ML19310A164
| ML19310A164 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 05/15/1980 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19310A165 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-80-635, REF-10CFR9.7 SECY-80-245, NUDOCS 8006060215 | |
| Download: ML19310A164 (35) | |
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
PUBLIC MEETING 4
WITHOLDING OF NRC SPENT FUEL ROUTE INFORMATION 5
FROM PUBLIC DISCLOSURE 6
3 7
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 8
Room 550 East West Towers Building 9
4350 East-West Highway Bethesda, Maryland Thursday, May 15, 1980 1
11 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 3:50 p.m.
BEFORE:
13 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Chairman'of the Commission 14 JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Commissioner PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner 16 ALSO PRESENT:
17 H. SHAPAR 18 B. BURNET
- W. DIRCKS 19 L. J. EVANS, JR.
JOHN DAVIS 20 V. STELLO R. B. MINOGUE 21 M. MALSCH NINA SERAFINO 22 McGraw-Hill Publications Co.
Washington, D.C.
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1 PR0CEEDINGS 2
(3:35 p.m. )
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Everyone now having been safely 4
transported here, we will --
5 MR. DIRCKS:
The benefits of consolidation.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And at some later stage we will 7
discuss where.
8 This is a long-expected report.
I am glad to see it 9
wasn't long.
The issue, I guess, is rather straightforward.
10 So Bill, why don't you proceed, in whichever hat,you prefer to 11 be wearing at the moment.
12 MR. DIRCKS: I told you it was a straightforward issue 13 e
, when we talked about the delay in getting the paper down.
I 14 guess the delays were encountered in making sure the paper was 15 as straightforward as the issue.
It deals with the 16 recommendations in SECY-80-245 I'7 I wouldn't say very much except I have been involved 18 in the issue since I left NMSS and I have tracked it 19 very closely since I left NMSS on an acti basis, as Bob a4 Mble.) -- this Bu b 20 probably can testify, and John and M --
au.um 21 paper occasionally and gave back more comments on it.
22 I will get off the line just as soon as I mention 23 what we are talking about here, the recommendation is to 24 release the interstate portion of spent fuel shipments on a 25 generic basis.
'de would, say, on an annualized basis provide ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, I
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1 all the interstate portions of the routes that spent fuel may 2
travel.
3 The rationale in my eyes is that we have in the 4
various steps gone along the path where we have indicated 5
interstates are the preferred route on which to move spent t
6 fuel.
My view is once we have said that, it is very difficult 7
to say that those routes won't be used.
So I find it very 8
difficult to try to withhold that information from the public.
9 Now, I might have said too much along those lines so 10 I will not proceed any further because I may be jeopardizing 11 what John and Bob may want to pick up.
12 Bob, did you want to introduce that subject?
13 MR. BURNETT:
Yes, I will kick off the subject here.
(
14 First, as you know, this has been a somewhat controversial 15 issue.
Even within the staff, in the papers before you, I&E 16 and SD have slightly different opinions on the release of this i 17 data.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I would say it is more than 19 slightly different opinion.
You say yes, they say no.
20 MR. BURNETT:
The controversy is widespread, Mr.
21 Commissioner.
During the comment period of the first rule 22 that was put out, the public demonstrated essentially the same 23 split: those that felt it should not be released at all, l
24 others saying it is public information and the public has a 25 right to know, that it instills confidence in the government, At.DERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC, m6;W5Ti~iLD7tLi uovee 4
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in our security practices.
2 Then even on the Hill, I have here with me the 3
results of two Hill actions in a conference that is going on 4
on our authorization bill. We have two documents even within S
that body. One suggests the release of the entire route 6
itself, not the particular timing of the' shipment, but the i
7 quantities of the shipments and the route.
8 But then the bill that the same conference is 9
drafting is somewhat different than the conference report, 10 which they haven't resolved yet. And in the bill itself,.they i
11 are telling us to release it to the governor of the states.
i 12 However, we can apply or may apply, if we deem necessary, a 13 safeguard provision to that that it would be maintained within 1<4 the state system.
15 So the controversy if far-ranging.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Although is it correct, Bob, that 17 what the bill is. speaking to, notifying the governor, is not 18 just the route; it is the shipment and the time of shipments.
