em Misalignments Identified During the Three i 3 - 'd 4 ' = Isla i Incident." i i ,l 19 ' A Did you read this? 20 l Q The number? I f 21i A Yes. 22 C Yes. Could ycu find in this bulletin for me the 22 reference :: 5?! initia:icn based on pressure level and i 1 24

c'=--

' ave:. indicatiens? I 25 (A discussion was held of f the record.} i Acme R ep ortin g Comocny L

.08 s' 1 BY MR. EZLFMAN: 2 Q Mr. LaFleur has pointed to page 2, paragraph 5 of 3 bulletin No. 79-06--excuse ne, paragraph 3, which reads, 4 "For pressurized water reactor facilities that use pressurizer 3 water level coincident with pressurizer pressure for automatic 6 initiation of safety injection into the reactor coolant system, instruct operators to manually initiate safety 3 injection when the pressurizer pressure indication reaches 3 the actuation set point whether or not the level indication 0 has droc. e. ed-to the actuation set coin t. " 11 Now would I be correct in concluding from this t.o.

c. ara,raph that the solution nandated bv bulletin 79-06 is a 13 procedural solution rather than a design change?

A Yes. It sounds like it to me. I am oniv. t r v. i n c. ,4 to find somethine. that pertains to this. I am not familiar so 16 with all the response that was made to this kind of problem. t. 0 Are vou aware of any bulletins that may '.1 ave come I t af ter this recuiring a design chan e in actuation of ECC5? 4 A I believe the recent rec. o rt to the Ccmmissian en ,9 ; i l .0,. lessons learned frca Three Mila Island ;rescribes scte I chances in desian ccacept that wculd include this. = Q Would that be the.short-;ern lesscns learned 3 which was issued on July 13:h cf this vear? s 24 .s _ :nin.< sc.

3 C

Su ycu are ner specifically aware of ary such-- i Acme Reportine C o m o c n v,

69 A I am not aware of whether that, exactly how it is 2 dealt with in that report or of whether there was some other actions between here and there. 3 4 Q on the basis of the report that you have in your hand, would it appear that the automatic actuation of ECCS -a e or F P remains tied to the coincidence of pressure and level indication? 4 3 A Just on the basis of this paragraph; there is no indication +: hat it has been ta'<en off c f that. 9 10 Q All right. 1: MR. HELFMAN-We would like to have thin bulletin t.o_- marked as an exhibit to the decosi tion, Exhibit 4 I beli eve. (LaFleur Exhibit No. 4 was 13 marked fcr identification.) 14 1 Sv..V.R. "" :'.v.'.'i.- toI i.o-l. 0 Was your of fice involved in the creoarati en and/or l, arcmulcat on of btlletin No. 79-06? i I

3,

A No.

g Q

Was this bulletin distributed on a worldwide basis j i .,0 tc the pecole en ycur distribut.ica list? i r 21 A I think af ter d:.scuss cns w:.:n scme c: the venders l 2 l and licensses. I think it mentiens in some of these cha: 1, ~ > " there had been a meeting with the venders invcived :c 24 discuss the applicability. Sc=ewhere as I recall rhem tha: care cun that was noted. .s -a Acme Recorting Comocny

70 1 Q Was your office involved in meeting with venders, o the discussions concerning this? 3 A No. 4 Q-Nould this bulletin have been distributed to the 5 originator of the information concerning the transient 6 addressed in Exhibit No. 3, Westinghouse's transient? ~ A I think we have already told you, it came from one 8 of the people we cooperate with and this went to all the 8 people we cocperate with. 10 Q So bulletin 79-06 wouLd have gens to the originator U of the Westinghouse transient inforniation? 12 A Yes, by mail; it would have taken a week er two. 13 New we might have sent it also in a telegram, the substance 14 o4 4 15 Q Are you aware of whethc

hat was done?

