ML19329D232
| ML19329D232 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse, Perry  |
| Issue date: | 12/17/1975 |
| From: | Hillwig J, Rigler D AFFILIATION NOT ASSIGNED, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8002260809 | |
| Download: ML19329D232 (70) | |
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TOLEDO EDISON COMPANY AND
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CLEVELAND ELECTRIC ILLUMINATING CO';
50-346A 250-500A.
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Units 1, 2 and 3)
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-CLEVELAND ELECTRIC ILLUMINATING CO,,
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50-441A ~
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(Perry Nuclear Power Plant, y E, Units 1 and 2)
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~ ~.' Y Date - 17 December 1975 Pages 2398 -- 2472
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.G..E CHAIRM!iN RIGLE.".:
Good.. :Orcirci,
2efore uc begin, Mr. Rcinc15c, do y-Ju it.n.^ W if Mr. Hausar or comcona has checked with :Ir. Gal.le :ar c.nd Mr Lansdale about the 31st?
e MR. REYNCLES:
I do not know.
I cur. unt'.: rtchs to find out about that.
CHAIRMIJ4 RIGLER:
Will Mr.
lutuuer br,Jiich u.c u
t-his morning?
MR. EEYNOLCS:
He will not be
.t.th un tit'.0 morning.
Why don't '.;c make a ph ne.: call act; and I will report back to ycu before the end of the marning as no 1nat the status is on that.
CHAIR!%N RIGLER:
As I get the pic' cure.
ths alc t ic.
a good day for Mr. Hart.
We Erc thinking of having the argar.nt cb East-West Towers if we can arrange it.
MR. REYNOLDS:
We uili check cnd report bv.ck tc.
you as soon as we can.
4 i
Uhereupon, J.
ROSERT HILLV.*IG resumed the stand as a uitncss and, havinc.; Lean > ore.:riousli.,
I duly suorn, was examined and testified furtlu:r ac follcers:
DIRECT EXA:1INATION (Continued:.
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2 WITNESS:
DIiiUCT CiiOSS REDI.'.ECT
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Robert Hillwig 2403 24 t,4 2:39 i
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MRC Stuff E:thibit. 51 -
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NRC Document No. 241 2;C3 2 /. u c.
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NRC Staff Exhibit 52 -
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- sap of "cleCo Edison system 2412 2e: 37 10 Apmlicants Exhibit 17(TE)~
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O Lid you attend a
.m cing with '.'cle6c T.f.sca representatives on I.ugust 27, 197b?
A l.es, I c...ic.
O tihere vac tac loca' ion or enz.t mesting?
c 1
A Ramada Inn, Reynolds.kcair Toledo.
O Uho was pre. rent at that u. anting 4 nd vcm Sid they represent?
A Mr. Paul Sm.+rt, Toledo IZicon Mr. S il.~.
FDpied.r:rgcr e Dick Merriman, all of Toledo Edison, encept F.r..:er:: ira n.'cJ I
their.Washincton attornev.
Our attorne}- for the four 4
I municipals, Mr. Bob Jablon, and Janjai itam Scr.th::. n Sag..nc.2r-ing.
Myself, my cuperior, Mr. Sorgenfrei, neeling cres:;.
Mr. Robert Ratizack, Mr. Roy Dorsey Mnpclean, Mr. E:n9.
Hutchinson from Montpelier, Ohio.
I Q
Are you finished, Mr. Hillwig?
i 1
A There wcro several Toledo Edisca divj aiot: '
district managers there.
I don't know all of Steir na..
O What was Mr. Paul Smart's positien rith the Taledo Edison Company at that time?
A At that tims Mr. Smarb'c position ran Vice l
President, Toledo Edison 1,egcl.
O What was Mr. Hoopenbergs,r'n positicn
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Edison at that time?
A Bill's position was Rate Director.
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d jon 2402 O
At that mee.ing Gid you re Ic ':.t th it 2cle:.ie Edison wheel power to Bowling '3rema A
No, I did not.
J Q
Did an 'one on behclZ cf Em:lir.g Green. ras i + :: c that Toledo Edison wheel power to.Ccztrling Jrcen?
A res.
Mr. Jablon arceght up thL isru as.#n, cuc attorney.
O Was it a request t.c wheel?
A Yes.
1 Q
What was the - esponE a of Toledo L'dir cu
.c Mi:t request?
J A
It was quita long.
Mr. 17ml Smarv i. >'i '.Ei.'.L;i that due to tho.ir future planning or icads, the.u:m.:
1 i
financing of nuclear plants in CAP 00, that sove -- c,nd.ncra was small talk in betwcan.
It ended up cy Mr. Smart.stitine that we would be cra=y to conceive or nava a contrac? ri?
wheeling with any of municipalitier.
(Whereupon, the reporter raad froa :.ts raceri as requeste.d.)
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
i i
Q Is that what you said, M7:. Hilltrig.
A Concede, give into any.
O In that answer who did the "we" rag..: lo ch at Mr. Smart used in his respons6?
4 I
A He was the spokestaan for Toledo Edirmn at ttic
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2403 jon meeting.
4 Q
Therefers the "ue" re.fera to whcrG A
Tcledo Edison, 1
O To the b st of your recollec".lon ::cs that '.h language that Mr. Sme.rt t.Ged?
i A
Yes, sir.
Q Was Mr. Eoopenberger pretent waen Mr Smnr? r s.d<<
that ste.tement?
A Yes, sir.
O What was Mr. Hoopenberecr's recpone<1 :0 Mr. Smart's statement?
A As I recc.ll, nil, or ncne.
f O
At this tima I Uculd like to show you a letter.
It is marked as NRC Doctuaant 241.
I eculd like it to be marked for identification as NRC Exhibit 31.
ThiJ is a September 17, 1975 letter frcm Willia:n E. Ecops.nbr:ger to yourself, Mr. Robert 11illwig.
Are you familiar with this letter?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you recall receiving thiu Ictter 5: rom Mr. Hoopenberger?
A Yes, sir.
MR. COLUBEEG:
I WOuld like to n.or th:.: letter into evidence as NRC Exhibit 51.
MR. REYNOLDS:
May we wait r_ cecond?
I need a
jon 2404 a chance to look it over.
But I ain sure I h:w an objcanicn.
I was right.
I would like to m Gc the continuing objection on behalf of the Applicants c2.hc.r than the Toledo Edison Compar.y with rerpcet to Sto cd:aission of this document into evidence.
CIIAIPJildi RIGLER:
i'he objection will be over-ruled.
It will be admitted into evidenc~; as EC ::ttff Number 51.
(The dccument referred to wrw marked sC Staf f E:chibit Naiber 51 for identification cnd was roccive:d into evidence.)
O Mr. Ilillwig, you stated before that Dawl.4ng Green gets all of its bulk power from Toledo Ediscn.
Has Bowing Green ever considered alternative sourcoc cf bulk power?
A Yes.
Q Were any requests nade for bulk power by Eceiling Green from other sources other than Toledo Edisen?
A Yes.
We spoke with the Ohio Povar Company, 0
Could you please elaborate on the detaile of that i
request?
A My superior, Mr, Sorgenfrei and myself paid c visit to the Ohio Power Company office in Lima and l
jon 2.405 Mr. Horning sometime in the fall of '7:! and cpoko *'.<.th hin t
concerning our receiving totti power fronthem At that earticular time ha wc p3cuteu to hz.ve a total power customer but case through a littic later ia our conversation after speaking to Ca:r. plan at tha main Office that it vas a possibility i
. at thr.t time beccu;e of the 2
i engineering and construction of r. lir:2 thc.t to:.'.d re necancary to bring the two of us together and wt waro not financial;.y capabic of doing it all curaclvcs.
(Whereupon, the reporter read fran the ~. cord as requested.)
BY XR. COLDBERG:
O Although you were not capchle of builning a line to Ohio Powar to receive bullt powar from thca, Uas there an alternative way Of getting Ohio Powsr to ycu -- Ohic j
Power's power tc you?
3 A
Yes, through AMP-Chio.
O Was ther e any other alternative?
A No, no other altcrnativo.
We couldn'. gat it there -- we could not havo received power Jron er.yto6y else because we cre not able to build. the liner to tee.ch to the:.
financially.
O If Yoledo Edison agreed to wheel ti:.c.t po;;er te you, would you then have been able to got tae power?
A Yes, sir, i
2106 jon Q
You testified earlier, Mr. Hill fig, tint Souling Green obtains all of its bulk pcuer fror Toledo Edisen.
You also testifi.ed that the contracts which you have operated under in the past with Tolede Edicon contained c provision with
~
which you were dissatisfied and that you were unsucoccaful in attempting to delete thct provic.icn fror.your.Unhure contracts.
In light of thece faco.s, why do you continue to obtain your bulk power exclusively frcr: Tole'io Ud'.cen?
4 A
I have no other means of getting pcma.c from anybody else.
MR. REYNOLDS:
I don't think I have c. pro.t'.c.m with what I believe the real ;uestion is.
I have a proble:.t with counsel's characterization as to some of the carlier testimony.
I object to the question on thac bacio and ask if we cm have it restated in order to gat to what I believe is tne real purpose of the question and have the witness respond to that question.
CHAIRMAN RIGLEn:
Mill you rophrasa the gucation?
BY G. GOLUBERG:
Q Does Dowling Green obtain all its b lk powar from Tcledo Edison Corapany?
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A Yes O
Referring to the May '67 contract which has l
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jon 2407 already been entered into evidence, was that a contreet you operated under in receiving bulk rower from Toledo Edicen Company?
A Yes.
Q Referring tu Provision 8 of that contract, when that con trac
- was in effect verc 'fou dissatisfied with that provision?
A Yes.
!!R. REYNOLDS:
I object as hnving been asked and answered.
It was the e::act question and exact answer we had yesterday.
MR. GOLDBEF.G:
I cm trying to lay 1.he foundation for the question to establish that c.11 the facts included in my question were indeed tastified to by Mr. Hillwig.
i CIIAIRMAN RIGLER:
We dc recall the answers from yesterday.