19 MR. BURNETT Oh, yes. Now, just along that line, be 20 advised that even now we make available to the states that 21 desire the information the specifics of the route but have 22 asked them to safeguard it, and t,o date they have done that.
23 So the bill as drafted is actually what is being done now.
24 The other one, which is the report, is a little bit 1
25 broader than that and would require total release.
And l
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actually, if this one were passed, this meeting here would be 2
rather superfluous.
3 I think the gut issue here for us to consider is what 4
should tTRC do.
I think we are required to be as open as 5
possible.
Therefore, when the Commission asked us ;o 6
reconsider this general policy of ours, not re?.easlag 7
anything, I think my office came from that direction: what significan'ly decrease the 8
could we release that would not c
9 security of the shipment and may increase the public's 10 available knowledge on the subject.
That'is the way my 11 division came from.
12 I think that it is very easy to rely back on a more 13 conservative and more standard security direction. And having 14 come from a very strict security environment, that is to 15 release anything, just don't release anything at all.
But 16 I don't think this environment calls for that type of 17 approach.
18 So what this paper has tried to outline is as much as 19 possible that can be released and not endanger the 20 shipment significantly.
21 Now, during the process of this effort, of course, we 22 gathered a lot of comments. Bob is going to take over from 23 here.
But just to ensure that we are all talking about the 24 same subject, I have here a map of the United States which I 25 am going to show to your direction because as it is currently ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC, M
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1 drawn, it shows 2790 data.
2 It would be the type of data that would be released o3h5biannualbasis.
3 It shows the approved routes that have now 4
gone through the NRC, the interstate portions that would be 5
released.
I want to call your attention to the fact that with 6
the modification that happened about a month ago, which 7
the preferred routes would be interstate, some of these 8
licensees would avail themselves of that new authority 9
and probably stay on the interstates for a greater portion.
10 But this is typical of what would be released now.
I 11 call your attention to the fact that the'beginning and ending, 12 which is always on a secondary system, are absent in this type 13 of release.
14 MR. EVANS:
As Bob mentioned, NMSS, at least, 15 approached the problem from the point of view of NRC, being an 16 open agency, is supposed to be serving the public and that 17 therefore the burden of proof on whether or not to release or 18 whether to withhold this information needs te be on NRC.
19 We need to carry forward the burden of proof and say 20 that there would be a significant decrease in the security if -
21 we withheld this material from the general public.
Now, that 22 results in the decision criteria that you see in the paper and 23 on side 3 of of your handouts here.
24 What we have said is that if we do not show that 25 there is a significant decrease in shipment security, then we A
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would go forward with releasing this informatio'n to the 2
public.
3 Now, I would like to caveat the remaining slides, 4
before we move on, with one thought.
rs Bob mentioned, this 5
has been a highly controversial subject along the staff. I 6
think part of the reason is because it is a highly subjective, 7
judgmental area.
8 Therefore, on thsse slides what I have attempted to 9
do is establish the framework that sets out the most important 10 elements that a policymaker should consider when making the 11 decision.
I think the decision, in the final analysis, ends 12 up being a subjective one in terms of how much weight you put 13 on ear 5'of these elements.
As we say in the law profession, 1-4 it is an area that reasonable men can certainly differ on, all 15 be looking at thp same facts and still come to a different 16 conclusion.
17 Having said that, I would like to turn to the 18 background slide, or slide number 4.
Basically what started 19 us down the path to looking at this issue on a generic basis 20 was a specific case, namely,the Duke Power case.
Now, ELD has -
21 asked that I not get into too many details of that case 22 because it is still under active consideraticn.
23 In trying to give an overview of it, basically what 24 happened was there was an amendment and a request to amend the 25 license permit to ship spent fuel from Oconea to McGuire, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, l
300 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2",46
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about 160 miles.
The important thing was this request was 2
made in March of 1978.
Now,-that is before we had decided 3
that there we' any consequences to the sabotage of spent 4
fuel, and therefore there were no protection requirements.
5 After we issued the regulation, we were asked to 6
certify that the information that had already been discussed 7
in the public domain, that those were still the routes for 8
these shipments.
