ML19329D264
| ML19329D264 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse, Perry  |
| Issue date: | 04/21/1976 |
| From: | Bingham W, Rigler D CLEVELAND ELECTRIC ILLUMINATING CO., Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8002260868 | |
| Download: ML19329D264 (196) | |
Text
.
8232 bwG the Menongahela Power System serving largely in iTest j
l 2
Virginia and the Potomac Edison Ccapany carving largely l
in Maryland.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER: Uculd ycu ha $12 to chcr us en thM 4
e i
i i
largar map the approximata location 'of uhe CaI pec.p j
i 1
storaga genarating plant?
f
,s TIIE WITNESS :
'les. Tha western and of cho
)
1 line from that plant in at our Ashtabula. O tatien,
Tho o
pump storaga plant is just south cf the ncrdarn I
border of Pennsylvania very near Warren, Pennsylvania.
3
,o s
BY MR. BUCIU4 ANN:
j G
Would vou mark it in rod and mark ne::t to it l
f2
" Seneca," which is the nare of the plant?
Physically.
l A.
I might add that tha plant is shcin on tha
,4 i
i map and named.
I have circled it in red.
CHAIRIIAN RIGLER:
Is that plant 16
~
connectud to tho-6 CEI system by a CEI-owned transmisaica line?
THE WITNESS:
Not all the way.
CHAIRMAN RIGLE2:
How do you get power to the f
I Seneca Plant from the C2I service arec?
j 20 A
The transmicsion voltage fr m 1:he Saneca plant 21 in 230 kv.
The step-up at the powar pl'_at is uhatevar 22 the generating voltage is to 230 hv with a very chcrt
{
23 line connecting into a Pennsylvania.Electr2.c Ccnptny l
substation known as Glade.
25 t
2
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9
.e. lj Ccepany, is stoo ed un 50 3 G, 0 0 0 ta '. 3, 7.d. Or tha e.
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f this power?
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G330 bn ch 1 1l S'1 MR. ECCHIG.ll'?:
I a
9 Whi13 era are on che uriject of th-a San.'.c2 pler.t.-
l 49 e., [
when pover is gencented at Ecacca, ic it 'four Sce:SiTc:ny S.ut s
<v it flotts --
that poucr flo'in along the rotta roa.:.ru jnsu s
~
~
dascribad?
3 a.
1To.
(
i
,i
/9 l
Q.
Ucu doca tha pmier flow?
3l 2.
17aatovor gon0 ntica at Sennes. is for JC toccunt 9
is put on tho transnicsion cyctoa at the Glado cubet.sticn.
t 10 1
This station has 230 hv lines rt:2nk1g in tro dircoticac fre" i
I.
As soon as that poscr hits the Ginela W.batntion, \\
11 \\
the station.
,i n.~
you hava loch the ability to dictinguich beta cn it and nny
'3 other.
It is juct on the netstork.
l 1'4 It vill flow over r. cay rany lince.
It uil..
probably affect linen to perhapc un insignificcnt degnsa ia j
15
~6 come places on this uhole m p.
i
,l MR. L2SGY:
Mr. Luclunnn invitcd na to invr:rrph l
IO f.. if thero was a clarifying point.
I' IO 1.~ hose trancnissicn cycten is it put cnto nu the 3
'O substation?
- 1 THE WTITI2SS:
Penncylvcnia Electric Ccz.pr-.y.
I
'm refor to then as Penn Electric, alno.
U L EY MR. BUCEFP2m :
M Q.
Mr. Binghan, let's ascuns a sitt.'.tien uhoro thero M
are no other transset'ionc being carried on by CEI encapt for 4
1 1
n>~a
%.,.6 -
I 1
ch 2 tha fact it will ucc the Seneca generation.
I' e
I
,u Hoe big in Sanoca, in tha first placc?
j se
.4 CSI cntiticncat in Sanaan ic 304 TOgr7attc.
j 4
Q.
If you ucnt to take the uhole 100 nasciatec at 5
l coma point in tino, uharc would you enpact th-c. ::o chau up 4
3 1
on your interconncctienc?
7 A.
It trill chow up on all of th?;t.
Of Icn E'o fron 8
caro generation at Senaca to 300 cnd CEI inpOrh0 304, it g
will i asult in changcc in fict:s on overy lina ccuing into C.2I. '
10 IG. SIC 23:
Is the rovcrso trua al:;o.- ifa. ycn t
I,*
usa pottar to pulcp tho water up?
12 THE WITNESS:
The ficys vill shou up cn n11 linas i
i 13 and, as a matter of fact, if, for enamplo.- wa purch.s:e that power rather thar. generating it curselvoc -- and f qc.cntl.r i
wa do
- as you know, tha pumping is donc during ths off-sc.:: !
15 I6 hours.
This happens to be a tirca of day when n;.ny e:1 cuv f
II neighbors have low-coct econcrcic energy avnilabic.
ii 18 Frequently, we will bu" it, and tha :.:crar teill De t
19 generated naybe in southeastern Ohio end vill flow c Jar : htt~
1 ever routes there arc from tharo to SonGea to sc': narc or l
20
- t the pumping.
e
->9 BY MR. BUC220.2iN:
U G
Including cvor linos of ;nrtice onhar..htn CSI 1
24 and Penn Electric?
25 A
That is right.
i 1
f
.I
/
3236 ch 3 t.!
9 Now, with respect to Erhibit 112, I thiah you ccid 1
t before you scould have-to consider tier: porer 210v3 in 4
3l 1
i designing your cun cysten or handling ycur own inta. cannectionr.
4!
Can you tall 23 vhy?
Nhat sort of thing do y n hava to censiddr 5
outside your system?
6 MR. L2SSY:
I obiect.
I think that ::he feat that. 5 CEI, which is uhat Mr. Singhan ic b m411ar uith, 10 a =cabar 8
of ECAR, he can explain location of syste::13.
I thi9. We 9
are going to get now into an c:;pleantien of hou ECT.R oporstcc, 10,
i the rsliability council, and I think that ip bayona the 11
/
ocepe of his tastinony.
12 I hate to cpen) up the door for all c2 ECER junt 13 because CEI is a Ice".ther.
14 MR. BUCICEiN:
I hava no intention of openine-up 15 ths door.
The only cason EC!tR uac mentioned inc M eet2a i
tm ara using an ECAR 15ap.
I vill not touch CCAn.
17 CHAIPliMi RIGLER:
What una your questicn?
10 MR. BUCHMAUN:
I asked uhat sort of things en 19 systems othar than CSI does he hava to cencidar 114 handling 20 his own intarconnectica arrangemants and trancciccica aycts.a.
CTdRMD.N RIGL2R:
I will permit that.
22 THE WIT 113SS:
As a gonoral rule, nest peoplo 23 operate on the prcnice that if you hava provided an cicctri-cally adequata pass betvacn the pointe uhere you vant to 25 carry out a transaction, you have done your part, wi--h ecce V
l
.t 3237 ch 4
.s
+
a sossible exceptiens or codifications.
1
,u Yaat I cra trying to crf 10 this:
22 022 3
either ernc or helga pay for a pa n bein:cen A;;ut'mic. cad the Seneca plant that ic adoquate to carry 304 maga;atuc, f
5 they have dono their part.
Thc 304 may $1cw 22y eld plcuu l
I 6
it wants to, but tro have coraitted our c;m c:9it:1 cnd 7
are incurring expensco cer:2cn macto with tha circ traanacticn f 8
we are trying to nahe between the scintc I.T: cro tryicy.J to t
9 i
naka it.
We can't control the actual 510r.
i 10 CHAIR!G.N RIC-LER:
You hr.T:n't cc"22ittcS cny ccpf.tal.
i 11 to the Penn Elcctric cyc;:cm for the concnrc.cbien or maintom.ane:i.
12 1
of their lines?
13 THE UITNESS:
No, but uo havo contributad capit:1 I
14
. for the portion of the line frca Achtabu1=. to tho Paonsylv.20..
15 lina, which we o-an.
16 I!R. LESSY:
Could the rcportar rcad bach tha c:nscti::'
17 frem Mr. Suchacun and the Uitnc3s' ancuar, pleunc?
I 18 i
(The reporter read the record ac ::quactod..)
i 10 MR. LESSY:
I don't think the ane. var is rcs.ccanive.l 1
20 I move to atrike "As a cencral rule, noct occola cparcto cr.
s i,
t e
't the pramise" and that contenco.
2nd then ha cays, 'IS CE,"
22.
I move to strike "As a gcnarci rulo n3t pacpla m
operate on the promise."
Ec vacn't ached as a gsnars.1 rul:2 c
24 what happens.
t
'.S ER. SUC miA!nI:
Tho uitncas hcan't finiched hic
.I a
9
i e222 et 3 t=
Tha witness is hara to_ testify as to things he kncwc l
answnr.
.o t
'of his own.kncteledga.
If he :me/.<c the general nf.c r.r custon in his bucinanc, h2 in entiticd, I thinh, ho tactidi a
4 to it.
<-O e
CHAZRLNi RIGLT2:
I holisva that uhan ho 0:anifiec 6-as to a general, industry-wids - ule, ha is in escor.ca tar.ti-7 fying in an t: Port c19 city, and it would ha in violatica og a
the pro-filed testimony rule, ao h.c notienfto curike the s
r.d 21 fir.st acaucnce of tho ansuer vil". ha cdrant-9..
10 11 l
t i
12 g =o a
i 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 I
k.
I l
l I
l l
.I 4
3
+
2239 f
I.
S22 hwl MR. CIIAFliC :
Mr. C1cirman, this is not t.o 2
first occasion en which the Witness haa no tcatif.25, and 8
e 2
that is.tha reason for the Dipcirt:Ont's continuing c3jactic.1, 4
He has 'on numerous occacienc mixad hic q narni endarstanding i
5 of indC.Jtry practice.
For oncnplc, at une cil.ts'.:t o E
~
S his testimony he referred tc - his 2:cac: ' ords tcre i
4 7
typically in
.ratd' design and specifically in the casa i
e 8
of CEI.
9 CHAIRMAN RIGLER: Thac is why I 11nritsd you to naka i
10 speci,ic en]ecticns.
- u listenec, care l,y arc 2.5 ceema y
11 the bulk of his testimony is concentrcued en tM cpc-rcticn i
12 of the CEI system.
i t
13 Mr. Bingham has applied his knowledgo, his i
14 description of tha facts to tlw cporations of Cre, and that is is why I'm
' sustaining Mr. Lascy'e objectien,..cacauce ha i
16 addressed a particular occasien whera che Witnesa 17 exceeded the scope of, ict's say, fact tcs' ironi. ralatin3 tu f-c I
ta CEI and went into sc:aething that might he called generE3 i
19 expert tastimcny.
I believe at the outact I cautioned you i
20 to object specifically en each occasion when you fel a 23 witness is exceeding the scope of factual testiscny.
22 MR. BUCHWlm:
Eefera I go on, Mr. Singhsm, in 4
- x 23 response to a questien from the Chair:aan, ycu n.nid CEI in ita i
)
i 24 interconnection with PENEI,EC built and paid for its acrtion I
i 23.
of the line; correct?
i l
f 4
i t
i L240 bw2 1
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
The porticn in Ch:'.o 9:.c t
1 9
built by and is osncd bu 7.nd wcc acid for b.7 Cr;.
l
.a, BY MR. ECCHIUGE!:
4 9
Does CEI compon : ta PE'!ELEC for 4"y way fc:-:
5 PENELEC's capital investment'cn its portf.cn?
6 A.
CEI pays PENELEC 1'fhecling charge to p'. t'u
[
7 power from Senecc to Eria?
j 1
8 G
Going back, you have scid, cr m:yda you lidn' t 9
so ir.4 6. < s a
. set, you nuid somethinc; e6 cub C.ciag your a
10 part.
You felt ycu had dons your cart,. If ecu hac built facilities which carried the trauaction. Do you l
g; l
remember that?
12 i
Yes.
13 g
G Does the Illuminating Company, in facu, prc.cM.ec 1
that, that it tries to do its part in thsc.e cransaction.-"
15 3.
We try to.
16 g
G Do you do that, baccuse you baliava Sc? Se h:.
,?..e
- 7 general rula in the industrv.
10
-i MR. LESSY:
Objection. Again, we ar: pcB.inc jg into genernl industr*v rules.
Ha can tacti;.:y ulc c.C 20 dcas it.
In addition, it is a leading quent..an.
1 MR. BUCmGJm:
It is a questien of his belief.
22
~
Why does CEI do that?
23 t
MR. LESSY:
Why CEI doca i
- 8. hat is the 4
24 i
i l
proper question.
1 i
I 1
e I
8211 l
t CHAIRMrsN RIGLER:
I2r. going to p :rait it.
It seems to me that his balief as to wiwther i.: it-3 go. ural t
industry rule acesn c necessarily 99.0 it so,.:n
.m r7 i
4 testify as to whether ha believes it 'o b2 e gcnaral '.ndu_:try c
5 I
- rule, l
D MR. BUCHMANN:
Yes.
Could you enwar ;Iic 7
question?
j O
TIC WITNESS :
The answer ir no.
l t
9 MR. S UCHMAN : :
I beg your parden?
10 TI!2 WITNESS:
The answer is no.
[
l
'1 BY MR, BUCliMNIN:
i 12 i
G Why don't you do it?
i.
I3 A.
I didn't say we didn't do it.
1.!ayle I better l "'
~
have the question, l
15 (The r2 perter recd the pending quartion.)
3, i
10 THE WIT 11ESS: The nanswer is no.
17 BY MR. BUCHMANN:
t IG Q
Uould you explain?
19 A.
NEll, perhaps, as an e::ampla I c.:r.
f 20 l
use the one that we have talked about quita a cit.- en tac i
21 preceding exhibit the watturlJ 138 kv lin i of Ohio Miucn 22 running frora Lorain to Johnaon.
As I int.icated on severa) 1 23 occasion and this is true today this interconnecticn is 24 imposing a limitation on CEI export capability.
Loads ve_f t
25 generally incrensed in this entire crea such that if tha i
l s
l
- -. - - - - ~
T32 42 bw4 l
Avon-Beater 345 is out of service, tha lead gc03 Nut en l
I this westerly 132 is approaching tha ther el 1:s:aitatic:L Again, for the came r-e. sons cad nc1r.: i.1 cn
,a two circuits.
It ic anor0 aching the 50 msg:J.tett
,g 4
limitation combined on the two lines.
R *aarnc
.J ra try to 5
export with the Avon-Beaver line cut cf carvicc 10 till e
si 1
i exceed the thermal limitations and da:rnga ' ths lina, 7
t This isn't a burden just to CEI or j'?st to Ohio i
- Edison, There is a burden to the entire intarcanasetac r
9 i
o system.
10 G
How?
11 I
A.
In that everyonec' trsacacticn uil'. changa --
12 MR. HJEIJTELT:
I objection.
It seams ncia j
13 t
he is getting beyond discussing the CEI and its trr.nsactions.
14
~
He is getting into a ' dis'cussion oc the general inductry i
15 agas.n.
f 16 CHAIRfWi RIGLER:
I see your point, Mr. Ujalnfelt, i
17 but I don't think so in this case.
He is telhing & cut 10 how CEI, as I understood his answer r.Ilatus to-S e a stins 19 with which it specifically
.is interconnected - I think.
20 Is tha': correct or not?
I 21 i
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
22 i
5 BY MR. BUCH2GlW:
.i
~
23 I
G G3 on, l
l
[
i I
i i
I
l y, a..,
t
)
bw5 i
A.
If Pennsylvania Electric Ccmpanv off hora in taa i
1 2
a::trsma north upper rignt-hand corner of the c.tp war tc 3
try.to deliver emergency pcwer to say Toledo. m. c:- he:I.:
j, abaout 18 inches to the right --
5 CN*#"" "O#~
"** Ub*
- t because I said everyone.
The clarity ic by e /Orycc.c. you cc:cen C
6 specific interconnection p. rtners of CEI if thac io ; hat ye 2 i
l maan.
g THE WITNESS:
Or even pec':le adjacer.t te ther:.
g ii l-Any dy in thic area up here, j
10 MR. BUCHMA:n;:
Doccribe whoro you are ocintin T.
11
~
i Use the other map.
2 CHA~RMAN RIGLER:
Fcr the rccord let Ica state the Witness was previously referring to E::hibit 111 cr.d now la referring again to E::hibit 112.
MR. BUCHMAtRI:
E:: plain what you arc ;;1kiar: shou 5 onthis subject, THE WITNESS:
If the courco of the.amargenev 18
^
6 power were, say, the Uew York Power Pcol, basically g
so:cawhere in the State of Rau Yor%1 and the deficience 20 area was another :tscoer of ECAR or even Chic Ediscu
~
- Company in Lorain, the increased ficw of ptrer 'frec Shie area to the west as we hava talked about earlier will divide 23 up.
1 24 Some of it vill go up thers
.e.n td 2 and cena dew.
25-i
3244 bw6 i
1 thera, Michigan, and bac't into tho Ohio Edicen system.
j 2
Some of it will go thrcuch tha CII sy 3tm.
3 Noc vill try, but will go through the OEI systaTI ad 'till t
4 try to go cut of the CEI system in pcrt on th2 Lorain-.
I g
Johnson line which is virtually at its uharmcl limitation.
[
i 6
If the transcar is too big, va either have to open 4
l 7
up the intarconnection or it will burn down, l
a BY MR., EUCHiW BI:
,i 9
0 What dces opening it up mecn and tihat effact to does that hava on the operation of the syste.?
,I i
11 A.
It means opening the switchas, de-ancrgining 3
i 12 the lines.
It means no flows over them, i
i 13 I can't tell you the impact it vould have i
34 cn otner systems.
It does decrease the capability of tha i
uncle network, 1 a-i 13 liow, getting back to the quastien you asked.
~
r W
CHAIRMAN RIGLER: I want to do that, 17 fB M.
