ML19308C551
| ML19308C551 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 10/30/1979 |
| From: | Framtpon G, Mehler B METROPOLITAN EDISON CO., NRC - NRC THREE MILE ISLAND TASK FORCE |
| To: | |
| References | |
| TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 8001280580 | |
| Download: ML19308C551 (28) | |
Text
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o NUCLC AR REGUL ATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
THREE MILE ISLAND SPECIAL INQUIRY DEPOSITIONS DEPOSITION OF BRIAN ALLEN MEHLER O
Place - Middletown, Pennsylvania
~
Date -
Tuesday, October 30, 1979 Pages 1 - 27
[
Tel phone:
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OfficialReporters 444 Ncrth Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 20001 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE - DAILY 8001280.5 8'o y
CR 7976 1
rca 10/30/79 I
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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In the Matter of:
5 THREE MILE ISLAND SPECIAL INQUIRY DEPOSITION 6
X 7
DEPOSITION OF BRIAN ALLEN MEHLER 8
Trailer #11 9
Three Mile Island Middletown, Pennsylvania 10 Tuesday, 30 October 1979 II 11:00 a.m.
I2 APPE RANCES:
13 GEORGE T.
FRAMPTON, JR.,
ESQ., TMI/NRC Special Inquiry Group s(,)
R. C. HAYNES, TMI/NRC Special Inquiry Group I4 DENNIS P. ALLISON, TMI/NRC Special Inquiry Group CARLA DARISTA, TMI/NRC Special Inquiry Group 15 MATIAS F.
TRAVIESO-DIAZ, ESO., Shaw, Pittman, Potts &
16 Trowbridge, 1800 M Street, N. W.,
Washington, D.
C.
on behalf of Metropolitan Edison Compar 17 18 19 20 21 22 1
23 24 Ace.
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3 Brian Allen Mehler 3
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EXHIBIT IDEITTIFIED 1
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CR 7976 3
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_P _R _O _C _E _E _D _I _N _G _S
()
2 MR. FRAMPTON:
This is a deposition being conducted 3
by the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission's Special Inquiry l
4 Group on Three Mile Island of Mr. Brian Mehler at Three i
5 Mile Island, Pennsylvania, on October 30, 1979.
6 Present in addition to Mr. Mehler are Mr. Diaz, representing 7
Metropolitan Edison Company, and Mr.'Haynes, Mr. Allison, 8
Miss Darista, and Mr. Frampton, all with the NRC's Special 9
Inquiry Group.
10 Ron, would you swear Mr. Mehler?
l II Whereupon, 12 BRIAN ALLEN MEHLER 13 was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 14 was examined and testified as follows:
15 MR. HAYNES:
Please state your full name for 16 the record.
17 ?
THE WITNESS:
My name is Brian Allen Mehler.
il 18 '
EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. FRAMPTON:
l I
20 Q
Mr. Mehler, before we started, I showed you a one-page
~
21 witness notification form that describes our group and the 22 purpose of this interview and your rights in connection 23 with it.
That form also mentions that the transcript of this 24 Ace eaf Reporte,s, Inc.interview that we are doing today may eventually become 25 public information.
Have you read that and do you understand I
i
l' 4
1 it?
o(,
2 A
Yes, I do.
3 Q
You have been interviewed on a number of previous 4
occasions, first, by NRC's I&E investigators.
Have you 5
reviewed a transcript of that I&E interview?
6 A
Yes, I have.
7 Q
To the best of your recollection, were the answers 8
that you gave during that interview substantially accurate?
9 A
Yes.
10 0
In addition, on October 11 of this year, you were 11 interviewed in an unsworn interview by Mr. Haynes and 12 Mr. Allison, and a court reporter was present and made a
<~w 13 transcript.
Have you had a chance to review the transcript
]
14 of that interview on October ll?
15 A
Yes, I have.
16 MR. FRAMPTON:
Let me have the reporter mark as 17 Mehler Exhibit No. 1 a one-page list which appears to be 18 corrections in words and spelling and so forth that you 19 prepared of that transcript.
20 (Mehler Exhibit No. 1 identified.)
21 MR. FRAMPTON:
Showing you that exhibit, did you 22 Prepare those corrections?
23 THE WITNESS:
Yes, I did.
24 BY MR. FRAMPTON:
' Ace Sat Reporters, Inc.
25 Q
With those corrections listed on Mehler Exhibit No.