Proceed directly to the question.
I think he has the framework in mind now.
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
O Mr. Hillwig, could you please explain uhy you continued to get your bulh power exclusively frem Toledo Edison Company?
A I have no other means to receive power from anybody else.
Everybody else is tco far away.
We can't afford to build to thcr..
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jon 2403 Q
With respcct tc the '67 contracc t' cat we have been talking abouc, do you recall nhe t.:cta cf that contract, length of time for wh.ich it would be. in e.5fect?
A rive yearn plus firc years.
O Uhat do you mean by five yearc pluc ff.vs years?
A It is contir.uing and if either sidc agrecs it ec..tinuG
- cr fivre porc years.
If disagreamont or c':hc.r red notification is given, then a new centract is scdu.
Otherwise it is a five tsnd ti'fe, or tan-year cont::act.
J Q
Has than contract e:cpired?
A Yes, sir.
Q Has it been renewed?
A No, sir.
O Are you then presently operating without a contract?
A Yes, sir.
O During the last si:: or seven months, nr. Eilluig, has Toledo Edison Company or any other Applicant anfcrmed you of a new policy with respect to providing access to nuclear power and associated services such as transmission?
4 A
No, sir, not to my knowledge.
l 0
To your kaculedge has Toledo Edican or any other Applicant informed anycac in the Bowling Green syttsm of that new policy 2 A
Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
jon 2409 MR. EET_! OLDS :
I caly object to tha grsluien in that it assumes thera is a nr. policy cud we dan't hava any foundation laid in chis reccrd yet ar-. to the basis for that.
CHItIPFsN RIGLEI'.:
As to an cld policy rclating to nuclear energy.
MR. REYNOLDS:
That depends on what we a.:e talking about in terms of old and ne.w cnd the tine frans that was involved.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
I don't recall cny previous testimony relating to nuclear anergy.
That in why I au confused about the u.ce of the term ne.w policy.
MR. GOLDEERG:
I am simply asking it they have informed him that they dc have a new policy, have any policy with respect to providing access.
CHAIRMAIJ RIGLER:
If you ash c. Lout cny policy, the question would be clearcr to the Board.
MR. GOLDBERG:
I will rephrasc the past two questions, then.
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
O Has Toledo Edinon or any other Applicant in the past six or seven months informed you of any policy uith respect 1
1 to providing access to nuclear pouar and related services such as transmicsion of that nuclear powcr?
A No.
O To the best of ~your imowledge, hac Tolede sdicon or
jon 2410 any other Applicant informed anyone in the. Bowling Green city or municipal systc.a cf any policy with respeat to providing access in related :rr.nse.1::sion ser'ricss?
A Not to my knowledge, no.
O Would you e::pect in your prenant position as transmission and distributica engineer ir thc-Eowling Green municipal system that if in fact Toledo Edison or any other Applicnat had infant.ed anyone in the city of any policy with 1
i i
respect to providing access to nuclear power and reelated transmission servicen, that you would learn of that?
A Yes, sir.
o J
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- 2 2411 1 mil BY MR. GOLDDEEC:
O I would like to non return tc a few ar(:an and ask you further questions about those areas.
Have you had occasion to refresh your recollection with respect to the testimony you gave yesterday about the city's tra:ismiscion line which is mentioned in provision 7 of the con rset which i
is in evidence as NRC Exhibit 45?
A Yes, I have.
O Did you use any document to refresh your recollec-tion?
A Yes, I did.
G Do you have a copy of that document?
A Yes, sir.
O Would you please identify the document?
A It is a map of Toledo Edison's power systeu as of June,
'75.
CHAIR:ULN RIGLER:
What is the source c" the map?
MR. GOLDBER3:
I would like to first state that I have copied a portion of thic map and dictributed it to all parties and to the Board this morninrJ.
I have alco circled in red the most relevant portion of that map.
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
G How did you got a copy of this map?
A It was handed out to all of those who attended i
1 the August meeting in '75 by Toledo Edison.
,/'
2412 2 mil G
It was handed out by Tolcdn Edison?
A Yes.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Is this a rcproduction from one of its annual reporta by any chance?
MR. REYNOLDS:
I didn ' t. hear.
CHAIRMAh' RIGLER:
Did it. c c.r.e from the nnnual report?
I see pictures up in cae corner and I rics curious as to its origin.
MR. GOLDBERG:
Mr. Chairman we just sau this : tup e
for the first time this morning and the machine t;co not able to reproduce the entire map.
At the earlies: possib:.e time, we will reproduce the entire map and redistribute it.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
My question is more of curiosity than being troubled by the authenticity.
MR. REYNOLDS:
I think maybe I can clear it up.
It is a reproduction of a larger vall map and it has been condensed in size and is a map that was produced by Toledo Edison Company.
MR. GOLDBERG:
At this time, I would like to have this map marked for identification as URC Exhi' cit 52.
(The doctuaent referred to was marked IRC Staf f E;.hibit No.
cxx 52, for id6ntificat!.on.)
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
G Nou referring to this map, Kr. Hilluig,. and
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2413 3 mil referring specifically to the little section of the map showing the City of Bowling Green, would you pleE.so e:! plain what the dark line is uhich passes through the City of Bowling Green in an east and tresterly directic t?
A Yes, that is our 59,000 transnicsion line that is part of Toledo Edison loop.
O Is that the line which is menticaed in provision 7 of the contract in evidence as NRC E::hibit 45?
A Yes, it is.
G Does Toledo Edison in fact use that transmission line to transmit Toledo Edison electricity?
A Yes, at times --
MR. REYNOLDS:
I will object as having bean asked and answered yesterday.
1 MR. GOLDBERG:
The witness has refrechad his recollection.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
I will permit it.
MR. REYNOLDS:
I have no problem if we are testifying on the basis of refreshed recollection.
I assume it's not on the basis of this document, though.
I would like the record to make it clear if we are going to talk about the same testimony on the basis of refreshed recollection that it show that this testimony is not from the documunt or it should be stated on the record that he has used tne document to refresh his recollection.
1
2414 4 mil MR. GOLDBERG:
He has esed this docurent to refresh his recollection.
On that basis he is now testifying.
Is there c pending question that has not beza answered?
(tihercupon, the reporter read from the record, as requested.)
O ifould you please again cnswer that question?
A Yes, at times they have used that lint.
G How do y u know if they have used that lina?
A First, they have asked to use the line to wheel power through because of equipment problems and their Pemberville substation.
O 11 hen they asked to wheel power from whc and to whom was that power wheeled?
A All I can answer there is their Pcmbarville sub-station to thL Tontogany substation.
4 Are those substations both on the Toledo Edison system?
k Yes, sir.
O Did Bowling Green benefit from that wheeling?
A No, sir.
O Are there any other ways in Chich you know that Toledo Edison has used that line?
i A
Yes.
One other reason.
Two years ago in the t
2415 Smil wintertime we commented on the frost on the wires of our end of the systen, having frost on them.
The loop go!.ng through town was perfectly bare.
To me, they were puching pouer through in excess of what our requirements were.
It dried the lines up through the hear from the trancmiccion of the loads they were pushing through it.
O Did you personally view that trancmission line at that time?
1 i
A Yes, sir.
6 During those times -- for those times that Bowling Green has in fact used that transmission line -- that Toledo l
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Edison has used that transmission linc, have they paid you i
for the use of that line?
A No, sir, they have not.
G Have they ever paid you for the use of that line?
i A
No, sir, they have not.
G Have they ever compensated you in any way for the use of that line?
A No, sir.
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
0 I would like to now refer you to provision 8 of the contract which is in evidence as NRC Exhibit 45.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Mr. Goldberg, bafcre you get into questions about Section 8 of the contract, I wieh you would refer your witness to paragraph 12 of the contrcet l
i I
2416 6 mil because I sec an inconsistency between his ter.timony and the provision of the contract which is in effect at this tinto.
I would like you to go over that with him to cleer up possible confusion there.
DY MR. COLDBER3r G
Mr. Hillwig, I would like to refer you to Section 12, Division 12 of the contract mcrhed as URC Exhibit 45 I would like you to road that previcion and I would like to ask you a question about that.
A Yes, sir, I read it.
O Has Toledo Edison given you Uritten notico to the best of your knowledge, providing for cancellation of thic contract?
A Yes, sir, they did.
G When did you roccive that written notice?
A October of '71.
G Thank you.
I would like you now torefer to provision L of that contract.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Pe. Gcidberg, when you said written notice, you mean Vritten notice of cancellation pur-suant to paragraph 12?
MR. GOLDBERG:
Yec, I did.
CEAIRMAN RIGLER:
That is Vhat you nicant when you answered the question?
2417 7 mil THE WITNESS:
Not cancellatien, sir.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
What nort Of written notica did you receive?
THE WITNESS:
I received a written notice that the new contract that was due May 1,
'72, would he 6n increase in rates.
CRAIRMAN RIGLER:
Did you f:ign a neu contr?.ct with Toledo Edison provising for continuttion of servics at an increased rate?
THE WITNESS:
No, sir, we did not.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Since May of 1972, have you been paying for electricity at the new higher rate proposed by Toledo Edison?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
O Referring to provicion 8 of that contract, to the best of your knowledge, during the time when that contract was in effect, was there any reason except for provision 8 why Bowling Green couldn't compete with Toledo Edison for customers outside the corporate limits of Bowling Green?
A No, sir, there was no reason why wa couldn't.
G You have testified that during the time when this 1
contract, including provision 8, wac in offect, you vere i
dissatisfied with provision 8 Darir.g that period of time, were you also dissatisfied with the relationship between l
I i
2418 Toledo Edison and Bowling Green with respect to "hecling or the lack thereof?
A Yes, sir.
O Would you please explcin?
A If I may look, I believe, under Exhibit B of this contract --
G You are referring to Staff Exhibit 45?
A No, sir.
That is not correct.
I will have to refer back to the contract, propoced contract th:t they submitted to us in March of '72 cnd following that in April of
'72, a meeting we had with them.
I returned thic copy to them marked up, so I'm ref erring to the marked-up proposed copy.
