ML19320C506
| ML19320C506 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 03/08/1979 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19320C496 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8007170296 | |
| Download: ML19320C506 (49) | |
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[,,3 Transcript of Proceedings t
i NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION p
DISCUSSION OF EXPORT MATTER (Closed to Public Attendance)
March 8, 1979 s
Pages 1 - 49 Prepared by:
C. H. Brown Office of the Secretary 8007130 8 fe
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
!li Discussion of Export Matter 4
l (Closed to Public Attendance) 5 l
t I
6 i
7 Chair' man's Conference Room 8
1717 H Street, N.W.
I Washington, D.
C.
9 Thursday, March 8, 19 3 11 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 2 :40 p.m. i 557 Joseph Hendrie, Chairman of the Commission, presiding.
13 14 PRESENT:
15 Chairman Hendrie-Commissioner Gilinsky 16 Commissioner Kennedy Commissioner Bradford 17 Commissioner Ahearne 18 ALSO PRESENT:
19 L.
Gossick J.
Hoyle 20 J.
Shea G.
Oplinger 21 J.
Becker R.
Burnett 22 M.
Peterson J.
Dunn Lee
[_3) 23 T.
Sherr
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J.
Devine 24 L.
Bickwit C. Stoiber 25 i
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PROCEEDINGS 5
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Y) 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay, we a:e off'and runnin'g y!
.ll on a Commission session on export matters, specifically 3
4 having to do with the Taiwan licenses.
5 !!
We will be discussing classified information, l'
6 ;l so the meeting is closed and the classification lehel, I t
hguess, is generally Secret.
Is that a fair characterization,'
7 a
8 l Jim?
9 MR.
SHEA:
Yes, I think so.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Now, there are two aspects that 11 we wanted to cover this afternoon.
One of them is a summary 12 of what I will call the nationhood problem which appears to-557
.13 offer some difficulties for Commission action on licenses 14 to export to Taiwan.
We will have that summary from 15 Counsel's office.
16 Beyond that, we are getting started on a matter 17 that I think would be very useful and that Dick suggested, 18 and that is that it would be a good idea to begin to look' 19 at the aspects of the outstanding licenses for Taiwan.
20 With regard to matters other than the nationhood 21 problem, and if, as,, and when that clears, the result of 22
. legislation or some other suitable form of magic, why ~
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23
'then we would be able 'to take fairly' expeditious action.
2J So we have these two sorts of things that we
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25 want to treat this afternoon.
Why don't I start out by it L
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asking Counsel and his folks for a summary on the nation-T'
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2 3 hood situation.
I understand they met recently with the
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Department of State lawyers.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Could I ask a question at 5 j!
the outset in that connection?
'I 6
CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Why not.
I 7
COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I wrote the Department of l
8
_ State a rather lengthy letter on the 5th of February on that 9
very question.
The first question of a number that I sent 10 to them.was:
"Does Taiwan meet the nationhood requirements
-l 11 set forth in the Atomic Energy Act, and if so, what is the i
12 specific legal basis for that conclusion?"
I have not yet
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13 had a response to that letter.
14 Could Counsel, if they have been discussing this 15 with State's counsel discuss that and also, indicate whether 16 they have any intention of replying to my letter, or should 17 I drop them a note reminding them that they have it.
18 MR. BICKWIT: We'll contact them.
19 Our purpose is to bring you up te date on our 20 legal analysis, and basically, we adhere to the posit (on 21_
diat is in the paper that you -- the January 30th papar I
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that you have.
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-23
. We still can't advise that ' exports can be a
24 legally issued, absence the legislation.
With legislation 125 l of the sort that is being considered, our view is that the l
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jthresholdlegalimpedimentswillberemoved, and our
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- l. best reading is that it appears that the legis'lation will 3
- , cass in about two or three weeks.
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And in light of that, it was our view, and I know
[ the view of the Chairman and Commissioner Gilinsky, that 3
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the Co= mission may as well focus on any other questions f
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- associated with the licenses so that these can be eliminated M
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. and the licenses can issuf closely after enactment, assuming I
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9 the bill, as presently draf ted, is not altered.
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10 As far as our meeting with State is concerned, 11,! they made four arguments.
They do not buy ours.
That would 12 be the answer to your question request.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's only the answer to I.
14 '
the first half.
15 I
The second half is.what is their legal basis for 16
- that.
i 17 MR. BICKWIT:
I'll give that one to you next.
18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Why can't they write it' 19 to.us?
Do they feel uncomfortable with it?
i 20 MR. BICKWIT:
I don't plan to be their apologist.
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I wondered if they had i
l said anything to you.
22
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23 li MR. BICKWIT: They did not.
They first argue that the question that we pose, 24 9
which is essentially does Congress intend to continue nuclear 25 :
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1 commerce with an entity not treated as a nation.for 2
purposes of our foreign policy.
I can say that biases htheanswerabit, and they would have been mero comfortable 3
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4 i with the question of did Congress intend to continue exports 1
5 to Taiwan in the event of normalization.
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I guess our response is that you can pose these 7
questions any number of. ways..
Their question, I feel, J
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- l. biases the ancwer a bit because you might be inclined to 9
!! ansver yes, if you' felt the Congress wanted to continue I
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exports to Taiwan, even if they didn't use the word l
11 ' nationhood.
sy, 12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What date are they thinking
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.13 of in that question?
14 MR. BICKWIT:
When the nationhood requirement was 15 passed, when was it, '627 16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
'54, wasn't it.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Then the question would 18 then be that even if you answered yes, at tha.t time you 19 would have to ask, in what manner did Congress think that the 20 normalization would occur.
21 MR. BICKWIT:
Yes.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think it is
'54, it
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23 would have been.
24 MR. BICKWIT:
I think we could-have sat there 25 quite some time and probably would not have been able to p
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agree on a common question.
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2 In any case, whatever question you ask the answer
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The ansver is unclear?
'5 MR. BICKWIT:
I think the answer is unclear.
6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: But they do not agree with 7
that?
i 8
MR. BICKWIT: Yes, they do.
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9 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Oh, they do.
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MR. BICKWIT:
The way they phrased it was they felt I
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the arguments, on the one side, were as good as the arguments 12 on the other.
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6EF 13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: But could you take that just 14 one step farther.
That is '.n the present circumstances, but 15 if legislation were passed and the legislation implied that, 16 in fact, Congress did intend that exports go forward or e
17 that relations continuai as they have been in the past, 18 would that then meet the requirement?