CHAANN:
Could you tell me ',that it is?
f 19 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
The original gliecti n
.c which t
20 the Witness answered no, relating to industry practicc.
i 21 but what was the industry practice we were cencicaring?
i I
22 MR. BUCHMANN:
ifnat was the indus try practica?
i l
CHAIRM7.N RIGLER:
That is what I want I
.,3 re-established.
,,j l
THE WITNESS:
I'm respcndini to why it la not mv 25 i
i 1i
r-t 8245 !
bw7 I
i belief.
1 l
i 1
C'JAIIWAN itIGLER:
Phat is nrrecc, be: I, cant ic find out uhat it basis of that qusation ucs.
. n.
5 MR. BUCHIORT:
Thz practic0 was ~; hat a v.h pc.rt vou.i d do its own part en the interconnectienc and buil.1 na ul.ctrical e
~
path sufficiant to handle that trance.ction, sven though the cmorgency doas not actually 21cu that way.
7 i
Do I paraphrase your tachimcny co.:ractly?
3 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
l 9
I thctght I was responding to the quccticr. --
10 MR. BUCHICJIN:
Uhy dees 02: do that?
11 I
THE WITNESS:
Do wa do that bacmtse it is cur 12 4
belief that othera do it, I
i 13 My answer is no, we don't do it because i: ic
~
14 our belief,,
i 15 tie furnish that path.
It is the mathed we use.
i 10 As far as I know, the pecple I deal with in ccccrae:
17 negotiations do it that uay.Some timac ? e go ocytu-it.
10 Taht is a sort of a ficor as to what you do.
19 BY MR. DUCHMAtRi:
20 G
Why do you go beyond it?
?
21 Ts Well, this is the situation I'm tal%ing about 22 on this I,orain-Johnson line.
It boccmec a oc:: cpct in the f
23 entica transaction network.
It is a ve k spot --
24 t
a 25 t
l 1
i
8246 b.; 3 I
l CHAIPJ'f.N RIGLER:
?Tnah aro you describing as the l
.i entira transmission network in that answer?
I i
i
-3
~
A It could go ao far as virtually c.nythina c:;
i 1
4
- t..ais map,,
i i
0 Q.
Which is 1127 b-1 A.
Which la Enhibit 112, but typically ;tauld be in areas cicser to Cleveland then the ccafines of the mao, 7
O but not necessarily.
i.
9 BY HR. BUCHMAUN:
i 10 G
By the way, in the enranplc you used for l
11 describing the westerly line you caid if the Avan-Eur.mw i
II line were out of service, you would hem: a litiitaticn on I
1 i
13 that line; is that correct, on the tiesterly line?
14 A
If the Avon-Boaver line is cat of car-rice the 15 flow under today's load conditions with nero eransfer i
i 16 scheduled -- I shouldn' t say ::ero transfer, CEI would bu i
17 importing the Seneca generation, but other than ths.t 18 zero transfer, in effect, in CEI, the load oa the t'.co Lorain-19 Johnson circuits is approaching the thermal limitution 8
20 and in operating the CEI systam you have to anon = that 21 under -- that the occasion will come when tha Avon-Beaver 22 line trips off.
23 0
Why?
24 A
Lightning.
Sooner or later it has to.
25 There is no such thing as certainty.
i
4 3247 br9 1
G What impact dcas that have on the planning i
2 of your system the fact that the lina vill t.';ip onz?
3 A.
The remainirg lines havo te he c:pabic st i
4 sustaining cr carrfing on the trancacticac you ara.ucnt i
5 to be carrying cn.
t G
G A minuta or two ago you gave us anc::a.ple cd the 1
7 limitation. which that westerly line night impcsc cn a S
transaction between Mew York and Toledo or Michipm.
o Have you, in fact, had tranc.actienc that go in the j
t to,
other diraation, fron went to cast?
I 11 A
Yes.
12 G
On which your system would have an impact?
ii 13 A
YGC-i 14 G
Give me an enangle?
15 A
Fe have transacticns that ficar thrcugh our 16 sy., tem, in general, I don't believe there are ur; ccrrent 17 elements in our system that would impose nev-res or perncsa 10 moderate limitations on the magnituda of transceticns, i
19 The probles show up in funny placer.
{
1 20 For example, at one point in time I thinL l
e
[
21 1974, some time in '74, a major element in the cast to wast f
l 22 transmission cf emergency power uns chio Edison'c Banver l
1 substation.
It was the 345 to 130 kV transfc=or that vac j
23 24 the limiting factor in the antire interconnected syctam c.5 for transfer, I believe frem tha New York Power Ecol to the
l I
l i
3248 I
i bwl0 I
southwest corner of ECAR or it may have been nome othar
\\
2
}
place.
3 MR, SMITH:
Are you saying than that you provide -~
4 you do your part as you say to protect the intagrity of s
S our own system and that has the same effect as doing your 6
part in relaticn to the enrire networi:?
t 7
THE WITNESS: That is right, and uhat I was 6
trying to say was that dcing your part vill occasionally 9
require you to do scmething more than build a line capablo 10 of 304 megawatts from Ashtabula to Seneca, It may inpose 11 on you a burden to cure a situation that perhaps you didn't
)
i 12 cause or perhaps dcesn't limit transacticns that are l
l I
13 beneficial to CEI, but limit transactions that tre beneficial 4
i 14 to other parties.
15 MR. SMITH:
But you do it to protect your own i
I 16 system.
i 17 THE WITNESS:
We do it -- well the Lorain-Johnacn 18 lines I was talking about, essentially, as far ac I knce.t never,
i 8
10 have flow in.
They always have ficw out.
If the tus linea t
I i
I 20 burn down, I wound' t say it doesn' t create a burden en CEI, l
21 but it creates a much heavier burden on the guy at the other l
i 1
22 end of the line who is at the normal receiving end.
- Ucwever, 23 there are other lines uhere we are on the nornal racsiving l
24 cnd.
So we do our partin making sure that this linc icn't l
25 a weak spot in the whole network. We have two steps underway l
i i
I l
1 l
8249
.6 i
to alleviate that problem. We hope that other cacple, whercever; bwll i
2{
they may be, who havo ia 2 spotz which impos: limitz.tionc 3
on the overall system are corracting tbce2 tec.
l 4
othentise, the system won' t work.
I.5 tre i
~
3 don't correct the ucck s? ohs ne Ero raspcasihlo for, we have 6
no right to demand that other pocnic correct the ones I
7 that they make.
i, CHAIM W1 RIGL3R:
Referring to your ucstern 8
line whereyou have the problem, tehere the line is operating O
6 at capacity, Scn' t you have to solve dat problem in j
10 i
coordination with the party ct the other end of the line?
93 THE HITNESS:
Not.necessarily.
12 THE CHAIR'OI:
Vaat good would it do you to 13 beef up your end or add another circuit or add additional 34 transmission. capacity, if nothing happenad at the Chic 15 Edison end of the line?
16 L
THE WITNESS':
There are two things ue tre going 17 i
t to do.
One of them definitely involves Chio 2dicen 18 directly.
Now, I'm back on Exhibit 111.
It will be 39 pu n a second 3.'25 kv cired h.5vm to Leavr 20 i
- Beaver, The --
2t CHAIMW1 RIGLER: Who owna 5 saver?
.i 22 t
e THE WITNESS:
Ohic Edison. This is the example g
that I'm citing that involves them.
That would solve this 24 problem.
CEI also has undarway additienal plants withit.;
<.5 1
l.
iI r
I 5
8250 i
bw12 t
i.
its own system, which will be, a 215 kv circuit frcm. won 9
~
to Juniper, which is where the Ohio Pcuer and che Chic 3
Edison 345 linee come in from the south.
4 I
What that will do is that it will taka a maicr 5
portion of the Avon generation which nov either gats put on the 138 hv system at Avon or was flowing ou ca i
7 this 345 lina to Beavcer, it will take a major portica 8
.of that generatien over and insert it into tha cystem in I
s e
Pleasant Valley -- I'm 3c cf, Juniper, It will reculi:
t 10 in a reduction of the ficv out on the Lorain-Jchnson lirzu f
11 to the west. There are occaciens --
l i
12 CHAIRMAN RIGL22:
iihere dces Chio Edicca 13 compensate for that loss?
a 14 i
15 16 ES22 17 10 19 20 21
?
22 l
1 23 t
t i
1 4
1 25 i
r I
i
1 A
I 0251 i
ch 1 TE3!C'EESS:
It 11111 changa the ficta in thei" 23 2
cystem.
" ra..rmw.,.'.T FFm".'.c'. -
"D "..; m*. -..'.2'.'.-
4_%'...'..'.~..~'.'.m'.F.
v=
.4
^
~
4 THE W.TESO:
20.
5 CEIPE.U RIGLSR:
Sh:2 crs a not i:Corbar over tha 6
westors link?
7 TE WITZESS:
~20 s.
l t
s G
CHAIPird! RICLER:
It 'dll cnt Ema the enxnt cf 1
availabic flow over f'-n vectcam
'3.
Ecv id.11 thay com?cacatd 9
to fer the locc7 i,
ti TE WITNESS:
It ron't cut dcun the tvuiluhlc.
It 12 will reduce what fo.rcrly florna becanso of tha electrical i
13 characteristics, and it means the ficv.'in the rest of thei" 1
~
15 system will have to change to ec7?cnnato for it.
'Icu h a n I
15 to toll the cecola efas.t vot arc doing.
CHAIRFAIT RIGLERe They have to mata niin %
1,0 TES W.TH25S:
They have to ha m.ers of.:hc.t tee ru;a g7 doing.
3g C19.IR'?Ji PZGL23:
Onc0 of t% 14':30 dr.t night.ka 79 t
gg asked to carry nore load night be operating at capacin'.2a l
so they ' dght havo to hast up sc:'a of their cun linen?
~1 TE 172T2:2SS:
It n:c'r bo.
Ths annuor to *rour 22
.(
original quection in yes, you hava to check trith svarybody.
23 CHAIRIGN RIGLER:
It ird COr0 thin judt chcChing.
24 25 Yo E construction of the 345 lica down from A ca to the
3252 ch 2 1
3envar station, that involves phycic:1 pica'.ing and hardiraro et lactaillation on the part of Chic Idiaen.
3 THE WITIESS:
Dy chschi 3, I 233.2 2 lor. Scycn6. juct '
/
4 tal!.ing tham, here in what vc bnve in mit.C.
The egil: arc a
hava to sit deten and study it.
?:rheys thic 4.: a gecd e:nspic.
G In ena caco, one of tho thingc va.vi".1 do will 7
require definite work on the part of Chio 3dir.cn.
3
'or inctcllatic &
CILMSIDJi RIGIC2:
J 9
THE} WISICSS :
To do the s90cua ken-Dec.vor.
h 10 second cna may reanire no contribution at all cI: a cir perb, unlena it creates a problan some ctier place, It 022 Iw 12 dono probably entirely within the CEI synt0n.
I I
m
~
(
MR. BUOF2WRi You maan the conct:=ctior.?
14 THE WITHESS:
The encenditurO.
I i
15 i
BY NR. EUCm m !:
16 Avon-Juniper ic.catirely a CEI project, is it not?l 1.,
1 A
Yec.
18 G
What you are saying is thct tha coactruction within i 1
'9 the CEI system of entirely CEI transnisaicn lines cotGd have
O that inpact that you have doccribed upon Ohio dian?
21 A
It will havs en impcct on Ohio Edicc: viuhout 22 quastion.
It will reduce the encunt of po w r flowing into 23 their systam, their Johnson substation.
It nill aconnace the 24 arc. cunt of power floving out of their systcu onto other CEI D
interconnzetion and rearrange the flou of p rer within their I
i i
t
t 1
8253 l
ch 3 !
i i
a 5?Stom.
w.- T..w'1 3 n..' w~. n~ R.
?.d....+ 9.77:1 m. *. -r.
<-.'.8
':.*+*.'."-.
n r.
m a
i D0os Chio Zdican iced ecce of it: c.n ';020;;
4 via C3I linco to tha coct2 of Cloval:.ad, te Sr.a ?,hio Edison t
U cervice craa to tha tecst of C107alanG?
G d
TE WI'2E5G:
So:c.3 on d,o po.m r Cs 7.?lm tice g':
4 our systers.
Ecnver, Ohio udicen has 315 Pa* tr.n.'r.iecien i
0 from the Ohic "d.ver up into tha Td:rca crc *_. rhcra thcy I
D have their Star 4thatation., c.nd b c n More up nO the.3 savor to I schstation.
-t t
11 EAIIGGN RIGT2R:
Whcra ic thG Star nuhrac/-ic'J?
n Dces it show on E=hibit lil?
?.
ia.,
It 1:ocld not c~ ca on 5:fdhiu 112..
It!
TE UI'IU3SS:
r 4
14 dcas shcw on E:ii* cit 112.
It is mct of JJ rcn cnd canth o.'i 1S j.
Cleveland.
1 16 CIIAIRimi RIGL3R:
hot N gc b.ch to 111.
j i
17
+
tLt[~-J tosc Chio 2dicen sc:va er hr.72 a atidntien ab i
5 Oh any area to the couth of Clavcland which sh:r..w.s cn t2.9 m.U i
i 19 depicted on this 2-hihit?
eo TS WITESS:
Ho, they do nob.
1:c n o a -:n c h ct n.
i
~
4i
- ~1 i
CHAIRisli RIGLan:
I hicu nona cro chon.
Uc j
27~
they have them?
m A
I assuna :1 let or. compane.sc anvn.t.2.nec not chon 9
e s M
on thic exhibit because they cro not CEI linec.
TE WITHESS:
I thetght you r.2ic subctaticus.
i}
q
.i
e 4
1 ch 4 1254
'l t
I Ohio Ediscn, star..ing at Juniper cubctatic.n, going 1
scuth en the c.ur.e.le line, and than in c wcatarly U.raction, p
s you coma to the end of tho 345e the end cl C37. cracrahip in 4
j the 345.
Ectsever, that, obviously -- the circuit contince;.
i
..J l
Chio Edicon evns it fron that goint on.
It ecz2s in this 20ui'.-
5 usaterly direction to the Star cubstation, which id: ucct of
- 9
.'.krcn.
')
g CHAIPJ!."CT RIGL2R:
D,::23 Ohio I:dian G020cinua tava a:
O powr flew fren the Star subctation north tc the connsci-ica l
10 with CEI, then via the C2I liccc in n *:esterly direction to i
s.
the Ohio 2dicen car 7ico te.'.ricory ever hy l'envar?
12 THE WITNESG:
PcWor ficus in that direction, huh 13 i
it la cwfully hard to toll whosa it ia.
la HR. BUC!EGini:
C.112rgo en ^htt and crplain if.7nt yr:ui f
15 traan.
10 i
THE WITNESS:
Thora a: c t.co ways of leching et it/ !
I 111 is a good example to use, I think, i
I have talked and perhaps I shorld hcra Ecen ucrn i
19 careful about flows in en the couth contral arca of tha CEI
O I
system from its intercennections and cut the restern.
I cua i
e.
raadily ces why you get that feeling.
o>
There is another way to lock at it.
Tho cthm: way D
to lcok at it is say that is not Ohio Edir.cn 90nar at all.
It 14 is CEI povar fron Aven flowing cut hora and c r % g in at the l
n-3 couth.
You could arguo this all day and not be ebla to p ova t
8255 ch 5 1
one way or the other.
l MR. SMITE:
In th2ra a coat mrtincc to Ohio 2Ciccn,'
I i
trnnemicsion coct cavingo to Chio Edicen hacaur,e o.: that 4
?
I phenc=cnon, whatever you tay ec:.1 a.t.
4 G
T53IMdDSS:
The loccac of the cenbined cyctums O
arc lecc becauco of this phcnc*1cnsn. Suu it is not a i
i
?
8 e
one".ay street.
Uhnt I am getting at is thic.
'If ::a opcnod 3
up thouc ucatorn interconnectionc or had ncno, all of Ohio 9
Edison's requiremanta in thic arca, chvionsly,i:
"'M
%'ve to 10 ficw up f.v.,a the Akron arca cc.y, r.c'at to the e::tont 11 that other intore:nnectienc r.ight affect it.
12-I an quito cure that *f.e, electrical locric, if it 13 had to follou thct path, votid bc gecater than what hap!:cc.s.
I 14 Mn. BUC N dE!:
Bacacco of dictcnca?
i 15 TE iTPESS:
Eccauco of dictcnca.
The ecus is r
16 true with CZZ.
If all of CEI pota.: ha.d to floir evn: ito e.0:
17 circuitc, I think the loccca on the CEI systna mnld alcc
- 8 ba greater.
In ecsonce, us have a I.ct:ar plant that in a lot 10 i
physically and electrically cloco to Ohio Edicen lead arcac 20 than their power plants.
21 i They have got come pcuer planto in Couthcactern 22 Ohio that may not be closer, but they a::o a 1ct clccar to 23 l
Cleveland thcn thcy e.:a to Lorain, uhich ic :na accd cree. wa 1
i
.M are tm1Mng about of Ohio Edicen woct of Cleveland.
L's both 25 benefit by the way tha pcrer flows.
CEI c.nd Chio Zdicon leccat) l' l
ch 6 0255 j
1 I
are reduced.
i 2
CIIE.rJJdi RIGridn:
%'ould c:natruction of c. 7.ino by 3
Ohio M1wn frca a point north of the Star plan'_:, or north 4
of the Star abste. tion - lot's cry the apprsn5 tc locanica 5
where their 345 line connccts with the CI:I 365 linas, c?n-i 6
struction of a lino by Chio Edison frera ;: hat point to the E-anv:jr 7
i station reduce tha croblera of thz wantern lead centor?
i 8
THE WITIE:5S:
They have.one such ciradit.nov.
9 1
Thero is a Boavor-Star single circuit.,
It ah ;;7.7 on 2nhibit 10 111.
