ML19308C580
| ML19308C580 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 10/11/1979 |
| From: | Baunack W, Rivenbark G NRC - NRC THREE MILE ISLAND TASK FORCE, NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION I) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 8001280610 | |
| Download: ML19308C580 (68) | |
Text
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O NUCLE AR REGULATORY COMMISSION l
O IN THE MATTER OF:
THREE MILE ISLAND SPECIAL INQUIRY DEPOSITIONS DEPOSITION OF WALTER H.
BAUNACK O
Place - King of Prussia, Penna.
Date -
Thursday, October 11, 1979 Pages 1 - 67 t
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l A *D'A nO,'n 3'M D**D
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(202)347 3700 1
ACE -FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.
OfficxslReporters 444 North Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 20001 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE DAILY8 0 012 8 0d/O 7
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- UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 3
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.BEFORE:
'i
~4 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ' ':-
THREE MILE ISLAND u
5 SPECIAL INQUIRY C?.0UP.
6 J-
X
' Oral ' Deposition of WALTER H, BAUNACK
,7 a
8 APPEARANCES:
9 GEORGE W.-RIVENBARK 10-NRC - Special Inquiry Group for Three Mile' Island.
11 PETER SICILIA, JR.
.NRC - Specla1 Inquicy Group for Three Mile Island.
12 113 '
-!(
14 15 TAKEN AT:
16-631 Park Avenue Thursda y, King of Prussia, Pa.
October 11, 1979, 17-at~ 9 :30 a.m.
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WITNESS : '.
EXAMINED BY:
PAGE NUMBER o,
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Walter H.. Baunack
. Mr. Rivenbark 3-i4 Mr. Sicilia 25 L
' I Mr. Rivenbark 33, 51
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Mr. Sicilia 48, 64
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9 Marked
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. 10 Baunack A-5160' - ho-page Letter dated 3-Oc tober. 4, 1979.
Baunack B-5161 - ho-page' document dated
.5 12 July 22,.1979.
l 13 Baunack C-5162 - Handwritten notes.
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2 I WALTER 11. BAUNACK, sworn l
3 MR. RIVENBARK:
This is a depos ition being (conducted by the U.S. Nuclea r Regula tory Commis sion's 4
p s
i 5 i; Specia l Inquiry Group on Ihree Mile Is la nd.
It is the c
6 deposition of Mr. Walter 11. Baunack of Region 1 of the NRC 7
at King of Prussia, Pennsylvania on October 11, 1979.
4 8 ll Present in a dd it io n t o Mr. Baunaek are Perer I!
M 9 1 Sicilia a nd George Rivenba rk of the Specia l Inquiry Group.
0 10 ;i BY MR. RIVENBARK:
11 1 Q
Mr. Baunack, you received a two -pa ge let ter da ted 12 q October 4,1979 from Mr. Rogovi.n which described the nature 13 j of our interview and the possibility of its becoming public,
0 1
l a li is that right ?
1 15J A
Yes.
a 4
16?
MR. RIVENBARK:
Would you ma rk this a s Ba una ck I
li 17 1 Exhibit A.
l 18 j]
(khereupon, the two-page letter da ted October 4, 19 j 1979, wa s ma rked a s Baunack Exhibit A-5160. )
k 20 :l BY MR. RIVENBARK:
0 1
21h Q
Mr. Baunack, is this item marked Exhibit A a
- l 22 ;! copy of the October 4, 1979 letter from Mr. Rogovin to you?
L/
23 j A
Ye s, it is.
1
)k 24
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llave you read it and do you understand it ?
25l A
Yes, I have reed it.
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1, MR. RIVENBARK:
I would note that Mr. Ba unack i
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2.! - has informed us that we have his middle initial noted v
i 3f incorrectly on the letter.
It should be 11 instead of F.
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. C' l 4
Mr. Baunack, you should be awa re that the i
5 testimony you give has the same force and effect as if 6
you were testifying in a court of law.
My questions and l
7l your rec;ponses -are being taken down and they will later be J
8 t ra ns c ribed.
You will be;given the opportunity to look at 9
that transcript and make changes as you deem necessary.
L 10 However, to the extent that your subsequent
- i 11 0 changes are significant, those changes may be viewed as l
I 12 [ affecting your credibility so please be as complete and y
13 h accurate as you can in responding to my. questions.
aU f
14 !
If at a ny point during the deposition you don't 15 understand a question, please feel free to stop and indicate 16 so and we will make the clarification at that time.
17 Let me a sk you to follow two ba sic ground rules il 18 in replying to my questions.
One ' is ' tha t 'you permit me 1
19 to finish my questions' before ~you give~your response even J
20 ] if you know what the question is ~ going.to' b'e because the 21 ;
reporter cannot take down both of us speaking at the same
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22 li time.
11 l
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- The second is that -you respond audibly.
Motions J
24 [ ; such as nodding your head cannot be taken down by the
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25l reporter. '
I MONTM %Y f *aGG9 A PW C St ee viC 4.,l e t s 01. 0 W1 L 4D A D. WYO*461 SING FA 194f0
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1 i BY MR. RIVENBARK:
(-j 2i Q
bk. Ba una ck, I see that you have brought with you 3 I a copy of your resume.
This consists of two pages.
The
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first page of which is a summary page headed with your name, l
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5 ] W'a lte r 11. Ba una ck.
The second is four experience record il 6 'l as compiled on the Nuclea r Regulatory Commission form 702 7
da ted 7 /22 /76.
8 yl l
MR. RIVENBARK:
I will ask the court reporter to i
9 )lma rk this a s Baunack Exhibit B.
i 100 (Whereupon, the two-page document dated 7 /22 /79 0 wa s ma rked a s Baunack Exhibit B-5161.)
11 il e
12 !! BY FR. RIVENBARK:
0 0
13 ]
Q Mr. Baunack, does this resume marked Exhibit B a
0 accurately summarize your educational and employment back-14 L
15 h ground?
16 y A
It does.
I' s
17 ;!
Q Mr. Ba una ck, I understand that you were in the 4
18 h second group to go to the site on. Wednesday, April 28, l
19 ] 1979, is tha t correct ?
t 20J A
The second group consisted of Smitty.and I.
N 21j' Q
Were you given any instructions by;anyone before 22j you left headquarters to go to the site?
23 A
I didn't. leave headqua rters to go to the site, s.
1 24 I left Region 1.
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25 Q
The Region 1 headquarters office ?
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A Yes.
-2l Q
Were you given any instructions before you left t
1 3r the Region 1 office?
3
.t 9 A
No, no real specific instructions except to find
,J y
5 ] out what the problem was, n
6 Q
Who told you to go to the site on Wednesday?
t d
f 7q A
lia rry Kister, l
d 8 !!
Q Spell that.
9 j A
K-t-s-t-e-r.
ll 10$
Q So you arrived together with Ray Smith at Unit 1 ll 11 lj not long af ter 11:00 a.m.
on Wednesday?
3 12 !!
A Yes.
Approximately 11:00 a.m.
That is as near 0 as I ca n tell.
We went directly to the Unit I control room, 13 e
la il Q
When you got to the Unit 1 control room, wha t e
15 did you do ?
i i
16]l A
I met Chick Ga llia n and Jim liiggins a t the Unit 1 h
j 17 h control room.
They had a rrived ea rlier than I had.
lI lay 1 hey briefed me as best as they could as to the u
19 situa tion at the time.
They had made. arrangements to go a
0 20Q over into the Unit 2 control room.
Shortly after Smitty Ii 21 a nd I got to the Unit I control room and they lef t for the
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22 ll Unit 2 control room.
Shortly af ter that we evacuated the nb ll 23 I site beca us~e Smitty a nd I had no gas masks.
c' 24 Then we went to the tra ns former s ta tion which wa s l
25 ) the normal practice where Smitty had picked up some radon
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on his clothes so we were delayed there for some time until 2
he was released.
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After that we went up to the observation center 4
3
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4 l' and made arrangements for getting back into the site.
5 ;.
Q Do you know about what time it was when you left l
I 1
6L Unit 1 to go to the transformer station?
l 7 i A
The times at best would be guesses here.
I don't h
j 8 ) suspect we were at Unit 1 more than an hour at the most.
l d
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Q Do you have any recall of approximately what time il 10 it wa s when you,lef t the transformer sta tion to go over
!1 l to the observation center?
M 12[
A Well, we were delayed somewhat there but I would 0
13 say not more than two hours.
0 4
14 k Q
Two hours ?
?
15l A
Yes.
From there to the observation center and n
16 !! from the observation center back into the plant.
4 17 Q
Approximately how long were you at the observation
!i 18 ij center?
19 j A
Not more tha n a n hour I would' sa y.
. Rough ly n
20 ] around 3:00 o' clock L was back in the Unit 2 control room; l
1 1
21 '
somewhere a round 3 :00 o ' clock.
22 Q
While you were at the observation center what v
23 did you do?
2.:
A Basically we were just trying to get back into i
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25 ) the site.
They were getting ready to send a helicopter
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1 over to Peach Pottom to pick up more masks.
bbsks were c',
23 the problem for getting back in, g
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We in general were sitting in that forward room i
there where they were having their telephone contacts and 4
5g whatnot.
Just in gene ral listening in but basically trying
'I, 60 to get back to the site.
0 7
Q khen you returned to the site a t about 3:00 o' clock, 8O' did you go directly to the Unit 2 control room ?
n il l
A Ye s.
9 li k
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Q When you went to the Unit 2 control room, who H
uj else wa s there from NRC at that time?
il 17 1 A
I would say definitely Jim liiggins.
Aga in, that i
] is a guess.
'Ihere was nobody else rea lly from the office 13 0
down there at the time so if there was anybody from the la l
15j NRC there, it would have been Jim liiggins.
c 16)
Q Do you remember that Mr. Neeley wa s a lso there l
f f
17 at that time?
I b
la d A
I don't remember reeing Neeley in the Unit 2 0
19 control room.
If I remember right, the llP set up their 1
20] office in the Unir 1 control room.
- l 21?
Q Did you know Mr. Neeley ?.
22 !
A Sure.
During that first ' day' I als~o remember l
/
23 seeing Ca rl Plumlee there.
In - fa c t, if I remember right, 24 when we left that morning, 3:00 o' clock the next morning, 4
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25 j I think we left with Ca rl Plumlee.
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'Q Butl Car 1L Plumlee wa's not in Unit 2, is that
.2 correct ?
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3 A'
I am 's~ure - on and 6ff lduring the time ~ I wa s there --
' ~
' well,;he1 kas basica lly making rounds' a round the yite, but' k
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'on occasion' he<would stop in Unit 2.
. Whather this. was the 5
a f
.6
. first day o~r not -- you know, time-bscomes hazy along
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through~here.
- I linow Ca rl. stopped in a number ofi tinies.
-8 Q'
If not-on th'e first day'--
9
'A.
.a
-- on ; subsequent days.
y9
'f 1 10
.Q.
Bu't' you a re not sur'e if, it wa's on the ~ firs t day ?
l-11 A-Exactly.
'12-Q When you arrived lin.. Unit. 2,; did; they brief you-
-1
- 13 then as to what was goingf on?'
3 Q* ),
14-A-
Yes.
Tha t is-initially the7 first thing you do 15' when you a rrive on site. I i
With Jim having been -there already:
16 you -ta ik to, somebody ' to t ry; to find out how fa r they have 2
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18,
Q
-So when ' you got insideiUnit 2.at about 3 :00 o ' clock
}
LJim,Higgins briefed = ylou 'o'n!/the htatuis of ?the 'planti?
a 19
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-Yes.
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'21 Q
Do :y'ou reca11: what~)he; told y6ulat that jime
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aboutf the situation ~?
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AL The 'only thing; I.- have on' my notes.i here, / "560
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23 1
pounds 'aNd 590 degrees TH. " '.I also ' have down,H B: hasia 24 f
.. 25. j bubble a nd stop steaming between112 :00. a ndL 1:00.~ " d also qt ;
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have 1630 written down with these notes.
Basica lly I l
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2 q would say that was the primary system conditions.
4 3i Q
Is it fair to say then that you don't remember L
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4 what Bk. Higgins war telling you about the plant situation
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at that time ?
6 A
Other than what I wrote d own here...