19 MR. BICKWIT: Sure.
20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Okay.
21 MR. BICKWIT: And we wouldn't dispute that.
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22 It is cles: taat their reading is a strange one,
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23
'that----
24 COMMASSTohfR AHEARNE:
To them too?
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MR. BICKWIT:
Yec, I think they would have to admit i,
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that, and given that there is no legislative history to
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2 support a strange reading, we adhere to the view that we 3
can't go with that strange reading.
I felt we ought to 4
cover ourselves in that.
g 54 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
You favor a reasonable 6
use of English.
7 MR. BICKWIT:
'In the absense of strong legislative
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8 history we are going the other way.
- i 9
(Laughtsr) 10 MR. BICKWIT:
Their second argument had us going' 1 1,; for a while, which is that basically what we are dealing 1.
rf 12 !! with in the situation is an understanding that there was
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14 ] we recognized, and all that has really changed is that ii 15hwearenowdealingwith.e"othergovernment.
So that in e
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essence, you have a nation and you have the same nation that e
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The problem is that the agreement is not ---
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COMMISSIONZR KENNEDY:
-- with that nation.
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19 MR, BICKWIT:
Right.
i 20 The third argument they make ---
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And what do they say to that?
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22 MR.-BICKWIT: We couldn't come up with it on the l
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
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MR. BICKWIT:
Well, we were acutally going around it te a
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2 honenation.
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3 MR. BICKWIT:
We have always viewed it as a nation.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, not always.
Since
-5 about 1971, I think.
6 j MR. BICWIT:
Well, our position under the I
7 Shanghai Communique has-been that we acknowledge ---
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8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: It pre-dates that if one go,es 9
back and looks at the annual reports of foreign policy issued 10 by President Nixor, by a few months.
11 MR. BICKWIT: I see.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The position is that we
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=7 13 have for some years recognized that the People's Republic 14 is a nation?
15 MR. BICKWIT:
No.
We have always recognized, 16 since
'71, that there was a nation called -- well, the 17 problem is that there was a single nation and that Taiwan 18 was ---
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
China isn't a nation.
20 MR. BICKWIT: Well, part of it.
The only thing 21 that has changed is we now believe that a different government 22 is running it.
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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
We never said at that time,
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l MR. BICKWIT: That's right.
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So that type of argument r
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then would say that if it was legal to 1icenseffor Taiwan 4
3 before, then it is still legal?
4 MR. BICKWIT:
That is right.
They tried to analogiz(
5 i it in essence to the situation to where you have an 6
- acknowledged nation and you simply changed your initiative 7 [ of who you are dealing with.
And under those circumstances, t
8 [ we would say we would advise that exports would be legal.
1 In other words, if the agreement ---
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1 10 li CHAIRMAN EENDRIE:
Well, if the Swiss Government-tr 11 lj decided to call thenselves George, we could probably, within the 12 Commission's sweep of things, especially if the State g,,
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13 Department sent us a letter saying, well, we now call them 14 George..
I expect we could make the transition.
It is the 15 same group of people, the same fellow signed the papers "i
16 and are carrying out the thing, and it is the same government !
17 i with the same policemen and buildings and courts and clubs 18 and all the rest of it.
But on Taiwan, it is a different 19 set of people and a different government located in a differen.
20 placewithwhomthisthingcalledanagreementwasno[
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' is one set too many for our purposes.
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COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
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13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
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15 MR. BICKWIT: Their third argument is that even if jj 16 there is a problem under the statute, the Executive Memorandud 17 relieves us of that problem, and we hold to the principle j
18 that any action by the President cannot substantively change i
19 the expressed provisions in the statute.
They do not adh'ere a
to that.
We just had to part on that issue.
20 F
21 MR. STOIBER:
I have r-interesting note here
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i 22 that the Foreign Relations Committee of the Senate also
.S 23 parted company with them'on that.
On page_41 of the
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. report the Committee says that it doubts that the power to 25 issue this directive is within the authority conferred upon i
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And they then say, I
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therefore, it is the-Committee's judgment, the enactment of 3
3 these provisions, that is the. provisions of the Statute, 4
is legally required, not simply politically desirable, but 5 [ legally required if the President is to be enabled to 6
continue to conduct the myriad of programs concerning e
[ Taiwan.
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8 ji COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, the State Department, 9
in writing to the' Congress didn't make it as blunt as they F
10;; did to you, did they?
e 11 MR. BICKWIT:
They didn't make it as blunt as they
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14 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes. I guess they would 15 be very hesitant about making it very bluntly.
16 3m. BICKWIT: That's right.
17 l
In light of this, given our interpretation, our i
18 General Counsel's office was accused of having-a Capitol 19 Hill bias, jokingly.
20 Then finally ---
21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I would have thought it i
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That Capitol Hill had an NRC bias.
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MR. BICKWIT:
Their final point is'that they.
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_24 hoped that the Commission would'not come down on this 25 ll question, given that there was no need to understand various l
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policy options available to you, and that if by chance this
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crack at us, which would obviously,they would be harmed 4
j by your having come down on the side of our memorandum.
.l And I think that is a good point.
If you were inclined ta 5
6 go in the direction of our advice, there is no reason for 7
you to actually come down on that side in this proceeding.
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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
In other words, if we b
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are predisposed to issue the license, go ahead, but as a GM 10 matter of fact, we
- n 'A 11 MR. BICKWIT:
Now, with respect to the -- the 12 bottom line with respect to this point is that our advice gy e
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13 remains that it is not legally permissible to go forward.
14 I'd like Carl to speak to the question of whether 15 it would be under the legislation.
16 MR. STOIBER:
What I would like to do,if we have 17 sufficient time,is to basically run through the Statute 18 now as it exists.
I'm not clear if the Senate will be 19 able to finish this legislation this week, although I 20 believe the House may well complete its action on the bill.
21 Chairman Zablocki has made his intentions to do that known, 22 l and he would like to see it out of the committee.
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2) 23 In the event that at that point, these enactments, 24 these two dif ferent enactments as they emerge from either 25h house, and that would be, of course, the Conference Committee l f
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and ---
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Are they substantially 3
different?
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MR. STOIBER: They are substantially different in ll the sense that the Senate version is a much more highly 5
1 6
j developed document in the reports.
The House version 7
parallels, I think, to a' greater extent, the ' version 3
8 f submitted by the Administration.
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What I would like to do is run through the key 10lj v
portions of the Senate bill which is entitled "The' Taiwan 11 Enabling Act",
S. 245.
We did forward a copy of the 12 Administration version to you on January 31st, but it has
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=E7 13 been considerably revised since that time.