1, 1
L
5 1
is the transcript that was made of that October 11 interview
()
2 that you have reviewed a substantially accurate account of 3
what you actually said on October 11, during the interview 4
session?
5 A
Yes, it is.
6 Q
In addition to the corrections that you have listed 7
on Mehler Exhibit No. 1, you have prepared a second handwritten 8
Page of corrections that you would like to make with respect 9
to some of the substance of the answers that you gave on 10 October 11, have you not?
11 A
Yes.
12 MR. FRAMPTON:
I would like to ask the reporter 13 to mark this page as Mehler Exhibit No. 2 and ask you whether
,7 s)
LJ 14 that is the list of substantive corrections that you prepared 15 that you would like to make.
16 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
17 MR. FRAMPTON:
Thank you.
18 (Mehler Exhibit No. 2 identified. J 19 MR. FRAMPTON:
You were also interviewed on 20 August 22 by some people from the Senate Subcommittee on 21 Nuclear Regulations, Mr. Arena and Mr. Blush.
You have 22 furnished us with a transcript of that that was made of that 23 interview this morning.
24 I would like to have that marked as Mehler Exhibit No.
3.
Ace S. el Reporters, Inc.
25 (Mehler Exhibit No. 3 identified.)
1
6 I
BY MR. FRAMPTON:
2 O
Ha're you had a chance to review this transcript,
( })
3 Mehler Exhibit Nc.
3, just this morning or recently?
4 A
I read it this morning.
5 0
You read through it this morning?
6 A
Yes.
7 Q
Does it appear to be a substantially accurate account 8
of what you told those people during that interview?
9 A
There are some typographical errors in it.
10 0
But you didn'. Jee any substantial inaccuracies that Il struck you in your review of it this morning?
12 A
No.
Basically, it is correct.
13 Q
In your interview with Mr. Haynes and Mr. Allison 7-V 14 on October 11, I believe that you said that on March 28, 15 when you saw the graph indicating a pressure spike, at some 16 point on that day you came to conclude that there had actually 17 been a pressure excursion in the reactor building; is that 18 correct?
19 A
That is correct.
20 0
Did you conclude that in part because you knew that 21 the spray pumps had come on?
22 A
That's correct.
23 Q
As I understand it, the spray pumps only come on in 24 a coincident, logic arrangement whereby two of the three el Reponen, Inc.
- Ace 25 sensors have to shcw that the pressure actually went above I
7 1
30 PSI; is that correct?
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2 A
The set point's 30.
It can be less than 30, but that v
3 is correct.
4 Q
Do you recall any conversation initially by you or 5
among others when the pressure spike was observed as to 6
whether that might be some kind of electrical transient or f
1 7
something like that?
8 A
On the recorder itself you're talking about?
9 0
In the system somewhere, something that would have 10 caused that spike without actually having a pressure. rise II in the building.
12 A
Looking at the recorder, I thought it could have 13 possibly been an ele @zical thing.
But then looking at the
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tx Id spray pumps, I realized it couldn't have been.
15 Q
Do you remember any discussions about that?
10 A
No, at the time we didn't discuss that.
17 Q
I think you also said that there was an NRC man 18 there to whom you explained what this meant?
I9 A
Yes, there was.
j 20 0
What do you remember about that man?
21 A
I remember when the original thing happened, I was 22 still in the shif t supervisor's office, and there were quite 23 a few people out at the panel.
The reason I left the 24 office was because I had seen the people secure makeuo fel Reporters, Inc.
'Am 25 pumps, and I assumed we had an ES.
So I went out to -- it i
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8 1
would have been console left in the corner where the spray
(/-)
2 pumps were located, also where the pressure recorders are 3
located, and upon going there, I seen the spray pumps running.
4 And I questioned that.
i 5
And.then we looked at.the pressure recorder, and the NRC 6
gentleman was behind us.
7 Q
Standing behind you?
8 A
Well, he followed us out of the office.
9 Q
He had been in the shift supervisor's office?
10 A
Yes.
And I myself, I believe I directed one of the 11 CROs to secure the spray pumps because the pressure was 12 already down.
And then the gentleman asked me why, and I
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13
/
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explained to him the logic of the two out of three spray 14 pumps and there was no need to leave them on since the pressure 15 was down.
And I did not know what caused the pressure spike.
16 Q
'When you say "the gentleman," you're talking about the 17 NRC inspector?
18 A
Right.