O That is Nnc 45.
I believe you caid you would like to refer to Exhibit B of this document; is that correct?
A Yes, Exhibit B, service specifications.
?.nd the firnt page I marked insert A.
G Please explain why you marked as you have co indicated.
A I marked thic cs insert A and enclosed incert A because I felt ct the time we were not being compensated for wheeling through our systen of their power.
But we were required to furnich and we did the necessary switching and protective equipment.
Pn also had to provide maintenance on these oil breakers in particular that I'm going to mention
2419 9 mil in insert A and suggested to then if you don't wheel power through our cystem, then why dcn't you mintain these oil breakers?
Because it hac been a probic with as from anywhere to four, six, eight hundred dollars annuclly to have Toledo Edison maintain the breakerc for us, the City of Bowling Green,cimply because ve do not have the personnel to maintain and service this type of equipnent.
I inserted insert A into this cupplement D servian to try to redeem funds for their wheeling through our system. That is what I had in the back of ny mind at that time.
G Do you ctill feel presently that you are not being compensated for the uso of that trancn.issica line?
A That'r. correct.
G On the first page of this doccment in the upper left-hand corner --
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Which docurr.ent?
MR. GOLDBERG:
t;RC 46, the same contract.
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
G In the upper left-hand corner is a ds.te, 3/9/72, which was written in by hand.
plence explain the significance of that date.
A.
That is the date that Mr. Moran and M. Wendell Johnson from Toledo Edicon gave us thic copy of their pro-posed new contract.
4 Do you know whose writing that is?
2420 10 mil A
That is minc, sir.
O And would you just explain when you presented this contract marked up to Toledo Edison representatives?
A At our second meeting, which was April, early part of April of
'72.
MR. GOLDBERG:
We have no further questions at this time.
CHAIRWdi RIGLER:
Well, I think in order to save time I will raise a concern of the Bcard right here, so that all parties can address themselves to it.
It is not at all clear to me whether or not the contract in evidenca is --
NRC Exhibit 45 is or is not in effect, because I don't know if proper cancellation under clause 12 uas made or not.
Clause 12 on its face appears to provide that in the absence of cancellation it will continue to run for another five years.
The testimony has not satisfied me as to whether the notice proposing a higher rate schedule affected the cance.llation or not.
If any party wants to address himself to that, it would be helpful to the Board.
MR. SMITH:
In that respect, it might be helpful to inquire as to whether any of the provisione of the Exhibit 45 were complied with,particularly paragraph 8, subsequent to April, 1972.
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
A Mr. Hilluig, subsequent to the end of the first
2421 limil five-year period mentioned in this contract, has there been complitnce with any of the provicious of the concract, par-ticularly provision 87 A
Yes, we har at that iarticular titte, no reruen to change the operationc.
It was a matter of ratas that we waren't in compliance with.
Fa did not sign, renee red the second five years by our signature in May at
- nb The remainder of the contract and my bec:
knowledge maintained -- we maincainad it in fort.
CHAIRHAN RICLER:
Are you under the impression you had to sign conathing in 1972 to e-tend the contrcct for a
another five years?
THE WITliESS:
A renewal, yac, because it was being changed in the rate structure.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
In fact, neither p=rty did sign a new contract?
THE WITNESS:
That, we did not.
MR. SMITH:
Can you give specific eramples of how the narrative terms of the contract were complied with subsequent to April, 1972?
If I understand ycur tectimony, it is that you ss.w nc reason to change ycur operatione undar the 1967 contract.
THE WITNESS:
Thct's correct.
We changed ncthing at that time.
MR. SMITH:
Did you continue to function cc if
2422 12 nil the centract were in effect?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
MR. SMITH:
Can you give an example of what you did under the 1967 -- under the terms of the 1967 contract, notwithstanding your belief that it was expired?
THE WITNESS:
The only best example I can say is that we never requested from Toledo Edison to extend our services out into their territory and never wrote a letter requesting that we be allowed to serve this or that.
So we did not extend ourselves beycud the limits of paragraph 8 and in paragraph 7 we havt provided all of the equipment and lines tnat they asked for.
We tried to change nothing up until that particular time.
MR. SMITH:
Well, Mr. Hillwig, would you, in the absence of paragraph 8, have extended yourself?
Fcr example, the second paragraph of -- the second subpcragraph of para-graph 8 says that you will not, without the written consent of Edison Company, supply electric energy for rosale to custoners located outside the corporate limits of the city except for the village.
Would you have done that anyway?
ucrmr.11y, would there have been an opportunity for you to have done that?
THE WITNESS:
You answered my question, practically, a
The opportunity did not arise to any degree for us to go out and infringe on their so-called territory.
7 l
2423 1.3 mil MR. SMITH:
How about subparagraph B?
I maan r
item E in the subparagraph of paragraph 8, which scye, for use at any premises now being furr.iched electric cervice directed by the company?
Would you have had tite opportunity to approach any of those customers?
THE WITNESS:
I can't think of one, sir, no, sir.
MR. SMITH:
So your testimony is not, then, that item A and item B had a restricting effect upon your o>cra-tions.
You are unable to point to any restrictive effect this had on your operations after Apr'il of 1972?
THE WITNESS:
As it turned out, thct'c correct.
If the opportunity would have been there, I would have been restricted.
CHAIRMM! RIGLER:
Has Bouling Green cought to expand its custoner base within the city limits?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Does Bowling Green have any policy with respect to axpanding its customer base outside the city limits?
THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
CHAIRMkN RIGLER:
Tbnt is they have no policy to acquire such customars or not to acquire such custo"ters?
THE WITNESS:
No, sir, not to my knowledge, MR. GOLDBERG:
May I ush two further quastions in
2624 14 mil light of this?
BY MR. GOLDBERG:
O Did Toledo Edison ever in0icate they had ca.ncelled provision 8 or any other provision of that contract cince 1972?
A No, sir.
O If you had access to <ernativo sources of bulk power through wheeling, might you have approached other customers?
MR. REYNOLDS:
May I have the question again, please?
(Whereupon, the reporter read from tha record, cs requested.)
THE WITNESS:
Yes, it would have been --
MR. REYNOLDS:
I'll object, but he has already answered.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Yes, if it would have been --
THE WITN,ESS:
If it would have been cheaper power, we would have gladly tried to service more people.
MR. GOLDBERG:
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Justice Department.
j l
BY MR. MELVIN BERGER:
G Mr. Hillwig, I believe you said that at can time you worked for Gloss, mile;is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
My job was to take care of municipal i
l
... - - -. -. - l
2425 15 mil cities in Ohio concerning dirtribuuion and substations oniv.
4
?Tnat were your duties with Glos Pylo?
A I did the engineering layout, cpec trriting, R
receiving of bids, inspcotion and conceruction for 'the firm.
O You stated you worked for Collier Construction Company at one time; is that correct?
A That's correct.
G Can you describe your duties with Callier?
A Yes, I was their engineering and tche-off man.
Did the bid work, proposal work that ue put out.
0 You just utilized the term taka-off mcn.
What does that mean?
A You are an estinator, basically.
4 You were doing estinating for them?
A Yes, sir.
G In regard to tchat type of construction?
A All types down to industry.
From industry up to the distribution and transmission tower work.
0 Yesterday you answered a nunbar of questions dealing with the wheelinc of Buckeye Power 'with Toledo l
Edison.
Are you familiar with the Buckeye arrangement with Toledo Edison?
A No, sir, I'm not.
4 What would be the cource of your tactimony yesterday?
Just your understanding of what the arrangement
2426 1
16 mil is.
r A
The understanding from Mr. Moran, from the meeting we had in June at the Holiday Inn in Ecwling Grcon.
Eo enlightened me to the fact that they were dissatisfied with their wheeling contract.
G But you have had no dottiled knowledge of the Buckeye arrangement?
Is that right?
A No, sir, no detailed knowledge.
G Does Bowling Green sell any power at wholcssale outside the city limits?
L Yes, cLr.
G To whom do they sell this powcr at wholoecle?
A The village'of Tontogany.
G Do you know what percentage of the Dowling Green load within the city this wholesale sale outside the city represents?
A On the wholesale it would he between tuo End three percent.
4 Does Bowling Green sell powcr at tzholcsule to anyone else besides the villagc of Tontogtny?
A No, sir.
O Does Bowling Green serve any custcme.rc outside the city limits?
A Yes, sir.
O Can you tell me appro::imately what percentage cf
2427 17 mil a Bowling Green load within the city is represented by cales outside the city at retail?
CHAIRIMN RIGLER:
Now you cnid within tha city is represented outside the city.
That is self-contradictory.
BY MR. FELVIN BERGER:
O Can you tell ne approximately what pcrcentage the sales at retail outside the city are of Bouling Green's total retail salen load?
A No, I can't anstrer that.
I could tell you another way of getting around it, though.
O Go ahead.
I A
Our outside city limits sales uould -- were approximately 4-1/2 percent of our -- custoners, not sales, is a little over four percent of our custemers ic outside the city limits.
4 That is at retail?
A At retail, yes.
G I believe you mentioned a nuaber of Toledo Edicon people in your testimony, such ac Mr. Moran.
Do you know what position Mr. Moran has held with the Toledo Edison Company during the tinie you met him and had discussions and negotiated with him?
e A
Yes.
Mr. Moran was a vice president.
G What was the position of Mr. Wendell Johnson, who you also mentioned?
2428 18 mil A.
At that tira?., Mr. Johnson was dirtrict rannager of the Fremont Division.
O.
Wha',
.s ?ir. Johnuon nov, at the precant time, if r
o you know?
A.
I don't specifics.lly know other than he was taken into Toledo and has a new position cnd is a Tolade officer, I should say.
}
e
jon2 2430 g
wo general service and one pcLer?
A Yes.
Q uow do you distinguish between the tuo gancral service schedules?
P A
By requirements; cne is less than 100 KVA and the other is less than 1000 INA.
Q You indicated an ansvar that these hava not always been the customer classificatior.o; is that correct?
i A
That's correct.
Q How did the classifications in the past differ from the present ones?