At that point the staff said no, given the 9
precedent of not releasing this kind of information for 10 Category I shipments, we better not do it for spent fuel.
11 The Commission considered that and came to a 12 conclusion that since the material and the routes were already 13 in the public domain, in this particular case they would like 14 to go ahead and release the information, but they said that it 15 did not apply generically, and that resulted in us putting 16 together this paper and this briefing.
17 Now, what I would like to say is that in addition to 18 the Commission saying that, we received a number of comments 19 that cut both ways based on the interim rule being published 20 and our asking for comments there. We had a number of comments -
21 that said you should not release this information because it 22 is a bad security practice. We had even more comments saying 23 you must release this information because the public has a 24 right to know.
25 So, given that sort of overview background, if we get h
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC,
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into the specific background of the p"oblem we are dealing 2
with, it really results in lo'oking at what the current 3
practice is of the staff.
4 Certain types of information are released, and we 5
need to be clear about what is released and what is not. As I 6
rhow on slide 5, here, we do release all of the rationale for 7
the protection requirements and whether you should have 8
protection requirements.
That is done in the statements of 9
considerations to the regulations.
10 Obviously, we release the rule requirements 11 themselves. But more importantly, we release the criteria that 12 the sta#f uses for deciding whether or not to approve a 13 specific licensee route.
We also release what alternative 14 approaches of protection would be satisfactory and approved by 15 the staff, and we do both of those things in guidance 16 documents.
17 In addition, we do' release to the state officials and 18 to LLEA officials the specific information, one part of which 19 is before us today, namely, the first double-dashed line under 20 specific information here.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Part of that.
22 MR. EVANS:
Yes, that is right.
And, in fact, part 23 of it as we get down to the actual recommendation.
2' But under consideration is the release of all routes 25 or the withholding of all route,s.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, IffC,
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I don't know, maybe I need not go into all the other 2
information.
If you want to,' we can go through the specifics.
3 CHAIRMAN AREARNE: We have gone through.
4 MR. EVANS:
Then what do the potential benefits from 5
disclosing boil down to?
I think Bob has probably already 6
stated it, but just one last time, I think it boi's down to 7
are we going to be responsive to the public interest and are 8
we going to try to create an atmosphere of trust regarding the 9
shipments?
10 Can we gain from public input into the routes and 11 maybe even come up with better routes if they decide to 12 criticize what we have approved and come up with things we may 13 not have found in our route surveys?
Hopefully that will not 14 happen, but it could happen.
15 It think those are the three major benefits that we 16 can get out of the disclosure.
17 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
When you say hopefully you hope 18 that it won't happen, do you mean that hopefully you thought 19 of all the --
20 MR. EVANS:
I hope that the route surveys will have 21 come up with all of the problems with routes.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes. I am sure that is what you ZI meant. It would just be nice for the record to show that.
24 MR. EVANS:
All right.
25 In terms of the potential harm, there really are (3:50 p.m. - Commissioner Bradford arrives.)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, s
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three.
The first is if you do not release this information, 2
it is essential for a potantial saboteur to get it.
Now, in 3
getting that it costs him two things.
One, he has to have 4
some resources in order to do that, either time or extra 5
manpower. And two, when he is going to get that information, 6
he risks detection.
7 Now, the real issue here is how do you judge how 8
likely he is to be detected during that and how significant 9
those resources are and how hard they are for him to get?
10 NMSS-is saying that it is not significant enough of a decrease 11 in security protection, in our opinion, and therefore we 12 should go ahead and release.
13 A final point that I woulh like to make here is that 1-4 there are, as a matter of public record, a number of instances 15 where what we call a latent saboteur has been incited to do 16 things as a result of publicity.
I don't think there is any i
17 doubt that spent fuel shipments are getting a lot of 18 publicity.
19 One could argue that cases like the 1978 coal miners' ;
20 strike where publicity was given to a non-union shipment of 21 coal via the Ohio River, where the miners, after seeing that Z1 publicity, sunk the barge that the coal was shipped on, they 23 could say that there is a latent saboteur.
It may not have 24 ever occurred if there hadn't been publicity.
25 Again, it is a matter of subjective judgment.
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, GLnm3 Tram
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We haven't had much to do with 2
coal miners ' strikes.
3 MR. EVANS:
That is true. Well, there are others that 4
we could cite. My point is only that some have argued that 5
that is something that should be considered, and it is a 6
matter to the policy deciders to decide how much weight to 7
give it.
8 What are our alternatives?
First of all, we can 9
continue the current practice, and that is don't release it to 10 the general public, only release it to the state officials and l 11 the LLEAs and ask them to protect it. ' That is our current 12 practice, and I think in terms of the state police and LLEAs 13 we have been successful. It gives us our highest level of 14 protection for the public health and safety, but it is by far 15 the least responsive to the public desire to know.
16 The second alternative is the other extreme, which is i 17 to publish all of the approved routes, and in this case we are 18 proposing to do it in a NUREG Report if went to all the 19 routes.
This, in effect, certifies for the public what routes 20 the spent fuel shipments will be shipped on.
While it gives 21 up the most security, it is most responsive to the public Z2 desire to know.
9 23 Then, of course, there is the position that NMSS is 24 recommending on the last line, which is that we protect that 25 part of the route that is most sensitive from a security ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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1 viewpoint, and that the shipments along non-interstate 2
portions stop at lights, they go around curves where they can, 3
go very slowly. There is often cover where an ambush is more 4
likely to succeed.
5 Therefore, it was our feeling that prudence would 6
dictate a middle course where we would protect the shipments 7
during the point they are most vulnerable but yet we would be 8
responsive to the public in releasing the information, which 9
is the majority of the shipment route.
10 Bob showed you a map of presently approved routes 11 under the existing requirements. Now, once the new 12 requirements go into effect, our data shows that the percent 13 of routes.will go to 79 percent of the routes being on.
14 interstate highways.
So you will have less, just over a 15 fifth of the routes that wouldn't be on highways, a relatively 16 small percent.
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You said you had a lot of public 18 comment on both sides.
Of that segment that were concerned 19 with having the information released, is there a sense that 20 they were concerned about having that 79 percent released on 21 interstate highways, or were they more concerned with the 22 percent in their local commur.f ries?
23 MR. EVANS: I think they were concerned about both.
24 They want to know if the shipments are going near or throug 25 their communities. Both interstates and secondary roads go ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC,
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through communities, so I think you could safely say it is 2
both.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
John, I imagine that this has 4
been an issue that has had a lot of concern in NMSS.
Within 5
NMSS, are there some people, some arguments against disclosing 6
any of it?
7 MR. DAVIS:
Yes, I think there are some people who 8
would prefer not to.
I believe, though, the turning point in 9
NMSS as a staff position was when we looked at the 10 philosophically concepts of what the agency's role is in 11 public information: that if we look upon it as a basis of 12 there should be good cause for release -- in other words, we 13 keep everything back unless there is good cause to release --
14 you can build a good argument not to release it; but when you 15 look at it from the other direction, we are a regulatory 16 agency, we recognize that public scrutiny serves the agency l'7 and the public; for the public to scrutinize us they must have 18 information, and then it must be our burden to say why we do 19 not release information.
20 I think when that point permeated the staff, that 21 there was a different viewpoint on it.
22 MR. BURNETT: If I could second that,. too, within the C
23 division in the early periods, there was a lot of discussion 24 on both sides. But as the paper progressed and as the logic 25 progressed, I would say it is strongly supported in NMSS.
ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC, f~0RMiisTE flm LTMhTf3VMTus11HEL rmcmTYdiR517LfoL&L N
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Vic, you and Bob Minogue 2
disagreed.
I have read both of your disagreements. I wonder 3
if you would care to say anything more than your paper.
4 MR. STELLO:
I guess what I have heard thus far 5
suggests that if you release the information, there would be 6
harm but it would not be significant.
I tried to look at the 7
other side and look at what is the benefit to be gained. I 8
really don't see the benefit there.
I think we have to be 9
able to stand up and say that the health and safety of the 10 public is best protected how?
11 I think it is best protected by holding back 12 important safeguard information. I think where the shipments 13 are is important and that ought not to be made public.
I.
1-4 think it is just that simple.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Bob?
16 MR. MINOGUE:
Let me make a few general comments. I 17 think you have just heard a very presentation of the 18 issues.