It was reported 14 out of the Committee to the floor on March 1st and its 15 structure is in five titles.
The first 14 sections on 16 Taiwan deal with specific aspects of continued cooperation 17 of Taiwan.
Title 2 contains implementing provisions for 18 the American Institute on Taiwan, the appropriate entity l
19 which we are establishing to conduct these relations.
20 Title 3 contains the authorization for the 21 appropration of funds.
Title 4 provides for a Congressional l
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22 review of agreements entered into by the AIT and the
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' reporting requirement,and Title 5 makes the enactment
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24 retroactive to the first of the year, and contains a I
25 separate. holding clause.
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Title 1 is the one that is important for purposes 1
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2 !i of the Commission's review of these licenses and'I'd like 3 ;
to run through, very quickly, the 14 sections and point out i
4 where they specifically impact the Commission's licensing l
a 5 i authority.-
1 6
I think, by way of introduction, we, in the General
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7 j Counsel's office believe-that as currently framed, the 8
Statute would enable the Commission to continue its 9
licensing activities with respect to Taiwan and would resolve 10 the legal problems cor nected with the status of Taiwan and-11 I
the authorities on Taiwan and I will try to explain to you 12 how^the Act attempts to do that.
,g, veer 13 First of all, Section 101 of the Act makes all 14 domestic, United States laws which refer to a state or a 15 nation applicable and nakes that include Taiwan.
Page 23 16 of the section-by-section analysis of the report makes it 17 clear that that also applies to the Atomic Energy Act of 1954.
18 That was listed specifically in the report as one of the' 19 domestic United States statutes which is to be included 20 here.-
This is one of the several sections which deal with 21 the nationhood requirements.
22 One addition to Section 101, which was put in jh 23
'by the Senate, dealt with the problem that was discussed 24 here in your last meeting about this locution, " people on
'25 Taiwan," and what that actually means.
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The Senate has now flushed out the definition of "i
2 that phrase to say, " people on Taiwan," as used in this 3
, Act shall mean and include the governing authority on 1
4 j; Taiwan recognized by the United States prior to January 1, J
h1979,astheRepublicofChinawithagencies, instrumentalitier
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ll-andpoliticalsubdivisions; and the people governed by it in 6
F htheislandsofTaiwanandthePescadores.
7 8 r' Now, it seems to me that the basic legal effect of
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9 i that definition is to confer what I would call defacto
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10 j. government status on the people on Taiwan.
I think that
!.i 11 1 is an-important consideration for us in terms of a 12 continuing relationship here, and I think it cures a fairly gc, 722 13 significant defect in the language as proposed by the 14 Administration.
15 Section 102 of the Act provides that diplomatic i
16 relations will not be required to make Taiwan eligible 17 for participation in any program or any series of relations 18 conducted with the United States.
19 Section 103 gives the entity to be established by_
20 Taiwan and that comes up in a further section here. The 21 standard procedure in the United States courts, if our-4 22. entity, ~tdua American Institute in Taiwan has reciprocal i
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23 i ' rights to sue in courts' on Taiwan, so it is a reciprocal f
24 provision or outstanding provision.
I 25 l Section 104 is another significant provision for
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our purposes because what it does is to provide that all E;
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3 j January 1, 1979, entered into by the United States, wilb 4
continue in force and it places the Congress's approval 5 I of that continuation in force on the President's Memorandum i
6 of Law which he issued back in December. So it is, in a sense, t
7 a Congressional ratification of the -- all these past 8
agreements including the agreement with Taiwan 'in the 9
Nuclear Cooperation Agreement.
10 I Section 105 is also extremely important for the 11 I
Commission because it authorizes any programs to be carried 12 ggg out with a foreign state or nation to be carried out with
- EF 13 Taiwan.
Page 25 of the Senate report contains the following 14 lauguage:
"This will assure the continuation of authority 15 for such important programs as arms sales, nuclear exports, 16 and export-import bank financing.
So nuclear exports are 17 specifice '.ly referenced in the report as one of these programs 18 to be continued under Section 105.
19 Section 106 is the section which mandates the 20 carrying out of all relations between the United States and 21 Taiwan through the American Institute on Taiwan is 22 going to be or has been incorporated under the laws of the f'DistrictofColumbia.
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23 So that is the provision which sets 24 up the AIT.
25]i Section 107 is a provision in which the United Statej l
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is to advance human rights in Taiwan through the Institute.
1-2 Section.108 fus another significant one from our
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This also bears upon the agreement for M
4 cooperation requirement because +he statg,that whenever we 5
have to have an agreement in force in order to conduct any-6
' sort of : program or -arrangement, that those kinds of 7
arrangements shall be entered into or performed in force in 8
tdie manner and to the extent directed by the President, by or through the Institute.
This -is particularly significant
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10 in view of the provision in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation llI. Act which requires the renegotiation of agreements for 1:
'12k cooperation, asthisspecificallyauthorizesthisrenegotiatiod j
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L 13 $ process to take place under the auspicious of the American 6n 14 h Institute on Taiwan.
e 15L Section 109, also ---
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see.
If there is 17 a renegotiation, it would be with the Taiwan Institute?
i 18 MR. STOIBER:
Yes.
19
,i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It would be between these
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MR._STOIBER:
That's right.
i 22 j COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
And the signature on the j) 23 I agreement would be?
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MR.- STOIBER: The Director of the Institute or b
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1 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And what would the 4
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~3 MR. STOIBER:
I believe it would be a director of m
the coordinating --' Director of the Coordinating Committee n
S !I for American Affairs.
6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: PO You would probably have 7
ll Senior POTS.
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(Laughter) 9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Most distinguished POTS.
10,i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
POT emeritus.
11 MR. STOIBER:
Moving briskly on to Section 101.
12 This is very important ---
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gy 13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Will somebody tell me what 14
-happened to Senator Percy?
15 MR. BICKWIT:
That was to be passed along.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Was I reading your mail, 17 sorry about that.
18 (Reporter's note:
A message was received for '
19 Mr. Bickwit with regards the Percy Amendm m t t6 20 the Taiwan bill, thus, the above comments.)
-21 MR. BICKWIT:
It doesn't make a lot of sense without 22 some. explanatory note.
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'23 The Percy Amendment ---
24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
I was particularly worried 25 -[ about tabling Percy.