11 1
A sacend circ"it ticuld hcip the p-* ~.
It 12 probably t;cn't colve it.
The colution - it.ccf t reduco 13 the flows on this lino cut ac much na thecs oth:n: niternatiraI 14 will reduce thoce flcuc.
Therefore, at leatst in ny c_oinien, i
15 i
it i:2 not as good a colution and would probtbly ccst r.orn.
~
f 16 MR. BUCISLURI:
I think I havn reached tha sad of l
17 a line, if the Chai. man plears.
18 CHAIFJ721 RIGI2R:
This is a goed brm& Scint for f
19 I
lunch.
20 Eas the Socrd taken advantago of your invite. tion I
to ask questionc to a degree trhore wo have tir:cr. off yo;;
22 direct exan % ation?
l I
HR. BUCEMEGN:
Not at all.
I en delightoi to have 24
_you do it.
That is why no brought Mr. Binghan.
CE.UPOLEI rihR: WOxwill conc back in cae hour.
25 s'
F S'57 ch 7 j.
1 (iihereupon, n'c 1:00 p.m., the hearing uns ccenced 2
and 20 to reconvene at 2:00 p.m. tho ca;ra derf.)
T 3
I i
4 5
i 6
7 8
9 i
10 i
I 11 I2 l,
(-
13 14 t
15 16 17
.s 1
18 1
19 20 i
4 21 23
I "5S AL 1
AFTSElICOIT SESSICl?
cA l (2 US P 2-3 aA-2 3
M areupoa, t
t
/,
'/UM~ I.~CI 27. 3II?(~"3Il e
t 3
resuned the stand and, hc7ing 3:en pre.'ictc?.y Cr?.y srarn, i
I g-
- 'as ernmined cnd testifiad furth0r cc 20110?3:
l i
1 t
DIICCT ErlGTATICl? {ccatinned) i I
i 3'
EY Mt. DUC'itTJJ:
6 i
1 Q.
Mr. Bingh:'Ja, directine vcur cttention to E: ihit i
9 I
to 112 - by the tsy, e.n I correct, lir. Singh:n,. Uhun that wnn
],
11 mounted, more was cut off than a picca of ur, car '4ich.'.q n?
i r
i A
Yes.
I noticed thca 2 put it up 'hia ;re.T. ins c
,2 2
k that ere had succeeded in cutting off tim: Ichand er hey t&ich 13 tal1$youwhatthacoloracra.
,4 Im. DUcciAlm:
Ehen ::e provida copie:, na trill
,_t3 1
I Provids tha full map, not tri:!nad.
l 16 3Y f<T.. BUCD.3!17:
i 17 i
O Mr. Dinghs.m, tell us quickly what tr.2 c91erc
,S i
i represent scacrnlly.
.g A
The solid grcan linas, for c r_rpla thi: cno r"r 4cd 0
3 dovn totmrd the lottar end of Lake liichigan, tirec.r;h Indiant, g
Ohio, dotm to tha Chio 'Rivar, that is a 763,000 icit lino 1
y-c'.med by, in this cace, the ?.norican 31schric 2ccor S~vstca.
m.
l' All of the colid green linoc are eni.cting 755,000.
The deshod green lines arc linca trhich havo haan I
..Q t
l 4
s i
r 8259 ca..
nuthori=cd.
In 2 number of cccco, d.07 rc or dably '=dar i
i construction at the present tica.
Y I cc c,oing to tako thic in cd.er af d <ccendhg i..
Ts, voltages.
Tha next higher voltage en the rt.cp are the orange e,
s linen.
Eero, for oramplo, are acca ia Pennsylvmia.
In l
thic caso, they run frem tha Keyctona Cc:=cnw. alth planto n.
L9 f running cactwcrd through Penn ylvcnic.
Thn*salid crenge io l
0' 500 kv lina, and tho dached oranga era nuthericad 500 hv to linos.
11 The next stop dosm uculd ha 7.,65 17.
This is 4m t i.
indicated by the colid red linas W i n ara c11 ovax tha nap.
L And the same thing, a fc: dotted linco are authericsd lim c.
l a,
220 hv ic choTm by blua linca.
I'on oIrpla, here are a wholn flock cf thn in Catra.0, pnr: or tha l
t.
Ontario hydro arctem.
He us.ntioned carlier thic.ncenir.g, I
8
'7 horn is cna particult.r eno to have talked cbent, running from Erie ucst, through the Glads anb3t:ticn in which is connects Seneca into the whole systcu and continucc contInc.Lcc
,,"3 ar part of the systen.
n 0
Is that su far dcun ac the cap chcwr.?
~
49 A.
tio.
The rather thin black lino na, I belicve,
~~
2^"
115 or 120 kv linos.
115, 138 cre the anno gar.oric clac;s of s *e i
transmission.
25 7 p.N: that is chout ac lou as it goes.
It dee.s La
I l
4 ch 3 8260
,i 1
not show the 69 IU undergrcund lines owned by CJI, fcr 2
e.xample, that I me.ntionad earlier thiu acrning.
j 3
B You described thic morning whan we ware looking f
i 4
at Exhibit 110 the circumstances that when ccz.cono turns en
}
3 a light at the cuatemar levol, there was a virtually instan-
[.
O s
taneous impact back at the porar plant.
Do you :.uccl1 chat l
l 7
testimony?
i e
i a
A
- Yes, o
G Can changes in load cutsida of a con.pany system l
t
- g impact upon its power plants?
g3 A
Yes.
As a matter of fact, cichar cl.c1ges in load 12 or the changes in capacity outside the system.
13 G
Could you give me an c:: ample and ceceribe how in 14 w uld impact upon the CSI systam?
A 15 Numerous places in this intorecnnacted cyctem are j
large individual loads.
The two kinda I can think of nould gg t
8 37 be electric arc furnacec; another type would be a rolling i
mill.
g3 I
19 An electric arc furnace, when it co.Tas on, it comes:
on bang, all at once.
At least in the CEI system we havo
,0 furna es as big as 40 megawatts.
When that furnace comes i
21 22 n, I know our load dispatchor sees its effect on our systen.
I Thara pould be some rim effect of that through' other ayctems. !
23 24 It is the kind of load that when it comes on, if 25 s operated properly, it is a relatively crabla load while II
ch 4 0261 l l
I it is thera.
It cones on and off liha turning on r.nd off n'
a light.
i 3
A steci mill would ha a differant kind of cituatien, 4
in that you get a surge of power when a 7c11100 hits the I
i 5
rollers, hits the stand that has the rolle in it.
Yen get an l 6
instantaneous surge that would last caly to long as that bill:S i
7 was passing through that stand.
It usuld be a shortar 3
duration and would tend to ho on and off cuickly.
1 0
C What do you maan by rim effect?
i 10 A
Those impacts would be felt outside of our cyctem. ;
i 11 G
In what way?
l l
1 12 A
In that an instantaneous increase in lead in the C:CI i
13 system will impact on all of the generation connectad to l
14 the entire trans:nission netucrh.
Every generator in the 15 whole system will supply a little bit of that poucr.
i 16 The closer you are to the pcint at whic': that i
17 load is imposed, the greater impact it tende to hava.
And t
la if you get far enough away, you probably get denn to ccmething:
{
19 that ycu can't physically measura.
20 MR. SMITH:
This is a 40 megawatt icad, the
[
21 electric arc furnace?
22 THE WITNESS:
Ours happen to be 40 megawatt.
There<
23 are furnaces much larger than that, though.
1 24 BY MR. BUCmLMI:
25 G
Nhat about the failura cf a unit en c. nether system?
1 e
8262 ch 5 Kould that cauce an impact on the CBI cyntem?
7 2
A Yes.
I might add that other system: harc locd3 1
like these en them.
He would saa little effscus c1 those.
3 i,
4 There are not serious impact, but you ceo them.
5 With respect to the loss of a generating unit 6
in an ther system, certainly, the cams thing hcppans.
Acsome i the unit trips off.
That is come of the protcetive equipment 7
8 on the generator operatco so that it instcntancourly discon-nects it from the system.
i g
As far as the system is concerned, there is no 10 difference between that and tha instantcnccus imcocition of 3
g 4
a lead.
You have a situation occurring almost inctantaneously 1
where loac is bigger than generation.
j 13 i
The came end resnits show up.
Flcuc cn lines l
14 a
I through the entire system change.
Loadc, at icact fcr a 15 i
8 short pcriod of time, on generators through the entira i
16 i
system change.
Scme of these can be quite largs.
17 i
G Can you givs me an example of a larg: one?
i A
This is one that would not exist today because the transmission system has changed, but the Concolidated Edison j
-1 Company still has a machine which is naticnally farcus, known as Dig Alice.
It is a thousand megawatts unit in their i
~
Rivenswood power plant in the Borough of Queens, I b311eva.
At the timo it was installed, it was certainly
'the largest generating unit in this regicn, at least.
I S263 ch 5 I
O What was its si::a?
l 2
A.
One thousand msgcuatts.
3 When that unit nac ince 11sd, Smra unc no 755 hv i,
I' 4
as we talt.ad about earlier.
Tha 303 hv cycten in 3
Pennsylve.nia was either none:cistant or baraly in tha develop-G Itant stage, so thct the transmicsicn notverk was not ar. nearly 7
robust as it is new.
l 0
With the loss of 1,000 megauatta of capacity in 9
New York City, the cizo of ths.t impact was encugh so that it 10 was felh for ci::able distances.
l'or a:. ample, my recollection i 4
I 11 is that on our intarconnection bet.reen Ashtabula and Erie, j
and 25 12 we would see a 200 megawatt change in the flow cn that line.
l 13 I
14 i
15 t
I
.s 16 17 18 I
19 2o e
21 1
M l
I, 25 1
1
I 8264 l
?
4 I
G How long wculd in taka frc the tripping off I
S26 8
bwl of Big Alica to tha cime when you would cao ths; Jux.y on that. :.ina?
A Virtually instantanecus. A fraction of a cccond.
4 MR. SMITH:
You would loca 200 megawatta cut of 5
t your system, becauce of that.
THE WITNESS: Ua would be an intarvan ng party I
also.
What really happens is that we would have 200 l
megawatt change on this line and there migh ha changes i
on other lines, f
10 i
i i
17e would find on interconnecticns to the wast of I
11 s
us or south coming in, we would see an inctantencouc l
12 i
increase in the flew in on those lines.
Nou, this is 13
(
illustrative only. These numbers I have no idea whether they l
are accurate or not.
If we say 200 megawattu horc v: might 15 1 for ullustrative purpcses think that perhaps CEI ganarated I
l 16 ten more. And a 190 came in over our other interconnecticnn.
17 In order words, everybody along the lins picks p 18 up a piece of this deficiency.
CEI, as well as tha paople to cast of us and a lot of it pickad up to the west of na.
I 20 f
BY MR. BUCInfANN:
i G
They do that automatictlly?
i 22 f
~'
A This happens autcmatically.
Ycu gat an 23 instantaneous reaction.
You have the incrtial energy of 24 turbins so you get what amounts to a surge. Then the governors i
25 i
1 4
4
,,w._,.o__.
w r
- ' ' - ~ ~ " ' ' ^ - ' '
8265 l
l 1
l bw2 on avery machine in the entira nar..*cr.1 try t:. es: up thic 2[
deficinacy. We talked abcr.t a single unit W.ic nornir.y. Bis j
l J
would happen to the gova norn and all of tha sys es.rs.
t 4
Eecause thera 13 a r. attar of ti:a ra3I.c:ua to tha i
5 I
changing of loada all of those units.7ill halp pic': up l
6 something.
7 (L
Mr. Bingham, you uued this morninc, the word i
~
8
" wheeling."
Will yot) tell us what you definition c3 wheeling is?
t to
.i Ucil, I at lanst for my purpecec, I 1cck at two l
considerations.
I think I mentioned this morning that I j
l ~'
considered that PEliELEC was Whatling for CEI.
In ocasnce, 1
1 '
(
thi9 is taking CEI power, tching in throtygh, the I4 PnTE*.EC systcm and putting it back cn the CEI syctons, i
1 A pcvar goes through B nystem ano 2.s teturneti to A Ot noto 16 other point.
j I7 Another instance where you might at 1 cast in my opinion have ocmathing called wheeling would be where yac take A pcwer through B system, delivered to C, 20 In both cases, certainly in the PE3ELEC cace I
t 21 I referred to earlier a payment is made for that scr.tice i
U and we' would expect certainly if someone wara wheeling for l
..(.
h U
us, somebody else's power to pay for that too.
l l
M MR. LESSY:
Would tha reporter rond back the i
25 answer?
j l
li
}
8266 I
t bw3 i
t (The reporter read the record as requested.)
I can'enca l
2 MR. LESSY:
I move tc strike th c
3 beginning " Another instance, in my cpinica," bacause he dcz:
4 not describe the PEUELEC situation of wheeling involved in 3
the CEI system.
He is describing another possibla usa of 6
wheeling outside the CEI system or cente::c.
i MR. BUCEMANN: The questicn was his definition of f,
8 wheeling.
MR. LESSY:
It should be limited to the CEI i
g system and his explanation in that conte::t.
10 CIIAIMRNA RIGLER:
Net in the cente::6 of a definition.
3y We overruled the objection.
l 12 l
13 BY MR. BUCHMAMH:
G The PENELEC situation you alludad to was the 14 dealing in Seneca pcwer?
t o_.
A That is correct. The wheeling of Seneca Pcwer 16 to the CEI or --
17 i
- Y*" *
- "* "U
- ""?
l 10 n
- A Yes.
19 0
Tell us uhatyou t
me an.
'0 i
A I think it was in relatienchip to residential
~1 i
I customers or small customers where the nr.tering price only 3
22 I
the amount of energy k.
L.
I think I stated at that time 23 1
that the demand and 1 probably should have said the demand l
24 and customer-related costs -- perhaps I did -- tha demand i
I.
I i
G257 g
l 1
bw4 and customer-related coa l:a were built into M rurgy 2
blocks.
j i
e a
In CEI rssidantial rate ochedulos na h ra hw.t is l.
4 known as a block onargy typa rata.
In cur cnce, uho fir:3t l
5 l
blec': is 300 kilowatt hours icng.
i 3
The second block is 700 a d the third and inat 7
1 bicc'c is everything over 1000. Uc would, for e:cnn;1e endea ter j r
c 1
to build all of the customar-related coste,<
l I
9 essentially the things that are constant avar; month tuto 'tha j
10
{
first 300 kilowatt hours.
11 BY MR. BUCH:WiM:
1 12 i
0 Mr, Bingham, turning to the -- you ara famili..:
i i
i 13 with the various kinds of transactions th:t can be nad over 1
1 14 I
interconnections, are you not?
i, 1
1 15 A.
Yes.
t, 16 i
G And familiar with how the trancactice.c.;ro pr cad at; I7 least by the Illuminating Company and the chher personc 10 4'
with whom you deal?
3 19 A.
Yes.
i 20 G
Can ycu tell me what factors antor into the i
21 pricing of power in purchases frca other compani.as?
22 MR. LESSY You mean transactions hot 7ean tb, 1
23-Illuminating Company.
and others?
t 24 MR. BUCIDIANN: He sells it also, i
j 25 MR. LESSY:
Transactions hatween the Illuminating
).
i
.I
6268 bw5 i
Company and others.
Not generally in the industry.
I object if it is a general indication of prii:ing I
~
s 1
j of transactions in the electric utility industry.
j i
e I
t, He can tell us about the pricing transactions concerning CEI.
CHAIRMMi RIGLER:
Ue undcrctand the li:aitation en I
i 7
the question. We understand the question with that i
i e
limitation.
i l
i o
i MR. BUCHMNiN: That in what I maant to ask, certainly!.
i 10 THE WITNESS:
Consider fcur factorn. To soma I
I II cxtent they may overlap or relata to one another.
i 12 One f actor is the degree of firmness in the i
13 1
1 transaction. Another f actor is the durati?n or expected 1
l#
j duration of the transaction. A third uculd be the - t 15 purpose for which the transacticn is being carried out, and 1
16 the fearth is whether there is a degree of mutuality for tha 1
17 kind of service being provided.
.O BY MR. BUCHMANN:
13 4
Well, in your dealings cf this sort, what doec 20 firmness have to do with it?
Why does that have impact 21 on the price?
3 i
1 j
22 A
It has two effects, really.
One is that to sone 23 extent it af fechr. even the short-run cost, the i:aerdiate 24 cost of the transaction.
And if you were to furnish auch i
s-25 service fer any extended period of time, it has an hapact i
i
8269 be6 on the capital invest = ant requirementof the celler.
G r... dces duration have to do arith it?
2 j
i A
Curat cn would be related ncinly, I thin.4, u; 3
the car' ~_ investment recuirement.
4 For examplo, vre would concidar son.e forna of J
5 emergency pouer and perhaps coordinated naintenanca powcr, G
as being virtually firm power.
If you are supplying cuch 7
i power for a week or a day, it is obvious that you don't ruch 8
out and build a new power plant to do it.
If you would 9
contract to sell firm power for five years, you :iculd j
10 g
cbviously have recogniced this in your pr2vicuc capccity l
11 planning.
I 12 I
G You said the purpose was a factor you tech inte 13 account.
Why?.
14 4
A We will consider economy interchenge.
Until I i
15 raised econcmy interchange,most of the kind cf pofer 2 have hcan 16 talking about were priced purely on cost.
There mr.y b:
a cost,
2 17 plus or might or might not be a demand shortcge, but coct-18 based.
1 3
19 i
The purpose of econcmy interchance is to achieva l
20 an economy.
The pricing here is, in fact, a value of service
~
21 I
approach.
22 If I can generato a 20 ndis and my neighbor 23 l
can generate for ten, this particular instance, juct 24 i
because of the temporary conditions, it is obvious that wo are ih 25 i
a position to work ani econcmic trade for both of us.