7 Q
I understand that.
Wha t I am trying to do is 8}seeifthenotes that you have, the notes you are reading 1
9 y from -- can you describe those notes briefly a t this point ?
l 1
toj Don't read the notes but tell me what the notes a re; I,I l
11 a when you-took them and what they consist of.
4 I
4 A
These are notes I took during the continuous 12 13 !
time I was there_ at the site.
This covers a seven-day i
j jaj:
period.
it 15 ;
On many occasions there are phone numbers of l
i 16,
va rious people and things like tha t.
In some cases I have i
e 4
17d questions that I got over the telephone and then the data 1
ti la h I
i P cked up in response to these questions.
Other times J
19 they are just briefings at various times during'my stay 20 h a t the site.
a l
21 Q
Mr. Baunack, can you provide us with a copy of I
those notes sometime today while we are here ?
22
'~'
23l A
You a re certainly welcome to a copy of them.
t 24 MR. RIVENBARK:
Of f the record.
~ ~ '
25 ;
(Discussion had off the record. )
Ub b k. N h h
,k 8
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11 q
li 1 y BY MR. RIVENBARK:
1 2
Q.
Do you happen to recall what was going on in the 3
control room whenever you arrived there at 3 :00 o' clock on f
4l Wed nesda y ?
' ~ '
m 5!
A I rea lly don 't 'know what you a re a cking.
6 Obviously there were a number of people in the control room Il 7 jj working at the console.
Specifically, actually wha t they 8 $) ~ were doing at the time I wouldn ' t know.
d 9]
Q You don't reca ll what the general problem that il 10 they were pressing on at tha t time, the one they were
?j 11 ( trying -- working the hardest to resolve a t that moment ?
12 A
No.
In fa ct, I couldn't say for sure whether y
13 i they were trying to depressurize or pressurize.
Es s entia lly,
8 a
)
I don't know what they were doing.
14 t
15f Initially when we were at the Unit I control room, 16 pressure wa s ra ther low, I think maybe s ix 3 700 pounds when we first a rrived and I think we talked to Jim Seelinger 17 i
la [!
at tha t time because just as we were Icaving because of f
19 q the radiation emergency, I asked Jim what the pressure 1
20 was now and I think he said something Ilke 900 or something il 21 ' like tha t.
h l
i 22 i Genera lly following this type of an occurrence, e-ma n
23 il you would expect people to depressurize and come down I
24 residual in the heat removal system but in this case that
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25 ! didn't happen, 3
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.Q
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Af ter you arriv'ed ' n the control room -
what i
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2'.
did you do 'while.you were in the control room on. Wednesday?
4 s -
l3-A-
I' debriefed with Jim.
I am sure -Jim had 'a 1 ready
' established' - J am p~ositive he had already established I
4-5!l phone communication between'.th'e reslponse center Region 1 an'd the response center at headquarters.
6 4
'Our primary.miss ton a_t tihat-time was to relay 7
- B informa tiori over..-the phone to the ~ response centers..
_Ma ny -
t l ' times they would generate questions and 'we would try and 9
10 go out and gettthe informa tion.
,a i
Smitty initidllyf took over ~ staying.on the phone, 11 i while.I would go out an'd 'try ' o get' the' information they.
t 12 t
13 were requesting.
a 14 Q
'iMr.
Smith wAs ~on the. phone -- he was -generally
.1 S the communica' tors.the whole time that you were in the 16 I. c o nt rol ' roo'm ? '
~
17 A
Generally, yes, but many times I would get the.-
i
-: 18 -
informa tion' a nd.. I 'would; relay the informa tion lto -him on the.
phone rather'than give it ito Smitty }and Smitty. lin turn 19 p.
20 relay it.
We -were taking', turns,' ',fI wa's s pending more time 2n Yout in the control room.
Smitty.wa_s spending, more. time q,
'o L
!22 Jon the te lephone.
J;e.
D 23 Q-At tha t t ime. wa s Mr. Higg ins a ls o ta king 4
'J.
24 : 'information and coming ;back: to the' telephone, or don't you m.
25;! reca ll ?
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.1 A
I'w6uld suspect for some time there we overla pped.
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2-I don't even remember what ' time. lliggins left.the control y
3
' room, but there had to be' some overlap for some time.
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'Q Based on the' notes that I'have' read, it seems
]
5
.that Mr. Illggins was there until'after 6 :00 o' clock, some 6.
time a fter 6 :00 o' clock, so that would have been ar i
- 7 '
substantial overlap ?
8 A
(No response. )
ll 9l1 -
Q While you were in the control-room on' Wednesday, 7
10 did you hear from anyone on Wednesday that there had been 11 '
l a pressure - spike in the: containment ?
12l A
Not on Wednesday.
1 i- /
13l Q
Not on Wednesday?
b
~
14 A
No.
1 15 Q
You heard no discussion of any sort about the 16 conta inment pressure spike on Wednes' day?
17 A
That'is true, i
18 l Q
When did you first lea rn of it ?
19 A
I don't know. ' One morning I came in and Jim' wds 20 briefing.me and he showed me the spike on the' chart.
^
21 l Q
Jim liigg' ins ?
j A
n 22
.A Yes.
V 23
- In genera 1, I was relieving Jim liiggins.
I was h
l.on' day shif t and-he was 'on night.
So when I' would come 24
~
~
i k :0 25 in at-7 :00 or so in the morning he would brief me on the m._.-.__m__...._
l 14 1
night before.
W i
2p This one morning I came in and he says, "Yo u know, we suspect we had a hydrogen explosion -- hydrogen 3
(
4 l burn in the containment because of this pressure spike. "
b 5!
The chart at that time had already been taken off and it jwas in a cardboard box in the control room, a nd that is l
6 il 7'
where I looked at the spike.
af I remember a sking Jim if he ha <i phoned it in, c
9 ] I don't recall exactly what he said, but I am sure I got 10 on the phone too and mentioned it and I am sure they said 11 that yes, they knew that had occurred.
1 E
12 4 Q
Do you reca ll wha t day tha t was that you lea rned I
13 a tha t f rom Mr. Higg ins ?
14 j A
It was on a morning so it was either Thursday or 15, Frida y.
d 16,.
Q bk. Higgins, according to my understanding, was d
1 17 :; not in the plant on Thursday morning so the next morning la ] would have had to have been Friday?
1 el 19]
A Yes.
That would be on the tapes of the phone l
20j conversations, I am sure.
Tha t is the first thing I did i
n 2! ] when I found out.
I got on the phone and mentioned it to 1
22j the response centers.
I am almost certain' that they sa id l
u i~/
23 that yes, they were aware of it.
In fa c t, I thought they g
i 24 ! s a id, "Yes, Ehe called that in during the evening. "
- Now, i
li 25 4 that is to the best of my recollection.
Obviously, the
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u..rcs r.o un ut. u c.. n w, w. v,.. a e,
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15 i
I spike in the containment was a significant type
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21 occ urrenc e.
LJ I
3 Q
On Wednesday while you were in the control room,
/~')
4 I were you aware of a conversation between Mr. littz of Met-Ed
~ L. J 5!
and NRC headquarters concerning the possibility of super-l 6l heat in the reactor?
7; A
A telephone contact between littz and our head-B qua rters ?
9 9f Q
Yes.
i i
10 g A
I am not saying it didn't happen, but I don't 11 b elieve I ever saw littz talking on the phone to NRC head-j, d
12 l q ua rt e rs.
O rm 13 ll Q
But he could have talked in Unit 1 and you would U
t 14 not have seen him, is that correct ?
S 15g A
Sure.
In fact, he could have ta lked out in the
!i i
16ll il c ontrol room when I was in the shift supervisor's of fice 17 or the other way around.
h 18k I think at one time we even a sked liitz to talk 1
{
i 19 ] to headquarters to explain something to them.
I am not l
20j saying he was never on the phone.
What I am saying is that 21[
on tha t Wednesday I don' t recall seeing him.on the phone.
l r
l q
22 Q
Did you ask him ' to ta'1k to headqua rters on the i U 23j phone at Unit 27 24 ]1 A
Yes.
V E
25 <
Q Do you recall what the subject was ?
Y E
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l A
No.
It wa s in response to a headquarters 1
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question.
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'We were getting many questions over the phone, 3
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and we would try to get information in this particular case.
ss) j 5)
If I recall correctly, Hitz was there and he was the most l
6 il knowledgeable on that pa rticular question so we just esked i
7!
him to respond.
I l
B Q
I believe that you have sa id previous ly that the l
9 Met-Ed operational management discussed wha t was going on i
10 I and what their plans were and what they were thinking about 1
11 d openly in the control room?
l n
12 j!
A Yes.
There wa s no ef fort a s fa r a s I could tell ll
(~
13 on the part of Fbt-Ed ma nagement in the control room to
(_/
4 14 k hide a ny information from us whatsoever.
I 15[
Q Uid you ever hear any of the Fbt-Ed management 16j on Wednesday discussing the possibility of superheat in the 17 reactor and whac about the possibility of the core having r
18 been or continuing to be uncovered ?
f 19 ij A
I don't reca ll.
I guess basically I would say
(
20,
no, because superheat and the core being uncovered -- well, 21 i there were high activities _ around the -site so everybody k
22 4 was fairly certain that there was some core damage but v
23 '
that the core was uncovered for some ' period of time, I
~
l i
24l don't think anybody suspected that.
(
x _./
25-]
Q On Wednesday?
ii M t ; N. "- M % T 3 "4/
84 4 P N > f.
Athw-t'F 14 ! % # b( LS M*LL # GAD % VOMd SM hG PA 1988 O
17 I
t 1
A On Wednesday.
s 2
Certa inly I didn't, but as I look at my notes d
3 j!
now, it is obvious that we were in saturation but it was ll
.(]
4{
not obvious at the time to me or to th'e best of my 5
knowledge to anybody else there.
6
-Q Did you overhear the Met-Ed people talking about 7f blowing 'down the reactor while you were in the control room 8
on Wednesday?
3 Il 9 !!
A Well, I don't know what you mean by blowing down
!.i.
10 the reactor.
j
)
11 !!
Q Reducing the pressure in the primary coolant
-l i
12 system to a point where they would be able to connect the ll 13 p reactor heat removal system.
8 d
14 A
'Ihis has been six, seven months ago now, and I am 15 ha zy on this.
16f Obviously, the pressure was lower at one time 17 !
but now in the evening the pressure is high again.
Somewhere t
la th e re, there was probably a decision made to increase i
19 Y pressure.
20 ;
Initially _ through here '(indica ting) I have 21 "B ha s a bubble in it.. "
I think at the time we were a
22 ) thinking -- all of. us probably,'were thinking'that the 77 23
. bubble was in the steam generator candy cane, certainly not 24 in the reactor.
I think raising pressure in order to get m
25 up to saturation to collapse this bubble was a definite he C *a c at s' E N 2n wart 4:C SE*V:Cf 1413 Ot O k4 t t t. M O, A D W V O ed: 5 5 t NG P4 19tto
t.
1 *
~
~
18:
j u
'l intent at ' tha t: time on. Wednesday.
O 9
<^rter 3:oo a'ct'ecx?
i~
13-A There was.very ~1ittle discussion as' to a rapid
.Q ;
.depressurization: or any type of depresruriza tion.
'4 5
3 :00 o ' clock may. be a. little bit early,- be6ause
. you can 'se'e wher'e' I sta rt writing down times.
It wa's; more 6
7 like17 :00 p.m.
w Time was going by very rapidly.-
I would 8
say.dofinitely, there was no real in' tent to rapidly 9
(depressurize J the_ plant.
10 0
'Do you reca ll anyone ' making' measurements with a
- 11 poten'tiometer in the control room of Unit 2 on Wednesday 12
- specifica lly to mea sure the tempera tures-in the. reactor -
13 sys tem ?
- 14 (A
You a re not -talking 'in-core thermocouples ?
Q
.I.am talking either in-core thermocouples or 15
+
16 the hot leg. temperatures, eitheri one.
17
-A.
I know some were taken. down below of the.'in-core IB
' thermocouples :but I don't think this was Wednesday.
In--
19 core thermocouples, I think, became importaat some time
- 20'
'la t er.. Whdn we'look.thhough my(n,otes'we.willtsee where i
21 there is' a first mention' of. in-coke thermocouples.