The version of the paper on which I dissented was 19 less moderate than this.
The thing I am really concerned 20 about would be the publication of detailed route maps.
To me 21 the vulnerability, if you take as a given this is a material r
that requires safeguarding, that there is a'real public hazard 23 involved in a sabotage attack, you make yourself extremely 24 vulnerable if you issue detailed route maps.
25 Now, by narrowing it to interstates, efforts have ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC,
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been made to take that into account. But the problem is the 2
end points are known and the interstate routes are known. It 3
is not that hard to deduce likely routes between the reactor 4
plants, for example, and the interstates.
5 I think in balance I would still come down on this.
6 It is very much a judgment call and very subjective. It seems 7
to me the advantage of not making this information available 8
to make the job of the saboteur even easier outweighs the 9
advantage, which is also very real, of informing the public.
10 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I Buess I am unconvinced of 11 the value to the public of the alternative recommended because 12 I think you are not going to find that that satisfies people.
13 They are going to want to know all the routes.
They are going 14 to want to know all of the routes that Duke Power can use to 15 move fuel from Plant A to wherever, and the same for every 1
16 site that ships spent fuel.
17 Publishing the map showing portions of 18 interstates that have been approved for these shipments I 19 don't think is going to do any more than whet the appetite of 20 people who want to know all about this and want to see it all 21 laid out fully.
22 So I don't think you are going to get nearly the 23 number of marks in the good book that one might hope from what 24 has clearly been a very careful and in some ways agonizing 25 appraisal of how far you could go before you began to do, in i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 300 7th STREET. S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346 I
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your opinion, serious damage to the security aspect 2
I think it is also quite true that if you look at the 3
interstate map and you know where the plant is sited that you 4
are interested in, here~is the plant and here comes an 5
interstate, and you know that that fuel has got to go thataway 6
eventually, and you say, now, how can I get from the plant 7
here, and you look at your oil company road map, and it ain't 8
that hard.
9 So in terms of any real denial of secondary route
'10 information by alternative 3, I think it is not that good.
I 11 think I come down for staying where we are on this routing 12 information.
13 You remember a while ago until this sabotage of spent 14 fuel casks business came in in Sandia, our view was that the 15 peril, such as it was, in spent fuel shipment had to do with 16 accidents.
The truck went off the road, it caught hit at a 17 rairoad crossing, it ran into a fuel-carrying truck. There was 18 a fire.
It fell off a bridge into a river or what have you.
19 We required the spent fuel shipping casks to be of 20 really extraordinary invulnerability to all of the sorts of 21 accident risks.
We have great, ornate testing programs.
We 22 drop them on spikes and boil them in fires and dump them in 23 the river and run them into concrete walls.
The testing that 24 has gone on over the years indicates, in fact, that the 25 ability of the approved casks to protect spent fuel accidents l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 300 7th STREET. S.W. REPORTERO OYlLDING WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 J202) 554-2346 7
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is extremely good.
2 From an accident standpoint we have concluded long 3
since that the risk to the public of radiological effects from 4
shipping spent fuel is well nigh trivial.
5 The one place that we have been bothered is somebody 6
came along and said, well, if we got a bunch of really sharp 7
explosives people together and they got their hands on a lot 8
of shaped charge sort of stuff and you gave them a reasonable 9
time to implant charges on a cask, they conceivably could blow 10 a cask open in a way which would result in dispersal of 11 material in a significant way.
12 I think I have always judged myself that that 1
13 scenario marches way out at the end of the very long line of 14 "what if's" and is out in that range of events which I 15 personally regard as not so important.
Y 16 Nevertheless, we have taken it under advisemend and 17 devised a whole set of security requirements requiring route 18 examinations and security protection for this material and so 19 on.
20 I think having gone down that track, and until such 21 time as we decide, no, sabotage isn't something that we are 22 going to protect against, we just let all the route, time, QM 3
place and everything else lie open on the record, it seems to 24 me if you are going to have a security program, have a 25 security pro 5 ram.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 300 7th STREETg S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 55_4 2346
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And that seems to me that you' dont then want to step 2
forward and offer half of your generic route information, 3
because I think you then provide an excellent handle for 4
people to pry the rest of the route information out of you.
5 Then it is not much of a step to, well, give us three days 6
notice before shipment goes.
Pretty soon we will be asked to 7
put the whole thing out on the table, and I don't think that 8
is a reasonable proposition.
9 So I would stay where we are.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Peter.
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Where does where we are bring 12 you out in situations -- well, first of all, there was the 13 Duke Oconee-McGuire question.
Did we decide that?
14 MR. EVANS:
Yes, sir.
15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: And we decided that in favor 16 of staying where you are now?
17 MR. EVANS:
No, sir. The decision on --
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That was a disclosure.
19 MR. EVANS: The decision on that was disclosure based 20 on the fact the information was already public because it had -
21 gone public prior to our requirements. Explicitly in your 22 decision you said that this does not apply generically, it 23 applies to this one case given a special set of circumstances.
24 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Peter, there is another 25 element of this that I didn't comment on that I would like to ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 300 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDINh, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
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because I think it may intersect with something that you have 2
in mind.
I would regard this kind of route information as the 3
same sort of thing as a plant security plan and some other 4
material of that kind.
5 That is, in a hearing if there is a legitimate 6
contention before the hearing that has to do with routing 7
of spent fuel, then the Board gets suitable protective 8
agreements with parties legitimately in the proposition, and 9
just as we do with classified material, for pity's sake, in 10 the security plants, we go ahead and deal with it on a closed 11 session basis.
12 So I don't see a not making generally public this 13 generic route information as being the same as a proposition 14 that that now takes it out of all contentions.
If the stuff 15 hadn't been made public in Duke, I would have thought if the 16 Duke intervenors were willing to execute the customary kinds 17 of protective agreements, then that closed the hearing and go 18 to it.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That seems reasonable.
If at 20 the moment, a town manager living somewhere where he thinks he -
21 may be on the route of a spent fuel shipment asks whether he l
22 is or not --
23 MR. BURNETT:
That happens to me about once a week.
24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What happens?
25 MR. BURNETT:
I deny the information.
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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: You tell him you can't tell 2
him whether his town is on the route or not.
3 MR. BURNETT: That's correct.
I tell him that I have 4
been in communications with the state. We have had calls from P
5 many, many communities in New York on the Chalk River route.
6 Many people that aren't on the route but don't know that they 7
are or aren't are calling. Town councilmen.
8 I tell them we have been in communications with the 9
state, the state knows the route, and it is the current policy 10 of NRC not to release that information. So far, one of two 11 things have happened. Either they have accepted that or they 12 have immediately passed an embargo.
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, the value of revealing sab-14 all of the routes would be that it would define that some set 15 of local governments would pass cargoes in the first phase.
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:.I am not sure which way gets 17 you more embargoes.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes. And I am not sure which way 19 the argument cuts, either. I don't think we can use -- using 20 John's approach, which I find appealing -- I don't think we 21 can say that one of the reasons for not releasing information 22 is because an embargo might be passed.
23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That's right.
24 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
That is not a safety or safeguards 25 issue.
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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Or, indeed, the other way 2
around, that one of the reasons for releasing it is that there 3
might not be an embargo.
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Do you have anything further?
5 MR. BRADFORD: With regard to the business of being 6
able to litigate it in proceedings, I suppose that the concern 7
there would be that in a lot of cases, the plants have long 8
since been sited.
Is there actually likely to be a proceeding-9 in which the question can be litigated?
Does a tranfer itself' 10- always give rise to a proceeding?
I wouldn't think it would.
11 MR. MALSCH:
It does now because of the way the 12 licenses are written.
They only authorize stores of spent 13 fuel in connection with a particular reactop that is the
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14 subject of the license.
15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I see.
So that to move the 16 fuel out would need a Federal Register notice?
17
. CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It is to move the fuel in that 18 requires that.
19 MR. MALSCH:
Yes, move to a new plant.
In order to 20 be authorized to possess spent fuel in Reactor A from Reactor -
21 B, you need to -- (inaudible).
22 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Suppose in some magical other 23 universe there were, in fact, a spent fuel repository 24 someplace other than the pool of the plant.
That wouldn't 25 require an amendment.
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MR. MALSCH:
I wouldn't think so, because that --
2 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
That was contemplated.