4 i
i
I 2270 l
bw7 If he ganarates scme and cells it to us, i:
6 obviously hac no greater value te CEI than tre cast od our deirf:
} h it curselves.
It obvicucly must ha cc a grn::or va!.ue to the l
3 i
i saller taan his cost o.' gancracing it.
I i
t I, therefore, Lun inte the typical 50-50 split aaviniga economy inte cha.nge. :rancaction.
f i
(L In the exampla you gc.ve, they tau?.d sell for 15?
1 A
Yes.
l l
0 CHAIR 1!AN RIGLER:
Is d.at the only e;:rgle of 9
+
purpose?
THE UITNESS:
.; lot of these things yet inter-II related. a coordinated mainten2nca arrangenant, #cr l
ex::aple.
It may relate to all of the hinds or I
I3 factors.
For example, it has a ptrpocc, to improve reliability to a degree, to sava r.cncy in capital investmant.
15 It has to be pretty firm, so you can count en i
16 ig, 17 CHAIREV! 2IGLER:
What diffarence desa the 18 purpose make in terms of cost savings, going back,
'.c ' ' a 19 say, to your economy energy c:: char.ge.
'l i
20 THE HITNESS:
If the seller concludt.1 he had to 21 ger a full allocated share of his fi::cd charges of pc/.er.r i
i a
22 production or power plant, ha couldn't ueel in all likelihood, !
l 23 could not sel.'. the econeny :.nterchangc.
j i
When he cdds on his fired charges, ha could l
24 25 well price the economy at above the incremental 20sn of the 1
1
?
3271 bus
}
buyer to produce it, in which casa thu buyer >ca't buy j
t it.
Since the purpc3e of the transaction 10 ;.c Iconu_niah i
I 5
an econcirf, the pricing must faci.~.i::sta that p= ?c*a cr he won't acccmplish it.
I 4
CHAI.WJi RIGI22:
Purpoce re.lat33 no achic7ing 5
un economy or increasing re2'.abiliby; is ths':
i 6
j what you have said?
t THE WITNESS:
Generally upcahing, thoco Uoulii
[
be purpocas or objectives.
t CHAIRIGN RIGLF.R:
All cf thoso cor.a no in a 10 pricing ccnstr craticn.
irny would the chjecti te of ine,reacing 2
rc. liability hava any influenca en the prica at uhich the power is sold?
4 l
THE WITNESS:
I'm not sure it would in that to
- case, MR. LESSY:
Could I ask one questica on purgot,ef Purpose frcm whose point of view:
the buyer er Eclier?
In other wordz;, do you Icck at the purpose cd the pcrty who 18 needs tA6 powe r or your purpose in colling it t - th.m.
10 THE WITN3SS:
I think g.3nerally at laIst in sly case, it would ge the purposes of both of the parties.
21 BY MR. BUCHIGMN:
22 r
i i
l O
The fourth item you mentioned was mutuc.lity.
23 t
Can you tell me what that means and how that impactc en j
24 price?
I 25 A.
In the casa of CEI wa have an agreemand with the I
L
I 8272 bw9 Ohio Pcwer Ccapany and oneof the provisicas ia an smargancy 3
l backup provision, l
2 i
In this ecse we each cgree that se will atsply be j
3 t
i the other, as creagency pcwer, up be - Iin sorry, cd lonst j
4 100 megawatts for at 1 cast 43 hours4.976852e-4 days <br />0.0119 hours <br />7.109788e-5 weeks <br />1.63615e-5 months <br />.
Th2rc ic sc e 5
history, as to how the nuabara devaleped, buc ' cet is G
what they are now.
7 N,
m incure hoth an obligation and a benefit 8
frcm thic provision.
We can count on b2ing able to 0
get 100 magavatta from Ohio Pcwer, unicas chey happen to 10 be in an emergency themselvea. Wa must also design our g
system so as to be able to cupply 100 mgawatts to Chio 12 i
Power, unless we are in an emarger.cy.
g i
. Essentially, it impliec these burdans and 14 t
benefits to both of us. W both have to olan our 1
15 1
j systems so that we don't have too many emergenciec.
16 i
i Under a condition like that, we don t get j
17 concerned with the capital costs of being able to do this, i
i even if we can identify them, because we cnpoct to get an equal benefit back.
1 And in this case the emergency pcuer is sold on 21 basically an out-of-pocketcast plus a percentege bacia.
I:S26 23 j
t 24-25 I
i 1
i I
i EAK$7 8273 1
c.1 1 I,
l 1
i CHAIFl!AN RIGI.ER:
'Jou are saying ycc obligation j
i arises frcm your commitment to Lpply C.lio Scuar uith this 3
?
I 4j emergency power, which could have the eff se; of raising your l-l system costs.
?cu have to plan e:tra esp scity so that if 5
_a you are called upon to parform, you troulI ha72 tno pcwer 4
.e i
available to deliver?
7 THE WITNESS:
That is righc.
2 i
3 CHAIR!G.N.' RIGLER :
NoT, if you didn;t havo this
[
?
l agreement, wouldn't you still have to have that entra 100 nf cf capacity to supply your oun raserves?
1 11 1
I In other words, it seemc to me you have not taken i
1 12 I
into account the reserve sharing acr.ects of this agreement.
I 13 THE WITNESS:
Idon'tthinkIphrcan.1myanswerwel.f.,
14 As a matter of fact, there is an ovarall saving of capacity.
15 i
The benefit we gat generclly is bigger than the chligation-16 we incur.
This is true of the other side, i
17 I am<taking, looking at the end rcault but i
IB breaking it into two parts.
The benefit ic bigger than the 19 burden.
Otherwise, you wouldn't do it.
Eun you do have the l
20 r
obligation, still.
j 21 i
You might express it this way.
In return for the 22 benefits we gec, we have the obligation to De :ble to back 23 the other guy up to the same e:: tent.
24 I
BY MR. BUCID! ANN:
25'l G
How would it affect your pricing.'.f you did not l.
i.
i
9 I
i f
.o.n. 74 ch.
1 have such mutuality?
2 l
A.
Under those conditionr, you ucc'd havt to vire; e
a u
I the trananction: from the standptint of u' ad will :n the l
4 duration of it.
iTc.an %ind of burden" o-41' i.. inposo en your r,
a cystem.
G i
For e::cmple, in thin arrangsmant uith Uaio 12cwer, 1
e I mentioned that this arrangement is for at leuat 100 m2ga-8
\\
watts for 48 hours5.555556e-4 days <br />0.0133 hours <br />7.936508e-5 weeks <br />1.8264e-5 months <br />.
If our emarcer.cy ic going to e:: end i
9 beyond 48 hourc -- and I might interfect at this pcint, wo 10 i
don't intand to have this cort of prcbler. of exte.nded emargencies.
12 For exmplo, if the emergency occurs on a Ucdnosday; 13 4
evening, you have the ne::t two days plus a e.aehend to e/ork on,
e 14 i
say, a generator.
'Cf it occurs cn a Monday morning ve11%
that is not so good.
Frequently, you have mora t.F.n the tfo
'G days in which to colve your problam becausa of tha time l
'7 i
period in the week at which it cccurs.
13 0
You better e:cplain thet.
19 Your loads arc down en the wackend, c yen m2y
~O not need pouar from the other party?
2~1 i
A.
Thct is correct.
If you hr.ve acr.e hind of problerci !
I 4m9 that you cannot cure
_,a u..nat per,oc. c:. tu.:c, wa are arpectca, 3
and do make other arrangements for the purchace of powor.
t I
'4 l
G Uhy is there such an expectation?
25 Who has that e:poctaticn?
1 i
ch 3 3275 1
A I don't racs22r saving orp::ctation:
2j G
You ccid ycu zerc a=p-'ated to m.ic ochar arranga -
3 nants.
4
~
A Oh, tro parce colling ycn P.hc sc ur orpac'a 5
that because, in occanca, his gua::entcc ic g:Od f;:: GC hours.
G After that period, he dcocn't have uc cupply c argeency pctnr 7
under that schedule.
O G
All right.
D And do yca he.va the car.c provici:ns in 5' cur 10 schsdules when you call ccorgency pow r?
11 A
Wo don't have the id2*1tical trrang2:0th in every 12 schedule.
We have arrangement: that 1:111 accouplish the 13 same ond.
I 14 G
Maybe that is the cunctien.
15 What is the end you cra trying tc acconplich uiuh 1G this 48. hour limitation?
17 A
Well, it is certainly te begin typlyf_vj prancm:c --
~
13 I
pressure is the tc:ong word -- to provido en incentiva for the.
19 person in the emargency to correct his own pechlcm and gst 20 his capacity back on line tho iay it shecid be.
21 G
What businesc ic that of yotu :::7 A
Well, to the extent that ccpacity is 2na.vailable 23 in the region, tha raliability of the entire rsgica is 24 waakened.
You plan your own sycten to be able to handlo your 25 scheduled Ir.aintenanca requirementa, a certain dagroo cf i
I i
i e
i i
l 3276 ch 4 i
9 I
forced octago requi.renonto, i
i The pricing anchenicn ea cra ualkini c0:. cat ancon-i e
rcres a party to do that accescar/12aintananco 1:o::h, b3 got 4.
(
' c: ha'm it <:vcu suctur?.gsc l
tha equiprent bacc cn tha lina.
J 5
I I
them to do a. bottor routino prc:2ntivo n2intentnes job co 6
ycu have feuer problenc.
ii 7
I CHAIRI.G RIGISR:
In that bour.uco ycu charca n l
t G
pranium for the energency service?
3 i
I nm tcTscs:
In tha casc of c22, if n ara i
10 buying or colling aft 2r tha first tuo dayc,. a Sc.:!::nd charga 11 i
gcas on.
12 CHAITJD3 RIGT.2F.:
Lat'n talk about the Ohio Pot:0r 13 arrangement during the firct t'.co days.
Ic ths.t ecid at n i
1 14 I
rato in excess of yon: rates for othar ty;;a.s of pc::cr?
15 TEI: UIT!TESS:
Wa huy.'!::cm them at h'io hignant s
2 1G t
incremsatcl encref.,r cost in their uynten.
W.cy call it to nu i
1 at their out of pcchot costa.
It unuld be the retcal ine::c~
i e
t
)
mantal fuel cocta, inercrcntal laher, incrarantal r.intennnce, ti 19 cnything that ia coct that they mmld int.'ir that they vonld
'0 5
not have otharwico incurrod.
i
,'3-CraIRMA11 RIGLER:
Ic thcre any profit pl cad!
~n on the transaction?
TEE WITH23S:
Tcn percent.
E'ena peoplo dispute 2,$
whether it is profit or whether it in the in3.Sility to i
E calculate coat numbers to tho absoluta accurney, but it l
l
I t
i 8277 ch 5 1
probably hcs profit in it.
I l
CIIAIPRD.II ?.IGI22:
Thin emarg::c; e m r is aigh 7
coct poecr, high prie d sct:ar, if thc.t hal<;.s you?
4 T32 hTfS2SS:
It 10 high enorgy ccct.
'.:na.'.t h r 5
i no demand chcrtcga on it.
It ar.y in fact -- it may c:oct G
less than firm pcwer.
It dce:;n' t hr.va to.
It 1 ponds on the 7
hind of enit involved.
O In the CEi syst.n, for crc.nple, if U2 trarc rclling 0'
stergaazy power, and in most cisen thic :cula h:nd to bc on 10 i
peak povor; pacple don't buy tho ro'.rcr if they don't noud it. [
11 Uhan their loads are off, they genercto their crem roccire-12
. load periods that the-j nacd it.
l r:enta.
It is at their peak 13 Thoce tend to coincide roughly withour pac.k lead 14 pariods.
At that point in time, ne bring ca cil-firred 15 ganeration in Cleveland.
Suddenly, the inern nstra. cast of 16 energy more then doubles, boccur.c cil not only cor/:s nera
.o than twice as auch as coal, but it ic burned in tha locc 10 efficient planto.
Go tha inercrental coat cf nargy conceiv-19 Itisprobablythatthatiachantthenestll ably could triple.
20 expensive energy around, even in terms of tctal 0o.23.
21 CHAIFJ1AN RIGI.3R:
And the 10 percent 7:021t or 22 add-on, howe mr you want to descri.bs it, ic figured on the basis of that tripled incremental matc; is tht cerroct?
24 THE WITI' DSS:
Ycc, it is.
25 CHAIIUGJI 2IGLER:
In ecsonca, C3;I would be making 8
327S 1
ch 6 1
its nanimum rofic.
b.'? the calo of ci.".oraency saarre a3 conea r,3d l.
~
3 to other types of cnarg'f saloa.
In that ccI:rce::?
j THE I?IT11I Sil:
I really don't balian ::o.
That 10 4
i parcent: isn't throtn on as a profit iten.
der ena"ple, /.a 1
a 4
the datorninction of increr,antal producnien c ::3, ahin la G
I' based on tnsts that us have r.cdc over a pericf ci a amnbar 7
of yocra tiaors we hr.v at various loadingc cn r.rions 8
nachinas detarsir.cd the haat rate nad trhnt th incrc/.Jontal 9
I l
heat rata is betr.cn 1cading positions On th3 ntchit.co.
I 10 '
But ecma of thae.a tacts arc a litt1.a cld.
Gruk.t'lld, 11 i
cvar the life of a nachino, in general, cnd in 20ditica1
{
12 i
=pecifically betwe:n r.njer overhaul periods, heat sts 1
13-deterioratos.
Although we would like t.o be chl1 to say t;a f
14 kacw what the incremant:al heat rate is preciccly, the anni.or i
15 is wo don't know t; hat it is precicely.
!?e could ha off a couple of percent.
17 If uc are off a couple of percent, tra will bc i
13 off that much in the pricing of the oncrgy.
The cart of the 19 fuel par millica Etu wuldn't affect that - crcj 5 percent l
9 and 27'0 tec uny bu off.
9 begin ::3~ 1 CHAIrcIAH RIGL2n:
Doecn't the cale of po m r at your highest incrorental conts actually enia.nce your profit 23 in yet another way, in that it i= loraring the nvor:ga cost M
of the poter you cro celling to your orn customars?
25 Tus tr.cT: css:
not at e21.
No, cir, thr.t is not i
A I
3279 ch 7 1
MR. SMITH:
ou don't gelt a raturr. ca invasi-: ent
%i on c larger.cy p:nar?
. =
- J l l
TEE WITU3SS:
O,
'ta do not,
4!
l MR. SMITH:
Entest.2at included in the 10 parc2nt i
5
12 at all.
It 10 fuol cesta, labor contti 5
THE WITU353:
To the 2". tent that any of hh2 10 3
7 I
parcent turns out to b.1 in enocca of costa.
i 0
i CHAIPra RICLI:R:
Su pono in ceder to schicfy tha domand to Ohio Pcuar you don't hava no light off any other 10 boilcru or do anything to open up nnether genarating ctanion.
suppeae you can hendla it uith yctn cyctura :.c it la presonuly 12 ruani.ng, juct by looking at it cc ant n lend ou generatorn
[
3 that aren't working at captcity ri<fht nou.
14
'i'HS WITNESS:
Concrclly cpc2hing, that Uculdn't 5
happen.
If we have 100 :tegawatts :.cv unch epir.n:.1g recorvo
-i 1
16 on the system, our operatcra aren't running tho zyctem prou.arla!
I.
i t '
Even if that could be donc, that would merely loxcr tha incre-i mental occt of supplying the energy, cad ::hnt us would bill j
i 19 to the buyer is the actual or calculatien of tha actual. in-I 20 crease in expenses.
i i
Perhapc I could illuctrnte this way.
Thuso nu-$cr0 22 ara purely for 111uctrativo purposes.
23 Suppose we vara generating our c'.m Icquiremante l
24 at an overall average of 10 mila per hilowatt hour.
Let's 25 assima us ars right at the point winre the next inc cmant of f
5 t
1
.J
8230 c:.1 8 I
lead that ccmca on will roccira t20 at:rting of cno of tho l
3 oil-fired units and a lead of 100.cyanctea ecmac ca, cad 3
that 100 magav tta conto 30 mils t, genercto.
4 Karn I get vc::y illustrativa.
I will cae ma l
S that that in half of the lord, becauco I ccn divida by tuo.
i 6
Ovarall, we would have an average production ccat of 30 mile.
7 If this w ra our cun nativa lord, no txuld hcra to G
build 20 mila into our ratos.
A2 a catter cf fect, the feal O
l clausa cdjustesnt sta talkod aheut this torniney ::culd pick i.hnt!
1 10 i
up.
If it was c crgency scuor, h. mayor, m rauld coil that 11 emergency Pottor to the buyer et 30 riilc.
12 In the oporation of our fual ad$nsts: nt, the fuel 13 cost of that sala would ha deducted from ctri interra?. fu21 1
14 l
costo and we will como cut with c 10 mil fuel coct, liko 15 i
we started with, applicablo to on: o:ra individuni custcuarL 16 i
So that in tha casa of cc:orgency po :cr, the individucl who l
actually caucca the specific coat to be incurred h:2rc tho 18 1
rasponsibility for paying that cout.
l 10 MR. SMITH:
But isn't the: true ceci of erargency 20 i
power to the buyer not only what ho pays in increcer, uni fuel
- ~1 costs plus 10 percont, but what it conto hint to maint lin it.c n,
obligation vin-a-vic the other pa:-by?
If you cra raquired --
THE WITNESS:
Yoc.
Th'.c is tinat I think I trica 24 to relate to earlier.
You have the obligation to do it 25!
back for the other guy.
I 3201 8
ch 9 I
i MR. SXITH:
Evan if you don't do it. you have to i
2 maintain the captcity to do it,is'.ich ic pr.rt of ycur truo 3
coct of emergency powr.
f
.1 TEE WIT!7333:
That 12 ::igh::.
l 5
Again chai:e numbero a:e parha:n illurentivo. If I r
i w had :terely the right to racciva 100 but no obligatien l
s
(
to ever return it, that 100 magat:atte might be worth 70 or 80 l 7
8 in our system.