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'l MR. BICKWIT:
The Percy Amendment is an amendment'
= a) 2 which would increase security guarantees for Taiwan over 3
'; and above the Committee reported version.
The Percy 4
l Amendment carries -- you could have a situation where this 5 i! legislation became hung up in con":rence or wherever, and-6 the fact that they failed to table it suggests that that 7 [wouldbetheplacetoca-rryit.
So it is very relevant to 8 i this discussion.
l 9
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Has the House, in fact,
't 10 ll passed legislation yet?
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11 j MR. BICKWIT:
No, but it is on the floors of both P
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12 l the House and the Senate today.
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13 ] COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Today? 14 MR. BICKWIT: Yes. i 15' MR. STOIBER: Section 109 deals with the problem of j 1 16 L assurances and provides that whenever an agency of the i i 17 i United States is required to receive assurances, they shall i 18 l be rendered or provided to or recieved or accepted from i 19 ! an instrumentality established by the people on Taiwan. 20 Now, that is amplified somewhat in the repork 21 that states as follows: This section provides for dealing w.th the people on Taiwan through an instrumentality act 22 (() 23 'of one we already have.'It makes clear that provisions ~ 24, for dealing with a foreign government would be satisfied I ~ .25 l with respect to the people on Taiwan by dealing with that [ t e 1n i: 9,
Y 3 4 8 k-g I; 20 ji
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1 [ instrumentality. For example, the Arms Export Control .m. A3) 2 ]Actauthorizesthesaleofdefensearticlesandservices-3 to foreign countries and it requires those countries to-3 j; 4 ll agree to certain conditions and to provide certain li 5 il assurances. Under the bill, these sales will be made by the f-6 Institute to the Taiwan counterpart instrumentality in the g 1:; agreements and assurance,s by that counterpart instrumen'tality' 7 8 f will be accepted in satisfaction with the requirements of' A 9 ] the Arms Export Control Act. 10 Now, the Atomic Energy Act is not specifically referenced in that section, but in talking with people in 11 12 the Congress, the indication was that the same language ....m.., ~== ~ 13 would apply. 14 Section 110 qualifies Taiwan for purposes of 15 any United States statute to enable courts to enforce Taiwanese law as foreign law or any statute referring to 16 the need to apply foreign law would also be able to apply 17 the law applied on Taiwan. 18 Section 111 provides that no ownership of property 19 interest of Taiwan is to be affected by the recognition of 20 the PRC. This basically deals with the embassy up here 21 at Twin Oaks and other properties. It also preserves. 22 pre-existing contracts entered into by Taiwanese and United .[j) 23 States nationalists. 24 Se tion 112 allows for loans, guarantees and 25 i l
- I it d
-^- ~ 21 1 reinsurance under the Foreign Assistance Act. =@) 2 Section 113 provides for privi.leges and 3 immunities comparable to the diplomatic privileges for 4 representatives of these counterpart agencies as long as cr4- + 5 the;rrecripocal, and Section 114 is the policy article which J 6 also contains the various security guarantees and the grave 7 concern of the United St,ates oi 2r any attempt to resolve 8 the Taiwan issue by force. a 9 9 So those are basically the provisions of the 4 l-Act. In combination, we believe that they do provide a 10 11,. firm legal foundation for continuing relations and do _2_._. 12 q!!resolve the nationhood and reassurance problems. 4EF I ^ I might just mention that the counterpart article 13 in the House bill is Section 201(a) and there is some 14 interesting language in the House report which indicates 15 11 16.0 how the House view is presented. ~ It says: "Likewise, this section does not effect 17 g h:. the future resolution of legal issues based on changed circumstances. It simply makes the fact that the g recognition, irrelevant to the resolution of those issues, f r example, under this section the Nuclear Regulatory 21 Commission would be able to make the required findings and i iI determinations under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 in order
==. 3_sg 23 II. to permit continued nuclear exports to Taiwan and 24 If
- iu' derecognition will not constitute a basis for not making those
T I b s s l 22 g l h 1 findings and determinations. At the same time, there is =- 2 l nothing in this bill that would prevent the Commission 1(fron-takingintoaccountsubsequentchangesandcircum-3 fstancesinitsapplicationtothestatutorycriteriain 4 5 l particular cases." + 6 So this preserves your ability to look at the 7 factual circumstances,just as you would in any other case, 8 to determine whether or not the criteria are met. However,, 9 it makes the fact that derecognition is irrelevant to that 10 determination. We are to treat Taiwan, essentially, as ~ l 11 I we do any other government for the purposes of licensing. 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you, are U.S. i 13 Government personnel going to continue to travel to Taiwan? 14 MR. STOIBER: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: In any particular capacity, 16 or? 17 MR. STOIBER: Not in an official capacity, I 18 don't believe.- That gets you into Title II of the Act. 19 and there are provisions here in which officers or employees I 20 _ of United States agencies may be permitted to serve with 21 the other agency in a nonofficial capacity. I f COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, what happens to 22
- l..