19 Q
I think you have said before that you don't remember 20 what his name was?
21 l
A It was a lot of people we talked to on the 28th and 22 l
the 29th and 30th.
23 0
Do you'have a recollection of whether the NRC man
(
24 Ad )hei n.pon.n.qne. had a little notebook or uhether he made note of this?
25 A-I don't believe ae made any notes of it.
I don't i
9 1
believe he had anything with him at the time.
(
)
2 O
Did he seem puz= led by what was going on?
3 A
I don't think he understood what was going on.
4 Q
Do you remember if he inquired more about it other 5
than what you explained to him?
6 A
No, that was it.
7 Q
It appears that at the time the spike occurred there 8
were probably only two NRC people in the Unit two control 9
room that we know about, a reactor inspector named Higgins, 10 Jim Higgins, and a health physics man named Don Neely.
11 Mr. Higgins is a fairly tall, thin fellow in his early 30s.
12 A
This guy was not tall.
r"s 13
()
Q But neither of those names ring a bell?
14 A
Neither one.
I believe I know Neely right now since 15 the accident.
16 Q
From his work here at Three Mile Island?
17 A
Yes.
And it wasn't him.
18 Q
It was not him?
Okay.
19 A
He has grayish hair somewhere in his hair, I think 20 correctly.
21 Q
I'm not sure, but we can find out.
22 A
I thought he had a little gray in it right down around 23 the sideburns.
4 O
But in any event, you recall explaining to the NRC Ace-of Reponm, nc.
25 inspector about what it would take to make the spray pumps 1
1
10 1
go on and what the pressure spike meant?
)
2 A
I explained to him that we had really experienced
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3 a pressure spike because the spray pumps wouldn't have started 4
under a transmitter problem.
S Q
Do you remember therafter talking with a Mr. Chwastyk, 6
Joe Chwastyk about the spike and what might have caused it?
7 A
Sometime later Joe and I did discuss it.
8 0
When you say "later," you mean later in the day?
9 A
I couldn't say if it was ten minutes to an hour 10 later, but both of us were out at the panel, looking at it.
11 And we were both concerned about it, but we did not know what 12 caused the spike.
And hydrogen wasn't mentioned at the time, rw 13
()
we did mention to each other it could have been some kind 14 of chemical reaction, but we didn't know.
15 0
When you say " chemical reaction," you assumed that it 16 was some sort of explosion but you didn' t talk about the 17 possibility of a hydrogen explosion?
18 A
That wasn't mentioned in that discussion at the time.
19 Q
Was there any possible chemical explosion or detonation 20 that you talked about that might have been a possibility?
21 A
We really didn' t know w~ 't could have caused it.
We 22 were just discussing possibilities.
23 0
As far as you remember, the subject of hydrogen f Ace-el Reporters, I.
didn't Come'up?
25 A
Not between us that day.
l I
11 1
Q Do you remember thinking yourself about that as a (v) 2 possibility?
3 A
Not that day.
4 Q
Did you, in your own mind or in your conversation 5
with Mr. Chwastyk, connect the possibility of an explosion 6
with the opening or closing of the PORV block valve?
7 A
That I don't know.
It was associated with that sometime 8
later.
I don't know if it was that day or the next day that 9
that's what could have been the source.
10 0
What do you remember about your conversation with 11 Joe Chwastyk?
Were you guys pretty upset about this, or 12 were you puzzled?
How would you characterize the conversation?
f-13 A
We were both highly concerned and really a little
't 14 scared.
But it happened, it was over with, there was nothing 15 we could do about it anymore; and we were more concerned with 16 trying to get the core stabilized.
17 Q
In your interview on October 11, you talked about 18 receiving an instruction not to start the oil pumps or other 19 electrical equipment that might cause a spark and your 20 response to that.
First of all, I would like to ask you to 21 recount everything you can about that conversation leaving 22 aside the day and time that it may have occurred, and then 23 we'll get to the question of when you think it may have 24 occurred.
Ace 4sI Rmmners, Inc.
I 25 A
At sometime there were instructions given in the shift
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12
'l supervisor's office not to start anything electrical, and at
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2 that particular -- previous to that, I was trying to check out 3
the oil lift system on the reactor coolant pumps, the oil pumps, the backstop pumps, et cetera, for the reactor coolant" 4
5 pumps.
6 Q
Those are pumps that would be necessary --
7 A
To run.
8 Q
-- to run a reactor coolant pump?