7' 1 I will have to dig cut the telegrams. i l. MR. HELFMAN: Off the record. i t i 15l (A discussion was held off the record.) l ,o i MR. HELFMAN: Anticipating what.vour respense will r b ,n 1 -~ i he, let ne indicate to you seme questions cha I had -19 r anticipated asking you ahcut that Westincheuse transien and y;; if.vcu f?.el that 704 are unabla to OrOvide inf0rraticn ahcut '3 any c: tnem, clease do so, anc L:- not, p. ease incicate that .i U -vcu are unable tc. I d3 The statenen:

• tich has been T.arked Exhibit No. 3 a.

Acma '4 2 e n + i n n F., - n e n v

/ I 71 t does not mention coincident pressurizer level and pressure 2 level as part of the transient. .e Are vou aware of whether pre ssurizer level and 4 pressure level as actuaticn for ECCS was involved in that transient? 5 6 MR. CHOPKO: Objection. THE WITNESS: I can't answer. a 8 MR. HELFMAN: Are you aware of whether the transient j 9 involved a cavitation of pumps due to plant reaching the saturation coint? ,0 i MR. CHOPKO: Obiection to the whole line. ,1 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. 12 MR. HELFMAN: Exhibit No. 3 as I have mentioned is j 3 'I l. concerned almost exclusivelv with the ?ORV, but dces not <4 I 13 mentien whether the operator was able to de ect the problem to-and bicek the PORV at any c.oint in the transient. t-Are you aware of whether ocerator action was involved i in the PORV's involvement as addressed in Exhibit 3? i ,3 i MR. CHOPKO: I am going to cbject again ar.d I am l ,9 F going to have a continuing cbjection to every single .;9 cuesti,n that you ask beyond the four corners of.he dccumente. 3., i m_ You may want to 00nsider whether you want to cut L: cn the 30. record. 3! MR. HELFMAN: Io vou knew whether Ocers:Or i termination of HP! was invCived in the transient? .;3 Acme Racortino s o m e. o n y e 9 = w 9 i

i 72 MR. CHCPKC: Cbiection. 1 2 MR. HELFMAN: Do you know whether in this country plants other than Westinghouse plants prior to the issuance 3 of bulletin 79-06 relied on coincident actuation of ECCS? 4 5 Are you aware of whether the S&W, CE, or GE plant 6 employed such a system? MR. CHOPKO:. If you know. THE WITNESS: It is my impression they did, but I 3 don't know for sure. I assumed they did from the way it has 9 &.i$: aFS been de'rsni since the incident. to / BY MR. HELFMAN: 11 12 Q Coes that discussion that you refer to relate to any 13 specific vender other than Westinghcuse? A It related generally to all cf the venders, but 14 15, to no specific one. MR. HELFMAN: Let's go off the record for a minute. 16 (A discussion was held off the record.) t-MR. HELCMAN: 3ack on the record. You have i indicated, Mr. La?leur, that folicwinc TMI 2, the information ! 9 4 i' which is contained in I2 bulletin No. 79-06 was provided to .sg 1 certain overseas addressees and originators via telecram, .n. i I l 22 and you have handed =e what looks like a 77:0x copy cf a 3j telegram. It is entitled "US NRC. J. 3. LaF'leur, Jr., l ., I 4/11/79" folicwed by a phene number. We would like ::' rate this 2nrked as.he cen: Zahibi

3 i

q i il Acme Reporting Company )

73 i No. 5 I believe to the deposition. 2 (LaFleur Exhibit No. 5 was 3 marked for identification.) 4 SY MR. HELFMAN: 5 Q Would this telegram bave been sent to all of these 6 on your addressee list as rec:,.ients of telegrammed information? 3 A Yes. 9 0 You have provided me with two addressee 1.ists. to one of them bears the title " Air Gr:m," and a message 11 reference number A-0221, and ec the right of that is a list i 12! of what is entitled technical notification addressees. l 13 That list continues en to a second page. There are 14 a total of 29. Does this list contain the names of oversea s i 13 persens who received this telegram that has been marked as 16 Exhibit No. 5? I t:I A Oces it? I am worried about ene or two chances. i I 13 (A discussion was held cff the record.) io i 3Y MR. HILFMAN: I 00, Q The 29 addressees that are listed en the document et ; to which I have referred normally get the cabled information, l 1, would that be correct? i 2 i t 23 A Yes, plus the 6 cr 7 on the ccher lis: cha: 12 accng these things--: hose 6 in your left hand go by way of 25 cc=mercial cable whereas all the c hers go by way of fielematir l .i 1, Acme R e p o rtin o. C o m o c n v.