It would be nera cacept for tha <!;-hcur limitation.
Ecucvar, in ths ~ bac2uss va hava to h2 abla to l g
s' recpond, the 100 which nnybe firm gota disccuntcd to 70 cnds '
10 up with a net effect of 30 cr 40.
ira cave 30 cr 10 magavatos, g
}t not 70.
12 I
The roaces we don't cava 70 in that ec hc.ro a re-33 turn cbligation to the other gly.
14 I
1 BY MR. BUCh GRI:
1 5
e 4
G Dy "saw" Mmre you mean you avoid h ving to TG inctsll that capacity?
i 17 i
i A.
Yos, that is what I caan.
l 18 C.
Mr. Dingham, I don't know if the racerd refischs l
- g what heat rato is.
Can you tell uc?
l 20 1
A.
Heat rato is gencrally referrcd to in terms of tho 21 net heat rate, which is a quotient of the :nnter of Otus 22
- k of fuel consumed in a pla:it and the nct kilouatt hour 23 generation from that picnt.
y 4
Which do you strive to got, a high heat rcto or
,ss
0282 ch 1 1-1 low. httat Inte?
2 L
The lov heat rato is the docirchio thing co haJa, 4
~
i 3
. all.other things haing equal.
l 4
0 Continuing with the creargs'_cy pe= :: is it scacibloi i
5 to have an interconnecticn with m1 adjacant ::27czy r.nd not i
G hse a contract for energency pcrar?
j 7
A It is conceivcble.
l g
G If thera woro en s.morg3ncy en one of thoco systema j t
such cc the failuro of Dig Alico, wh.t hcpponc to the pcWor 9
i
- n from the other cysten?
i I att trying to ash, do you no2d a centract to tava f
.i the ecuer flo -?
2 4
9 2.
You don't need a contract for energency.
Uhtn
.,so t
n unit tripc, you get the inatcntanconc reactica I doccriba.d. i
- 4 The contract might -- I can't imagine uhy ranybcdy wanldn't T o_
t have an cmargancv agreer.ent, but you don't hnv:a uo.
The 6
e agree =ent might provide merely that when this event cccurrad f
- 7 that you will relievs the flow within t*.m ninutos or 20 minutcp
- g or get off tho other guy'c back within a ctat.
- S period ci f
9 tir.o.
.so B
Nou,you scid that ycur crorgsncy calua cents.nplatc6 g
either aither a limitation of 48 hours5.555556e-4 days <br />0.0133 hours <br />7.936508e-5 weeks <br />1.8264e-5 months <br /> or acusthir.g ci=ilar 42 to give an incentive to the other sqr to get it straightened out.
24 Did I paraphrase it correctly?
h 1
E283 ch 1?.
I
!n. LESSY:
Es said hic contrnet viit' ca.c utility 2
provided that, nct his cont: acts for all norgencius.
1 i
IG. ECCS1Ald:
Did I p,.raphraco you co;;v.c31y?
4 THE WITIDfSS:
I believu ycn did.
5 HR. LESSY:
Did you'- testimony cay t'aat W.3 a S
l general provisien in C2I contracts?
7 BY MR. SUCE2C:RT:
3 G
Doca that mean after 40 hours4.62963e-4 days <br />0.0111 hours <br />6.613757e-5 weeks <br />1.522e-5 months <br /> or cort.c other paried 9
of time you atop colling cleecricit:y?
'O 3.
No.
11 G
Mhat dcac it zecn?
I j ~a E
If it is neceacary to continta ths tsa.2 and/or tha j t
/
purchase, the trancaction ic continuad under 00.:2 other 14 schedulo.
I t
15 11 a
What in the price raintienchip like;17 to Se to 10 the original czergnncy price?
Does the prico p r.p or dcird?
l'
~'
A It generally goes up.
l 10 g
Wh? dc.you Awant to give this incontiva to anothcr 10 party, or why does ancther party want to giv3 it b,you?
l This is an incentive to get yotz equip:rmt rapnitedli 20 A
21 and' back on the line ao that you are not cnly _Gle to furnish *;
4 1
^
your own requirerenta but are nahing yot= ccatributien to the
'3 reliability of tho entire notuork.
0 Why, if I may say, is that a desirablo thing?
t d.
What concern does the celler have if you continue to take i
1.
i
~.
ch L.
I 8204 1
power from hin rather than rear.oring your ocv.ipacat?
G Well, na are all conceracd uibh reli:Sility of ths 3
e nattsork.
If the entira network is acck bccanca c party or 4
u mbar of partlec ara not maching their obligati:na, the not-S work is juct ac taah for us cc it-is for anybody else.
Tha G
likelihocd of our being able to get aanrgency certica 17 hen I
s rsquired in d.ixainished.
The reliability of avorybody in i
c diminished, not just the pe_ica teho say be catring tha 9
treuble.
10 G
Now, aro you fattiliar 'f7ith tht ter.T; "chort-to za 11 powcr"?
12 end 28 A.
Yes, I em.
13 14 15 i 13 17 18 19 20 2f 22 24
]
i 25 l
i I
0235 1,
S29 1
0 What does that maanto you?
bwl 2
A.
This is cnc of the alternatiw c or c'.Qutitutes j
I e
3 for emorgency power.
4 Us have this agreement in cur Ohio I;emr contract,-
I 5
as well as, I guess, in all of our contracts.
6
'i'his is po' tar contracted fcc by the tnek.
f 7
This is not to imply you can't go cut and sign 71 contract for e
30 weeks.
But the deraan charge is premised en a weckly
-O demand charge.
It is firmer cervice thm, cay, econcar,1c 10 intercharige.
l Eut the scler presumably chauld he able to 12 give you reasonable assuranco that you will be able to get 13 the power continuoucly.
- a ile is not guarantocing guarants.aing 10 the i
15 wrong word -- he is not backing it up to the a:: tan: he
}i 16 would firm power.
If he has problems you will go before i
17 somebody eine will.
r 18 But in raturn for that demand charge, you maha
- g him, he is sort of saying my capacity situi tion is such that f
20 I'm pretty darn rure it will be availabic mcsb
- all of the time.
21 i
22 Did you say there was a demand charge in thai rate?
23 l
A.
Yes, this is a weskly demand chargo.
24 1-G I'm n t sure I knew what a weekly denand chargo 25 i
. ~..
82S6 1
is.
bw2 2
A It is so many dollara per kilew2tt of mcximum 3
demand each week.
4 How do yoc charge -- price the enerT/?
5 A
The energy is priced it.the sa:te manner.
It is 6
the out-of-pocket costs of producing that energy, plus 7
ten percent.
i 8
G It is the same mannar as energency pcwa-?
I o
A Yes.
10 CIIAIRMPl4 RIGLER:
Would you tell m? once Egain what 11 f actors go into whatyou have been calling incremental 12 costs?
t 13 THE WIT!TESS:
First, in the ganeral sensa, it is 14 to be all of these costs which you would otherwiss I
i i
15 not have incurred had you not made the sale,
~
16 The biggest single item would be fuel.
i 17 There is incremental maintenance on power plant.
18 For example, one, I think sort of obvious pince where you 19 would have incremental maintenance is in coal 20 pulverizers.
Either the balla or rolls depending on what devices wear out as a function of hcw much coal they grind.
21 22 If your grinding nore coal, they will wear out 23 sooner, and you have maintecance costs, There are other elements that centribute to 34 incremental maintenance.
Conceivably
-- well. a customer 25 I
l
32G7 bw3 1
may want the power around-the-clock.
I may not.
Vnather 2
he wants it or not you : cay have to r.an an additicnal unit.
t I
i i
3 You may have to call empicyees in. hold ampicyus., pay over-4 time or something, in ords: to have enough additicnal men-f power to operate an additie'nal unit: or to start additional j
5 l
6 units.
7
?requently, there are incromantal tanes asscciated with transactions.
g CHAIRMAN RIGLER: Are there any provisicns for g
administrative or staff fbetionE on thO Syc?Om?
10 THE WITNESS:
Generally speaking, ncne.
3g CHAIRMMI RIGLER:
So that if a company 'Jare tc 12 p
i sell at increnantal costs, it would scon go braha?
j 13 i
I MR. BUCHfWiN:
If yc" define incremental costs j
34 1
1 I
that way, you mean?
15 TIIE WITNESS:
If it were sold at incramental 10 i
costs, it would coma out even en that trrnsaction.
j g7 CIIAIR!IMI RIGLER: Eacause it has no provision for 18 return on investment or recovery of capital ccsts or 19 t
administrative expenses,it would go broke, i
20 THE WITNESS:
If it went into the business of 21 e
selling at that kind of incremental coct, it would go broke, 22 very fast.
23 BY MR. BUCliMANN:
y O. -
You referred to the pulveri::ar.
Do ycu still i
g I
0288 bw4 exhibit 110 up there?
g 2
A' YG8' 3
G Am I correct that the pulivninar ycu ara j
4 referring to is something marked "pulveriter"under coal bin?
5 A
Yes, it is.
It is a the lef t side cf the 6
o I
7 representation of the power plant.
l g
B What dcas it do?
A g
Coal as delivered in the CI:I system acsbly is rail 10 al and comec into comathing known as a car dunpar.
1 It takas the freight car and turna it upsida dot:n and 1
i dumps the coal into a bin.
It gcas then through a breaker.
12 It takes the randum lump sizes in the ccc1 car and breaks them down into a size no larger then, say, one-inch or i
14 1
i an inch and s., half or something of that nature.
It is i
carried up a belt and dumped into what is called a coal 1
)
bin, which is ordi.narly referred to as tha coal bunker, where you store a great many tonc of coal.
In fl:us i
by gravity out of that into what is the pulveriter.
This I
is citner in our case a ball mill, mcstly ball mills, 20 i
t although I'm not sure, maybe soms. rollers, where tha s
lumps of coal of act. largor than one inch cize, cay, ere-literally pul-driacc down to t.h finanece of talcum powder 23 or something like that.
It is then picked up by an air i
stream and ignited in the furnace section of the boiler.
-25
~
_.w.,
-, w er - o,w a
-' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ~
l 8289 bw3 0
I wantad to ma.ce sura paop.'.e kncw that that was.
1 2
GAIPJ7d! RIGLER:
!!e w i.1 1 ; ;J:
a : an i?inute f
3 break.
j a
4 (Recesh) 251 5
6 7
8 0
10 i
11 12 13 t
14 15 i
~'
I6 i
1 17 i
i i
l 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i
i I
4 E
I
30 8290 EAK 1
3Y MR. BUCEMAmi:
2l Q
Mr. Singhcm, going back to casrgency sewer for a i
3 ~
minuto, is it possible for the Illuminating Cor.'ntny to l'
r-sell energenc'r pow.r to two entition at tha seme '4~?
3 A
Yes.
I Q
Let's 2seune you were cclling cnargency scuar to g
y accebody, called A, und then B as!:ed you for emergency power g
and you have the capacity to give it.
P.cu would ycu prica O
the emergener'.r power to B?
10 Eccentially on a first-come, first-carve bccic.
A The parcon requesting it first will get whatuver is the
..in 12 incremental cost of cupplying thct much additionci loed.
la.
If party B comes along cubsequently, requiring swargency pcwer, that would be a load on top of own load plus the first gg emercency.
15
~
~
l 1
- g That energy could cost more than the first incr3-3 mental emergency cost because you cro getting te lees officient l,a equipmont, Q
Are you familiar with the term " limited tema g
power?"
A Yes.
21
~
Q Whtt does that mean to you?
22 A
Limited tora power is an eatencion of tha short 4
23 harm power concept.
It is a monthly rata.
It has a nonthly demand charge.
The demand charge is norr than t
t
8291 EAX2 four-and-a-third' tinas tho vackly rato and the degr2e of rollability cr firmanacs of tha^
4" c van gract r than the ahors:
1 ter:1.
I 3
I
\\
t 1
O How is
.e energy priced?
i
',-v j
e 1
A T h e a t s r g' *'r ic priced in tha same.w wer.
It ic I
5
\\
cut-of pockat cocta plus a percontage.
. uight interject at this point, aithin classes of po:cr, yca 7rica the way we talked about whan you asked abcuu tuo anarconcies.
1 0
~
l In other uords, the guy there firct, if you have two people b'.lyir.g limitad tor:1, the fir:t one to take the service would have the IcNer incr: mental encrev costs.
11
'~
i However, if you are selling two differsn: ki:.d.s of carvico, it 1
12 i
{
ycu are celling li.'ited tern no one party uld chort terra to I
13 another, one of the benefits you get by -- yc,u get tuo bane' lit ;
14 by paying the higher demand charge for limitcd term cor rica.
15 1
You ge a greater degree of firmnena and you gsc lG a lower position in the peaking crtier for pricing.
17 Q
For the easrgy pricing?
18 i
A That is right, for the energy pricing.
.5 2 mtiec, 10 if you are selling short tart to party A and amargency to 20 party B, the person buying the short term geca the iv..er 21 energy rate.
22 O
Is that true even if he comes on after the 23 emergency customar?
24 A
Yes.
25 l
1
i' 8292 ZAK3 i
Q What does firm po';er mean to yea?
i f
I 2l A
Firm pcVer to ma n. s.ns a claas o0 amice having I
the sano reliability 2a the carvice te ccr own ensteners.
2 i
4 And if we for any reason at all were unabic to supply on--
I i
s total requiraments including that, that acuer vould be curtail!n
~
6 in the sama relative anoent as pcuer to cur o'in individual 1
i 7
custemors would be curtailed.
i 3
Q What periods of time do you have firm scuer g
contracts for?
[
i 10 A
We havc had occacion in the pact on eno inctance 8
1 to sell firm power and ancther to buy it.
i.
I o.
The sale was comething in axceca of a year.
The
?
13 purchase went for soveral yearc.
Thec.s ara generally of sub-stantially longer duration.
i,'
t 1
g Q
What is the method of calculating the prica der t
T o-firm pcwor? Or methods if there ara =cre than one?
t A
1_:,
We have run into two %inds of situations or i,
t you can run into twc kindc of situations.
One of them you 18 might be salling what we call average cystem capacity f
g f
g and it would carry with it average systea operating coste.
An alternative to that would be a cale c what ic ae:va-allu t
d called unit wwer where both the capital and oparating costa are associated with the capital and operating costa cf soma soecific unit.
.24
~
I And frequently the availability of pcuer maybe 2,o l
.<f l
i 8293 f
E1Li i dependent on the availability of that specific unit.
2; O
I am not sure what that maans.
Give na an 3l e::ampla?
i 4
A Much of last year, all of Acut year, I utan, CU:
5 was celling pcuer to Duquesne Light Ocmpany and to Toledo I
g Edicon spacifically from ocr Scat Lahe No. 5 unit.
The demand j
chargen associated with that scle were directiv rola+ad to the a
capital costs of the Eack Lake 5 nnit, and the denahd relatad 9
operating coats of the Eask Lake 5 unit.
la 13.d the energy chergcc *.rore directly related to the -
primarily to fuel costs of tha East Lake 5 unit 17 i
p; and some other minor items.
Whenevor the East Lake 5 nnit 13 was not in service, no power was delivered to Duquecne 14 or Toledo in respcct to that ::greement.
Q What happened if either of thoca purchasors 33 16 wished power at that time, even though East Lcke 5 was dea 7 l
p,.
They would have to make arrangementa under another A
agreement.
- g CHAIRMAN RIGLER
Now, the transactions ycu hava 79 just described, did that include an elemeus of profit?
,0 c
THE WITNESS:
YEs.
We were reinbursed for our 39 full fixed charges on an allocable portion of the Sask I,ake 22 5 unit.
23 BY MR. BUCHMANN:
g
-(
Q Define fixed charges so the pancl uill see what tht
,yus 1
.e y.--,
g.
0294 EAKS 1
profit is?
i
/
i n
2j A
This would be the return.eltmand, inecmo i
6 t
3!
tanca, preparty tanes, dapreciatica/ insuranco.
l 1
i i
4.'
O What do you nean by return in the atility senca I
5l that you used it?
/'.
t
/
6 A
In the utility conce, return is ccapriced
/
i 7
-- in the case of CEI, it is the return to -- cost elsmonts N,
8 of common equity, profarred cquity and bondo.
It includoc g
the,Icht component of tha capital ctructure.
10 0
And tha aquity?
gg A
Yos, it includes the equity, both equity i
12 components.
33 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
So the trancaction where yce 94 wore sellingthe East Lake potter tc Duquecne could be 15 recorded as profitable to CEI?
THE WITNESS:
YEs.
16 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Cocid you make a c:cmparison 1 1 ast year for your sales to tha C. tty of ClevaltrA r
g e
18 which I understood frca previous testimony tJent en during thic g
same year, is that correct?
20 x.
~
L I
MR. BUCEMANN:
Yes, cir.
Thev t.arcn't profitable.
21 We haven't been paid.
22
\\s CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Let's assume for ourtoscs of the 23
/
question, they wara paid at the billed rate.
\\
THE WITNESS:
For the voar 1973 it wculd have bacn 25 s
~
I I
8295 1
4 1
EAKG 1
profitable.
l t
t 2
CEAIRMAH RIGLER:
Uculd the nr: fit ca chace salec ;
~
t i
3 have been greator or lasser than the prcW '-
tha aclas
^-
4 to Duquacne, not in overcll terms, but ca a i
l
~
s 5
par dollar basic?
j G
THE WITNESS:
I think they would have been 7
less but I would have to check that.
g MR. LESSY:
I would like to interjact onc questien.,
9 Was the rate of the sale of East Lnka pcwcr to Duquesnc 10 the name as the rate to Toledo frem the East Lake unit?
gj THE WITNESS:
Yos.
Mot that there *.laran't acm 12 variatienc cauced by the -- by variations in their relttive i
13 take, but if they were both tching the meximum mount to j4 which they were entitled, the rate vac identical.