The 3
application was contemplated.
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No, that wouldn't require an 5
amendment, but the other spent fuel facility would require a.
6 license.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
To be sure. But in this 8
magical other world, it Sot one.
9 (General laughter.)
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Oh,- I see.
l 11 (General laughter.)
12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
That, John, is why it is a 13 magical other world.
14 MR. SHAFAR:
But they could litigate it someplace, I 15 think.
j 16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is what I was trying to get 17 at.
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Though they wouldn't 19 necessarily, unless they were really on their toes, receive a 20 question.
That is, if you were talking about a repository out -
21 West and a reactor back East, it would be a pretty alert town 22 manager somewhere in between.
23 MR. SHAPAR:
You would have to be en your tippy-toes.
24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
It is an uncomfortable 25 prospect to have to tell local officials that it really is not ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, E)7th @TRTE @.W. R3ARiETJifRl3&lTskWARTfT61TN,fMLM4 6
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their business whether --
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I don't think Bob tells them it's 3
not their business.
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
No, I understand. I am sure 5
his phraseology by now is the epitome of tact.
6 MR. BURNETT:
Actually, all contacts have been rather 7
diplomatic.
I think all of them have understood our position, 8
but they have all revealed a certain political pressure on 9
their side.
10 MR. DAVIS:
May I make another comment on this?
11 Perhaps part of the problem with the movement of shipped fuel 12 is the public's lack of understandin5 of the actions which the 13 NRC has taken for their protection.
If we were to go to a 14 formal publication such as NMSS has proposed, it would give us 15 an opportunity to carefully draw as a pref ace to that 16 publication exactly what the concerns were and how we reacted 17 to them, and point out very explicitly that our concerns are 18 not from a " accident" but from a deliberate terrorist act.
19 And I do think, from at least reading the newspapers, 20 there is some confusion in the mind of the public as to what 21 the problem is in moving spent fuel.
So it gives us a good 22 opportunity to present the case, is what I am saying.
23 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
But you could also do a NUREG 24 which would not have the specific map, a prototype of which we 25 saw, but which would note that interstate routes are generally ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, E07QRTRTR AWo RLMfMNRIYM212PDCtKefiefR AR A AN
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1 used wherever they are available.
2 MR. DAVIS:
But I suapect the route being marked in 3
the publication is what draws then ~co read the publication. In 4
other words, if they were looking for where is it going, a map 5
saying these are approved routes would cause that publication 6
to have a wider readership among the public than simply a 7
8 MR. SHAPAR:
But there are radioactive spills around 9
the country, yellow cake and other things, and I think --
10 MR. DAVIS:
But not of spent fuels.
l 11 KR. SHAPAR:
I know; but I think it is asking a lot 12 of the public to discriminate between various forms of l
13 radioactive material.
14 MR. DAVIS:
But I am saying we would have an ideal 15 opportunity to give them the information in a form in which 16 they could discriminate.
17 COMMISSIO?!ER BRADFORD:
When you have given the 18 information to a state, is the state free to do what it will 19 with the information?
20 MR. BURNETT: No, sir. We have asked that they 21 safeguard it.
When Albany called us, you know, there was a 22 great deal of public concern, and it was reflected in the call 23 from Albany. So three of us went up and sat down. And once we 24 had the opportunity to talk to them and, as John said, all 25 that we are doing and that we are not against giving the state ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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the information so they can adequately respond to an emergency 2
and suggest to them as to the' limit of distribution for that, 3
they were very amenable.
4 They said that they would write in a letter 5
identifying a point of contact for an interim basis. It was 6
agreed by them and my office to deal with the chief of the 7
state police and that he would distribute the information 8
through a confidential cable system.
It has worked very well 9
up there.
10 And after that meeting, they wrote a letter that 11 indicated a great deal of confidence in the program, in the r
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John, going back to your rationale sh 1 2
as to on what grounds would one keep material from the public, 3
how would you argue the case for the non-interstate routes?
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MR. DAVIS:
To me, the non-interstate routes, because e
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6 opportunity for a problem with the fuel than on an interstate.
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You'll find yourself very hard put to try to safeguard 20 information that's already out in the public sector.