-I know n
t
.c 22 7
some of those were -verified by Ivan 'Po'rter lut 7whether x
c23 a ny'were in the. control;'ro~om or snot, 'Ildon'd -know.
.24' q
-You mentioned down below, What does down below
,- ' y.,-
" mea n ?-
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A
.I think Ivan was -reading :out the thermocouples
(~N
-- 2' -
- Just~in'the' room below.the control room, to'the best of-my J.
3 knowled'ge.
I never went down with him, but~ in~ the discussions' Ivan would say,: "I.w'ill go down a nd try to
' 4
'S verify it."
6 Q
IIn' other words, you believe that' there is an 1
7 instrument. panel,down there --
t 8
-A nWhere Ivan/was re'adingEout -the thermocouples.
which ' ca n be' connected to. a' potentiometer
~
.9.
Q 10 to read 'the -temperatures ?
y 11l A
Yes.
11iese a re in-cores, right ?~
- 12 Q'
Yes.
1 y
13 ~
A They are not loops.
- (
- i
- 14 Q
Wha t about the loops, ido you know. of a nyone' 15 measuring the loop tempera tures ?
~ 16j A
I don' t know of ' a nyone~. -
[
c 17
-Q-Is it true tha t the hot leg t'empera tures' were
- 18 pegged,against' the recorder limit 7.
19 A
To the.best of my. knowledge,' I remember looking
, 20
. at oi.a t; -least ' one,of.the steam genera tor lio't ' legs _ a'nd it r
I.
3
~
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21 was pegged.
-Maybe when we look through my notes, we wilb f
e
- s 22 see 'if I wrote down any:of these : temperatures.
4
~.
23 To l the ' best. of. my L: knowledge!ind j ificI. reca ll d
-24 correctly, a t lea st.one ~ of; the )T-hotis :wa s pegged.-
~
, y t
f,.
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~
25l Q'
Were thbre twoclocationsLin~the control'rroom where c.m i
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I the hot leg teinpera tures could be read ?
We re there two j
charte in the control room f rom which the hot leg 2
3 temperatures could be read?
4 A
I can 't say.
I know we looked at the center 5
l console, the indication there.
'lhese values I have written i
6 d down here, I am almost certain they were taken down off il 7i the CRT.
t t
a!
Q I have hea rd tha t there was an hour range recorder il n
9 9 on the console and that on the panet just beyond the 0
10 ]
console there was a wide range tempera ture cha rt that had 11 0 hot leg temperatures a s well a s a number of other f
12 tempe ra tures printed out on it.
Do you recall that ?
a 13 lI A
I don't recall using it as such.
I used the 14 one on the center console and the CRT, basically, i
i!
15]
Q You had previously experienced working in the L
16 Three Mile Island plant ?
h 17l0 l
A I think I had made one or two inspections there 18j at Unit I and over at Unit 2.
19]
Q Do you reca11 the nature of your involvement h
20}
in those inspections at Unit 17 21 !j A
I could look back at the old i.nspect ton reports s
22,
at what they were.
,s i
23 i I believe one of them-was maintenance inspection 24 of Unit 1.
Eariier we did a procedures revLew prior to 25 the licensing of Unit 2.
L___..___._._.._..-_______
_ _ _ _. _. _.. _.J
_. -.......... _. _.... _. _. _. ~....
1 L
21
+
4 1
.Q-Had you spent a. s'ignificant amount of. time in
(
2 the' Unit 1 control room?
.3
'A
~ Between my two visits there I am pretty sure.I
'4' did a - calibration or a surveillance inspection at which-S time, = quit'e' a ! bit of time was spent. in the control room.
6 By quite a bit we are talking about maybe 10, 12, 14 hours1.62037e-4 days <br />0.00389 hours <br />2.314815e-5 weeks <br />5.327e-6 months <br />,
'7 something like that.
' 8 Q
The Unit 2 control room is arranged differently 9
than the Unit 1 control room, is that correct ?
10 A
I would say somewhat, yes.
Q Are? the temperature indicators or charts arranged
-11 12 similarly,.to your knowledge ?
13j A
I couldn't say; 14
-Q' Is.it fair to say 'that you were really not familia r with the Unit :-1 control roomElayout a nd the
. 15 16 instrument 17
.AL Unit 2..
s.
' 18-i Q
Unit 2, when you arrived at the ' site.
4 19
-A
. That is a true statement.
Tha e is the first t
20 time I had. ever.been in the Unit 2 control room.
Prior 4 to
- f.,
21 tha t, I had.only been in Unit ' l's controlt room. -
m 22_
MR. SIC ILIA : c 'Off the reco rd'.,,
LOL c.
n 23 (Discussion had.off,the. record. )
i c
'W 1
q 24:
BY' MR ORIVENBARK:
f
- p.,,
25!
Q
~ Vere you aware of any requests from the Region t
s w o Na 4 STENOGRAPHIC Srmvict. 'le t s OL D we.,t go4 D, w f ondisr.ING PA teeIO s.
i i,
1_ h m__
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71 p:
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l' 1'a te on' Wednesday re, ga rding changes to : improve communica-Q '
2-
'tilo'ns' with' headqua rters -- between headqua rters ?
3.
.A
- I' don't Lknow specifically wha t; you.are looking o
> Q.
4
- f o r.-
^
5 During the whole stay tiheir 'commtinicae tons was
,a lways a~. matter of some concern.
I think on one' or two.
6 7
-occasions the phone got accidentally hung up and things like f
J
-8 that.
I think on' one or two occas Loris. too, we lost:contsc't' J
'9~
and we would.~try to reestablish 'it and they would try to 4
10 reestabitsh; it.
.11 Q
. DLd you. receive ;any specific : instructions $f rom Y
112 the region as to :some action to take to improve. communica-e n
.13.
tions; some request to change the emplo'yment of people or s;
{
14 requests of any type directed principally at improvingithe.
15 c communica tions ?
^
i r
16 A'
I don'tLknow.
Smitty may. have the answer,5 but'-
.e 17 i, I don ' t reca ll'.
s
- 18
'If you could be more specific maybe[it:will 19 trigger my memory.
We were making every attempt,'to : keep a 20 line iopen at ;cil. times.
- ~-
9:
3 *.
s
+
- 21
,Q Therch w' s s:a thompla int from headqua rters 'to the e,
.;?
a
-w
- L.
,u
' t '-
J22 fregion late on Wednedday pega rding 'the! communication ~.
s J
rn+a i<
23 1he compla int. was made, to < Boyes {Grier.' p1hst conversa eion a
v:
y b.o-J 24q occu'rred 'a t 'about14 iOO p.m.? on Wednesday..
t jh--
25j J
~ ~ ' '
F
.I was : trying.
- 5 ' determine ~1f following that time jh
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1 23 1
there was some partitcular instruction.tha t you eca ll '
i 0-2 that: came to you, came. to your. attention, as to _ what to do
(
3 y different in handling the communications ?
All I could say is maybe they said something, A
~
j.'
4 5'
"Never leave the phone alone,";or.something of that nature.
6 So that 'we would always have somebody at the phone.
7-I know we had like the headset, the. ha nds et,
8~. 'the speaker taped ~down and ' things like that so people would 9
gnot inadvertently hang up the phone 10 When you say complaints, you mean losing contact ?'
11'
-Q No.
With the inability to get the a nswers to 12 the questions that were asked.
U A Weil, sometimes - the answers may not hav' ;been e.
13 e
- U 14
' read'ily ava ilab'le..
t 15
>Q But' you - don ' t reca l1J --
+
16
'A As fa r' as I remember, Smitty or I wa s a 1 ways.
4 17 at'_ the telephone that. firstYday.
18-Q As I recall, the telephone call.from headquarters 19 was a result of.many hours previous -. exasperation with-
'20 respect to' not' being,able to get the information th5t they
~
't
.u f'
3-
. '21 felt, that they needed a tc tih'e time.
~
4 m.,-
22 A
If it happened, ~it. ha ppened but -I certainly -
'J
>H
~
v.
23 d on ' t re ca 11, a nything 1 ike ' tha t.
~
,.. 7,s,
. e-y j
.24l
-Q When did you leave the site on Wednesday' E
g 25 !
.A-
?As best I ca n remember it was about 3 i00 o ' clock
' y' s j
y.
pg..
wome.c sirNocmanme ssavicr 14is cors um aoao wrowsnmo em t seio f J..
W
K 24 l
o i
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' Thursday morning'.
l
' 2' Q.
When you left the site' on Thursday morning, 3
Ldid you debrief -.did you give someone a briefing on
~
~[
4 what. the seatus was ?a l
15 A
I do.~not recall.
'You mean whether I was J
3.
1 f
6 relieved or how we worked that is what you are sayins?
L 7-Q Yes.
I 4
I 8
A I don't reca 11.
t 9
Q
-Do you reca11'whether or not you went over to. the 10 observation center when.you left to talk to -Rick' Keimig 11l or anyone. to. discuss khat'was going on?
i 12
.A Normally following leaving we did go to the 13.
informa tion center but whether. we-did tha t th'at first night 14 or not, I don' t remember.
15 Q
Tha e is ' wha t: I am trying to. determine.
16.
A No, I don't' remember.
Was Rick down-there that 17-first time ?
18
.Q He a rrived about 9 :00 p.m I believe.
19 i A'
It may well be.
There may be some other records 20 i showing whether we did or did ' not go over.
I' know normally
\\
't 21 when, we would leave 'the site: we would always stop in at
.c
.22j the tra iler.
I l
t
. 'i, 23. :,
Did they-send do'wn' a cobple package,s~for 'somebody ?
t q
24 ( I remember we went to' pick up~som~ e clothing. ' W5 probably.
- 25 did go up to the tra11er the first night because I think we
~
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'went' t'o pick up some clothes and things for people.
khen 2
we went: down) there we weren't prepa red to stay overnight r, "
3 or a nything 'like tha t.
~
I,
~,'
4-I strongly suspect. that yes, we probably did 4
5 go 'up there the;first. night :because I think they called 6;
up and ha'd our wives. pack Eome ba'gs for us and they took
'7
.them do'wn tha t af ternoon..
8 In looking baek, I would say a imost certainly I
L 9:
yes, 'we did go up. to '.the information Lcenter.
10 Q
But you don't remember who was there ?
11' A
No.
12 Stohrs',- 'I think, may have been there.
It may
~
q
, -,q 13 have been his car. that we were getting some of the bags
U 14 out of.
l l
'15
'Q Is there a'nythibg specific about Wednesday L
i
=16 that comes to your mind that'you think we ought.to discuss 17 before moving on toiThursday?
-1B A
I don't know of anything.
Maybe as'we go along 19'
- we will think of something else, but not right now.
20 MR. SICILIA: ^ ~ George, can I clea r up a few I
21-points before we move' ori VoCThursday,?
it.(
e 4
z W
J22
-MR.iRIVENBA'RK:' #Sdre.
~
V,
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t.
23j MR. SICILIA:. O.f f t, h.e -rec.ord.'
n.
24
~(Discussion ~ hadioff! the record.~)'
~
' ~
^
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25 l BY MR. SICILIA:
3 d
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14 t 3 OL L MvLt RC AO WYOMIS$UeG PA.t9480
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~
1 Q
You said prior'to' departing the Region l' office 12 on Ma rch 28, 1979, in,the morning, you were given no 3;
specific reason why you were going other tha'n' to' find out,
~
~
4 whatswas going on 'atithe site ?
5-A That's right.-
I don't' think anybody knew exactly 6
wha t happened at the ~ site.
In fact,.we. were listening 7
.to. the radio 'on the _way down. to get: more informa tion.'
8 Q
You alss said that Harry Kister told youlto go i
1,
.9 '
to;the site, is that correct ?.:
10 A.
Ye s.
n
.Q _
Ha rry ' Kis t er, is he your section chief ?
A Yes.
12 w:
13 Q
He-is f your norma l section chief 7
~
- 12 !
A'.
Ye s.
G 15 Q
Was he involvediin this emergency situation at s.-
16'.
the time ?
I q
17 A
I would say to th'e extent of' setting up the.
3
~
18 emergency center here in the ' conference room. he 'was. as 19 involved as anyone.
