ML19308C535
| ML19308C535 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 08/24/1979 |
| From: | Hebdon F, Kohler J NRC - NRC THREE MILE ISLAND TASK FORCE, NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION III) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 8001280544 | |
| Download: ML19308C535 (87) | |
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_N U.C3 R R E G U L ATO R Y CO MMI S S I O N o
p-IN THE MATTER OF:
TIIREE MILE ISLAND SPECIAL INOUIRY GROUP E00R~0RBML OF JOEL E.
KOliLER I
l Place - Glen Ellyn, Illinois Date -
August 24, 1979 Pages 1 - 86 0
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(:c:) 247-3700 ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
OfficialReporters 444 North Ccpitol Street Weshington. D.C. 20001 8001280g g NATIONWIDE COVERAGE. D AILY w_.
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.c .m c,.- 'about.tV g~iv' 7s;,lial'lfbe thE truth [the -whole'. truth;, Iand 'nothing ; Y ~ j5 i e m <,m J 6 b'ut the truth, iso help:you-God?'> v-WITNESS ~KOHI'ER: es. 7 + 8 Whereupon,. ,o m JOEL"E.i KOHLER? 9 10 % as~ called..as a witness and,'.having been previously duly ~ sworn, s u. ', ~ 11 was'exa. mined and-testified as follows: ~ x + + = ,y, v 1EXMIINATION u -12 _%,f, 'v 7,, - 2 s n 13 d C.-BY'MR. HEBDON P' g:c v
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+ + - i '- - v' ~,. h 'e. -G -()Have you read'an.d-do you, understand'the witness-s y" b. -e."-
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15 ~notificat[on thdthI havetjudt given you?J t! 16 ,' A. ,.Yes. ~,. t
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x g, s i, r .717 N O Do you.have any, questions.or co'mments concerningLit? 4 s .c A.. No'.. ,~ - '11 ~ _ s ~%. ~ ... I " L - - 18 ._j~ ~ a. . dk. 39 uk GM-I 4. n Would.you'please state,your name? ~ .20 A - Joeli.JKohler'. s + ~ 1. .3- ~ d 21' .G chat'is youricurrent occupation? , g L,. e ~ c _ 3 4 -4 ( ~- A, % ' I.amtheresident[inspecto'riaMtheZiongen'rstingj. ,y .g e 1 ~ = ( h. .e s J 23 . y+-
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.-1, 3+ l station. . e- "U ^- m. fifhat[wakyour positioncin early '197$9?. ' ' [_ I Y "2j .G. .q. ' [5 y, ' ~ ,J ! Act federal Reporte,s, Inc. g 25 . R g CI' was a': reactor.) inspector. assigned.:to, the_ ~ y 'sd ' ~ '" t', _~ + 9}q +.- 4 s 1 3 m .7 3 .c.c 3 4 ?' y - M..e N g'N 4'*.-. ? -t .:n e ,=s., 9,,,, ; y, s ,f._ *? _ G, s, _,,, _.,m : ( .w.. 3 ..n% *n, ,5 '3 ,3. t>~.,-_ 4.
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=, l- .P f-3 ._ mte 1-2 1 Reactor Operations and haclear. Support Group'of Region.III. 2 0 How many people reported to you?' /D . Nobody. 3 A. s i,~) 4 0 To whom did you report? 5 A.' ' To.Mr. John Streeter. 6 G ' Would you describe your employment history, 7 including positions held at the MRC? l8 A. .Yes. Betwee'n 1969 and 1970, I was a flight 9 engineer with the Naval Aviation Integrated Logistics Support 10 Center at Patuxent River, Maryland. From 1970 - to 197_2,. I 11 obtained a master's degree-in nuclear engineering at NYU. 12 From 1972 to 1974, I was a. radiological safety engineer in 1) 13 the Accident Analysis Branch in" the rechnical' Review Section 14 of what is now:the NRR in 'Bethesda. 15 In 1974,.I became a reactor inspector in Region III. 16 In 1979,:I became a resident inspector. 17 G At approximately what time in '79 did you become 4 18 a resident inspector?- 19 A. I formally relocated, which -is the,'date I use,, 20 approximately April'l', 1979. 21 0 So about Apri1 lst, you actually physically moved /G 22 to Zion?. t i 23 3.- ~ Yes. 24 0.- What-is your educational -Inckground? ' Ace +*deral Reportersfinc. + 25 A. I have a B.A. in mathematics, an M.E. in' nuclear-I t 5 1 .-4
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~ ~< i. ?5 E -A.: No, my.M.B.A. isig'oing to be from Northwestern. 6 G' Where is.your B.A. fiom? Ai Temple University.. 7 w .8 G' Whah I would like to do is ask.you a~,few questionsf ~ 9 concerning an incident that occurred.at: Davis-Besse:on" Q., -=,2 10 September *24th, 1977.. I'.am particularly interested-in the~.i n 7 11 knowledge or the, understanding that you'had priorftonthe 7,,f-1I s - j7 accident at:TMI.
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p Prior to March 24th,.:1979, whatiknowledge did.you- ~ I t ,M . 3 s have concerning"the incidel.t'that occurred'at.D' avis-Besse oni2-U 14 ~ r yf: M 15 September 24th,.1977? _{"] 's 7 m- ,+ Little more than knowledge th'at there was an,.,; 16 A.
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g-m ,.j7 ' incident, titled the September,24th; 1977; event. wA ,7 bs 18 . G' Could you describe 'a little~ bit what.you :did' 1 now. 4 ~ ^k '9 about-that? I ~, A. I knewfit.was'one of.two events,that'were under -20 scrutiny. I was' not'invoMred in.it;directly.or' indirectly, and '21 ( 4.- ~ only whatd ).I know about it : Gas: hearsay from"inspectorsit:Ta t 22 1 4 . ) 'were' involved i n lit, an,d verytlittle of that; 23 3 When.you cy.under scrutiny,..under scrutiny by- ~ /24 ' Ace-Fe%el Reporters, inck 'd ~ ~ '25-lwhom?- ~~ e s Y s k, r '?. _g 4 O, .. <-,. <. ~. e. L. ,q,.[ b k - f .y e: 4 - -.e v - f.. M ,,_y e xva a .r f.:' .x ? ' -' s' ' ' w#.- ,.<n.y y ' M. ?.,, , ~p, l m 4 ~..i -. J Jl_C f.
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mte'l-4 l 5 A. Mr. Creswell was involved in that event, reviewing 1 2 it. 3 G So you are not aware at all of any details of O 4 the event? 5 A. I am not aware of-the details, other than a very 6 sketchy idea that there was an event in which a relief valve 7 stuck open, and there was apparently some question as to 8 whether there was boiling in the core, and it was reviewed by this office. That is the extent of what I know about it. 9 10 G I would like to ao on, then, and discuss your involvement with some concerns t l$at were raised by Mr. Creswell. i 11 12 What is your professional relationship to O is r-cres* ? -14 A. Nell, at the time he was a member.of the same group 15 that I worked for. He also worked-for Mr!;Streeter. 16 G IIe was in the same section.you were in? A. Yes. However, let me just clarify one thing. He 37 and i worked for Mr. Streeter until,it became apparent that 18 I would'become the resident inspector at. Zion. At that point 19 there was an administrative change made and I' reported to a 2( 11r. Spessard. So there was a time, I would say between 21 February and March of 1979, n which I-physically reported to 22 Mr. Spessard. 23 24 G ngproximately when did it become ispparent chat you Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 would be becominglthe resident inspector at Zion? j 8. g e
7-_ r mta 1-5 6 j A. December 1978, January 1979. 2 G Was this prior to or after the time that you were 3 assigned to investigate the concerns that Mr. Creswell had ~ raised? 4 5 A. I was assigned to investigate the concerns after I 6 was formall; assigned to Zion., 7 G So tras were between positions, then -- 8 A. That's.right. 9 0 -- when you were assigned to investigate the 10 concerns Mr. Creswell had? 11 A That is correct. 12 0 As I. understand it, there are basically two sets (~ 13 of concerns'that Mr. Creswell has raised. One is associated .jg with a September?24th,.1977, incident, where I believe he had 15 some. concerns that the high pressure injection system had been 16 secured ~ prematurely. The other concern, as I understand it, a' N has to do with a concern resulting from~ an incident in ~ j7 18 November of 1977 at Davis-Desse, where the pressurizer level ~ p 39 was lost low. '20 Uhat I 'would like'to do is address the high pressure injection concern ~first. Could you describe to me what knowledg ~ 2tc e y u have of th'at concern? l 22 'A I have none. I can't even concent on that. ' The ?3 g4 first item, securing high pressure inje:iion prematurely,. ~ I Ace-Federat R rport irs, Inc. have-n7 information on that. 25 04 te t t' s .. : 4 ': _' vy %. 1~'. Si A = '
..s mto 1-6 7 ) l 1 O In the ~ course of your investigation of - the concerns 2 Mr.lCreswell raised, he did not raise that at'all as an issue? No. Ilonestly, he did not. ,3 /L ,o \\ ~ then. 4 G' Now 1et's'go 'on to the'other concern, 5 MR. FOLSOM: Excuse me. 6 Did you have'a further comment you wanted to make 7 about that? 8 TIIE WITNESS : I wanted to say that'at-the time I ~ 9 was charged with the job of looking into his concerns, I C $ 10 attempted to give him every chance that I could giye him to ~ 11 tell me what he wanted me to look at. I went out.of my'way 12 to ask him what he wanted me to look at, was there anything s (j ^ 13 clse he wanted'me to look at, was he satisfied with the' scope 14 of the im estigation, as we had decided during this meeting. 15 that we had -- 4 16 BY MR. IIEBDOU: m 17 G By "we" you mean? t s. A. ,Mr. Fosterfand I sat down with Creswell. We had a 18 wm ~ ~ .19 ' nice discussion., s s 20 G-Do you know when'that was, approiciinately?; ~frr .~ l <. i A., It'had to be before.we made our first" trip, and-21 ~ r7' 22 tha t can :' a documented. And I can't pull tha6 out of.the air-t g 23 'righti' now It:is some time;in' February,'maybe January,?before ~ 24 .we made our first trip. .\\ce-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 What I'm trying to say is I-lwas~ aware that there .#p.- 9 b jef - ) g i j 4 ,3
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.T.. ^.: V r a,, - n "= y-2' pp ~ : ' ,\\.n,~', f ya &a ~ ^ s 8 . mto'l-7, ?:.. ~ 3 were a number of things that Mr; Creswell,was concerned about. w l. , ~ 2 + c They' weren't.justilimited stio these two events. He h'ad con- ,y ~3 4< 1 3-ccerns about^1ifting of bhe. core. - Ne. had. some: otlier concerns: q( ' i. s ,m -. o s 4 m -. i 1which escape me;rigitt?now. ^, 4 Y Bdt$they'were it'emized in i memo.M 1 ~ S' 5
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- Do you have a copy-of,that memo?.
~" 6 Ijdo not physically have a. copy. It should be very A.' ~- 7 .e 7' ^ think roster has a copylof it in? Foster's easy?to obtain. 2.I m. .m 4 / 8 records. It was a memo to Mr. Streeter that'-said,'these are- ' =.. y 9 the things tha6*iare. not resolved at the !ststion. ^ ',D a ~ n m y y. f 10 'g A..ppro'xi. mat,ely what date~was the memo?-:$ [ [ f .a r. ,w
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j) y -It was around_-January79. . ?." A. t <, s.,' +*s 9 w ,.,i jj- { _3 ..A, . + m ~ '37 ~ ' I viewed"m,y %b71n theTinvestigation as' one.of. ~ ,s.. m() - 13 .trying-.to, settle;.onewah;ortheotherwhatexactlywasthe. I4 situation-in tMse bitems l on th.e list. After the meetinc~we,, ~ m 15 had..with Creswell,+1t' was'my opinion that there was~.no7w'ayL' u p m 16 ~ s 3 . that-ouE investigat! ion wohld be':al.l-inclus.ive. It would' not.,, m.- m, L.. q. , 17 ~ ~ be the, kin'd of. inve'stigation that' w'ould settle anything, s .c. g [a y . f.,l8 liecau'se the.sebpeI,ashmutuall~y! decided between theithree' Ef - ~ y<r ,o n, e ~ g w s ...,y. cm. .mj9 .s 3 jus,1with iMr.[Cres'welisbeing; the 'de'ciding f actor", was oa ' very V. 1,, ~. ~. a ,g Ng ' i 20 l'imited, scope. 21 ' Do you.know why ; the jcoph 'was ~ liinited?; a .G. y' ? 3 32 [];
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.g.n .o'kay, go. ahead. : ~ m g r s. e x c. me add-one'I'thbr thing ~.t.IflMrRCreswellihad6 [. 3j f6a 24 o '.e 7 g ? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 4 ~ e. + 4 e ~
- 25 saidJ. in tha't -initidlimeeting[. I'want you to look intofthis; a
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1 event,; the September:24th event, the November eV4nt,~ securing / ~ '2 ~high'pressureIinjection,-we'would have done it. That was the ~ .x 3 tpurpose"ofithe meeting., And I.was disappointed with the, items: % pc ~' 9', .'tha t Ie. Mt %. * .3 a f, t a tv cam'e >out of that meetingiwith,1- +- - 5 C 4 c u, ~..- s i .j., ;. ~ '- ( > - ,,s m,, ~ 5 Di Keeping l in rhind.that it is iw.schin my perspective .1 x., s y; ~ to. expand the scope,o'f. the investigatiori, you have; to under. 6 [U 'N g 7 - stand that-tliat' is -n'ot_ really something that I'could do easil'y. s cm .t. ~ A ' I1'i.k not aifishing expe.dition. I kasjbetween jobs.,LI.iw' anted i8 S i g. .x . r ~ , td: do~ a good) job,. and I gave Creswell every[ o'pportun'ity. to ' '9 i g ,s ~ tel1 me khat he wanted $c' to look;at'." ' '~ 3 10 N e u. s;n: v. c, a .I.e j j i p': But'after/he told,me that,<I-was' bound by my own- ~ s v , v. c% .c .t; 12 - u .t~ 7 guidelines >to do that..typ:e of;investigatio,n.hbecause.it would' ~ - = e ~~ , a u. m. ~ - y ~;, ' be mor'e ' time-consuming. th'a'n~ I coh'l'd';ypos"siblyf a f ford'. jy ~ w t ~ ~
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ui H t g J' ,2; yc, m,, 4 14 g Qell,J ~ 42 2 .+ t do youEhavelanyfidea why'he limited 1the scope .4 oM , 15-of the investipation?c Tl ~ e 3 3 'j 16 A. . I can only speculate, and EI'.wanti to. emphasibe ;that r + y . ya i _,[ Q 17 : fth'is is an: opinion't out I believe.th'at Creswell.,had. decided 7 m'
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',N.. 7 4 f. ..g x r w ~ r g i g 19. to-higher 'authori'tidstother than himself, other"than Janybodyj .s m - , e 1 e . ~i sh _ y s i '20 in jthis~ o'f fice ' And:Creswell. told me"specifically several u,.- t ',,. ' ~,., .,p, '3*
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~ a r'^ . 4g time's J haE he had'derk. :inf.or'matidngtb people <other thantin 21 t a, + ,~ + ~ A 22 ithis 'of fice' or;in : this.w.:aoency, or tlat.other' people'_were-n.. ~. G ', v a. a ;,. * ~ ;; j' ,.~ 1 23 a working,' other)pcop,le were looking' at'. j jf 1 ,a_ w,, - q P 24 So I)feelf thatlhe was saving;some^ thingsyfor; ', es- " t,' g 4 i q. r ra.n' oa '1 &. ~., 4 u r.d. m n.pmeni.Inc. ~w ~e' w 25 .} g - pu h ~, higher? visibility n A - - r ..; ~. s m i ~ ^r * -A. e 7 Js. % t ;; : % y'a .b, ' J ' s] s,f.v), 3- ~ g ) - Q ~.,, * ~ .,y'{ Ks
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7 ' l'd i ' ..e - 'l 1 g -l c i l LG/ "Do you?' recall anE?specificsfon'whatihe:said he: .. [ ?- _2 - sent to whom?- ~ s. 'f 3 A. . Well, again,..this is hearsay evidence, but.I 3 _-A a ~~ L 2 ;- u '4 ' recall.him saying that~ he had: sent things,to'Steved!!anauer Sin * ~ - ~ '5
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4 6 G Dogyou recall, did he give yourany indication of. wha't it was tblat he had sent or w at the issues were thatf he-i
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y '8 was addressing with Mr. Ilanauer? a + At the time I-probably, could'rememb.e.r.,,fand2I will 9 A. .g .a 4 10 tell you, I just don't remember'. But ;it"was ' in *generall... w; y y 9 4.,. ' '" < Te r; i~ !. W %..W 11 related to_ Davis-Besse. ' w = v .~. -.12 G' . Do you 1 recall any implications fon his cpart! that; 1.# ., A s he had sent any information to the Commi~ssioners?. k. k I 7 ~ 'M '13 ~m -.- ,n y*R y,,,, A. I.wish I could remeinher :for' sure P I;rfeel;,that. tha t. 14 ..Q. c.C.- ~' 15~ is the impression ~I gott : But., I,. honestlyecan' ti document,it ,g..- ~ ~ J1 e ? feellthat he did ~at one' point saf lie.' hadj 15 with a< statement. I .a..., c e a* C ,17 -a Commissioner L,looldi~ rig' at it, 'butlagain, Ii can' t.( Itlis73usti 0 l ~ .. }. y ' 'Y t
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_ ~ I: just _ can.' t';fecall. fordsure's., J-( 18 an overal1' sense'now. m, r, a. c ~ 31 [.19 ~ a. . g-So then,f if.1)underst'and;.youl correct 1/, when you - 3: ~. .w' - c _., y u. originallyfwere t' asked with?ccinductiiig ithd investi.gation,qy'ou V ~
- 20 a
a: ~ + ~~ ~ ~ ~ ). 21 f el't that Mr. Creswell had cssentiallyf a~ car;tel blanche to,look n. 1 2
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22 into, or: to have you 1ook into =anyf arealthati he.feltineeded'to; ' i i fy, ~ y ,.y /23 be7 investigated, - and' that -af ter!!meetin'g:.with 'him you foun'd' t s w - .~ + - se .t - ~ ' 24 - the scope. Joff.your. inves,SIgationito. be frathek linjitedlbe'cause ; m 'E ' ~ . 'V+ ' ! ( Actr Federal Reporters, Inc. v'- i 25 'of the. issues that helhadfindicated he want'ed?you Jo review?; J1 7 g., g
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A. - .That is exactlyJcorrect. That..is exactly' correct. 3 And I also ~would like to : add 'that nobody in the_ of fice in: anyf' n ' p:,' ~ ~ ~ 4' wayltried to tell m'c[;that L.it^.}was,,only ' those7two items. -P'eople' ~ y 5 ' knew thht:those two items-that we looked at'-- losstof. '6 pressuri::er level ind'ication and undervoltage -- ' they-were- ~ 7 two items that'were in a list of" items,-and expected those / ,. 3, :. iBut no one said those 8 two items,,probably, to be looked into.. 9 were the.only.two items' that._we hadi to ' look into. In 10. So I'fel't' hat'. I,'cki'd liave t!he autihority to bd; t n whatever I wanted to.do. d,- L, r- +- &~.. 11 .a -r 7 + '12 . Q. Who assign'ed yo.u. t.o. conduc t'.the - i n've s tiga tion?.. 'yy r v.s ~;- V 13 A. 1Well, as I re6all,1 the fsituation. was that .. g -
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.Mri"Creswell2had.beh,n iniolved'in the?. review 'of thel a ...~,# .k' ' k* .g Davis,--Be' se; power p.lant ~during sits power ascension program, j,. - 15 s + s,e 7 p,., ~ .,e c 'and,over.an extiended;p.iod of. time had findlly _ not : been able. 4 16 per s A.- ..f w. y 'f' f y; .5 7 '17
- to come to resolutions!ofvitems that are explicated on?this:
1V f H -Q U } ~ < [ G.. m I 7[ memo'that he wrlote.r Mr. - n v. w ~ W; 18 q., x 4 tw r._, during-the course,o,f-histreview,The. t ~ 19 ,fInLadditioni ,, ; e. v. '20 becameL. embroil'6d[withidifferent people as co whatE his : conclu-- ~ e. x . : s l ll " 4 e ' 21. sions1were, what,their conclusions were,4to.the point ~where -- t [~ }d - - l ~ 22 and~these are my observations;--'thatfhe;was at loggerheads t -QJ + ~ .4 with91r. Tambling and.11r.; Knop,-and a. hey were.not working welle l 23 ~ 24 together at'all. They'were not. communicating at all any more. ~ \\ ~ ' Ace-Fedeifat. Reporters, Inc. 4 4 . Do I ou have any f, eel for wlia't" the. basis was ffor; 7 I ii ' ".(0.{y' ~ '([@K. ~ [25 y .~ + g,, ' ',, ',,, g -s '['
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- It;became clear that one'of the things.'the office
~ ~ .. ?... u 7 .could do would be"to looC into these items a~ gain. The office) c 'fel't -- and'it was communicated to me that it was (tr.'Keppler's 8 9 feelingLthat someonwho,had not been familiar with~the plant,- e 10 who was objective, who~was no't involved-inithe day,to-day'- .s> II' ~ operation and had notLgone into;a personality conflict'with s., J 12 any of,'the people involved, should be selected to..look into e m 'Q . l.3 .it,cysomebody who'had' knowledge'in, general but not in1 specific. n 14 No'w,' thcre were not a great deal of people inuthe. 6 ~
- 15. office ~at'thatitime that were a'vailable.
And it;wasfalso, I- ~ + e-16 1 understand,,decid'ed that Mr..Creswell should' no't be'the-onc4 ^ 17 ito? investigate.it, because he was in'volved'in Ethe: iniSial: ' ~ L - m y '18 ' review. . They wanted a - third' pa.i ty ito' look at' it., + a.1 r,. r: Do you-recall who:made,that decision? s 19 -[ R, ~ t 3 - .c 1.- 20 A.- Well, itlwas ' communicated' to methat Mr c Keppler;, 1 .~ -.v, Q 21 had decided that thatlwas the way; to go, that.thereiwould.bek., ~ / 22' an'investigatio'n and the' managers:were charged with finding ani ~ iN E 1 23 ' indiv'idual, a:techni. cal' type andIan investigator. .t ~ ~ 24 -Now,;perhaps hy' ? heifact? tha c IJwaslavailable, ~ ~
- Ace.Federet Reporters, Inc.
( - 7 s 25 .perh'aps sby? the Jfact - tha t ^ Ilwas between 1j obs,.:I 'was also" f' e-s .;;Q.' .+ 6 z* y f- ..,,b .. ' ii} " '^ ' b c-. i ~7 .n f +n, p.. m 'f Lp'/. \\' s ,6 s. g.. - g e. ,;g..ml' , g.', l '.? s t..p.'b ll-e,'., ',,j;'~ {,l' -y?l L ... s -m, 3-y m f 'f '. "[ : M b s 'm ,' f U T. N- ,'S~'"" "s- ^ -;.'q s;n 'y t.. rj ; , ::.p -a,rg y' O .,c ,v a u %i I$I A AN51 Ie M .3.f' I 3'ELfl - ' Ad I E'e/IPEL ! L IN
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~ .r --y 4,1 ' familiar. with pr'essurizeEL water reactors,.I' was recommended 'f "' s ,7 2 -'and'. Ifwas; accepted 'as beinch the technic'al type in-the group. ~ 3 knd I as asked;.ifl1 would participate!in'an. investigation- 'K. g w l gg y 1 a m -3 ~ ',i -and'I' agreed. And>it:wasiMr.- Knop, I?believe, who asked me 5 first. si s-6 0 1Besides your conversations with Mr. Creswell'and 7 Mr.' Foster,"did you. discuss.the purpose-of.the investigation v. _~ w 8 Qith anyone? .m
- 9 think I discussed A.
Well, it is my recollection that I 7 s a 10 the purpose of:t'he inv'e'stigation with a few people,3because r t. i.I wanted to make sure:I. understood what my charterfwas". I. + [
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.i .t .m-12 wanted to understandLif there were any7 underlying:. motives or. ~- h-13 .this'or;that. nI wanted'to get to th_' bottom. And I know I i s [ IN ' discussed.what the[ purpose ofdthe' investigation'is with ,~ .I 5 Streeter. I know'I discussedfit with<Knon. u. 3 g. a 16 0. What did'you finally' decide was'the. purpose?
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..o L.7 '. k i 17 JA. 'Thejpurpose was;to.get-an' objective opinion:without- .,g' , ;x g r 4 m. y - 1. ariy. of ~ the personality [_ coilflictse;that s'eem To Lhave Nept jihtoi' 'O, j1 - 18 1 _a, _ _1 y= g.. e n .,--2 ~.. a.-. p ,u + r r ,. a..:
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-a. 9 -s m- .%.y ,4. s ca x .! 1 23 ' resolution'~'of. specifici reactor. issue's?L_,...# .t g. N.- c, ~. ~ +. e ~,u
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a* * ?.f g s;g yQ ,3; T 'iv iThat -is fccirect... ; Issues;that- ~were on7a document, ;' _ , ' ~ 24 '... c 'e. 3ce-F.ederal Reportert,Linc. -~., '.;13(', ' ~ p - 'i.. + . 1 . a j w (25 "btiE 'that. theyLdidn'te knowthow, rianydf these iti'enis(would? be, 3, ' '~ sp, g,< ,y q
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-. n -- ..2 - s v. a. x . G... y e d '. +._ y .s + v -(., V.__ , _ ~ '( m, _ t -r .m .n s.. ~ + ' 1;14 " Q' I M_. ~mh.d 1-13' ~ eq ~, (.e ~ .j. .-looked.at until3we' sat'down with Creswell. I ~ .r s ..~ e' s BY MR.'llEDDOM: u, e '2 .c 3 0 -Do you.have anv 5 eel for;why you werenkt simply p-taslied with'-1ooking intolall-of theDissues. raisedion the,- s, s s. ~ 4 N W 5 - document, ratherethan allowing Mr..Creswellito. decide-which. issues would be looked intoi-L 6 a ~ A. - ' Well,y it is my _ recollection thatt some of the: items.- 7 ,y 'on the' list were going-to be turned overSto NRRL.for$ resolution,. ~ 8 IArid. They coul'd'not be carried any further in this office. _ m 9 .I. - some of-the items, it was.? felt,Jrequired mor,e depth,- more' 10 w. p. ,7 .m, s informa, tion' before the office.?could decide whether.t., hey'we.re-2 tl 11 n 4 .. d.. resolved or wheths 'we should turn them-over.- to 'tia.shingtonJ for.. 12 p. ig., e a a .u w/ et o [ t .t ;. resoluti' n. v.s,- %/ 13 7.c jiere-theseithe(issues [that you' we e [a'sked with_ ,[ 14 G ,s.. n,- .. o% s 1 - ~ ..,,e t' c '15 investigating?. + 3-q- t - e ,p y., m n +.4 j6 - ; A. - Two'of the issues, two, of the,,' issues were,.rel'ating s y, ~i-
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,.4<,, >m .m , to,'whether'T51edo.Ediso_n hadjtaken their properf,amgtion an.'a-p. 97 c., L %. n tiime,.lygf ashionito; correct these ' items, Tor'.;h'avincj; operated, in[, j8 e, . ~. %-. .. s
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,s o y ~ ?- n a. an unsafe manner for arlong time and.'only when' they got. caught- , y' y 9- ,-...u, .,( .. a:..- a.. v w- ,s.u, 9.. ,r. ~. There were,it, ems;like.that.,.. ;x ..t , -,didlthey do-something aboutcit'p e' y p,- ,7 ny A 20 t. -s / r. z,.' And then'the.re were items?like, is"the(situation --Acan we J 21, m n 9, .7: .c . < a. 7 q. .c ,33 - ' live witlNthe" situation' as l'tiexisits[tihe kloss' ofl pressurizer r ~ 4 .s
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mte 1-14 15 i management in the region here would be to simply have them 2 establish the list of which issues would be investigated, and, 3 even more simply, just provide you with a memo that ) 4 Mr. Creswell had written describing the concerns that he had 5 and said, here, go investigate all of these, rather than 6 sending you to Mr. Creswell and having Mr. Creswell decide 7 which issues would be investigated. 8 A. Now, you think about it. It seems'to me what you 9 just described is a situation where management was trying very 10 hard to satisfy Mr. Creswell. fir. Creswell and-management i 11 iwerc not communicating v'ery well and management, I believe, 12 did n t want[to get into a position -- and this is again /~ i 13 ' speculation -- of saying, this is what the investigation shall 14 'be. '15 They wanted to try to create some kind of thing <16 that would satisfy his concerns and that would be up to him y to de de what the scop.e.was. 98 R Uell, it wo61d seem like if management was concerned 19 about investigating Mr. Creswell's.' concerns, -that they would- ~ .~ 20 - have given you a ' charter 'of, look;irito all of these issues 21 and any:other ones that Mr. Creswell might'b' ring up, rather 22 than ~ simply saying _ to Mr. Creswell: IIere,are two people. Use 'th'em to' investigate what you 'think nceds to be investigated. 23 It so$n'ds like management'was simply [trying,to ~24 Ace-Fiderb lieporters, Inc. ~ 25 placate Mr. - Creswell, ~ rather-than. actually sharing. any';of', 4 7 e k gs f 'es g? + n
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w.- , ' + 4 ,Qg mtel-15 ~ -) ) ^ 16 ) l' his co'ncerns and: feeling that his concerns-needed to be more extensivelylinvestigated. ' e-1, - 2 3 ~ s. f 4 iQ,/. 4 5 6 7 8 9 g: A 10 <, +., -. ~ 11 t .-<,,2, .+ e-4 w.,.- a 4 ~' i 12 s g % ^ ,,,m j . \\J' 13 (.'*. t + v- ]4 e & y s., ;. 6, -,e 3.) t 15 L - p.., ? ,-e g %' 4 t 16 i.. 1- , e . w ~
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mgc 2-2 le f t 'this office'.- y.i q_. 3 3 1 _. ~ ,n O- 'So'Fo. ster d.oes have.a.ecopy?., ~ ..s f 3 Foster ks the-recipierit 'and. holder.ofi he rec 6rds ' , 3, ~ t mD- _: s n + s. inb61ving:thelinvestightion,~and)they dosexist.,.,, 'v ~ 4 [' e 4 .O ' Okay. Welban get those from him then. - - ~ ~ 5 6, .y p myo' ster and I!had to decide where the iriformation ~ ^ .s 3 7 was going.to come from in;orde t tollook,into' these Ewo/ events',, e '.1G and 'we, decided thaC they w"ere. going: to com$ ..e .,,,.from th~e' Toledo 8 m / ~ 9 Edison site,. the corporate of fice,- and Babcock.& -Wilcox -- ,s ~ 10 three places.s'J The Ba'bc' o' c'k & - Wilcox ' in f' ormation would requ' ire ~
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t g M some preparatory le tter'~ goingl.'out, 'because'.~ it isin6t in, our .c n ,,s ~ ~ 12 purviewdnormally-to goi there', so we decided [t'o send.>them andt,. : ~ r 4 u, ~3 g Aj., 13 ~ I contact them in M iting, telling them what ourfconcerns were _q ?- I4 and what type of 'information 'we would like to have. f nd 'that ~ ~ 2 n. .a. A 'l 15 'e-' Went out to them'sometime..,iniJanuary.. -l x ? i i ' ~ 16 ^ So we basically set up.a-meeting"at B&W, approx'im' a' tel'y - i f. < ~ + a -9 17 two meetings 'at the Toledo Edison '. site, land one-at' tihe ' ~ c,
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e Y ~.. I. 18 . corporate' of fice.. We then ~- .well,' a frerseach ;of these -- W 7
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+, ,p 33 l c, ny q;; ^\\ 1 ~ 19 meetings, J a f ter each ;off..these ' trips r;we ' disc'us' sed'.ourf , +;, 2. ... n t r ~,, _ ;, ~. ,20 'in formation : 'what did :weehave,Lwhere were ~we going,' whati ~ - q, q: 4 ? m. 3,- l-21 , types' of informati6nt 7We hadia. great > deal of:documenta'tidn.- ~ ~ e 9 ~ p) " ~ 12 which(Tspent!a?greathdeal of, tim'e dssemblyinginto coheren't?- 7 q o g.. y _ x., w l 23 informatilon > J' ?,+ _1N- ~~,. c . ~L i P ..e-5- ) w .w y,, .9.. r L
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f24 There'were things?that(I tried to-smooth'outuby'getting. ~ L Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. (,' , 7 '~ N ~ Y +- .^ m- ~ .,+ q _ +.. ;;.. ,+>c. _, 7 s " a. ' a,s 1i .: 25 ' differentl documentsit'o[supp; ort differenti things.? :-We hadN_ g./ ~ ,c y x. s. ~ m g -/ .,+ ,a c' ?,q:. ,3 ,,? ,( - = , / q W 4,; -~ y-g j 6 ..s. 4 ~ q _, %. 3 -y .n,- ,u..: .g. 4 ?- u e t e- ,3 .. ~ - r 4 I e 9' 1,, a ; . %l Q f A[A' 'a,' - ' y,. - 1;,- e,' r ' it tep 6 T 4 .B, .L n> 1. r mas , z w :n A. - w ' 3,
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- Cert'ainly, the course of action' you've -described:
~ CR'6516 ~ .m I' s. HEE ~ a. y mgc 2 was, ~ avail'able. to management. They-did not sel'ect Ethat feo,urs'e, ~ f. 3 'and I cantireallyisay.why.,I can't really say. It<might. %f 3.m * ~ s 3 have bee ~n manpowei consbraints. they?were thinkinglof.. '-I,
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^ s ,n 5 - don't know.c? t > ^ y ., ~ ~6 ^ ,;G' sWould you 'de' scribe - th'e'sprocedure myou. followe'diin ~ .a + c . _ conducting your. tin'vestigation? 3 ' r ,a . :4 p -8 g,-S Well',c,we --DFos'ter, myself,1and Creswell -. jointly .4 ~.. ~,a 9 met, and we talked. -We didn' t have a formal 1di,scussion. It: a
- z., 3 10 was a'ch'at.1 2It" lasted \\about'two orithree hours, l'n.which'we
~ ~. +. .ys d-jj 3. -m s 1 r 3 tried to crystaliz'e'what we were going to do in'this:investi-i - :+ .,3 s 12 gation. This is the first thing we did. [ - 4 '-~.-; 3 i : -
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^ a" /. +, - r ,- (,z-13 Out of~that^ chat came two-item's: loss of pres'sur.izer .n. 3 ~, 14 level-indication and undervoltage relay.. Those 'IIwrote u]s in n,. v, r f* 15 longhand, and-Ifbelieve-that I:. told'Mr'.d Streeter thatitihose n 2., - ~ 'u .16 are the ~ two i~tems we 'would4be looking. to; Thenjas,ithe ~ next N.,, - 3-m ~ y . s,.. q . cotfrse, fcistbr and {I decided '- ' l " ~ 1 i ~ pk m,.. w. ;[m e[I 71 17-j ~ y w .4 } I'f; I could interrupt. for tj,ust%..aYsecon'dE,..' Youlsaidi - 18 ".,. f. g-1 w -m. ,.+, r..s p4 ..you. wrote f th,oseM. wo" dp?iri tionghand?. 2 Y6 i nV1 . + 119 . w ~. + y - e. .n, ...n. ~ a, a .y c .m- 'yl vg' k s ~' 20-A." Yes. - 1 ..21 y ' O.. Weretthey ever^ typed? g q ~ 2' ~_, ~ ~ .w. .?. ( f'g ~ - !22 ,[ ~
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{No,7but% hey. do exist, @ecausejost'e'r' has Ia[ copy of : s m,. - v. . a a, ...m >.w 4 y c, +, ' . :,j ; -. - .%J %x,
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. 23' ihemJand -turned them over ~to the Presidential 4 Commission.>' ~ ",w ~. c' =y} ; M 3 a - v. ' 3, c y 9:y,,. i y'; y:_c q f ]24 , ;w ~, t a I .o ..,i 0; . You-don' t' havela;'copyJoffthem?T l 7., j - v ' Ace-Federal fleporw,s, Inc. l 4,l g ' 4' J j y'. g. % is 25 , l
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' YIL turned Eall my records'over to Foster;.before.:I' t .%a y s 7,m. - z sf ^ .y. ..*.m , >. m, a s 5 .z a w-a
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Ntsomepoint}in+ 7 'x 2 itime, Foster 'and IL came. to. ?.a. coherent ' idea 'on the ' two' issuesE-- w .s.. - c 3 .. 3 0 a coherent unders'tanding of what} transpirsd, what#the. licensee - lR _', 1 y_, iQ .3 ~ ^ 4- ~did p what the vendor.did",1what' this office : did, what NRR[did, O ? e, ~-.. .w s. w + ~ 5 'a'nd I2put hogether.;these. things? Foster and I,putItogetheri' ~ 6 .these~ things. 7 'Now I personally 'am. of the opinion that I do not operate' 1 8 good in a vacuum. : Foster is"not a technical tiype. :I can and 'he 'can tell me if~ they. are logicalf 9 bounce ideas bff him, 10 or ndt. But he.really can '.t give -me any critical _ un'derstanding". y ,v, 7- ~. 11' I needed a straw man.. I '. nee'ded some. peer. rediew'.'I Irwanted 12 to do a good-job,-and I sought to get peer rdview by stablish-: .p u ~2 -.m.
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n... c, -; m. U 13 ing a meeting before' the investigation closed; outsin which L-a c s,w a :: s E ~ .n a y 5. ,.s. '14 we' could present what we had at! the tiime.to; a,7 group "o.f'., people ~ e. g...
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15 and let the group of. people there.tell^ us we sover16oked /some-y .e .s 16 thing or we didn't overlook 2 something for.this[is[9r.eng 'or this-1l s as ~ i, w. :,', f,,,,, g 4 7 [J '17 is nottwrong; y..
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.19 'of the investigationa between ' Foster and mys' elf, S treet, ' ' i s- .y u : y.. - e c i 20 Spessard, Tambli,ng;'Creswell, Mr.;.Noreli-,", :WeTg._,into'_a;7 - j .v us? ot ,y 7 r,y ' p meeting ~where'welhad charts'made-up'.;.We had. findings - 7what v.
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' f).. 22 we-hadjattthisfp6 int,0what*welthought where we(were going ^,. y e9 3 [- and.1,wbust dpened 'ibiup tio the group'.. We\\hAd-a~ big discussi6n- ? 123 g'4 - vt. -V-1 s (-
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- BEfore wejgo~'inEol.the conclusi'onsf.of the meetidg[,'.
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.mgc 2 4~f [ 41 I',woulckp~Jjust,likeLto.cladify.aicouple of issues, I y 2 - Was your,Junderstanding of the issues.that you were. ' 4 trying t[o look into-the question'of the undervolta.ge relay _ ~ - 3 s <O. and the ' low lpressuriz$r level? Was "it inorena functiSn of the U 4 -of techdical, content;offthe ' issue's,. or was - it more - a function 5 y u. 6 swho',did what and w en? h x 7 ' ~ A. .Well, it has,been stated.that.our.. purview was the ) .C n . J 2. timeliness ' of-the investigation. -AndLthat;has been stated, 8 c. because I myself will? not say that. I'm an expert in the'rmal'- ~ 9 s G-10 hydraulics. Whatever'I know, I pick,up on the cuff." But 2-.. ;,, wh'at I can'tell you af terSw'orking in this business.nfor six 4 y 11 .,1 + ,, y years is 'whether'what they' are telling ' me sounds factual' or , 12 9 .13 .not. ~ n. ~. 14 I certai.nly,co.u'id.,"have said(dubng the investigation if.. M 15 .-IIfound an item thdtIdid n'ot make sense'.to me, I fS.tr fCJ 4-f A Y, ~ t4. . 4 7 t 4-%.t absoluhelyididnotjmake;any, sense,.thatB&Wmadea' statement a, _16 e r -, a _5.,, t m+ about the,high pressuret injhetion. system thatidid,nbt malie? 17. w.9 e a 18 -sense-torme,;that would h, ave been-an^ issue. .c.e w Q 3, ~ .e _(So toithe 'eitent that I amiabletto 'conipreNehd;whatl L 19 x .e + 3. . 20 - people ' telli me"and say,"y'es, D.that-is' eithe r l right or ' wrong, t ;. ~ e. .4 .n cannot comment on'.whethef a ther, mal hy'draulic : analysis [ j _ 21 but Ir
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~JIt wasione of timelinessiand one of' coherence.. 3 j, p y < m w 4 . a .u7, Y l 24 ,g6 Byltimeliness, what~is the. basis for this: u i 1 ^ [ f Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. A-y 25 determination of'. ti.imeliness? L ~ s F-L 4 g / A Y p ' vl a L%. y. +
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q J'y >sv.- s Ll ? Al If'an event o'ccurs at_a site, any site, there are 4 mgc 2-5. x m. Y 2I certain things that have to be done-. +9 '3 0 Ok'ay. + g Firstlof alk.,,if. fit is ayvery simple item like a? 4 A. 5 p'iecero'f equipment ' that! fails or a fuse that blows, ; younare 6 looking to see that the. licensee ~ writes work requests,--fixes 7 the thing.. If it :is a piece ' of. e,quipmedt,; thatL he takes. it ~ 4 s,c. 8 out of service properly.. Basically, th'at.he~follows his:- ~ ~ ~ that he"follows,his work request procedures,'that 9 tech spees,, he gets' the piece or. thing fixed. Thb,se are th'e Simple.ones:. ~ 10 11 If 'something.happens at ~a site that you can't cle.asify; 12 in the. tech specs, there,are three. ' seismic restraints missing 13 today.at a. station for-instance.and-they discovdr that,.well; 14 what'do they do about'it?. Do.Ithey-just sit around until.you s c 15 find it? Or do they. ' write 'a deviation right?awa^y the day Q - 1 ~ They h' ave a. neeting on their ' site.- (They-h 16 they find it. ' ^ ~ 17. ~ document it. They'say,-okay, we found three hangersc lWe're ~ ' 18 ' going to have.to declare the' system inoperable
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~ ~\\ 19 lookingi for the[licens'ee[to Lt'ake the proper. acti6n when he: J ~~: ~ 20 finds /outJabout.it!. That+ isc very, -very ;important. ' l i v ~ t. ' ) 21 0: Okay. [i.,. i. Now whatiis.the basis in the regulation.
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~ J.9 ;. 7 { '( _ ~ N /' 22 for'this= requirement? e ,' As Jf ar; as ~ I'm concerned, and.I 'can only speake right" E,1 ~ ^23 /A.) - 'y ^ .;24 lnosfor; the Zion, stati6nnor iEdison ~-inngeneral., ~ but I -believe ;.. w Ace-Federal Reporteh[Ib, ~
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.g ~ ,. (25 the tech specs L 'in~- generallare inodeled _in this;way. ThereLis' ~ n c;..n b h ,' L i,( mc ~ ' y ' 'd,
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.L %.W,,, -,.' .t g i ' -<. g 229 .m e m 4 4 a-a .a s s 3. I [ 4 .mgc 2-.6. 9 r l-d(st5thmentLin mos't-tech specs.'that says'upon your' discovery i2 [of systems or items or components 'that. do.not meet the - 1 ~ q 3 . assumptions that ; w'ere 'made injthe safety analysis',,you have 10 ' 4 'to prompt'ly> report ' these items.tosthe' Commission 9ithin 24 ~ 4 ~ 1 ~ S ho. urt. 2 ~ 6 .G - Okay. HNowiyour concern was what.roleidid Part.2]' y. 7 to 10 CFR.have to do-with yourr. analysis. ~ .x
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s ~ . s; 8 A. . Pell Part--21'doesn't even get i~nto it. If they-s 9 follow the _ tech ? specs, you're~ going' to, ge't that kind of- _ 3 ~ .a . 10 notification right from the technical specification. - 'Il - Okay. our cbnceh then, as I: understand ithwas'. l... 12 ~ - , ~ n t related to Part 21 but was related4to whether they ~ ., ~ v ,.-13 3; op"X-U complied with the" tech specs?.y.[ r-
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CWhether - upori t[ heir 'discoveiy,of L an item - thaE ?- 14 A. ~ u.a . w;;. -- ~ u 15 appeared '. to? be ~ outside. the scopef of their analysis',. upon; s. , ;s _. .w ~ ?i6 their disco.very of it,, th[.ey;took' the proper: action twithin ' 7 /. %, ~. ', 7_ x
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,r 17 'their'.t6chnical 'sp'ecificatigns'. '.;A'nd ' also I will e'ven be < .L & -N x .~- 18 broader' than.:thati --twi;t.hin the $ guidelines df good' engineering i 1." .+ f, q.+ np '.,~ x (. 19
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4.' s .e _u. -c c gi) ,BY'MR.'FOLSOM: f. ',T 5 1 a.- s i
- 0 And'promptly?-
s 21 m 4 22 A. Ahd promptly. That'i right.1 '7.mt bi O 3e w, * -?(' ~.
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~ A"T. ['... That-timeliness.'means promptly and:within -24 : hours,s 3 e .124 is,that the' guide?~ ~ b?^C , y; s '..~r>.. _'+_ ' Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. ~ ,iV ~;4 7 9: [25 n A. .IWell,?that" specific classification is"a--24ihour- ~ g. e, ij _-n y, 6
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. Q* 1 -Q,," 'Y',,y 5$ g + ~4 _. 2 31 ' . p..s s ,r. y o x. , + on '. 't L,- ~ j,mgc 2-7 1 n'o'tificati.1 .{I - ", ~ ~' s r, .y x -.. t ._- ~..t m ~ J '2 7 Gi And ' you;can ' t exist Ein that._ situation ' for very 7gf m 4 j 2 t y s ' 4 3 .long.. Yo.u,cari' t sit there 'for six months f and' do nothing .y n .~ ~> a 4 about'lt..* ~a n .s 5 BY MR..HEBD'ON:, = ? 6 [G Okay. The issue that I think we're most' concerned e + 4 ^ .anx ;- s a 4 t- .7.about, because-it is the,one'that is.most' relevant'to TMI', ~ n ?'.. u e. a ?
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w _ Ts l.the l'ssue',of 6the pressuriz"erClevel. .m - e 8 Now.what was it?. t 9 What was the issue ~that Mr. Creswell perceived they~ should a 10 have been analyzing promptly? 11-J A.: 1Well, they had Ja cooldown -. transient in ' November'.,- 4 l 12 This is what.'we looked'intol-- which resulted in theheibeing ~ 4 3 x v ,9 + f* e-a a < 13 no indicated level,in the" pressurizer. Now,.totake the. ? v. c .r >y ( ,4, devil's advocateipoint. of tview, thefefo're Jthe. pfe,ssurizera,is, 14 w 15 . o. _k' 'y o a. 7" em.p ty. n. t s. eu .i. -s 16 ,y G. Now.- they ; sotifie'd the, Co' mmi'ssion, ! ; hey: notifi'ed J J l t m.. w. + ~c the Region, of3the~ incident M :..Is ' that: correct?f C. ^") :. ';f; 3 - 17_ m .+ !n 6 ~ s i.. l m18I . A. ' Yes. [* Q,x i ((,; t cc: 'v ,f ^ ^" 3y J g. / ',' L. ' yr 19: gi Hv/ga:; GTheygprovided?indicatio~n.C The,ygprovided,.I would.w' u. t' 4 e sa.<. s n. x s 4; ,x w.
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m'< <c'.. ~l :, prin.toutsrif n,otithe grapb ;thatith,eyiprepared as part:of' - ?' - f). ?22 9 1 t 3 ,. v.. s = y&, M.c.., J g,y y. o n m - ^ t23 their"LER.--. th'atithe+ p;ressurizer,had -'gone1off ~scaleilow? .m: W 4 w. ,3 L-+ y _.y .).. s ~ ~ ~
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n 3. i s a.e ~ N4, ~y o e. .v mge 2-8 1 O. - 'So[the-Commission.was notifiedlof'the. fact that ~ theyhad"lostpressurizerlevel[ln~that1 transient. Assuming-2 "3 that that.is true, what didn.'t they do-that they were supposed J} -y 4 to? 3 7, 5 A. Well,.do you want me to get into the investigation 6.as to whatTwe foun,d or.wh5t Creswell thought they ~ didn' to do? ~ Well,'both, real1y,5because "I still. haven' t entirely ~ 7. G'- s. .figuredoutwhat.ithwascallaE[out. -I. keep hearing _ people say,' } 8 9 well, pressurizer level went-off' scale low. And the answer 4 7 10 -I keep ~ getting, or th~e answer 4 keep coming up with: in-my,own l.1 mind.is:-so what?.
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i ~ -s ,T x. o. 12 A. .It.is only:,_a ' "so wha.t";if - % ell, I guess I 'should = v ~ .hs 'go back.,Creswell's position;.. a=is that'they~ drained the 13 y. 14 pressurizer and that they had-voidsfins the primary coolant; u -; f. 15
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He :. looked at the evdntO. [Hel saici tyou-can ' thell me. u... - p. ~ 16 ~ there is any water."injour pressurizer! ~ You cannot tell~ m,e'., ~ ~
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" ~ .., ~ 4 17 that. You don't;have any in'diciti.on-that.there;is'. 'i r .g ~> ^ 2 a a l8 7[0.?' -okay?.:-Let's,say,>I!. lake.- given;that;the ~ a q i19 pressurizer level drained. ,s, s, e s I 'stilligst -.back Sto qso whdt".1"a,:: s:e : - s L 20 iIs it'.a safety concern?!! T ' ..;; N ^ I I+' ~ 4 3 9. l' l.. l 21- ~ A. It is Creswell'.s opinion thatythey;had not proved: + .y . 1 , W)a. t-b22 that item onJthe Davis-Besse.dockett JWhen".he'beganflooking- ~ l'Q-v s .c L 23 at thislitem;"he' ~ said provide <me with an'analysi,sf-tocshowi:, ~ 4.. a. y. 7 , f ' ei f- '~'~; f s ~ 24 me ~ what. th'e si'tuation-was ' :,:Wh5re was'lthe level?J,I'say/that -. ~ ~. u 1-. l,, Am Federal Reporters. Inc. f l N s I /F -1 25 ~you canj have xvoi' ding' in f theEcore t 'Thatf youL' re going / tci,have ~ l ,. e~ g - i' 7
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o~ ,'l' m* o ...b ^ ," 9 } ' (. :' es s.<g .f 8. . separateEissue, or' a"separat'e concern._ 7 - W ~ -~ i s9 'A. If..in' fact"it is. e . true.th'at i't.tooksthem a.long.; ~ 10 tim'e.e.p s, '.J - / nc r c.. _ 1; _ . =., c e y 11. , 'That.s.correc t, but that is anoth.er question 2 - There . H. jG M'
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-.v ,a,-- m ..(, ;. 1 - 21, 7 1Whatt was your can'lusionjconcerningjwhether.or1not- .y,~ c a. s, .s, j .s-s m M i ~22 _it;wasfiri$ fact' a safetyi problem?.. 9 'L - /;- 1 .. \\" i. c,. w' t u . -; t; . c.s S , 3 ..y e ~ '." 2 3 -,.a -r y 3 L., ,. +., i ~ ~ y- .s . +. ~
- A!M,v]iy' concitision, wasitha.t-unde.r'thefworst situation, -
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[ -7; _ t Vjd ' ' t s~/f i ~ 4. U.' ' [W.. " Ace' Federal Reporters,~lnc. that: event'could(notto'ccur githout.a;depr"ess~rizatio. m...ss -+ s .c. t
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~, ..e u .c 2. @res'sure injection' syst6n, at which : time the high pressure ze s. g3 injection fsyst.em wotild initiatef and it: would re. fill;. and.that 1 e. 4 J .a ~,y. n.,. '4 that: particular sequence which I just de' cribed..was' borne' out s w s... m. 5 in reality at Three-Mile ' Island. And I had.a copy ofh... exactly,. o6 that type of situahio.ni a < review byf the Region I inspector.~o'ff ~ ~ q, r. .7 ,y c + I that: event 1at 3Three' Mile Island,2 duringdour; startup.n n.? ' + .y
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r..a ~- +., ~ v r. . J h. ~< s s n.- w g. x. ... n e,.., +r-se 8 9 Now, this is the eventFthat: occurred,nI belie,ve,i 1 s. z ~ !around. April of '78 at.Three' Mile, Island?' 't ,T. %9 a,.1 y 3, .s, c s 10 A. Q., I believe so. but aga. in,J I; would ha. ve to ?look;at ~ .+, i s (tho LFNq,'jIth;as bcen too long. 'I had'a copy! I wds ins .' a ~ r, p N ,11 f ,.% +,. g
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~. . +. R . 12. < ' receip trof the".revie,w. ~I had spoken'to'.the; Region I.in.spector! J'. r 4% . A. a ~..e ( 4,- r p ahdlthe ~revieN ashhs that f r onbreabon Ir another,. Ithe' '[ I 13 t s _, 3 . x. ,r., .e ' K14 primaryicool' nt systeEi deprds'surized, .the pressurizerfindi-a . t ' e,. e
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. +, e., 2 conclusi6n 'was ~that, Jon :the technical merits' of' the issue, m c. y_ou :didn' t. feel ' the pressurizerswould edp:ty during this,.' type. .., e . Q., 3 .( x.). c N '4 of,.a transienc? I'did not-feel that there would be..a probldm.of '5 A. 6 voiding, because : thel-high. pressur'e ' injection; system would be 7 available to refi-ll in the worst; case. m e . %, y ;- a-8 Q. So then,;did you decide that the%pressurizeriwould,
- - a,;
+ l' 9 or would not empty?. .s,s .e. ,s. A y A.!. .Itonlywilbempty. in b e. worst',* wor'st' case.* Ini^ ~10~ 4.,. .'u s. n . they.idi'd" noti - m',. r. .the two' events'thatJDavis-Besse submittad.f.. II a , w, eppty, even though the indication:was'd5wnlsc' ale.- It so. happens - l ?i ~ 1 - 12 j +,
- m. -
r u>, .e .c m that, the tap is so'many' inches from theibottom. Andcthey-. T ' ~ J , (_)
- Tj.'
13 w 3 the' provid'ed an analysis 'bise'd on $hetsize';of th'at volume, ~? 14 i,i s. y.. - c Q W,. 15 fldslate' of. the' makeup, pumps, J that' there was _ water in the- - r
- . 4
.g- .. 6 . s.. '. 16 pressurizere, . s-s.
- 7 t
o.3 % _.e,,. a ;u..._. m c v 3.. -,2 , So then,; as : I understand./it, r you.; concluded Cthait ' . A 17 O. = <+ ... f.L ~ . x. + 'k*,- p%. e ~ ,.f m
- ?..
.,..r 1 m .v ~-L. nsf.h'e' pressuriz' er; ~wouldfempty:,ju.butythat 5 (3 ~ 18, j under < worst.;conditio. ? t s m a %it would:not bsta;seribuscproblem,-b;ec'ause.o'f~the facto thatT a s w 19 1 o e m.4 c s g 2 t. d w i .- g i. >, y w-g,,
- c.. e,,
~- l th'c high pressure ihjectioh wSuldicom6Tohiand-refillithe" c 20 3 ~ . p:. u s w f p~, ~
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.~ ..& m s "21 ~. sy s. tem?./; x + ~ ~, -v d mi ~,.;;e + w a ght' add; ons *thingi and' thi:s. might'!be fa'.i - . H. n. e '. .. 22 ,. : AJ 1, Ayes. e)^ m w-- c:. 7,.,. - + - m -t ~^ .g. "er,. e - ' 4
- e. P '
. p g, j. time Jto-addf it, becatise'now w'e.;can slook. back in f N i ' 4' ..g..- g h - 4 a ..['**# erfect .q 23 q, y r3 3g. ~.: - 1i* ~,. ihindsighh, :I'neve.rJasked she'. question,iwhatcl,fJthey.shutrof'f' ~ ,, ~ ,. i 4 ,,>M., a;i = 24 m .'r , 4 ~ e ^#F ene n.ponm, w...,',, a
- ~.
f. ^ 25, /the1high-. pressure 3 injection system. L neveraasked'thats 4.- v .r ^ ~ , t.n.' [.. T'.
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ne v 1 i n;. m m,.. g..,. .c r mto 3-4' 30 m 4 =' jguest'ionq 'I assumed that the' high; pressure ? injection system i. .s. f -+- ,9 w... would;be" operable tand Lit would function anil it woul'dl maintain ' ~ 2 ~ 1 ), ~h' .s 9/ h ' 7 3 "% q e>. 3 corescoverage., m - SI'did n't ask"at the, time,lwhat:if they shut'it o ^: i n. y&. ,x s .e -4 e c ~G.> o w -~ ~ ff. e I :didn ' tf-- JI (willtell you th.e trutli. J I 'didn' t even 4 ,j -*5' ';think ab'out lY.' i ~ .s s, 6 o I.was geared into - 'and'maybe.I a'm critii ri.fing w c ..s. 7 .myselfenow' Ebut..I was g.ared into ECCS initiates,. It,.s: (;. y ^ _S Q' sd "4 1-.. 7c + ,8 Joperable, iti.refil.ls,.:and Joverything;.-is fine.. s,- + e s. .. - z .9 5 ~ ~ . 4. W: Would.it,have?beeninormdl/ practi,ce l.in? the. i eview i t<
- o
\\ n: ?j 1 rF. 9, ,, A ^ ' W s N^ ,.;_r j -p ,10 of an-incid.ent' or in. their~evieii of ania.nalysi,s 1of an incidenti v, s. ~. e_,. .a 1I toYincl'ud a consideration sUch 'as, !what if tbohdra' tor Lsh"uts ~ T 12 . o f f: UPI? "
- 3. t-,-
u: N ~ ~,, p a p p,: _4 [#'N - / ,(4 f QI T I .13 At Perhaps.,' an,d terhaps, iflthere:,was ~a"sec6nd or' ' J T s .s 07 e .$<s e. a -7 4 -. 0, , 3 ~14 third person ~ on the in,.vestigating. team hehwould.'have. asked t t!
- 1
,.o.. s. i L9 e .that questionJand -I would have said i boy.?3., tkis.d.fgoodi 15 tha'
- u... '
n.., C.,. + ] ul6 . question. y, F - {. sy. p-u.1 l .r .v q ,~; ~ Wh'at is, the;" normal uracti,ce. to ask : thatn kind of' ~r ; +. .a 17 N. -Q. '. :.w. m N. y s< m. ..e k.. ;
- c. >
z . =~ _, .m 4 -c 7 a 18 ques tio.n? . I' y T pq_ e . c,,. '. kk.. ~ 5, -e. ( l s I-can;o,nly tell you 'I jnly c,know. wha,t 2 I,kn$g3ow4andfI, f19 A. se - q. p p .c' . J ,t , m ~# v. (20 just didn' tit [hink,: of iti .,f * ^ n. + c,. 7 . 1 C- ?. 5 * ? ~ .,s BY MR'.1FOLSOM: 21 . 1 .% ',, n, #W5~ O 1 ~, 3',w; 4 sy '. ' l: ;., l w s; ,.n
- lar,
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- 22 4,',[Let:mecinterruptfjustra.:second; -
2 -- ~ o s EV. ., c. n. n.. + .~ r n.: ++, J .,e r x. .s. .'YouSworen't in N.tigating the '. September # ' 7.7 e'pis~odei?: g[us <,.,,1... ' i 5 23 '- i
- +7 v
~,,, I, '1 'J ~ +, ~ .i 124 +.A."' No..'. - ' g,- .c m u .m, e " Ace. Federal N.eh:o,rters. Inc. g '9 ~J.t I; ',.,'~, Q; w .g... ., 47 -,- W, ~% *,, d' 4 ~, f..25 C.,. N.f..~.,,.-AreJyou'famillah with the;.Septemb.er 22nd. episode? *,. 1 o / _7 1 .c r f ' * "-e '- .w ,- y % ~ ,J, T .7,.,' :, .l M: -y y- - e .. l ,' h.,n %,_. .,a " L. s ;>*l[}. L. 9 ,'(, , Q _. - (
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~ mt'i 3-5 31 ~ r 1-A. I wa'sn't. .2 0 Did.you k ow --;uell, you wou'1dn' t have known then I3 and you may know now that they.did shuti off the-IIPI in the ) ~ ..,3 September.24th episode. 5 IIad somebody familiar' with that episode been -ons tap, 6 your supposition.is maybe they might have asked that question?- 7 A. Not only that, but it may also be true that if you 8 look at the event that I looked at, the cooldown, shutting it 9 off and starting it, in that case may not have been a problem. 10 And esan if I asked that question, D&W probably would have said 11 it is'not a problem, in the cooldown transient'it"is;probably s.. .,.t 12 not a problem. That is the answer.~I probably. would :have s , + C, 13 gotten. 14 And nov, tocarr.vitonestepfurtheri.Tthereisno .3 'wayIwouldhave'backeditdowntotheotherlevent.}iI-had 15 no - 16 knowledge of it and it just was not in my spectrum'of informa-a ~' ~ "' 17 t io'n.- v.4 j~ ' 18 BY 'MRl IIEBDON: r s . - 19 Bt Now'I want to; jump ahead 'just a little, because I' -20 want'to make sure we. don't miss'this point. Sou hadPa, peer' 2 ~ 4 - ~, review meeting'of'this'^ investigation in which you disc,ussed } 21 22 all of these.various-issues,.As I' understand it, there were^ e 23 .quite affew'peoplN there, including'Mr.'Cres' ell!an'd 5 w ,u " 24 Mr. Streeter and Mr; knop, I believe, also. Ace Federal Reporters, Inc, That's right. -25 A. s e a i 4 +. 'e I I y.,,, ~
m - cc 7 vm iq m, 'w j *' .^ Q,*s ~, %, i' .4,, J ) E,- '..- t s. 'e ~ l f. _',,l '~ ,9 ,A ? 5. ~' _. s. i' .. ~ ', n - ,e - a Mmto 1-6 ) ~ '32 m: '. .i w 1 0,ie These werem 11 people who-were familiar with'the r m .3,. 2 'fseptember 24th incident. 'a' hey had all been Linvolved 'withJit. ; ~ r,, .' 3 ' Did any of them raise'this issue of,what happens;if the c r e ~ ope at'or secures higibpressure injectibn? 4 1 e ~
- u.,
~ + 5 -A. P Lh!o'. 7 ~ 6
- G
'Soinone of those. people, even those people! familiar w 7 .with the incident,. raised'this-issue of the what-if'of the' ~ 8 operator; securing.tlie hish pressure injection?- 9 A. + _ ? , That!s right.,-. e. i 10 G Then'ascI3 understand it,,your. eventual. decision - ~ + - -.4 c s yy 11 was that the technical;mprits: of the -concern,' was' thatTit}was A u ~. n 12 not really a. safety concern? ' i f,1 .4 m. A p C ' '+ ~._
- 13 a.
s A.
- Theiccoldown aspects 3rLthe B&O;. transient,ffeedwaEer 5
t. r ~ .s, 14 transient,fI had;come to the conclusion..were being taken, care 7 - ~.._., .;r of.2 There,jwas some merit. t,o th.ae arg,ument-a,nd~there was action ~ 15 U 16 that-was t'aken. i t ,. ~ W r..' y
- - i
..~. x m. Oy 3 ~ There-was 'one item /, one.particular-item about %. ' 5.. ~ 17 9' - AA > - ~ - ,,...g, a ~ ~ part no. f. *the cfeder'al. regulation speaks abou't,/adcidSnt instr.'umen- '4 .18 s. ~, _ ; x. ~, s ;. /~
- r.-
~ ? 19 Jta tion, which must he. of a....a1 spanitof monitor [the tio'tal" course of. 7 e y. r-e. ,; ( < ;,, ; ^ eve'nts. ",And,Mr. Creswell! had. stated?that ' the pressurizer 3 7 r 20 ,s y, ~ 41 ~ - 21 ' level indicahionnwas.nothaccept'able', becau'se it'goes'doEn y M-. ; r, ,, s + w ;/ ~ -- ls.s.c.acale',' Mand ^we looke,d intio 'that ~and we >got information as to' +:.- .. + ~ 22 + s .- 1 u ~ [ 23 [howivarious peo!p,ls perceived',that federal?r$gulati,on.anchEhe: ~ . a: .,g a q l, r r .,.fr . < - 24 dact(that/the pressurizer.16 vel goes fdown,' scale. y .y T t ~., p n 1 Ac.-F der.: n. port.r inc, y 3. s g. ?., -9,' ' :25 N.. 2.rh./ H The!vendo,r.said;,the typ.e;of. transient' th.atithey y J, 1. _.. 4]'* %P 4 s .y; ^ [v .m d~ + E _,; * ) .,'4,'
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- er ps.
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== e -- S b q .N ';'s t e '7' ~,.7.. .. ' q'. 1 s e-y s i4 _. :#p%m4f[,h/P', &# 1 U,* 5j; -#Y:'W87F: P 4 ~.y'id . y n r,. M ~ 'Qig.% @ id It @t w; y ,,.:+,; x w.a.t y,:<: .. we, m a ,+ yt l . : Y! d _W5_ ! ' - % ~A N 'h. N ': % ; d ~_ Y.!k Ub5SMY ?* ' A --?S Y $$W SY
j;'..
- ~.
A ' '! l - .s, f .,7 ~ m. 3. n-mte 3-7 4,; .. _^ t33 ~ ^ +- v s m 21 ' liad. wasnot ' a normal transient and.Tthat - the foderal regulatio'ni ~ s a, 5
- 2 g nlyJspeaks'of operational events.. ;This ~. vias not:an operational
.~ w < m(. v). ^ 3 . event, therefore.the.levhl indicator wa's not expected to.do .~ 1, W. .c ? o . n 'p
- what-it;did.,
- p
. s Light,J who~ had aisimilarisituNtion, 5 - Arkansas Powe,h & i 6 said, while the level indicator, wen't'down scale,>we certainly ~ L7 'did not' 1ose pressurizer; pressure indication', there? isj a'. p ,7 4 .. e, s correlation between p,ressurizer ~ievel and. pressurizer pressure, 8 e,_ ~ 9 (s o .,e could tell you what that correlation is,.and.therefore'we' w e w -10 are satis'ied that we monitored the cours~e.of this., transient. f e 'n A ? e Il' . ; "r ~ ~ t ' ' s,.- t F l Q nnd I wil-1 tell]you'the4 truth l.' I presented that A.. # e c c,. ; , 12 }infbrmation'and 1 could have gone either way.as to whether thet z .~ ,[. i }f , 11,3 indicator.was acceptable W not. SJ .( yr + * - ;e U. J ~ i t u+- . g. a v 17 q. w / t .s =., ' I4 Q.. You mean your. reference to / he federal. regulasions',7 t L 15 .Itbeli, eve,' would be'a reference to one of the generali. design I a ,~ 16 c. criteria?-. 43y - y y u ,,,al u' ~. <. A.;., Yes',e that.tsl correct.' u'- l. <. x.i c 17 ^ m s Of . Did yo.uacontact'anyo5d[in;NRRfc'ncerning'the [ ' i 18 r, o 7 ..m e ,a ~ r r [' i 19 ~ teclin'ical merits of these [c'oncerns'?. 7-[ d 'l.y a ~ .w 20 NA?? . Yes." ~ a he
- g...
4 ;h s , 3 ~ J W . - %.m,.,.. y 4 W r;.. - y . s.,21 G. Lauld.you describe -th'at': contact?4 .e + i .s 1, 4 .,i, 'v., y,s + m, s s j"N. " 22 L, d. T 'I%ertainlyjcan? 'I'clcontiacted a L.Mr. TSy. Weiss'and: ~ ^ Q1 - 7 f'. A j 123 'I think:he 'i's"a' branch' chief or'a" sect' ion chief.at NRR-inD-O,, /Gq
- n a
w . ? t [ , g j2( JReactor. Safety'now.; I have-been 'away ; too J long,.- but. I know. ^ ~ f n Ace.Fede,el RMrtek tnc.- . s. ,M t. 3.(., s. 25; -Sy; personally. II',us'ed1tojw,orkLin Bethesdaland"I.;know him; sIa .y-m s, ~ ' f } f, [z t,, .ns _[_ v ,? n ~ \\* -~
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.s ~ sd - e L-3 r e y ,w ,.j s u '1 -. mtE N8 .' J k' 34 '- l-. ; 3' 4 Qhave:aagood workinky Eclationship with,him. ~ [- - o. < .x 2 Sy 's gro'up in ' December of -1978-was.the recipient; f3 of. alluthe informa tion Ethat' Toledo. I:dison-submitted l, o'n i the s / p s. ~}-
- 4 iccoldown trans'ient.' And Sy's
- group met'with L&A and'with
' ;e .cq, .n ?,/ ,t.? "'w ) f Toledo I:dison, and' Sy's group was1 told 'certain"informati'on. - - n 5 .u 6 I called him up before we'even' started and I'said, is.there: ~ v 7 anything that you wou'ldflike m'e to look ati,7. is'there anything I y.- ~ ~' e 8 that they told iyou that you d.on' t under' tand and4. you wou.ld' 5' s s 4 : 9 like me,to.look3at; what is~your understanding'of~what they.. r 1 -1 s. , 10 told,you; what'is'your understanding of the:fix that is e "I .a t- ~ s11 to be'put in.?. 4 m u y 1,. + ~ ~but.it was somethins,'3 ~ 12 It' wasn' t a long conver'sation, > v '-5 C '* [. . this is what thdy ' told us; you might ask- ~, ~, 13 toithe. ef f ect that', ~ 14 s .them the following questions.;.and;r.ight now we are7in the'.+' f, i.
- m...
.t+ 4 ~ + . w. s : / 15 ' process,-lSe said, of lookingsat Toledo, Edison'sladministrative' i. w w g-r. - s / / Y*ke.a v a ,*r , *"<..P y 16 controls in lieu of hardware until the. hardware gets put'in;i*--;? ',,,4 ,,s v- . e :. .c
- 7. ;.
3 p - ' ' ". f. v "Now?as":I understand it, this fas ?.thej adminis trati've't ~ 'I x. ;;. .x ~ - a y w ~.. Ic.ontroll of naintainiw[Esteam; generator level: at. 352inchest 4 . S ig-ng ,c n, w, "' > J 3.v 'Q [4 ~ r 9 r ~.,... o,
- 4. %
O,.. -19 minstead,of. 120.during certain. transients?.. n' L :... t- /. m/ n ",,'a"'.,s~ ' <4 s, y. .s . w,,, ~ + - .; n...c >a: p,; a y.' 70 A. . Ri gh. t.. ' o f, . ~ ,f.- sm w a. s n: hf N~ 'So NRR wasiirvolved witl;thatiissue? ' ~ 21 ~ a 4 .s.. 43, .,. : s... .t ~ V o -. x m, , ;. c.u; eL,F 27 ~ Y G S '- W 'e ' 'M
- 9\\'%
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.. ~ g . y ~.. 3. yny-. 3' . 23 I '. Mat [1nvolvementi.or: wh~ateindication: did Mr 3 Weis y-E g g
- 'I*
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- 7 j4- '@ ivc yougsb6utLthe' specific concern withlrespect to the1 M+
z;t" ~ ~. a n. y 1, t. N ~ c %.F.6.,.s n.pon.n. ine. a j,.. - n ~
- voiding o,ffthe pressuridsr? nHow.did,thatifitLinto'th. t W
- f at overall 7
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m[. g f t Mig'Y; '[dW'w b & sL ' ', M[ ,,c. 4 D "4 N ), t,.. N h dD{..I W[y}s ',es'N'Nf3dNO, % %-@1[ I >? T -h h , 1[ E [ y. 3 MgMW' ' Wc s MQ x 3.W n E s g%@dL ^ ' m__u' ;- w -h ' 1 - 4ip'. a._ s -u M +M ' ~W: di k; W.*L D, Q:,. ML
m ,, ' '.,. '[ i -,,n p. T 'y,.. - ~ 4 A ' nite 3-9 ~ 09 'a 35 3 4 ) + 'e f f i j consideration?; 1 'i A.- - Mr. Weiss, as'I recall, said, it} is.- not aiprobl'em, b-a -a .v ,c .g
- ?
3
- high. pressure'injectioni system will com' l on, 'will refill the'
~ - 4' e p
- - y :-
z. ~ s, c,@[ f . q4.. core;..:th'at)their review.was(keying on the hardsare involved -s e. ~ 5 .in the dual set point modification toethe~ aux. feed-system;. 4 ' 6 'that they were in the W ocess-'of reviewing-the administrative ~ controls tthat ' the' operators: Mould be. for.ced to operate' unde $- 7 7 8 'regarding'r'unning,back' the aux.[ feed 1 pump ~ control'or. from'.the 2-9 120~to 35 iaches, and~they mere only allowed to do thatJin. . r,s..s. s , i. 10 certain.:ases. p.' ~
- M 'Eknd[jie asked:-me to find o_ tit why-. Davis-Besse had -
~ '11 a 7.- . y. 12 .such;-large: auj'?!ced pumps compared to everyone else,. becatise
- s..o
,a ~, ~.13 Q(. ,;these appeared :to be the main. factor in causinggthe shrink [in 14
- the essb~rizerI in the steam generator..
a-e ~ l'S .- F E.He.didn't'give 'you'any/ indication.that.he'. felt' s A .o e f-scale low, or even th'e 16 that.'.th.e pr.ess_urizer. level goi-z y < p -i. v x-a ,1 ~ ~.j7 [pressurigep'le\\rel voiding priori.. to the~ time 'the high pressure N 1. t %4 c m .,6 ~ . e 18' inj ecyion'^camef on', was ' of ' anyz, pdrticularf concern,?) f) J 3 ,~, e/ s 2~- + - H:- i P'." W;.. ~ 19 D Nok he:didn't? -3 m u.. + n _ s1; 5 .w? 4 3 . M-i
- ' ~
^ l" 3-c +, 2 BYTUR.[FOUSOM:- -l ' Me '~ ~ 1 a - p .~ . J -21 ,. 1.
- u.. I ' have 'a c q~ues ti~on.
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.., mMight'I'.judt addione other'tiiing while I;'mDthinki'ng' . r W- ~ -22 A. 4 j 2.g .v e c 23 4about it:p that my. discussicinseled ;me $to believe that this. _. ? x .y ~ .. w:, ; o y - 24
- Was J --i tha trthere ; was 1 a. hardware 'fi~x to Jthis.jthing;?.that, the #R 4 -
~ " ?'% y _-.,
- " :. p.s, s
- i, <
A _'. A* Federal Reporters, Inc, Q., ~ /l ' 1 s. i 3 y # G y..' F25 safetyTaspects' of.-it' kere somehow; reviewed and. fotisd-maybkno't' c gc .n 9 m.-. n.+ g . ~ w.- E$f ll{ E :.),E L' s' 3~. 4 ,9 . l. \\C ?N , $f. D' ~l' '. 7 f.,y l%;X o ' ;: ~ - y eq.yy.,. p; y n'., 4,: ~.a c %. s ~, 4 Q, v y - .v x n., n
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'q:c -, c - s n~ ,T.V \\;;! ^.. ,k?;p.; ' T.l 7 27, (hfb*&5 f i?.?) >c ce . 0. ' ? kl - $.s ? ? h.g;b y -Q; *,}} Q U ~ f...$ l y&; %m. w,i.Qh, & -(y, gf:? l ? j; .s m o w +.;: -- ,~ 3 J. .~ 7 ~ W & g.Sf; W,.% - 0 < ' }l[U- : 'Y ' '. ~..
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mte 3-10 36 1 . totally -- they weren't totally happy with it,.but that there 2 was a hardware fix and it'was going to be implemented. 3 BY MR.'HEDDON: .'~ 4 0 Well, if the issue of pressurizer level voiding'or 5 pressurizer voiding was not a safety concern, what was the 6 purpose of the hardware fix? 7 A. To enhance the pressurizer level indication, 8 because it was not felt that it was a good situation. 9 G So this was a nice-to-have type of fix rather than 10 a fix that was necessitated by a sr.ecific safety concern? 4 11 A.- That's right. 4 12 BY 11R. I'OLSOM : I 13 G Now, has anybo'y criticized your contacting d 14 Sy Weiss? 15 A. No. 16 0 Now or then? 17 A. Well', I think 'I know what you are getiting at. 18 G I don't know what'I'm getting at. 7;;t ~' 19 A. This agency.is very insulated. -The groups-have 20 two vertical chains of command, and : the coolies are not 21 supcosed to talk-to each other. Unfortunately, I'm one of-22 the people-who used to work'over therE and I:know a-lot.of 23 p'cople.over there, and the best way to get--information is to 24 .make a call.over there, and I do it alk the ' time. And when Ace-Federal Reporters. inc. 25 I was younger, they did, hit me a few times over the head. But x c .m'. N ^ 9 y 4 s up
s mte 3-11 37. L j it' hasn' t happened in the last - couple of years. r-2 G The next question that I want to'put to you on this-Y. y 3. is: Did this in fact resolve one of the rnajor prtions that 7 ) .i you were about to inquire into? ' 5 A. It certainly.' told me that'the body of experts had 6 ruled on this item in terms of'its technical nature and hadn't ,ound any problems with-it. And I was then looking at the f ~ 7 8 investigation as verifying'that what B&W told"NRR was true. ~ ~ 9 BYrMR. HEBDONE 10 0 So now it sounds like--to rephrase !!r. I'ols om 's ij question just a little, 'itsotinds 1,ike th n tihat your f'inal i + 12 conclusion on the technical merit or.:the techn'ical content of -/l the concern was that it really wasn't a problem from a technica l 13 g; ~' ja perspective. Thatiswhatitlookslike.)Tliatis[ definitely. ~ ' A. - .15 .n 16 what it looks like. o '. ~ (j7 G Now, the other side of the issue.'orithe?other + 4 v,. 18; question,is..whether. or not Toledo '. Edison jnd. B&W' conducted; a' i 39 timely ' evaluation: to determine that tlii's t was. in ifact not~ a,' ,?- e-3 problem. What were your. conclusions in that ' area? ".7
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.c -3' 'thatje[were' going'to discuss..'When',the' meeting started out,.- r~ ., s s un 3,..- a s ;1. g s ~.. a, -4 we.haddrepre.sentative_s " f rom ' Me tro'politan-Edis.on,7 Florida. g[ s o s- ? + 17 5 Power &- Ilight, Arkansas", Nuclear,. and SMUD -- Sacramento. 6 Municipal; Utility District -- and I was quite taken aback-by 7 different, utilities being presentiat; a mee' ting._.When.I'saw. 'v this group of1 people there, I didn ' tlkriow initi' ally. if If ha'd, 8 - A 9 discovered something of Creswell had" discovered something a,;, t; a .r. 10 Davis,-Besse.that~.was now af fecting: th'ese. p'eople.. i o - 7 .,m.b,s N ._A LW 11 ' In facti, that is what I~ thought. I ' though,7 oh;;%_hi's"is > _. 2. l ,n c -s e p._ y r.; ' i YW~ u 12 now. bigger than Ifthought!because[~now it's going;to bdl; 9... b,^ x x 82 h 13 ' industry-wide. It turns. out exactly"the opposite -- thath,...ntdieseS 1 ~ .u .n i- ~ ~ 3 ?' -r,;. 14 four operators:had all experienced tlieMs'ame event.n Ink pe. [ g ~ L - i. - ' d.y 4 15 particularly,AEkinsas had contacted: B&W(in'1975 L:to reviews..l_ +.. m a 1 4 ~, .x a.: ~m . 3 7.,_ _, - 16 similar event.; Sof:the meetin..g.was;one'in which? Foster-and,~KI_L M .4** .j [ f .17 y r., were orchestrated (tlirough, and{it;was ;a.? dog' and"ponyfshown U. 4 v - p.. ma., v.o w, .p.: s Theki ad a lot of' d,ocumentatiokthk they shobekuhIt!1iIt NWL ~ 18 n,;, ~ Q c ~ g z y that $thiy;rev_ e~w'e[(t' in - l'975,: 1. e 19 was aware of thisL probleni, i 4 . ~y ~ a - ng -.;- 3 - r L+ ;, y~, ,7 +.;; y w _. 9, _ w;.,;, c 1 - 7 '20 that Arkansas requestedfit,',[an~d essentially'fthat thelconcl'tisioni c .~ . u; w L-af '21; is/.that -alhigh pressure injectio.nfsystem,lw'ss, going (tio,come ong/ j
- .7 3
,p< ,mm. ..Q y; if . ; 22 When }you 'lo,ok:.a, afsituatiori _.= where,2.one',[ydu 'r. m ; o -eisay%gi' -. 9 ~ didithe clicen,se,e: take=a: tiimely'Iction, and you :see,iin 19.75.? ~ g -y+ _.~.~;,.g w w.. - ^. ' ' 21 c s ' u the tendor ha'd reviewedithisfitem,7.you' startito; change. youri - {m. .%.. ~. 3 24 r a " ' Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. ^si. ~. '. * - '?[ .-h ._g s q ~ > %.
- 125 niind' about;the' timelinbss';ofi.it'~ : I mean' 3 this'!i's 'not-a{itewfitemZ
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r. .= - ~,, n ,,.n n. ,. ; 3, ( r.W#s.e ._m s q- = a-3 ~*- 't W a 39 V' ? t q o_ 1 <4 ~ t, 1' 'Thi.s ' h a.s;.happe, ned before. 'mgc 4-2 ay e m 12 . We were pr'ovided a " doc'ument..that showed that. B&W was ~ _ _ ~. _ 3 -7 .m. q. m. r 3 y_ inJ contact. ToledocE.dison"was..in contact w'ith2B&W soon after.. - c-z., c '2 ~ - - _.., s. s. 4 y g. 3 __.
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- }g, theLevent' and particularly a document. with words 'to the 6ffectX 7
.x i S . i v' of howsan:we improve;our l'evel indicatibn. .a Toledo Edison' a , ~ 6 4 was not happy;with what took place, and'there were three-w 7 possible' ways.they could h'aveMonelinitialiy.- They couldz have;~odificed the aux feed : pumps.. Thiy chuld have ' flow - x 8 ~ .e 0 /. 29 ~controll'ed;them -- put a flow controller on them.. The'y coul'd a 10 h' ave 'gone 'with the dualisetzpoi_nt,; or they could have,'cNanged ~ ~ .. e .7 possibly the positionDof'.the. pressur% ~ ~ ,, ~ - ~ n V II = izer:levelfindicationit'ap... h.t ~ M ~ 12 hhd thossJfour-things'were under review. M i g n_; m >.g. p.
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a p y 13 ~ .~ '~ 'O ' As a result of :the November" incident?- c J y s 3- .r J a; 7 1,1 ...t- -_ -. c' 3 i 14 ..j. 1,. ges. a ;;, ,g Em ~ 1 15 ..; ig CAnd athey' eventually concidded or. eventually proposed x . v-3 16 the dual set point? .. w e.,, r - n..> ,x ,r. > ~ c , ~! 17 A, That's right. ' S6 what"I!m'tryingito seesisV hat?;E 4 t .,--u y,< m so. s < ^. a. f.,. w c. 18 we;,were. provide'dfwithJa ' vendor - -we; se.re;provided with/the %,-. c y ~ s g,. s yg . c 3.. - %a c 1.. r, w m ,e,n
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. I<did nott,1~ook,~a,.t' the we,,', e cer ificaitioni of:a1 vendobanalysis'., s, .t G-A ~ vendor; analysis._ ~. ' Andjthis'. get's back t'ol what I said before k .e v. 20 a. a. 21 4 xQ y i '~ e 3ven]if H I. looked f at' it,,I^ don (' ti kn'ow;iflit'would have ldond..anyg h- .i a r ~ e .e. .3. jN 22 good.
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gw n ,l7 ', 4, .Q' 's' ag; t.This' vendor 7 analysis _you 're. ;... ' $) / ' ~ x., b. Y,' 'T MQ.3, g; ';, ..,... Jy :,,.. ~ ,u J , 23 . ; talking'about is-the '_; *r g. n .nx : - g ; ..y mendor[analys. is$they) 211d f6r',.. 3. ' y. ~> ,24 a y c
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JJ i. r Ace-Federal Reporters, tnc. f,.,. 14 7 425. .,g ; A. J1 Tha~t 's right. - !WNen,I[getf a / p'iece'o'f pap.erflike 7that>- . ~. c .o.~ ,( 9 2 w- .c <; f, ' .T C ; ~. n,.3 ^.; 3,..y . ;.f f - ' 7, 9.,:. - w x Q *+ ( ,C~_.=r , t') (
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3 . 5 3.c,_ .j. q; _s a. u l i .x . o l -J mgc,4-3,~ _ 1 signed by a_ vendor, I have to:-take it at % hat it's. worth,-.if. c -I'm 'not looking.at.the - analysis. I= ass.umed'it was'true.' I. 2 p_ ass';umed that that was true. Em ~ 3- ^ ~ + 3 .. ~ - e y s . *j n +
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.r y .._e, j. 5 (... c 9 g.... g", s. Do$you know - ifr the analysis th~at.was t done : for.- 4 c5 .x m Arkansa'saNuclear wasiever.eprovidedcto the NRC?', 3 ' ~ ~ 6 ' A' It is' my recollection that it.was.not.: .I don't wt- ~ 9 1 7 know for'sure' though.,:Iido not;know.' ,y ~ 8 lg-Diddyou.have any. feeling that there -was?any. : E', requhement. that it should 'h'avedeen provide'dito _the NRC?.c n ~ 9 . I.J ' P.f + 10 A. This gets'back-ito-whether a. licensee c1'assified'.7 z.m. F * >,? m. .g 11 something,as an unreviewed safetyjquestion. Anlunreview,ed H - -j s. y s,. 12 safety; question.has to be:provided to the NRC, if thellice'nsee t ? u 13' ew w comes upon a situation 'in~ tho' course of. his operation ~ hich he 1 w i 4 5 .,.2 - F \\ 14' can't resolve, 'and h'e hires a ;vendorc and the vendor: says i.t'l* L 2 _t. 3,: s-
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15 - is'no"problemhit is not an unreviewed slafety?questi~on It; 4-E1 s. . ~, .t ? 16' doesn'.t1have to be submitte_d~to the-NRC. .u.. .w y a *m .p 8
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.'s,,.c. -4 a s y '17 G' Even, though it has[never been. review'ed' by.:the NRC?; ",; $.T + w ... y. :n t M_ ..p r That. is not. a clear ar~ea.% Ivami.n.,ot knowledge. able,J.. - 18 -A-4 w, ~- ,p. e z.. s ><t.. m r .1. 19 sabout.what the NRC-reviews ~in.totalJon every) job. n I. don't- ~h ' O -20 know what;theyylook;at.; ".x ~ 4 "JJ, - - ~;,. r m;- 4 -.,.,., u -e . n., 2 17 n n-3 21 Oc-m- .~ .y '" 3 . ~ * ' s a. l'.But ?g'your understanding of+ the :unreviewsdfsafety;m 7 a [ 1 Mr g . _,.. %S -,sm.- p. a-22 issue'means unreviewed by anybody, sojif anDissue(ha been. k. ' y) - i %, : +. y J% q ~ ~<- rE! viewed by.ithe Nen'or and b'en re' viewed by-a con'sultant?,, - .\\; E d r e ^ 23 ' 24 thatfis " reviewed"?J s - b. '.. ' J l", ; y ,. 5 W c, ,r. :. ,m ..m. ' Ace. Federal Floporters, Inc. .o ',, ; 4. _. p, ,*l 7o;f* ~ - 25 X * ? '.A. TBut it could"alsotbeiinithe context of'not being. . ;a -~ %. .w,e o -s1 c. - a,, m. W,,, s F 8.' 8'. [+ .[' f E, y ,.9 - c '"-m - M1 ) 4 ,j g -0 = s_ . ' -.,.A ;p a j;g N % W
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.- s. .s g Y 4 ef A j n' F 4 41_ ' f t,' p m N a ~ + ~ mgc '4-4 I e'xplicitly' stated in the FSAR butinot outside the bounds Tof + y m 2 -what.the FSAR deals with. That could'also"be.. c,, - j y t g .. ~ 3
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' 0. ~ 2 [.' the conclusion that~the utility hEd reviewed.th'e issu'e and 4 4 ,m 3 5' the ! vendor. 'had~ re. vie ci the issue in.a. timely manner-and;h'ad:5 -6 'deciEled that it.was not a. problem. Thers'was not the safety ~ r .s,. - 7 proble'm;. therefore, s there 'was not an unreviewed safety issue? ~ -A. .That is correct.- I further concluded t. hat' ~the, ~ 8 r. 9~ conteritilon that Toledo Edison was tardy in reviewing this 10 item possibly,was.Jdue-to'the fact.that this item.hac1 occurred. ~ r 11 before th~ey' pereiaware of dt.- They were expecting' it,f.and: e b~C ~2 they did'n ' t;.think they.'had to - review it until. rnoref in' ormation f y, ~7 ~ ~ h~... - .13 was requested by Mr. Creswell. Nt 4 y + ' N, g.* 14 + d. Toledo Edison was provided witli', a,documen't from B&W. c, 1 - l'5 dur,i g the tconstruction ' that said, od y' ur main steam sa'fett. o v ~ a ~ . valves, you should tweak them a certain way bec'ause itbhas.15een {,,, 16 ,s 4 e,!, 17 ob, served that if they are not'just,right, you're going tolaidt?.. - .,a,. .this cooldown transient 0and' possibly; lose (the. l'evelb Toledoh. R' N 18 r- ' 1y.; 'Edisonidid.not do anything to the' main steam safeties u,3,ntil i,,J, .~ ~.. ~19 i 4 ... f .g, +.= ~,,,. ' ' 20 .,af ter ;the\\ Novdmber-event. '2 ,x.. --, f ;g;.; - 'T wi ~, Now; you rnight1 say, why the.. hell didnTti$they do'it +i 4 h i n, 21 ' ~ y 3
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9 y r .n T ^ M9, ,22 before? 7;With mainisteam safeties,iyou can't tune them until y..# g u ? ^ s ). ~ . n n m,..... w;;., b;- s ';iv - ~. .,v;; ~ 2'3.you seesho'w much'they pa'sshinia real' event. '.Yousiustic'an'tf. ~
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7 ,-9 NY ' 2h 4 - Ace. Federal Reporters, Inc, J '[ have ddne.sobething 'before han'd, but. they[certainlyddeake'd; c' ~ .i nf 25 o g w :... eo .",g'* e, g s .,*-s .w + 1- ,np.< v . fr., g.., ,s n; ,= y, .y.sg. ', ' '. *,. p'.A 1, '.,.;. c;9.,ys.' .1 ', ' 4. y; - sy . 4 + C 6 ( -Q" ., j y .yy .a gg- - < j',, y~ -',,,y y ~ < + _ a,e &~ < [ Y,; Q ~ 3,; f syy $ bd %'^ ' e,:. W K..Q *V M 1.h'."[ S e &'M '$? : Q ' < - ' ;C.,. YMhkW .:] s i s < Id. 0 i'7 < ' "^ i -d -7 % M. N 9/ syn i)'['s @: &y,cLe: de, w m"en ;w'wme n &. ,4 t w w m ut
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.+, -i f F .3, 4 'c m 7 u.- 1, 2 e, ..42 y s. mgc 4-5 1 them afterwar'dsr t g .r ~ ' 2 Of So; they 'did' adjust th'em a f ter.the. November event? - .[ S 8* ~ ^ 4 G 'SoEthere was. reason.to believe th.at T,oledo:Edisont t:, ~
- 5 ' expected to11ose pressuri'zer' level th'e'~first few times 1.thatL T'
z <c. ^ '4 ~ r;! E 6 they got an event'that ended up in lifting the s'afeties.on} i '7 these. steam generators? ~ t 8 A. Not.-only that, but discussion with de nuclear, 9 engineer at the station said that he was. totally aware.ofmit n.- - 10 and-that it was simulated at'Lynchburg. f, 'O The loss'of pressurizer level war simulated?u ~' .. I'. ~ 11 ~A.- Ies. 12 7 lG~
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'O Do you know if. Toledo.: Edison was-specifically-aware; 13 4 - x. .m. 14 of th'e study;thAt had been!done'fo'r7. Arkansas Nuclear indicatingi J.3 s .r ~ 15 that?lo~ sing pressuiizer level or voiding the p'res'surizerfis- }2 ,y c. p, 16 .not.a problem? ~p = .x. +' m A#,,.They were-certainly aware of it whenDArkansas(gave 17 ~ . H. '18 me:a_ copy ofathe memo at-the.meetinlg. ,.t
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during this l. transient'., f What ledi them to believe that.that ^~ \\_.,,,[' fj } .A e ( wasn't/ going t'o,be a problem?':* 7-w.f,. ~23 v w v + ~ L ,3 y ,,. ::n,, A.... I w uld like toJth' ink the vendor. - '-the:: vendor. 24 s n O,
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?- r S -1'* .b- *QQh.-?^ .? Ace-Federal Reporters, inc ' [' .~ m has a'- fi' eld " rep [on 'si...tefdurieg startupTand;the; vendor;,looks';, 7 25 n. e 4 - + + en,,..,,_, -, m... 7 ' %r c 4
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x 7 r: .n., uz ..s( 74 5, D#, .[ u;~ ' v, 'i '.e ~92 '.,- .s,, y - Ci i. Yy. , ~ -,, >;.." w.s 4 ^ .c,, a, .s c. ~- .., ~ ; .43 ' S' '.c., -M' / s g..d'. j ~ o "~ ,A I .~ mgc. 4 - 6 'at 'all. of Jthe items. that. arel. generated-during the startup - 2 e -n 2 and I-assumelthat the" vendor -saw this itemrand Esaid this is - s. .v - ~ l 3
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what" happened ~ at such and. such a, place;J this Eis. not. a problem. ',. ~; ~ gh,. ~~ Q4 'This'is nothing.new.i This'is what'is expected.... Retune your" ' t l 5 safety valves. - Your sux feed: system is just.overcoolingi-6 and let 's go from ' '.nere. s" a 7 I might ad'd one other thing. This is very important, s 8 .too. B&W plants;apparently don't supply as much' bop:as'some ~ 9 of - the other plants. The secondary side of. Davis-Besse is 10 - + ~. completely different than the secondary sidd' at Thre'e Mile, _ 3 e II Island,'an'd it's'gompletely different from thefsecondary~ a 12 side - the. containment logic is different;;the highipressure v s.- ..J
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[~ 13 y4 injection = system logic -i~s inot the: same. That is not.true of ~ yp s 14 , wJ ';f .t s ;.1. the Wes tin,gho. use' p,l ants. That is'no,t true. The safety. "'y.* w, 4 15 injection 4phil~osophy is the same.f The'/containmestisisolation[ ^ p ,1- ~. <16 philosophy.;is2the{same. a E Q q : : ;;. p '- i au +. l17 .7 So B&W see.,s this.. event'. IIt:is-not in'their purview.t6 7,.q p m ~18 s I.. do anythincf about it: right iway. You ' re9 talk'ing ~~ab'out? a.. z* ;,. +. .w r ~ { { -,;- a 19 safety injection system thatNa5 bought by a' third party'. J'c c w i t. l roleder Edison)will tell you their.S. + 20 n-7.fasi logic w._as. bought;'- ' 21 by3somebody else.,B&W'did not'cprovide it.; ~ p ,,. r - p s 4 m i; 22 c0 Designed by somebody[else?,,, t 9;- ..s 7' ' 5 N 't^ .-~.s ,3 ,r. y;_ w. 23 ' N A., >Yes. J 4. . 7r 3 m, E. g. ,k(Do'~you know who-designed it? 6,, .c .M' s. f-5/ s ,24 2 t ,f n.- 0.$ t 4 u. ,- A - 4 ee-Federet Reporters (inc., >:e L 4 + 25 A. a_ 5 STheyi gave"me '.the name,,,but 'I don! t.know c. Ittis not-, Je u, 1 y, e g-a .s, .s. c 7 '.~. s = s b 1 4 ,A e ,e ' an. g g ^ .} 5b k,* +:- ,;/iMF ?' ' I4 Q-1 M }.Y *'[j,4L*4 .t. p eN., q f ~'* * - .5-Q.jh;$ ' NW,VU, ~3 N,i c
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~- 44 mgc 4-7 1 B&W. I don't know how they got involved in this thing, but 2 B&W did not supply the safety injection logic to that plant. 3 BY MR. FOLSOM: 'T'" 4 G You said that B&W - that the engineer at Davis-5 Besse told you that B&W had put this type' of event on their 6 simulator and had come up with the conclusion that there was 7 no problem involved, tha t the simulator went through.it 8 to the point where there was no problem. 9 Does the simulator reflect 'the coming. on of the HPI? 10 A. Yes. -y II O The nex' question is did the simulator in any way 12 take into account operator action? ( .13 A. I don't know. I don't know. 'l'can-only give you 14 a best guess. I would say it would have to, and again I would 15 say, I bet if you look at the B&W simulator in a cooldown, 16 I bet you won't have any problem. If you stop and start the 17 HPI system, I bet you' won't. 1B Q If the. operator comes on and stops the.HPI? 19 . A. On the cooldown,.I bet you don't have any problem. 20 That's what I'm sayi'ng'. 21 BY MR. HEBDON: ( 22 O . Remember he's talking about a'cooldown,-and TMI-23 was a leak. 24 Okay now. You.had this meeting with a fairly,large Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 number of people including Mr. Creswell and Mr. Streeter'and a
~ ~[ ij h , [j ;, e, +-tv \\ - .4(,3 .~ 2 7 w ,,r-y. y w - 45 h 'd,- I mqc 4-8 .few others, and y~ou discussed 'all of. these ' conclusions that you had reached.: What 'was'sa'id.by'- t' lie variousf people a.t ~ ~ 9, ,y that;me[tking?iWas'tereicjeneral' agreement,' criticisms,.. y M; j- .. c.
- 2,.
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- disa'greements?
.i 5 [ There.was discussion on whether a. non-compliance
- 6
~ should be issued, on whether there was non-compliance.in w anything that_ we. lookedi'at,::and particularly a' long discussion., 7 ? 8 on what constitutes :a licensee-identified item of non -compli-i 9 ~ ance.whicli I d6nt even want toi get into. ~ s , 10 If'a' licensee ik coming 1upo.n' assituation in his plant;, ~ y ] j '. e which i,-non-compliance:and he. . k [~ y tells us;-in.,.-,. -~ a s j some casestwe: ^p.,, a 12 .do'not issue a citation'. We want. to encourage rth[t typef o,f.,' ~', ^ s ...C.d y ^ 513 thing;wel don'.twaNttodiscourageit.-,.. k,,, m. ~ f g y 9 + ' I4 The~ thing that~I recallimost -- there was nofnon-dompliance- .m sc ...a g'. 15 out of the1 entire' investigation; that-there was? no'unreviewed - ~ T** 16 safety' question as far as we ha'd' concluded 3onS he loss.of ~ t ' lm R. - .~ ~ ~17 'pfessuri.ier.l'evel' indicator," a'nditilat' 1 think'.Mr..Creswell' < ~ 7 r. .H . a .a ~ y .18, ' felt a little Taf fronted;that s'e t h'adn' t' foiind anything.~ J That. y :: - 73. .,4
- isi he J en'd -of '.whati rsallp~'; transpired -- [r6allyith'ati there'. was.
19 t s 4 . y.. ~ 20 nothing th..at: we' found Ethatiwasi discrepant.~ f . ~...
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y y +;w + ~ c ^ .y w - y 1 23 Anyone% 1se other'than?Mr.J reswell? 9 3 ". ~ hl ' C x. c - g. ') [ A'~ No.. I'm 'not;even goingj to worry about the' N 24 m,.,.i n.,,on.,,,w. - s x., m .m c s undervolt'ge'.thi'ng.,You!re'notl worried about that. :Soithere . 25 a ..s .[h - f - ~ i
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~... h. Yes.' - e n . w ,#y u a ,~ 3 / ~ ~ -5 G7' That'you'd not found-any items'of'non-compliance. 4 J ~ 6 Di'd'he_give you anylspecificfindication of where he felt you-m,- 7 . f had made/a'n error or where he-ifelt you had'nce look'ed'into things 'de'eply enoucih? i 9' .'~.' A.. Well'.; one of the items I think he mentioned was? ~ . 2 w. ijo w 7 theTfact th'at th'e general design criteria l require that the .s; -m s .c 11 .a instruhnen. tation.euse.d'inta,nEevent'actually have a span that~ m, t ., + 12 "c di t , M ^
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y will record"tKegwhole ev..ent, and the. fact that the thing went-j n g m n N downscaIeis.definibel[. discrepant, relating'tofone;of the- . ~, generalidesign"crihe'riaki.~..; f [v s r s. 15 And it wasjmy tpinibn. c -n a .I could go either(way-on"thatl, 16 t-It - wasn ' t. non-complian e', though.*. We don',t negotiate onc c 4 ,7 n. general, design $,cEit'eNa 'w,ith non-compliance.f ' We send that. back ,8-
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. w i A to3 Washington /CGeneral design cfiteri'aJisynotinon-compliance'.' a. r w c. L.;. 39 n :,.~;y. ...,4+ a + ,,5 c '+ Ittislarlot! worse.- You' don'tJde~al with.thattin. a'30 daydletter. .o 3 ~ \\ 20 '~ t I ' NM ~ (.9 Bilt: Wa'shington.'was aware f of-that. They h'adir'eviewed this) s s ,a d -.w a~ - 'j21 1n: De' ember, and.they?had 'taken ;t he. actio'n: to. enhance; the) c ? 1 ' W. a. ( 22 a. i level indicatior by'providing' duel)seE point soEth'atiit would g v 3 V n, <4 s s - v,,q n .t . :.a., 23 m<n .g^ -~g + x, t
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i-c 47 rrige.4 -10 I was'welllal'ong into the engineering of the dual set point, 2 so that ' their level indicator would 'not go off scale., 3 g. So you felt'that"the. issue of whether or not that 3 (J r 4 J was a violationJofithe generalldesign criteria was-being A '5 highlighted in NRR and was'being fixed. 6 h. It was being addressed. And there wasl'one'.ot ar 7.iitem. Forget that. That was related.to the.undervoltage relay. .8 'That' had no relevanc6 whatever to ' this. 9 G; Okay. 3, s, 10 73,
- Mr. Creswell tried to' walk out of thermeeting.
U He said heshad bettc things totdo.-- that.he had h5a'rd[enough, 12 and he was ' going to write. some memos or wha'tever'," an'd that i r i - () - 13 ~ Mr. Streeter importuned him to stay.around and_ listen to[,the 14 wholeEthing, afte'r which' time he' acted like a commu'ter whg 15 was trying t'o catich thel 5i05 and.it was '5:00. H5 mus.ti have 16 Llooked at his watch about ^ 50,0.00 times' and justb acte'd very ~ s 1, 17 uncomfortable. (c-9 + 0 What happened following' thkt_meetinci?T 18 C., ~ l A... Well, people' told' me informally -. some of my that Creswell had'said'that this thing 20 frierids 'in the effibe. - ? ~ '. - a <21 wasgnot over yet', thktiheJwasinot finished'with.it yet, that j ~* 22 W ~ (a, he was :sendi'ng the information ~ to. some.' other'. people ;-- possibly- .7 s+ w - ~ '23 Cornmissioners or possiblyLHanauer, one of the two or both.of 24 'the.two. AndI Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. .it ? s.1 really '. depressed the f h'elh out. of me,I s_ ~ ^ because I thought' that' the(whol'eetwo or three morith thing' was" 25 ^ g y L + ~ 2 . ;, e b s. g 4 R. %: 1; 1L $$ ' 1 a -. . 0 '. C Mb ' ' - L~ ~ s ~ - -
~ ~ '48 e mgc 4-11 just a waste of my time -- a total waste of my ' time. We 2 closed out the investigation. We had anfoxist, a formal exit, ~ '3 aq with Toledo Edison shortly'after that meeting when we issued f v, an inspection report. S 0 And yourLinspection. report then basically reached 6 the same conclusions as those that were discussed at the 7 . meeting? 8 A. Yes. -I'might add that really_I thought that the 9 NRR review in December was a very signifigant thing relating 10 to this thing. The timeliness thing is not important, It is 11 ~important from a non-compliance standpoint > b c thr. 'is not 12 significant. The thing is, was.there a safety problem? And r% Q 13 I felt confident that, although I did not have the' ability I4 to look at a thermal hydraulic analysis, c'ertainly NRR does', 15 .and this thing w~asfin their hands in December, 16 0 Well as I understand it, just for-clarification, - I7 there is actually two' potential safety problems. One is the +. 18 question of whether the loss of pressurizer level'. indication - l9 is a. violation of the general design criteria, and;that was .A v 20 being analyzed by Mr. Weiss as'I understan'd-it. ~ 21 And then.there's.the ither issue of whether or not the (^). pressurizeractually[ void'sduring'the-transient. And -iti's 22 ~~ v. my understariding then 'that that was analyzedf as Pfar backJas,. '23 . 24 1975 with~A'rkansas Nuclear.- j- ' Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 ~ ~ h 2 t-e 1 g
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u g .e u= . ey... 4 . m .49; x / ,mte.5-l' l +. I Yes, and I would say,bhat,'withiWeiss') review;.' ' E>i ? A.. a x a, . 3 there'were; people involved.wh'o kn6wythe'signific~ance'of down' u 3 - (.3 scale'in'the piessure. Th'ey were also aware' that-there was. I . y .a ~ .,7 4 one case-in which,it was possib1e to actuallsicreate a'_vaiid,',~, - 3 o n 5 ~ m and th'a t' was the. case uhere,the Arkansas Nuclear l review N 6 ,comes into play,,where they say,that is'the situation where, 7 -if that occurs,, you' re going to-get a reac.t'or : coolant, system - . e.. 8 depressurization and the high pressure injection. system will; 9 start. a g , gj;j 10 y, I..would'like.to go through and ask you a. ~ r s ~ i 11 few questions to;try--and'make Fure we've got everyt.hing' covered here; f* F 6 -r m o 1O ny .n, 1. 13 ,~ ., s, ~.. Now,- you mentioned' theOfact that you?had a-meetin'g ? r
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~~ u with k W in Lynchburg. As I' unders tand i t.,c.ither.e was some L. ( -J. 15 confusion aliout theepurpo'se of[the meet'ing ' y JDo you' recall that?" Do^you recall thatithererwas ..c. 4., ~' a b ^ 17 You menti. toned' you were' som'ewhat5 surprised ~ ~~ .some" confusion'? ^ ~ t, - a4-y ~ ~ ~ ' w -.'a e 18 ltha"t th' ere wereeepre'sent'at'ives 'fr' om;'all the 'd'i,ffe. rent' utilitie m- - + g 4~~ 4 j' 8 . ~*'X,. l. Q,, ' I .Wu s e, ~there. y ;-
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..m .: n x 3: -c m w.a ~ A.V O "Well,twe,were looking-into an event thatiloccurred'N.'l + z & JY P 05 9 ~ M t l*l_ s 21 at, Toledo.= Edison.1 B&W informed,1us!-..well,LI.just. recalled 1 7 + 3 N N. 22 ' b[A.,".i ,f I -was. interested-.in knowing Lwhetherithis had" 'somethingfelse. 2,We? looked.. int'o'an#cvent that occurred at? x ',_23 y .,( e,; : ,.a
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j25 ' h other-placesf whether i t ;was. unique" tofDavis.B' esse,dand,3 .. a d.<' Q}r u - y.. '.:: m .'t.
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c ..mte 5-2 50 i 1 if-it was, had other stations looked'into it, because they 2 might have -an unreviewed safety questibn, or if it1had happened 3 .:at other _ stations,1why. the heck hadn' t they f actored in the ~ 'f q fix,toToledoEbison. 4 5 So we. requested something called site reports, i 6 packages that their field engineers put together after 7 , transients. We requested to'look at all of these, any 3. 7 8 s tia tion. 9 They told-us they couldn' t do that unless they .? i 10 ' contacted the customersi.And we said fine. :We didn't expect -ps ~ r ~ ' } 11 any custiomers to'be thereLand they were there.- - <4 4 4 ~ ' 12 _G ~ Okay. Now, you mentioned this _ issue of why the w o ~ j' O '-. <.. cia eix.'wese e eve 11ea'to e11 or eae 9 eee - oia von 1 ox et ene 1
- a 14 generic implicatiions'of this whole. issue.to other B&W' plants?
s ,w ~ 1 15 ,K I certainly was abare"of-theme I certainly was 'l '~ { W ,1 W16 aware,that B&W plants seemed :to 'haveLa" tendency to bounce
- ,.)
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18-do. ~ And we.'had[ hear'd' words likei (the pressurizer is noti: big.- + .y w a 19 "enough,-that!4the auxifeedisystem is'overdesigned,Sthings like z,;m
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~ 220 that. ~ ~ 1 o-had : rais'ed the.e +'n~cern" that 2thei pressurizer y,21
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2 s 7.. ..:f o . '. m ~ 4 ..s.. i n.c 24 ' comment, fwhich turns out: to be f al,se. The pressurizer is.. not w .A + a Ace. Federal Reporters, Inc. 7,', N, p a ;,'h. 1 25; s'mallerk lit is.just'(a Ldifferent philosoph'ylof. trying. to 'h'ang/
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mto 5-3 51 i ) y the unit'on the line a little longer and using a relief. valve, 2 which makes the level very volatile. When the relief valve. 3 opens, th'e level does one thing and when it closes it does n t, 6 's ' 4 another. And the-aux feed system has an effect on that, too. 5 G Nhen.'did Mr. Creswell' raise this concern that the. 6 pressurizer wasn't big enough? 7 A. IIe said it to me'-once or twice informally, he 8 thought it was possible that,the pressurizer wasn't big 9 .enough. 4 G Did he give you any indication that he thought this 10 11 1ought to be one of the issues that you evaluated in your inves- .r 12
- t. iga tio n?
s ,. ~. ( ) j3 'A. It wasn ' t worded 'tha t' way. It was strictly towards v , 14 ' loss of.-level indicator,being'a. problem. . 15 G There was a Mr. Anderson from.I&E Region IV that. ~ .'16 . attended all or-partLof the meeting that you had'withtB&W. r ~ . ~. ~.jp !Why w.as he there?. .v t.. J . 18 A.' Because he works in the Region 4IV and B&T'T Lynchburg r He ista vendor 19 -'is _orie Jof' his vendor inspec. ting f acili, ties. .a ,1 1, 20 inspector. n 't.. G: - IIad you called and invited him -to be ' there? ~ 21 ~.. L 22 A. No.'- I called. I-wasl told to touch l base with. g '\\l l '23 Region,IVbefofe.we went to.B&W'so that;they would not become 24 tinglued aboutiRegion III encroaching'.on oneTof.t'teirilicensees. .w ~ Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. { .25 - And I.~ ca11ed tip' Region IV and..I", told'.them that die. were involved i,., s s ~, r y, min p.
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. a.. 9< v ,c . + .,s ^ ~ i E w-L mte 5-4. 2.. , 52 R ~ i f,.O u ~ , i'n an investigdtion a'nditlIis would recfuire us going toJB&W, ) and' we didn? t feel 'tliat' we were encroaching on their : area. - ~ ' ' O 2 c / This. was an~ investigatiobrelatiUe to certain concerns. tliat A - ?. 3 'O. V 4 certain inspector'had.. 's s o 1[ And'I,got/a call'backitoLthe effect that the'date[ 5 that we had selScted was~ coincidentally going to be a date that 6 'one of their inspectors..was gol'ng Qo be,there, andLwould we' ~. +7 7 x 2 please cont'act Sim when we.."got there," asia ~ protocol 6 8 J 9 G Did yw-feel'that it'was.in fact just a" coincidence?. 7.3 ( 10 ( A. No.' e .3 I.. 11 G That it'was a convenient coinc'id'ence?' T m L 12 s A. Yes. i e [. ~ 13 0-
- What sort of dis,cussionsidid.'t'you have,with
? ~ s s ~ 2' 14 Mr.. Anderson once you got'th5re concerni'ng.this wh' ole. issue? 2 3 m '7 y. 'j Well,' I don' tirecall' exactily' what,I, said. 'He did. 2 T, g._ ' 15 A. b c w ,ask me. what' the purpose. of it was, and' I toldl him(itlwas *
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16 ~ ? ~ t, .-4 t. 17 relative'to nn investigationiwith Creswell. }; - ~
- id'.hel par ~ticipate?in'the meetings?
18 G, D ~' m, .c _ ;, si. 19 A. _.In'no7way,jin absolutely no way. 'In fact,,I would. ,j ~. s 4 g 4 _,f-jp - '1-1 ~ ;20 V% ' *,, ,e4" N not le't 'him,pSrticipate,hto bejhon~esVhitl,you',,'b,ecaus'eg .,V h a i [ ' ' 2f .Mr. Anderso'n is_ n6t _ qualifiedito be a, reactor / inspector.v.(He ',. m 'i. + ~ 4; '7 .i '. 1, ' .' 27 has,no.t.t pa,ssed 'any9 of. the ' course's. :Hewas taken'off.yinspecting ( s n. , reactors;and-.made 'a ' vendorfinspector; p, 9 e f 23 .y , 'q. w ), i; ,? ~ 4 ^ r : E., f\\ ~ ' 24 f;_ :1J was -involved :in two classes for 'about ' ten weeks > ' / ,~. Ace Federet Reporters, Inc. ' O t. ..g l '2 with, hini,q infwhich jhe ;f ailedDboth' classes., So.Mr.' Anderson + ~' 25 t
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mte 5-5 53 I was in'no way participating in the l'nvest'igation. 2 0 Did he-attend the meetings?- 3 A. No. - The.only thing he attended was -- th,e only bs) ~ v did was I told :him the, results of :our_ investiga-4 thing that I 5 . tion at the end.of the exit. He also had lunch with us. 6 0 Did he indicate that he'was at all concerned that 7 you were there or that IAE Region III was conducting an 8 investigation in his territory? 9 A. At great length. At great length, he did, but in 10 a diplomatic way. He s tated that-there -are ways to get s.g II information from vendors and-going.through RegionyIV is one 12 of-the ways. He 'had told his vendors that tli$y would only ( I' 13 see one NRC group and that we were violating thin' policy. There is a memo that was pryared :liy S 'Mr. Willse' 14 Q. 15 of B&W -- let's go off the record for as,ainute. p. mm 16 (Discussion off th'e record.) (( 17 MR. HEBDON: Let's go back on':lhg record. y....; 18 BY MR. HEBDON:- - 19 0 , For th'e record, this is a. memo'from Mr. J.T. Willse 20 of Babcock & Wilcox'to-a rather lengthy distribution list. ~ 21 The subiect is loss of pressurizer level indication,~and it's (') 22 dated March 9th, 1979.. This memo is basically a summary of %.) 23 .the meeting that-yo,u had.with B&W. 'And in this particular 24 document lhe makes'the statement that: "Mr. Foster of the-AciFederal Reporters, Inc. 25 .NRC. opened the meeting by stating-that'the purpose.o'f this e ~ ' q ~ a <,ta mmy. u -?f J+' .d MbM 1 ~
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i-e 9 + l .i w H i} lmte 5-6; ^ 54 s r-a -- 3 meeting w_as. s; ? to investigate an;; allegation by an NRC inspector. " a ~
- So that was their ' understanding of what was being, conducted..
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- ,.. La ter -onfin :the. memo',? though,,h'e says :
" fir. ' Foster - \\.-. e ~ 4 'y ~ closed the morning meeting.. IIe ' stated 'that 'as far as - h'e was- ~5 - ~" concerned loss of pressurizer level 'ind'ication pas merely'an-s ..6 operational' inconvenience and that-loss of pressurfzer level i 7 ~~ t is' not a ~ safety concern,, and; that h' e was recommending that 8 s x 3 4 this'-issue be'clo.. sed." j Do.:you recall Mr. Poster making dny such statement 10 ~. or did you' make any such stateinent?- t. ,e 11 Iftellyou,'I.caht~remembed~thespecific?words A. ~ s 1 12 .. -e' 'tha t were s ta ted. s iAn' ~ _f. ' _f d th'e :1'icensee, EB'&W,. mad'e tha t c'laim,' J. . [,, ,made that pitch...That was exactly their position. They used: ~ ja -Q ~ ~ ^ ' the. word " ope. c rational-headache.,in. the meeting l., And maybe.... 15 Fos ter -- I ' don' t - know. y I don't' remembertFoster;sayinc. I 16 j;. tha t '., E ~ ' c7 u at all. s s '7 j J x 't
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Ql ', IIe might.have said something that, it is~ your ~ i y ;;. understanding,that this is anoperationalHheadache. 4. .Q ~ '). L 18 '~ ,e l 39 s G. . Did he: givocany indic~ationLthat you.:.recallithatthe, l < f. f- '20 y ~ . +' ~ l-agreed ~with,that-position?' ~' '=~ 33 ~ - E ',It'wouldn' t _ matter 'whether he agreedfornnot,.~as - far - 7 f ^ 22 ~ ~'n. l' as I[was{ concerned. fir. Fos tet is' an investigator.. IIe -is-not? -u-s 3.. .: :r g. 23 ~ . technicall person. ~IIe.couldh't po$sibly make that conclu'sion - 3 ' 24 - Jand'ha,ve it mean'anything , Ace Federot Reporters, Inc. 25 4-
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f. s, .mte 5-7 55 ~ r1 statement to the effect that: " fir. I'oster summarized the - l 2 day's meeting by stating'that he believed that B&W had been. t (_J. exonerated.of the' charge." 3 L Do you' recall.any. comments to that effect? 4 I don't. recall thb specific wording, but it is ~ 5 _A 6 possible that that meant that Toledo E'dison and B&W had acted 7 in a timely fashion. That is that we were investigating, Land 8 . we got information on that. That " exonerated of the charge" [ 9 could be related to loss of pressurizer, level indication, 10 acting in a timely manner,. submitting information to NRR. 11 0 - Do you recall that either oflyou m ade any 'