ML19325F173

Transcript of 891031 Public Meeting in Rockville,Md for Collegial Discussion of Items of Commissioner Interest. Pp 1-48

ML19325F173
Person / Time
Issue date:	10/31/1989
From:	NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:
References
REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8911140380
Download: ML19325F173 (52)

Text

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA j

NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMIS SION i

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kO COLLEGIAL DISCUSSION OF ITEMS OF COMMISSIONER INTEREST

?

Location:

ROCxvIttE, MiRytino Date:

OCTOBER 31, 1989 Pag 6S 48 PAGES l'

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E.L R. GROSS AND CO., H!C.

COURf REPORTER $ AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 ?.hode Island Avenue, Northwest Washington, D.C.

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DISCLAIMER i

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This is an unofficial transcript of a me".ing of l

l the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on l

l October 31, 1989, in the Commi.ssion 's office at one White Flint North, Rockville, Maryland.

The me e' ding was j

i open to public attendance and observation.

This transcript i

has not been reviewed, corrected or edited, and i '. may contain inaccuracies.

l 6

The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.

As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is l

l o

not part of the formal or informa3 record of decision of 1

i l

the matters discussed.

Expressions of opinion in this

{

i transcript do not necessarily reflect final determination j

l or beliefs.

No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of, or addressed to, any statement or argument contained herein, iexcept as the Commissicn may authorize.

l NEAL R. GROSS CoUtf Rt90titt$ AND TRAN5CRitth$

1333 RHoDE ISLAND AVINut. N.W.

(703) 734 4433 WASHINGTON. D.C.

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C01,LEC1 A1, DISCI)SSION OF ITl:Mii 0F -

f4-COMMISS10NEN INTEREST T

PilBLIC MERTING i

Nucionr Reguintory Commisalon One White Flint North

.g Rockvillo, Maryland

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Tuesday, October 31.-1980 The Comminalon met in open 8.uninn, pursuant' 2

' t o ' not ice, at 8: 00 a m.,- Kenneth M.

Carr', Chairman, presiding..

COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:

l-KENNETJi M.

CARR, Chairmnn of the C o mm i n t, i o n THOMAS M.

HOBERTS, C o mm i s s i o n ra r KENNETH C.

HOGERS, Commisaloner sr.

JAMES H.

CtJHTISS, Commissioner

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NCAL H.

GROSS 1323 Ithode Island Avernue, N.W.

Washingt on, D.C.

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' WILLIAMLC. PARLER,_' General Covnsel

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CHAIRMAN C4DR:

Good. ' moi tiin g e ladies and-g.

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-gentlemen.

This morndg's ment tric han bron s i h e d u l e d '.

3 collegial dinrunston - of,it ems of Cummission-N 3

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Thlu is-the second such meeting we've held,-

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'intecent.

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the firmt being this past August.

Thenn collogial d'

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'mentings are.

intended tu~ be nn open forum for d..

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' discussion of matt ers af fect ing t he Agency.

10 Before tudny's menting i notud to my follow C

11 Commissioners a few Itene thot I'd-1Ike-l'o dlacuss:and.

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'12 there may be topics that other Comminulorkru would

n like to talk about.

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.14 Defore we

begin, ar* 'there any

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. comments from my fellow Commissinnero?

f 1G If not, we'll. open the-meetinc.

You'll y

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no't i ce, co f f ee. i s aval1able.

F 18 COMMISe.10NER HOREHTS:

Thnnk you very much.

[I 19 CHAIhMAN CAHR:

I took care of my s

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20 renponsibility from the inst meeting.

E 21 So, let's start at the Inf t end.

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,22 Commiss-loner Curtiss?

rh 4 23 COMMISS10NEH CURTISS:

Topics.

I tot your V

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21-list,. Ken, and I think those are all thinen that would

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~05 be appropriate to discuss.

I had a

couple of r..-

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4-1 additional-topics that

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t hought we m$ght. discuss and

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we can either go into thoni now

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e,; 6 3-CHAIRMAN CARR1 Okay.

Start-nut.

.4 COMMISS10 NTH CliRTISS; ~ OlAny.

One.tupie'ihn't 5

we had raised at the last meeting, Ken, Tom and I met y

G wi th' Herb Knut x nnd I hnven' t' t alked; t o. Toin since then 7

'but I act ually "t hought ' t hat was ' a f airly. product ive-

.8 meeting.

Maybe at some point before the briefinn on 9

the-EP A performance assessment atandardC we' ~ con t ul: -

10 under advinement whether we want to have Knutx.como 11 in.-

'I 12-Cl! AIRMAN CARH:

Okny, j

13 C06tMISS10NER C lf R T I S S :

Faneinat*ing

~ 14 discussion..

It went beyond some"of the anpoetn of th'e

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e regulatory j

15 paper.and got into questions about the IGL

~ nppreach that we're'using in general and i thvogb(,it.

.17 was

-s very unoful. discussion, the kind.of thing that j

18 might bene fi t the Commisnion as a whole.

T-cuens I'd j

3 10 recommend it, but having heard it once already.

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'20 guess for my own pornonal purponen I've henrd what 1 21 need to hear.

But 22 COMMIS",10NRD DonERTS:

Well, i have too, 14 a t 23-I'd~llhe to elevate it to a public meeting.

I thought

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01 it was quite beneficial.

1

- 25 COMMISSIONER C'!RTTSS:

1 thought it was very

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GROSS 1323 Rhode Island Avenue.

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i Wasainnton.

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20005 yg (202) 234 4433 kA j

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helpful.'

2 CilAIRMAN CARR:

Okuv.

Suiln me.

3 Probl em wi t h you, lien?

4 COMMISSTONER ROGERS; No, I think it would 5

be a good iden.

O CilAIRMAN CARR:

Denl.

Next ttem?

7 COMMISSIONER CURTTSS:

lii gh -l e v el wante 8

budget.

A lot of discunnion going nround about what 9

the DOE might do with its program and at the same t i m <-

10 1 gather we're taking n look at what we n e ml to do to 11 meet the potential neques t ra t ion:

if it remains in 12 effuct.

13 I think i t.

might' he helpful at some point.

14 and even though a final decision hasn't apparently 15 been made yet on the budget, if we hava the u t a rr t :ike 16 a look at our budgetary program for high-level w v. t a 17 from a

broader perspective than just the I.f; 3 and 18 perhaps focus on giving us budgetorv estimntes. both 10 dolinra and fTEs for three scenarios that miehi ome 20 out of this discussion.

21 The first would be no change at all, which 22 wouId ossume a 1 DOS appliention and a 200'1 opening 23 ropoui t ory.

21 The second would be to a s i. u m e a two to tbre-25 year delay in surface-based

testinu, but Ih~

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CRos9 1323 Rhode Island Avenue.

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dubmission of'an appliention in 1995 and operatlon-of.

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Then' I guess 'the-third and perhnen more, 7

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.likely scenario' that may come to pass is i.. t wo., t o

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t bree year 'doiny' in' surface-based iesting und n,flvo

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to six' year. delay.in. submission of the application to e

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'7 the Commission.

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O 1i seems to'me ihat' given Iho constrain'to

.0 that we've got< staring us in the face, not o n l y ' u:;. o 10 result -' of seques t rat ion. - bu t t he t ight en ing tiudget i n-11

.all'of our areas.it would be useful for ' mo ot leuc t-12 to see whst the staff's resource est Imuten are for 13' each of those three scenarios and in anticipation'or.a 14 probable decision at some point cuming out

.o r the 15 Department'of Energy.

10 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Do you have 'ony rn, I for o

,17l when DOE is. going to make a decision?

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18 COMMISSIONER CifRTISS:

I run11y don't.

It's

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10' Greek to me.

20 Cl! AIRMAN CADH; I guer.9 I peruunniLty hate to 21 go tbrough "what i f" deals if tboy don't turn out io when you con go tbrough one of them and sp<t i!

22 he 23 over with.

You know?

L 21 COMMISSIONER CtfHTISS:

The adtnutnce or I

thinlJ it's pr" tty 25 doing it now would be that I.

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If we do, 1 -n. f n t: t, havn Io face.the prospect 3

.of-a ~ final sequestration, it seems to m e. that one of e

El 4-the options that we might 'nko a look,at if t h e r e ' r.

s 5-going.to be a-stretch-out in the-DOE program or-a

,G refocus on the MRS would be-to minimixe the impuet nr.

7 the nequentration l 's other areas i f, in fact, that

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'st ret ch-out is n11 but imminent.

I'11 agree to

'9 CilAIRMAN CARR:- Why don't 1 10

' call Secret nry Wat kins up und see if T can fint some 11 data 12 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

.Okay.

13 CHAIRMAN CARR:

-- s o that'we can work on it 1 -1 a'little --

t 15 COMMISSIONER CttRTISS:

Good.

I LT 10 C11 AIRMAN CARR:

-- more definitoly.

Doen 17

.that sound all right" L

18 COMMISSTONER CitRT1SS:

That'n floe.

10 CllAIRMAN CARR:

I'll do that.

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20 COMMISSIONER Ct!R T T S S :

That's all 1 had on

21 my list.

L 22 CitAlRMAN CARR:

Ken?

ll 23 COMM1SS10NER ROGERS:

Well, I

think the 24 topics that you've extrneted from the onbminninnn that

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p 2 fi we sent to you is a good place to talk about Agoney j.

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Some of' t hat. 1191, as you, 3.

. no t iced, ; s ome' of the things were picked up, some of O

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.them werun't.

'T didn't really put on the liut' things

'5' that I thought were routinely already.. underway.

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COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

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_g 7-CHAIRMAN CARR:

Soms suggest inns' were being B'

dono.

21 didn't pick.them up.

Some 'o f. t hom wers a 0

little' ha'rd to define and 1 didn' t feel like 1 enuld 10 get n handle on tirogressing them.

And other than 11 that. I think we got quite a few of them.

Thore l's -

12 ~

n.--

I t ried. to kind of limit it to the '

I think the 13 shorter the list, the acre focus,you can put on it.

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COMMISSIONER ROCCRS:

Yen.

Que oren Ihat !

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15 didn't see here that I'd auugested we might Ju.i 'ulk 1

'1G n littIn bit about sometime.

I don't know whether we 17 should do it today or not.

But I think that the kind a

't 18 of to and fro ing that we see from ilmo to 1imo i

10 between the staff and the Commission on whether 20 t h e y ' v e-understood what we've 4 a 1,1 in an-S Rbt or gl 21 something of that sort suggests to me that in a s e n a. e 22 we havete'l really mnde it clear to th-st. eft, oud

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23 maybe not clear io ourselves either, in a m e n s.- whot 24 our r gulatory philor.ophy reully is, beenute there j

25 seems to be some confusion from time to Iim-on s I ts,.: -,

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'"! 3 h h o d e Island Avenue, N.W.

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r .Ky%s L3-because I'm sure'thatLwe dc>n' L' all -five o f uc, iir f ou r-4 ,n j$. '4 ' ' o f ' u n ', s e e t hin, gs. exact ly t he 'stonta way, au w*Lprohnbly. g N JS', shouldn't' 1

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' cBut 'k would l i k n t o wee' si womphow ' t a l k f. n ,7 ' little bit about what we really t hink our' butilness-- ^., c. '8 .I t hink lwe ~ all neree on what i t ' n' a l l L o b o'u t, haciel y 4 -( ^ 9 the'public health ind. safety issues. But. exactly.how l0 ' 10 ' one. goes-about that 'is.n very import e d mot t er of. philosophy, the degree' to-which we ' insist on: 11 12.. prescriptive versua non-prescript ive ' regula t ion, !how o 13 we ~ see?the future of' regulation.. going. 1, 14. 1.think if we take a.look-nt j u r. t.- , the .a +s . history of the last couple years with the. commission,.. 15 js 1 10 .thut we really ~ hav, chanded the way w e. ' regulute, 17 subtly; without saying lit so much.. Wn roul l y..have } 18 been focusing nio r o on results. n n ri lenn on p ep p e r. F 10 We've been focusing more on results in the plants a- '20 rather than the filen or inspections or actions, 21 I' wonder if somehow we shouldn't 'hink c ,a; A 22 individunily a 11IIle bit more about what we really 23 think good regulation really abould be in th.- future. [ 24 We are n world lender and whnt we do influences very i, :

• 25 much what other regulatory bodies think about and ara e

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? m '! Q' p. Y.q ] o w >c .7 10 nw, ? ? ' '1 cons i derin g.. for-their.own future m e t 'l o 'n. .I've seen p t.;- 2 t his' inJay.viniis oversons in t niking > t o r e tf u l n t o r a, others of you have. v. 3. ns:I'm sure 4 .Wu, in a menne, do s e t. n standnrd and an 5^ approach 1that many other countries, e.s they move'into -G. nucione power commitwents'are'looking at an.modeln.for

7-their own une.

'Even we've seen tho Soviet Union,.is m: m7o 11 changing very. much their whole orgnnizattonni 3 strurture for regulation and I would like. to ser us 'think.n little bit more about this broad

t. o p i e.

I 10 11' know i t 's'

n. difficult thing'to get a hold'.or, but.we 12 are. in a nenne, changing how wu regulote.

I think we n. <( 13 'can'soe that, our degrees'of emphasis, lA 14 I'm just n, l i't t l e concerned that if we talk s 15 only about. detailed things that have to b* done, we I fi 'never get.nround to thinking about the long haul that 'is really very.important for our own. purposes und for 17 e 18 som$ nignals to the rest of the world. 19 With regard.to that, I think that in some of 20 my talku with our own people in the regions. I've 21. found that there. is a question about how dom m n.- 4 22 become n good regointor. What (oes it'munn? W-s t art c .23 'out with very competent, technically quollfied peop!r 21 who come to us from indust ry or from the universitiu-25 or wherever and they have to become regulator,. What P1 f, N'I: 41. H. C H M. P. L t% 1323 Rhode Twland Avenue. N.W. L Wnshington, 11. C. 20005 h' (202) 234-41:13

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~ 4: y. y t;; 9. r I e; q k " ,h i } p-4 if !!. 1 a ~ ! 11 .a s. O ]g,u ...u. .x > $@lpl what are t !ie 1 -does 'that mentC How do' th*y 7 ~ r . ;l I 21 - pel'ncipien that r,hould be guiding the duvelopmont of (ll# g[. [ ' th'o. future. people of' ' this Agency as they perform. M' .1n y 3 e s s MUI

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re gu l a t'o ry functnons?' Somehow 'I'd 1 1 k'c 'see, to us w i4 of time and ' ef fort to talking 'l' .0 devote a lit.tle' bit 0' about some,of th6ue mottern. T ,t ~\\.y 'T CHAIRMAN CARR: 1; wonder if thern's n n, s, '. L O,' 8' example of a good regulnt or ~ that anybody ' knows. l'

• N ' '

10-never' heard one-talked about. 10 COMMISSIONER ROBEHTS: They're 9hout an d L 11 popular as lawyers. 12 ' COMMISSIONER ROGERS: I think ii depen'ds. on - [ ', 4., l 13' who you ask.. ' 14 < CHAIRM AN ~ C ARR: Does Genern)l Counwel wnnt L equal time? c 15: 10 COMMISS10NRR ROBRRTS: .Nu, he's one of'our.. U f. 13 . COMMISSIONER ROGERS: I'd.be perfectly heppy 4. 18. to have the examplo of n. good regulator coms from. i ' 19 : wlthin t he - Agency. I don't' insisi that ii come from op i 20-Ihe reguluted communiiy.

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!!i l 21. CHAIRMAN CARR: Counselor, how much loewny I Mr 22 du we have under tho Act for the wny wo v n ; i l a t e u.,['L

23 Mif.

PARLER: Whatever is in t h.. croutive M. E* 21 mindo of the four or five personu that r ompm. t h.i r <.8 as body. .If you have a quorum present and a m o,,l o : its e E ', L i-S N R A I, R. C R O C. S i. 1023 Rhode Island Avenue. N.W. Wnshineion, D.C. 20005 C 4. : ^ (202: 201-1133 2:' >i J v. J 1

3.gg - 4.. ), tr 1 .LJ l vote that makes a policy and to necomplish that policy 2-in any innovntive way. What you enn't do is you enn't 3 he progrnmmatically supportive of the indust ry. Th.st 4 was made cleur in the Pner gy iteo r gan i x a t i on Act of 5 '74. !!u t if you look at a particular need, a factual-G siiuntinn, you can como up wiih whniever policy 7 approach that you might think would be best to des) fl with the situation. 'O It is correct it han nirendy been indiented 10 here that in the last several y e a r r., four or fi v+ 11 yenra ago, there were innovationu made. ror esnmple, 12 in the approach to training, to some extent in other 13 areas. Thut cort ninly has been a chance from the 14 prescriptivo approach to the non prescriptive 15

npproach, to Iho performance object it es appronch.

IG There has been a drnstic

change, at l e:it t ia 17 philosnphy, from relying just on papers, ours and 11 e 18 people we regulate, to look at results.

19 So, as long as you're denling wiib put1ic 20 henith and safety and ..ommon d e f er n s er and secuii;y 21 motters for the facilitien and Ihe malcrials, t tw ! Ihis 22 body is responsible for reguinting und r ih- .i t o m i e 2" Enorgy A c t. of 19fv1 and the Energy I?cornnnienti,o wt 21 of 1074, you have no limits to vour ima g i.. a t 2 un. et 25 cutera, et cetera, ns to how you can un omptit.h >nur i L NEAL it. G if 05 9 1320 Uhode Inlanil Asenue, N.W. Wanhington, D.C. 20005 '202) 234-4133

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ob,)ective.. 1 -2 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: May'I purophrase n-l 4, ^ 3 .'3 . comment of"one of our predecessors' Vie t or..Gil i nsky? , :l ' .e were in a discussion ubout. whet her we could.tuko- { 4 W 5 enforcement action when there was not a specific y] p GJ prescriptive regulation in place. Victor's answer 7 was, and.I: think it's a sound one, "t r there's any l i r l p j 8 remote = nexus to public henith und unfety, we e n n ' d o,;, j i r. J. 'O anyt hing ' we want*." He.said it in a rather s m a r t -- i in l lot of.trut.h' 10 olucky, 'cutule way, but I think there's a l'1 in that. 12. MR, PARLER: .Of course any t hing' you want,. i T - 13 it's ratlonal andit's supported by the facts..

)

.s .14 COMMISSIONER ROBER'IS: Sure. .15. MR. PARLER: That's whnt you meant and 1 1 1 10-that's what he meant, I'm sure. And 1

.n u bi agree l

17-with that and I've so advised the Commission-on .. 18' numerous ocensionu when l've beon sil1.ing here u n 41 h 10 down at H Street and in other places. c.,

l 20' Cil A IRM A N CARR

i guess tie rminni t y fron a '21 phi 1osophIcal atandpoint, I think we ought io nur 22 duty in to protect the public henith and S.sfety aio! I .23 would add my personal

opinion, with a minimum of q

24 regulation that dens that. 7

25, MR.

P A RI.E D :

Wel1, l've also responded io

.. i ..I., ' i l NEAT, R. GRons 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. i F Washington, D.C. 20005 4 (202) 234-4433 p.v. WLK1.:a

w l. 14 1 that question in th* p a s. t. h' i t h a minimum of 2 reguint ion i hn t 's. nilequo t e to do tho job to curry out 3 your regulatory responsibi11 lies.

Now, the Uomic 4

Energy Act for Research und Development Heuetorn, the 5 so-called 104

reactors, does talk in the national G

policy about minimum of regulations, but cerininly J 7 would think that you would never need an excean of fl r e g u l n t. i o n s beyond what is necessary to do I h.- Joh 0 that is called for, from the policy and the reguintory 10 siandpoint. Thnt'n f t. i r l y simple a n il sirainhtIorwnrd, 11 CllAIRMAN CARR: Y e s.. Go ahead. 12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Can 1 piel; up on ila 13 You coverI'd a lot of ground there and got into some 14 rnther philosophical nrcun. But in the he,finnin.! of 15 your remarkn you mentioned whether ataff rioju i re o.n t i lG memos reflect what we have de c i <had and of t en t ime: 17 they do not and I'll tell you for a spoeific reasen. 1R It's my u nders t and i nst, our voto shicin on portitu]ar ID issues are not s.een by the staff, only collated b. th~ 20 ED0's Offlee. I'm not beine critical of t h <- ED0 21 Office per se and how they hnndle those. P. u ' th-22 m n.i o r -- 22 C O aim I S S J O N T' H HOGERS: Al1 1 l u v. e oneeTul1y 24 thought out 25 COMMISSIONER 90111.' 4 T 9 nobody i rool:. t i NEAT H. q u o c. e, 1323 Rhole Island A s.o! u e. .h. Washineion, D.C. '2000* 2021 231 11::3 l

a cw, 'e' M, 2- .t >,1 4, e O v h f'Qy:g a.. s .o o. ,1 8

g, :

,.. :w 4 U. g g 15 f s qi l s 3.. y'.', "I, ' t h a m.'- A

.t g

- 2 CHAIRMAN.CARR: I: read'them. ~

v.,

3 COMMISSIONER RODERTS: I shnuIdn't' say-h[ -z, l 4 .riobody. rends them. Only the EDO at nf f and t he Coneral e s Rv 5' . Counsel.- - g* + e G' MR. PARLER: I rend overy'votnLubeet. + 4 i 7-COMMISSIONF,R ROBERTS: AlI right. .I'm sure g,g ,. i.ii, i .8' y o u ' d'.- But major program offiron don't road :t hem.'.. n g., ' 0- ,00MMTSSIONER ROGERRr But it atops' 61 a 10 certain point and'just doenn't ponet rat e down int.o tbo .11 organization. 1 think that's,a very good point, Tom. 12, i l' wonder if there's. nnything that requirro t hnw not, V,,, 13-to go further'or wheiher somehow we could. request that l{ ' 4 14 somehow 'the essence of these,.in

fact, does g e l, 1

11 5 . communicated more broadly io ihe staff. lG CHAIRMAN CARR: TT we don't make Ihem 17? .public, it's about the only t hing-we don't makr public e '.18 - in the Agency. I guess. ij 19 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: I always write them om a; . [. -20 if they could he read at the 1oeni a t r o o t. corner, with E -t <21 'the assumption thnt Ihey wilI be. ,'i 7 22. COMMI SS T ONI:H Ct1HTISS : I dur is that'- -a good f 23 point... I do think that the vote wheois reprewn! x t s.i, .24 probnbly the collective or the aggregate v i.nv n of the -) i n. p 25 Commlnsion and the SRM is the vehicle by which you l e ]. h i Nh'AL R. GROSS t 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. i Washington, D.C. 2000s f202) 234 143' f r' .( (

7 4 GWf., m -:t

m

'n 1 s s g,f 3 ' 3,3 x- + 7 ykp,. t,' 4 j f e g';* ..c. ': 16.2 i i-a c.' c.m 43 .I' collate those into ,a single; point of-Commission W 'O' guldnnco-to the. staff t hat' 'hns t o co r r'y ; o u t i b.H s e t U 3 of Comminnion views. t Y; 'i' '. 4 .I guess I'veLolways' felt.thnt.as o'mntter of, 5' not Just the ' 's t a f f.. but ' t he public understandinir, o ff G. ' 'w h a t ' i t ' i s that.we do nnd how we reach a ' dev is ion nr-i '7' go from point' A to. Point B,- that-it 'would' bc i: E 8.' -beneficiul 'for 't hem to understund the process nud the .n Y ,~ 9 collegi n1. na t ure of the process. To even go n. s t'o p ~ '10 further,'and to tuke the S1:0Y papers, for (anmplo, and 'l l' . absent' a-' reason io withhold them, togeiher with the , s

12' vote

sheets, just.put them in. the' PDH when the

c 113 decision in reached and it would explain, for example, 4

s >7'* '14 how. 'we get from the stage where -t he-utaff mnkes-a T / l15 recommendation on a particular topic, th*' views of t he

\\

10. Individual Commissioners, and I writ e mine too to b.. ~ L. ; 17; ' read.not just by the EDO, but there's nothing in there c ->.. ?. 4 - 18 ~ .that I'put in them that I wouldn't wont rnad aupwherr-19. .'di s e. But i t.does seem to ma that's a way to open up g ;E 20; iho procesu and for people 1o underntand ~ s

c 21' CllA1RMAN CARD:

Mr. Secreinry, how did wo 22 get where we are 3; .. [ 23 ST'ChETARY Cill LH : Well, I duens we got where , a.- 24 we ure'by ai one t.ime sending t he. vot o sheets we T 25 actually sent Iho vote sheots. lown io tbe s t a f f. Then ,br-4 NEAL R. G RO S e, 1323 Rhode 1sland Asenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 (2021 231~1133 , w $- -.wn,. .re--s-- 'Ay-w> m r --g~.g. 4

... ""%d7. T W 1 2 y

n:,

. : n, + O L .4 o m' "') ? ,.17 7 + ' j .1-arose a couple of situations in which it was apparent,' '2. 'that your. votes were getting out. And so,-becance.the. '3 ~ Commission na-a whole did not want its i nd i v id ua l' s-O

• +

4 votes.to be disseminated, we naked'the EDO tucutop the Y it, send whatever directions he wanted-E 5 thing, to. read ~ E fi down to the staff, but to not let your actual words go )% 7 . any; furt her than the EDO Office. .That was.the basic w 8 reason'that'we stepped it to the staff. O CHAIRMAN CARR: Well, I cun see one problem. 10 l1f it's a spliv decision,.the staff might feel, do we. - 11' have to respond to overybody or just to 't h e 'm a j u r i t y ? 12 SECRETARY CHILK: Wel1, we try to spel1 ihaL 13 out in the SRM on the. split decision by using first t. ~11 the majority position anying t he ' Commiusi on directc 15 whatever and.then secondly, "Comrcissioner N wnuld like 16 you to do this or prefer to do this or feel u. t hum atol 17f so." So, we do separate between the two t o_ some. T lH eNteni. 10 CllAIRMAN CARH: Counsel * [ 20 MR. P Al?t E R : Some of the stoff requirem*.nts-D 21 memornndums in recent months or yearn do :sitach the ,l ~; 22 views of a particular commissioner if that view is no t' [ g.(> 23 n part of the majoriLy iter t alon. The o n l :- n e'e J ! hat 21 I'm nware of to have close controls on Commissioner -[ 25 vote sheets would be with regard 'o ongoing lI i r 1 NEAL H. GROSS 1323 Uhode Island Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20006 p4 (202) 231 113', j G

Jt,.O v3 - ') ~ 'a 3 p i-o" L,,e .g . 1

)s-g Je; y

'i,. i 18 hfa T i,. 1J 1 adjudicatory mattern before the ' final decision.is i en 2 mude,' at lonot until the final deci41on is. made. 'E 2 3' ongoing enforcement ' mut t ers and on goi n g ' i nves t i ga.t'J ve .4 , mutters. 'Those are very sensittve: actionn.that if ~ 7 - there's ' premature disclosure of 'pos i t ions, it would 5 -6 .not serve the' Agency's interents woll or the.interentu 7' of those the Agency reguintes. [- 8' COMMISSIONER HOGERS: Well, 1 'wun.ler if we O. might'not-just revisit this whole thing. 10 SECHETARY CIIILK:. We could reviait the whole g I 11 thing. 12' ' COMMISSIONER ROGEDS: I think that th'e 13 ' ' collective-thoughts of the commissioners and the {, !"~~ 14 di f ferences between perceptionn I think are verv i p 15L 'important guidance to the staff and important L,' 16-documentation of our thoughts as a collegial body, T a., 3 17 would. tend to urge that we follow the General '18 counsel's. admonition with respect to nonsitive m o t t o ri. f. h/ 19 and. communicate more freely these thoughts. L-r h.

20' I tend to feel that evon if it in a split m

h 'l decision, it seems to me that if I want to know about j. l: 22 a split decision. n11 I hnve to do i-remi th" l. l> '23 publientions and everybody eine c a. e m s to hav" fi gured Y R, 24 out how the Commissioners havo v ot ed a l re aily. 90 - p-a "; COMMISSTONER CURTISS: 14 would ha report.d ~ 9C' NEAL H. GROSS k 1323 Rhode Island Avenue. N.W. Washington, D.C.

2000r, t;.

(202) 234-1433 n .,; ;l ' ' k h. r - e

7 py+ - m w .u. qy, *: y _v. J ' }Vj ..T n, 4 v.V + a

;,3;p'

' ;

I, jo- - g a, b, r disclosn it. accurately if'wetwere to 'l; more n,M CHAIRMAN:CARR: "l'guer.n~the -- h{V 3 4 j f 3.. COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Abisolu t e 1 y. Loss 4 speculut' ion and: V. .c -S C H A ! H'4 A N > CARR: .The impilcution 'Is, o f-G course, ' t hat our vot es are ' Jus t taken and whipped int o.. i OL 4 7 anjSRM. My imprension is we negotiate m o r.e over tho l-

f...

8-SRMs.nometimes than we'do the vote sheets. (g, o 0 COMMISS10NEH ROGERS: Thut!s right beenut.o 1 10' t here's another part y trying to bring t his Lultopot hhr, 11 you nee.- So, that'n nnother mind nt. work I hore Ihut < 12 -' -then introduces new elements into the picture. that 01 ..[. '13 'then ~we have to review to muko surn t ha t so:au t h i ng G19 hnsn't _ gotten distorted in the process. T 14- 5-CHAIRMAN CARD: I.cnn underntand ihe v.Iaff's 1 .e 1G5 concern about what we.really said in the SRM liecauso S 17 sometimes I don't understand' what we roally-said in '18: the SRM.. That's usunlly af t er we've. spent two months '19 ~ ..trying to get' it out, e 20 SECRETARY CilILK Figure out what it in, g. 21 MR. PARLEH: 10 nomebody has a.luest.lon y. 22 nbout what un SRM means, they certainly. abould ralSe p 31r

t. h e question enrly on because this i t, olisiinu,.

Nath M l. 4 q, 24 t he resource limitutions that are here certainly, I _. ) 25

guess, n e r; o s s the board in the legni aron, a raise y

il NEAL H. GROSS 1323 Rhode ir.Iand Avenue, N' W. ~ Washington, D.C. 20005

c.,...

'202) 231-4133 ,sq

,,., m, t,- w ,e t .e ., q ; e 20 1 .n t'a r t is'not very useful. ,2. CHAIRMAN CARR:- We can't afford 10- wante r w '3 manpower in the wrong direction. g.. [ 4 COMMISSIONER ROCERS:

Well, l' wonder if I r

5 could raise another question then that sort of relatet, G 't o ilIt s : t u some extent. That is, tho. niont to which t 7 we are bounu by the ex parte requirementn, it's my - fl impression that we -tend to bn. isolated from.the utoff 9. to.a degree which is unnecessary in many maliers.. I 10_ recognir.o that there are muttern where that'n quite-11 proper, that we should not -- 11 2' CHAIRMAN CARR: They're getting narrowed 13 dnwn to nothing practically. l'4 MR. P A D t.E R :

Well, that'n-the answer.

.15 'Certainly the point that commissioner Rogers 10 COMMISSIONER ROllERTS: 1 can senno S i m p a. o u ' a 17 argument. Be careful. 4 18 MR. P A RI.E R : Point that Commiosioner 'f o ge r n 10. has raised -- 20 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: That is Senator Simpson's 21 argument. Be careful. was particularty v o l i ci come 22 MR. PARI.CR: x 23 years ago because the ex p a r l.- r.i l e end th" ~21 separut ion of funct i ons requirements were uned n. nn ~ .25 excuse or a crutch to limit communications m o r.-

f., -

NEAl, H. CHORS l'12 3 Rhode ir,1and Avenur, N.W. Wnshington, D.C. 20005 (200' 234 4433 a~

7.;,> ~~ ff? e

.; y

[

• 4 :'

s' h:,. $p i 31-1: severely than they perhaps needed as a ma t t ee r of' law y d 2 or'desirenble policy t o be limited. 3' The ex parte and separation of: functions ^ 4 rtd n wuru revisit ed by the Comminolon several r e n r i. ~5 ,ago and except for contested innuns in adjudicatory or potent.ini. adjudientury .G ' proceedings; there is no 4 1 7 proceedingr, such as en forcement. mat *.< rs, there u rie. no '8 l i m'i t n t ions on the extent to which 'the Commisnton enn 0 have discussions with its technical. staff, f o r. m o t. i of l / 10 our rulomnking proceedingn are in formal r u l enm k i n g - 11 , proceedings. But there I think that tho common s e n t. e 12 rule 'would sut isfy legal requirements.

13 Obviously,' if a member of the deciding body

- ) .m -14 on a rule gets information say ex parte from o suurte 15-which is relied on'by the Commissioner in reaching his g proposeil rule, that i n forma t. i nn.should-1G' . pos i t ion ~ on a r 17 be disclosed ' and be made a part of the rulemaking w - { 18' record. Those are the hnsic requiremenin,- but 'there 19 should not, at this point, he any severa limitationn 20. on communientlons wilb the iochnicol s t o f f. 21 Obvisusly in the Seabrook proce~ ding at this '.) ~,; y 22. point, until ine Commission mnheu 'ils final l.wision. y. '~ 2:1 ii would be inapproprinte tu have non--public 24 discussions with the technlen1 stnff about the i r. n u e 4 s y j 25 that are being adjudicated in senbroot. i 1 N'E A L H. GROSS 1323 Hhode 1<. land Avenue. N.W. Wonhinyton. D.C. 20005 r' (202) 2M 4430 l g i.k,.

Wg.a :.

wp

/.x t i <g l s ue ..9- ;g, 2 L gy

m..

,~ r, r 1. COMMTSSIONER' R00i(RS: . We 1), I' tend t o' fee 1 f 2-t ha t. s s omehow the st af f 'i s ~ reluc t an t to uhnre with.11M 3 C omm'i s s i o n e rs ' officn3 t hei r. t en t at i ve-t h i.n k i n d ou .4 -issues, not with r o r. p e c t to ad j ud i en t ory i ntiuon, but-Sl Just~in_ practical matters that are going ta comn up 1n. n SECY; or somet hing-in the way.of a proposal 1sud, fl (0 7-prefer to get their thoughts n1together.und then give .E ' 8 them,to us. And then nometimen they're surprioed 'by. 9 our response. 10' 'MR. PARLEH: That may well be' beenuse of 11 history, practice, style or method.of operation, But - 12 1 would like to emphattenlly'utote thnt's not beenunc ,13 of any-legni requirement, either explicit or legal. Il requirement that would get us clone to tho IIsundary 15" line that we' don't want to get to, i: 1G COMMISSIONEH CitHTISS: Yen. My im'aro% ion 17 is ihnt the separate of functions rulen, when they 1 61 were revised-r e c e n t l' y, hnve bei n atreum)ined rir e t t v 10 extensively and perhaps to the point.where we've gene 'j 20 about as far nn we enn under tbe epa. ^ 21 liu t I do ihinh,

Ken, Ihat the p c. i o l.

ya.u \\ . raised may be a fuir one. I don't thinh

s a

i i D - 23 function of t he separation of functions et. 1 u' 1 21 COMMISSTONER HOGERS. 1 1hinh it'n come euI - 25 of it. I i l

11.,

c._ 1 NI: AL h. C R O S P. l*223 Hhode Island Avonne. N.W. Wuuhinston, D.n. "0005 (202T 234-4403 l i r J -- .I

,, jm 9 .f M*" Y yw Ms R py? A' .- e W.j[C",[m';g, l W ' 4,2 " f 9' v. 0;' }b ?j m,a

• Q y

w. ' p' y,. C c ,s

<4 I,1)' '

f U + [, ' f 'V. a n. 's[. [' e,..,, f 1 sv Ly?%lk @* A f.t <X , ^> Y mfi 5 F l.C+s a.. ;.,,. <;, - G{.. y, 23: l i, s. - t s m n w,.. .~u yQJ. A,i. 1 - COMMIS510NE R? Ct1R'r1 SS : Yes. G-M t-4 pl + ' +~. e w ~ '2: COM,MISS10NED ' R0GERS: Yo u [h n ow, ; l 't ' o, E w h y - l 0; R, n .,,.,,n 't s t a f f... .i n N i t s. ','. u f3i .io fj ; t hi nk i n g: and' acting. within, the 4c L M. 4 .,e s ,4 2 s -l -.,j K s' /4 4 irelst lonuhip'with Lthe Commisr.lonoru ~ llis lfic re61:cim tou m e e~ mm,,. w, av. ~ 9 a .v. / 1 "' T [E ', %,M. S 'diatanti . a + m v CUH'f1 S c.U I. it huughi. o n' l t he, [ p

6

',COMMISS10NEH ~ y[ ' [ f 17: iguent itin c of:[t he m t af f'slt h' ink ing - bef ore ;l hay' reached ([f & "~ 4 1 1, .H* tho. stage of formulating u! SECY pnper or, bo rore t Is e. w,yh *f ::, J Di diewn have been f ully duci ded ~ down ' in [the bo'wel A. o f ' x ~ 1 ,,,7.9 4, 10 'the Agency,; t.hnt :-- the briefing. ' rne - sis lo, L tiud, 5, m ..y ..w p. ; u... 9 < 116 last week on emerging < t echnien1' issues :was':a " uni ful f '.,-

M N^

' 12. 4 briefing ' for n' coupin ' o f ' runsono. 'l'irst,- wn; il o t_, n3 i v m sense-of what' technical issues i h e' staff.wasLlookin( Ej 2*.13 ; s M ^d, '

• 11.

at' right now ' that had not reachedstim point t iiu t ' t im q $n, ~ 7

m..

~ u

• M 115 ataffV had decided that :any act ion. wan' npproprla t"J ur 1

n 7- ~ 10 =necessary nnd~they made-it very clear at ths brrefing. 'b [. y e [ 17 Secondly,;they enne up and,they explainedLlo h y .. r t, -18 usEin nome considernble delnil ihe irisues. i n r i v e - fo r af 19 Dsit'arens that were under cotinidernt ion by~tho$1aff il b y y ..,n 5 l*, {20 right now that' sire in some ennen.reporied i n :I he t'cade dt m n,, ,0 ,..s s (s7 ',/ 6,

2 3,;

press andiwe al1 see it, but simpiy inok a '~ n l i e n out. l20 o f.. t h e si n f f lovel in maybe o p W ders.e.isinol ny soulW ' C ~ u ~N ' s20 he the way to put it. I thought that briefint - I !;f .my ,. + ' g@g/M';'rf ' 2 'l ' don'i know aboui Ken or Tom, hut i thouchi ii w in ihe yA

q D

- 25 most productive briefing for that : e ss osi avid i t ;< o t at '[ is 4 I Q_, y; y s ' b y. [ p ' ;N ^',t t L. m c.; t t NI: A l, R. GROSS V 1 3-1323 Rhode Island Avenue. N.W. -T2 ?s, 3.,- i Wauhineion, D.C. "000.5 E p f202) 231.1 C " .d b 4 Q %L "+ .) u i

n 'A e < w. s A

1 24 1-i t lie kind of thing 1 senne you're.rnising, which I's.t'o 2

find out nurly on exuet ly whnt 'ri going on. E 3 CHAIRMAN CARR; Well, lut me make a proposal 4 in' order.to move along here.- Why ilon ' t you't.ive.us n '5 ' draft: philosophy at'atement and we'll shoot at it. 4 hajipy G-COMMISSIONER ROGERS: 0kny. I'd be 7 ' t 'o '. 4 4 CHAIRMAN CARR: Mnyho we enn work sbmuthing 8' 4 D out of that. I'm not sure what we <-a n get out of it, "E 10 ', .but anybe we enn got somo t hi n g ou t' o f-it. In the 11 meantime,. why don't we revisit the voto s h e er t lacue 12 and~' ave what we really'wnnt to do with that. 13 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Good. 1-14 COMMITS 10NER CUUTISS: Good. '"~ , CHAIRMAN CARR: What else you dol on your 1G ' p1'n t t er? l 17 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Oh, 1 guess 11 just 1* 18 also reintes to the item,. improve internal siu Ittv 10 assurunce/qunlity control over Ac4ncy work. 1 think 20, probably I'm putting it a 11itle ton harshly if 1 put 21 it this way, but i don'I quiie know how e 1 :w io unv r, [ 22 It. That is that we insint on palpable, demonstr,ble 1:3 qunlity asourance/qurality cont rol program oT our i 24 licene.ees that we do not even think of imposing upon j 25 ourselven. I think ibut wo ought to 1hiok a 1 i i t 1.- o' I -i. l NEAL R. GHORS 1323 Rhode Inland W oue, N.W. i Wanhington. 0.C. 2000*i l202) 234-4133 4 jile

w 7.;; w y_ dl , y; r ~. * '< v q ,1 q 'g/ j ., q ' / s L)<:7. b ; ;:, 25

.y 1

. bit about;whether'thn' processes that'we? employ.really' [. ;: examine all.of the an't t ers,that ' r e l u t.e ,to-a 'hich g 2.' 3 qun11i y' product ' f rom < u. number of ' d i f f erent' di rec t i nnr..' '1. CHAJRMAN CARR:' -l.think'the ED0'n got nnme n 4 5~ .ongoin'g efforts'in this regard.- Why don'.t I lay on a G.. 11Ltlo;;brief so h r-can tel) us what. he' c doing f alone .o 7 these-lines and so on? s 4 V L 8 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Cood'- k CHATHMAN CARR: . Schedule that >in the nont u 5 9 t[

10

,futuretand we enn find out what's'geing on, 111 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, I 'thinh 'I've 12 anid enough for-the morning.

t CHAIRMAN CARR: Tom? ' }- 13 ,.a .si '.j. 14

COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:.

I ' m ' hu!.py ' wii h vuur g. 15 list. I# ~10' CHAIRMAN CARR: Well, let's look at it and i 17-get the easy ones out of the wny fi rs t. r n L_, 18' John' Ahearne h n a -- finished n book on' risk p ^ '19 communication with his panel. As I? understand it, J 'briorint 20 hr.'s volunteered to come ovJr and give os a (. [ 21 if we're_ interented. 1 ihink. risk eummuni.ation is-22 one of the problems we're going to bnve in the noming j [' 123 days.that we might want to get that brinf. I t h i n t. wo /, 4 ,24' ought to neu if we enn do e,o m e l h i n g.ib o u t it when we B P 25-nre moving our BRC rule inio the p ul> 1 1 c. We're n e V. p. NEAl. R. G RO P.S 1323 Rhode Island Avr nue. N.W. f l.- Washington, D.C. 20005 (2001 231 1103 ,e

e y f4 2 .t,... o o ',;~ a 2n c y, e 1 probably going ' to have to involve ourselven a li t t l e 3-bit in-communientions with the pubile. 3, So, if you all nrn ' i n agreement, we might li 4 ask him t o coise over'and -- 5 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: I think' it would: be G very good. get the) briefing.- . '.7 7-CilAIRMAN.'CARR 8: COMMISSIONER-CURTISS: Good idea. E 0 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: I don ' I. know~~lr you-P 10 other folks' have had a chance to 'look at ihot. l 7 - 11 haven't rend the whole book, but I've read par t. of i t. 12. . It'_o a very interes ting. s t udy. I hevo.some big 13 questions about the cost of the appronch t h[i t c o m e's ' ..y ~ 14. out of that study. It's a big item the way it comes out. It's not simply improving the way.you put out-15 = IG press releases. It's'a' total. system that has a number ' 17 of elements that all have to work t o ge t lie r in 11. 18-CHAIRMAN CARR: You'd like that. You're s 19 systems approach man nnyway, right" COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Wel f, yes, but.Ihere 1 i P 21 is a price tng on everything. ,i i 22' C}{ A I RM AN CARR: We'll get him ov r und find c 23 out -- r 24 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: 1 i h i nis it w ou l il bo 25-very good to h, a r from him. I s.... N t: A 1. R. Gross 1023 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. Washington, ll. C. 2000" (202) 234-4433 y a f

y, l'?. , '( f. W. l' l, ;,. ',.

• i ;

e 4 4 d Os 4 y -y 5~ p 'O [ r 1 CHAIRMAN CARR:- O k a y.',We'll do that. T m .2 : The next one. 'let's. look at b-the D '3 Jcommission's briefings from the staff. 1 ' irot' out, our .'ppendix that soyn, " Procedure for St af f ~ prowont at ions 4 n 5) .at Commi ss ion Meet ings. " I~ don't know 'i f we rout ed ' GL t ila t ' around. Does everybody not let me read you " ' ' d 7 what it s my's. I s H "In the interest of conserving time, the D following-p rcicedu r en upply to all starf'.membsrs - 10 ? presenting i n f o rmu t.l on at Commission meetinen. The. s M 11 presentatton-should be based on ihe assumpti~on '12 Commissioners have read the background 1popers and are t 13-

• familiar with the contents.

Briefings shu~uld cover 1e ~14 approxiantely one-hnlf ihe alloted Iim3 The remainder should be reserved for Os and As. At the 21 5 ~ 16-outsat, brierers should clearly ide n t.i ry Ihe fncos or ^ 17 the briefing, indicate whether there are any health or a q 1.8 snrety implientlonn, describe any 1"s t en t i a l-nw j g. 1.0 resource requirements, both personnel and. financial. 1 'J O "Briefers should nummarixo buel.niuund 21 history through empbanis only on the important eveM w. ,j 9 22 Briefors r:hould not read sliden and hoodoul-s e rl..t t i :n to-e- 23 und should discuss only the high points iv which they j 24 winh to focus the Commission's altention. The u 25 briefing should be completed within the alloted tim-3 Nf: A l. H. CROS9 i 1323 Whode Island Avenuo. N.W. -4 Washington, D.C. 2000r. (2021 231 4433 ~L a J

T lk[9T17"If 'n!.' -S c,G x' a y. 8 g' H. M ye, S'?(y.j;,;a c-,' s s a r [ y1 4'

r,.

.e' ? ,ef 'l- ~ 7 " me

, U.y

$ ek Y.,,,, I i i '(.' e ,. * ] ' :( aw ng Y. s < 4 ~ _ m y. T l? .~c u ;o, 9

1;.

,c Those are good ; rules. We-nught 14 f ed l ow - .,5 q:. Jh ~.7*

27

' ' 't h e m : cqhp S 1r

COMMISSIONER;RODERTS:

Vel u don'tl. .When i l .3 W,.,;. g; .4) Je?.that dated? 4 r .m.. S".y""O, '5: CHr.1RM AN, C ARR: 1 don't h' ave n d o t e.. j y 'A ~ i t 'g- . COMMISSIONER: ROBERTS: !!ow ' many. meetings p .'rf,, 3g s & ly ' 1 7-havo:ycu sat ~ here and 1.1atened to somebo ly rnad th6re .s' dgQ,f 3, slides?' Dozens, i f. n o t hundreds. to .r C! 1

1. , #4.',

4., ,..g L9- ' CII A I'tN A N. C ARR : Three plus yen'ru. 10 'E ' COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yes. &y S] 11 CONM1SSIONER ROGERS: That'u - t be "i uniaed

p. -

12

operating. procedure.

W" t'L- ..IJ lq-CHAIRMAN C'.RR: I like it. A 4a

1. l k e i t..

14.- COMMISSTONER ROBERTS; -I r. '15= CHAIRMAN CARR: Shnll,we'ask them to do. i t s I 10 C0'4MISS. 5NrR R00h'RS : Yes. .s 17 CHATRMAN CARR: .0kny. 1 think that'u a nood - H ..c 18 L d e".. But there-is some feeling that:.a briefing is JJ i so q '

19. '

Lere. to inform the public. I don't feel ihaf. Th. .s .;o s. ~ "t ~ 20 staff is' briefing us to inform un so we enn du nur I'} 21 buuiness. If the Iublic doesn't get i n f o rme.' then .m 22-when: they get the hundoutn of the br. fings t h< v an x; ms 23-rend those. But we need to case au mn, h Iime as we r,o lj 4 - j 24 can. So, we'll..i u s t ask the staff to t o i. e note of w .m I 25 the -- t; e e i f we can get back on track, t a

s..i.