I am ecre there were other people 20 involved, too_.
(
21 ;
-Q
' S'o _ Harry Kiste,r then -wa s invol'. ed with the -
v p
p
~
22' l emergency response centier. here int 1 Region '1'? ~,.
n-L (-
A Ye s.
This was; just! 'the birth of.th'e response 23; t-g.
23 {
center..
a r,
.;r'
'J
~ Q.
~ When you..left the. Region 1 of fice that morning, x
mwa nwmme s.mc.. im eo mu.6.o mom.m. ~ i. m
.1 : ;
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t
_.1_
_ _ _ _ _ -._.__---_--_---i--------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1 27 m
1
. 1 ~-
wa s; there a sense of emergency in your mind ?.
- . ~
~
, f~~'j 12 A
I don't know how you will want me to respond 3t to'that, rea lly.
Certainly not the emergency tha t it
- 4
' developed to be.
,5 Any t-ime you have any kind of an occurrence at
?
6.
. a plant we try to respond as quickly as we can.
Generally,
i-7-
we try to belay; people !s fears of it being an emergency.
a We try to get some accurate information back saying it is 9
not really as bad as people make it out to be.
10
'Q Before you left the of fice, did you sense a n 11(
air of an emergency here in the office by members you had
- 12 contact with ?
,f 13 A-Aga in I don't know what you call an emergency.
14 ~
Certa inly there was a lot of concern on' people's parts; 15 certainly in setting up the response center there was some 16 concern.
17 Q
Did you know who to report to when you went to
~
18 the site that day or were you told 'who to report to ?
19 A
M10 to report to at the site?
b 20 Q
Yes.
1, 21 A-No.
We a re familia r enoughiwith entering sites
'it
~
22 that we pretty much know where to go'to get the - informa tion J
t
.23
- tue wa nt.
24 In addition the region:would have ' no way,of 3
O.
1
'25}
. knowing who' was at the site at the time.
s i.ove n s e r%*sanaame scavict ten oto wett ao o o= u sia.o ra t*s m
~
28 i.
! 1_
Q' You said you arrived at the site and you were 4.
,2
_in the Unit.1 contro1croom at about 11 :00 a.m. on the
.3 28th and you metlwith Higgins and Gallian, you received a
~
4 briefing and they went into the Unit 2 control room and 35.
you had to evacuate the~ site.
In doing so you realized j
6-that' Smitty.'s pants were hot and you went to the transformer station --
7 8
A We didn't' rea lize it,; they identified it a t ' the 19 tra.nsformer s ta t ion.
10 Q
Where was, Smitty deconed ?
11 A
. At the transformer station'.
I think the decon 12' !.sonsisted prima rily of decay.
I I
13 Q
You said that at about 3 500 o ' clock you were
/
14 back in the Unit 2 control room?
i 15 A
The times a re a pproxima te.
16 Q.
They a re ' a pproxima te ?
17 A
Yes.;
18'
.Q You thought Higgins was.there. a nd : Higgins. briefed i9
'yo u.
You.also mentioned.that Higgins liad already established 20' communications with the incident. response center with 21 Region 1, Region.1 headqua rters.
-[-
(
A To' the.best of my knowledge, yes./ Certainly we
.h'
- 22 1 L
j
' ~
didn'tf. dial the -phone and pigk it.,up unless Smitty did.
j 23 2.i I am-sure 'we were already on' the phone.
[
e
~
25:
Q Can you explain that setup a littl$ bit better, i
inomensnuocwam.csawct iv a on.o uh moao weomss..es. en ineio-e
- b.... -
p >.i.%
4 -
n 29 p; 0,
3
- 1 if you can recall?
I am as'suming tha t these phones were
[(
22 in the Unit 1 shift supervisor's office ? -
3 A
Tha t 's right.
k You had a separato line to headquarters and a
'4 5
s epa ra te line to Regio n 1 or wa s it a t ie line ?
c6 A
It was a tie line.
- 7. '
Q So we are ta lking about one phone ?
A one phone.
18:
9.4
'Q That was considered an operations line, an HP 10,
line or both ?
~
I 11 I A
We considered it an operations line because I 12
. think later, and maybe= chat day, I don't know when, but 13 they' set up another line' from the shift supervisor's office I
14
.to the Unit I control room.
15 Q
Did you also 'have contact back into the Unit 2-w
'T6 control room by way of' telephone ?
17 A
There was a telephone line between Unit 1 a nd i
18 Unit 2, I don't. believe we used it very often.
.19 Q
That wa's not~ tied into this line back to --
2 20 ;
A No..
~
21
.Q What about f rom the Unit 1 control room?
^
=
22
.A
- I don't know,who thsy tied in:with.
U 23 Q'-
This morning you also mentioned. that in the 3'
'24
. afternoon of Wednesday you recall -a~sking Hitz to go to
. Q'.
-25 the phone and talk 'with headquarters ?
f-
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- /
1 fAO I'ain~not'..evenI saying that is Wednesday for sure.
g..
j
.2 I am sayingL that at some time during that' day 1 1 am certain 4
4 3 -
we ' a sked the lice'nsca...
J 4
Q
' So thatiwa s not..necessa rily' Wednesday?
5L
- AL
..It may not even 'necessarily been Hitz.
Hitz 1;;
'6
-being on-days, he is the most likely one.
There may have s
4-7
.even been other occasions where we had licensee personnel' I
8 respond to headquarters or the region.
9 Also, I was not always in the shif t supervisor's 10' office, so there could have been many conversations on the -
11 phone that I knew;nothing abo'ut. - lhere were times.when I 12
- was out in the control room or somewhere out in the plant 13 and I have no idea what'ha ppened to the phones during: those 14
. times.
15 Q
You mentioned tha t Ivan was down below reading
'16
.the in-core TC's but you don't recall if that was on i
17 Wednesday or not ?
18 A
No.
If I had to. guess I would say it was not on
~
19 Wednesday because I ~ don't think we were discussing th'ermo-i 20 couples on Wednesday.
21 a
MR. RIVENBARK:
You can te11, probably, by 4:
22' looking through your' notes whati iday it 'wa s. ,
x 73 i THE WITNESS:
-Iram,trying zto ;do tha t.
z,
- p
.24 j ' ~ BY MR. SICILIA:
25'
~ Q When you mentioned Ivan, I assume 'you are ta lking.
r 7
- von.cs snuoedome stavic a.
r eis oso u a como; wvowis m.o.' *a sosio
.T 4
4 y
31 F
I about Iva n Porter?
(]
2 A
Yes.
3!
Q In your notes, can you recall when he might have
!I
.{])
4 taken those in-core readings ?
5h A
I have in my notes here, " Verify some thermo-t 6l couple readings. "
l 7l I think that is 'probably in response to a question a]
on the phone sayir.g, "Is there a ny way we ca n verify these d
9 h readings ?"
7 10f Q
Can you give me the time and the day?
11 A
Unfortunately there does not seem to appear to be 12 h anything here in the way of pinpointing the time.
If I ti 13 ) had to guess I would say Thursday.
I doubt very much if 8
a 1
14 L lt wa s Wednesday.
0 15 !
Q Your notes indicate to verify some thermocouple h
16 rea dings.
Was that an independent determination to do that, 17 I or do you think that was a response to a question from V
18 f either headquarters or region 1 into the center?
19,
A It would be a guess, but I suspect it was in
?
I II 20 J res ponse to a question.
Initially, there was not much 8-21]
faith in using in-core thermocouple readings.
I am sure y
a.
22j somebody said, "Is there any,.way we can. verify some of f
O-0 23 -
'these readings ?"
it
.d 24)4 Q
You indicated that possibly' Nednesday night you 25 [ left the site to go to the observation ' center to pt ek up 9,
^'
_uc
$ sis aex= ac~*.: stev c t.
ma rto w tt =on o. w vowis si%s en 59sto
3
~
s
.c 32 I
.v I
(some packages from' home., ' You thought you were taking them
(. r,.
.o 2-
/J out of Ihil Stobr's car..You also indicated that you
' d'on ' t. reca li seeing a'ny,other NRC people tha t night.
~
.h,. s 4l A'
No, no, no,. I' am not saying tha t a t a ll.
I don't s
'f 5'
recall who I saw..Ifsthat is ' th'e night. when Ih11 was 6-
'there, he wa s there with other people.
7 Q
And Phil was there that night and so was Keimig 8-later on in the evening.
9' A,
If I reca ll, Keimig, I think, was staying at the
)0 same motel we were.
11-f Q
DSyou' recall briefing anybody when you went for ti 12]~ those packages or -talking what we will consider management 13
.]J being Phil S'toh'r or Keimig while you were off site about u
I4 the situa tion on -site ?
15 A
If we went up there and if we saw them, we 16' certainly talked 'to them about the, situation on ' site.
17:
~
~
- Ba s ica lly, that was. the only. thing' we were ta lking about.
18 f
MR. SICILIA:
I have no other specific questions 19 '
fo r Wednesday, George.
20 THE WITNESS:
Wa it a minute.
Maybe we should f
21 clarify something here.
22 ]
,. A'fter that react;or coolant $ pump twa s started,
t
' 23 there was some sense of relief and also,, there was some -
24 q
pretty good control of;the plant.after that; So the problems M
. 25 ]q.were mainly a release-type problem rather than ~any i
uom sys ~ew e.c se av,es. im ow wtt =cac, * <cm ssmo. -a moo nA-
=
' ~
9.5,
113.
Q L
33-4.,- y -
,o em -
7 -
.x W1. additional core problems..
Y. yY.',
25-iBY MR.? SICILIA :
3?
- Q.
,3
, So as far' a s - operations or plane sta tus, it'was 2. - -.,.
U a'ssumed that 't:he reactor was' pretty stable ?
>y
'5 A
Yes, we proba bl'y ' would say, '!She is holding very 6-nicely at' a/thousand pounds, ' -
s 7.
- Q Your.. impress ton of 7the pe riod of. time whon tha t 2
8' came aboutTwouldibe what=?1 9:
A-Well, we -have 'that in the notes when the reactor 10
' coolant pump wa s sta rted.
It. looks like it was somewhe re
'11' J etween 7 :00. and 8:09.o' clock.
After that there wa s a b
12l omewhat sense 'of' relief but on the. other hand, there were 13 things. occurring which indicated the problems were more -
A.
14 severe than' we initially; thought.
One of which being the 15 l reactor coolant. sample results.
~
16 I thlnk the primary system sample results made a
~
~17 Elot of people aware of 'the. fact that there was a serious 4 18.
problem.
m r
y
.l 19-
- MR. : SICILIA : ' 'Iha t is a ll.
.(
'20 BY MR. RIVENIMRK:
s M
Wh'lle you were mentioning samples and' before I
.j.
-21:
Q WA' q.
s ya al22 get;to; Thursday in general, -do you recal1~ a ny; sampics being 3
ac, <
.-1
' i ;.
- 23;-
ta ken 'ont Wednes day ?
f
+
y/i) =,;: -
c2p
,y
. Primary system ' samples ?
c.(,
2-
. -Q i Yes..
y y-w
'25g V'
s o
. - c.
C' B
7 M cm(
- sissosaatum eunoca ? ses on t> md 'aoan wwomessNe em
.**to
~
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- p,,
j'
+
+
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?
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- , f
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r 34 A
_:1
- A.
21 don 't reca ll a ny.
I would say for sure tha t
- .a 1
['[
there probhly-we re- 'none.
2.
.31.
Q.
' Do you reca111any ' containment atmosphere samples t'$ ken on. Wednesday ?
4'
-5
- A
' Bere may-have been.
I didn't write any down.
6; Q
Moving on to Thursday, when did you return to 7-
.the rsite.on:: Bursday, - do you recall?
8 A
I~ would 'say we proba bly - got there about 7 :00 in 9 I the, morning, something like. that.
1 1
1 Q'
On your' way into the site, did you stop by..the 10 }!
11 IE ~ center over a t the ~ observation center?
12 A
Whether we did that' Eursday or not, I don't 13 remember. ' Again, norma lly :I think we were stopping in for 14 a while for several days-and. I think we may have discontinued 15 tha t and went right to-the site.
16 Q.
Do. you recall who' you relieved ~ at Unit 2 when
~
17
,you went in 'on Ihursday morning ?