74 g ( H M w.w 4 ,T 1 Commun1 Cations. / 2 Q So there are the 29 addressees listed on the [ / 3l document which is entitled " Air Gram"? 4 A Some of those are two to a country, so we don't 5 send it to 29 different embassies. We sent to a lesser 6 number of embacsies. 7 Q And the embassies will then do further distribution? 8 A In the same courtry, yes. 9 0 Then there ir a further list of 6 addressees that to receive telegram noti.fication through commercial means? 11 A

• Ie s.

12 MR. HELFMAN: Let's go off the record on this. 13 (A discussion was held of f the record.) 14 MR. HELFMAN: 3ack on the record. I would like 15 marked as the next exhibit to the deposition the list of 16 cable addresse, including 29 who receive cable notification 1-through diplcmatic channels, and 6 who receive ccccercial 15 cable notification--three pages all together. i i t 19 (LaFleur Exhibit Mc. 6 was i i i t 1 I 20; marked fer identification. ) i .u. ov. v.R. u..r..r.e.u..'.-.. 22 0 ~4hile we are awaiting the 1:. s : cf addresses who I 03 received the cable of 4/11/79, let me ask whe:her the 1 l 24 inic=.aticn which :.s :entained in the cable :. s :cnfifen ial 25 cr classified er privileged? Acme Recorting Comocny

75 1 A No. g Q Let me read to you the third paragraph frem the 2 cable of 4/11/79. "The Three Mile Island Nuclear Pcwer 3 Plant t: nit 2 e:c:erienced significant core damage which 4 resulted from a series of events initiateti by a loss of 5 feedwater transient and compounded by ocerational errors. 6 Pressurizer level indication appears to have been a contributing factor by leading to erroneous inferences of 3 level in the reactor coolant system. It has been determined g that in some Westinghouse dess.gned facilities, coincident 10 low pressurizer cressure and low cressurizer level signals 11 are required to actuate safety injectica and further that 12 creliminary analysis of a small break in the ::ressurizer 13 indicates that LP may remain high while PP.:entinues to 14 decrease. In such a case, safety iniection would not to. autcmaticallv occur and reliance by the operator on LP 16 could possibly lead to erroneous actions. On Acril 7, 1979 g Westinghcuse advised owners with plants having coincident g 1 E logic for safety injecuion sie.nals that oserators shculd --,o I manually initiate safety i:.jectica if PP drops belcw the 00 ! safety injection initiation se: point." I Oc ycu new have :he list cf :he actual reci=ients cf this telegram? _a A Yes. i C May I see them, please? .,3 t Acme Reportmg company i $ 0E' 429 4990

76 i A Let me just check one here. That tells the 2 embassies. 3 (A discussion was held off the record.) 4 BY MR. HELEMAN: 5 Q You have handed me a list of embassies entitled 6, " Department of State Outgoine Telegram." Does this list accurately depict the recipients 3 of the 4/11/79 telegram? 9 A That list of embassies plus the airgram list to designating who in turn sreceives from the embassies copies 11 of the substance of these cables is a list, together 12 constitute a list of everybcdy who received telegraphic 13 notification of those summaries in that telegram. t4j Q You are referring to Exhibit No. 6? i 15l A Right. 16 MR. HELFMAN: We will have the list that you have I tj just handed me marked Exhibit No. 7.

