ML19320C698
| ML19320C698 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 06/30/1980 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8007170587 | |
| Download: ML19320C698 (43) | |
Text
+
/
'q,,
UNITED STATES E"
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
,I' W ASHINGTON,0.C. 20555
%,,,,, +*
June 30, 1980 OFFICE OF THE SECRCTARY COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC OISCLOSURE UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE GUNSHINE ACT OF:
Transcript of Briefing by Carl Bennett on Standing Advisory Group on Safeguards Implementation (IAEA) and Other International Safeguards Matters, December 15, 1977 PursuanttotheCommission'sr$gulationsimplementingthe Government in the Sunshine Act (10 CFR 9.108(d)), it has been determined after a further review of this transcript that additional portions of the text can be released to the public.
Attached are all portions of the subject transcript that have been determined to be releasable.
The remaining portions of the transcript remain withheld pursuant to 10 CFR 9.104 as noted below:
Page/Line through Page/line Exemption 6/15 6/24 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 8/l 8/15 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 9/13 9/25 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 10/1 10/1 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 10/5 10/17 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 10/19 10/21 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 12/6 12/10 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 13/1 13/23 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 14/24 14/25 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1) 15 -
41/end 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (1)
\\
/
c...A
[
Samnel
)
Se retary of thd Commissio r
8007170 NI
.g,
e f
.s
- p. :g,,
7-
.~..y NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
(
as.==
- .....;u,
- ....,. a.x 5
~
.IN THE MATTER OF:
BRIEFING 'aY CARL BENNETT ON FORTHCOMING MEETING OF STANDING ADVISORY GROUP ON SAFEGUARDS DELEMENTATION (IAEA) AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL SAFEGUARDS MATTERS r
s Place - Washington, D.C.
Date - December 15, 1977 Pages 1 - 41 T.i.chen..
(202)347 3700 l
ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.
OfficalReponers
.u A Nodh C ;:itol Street W,:shington, D.C. 20001 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE. D AILY
s s.
c 1
sc 1
2 3
g,
. v....
....~
x.
t:=.=.
4 5
BRIEFING BY CARL BENNETT l
6 ON 7
FORTHCOMING MEETING 8
OF 9
STANDING ADVISORY GROUP 10 ON 11 SAi'EGUARDS IMPLEMENTATION. (IAEA) 12 AND
('
13 OTHER INTERNATIONAL SAFEGUARDS MATTERS 14 15 16 17 10:30 a.m.,
Thursday, December 15, 1977 18 19 Commissioners' Co6ference Room 20 D'.
C. Office z wi-Present:
Commissioner Victor Gilinsky 22 A ting Chairman c@.+.
,=
23 Commissioner Peter A. Bradford 24 Commissioner Richard T. Kennedy Ace-Feiferol Reporters, loc.
25
e l
,.c.
i CR 5858 1
Engicberg
~
PROCEEDINGS
~----------
ch 41- a 2
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Dr. Bennett, we are happy 2
.3 to have you.here.
. a._ _
W 4
We are all here about safeguards, and first we would 5
like to find out what SAGSI is.
At least, I would.
6 DR. BENNETT:
Well, basically SAGSI, which is an 7
acronym for Standing Advisory Group on Safeguards Implementation, 8
was sponsored by primarily by the Japanese.
It was essentially 9
one of their conditions for the recent ratification of the 10 treaty.
Il The best place, probably, to see how SAGSI came into 12 being and the kind of arguments by which it came into being is
~
[
_ g' 13 an Adelphi paper that was written by R. /mai, back in about 14 1973, in which he describes nuclear -- the Adelphi paper is OA 15 from the London School of International Affairs is on nuclear 16 safeguards.
17 It both'gives you an idea of the Japanese feeling 18 towards safeguards,,,and also specifically his interpretation IN RmCC 19 of the writing of Incert 153, and twice in there he mentions 4
20 that there is room for a committee of experts who would basi-ryFClM 21 callyinterpretthetechnicalportionsoffnemL153thatwere 22 left sort of open because of so many nations being involved.