]
- 18 -
A It may have been Bill Raymond.
I think Eursday'.
i 19 we set"up th'e watches so that first ' night I don't know who.
5 20 I" relieved.
Again, if I hai. to guess I would.say Bill i
21:
Raymond.
22'
.Q
- Who was in the Unit 2 -control room _ with you.on
' ft.
,., w i
{^
' 23-l Thursday ?
y,g xj.
T'
^ '
24 A
Smitty and I, s..
El
,p j
"aw
~g"i,
25-IQ'.
You a rrived a t. the, same t im<t ?,,
m a
MOg<M $7 hQ, APH8C $(hwiCL t h13 CLD M' LL h0 AQ. WTGMI S$s *4G, P4 ' 19 610 I
i..
l
'l~
a-c
'1 A.
Yes.
I think we rode in'his car.
(2.
Q
~ Do youf recall'what was gotiig on in the Unit 2
~
3.
control room wheniyou 'got there on Thursday?
4 A
Not s pecifically.
It doesn't look like.1 wrote down the.init-ial conditions on Thursday.
S'.
.6 Q.
Do you~ recall who you talked to on ' Thursday:
1.
'7.
a.orn ing to find. o ut wha t the s it ua tion wa s ? -
- A No, _ I ' d o n ' t.
9 Q
' Is ; it ~ fair to say then that you' would have talked 10 to --
11 1 A
Whoever was there; whether it was Havercamp, 12-Raymond - or both or. whoever. wa s there I certainly would have
~
13
-talked to.
0' la '
Q-Would you have gone to the licensee, also.?
15
.A Ye s.
Like I sa id, gene ra 11y in the morning 16 they would have a meeting.in the shift supervisor's office i
l 17 so they would be briefing each other at the same time as
-18 we were briefing our. people -- getting debriefed from our 19 people.
l l
- 20.
Q Would.you be present in the shift supervisor's l'
21 r nom with them while they were-having their meeting ?
?
22' A
Tha t wa s. a 'b ig s ource of our..informa t ion, the l
' ~
23' licensee wateh turnover l By citting in on, their' turnover n.
24
~we also got the picture of.what was going on.'
c25 '.
'Q-Do you have a^ny recollection of wha t you did on l
4 s
Mc N tC a, Sta P40GRa #e"C GEgy.Ct.
1453 OLO wtLL MAO wv0M'85 LNG PA 194'O m_____.____
m
- 36 m
c.
I Thursday a fter,you got there?
What ' a'ctivities were you
, (g-2
['
. involved in?
3 Al Thursday it was still,primarily feeding informa-
'd~
tion to jthe Lincident: response center, and respondi'ng-to their 5
. ques't ions. ~ 1 hat is basically what we. were doing.
26
.Q Do.you recall wha t. the plant wa s doi'ng at that 7
t ime ?
+
8 A
No.
From 'my not'esfit ; would seem like. they are
^
9 still'. holding' at about a thousand pounds.
.I think that was
~
10 the intent at tha t time, to just stay at La thousand pounds.
11 Q
When you wereiin the control room, 'did you-ever 12 -
make any suggestions. to the utility people -as to wha t they -
I 13
~
[}
'ought to. consider?
U ild A
Yes,.with res pect to many things we were quite n
'15 frequently doing that.
16 Q.
Can' you. recall some. examples.of some of the 17-things that you might have talked to them about?
18 '
A Well, after we got this' high sample we ' definitely
~
19 talked to them about' the use of the RHR system for shutdown
}
20 scooling.
21 I remember. a sking them to try and dig up some
..- is 22 surveillances _ of (the suction lines to see.what ; type of
_y
'~
23 lea kap;e wa s. normally expected ' f rom Ltha t' system.
g
~Aysp'ecific exAimple, if you' want)one, is certainly 24
, Q; q).
.25 the ' use of the RHR followingithe resuits of s the primary
)
MC%tCW sitMocas A PHec ardve(t 14 9 3 ot ti M *t s no e n wyoMeess%s.PA e6440 x
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s 8
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e n.j-Tsample', that 'was"one that was definitely discussed.
o e
- 2 (Q7
[Does a nything else'- come to mind ??
3.
A'
~Do you have a for -ins tance ? - Ma ny times with
,.7
- regard to 'little things like'llet downs,(waste gas header,
.I 4
~
5 things like. that, we were using the prints together and.
- 6 trying to' figure.out flow paths and things of that nature.
1 m
7
- Q I do'n't have ~a for. ins ta nee.
What I am trying -
(
m B
to ascertainifor the record is ~the-nature of your activities,
9-the extent to which they were ~ simply data collection, pa ssing information_ back to headquarters where people a sked' y
questions a nd. to the exte'nt to '
h you were involved ini 4
doing, some evaluation bf. your own and -maki.ng suggestions 13 to the utility or..: the'.. nature of your activities;, tha t ' is
.jg my question.
A w uld isay the whole thing was a _s pirit of :
- 15:
' ~
g
. coopera tion at this. time.
Whatever they were proposing -
we were looking through.the prints together.
We were 37 ig:
doing whatever we' could together.
Wha teve r s uggestions 39
. were a ppropriate,. If think we made. them.
3 20=
Q-Would you consider that an informa1 procedure.
^
reviewN c
21
-;(
~
' 22 -
A-
,Welgot f'ntoImore formal'lproeddure revLewstlater..
~
i z'&'
]
~p ge [v
'23 Q _
- Wha't bl. am"sdying fis ', Twould j you, cons ider' that 'an; C~
+
n
- - r a
'24
. informa l: procedure.-. review ?
~
H N
/
?N
.c 2
?Yes',. except.that there was?p'robably; not procedtire.;,
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e I'
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.. MOCCat $7 ENOCR A P iC 3FhihCJ.14ka CLD WsL'L Ph A O, 'W TOMt S$ s N G. P A. - 19610
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+'
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-It was a proc'edure -being planned at the time.
s
].
- 2m Fro'm the, point : of. view of the eva i.m.mion a nd 13 what they'were going to do, I woutdh't' say it:- wa's ; that
'4
- inf orma l.-
We certainly wa nted to be informed of exactly.
m -
a
~ ha t they were d' ing and how they L were fgoing' to_.do ~it.
5, w
o 16; We'would ass'ess what: the consequences were.
Certainly we.
~
17., had our telephones a ailable so that we could, at any time, e
- a 8~
call headquarters for help.
It wa s n 't a s inf orma l a s. it
~
.y
- 9 was here.
Q
~
J 10 0n that sample on Thursday, when you -learned
~
11 about the high activity < 1evels, can you dsscribe the 12 licensee's feelings about that sample at-that i t ime ? ? Did '
13 they.make a comment that this looks like,we have extensive 14 damage 'or can you characterize ahat the'. discussions'Lwere i
15
'a t the time that the sample activities came in?
Wa s there 16 a ny dis'cussion? '
,s 17 A
There was.quite a bit of discussion, obviously..
la The _ licensee:may have. gotten these numbers a little b'it-t 119 before we did.
- 120 The. first thing I did, I got on the phone and-q 21 '
phoned these res,ults in' During that time I' don't know
^
22 what. the lic~ensee.was doing.
40'
' 23 },
Yes, these :were'high ' readings.. 'I don't know what
- po
,j
.., -. ~
i l24
- youTa re ' getting at but certa' inly he was just as concerned
[
,f' 1~
m 25
. a s anyone else ~ when th'ese readings ca'me o~uth
,3 y
p.f C '
5l
< f M
woapcat 'stre.ocmaewic aanvics.' 54 ts oto urtt moao. w v'ouessis r.
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u
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k 3
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39 7
i 1
Q Was that the 'first indication tha t you had of extensive damage to the fuel?
(]}
2 3!
A Well, I think this confirmed probably more 4
serious damage.
It was certainly more serious than I
{)
of the people 5l expected a nd probably more serious than most L
6 ll at the site expected.
4 7'
Q Do you recall whether the licensee was discuss ing a f serious damage before the sample?
A Everyone was aware that there almost certainly a
A 9[Y 10 j had been some core damage but how serious it wa s 'I don ' t 11 know.
I am sure nobody thought it was as serious as these W
numbers indicated.
12 13 f, That ea rly in the occurrence, the length of the were not yet being discussed.
la y shutdown and things like that.
L Q
Abo ut releases from the makeup tank and from the 15 H
16 2 gas decay tanks, do you recall any activities related to 0
17j these releases or, Thursday when you were there?
i 1a 3 A
I am going -- this is a' long time ago.
If my II 19 [j memory serves me correctly, I think there was an attempt i
20 q made to depressurize the makeup tank in order to increase h
23 ll 1etdown flow.
I think during the process of this depressuri-1 i
I 22 '
zation I thi~nk there was a spike or release spike.
il 23 ji remember we were looking at the-prints seeing what all l tied into this waste gas line, the number of release 24
)
25 ] valves a nd things like.that.
3 47%
N E e
,RAFriC 4,THV
- t. t 1413 060 4 L L MJ A F WTCM v.
- t 'e (,
- 4 19 4 f f
f" 40 1
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mp
- 1-
.Q
- Do' you recall whether this iwas =a fter ithe 's ike'.
s
,]-
~
2-
'or before.the. s pikeL-th,a t you were -l'ooking;st ~ the prints?
If - youlknow whenE he spike. occurred I think we.
'A 3-t y
, 9. x i wereolooking.a t the prints Din.che mornin'.
I;wouldisay it g
'c
-3
~ wa s. a f ter.
~ C
~
s c
6'
..Q:
Ildo'n't. know5 hen.the. spike occurred. - I have -
4
'7.
ithe impression that there were so'me. releases on Th'ursday;
~
- 8 I have the
- impressida that there <were relesses! on[Fhiday; w
9
- I know that5 the evacuation-situation came f up on Friday 7
-10 morning but - now I am back talking on Thursday, Thursday 11.,
during~ the, daytime, 'during.the period o~f time.' tha t$you were
~
12-there in the plant as to whether or not you were involved, 13 at that time?
Do you recall 'whether you. looked at thef li !
prints with the licensse on ' Thursday?
1, 15l A-
. Days.just sort of' melted 'together ~ s o I! can't; say for sure what day it was, 16 17,
Q If I told youilhursday was _ the day that there s
la was tt> >:onc ern' ' abo ut the ' dumping 'of the. ind_ustrial waste
- 19 ]
water intohthe river, would that --
1
~
20 A-I have that here.
' I have ~ industrial waste water
~
12f
.here a nd after that I have-thermocouples.. I remember that W
22 industrial. waste tank. : I thought tha t occurred in the
~
- O
^, J,
' S 23.
evening.
?
s 24 ;
.Q But that. doesn't-help;you to remember anything
.?
,,~i e
25 ll about ' the ma keup ta nk ?or 'tihe!'-, ', >
I
,s 1
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(.
, uomcs. Srauosnaer<ee sanviet.1453 oto u ts mo4o,wrovis%!NG 196f0 P A,-
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. 41
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T1-A
- No.
If I had: to guess again, :I would say the
[. D,
4 makeupL ta nk occurred after clie" industrial waste ta nk.
1
'2-
-Q
' ' There was 'a time where : Don Beckman was s pecifically
^;my
~
W,,
'4
' assigned just to' waste a nd' relea ses.
s QJ P
5 Q-Wo is ' Don Beckma n ? -
+
. y.
J6 A
He 'was another region 1 inspector who wa s there.
7 The day he arrived. I don 't.know for. sure.
I'know his
't; 18 s pecific ~ assignment was to track waste.
9 What day. he got there. a nd wha > day he was given
~
10-that as signment I don't know, !but releases and the. minimizing 11
- of relea ses was. of prime concern to everybody.
12 Q
The-NRR team headed by Bill Volmer arrived at t
l the site on Thursday. -- Did their ~ a rrival' have a ny impact 13 -
f-) :
14
., on your activities ?
i 15 A
Not in the' control room,.no.
16 y
-Q~
Were they in the' control room on Thursday.?
17_
A 1 don't know specifically who came down.
I i
la
' remembeh Jerry Holman and another -one from the. Licensing 19 !
branch, a nd I thought that was ' Thursday. night' when they'
' 20 ~
-got in there, Thursday evening.
