ML19322C860
| ML19322C860 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 08/23/1979 |
| From: | Folsom F, Knop R NRC - NRC THREE MILE ISLAND TASK FORCE, NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION III) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 8001290060 | |
| Download: ML19322C860 (80) | |
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August 23, 1979 Pages- ' 17-8 0 '-
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(202)347 3700 ACE - FEDER, L REPORTERS,INC.-
Official' Reporters
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444 North Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 20001 NAT ONWIDE COVERAGE DAILY [hM g
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
3 IN THE MATTER OF:
4 THREE MILE ISLAND 5
SPECIAL INGUIRY GROUP 6
7
. INTERVIEW 8
OF 9
RICHARD C. KNOP 10 11 Glen Ellyn, Illinois 12 August 23, 1979 13 The interview commenced at 9:00 a.m. on August 23, 14 1979, in Room 3, Building 4, 799 Roosevelt Avenue, Glen Ellyn, 15 Illinois.
16 17 APPEARANCES:
18 FRED EOLSOM, Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff; 19 FRED HEBDON, Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff.
20 21 22 23 24 Ace. Federal Reporters, Inc..
25
[_
2 CR-6508 1
PROCEEDINGS HEE mac 1-1 2
(9:00 a.m.)
3 MR. HEBDCN:
Would you raise your right hand p
4 please?
Do yot-swear and affirm that the testimony you
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i:
5 are about to give shall re the truth, the whole truth,
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6 and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
7 PR. KNOP:
I do.
I p
8 Whereupon, 9
RICHARD C. KNOP 10 was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 11 was examined and testified as follows:
12 EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. HEBDON:
14 0
Have you read and do you understand the witness 15 noti _1 cation as attached to the memo sent to you concerning 16 this interview?
17
- A Yer.
18 0
Do you have any comments or questions concerning 19 that?
20 A.
No, 1 don't.
21 O
W uld you please state your name?
E A.
Richard C. Knop, K-N-O-P.
22 23 G
What is your current occupation?
l l
24 A.
I am a Section Chief in the Construction Branch, j
Am-FWed Reorurs, lm.
25 0
What is your current position?
3 mgc l-2 1
A.
That is my current position.
I 2
0 What was your position in late 1977?
j j
3 A
I was Section Chief in the Operations Branch.
f 4
Q How many people reported to you at that time?
5 A.
I think it was five.
6 4
Did E. Mr. R. N. Tambling work for you?
7 A
Yes, he did.
8 G
Did a Mr. T. L. Harpster work for you?
9 A
No, he did not.
10 BY MR. FOLSOM:
N
!?b 11 O
What is the di fference between those two men's y
12 assignments -- Mr. Tambling and Mr. Harpster?
Q f
13 A.
Ptr. Harpster was in a support group.
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t_L 14 BY MP. F.EBDON :
j3 15 0
To whom did you report?
fjl Vs 16 A.
To Pr. Florelli.
!E N
17
_0-Would you describe your emplovm.nt history including a.
18 Positions held in the NRC, andI this is iust a brief summary.
O 19 A.
How far do you want to go back?
t..
t1 0
As far back as you want to go, until you finished
}i 20 college.
21 A
I finished college in 1952.
From ' 5 2 -- let me make 22 x"
sure of these dates -- 1952 to 1954, I was at Hanford and E
23 2 s.
worked.:for the General Electric Company.
I was in the Army y
' Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 f r two years in the Artillery School teaching electronics.
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I went back to Hanford, worked for the General Electric t
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2 Company at that time, and I worked in various capacities
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3 as an engineer or in operations for General Electric.
I Oe 4
believe it was 1967 at which time United Nuclear took over
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5 the same duties, and I just switched employers aad ned the Y
6 same job and worked thera uuci t 1971, at which time I cone 7
to work for the Commission.
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My first assignment was in the pre-operational testing 5?
i:5 9
program, reviewing the pre-op testing of various reactors.
f tu ln 10 In 1973, I became Section Chief in the Construction Branch
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E 11 and was there approximately one year. Ano cumi.r h
F1 12 zation I moved to Operations as a Project Section Chief and 13 was in that position until early February this year, at which E
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14 time I went to the Construction Branch.
L t
R 15 G
What is your educational background?
[..
I5 16 A.
I have a BS in eJectrical engineering from Gonzaga E
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17 liniversity in Spokane.
3 18 0
Could you explain briefly the difference between
.i 19 an operations section and a support section?
20 A
The operations Project Section has the overall 21 responsibility for coordination of inspections to follow up i
22 on unresolved items and that type of thing, and the support 23 groups generally consist of a group of specialists that follows e
24 either like pre-operational testing or like containment. leak Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 tests or some speciality.
I i,
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5 0.
I would Ij ke to ask you some questions concerning 2
an incident that occurred at Davis-Besse on September 241977.
3 What I would like to get at as much as possible is what you 4
knew prior to the accident at TMI -- and I realize it i
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5 s
hard to separate what you knew then from whae -
i
' "" " " " ~~
6 but to the best of your anility, if you coula try and answer 7
thoco auancions trom the persnective of prior to TMI.
8 Prior to March 28, 1979, what knowledge did you have 9
concerning the incident that occurred at Davis-Besse that 10 occurred on September 24, 1977?
II A.
I dor. ' t-recall the specific telephone calls that 12 were made and precisely when they were made, but some time 13 during the day on the 25th, which was a Sunday,
-- that point 14 was refreshed this morning by Mr. Tanh]ing --
15 MR. FOLSOM:
It's perfectly all right that you should 16 have your memory refreshed.
There's no need to apologize 17 for that.
18 MR. HEBDON:
In fact, we have been going on the 19 assumption that tuu
- k was a etu.u.1
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20 told us different yesterday.
21 THE WITNESS:
At any rate, they called and they 22 notified us that they had a severe transient -- that they had --
23 and some of these facts are really hazy.
I'm not sure how many 24 things were known on Sunday and how many thines were know on Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 Monday.
I can't separate them, so they may be mixed up.
But
6 mgc l-5 1
that they had had a trip of the steam feedwater rupture 2
control system, and during that trip the auxiliary fe'edwater 3
pumps had only come up to half speed.
This had caused a swell 4
in the primary system to the point where the pressure 5
relief valve had opened and a transient ensued of blowdown 6
during which time -- I don't remember the exact numbers, but 7
I think it was 10 or 15 minutes after the incident -- they B
realized that the relief valve was stuck open and closec
'.he 9
block valve.
I don't know how much we notified headquarters 10 on Sunday, and I'm not sure who did that.
I can't recall Il specifically.
Our log up there indicates we called a Mr.
12 Schumacker, who was probably the Duty Officer, I'm not sure.
13 BY MR. HEBDON:
H 0
This is at I&E Headquarters in Washington?
15 A
Yes.
That was on Sun 6ay, and I don't have the 16 time.
And then on Monday we had discussed it with Kermit Witt.
17 The record shows that we discussed it with him on Monday.
18 G
Who is he?
19 A
He is at I&E Headquarters also, and I don't know where 20 you want me to ao from there.
21 0
Why don't you just go ahead and go through just I
22 basically a discunnion of the whole chronology, as much as you 23 can remember it.
24 A
Do you want to go through the transient?
i Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 0
No.
Fore the chronology of the investigation and 5
7 mgc l-6 1
review of the incident, and we will get into some discussions L
2 of the specifics of the transient a li ttle bit later. '
!F h
3 A
Okay.
Sometime during that day, we decided that h
n 4
we would dispatch an inspector to the site, and again it was
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refreshed this morning --
I could not remember that Tambling F
Kv Harpster was selected to go, as G
6 was not availabla
--=ut Me.
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7 the best, most competent person to go, and he was dispatched 8
to the site and he arrived there on the 26th.
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ft 9
G Why was it decided that Mr. Tambling 5.hould go ahead
{p 10 and participate in the trainina he was scheduled fer, rather E
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11 than going to the site?
r 12 A.
I can't recall.
Like I said this morning, I didn't, k
_l-13 until Tom reminded me I had forgotten that he went to school j
u 14 that week.
15 0
What was your perception of the severity of the V
16 transient at that point?
17 A
I felt.t was a very sevenetransient, and required 3
follow up as far as dispatching somebody immediately there, I
H3 19 if I remember correctly.
The event had occurred on the previous.sday, and we were fairly certain that they were in a 20 safe condition and that they weren't going to take any action 21 that would require us to put somebody on a plane immediately 22 and get over there, because the event had happened the day i
23 24 before really.
Am-Federsi Reporters, W.
25 0
Was there any concern in your mind about the fact
f 8
mgc l-7 I
that they did wait until the followina morning to report the event?
3 A
I honestly can't recall.
4 G
Just from your perspective now?
5 A.
From a perspective now, de finitely.
The requirement 6
is within 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />.
It is possible that some of the 14 ~
7 use that to get their hnuco in order hoteva they do notify r
8 us, to really understand and wait until the storm clears, i
9 until they do report it.
o 10 a
P Do you feel that is what they were doing in this 11 case?
12 A
I don't recall.
13 G
Now, one of the things that I have been trying to 14 get a feel fcr is how severe people at the time felt that the Now you've
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==A-16 transient.
Yet I find that a - little bit inconsistent wi th the b
17 fact that you then let Mr. Tambling, who was the principal 18 inspector go ahead and go to a training session rather than 19 co to the site and investigate the incident.
20 Do you recall at all the though processes or the decisions 21 that were made and the discussions that led to that?
22 A
No, I don't.
23 Q
Do you at all find that incersistent?
24 A
Not totally.
Mr. Harpster is a very competent Ace Federet Reporters, Inc.
25 inspector in his own right, and we did have telephone
l 9
mgc l-8 1
conversations back and forth between the Feaion and Mr.
2 Harpster, and Bill Little, who was his Section Chief at that 3
time, participated in the inspection on Friday.
I don't 4
recall if he was there more than a day during that week or 5
not, but at least be was there during that time.
6 Q
Was Mr. Harpster fbniliar with the plant?
Had he 7
conducted' inspections there before?
8 A
No, he had not.
I don't recall if he had or not.
9 Q
But you don't think that he had?
10 A
I don't think so.
11 G
Go ahead, if you would, with the chronology cf 12 events.
I guess we are to the point now of Mr. Harpster 13 acing to the site.
14 A
Mr. Harpster determined that the auxiliary feed-15 water pump had not come up to speed due to a binding in the 16 auxiliary feedwater pump.
I think at that time they had 17' discovered that the reascn given for the failure of the 18 relief valve was the fact that a reset relay had been left 19 out of the control system, such enat when the pressure relief 20 valve tripped, instead of resetting -- whatever the reset 21 band was -- I don't know, it's several hundred pounds --
22 instead o* resetting on a fairly infregrent basis, as soon as l
23 it droprel down below a trip point, it would reactuate again 24 and it recycled about that point about nine times, as the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
25 charts show.
And that is about all I can recall.
I do have
1 1
10 mgc l-9 I
i a list of things that we did discuss.
\\
I don't know at what 2
point.
He also determined that the quench tank had over 3
pressurized and caused the rupture relief valve to burst 4
The water from the cuench tank had impacted upona ventilation S
duct and insulation on a vessel, and sometime at the co i
nclusior.
6 of Harpste) 's inspec+'=n, we had the following problem areas b
g 7
identified:
determined the c.3uca the initiation of the Il of steam feedwater rupture control system, spuriour trip, make N
8 9
an evaluation of the cool-down rate, review the pressure 10 h
excursion on the primary system including the blowdown effects b
[
II on the core and ef fects of boiling N
on the; primary sys<nm L
12
- fuel, a review of the stem generator going down, whether there 13 was any prc41em with the primary, secondary delta P limits h
14 exceeded due to the thermal shock when the steam generator t
15 blew dry, the causes of the relief valve malfunction.
p f-16
~
It was initially thought the high oressure injection il 17 pumps maybe did noi inject at the proper point.
i 18 0
could you elaborate on that particutor
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t-19 a little?