s lg) 2:3 things like physical security inspection or it comes to 24 that,' safeguards or --- l 2 5 j' . COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Or American citizens on Taiwan) E .1
!~. I ~' 23 j 1; d t; b 1 f MR. STOIBER: We did raise that issue.with the . x. 2 State Department and they wanted to assure us that those i; 3 ij matters would be dealt with by the Institute. l 4 l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY : Well, what happens to 5 Jerry Page when he goes on his periodic jaunts around the 6 l world? Does he get to go to Taiwan? I 7-MR. STOIBER: -It says: "Any Department or..." 8 this is Section 202. I'm sorry. 9 MR. BICKWIT: Section 106 provides that U.S. 10 Government program transactions and other relations with' 11 respect to the people on Taiwan shall be carried out through 12 the American Institute in Taiwan. So I would assume that you ma., =En 13 would have to have any activity of the United States 14 running through that Institute. I think there might be a 15 problem with personnel -- Government personnel actually 16 doing inspections. But AIT personnel, there would be no 17 problem with AIT personnel, though. 18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: They could be U.S. 3 19 citizens carrying regular passports temporarily assigned 20 to AIT to do whatever it is they have to do. This is,' [ 21 being done in business in more than one place where we 22 do-not~have diplomatic relations on business, but on [.) 23 ' official business, you' simply had to'do this with a-24 standard tourist passport and n6 indication of orders E l indicating that you were,in fact, visiting there on. 25 Il official business of the U.S. Government. I j-i
] i 1 i l 24 li 1 i ll 1 MR. STOIBER: 201, I think is the applicable d 2 h secrion. It allows any department or agency of the United 0 3 0 States to perform support functions and services for the-N 4 l operations of the Institute and for reimbusement to other 5 l agencies for those services provided. l 6.l If you are talking about a physical security 7 visit, for example, I think what would have -- the way they i 8 ! envision this operating is that the physical security peopl,e l' 9 would be secunded to the American Institute in Taiwan and 10 they would have to perform their services as a liaison 11 officer or as an official of this entity, then they would 12 be, of course, separated --- gg, =- 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Now, the American 14 Institute, presumably, would carry out the U.S. side of 15 the agreement. In other words, certain determinations would 16 need to be made and certain fall-back, safeguard functions 17 that might have to be exercised at some point. I assume 18 that the American Institute then would officially carry 19 out those functions rather than the United States Government. 20 So that agreement is no longer with the United States 21 Government, is that right? 22 i MR. BICKWIT: As no agreements would be with the }[.1 23 ' United States Government. 24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: So nc i oniy is it not l 25 j with the Republic of China, but it is not w ' tP the United i l l o l
I 25 ^* i. 1 States Government either. Now, what control would the -4 2 United States Government here, have over this Institute? 3 5m. STOISER: The Taiwanese entity? 4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Over our entity. 5 MR. BICKWIT: In fact, total control. 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, in what sense, I 7 l: mean, you are obviously going to be appointing the -- who ^ 8 j is it, the Secretary of State appoints the directors or? 9
- 12. STOIBER: The provisions which establish the --
You have two links. You have the statutory link in Taiwan - l 10 '1 11 I which provides that in the instrumentality that we are i gEr., 12 going to set up here, i ~+.::= 1 it is going to conduct its activities ^ 13 d:! in the manner and to the extent directed by the President. 14 -i So it is under his direct executive control, but it is not t 15 j in the same sort of constitutional relationship that one P 16 ordinarily has with an executive agency. It is a special 17 b statutory type control that the President has by virtue e 18 l of this act. 19 The other nature of control is provided under the 20 l articles of Cooperation of the American Institute. 21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: They have to do as 22 directed by the President? .Z2 23 i. MR. STOIBER:.Well, you have directors which are '~ 24 (( appointed by President --- 6 4 25 ' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: As you said, they have to
^ 26 1 1 carry out their functions to the extent and in the manner ,,,,m. se 2 prescribed by the President. 3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Are they removable by t'e h 4 President? - 5 MR. STOIBER: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Without any binding clause 7 or anything like that? 8 MR. BICKWIT: I'm sure they are. 9 COMMISSIONER-AHEARNE: To the extent that legal . 10 minds have been able to come up with it, this is a fairy 11 castle representation of the United States Government on 12 the one hand, and of the Republic of China Government on . s. =EY 13 the other hand? 14 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The Japanese have been doing 15 this for several years.. 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Any other discussion on the 17 nationhood proposition? 18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: We have moved into the ' 19 realm of a true international government in this fictiou5 20 world. 21-CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Now, on the-issue on the merits 22 of the case, aside from who they are. ~ (() 23 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Which case? 24-CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: We have what, four? . 25 MR. SHEA: We have a total of 6 Taiwan exports I-l i t' u g
s ie 27 ll n n f, i {;beforeNRC, that is, completed through the Executive Branch. 1 m.
- nM 2 n review.
0 jl One of 'those is with the staff and the export 3 M 4 'l qualifies as a mino". In our prior referral to the ll 5 ll Commission we have been holding it pending the resoluti.on P 6 ij of these questions. Five of them are actually cleared i 7 with the Commission. Gerry is prepared to summarize those -- g COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I thought I saw where g even the minor ones if they were of a particularly sensitive I 10 character would normally be put before the Commission, and. i 11 I'm sure Taiwan must be in that category. Am I confused 12 about -- maybe I was confused about the way we sort of ,13 agreed on how these things were to be handled. 14 MR. SHEA: I think maybe Marv-could summarize - 15 Part 110 on that. MR. PETERSON: You are correct on this, they 16 17 - may be forwarded to the Commission for review, but in this 18 case the problem is the country jar at issue and not the Particular case, so the case remains minor. 19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So when the major cases go --- 20 MR. SHEA: Then we notify the Commission. 21 MR. PETERSON: There are no other sensitive 22 i ' issues in this Taiwan ' case. d_.i.d. 23-l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Gerry, why don't you go ahead. l 24 MR. OPLINGER: All richt, 25 i The minor case, I might add, is 20 percent material. i
y 1 jl i 29 l 1 i
- .g The other cases are as follows:
2 v We have an application for about 32kg of 20 3 percent material. This is for a water boiler reactor at 4 their research institute. 5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 32 plus 19 is 51. 6 MR. OPLINGER: Where does the 19 come from. 7 ~ 32 kilograms of 19 percent material. 8 i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I see, all right. And the, 9 other one is? 10 MR. OPLINGER: The minor one that I mentioned is - 11 three and a. half kilograms. 12 There is another application for 239,000 kilograms ~ =Er. =m: 13 of LEU for two power. reactors, the Chinshan Units 1 and 2. 14 We have an application zor two power reactors, Tai Power 15 5 and 6 and then we have two cases for depleted uranium. 16 One for 10,000 kilograms and one for 17,000. 17 Now, the first of those, the usage was to make 18 containers for radioisotopes and in the second case, 17,0'00 19 kgs to make shipping casks for spent fuel rods. 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Is that what you make 21 shipping casks out of? 22 MR. OPLINGER: Out of depleted uranium?
- Well, j[)
23 'they use it to line sh'ipping crates. I don't know how 24 common that usage is, but I gather it 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Are these exempt from the l-I
y + h y 6 29 l-a ^ ?i ~ 1 safeguards? .m. c 'T 2 ] CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Depleted uranium? ~ a 3 d Fut. SHEA: They consider it as source material, d i 4 l I believe. 5 ll (Simultaneous discussion.) I 6 ji MR. SHEA: We produced a paper a while back on the f v 7 use of source material. h r i e 8 f COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Is there a shipping cask i, ~ 9 " business on Taiwan? What use do they have for casks? i 10 MR. OPLINGER: The only use for it I know-of is 11 { .-3. 12 spent fuel, w-13 14 15 16 Marv,-do you know anything more about it? 17 MR. FETERSON: The tails material result +.aeg from A 18 th ious or original contract by Taiwan Power Company 19 andrj provides for the return of material, so they j 20 apparently have a cask facility for making casks. 21 MR. OPLINGER: If you want, I can go through these i 22 ' cases briefly to describe what remaining issues we see j() 23 'esides the legal probiems we have been talking about b
- 24 in relation to Taiwan.