.l l5%
e=
23 There are things like detection of significant 24 quantities, and phrases like "early detection," and so forth, he Feel Reporters. Inc.
25 which had no meaning, no quantitative meaning or no particular
. ee m
5.
t
)
j 3
1 discussion as to what they meant in terms of the intensity 2
of IAEA safeguard's that wer,e to be applied.
These are in CT3' 3 DA paragraphs 28 and;30 of Inscrt 153.
6%m.
A
=
u=
4 The other specific thing that's mentioned in connec-5 tion with SAGSI in there is.the SAGSI committee of experts, 6
IN FO l#'A' S
which became SAGSI, is the fact that,Inses* 153~also calls for
- 5 7
the modification of safeguards as technical developments take 8
place, and that was to be considered by such a standing 9
committee.
10
+
As a matter of fact, I think underlying these rather 11 two specific, or more or less a little bit superficial reason 12 for SAGSI is the fact that the Japanese were interested in
~
1,3 having just one more mechanism in place to assure themselves, 14 or assure their people, that the deal they got with respect 15 to IEAE safeguards was not one whit different than anybody 16 else's.
They just simply wanted to be assured that there was 17 no non-uniform application of safeguards, and in particular 18 that the agreements that they got or the treatment that they 19 got under the IAEA was nc.t substantially different from any 20 other country.
They just put this in as one more mechanism.
TheyorkginallywantedSAGSItoberesponsibletothe Board of Governors, actually, and they accepted the argument of the Director General, however, that he did not feel that 24 Ace-Federol Reporters, lac. such a body would be appropriate, for such a body to be 25 responsible to the Bo,ard of Governors, and therefore it was Y
- - - - - - - ~ -
___ _ )
I made responsible ' to the. Director General.
2 So in,that sense we were brought into being as a 3
sort of an interpretative body in one sense, and an evaluative ff.
4 body in another sense.
It's got something of evaluation in 5
the sense of an overseeing body, but it's also got this tech-6 nical, this int,erpretative business of furthering and inter-
~r.9 M tLG ypg 7
preting the 1nouit 153, as it applies to the application of 4
8 safeguards under subsidiary arrangements.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Just the 153, not the others; 10 DR. BENNETT:
No.
It applies to the otherr, but 11 I am saying the reason it came into being is primarily associ-12 ated 'with 153. It's not limited to 153.
13 It's not coincidental that SAGSI came into existence 14 and had its first meeting in 1975, just prior to the Japanese 15 ratification of the MPT.
16 I think possibly they used this internally as some 17 assurance to their people that they would have another path 18 or another voice in controlling their own destiny with respect 19 to the application of safeguards in Japan.
I don't know that, 20 but I suspect that's true.
(pg21
~~
I was asked at that time with the concurrence of 7
gys 22 the various branches,to serve as a representative on that 97=
3 :> 23 committee and have been a representative since December, the 24 first meeting was held the first week in December, 1975.
Ac r.d.,. a p.n.rs, inc.
25 people were elected to two-year ter 3.
There was e
s it
}
i 5
I some -- well, I'm not sure you are interested in the operatiomi 2
aspects, but let Jme say that it was, or the operational aspects, 3
we really voted our own terms of reference.
rm:
~~
d Matters can be brought to SAGSI by members or by 5
the Director General, the Secretariat.
6 There were some internal problems with respect to 7
who would be the executive scientific secretary of the group 8
and the DG originally wanted one of his staff, I think, but 9
Romitch objected pretty strenuously to this and I think won 10 the argument that he should be the scientific secretary.
TOME.TSCN
~
II COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
EcLitch?
Ro tAETSO N I2 DR. BENNETT:
Rcmitch is the --
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is ncmitch on this group 14 somehow?
15 DR. BENNETT:
Well, not on the group.
He is the 16 scientific secretary.