This is in the time periol you have baan at Bowling Green.
A They differed in this respect, that wa had residential -- we had a residential het water heat.
We had reeic'ential all-electric.
Those hot unterc and all-clectrics have been eliminated generally spesking frcm the old to the new.
O Are you generally feniliar with the Bowling Green rates' for these classes of customars for the time paried you have been at Bowling Green?
A Yes, generally.
0 Are you also generally fcmiliar with the Toledo Edison rates for similar service in the Bowling Green arca?
,-A Yes.
2431 jon3 O
HaSthere been a difference in tne rates of Toledo Edision and Bowling Green for cimilar service during the time you have been at Bowling Green?
A Yes, sir.
0 Which rates havc been 1cuer?
A All.
O All rates?
A All of our rates have bsen lower than their rates.
O That is for similar custem::rs?
A correct.
Q Has this been true during the entire tina you have been with Bowling Green?
A Yes, sir, it has.
CHAIMiAN RIGLER:
Are your rates the same insido of the city and cutside of the city?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
I CHAIRM1LN RIGLER:
Is there any rectriction with respect to servicing cuetom?.rs outside the city the.t ariscs by operation of Ohio law?
THE WITNESS:
Rot to my knoulecige.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
You and Toled.c Edision are free to compete.for customers outsido the city limits?
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
When I ccy free, I mean there l
2432 jon4 is nothing in tho' law that routricts them.
THE WITNESS:
Eu, nir.
MR. RSYNOLDS:
To his knce: ledge, I assunc ths.t is the question.
TEE WITNESS:
That la ccrrect, sir, to r;y knowlcage,
! kn0W of none.
'5Y MR. HELVIN BERCER:
Q I believe in response to so:no of Kr.Goldberg's questions about use of this approximately four uilos of 69 I?.?
transmincion line by Toledo Edison ycu indicated thero was one instance where you think they were using a line because of frost condiuiens that you observed and t.acru hcd also been some requests by Toledo to use the lina when they had problems in the Pemberville Substation; is that corrccr.?
A That's correct.
O Would these have bsen different occasionn, the frost and the Pemberville problen?
A Yes, sir.
O To your knowledge was this transmiasion line damaged in any way by Toledo Edison's ucing it for transmission of power?
D A
No, sir, not to my knowledge.
O Did Bowling Green suffer any detrimont by virtue of this use?
A Only in the recpect that wa maintai.n the equipmsnu
I jon5 2633 i
f 1
for them.
2 Q
Would that maintenance S;o en whaLher they 3,
use the line or not?
I l
4 A
Probably yes, to a degrec.
l 5
MR, MELVIN BERGER:
May I havc a ::, aman; to confer? l s
G (Pause.)
{
)
7 DY IiR. MELVIN BERGER:
l 8
Q Mr. Eillwig, I take it then cinca Emiling Creon 9
has served no detriment by the use of that li:te by Tolede to
. Edison, that that line does have encocs cap 3. city which can it be utilized; la that correct?
12 A
It could havs,yss.
13 Q
Is that still the situation today?
t,;
A Yes.
f I
33 0
I believe you mentioned in rocponse to so:ac 1
16 of Mr. Goldberg's questions that Bowling Grcan hc.d sou-ht j
i I
17 alternate sources of bulk power su.co_lv. and part:cularly vou l
to mentioned contact ycu had with Ohio Powar Cc:apany, 19 To your knowledge has Bowling Grccn dircetly or i
20 indirectly sought other source: of bulk power suppl-; acide fron!
Ohio Power?
21 A
7hrough AMO-Cnic we have tried E.nd belonged 9
u to the organization in hopes that ac:aedav U+ could, vor.
na Q
What efforts has MiP-Chio ccde in ob. air.inc bulk 2*.
l P Wer SUPP Y?
25 l
1 f
i.
I
jon 2434 A
They have made efforto in the direction of Ohio Edison, the OHic Power and PASNY Power for wheeling.
O Uheeling from whom?
A Prom their sources or PAS!!Y Power or Buckeye Power, I believe, and interningling among ourculves the municipals.
There were one or tuo who had cacess powor.
hamilton and Orville had some excoss at one time.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Eind access or genarating ccpacity, do you mean?
THE WITNESS:
They had the gencrating cipacity that would have afforded excess power.
CHARIMIJ! RIGLER:
Oh, e:: cess.
BY MR. MELVIN BERGER:
O Who did AMP seek wheeling b' ?
J MR. LERACH:
I don't knou if he mentioned two cities.
You mentioned Orville.
THE WITNESS:
Hamilton, Ohio.
(Whereupon, the reporter read from the record as requested.)
THE WITNESS:
I thought I answered that ta the best of my ability.
In this what you are asking?
BY MR. MELVIN BERGER:
Q You mentioned in response to or.e question that AMP-Ohio had sought some wheeling arrangements.
I want to I
jen 2435 know with whom had they sought wheeling arrangennts.
A Company-wice, to my knowledge, Ohio Power, Ohio Edison, PASNY Group, and I he.d talke d to Toledo Edison a nnmber of years back and, as I have repeated hero, about whncling and rates for A!G-Ohio ct that time.
I don't know if that enawars what you had in r
mind or not.
O I just wanted to know who AMP-Oaio hr.d contacted in regards to making wheeling arrangements.
A To my knowledge, that is it.
Q To your knowledge has A!G-Ohio reqnceted cocaer to any nuclear plants?
A Yes.
I am positive they did through the City of Cleveland for Davis-Besse and on their own Ecr the ones that are east of Painesville and also the Duques.aa urca plant.
They wrote and requested a percantage of whatever was available for Ohio.
The details I am not clear with.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Can we identify the plant cast of Painesville?
i EY MR. MELVIN BERGER:
O Is this in Perry Township?
A Yes.
I am sorry.
I can't think of the nate of it.
O Would the Perry plant be the ncn0?
Loos that ring a bell?
jon 2436 A
I believe you are correct.
O What about the one in Duquesne area, do you know what plant that was, the nama of that plant?
A No, I don't.
Q Would Beaver Vallcy sound famill:2r?
A It could be very well, yos, sir.
MR. LERACH:
I move to ctrika the witnosc' last answer as speculation.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Denied.
Bi MR. MELVIN BERGER:
O I think you indicated that AMP-Onio had contacted Ohio Power as a possible source of bulk power supply.
Do you know the nature of the request or the discussion that took j
place with Ohio Power and NS-Ohio?
A No.
I was not in attendance.
I don't knou the exact nature of their requcats.
CHAIRMAN RIGLE't:
Mr. HillwicJ, in NT -O incorporated?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, nonprofit incorporation.
l l
l l
l l
- 4 2437 1 mil BY MR. HELVI!i BERGER:
A Mr. Hillwig, at the prc ant time, does Bowling Green purchase power fro:n Toledo Edican under a ucriff that is on file with the Federal Potter Cormission?
A.
Yes, sir.
MR. MELVIN 3ERGER:
I think thr.t will be all.
MR. GOLDBERG:
At this tiac, Mr. Chairuan, nny I simply move inte+ evidence NRC Enhibit 52, uhich is the map.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Ecaring no objection, it Vill be admitted as NRC Exhibit 52.
(Tho document referred to,
- xxx heretofore marke:1 H2C Stnff Enhibit tio. 52, for identifica-tion, vac received in evidence.)
MR. GOLDBERG:
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Mr. Hjeltfelt, bsfore I givo you your turn, it might ba better for the Lonrd to csh a question or two relating to the Department of Justica's questions.
i Wnat was the nature of the contcct bec.::en AMP-O and Ohio Edison with respect to accuiring bulk power?
THE WITNESS:
With respect to bulk powcr?
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Did I underst1.nd you to say that AMP-O approached Ohio Edison to both get p wer, and, l
2438 2 mil second, to get uheeling er trancaiction services for sor. cone else's power?
THE WITNESS:
Yan, they of fered at cac tinte a unit down on the river at Cardinal, another ner plant they were in the process of building.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Thay offered a ptrt of the unit to whom?
THE WITNESS:
To N'2-Ohio, but nip-O was not able to take advantage of it at that particular time, but I believe the operation was still there.
MR. REYNOLDS:
Are we talking about Ohio Edison or Ohio Power?
CHAIRMAN RIGOR:
My question uns Ohio Edicon, or at least I hope it was.
1 MR. REYNOLDS:
I'm not sure, then, tho witnecc i
understood your question.
I believe rhere is confusicn.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Did I micspeak?
MR. REYNOLDS:
I'm not sure you did.
I think W3 should ao back.
He has answered, I think, uith scracthing else in mind.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
My questions relate to the contact between AMP-O and Ohio Edison, uhic:1 I unde' stood was one of the companies you identified ts hr.ving been contacted by AMP-O to acquire power or transmincion cervices.
THE WITNESS:
That was one of tha comps.nics that
2439 3 mil AMP-o had been dealing with for c uheeling or trcncmiacion contract.
CIIAIPJiAN RIGLER:
But not for a purchase of power contract, then?
THE WITNESS:
Not to my knowledgt, no.
CHAIPJ1hN RIGLER:
CEn you tell ma about the nature of the contact between AMP-O and Ohio Edison with rcupect to transmission services?
TEE UITNESS:
The details, I cannot tell you, no, sir.
I was not there personally.
CHAIEMAN RIGLER:
Do you know e::Ectly what it is that AMP-O was requesting from Ohio Edison?
THE WITNESS:
The right to use their syctem to wheel power.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Do you know the cource of the power that they asked to be uhealed over the Ohio Edicen systan?
THE WITNESS:
Not exactly, no.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Do you knou the destinction of the power AMP-O requested to be whccled over the Ohio Edison system?
THE WITNESS:
The municipals in their crea Vas basically what they were trying to get the whecling pouer 1
for, in Edison's area.
CHAIRVAN RIGLER:
The trancniccion of services i
2440 4 mil would have been for delivery within tire Ohio I:dison aren?
THE WITNESS:
That's correct.