20 A
If I recall, the concern was that. for some timo after 21 the actuation of the high pressure injection pumps, the high isp 22 pressure injection pumps did not show flow.
F.
23 0
Was this in all legs or just one leg?
.I R
24 A.
I can't recall.
- 1 Au FWwd Reimnen. kc 25 0
Okay.
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I think auttc a bit substantially later Mr.
2 Creswell brouaht up the concern, nearly a year later, on that 3
particular incident.
1 4
O Is the concern that Mr. Creswell brouaht up later 5
the same concern that you are talkina about here?
6 A
I am not sure it is exactly the same, but durina.
7 this particular inspection, this particular problem was 8
resolved to the satisfaction of whichever inspector looked 9
at it.
I can't recall that.
10 0
Okay.
II A
f And then there is an item here, containment annulus 12 delta P.
And this was kind of an action plan that we developed, 13 and we subsequently sent the licensee and immediate action U
14 letter.
!Z 15 Q
Excuse me.
Before you go on, the document you were just readine from -- what is that?
16 17 A.
That is just some notes that were made up.
You are 18 welcome to have them.
19 G
When were they made up?
20 A
It was that first week.
I'm not exactly sure which 21 day.
Or maybe it was the week after Harpster's inspection.
b ip 22 Q
But these were made up at the time frame of the 23 indicent?
24 A
Yes.
l Ace-ForterC) Reporters, Inc.
25 i
l I
CR 6508 HEER 12 t-2 mte 2-1 in I
G This is jdst a single page of notes.
There is.no 2
title.
There are two columns, one headed " Transient" and one 3
h'eaded " Problem Areas."
4 A
This was decided in a meeting that we had between
("ii 5
Mr. Fiorelli and myself, and I can't recall who the other 6
participants were.
I think it was Bill Little and Terry 7
Harpster, but I'm not positive.
8 On Friday we sent an immediate action letter to 9
Toledo Edison.
10 G
I don't think there is a need to read the specific 11 requirements.
12 A.
We asked them if they would do certain things and
.h 13 complete them prior to restarting operations.
Le k-14 G
Was that the end of your involvement in that parti-h w
15 cular incide. ?
b E_
m 16 A
Of course, I reviewed the inspection report that
~
17 Mr. Tambling and others prepared.
There was a meeting at the 18 site on the 30th in which I believe Terry Harpster and 19 Bill Little participated in, and a number of gentlemen from 20 NRR.
I have the libt comewhere.
21 G
All right.
I would like to go back and ask you some 22 specific questions.
E 23 Why did you feel that this particular incident was
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24 significant?
ho-Federd Reporters, Inc.
25 A
Because of the magnitude of blowdown to the point I
mto 2-2 13 where they essentially went down to the point where potential I
2 boiling could have occurred.
3 G
Why did that cause a concern?
Why did you feel that I
I:
made the incident significant?
i 4
5 A
It is just an unusual transient that -- any blowdown r-E of a vessel, whether it's BWR or PWR, 6
we would follow up on.
f.
7 BY MR. FOLSOM:
i't
('
8 G
I'm the layman in this operation.
What is a blowdown?
I vt 9
A A blowdown is the terminology we use whenever you kt have an open area due to a crack or valve being open and you Ei 10 LV-are dropping pressure very rapidly.
11 Ef t,
12 G
Okay.
I want to ask one other question.
Was there
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any relationship between the failure of the auxiliary feed i
r 14 pump and the PORV failure?
These things were coincidental, c.
15 relatively speaking.
But did they have any relationship?
li..
El 16 A
Well, the relationship was that the failure of the
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17 auxiliary feedwater pump to come up to speed caused the primary
,E 18 system to swell, increasing the pressure and bringing it up p
rI:
19 to the trip point.
That is the relationship.
pr 20 G
And that. tripped the ponV?
A Right.
21 G
Which then cycled nine times and failed, failed open?
22 m.
A Right.
23 E
BY MR. HEBDON:
24
[
Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
G Okay.
We dircussed the fact that Mr. Harpster was t'
25 I. *i '
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14 sent to the site and he conducted some work there.
Could you i
2 tell us specifically what he was told to do?
3 A
I can't tell you in this particula case, but 4
normally, if we know the licensee is going to be down a long 5
time, the main response you want to do is: number one, see 6
that the plant is in a safe shutdown condition; number two, try to determine as much as possible all of the parameters of 7
the transient, make sure that they're recorded properly and 8
9 the proper people looking at them.
But specifically what his instructions were, I 10 11 can't remember.
12 G
Did you talk with or meet with any representatives 13 f the utility?
A I talked -- I talked with them at various times 14 15 during this incident, or I talked with Harps'ter'.--I can't recall -- on the weekend of the occurrence.
I think the call 16 came in to a duty officer, which is normal.
I believe the 17 record shows it was Mr. Heishman took the call.
18 Now, whether Mr. Heishman called me or called j9 Tambling, I don't. recall, first.
Tom talked to, I believe it 20 was Evans, but I'm not sure, of the utility.
21 The only conversation that I know for sure, and 22 it is because it is in the immediate action letter, is because 23 I talked to somebody on the 29th to get their concurrence in 24 Ace Federal Reporters, Inc.
what this immediate action letter would be.
And apparently 25 l
mte 2-4 1
15 1
I talked to both Mr. Grant and Mr. Evans at that time.
And l
ic 2
Mr. Fiorelli and myself were on this end.
i.=
3 0
They worked for Toledo Edison?
g E.
4 A
Yes.
5 0
What concerns were raised by the utility =. a l-6 result of this transient, as a recoie of these conversations i
7 that you had with them?
8 A
I don't know if I follow what you mean.
You mean~
g 9
concerns with our denands or-concerns with the transient?
10 0
Either one.
iiv 11 A
The only concern that I can recall voiced during
~
i 12 this time -- and there may have been others -- was that when 13 they were getting ready to go back into operation, we asked 14 that they test the pressure relief valve.
And I don't 15 remember the exact conversativu,
~
r-E 16 testing it at power because they were afraid that it would 17 leak.
ib Relief valves have a history of leaking when they 18 19 are actually at power.
We felt it was important and they conceded to do,it..
20 g
S they did finally agree to test it at power?
21 A
Yes.
22 G
What was the advantage of testing it at power, 23 as opposed to just testing it hot?
24 Ace Federal Reporters. Inc.
A I felt that it just gave a better test, that was 25
mte 2-5 16 j
the situation in which it had failed before.
I don't recall b
2 the exact situation, but they had tested it at lower pressure,
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3 I think around 600 pounds, some number of times, as we had 4
agreed to, and it had failed once.
They made an adjustment u
5 on the stem travel, tested it another number of times at 6
600 pounds and once at full pressure.
7 G
Did you talk with or moet with any representatives
,[
lJ of NRR?
8 p(
A I didn't, but our people did at the site.
I may 9
'u have talked with -- I don't know if I directly talked with
((
10
!S them or we talked indirectly through I&E.
I can't recall.
l]f 11 G
Do you recall what their concerns were or what g
12 I
pr blems they saw with this transient?
13 A
I d n't recall any specific ones.
They came out 14 because it was deemed to be an unusual transient also, and 15 the licensee gave them a presentation of the event on the 30th 16
}3 as well as our people..
17 G
Do you know if anyone from I&E requested that NRR 18 come to that meeting on the 30th?
~
r y9 A
I don' t, recall specifically, no.
g Would it have been normal for your people to ask G
g 1
that they send representatives?
22 It is fairly It would not be a normal situation.
A 23 at least give him the j
n rmal to inform the project manager, i
24 1
Ace-Federet Reporters, Inc.
opportunity to want to Come.
7 i
m
e mte 2-6 17 I
G Do you recall any conversations that you might have 2
had with Leon Engle, who was the licensing project manager O
3 a't the time?
4 A
I don't recall any specific conversations, but I 5
do recall as a normal practice we tried to keep him informed.
C(
6 G
Do you reca]l any discussions with him concerning
[
7 the possibility that the missing relay in the PORV control
{f L
i E
8 system was sabotaged?
h Is 9
A That point came up during the investigation and
[1]
10 we can find no reason to believe that it was sabotaged, because 11 we do know that the relay was installed during preoperational 5
12 testing, as I recall, and it was felt that possibly one of the f-L.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
13 crafts people picked it out of this nna p:
nut we did ask the licensee to do a thorough review
(:
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15 of all of the cabinets.
There were some other problems.
But
[j Il 16 one of the problems involved is that the pressure relief valve h
f.
17 was. thought not to be safety-related at ' hat time, of course, h
{.'
18 Technically, I guess it still is, but it's probably going to 19 be changed.
20 Prior to'the accident at TMI, it remained non-safety-21 related?
F 22 A
Yes.
23 Did you talk with --
24 A
Oh, we d2d also -- I recall we did send a PN in to Au-FWmI Ryorms, lm. headquarters, I believe it was on the 26th.
I presume 25
18 mto 2-7 I
1 everybody knows what a PN is.
l r
i 2
G Was it normal to send in a PN on a transient such
}
3 as this?
4 A
Yes. '
l 5
G Did you talk with or meet with anyone else concern-f-
6 ing this event?
7 A
Do you mean other than inspectors?
[
8 g
Well, other than the people we've already talked 9
about.
10 A
I don't. recall.
We met Mr. Creswell substantially i.
11 after this period of time on some concerns that he had.
[
t 12 0
I think we will get into those in a little while.
13 Did you receive a memo or a copy of a memo f rom
[
i, 14 a Mr. Eenwood Ross of NRR to Carl Seyfrit of I&E headquarters j
concerning or describing some concerns that a Mr'. Gerry Mazetis
[
15 16 of NRR had?
I A
I don't recall it.
{
p G
For the record, this is a memo from D.F. Ross to 18 Carl Seyfrit, dated October 20th, 1977.
The subject is l
j9
" Davis-Besse 1, Abnormal Occurrence, 9/24/77."
20 Do you recall ever seeing that memo?
If you want 21 to take a moment to read it, please feel free.
22 (Pause. )
23 A
I don't;specifically recall, but I do know that 24 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
fir. Tambling carried on a number of conversations with NRR.
25
mte 2-8 19 1
I don't know if it was specifically this gentleman or not, and 2
I may have seen that, but it doesn't ring a bell.
f 3
g Do you know if the concerns that were raised in
[
,E 4
this memo were addressed in the investigation that was cond-f7s S
by Mr. Tambling and Mr. Harpster?
because I don't recall 6
A I can't say specifi
"I, F
! H 7
the memo.
E
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8 G
Well, if you want to, take a few minutes to look 9
at the concerns that are discussed here and see if those h
Ei 10 raise any new issues or any issues that you don't recall 1
[~.
11 having been considered in the investigation that was conducted.
L 12 A
I do know in item number two that that was a p
i 13 Creswell concern subsequent to this.
I do not recall whether L.
F.
14 it was at the time.
And whether specifically three and four
[
i' 15 were involved --
Mr. Tambling was the reviewer -- I don't 16 know. I can say I do know that they were talking back and 17 forth, and it was my understanding that at the end of it, 18 based on these conversations, that there were no further 19 questions by NRR at the conclusion or our investigati,n report. 20 MR..FOLSOM: Off.the record, please. (Discussion off the record.) 21 22 MR. HEBDON: Back on the record. For the purposes of the record, we would like tc 23 have this document. included in the record at this point for 24 Am FWwd Rmorten. f m. i 25 reference purposes. l i (The document referred to follows:) I
[e na % u unmo sre es D Avl S GeSSC. ,{ 'g NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMisslON gg gt), %- g-E ".* ASHING TON, 0. C. 20555 t '. I g..,***** j 19I g20 Note to: Karl V. Seyfrit, Assistant Director, Division of Reactor Operations Inspection, IE
Subject:
DAVIS-BESSE 1 ABNORMAL OCCURRENCE (9/24/77) Some areas of interest to us that are appropriate for the TE formal report are: 1. Potential for, and core cooling consequences of, insulation debris inside containment after a LOCA. If large pieces could break off, could they get to, and block the sump?
- 2. IThe3meratorir41elinWY1MipaI4agM2haiessiANN Erelated.
For example, the manual actions assochated with the }. control of level irL fd2Jguldlejescrdher! S 4Tha'n Wr W s' 58 Einn-tn semwe wl..n nc, hana:As yEsgEPer R@ MMiGaldip ~4 % n vrna s d.
- 3. MiynaiMfecisidMWMn~n6 Don 8Eraicfir'.i.cE1Eyithm Edur,iag.;the tr.ansient. (where and when it occurred.,,,3C pu,mp cavitation. effects, RC pump seal effects, etc.)htojdd,,,Dit hens 05d,.
- 4. AdEquibyh([3MapEtty' with regard to this transient are of interest.
For example, evaluate the observed primary side heatup against the. design capability of one AFW train. Also, the adequacy of the AFW ectuation setpoint (SG level, should be examined against the number of cyclic stresses allowed over the life of the plant. j C.. C.1' ? D. F. 'Ross, Jr., Assistant Director for Reactor Safety Division of Systems Safety / cc: G. Mazetist T. Novak Contact G. liazetis, NRR Ext. 27341
mte 2-9 20 1-1 BY MR. HEBDON: i 2 Q Did you receive the Toledo Edison reports concerning 3 this particular incident? 4 A Yes, the region did. p t 5 G Did you personally receive them? Did you personally f-6 see them? 7 A I personally s aw them, yes. E 8 0 Did you review them? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 0 What were your conclusions after reading the 11 reports? 12 A Outside of what we covered in our inspection 13 report, I don't recall any questions I had. 14 G So you felt that the issues that were discussed in 15 the reports from To10do Edison had already been adequately E 16 covered in the inspection that you conducted, that your people i 17 conducted? 18 A Yes. 19 0 Did you approve the inspection report prepared by 20 Mr. Tambling and Harpster? 21 A I would have to check, but it would be normal practice l 22 for me to. I have it here. i 23 Yes, I did approve it. 24 G You mentioned that it is normal practice for you Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. l 25 to approve inspection reports. What did your approval of that l l
21 mto 2-10 I report imply? 2 A It implies that I have had an opportunity to read 3 3 it and determine that there is enough information to adequately 5 describe the inspection report from my vantage point. { 5 0 What did you do prior to approving the report? 6 A I don't understand. I O Did you read it in detail? Did you glance through 8 it? Did you discuss it with anyone? 9 A I can't tell you on a specific case. I don't Lh 10 bl recal1. 11 g Would it have been your normal practice to review p.; 12 the report in considerable detail, or was it normally some-13 thing you would just give a cursory reading? 14 A Normally I would review it in detail. 15 g What was done with the report after it was approved? 16 A There is a standard distribution to which it is 17 P sent. 18 So it was sent on a standaru o__ G b I various and sundry peopler Y 20 A Yes. [.. f:] Do you know what those various people are supposed 21 g Is there any g to do with the report once they receive it? 22 subsequent analysis done by any groups or is it just taken 23 is h 24 and reviewed and then filed? , Ace Feder3 Reporters,Inc. There is none that I am aware of. It is mainly a il 25 A o i; I
mta 2-11 l 22 il 1 record of the inspection. l 2 B That would have gone to I&E headquarters also, ,..i f.3 sb 3 wouldn't it? Or let me ask you that the other way around: 0; E 4 Would that inspection report have gone to I&E headquarters? A (? 5 A I honestly don't know. Y Fe 6 G Do you know if it would normally go to NRR? ka C: 7 A I do know that Leon used to see a lot of our 8 inspection reports. How he got them, I don't know. ].]w 9 G But you didn't make a point of sending them to [$ in ~ lj! 10 'anyone at NRR? 11 A No. p- [. 12 G Did you see or discuss any reports produced as a I result of investigations or analyses of this incident other [ 13 4" than the ones we've already described? ja
- f..
A Mr. Creswell.had some concerns relative to this E F 15 that I've read, at least. I don't know what my involvement f' 16 was with them. I mean, I can't recall. 17
- s We'll talk about Mr. Creswell's involvement a G
18 little bit later. 19 L Were y u aware that a Mr. McDermott of the Quality 20 Assurance Branch in NRR conducted an investigation of the QA 21 impli ations of this incident? 22 I can't remember specifically. Bob has done A 23 several reviews of this nature and I can't recall in this 24 l Ace Federd Reporters, Inc. specific instance. 25 I i .:li
mto 2-12 23 1 G Do you know of any other investigations or analyses 2 of the incident that were performed? 3 A I don't know if NRR wrote up something other than 4 that memo as a result of this or not. I don't know. 5 G You don't recall seeing anything? 6 A I do not recall seeing it. 7 0 You don't va- ""J n y montioning they had seen 8 anything? it 9 A No. 10 G Who was. responsible for coordinating the investiga-11 tion of the incident at Davis-Besse? 12 A Normally the project inspector would do it. In 13 his absence, I would do it. 14 O So it would be an I&E region function to be in char 9e of the in" --'"'it 15 u Yes. y 17 G Did you feel that there were clear lines of authority associated with the investigation of this incident? 18 19 A Yes, I felt there were. 0 Do you feel that the investigation of the incident 20 was conducted in a coordinated and systematic manner? 21 Just knowing the expertise of the individuals A Yes. 22 involved, I would say yes. 23 The reason I ask is that it strikes me as a little G 24 i Ace-Feder"J Reporters, Inc. I&E was conducting an investigation. DSS sent some strange. 25
mto 2-13 24 people out here to conduct some sort of an investigation. 1 Mr. McDermott apparently was doing some uork involved with 2 this. 3 4 Does it seem to you that it is a little unusual that so many different people were working on this and 5 n apparently not bringing their concerns to you as the coordina- { 6 p" tor of the investigation? 7 i: A When I say that I was the' coordinator, I'm talking 8 about the week that Mr. Tambling was absent. Mr. Tambling [h 9 ? did have many conversations with NRR subsequent to his coming [j 10 k. back from school. 11 g Did you feel then that he was aware of these 12 various other investigations and analyses of the incident g that were going on? j4 y A The only thing that I can specifica'lly recall is [ 15 t', that he did have discussions with NRR to make sure that before 16 E we closed out our inspection over there and allowed them to p i restart, that NRR did not have any outstanding questions that w uld preclude startup. 19 g Did you. consider the generic implications of this 20 i' incident at all? i; 21 ne A Yes. We wrote a proposed balletin on the failure [ 22 ? of the auxiliary feedwater pump, which eventually came out in a mem to the regional directors, because it was deemed to be 24 il Aw FMwd Roorwrs, lm. [ too narrow of a problem to get the circular treatment. 11 L L
mto 2-14 25 1 As far as the event itself, the PN to some extent [ t 2 serves that function that, here is a problem occurring. The PN gets a wide distribution. Q 3 L 4 G But the PN is about, as I recall, about less than 5 a one-page summary. i 6 A Yes. 7 O So it doesn't go into it in any great depth. '~ 8 BY MR. FOLSOM: e-2 9 0 Did you dismiss the PORV failure as non-generic? p if 10 E 11 if 12 U [. 13 f: i 14 r. l' j-15 ~ h 16 f! f!- b 18 e h 19 1 20 21 22 23 24 Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. 25
l 1 6508 26 mto 3-1 1 A I can't recall the specific review that was made 2 on that. At the time of the incident, it was felt that the t failure of the PORV was due to the missing reset relay, which i 3 we felt was highly unusual and not apt to happen anywhere else 4 i j i 5 again. Relief valves themselves, unfortunately, are not in ) 6 that situation. And. I don't know whether the fact that it was [ 7 non-safoty-related ontored intv the thing. I can't recall. E 8 BY MR. HEDDoN b 9 G I would like to ask you some questions about the 10 specifics of the incident itself and the transient that r. 11 occurred. Did you realize du -ing the course of your review i 12 that steam formed in the reactor coolant system during the [ 13 transient? 14 A Before the inspection report was out we did. I don't know when I knew that. ~ [ 15 S-16 G What significance did you assign to that fact? h A My concern was to determine that neither the vessel j7 fi { nor the fuel elements sustained damage. Based on Mr. Tambling' 5 18 review of the B&W information, that did not occur. And I 19 don't know if NRR reviewed that same information or not. I [ 20 t F can't recall. 21 G Did you realize that steam formation in the reactor [ 22 i coolant system caused pressurizer level to increase while the 23 { leak continued? 24 While pressures continued to drop, do you mean? Am-FWwel Rmorwrs, lm. A 25 i
- f'
mto 3-2 27 i G Yes. g 2 A Yes. 3 0 Did you realize that at the time? 4 A Not as a specific incident, no. (-l h 5 0 I guess I'm a little bit conft? sed. At the time of i{ 6 the incident, during.the time or the investigation, did you -- [; k 7 were you aware of the fact that pressurizer level went up while G the IIPI pumps were shut off and while the leak was continuing fj-8 from the PORV? p:j 9 10 For purpose of reference, we have a graph here on ij the wall that was prepared by Mr. Leon Engle based on some p 5 12 reactimeter data that he collected at the site. If you'll fS l 13 n tice here, one of the parameters that is plotted is presurizez b( level, and it coma, --'Ay and tha-y _,,cem cools off. Then it starts to come back up, which I think most people attribute to the high pressure injection [ll,J 16 iE W: system. .W-j7 fi: At this point here, about four and a half minutes, y 18 they secure the high pressure injection system, and you see 19 the pressurizer lev.el start going back down, as you might 20 expect. But then here, at about six minutes, with the leak i:h continuing, the leak wasn't isolated until out here at 20 M 22 pg minutes, and with the'high pressure injection system secured, 7. 23 ,,..,z y u See pressurizer level turning and start to go back up 24 again, and in fact increases over a matter of about a minute 5 6 -k If
mto 3-3 l 28 i 1 and a half, to a point where the pressurizer is completely h t 2 full. And it remains that way out until about 35 minutes into I. i 3 the transient, at which point the pressurizer level drops p 4 sharply. V 5 t. Did you recognize this particular part of the h { 6 transient from time 6 until about time 36 in the course of your [p 7 review? uutms or that presentation. 8 A. No, not in su. 9 G You have not seen that particular graph? 10 A No, not in terms of what you described there. I 11 was aware of the graph. I was aware that they shut off the { 12 high pressure injection pumps. I did not tie those two factors P. 13 together. 14 g When you looked at this graph, what explanation -- 15 or did you have an. explanation -- for why the pressurizer level l 16 was going'up there, starting at about six minutes?
- ~.
17 A No. Il f.'. just didn't focus in on that issue? { 18 G You I did not focus in on that issue. 19 A I t Did you realize that the operators secured the I 20 G high pressure injection system before they identified and 21 22 isolated the leak? I don't recall that I did at the time of the 23 A I know that Mr..Creswell identified it subse-24 inspection. t 25 quently. I don't really remember if that was identified I Ace Federet Reporters. Inc. t
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5-mto 3-4 n. r s i 1 during this inspection or not. ^ y, _ (' 'Y. [. If we could back up for just.a moment,-I missed a *. '2 .G .. ~-. s .u....,. 3 point here.- condsc'ted.'your. review 'of this., :.q ;. ,i ~ .a ..s e a ~. .. +. If at the.c.ti'me..you ~ .'3*.,? *L :... m:. .w 4 .,rg h.N. v:; 7 . u.~ bl. .. '~
- ,I;
g. s. "l~~. v. . particular incident,. if you had_;,;.... noti'ced(this! fact, that;teif'C .5 g.'fG.3: . '..;.l. qq_. I, y _.:. ., y. ' pressurizer flevel went 'up st'artincj! at about s'ii. ' minutes / wha % t ~6 s. c. ,~ .. : w. W. ../ ?^ . significance do you think you wouldThave assigned >.to.>that': fact? 7 .. : -:. : n. - p. .a,.g. ;:, :..., :;. x,. -
- w. -
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. ~;.. e g.. w ' '9 Three Mile..Isl,and, lof. course'E..I wou1'd have susi,sectedit! hat-.. '... m.. v .~.,. ~ . ;? possibly there' could have b'een-Ja bubble" somewhere' 'else ?4.,...:,_ ~.' 10 t r- . -...c.a.? . ~..t. 5.: .?z :.. 2. ' ':z.:Ylkio. Tiir'ee MileY 'Islan'd,I,.5 hat d&ycYIir5kfy' oui ?
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-1.C. S.4.h, 12 sould have,surmis ed? i- , ]: ' ' y...M,, y.: .1-r,:.. - .. x :. s ,,.3 ,A. I don ' t know if. -I.wo,,u,.l.d. have.. picked.f,up._on th. at,..o.r : ; 1 ...y:. : :...v. p m .s. ..-s w. c~ y 2. y.. .a. .. m :.;.,w.. 3.-e. yP- ;. - ~ m~.- :.n z ;.:. . ~,. y. c .t * -...: e :. ?. ;-. :.. 14 lnot. s- ....m u. .p: Did this'particular..incides.tiraiss'any [ concerns'5.n. . '15 G .. d.d - ~.r; - -.,.. - + r. your mind concerning the. analyses.,of postula.ted accidents?< '16 .-..c The inspection was conducted.to,see that-we: felt' 's 17 A.' 1.. m. i .e*> ,.r.w the t th'e licensee.'s analysis. was bounded inithis.thinc),yand-t 18 4 4~ . _,.m.; ; ;;q ;. _ a.. ...,... a that was one of the determinations that we'.h.a.d*-.at:th.elend of 19 + .this inspection,.that it 'was bounded by.a previous.' a'nalysis.- 20 Did this event raise.any concerns in your mind. 21 G concerning operator traiNi'ng. or the adequacy.of plant 22 O. -.a 23 Procedures? The main concern that I~ recall was.that there was i 24 A. I l Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. some confusion on the part of the operators'in regards t6 thel 25
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- 30 mte 3-5
.1 . steam feedwater rupture control system, that~wa's ident'ified 2 by Mr. Harpster. -And that was the only one that I can ' recall. ~,..
- .. -'. :: ~
~. O. - g co you recall any'of the specifics'.of tho'sel concerns? 3 ~ w .; ' ' c.' 4 .[ A.'.I ^ No,.,iI don t ; 5, ~ 3.; ..x.
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~ <,, e correctly,14e asked.him' to. do.',a reorie'ntati~oh[of the4 operators',. 5 ,c,. -..... ~ m- . u...., .m.. 6 prior to startup. ) ' ~ - s p- ... s.t 9 n... 44-f. ' 7. ,d. ~ BY'MREFOLSOM: 9: ~ ~. 4 c...-p ~f 3 <t,,,.,,3. -...,, d,n...y, ~ y.- 8 G' ' Did that.reor$entation incl'ude an admonitiori'to' J,. , ~ ~.., ^ 7.:. .g. E 9 th'e operat' ors' not1to secure;the.HPI?.'.
- " 4
... z... ,.3 L 10 A. -I don'tUbelieve:it.did. ~I can't recall iftthat.was, . t~;:j. 7 ;. ; ; ;, a -. . ' y
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x-an issue at-th'at po} int' dr' not. -. I don' t' honestily-remembe'r.D " 11 -5: Y !!. N BY 'MR.. HEBD.ON : c,c.i" -'? ?- 4Ta. 2o...,j e I.,.y. 12 .. ' i ;, l L " }. ..r. - ~..
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13 'G. ..1n the course. ofiyour-review of incidents; s.uchS.' -:a. (- a s,J ~ %,;, ;L=:. .'L...% ' c-, : t. ~;} . ' r... .,f... ~ ,p. .m. his,. what consideration doTybu riormally bive.t'o wh..a...t!.the.'. 14 -t ,. 3 _,. ~ 3 operatiors will see 'a'nd what they.-may, of may 'n'ot do[sithMhey, '_;. i 15 - :,. - d~ s l & :-g*: ^ . 'i 13* 1 ^ M E. 16 informati'on?
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.c q -.< : .... f, v.5-,, .3 17 A. Generally speaking, unless.I'm onf an.inspe,ctiori e sphc.fi bonciern', - 18 myself,,unless~the. inspector' brings 1[.tb ~_ .~ 19 I'm not sure I would get involved in.-that.- .20 G If you;were oli, the inspection yourself, what. ..s ~' 21 consid'er'ation would you give. to'.whatE the operators Edid? " 7,, , y 22 A.. Welb as I mentioned,.one of the first things an, ~ 23 insp'ector should doris, af ter he determines.that; the plant is 24 safe, is review the transient, the actions by the people; if ~ -^ Ace-Fedevel fleporters. Inc. there'was an operator. error, to try to determine.why the 25 K 6 V s ~ r 2
m y7.u.. ~.. ~ }. ...a into 3-6 31 4 9 K 1 . operator error occurre'd, whether it is faulty, information,.. m. p,. 2 faulty. procedures or whatever. 1 - 1 ~ 3: 2. 3 g ~ ~ Do.you k' ow wheth'er dr not tihati typ'e' of, analysi$ -. n [ _;p - 'D.... :' - f.Gl.S...,-. ". j,, ' '. '."[. ~ was done.during this,'. incident?-' 4 ..,e.. ;.-;. ;rs~ :.F h .'L._: .n .j :g,:,;w $ 5 ' A.1 I do know thati'it'wasJdone in Yegardfwith~.the. M '. c'. ~
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~: ~ .....:.. ra 6 steam feedwater rupture "contr'o'l spstem. I-don '.'t' r'ecall' ~ s whether.. t' was done on. the. HPI. or -.. t.,4l:;?.,:.- 7 .i no
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.w ,f..!!; %., .m ~ 8 'G) .When you' analyze.inciden'ts'.such?asfthis,,.donyou n m.. ' '. y 3' ~
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'.give any consideration.;(, .what;wo'uld have.7happe~ned:. if. the,. .9 o .,c 'C 2
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...x 10 plant had been.at different -initial' conditions?.- For example, wi, - ~,:.. x -n .*A* " J 3,' /*
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.; y.. 11 '.if. the, plant had been at; ;a'much.~ highers po,wer - level? ?,q.;,' w. .s. ? - . 'r. :Y. L.'... ~.,.. :.+%; ... x.. 7 = We normally'wp'uld;.,L don ?.ti rei:al'l -if. w'e (did. n.~'. 1 12 AJ-o n . : ;;:. ~
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_,,.g* ,5 14 0.. Is there 'a.f.oirma.,l WeEh'od 'or; p'idc6d.uEe"th.at'.you' i Yi' - m.,..,, f<_ c e4 ' ra ;,e. us'e f to r.nalyze 'tliat type.: of what-If ' sort ~of ' analysis?. W*)_ c:f,.f.- 15 .q.. ; .: ; f..o.. ~- _ ' M;+ -. -'N ._,, ~;< -...i '.16 A.L .No, we don't.!. a W.~~ y : .c... -2 y-17 'g So..it is. just; so,mething..lhati the' inspe' tor s._hould" c h. 1. 18 ,do in the course of h'is rev'iew?{ ,, 9 19 A. Yes. .c. u 20. ,.g During your review of'this particular incident; 21 .did you feel that the; plant r'es'pondedi as you would ha've 22 expected it to respond?- ' ~, cc - ( s. 23 'A. Are you talking about the plant,-phys'ical plan't?l- .24 G. The7 physical plant.? c.3; Acs-Federal Reporters, Inc. 4 s 25 A. Well,, I guess, given,the event s 'that occurred, 'I er y n
r3 2 'i .e - e-o. ..., y I 1 felt that the plant responded the way it.should have, yes. 2 0 Did you feel that the operators responded as you 3 would have expected'them to respond?" ~. 1- ..,.y...... .. is 4 A.- . -. It is my understandinip;that, again;,.g we had' ar, .p < .y . _~. m.c. , nz.',. W._
- n
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- probldm' with.the stdam.feedwatier ' rupture' control system.
I: 5 ,, :i don.'trecall-(heJspecIficson'that[. ~ 6 ~ v .7 -f 'As'far as-th'e HPI.being ' shut off, tha.t was,at least'.. l--. l^ ._,7, ~ 6 a unt.il" aboutf a~. year':later.. . '.f _ i ~ not'a big is' sue' ~ .8 -e v n . u. - ,i "7,..a,,. :... 3 4 T,$ ' 9 .BY.MR.-FOLSOM: e- -a ' ' :~. ~.-,. -;,,. =
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10; ,. A,. May'Ilback up to your' answer.s about'.the analysi..sj,< +- .N. . j'.
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14 ~ yand you..,said'/ no, ' that th.'.a~t' was,up:ito theLiridi, v'idual' inspect 5r. + ~ i 15.j..Socam I correct in stating.'that th'is fwhat'-if range df:squ6stions 'Elependsi,' Entirely on' tihe.imagina$ ion arid ' initiative; of '.the 167 s s ...1 ;c-17 . insp.ector?. L',T ' m:. -. c 4.> ~ n x ~ 18 '. A. And expertise.. That' d6esn'.ti me~an that.'we. don ' t' .u v 19 say what-if i.n the region. Mr.f..Fiorellinand myself may'h've' a , -v ~ l 20 ' conducted some what-if' things, but ;I don' t. recall,' honistly. s~.>.. 4- ~i,;a. ", ~. r ' 21 BY MR. HEBDON: -~ - . -w. t A
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23 to have generic implications to.oth'er plants? j 24 A. - We_ 'wi ote. a' letter to[headquar_ters requesting them I Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. l' 25 to issue a bulletin on'the failure ofth'e$g~overnbrs, the E', F 4k 8 ~ ^..,. n. as m
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applicability.. We don't'oftentimes doc,ument;a' transient'such' 9 as that in A bulletin.'. 'We noi[naliyyrelate' to' hhrdware th.ings'. .-So,' given the time' now, 'I would probably hav.e. issued'.~;a bulletin 10 ,zg r,:-.,
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-11 'on the PORV.- .i 7..J. lif. ', f _-W ~~ s ' ~. r. 12 0.~ Given.[.th. 'e _ conce'rns that were.rhis ed.Lby. M.r. _ Cr.eswell. p z. t.j 13 later on concerning.fthe se' curing of-l the high presstireninjectio'n , jg. $, .. /S T,- y. -1 : ., c,.f. + 2 14, system, would 'you ha, ve' felt ;that that hadt g'eneric -imp'li6ations? ' ~.- n. .15 A. Given thd review of that' grapli; 'in light"of - ~ an.d a.revielw of that graph.'in'. terms' 16 Mr. Creswell's concerns of the fact ' hat there.may be voiding.similar to Three Mile f 17 t 18 Island, at this time I.would,. yes. 19 G Do you have any idea why these concerns were. noti -.~ 20 considered to be generic at the: time?.f. I don't recall,.other;than the fac't that; at'least 21 A.. 22 in my case, the shutting off of..the.high pres'ure inject' ion .O s 23 pumps and the possible voiding in the core did not comef. ~ 24 .together.until after Three Mile. Island. That was never Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. ~ . expressed to me by Mr. Creswell. or anyone else. 25 s
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Wasittiere' any consideratioii given. to the.factNhat 9 possibly less-qualified or less 'ablefoperators' might not kdv,e " 10 ' _ ~[.? ' . 4.Q 4-H & ' b l _._ l G.. - :.. # ~- ~~ ' I responded as well? .f s v 1 c .2.M k;. I2 ' A. .I don't know. i q'O 13 c g > What;is; your.. ass essment.,of ; the.. knowledge, oi? " ~.. -q ' ' ", '. , (g 4,-+ 3 _* - *. .,,e ...s 't- -' a. swareness'of the operators conc.erni. .jhef. imp'lication..s of the4'/ <; -- ng .. u. reactorcoolantsystempressuroapprbacbing[sa'turatonprbs 15 4-Do you think.that they Eefe akJare-o[ that it thb tiine. 16 sure? s. [ ;* s ' c 17 'of the incident? t7 ,/ ~- ~..: C l 18 . A. .I have no idea: ,[ y.. l 19 0 Do you know if they realized ~tha.t.b' oiling'wa's' ~ ^ 1 20 taking place in the reactor cooianti system?., ~' 21 A. -I. don't recall. 22 0 Do you know what caused the operators-to re'alize 23 that the PORV was open? 24 A.. I. don't' know if iti was a proces's.:cf.Ielimin'a' tion. Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 If I r.emember correctly, it was the tail pipe temperature's-
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T .C' g . s,., . r,t. ..,. 4.. ..m.:e ~.. g,..l18 ...,..,.A.g*, :Mr.V, S tree te r ' f~el t: tha.f'h'e-wanted'. an,M.~ utsfne.'- l.ook. / j.; - .p7 .y ~ y. , c. l9 ~. ... n.-- ..~.; r~.- . n: .~ 1 "and so' he;"went to another p:r:g.y y;with' the. unde'rstandin'a Jthat' C ersoni r .b g;. ~ - m.n.p, . y;. y' 20 .,.,;.:.:.,.. p. 9 : > a. y ~ ~ 'before Fo b r and Ko'h'ler,45$t 't 2dee-dithdr theI1ichn,b'de N . n.. ....v.- \\
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l a ~ .. ~ . 48- ~.. . s. mqc'4-8 1 to rest once and for all Mr. Creswell's concern? 2 A. I don't really recall specifically. I do know in 3 ceneral that' John hac1 some doubts in his own mind, and he u wanted an 'outside look to.. determine whethe.r there really,.,in, 4 ,9
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g. _ 6 0 . John'who?. x-f. 4 7 A. John. Streeter..J - + 8 0 .Was it your feel'ing.that prior. th The[ investigation ~ ~
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10 did or did not have a' firm-feeling as to whether'or not ll Mr. Creswell's co'~cerns'Nere' val'i'd? n
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12 A. - As ~I,just' stated,' I think there was. some doubts nas ~ O u to wueher some of the concerns. were ve11d. .p. .c. i ' Q. Did you review th'e. technical evaluation of' Mr.,; 14 15 Creswell's. concerns that was prepared by I&E, Head. quarters? - J. 16 THE WITNESS.: Could we go of.f'the recor.d? 17 FR..HEBDON:. 'Su re. ' m 18 (Discussion ~ of f the record.) e a:. 19 MR.' HEBDOil:~ Let's go'back_on the r.ecord.. What'I', ~ ~ 20 have here, is a meno from' Norman C. Moseley, E.. Thompson. ~to'W. 21 The subject is." Notification of Licensing Boardsi" 22 + 23 24 Ace-Federal Repor*ers, Inc. r \\ 25 I i y giy,. ,g g 't l ~ -= 49 mqs 4-9 1 And this concerns the, issues that were raised by Mr. A 2 Creewell.and includes an evaluation of each of the items. 3 BY MR. HEBDON: O .. 4 . OL Do7you recall seeing that? N '. ' ~~ ~,:., ,y ~ n .c ^ 5 A.. No,, I have not seen. ti5is.. ^ I'was in th'e, Construction 6 Group at the time ~ that thi's was. generated. ..We.re..you aware ihat Mri..Cresweb.lf disc ^us' sed ~ his ;... 7 0. 3... m v s. 8 concerns with Commissioners ' Ahearne^' and.,Bi,dd ford' and -' the
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staf f? "' g 10 g. , A. Only obliquely.., It'was.hearsayLinformation g, C:~' .~ ?. L s..:....... d Hea'rsay from shom?. r 11. ^ '.. ~ Jn .+ - ...I.had heard that he had-been 12 A. I don't. remember. x (] l 3'~ in commurication 'witli. Commissioner Ahearne... I.was. not awar,e,, :: ~ ?. ~ --. >: - n. c :- ?:
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~, ~ ~ 14 Feuess, of the, other'., t 15 O. Was this before or. af ter'.the ' accident at TMI that' 16-yot became aware of -that? 1/ 17 A. I doh't recalle ~ 18 0 Based upon'. the 'e:<perience! gained as la.. result-of the 19 TMI accidLnt,.what significance do'you" assign to the' issue 20 raised by Mr..Creswell? 21 A. Well, the~ pressurizer' level. thing - 'I'm not aware of what has been done since February,' hutas far as thei 22 fact that under some conditions you could void the pressurizer,- 23 it is my understanding that..that is'still a potential and still 24 Ace. Federal Reporters, Inc. not deened to be. an unreviewed. safety guestion, so.in that ' 25 c 5 s. e m. ~,. 50 I mgc 4-10 specific instance, I don't:know that anything,has changed. O. Would low pressurizer level or even voiding.of the 3 pressurizer,.does that particular* issue have.an. relevance lto-em() the accident at TMI, in your' opinion? ., C, r. 5 The most, significant. issue invol'ved,la's 'farl.as A. Creswell was concerned, was.the shutting of f of' the'high 6 7 pressure injection; pumps,-which I understand relates to.the ~ O September 24 incident. 9 ~ 0 Was itmyour understanding that that concern was - 10 closely.. tied to ME.' Creswe'll's concern. about low pressurizer; ~.a
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Do I un(erst Nd pou, then,[that yo.u don ' t. feel -.. 13 m -. 4 ..,, ~,. -. I4 that'tho's'e two iss'ues we're"?hlosely tied together? . ~.. ~ 15 They.wcrd' never,cxplained' as being tied ' together. 3. a 0 So as far.7 ab y[oure c.oncerned those are 'wo-16 t ,~_ y I7 separate issues? ^' ~..: ThIg were at.the time.: Now, I "think the're ', 18 A. Yes. 19 is some relationship, of course.- . t 20 0. Staying for the moment with the issue of the low 21 pressurizer level,. do I. understandlyou that. th'at. particur:4r 22 []) issue doesn't'really relate to the accident at TMI? 23 A. I' don't knowfl.ow to answer that ouestion. Obviously 24 there was a low pressurizer level that was induced-by a Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 transient, mhich involved a. loss of feedwater.to the secondary .m -w g ,':) C ~ ~ - ---~,~, m ; u....;.m. p 's,.
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+ 51-mgc 4-11 system and Ir. --osaure occurred.. I don't know enough about. I ~ 2 the T:,::ee" !"ili Inland incident -- as'I und rotand it-from ,, y ?. - . Lt
- n. :
/~1 only becrsar - ' tr cit had the operators left thef high, pressure. 3 t i. .a. o 4 q ~ injection pun p cn at Three Mil.e,Is2.a6d,.. t.heref.probably. would - s.. . ~..., 5 not haw been a significant core damage..' e 6 0 But th :t is,a different issue'. 'I thinf we co'ncluded- +- ~..;, the liigh pressure injectionii's one" issue and ' 7 a morent. ago "t - ~. u, g y_ 8 the low p res.= u ri.t e - level,.which was.the issue. that was' - 9 discus:md in 'Fis ' oncern about B&W withholdiri,g..information 1 10 'and the Boarc : - tification'. and all of the rest that we,,have beerc .~w .- z w.. L ;. .. 2 m :..t "; % ;.n. 2,;,; g'; 11 discussino here, is a separate issile'. .U ' T . ' t.i n .,2 6 .'M. '4i ! 12 A. What I ' r. saying~is that the loss ofifeed,wath.'hi it's my understanding that the.' transient an'al[&. 13
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- . 2 shows that there would'havet been no' fuel' dama.E,e,. ;d scr from ' "
y ;.v. y 14 J an .~ c ..:,.~ 15 tha t s tandpoin t, then, 'the low pressurizer level'is' still ~ not ?, r. 16 an unreviewcc safety question. ' 6 ' * *i 17 0 may. Let's go back,tand I wct1d like.to. talk about-s 18 this concern tlat Mr. ' Creswell"had. about securing the[ high.. 19 pressure i n-j e c t ion. When did' you firs ~t beccme aware of that / 20 conce.3: n ? R 21 A. I don't recall. 1.think it was August of '.78. ~ .c G 22 I'm not sure. k) 23 0 How did you become aware of that conceIrn?. 24 A I don't recall.- I. ' dory '.t ~know if -it was reading ! ' Am-Federal Reporters. Inc. 4 \\ T 25 the inscection report.or: discussions with Mr. Tambling or ~
- u..
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.3, ~ 4 f g mgc 4-12 1 Streeter. What was your. understanding of the concern? - 2 O 3 A. ~ The understanding was that the operators took an incorrect ac51on in shutting off the high pressi re injection. 4 pump when they were ' belos-l'600 potinds. 5 w. Did yoti agree. at the time ti at that acticin was,- 6 O 7 in fact, improner? .g y I think my understanding at the time'was_that I a A. I didn't think it was proper, but given the transient -- 9 recall en ctly, except that -- I ' just can'.t remenber. 10 can't I know I had.a-disagreement with Creswell, but I don't 11 ~ * * * ' ,'y'a,. 12 remember. On the technical issue involved,'I don't remember. Do you have anything in your files that might b 13 G d 1re'ffesh your memorf' concerning whaRthe. disagreement,was? ~ -. :~ :,,y>...g. ,e 15 A. No, I don't. I'm sorry. 16 0 As I understand it,- the operators --- ' 17 A. .As I recall, though, we did cite them'and get 'them to agree they wouldn't. do it again.' x. la As I unchrstand it, they.in. fact changed the 19 Oc procedure at Davis-Besse to include a step to warn the 20 to secure *he high pressure irij tion? 1 '. operator not 21 A. Yes, that is my understandirg. r 22 V) ~0 Do you know vhen that chance was made to the 23 procedure? .24 It? is documented in one of theJinspection Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. . A.. No. 25 v r g e ~ g, 7 q .s. T b _m._- m n,. _
- tj*,
1 lf f. 11 - 53 1e!.-11 I 3 reporta, Fu t ~ I den't rewr,e er. I thi hh i. was, in L uctur t c r i .k20' 52p rber er screwhere nound there. I i.I " t. (t rid yeu ci - any con;5deration to whetbc:. the 1 - 4' corrective action that the utility toci es a result of "r. ~. I securinv hich ptessure injection 5 h.. C: ecu rsll 's conco r r '. about l I i 6 h b ad g e e ri c it'nli c a t i rm e: ?
- I
'I If A. !'o, I did not. .s h, 3p p Would it h ave been ncrnal to cencider tbc ceneric Y 9 implicationa of sucP a corrective a:ticr*, such a change ir e i 6 su, the procec.urcs? I 1 1,' A. I would have to answer, no, it veuld not be nor:ral. ] 4 i j 12 f. BY '.a. NLSDM: [ i I. 13 ; 0 Is. that because operator actions are r.ot censidered i i t. ,.V f a j 14 p rocedu res? 15 A. Well, I think the whole situation of transients and i i 16 'crerator response.to them is one area that we need to rc-da. i t f I have just been ass ienr>d this.veek to a tasP fcree on lcrions l f 1 15 to Sc lenrred frc,!".arbic HJll and other thince in 0:nstruc-i Hr tion, and?this is orse of:the itnm3 en our arenen there -- l-i f -20i that we have '.a better.. system f or actting,.i r g :tetor e;:perf ums - j l j 21' f ound at cme site like !brble. Hill to the other cites, 1 l to cet l y . 22 particula rly lihe' if-you' have a problem with. Boch^el, i 23: them.to the other Bechtel cites. I think -it is hb arc-a tha t I . 2.! needsLto be strencthened. i 9 i d c w as v. p o n ; w.! li-s,r t l (, }._ - }.l - U s }... -4 4 i w w N w v' _gg g 99 ti i i B 5' 9 i s-h f: ac 4-14 Il .u v. t ". t'. r. '. r.o..t. v' I c c r ni irnprescion of the abilities i ' 'i ? Fl.a t in J ., 3 f r.. - 4
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i iln t' i J 4 I 1 r go I would lijce to ak you : . :eneral qucstions /: ':h e functiioning -f the : ?; 1. -.cral and ILI. c- . o i bhat is ;your gencral perce:r.i on cf the rela t a. ";< .eadquarters en the I: - :s ? i-h t >j n nd of view '- renior'. --
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-i thin the scr -
- tions'and det' ino ad-1 ~
i ive the c :i1 d ty,
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ihey oc 't r 6 I - t,e I&E or. ass : 1 1_ reer tne r e: n ..er inspect' the rc .iremente .nd these requir e. j to i I:
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I I e ] fcel that I&E hsadquarterr is the f a c c.. c1 - l l ..re happening niaund the
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'They are ___ g ,:i p M !! people who have specihlists in certain areas,.. and"during i ~ tr-1s such as the ones zo've bee: d is cus s i nci,
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< ccuss it with then. In sore cares w e'- ec er c.: e i ,o.~ ners people out to revie; tri. stents C co. e . :ching un. just. little, at you re r- . c r a m,- i t and tic tec;- [ o - x tween I&E hea'cuarters "eotlt; i , I_
- a:.ccrning the two :: cidents that occrrre.6
.c a l: j Uc i-~. , the one 'in Ec. -- :acr and t':a one in c:._ 5 l i Could you re. neat the quan tion? Do you_ recall am discussicns between Tr!. -. -=. O p e o: -
- d I&E headquarters people conccrning eith r cf ve,u n-
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.~.. - a 1 i O. routine b m e. j 1 I l 14 l 0 Have you ever felt any pressure not to contact 1 i. fl t j' r.'; .b..+. A. o" W O r k +w-b.," O Cr._', h .T T F .~'.'s"._".'.v"'~.r.'."9
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I n a do you rs .I a m - - they arc, .cate - e the plant 1 the: oper _. i condu' ts 1.! - r e'r i : - c o - =.-.ctorr, 'r. review i-e i t r d_ffercnt .ie r normal p-t '. _ - r c if you're ._:m a r~' ex.. r nheyhrevic _: n u c c e t' t : 1.
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/ ~ h i what;p5rce-ge c- ~) ~ E. E~ ~ ~ 'D actually rc ' : mied. .r' g . s. i, Du ing preoperv;2cnal ta.12 .. is 1 - :y h_. n, e.e N.. number. During normal ooeration, I thi: t ira thi.rd cf the 1' a 1C c r m c m c'cc r., i .' rat ng prn" arcs ar '-h t-u. 7, t i I, t I remenb: c.rrectin 1 ti.rd each i I 1 ' -. ink-so. i 19 2 this a detr _ .u t 1 ...U.1 '...: t.e ; cedure exist: n, I think,._ I rc. -- ' c'c-te '1.', cc i li, t i 22 U i r. 1. ~ s: u-e - *here was a -' e nm to i j t sy _ c~ t '., thrust.is n -Ore t e cie.. M :. : .c m e t c :
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.g d,'. M,.;dif f erence in..the thrust is that 'wb. M.e,v,i, ewed. t$e.di iri,th'a.thr.yf.A.nn, M.W ,7 +. et
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as ..y. .. -...i.;. z. u ?':':, Y,. .QS ?/:m... w. :%,::; 26r. W }. y J.jj B 1heriod f or ad'equacy and now We. revieg.u,o:> sin'd conctiziathhtrlthey.k.wil? ,vy m... s. e-t<.~ y.. . < ~n v s. _.e, m.: v.,- r s.m.. ... '> ~. .?. y;; [... 2 , m. g.. ..1 z s e.=k'.> e do tz,,, e job. .w,. .s? i .q.- y a e ...~C...g .. n,. :p~..<v. - 4 s /... -.M- . ~ n.,. r.w e,.qF.~.~.a.s ?.; . : n * % w:,.y,~, m , 4.;10 ..:.n. .a y. .3 ~.. if that"is.'a i_ sligh.t. disti.nc, tion.:.o.. a;..,r.; not,. l,f I don't k w .c E th e:. . :a,. . a m. a w.. m e. a
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5 0 I'g6ess I don't onderstand. f L, 9.,. m @ w-*-.., 7<,. 7 p. w
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.+. -:,..e. ?, : ..r m.+ . Le. ~ ' www..u s './ 12 Jiou explain that a little more?. . n;y : ? r.5.Y.':'- @ '.h.,!. " Q S J $,:. ;r L s. .y....,. r.g z.g..y, g z - .-...,3: t .p...,, .+. m ( 13 r., Wel,l, I guess maybe from snYa^ccountab.itllEy*5tandNK A. the e p:4.%a p;:y.p,.[n,w.y:-nL n ~u:% v v.ww. ,;.; c. k...M.. 9 ? r c.. . s. 3.y.:. T.. '- ..< g; y- ~ ' .a. w f: ;, w.:~.:. s w. .x ~. w -, , e. ..r. x noint, before.wer zeviewed 1 w1
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- ~
...... e., ~3, '.15 - " to review them!and determine that - the.A ';%.*'e r.* informatien+: co.nta .n .-: ~ .q;g. > ne ,*
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e- ,,;.-,y, - -.;& c. ;. : 4... r,- g.: ,,,.s. w. a,, ' fn then is technically adequate.to'perfor;g~ the$, bt; 2:IttispjusE. >..16 .~ , y <. w. cr\\ ..r+. + :.a ) 1 m::.y -g sg '...17. '..a.'lihtle bit different. ,
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. 21 . =. ..therc is more ~ accountability today,; that;.you. essential'ly :have-e.r ....x.m.:... - - s o, ~s..y L. _.;***.y a ~ 22 t o" s a';, yes, that procedure is adequa'te"..'. Beforely,otf could%< J ' 1 .'v... '...., - + ,. ~. ' ' ' - s 23 - have.aybe reviewed a third of 'it ani1[said,. I -refiewed. thail':,. -j.. ~ "' ': -l'; . s: - 7 24
- procedure, E
- . NM. E
,w.4.orr : Reporters. anc. ~ and maybe reviewed all.of'.it. 4,O.n -w - "" cv -<!.*.... r P. :.v.,* g.~ X 25 I'.m not saying that there has been ' anyc. change intthe < 4.,.,.., ,. ~ 7, *t
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,..e zw,.y,3...,..L;: 5.y.r;; .;.. e. ;,. procedure pno. DI' 6&h get7y,ou ;a'? copy..... ;'~,, +.. ;. ~rof the nr..,. ~.....; v .v. .u:.- e. s . :? ' 3 . a,, :. n.. %m.r. r,. y:. y: p g~. y.. w. +l.;,p. 3..:,.,.m.,.,.....~<.- g. v3 .u. y - ..,.f,;..y.,c.... ~.w a .w. ., s......,v p. :<. W@. a,..:sw.7:@... :.#1If *. yow coulid v.,R wo.uldi..appreciat.,. ti~i.',t, ~...... edi a ..M.;/.;.. n :x:. M,,7'g..... u,.c -
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W. W A W :.S:.g g..#...'.~m; wf. m.24.,, e. 3 7.p. w s .t. m.. ~. N,, e., 3..,: np m,: n.i' .~ b. . ~? g.wc.th'e? inspcctors ( C'. D '. e.qp.s q w{. h dJ ..s.....,. hIs'fif.3ohn.i.n. der.,s.staf di g.that w e .~~h.f. M d f.2;5 m,,., g..t,. s.
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Normally at>the board;%. p y g '7*10 7 C:a. q.w:%.;:= M&%;wn.2.&pg;;.::.w. q.ps..1.: L.. Q.f.:&, .,%:2:e. A;,. w:W.y 7.s .y 9 -. b,J.s.' W il . would.be "do,n'e..,.,in1 th.,e.to..f,.m c.x.e< od..a.ts.the?. site N..b_ub,.n. o. t a w fi c.. s ~. .;3
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O ~- a 4... '*x. <g .w+uw%g.t,wellpI?minot-evenrso: much conce'rnediabout it fro !.. e.g mp. s f.:13 t:y.- 1. g. 4: d 4.m.m.
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.:.. w ~A2 c o ~.a >e w~' P,.,:. mn f. p' ' \\n i &mifrone;thefl.r . m m.: v.. v... : -4.[.u..f.v., idea o,(would an C..u y 4 s . + w?, 7' ;14 wrr perspective.,asgr2 .v. .r_ [y,.. n -;. ;. 7..; - : . m.y 7, s.... c, a:,., ., #.4 ;., v .u n. '; inspectorD.lo. oking t,hro.ughi....,. :E.Jproc'edurs.c.o.me to W point and ~ l .. f e (15f [, :p*y... :::.. w. ~... (.m....w ;r>p.~.s.,. .s. v v e.. .:., s m.t ,m. ....* l..v ~- * -... y.,.i p y g.? - ..m. 3 .w yp <q. lsce/wher~fthehoperatorl.mightigo. astray; j a ~ -,.., ' @.,716 ,.,sayY Here,is a p e . q.<. .,s ~.:p. n. -;.r a~
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s u .a .., -.. : ~. 3 ~,. m....,. ~..;. maybe' we' had.better.:[puttinsaf.prechhtiori:.here',to'. keep hin w v-' C17 i w
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3' f...; 9.',.^ n h.j,> :.. ~, ?. .= ~ . q,; * .? . Q.. t %K ', M;.o l .a L.i ? .,,.e ,m. . 18 ' headed.in3the' right directiyl o n. "~. ' " o t W,P/. T ~ ' s :+., w. ' .9 9.: .:J,: . L.. L .,, ;(.. . t*,,, G,.
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,.. w. m.:.. . ~,c.;.g...s. m. s. . / x.,. m.:1._ n.a type of. thing a.is9a,. normal. i,thinx.... x.... ; ,.c n. .gf_ t..h..at th.e.... i..nspectors F ing. up. j ,. .y,~20 t.. e.. ..-..a., x .i ...x. w.,,....- .c ..., x. ~ i i it .f.@ _21 .My point '.is,wwhen.you..revies.;'a.procedhr,;e[;p n y:our rev ew _. #,t.5.,*.,%.,. y 2....
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...a 9 .a z. ^_e 2p: Q,. ,.. Q. % Q ' Q..., ". v, _.p._ ( tt,:' i.. a 7:;,. f.(... say.s,. turn,,. Switch,B',!. and you see' th,attLightyXYZ Tlights up, .* q :, 22 .., ~.... .v. _ts.,. .: y s n u,.. u ...n..< :.w .., -n.. i s C. P..,. ~23 if y.ou pe.rhaps do t. hat 1proce. dure on.~a'7 walk'down basis where
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.*( . 24 . w' d'?.;W' ' . V;m4~ .c l v.' ~.14.%, [. % =., ~ Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. s.-t. s. . C C*' . v z, ' u',25 readily: ava'ilable" to be.'seen - .Ilm' not" sure '.that 'is done. .1, J. +;l. ~ +.W.;f. e::.~: <:..T,e.y.. w. '.., -
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?M1 And so r. - m:nt be a.problen. l A we -., y _; 4,.. ..s m m. 79.g ; dif ferent pe,r. specs;.. W,,. W~. W %:.,. 2 0 a' looking at it fra 1. .. a v :.- .ffc 1 < y~.Q.A.'.@m;;5.._.M< '.,i. &. #. I.. c.,. .@q -e .. V I y m. n,n yg@%e. 2 3 ti;., is the type of thir We -he operator.woj.11d 3 3 ~
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W acident _-(... foe %. hld;',,.,o.shd,.'.$fg.5.we11, cxample of the Da<.
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c loss cJ ~ mt accident, you ca-M,@,/w.a.,. - y.w..,,- p.., r. .s... -..,, ~.. c,. m
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. s.y,. .zer pressure,'.m, v:x@.;.r.a.Y c %' %;.... ::.n.Pq.8 w w :. ,. M.?~ .,,m.. a. ~h::w.g..,,. : A r .umc And if, Creswell had been : _a. hat procedu.. -mw;d:+c.:^ re7an c ... c. ~:q. z.. ; - 9e: v ~
- u.,)..: g.g.y p a.s:.. c,,.y :dg+.T.R.,9 withon nefit of that nrtim.1 c.
o r - n nt had. comefup; t.oM c,., -.b.;y.w,p.,.,.. +, + . *.:..pu.,.,, a~ g;.. n. .~ ,.r. g.w,..e.. p ,.,.p. . ~. ~.9;.,' .J:~...{ 10
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the cc. ' that, well, gee, pr e c.c. ire. level - migh. t. r,n.ot. ib.e. y -M. .,.e.,c a.y ... w. w~...mgy w ,.2v '.".I[hYfddE61If a good ..i o n, that might ' m . issue'tN t 5E5 M b D;O.T .~ m. .. u r yky, :p::. :n. :e..,..",W,.
- ~.m!'W;.6m
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.;F:!gd M<. Q Q 12 brought a number of people -- q '. e s ay,. welp, ",gs'e.M f; .-..m. n a, c... .e..m u. ~ n r,* c,..p.: .. ~,.- -,t : -n%x .a... W mo p .m 3.(W[ig;y@= e s% 5MN.N13 r.aybe w cr put in a precaution here r i a warn'the operatoD. M'. i w ; :. :~,a c4:n ,.V.? - dhyQ "'E-f "J'JD'ii d normally pressuricer c.ressu.e and pressur@izer% $.E .: W-:..r. W 7 J'14
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,=. ;.15 /M; level ar-indications, be enrefn, _ac u,e. press.ur.tzetpe.fts.<:C e. ,,,an.,,., . c... p' c,&- w ~ ~:v.- 4 . s,4y )l*. .v 16 l e v e l :t.1
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w, s-have shown. that. 4 ,c ~., ~ 4 have';indicat'ed to you, :: -, _ -=t at -.. - g-W- m:U.2 ~..- through? 20 e.]" that they,;had not done c ' r ' "- t u-4 ;.., 3 4 j1
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o n:*.. 4 a t torral change in lead i .. -3 c :: .r ec, r a Ih I 'i u. n o-c f fectively aces the cu-
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want..to caver in this task crce i R .m. .,m.,. -- is a better rechanism :c. r i cr+ .;t+ t.nd rolaying them to anc 22 6' ~ + 22 [ u - 4 - - .ne is ' true for operating ' o s- -- - : r <., reecinc bac.r t e.in orm tion c, i 4 c- <'.c a t yo. - f ontify on ope rating plants into
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~ 9l A. I'm sorry. I don't understand the question'. u 3f, 0 What I'n tr'*iri to cet at is,'you're oNt.here in .i,
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,a 2.re seeing the nlants. an they 're build. ano that sort of -t hing, i I 6 .and what I'.m tonderinc is how effectively-the concerns you , 'l are raininc and t1 e r,rchiern that you are. seeine are getting il -y 0 L fed bacP into the c:rt.le
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I don't ha'le a. feel'for.that.. I'm.sorry.. i II j BY ran.. TOLSD: : I2 0 Let r'n give fou an example, if I may.. You -j us t g 13 mentioned that Com.cnwealth Edisoi, on a walk-through or was i show_ohaveoperatingproceduresthatth[ operator.could ~ 14 15 not possibly accenplish. Well, o viokisip, the plant itself-16 and the design of the plant caused this result, did it not? l U A. L. I would sc, in most cases 'it~was a poorly 18 j written nrocedure. In other words, I;can't recall any b I i 19 i specifica.- I 20 0 Well, if it were not a poorly written procedure 21 1,urla plant design vbere the valve'was up here out of.' reach 22 'and the indication was dcsn here where you couldchardly ( ?3 see it, and you fed thin back to your headquarters, would i 24 it' get' over to '!P' and be operated ~ on 'by them? t.y.% n.nws, inc. J 25 A. I doubt it, but there is another consideration. I i. ) I '- < e ,e s s --r-e s t -yryn .,. c.w ,,.., y.,... 7, ~. g.,, r.. n..,, v ;,; spq .g.,., m. 2.. w^;vespm?m..ywg- ..- f. - ,m,,...g:..,5.sn.. g.; w.p.;:e r.^; wa.... ~ ., 9.g,j w a'.'y;~c. pr. g. ... :.: y.- .w.
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-J 0. y.* -But..;. as. f ar as. you know,~: the.re i.sc n. o Isechan,i'sm... b"ry.v,.- A .* i. s m. Ace. Federal.Reportr es, Inc. . i .*.m.......';a.a a h. c,N ' y u :.e... %,f '; g f. .s. .r. y. + v l ~ ... - 25 ?which'you. get. together. all of the B&W in'spectiors forfah. day'.wS.,' 2 QG..'.~*h<%,.},',' .%. ;.. ' 'L g; f:.F.i. Q., },' h.. l . L_._ '*.* .a L f:* ^',y N,' L,:,. - ... K. _ s. ~ a ~ .a , s.; - -f, y.t, y * ~3.n,. 3..'.n., - j,.
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,p.. 4 0 Is the re any such reeting' for: supervisors, sec.. .:e;.,*n.. w;:.w. . W l ~:.n.c;fi. {' ' '?.. <d.. 5"Icaders, or branch chiefs?
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3 (Discussion off S e rc cord. ) ' ' j.sc.:.4 ? C t ,..... 7 e 'm u r em n" - Let's o. n back on ".t.hei. rbcord. i ., ;c.'v l Q:s.. N S 10 DY PR. HFBDOU: \\ .I . - s.v. ~,.... 1I j O You just r.entioned that there?;were%eetin73 whe 9e.- r. 1 .c: :.....-; r
- 12. people in'rolved with specific technicalfprobleiE.s get toce-t.
13 j fron tine to tiin. I think leah rate testiin'c[was one you i n
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~ 16 d 0 De you know if there are any..periodi.c meetines 17 ' branch chie f s or section leaders where they.,ge't toce ther j. .- c. : they are c>:periencingf.;..... ?. - 1r a diecusn proble"m that ..p:;. ..~ ?..... 19 ! A. There are perlocic branch ch5.ef) Tie 5 tings 'ar a. w. ~. _ 20 branchen. They discuss sicnificant problems 'to sor e e n t '. ' ;. .t. n1 !They also ao into a sul-stantial number of h&iniso c.+ 1,e 4 n. 22 ciscusnaons -- not all technical.. 8 m 0 Is thin within the rec > ion or from~ region r: r-l li l' 24 j A. It is -- the branch chiefs meet in[a.particular l I , ~ r e s tai amorten. H:. 6 I ~ don.' tE know wh t th-- 23 Heeting at sre neriodic i:,terval.~ s B 4 e h e c w.. d ( i j
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Go this would be all the branch chiefs f rom all 9.i the dif forent regions? c ~ A. Or for a particular branch, like the Construction 4j 1 h _r ' Dranch. So all the Construction Branch branch chiefs would B 3,3, .t: :eet screwhere? gj A. Right. 1 o 0 For all the different regions? a 5. Right. a So that would he the collection of all of the
- 1 j regional Constructon Branch branch chiefs?
13 I' A. And I&E Ileadquarters would be represented also. i: O Approximately how often is that done? Do you know?
- 5 h A
I think it is three nonths. i 16 C So it is roughly once a quarter? i A. Yes. g I G Do you feel thr.t there is any need to have similar i
- 3
.} 39f reetings at the inspector level? t )4 y p, As I mentioned before, I think we need some kind ~ N ., j] of system -- whether it is meetings or whether it is an _i i cperating experience newsletter, whatever -- to better tell j y u ind;.t.'idual inspectors about specific problems at other sites. '3. d 0 Uhat is your percention of the dif ference in y 2 - o_j revieu proceduren or review philosophy for safety-related wa -- a I! a u 4 I ,y, ~ - a r.m e' l i. 1 ~ 73 I ngc 6-10 versus non-safety-related systems?' il ,a A. You' re talking about operating.. procedures.now? l' t 3 0 No, your review procedures, inspection.procedL:ea. - i Q. z 4 A. Our inspection procedures /are ^ aimed <at' sa'fetp- .:: a- . : ri -- .. ~ 5 related equipment and activities; Y - ' ~ L -- 6 0 What sort of review tdo you do.with. respect to non-7 safety-related systems? ,, g,, I l y,., m-t s 8f A. It depends upon the system l.thd6youre' talking aFcr:.l s 9 Rad was t.e f aciliti es (Jet a' very significant 'amou'nt of re'7iew. ? l 10 Condens.te systems would' receiv,e. practiically nothing. ll -, :~ ,,,e 0 What about a system.such'.a's?the'.'POR.Vl~which is .on-12 sa fety-related? ~ ..a. 7..;. e '( 13 A. Normally, you vould fiisd the actions for operating
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14 t h e POPV in the safety-relatied proc 6i; lures, so ~I--would say 15 that that normally would b Irefiswed.. ~. ,+ t Would you normally~ reviud. the 'conthol-circuits of 16 0 17 a safety-related system. Let me"' star t. - that over.;. would you l .8 review the control circuits for a non ' afetiy'-related system s 19 such as the N nv? 20 A. Not normally. l 21 0 What is the basis of deciding if the 'sy, stem is I s n 22 safety-related or not safety-related,? I ~ 23 E. Each licensee is recaired by the rdgtilations to 24 submit a list of O listed itr:ms, and ~that appears in the Ace Foderal Reporters. Inc. 25 PSAR. ~ 6 ,-gga g W yQ. _ ,'vf C j+. Q..3.,y.yy.3 .. _ y..,3v.s;m,q. q.y.;go gx3~-m.3g.g. :;. g.;. .n;.g::. ghe, p~.s,,:, g, m.. ,., gz..,,, r. , __ u- , ~.. .w,. t,. -y.,., . v::. ,.s..