3

(LaFleur '.!xhibit No. 7 was

9,

marked for identification.) i i f i 00 l THE W:! NESS: Tha: list is the ccmplete State l I i 2. Capartment te u.egram that went out wl:n m.is noel: Lea:Len in 4 22 it. ~

m. i MR. CECFF,0:

Oc ycu want the whole dccument Or "us: s 24 the list as an exhibit? 25 MR. HELIMAN: This entire page which cn its: ace Acme Recorting Comocny

i l 77 i also centains the text of the telegram as Exhibit No. 7. 2 SY MR. HILFMAN: 3 Q I also have been provided by Mr. LaFleur with five 4 lists of recipients of notifications. 5 A of mailings. 6 Q Are these the rec ipients of notifications by mail ( rather than by telegram? s A

Yes, When we say technical notification, we usually 9

are referring to the list on the airgram who receive the to advice of telegrams through the embassies. When we send it t.ne telegram, we sent one telegram to an embassy that 12 advises the people of the embass.v who includes the science ( ~~~ ,3 counselor in the embassy l who is usuallv the staff member 14 of the embassy who is interested and then he in turn is 15 i chils d by that airgram to co and give copies of the

i. o-substance of the message to tbt c.eoole in the tech l

notification list, which is on the airgram, se bv sending 3 u.. these cables, we disseminate the information to the embassies I 19 ' and to these official contacts designated under the terms i 20 of the agreement :: receive early notification cables. t

7. n a d d.i

._4 - ~...'....v.- .'.e - a 3 .'..a.. ...c-I 22 cc==ercial cables, and then this whcla lisn here is the ., :i ~..ai .c '4 _a i 24, Q Zet's see if we can get : bis laid down in the l record. "he l'.s On Inhibi: ::c. are American entassies tha ~ ..e I l o Ji Acme Reperting Compcny

78 t receive the telegrams and they are then obligated to 2 distribute the information to the addressees listed on 3 Exhibit no. 6? 4 A Right. 5 Q Then in addition to the telegraphic notification 6 and the dissemination by American embassies abroad, there are lists of recipients who receive notification by mail, 3 is that not correct? 9 A Right. 10 Q And th list of mail recipients are contained in ti five lists which you have handed me? 1o. A Whv don't we count the pages and make it all one list? 13 14 Q Perhaps we can make it one e:chibit, but identify 15 them by title. The first is entitled "U. S. Embassy Science 16 t-Attaches and Counselors list, Revised March, 1979," 13 ; censisting of fcur pages. 1 19f The second list is entitled, " Foreign Embassy i i Scientific Counselcrs is C, 2evised May, 1973," consisting 29 t of four pages. i l The next is entitled, " Technical 'ict fication e> j Addressees .is: A, ?.evised Mav., l??9," cons sting of three 5 .,..I e a c. e s. Then there is a 1 3: entitled, " Admin stra::rs and 23 Acme Re=orting Comocn'

79 9 Others Not on the Tech Motice List," concisting of a singlo page with five addressees listed, and the final is a single page with the handwritten title "GSA Cable Addressees for r.iI," containing 6 addressees, Were these lists uhat were employed in notifying the receipients concerning the TMI incident? g A Yes. Q Were these same lists used to notify the recipients g ofother transients or was this list composed for the StI g notification? 10 ' /phis is the list primarily F A The permanent list e- .1 l used for TMI, modified from ermanent lists for use with TMI. ~ 12. i Q For TMI, was the list ex=anded? A Yes. 14 MR. HELFMAN: Let's have these lists marked as 15 l a sincle exhibit to the decosition, Exhibit No. 8 16 (LaFleur Exhibit !o. 3 was 1i i i marked for identification.) 15 I ME. HELFMAN: 3efore we turn frem the sub"'ect 19 ! I I ofthe telegram, I call your attention to page 2 of the telegram. Exhibit No. 5. It indicates that on April 7th, ,.1 1977 Westinghcuse advised owners with clants hav:.ng 00:.nc.deni 20 i 'cgic for safety injection si:nals tha: Operators shoulf manually inizia:e safety iniection if ?? drecs belcw the 4 i. .,. i safety injecnicn initiation point. Acme Reporting Company