21 l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Well, let's see. Now there's l,
22 f nothing in what you're proposing to disclose that tells anybody 23 '
anything about the timing of shipments.
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24 l MR. BURNETT: No, that's correct.
25l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: So it's hard for me to see i
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what I take it is the I&E&SD point that anyone is much helped --
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shipment, wouldn't you have to know something more than just 4
the routes that were occasionally used?
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You'd have to know about six things, as we see it.
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now put the dynamite under the bridge over Tupper's Creek or 20 whatever and you've got it.
21 MR. DIRCKS: But'they know that anyway. They know 22 that anyway because you've already said interstates are the i
approved route, the preferred routes.
23 24 l MR. BURNETT: That cuts both ways.
If you're going to 25l do that --
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: Actually, just saying interstates 2l in general are the approved routes worried me a lot less than 3
this map, where if I live in Indiana I look and find that there 's 4
a piece of interstate from point A to point B which is approved, e
5 and not the extensions in either direction and I say aha, here's Xn 6
my plant and it's got to come down the state road 50 in order f7 to get to that point on the interstate and then it's got to 8
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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I had asked how, in the x5 i
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estimate of those who opposed this plan, anyone would be much 21 j aided simply by knowing the interstate portions of the routes, 22 i and I must say Joe showed considerable imagination but I wonder 23 '
if there were other explanations. I'm glad he's on our side.
24 l:
(Laughter.)
l 25 MR. MINOGUE: That's exactly the point. The interstates I
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1 only have so many exit points.
You can determine what some 2
local route is. These shipments are easily recognized. The 3
vehicles are easily recognized, and if you have the advantage 4
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MR. MINOGUE: You know, this is a very difficult 16 judgment call. The more you give, the easier you make it.
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s COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: But it's already been told.
20 MR. MINOGUE: Yes, exactly.
Telling them a little more 21 i
and telling them where you're going to get off the interstate, i
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that's an additional piece of information. And you know, you 23
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even worse, tell them the dates and times and so on.
2l So you've got: a whole spectrum here, and I don' t think l
3 anybody's arguing that what's pfoposed here goes to the extreme 4
of making the terrorist's job easy for him, but it certainly e
5 makes it easier than withholding the information from him.
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6 CHAIR!iAN AHEARNE: Vic?
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Sin. STELLO: Well, I guess I was starting to be 8
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5 18 harmful so that the public health and safety is jeopardized. I I
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21 between deciding whether you want to protect the health and 22 safety of the public or telling the public everything that goes 23 '
on in this agency.
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ought to be protected. And we ought to do a lot more than we're 2
doing.
And I'm opposed to any further release of safeguards-3 type information. I don't think it ought to be done.
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: AS I understood it -- go ahead.
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MS. SERAFINO:
I'd like to ask a question. I understand a
3 6
that those from the Sierra Club have indicated that there Ik7 were observers watching the -Chalk. River plant and -they knew A
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what routes the fuel comes out of the Chalk River plant.
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15 widely organized be able to collect the information themselves?
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16 MR. BURNETT: Who am I addressing?
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17 MS. SERAFINO: I'm Nina Serafino from Nuclear Fuels.
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: I guess I thought you were with 5
19 the staff.
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20 (Laughter. )
21 MR. BURNETT: 'First thing is that she is right that 22 l we have been told observances of the Chalk River. I would like i
23 I to tell the Commission that those observances have come in 24 wrong. For some reason or another which I can't identify, the 25; routes postulated by these observers have been incorrect, of the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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In both attempts they sat on the wrong routes.
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20 l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: We have a paper which five of us 21 have to vote on. Any other specific questions of the staff?
22 f COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: No.
I 23 '
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: No.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Thank you.
Let 's close this 25 ;
meeting, take a five-minute break, and then there will be a i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 closed agenda, closed session.
2 (Whereupon, at 4:25 p.m.,
the meeting recessed, to 3
resume in closed session.)
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This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of: Withholding of NRC Spent Fuel Route Ynformation From Public Disclosure Date of Proceeding:
May 15, 1980 Docket Number:
Place of Proceeding:
Bethesda, Maryland were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Commission.
Shirley Wolf Official Reporter (Typed)
EIw M.
Official Reporter (Signature) 1
_