3Y MR. DUCID'.ANM:
I 15
+.
I Q
What do you mean by variations in their actual'
[
16 l
take.
What are you talking about there?
j 37 i
A Each had an entitlement of so many magnaatta l
g i
of that unit.
In fact, what they had was an entitlament g
for a percentage of the output of the unit, ;/nich us:.:
g represented by their megawatt entitlement dividad.by the capability of the unit.
All I ca trying to say 10 that if at semo point 23 the unit wac partially dorated -- say a fced I
24 water unit is out of service, a pulvericing mill is cur cf a,,
cervice, maybe you can get 75 parcent of the ctpability out of
3296 1
the unit.
3AK7 2
They would hn entitic6 tc 75 percent of their 3
bogey megattatt er their contrcct negatatus.
4 They don't hav2 to taka it.
Ia many, many 5
instances, through the year, Duquesno Light, for enample, S
would find that their incremental g recrating costs on cider 7
equipment in the Pittsburgh area, acar che coal fielda, G
was lower than the energy ccats, incranantal energy cc ts 0
from tho more efficient Esst Lcke unit but a unit hurning t.
10 higher cost coal.
3Y MR. EUCII? WIN -
12 Q
IIigher cost because et its distance froa the 13 supply?
A Its distance frcm the supcly and perhaps even the 34
, :-)
vintage of the long-term coal contreet for cocl supply.
Q u are saying that Telodo and Ducuacne had thE is same rate but the cost per unit cf.<ilo:tatt, cost per kilowatt l,e hour coming out of that would depend on the load factor of the-
,3 i
take.
Isn't that what you are anying in part?
g A
There is a
. formula for dividing the tchal fuel
.to cost of the unit between the parties entitled to take the output.
It ie not really load facter.
It is if c e carty 22 curtails, it has one Lapact.
It has an impact en the 23 average and incremontal heat rate of the unit.
So that his feel ccot por %ilotatt hcur becemos
' different than the f ucl eccts of the och2r particc.
i 8297 EAK3 Q
Mr. Eingh.m, you have described the CEI intar-t connections this ucrning, f
3 CHAIR:fAU RIGLER:
Can I interrupt hero.
I Jould
+
i like to sta.y on the Cleveland ccuparinon for
- 9. minuta.
t
'..rc
?
3 you sallin; power to Cleveland pursuant to e.n caerganen.r
{
i interconnection schedule?
-o 7
TEE WICMESS:
'iEu.
CHAIE4LM RICLER:
And would you tall us uhe"har i
l that'has the 48-hour provision which you r.sva vith Chio
)
PCwer?
4 g
i 11 TEE WITNESS:
That nartictler emergcacy achedulo i
i g
is in essenco, a congirmeraticn or ccuolidation of caveral schedules.
13 It has elementa, rate elemento of emeracacv, i
4 short-term and limited term.
It is an cutcr:Uth of cn cruer
(
4 e
from the Federal Pcwor Cereni.vsion which esacntially required i
la
-hat this be the rato.
It works this way.
If you ctert 33 I
with an assumption that thay had 'een sup71vinc all of l
c
.s/
2 1
their own requirements a':d taking nothing frore CEI cn.i have 18
,9 an emergency, for the first two days, 40 hourc, 02 uculd supply them at the standard emargency rete, out-o.* pocket d,3 costs plus a percantage.
_1 It'is not quite standard.
Those raten 22 We have with other people have floors in them which this r,.te 23 decan't.
24 U
CHAIR!GM RIGLER:
Ituculdbeclose.hethea.meraI
l 8298 1
that Ohic Power would pay during these first 40 hours4.62963e-4 days <br />0.0111 hours <br />6.613757e-5 weeks <br />1.522e-5 months <br />.
EAY.9 2
THE WITNESS:
It uculd be 2.dontical.
3 CHAIMIAN r.IGLER:
.M L ric h u.
.Jou nid in t
4 the case of Ohio Fouar af ter the <;0 hr.u.ru, thr 22W3 goas i
5 up dramatically, because you want to ' ave en inasati.'s r
G for Ohio Power tc bring its can systa.T back on che line?
7 THE WITNESS:
- Yes, g
CHAIRMPR RIGLER:
Does tha saras hold true 9
with the contract or rata schedule for the City of to Cleveland?
THE WITNESS:
Yec.
I tu no curc 7. Would charnctoriL t.i 2
it as a tremendous increace in the rate, but it is an increase.
,3 s
i 1
7,3 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Ther.3 is an increacc cfter 40 hatirn i
15 Cleveland stays on the emergency power service'!
t o-THE WITNESS:
All right.
Sutrting 'Jith the third day, ' he rate becomes equel to what the cho: t tarm c
7 E "*#
'I U
13 per kilowatt a week.
The current short terz rato is 50 cants g
a week.
40 After an additional four uecks, we are out to at essentially a month, 30 days, the rate increcuec again chrough the demand charge only, to what the limited ter rata c2 was in 1971 or '72.
l 23 This is $2.15 a kilowatt.
24 l
MR. EUCHMANN:
For uhtt period of time?
THE WITNESS:
Per month.
l l
l
8299 1
EAK10; BY MR. EUCICuTN:
2 Q
Is that th3 came ac your grasent liuitad torr.
I 3
rate?
i f
f 4
A Ho, the prosent limited term rcta is 32.73 a 3
kilowatt.
G CHAIItMAN RIGLER:
lienethelecs, there arc stop-ups 7
in the cost for the City of Cleveland the longer th3y stay n
on the e=crgency corvico.
9 THE WITNESS:
That is correct.
10 CEAIRMAN RIGLER:
'Jo b, yor indicaced that unhing
- g these factors inte censideration and taking into concideratien
~2 that Cleveland had been on the emergencv service for a long a
13 Period of time, that transcetion nonethelecc wac loso profitable to CEI than the cale to Duccenne or Toledo Edison?
T u-
,6 THE WITHESS:
The cale to Duqucsno and Toltdc was not a casual scle.
It was a recult of the joint
.-u planning of the CAPCO group.
When the sent Tanke unit unc ta 10 ed, it was anticipated that calec uculd be mnds e natru until such time as Toledo Udison -- the Davis-Eccac units
.0 y,
is ne f the unite wharc Toledo Eiiscn has subatantial 21 ownership _
22 23 It materially curtails the cucunt of power they are purchacing from other people.
These are planntd
.4 events.
The amargency power we ara selling to Cle/Oland --
2u_
1
8300 EAK11 1
let me backtrack.
,i';
They are plannad eventa.
Wa cra aainq
,j i
3 i
reimbursed full.v for the capital c:at: red op. ss atina.. er_nans a s i, 4
of the particular unit that is in.civcd.
The rencon I can't 5
nanwer your question cut is because I h.'.ve forgo: tan 1het the G
demand charge is en that cale.
7 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
From your previousancemr, the 8
profit was higher on the nales of peror from the L:.keshcra 9
plant to Toledo Edicon and Cuquccro --
10 THE WITNESS:
East Lake pla:it.
+
11 CHAIR'4AN RIGLER:
Ecck Lake.
-- cven though the risks are less to tho CEI system in that if thet plant gocc.
12 13 down, thel: obligation terminaten to tae other r.wo systcmc, 14 is that correct?
I I
l l
15 THE WITNESS:
That stattmait is ccrrect, that if thb
~
i IG plant is shut down, we have no obil3atic a.
Under the teras i
t i
17 of our emergency contract with Clevelant, if us have 13 emergencies of our own, we theoretical 2.y have ne c311gaticas 19 either.
20 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
'ica can ahed than ne cover 21 your own emergencies?
22 THE WITNESS:
Theoretically, wa can.
Practically 23 is a different matter.
3 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Is the Et.at Lake 911nt a 25 coal-fired plant?
I l
8301 EAK12 I
THE ~4ITNE3S:
Yes, itic.
l i
CHAIFl@.N RIGLER:
Frca ycur past m.ro ansvars, i.
t 3
should I anticipate tunn the prcj ect d cost of poucr cut I
~
of Davis -Eesse will be substantis.lly it:;/cr than tha occt out i
of the East Laka plcnt?
l O
i 8
0 THE WITNESS:
The energy relatzd costs will ba i
7 materially lcwer.
The capital related costs eill he 3
substantially higher.
The labor costs par kilowatt of D
capacity will undoubtadly ba icwer.
i 10 The problem is to dstcr:r. inn what is the
}
+
11 relative mi:: of the higher capital costs and the lovar energy 12 costs to determine what is tha overall impact.
}
i i
t 13 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Ens CEI nado such a crudy?
}
f 14 THE WITNESS:
YEs.
15 CHAI?l4AN RIGLER:
Nhat cc:1clusien did that 13 study cor.e to?
17 THE WITNES$2 We ccncluded that ever the icng IS run, we arc looking at the future, th.3t nuclear plc.nts would 19 have a lower total cost than would neu fossil plants.
20 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
What is tae site of the new
~
i t
i 21 Lakeshore unit that we have been discussing?
22 THE WITNESS:
East Lake u:2i t?
t i,
e t
~23 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
East Lske.
i I
l t
24 THE WITNESS: '650 megawatts.
That happens to be j
l 25 a CApCO unit.
An are all of the nuclear units involved in k
i e
i s
a
..-r r
e
8302 3A212 this proceeding.
- i
! j Duquecne Light Cc:apany o nc 202 nc;x.rx:tc,
i
- \\
o 3
has title actually.
4 CIIAIE!AU RIGLER:
Was thera nny di;r:ccion in i
t J
the CA?co group of Duquesne merely building a 20G nagawatt d
coal-fired plant in its own territcry?
2
/
THE WITNESS:
Thore waa much dis:uacion ir. the carl /
4 J
stagen of CAPCO as to how cunirship trould be h:andled.
The
)
cuquconc Light company had a chrong perforanco to have an W
c rnership interest in a pcuer plant sese.1 hor a whict. related 1; i -- unich when combined with their ouncichip of c::icting planto M
gave them an ownerchip of adequata capacit" to cupply their 13 own lead.
l
- 1. i.
They did not want to purchn:e penar
? hey did l
1.;
not decire to --
l to CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
I uns as:::.ng uhy they didn' t build a 200 MU coal-fired plant scraewhara in the Duqueenc
- g g service area.
What consideratiens 12d the:a no purcitare 79 a one-third interect approximately?
20 THE WITNESS:
A 200 maga:;a:t unit, capital costa 3;
per kilowatt would be significantly highzr than the per kilcunt 22 costa of a 650 megcwatt unit.
l u-CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Studiec ucro made to determina 1
~ hat?
,,w w,,.
THE WITNESS:
YEs.
This has beer. truc for many, L
i y
i 3303 EAKid many years.
As a matter of fact, in tha past, you found up until 1960, the capital ecsta por hilevatt fcr 1cr.7er planta 2
4 I
was in fact lecc than the capital co.:tc 200 hi10 watt of i
4 older plants which were smallar.
The econcay of scale
- 5 in fact, uas enough grantor th:n tho impact of inflation i
1 co that the cost por kilowatt want derno
,?
- /
Thct la ao longer truc.
j i
G BY MR. BUCED SJ:
i-e J
Q Mr. Singham, you said ycur istudies indicated thct l l
the long run costa of nuclear ecwor tc '.thich von ruforrai 10 l
showed that in the long run, it vould bu overtl1 cheapar I?.
than n. sail plants built neu.
4.
I n
A That is corract.
i
- i
(
.3 Q
Did the studies revecl what the relationship
?
{
- i3 would be to the fossil plants alread.y in c'
- isto;aca, if y:n I
w>
rsmcabar?
i
- i A
I had cecasica to do Ecne anclysis der cnother
?
I
- g
- purpose, where I was trying to relate a.s I recall th2 79 then-projected costs ci Davie-Cecce 1 with the - and I hava l
t 20 forgotten because it was a case that T on.obcdy,elae crcate d l
9.
the parametars -- it was maybe.the cost of or Achtab21a
.q station or our Avon Station or secething like that.
'The 23 conclusions I reached were that in the first fau voarc of 24 operatiori of thP. Dreis-Desse plant, the then-projccted ccato of it, the total annual cost would be greater per kilowatt
,ca l
U l
~
l 3304 EAK15 1 on Davis-Besso than it was on this cxicting CSI plant.
i i
2 But there vna one =ajor differsacs hetscon the t.:o plante.
l 3
Davic-3 esse wac largcly a capital intznsivo --
t 4
our whole businacs is c2pital intenciva but ralati' rely Davie-j i
3 Bessa was capital intensiva compared to thic fossil plant.
5 My recollection is that my calculations showed l
I 7
that 75 porcent of the annual cost of Davis-32 sac uore fi::cd 3
charges and 25 percent uac operating expensec, i
g The fossil plant was not quits but almost the to reverne, 75 parcent cporating enpannea and 25 parcent fi 2d j
gg chargec.
12 It is on operating expensou that inflation t
i 13 operates and that four or five or six years out into the
- 4 future, those total cost lines uculd crosc a..d tha nucicar plant from then on would have a lcwer total cost than an 10 i
iG eainting fossil plant.
i I,
1,,
With the massive run-up in fcscil fuel ecsts in i
l 1974, that period of cross-over uould have been advanced l
gg I
gg and in fact, had Davis-Bease been availt.ble, becn reached j
in its first year.
20 DY MR. BUCH21AITN:
g O
22 Y u described this c6rning, C3I's inte1 connections with its neigibors.
Each of the nolghbcra wth which CEI is interconnected are interconnected in their turn to one or more others, are they not?
7 8305
}
&U16 i A
That is correct.
2 Q
And as an enemple, Chic Pcwa:: is intarcounceted 3
uith Appalachian, I suppose.
Do you Arcu?
.i A
Appalachicn Power Company, yea, nay ro part 5
of the same systen.
G Q
Uhnn you at the Illt::ain?. ting Cc 7pany f
wish to purchase pcuar under any of the vario :n cont actue1
- 3 arrangements you have decerihed and you go to Chio Pcuer 9
and find that Ohio Pctier has none availsle, do yon then
..)
go to the perscnc in the nont ring cut, so to c33th, interconnected with Ohic Power or what do you do?
4 'l t
12 A
No, we ask and as a ns.tter of fact, I cupc0t 3
Ohio Ecuer will voluntaar to go bc',nd.
They uill do the r
- ,3 checking for us with the synteras, adfibional.2yctama "ith 93 whom they are interconnected, with when we are not inter-1G connected.
I 1a O
Why do you de it that way?
A Industry evstca.
We deal with th folk 73 10 who ve are interconnected with.
ile have no righta to anyhedy clae's system.
So those arrangements chve to be mado g
by others.
g, Q
One = crc question, Ifr. 3inghcm.
Mhen g
I l you were responding to a qucation frca the Chai man, you
__.ca y
said that theoretically if you had cn emerc.encu on.v.our syst m, i
you could terminate service to the City of Cleveland.
(
l' G306 EAK17'1 Why did you use the word theoretically?
-^
A Ac c practicci matter, ve could2't livo i
3 with the rsaction that woeld cc:ur if tro were to disconnset i
4 the City of Cleveland at the prannnu tite.
e
~
We are procently supplying noughly 30 0
percent of their regaircuents.
Thia meanc that ua cli.her 7
l interrupt 80 percent of their custeners or they stop pumping B
water which will ultimatsly reflect probably en 100 percent 9
cf the residsnts of Clevaland.
l t
to Frcs a public relations etandpd;1t, a politi-11 cal standpoint, anyway you vant to 100% at it,'.dlic vould (2
without questica, reflect advercely on CEI.
{
13 Q
Indeed the water pumping of the City of Clevolend I
14 servec far more than the City of Cicveland, doca is not?
15 A
yea, but the water system which m don't wait 16 ao ga'. into, is more ccmplex, too, and CSI supplico co c 1
17 of.it.
I l
13 O
Some of the pumping pcwor?
i 19 A
Soma of the pumping po:mr.
I can 't tell you 20 literally who is racponcible for what water.
23 MR. BUCEMANN:
Thank you, your Ecucr.
I hava 22 ;
nothing further.
23 CIIAIRMAN RIGLER:
On the Zant I.ake plant acles of y
power to Duquesno and Toledo, how arc transmission chargen i
15 bandled on those cales?
i I.
d
8307 l
EAK13 ;
MR. BUCHEY.U:
Would you read the ic:;t part of 2
that?
I 3
(The reportar rec.d En record cc raquentad. )
i 4
'2HE WITNECS:
There are no specific chargas
{
3 for transmission.
Ecch of the CAPCO cor. panics had t
4 3
contributad to the conchruction of trnasmission, of n V t ansmiccion facilitico that enabled CM/CO ';o cat off the t
i 3
ground.
So that they mMe their cent-ibutione baced on lines g
that : cay have been added in a msher of diffsront placsc.
\\
e.)
CHAIPliAN RIGL22:
? art ofthe oc or would fic1 fron l
i 33 the East Lake plant over the linea of Chic Edison, if, in fc0t,l.
y power flow worked that particular way, is that correct?
?
1
, a,,
' lou had doccribed the St.ct earlicr that yo's can' t g
really trace the pcwor ficw?
THE WITNESS:
Soms of it would certainly go through.
,.u i
the Ohio Edison cystem.
As a matter c..' fact, thera cre C.sPCC
..t) linea in the Ohio Edison cyatom.
One of the Scnous Star l
I lines has been designated a CAPCO line.
13 CHAIR *4AN RIGLER:
But Ohio Edison doecn't receive g
g any compensation for the use of italines or the CAPCC linas in its territory to ecver the sale of power frcm the Eaut J,
Lake plant into the Duquesne systc=?
THE WITNESS:
No specific con'ribution for
=
that specific tranamiasien or trr.ncacti.oa.
\\
2S ll -
l
8308 EAFl? I 3Y MR. DUCI31ANU:
i 3
Q That prompta ma to ask senething.