~
21 ' ;
- Q Do you recall an IE man from ~ headquarters coming
.. ;c
- 22 with_thae Volmer group?-
g 23 j
-A Not specifically._
l
+
- 24'i Q
If I-give you"the E ame-Mr. Klingler, Jdo you recall n
3,
-'25 ] 'L-a ma n L by. tha t ' na me ?
3 3
Y
+
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a n.
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y AL
-I do'n't know~ if. I saw Jerry at. the site or not.
~
y)f
.2
_'Q
' You do know him?
-3 4A' Ye s.
4
. hat isia rather large control room at Three. Mile
~#
5-
-Isla nd.
-It can. swallow up a --lot of, people.
'6
' Q Do you. recall if you saw htm on subsequent > days ?
I 7.
.A No, I jdst don't recall.
There were-many people i t 8
there that I met..
9 Q.
The rea's on I am asking you about Mr. Klingler, 10 and the reason I thought that it might stand out a little 11-bit is because I'had been told.that he was s pecifically
^
12-sent with-'the Volmer team to coordinate with the NRR i
13.
activities with IE and to assist in that.
14 A~
Do you know'what watch he was on or was he 15 assigned a watch ?
16 Q
I have no knowledge of ' what he.d id f a fter he 17 arrived at the site.
'2 -~
la. ;
Did the Volmer team impact your activities: after 19 !
Thursday?
=;;
20
'A After Taursday the: plant' was sort of stable.
21
- We were getting more into review and procedures and. things a
22 of ' tha_ t na tdre. -
O 23 Like I said, r L,went down to 'look at ' the. hook-up e
.f gy4 2C for the waste gas into'th,e containment, and that type of
~
25.
thing; The.: pla nt wa s more ~ s table a t. this i time so there was Mohtc % h f f ?toGda 5+td SENy tCf. te f't dLt+ MIL L Acab - W 9Curssioso. pa tegno.
i 2
m.
_______..-.__.__s.__.-_
_ - _ _ _ -. -. - = _
-n_-m-
,r-
. '43
,~
-w y
A Y' i P'
1 not/a ' great deal ofjcha'nge in data; to 'be coming in.
~
l jd,
~2 Ne' were getting involved more -- in fact, - they N.
43 were starting to discuss : surveillances and' things of that 4i nature; surveillances hat sliould be done and the conditions 5
that the plant was ini
-6
'Q-These people were in the control room with you i
7 at the same time 'you, were.there?
8 A
'Ihere were a ' umber.of people ~ from NRR in the-n 9
control room.
In fact we had' set. up a table in the back 10 where the procedure reviews: were being done.
11 Q
Did' you work with the-NRR people?
l
.I 12 A
Yes, we cooperated as much as we could.
13 Q
Can you describe the nature of the cooperation?
i 1;
14:
Were you an interface between them and the licensee?
15 Were you reviewing the procedurec with them? IWere they 16 interfacing directly. with the licensee?
17 A
It is kind of all of the above at one time or 18 another.
I think sometimes they went directly to the 19 l licensee.
There were times we were reviewing procedures 20 f with them and then there were. other times we were. trying 21 to give them prints and things of that na ture tha t we A
A'
- 22 knew where they were having been there a couple days longer.
();
l
].
Q You indicated previously, I believe, in one.
23
} p.
24l of.your -letters writtien i toithet.. summari: ding your activities
'v;-
25l ' a't the'sitet I believe that u the place where.you p
I
~
l k
4 b'
.3
in 5.
~
o
+
44
~..
3, ~ '
1
. indicated that there was no designated NRC person in. charge Q
.2 to deal ~ withu senior, licensee people present.
'3
' A' In the control room, right.-
("Y A-
'Q
'Ihis Lled to ' confusion?
.c s
v 5:
A Yes.
j 6
Q Can you describe when this first became _a problem?
7 Wa s = it.on Wednesday?-
8 A'
As more people arrived.- :When there are only two 9'
people there in the control room from NRC it 'is ' not a l
problem but ;as ' more. a nd more.-people' arrived it 'became a 10 11 1 problem.
12 ' f Q
Did it first become a problem when the NRR L
13,
people arrived ?
1 l
1.s A
Yes.
Not because 'they are NRR people, it is 15 j us t that there'were more NRC people there.
f 16 Q
Can you recall a..' specific incident ?
17 A
Not s pecific, ~no.-
4 18 [
Again, that wa s a7 recommendation from the ' point 19
.of view that if this ever ha ppens again I think it would 20 j be more beneficia 1 to do itathat way, set up' a contact."
i 21 ~ l Q
It. sounds like s ? reasonable recommendation to L A
.22 me. -
4 x_/
~
23' How did you ha'ndle'.the communications or the
- r]
24i coordinatilon of'information with IE people on.the site on
, /~3,
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Thursday?
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'A You mean site specificfinformation in the
~
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. L -; & ' -,
con' trol-room at :the. tihte?.
~.
2 -.
' ; 's LNot 'necessar$.1' ' site specific information, but 3
Q-y
-.4 h'ow did the various IE people on the site know what you T
^
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, were.doing and what you were' learning and how did 'youL know
~
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.c what. they were doing and whar they were learning.
~
-6 3
7
-A
- Jus t by d isc uss io ns.
~ 1here was no formal d
mechanism set up.
~ 9'
.QL LWhen did 'you have' an opportunity to discuss 10:
things with the other IE people?
11 A
Just1during the time that we were there.
I d
12 '
remember Jerry Nimitz, we talked to him~ quite a bit.
13h
-Q Was ' this when he was' in' the contro1 room?.
14}'
JA Either "in the. control room or at the back tables.
e
~
'15 Th'ey: had set up tables in :the back where they were working.
+m s.
16 Q.
Were there any meetings called by the IE manage-r dient thati involved the IE inspectors where you sat down 17' s
18-
'a nd ' discussed what ' your iplans:were and how you' were going I,
. 19
. to'-do things ?
e,
L.
v
. 20 A
All of-us together?
1 21
-Q'
'All or-a group, two or three, something that m
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22:
one1would: call a meeting as opposed to a personal-conversa-123 1 tion?J l
- ~
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, Informal: meetings l,lbutl certainly nothing formal
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. as., established.,
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Do you recall: where these meetings might have se 4
a
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?been held ?
a.3.
- A.
They.c'ould have been held anywhere in the control
~
,0 1
- 1. N i4 room.
At the back tables there were certainly people
, Q_
- 5 -
t'ogether quite of ten.
The shift ' supervisor's ' office wa s l',
.d1 another. place.
c
.7
'. Q. '
Did : the -IE management ever come over to the.
,8 controE room?
9 A
By management. who are you saying?
Collins was 5
10' there.-
'y LQ ;,
Collins?
J u
A-Yes.
]j
'la Q-What about the IE management person?
Collins is a
~
1',j' 14 person--out of NRR.
15 A:
I don't recall of any. IE management coming _down
-16
.to the control room while I wa s on' wa tch.
In fact, at - one 17 Point i~n my note here I have, Rick up in the tra iler, "
18
. a nd it. says,. " Call him every two hours or - every fo ur 4
}
19.
' ho urs '. "
~
Q' So. you called Rick Keimig every, two to four 20 m.
21 !
hours for.what purpose?
p j
N.
22 ;
A I ' called him every few hours, I guess.
i L1 1
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-23.f Q
'Ihis was for. wha t purpos e 7 -
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To brief him on.the. status.
[I) m 25,
I would say of the: NRR people there, Collins,
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la uben9and Nimit'z were;our prine'ipal. contacts.
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' BY. MR'.ISICliIA s
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..Q l s -Are these. people management peopib Lin IE?
~
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4, jA They ' a re. NRR.,
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. Like. I said, 'ma nagementLpeople in' IE I don't -
M
^
reca11' of any coming down to the control room.
Like I say, 6-m 7-I have that note cin h'ere, where I was briefing Rick every
,8 fewLhours.
9c BY MR.-.RIVENBARK:
10
. Q' Wo did ~you consider to be 'your boss at the site?
11
- A-Well,.Grier ' certa inly when' he was there, -but he
~
.12 -
wa s not a prime' c onta ct.
If we had problems or anything 13' _
like thati we 'would caIL: Rick up in our trailer.
O, 14 Q
..So 'you considered Rick Keimig to be the nominal 21 i-15-. (IE lead.(person?
4 16-
.'A Of course,. he was :there during the day.
During the evening shift Lit may have been somebody else.
I think y
' Ebe had midnight to 8:00.
is Q
- Ebe~ McCabe ?
'19 r20 A
-Yes.
'21 Q
- M ~c-C-a -b-e ? i
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22 A
Yes,. I think. =
10 23-For my purposes Rickt.was(on days so I was calling -
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Rick. > I-am'sure whoever was'o~n night wa s call.ing whoever -
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. the.section chief was at night.
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MR. TSICILIA i - George, can' I pick up here for a 2'
- minute?.
(.
l 3-MR. RIVENBARKL Yes.
l W
'4 BY MR.1SICILIA:
<().
'5 Q
On Thursday do Lyou recall seeing Keimig on the 6.
site?
7 A
I think we may have rode together that morning, S'
but I am not sure.
9 Q
Did Rick come_ on site, do you recall?
E 10~
A-I think Rick' stayed at.the same motel we did on 11-Thursday night.
On Thursday morning we may have all come to 12
. work together but I am not _sure. '
g.
13.
Q-Maybe I am not being clear enough.
C '
14 Did -Rick " rep' ort.to the observation center or
\\.
- 15 into the Unit 2 : control room?
y 16.
,A I-don't know where -- we may have had our? trailer 171 se' t up. on Thursday.
-I ~ don ' t know ' --
18
.~
Q
.Do you recall 'seeing him?
d
'19 A
I don't remember seeing.htm at the Unit.2 contro1 1
20 room.
21 Q
Did 'he report ;to. the control room on Friday?
.a-1
'22 A
. I don't recall seeing him.
23 Q'
Do. you recall.Mr, McCabe ~being in the control i
)t A( b) _
2(i room' when :you would-go o.ff shif t : on - 1hursday' night ?
a 7
25 : !
A If I remember correct'1y,, I met him 'somewhere.
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-l' lWhether it was out 'in the -turbine hall or where.it was u,
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=I don ti know.
1 3;
Q So you do recall seeing Ebe - McCabe
'n Thursday i
7-
'A 4
night ?
V 5
A Wednesday or Thursday, I just don't remember the
'- 6 Lday.
7-Q Earlier you said that Collins 'was there in the
-8 control room. - Are you referring ' to' Thursday or Friday when 1
19
. you' referred to John' Collins meeting in the control room?
10 A
I' j ust. don 't. recall what' the days were.
It may 11-
'have been both.
.12 -
Q Getting back to George'sLquestion earlier about
-13 an interface with. NRR, during.the day you were the lead.
U n.)
~14 operations. man on~ site it seems or, it a ppeared on Thursday.
.15
- On Friday I guess the greatest interface sta rted -with~ NRR.
t 16-In the absence ofLany other IE management you were'the 17 person in charge of IE's contingent on site for operatio ns 18 as ' interface with,NRR then?
l
^
19f
.A
.In the contiol room?
e.
20 Q.
Ye s.
,21
.A:
Yes.
I don'th know< what other interfaces there
- 1
~
' were within NRR ontside of the control room, 22 f
n..
v
' 23-Q-
At that' time also, I wo'uld assume that John 24 CollinsJ was the lead ' NRRlman 'on site in the control room?
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Yes.
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- Did -John ever. c'ome to you a'nd a sk 'for feedback.
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L2 a s per plant status ? -
3 A
We worked together 'during some portion of this 4
e.
'0
~
Q So t-here was a harmonious relationship and a i'
/ working relationship between you and John Collins at that
~
7
. particula r time 7:.
~8 A
Rik,ht.
It" wa s l'nfo rma l.
There was nothing 9
fo rmS 1 s et up a s 's uch but. yes,1we' did work' together.
^10
-Q Would.~you s'ay the ' procedural review process,
f H
a formal process;Ea; writing process started.on ~ Friday?
12 A
- Maybe; as. we goi through these not' s. -- Friday, e
M
'I3l Sa turday [o.r. Sunda h.
b!
l 14 j
Q.