CHAIPlc.N RIGLER:
The transnission scariccc would not have been for transmission through the Ohio Ediron arca to destination points outside of its present acrrice area.
THE WITNESS:
I wouldn't say that.
They possibly would want to have wheeled on through to reach those on the western part of the state.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
But you don't know the details of the request that was made?
THE WITNESS: No, cir, I do not.
CHAIRMAN RIGIIR:
Do you know when the requenn was made?
THE WITNESS:
Datewise, no.
A year or tiro years ago.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Did you ever learn anything with respect to the nature of the Ohio Edison response to the request for transmiscion services?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, it was not received too ucll.
That is what I can say.
MR. MELVIN BERGER:
Mr. Chairman, may I cak a question to clarify a point which is still uncienr?
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
You may ask a clarification question.
2441 Smil BY MR. MELVIN BERGER:
0 Mr. Millwig, in response to ons: of my cucations with regard to the nature of the contact be ween MIP-Ohio and Ohio Power, you indicated that you didn't kncu the nature of the contact.
In response to onc of Mr. :ligier'c questions in regard to the contact between MIP-Ohio and Ohio Edison, you mentioned the Cardinal generating unit.
I'm wondering if you had gotten Ohio Power and Chio Edisoa confuscC in your mind when I asked you the question thout tle nuture of the contact between AMP-Ohio and Ohio Pow w.
Ifnebh s.r in fact it was the Cardinal unit that ycu should have referred to in that contert rather than in tha other conter;t?
A.
Yes, you are basically right.
May I ask a question?
Who has a contre.ct with Orville through A!iP-Ohio, the Ohio Power Company or the Ohio Edison Cocipany, for wheeling and pcuer?
0 I believe the answer to that is me Ohio Povmr Company.
MR. LESSY:
This is the docurant Staff ic securing now.
We have a document, but not the service schedules.
MR. REYNOLDS:
I object to having councci restify-ing.
The witness has testified he doesn't have the knowledge.
I move to strike counsel's remarks.
CPJsIRMAN RIGLER:
I will grant that motion.
MR. SMITH:
Of courso, the Board knous it is Ohio
2442 6 mil Powar.
We heard testimony on that.
THE WITNESS:
I wanted to clarify.
MR. SMITH:
We heard testimony on that and I'm announcing to all assembled that I know who it ic.
ftr. Lyron testified to that.
Didn't Mr. Lyren testify that Ohio Powcr had an arrangement with Orville?
MR. REYNOLDS.
The testimony that was addresned to that matter by the witness was that he was net f amiliar with what the situation was and we asked the docmacnts and the documents would be producsd and we would provide thcc to the Board and then we uteuld have a record as to uhat the situation was.
MR. SMITH:
It was Ohio Power.
lie are trying to get the identify of the utility.
MR. REYNOLDS:
That's right.
But not uheeling.
The questions ue are talking about here won to a uhnaling question.
Ohio Power wac not the basis for my objection.
MR. SMITH:
Tho activity.
MR. REYNOLDS:
The characterization of the trans-action or arrangement.
CHAIRMAN RIGLI:n:
The Board will consult the docu-ment to be supplied before it draws any conclusion.
The relevance or weight of the particular question mny not be all that great anyway.
,i
2443 7 mil MR. REYNOLDS:
I appre.:icca that.
Fir. Snith asked for clarification as to why I was confused when he made that statement.
What I was scying wcc based on m:2terial that ic to como, MR. HJ2LMPELT:
I itVite the BoaTd'c attention to the transcript for cece nber 16; in the efternoon ceccion, under redirect by Mr. Lessy, it shows that AMP-O has a contract with Ohio Power for third party Whaoling which includes transmission to Orville.
MR. LCSSY:
We will get a finalized copy of that document and we will provide it to the Board at the earliest moment and that will satisfy all parties.
MR. HJELMFELT:
Has Mr. Berger concluded?
CHAIRMAt! RIGLER:
Yes, you may conduct cross-examination as may be permissible.
There was objection yosterday to your conducting crocs-examination.
The Board overruled the objection on the basis of RTJ-74-ll ct page SG7.
This is Prairie Island.
Mr. Charnoff crgued this to the Appeal Board, did you not?
MR. CHARNOFF:
That unc another winnor.
I also had the lu2:ury of having the Staff on my side in that case, however.
~
2444 jon1 5
MR. HJELMFELT:
The Board asked a question with respect to whecher Toledo Edison-Bowling Graen contract, !?RC-45, is still ine.ffect.
I an sure Mr. Smart can help ma with V
this.
I didn't find anything 2.n the cantre.ct that would indicate there was a> provision for unilateral rate changes which under the -- since the testimany showed a rate increase it would indicate that the contract must have expired by its terms at the end of the firs'c five-year period.
MR. REYNOLDS:
I object and move to strike.
Mr. Hjelmfelt has under the Board'c order some latitude to cross-examine this witness.
I heard no question in his statement and I doubt the relevance of it in any event.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
You are saying hc is arguing rather than asking questions?
MR. REYNOLDS:
If it was argument.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
We grant the faction to strike.
MR. HJELMFELT:
I made my offer to assist the Board.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Thank you.
CROSS-EYJJIINATION BY HR. HJELMFELT:
-' 700C Q
Mr. Hillwig, is it your ".estimony thct the company which made an offer of access to a nuclear plant to AMP-O was t
{
2445 jon2 a company which had signed a wheeling contract with AMO-O?
MR. GOLDBERG:
I would object.
There is no evidence that it was a nuclaar plant.
.i MR. HJELMFELT:
I wil.1 rephrant the question.
BY MR. HJELMFELT:
Q Is it your testimony that some utility in Ohio offered AMP-Ohio access to an electric generating plhnt?
A Yes.
Q And is it your testimony that tha' utility was one which had a wheeling contract with AMO-O?
A To the best of my kncwledge, yes, it was.
MR. HJELMFELT:
I have no further quections.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
All right.
The Board has a question which I think maybe we will ack new baccuse_
Mr. Reynolds may want to go into this on his cross-sxamination and it might be better to have it before him at that time.
You referred to an August 1975 meeting batucen officials of Bowling Green and Toledo Edisen at which a request for wheeling was made by Bowling Green which request was refur.ed 'by the officials of Toledo Edicon.
When you were ash d about the reasonc why the request was refused, I understood you to say thar one of those reasons advanced was Toledo Edison's future financing of nuclear power plants in CAPCO.
My question is: how was it explained that the
jcn 2446 I
future financing of nuclear plants had any effect upon 2
Toledo Edison's ability to wheel for Bowling Green?
3 THE WITNESS:
I am not sure it did have an effect 4
on their wheeling.
It wac a macter of Mr.Umart giving ur a 5
background or his reasoning bchind why he cidn't want to do 6
some things.
7 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
I wasn't asking for your 8
remarks.
I am acking about any ressonr. advcnced by 9
Mr. Smart or any other Toledo Edison personnel that 10 shed any light on why the financing of nuclear plants 11 in CAPCO affected Toledo Edison's ability to Uheel.
12 THE WITNE3S:
No, Ac far as I know, it had no 13 effect on the wheeling.
14 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
But did they explain it any 15 further to you?
1G THE WITNESS:
No, other than their involvement 17 of their own in CAPCO to build up their loads and th3y had 13 been depending on our load which had bacn plcnned into 19 their future growth and he stated thtt,as I said, th y would 20 not want to give us wheeling which would allow us to get g;
it someplace else and leave them holding the bag.
22 CHAIR %N RIGLER:
Did they mcke any c-ther 23 reference to their inability to whecl for Bowling Grean with respect to some othEr commitmant cf Toledo Edicca in e,
CAPCO?
25
jon 2447 I
THE WITNESS:
No.
i E
CETs!FJiAN RIGLER:
Thank you.
I t.
3 MR. LERACH:
The record should raflec" I thini j
i 4.
the witness never answered tint question.
5 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
I think we wi11 r.,ske a five-6 to ten-minute break.
No more timn ten nintter please.
i 7
(Recess.)
b 5
8 i
i 9
10 t
11 i
i 12 i
i I
IS 14 i
. r-I d4 9
1 16 i
i 17 la 19 1
20 i
21
.n..o.
l I
i I
24 25 1
i.
1 l
N 2448 1 mil MR. REYNOLDS:
Mr. Chairmen, Mr. Smart advised you yesterday that Mr. Briley was ill and he is unable to be here.
We had a conversation with the Staff and the Department yesterday afternoon and they raised the possibility that Mr. Smart might at some time in the future have to testify in this proceeding and that if that woro the case --
because he is an office of the company, vice president-legal and secretary, and if that ic the ccce, than I think there is a question whether he should participate in cross-examination at an earlior stage and testify at a later stage.
He does not feel comfortable about doing that, and Ue think the point is well taken.
Given the circumstances with Mr. Driley's illneca, with the permission of the Board, I would like to undertake the cross-examination on behalf of Toledo Edison, but with the understanding that Fuller, Henry, Hodge and Snyder will be representing Toledo Edison in this proceeding and they will be participating in the future.
I'm sort of pinch-hitting in this situation because of the circumstances.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
You can proceed.
I was wondering if we may have the same problem with Mr. Hauser that we are having with Mr. Smart?
MR. RFYNOLDS:
Mr. Haucer is in-house counsel and Mr. Smart is with a law firm that is outside counsel.
MR. LESSY:
May we have one minute?
There is no
'~
2449 2 mil need for the Board to leave to discuss with sotae of the parties whether Mr. Smart should be esquestcred for cross -ea: amination.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Tho question com2s a little late.
I don't know what the ruling would have been during tha direct testimony.
Obviously, he is going to consnit and has consulted with Mr. Reynolds as to what to ask on cross-examination.
That is in the control of the Applicants.
I don't see how prejudice would arice because of his being present for cross-examination.
MR. SMART:
Mr. Chairman, for purposes of clarifi-cation, I want to state to the Board, when I arrived in town I had no anticipation that there was any likelihood I would be called as a witness.
When that became known to me, which was after I orally noted my appearance here, I becarco concerned that I not get nyself into any conflict situation.