Uhen thoso t
i j;
sales arc taking place, uculd it he corrset that n ma of r
that power would ficw out the eastern and Od your cySten, 3
i through PEHELEC and down to Duqua:no?
l I
A It vill ficw through c11 of the 7
interconnections.
3 0
Pm;ELEC docan't collect any:hing fron Dr.queenc?
1 A
That ic 70rrect.
b3 CIlhIDiAN RIGL3R:
Shaff?
11 MR. R3YNOLDS:
Mr. Chairman, I guara just as a natter of record, we ought to getthe order curaight as to tito 23 is going to go fonrard with crocc-exem'.natiou, whether the 14 cther Applicants would wait --
1S CTAIRMAN RICLER:
I would prefer ::o chva all Of i
10 the Applicants at onco.
I' MR. REYNOLDS:
I h2Ve no further mesottions of this l
t I
l 18 l witncsc, but sinca thic iG * % t Oitncsc the Applicants 10 have, I want to make it clear the order ice ar2 going in.
2)
CEAIRMAN RICLER:
You cro correct in the acausption Et that I vill taka the other Applicants rcxt.
ii E. l MR. REYNOLD3:
Ue 17111 make en effort in avary caca 23 to consolidate the interrogation of the Applicanto through 26 singlo counsel and no more than two, if that should ba i
25 -
necessary.
But I was trying to get the ordar otraight.
I t
l l
l 8309 EAK20 t don't have any furthor questiona on behalf of other
.2 App'icants of this witnans.
9 l
3 CHAIRMAN 2IGLEn:
Proc?dtrall:7, while ve are 4
on this point, I will call on the Einff first ordinurily, 3
and then Justice and then the City.
o But I uant the croaa-e::anination consolidated to 7
the maximum e:: tant possible which may maan in Ocm3 cases, a
you may wish to rotate tha order eT.ong yourceivca c.s to who 9
would play the lead rols to that the b2;-dau doe.in't cluays fal2 10 on Mr. Lassy.
77 Maybe the City and Stuff and Juntico ca.n discucs 12 this among themselves.
13 VOIR DIRE ELVIINATIO!1
- 4 BY MR, LESSY
1S Q
Did you bass your tcctimony today on your 16 CXPerience with the CEI, your knoviledge acquired while g
working at CEI, your skill and aducatione.1 background and gg degrees ycu outlined first thing this norning; A
Yes.
gg MR. LESSY:
I would liho the witnacc excused,
,c0 CHAIRMid{ RIGLER:
You may leave the stand for g
a minute.
23 (Witncsc temporarily e7.cused.)
MR. LESSY:
I am starting, Mr. Chairman, with the assumption that Mr. Dinghan is a witness en behalf of the
l 3310 EAK21 1
Cleveland 21ectric Illumirz. ting Ccepany and 2
Federal Rule 702, the Advisory Ccnmittee's note:3 provide, 3
"T.milecly the e:: pert is vict:cd non in the anrrcu conca but as i
4 a person qualified b:7 kno:rledge, nhill, expericace, training 1
3 or educatica."
13 The S-aff ;ocid submit that the witnacs is 7
an expert uitnces on behalf of the Cle;rciand Electric 3
Illuminating Company.
Furthor, I refer the Board to tha 9
prehearing conferenco dated April 21, l.975, che tranceript page.
i to 1028, specifically lines 22 through 15, whers the Chr.irman j
i asked me uith respcet to expert testimony which hr.d to ha l
12 filed, "traat in the technical arac. Ue arn in?"
I an:Ucred, at lines 8, " Engineering and economics, peror supply g
y engineering."
15 The Chaircan said at line 10, "Dy engineering, 16 tehat sort' of testhaeny do you anticipate. "
At lines 12 thr5t;19 21 I cutlined a ravicw of agrranants.
At lines 22 M ough o
25, I said, "So to some e::tont, i:ho tentimony is going IG gg to be involved withthe language of the industry, 130 kilovolts, transmiccion lines, gancratinc ca7acity, et I
&O cetera.
g' That takec some time to cigcat."
l g
I :nggest that lir. Sizqhart.'s icoticony is in the nature of oxpert tsstinony and ths.t we arrivo at c a
beneficial tina when he can be brcught bach for creca-(
examination after the parties have had opportunity to read the i
3311 EAK22 testimony as if it wara filed in advanca in writing.
2 Aa to the dato or tir.cc uhan he ahtui.d 50 3
brought bach, I would lanvc t'.at to tha conscanna of tha 1
other partica cnd the Sonrd.
5 I think b.1ced on the nature of hi.; %:tiiton-1 0
today, that i:rmed14to cross-e w aination shcudl not ba l
7 required, especially in light of the Board's cinch prdtaaring i
l g
conference order that required thct export.
tacti:cny 9
be filed in advance in writing.
I think the encet langugae I
10 was ' Applicants chall file the direct urittaa tecatimeny of j
i 33 their expert witnoesen no later than October
.'3, 1075."
12 I think overyone vill ccal?. at the Apri.' 21, '75 la,,
prehearing conference there wea a great Encunt of diacuaricn g
as to who an c:cpert was and una there a diffe.rence betveca
- ~
15 Be that e.c it may, it would ba banaficial to kring him back, both to the parties and the Board.
I em afraid we have a fair amount of cross -
examination for this witnocs, ccealtino for che S taf f.
19 20 witness' testimony would claccify Lin as a CAPCO enpert witness.
I agroe with Mr. Lesny's dc finition of encert.
In large part, he is a CEI c:rpert.
He drew a nt=aber of inferences evith respect to
- rate design, itaterconnections, and use of benefits of interconnections, the technology of power flowc, both inside I
r m
I 8312 l
i l
EAK23 1 and outside of CEI.
I think ha is an onpert and theca are in- !
l 2
Gerences drawn by an czpert and praparly ec, notrith-i 3
standing the fact that the witnssa illustrched
'J-and -justified hic inscrescac with f actual c7amplea drawn I
1 5
from his experiencas.
0 It.is proper fcr an ex?crt nad it is the proferable, i
7 way for an expert to tectify.
We would cuggest at that point j
's 3
that sinca Mr. 3ingham ic going to be appearing bafora I
0 us again, and tectifying strictly with racpcat to factual i
f f
to mattarc, it might ba approprieto to defur hia crosa-t 11 examination alues* the Applicant.; vill brinJ r.im back anyvay ii 12 and have an opportunity ct that hina ta croco-e;:raino
(
i 13 hhn with respect to his testi=0ny todar.
l 4
14 CHAIPJUiN RIGLER:
Had you intended to bring Mr.
i
+
i 15 Einghs2 bach?
IG MR. BUCEMANN:
Yec, sir, but for diffc: cut purpasca.i i
17 You will note I did not get into with ifr. Binghan, tha i
i, 13 specific relationships of the ccapany with thu City of 19 Cleveland and similar probicac.
20 I think the only time it cana in was on intcrreg&-.
1 21 tion frca the panel.
Ha is listed au one of cur fact 22 witnesses.
It trac my intention tc. bring him bach on tho 23 specific CEI case, what I call the COI caso.
I offered him y
today, as I said at the beginning, because it cacned to k
25 me that it would be helpful to hcve at the outcat here and i.
8313 EAX %
probably it wocid havo been more helpful to have at tha
,i cutcet of the ' thole hearing, but this waa t30 first cppcrtenity 1
i I had to dc it, ccmo explanation of cha cyacifica of tho l
1 i
J workings of an electric system.
4 3 ul Ido nct think I have -- and I uill agree that a
3 Mr. Binghan la an a;: pert.
Ha was not afforod haro as
{
r an export.
Unicas I clipped and I did..'t hear anyhedy
{
i 3
making many objections, I did not ack questions other than i
i l
3 questions ralated to his own perrnal, cpecific knowledge of
- ,3 tho CEI nycten and its relationchip uibh the poop,%.
l I did not ask for his opinion or for him to I
draw inforences.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
What Mr. 2j ahufelt'; ccaition w
in shoold be placed on tha recced ne::t.
3; MR. HJ"J.JTELT :
I join in t'to.~otionc of the t
, o. I Staff for the sene reasons expressed by Mr. L mmr and tir.
i, Charno.
I state at this point, the City,tculd be pre' -dic :d 1
p, if it had to go ahead and attempt to conduct cross-g exanination on what I believe is exper-testinony, vi2 cut having -the benefit thz.t Applicants ha 7e had to esviou cc.r g
expert testincny.
,u,.
MR. BUC3MANN:
tinat I ?.m no': curo of is if I a.7.
c, l
correct, and this is a fact witness, I hear that there ic 20 lots of crous-examination.
About what?
Whather a pulveriner was shown on the pian or whether.CEI has tha interconns=tions
_a>
i and contrac 0?
Ualens they-are trfing to adduco expert
i 8314 1
EMIS 1 testimony, I have a little trcuble kncving uhat we are 2-talking abcut.
3 CHAITdW1 RIGLER:
I d i.18 t think 'tha objecticn I
i posed under Rulo 703 is ucll-fo'nded.
It ecca: to no i
1 3
i that any witness called by a ce".gany, 22 it the precident i
0 of the company cr tha gc= oral counsel or ene c:.' their
.i 7
cngineera, is going to have ccientific or technical knowledge.5 3
Otherwice, ha rouldn't be callud as a fact witnacs.}
I 3
'r:at hardlj uill make each of thesa 1"Sividu21a :n
(
t i
D expert.
I must say I do think the to.cti= cay Ec3 linited to facts related to CEI.
t 12 Und it not been, ve vere prepared to unstnin 1:1 objections.
On the other hand, I am curprisad to ho r 1.1 that Mr. Dingham intenda to return.
I had not reviswad the 4
in witness list recotly to catch the fact voc intended to ca'?
6 16 him in two capacities.
^^
1" That de_scs disturb me.
10 MR. REYNOLDS:
If I could speak to that, I bslieva is when we vere outlining the nal.ura of the caso, or the order of 20 the casa, back on April 5, I indicated that'che citneeses pj that vare going to be testifying in this gener:1 6
introductory matter might bo called back in their prcper 3
order when ue got to the casa of the ccmpany he happnes to 23 be associated with.
. j' A-CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
I hadn't recliced it was a.d firm, 4
a
/
1 I
t f
10 j
t
I i
2315 EAK261 a ccmmitment.
It ut.a for the orderly prcgrena i
f 3
of things.
CEI's fact caso is one achsdulsd to follou the j
t 4
fact cases of the other P.pplicant::.
It ironld ha =cro 3
appropriate we felt, to wait on the direct intarregation 6
of Mr. Bingham that v.Gd fccus on that aspect of thic cs.ca 7
and to bring him in for the purposas ita indicated today, l
i 3
as e.n introduction to the Applicants' cane and that is the I
g way we have structured the enamination todav.
i 10 It has been carefully linitse no we do not gat into.i
- g an arca wa think is more approp
- :iately dealt with when we have !
1 12_
the CEI witnessen "oforo the Board.
c i
t 3
CHAIRDli RIGLER:
The probLac is that the s
g4 Board accepted Mr. Buchmann's invitation to explore questiona I
10 with the witness as they cane uo.
It has alrv.dv beca
\\
16 indiented by Mr. Buchmann that ae ainy have crose into senc -
l.,
of the areas rewrved for latar cramination.
e ia MR. BUClitiTORI:
I have no objection to re2crvi20 1
19 the croac-cramination to a later time or going into it now.
20 Whichever the panel pleasos.
The only thinJ you touched on
~1 which I didn't have was the question of tha relaticuchip of the C3I, Muny rate to the other rates.
That was the oniv subject I trould have avealf 23 l
reserved for latar en.
1 24 1
1 CHAIRHTei RIGLOR:
I am leaning againct the o
i J
+,.v*
Il 3315 l
i EAK271j oppcaiticn partica with respect to ^^ ~r* natura of i
r 84 s
2 li his testimeny.
Ticuover, I En cympathchic to : heir poir.t i
3I shout orajudica if they have to creau 2:.:anina :112.r.nd icu o
t t
4
-P !!
got to bring him back beyond th2t.
It camw tha could creato problems for the.r..
t i
G I don't think crderlu..nreca3.ure ueuld ha cerved by l,
7 having th u croca-crainina his only on tha liuitid amennu of I
C" his testimony and then havo 'rou brinc. :.lin hack and o.erhapa i
1 0
oven inadvertently r.ohubilite.to hin tich rocpecc to that j
10" crocc-e::eninction.
i
.i k
t IT l'R. BUCITaiM:
I can rahabilitato him hers on rcdiroc^d l
!2 if there is any nacd, although I do not e::pech there to ha e
{
l 13' need.
I will limit his participation when ha c5 soc be.ck, 14 if you uould like to do that.
I must confee.:, I!r. '.igler. I i
I ti; dr.n't fasl strongly about thic.
j 10' CHAIRNMI RIGLZR: '."iro you propered to Jo ahsad? -
17 Are you prepared to go ahead and finiah Mr. aingb2 'c i
18 toctimony?
I i
l is I1R. BUCSMA!E4:
Frcnkly, I aI2 not.
I think the.y t
1 so ccn go forwcrd.
But if they wish to uait ai:: wesha,.':
I 31 object but I am not going to try to take an uppuc.1 on thic..
32 CHAI.t:GH RIGL3R:
I think I will ccafer with 23 my colleagues on this.
We will take fiva minutes, (Recoca.)
aa, i
t
.a
~c
r G317 C1mIRMAN ?.IGL3R: Tha Board h2s hcd an cp?crtunity 1
S31 f
to concer with raspact :: the 702 ebjs tion,. chinh /c all bwl o
ol agree that that cannet ba sustainad.
I Cn balance, we era cor.sitive ca the point of 4
2 prejudice,. if you have to crcsa-2::amina hb piccaraal.
g We think you are entitled to have his completa saatim:ny, O
before yot begin the crce:-crer.d.natica, so Qc roard is 7
not goint to rcquiro sny of the three oppositica parties g
to corananca cross-e::arination at this ti:ce.
g On the ether hand. it is also our obs.erv tion 10 that a. lot of the tcotimony is noncontrovarsini.
Nihhout trying to push you into it, if it is possible to b? gin 1.,,
crcss-examination and any party dhsiren to dc co, we would f
,3 i
Probably save tirte that we'a.
l r
4 *W I will give the three pcrtiec c mo: cent to confer and see if you can use the 20 min'atec today.
If you don't want to, wa will not mtus you.
(Staff, Departnantof Justice and City of Cicvoland conferring. )
19 i
CHAIRIUW RIGIER:
Let's go en the record, 20 I 'chould announce we have had discussica cmeng the perties, and we have decided to defer cross-e:mninatien of Mr. Singham,!
unless his fiill e::aminction is ceanicte.
23 MR. BUCHIGN:
I don't rocamter whether your 24 RULING ON THE. notion was on the record or off.
25-t 4
n + =o w w
-~e
-.sm-
i 0318 i
I CEuat!M nI3L22:
"7he notier. "nc first to' bt12 treat his untira tantincny as ex';ert tactirteny,
- I That was denied.
The r?.otien furthsr w.s to extend l
A I
the tino for cross-exanination an.1 f.ut '.m.3 g'. cn.;cd,
t 3
l IIR. EYNOLDS:
Turaing to of.har
- r.ttere, I l
e 1
3 I
'j Want to state on the record that tha Appliennt:.: huvo 6
~ ly made the decision with recpect to the tastinbnv earlier filer 1 by Mr. Oeen Iann en behalf of all of the Ipolicanta, 4
l 4
3 that it new appaarc there is no need to go through hie I
I M
tes ;tmeny and to intrcduce that into eviden.:a.
i Il i
The decision is largely br. sed on the " cat 12 that, in effect his direct testirror.y has airscdy been 1,'
i covered very thoroughly in the direct und crens-enacinati:n a
t i
14
[
of nne witnesses that have been prestnued by the other
)
t
,e l
parties.
l' i
j i
23 j
j In order to enpedite t' Tis htaring, to ennaervo 17 both the time and avoid duplication of the raccrd we have 13 decided not to proceed 1.'ith Mr. Cunn Ien: as a witaeus.
i M
That means we will start with Mr. Sicn=2r en l
20 Monday, th 26th, and he will bc followed 'y Mr. Firechonc r
j s
i e
21 and I would say that e.he only other egianatien I nead to I
I, 22 give is that I have been advised by Mr., Olds that it is j
23 impossible, because of his schedule tc commence the Duquesne 24 Light case before the 29th.
(
j E5 If we should, by enance, finich with l
I l
L
.s.*,mer--m
,-a--%e
=
f 8319 b'.e 3 Slemmer and Mr. Firastona short of the thras days I
thare is that scheduling preblem, 7
I den: 3 anticipata to vill ca d::12 cc and l
e J
~l I have allotted tha three de.: for th:.ca tuo witnasacs.,
4 !-
If thay should spill to the U% we c:m coctmaca 5
i on the 4th of Mcy with the Duquenna Light ca. c.
ID.ile I
,a have the floor I would also like to mtggest that tha 7
I motiens that have bean filed by the applicents he respondad 3
to in accordanca with the time ;equirament under the rules.
9 We ran into seme difficulty uith respect to service 10 t
1 and getting the material delivered by hand.
j It In light of that, it s:culd seem to ma Igpropriate i
12 that.the procedural P.ime limit theb in ecnnerr.placed for 7
i 13 service by mail as oppcced to by hand would be appropriato
}
i 14 j
in the cipcumsgances.
But a suggestion I believe made off the ra:Ord i
~
13 f
of 30 dayr by the Dspartment would give the Departnut 8,
17
.twice as many days to respond as Applicanto had to prepare 18 the motion.
l 19 The 15 days the Applicants had for the rocass j
20 l
was interrupted by a religious holidt.y of four daya, plus the:
i 21 i
i 4
additional task of preparing the diri.ct cune.
22 i
l It seems the 30-day suggestionis a bit inequitable 23 under the circumstances.