%.p i NCAL H. GROSS ,['. 1323 Rhode island .h o n n e, N.W. l m, Washingten. D.c. 2000'. S; ",! ',. (202' 234-4433 n x ..y_b 'Ll. ? - $

s" 414 %,a.v3 ? 1 e ... ~m....; < m q 9;., ; & * ' / "lf,h'f \\, '$W, ' E + s r g; p; 3; r ' 0[ 2, .._'N -.j g.. '};c __l:.......['{ l, m. l r n /,. ' ".,_

e. f '.,.s. T ~ '

'l' COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Good, f I.

s c s s ' y4.h' .,']i CHAIRM ANL C ARil':' New/citem.. Clin y. . We'vc: i 1 hj-.., hn. 2; v t 1 a. .Lhe'L gency. p r'l o r i t i $s p $ s' 3' - kick.'ed around l ~ -A a 1 i l l. l e b i t '. m, 1y work,:but it's ;just.k.ind of something.

• , + -

' That? list nnedu 4 &, ; 14 .V. 4 e s 9. 3 r '4 4 w e '.l l-m o n t t o r, {pf, ' 4 l 5" je.a 'GL .COMM,ISSIONER ROGERS: Wh a t.. ' a r e et hu d a l s. : un '. n-y n @s '7. .those? What's the significance' of those d a t'e s?. 'I r 'I

n' a

-9, /c'N ~ 8, C 11 A I R M A N, CARR: .I t h.i n k ' t hey ' re. t

j.;. h,w

'f fp ; " .Di i na l dnifican t 1 abou t' rlght'now'sinen m,o s t. o f them are' A m ib - 10J pusued, butfwe'll'try t o upda t e < i ti und 6mi 'i f - we can ,p; [ l'l'~ " keep it 'in : a 11 t t l.e b e t t e r ~ nhope. S oum o f I h un ' n r e - ] ..y L,..6 112-n till' working, -but we'll cel it in" n - 1,1 1 1:l k b u t t'e r m, s

f. E

' shape-and 't ry. t o ' get. some realis t re cdut es' on '. whb G . t "13J p(k.; 3.s ;>: ~14 we' re doi n g there. But generully upunk.ing, tbut'n?what. Ll k l,), ,E at11 ens t~ wh ile. fi I'm:here, 15' T plan to'do forithe next L s ly y.. I don't knud did i ACRS' renpons i h 1 ii t i es. 1.;, ~ 10 [o. 17? we' send ~you the things on the ACRS out of.the ro r. * ...c .l -f U^ t 18 COMMISSIONER ROCERS: I don't have.i I hi ro v 'g. ,a R t P.a ' ' 19 ' if you did. [ u

k. h ':

' 2 0' CllAIRMAN CARD:

Well, it'n in the Atomic i

f h.

21 Energy Act. It's niso i n our regulations in 1.13. I ,1 .s. .4, i i t; whether we're r e n.I l v det'ing the i. 22 guens my concern s f 23 effectiveness out of the ACR'i and the ACNW that we t u, b;M ~2 4 "

want, fl u t particularly this wan an ACIIS inoue 25 Basica1ly it

says, "The committce reviews s.

sg, [' .y T j l I g N U A [. R. GilGSS 1323 Rhode Is,1nnd Avenue. N.W [( m N u n h.i n g t o n, D.C. 20005 ^# (202) 231-4433 , q u ie m-. [ o. . %". i., ; g

y" o M.[4 ~ 2: "' Sf W t V gr !

e' t

l

( W c,'.,

l pM 30 . R. : i i 9

#z L.

11 safety studies and appl i c a t i onis - for cons t ruc t i on.- 1.l ee n n o u for 'proluct306 12 permitn'. and' operating ,I g3s ut'ilization f aci l i t i es' and unkes reports-thereon, 1 [i n 4-advinen..the Commission wi t hf regnrd to the'.hna'ordu o. o s [ 5 proposed nr existing n u c l eia r. facilittra ' u n d.- the- ) } G: adequacy of proposud renetor' safely atnudardu, revieur ~ N-7_ mat t ers.speci fically L rnferred to i t by the Commisslou, n '8 including generic i s s u e s n n d p r o'p o u n d ' a m e n e n t s or 9 ~chunges to facility cons t ruetion. por mi t s.or opera t i ni,! : '10 licenses. Upon' request from IIie Depa r t men t o r [lin e r g y, ' -11 . performs' reviews, providen reports and advisne DOP' . i. 'q i s . 12- .wi th ~ regnrd t o the - huanrdn. of DOE nueleur activilles-y n> y 'and facilities." 13- .s J', f~~, ' 14 LThis one we stuck in as a Commisnion,for our .15-

predecessors.:

"On its. own init:iotive, mny conduct 1G .revinws of speriric generic mnitera or nueivar ) 17' facility sa fety-t elat ed i t e m s. That's r? o t - ' in t h e-18 Act. That's one we ndded. 19~ " Conducts studies.of renetor renearch und 20 prepares und nubmit4-nonually to the Contress a Nport l-21 cotilaining t he results of such studies." 22 Then there's n lot of spreifi - in our ~ 23 manual. But as the licensing business slows down. the 't, ~ 24 ACHS, 1ike any yond organixntion, tends to espand on, A. 7 25 "What do we do now that we don.'t hav-anything to d o '? " ) .l' l }- i NI: A I, H. GROS 4 l 1323 Rhode Tsinnd Avenue, N.W. J Wushington. D.C. 20005 [ u 4 (2021 2'01 1433 4 ,N

l:'Q. e'J flt;.f. ' . n. ,mx ' x: 7 .l tl Y,] =yy ' i s p,.= g r... yN-t e pg, 3l g. ,',.'5 "i' .(.- L '( "( ,] Ar 6 ' Qf.. .r t w y 4.;,. . + - . 9 g. g g. p x . 3li .,g g.g! 4 n ) ht f L ; " y '., l', @,4 . So,;I thinkE -Wand Itguess what' 1'd:4nk)y'ou, MF? , /,... ..+ ", @Q . 2; in.t hai r you t nk o n : l ook u t.c wha t ' t hoy ' re ' doi ng -and t nk.6 - i ye a, .0 a, p,., <, < '

3 "a '~look a t. what you ' t hi nk. ws. -.want.' tiium. ' o; do. and See. I T t

1 ,.y .c - t~ .4' ~ ' t hoss ' t h i ngs b u ro ' coi ne:ldi ng. - .I'm1 no t s u'y l'n g - t he y ' r e ' .,o' y Q';t i.. s .not, but I: guess f or ins t ance ',0 in; 't he fitness'ior j 1 i 5' e - 'w 0

1. ([

rGk iG! du t 'y Jpo l i cy,3 my. ' fee l'.i n g i n t ha t l s comm i sa l on_ ' pol J cyK t ! g,. .T'- t, i 4 0- R x

v.,,,

,' i I: <7 '. i sure t h e -- AC R S has a.Jrole t o. 'pi ny in-pol ley < 1 '.m. n o lq + 4 1 4

t -

M '8 ': t h a t ' w r;.. s n t. - 'I'm'not'trying to shut th m o u t ' o f, t h 6 t.. 9 e e s n, e nY' J. 9 ' beenuse'we'think that has a. role in safety 4 a Ilu t Counselor, have.you got.some.Forda? di 10' L, t < s 11 MR. P A R T,E R ; Sure. They canigivewny advied ] {, 12t ~as-f a.nin t ut ory ndwiuory commii t ee on 1 nuc luast ' un re t y, p L mottersythat they wish. 9 4 ..; e-11 3 ' m O s J. k I CHAIRMAN C A RRi And 1'd 1ike Ihem-tu du_ --I l y 1 ? '15 that~.

)

T t r., i >lG-MH. PAHLEH: I-don't know hot you ' would ^ t 'l 7 necessur.ily sort'out t ha t. f rom wha t i s pol icy ' arid' whh t s n nIafulor'v mlvindry '181 .in nat.' So, thoy cert ainly, as 71 19' committee, can do that. They have to, undei ' the 20 Atomic Energy

Act, review certuin applit41ionn for o.

J 21 nuclear facilities, of which-they are r m, and for ( s 22-lietwenn now, as you've already pointed nut. tu'

e. h u r !

[ I '20 of'those two things, you can suggest to t h e :.. w h > t. v.t r T .nqc. 2 41 focus it.i s thut the Commission thinks wou!I

l. - beat

't i b e - 25 for that. advisory c o mm i t t e.* e to onnist thiu Commission a a. r + e. .L WAt R. C H O ", n g F ;' 1323 Rhode Island Avenue. N.W. S "l Washington, D.C. 2000A [ '.m# m ( 20:n 234-44 a3 y E,, 0. y. ' < ? ! f. f.1 3,, e U U

~ ~r ' _{ O o s \\ s ~ f.> (., ". f l -l ,',,. ge,, ,. o,, yt s s / ~ 3,., s 2. .l 1- 'inJits work.- g w / D C ' i.2 CHAIRMAN CARH:. Well, 'l.guesn. tho' kinds of. Q t h e y '.r e there.Io adviso -i 3 ~ thingsLthat: 1.'would think that g ? e are o.; f; '4 fun. oni / t hingo 1.i k e the-implications of the' 1,aSalle ~! .i w. 5 . incident: o r' t he -- when, people-try to. reduce tho' .P 6 margins that were designed in t h. plant' o r. increane: [ 7 -power-levels. I look for-those people-to.bo q., Jl 8 npecifically.technlenlly oriented for; the t hingnL l! at - 4 s .9

we're not'

lechnienlly there for.

,[; j-10: tiut.nl1 1'm. s n y:i n g - in I guenn ~Lhow a b 'o u t o b t 11! Jtaking'n look, at it and if you thinn we ought, Tei. r A', .12 change anything, 'the way we're doing buninena, why,let' 9 i s.

Lo 13 me;know.

If. you want to make nny c omr.in n t s, why. feel-t <"N' I '14 free ~to do that' ton. F 1 M 515 ~ COMMISSIONER ROGERS: ,W611i l've junt.hnd 1 G lt h e imprension that ' bas.ically we look to them for ,j 17. technical. expertine, not for basic policy guidance, .q 1 'l W but technical. expertise .I hn t relo t on ta Comm i n i un ='. , y ,19 policy and practice. { 20:

Now, the Generni Counnel has enised on

.I 21 important question in my mind in the sence

f. h u t 'they

,} 22 are froe to advine us on any motters Ihal they I 23 perceivo I. o be safety related. That's more or

1. c o n r.v-" h 24 what I henrd.

2 P> - MR. PAHLER: That's what i suid. 4 I ? NPAI. II. G IIO S S 1323 Rhode Isinnd Avenue. N.W. 4; '4 X War h i ngt on, 11. C. 20005 y 231 1133 (202) 5' i

e;%e.a, d..l6 W. '. f, X 6 W

O y

F f ni .a

d. -.,,1 n-

.v u s '[.. j4g :.'w ' " w' p - h. ,3 y e. _u.m a ~w t l' 'd'.rg 1 r 3 a. s. [e.s,]i]; : ;'

d 't..

<1 gy < j.. O . 1 ' COMMISSIONER ROGERS: -And t hnt.'s-

prr t t y; or,

b ' 2- [ b r o'a d. D w LCOMMISS10NER H0llHRTS: it. is.l b ta t..

3 !.

s y M Arid ;I: think weifeel an D ,3. 1 L4, COMMISSIONER HOGERS:. I / 4 g 5- ' obligation tof-- it G CHAIRMAN CARR: Is t ha t. 'ti l n t u t o r y,. s,. ) ) T 's c7' Counselor? MH.. P ART,ER : . T h a t ' s. lm y' int brpre t ulionf o r 1'. 1R g* Se'etion - 20~.

9 of the. Atomic Energy Act of? 1954 ac m,

.E .10 amended.: i r a..s, y + h.' J^ 11, CHAIRMAN CARHi Thanka.- i

u. up j%

4 L 1-2, C,0MMISSIONER ROGERS: Well',

it'n-

.m y f. .a, x 1

13 11mpression t h a t..

we really have- 'a ~'v'e r y airong w

14 -

ob1'igation t'. listen to them -very c a r eTi' ll 'y Lon. o e, -technten) mattern beenuse they dre tho' technient .( 15 h .' 16 v experts and they are to give some. valldation, by '17-

contrast, to our own 's t aff' recommendal i orm IT.u l I

18-don't see that th"y should be playing a role i-n a, 'i 19 auggesting to us what our policier, should be. Il '20-seems more to me they should suggest tu us what o tu 74 4 21 practices ought to be. q,. o 22-I'm a ]ittle uncomfortablo obout the s -ln 23-direttions that sometimes I think AC RT; huu si as I, d !o y: - 24 move with respect to trying io i n f l u e n e.- the 9.- 25 Comminsion in what I think are uome basie policy x: [ NEAL R. GROSS 1323 Uhode In1nnd Avenue, N.W. l Wanhington, D.C. 20005 l 234-4433 1 ,202) 1 ~!

lff Nh? N' -f ( y,', p >. t m w. cs J -g r I , i <9, 3, s .-{,'.' ' r,( - t ,.(>+ ."t.'e 4 j}: 4 4g'y y,y. X :y g,' eg g 3; }ql 1 t + .a-y ~

m.., n.;

\\34 w -4 ,z,j e-jp , 13 " questions.' 'They're,. I ' guens, pet f'ee t lyL f ree <it o-de a,. b y 6, 4 h that', -but: 1 look t'o: them for 'iochnient Eexpertiso . f.. i q ]:.p

2; u., 0 3-

. c ,t

_ 3;

. r.atherithanLbasig philosophy with: respect..Io-' pol'cy. i R 16-s e we s hoi:1 d not' 6 void _/ 14.- 3

Cll A I RM AN CARR:

Welli s ~ ( 7 , c s f>3p; '51 the; wise counsel of good peoplo.- ~ , o, t .u u ,; G1 COMMISSIONER HOCT'RS: ..N o, ' n v %y, e s i };;/L' 17 - CHAIRMAN CARR: You?.ve got to: -pay',come? J . g:U ' uttantion1to that.- Q -B-v.,. , y) o g p. S.. G.o > C O M M I S S I O N E R C llH T I S S : It1 does uneim, I o? me. 9. 7' Fj' t ,: 10 7 ;that, _as 1the General counsel pointed.. o u t ", it'v' g:( 7r 7-11(- difficult t o L draw a clear line be t ween Ahu t 's opp 1'i cly e-j il 12 nnd 'what 's . technical. -The t'echn} ca 1 isauos t hiit ;we u.:44 s, 3> 13-address', for.'exnmple in the safety g o a l, a r e a ', puftake'. y '. 14-a look'at the-ACHS' le t t er 'on - stife ty goal and I. guess 4 115: you could extract ~some things-that tiro parels L- .. i p x

1Gr technical and some things that are policy. guidance.

1 i -- h y p' > + ' . 17-I t. seems to me that.tho..benoril of the way 3 .x a (18' the'ACRS operates now is really three-fold. Ono,'it's 'i 19 a fuirly uninhibited exchange of views by some folks d ~ 9 20-who.perhaps enn step back from the trees and look ut i 21 - the forest-and perhaps provide confirmstion or ' ),' .22 addi.Iional sugges(ions with regard to wh.at the siaff ',.. g. .- 1 ' kU llI'ojlo h i Il d.

1y<

j s' 0 ls" '. < 24

Secondly, it seemo Io me ihat on inmntian,

s t

R .25 that really full on the policy line of the spec t r um, .i t v t- - NEAL R. GH099 1323 Ubod* Inland Avenue, N.W. Wash ingt on, D.C. 20005 202' 231-4433 c s 4 l ,c 7, bi .t W2 'v ? (

wt .,. a m.,. ~ i < wms ~ x:- nD' ,...9< ..,a y;y < i * l ' i l._%. ,L ? ?. .a y', l s Qi~

y1.

4 wp ,f.:If,.,'.C 'i 5 7*1 ; ' M,/ s 1 thot"perhaps we thJnk thofACRS is lost.'well. qualified r

s....

.r. .21 t o nddreun'- 'The nnswer.to that in whop.thov send up u K,.. (.l" 3, s y [~ m *, ,'i Lthe;1etters, Just~ take that i n t'o account and redognino 'l ?d.':; i 1 ',t h a t Et h n t is policy o guidance. The re - i s-

n. tendency c.

w e

5'.

that11.think when we' look at t he' ACHS letier and t o' dyf' [

G J a umoL degree thu ACRS,lutters are ' viewed ri.th

'a l \\. y r y,5 ,7 . p'a rt i cul a r, pe rspec t ive, depending ~upon.whdre one comes N' f, j l8' d oiv n. They elther support whot you're doing.or tbuy + n. n they'.re not as'clent as that. But

0~

don '; t ' n'nd i s ome t imes I .- 10 t hey have. o'n ques t innu 1ike maintennneo and Tjtne'nu ~ 'i s 3+

11

' for 'du t yl asid ' degrees for operators and an f et y -gon J s,u

(

x. t aking(l some very 'uhurp pus j t ionis, f mayhc crossJng. ovsr N .12 2 / c,_ g. - 13 the policy'line.. ~ , 1 41 ; " Thir'd, it seems t o ' me that pa r t i<;u l oi ly' j 153 'ince the Of fice ~ of Policy Eval uu t l'un l was a b o l i s h e d.- [ 1, .] 1 G. nome time bnck, that while.that'muy not be a funelion O 17 that we want the .ACRS t o. perform all the' lime or'in. 1; w [, 18: 1icu of the Of f1 ce of Policy ~ Cvaluntion. -thai .Io 4 . 10' constrain their advice in that area. Where there may a' ' - 20 not be the.nhility to draw the line between tmhnical 1 21 nnd 1.olicy issues, it muy meon that the Comminsion 7g '22 doenn't get that kind of advice at all. k 4 s.-o 22 CHAIRMAN CARR. I don't suggest t 'in t m ,t n. '. ~ 2 'l. constrnin iI. I j u r4 t wonder if we cou!d fi < a n it .t .} Q. 25 little better.

.t t

.i N I. 6 f. N. ONnNN j 1323 Rhocle InIand Avenue, N.W. i I

! c Wnshington, D.C.

20005 7 (202) 2 3 1 - l<1 3 3 t h.',

p. . a mpe i ,e p u t;, v.

y....,,,

3 m m, .e u.g c h o, n!...,, i m .1 ,s f. .c ~ s ( s ^ e i .. w e t 1 t '.g,f - ,, p> y- ..a? 1. COMMISSIONER-CURTISS: i .do:.think.your. ,\\ _ < t ;. j' I' cc L2 l suggestion ree.e n t ly on focusi ng : t he ~ ACNW 7

6 e - 1.m topic thol j

3 -.

youi.had - raised, here ar well wns' exac t. l y t h e-kind of 1 .r. i 1.hing thnti will provide, 1 hope', some -focun for their N {j$ . gj

5.

activ'ities.-.It did seem to be^ spread 1Tairlyithinly.-

s-G' CllATRMAN CARR:. CounsAlor? g f 7f MR. PART.ERi .I'd 'Just :like l o ' point. out-- .. U'y 8.5 nguin that it'n' hord, n t. l e a s t - for me, to draw 1ines. S 9. between what is policy.fromLthe Commisslon atandpoint- + - 1,'. app roa ch : w i l l M.nN-10 nnd'whatLiis not. =The common hense a :' 11 care o f. a.. la rge percent age.of the probism.- nut you .a s P' 12-(huve t hat percent rige which remnins whleh t h6 ' common . 1 y,L. I ^

sense approach.wi.11. not. take enre'of.

,t l'3

k 14 L And as n ~ matter of

fact, under, t he.

d..,

el5 reorganir.ntio'n plan of '1980', which Lthiu Agency .3G operates under, whnt ' is' policy in what n mojori! 9 of ( ) decides at any particular t n6t 's i 17: Jthe Commission y 18' 'polley or in'not policy.- And'once o decision is mado,

19. ~

- t hat 's. f airly easy, but it's in some areas di f fi cu l t' [* 7 20-to predlet where a mujority will decide tu i!:nw I h.' 21 line. 22 cilATRMAN CARR: Okay. I suggou! we mm< nn s 23 to the next one, which is m 21 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Wel), junt let me U s 25 make a quick statement. [ l t i i:, (( N I.' A I. H. GHOSS l 1323 Rhodo Island Avenue, N.W. l Wunhington, D.r 2000'. J ? ' '.W. (2003 221-11'13 ' " ' ;, j.:. ,., ).y 5.. , O LL

2.aLVRp.. ?**'%, a., WW ,y- -n 1 -.., ~q 1 es, ,,t t. .,;f h

.7

1 y

')- I , f 'n 7 #i g t .i. 3 Q{fw A, t, .C o. ,s. 8

x. <; - s ;..,v.e g r

.a y

c. 3 s ygyy

y 37-p.

n;- c, ~ ~;py L. 4;: ; r 7' 1 CllAIRMAN-CARRt' Excuse'.me, sure. , ~, b'b ? M p,;:: m '2; . COMMISSIONER ' ROBERTS.: Don't : lone s i g h t., o f 1, f X.r y. i '.P 3 '. theofact'they're an advisory comm.i t t ee.- o .ty '/' ,.4 CilAIRMAN CARR: Right; 1 s u m,:.. m. g' { Q !$3 COMMISSIONER'DOBERTS: And'w6;may inhe t ive l r. 4 .c s y NJ i.G ; advice orfwe mny not'tukc~their ndvive, m. r ~ ,7 'MR. PARLER: - That's true. u m" y y. 8 . COMMISSIONER HODERTSr. Butl1 curtainly.'thinkL y>w, y 'and have-the ' bene fI t .of iheir. 9 ' we: 1should. t review '.1 t ' 1 (i i. cloone ' t o. foilow' l 'l Li s nanit her t ~ndvice. Whet her' we ,.c; J 'h i i..+ o 1i matter. [ ,l'2 'CilAIRMAN CARR: I agree. t L 13' MR. PARLER: That?s true across t heib oard,. n m .q_73 14[ evenJ with respect to: muttora for. p'a r t i c u l a r , g,p, ,hi 15 upplicallons that they hove tor review. A n d i nite rd',' 3 10 - historically the trnditional ACHS.l e t t ers ' on neuloar

s 17~

power plants-have just been taken as av a d v i n o r y; ag c ' 18 ' letter and are n o t 'ed no such i n the -recordy of theso '.J.. .1 9.. proceedings. So they're advisory neross the board. I 20: CilAIRMAN CARR: A!l right. The 1anf liu u e 2] I've got is the une of SALP grades. I've notic6d. I .g [ . '2 2 guesn, continuing in inerenning u.u-1

L i n i. In the Y

23. Licensees and othern concentrate striel!" on the ,A j f 2 'l Brades instond of the analynin report und readin s the JQ 25 words in the report. I've heard people come in and 3, A. s ,,, L - \\ ,) l g' NEAI, n. cRons i h*' 7 1323 Rhode Island Avenue. N.W. } Wunhingion, D.C 20005 a f202 2 3 /1 'l.1 3 3 u,,.m., ; A ? -m =..u t '

& nom;#7. i ~ y 'j', 'y ; r W. ,t,(_ _s

7

.c t 2 c 1 JL . l6v .I3 p 1r 30 ./'. Lir a > 5 43 3 j' sv, >i .l + ' 1, !8 y.,, ; y x 39, r t ou a talk toJme from the~11cenaces a, n d ' s a y,. " We l l ', gee,Jwe 1 &7 - r [x. h '2'

gotlnDi(G oria1 1.7," anEl ther average out :t he gro' den.

1 e .. a 3.. h; 3 r', L c,, ' 3! LAndJII. worry aboutithat's the,only thing in'thr'ssportsL l 4'- they'(reud. c 4 W' E", 'q.;' .5-Now I'.ve got.nnot her. worry. sineo' Ili C O '. s. a gi-A + a ^ N.' / - su l t iem'ent ' wi t h.t he s t a t e' ' k :i n d o f ' e n d e d up wi t h L s 4 L Pd, 'G-- h ; A: grades ns part of.the nott.lement agreement. ' So j; iuh t1, '7' 2' kl'

8 t hought7I' d. t hrow < that' in for ailittle discussion.

.I [ f - 0. - ' guess < my. cu ri os i t y 10 whot. du you thiuk wodId happeti is t 10-Li f Twe qui t. agiving the numerical. grades,.and j dn: you ff ij 11.

think"that's'n good iden 'r not?

o f*,) ' i-12 . COMMISSIONER ROGE3S: Well, I'think you undL ] . 7. ~; g.s,. RJf* 13 < somo kind of.a-succinct statement that allown you tw g 1 14I measureisome ~ progress in soms way.. Asid wh i..l cr.I '.m - n n t' q L ".,C ' c. .s y ? I ~15~ ilotal.ly wedded to making. every t hirig quan t i t ol iw, T do o q l value to l'ut t ing rough I lGL recognize that there is a sW, [ 0-17 qunntitativn mennures ' on +hingn to give-a 1ittie biI

9..,,

%~ t D.. 18 or guidance in interpretation, j y'+ 10 I.think that T'd pre fer to keep.the grades, i 4 6 1 N !"O but 'still humm1r away at the misuse of.thom vary [ 21 vigorously. T belinve Ihat tho pos.ition Ihot Choirman 102-Zuch took about two years ngo -- I m e hl 23 CilA1HMAN CARR: I think that was a /C 's 24 Commission position. We took that as a Commission. o .u 25 COMM T S S IO NT'R ROCERS: Y"s. W"It, he i NEAL II. CHOMS 1323 Rhoto fstand Asenue, N.W. W a s h i n i.; t o n, D.C. 2000's t f 2 0 '.: ' 234 1133 E g Q' -? 9 i- .g.- 4 1

i,; h k f. . ~, c ,'ad 'M' L s -@W,,, ~ ,y4 ~ .t jgW g [ ' E fM t- ~ 030 s .A, 'N;s l Ly .s y m ; c . guess.the state of' -i. y 1- ! communicated i t, n t ' a riy r a t e, - t o.: I yy m ,c L out( coricertis regarding the e s 1 3 - New D Yoi k wi t h. respect t'o f l%' 3, ,c useiof.SALPs'. Illwas excellent. ~ I? t hought'.i t' wam a; M 4 .very clear 's t at emen t. - of our ~ cone'urnn niid' howc w4 091 t . l,a L ', ,bo m, ; i ' s 1 3 5' ' abo'ut t he.use To f : t hose. grados for' other puiposes. 'and m m-LG ' made: t he ; po int tha t L i t 's' not ani l'n t ent i on t o' f:orun ^un' 'k:' . 7.. the. numerical-ra t ings themselves', and' t he. s t af f hus-p , s 0 8[ lbeen generally success ful-In -focuning .t hu 3,\\ L P.- 7 19' meetings-.on 'the . Issues most .relevnnt to, plant' 4 10-

ope r a t i'u n. -

s. s.,

'/ \\E ' 4 "v. 11. It's really the' same kind!;of ~ nn.isune - t hoi y 8 4

12

. INP0( rai s es wit h respect to the use'of maintennued-- <o s ,s -b: 13, ' t he: use.of performance l ii d i c a l'o r a, the misune ofithe ,g 14- . number instead of. get t ing ot' the basic underlying: 15-

ques.t i ons.

And' I thinkfthut's the po 2 i I 'i un ihai. TL 1 G.. Lfeel most comfortable --

7...

v. . 0 f.. !ho DECO

117, CHAIRMAN CARR:

course, 18; settlement.took all the above_into e f fect.

[, ' 10 ' COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Yes. We l 1,- l'didn't ,:p ~~ 20 read it. Put it does seem to me that there : s saur ,o 21 value in the numerlent ratings, althongh t hm don't .A 12 2 have to be numerleal. Thoy could be A. B. C. D, Lu! 1 i 23 just at any rato some categorizulinn thal pu!- 'hingu l s e 24 in some rough boxes and then one enn watch for some ~ p 25. prodress in some way other than in just vi r> fine i t- '{- n;. 2U NEAL R. GHOSS 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. Wa$hingt nu, D.C.

2000F,

_g .R f 4 4 (2023 234-14?0 -(r i t [}s

[i[ j. y\\;6 e 40 I detalls. 2 51y concern nbout the S A i,P itu r a l l o n, rat.ings, 3 is that I think we've very substantially changed what 4 those categories menn. And I'm n little concerned 5 about that,. because the accompanying document that G went with the Chairmnn's letter in 1987 that.lerined 7_ what the categories meant, category I, II, and III, 8 the wording in there is tju i t e di f ferent from what we a now une for de fi ni t i ons of categories I, II, and !II, 10 in my opinion. And I prefer the old statement. vorv 11 much prefer it over what the present statements are in t 12 defining entegorieu I, II, and III, becauno I think <f: 13 the changes have' introduced some new problems in Ihe r (; 14 interpretatinn of what n SALP r a t i n t< is, and in fact 15 have caused some difficulties in some instanceu at the IG Public ti t i l i t y comminnion level in the .tnten as to 17 what these things mean. t 18-So T've nuked Mr. Taylor to giv me a lil!1e 10 study on how we got from ': h e statementa or 1907 er 20 what the entegorles meant to what the s t at emen t n in 21 1989 seem to mean. I,just usked him for this .iu s t 22 yenterday or so, no I don't o;pret to hp v e

o p o n :. o.

23 But I'd raise the isnue of whethor

f. h e statement. of 21 the menning of the entegories in what it u t. nl to menn 25 and why we've changed it and whether we

r. ally or NI' A I.

R. CROSS 1333 Rhodo I s,1.. n d \\ venue. N.h Wnuhington,

11. C.

2000r, l202' 231-1433 W ~

. 4 ; s ' W " %m 4 M" .d .c n /:3' 4 s m m;,,,, y' ? ( g,~ i ' D,' M'

v. ' %,,.9 }

,t T / f.I 4 l' y 1 k n). comfortable with,-thone changes,.becoune I'm '<1uite 7' Rys f'i N.. h '2-uncomfortable with them'myself,;to'tel1 you Ihe !rulh. r g.s ;c_

b.,, 4

< 3: '.So that's'unother issue that retales to SAI.Pfratings. g. g. t '4-CHAIRMAN CARR: W e l l.. I '. m concernM i hu t. in . n. m : -S. theicase 1.lke' ' Bos t on > Edison ' where. t he i r 1 p r o f i t t,, if + G. you will, are going ltoihinge on ninumerical' grade on a ,,en kind of~subjecti've,- s 7. 'SALP. Many of our SALP grader.are + u '8 and you= notice lots of times. theyJare'etanced by tho ( 9 tigional-adm i n i s t r a t ~o r, Just af ter a

ntudy, he c

w" 10. Jdeciden i o move them a-1itIle. G. 11l< 'COMMISSTONER ROGERS: Yes. a. 31-m ':12c citi,IRM A N ' c ARR : 'And 11 don't want,them io be

y.

'13 influenced by. moving the-m a l i t 't l e', costin6 somobi>dy:a M. .sy,.- g4'7 (14: .1 o t o f money ei t her way. .And you ' coul d say -- you !G could use.it as,a penalty. 10 ' ~If.you move in one di rec t t on.yau can e rm i -?' 17! him money and say, "Well, he should h' ave listened to IR 'mo be t t er. " 19' If you move it the other way, why you say, 2 <20. " Gee, he really husn't dono that bnd. 1 don't se-any l o. 21 reason we should dock him," which puIa a c o ra p l e t e 1 o 22 different view on the purgioso that. we're u s i ti <t those r t 23 gradou for. s 24 So I'm k.i n d of worried about ihe irond in 25 general. Of cour;e, New York asked us and we > il s m ' L. -- 7 p< c NT A I. 9. 090ss $^ 1523 Phode-Island Avenue, N.W. Wnshingion, D.C. 2000.*i (202) 234 4433 I o I c e_ 'r

.:w,. m' 'S,' w", g g g, s ;. t a,- 3p 4 o m p. 3 ' w ~, > w l ~, !} 'l f d'I .[. a i?M V ' zgg.g r W m'J ' ;,'^

t

.42-g lQ' ' j. [ i s. W "lO, 'rbsponded to themland.they di dn ' t. do^.i t. We ilidn't! ~ k l2 Ege t n u k e d.. in thte :negotintiorb 'in. D'o c t o n rdinun.- 'y 3 ?They'retu pr_ivate ~organinutlon.- They con - mnkd kny j s se, ,,A ~ 'J ,.y: 7.{

4.,

J deril. they want. 1 Du t-1 guess: I don ' t :-l ike - t o:ibe:.a; a ,sq I M N' 4 5, party..to'their deal', A i i J I is'g

g:

\\ . COMMISSIONER ' ROGERS; , Wel1, I agree w I L h-j s w '.,,, > :, 7 you'.- 11 wonder if there is.any. recourse:to'the misuse 4 ' [, 8, of ourEfindings'b'y noother gov'ernmen t' a gon ey. t Lv W 04 General Counsel, could you comment. on that?- [t 10'. In there any - [ c .h? MR.'PARLERi My' position - J 9

g

.11 have[to: 6. il2' COMMISSIONER' ROGERS: -- way t h n.t we 7.* t be!frustratediin this regard?' 13: f 63: i on that' sub inct 'from 't h o' i l',

e 14' MH.

PARLER: t se ( l15-legal. standpoint. is covered as nn enclosure to 'b g W 'L 10' d6cument that has already been rornreed to, Former c. m q 17 Chairman Zech's response to the New York Publ'!c

18

Service Commission, Enclonure 1. .[ 7-S 10 CHATRMAN CARR: Yes, Enclosure 1. 'I y .g ' 20 MR. PAHLER: n u 't f o r. someIhing 1 i l: e t h.i u. iI ( a.. 21 seoma to me thst the initial approseh would be one of U y i t g, 22 dialogue wilh the responsible o f fici al t which ? i ?n .. y O: j'; 23' underctand ihnt perhnps i w" are engaging in to tha [ + 24 regulatory community, what our concern is an folks try 25 to do with the N~w York Public Utility Ciimm i s s i on e F NI' A L R. CHOSS E' 1323 Uhode Island Avenue. N.W. [ 1, WashinnIon, 4.C J0005 (2J21 234-4433 1 L 4 ~. 4 c l t.. < >

.s , 7 j 's e 13 1 members. It is cleur, under the Atomic Energy Act, 2 that economic re g'il a t o r y matiern are wi!hin ' I he 3 jurisdiction of others, not this Aguncy. 4 On the o t. h e r hand, it is also clear that 5 this Agency has the responsibility, the complete G responsibility under our strueture, for regulatin!r 7 public health and safety matters, radiological public 8 huulth and safety mattera for nuclear power reactors. D. So if you have a situntion such as in the 10 BECO matter or other mntters where we have a rntionnt.- 11 for belinving that what the economic regulators are r 12 doing con fl ic t s and' takes awny from whnt we're trying 13 to accomplish by carrying out our regulatory mission, ( ~~- i 14 it seems to me that somebody should 'spenk up, be 15 specifi.c about the facts and come up with a solid 1G ratinnale. If that specific approach niong with tho 17 18 general dialogue does not

work, there is i11 a

10 prnetice where wo

r. r e concerned.

Th i s i g e n e '. is 20 concerned about the n f f m; t of this prnelice on this 21 Agoney's regulatory ronponsib ili t y. It n e e r, to me 22 th"n

• hat there are two courses:

e th"r tu neek 23 legisintion, which my j ud gi m..n t Ic!!: me ,ould 24 probably not be productive beenuse it wonid got into 25 the area of federn!/ stat" alloention of powe r:. and i L NEAL R. CHOSS 132'I Rh oile I n l a nil Avonue N.W. Wn. dine!on, D.C 20003 ' 0 2 ') 2 3 't I <l 3 3

%.. d.,%' O,: 6 .g {.g '. N. -g.t j ' i ' -{ ; '4. I .y=,..1 p gip f', % W.y. ~ J s -Q;f: ' ~ '(', a? jfij-L ' f:

• ^ '

E g,. e q 41 Yv>:e, s %1 N 11 .ns. I 'underrtand ,it,. neunomic,~ 3 t r'ndi t ionally,- ,f, { $,( 42: regul at'o ry ma t t urs for the muut,part-buve'buen:a ntat6 ,.w jf y <, 3: function;' 'or' if a particulur' utility: in: being1 !.y .,1 s t andpoi nt o f: be i ngE pa t:-in r. 4.; E4' adversely nffectedifrom?the 3_, . p, 5; a' position so! that they- ' a re-.not 'in la manner s n. with. them nhle to. comply-with: .t h i s ' 6-

satisfactory:.