2 5 l, CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I think it would be useful to ] Ilo i li U li -e
0 i' = s p 30 F d I a l' f cite those.. =s "F 2 .] MR. OPLINGER: The first one is the question of k 3 0, facility attachments,.and this could raise some problems h under Criterion 1 because of Taiwan's stat"s with the IAEA. 4 n 5 ti They are no longer.. recognized by the agency as occupying - 6 ) the seat of China and in effect, that government is no 7 longer a member of the agency. .i 8 ij COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That's nothing new. 9 ~ MR. OPLINGER: Right, nothing new about that.. 10 Do you want me to stop and read this or --- 11 (Indicating to Ms. Becker who was showing Mr. 12 Oplinger a paper.) =s.,
E
~ ~ 13 MS. BECKER: No. I thought you were familiar with 14 it. 15 16 17 18 MR. OPLINGER: Yes, I think that's clear, but " 19 the question I'm raising is the f act that it is not 20 apparently possible for the agency to negotiate a facility 21 attachment with a government that is not a member of the 22 agency. ([3 -23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: On what basis do they 24 inspect from? 25 MR. OPLINGER: Well, because there is an existing i I !I lj'
l 31 I ~ l h agreement, a trilateral agreement between the three =b ~3 2 i' parties. That is in existence now and they can operate i 3 l under it, apparently, but we are not aware that there are 4 any existing facility attachments or that they plan to i 5 negotiate any. f 6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I must say that it is 7 . not clear to me that dae-agency takes its inspection in 8 Taiwan as seriously as it does in other places. They are 9 paid on sort of a'by hour or per hour basis, and we have 10 got to have some confirmation that in fact they do regar'd 11 it to be on the same basis as other responsibilities. 12 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Gerry, what does that . a., i.g:;.- .13 business about facility attachment 3 in terms of cameras mean? 14 MR. OPLINGER: Well, I don't think very much, 15 because, remember, this.is an-INFCIRC '66 agreement and 16 therefore, there is no requirement, even if they were 17 negotiating this facility attachment ander a '66 agreement 18 to have seals and cameras, although, in fact, they do, 19 at least -- for example, the Canadian reactor has had '20 camera coverage. 21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, doesn't a facility 22 attachment go into %c.how often inspectors come around? =. ~- gg) 23 MR. OPLINGER: It goes into that and any kind 24 of' details --- i' CO"MISSIONER KENNEDY: What is going to be inspected 25 j l i j l A
[' i iI j 32 ll - p! .t, 1 ' and what the general characteristics are of the systems. ~5) 2 t ll MR. OPLINGER: Right. 3 h COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: So on what basis are they 't '! inspecting? 4 5 ji MR. OPLINGER: k don't know, and we have been 6 trying to get the answer to that question for some time 7 from the Executive Branch ~, and they don't have a clear 8 l answer. We sent over to them on February 16th four i l 9 l questions about safeguards operations that NMSS has asked 10 us to get answers to. We have not received any answer. e 11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Why don't you read the ,. 7.., 12 question? .= :. = = - 13 MR. OPLINGER: Yes, I'll just summarize it. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 'ti 22 l ....5 23 lI 24 ;l;l 25 i i !i U" +
E l-f E h. 33 i. E P 1 Now, if we got clear answers, well, to the first
== 2 .4 of those questions, that would give us a better handle on !i i 3 ! how, in the absence of facility attachments they do decide 4 what they can do, what their inspection schedule would be 5 ll and all of those things. We simply don't know at this 1 6 point. E 7 ; CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: When did we issue the last II 8 lj export license for Taiwan? i ~ MR. SHEN: Do you recall -- we can check that out.. 9 10,. I think it has been about a year. d 11 ! MR. OPLINGER: Asking about facility attachments 12 was not the common practice at that point for us. =EF 13 MR. ROTHSCHILD: The' Commission has almost issued 14 nothing since the NPA went into ef fect. So 'the Commission has 15 gone for-the criteria on that one. 16., MR. OPLINGER: In particular on'this water boiler i 17 reactor, we sort of routinely asked State, what was the ( 13 j status of your facility attachment on that, and we got an 19 answer which said, well, there isn' t one -because tne reactor 20 has not completed construction yet, so there wouldn't.be. 21 Then we got a letter from one of the people in the 22 ROC nuclear program whc said, hurry up with the license i ((.'. 23 because the reactor is sitting there, it is all completed [ 24 and we want our fuel. So we have gone back to State f f 25 ij and.said, please clarify it and we don't have an answer to i II o Fjf d il.
4 i O O le I sir it f: 1 !l that. ~ ~ - ~ "i' 2 COM'4ISSIONER AHEARNE: But you know'the answer. y; 3 MR. OPLINGER: Well, I assume there is no facility f attachment. 4 0 ,2 5 !; COM'4ISSIONER AHEARNE: I thought you had said at 1-6 the beginning of that little discussion that there couldn't s 7
- . be.