At that time, I had indicated ue uculd file
'I written notice of appearance.
I'm so.sewhat unecrtain whether to withdraw the oral one, file the written one, or to leave things as they are.
I do not intend to participate further in these proceedings as councel persone.lly.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
I think maybe you had better file the writton notice.
Your remarks will be on the record and I think can be considered by all of the parties.
- However, you were introduced on the transcript and I think that e
t
2450 3 mil maybe the record would read more correctly if a written notice were filed.
Actually, you could turn around and file a uith-drawal, if you want.
MR.
SMART:
It will be filed this morning.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
All right.
Thank you.
BY MR. REYNOLDS:
G Mr. Hillwig, I just have a few questionc for clarification purposes primarily.
In your testimony yesterday, reference was made to a memorandum dated January 8, 1973, ontitled a memorandum of AMP-Ohio, Inc., 1972 power supply negotiations with the Toledo Edison Company.
I believe it bears Staff Erhibit No. 49, and there was attached to it a cover -- and there was attached to it a cover memorandum URC Staff Er.hibit 48, which referred to this memorandum as an affidavit.
The Board Chairman then requested whether that was a loose use of the term " affidavit."
I would like to show you what is another copy of thic document and also distribute it now.
F?e conducted a file search and we found that the copy in our files has a signature and certification on it and that the term
" affidavit" might have been properly used.
If I can distribute that, we can proceed.
For l
2451 4 mil identification purposes, I will cark this as Applicent's Exhibit No.17 (TE), and it is document No. TECO-51.
(The documsnt referred to was marked Applicant's Exhibit No.
17 (TE), for identification.)
MR. REYNOLDS:
I did not locata thic document, Mr.
Chairman, until after tN proceeding yesterday, and in review-ing the transcript and noting your cc mant, we undartook to see if we had a copy in our file that would bear on the question you raised.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
My only question was whether that was in fact the proper onclosure since the cover letter referred to an affidavit. But we will receive this.
Are you moving it into evidence?
MR. REYNOLDS:
Yes, I am.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Ecaring no objection, it vill be admitted as Applicant's Exhibit'17.
(The document referred to, heretofore acrked Applicant's Exhibit No. 17(TE), for identification, was received in evidence.)
~
BY MR. REYNOLDS:
g Mr. Hillwig, let me direct your attention to the third and fourth paragraph of that memorandum.
Third paragraph 9
i 2452 Smil reads as follows:
2 Mr. Hillwig then pointed out that while AMP-O did not yet have access to any power supply sources that would 4
require wheeling by Toledo Edison, we hope to have such supplies in the fairly near future and that in case that G
were to develop, we would want Toledo Edicon to wheel cuch I
7 AMP-O power to our municipals in the Toledo Edison area.
O Is that, sir, an accurate account of your 9
comments on that point at the June 2 meeting that is refer-10 enced in the memcrandum?
II A
Yes, cir, to the best of my recollection, that's 12 correct.
13 G
The next paragraph reads:
14 Mr. Hillwig then asked whether Toledo 15 Edison would be willing to wheel for AMP-O in case 1G AMP-O were to purchase bulk power or to generats on its own.
17 They declined to give any immediate answer other than to say 1G that Toledo Edison was very dissatisfied with the wheeling 19 arrangement they had with Buckeye for wheeling Buckeye 20 Cardinal power to the co-op substations in the Toledo 21 Edison area.
I ask you whether that paragraph sets forth 22 l
accurately what the ccc:ments were by you and the recponse 23 by Toledo Edison at that meeting?
~
l l
24 L
Yes, sir, I believe it does.
25 0
On the following page, the first paragrcph, Mr.
2453 6 mil i Moran and Mr. Johnson answered all questions by saying tiat 2
the best they could do would be to see what the Toledo 3
Edison position would be, and thcn let AMP-C know.
And 4
my question, Mr. Hillvig, is whether NRC Staff Erhibit SG, 5
which was introduced yesterday, is the correspondence from 6
Mr. Moran which subsequently let A?G-O Ictow of the Toledo 7
Edison position.
8 A
Yes, this is subsegnant to that meeting, yes.
I I
9 As I know it, yes, that's correct.
10 G
Now,. we had some testimony this morning about a j
1; meeting in August of this year and I believe you indicated 12 that a request was made by you at that tine of Toledo Edison 13 to wheel power; is that correct?
i i
14 L
No, sir, it is not correct, f
1 15 C
Would you correct me?
16 L
The request was not made by me.
It was made by i
17 Mr. Joblin of Spiegel, our attorncys, j
i to G
Was it made on behalf cf Bowling Green?
19 A
On behalf of Bowling Green and the other three 20 municipals.
21 l G
And the other three municipals?
22 A
He was the attorney for the four m".nicipclc, 23 yes.
I 24 G
In making the request, did he indicate a specific 25 source of power that the four municipals were interested in I
2454 1
7 mil I
having wheeled by Toledo Edison?
2 A
Not to my knowledge, he did not, no.
3 g
Did he indicate any other specifics sr.ch as 4
destination or amount of power that he was interested in i
5 having wheeled?
G A
Not amountc.
He mentioned Bowling Green.
7 0
Do you have in front of you the map that was 8
referred to earlier this morning that is Staff Exhibit No.
9 52?
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 G
If I could ask you to look at that for just a 12 minute.
I believe you testified yesterday, in r sponse 13 to a question by the Chairman, that Bowling Grcon had some N
400 customers located outsido the city lbuits. Do you 15 recall that testimony?
16 A
Yes, I do.
17 4
Could you indicate on this map for me uhcre those custocors are located?
- g 19 A
Generally, yes.
The majority aro located south of 20 Bowling Green in what is known as Portage, Ohio.
The remainder 21 are radial lines east, west, and the northeast area, which are rcral or faras.
22 23 G
Are you familiar with the Hancoch Wood Rural 24 Electric Cooperative?
L Y"8' 8 i# -
25
e 2455 8 mil l
g Do they serve in the Portage arca where you l
2 indicated the bulk of the customers are located?
i l
A-N0 8ir-3 e
4 G
Does Toledo Edison serve in that area, to your 5
knowledge?
L No, sir.
G j
7 MR. REYNOLDS:
I don't have any further questions.
g, Maybe I should, if I could, make a ctatement to the Board for clarification.
There has been some question here 9
10 as to the existing contract, its termination, the pricr i
- contract, and so forth.
We undertook the obtain by gg l
telecopier *.he existing tariff. hTnat we got was not the 12 d cument that - the proper document that could be introduced.
13 We will, therefore, clear this matter up c 2 our direct case.
14 la Y
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
It would be of interest to the l
B ard to see if there wzra any cover letter attcchcd to the 16 exchange of contracts in 1972 between Toledo Edicen and g
w g
r en.
en I say We achange of anWac% de 18 proposed amended contracts is what I should hcVe said.
gg MR. REYNCTES:
We intend to put in the full 20 documentation that will cover the confusion tha Board may l
21 have with respect to what the contractual arrangement is between Bowling Green and Toledo Edison, correspondence, 2,,s contracts, and filingc, et cetera.
,u i
MR. LESSY:
I would like to note from what has been 25
2456 9 mil 1
stated on the record so far there may be a significant legal 2
question as to whether or not there is a contract, whether 3
it is written or oral and the tcrm of that centract.
We 4
would like to reserve the right to address that question 5
from the point of view of FPC rules and contract law.
6 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
Mr. Lerach.
7 BY MR. LERACH:
8 G
Mr. Hillwig, you made reference to a communication 9
from AMP-O requesting participation in a power plant in 10 the Duquesne area.
Was this by way of a letter?
11 L
You are asking ne something that was directly not 12 connected to me.
I understood at a meeting that this had 13 taken place.
I had no personal knowledge of it being by 14 letter, telegraph, or telephone.
15 0
You have no personal knowledge as to who:n the 16 request was addressed?
17 L
That's correct.
18 G
You do now know the name of the power station 19 to which it related?
20 L
No.
21 4
Do you mean yes or no?
22 L
No, I do not know the name of the station it was 23 connected with at that particular time.
All I imou if y
that it was Duquesne Light and Power area.
25 g
Is it correct that the City of acwling Green is I
2457 10 mil 1
not interconnected with the Duqueane Light Cenpany system?
2 L
That's correct.
3 G
Is it also correct that Daquecne Light Cc=pany, 4
to your knowledge, has never committed any acts or taken any 5
action which has restricted the growth or the operation of the 6
Bot' ling Green system?
7 A
That's correct.
I a
4 Is it true that Bowling Green has no contrccts 9
with Duquesne Light Company relating to the Bowling Green to power system?
A That's correct.
11 12 G
Have you, or to your knowledge, has cnyone alce 13 fr m the City of Bowling Green, over requected Duquesne Light 14 Company to raske available to you, Bowling Green, an ownership 15 interest or other participation inte: est in a power station in which Duquesne Light Company had an interest?
is A
To my knowledge, we never have.
3.,
i 4
Is it true that you have never ached Duquesne 18 g
Light Company to whec1 power for the City of Bowling Groen?
A That'n correct.
20 O
Y u have testified to a number of nestings that
{
21 g
you had with different parties relating to Eculing Green's t,
bulk power supply situation.
Is it corrcet that no onc from O,,
1 l
Duquesne Light Company was present at any of those meetings?
l.
g I
A To my knowledge, that's correct.
g I
a
2458 i
limil MR. LERACH:
Thank you.
2 CHAIRIIAN RIGLER:
Any redirect?
3 fir. GOLDBERG:
No, your Honor.
4 MR. MELVIN BERGER:
Yes, I have a couple of
=
~
questions on redirect.
G 7
8 9
10 11 12
(
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 i
t 8
l
2459 jon1
-XXXXX 7
I P.EDIRECT EXAMIMATION 2
BY MR. MELVIli BERGER:
3 O
Mr. Hillwig, I would like to refer you again te 4
URC Exhibit 52 which is the map which you chewed us this i
5 morning.
I would like to ask you if Toledo Edison serves 6
any customers east of Bowling Creen.