He is sort of secretary to the secretary R OM E.'Isc H 17 of the agency and the person of Remsteh acts as the secretary.
g 18 He has no vote in any sense, no, no appointment to the group, J
19 but he is always present and acts as the secretary.
20 COMMISSIONER KE,NNEDY:
The Secretariat provides all 21 essential services?
22 DR. BENNETT:
The Secretariat provides all essential
- E:.
Esi 23 services to the group.
See, we are serving at the request of 24 the Director General, but with the consent of our government.
keFedcot Reponws, inc.
l 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How many members are there?
k s ** -
6 e
I DR. BENNETT:
Ten.
The list of members, I think, 2
is in the material, but there are ten members besides myself, 3
John Jennekens of Canada is chairman.
O 4
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Are the countries members 5
or individuals?
6 DR. BENNETT:
Individuals are members, and they 7
serv'e at the request of the Director General and with the B
consent of their governments.
9 It was attempted to keep this as much of a technical 10 body as possible, in the sense that we decided early in the II game not to have advisors present.
For instance, our meetings 12 are essentially closed, even to the missions, and we de not 13 have mission people with us in the meetings, only secretariat I4 people are present at the_ meetings of the group...
15 16 17 18
' ~.. -.
1.
...~. :
~
20 ::n. - <-<:
wo r ?..~c r1
..n:
=' : -
21 22 23 24 I Federal Reporters. Inc.
e 25
~
COhhISSION'GILINSK Is Jennekens still chairman?
(~'
j 2
i s.-
7 1
DR. BENNETT:
Jennekens is still chairman.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is Imai in this group?
3 DR. BENNETT:
Imai is on tl,le group, yes.
The group 6
IN FC IR.C.
g3 4
that you will reebgnize frem they..rcrt 153, Imai is on the 5
group, Jennekens is on the group; Gupta; Fred Brown of England; 1Ms H
gg
,,Fre/chman is not one of the group in paris, but is a man by 6
7) 7 the. name of Guillet from Marcouf, who is a very good man, and
~
8 Ramanian from. India. _
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
How often do you meet?
10 DR. BENNETT:
Twice a year.
We.have it pretty 11 well established at.':wice a. year.
Next year it will be three 12 times' I think because we got one meeting postponed, so we are
, /]
13 sort of making it up.
i4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What, about a week or a day?
15 DR. BENNETT:
A week. One week.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What do you do?
17 DR. BENNETT:
We have taken up two topics so far.
S 18 One is we were asked to comment early in the game on a /pecial 3
Z R
g$
19 f afeguards haplementation /eport in terms of its form and con-20 tent, technical form and c.ontent of what should be in this 21 report.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is thi. the SSIR?
23 DR. BENNETT:
This is the SSIR that has come into 1
24 being.
The other question --
j
, Ace-Fedorol Repof'erS. IRC.
1 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Was that done at U. S.
1 o
8 I
DR. BENNETT:
2 l
3 i
l s.
4 5
7 8
CO.W.ISSIONER GILINSKY:
9 10 DR. BENNETT:
11 12 13 14 15 I0 One of the battles that was originally won was that I7 the Secretariat had initially introduced as the first topic I8 for SAGSI consideration the considerable problems they were I9 having with the quantification of safeguards goals, wh=tt pre-a.k 20 p
cisely should we be aiming.to detect u the individual facili-21 ties or in states, and so forth.
In other words, the interpre-IW FCIRC 22 g$
tation of paragraphs of 28, 29 and 30 of c..; =t 153.
23 A secondary introduction was the possibility of C
S SS 24 considering the form and content of a fpecial fafeguards w.d-ei n.penm. ac. y e
- f.mplementationpeport.
~ - -.....
t,.:.
_,).
l 9
.-J I
We persuaded, agenda-wise we reversed the considera-2 tien of these, and the first meeting was sort of an organiza-3 tional meeting, but in the May-June meeting of 1976, we m.