.~ 80 t Ars vou aware of whether NRC had been advised bv. 2 Westinghouse prior to Westinghouse advising owners with 3 suc plants? THE. WITNESS: I am not. 4 MR. HELFMAN: Concerning Exhibit No. 3, which is 5 6 the statement describing the European Westinghouse transient based on your knowledge of that transient, do you belief than if that information had been available to the NRC 3 prior to the occurrence of TMI 2, that such information 9 C to could hve been heloful in creventinc or mitigatine the TMI 2 transient of March of this year? tt MR. CHCPKO; Objection 'Inlass vou are villina to 13 confine yottr question to the four corners of the exhibi t. 13 i are vou villine to stimul=te 'ha* you ara only 14 concerned wi th the four corners o# the exhibi t? 15, MR. FEL7MAM: Lat the wi tnass con #ina his an?we". Io-TWE W'TN7SS: Based on what is in the four corners, t. i .a I I would sav it would have been interes:inc and cossibiv 1 1, useful. 9; l BY MR. HELFMAM: .,9 ., t ; O In preventing the transien at CMI 2 cf March Of i i this year? Interesting, certainly; useful, certainly. I A -" ' we are trying :: a::ach a le: of sign fi:ance! .s.a to cne er two ::her incidents tha: really wculd have, nign: I have crevented TM: and think that in each incident tha: .,3 i

l Acme Reporting Commony

l 89 1 ene examines, one sees special things about that incident 3 at that c.lant at that time that make it a special case, and 3 that are recognized as such, and that that special case usually means, usually leads to it being considered with 4 other special cases, but net immediatelv translated into 5 6 direction to all plants or to all similar plants or to all .clants havinS any. one of the characteristics of that incident a plant, so I think in reality very few individual incidents 9 immediately get translated into directions to change somethine to that will affect or prevent something at Three Mile Island, se en that generali::ation, there are many, many incidents ti over the historv. of reactor licensine. that micht have i. 13 centributed, that being one of them, wha: you see in chose 14 four cerners being one'ef them,~and in that centext, it wetid to. be very useful. 16 It is very difficult to say that this inciden: a .-=c..ad '".e.a .i. a- '" a '...3 3.. A'.#..d. a.n *.. 1, ~eC g 4.... C u, u. m. _ u.e 2, 4.1 eA e c -e. a _e ..a a-v... w. s w . wa s g3 i i. .~.c_4,',=.".~. o.# .M.a.~. ". v' # ~..'~._'a~ 9 .' ~..eo _. a.*. ~. _4.'. g.

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O e s 82 directly en the type of PORV failure that occurred at TMI 2 in March of this year? 3 A Both incidents involved failure of the PORV. I 4 can't get much from this or from what I know about TMI to 5 say just how similar the two failures of POKv's were. 6 Q All right. Are you aware of why Westinghouse did ~ not report this matter until after TMI 2, and I am 3 referring again to the incident described in Exhibit No. 3? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know if Westinghouse was obligated to report 11 such overseas transients to the NFC in timely fashion? 12 A No, because I haven't :ade the judg=ent that I would 13 have to make, and Westinghouse would have to make in accordance 14 with the requirements before they would find it necessary 15 to repers, 16 Q There is a reporting requirement, hcwever, regarding 17 overseas transients? i IS A There is a reporting requiremen if Westi,nghouse i A4. u f. 19 knows about a plant in the United States that has a similarp --~ r ' ~ 20 f Westinghcuse knows of a safety problem that exists in a i 2 ! plant for which it has a respensibility as defined in Par: l V Yw 21,$estinghouse is within the limitations,fe they are 22 ' h l required :: report than deficiency cr that safety proble: 3 3. c NRC. 23 0 Let's go through sc=e of the enhibits which have t I A me Recortine Comecnv 1