7 A
Not in th+t near sast.
Further cut, yes.
By that U
I mean a mile away.
9 Q
Does Toledo Edison serve customers to the wast 10 of Bowling Green?
11 A
On the same basis, yes, appro:cinataly I. mile or 12 two west of us and north.
(
13 Q
Does Toledo Edison serve any custom;.:rs to tha 14 northeast of Bowling Green?
15 A
Yes.
10 MR. MELVIN BERGER:
That is all..
17 MR. REYNOLDS:
Mr. Chairman, I am putting on ny 10 other hat, if I may.
I would like to request a ruling similar 19 to the one requested at the end of Mr. Lyren's testi.nor.y 20 under Rale 105 as to each of che other Applicants separately 21 that Mr. Hillwig's testimony be rostricted r,olely to the l
Toledo Edison Company except with respect to his tastimony 22 23 that relates to AMP-Ohio requests thnt may or may not havo 24 been made.
25 There, to the extent you ara inthat :: cec, it
2460 he perhaps began discussing matces that vent do Edison-Bowling Green situation and relanicnship.
Outsiae of that testimonr, IT.y requect 10 under t
a similar order from the Laard restricting the G testimony.
CEAIR*Od; RIGLEs :
Hou then. bout hl.: reference to an's advancing as a reason for refc.rcl to wheel
- ation in CAPCO in CA?CO nuclear plants?
MR. REYNOLDS:
I ask that that be restricted to i
m unless it can be shown at some time tilat any m1mbers of CA200 er the ci-har join: Applicants nouledge of that or had any participation in that and it seems to me that should be linited to f
II m.
!I CHAIRIM RIGLER:
Let's talk about Rule 105 de
- t says when evidence which is admissible asa for one purpose ' ut not ad:aiscibic to ano-c tusing right there, is it your contention tht c i
Hillwig has given is not admincible to otha:. l
- olely that it is not relevant to the other i
i NR. REYNOLDS:
My paciticn U;uld be tact it s to the other parties.
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
iiny not?
a1R. REYi; OLDS :
I would return to the
2461 jon3 s
argument that I have made heretofero that as I understand o
the nature of the cases that are pre.sented in susns to me U
until you have some evidence in here thet is sufficient 4
to est'ablish either a contract combination or conspiracy i
5 within the maaning of Section 1 that the evidence that comec, S
in should come in only against the pa-ties it is dir:cted l
t 7
against unless there is a connection made at a la er date.
C Unless there is a connection at a later date, the I
i i
D evidence is admiscible oniv its to the single part.v..
i 10 CHAIPJGN RIGLER:
~'cll, withholding our ruling l
f 11 until the end of the affirmative case by the par.nlee 12 opposed to Applicants to see if such connectica c.c m2dc.
13 MR. REWOLDS :
That would be agreeable.
14 The only ncto that I added at that point is that o
15 it seems to ma that the Applicants chould have the ruling I
1G of the Board prior to the time they are to put on their 17 direct case with respect to thic motnan because it could la materially change the scope and the nature of their direct case.
19 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
All right.
g 20 Now, returning'to the tczt of Rule 105, it doecn't 2;
say we shall strike the evidence if we were to agrec with g
22 your contention.
It says the tribunal shcIl ru.t1ict the 23 evidence to its propar secpc.
2:
MR. R2YUOLDS:
I did not mcVe to ctrike yecterday
- g or today and I very carefully did not.
I ar not asking that
2462 jon4 1
it be stricken, but only that it be restricted to its proper 2
scope but not that it be stricken.
That was not my : notion.
3 1
3 I agree with uhat the Chairman it: saying on tnat 4
point.
I do feel that the question is in accordance with I
t 5,
nule 105 that it be restricted to itc proper scope, g
6 not that it be stricken.
lt 7j CHAIFF.AN RIGLER:
We wil*a take your request under i.
O advistment.
9 You may wish to amend or withdraw the requests 10 at the completion of the affirmative cases of the other parties 11 Sc I am going to count on you to ratind us c.b some prcpar jg opportunity that we make a ruling or make a rcvised ruling 13 if you should revise your request.
l 14 MR. REYMOLDS:
I understand.
15 MR. LERACH:
On behalf of Duquesne Light Company, a
I make a motion that none of Mr. Hillwig's testimony is 1G 37 i, considered in determining whether a eituation inconcir ant jg with the antitrust laws enists with respect to the Duquesac 79 l Light Company.
20 Mr. Reynolds' noticn has certain erecptions to
- 3..
the scope of the ruling raquested.
Mine has no e:::sptions.
I p.
'I 22 move that none of his tcctimony be considered againct rucuonse s
Light Company.
23 I think the r.eaning cf adnissible in Eulo 10t
..in really is in terms of relevance because only relevent evidence 25 f
i I
I 2463 l
jon5 I
1 is in terms of relevant bacause only relevann evidence ic 2
admissible against a party.
I I
3l Mr. Hilluig gave nc testir:ony uharaci.r7er thct j
i j
4l related to Duquesne Light.
Thereforc, I request ;att his l
1 I.
5 testimony not be considered againest Duauesne night.
j t
i 6
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
We will take that under i
7 advisement.
3 MR. HJELMFELT:
If the Boar.d is dafarring ruling, 9
it might wish to defer hearing argumsnt n1so: inthatcorrect,f I
10 j or should I str.te now to be curc I er heard.
I f
i e}
CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
If the:re arc p* ""! '" y 4
1 considerations you want us to be thinking thoun t.a ve mul.:.
3:
p-y this over over the next several weekc, you can ctll thic to g
our attention now.
I JS You are correct that we would hear fur 3her ergtua:nc 16 before we made a significant ruling on thic scint.
Gnd7 MR. HJELMFELT:
I will defer arcurnant on that 17 1
18 Point.
gg j
1 MR. EEYNOLDS:
For clarification, I don't nean gg for my qualification to undercut Duquesne Light't pocition.
g I think I was a little sloppy in whct I was doing because ?.
t g
i aza talking in terma o" **e different Apn.1.icimtc -
}
~
22 1
The qualification I was talhing abor.
tr" to i
l 23 A?H2--Ohio wouldn't have been relevant to Duquema. Lie.nt in En.v.
y, I
event, but it would be relcrant to testim:ny we have heard i
25 1
i l
l I
i 1
I
1 l
jon6 0
24G4 i
1
}
l T.
here today with respect to Ohio Edicon.
Thi.. uns ?he rcauca i
t i
i 2
for the qualificatior..
I 3i CIIAIR'*M EIGIEE:
I agre.e with you thi th:
l I.
L 4
key word may be relevant.
Ihybe we
.rc nc.- in 'gresnent on
,1 I
5 '8l tha' l
I S
l Rule 105 talks in tems of e dmircit2._.# t:.i Jaic! is !
i t,
7 l
a different question than relevance.
8 I disagree with Mr. Lersch.
e, '
MR. REYl; OLDS :
That uc vill have oppor h ninv. to g
l f
10
- argue, gg MR. GOLDBERG:
Before the Board rules an the 12 question of the applicability of Rule 105, the Stc.ff.ould I
13 like opportunity to respond.
94 I would like at this time to point out that the i
15 last phrase of that rule is "and instructs the ju::y l
1 accordingly."
16 I
t l
Many of these rules, including this on::, ic 97 designed to prevent the jury from miscpplying evidon0c c. gainst 18 the improper parties.
gg Similarly, in the Applicant statuonnt: againct 20 j
i procedural matters to ne considered many of the cases thcv i
2 ited were cases in which a jury cat and the cenr.snc-
}
12 l
f t
concerned about the jury misconstruing hbe ev:.d.cnce, j
IIere we have a Board which is more cc 3:.i:lc of c4 properly applying the evidence.
,,o I
i l
1
i
\\
2465 l jon7 j
1 i
s 1
CHAIRWJ! RIGLER:
That ' r, right, but cf
'm cit 1i
)
c a
2 l
cs a trier of r.act, our judguente. wou,.
i.c oc,asca on y upon e
I evidence that we deemed to he ainisait le and r.l.'.een perhape 3
5 I
4 to the cane degrea it would be cons 0.iered by n :u:g sitting as a trier of fact.
('
5li I.
o s
G MR. HELVIN DERGER:
Lefore r. rul;cri :w. 'eds on t
7 this the Departrent would like to address it.c: elf c. the a.aute. !
1 I
3 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
All of this any ':,c precatv.re, o
g although I think Mr. Raynolds is corrset in bri;.aing hic 10 motion to our attention at the cerilest, cpparumr ;:7 I
i 9
11 All right, Mr. Hillwig, you ray sucp da:n.
Th:.nX ;
(
19
.v.ou very. much for coming this long. diar.ance.
{
I 1
13 (Witness c>:cused. )
i i
i g4 CHAIFF.AN RIGI.ER:
Before wc adjd.:rn.or tha j
15 day, I wonder if we can get the natter of the e:1._ bits which j
t 16 have been introduced for identification pury.;es but not j
.i introduced into evidence clucred uo.
i 17
- 22. LESSY:
The Staff would like to rost=e with l
18 u
that on the first day of the na::t hearing.
gg I
With respect to a couple of these r::tibite, tlwrc :
20 I,
are attachments which would make them complace and
'.a y
21 terms of xere::ing the copicc, we haven't coupleted. that, f
g f.
I do have a matter rultting to tuo ur.rp:ncrtd I
i, exhibits that I would like to to into ct the k.sard c 24 4
pleasure.
2a 4
i 1
.I 1
T f
jon 2466 1
C1! AIRMAN RIG'2R.
All right.
I i
2 MR. LESSY:
There are two uncponsord exhibita l
3 's Staff would like to offer at thit tinte Tha rea. con ', 2 vaited I
g e
4 until this tims is b2.Osuse tMua docurc.5 cts were 1:On the l
>i, S
- l files of the Tcledo E6iec1 Ccmpar.y and when Mr. Briley was s
!ia 6
her? previously I requested c E tinelation ao to anther ticity.
(
n.
7 I spc.Ke w2.t 1 Mr.nav, na.Lar, vie 1mnars..'.v. a.s t e r e.,
v 3
and he gave me a preliminary indication.
t 1*A 9 l:
hs Staff Exhibit 53 and 54 tha istafd 's Domnac.nta I e
f 1
to Numbers 22 and 23
- g j
MR. REYNOLDS:
I have na problcm. I don't thitzk,
j i
with what we are ge.ing to be doing.
1 12 f
p~'
I think Mr. Iressy was raf arring to his cos:2nte j
f 94 to me yesterday that went to the authonticity of the Icaterial. )
i l
15 I an handicauned becausa F_r. Erile.v
- thon:ht
~~
g t
uould be here.
He is the one I passed the matter on to.
I 16 i
4 l'
I
\\
He is not here.
I 17 I
l 1
18 -
If we can defer this it would bc tora j
appropriate, it seems to rae, and we can do it without te ing I
19 up a 1 t of time of the Board.
20 CHAIEMAN RIGLER:
Does Mr. Eriley intend to be 21 1
here on tie. 5th?
22 i
- w MR. REYEOLDS:
If he is not, I vill hav0 cn g
i answer on the 5th or befors the 5th, becauco I w.:.11 na/e had 24 a chance to get in touch vith Mr. Briley.
I tJ e n;rb he would i
l 25 I
y i
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jon 2457 'I I
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hc here and ue could give Mr. Lecsy the ane.'<.>cr.
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i I am not. in a pocition, c1though I don't thiru I
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3il we teill have difficnity with it.
j L
.I 4
It would save every.tedv a lot of tir. if we can
.t 51 vait and I could talk with 'ir. Lesay at E.oite other tirm anH ngl 1
6 the brea'c about it.
l t
t 7
liR. I.ESSY:
I wonder since the requesb Yas medu onl 1
I 8
the first day of hear:.ng enn a.t docs relate.
to matters
}
9l relating to Mr. McCabe 's testirao.y and Mr. Larach will not i
i 10 be here come the 5th because ha has raattero in anott.er i
i i
11 proceeding we trill go at the Eonrd's pleasure.
It relates i
i t
t t
12
[
to Mr. McCabe's reqitect for CAFCu meco rchip, i
l 13 I
':'ha request for stipulatien of authenticity un-l t
l 14 me.de on the first day of hesring.
Mr. Lerach has other 15 cornitment.
j end8 16
~I 17
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18
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19 1:
I 20 i
4 22
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246C fa is 8
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CHAITEAN RIGLER:
Mr. Le.roch is not likely to challenge the authenticity of tie document in which Mr. ToledoI, E !.
a i
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3 Edicon assures him there ir no problena.
l
- t 9
4 MR. LURACH:
Mr. Ricer can speax for the firm.
.i 5 !i There is no problen.
.?
6 lI CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
All right.
Then maybe we N
will defer until the 5th.
I'm not sure we have calved our
/ i,,t ii eq problem with respect to exhibits.
I think Mr. Smith hcs t.
t'.
9 :l a word on that, i:
lt 10 l' MR. SMITH:
I would prefer not to have presented 1; [
to me exh? hits you don't intend to offer into avidenco.
I i
12 !
don't want to read them er consider chou.
I have two stacks i
j3 of them right now.
14 CHAIRMAN RIGLER:
This relates to the --
i
!5{
MR. SMITH:
This en parte cos:.unl.catic n With no.
i I
i 16f If yon don't intend to offer them into evidence.
t MR LESSY:
We circulated to all parties, including 17- <
i 33 ;
the Board, a copy of the exhibits ue intended to offer into ll 19 ;l evidence.
A few of those exhibits cre matters I intended 11 if j
2C.
to go into today.
If the Board prefers, we ceut dist-ibuto i
21 i them as we go along.
W thought because of the bulk of the 22 P[
i material tha'c it would be difficult to get up and hand our r
23 '
three copies.
Perhaps we won't have an afternoon sescion 4
gg today.
Perhaps we can eithcr -- I prefer to do thic on the l
6th and get the matter straightened out as to exhibits to 3-uo
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s
?
I l
Il
- r
v-l 2469 i
I 2 mil I
which there are attachmenta cr to go forward on an unsponsored
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basis.
Beenuse the nature of the testimony, there are 3i documents we intended te use and we did not.
K.1 o f the.
I l
4
parties have those docu.nents.
He vould be h2ppy to go i
S forward at the Board's diceretion.
6 tc,, ggITg:
Ism talking about my peruonal l
7 preference.
I regard it as ex p cte, cven though the other 8
parties to the proceeding may have copics of thant.
Uho knows 9I that is being concidered?
10 CHAIFlGK RIGLER:
We know we uill not consider i
1 11 anything that has not been properly introduced and accepted 12 into evidence.
But nonetheless, I think Fd. Smith is right.
I 13 We vould prefer not to have these unintroduccd do v;.13nt in
}
14 our possession.
15 MR. LESSY:
Okay. Fine.
I don't think the prohica i
16 will be in tema of the unsponsored nature of r.can I
i 17 of these vfnich I plan to go forward on -- I thought I would I
I I
i 18 resolve the problem today.
I a.pologize for the question of 19 inconvenience.
20 CHAIRMAN RIGLSR:
It is the gnostion of whethcr or ;
I i
21 not you actually intend to introduce them into cvids co.
j i
22 MR. SMITH:
How we have URO Enhibit G5, which is in 23 evidence.
It is nn incorrect document.
I think that j
i 14 needlessly adds ccnfusion to the record.
(
25 MR. LESSY:
It is incomplete.
You are tallting l
1 f
.i
i 2470 i
d i
1 i
3 mil about the nttachman: to the letter thiu: 7r. Hill'. rig 2
testified to.
It ic an incc aplote document, in that it i
I
' b,l does not include the affi:5avit u. art.
I think tne record --
c.
6 s.
'l the document thct Mr. Eillwig had durin;- ti e terr 1 of his i
%~t testifying was not the affidavit copy.
Sub;courntly Arplicants t
8 i
produced that or presented it to the Fio.m.-d and morad it i
into evider.co na un Applicant e-tibit.
That dsas not ache E
the document incorrect because it 6cas not heve. the af fi--
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davit.
It is the document Mr. Hillwig had in his f:*.les.
l 10 l
MR. SKITH:
You want to leave it :.n th;;.i: vc.y?
- 1 1 MR. LISSY:
I cce no reason not to.
m' ~
MR. SMI':'H:
F.y concarr. is if RRC 49 is citc?. in 13 your proposed u-ncings or your propecca finuings or your
- ~
1 M [
hrief or sometim-else without a mocory better than 1 have,.
j I.
i 15 I may not recall that Applicant's 17 is the same doccuent, 16 exospt that it is in affidavit form.
Except that I s7 happen to have written it on n.y copy.
It ic c. Pr0cadure j
18 which makes briefing difficult, ushec deciding difficult.
19 It in unnecessarily complex.
20 MR. I2SSY:
I would like to make clear as of the 21 time when that exhibit was of fared, we had no kno G. edge l
1 1
22 '
there was any other zorm of :.t.
A you ucu.tc.a.tc us co 23 withdrew --
I'm only observing di.fficulties I 25 have with 1cose langut.ge of enhibits.
I i
(,
i
2471 4 mil 1
MR. CHARHO:
fir. Chairman.
n MR. SMITH:
I undsrntand this is the caly copy
- )
he had and that this is the copy the witness ter.tified I
4 chout.
5 MR. CIIAPJiO:
For clarificatiion of the re.70rd, the 6
Exhibit 48, cover lattcr detsd Januaq F and Exhibit Ci, 7
both NRC exhibits, is dated Jcnnary 3.
P.pplic-nx's Erh Wit 8
17, it beccmes clear thic wac not no:Lrised.until sometim.*
9 after the original vac sont.
I'm scr: y. I'm inc.crrect.
to L
I withdraw that com:asnt.
?
11 CHAIRIGE RIGIER:
Tentatively we arc locking to that 12 hearing on dicqualification on eccerber 51.
(
13 J
'tR. CHAP 2!OFF:
If we are ad-iourning n ic7, cc.n I l
t 14 arrange for a conferenca call with you to advise you of Mr.
l l'
15 Lansdale's availability later today or tomorrow.
16 CEAIRMAN RIGLER:
How about toscrrot? narning?
17 I can't give you a precise time because I may hava ancther le appointmant.
If the conference call operatcr wi.1.1 chech 19 with me in the morning, I will give yo.1 a time.
20 MR. CHARMOFF:
If the date is avail 2hlc I wi.ll j
c I
a 21 L call yacr office and say it in available and cr.ll the other 22 parties and sr.y it is available.
Then you cotid put cut un 23 order.
If the date is not available, I will try to arrange i
24 a conference call.
25 CHLIIC4AN RIGLER:
We vili. be considering only the I
2472 l
,[
5: nil motion to ciscualify.
The other parties de not have to bc t
2 e
here.
They are wcican;e to c:,mo if they ucnt to, but there is I p
3 3
no necessity for them to ho there.
- 12. ILT. EIJfFELT:
If thcra in r, conference call, it
~
5 would be batter to have Mr. Ucrt on in tha.s our offico.
6 MR. CHAR'IOPP :
Okay.
i MR. GOLDBERG:
At whac tiv.2 on cha 5th are wo I
i l
reconvening?
1 f
b CITAIRMAN RIGLER:
Our tantative plan is ?.o go 10 four conaccutiva days that wock.
That chsuid be d.;ut 15 t
witnessas, I hope.
We crc to hcVe a **#.t-"na leedy 13 at 10:00 a.m.?
j I4 CBAIRIGN RIGLEP,1 Wn have ILr. Leszy's preliminarf 15 matters, but that shouldn't take more than u ecuple of 16 minutes.
17 Yec.
Everyone have a nice holLaty.
I'.'a uill cae t
t' 18 you on the 5th.
19 Ornereupon, at 12:15 p.m.,
thm hearing was 20 adjourned, to reconvene on Janucry 5, 1976, at 10:00 c.n.)
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21 22 4
23 t,
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25