1 Agency'a regulatory requirements, .1 Suppose " somebody j 7 g a 0... A could initiate a lawsuiL. Il _c Typically, in the aren'of federni preempUinn ..0-e 10: in our'reguintory aren, such' lawsuits n'r e En4 t -101 dd. by ~ priv' ate party whose, int'erest ' l e, . 11 'the_ utilities, by the s. . anditbe government at-lenst up to thiu point. ~12;

affected, y.

+ 13 ' ' has not" participated. s..

c r.

14 CilATHMAN CARR: We J ),- lei me-o s li. your i L15 opinion. .How about we ask the staff to'take a nhort' 1G-look.at the pros und. conn-of doing away with the e 17 grades and if they have any alternatiye suggestien tn ' 18 ; necomplish the job.to. send un a little short p i o <. r. o' r-big long' study,ut.of ~, 19 paper? I don't want to make /.y 20 thin, but if there's somethine that t h e r..+ n e e i 4nc 9,,; 4 o ,e ..'.b-4', t.l7 / 'lK does the SAI.P process function in n'dny to dny way. ,b ' 2.

quent.lonn

't hnt have to ' du wi th the gradini! und the i s i W 'y -3 body -of. 'I h e report is ignore-because' the. grade <. L 4 4. capsul ' r.e whe t it.i s.that we'vo-said 1 i' l'h o. r ep o r t.. st 1 o m' Y '5, ~ IN n 's po i n t about the definition of.the en tecortes. and i. J+1 G - t hn ques t ion nbout - who t her weve gut enough 'cu( olfor lyc m< anb three' The [, 17. fu distinguish with

one, two 1

y 8' questlun's been rained before about-thi - un i form i ty.o f I y 9 ' the SALP.proceas.between tlye.regione. I guess T'm no t - nure how 1onn tho l' A f.P - -f 10

• process 'hna been in etfeet or whetherL we' ve over.

taken a look n 't. how it'n s tepped. back and. said 12 o 1 13 functioning. Maybe the time has come to'do t h a t.. (( n 14-I'm 'not sure from.the:nthndpoint n ! g r a d i n g. .[ 1

15:

that'I've got'a position on t h a t '. In fact. T'm'nurn ;T j 10 don't at Ihis point. It does seem io me i ha L' If th. 5 17 grndes are. in' fact, leading to people not readingthe -10 reports and getting at the problems thJt

w. 4 's, j

,t .t '19 ' identified in the reports, maybe that's somoihing that l '20' enn move it in the right direction. 4 21 The second q'uenIion ihat, of enurne, comes 22 up in the cont"xt of t hi Ilgro n g i o o nm n t i. t h.i t t, e L .f 23 T've been concerned about in a broader way. The use 24 of SALp ocoren is only one exnmple of instanc 9 wher-r je t f 2 T3 either through fuel adjustment clauses or capacity '.i lN A '. NEA'. D. 000 ' p s l'123 Rhode Tcland Avenue, N.W. T Washington, D.C. '! 0 0 0 Pi W' 2 (202) 234 1433 %Ig. m. '} 'pf, +

w wy., m. 1:w, m

w a g g a m w p~;

c, v + '...q. 4 qm 9 2 a n &T[.;g _ % j T ' ^ ' y ',,9 m qe

n. y 937.-.

s ve ; n n. /6 .y m s ,,,e n y'I .eG@ W' li ' , l ev61 s 'o f. une of performance l'nd i ca t o rs, ci t 1's eemt, t o L 9 {p $,M '.,, /.p;.. '2 ' ~ me thht,. we Lough t ' Lt o J taku. u ' cu ru ful 1nok at junI wiin tf s e bb i : i t'~ g.Jp 3: goingLon;o.ut lhere. iThese issues ~ crop up periodicall'y p.. y, s,J. 4:

niid i i t(s eemn t o' ~ me at thjs' po i n L' thnt we.. tend. lo,

~ as. gm 'S ~5' ' address them'in a; case by case'or~an ad hoc wny, i r "m 11aybe the thing.that we need 1o do'n et er t h. : .C 1 y >7-a t of f ' comes ' back with its-feport in Jnnunry', on the 4 .. u.. subject,isL to. "si t down und~ soc if in the whole r'a n gu .,.lU. w- , 18.. v i l fi i 9' L off what7 we' vo. called. performance. and eivi1 r6gulatl'on' ,,m y .i 'f,f

10 there's enough there to entablish n Comminnlow polir.

m ,+ e ,. 'l l, t i l d o' n g r e e 5' 1 ~, with the General couns el ..t hn t our. laghI' l 4 7-m n o. ~ .~12. remedius areLsomewhnt limited given-thn naturv: o f 1 h'n s.. ,a ( , ' g ; i., e,' 13 problem'that we're facing. ~ 4 14. 11ii t.the fi rs t :-ques t i on in my mind i.9 should. i t 15-there be a Commission policy in this area rather than nddressing thone in nn ad hoc way an Ihoy omo.o p. If ' ilG. 17 .'t he re shoul d, n:uybe the-thing to do is > i t-down wi.th l

18.

? t he-peol i e from N11 MARC or INPO and \\' 4 RI:C nnd stari JD "J awbon ing. abou t the th~ing, m a k.- cure we understand o i 1 20 'what their position is and whero th"y're t o w i n e; rrn n j ' 21-on some of these issus. To the "<t"n! that w" can m. m. 22 formulato a policy, com'e up wi!h some i 1 23 CllAIRMAN CARD: I don't

1. n %

that N A D i.'C hos i ec "'21 taken a position. L 25 fla ve they, Kon? t l NI' A l-H. CHOSS 1323 Rh..de Island Avenue, N.W. m Washington, D.C. 2000", .,d A,1 ~ '202) 234 1130 ,,..,,;f 6 WC < I 6 .; l

3kh. <:p

[

h. ( w y klg;jiij"w ;d' Y i'% X a

a. p p y 1.,,

Q-f, x [l 3, f ' le COMMISSIONER; ROGERS: No, not that.I'm aware

'!.

L g.M,g '-'

y ,of..

It 's a muttor that I want to tako up'--

,w 3

Cll AIRM AN CARR:

Maybe.we 'should help them 2

f ', y

) 7. ) E4. tnke a-poultion. q.4 jb'y. S' COMMTSSIONER ROGERS: - 1 w ri n i i o '.t aki-up ( T "G [with them.' We're looking at when the mor.( appropriate, T e ~ do that. Thu t : would be actiIt1e bit '.7' - t bn s would<be to 38'- 'later,.af t er 't he first of the. year, I believe. Mr. y ,f 4 q J' Karm an !nnd I hnyn.been. talking about t ry i ngl;t o ?mnk'c .,[w},7 ,W 10-o.- my ; mak.ing a presentat ion t o a.N ARl'C mer t i n g. t he 11 full-blown. meeting, on NRC'u concerns on s o m'o of'thenu [ l12 ! matters.' 'We've.been just feeling our. way along. a '>? T" 13; little bit io gel n senne of whnt the inuues are I h' t a a ' k-"~ . l 'l -.> we.want .t.o pres en t. t he re. .I think.I'd -l ike Some i 15' guidance from my fellow Comm.issioners 1G C11 AIRMAN CARR: I guess we c ou l d 'e'ie r e i s +- ,17 our prerogatives nnd show up with five votes, riuht' 18 COMMISSIONER ROGERS: Yes. ( LIO: COMMISSIONER CURTISS: The report from tbo ..c-20

staff, I think, is due January 1"th, which i-rich +

,T 21 be fore the n m

t probl+m pinnt briefing

.imont 9. 22 certain that they'll Lake into account th" vetu 23 arrangement because ii's the most evideni und mont a N. 2l recent example where I think it s.t r " I c h e s t 1. " u :, o of I 25 performanc.- indicators and " ALPS Io the poiof whei" y ' it, _ t. ' -, E NEAL R. GROSS 1323 Hhode lutand Avenue, \\'. W. y,, Washington, D.C. 20005 4, (202) 231 1433 f <E i + y; u.

?,5. j: gi;. cc. 6 >J1' N: f W 1, 4 .m 9.; s fie,4 ., p p ;- ; g, 4., -t-1 -O -' $ O.I'[4.s ( f ;' ' 3 (c,7

p

,p s ,e ~ I ' l. 1 s. 8 '.J ,p Ii [, g ' v.g ',m4 18 w 5 <.A l 5- -t y.. p}lg i:" - 1: while ili may be*dif ficult to. ident ify ;iust; what l 't. ' i s ~ iR ; lg/ thut. 1 wo-don't ;11ko' 'obou t(.that,' t he. ro ' n u o m o l h.i n t!! ~ 3 eu-m '~'e

ly.. t.- ';

3. qvinceral,.,but T think wo all f oo l' dredt'es., t h r: i ,, r. ; l "l 4.s - pot en t i n1. fo r? abuse ' i nl n procesc111 ko t ha t. 1;.;j j g' ' q o [{ 5 Maybe tho t hing ' t o' do-is when -we 'gnt ' t he 's ^~ c',b du-6 st uf f's. report in.innunry, to,uit d ow n ?. w i t h. t h e m and W.,. , 7 t G. ' 7.i in a-meeting-talk about this andi see iffthere's a'neod i . s 4 f N.'L

• I 8

't o' formulat e lu ' pol icy and~then:.nppronch.- 'w i '. i k_ . CHAIRMAN-CARR: ;0kny. Why. den't we buvo it' p> $ 'j g %:4 10 .like-thnt. t ,1 Y: 11s

COMMTSSIONER-CUHTISS::

Okny. , 3. ;e .12 COMMISSIONER' ROGERS:: Yes. c

(

,s. .13 ' Cll A I RM A N; C A RR : Any problem?- / ?l4 ' .Any-oiher l'tems? ~ 15'l COMMISSIONTR. ROGERS: l'ibink w"'ve had ri '1 G ; good. meeting. 17 C11 A T RM AN ' C A R R : We st'und udjourned. E 18 (Whereulion, at 0:28 a.m., Ihe abovo entit1ed H h' -10 mntier won concluded.) L r: R 20 g p ,6 T... .a. Eo ti re ,<em; .o. I; Y. 23, ? r MO -34 cc '25 p. i l h', N P a l. H. GROSS 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. 4 f Wunhincton, D.C. 20005 l

t..

'202) 234-4433 m '} l s b (,f u * (. 4 ; }

F i: ~ e e e e r e CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER This is to certify that the attached events of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission entitled: TITLE OF MEETING: COLLEGIAL DISCUSSION OF ITEMS OF COMMISS7CNER INTEREST PLACE OF MEETING: ROCKVILLE, MARY @ DATE OF MEETING: OCTOBER 31, 1989 were t'ranscribed by me. I further certify that said transcription is accurate and complete, to the best of my ability, and that the \\ transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing events. j LU t. s) f'

• Reporter's name:

Peter Lynch l i l NEAL R. GROSS COURT RIPORTERS AND TRAN$CRIBERS 1323 RMODE ISLAND AVENUE H.W. (202) m m WASHMOTON. 0.C. 2oo05 (202) 232 4 600

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. _ _ _ _ _ _. _ __ i \\ NbdddkNW8W$h6h8%@dWhdWWd@@dWdWggggg 1 'TP.AHSMITTAL TO: Document Control Desk, 016 Phillips f ADVANCEO COPY TO: The Public Document Room l ///3/N i ll DATE: FROM: SECY Correspondence & Records Branch i i L Attached are copies of a Commission meeting transcript and related meeting i: i document (s). They are being forwarded for entry on the Daily Accession List and L' ! Ll placement in the Public Document Room. No other distribution is requested or 2 required. 4: hA eM b /7 /-st'. . l Meeting

Title:

l 8xd D h l h Meeting Date: /0/4//P#7 Open N Closed l t i C ll t t Item Descriptior.*: Copies Advanced DCS 's Cop,y, to POR o L 9l l [

1. TRANSCRIPT 1

1 l ,l l l l 2. j t l ', 2 3. l. T t 4. t -e t f 4 i 1 5. 1 i 1 I 1 7 . = - g- -. ~. 2 22

• POR is advanced one copy of each document, two of each SECY paper.

22 C&R Branch files the original transcript, with attachments, without SECY 0' FoN, y papers. g it KHhKKKhYlHKKK.KKKhwKKKKh1EKKHhvwKmwnKK6 .}}