9 A
That's correct.
So when the instruction was given 10 not to start any more equipment, I informed them that I have Il already tested them all.
And the comment was made then, 12 Well, then I don't think we have anything left in the building.
13 Now, what day that was, I don't know.
U 14 Q
When you say the instruction came out of the shift 15 supervisor's office, do you remember who was in there at 16 the tiine?
17 A
I believe the instruction came from Gary Miller.
18 Q
From Gary Miller?
19 A
I believe.
20 Q
You pretty much remember it was --
21 A
And I believe I answered him, I have already started 22 the pumps and it's all over with.
23 Q
Do you recall saying that to him?
24 A
Yes.
l Ace 4et Reporters, Inc.
25 Q
So you recall someone saying, Well, if it was going to I
i
13 1
happen, it would have happened already?
(~)
2 A
Yes,-in effect.
v 3
Q Do you recall the substance --
4 A
I don' t remember him mentioning hydrogen at that time.
5
'Since the seven months have gone by, that word enters into 6
every discussion.
7 Q
Do you remember whether you were the one who said 8
that or Gary Miller said that?
9 A
I don't remember.
I don' t believe I did at that time.
10 0
Do you remember whether other people around you were 11 aware of this instruction?
12 A
I believe -- I don't know who all was in at the time.
13 There were other people in the room.
They would have been O
14 aware of the instructions.
15 0
Going to the question of when this instruction and 16 conversation occurred, let me ask you this:
When you were 17 interviewed on October 11, you think, as you have said 18 before we started today, you were fairly clear in your own 19 mind that you thought this happened on March 28th?
20 A
That's correct.
21 Q
What were the things that, in your own recollection, 22 made you think that this was on the 28th?
23 A
Because I' remember starting the lift pumps and backstop
(-
24 Pumps on March 28th.
- Ace %,.e4 Reoorters, Inc.
25 0
. Which would be precedent to starting a reactor coolant I
14 1
pump?
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2 A
That's correct.
And we did start one on the 28th.
~
3 We have also started lift pumps on the 29th, too.
4 Q
Do you remember what it was tnat made it necessary 5
to start a reactor coolant pump on the 29th?
6 A
We didn't. start one that I remember on the 29th, but 7
we were making plans in case the one that was running tripped 8
or malfunctioned for any reason; we would have a backup one 9
available.
10 Q
Do you know what time that was on the 29th from 11 records or other conversations with people?
12 A
No, I don't.
CT 13
(_/
Q When were you in the control room approximately on 14 Thursday, the 29th?
15 A
I believe I was on the swing shift which would have 16 been the 3:00 to 11:00 shift.
17 0
3:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m.?
18 A
Yes. _And I know I arrived somewhat early that day.
19 I don't know if it was 1:00 o' clock, but most of us were 20 working, you know, coming in a couple hours early and staying 21 a couple hours late.
22 O
During that period, would you have been the shift
'13 supervisor in charge of the control room or the panels?
..(~
24
- Acel)if.i Reporters, Inc.A Well --
-25 Q
Was that the way the thing was set up at that time?
I
15 1
A The first three days there were more than one us there.
(
)
2 I was in charge just like the other gentleman that was there, J
3 and I don't know who that would have been at the time.
There 4
was quite a few jobs going on; it was more than one man could 5
handle.
6 0
Since the interview that our group did with you on 7
October 11, as indicated by Mchler Exhibit No.
2, you have 8
become less certain that this instruction and the conversation 9
you had with Mr. Miller was on Wednesday, the 28th.
10 A
That is correct.
11 O
What is it that has caused you to doubt the recollection 12 that you had before?
tS 13
(._f A
I've talked to some other people that were 'here on 14 the 28th, and also thinking back upon it, you know, I cannot 15 be certain that it did happen on the 20th.
16 Q
In talking with other people -- well, let me ask 17 you who you have talked to about it?
18 A
I've talked to Gary Miller, Mike Ross, Joe Chwastyk, 19 Bill Zewe, and none of them recollect that instruction 20 being given on the 28th.
21 Q
Do any of them recollect such an instruction being 22 given on the 29th?
23 A
I don't think they would say specifically that it Ace rol Reporters, Inc.
happened on the 29th either, but I do believe some of them 25 recollect it being given.
I
16 I
Q Do you remember which ones?
(v)
A I think Joe does.
3 0
Any of the other people?
4 A
I don't know.
5 0
In your conversations with them, what is it that 6
they have said that's made you think that your recollection 7
is probably wrong that it was the 28th?
8 A
Well, they would have been in the room the same time 9
I was to hear the instructions, and it seems funny, if I would 10 be the only one that remembered it happening on the 28th when 11 there were other people in the room that don't remember it.
I2 So this is in part conversations with other people O
13 that you have had and in part sort of a general reconstruction fm
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Id of events that's made you think that you're wrong in thinking 15 it was the 28th; is that fair to say?
A That's fair to say, and also, you know, quite a bit I7 happened the 28th.
And I did come back the 29th.
It could 18 have very well been the 29th, and I wouldn't even say for 19 certain it was the 29th right now.
20 Q
It's conceivable it could have been the 30th?
21 I wouldn't want to get definite and say it was --
A 22 you know, I'm just not certain right now which day it was.
23 Would it be fair to say that your own recollection, 1
Q i
24 faulty or not, standing alone, has been that it was the 28th,
- Ace 9et Reporters,Inc.
25 but that in talking to other people, you think that your
17 1
recollection is most likely to be somewhat faulty and it was more likely that it was the 29th?
3 A
That's correct.
4 0
In your conversation with Joe Chwastyk about what the 5
pressure spike could have been, in your conversation with him 6
on Wednesday, did you arrive at any other hypothesis that the 7
two of you agreed might be a realistic one?
8 A
The conversation was only a couple minutes, and 9
we just expressed concern to each other and what the possibility 10 might be; and then we went about our business trying tc get 11 everything stabilized.
12 O
Given the fact that you were pretty concerned, did you 13 g')
(_/
and he talk at all about, let's not broadcast it all over the 14 control room that we actually had an explosion?
Did that 15 come up at all?
16 A
No, that never came up.
In fact, we did inform the 17 people in the office that we did have the pressure spike, 18 and just about everyone in the control room knew it.
19 Q
When you say you informed the people in the office, 20 do you remember who was there at that time?
21 A
I believe Mike Ross and Gary Miller were in there for 22 sure.
23 O
So your recollection is that they both were informed Ace et Reporters, Inc.
that the pressure excursion that indicated on the meter was an 25 actual pressure increase?
18 1
A That's correct.
j 2
Q What about Mr. Kunder, George Kunder?
3 A
I don't remember seeing George.
Through the 28th, 4
Periodically I seen George.
At what specific times, I could 5
not tell you.
6 Q
Both Mr. Miller and Mr. Kunder have told us that their 7
best recollection of the event is that they did not know, 8
March 28th, that there had actually been a pressure spike, 9
that they heard a noise and there was a discussion of what 10 that was, but that neither of them remembers now actually 11 knowing that there was a pressure spike.
Your best 12 recollection is that Mr. Miller and Mr. Ross did know that r's 13 the pressure had actually gone up?
U 14 A
That's correct.
15 MR. FRAMPTON:
Let's go off the record for a 16 moment.
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 BY MR. FRAMPTON:
19 Q
Mr. Mehler, I want to try to track down this NRC 20 man.
See if we can't probe your recollection a little bit 21 about that, and I am referring now to the inspector with 22 whom you had the conversation about the pressure spike.
I 23 think you said before that you didn't think that he was a 24 tall person?
Ace 4of Reporters, Inc.
25 A
That's correct.
I
19 1
Q I think Mr. Higgins is well over six feet and rather
(,
2 thin, sharp face.
You don't think it wo:ld have been him?
3 A
No.
And Neely I know.
4 Q
How did you -- strike that.
Do yor ecall whether PeoP e in the control room were in respirators at the time l
5 6
that happened?
7 A
The time of the discussion, no, we weren't in 8
respirators.
9 Q
Do you remember how you identified him as an 10 NRC person?
11 A
I seen him earlier in the day in the supervisor's 12 office over on the one side, and when he did come into the 73 13 office, he had an NRC hat on.
V 14 Q
U.S. NRC, white hard hat?
15 A
Yes.
16 Q
Were you introduced to him?
17 A
No, I wasn't.
18 Q
You had conversations with him there in the 19 shift supervisor's office?
20 A
The only individual I knew that particular day that 21 was from the NRC by name was Don Haverkamo.
All the other 22 gentlemen there, even Mr. Neely, which I know now, I did not 23 know that particular day.
24 Q
This is on March 28?