Friday being' the day 'of the_ evacuation talk, 15 the first day of the evacuation talk?
A
.A Yes,.I would sa y it - wa s probably Sa turday, i
37'l When did NRR come down ? '. Friday night ?L q
181
-Q NRR was 'down here on Thursday.
. I I9 )
MR. RIVENBARK: 1The: Volmer-team which consisted -
20 of a fe'w people-arrived : on Thursday.. The additional i
21
. contingent with Mr. Denton came on Friday, 22 c
THE WITNESS:
You s ee, we had.no interface with v
23 '
-We ' knew they' were there and that, but l 'them whatsoever.
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they did' not affect what we were doing at the time in the t-25! ; < co nt ro l ' room ' a t' all.
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51 if Procedure ~ rev Lews ' and that, -it will show up 1
somewhere in the notes here when we started shifting from Q
2 monitoring the operations to looking into the procedures,
3 i
4 things of that nature.
5!
MR. SICILIA :
One la st question.
6 BY MR. SICILIA:
7)
Q Getting back to that interface between NRR and 4
d 8 'l IE operations, can you recall, and let's say on Friday, 9 i if, during these informal meetings with Mr. Collins who involv ed.
10 3 was with NRR, were lead HP inspectors also I can't really say one way for sure, nor do I A
11 12)!know that John continuously stayed in the control room, r
13 He may have gone over to the Unit 1 control room to get O
a
$ briefed.
The HP aspects were, in general, handled over 14 15 [
in Unit 1.
16p MR. RIVENBARK:
Off the record.
i Y
17j (Discussion had of f the record. )
i 18 j, BY MR. RIVENBARK:
19,!
Q Wile we were just of f the record, Mr. Baunack, il 20 d you made a statement to the effect that you didn't see n
i
- 2) {
any. problems with people getting information that they a
k 22 h wa nted,
O 23l Would you characterize that again?
I think that is a significant. comment to make for - the record about the 24 O
25l adequacy of the communications;.
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'A'
' ' People in' theccontrol room working on their
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= specific.1. jobs ~, whatever it was, tracking the. size of the 3
7 Lbubble,; reviewing 1 procedures', looking at handling waste
^
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- or-anything like that.
I don't think, 'a t a ny t ime, they 5-had any problems 'getting the information they.needed to do 6'
their-job.-
When did, y' u ;1 eave on 'Ihursday, do' you recall?
7 Q
o s
A.
If I-had L to guess I'.would say 7 :00 o _' clock in -
(
8 s
9' the evening,.f something like that.
Norma lly, I think, we 10-leave around 4 :00.or: 5l:00, and then turned over for a.
11 couple of hours..
i 12 -
'Q
- On Thursday, did yoE go by. the IE center wherever 13 ~
it. wa s ?
14-
~ A-~
Up to the traildr.
-15
. Q.
Up.to the trailer ?
- 16 A
Yes.
- 17. -
Q.
. Were you' debriefed there by whoever.was in the s
18
- tra iler ?
19.
4A~
Yes-.
20L Q
Do you recall 'who was-in the trailer? -
.4 21-
.A.
If 11had to guess I would say Rick I ? ause I g,
22
. th ink.. h e. wa s.
.I know one.dcy there whun we were getting i
~
23
'; settled down ~ and more ~or '1 css ; functioning in an IE 1
24; x capaeity, fI'put down my[ findings in writin'g for that da~'
7 y^
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-i 25 : ; and 'l remember giving ',t$hos'e to ' Rick.
Wha t da y tha t wa s,. I r
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<It was the~ day I wentldown to look at the s
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. timporary hook-up sfor ' transferrier the waste ga s.to the m
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- Q You'.saidlone day. yo~ulgave your findings in writing.
6:
Did -you d_o ;that' more than tone day ?'
3:
7
.A-
.No ;, f j ust. tha to one day;
.I felt it was necessary
,~
_s 8
tha e da y jand - probably-the ~other idays things' were...
[Q Do youlknow wbether or-not anyone kept.a " copy of I
.r 10' what.you wrote?
, I did t't: unf6rtunately.
I gave a copy'to the
- 1.1 AI
- 121..
Lic ens ee.
I gave a copy to 'Garry Miller.
13 Q
'Do your; notes. indicate pretty much what you
-b-4
=
14-wrote?
'15 '
A
.No.
I remember one thing, I recommended ' that-16'
'they :do - a-nitrogen test.on that tempora ry hook-up before i
17 they. t.ried using hot. ga s aga in, e
a la Q
.Would you explain that a little better?.This wa s
~
19 a : nitrogen hook-up on the waste gas: system?
i-
-20
-I Yes, to the containment.
'Ihey were going to.
- 21,
transfer: waste gas back. into _ the containment :to make room g
i
'22
' for' additiona' 1I waste gas in. the waste gas tans. ' They.
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23!f attempted to do' this using-hot. gas', which again led to a 24 -
lsmail: release ~ type bubble.
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r 25-I know: oneioff the recommend,ations"I{had in there.
J omen snyoaanmc uhiry wis 'oto 4 i.b o no o.www;u n.
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'was the ' system be? tested with nitrogen aga in'before' it E '."
2l
.was teste wk.th hot gas..'
.; }A 3
- Ql ' Do you 'know w iether or not that recommendation' 4';
,v-G 4.,
".wa s fo11' owed ?
4 W
- U 5
W.
Yes, they.did follow it:
I tihink that was the 6
second 'or third attempt at using"that.
That.is why. I
- 7 think I was a little' bit concerned at the time.
8 Q
You 'left the : plant ' at. ab~out 7 :00' p.m.- on Thursday.
~
o9' Do you remember 'who repla_ced you 'on that ' Thursday?
10' A
I think Don Havercamp add maybe John Johnson.
Q.
Do you recall briefing them?
12 A
Yes.
13-Q Do you recall what you told them?
l I
14 j
'A No.
Q That was - the day --
li 15 16 }
A Nhatever plant conditions were at the time and I
17 what was going on.
la Q
One of the things-that went onL-that day, of
- 19 course, was the sample.with the high. activity that 'you I
20 ft ta 1ked about ?
I t
21 j A
Yes.
-j st-,
22 ji Q_
Did you discuss the rhigh activity with Mr.
f
~
23 !
.Higgins'that nightJor did he-call you?
i 24 A
I thinld the~ watches were changed around.
I think
- 25 j 'I relieved Higgins after; that first ddy.
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--Higgins, a f ter he returnhd Jfrom the Governor 's office - on
,3-Thursday, called someone fat.the' plant and ~ learned that
~
-} -
there had been a sample taken with high activ'ity and.I 4
- 5 was curious to know.wh' ether.you recall 11f it were you f
< that was makiEg t e ' co'nversatilon with Mr. Higgins or was 6
7 someone else?-
- l.
8 A
-I thinklHiggins and I were traveling together.
9',
He.was in the same car that I wa s.
We were living at the 10
.same motel at that time.
I think I talked to Higgins that
^
_t i.
event'ng,L and 'I think he had' been on TV ea rlier and said 12
. things are pretty well-calmed down.
13l l'~said, "You know, things might be a little u
bit worse than you 'think. "
He was very concerned about that, 15 and I think he called the l Governor -o'r one of the Governor's 16 aides :back that evening.
17 Q
On that. sample, was there some activity level jaj at which --
n A'
I ' don't; even know what-the activity levels' were.
19 All I know is /what$' thenexposure was.at one foot and three 20 i q,
foot from the samplei
!1he sample results came back later.
21 n
22,
.Q.
Knowing what the exposure results were at
'O 1
,p.,
23 f L certain ' distances from'.that sample, was there some dose t
_ 24j, a tj some - dista nee tha t - would.have not concerned - you?
Was J^
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tih$ measuremerit's fat three foot been one-tenth of what g
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they were?
Would that have been'a point of concern?
O 4
A
'We would have been less concerned if they had 3
~ been what you normali.y expect from a primary system or
[6' maybef a little bit higher.
You certainly wouldn't.be as l,
7:
concerned as when they came out to be what' I just found
' them 'to be right' flere,. a hundred' milliliters 78R at one f
-8"
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foot;
- 10 Q
Do you have a feel for what you would normally 11 get from?
12
'A Normally a hundred milliliter sample of 13 primary water you t'on't have to take too much in' the way of b
preca.ut 10 ns.
14.
1 15
'. Q Do you recall whether the normal sample would~ have 16 '.
measured one. R at three foot ?
I p
- 17 A
It would have been well-below 1R at three foot, p
la I.am not' looking for a threshold number but these were i
19 i high.
I 20 Q
I'was just wondering if you arrived at your 21
. opinion based on ~some discussions with the licensee also
- n. [
22 during Thursday afternoon as opposed to looking at a 23 number: a nd : saying, "My, that is high and serious.
It looks 24 Ilke ~ we have a lot of : damage. "
O.
25;l Was thatJarrived' at by.a lot of discussionswith c
neowca sysscoma pwie araw;ca tatt oto inct nomo: wvomiss No. er isevo v
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the licensee or was it just something automatic that came 7i 2
to you?
v 3
A I-don't think anybody had a problem once they 0
(~x 4 ;
got these numbers.
I am sure everyone thought the way K_
l 5!
everybody else thought, these were high, significant core 6 h damage, t
7 i Q.
What did you say it was from your notes?
il a ii A
I have 70 to 80R at one foot for a hundred 9 f milliliter' sample.
io Q
If you had seen 8R at one foot what would you n
11 0 have thought ?
i 12 A
I still would have been concerned.
N j3 {;
Q But 8R at one foot would have concerned you that, 14 ]
" Gee, we have got serious damage"?
c 15 l A
Yes.
16f Q
hbving on to Friday, do you recall when you came 17(.to the plant on Friday s Ig '
A Again, each morning I would say roughly 7 :00 19,
o clock; depending on how difficult it was to get in a nd il 1
20l what time we got to the control room.
7:00, 7:30.
21 i Q
On Friday when you arrived at the control room a
22!
at about 7:30, do you recall who was in the control room
,s 3
23 ] when.you arrived in Unit 2 ?
i 24 A
I think I relieved Jim Higgins, but I am not 4
/
I 25l certain of that.
e
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1
.Q
'I believe that Mr. Higgins was on day shift on
- &)
7If. you think'. about 2
Friday.
I believe -that he was there.'
3 it then, can you think whether he was in 'the control room 4
with. you on Friday?
5 A
No, that 'is why: I am almost _ certain I~ relieved l
him.
I know I was on days for. the entire time I wa s there.
l t
[
7 M ybe he was on that day 'and went to night shift.
Like I I
8 say, you lose complete' track of time.
9 Q
You just don't remember whether he wa s 'in the 10 control' room with you on that day?
I think the record I 11 !
have shows he was in the control room on Friday.
~ 12 A
Oka y.
1 --
i gm 13 l
Q On Friday morning, that-is the morning of the d
l 14 release from the. makeup tank or from the gas decay tank i
15
-that resulted in a recommendation for evacuation to be 16 made by headquarters.
17 A
Was that release the only thing that triggered 18 l it ?
i 19-Q That was one of the triggers.
4
^
20 When you arrived at. the site that morning at 1
21 !
7 :30,' that would have put'.you there at the time 'when the A
i 22 pla nt, I believe, could possibly have been manipulating r.
v^
23
.the tank, checking the relea ses, that sort of thing.
Do
/24 j you recall hearing. discuss ~ ions that morning about opening
.q-
'1 *) "
}25 [the vents. to"the makeup tank?'
4 g
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.I recall that morning spending a lot of time
, /]
~
2l j
going through the prints.
,3-Q Going.through the prints' of what ?'
{
A
,A' Of the waste gas. header.
5
- Q Wic1did you go through the prints with?
mo were i-6'l. you working (with ?
^
7.
A If I remember right and this~ could well be wrong,
-8 but I think11t was Floyd.
9ll,
Mr.. Fl oyd, is the person' who has testified in other,
Q~
places that he vented the tank and, that he notified the
.10-11 i sta te that. he~ wa s venting. the tank.
12,
A I don'.t know'.
I think Chick'.and I were talking 13 later and I read some of Floyd's -testimony somewhere, and p
'14 I didn't recall any of what. he had said at that time nor 15 d id ' Chick.