33 1 not vet been marked and which vou have previded. We have here a document entitled "A5. cation for 9 3 License to Ixport Nuclear Material and Iquipment," 4 accompanted by a copy of Part 110 of Title 10, Chapter 1 of 5 the Code of Federal Regulations, and we would like to have 6 these two documents marked together as the next exhibit I to the deposition. 8 (LaFleur Exhibits Nos. 9&l0 were 9 marked for identification.) 'O BY MR. EILFMA T: 11 Q With respect to Exhibit No. 10 which has just 1" been marked, is the information that is requested in the 13 application described or is it required bv. Par: 110, is Part 110 basically inst::uctions to filling out this 15 application? What is the relationship between these two 16 dccuments? I s-ct:m A The requirement;for submission of AM' applications /l t *~ ~ are civen in Part 110. The form fer su' mitting an export r r 19! acclication is the other item. Part 110 sav.s that an I .9 I i import application is done without a form, but in a i )) 'e..e_. 4., Q Then show you an Executive Order dated January .w 5th, 1979, which consists of five pages followed by a dccu l 4 -'4 ment entitled ' White Ecuse Fact Shee:" =cnsisting of 3 cacez l a.5 followed by a dccument entitled " News Release" dated Januar/ i Acme Reportine Company

I i .c 84 1 l 1 3, 1979-2 A Wait a minute. Wait a ninute. I think that's the 3 Wrong one. (A discussion was held off the record.) 4 MR. HELFMAN: Let me show this to you and perhaps 6 you can determine whether this is the document we have re9uested from vou. 8 THE WITNESS: As I recall, we were discussing the 9 Executive Order dealing with the envircnmental effects to abroad of major federal actions, and indeed this is the 11 correct one. i.o l MR. HILFMAN: As I was saving, foligwed bv. a l news release consisting of one page dated January 5,

1979, 14 fellcwed by a document entitled " Executive Order for l

15 Environmental Effects Abroad of Major Federal Actions 16 l Premulgated by the Executive Office of the President, Council en Envircamental Quality! " consistine of five rac.es, felicwed -l s l I byadocumententitled"CuestionsandAnswersenInternaicnalj 13 tg ; Environnental Executive Order" censisting of five pages, j I a.gl the first beine. unnumbered, folicwed by a le :er sic.ned bv. 21 ; John Hein: and Adlai Stevensen from the ~;dned States Senate 9,3 consisting accressed :o the Pres:..ent datec ecember

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c a 4 a.3 :, cf two pag _es, I would like to have this marked as the nex: 2; i exhibit in order. 25 1 l 'l Acme Reporting Compcny

85 (LaFleur Exhibit No. 11 was 3 marked for identifica ion. ) MR. HELFMAN: 2. Chopko, could.vou c. lease 3 describe for the record tnese two packages of documents which vill be ma..su aogether as the next exhibit in order. 5 MR. CHOPKO: I probably could, realizing of course that I am r.'t under oath. As .anded to me by you, Mr. Helfman, I recognize 3 these documents as Xerox copies evidently reflecting scme g information that occurred in West Germany and was discussed g during the course of this deposition. I will sti=ulate that it is Exhibit 12. to. MR. HELFMAN: Mr. LaFleur, these two cackaces of 13 i documents refer to the Brunsbuttel Nuclear Power Plant 14 disturbance of June 18th, 1973, and the transient at the Gundri==ingen reactor of January lat, 1977. Would you please look these over and see if both-I and Mr. Chopko have given an accurate description of these to,. documents for the rec 0rd? 19 i I i (A discussion was held off the record.) i 20 ;4 MR. HELFMAN: Back on the record. 3,