4 decided, at the insistence of this group, to consi. der the i
5 SSIR first.
That is because there are many of us that felt 0
that some kind of an evaluative report, some basis for accounta--
7 bility on the part of the agency, was an absolute necessity
. 8 to any improvement in the situation, and I still feel very much 9
that way, personally, that you just have to have some kind of 10 report on the stewardship of the responsibility before you 11 could get anywhere with improving things.
12 I think that that report has had, in that sense,___
h
$ 13, 4.es effect it was supposed to have.
15 16 17 18 19 20
..s 21 I.
22 j
i j
23 i
24 c w.nl st.pe=n. lac.
25'
i, -e.
10 i
j i
i 2
COMMISSIONER KEN 5iUDY:
What's the relationship now 3
between the role SAGSI.pjays and the followup or processing of m
4 the SSIR tithin tlie Agency?
5 DR. BENNETT:
l 6
l 7
~
8 i
9 i.
10 j
11 12 13, 14 I
15
.~._
17 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You :nean subsequent reports?
19 DR. BENNETT:
20 21 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
This is in the future?
23 DR. BENNETT:
In the future.
I 24 No, this present one, no, even the present one was he-Federal Repor*ers, lac.
25 l not reviewed by SAGSI I
i i
5 11 s-i
, hF COMMISSIONbR GILINSKY:
So basically you simply 1
..p '
2 nrgaitham to go forward' with this report and then they went a
3 forward with the report.
4 DR. BENNETT:
The sequence is that in May in 1976, 5
do you see what I mean, they prepared for us a prototype SSIR, 6
based on '75 data.
Based on our.May-June,
'76, meetings, they 7
revised that prototype and it's that prototype report that 8
was then considered at the October,
'76, meeting as being a 9
satisfactory prototype of what the SSIR should be.
10 At that point, using that as a prototype, the
~
11 Secretariat decided that instead of rushing that prototype to 12 the Board in February of
'76, they would prepare another report.
13 The first SSIR, which was submitted to the Board 14 in June, was based on '76 data, entirely prepared by the 15 Secretariat and not produced by SAGSI.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You meant February, '77?
17-DR. BENNETT:
- February,
'77, yes.
And the June,
'77, 18 report, the present SSIR, Gov 1842, is a new report based on 19
'76 data, which is not the '75 prototype which was reviewed 20 by SAGSI.
21 Now, it's my personal opinion, and after some con-22 sultation, too, that I do not want to see SAGSI become an agen'cy$justanotherblockthroughwhichever'ythingtheagency
- fji 23 24 has to do has to go.
MeFe$es\\ Roomn. Inc.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Would you be cc=menting on 4
1
t:.-
12
'/
I the form of the report, for example, certain things ought to 2
be included or not included.
3 DR. BENNETT:
That's right, and there was a tremen-4 dous argument, for instance, on the degree of detail which 5
s ;uld be proved in the report.
7 8
9 10 11 Our delegation and others took a very strong stand 12 that the detail should be provided for those people who wanted 13' to examine it.
jg COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
This is p detail of the 15 SAGSI comments, or the detail from the SSIR?
16 DR. BENNETT:
The detail in the SSIR.
You see, we I7 were arguing as to the degree of detail with which the evalua-18 ll tion and the activities of the Agency should be reported.
19
~
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is there any significant 20 resistance to.the idea of having an SSIR at all?
21 DR. BENNETT:
Using the words "significant resis-22 tance," no.
The idea of having an accountability, I think, was l
I.
23 accepted as pretty.well acceptable.
l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Varyinc decrees of enthu-he-Feder;l Reoorters, Inc.
~
~
25llsiasm?
-~
=
13
.7 I
-7 DR. BENNETT:
g t
3 l
4 5
6 7
5.
8 9
10 11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
12
~^-.
13-
- k. /
DR. SE!METT:
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 i
23 24 One of the things I did at'the origination of S.:GSI, he-Feder:I Reporters, Inc.