~ 8 ! MR. SHEA: State's position was that they couldn',t 9 because it wasn't completed. 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: No. If you define'a ll,' facilit e+ attachment as a negotiated agreement between the j .~ 12 country and IAEA on how IAEA is going to go about doing 13 inspections, then there can't be. ^ 14 MR. OPLINGER: Unless there had been something 15 negotiated before the change in the status of the IAEA. 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: They feel they can inspect 17 someone with whdn they can' t negotiate? Is that the logic? 18 MR. OPLINGER: Apparently so. 19' I have talked to people on the telephone about~this 20 in DOE and -State, and I get somewhat different answers from 21 everybody I talk to. Some people have told me that there 22 have been some kind of arrangements, negotiated or that jjk 23 ' decide questions like you would address in a facility 24 attachment, but they don' t have the status of a real d 25g f cility attachment. Wherher th'at's true or not, I can't li P i! d
i. 35 1 E confirm it or haven't beer,able to. d 2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You ought to try to find 3 out what they are. There is no reason why the Taiwanese 4 shouldn't let us know. g 5 j' MR. OPLINGER: Now, on more general matters, if 6 I could go on, 7 i 8 I don't think we have anything very signifa. cant 3 9 to add to any of that. 10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 'i 1 11 7 i 1 l 12 l . =:. w 1 13 14 MR. OPLINGER: 15 l 1 16 and you will have to decide whether or 17 ';l' not you
- e satisfied with that response, i
I think, before i i i 18 ; we go ahead with licenses. 19 There is one other possible question that may 20 arise on at least two of these, I believe, with respec,t to I -21 l full-scope safeguards, because the reactors case and the 22 i low enriched fuel both involve exports which will go and ~ j) 23 be used after March 1 0',' 1 9 8 0. I personally --- COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Are they part of the NPT? p; MR. OPLINGER: They are part of the NPT, but it is 25, t-P i' 4 N-Ei'r - - = - e ^ - - -, --,w -r .----r + - - - -
a f I l 36 1 s 0 1 N not clear, for example that the agency takes any official ES = 2 cognizance, for example, of this water boiler reactor inside ~ 3 the research institute. There is no document that we can 4 identify under which they, at this point, will apply 'S safeguards to that thing. So how can we say, in approving - f 6 j a license, that all the known Taiwanese facilities are 7 under safeguards. ~ 8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Doesn't the IAEA have an 9 obligation to inspect all parties of v e NPT whether or 10 not they are members of the IAEA? 11 MR. OPLINGER: Well, yes, but that has to be done, I 12 I think, through a safeguards agreement. Either a 153 or 13 66's on every facility. We have no way of knowing that all 14 Taiwanese facilities, at this point, are covered by safeguards 15 agreements, and therefore,- whether or not they qual.i fy under 16 128. '7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: When you say we have no 18 way of knowing, does that mean that as far as we can tell' 19 there is no way of knowing or that we have asked IAEA and 20 they havcn't answered, or that we have asked Taiwan and l 21 they haven' t answered or we haven' t asked, b~ut --- 22 MR. OPLINGER: We haven't asked the question ~, jh 23 'I guess is the answer,'and I think we should. 24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, why don't we ask, 1-25 l a:d why don't we get the IAEA to get cracking on this. t 1 L. O
i 1 i 37 1 5 MR. OPLINGER: The only one that I can. identify =. 2 where there is a real as opposed to a theoretical question j 4
- is this water boiler reactor.
There could be others. 4 / On the other hand, this could be the only one. I simply 5 ( don't know. 6 ii COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, let's at least deal D 7 . with this one. 8 k MR. OPLINGER: Yes. Well, we have asked the 9.j question of State on this one and we don' t yet have an ~ 10 answer. But we had that answer which said, well, it's 1 .t 11 not completed yet, but that's not a real answer. 12 {f i COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What does it mean to say, _3., i
- EF 13 ; let's get the IAEA cracking?
What is it that they are 14!j supposed to do (a) and what can they do (b ) '. t, _ 15 ' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, if there is a l 16llfacilityouttherethatisgoingtobeoperating, they it 17l: ought to be inspecting it. I! 18 C COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The question is, can they? 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: If the can't, then we 20 ought to be doing it. Somebody has got to be covering'that. 21, The. Taiwanese, I presume, are willing to have it inspected. 22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I'm confident of that. (() 23 MR. STOIBER: Are we informed about the legal t 24 case which the Secretariat makes where it is better to ? t 25 ? enter into the facility attachments under its statute? [ il i !i i + ^
s s 38 1 -i 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: If they can't then we have ^ I =E' 2 ' got to employ bilateral safeguards. 3 MR. STOIBER: It is sort of a troublesome legal-4 l issue that I would like to have the Secretariat, at least, .I 5 to respond to if they are asserting that they can't do this. 6 COMMISS10NER KENNEDY: Well, that's what I'm saying. 7 What is it that they can -do and what is it they can't do, 8 before we sort of assert what they ought to do.- ) 9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, certainly we want to 10 find out what the facts are. 11 MR. OPLINGER: It would seem to me that instead -s.. 12 of dealing with these questions piecemeal, as we have done, =E? 13 what we need is a letter to State now, saying, during this 14 period while the legislation is pending, we'are trying to 15 clean up all of these things and we have the following i 16 safeguards questions. 17 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Some of those questions you 18 will find in my letter, to which I have not yet received i 19 a reply. It has only been a month. I was trying to clear 20 them up last month. I'll try to clear them up this 21 afternoon. 22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: c j) 23 24 MR. OPLINGER: Commissioner Bradford had asked the 25 question i, I l
'j 3 t 39 c 9 1 i =-, =i] 2 3 4 E i: '5 6 7 8 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 9 1 0 '; 5 MR. OPLINGER: ii i 11 ti 12 ..s_.. i i 1 3 !! Il 14 ! CO.vdiISSIONER BRADFORD: 15 ! 16 'i, 17 'i 18 ; COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 19 20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: 21,, li 22 i ..Q 23!! 24 t q 2 5 t, D. ' = I 8 i t' l
l i i =. l 40 i ti 4 lI .i 1 II il f) 2 Il .i 3 4 -5 1 6 l l 7 B CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 9 10 11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: 12 =+:r.
E
-13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, so that's interesting. i 14 What else is hiddea on these thing's? 15 MR. OPLINGER: That's it as far as we have been 16 able to identify. 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Why don't you get off and 18 running with communications with the Executive Branch and 19 see if we can't get some of these matters cleaned up. 20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Let me reiterate, that's 21 what I tried to do on February 2nd, and they haven't answered. 22 CEAIRMAN HENDRIE: Let me ask: out of the five [Ij) 23 ' major licenses before'the Commission, either three or five 12 4 of them are over the 120 day limit at this point, aren't 25 they? t
[, e j 41 ?. I t-F T .I i. 1 il MR. SHEA: That's right. l .=._.e -9 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Quite apart from the nationhood [ 3 p problem, why are they in that. condition at that age with ? 4 ! regard to these other questions? l i 5 I COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I don't think you can-j 6 l separate them from the nationhood problem, can you? 7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: 'The vigor with which the j 8 other questions might have been pursued, I guess, has been 9 !! slowed down by the nationhood problem. "I -l f 10 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The vigor with which they { l-r 11 ' have answered a number of the questions that have been t r 12 posed has probably been slowed down by the same situations, j .s,, EE9 ~~ 13 t which I would grant them, of course. 14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, the business of the { 15 facilities attachments and the Taiwanese, in effect, hiring 16 the agency to make safeguards inspections, that has been l 17 in existence-for some time, for some years. 18 MR. OPLINGER: That's right. 19 CHAIMUW HENDRIE: So with regards to new facilities 20 and so on, that's some sort of problem with having an,. 21 agreed upon inspection routine for a new facility. It isn't 22 L solaething that has just turned up since Mr. Carter said I' []) 23 we've got to switch inlo China recognition. 24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: There is a nationhood i 25 dimension-to that problem, that is, whether the facility l l !!I h h lI 4
v ~ i ,? la y. 4 42 1 II
- i.