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86 i MR. HELFMAN: Let's have these marked together as 2 ~xh < o< t u e 3 (LaFleur Exhibit No. 12 was 4 marked for identification.) 5 MR. HELFMAN: We have also been provided by you A 6 with a document entitled " Enclosure List" dated January 25, I ~ 1978 signed by you. Let me show you this document and ask 3 you what that is. 9 THE WITNESS: The answer to the question is it 10 is an enclosure list of those enclosures to the transmittal 11 that we made to foreign addressees on our mailing list en 12 January 5, 1978. 13 BY MR. HELFMAN: 14 Q And these would he the addressees who did no: 15 receive the telegraphic communica:icn cniv? These are the is i enclosures with the mail co=munication? r U A "4.a.'. _d. ' '... 15 ' O Now under Part 3, special reports, it indicates j 4 1 19l that current event., pcwer reactors 1 September through l l ? 20 ' llCctober 1977 was an enclosure. Would it he reascnable to I i 1 i 21, assume that if a transient were described in curren: 22, events, tha: -hat description wculd have been transmit:Ed 23 to the addrassee en the mailing list? a scr that pericdr

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1 87 i addressed earlier of Septectber 24th, 1977, are you aware 2 of whether that transient was described in current events in 3 this edition of current events as described in the 4 enclosure list? 5 A On the basis of what the eerson who makes the mailing 6 list was able to determine by calling back to the source of the current events report to NRC, the answer is yes. 3 MR. HELFMAN: We would like to have this doc =ent 9 marked as Exhibit 13 to the deposition. 10 (LaFleur Exhibit No. 13 was 1,. marked for identification.) i.o. BY MR. HELFMAN: 13 0 Are you aware of a dec=ent which has becc=e kncwn as the Michelson memorandum? 3 A No. to i l i 16 Q Are you aware of a document that has beccme known as the Novak memorandum? o I i A

have heard of the Novak memorand=, but am no:

.u. i t i aware of what. is in that dec=ent. i 9 l . i O You haven't seen i ? I .,0 t i l A No. 3 \\ 2 0 Are ycu aware of a dec=ent kncwn as the Creswell ecorandum? .a i A Nc. 34 d .u. o Are veu aware of whether any of the three dec=ents 9 Acme Recorting Comoany

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88 that I have referred to have been distributed by your office to overseas governcents, operators, embassies? A I am not aware. 3 Q If such item had been distributed, is it likely 4 that you would have been aware of it? 5 A Not very likely. Q Who in your office would be aware of such a transmittals? S A Bud Levine, William Levine, to whom we have been g talking and who has furnished these, Exhibit 13. MR. HELFMAN: Off the record. 11 (A discussion was held off the record.) 12 SY MR. EZLFMAN: 13 Q Mr. LaFleur, you have handed me a packet of materials. Could v.ou please describe for the record what a this is? 16 p,;\\ This is a cackace of informacien succlied.co, / A + ~ ~~ t-r-~- under a Freedom of Information Recuest on the incident.iin ,4 Germanv 1: Gundrimmingen and Wurgassen. Q Is that the second of those two transients that i 20, i you referred to. cut :...:.c not reca,

ne name c:. :ne :ac:..,. :y?

21 i i A ' ~o. That was 3runsbuttel. i .w__, MR. HE FMAN: Let's have this marked :.n order, ,.a s which would be I:6.ibi: 14. _,. i, I .'s' 1 j Acme Reoortina Compony [ i

i .t / 89 1 (LaFleur Exhibit No. 14 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 MR. HELFMAN: That concludes the questions that we 4 have today. Mr. Chopko, did you have any questions for 5 the witness? 6 MR. CHOPKO: No. ~ / 7 MR. HELFMAN: On that not, we will recess the 3 deposition, as I indicated earlier. If we have need to 9 ask you further questions, we will reconvene the deposition, 10 but for today, that's it. 11 Thank you very much. 12 (Whereupon, at 2:30 p.m., the deposition of 13 Mr. LaFleur was recessed.) 14 15 16 17 ts ! i 19 ' i 20 ! i 1 21 1 I 20 ' 23 ' 5 I 24 il y,, Acme Reporting Compcny

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0 CERTIFICATE I certify that I have read this transcript and corrected any errors in the transcription that I have been able to identify, except fer unimportant punctuation errors. f R. Date: [ *lN 1, N w h' / / Joseph D. Lafleur, Jrl 1}}