Ace Set Reporters, Inc.
25 A
That's correct.
1 I
u
I 20 l
1 Q
You recognised Mr. Haverkamp in the control room?
(,)
2 A
I seen him there in the control room.
That was only 3
periodically.
4 0
He was not the one that you recall speaking to?
5 A
I definitely would have bxmm if it was him.
6 0
Was there anybody else standing there or listening, a party.to this conversation that you had with the inspector?
7 8
A I wouldn't want to say definitely yes.
There's some 9
people I could ask.
10 Q
But as you sit here now, you don't recall another 11 Person being a party to the conversation?
12 A
No, and the conversation, like I said, could have
/~'s 13 only lasted a minute or two, because we were quite concerned V,
14 with what was going on.
15 Q
Do you remember whether there was a control room 16 oPerriar standing there in front of you, for example?
17 A
I think we did have a control room operator over there 18 that secured the pumps, but whether he listened to the 19 conversation, I couldn't tell you that.
20 0
You mentioned that you thought that you had given 21 an instruction to secure the spray pumps?
22 A
Yes, and I know other people that say they gave the 23 instruction also.
24 0
You were not the shift supervisor in charge at that Grat Reporters,Inc.
Ace-25 point, were you?
Or were you, in fact?
I
21 1
A Well, at that time, I was not running the panel.
)
2 i
I believe, if you talk to Joe Chwastyk, he will say he gave 3
the instructions also, and I think Bill Zewe said he gave the 4
instructions.
5 Q
But you also remember giving the instruction?
6 That's your recollection?
7 A
That's correct.
I do know the spray pumps were shut 8
off, and I was standing right there when they were shut off.
9 0
Is there anything else that you can remember about the 10 NRC inspector in terms of height, appearance, age, or anything 11 like that that would help us out?
12 A
It's very hard.
You know, it was seven months ago.
13 7s
(_)
Vaguely, what I can remember, the gentleman was, he was a 14 little taller than me, medium build, and he had dark hair.
15 I didn't turn and ask him what his name was or anything like 16 that, because I didn't think it was necessary.
And at 17 the particular moment when he expressed concern, I explained 18 it to him and that was the end of it.
19 Q
Do you have a recollection of whether he was a 20 younger fellow or older man?
21 A
If I had to guess, you know, it's solely a guess, 22 I would say he would have been in his late 20s or early 30s.
23 0
You're pretty sure this conversation occurred actually Ace el Reporters, Inc.
when the pressure spike happened?
25 A
Right after it, because I know I walked up to the I
i
22 1
1
~
recorder and I showed that to him.
I pointed my finger out, See the line up, see the line down.
I said, that looks like
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3 someone wa' messing with the transmitter.
4 0
- 2ing your conversation with Joe Chwastyk about what 5
could have caused this, was there anybody else who was 6
standing around or participated in that?
7 A
No, it was just Joe and I sometime later.
I would 8
have to estimate the time, I would say maybe half an hour to 9
an hour after it happened.
I walked up and we talked about it, 10 and the conversation may have lasted two to three minutes.
11 You know, we were concerned about it.
12 Q
Do you recall whether the sWbject of a possible 13 73
(_)
hydrogen explosion came up in that particular conversation?
14 A
No, the word " hydrogen" to my knowledge never 15 entered into any conversation until after it came out in the 16 press.
And that was the first time I heard the word hydrogen 17 mentioned.
Now, if you read through my transcripts, that 18 word is mentioned a lot because the transcripts were made after 19 March 30th and everybody knew it was hydrogen.
20 Q
So you don't think it's possible that Joe Chwastyk 21 may have said to you, Gee, it probably couldn't be anything 22 but hydrogen?
23 A
I don't believe he said that.
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O That's inconsistent with your recollection of when 25 that possibility first entered your mind?
I
23 1
A That's correct.
In fact, hydrogen never entered my mind 2
j until I read it in the news media.
3 O
When you reported your conclusions about the pressure 4
spike to the shift supervisor's office, do you remember whether 5
Bill " ewe was there or whether you talked to him about this?
6 A
No, I don't remember.
7 Q
Do you remember anyone else that you think was there in 8
addition to Gary Miller and Mike Ross?
9 A
No, I don't.
There were a lot of people in and out of 10 that office that day.
To say that any specific time these 11 people were there and these people weren't would be very hard.