I don't know.
There.seems to be something-that
~16 I don't remember-but _ yet I-feel I was there at the time 17 and if it would have occurred I would have remembered it.
18 Q
You indicated earlier that if telephone calls 19 had been made to-the outside from the shift supe rvisor 's
~
20 roo'm a t the' time-you were in the plant that you would not
'21
'k'now what was said at ' the time.you were in the control fr.
22 room?1 q-g 23
' A'.
They, could have well made phone calls.that I
'I d
' 23 I ' ; d id n 't. kno'w about.
Tha t c'ould have very. easily ha ppened,
~
h'
. l 251 Q
What :was the p:Jrpose of yourf looking at the : prints
..t
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ic ii..ci o.< od on. n.o mo4.. U.. )..iy yf gb
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60 t
e{
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'on Friday morning?.
2_
- A
' We.were looking for possible release paths --
.3 accidental release paths.
4-Q
. You mea n a leak ? -
-5 A.
Yes, or: a ~ poss ib1'e place for a leak.-
- 6 Q_-
Did you find one?
,x.
7 A
No..
There.were ma ny relief valves' and things. like hat on' the headers; any one of which could have been t
8 9
leaking a little bit.
l 10 Q
Did you see someone go to a panel and - turn a 11 switch that opened a valve?
12 A
No, nor would. I have been that familiar with their 13 -
panels that if someone turned a switch...
\\
U Q
Are you aware,now whether or not the panel for p
15 operating the makeup tank vent is in the control room?
16 A
No.
~ 17
'Q W
. ere you involved in reporting the releases from
! the ga s decay tank to ' headquarters ?
18 d
19 A
No.
20.
Q-To the region?
21 ';
A No.
There were quite a few health-physics a
j
['
22 people there' at the s'ite at this time who.were prethy much '
1: :
23 monitoring 1 rolesses 'and things. of thatD nature.
{~
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o
!,O 24-The ones~ :I remember making a-lot-of preparations 25'
'for was the transfer of the gas: from the waste gas decay.
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1 tank to' the containment.
2 Q
' Do you reca ll when. tha t. wa s ?
3 A
Not wha t t ime z it was.
~
4
_Q Was' it after you had been looking at the prints?
5 A
I think it' was.
They were two different evolu-k tions.
6
)
(.
7 Q
All of this time that you were working in the
-8 control room, Ray Smith is manning the telephones ?
9 A
-Well, Terry Harpster took over fro'm Ray Smith at d
10l some point during the seven days I was there and I don't -
i 11 '
remember ' exactly what' day that was.
I 12 Q
Terry Harpster?
-5 13 A
Ye s.
)
\\
14 Q
How do yo u s pell Ha rps ter ?
P
~ 15 A
H-a-r-p-s-t-e-r.
16.
- MR. SICILIA :
For the r ecord, he is a Region 3 17 inspector, correct ?
. 18 THE WITNESS:
Right.
19
- BY. MR. RIVENBARK
20 Q
When -Mr. ' Ha rpster or Mr. Smith were manning the 21-
' telephones, did'they ever-leave the telephones.and go g '_
\\l,
22 I int'o the U51t 2' control room' to gather _ data ?.
l
-O,:
t (C'
23d
/
.A Ye s.' 'Maybe not: so much Ray beca use it was still i
' [j.
2t- '
the first. day when there was ' more"inf ormat ton coming. in, 1
' 25
- but 'after a.while. the plant was sort of stabled out and t
1
)..
I 3
wos.c.n sten c.caems s cadar.. - 4t i oto viu ao.n wvow ss.s<s. n imo 1
i :.
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______._______.________--__--m
-- ^-
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62 y
f h there wasn't this pressing need for continuous communica-1
('j 2l tions.
v./
4 3'
Q
' you think' back on Wednesday and '1hursday as I
(^;.
4 to whether or not Mr. Smith did some of the taking of the v
5!
data ?
6f A
He may have taken some, but I would say very 7h little.
8 ij Q
Can you recall specifically?
9h A
No.
- i I
10h Q
On Thursday were you aware at all prior to the i
il l'
1 n]
information about the evacuation that there were releases y
ti 12] from the waste gas decay tanks ?
i l
?,
l (O 13j A
Yes.
I had heard that there had been a release.
i
/
d
'~'
l 14 0 I suspect it was during the evening because I don't think I
15l during the day we had a release but I think I heard that 1
16 k there was one and I sort of suspect from discussions that l!
17 ll it happened as a result of trying to drop the pressure on h,
1 18[ the makeup tank.
{
19 Q
'Ihe one you are talking about now, that was the r
.I 20j release on Friday morning?
21,
A Time just sort of melted together.
I really a
m 22 '. don 't know one day f rom a nother.
(
23 Q
You were in the control room on Friday morning 2a ) and while you were in the control room on Friday morning,
('
)
1
/
!I 25 do you recall some discuss ion about an evacuation l
he J N g g ry(,
n g p p is - p g ## y.- )
i 4 g 3 pi _p pgg M, 4 g ypyppigA g,,
ag
+ 9 5.,
63 1 l recommenda t ion ?
2l A
Yes.
The licensee was rather annoyed with that Arnold got on the phone relatively shortly after 3
one.
n
( ')
4 h that.
In fact, I think Gcrry or somebody may have come x._./
5 into the shif t supervisor's office and said, " Wha t in the 6 [ world a re you telling those people?
They a re getting 7l ready to evacuate," or something of that na t ure.
6 l-Q Trying to think back at that pa rticular time,
i 9!
when you were looking at those prints was that after that 10, conversation about the evacuation or before the conversa-0 11 h tion about the evacuation?
O 12ll A
I really can't tell you, I rea lly ca n ' t.
N
,o 13 j.
Q Were you aware at any time during that day that j
f
~
la the utility had reported releases to the state emergency 15 h people?
d 16[
A What the utility was reporting to the state or
- l tl 17 f to us I don't know.
They were not doing that through the la control rooms.
19 MR. RIVENBARK:
Mr. Sicilla, do you have any
- i 20 jI, questions?
21 ]
THE WITNESS:
There was nothing going on in the a
~
]
22 % control room that indicated a major release wa s eminent s
l 23 or anything like that.
24 ';
MR. RIVENBARK:
Do you have any questions ?
(
25l MR. SICILIA :
I would like to clarify a couple N f *W ' 4 % f Y f \\ f' y N N M ( h($Id(k bh M!k h NhIb N Yh N' b I Sh k
IhhIO t
_x_-.__--_
t g.
,1.
64 y
~
>.A e.
7 1-
~ things.
.2-BY MR',' SICILIA:
3 Q
.On 'Ihursday you said that you believe Johnson or
).
~4
. Havercamp relieved you when you were going off shift and 5
Jyou indicated that you briefed them.
You indicated that
- f. '
?
6 you can't actually recall the nature of the briefing or.
74 the substance.
l 8-Can you reca ll where it was - that the briafing
. ti 9-took place?
Was. it' in the control room, at the observation
~
10 center, where?
~
11I
~A
~It wast in the control room.
After that we were-12 debriefed with. Rick in the observation center.
The n
-13 debriefinglwith all. reliefs took place in ' the-' control room.
U 14 7,
Q.
On Friday night,-'and I don' t believe we a sked
.15 -
- you this, was there also a relief and a debriefing?
.16 A
. Ihere wa.s one' every night.
j 17 Q ~
On-Friday night who relieved you?
~
A Like I say,. I don't.' remember.
On Friday, night.
18.
1 e
19
~ I would think it.was Havercamp and John Johnson.
20
. Q.
On Thursday prior to the sample results, was
(?
21 there still a feeling 'on your part that the reactor was a.
<.U 22 rela tively 's table?
A
'Ihis is after the reactor coolant pump was 23 24 started?
(.'
~
j
-25 ;
Q
-Yes.
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~
Yes, it Lwasi not'iinlhad shape.I here was a' sense u
lD l11
~A' f
. ;2 :
- o'firelief after the reactor coolant pump had started, a nd 3
the. heat" removal path was established.
'4 Q
How long did you retain that schse' of relief ?
4 5~
'Did it change a't any time on Thursday?
~ ~
'6-A1
- No~,J it didn't change until.I left, I would say.
1 7-
.Q-
- Did you.still have -a sense of relief, if you 8
will, on Friday?
s 9.
A
~Yes.
.here was bas ically no 'cha nge~ in the ' plant.
'10 he bubble 'was ~ there on Friday.
Is that the day the bubble.
l-11 was - discovered, or was it discovered Thursday?
12
'Q
.Eursday or Friday.
I. persona lly, am not
- 13 particularly sure when the ' bubble was discovered.
- G 14 A
At one time or another this bubble -- the 15 information of this bubble developed and then there were a 16 lot of calculations going on as to the size of the bubble.
17' Ley were varying theE pressure up and down in order to 18 determine the size of the bubble.
The degass ing activity 19 was one of the major activities going on.
Eat would be 20 the first thing coming on the site or somebody. relieving
~ 21 you was' passing on the information as to.what the e
22 =
. estimated size-of the bubble was-at the time.
23 Q
Can 'you recall when you first heard of the i
24 '
. bubble problem ? ~
b'~
25 A
Ley are in my notes here.
I don't have the exact
..o m ~c m - m m i m J n u oo.m s o m.,a m...;o-
..L 8
1 l j
+
r.
i fs 66 c.
4 s
I 4
1 time down.
{
x
- 2' I have a time 'here, 1915, 3
- 29.
Somewhere after 3
. that I have 'down 1300 to '1500 cubic foot bubble.
The e
4;
- bubble wa~s being discussed'somewhere at this time.
5 After this -- well,' a couple of days la t er, ' I 6-thinkl the first one onimy' notes on coming on site' I-have of. thel ubble 875 cubic feet; reduced by one half 7-the siz b
8 indicatinga somewhat successful operation of degassing.
9 Q
Do you know a William' Dornsife?
M;-
10 A
No.
I have no other questions for s
12 Thursday or Friday.
l 13.
THE WITNESS:
I' can't be very s pecific on the D
4' -days iind-whether we a re talking Thursday or Friday or 14 l
15 not.
16 What I have in my notes here where there are 17 times ' and dates, theyla re definite.
What days different 18 people relieved each other and when we weat from one shift 19 to another I don'tL know for sure, 20 MR. RIVENBARK:
I have no further questions at 21 this time. -
' "h
- ['
1 22 :
In' con'clusion, let me say that this is an b-23 i I - ^ ongoing'inv' stigation and although.I have completed the-e u
' b
~
24 j. questions I have.for you today, we ~may need to bring you
'~^
'back for further depositions.-
We will, however, make every 25
~
9 t# 6 % iC h $? 8 NOG R A P**ic 9 6 N W 8C f.,
14 8 3 OLD W LL RO A O, W W O'*8 % &tNG PA* 19680 5
g s
f
,l-a s
4-
> *. l A 1
~
. +
fn.
i 67
~
1 effort to avoid having to :db-s'o'.
i
. I.will now recess this deposition rather than i
3I terminate it.
p I wish to. tha nk you for your candidness and.
4 5
your time with us here today.
6 l(Short. recess. )
7 MR. RIVENBARK:
I would like to note that we are
-I
.s making a Xerox co py. of Mr. Baunack's handwritten annotations 9
that he prepared while he wa s at Three ' Mile Is la nd.
We a rc
.10 going to identify these notes as Baunack Exhibit C, and i
11 these will-be included in our records.
12 (Whereupon, the deposition was concluded at 13 '
11 :50 a.m. )
- O L
14 )
15l CERTIFICATE l
16 I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are-17 contained. fully and accurately in the not'es taken by me on 1
18-the above cause, and that this copy is a correct transcript i
19 l of the same.
i
)
i m1 t. (, -)
' 20 Jo eph(C. Spontare11[, Reporter 21 l No ry Public in and for the e
Co nwealth of Pennsylvania 10 Mon 1cx SrENoCRiPu1C seav1Cs
-23 1 j
My commission expires 24!
July.20, 1981.
n Ns
'25 44C As trM 6 T E N O 6 4 4 P N i. $ENviC E.
14 9 3 Ot o M4 L NO A O a v 0 M i *. 5 ' N G PA 19610
__ --------. -_. - - = - -
-