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.... y.- ~ v m.,,.,., ,.c. . e. ....~ s . s.. . sa fety--related ~a'nd non-saf ety;-reIatied.$re ' intermixed,[.. kid.. 20 21 . an. example.. I. can, think of'of fharid,if my reco11ect' ion is' 5, - w e.:.: - 'z . c. .: i:+.. .s. .n. ~.. 22 rig t, 1s that:. the pump for BWRs' is-fons'idered 'th I,ie safeEy C f + -v v .,.n.. - . f
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a- ~. ; related' as far as the pressure retaihing" boundaries.ar;e' / '3.. u 23 9 - concerned but that the motor is not cdnsid5 red.to lie 'safet. 24 '."'c., .T f r. - - - + - ' Ace. Federal Reporters, Inc. ~ s 25 related..
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. ;~. . ~ l -7 5, : ; .m, c ~..: c. ..r ., 9.; ~- .c s that Wel,l o.delexample . m g c.6.- 1 2 _ $.. 1-c... c'.f cited to me;along the ,..4 s ... n....'o,.. o .c. ts,...m. .1 o N c -;-:.,... m..a a. -. '.w'ay '.isithe f act"that' the checel M . A;[2 .c c r.fety-related but.the ~.1 ~ . e.s.s... .. y v...;.1,v:a. g:..< ;v.. ~ -n .- a " ~ J.. a ~ :. ~- ..e., L.3e,ai'r'. - s.stdr't'w g.pstem '.fo'r tue c'd m l s '; fuel to.run it'are ia . r s --., QR.Q. "y.G^Q.:'?.Vf f." *flQR;)
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. a : :, n '..> a ;a,- .v e w w n..c. gw...n.w m. " ' N A. C. .w x.,,, ..; m* n '.~I"woul'd disagree C tr _.terpretati'on. ~ w a .. J i 'l 5 ..~ .t .%:w.-,v. g.:w..:o.qe:';c y.m % .x 7,4 ... ~. N.9 .. r u.,,,.n. I;.p.p... L.%.G' MWhat int'erpretati on? .L- , ;. 6-o ?:_ .i~.7.'%. w
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-t system,,'as7far as Wouldisay..that the r-M.n;?.W-@X','M.-M;+.. s c.,- c. " e.:: w.., g. w.4.w,-*.s...m.;. ..[. c 9...~ 7.,. ~ ~ '8 the aalr.;t...k. s +an sr.to assure a u.nimur 2r of st.-art.s, would be m 2, ny ~y,sm ;e..:. e m.. r..cy2:, w ~ u.. ety&-.
- p. 4-n~
- s a f,..- r.-related,y;.uand I think we trc
- rmally. treat ~ it as s'uch.
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..,..ar :as ; t.he,7,fuelf. o:il, Asdf I r.;.. - the whole hing yould ( 10 ..t . v..:....
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.gm:.:g. p,...,., -r... :..;- .w r m.p.. ;e.,g'e' Isle'd d W; ere may be e.. ~ .j.. ' c 'j j
- be: safety-r int pastil'ike.a day r
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. a n + o.,a.nkt.oi~s'om'e.thind'wh',re there are circumstances.1that might L . j.,.12 e ,,.. s o g,.
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- .l So4the~ Tit 'i.s' your unn. < : ~, ding that in. the cases n
4 .,-n..m.ya. .J. +- .~ ... y. s you kno. w!. o.f.i.t. his..di. f fe. rentia tior - m fetv.. -related.versu.s . X.15 a: . ~ s.. . non,sa'fety frel'ated.I.x'as ' been f ai r2 ' c^ nsintent? i ~ c ' I6' h ..m, ,.. w. ..', p ' c, $,. :: c. - .s. ~ ~ v.e u. e r> rg .gn.q. 3,' 7 .I.n"mos.t'c'a.s es. '/: e re
- :c n tions'.
~.In,.,the'. x 7 4.. c r s n y. s. . e. n... .4
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t constru'c, s..ioni'are,a" i.s ~where .w. m t r _ 1 '. " run into'somelof this 2
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'e oct into t.h'eJarea 2 ...-.. %.. ~ m,L w.. 8..-w..7. ..c,. ..,v -. ~.. 3 where,we. j u.,s,t h'adi...~. - -a,.;. dis cus s io n o f ~1.e safety-related cable c.; .20 .. s v... .t. a. ~. ~.. . u...,. &.. _ . w.. f 21 trays f6i-} electrical. cables, a nci O.c re is at least 'one. AE .,c ;g.,,.. m.,. - -,. n.. o 4. .who ha. ?taken a position that the r:.ys themselves were not j2 ~ ~- s ~
- s.
~, 2, s.n l ~ , 33 safety-delated, '.bnd 'we ca e at B cn information bulletin .. ;j,.,...,.. ..j.c 1... ..t .d. 24..that sta.te's that th'ey 'are. . s ..~ n, Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc. ll, J. 25 4/ ' :Do.you know of any inct.1r.ces where inspectors have-5. [E .."g*, y * 'W
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n '. L ". - c r ? 3.. .c-,. c .r~ ~,.. s. 76 mgc 6-13 l' raised'a concern that a particular m.wt should be safety, ~ ~ r - 'related?.
- 2 L,
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. A.: I thin,k'it is a come n f u l: - f o r a lot o.f '.. i. ..3 , -p-: ,. c. q,.. y- .a ~..O.' ~ i x ,'4 iris'pectors: that: there are things' that -u ' nave in a plant 1 t. hat 4 .2 - . y ~ .., :.. : : ~.-.. ~,.
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~ s. ,5 .byythemselves 'are~ not 'safet.y-rc ;ted. ' m. I think most*of3-L n., ' ~6 3 s * .+ theEl accep't that ::bise.d on the definit:o.~- given. 'But"they-
- c.,.
' ';: - -;f.s 7 feel ~ that :to some' extent,, like cpera *.:. .'E a feedwater. pump s, v .a,,y. ,e s,.; s f. n s.4 0g;- .-.c w, . 4'. s., "- 8 ,in' a" BWR,': has ' safety lmpl,ications, and it is a' gray;zon~e~ ,g- ,.9 ..i u _ s. r,- -I -when you get'.:into that. kind of an an .r- - 6,; f"..s '2 + 3 jgc10 g-
- Is that' sort.of 'concc: n rm C o ;arly common? J'"?
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'n ' ~ - r:. ~ .,. ~ ~.. u. a. ~. + .iid. ;. '.K[.~.2., ' l think itlis['comm. on fin.certain are.as,2 like.feedwate"- 4 ' ;1: I. .r. ~2 /. pumps. iiii one'; ' radLwaste.systemMis~ another. Those'are"the only: ~' ' m.e pg..
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,g, ' ones.tha't. really' stand outaini my mind. 4e 3 .f ;..> x -.:.. w - LA - s n - . = 2,:.m. 3 .,eN.,,,,,,, J. . <..~....,.;. y;.. .,-..,y.- ~,...- . =., :., y. s 4 .i~ G. V. g,l 4 11.; A r XI J.dhi~nk'-tci. backlu'p:;to a (question concerning'..the ^.. .~ p .c .;,t.s. c..- 7,.. m .x..... .n N- ..., J,5 i,ncide~ntlthat occurred-at" Davis-BessefingSeptember that I-u y 2 g;.. y ^ u
- forgot tol'a~s
- ~k'e'arlier,. did you give any consideration' to..the 6
~- . n., <..... a-a.: ... ;..m ~.. + f. y possibi.1;ity 'of; changing (thef adm,inistrahive pr.' cedures. to.; a3' i. -7 o .. ~.,- c. ,~ . n. - p .... :p
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.c; . u .,v, y ...; y . :.>I8. t . N.. f. Gdinimiz'ei the jo'ssibility [of'someoneie'movi'ng the relay' that'. .h Y, ,J- .$ (.;... y, ~% {.,..g, ~ ys.. 9 ,,. caused the '.PORVJ tio cycle? - ~ .,, ;.,.R.: -,: - ~ a z>- .t s y~' e,.. - y- .:n '.g '. A1. , "I ~ don' t recall that.1 The' only thing i.do recall.is. - 10 u, ~, >m.2.- r, n r... J w. ....s ^ *r.~.. ..:. a:
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<n.... .u .~ +. - .11 we-asked th....-,m;to:make.~'a 'rather( thor...o u g h.. d o....cument s. search'.to - . *. z e .;~.+ e.. :,. l ).. M ~ %. .. 12 .mak'e 'sure,' that there='we'reinot tother liroblem, arh'a..s. ',1/do'n t .s _ g, _. - -n y.' f 2. *' .. + '. 3 ": .X .. ~ n.>. p; - td 13 recall' that we,a'sked.,them notf.to put inJ:ajprocedureithatCfou? A. .m. e... c c.....~ .s. <w x .w .,3--. don'ti put in components'.a IL wol11d...think s,'omething'.:11.1.E.e..';.t.hatii ' 14 r..u. ,~g.... . n-. .w ? .g. m ; ' almost?goes' witho,ut saying'.. I [ don'$t knowi,if we' didior? no..t; 15 e.
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.. ~ 2 ..,-~% .mr J'. ~ 18 -a los.s'of. coo.lant accident?u e M. . e.- I can't' recall specifically whether ;w,e addressed.the ~ ~ .. 19 .A- , 5.-: 3 4.. 20 'f ac t - tha t'. they. ' did or not.- m.:- g - -. Do-you. know of any other ' precursor events that. are ,,;. 21 i .G',.. ., ^ ...r 22 ' relevant'to..the" accident at TMI?s s ' 23 A You're talki~ng.about'other than the situations where oth'e'r' s'ites 'ha've' had ' operator errors? I mean.,..not related to 24 ~ - Am. Federal Reporters. Jnc. . t. 25 Three. Mile-Island? ~. g q b ~ E ..,s -G . ~ --..-.n ,.. ~ .... ~. ~. ..t-e - I jr i'... ~..
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' ~ s a ~ l ,o mte 7-4 '80 . that the citation was not in order because they.. felt they had I 2 .everything under control. It has been so long ago,~ I.dori't ~ T / 3 remember what the transient was. mU-G Would you'havelany;mo're detaile'd'information. about 4 S' that particular transient in the files?~ 7, l 6,I; A. I should.be able to find it in the fil'es'. ' 7 G -Could you find it for us and provide'a copy if' you 8 would? ~ q.i. ^ .x .. y' 9 A. Yes. 1 + 10 0 Thank you. e,- .,u 7 e I- +-- 'y ~.. ~ 11 Do you hav'e any.adiitional-informaEion~tha't'mightb. d ~
- L 12 be~ relevant to our inquiry into the events surrounding #the" r
); 7, Q 13 accident at TMI?, , 2, n. g..- %u., 4. 4 y;, e ri s, ,,...e,- r... ., y._ ', 3
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,y.. .... ~ >;. z. _. , q u ;, 14 - ' A. ' I can ' t think 'o, f any 'that ~ w'e' didn t,di5_.cus s'.. ' : 1.' ',; 2 15 MR. IIEBDON : Do you have'any additional ~ questions?, .16 MR. FOLSOM: I can't think of any.-:- .', ~.. F 17 MR. IIEBDON : Do you have anything else to add?- 7[ ', 'i, 18 TIIE WITNESS : No.'- 19 .MR.. I!EBDON : Okay. Thank you'very much. 20 (Whereupon, a t 11: 25 a.m., the interview.was ~~ e-7 21 concluded.) ^' r 23 9. g 24 Ace Federal Reporters, ide. H ~ ' ' ~ ' ' ~ '25 N ,[ I t a n .;n .n w .u + . u r. _"..yy*~ ^'- ~*--w==*^}}