12 Q
During the day I think you participated in a number of 13 meetings, caucuses with Gary Miller and other senior people ry 6
\\_/
14 in the control room to determine the situation and decide 15 what to do; is that right?
16 A
Yes.
17 Q
After a certain point, there was an NRC inspector 18 who was in the control room area and sometimes participated 19 in these?
20 A
There was always -- well, I shouldn't say there was 21 always.
Somewhere between 9:00 and 10:00 o' clock, the NRC 22 people showed up, and I knew they did park their rear end 23 in the shift supervisor's office.
If they were there during 24 all the discussions, I could not say for a fact.
But most
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25 of the time there was someone there.
I I
24 1
O Your impression is that most of the time when you went I
'I 2
in to have a caucus meeting there was an NRC guy there?
'~
3 A
Yes.
They were standing over on the other side of 4
the room.
5 0
Was there any attempt made to exclude them from 6
listening to these discussions?
7 A
No.
8 Q
Do you ever remember any of the NRC inspectors 9
participating in the conversations, offering views?
10 A
No.
11 Q
They just played a passive role?
12 A
They asked questions in the control room, basically
<^s 13
()
what the temperature is, what the pressure is.
And that's 14 about all they participated in the first two days.
15 Q
Do you remember any further discussion in these 16 meetings about the pressure spike or the spray pumps?
17 A
No.
18 O
Do you remember any discussion in these meetings 19 about in-core thermocouple temperature readings?
20 A
No.
21 Q
Do you remember that that ever came up on March 28th 22 to your knowledge?
23 A
Not to my knowledge.
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O You don't remember anything about that coming to your 25 attention?
25 1
A No.
})
2 Q
Do you remember a discussion about the hot leg 3
temperatures and what they were telling you about the system 4
situation?
5 A
All I can remember from the hot leg temperatures is 6
what I seen up on the panel that they were pegged high and 7
that we knew they were off-scale.
And the T-colds were down 8
off-scale also.
9 Q
Do you remember that being talked about in these 10 meetings?
11 A
No, I don't.
12 Q
Do you remember NRC inspectors asking for, looking 13 at hot leg temperatures during'the day?
s (v) 14 A
They asked for the temperatures on numerous occasions.
15 Q
Incluaing hot leg temperatures?
16 A
Yes.
17 MR. ALLISON:
One last question.
Was there 18 anything else that identified this man as an NRC inspector 19 to you such as an NRC film badge or a visitor's gate badge, 20 something like that?
i 21 THE WITNESS:
No.
22 MR. ALLISON:
Just the hard hat?
1 23 THE WITNESS:
It's very hard to say why I 24 associated him with the NRC except that I assumed, I seen J
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25 him with a hat and later on he came, he was out there.
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1 t
I
i 26 1
didn't look at, you know, his badge or anything because there 2
were many people there.
But he was one of the people that
.(}
3 kept asking questions.
4 MR. ALLISON:
So he was act.'ng like an NRC 5
inspector as well?
6 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
That's what I associated --
7 his questions were, what the T-hots and that were.
And I 8
assumed that that's who he was, and he was going in the 9
office.
We tried to limit the amount of people in the office 10 to just important people.
11 MR. FRAMPTON:
We have no further questions.
12 MR. DIAZ:
I just have one or two.
Going back to 13 the instruction not to start the pumps, could you please tell O
14 us, as best as you can recall, how that instruction was 15 worded?
16 THE WITNESS:
Basically, the way I remember it 17 worded is, the wording was, Do not start any more lift pumps 18 or backstop pumps.
I said, it's too late now, I've tested 19 them_all.
And the guy said, Okay, that means there's nothing 20 there.
The word hydrogen was never mentioned.
21
.MR.
DIA":
Did the instructions say do not start 22 anything electrical?
23 THE WITNESS:. No, it was, they basically dealt with 24
~ the lift pumps _and the backstop pumps.
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25 fUl..DIAZ:
Did they explain at the time or thereafter i
27 1
why.the instructions had been given?
2 THE. WITNESS:
They did not. explain at the time why
(~'j _
s-3 the instructions were given, and I didn't question it.
CR 7976 rea 4
MR. DIAZ:
That's all I have.
.10/30/79
' Okay.
Mr. Mehler, thank you very 5
MR. FRAMPTON:
6 much.
We appreciate your time and your cooperation.
7 Thank you.
8 (Whereupon, at 12:00 noon, the taking of the 9
deposition was concluded.)
10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 l
20 21 l
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