25 back as early as January of '76, was to ask to meet with an i
.~
~.
i 14
_.p',e I
interagency group r' presenting all those people who were e
2 basically interested in safeguards and safeguards problems, 3
and say, hey, I would like to be kept informed on U. S. posi-.
.R 4
tions.
I mean, I want to know t.his.
5 This group has met regularly since then.
Every time, 6
it's not that I essentially bind myself to act in accordance 7
with the U. S. position, but I certainly want to know what it.
8 is and keep myself informed.
9 In this case, my own position, taking all this into 10 account, was that this degree of detail was a very important Il thing.
I2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is your salary paid by the 13 U. S.
or by the IAEA?
I4 DR. BENNETT:
By the U.
S.
Expenses are paid by 15 the IAEA for all these meetings, or have been so far, but my 16 salary, I am supported by the DOE through the DS, Division of 17 Safeguards and Security, and spend approximately half of my 18 time on SAGSI matters, on keeping myself in a position --
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is that the situation with 20 the other.SAGSI members?
In other words, is each of the 21 countries --
22 DR. BENNETT:
Each of the countries is supporting 23 their own.
We are not supported by the IAEA.
2#
~
COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
l Acefedertl Repor*ers, Inc.'
25 l
1 f
l
\\
c
/
V 15 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 O
9 10 11 12 2
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6
1 2A
e 9
s 16 g1 i
.)
.e Y
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 il l
15 16 17 18 19 4
20 21 22 23 24 25 l'
b L
e
..I 17
,r-
- s.
O 2'
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12
'13' 14 15
-16 17 18-19
-20 1
21' 22 23 24 25-e g
F' 18 w
?f.,"
o 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i
f.
0 4
19 i
1p'
..gf
'*r
,e 1
2.
3 4
5 6
7 8
O G
9 10 11
~
12 A) il 14 15 16 17 18 19 20-1 21 22 t'
i-I:
-23 9
24 43 l
i
-- 1 i
-g-
"J 20
+
,. %l
--2,,<-
1 2
4 3
4 5
6
'7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 O
I I
I o
/
21 3
h 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
I 8
9 10 11 12 13 i
i 14
~
15 16 17 18 l
i 19 1
20 21 22 23 24 25 o
O t
/
22
?
S'
- r 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13
\\!
I' 14 3
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i
l
w-k h
23 g
e f
,e 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12
)
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 S
- - x- -
24 e
1
.=
,-O gn[
- y I
i 1
.y
.2 9
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 e
11
', 12 13 14 15 16-17 18 19 e
20 21~-
22 23 24 25 O
e 4
25
.l
-v.
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 E
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 l
e e*
26 e
/
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
O
~
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I
T
6 2
27
_o*
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 19 1
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5
9 8
28 4
/
-9" 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 4
15 16 17 18 1
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 e
.i0 w
6 29 4
-y 9
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 l
25 t
l t
1 i
l
6 30 l,
- ;,f' o
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
~ '
20 21 22 23 24 25 I *
!l
e e
31
?
,k
,:z f
- 0 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
[.
e 32 O
j-r 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 6
..o I
..14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 l
23 24 k
25 i
a
4 s
33
,e*
,' I 9
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 e
e
9 b
34
,/
.>', l 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 1
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 S
l
w 6
e g
9 35 8
P*
/
- ',w" 9
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I
I
h 4
36
/
1 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
3, 6'
y.
es PO f
1 2
8 3
4 5
6 I
8 9
10
_1 _1 12 13 i
14 15 16 17 18 1S 20 21 22 23 24 25 l
I li i
G b
e e**
38 e
4 s
- 1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
.e e
39
. ~,*
r 1
2 3
4 !l 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 l
13
{
i 14 i
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i !
I i
e a.-
40 d
'l f
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 D
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 l
i L
I t
e 4
P 41 o
1 9
t S
3 4
5 6
7 6
9 10 11 12 i
l 1
14 I
i 15 16 l
17 1S 19 20 21 22 23 O
24 25 e
.