24
(
CHAIRMAM RIGLER:
On the otter hand, the days j
23 t
1 1
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p.
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representing t.e star,:. c r.o. L,a. t'.G Me 3..x/;
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-w gg the TippliCantS h s. l to 11 IA.* Cn, I'n CO d GC P L G.
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.come Out.
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N 16
!.q feel that 30 days '..'ould he, if limitad, an apprt.71
- e
.t
/
tim of responce for the six. m: ions prsr. area liy
.1 '
I, dif forerst Applicants and all of ir.e.:.cp.'.ic.n= m;.'.o c.;;. ug
.e 4.
. aan.sct a~ the case.
Tah'/ *-
a '..; m s Tne" oc to every o" law and into da lac.s qui-a a::tuncive.iy.
g 1
I
.,.. is no'ng to bn a ec=:p:n.on.::x3
,c A
- t. i n.<
2.
- n. >
job briefing then, and we will be tied rp in the he-ring, l
,3 I,
presunably, en a full-time basis uttnea new and 2a time j
4 t.
we have to file our cne.:cra.
.e, J.
JJ l
i i
22 i!
22*2 2
Oh II 1
It is a:cf undorctancing, :nd I hcve haan.2dviced'i t
i.
thct : the city joinc ra in this : g:a.tt nr.S W.nt 'ie: OtsdZ I
3[
has n'o Op ocitica %c tha rcqvect far IG :3270
-.n ':-/cich to
~
4I raspo:,d Sc Applic:entz' nation to dicniin.
- )*
C3M?CD FIGLEn:
- c.'= m. :o:. o :=1..c 30 32. s, and G'
I23. Epynolds, yourc is eight dr.yn, c::: c;t for th: 2tnfi,
'c.ich gets 13.
i a
Mn. PJ.:WCC&;
Utticca nannyenant of cho st:ff is o
still hc?. ding to one 1 cok on cay hind of c:2. ncica, th2'. I
. n.
- h. old to the ona ; Och,1:hich unc :nic.,a.ni nd fen,mr aco:in.
4 let :aa udd, I uould ho uilling to en ccco.acdation j 11 t
6 12 to the extent we could gr.t reapencoc ont 3.t tha otbe.1 pa:Mita,j I
13 to epacify notions pricr to the tin: that tio cace of v.n.:
i I
g
?coplicant is being presented.
g Fcr c:nnplo, the Clevoland.7100trict.1 Il".trinching 4
- 6. -
Com r.y i= schuduled to go on far dow chu
- cad, C;2 the oder hand, Dcqucano Id.sht cc7pany ic ::chedulet v.o go c,n 1
Nz.y. 3, and Ohio Edicon and Pctr.sylvcnit. Power Muy 10th.-
g i
with Tolede Edicen fellowing cer.a tina the ucch of aie lhh,
g 1
ao If rse could have a atagesred cahedrJ.c whi.:h usuld enable the raspenace to be nada.'ithin c. ti s fran.: so i
3f e
that we can got rulings en cho notionn erior to tha titr.c 22 that the casca are put on, I would ho raceptive to that hind
~,
4A of ctaggered scheduls, t
3 I really do have a let of difficulty with a 30-dcy 1
45 I
4 3
.t
l i
4 n.-a. 3 4
k 1
t h 2
. u-c::tuncien Luforo ancwaring all of the papera ani.' havina un pro <: cad de u the - ond with our enSire :aca c.s-r. gcc0. pc.tica of 2.t.atora wa hbar anything.
4
, r.., c.
.m...w. w n,.
.v.,,
,,,,, u..u.,,.. :.3...,. a, -
..a
,. s 1.
. ~
1a v.,
w t
a.
c:s beh21f of c11 Lpplicants to di.cnic.: all nllege.ticna 1 c':
i a*
in that ataggernd schodule.
7 MR. K3iTORS:
I c;:ggect that Uculd be the firch s"
cno appropriately.
It como to re -~
i 9
CHAIPD.II 9I/522:
Thnt ic the noot longthy.
i
.)
1 MR, 23!UOLDS:
If the othcr pe.rbic0 cannot gravail ;
i 1
cn that motion, then no can : vo av2:.;'bcdy a Act of ti' a and i
i offort in this cac;c..
That is cbvicacly cnc of the intonts i
4 I3 I
ndarlyingthamoticasnndconciatantwiththepublicinteract{.
i
'.3 the Chcirman hco indics.ted ho 10 mest intorcctod in er vary i
i 15 intercated in.
16 CHAIRIT1 RIGL22:
In crder c0 prevcil en th it i
i 17 roti.cn, their burden would ha to shou t?mt ons single f
I a
I c.11egation 1:t vichic.
Is that corra=t?
1 19 l
I That would defcat the meticn, uculdn't it?
3 20 ER. ROL.TCLOS:
That one cingle cliogatica -~
21 CHAIN'Cai RIGLEn:
Is v.*cbic.
22 MR. REYNOLD3:
Depending on hou us d2fino viabic.
23 I atn not curs what you rean by viabic.
If you cra saying if 24 they could demonstrate that undar the applicable standard 25 that thoro is an allegation uhich tha ovidence cufficiently I
a
i, S324 wh.,.
i i
shou:3 both' ' oets t'cc ctandard radar the So0tica 105 ---- coetc
~
tha atandard '2ndar section 105 (c) ';ot c.a te its inmnsistacy I
with tho entitzust 17.ra :r.nd ca to iba :s1rci:nchip t:
i t'
activiti.ca tnCc:: tha nuciccJ' "
'-m=c, then, yem that Sculd f
L be corroct.
1 1
arcat I si seggcoting., Iir. chnirzan, in.2.2 thoro la l.
but one allegatien thct is Ic'2h in thic cacc, iu order for
,,o it to ha vichla, ac ye.u cuggcat, it uculd ha.vo to ca2t the criteria ti;ct is cat forth cador Sectica 105 {ct,,
'2 hat ucu?.d 1,
s hO t=:s if thcro wa.m t*40 or throa.
3:
y CJT:,IRGW HCIER:
Ziou chaut the tactirany of Mr.
t
-t ' l Lyren that the offer to call po'.~er frem the nec.1.ur init:
2 tu
- in quection va:s basca en tha municipality's agrer.aat not
.,n s to rosell that power?
vn MR. EYSOLDS:
A s I sr.y -
E MR. Pr.RI:
Mr. Chai:. nan, utny we hava c newnt tc con far?
MR. L2:SSY:
I want to actc th:.t the principal v,
Detpsanne witness van It:. McCabe, who toctified on ti= Bth I haven't acon the motions todcy beca m they of Decerbar.
85 I
waro delivered ac wo wrat into the ho'1 ring.
- r.
But to suggoct that un thould filo and ancVer j
e.,
within the next four or fivo days beforo Ductocno ctorte l
its enco is outrageous.
26 MR. EYMcLDS:
I thought you caid w could confor, y
y r -~
a a
i
.l
\\
a,2a-ea en 4 i
i and I ranliss at*J.^tthine clirted by r.o.
f L
C3.~TCGM RIG'.*/R:
Uc will ina that rend h: h co a
s
.t vou.
3!
i (The raportar rcad tha racerd.ta rc.q"20ched..)
i
-)
i IG.. PEEdCLLS I think Wat tih20 I c2 suggestir.g 3
ia that ona, I don't think that tito tin 2 li:niSc irpecad by 7
tha rules are cc.tregcouc.
h rcles cbvict: Fly, have contsm~
3 plated a chcrt perica of tims fer rac;onding to :=,tions.
9 I suggaat that thaec m tdens are precise.ly the 1,
4 l hi:sd of moticas that do fit wit'ain thi rules.
I tr.nct say 1
i that I ca not tco r.oracaded by tha fact that becmna the: 0 i
are ai: er acven notienn, that that chotla prolong the tima i
"g i
poriod.
t=r Ue ara all 1s:riers, cad 7a nra in nr. catitrust k.')
I litigaticn.
It densn't matter hc. !=my ntatienc ora carvad l
p
.st whs.tover time.
It scar.s the rules rioul!. apply and chculd i.
apply equally, honavtr, whctaticr the volt.:no ar.d whatever tho 4
...a nrsener.
I have cuggested the.t I ar2 t-illing to an acc=nio-1 00
~
dation with respcot to chaggo:~ad raspcasas in order to have
'm acme ruling from the Board, if ponsible, before each of
- 4
"~
the respective Applicant.~ stert their casm. en the cpecific -
motions that have baan filed by each of the Appli::a:its, t ich "a
-l.
wuld naan a ruling 1:i the order that va have schsdelad those
'r' l cases to be presented.
da
,I 1
- ~ _
?
{
3326 I
ch 4 In recpenue to the Chsir:nn'a question, I feel j
'~
that the motion to he damit with apprcyricholy firrt in
.o "l
2rgp).icants' y r.: oral cotion to di niac c11 cf the clicgatienc, e
I and I venld, in n re apccific racyana to dia g;t:ctica of tho Chairman es to Mr. Lyren'c testW ony, Z.r010.6 ag.ran that if I.
the ", card ucrc catisfiad that tactime:.y by I'.r. Rrca did, 7
- 12. fact, protm what tha chairran hac ch::.ractoriced or l
4 3
i cuggested thnt it mic.ht chcu,- if in viewinn. hic tc ath::;n'r i
3 1
1 cr.d the croca-crarinatic.n,' the rears ccm:?. to the cc:01unica i.
1 5
i
)
i d?.t that tauthon?_.?.~. mc 2 cituation inconcirtt;nt with thc i,
I i
i i
entitruct lauc tndar Section 105(0) nnd, in :Gdition, is l
I caticfied that the naturo of the inconcict:mcy is such a to d
- ws.crant the reliof that tha other ciGo hac recNactnd in ths l
forn of licenas conditionc, tint that t/culd then hc mi i
I G
cppropriata ba:Jia for the Board co deny tha ration.
e3 I think chart of Sat it would ba ine.ypropristc '
I i
FI for the Board to rest a dani.J. of tho ::.otien on a. aingle is al.logetion, ov.tn if it uhould dots.'.nino t! st thct -- by e.
10 preponderance of ths evidenco the tantirny of In:
- 9fran, j
casuning that to be the allegaticn choved = inconcints.ncy 20 21
'i with tho antitrust laws.
22 I think it is also essentih2: for tho other sien 23 to prove its cane, and hths Doerd is nou citting c.c the trier
' ?/:
.of fact ed, therefore,. in tt pocition to maho a &:tc.inination.
25 I,,
It !.s required to nrow its caco fullv. hv chouine not only
.I, I
11
W t.
d, 3_9.,
ch (
I that thora ic un incenciatencr 12 indcad tiref.:en c;.ow that, 4).
but that the n2 tera of tha inconsictancy is 0.tch 7.c to end 32
- .v.rrant the ralief that hnc busn rcccected i'. thic prccceding.
- ,d o
1 e
5 G
J 1
0 9
10 11 I
- l $
on
,g 1
15 TG 17 to I
19 21 i
t i
e 25 I
i i
i i
[
i
f a
1 3328 1
f.
f
.s, na 1
CHAIFJtAN RIGLER:
I might dicagr c wi b vou 03 tc bw.
i f
2 a matter of law as to the relacienship bar ? u c.iu 20110'.
t 3
and the naturo of t*:a inconsistsnce.
j e
4 I would want to think thout hnt It a2cr.:
5 diffarant standards mcy have bosn stated en tnat in the j
.i 6
Waterford case, for a::a:r.ple.
i 7
The ronrd may have tahan tha 5 preach to loch first t
e i
i O
if there is an inconsistancy relating to cchivities undar I
i o
the license,.
Having unda that data.minalien we f ashica l
10 the relief as an inapproprints :2medy.which strihen j
if r.e cs a somewhat'different etcndard than the you have 12 enumerated.
13 HR. REYROLES:
I suggcat if, indeed, the Deard I
14 comes to the conclacion that what we have in cd.cr to 15 austeiri the second step or justify the second ctep of 4
16 going to relief in a singic allegation uhich Mr. Lyrca'a
~
17 tastimony proves by prcponderanca. of the evidenca in i
18 an inconsistency, then the s.ppropriats ccurca of tnic Suurd 19 is do alter the hearing and address itself to ',thct would be i
20 appropriate relief, in order to meet that inconsistoaar 21 o2 cure that incencistency.
I 22 CIIAIMeli RIGLER:
I8M not suro I agree tij:h 23 you on that aither.
24 MR. RE7BOLDS:
I was ta.4ing yourhypoid.aical.
23 If we foundthat allegation what socid. be the -
6 6
g
- =
332q
'bw2 i
oblica tion.,
2 CHAIR!'Jd:.'.IGLEn:
Ac c pr:sccical acetar, ths n2:ri'<3r 1
(
3 of pages included wit.lin the varieus.?.oticus qpecximataa a
4 4l 200 new, I countad to over 13 G cad Z hnyt.n t finished adding S
all of the notions :o that.
I;.'.s uncanccar3le t: chink I
r i
G the parties could respond in fiw ??.ys, Par;icular1
'2 Cinc3 7
4 4
7 the hearing is going on at this.:ima.
O I think the concept cf reaganding in 3"crjgarad j
i 9
fashion har, come marit.
A3 I try to detenn:.ne which uculd 10 j
be answered first, I would put at tha rer.r ths I
I i
I 11 Applicar.ts' motion dismissing all alla,Tations.
I have 10 not studied ic carefull/.
I hava p rused ii: hastily.
13 I'm not prejudging it anpray, but it seems to te ti.c 14 burden that you would have to meat, in order to p -: tail t
i 55 ca that motion wonic ce nie highest.ourcen c uhe varicus i
td burdens raised by the aix pending motions.
4 ty Your chc.ncou of prevailing woult'. b Icer. just I
13 because you have to go so far.
n.;
Thera is so much included within it.
1 20 I'm not accresc:.ng rfcelr to t.n e r.c r:. = c r '.c 4
21 right now.
I 22 MR. REYNOLDS:
You are not suggecting on the 23 basis of a different standard?
f 24 CHAIR:M RIGLER:
No, the standard in the same, i
I5 It is just that so much is incorporated within it.
The I
f 1
4 l
8330 bw2 standard in the sr.*.ie.
I nignt e.grao with the lage.1 stendards you he.va en.shci ate - ", I f 'd 2 a ': wen f-i
~
i i
untouched the legal suandards ycu u.:ge na to ar c 2.a c.ac:.u:.ng
~*
4 the metienc, there is se much encomprocad 1.tnin this, it I
8 1s, in tihzit sensa, that tho hurden ia th.1-gr ate _na.
l' a
Pe.. SMITH:
If yor. chould prevail cn that netiac, o
what would be the statun of Applicanta Ed.ibit 6, tha I.
conditicns?
YJ MR. REYI* OLDS :
The statuc ac hhe n:ntat is that thos :
,g 1
are the policies cf the company and ta the cua2nt that any-20),
body comes in and requsets accr;s, tnny vou..d Sc
}
l e.fforded access under those terraa in the ccatr:. cts.,
l 1.,
If you are asking would we accept thcsc as i
13 J
licence conditionc in the event that the Chcirncn':-
t, i -,
e:: amole were folicwed throuch aid the Scard were to racca i
p~4 I
the conclucion that there is but a sindle allectri --
i 1G i
i whit:01 relctec to Mr. Lyren's testimony and the.t that l
17 being the inconsistancy, it is fully cured by i:7.ca.i.ng l
so license conditions similar to Applicantr, mdtibit G i, th r.t I
would be one solution to the case.
I 20 l
i I'fa noc surs I understand what you necr:
by what the status is of it.
22 l
MR. SMITH:
I would read your mobicn withcut having j 23 I
read it to ask that there be a dismissel of the chartes, t
24 and thereby a recommendation of an unconditioned license.
I I,
>m t
t i
I f -
I I
g m..
bu4 MR. R2Tf0LDS:
I ciculd suggesu if tw i
i.
i Ecard :'cand that dinaissal of th.: drar7:c ; to rr:.n md j
r
.,s.
than, ccrtainly, th::a chculd bc :n t: cond!'-ic.n3..i ran.n.
4 Es l I
I don't thirk hhot detracic cr :..z. pacta ca a
Applicanta Exhibit 44. Tatt in t.11 7.*:2 acying.
I thir.h s-s if the Board should =rka a Jinding in thic care t't.ar. tirara ic
=
1 l
no inconsistency with the co dtreat la'. c, than :ha reccmandation vould ba en uncenditiened licenn..
O CLVSIMI PJ.CLEn:
The Dea:d rill v mt to dic mno
.,_i
.s l this.
Wo vill cena bec!: to thic achjact at 9:30 cn g
s, _,
Monday morning, We are not going to rul fran the E2nch nc.t.,
13 It in too ccmpic:: for t'lau.
i 5.
im. RETROLDS:
It ic ny understcru.ag u.ra waitinif to Menday morning to talk schedulo.
Is th: ti.e l
running at least so that we can h.1va core ns.3urcr.ca ttat ec.:
- 6
~
other parties chould mcyc fcruard noir rechhor.:hrn I
Ifi a.
waiting?
<o CHAIRMMi RIGLEn The oBur gnrtice r:3crld ha 4"9 preparing their responsen, but it is clear.70.elli not hoh l
3..
l them to tha suggested period in the D21ea.
't' hey vill get
' ~ ~
an extenaien, but the qusstion in hou much.
23 MR. LESSY3 Not only arc tre in hac-ing four
- 1 days a weck, but we are in part of the hearing chora cur
~3 roles are active with respect to crona~e::Eninatie:: of c::part n
t)il 44 n
8332 and fact witness, bwS CIIAIPJUd; IUCLEF.:
We 'eill sua you Ibadcy nernaag,.
(Uhere upen,. at 4 : 40 p.ra., the heari q was e
adjcurned, to be raccraened at 9:.30 a.m., on Mondny, April 26, 1976.)
E533 5
e O
l o
g
--n,
,- +