C h 4 1 jl attachment can'oe put together. 'A d l' 2 .'I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes, but it sounds to me as 3 j though the problem -- such problems may have existed before 4 the nationhood problem came up, wasn' t making any progess, ll and I don' t understand why the damned license applications. 5 6 have aged the way they have without any progress on what l 7 [ I'll call the old problem. 8 h MR. OPLINGER: Well, it wasn't identified as a 9 l fr9blem in some of these cases. j 'I 10 [! COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, these things have i 11 ! aged in a funny way. It seems to me, I remember a Friday 12 afternoon in November when they were almost out the door. 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, that's right. 14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I have forgotten how 15 many signatures there were on --- 16 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Enough. I 17 i COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: They would have gone without -18 this problem being focused on, I guess. ~ 19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. 20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, now we are going to 21 sway into mid-March. 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What happened was that the .[jp 1 23 ' ' President:made his ann'ouncement. I think Peter's point is 24 quite right, that they were ready to go and would have gone --- 'l 25 (l COMMISSIONER BREFORD: l-i N b
.i il! i 43 cf f: i: j; e 1
- .)
2 y 3 11 4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, let's go after them now 5 and see if we can please or generate some action of these 9' 6 - assorted questions. If the Congress moves ahead in a couple 7 of weeks, two-three weeks or something, it would be very 8 ii nice if we could be well underway with this. 9 MR. OPLINGER: Well, we have asked at least some ~ 10 of these questions, weeks ago, and had no response to them; i 11 ' should we consolidate them all into a -- repeat those that 12 we already asked, or --- _.2. k?5 i ^ I 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Do an omnibus package. i 14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I think the most useful 15 thing is to call Lou up.and see if he can focus a little 16 attention on it. 17 I notice that both we and the Department of State i 18 have the problem that we seem to lose cases and when somebody i f 19 rattles our door we say, Oh, yes, gee, look at that, 20 Son of a gun. It may be you have asked enough questipns 1 21 and it may be that all we need to do is get some motion t 22 on the answers. 1 []) 23 COMMISSIONER'GILINSKY: They are probably waiting 24 for a replacement for Dixon. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I don't know. They are short 25 ji-t, e .a r
5 E ~~. Y s ( 44 il tti. 1 " handed over there and they can't work on everything that p 2 ij they ought to be working on. That's quite clear. We ti 1 3
- j have some of the same problems.
I notice we have got a 4 few things now that seemed to have fallen off the table. l They have to decide jt sL ac we do, what's the case that we-5 6 are going to burn the resources on today, and maybe the 7 time is getting close and maybe it would be useful for them 8 h to devote a little of their limited and precious resource I 9 to moving toward some of these answers so that we can move, 10 assuming that the Congress will act in the meantime. 11 Okay, anything else? Now, what I'm trying to 12 search for here'is are there other things that are of _g, - = - ,13 difficulty that we haven't enunciated. Does anybody know: 14 of any thorns laying around that we ought to identify. 15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Is your correspondence 16 with Lou at an end now. It seems as though you had asked 17 rather more of a question than he had answered the last time 18 I had --- 19 COMMISSIONER A"EARNE: I guess I relayed that --- 20 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: This is in respect to the [ 21 book? .22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Yes. ~ j)) 23 COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE: Yes, this is in respect to -24 the book, 25 i: l. O l!
6 r n e p l e 45 r i-ll 1 it ~ ~ ~. i 2 P i 3 !j l 4 5 i! f 6 ' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 7 i !i ~ 8 'l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So I was satisfied with I 9 respect to the - 'as far as it addressed the questions I I; o 10!! had, but I still fell that they have an obligation, as a 11 'l representative. 12 29,
== == 13 l 14 15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: They actually said that 16 too? There were several statements, I noticed they hadn't 17 addressed and I don't remember that one, i le COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 20 21 e 22 1 I _Z.) 23 ~ i 24 4 2 5 !, ll u Il
.g i p e ii 46 1 0 I! Sc l fl' 1 i -.O 2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: j! 3 t E 81 4 h. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: i 5 6 t l': 7 I ii 8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: l l 9 h l i i . 10 l' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: i 11 I 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: ..c ' :.::El 13 i 1 14 15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 16 17 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 18 19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: u 20 21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: 22 i, i i, ~ 'I .._j 23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: That would be a help. l l' 24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: But the outcome of this Il 25 conversation is that -- with regard to the applications before lit
W f e-n i ~ li
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.a r il I i; Li 1 j us. There is a more general problem, perhaps, but this l- 'f. is referring to these applications. ll 2 l 3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: l 4 i 5 il .!l i 6 ll COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 7 ] 8 [ 9 'l l 10 I 11 12 nr. i 13 14 15 16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 13 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: i 20 i 21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 22 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: l. ~i m 2.1 23 24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: 'l ll 25!! l-U 6 1, 9
I l-I, 48 1 l-l 1 1l; CO!OiISSIONER KENNEDY: I tend not to try find the m.a 4
==n> 2 I lowest guy on the totem pole, but the responsible guys. ~ CO!O1ISSIONER AHEARNE: But the State Department-4 answer,- 5 6 7 COm1ISSIONER BRADFORD: 8 9 10 11 12 A -.:s, 2? .i 13 CO!OiISSIONER AHEARNE: 14 r 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 H 2.....D. 23 24 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Other items that are going to be !I
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l 0 / 49 l [ e. O I t- +: i e 1 - thorns under this --- j' ?. =- 2 CO01ISSIONER BRADFORD: -3 ii 4 'i 'S 'ij l-6 COM311SSIONER AHEARN.E: t' l 7 i ~ 8 !. I 1 p! CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I don't hear any other citatio.ns l 9 ~ 'i 0- , being nade and I'll assume that we have heard about the'probles 10 i 11 ' Let's see if we can make some progress on these. 12 Thank you very much. g .g, 25 13 By the way, let's vote to withhold this tape and 14 transcript. l 15 (A chorus of " ayes".) 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So ordered. I 17 (Whereupon, the meeting in the above-entitled matteri i 18-was concluded at 3:55 p.ta. ) 19 20 l i 21 22 J. 5... 23 24 il 25 d h n ![ .}}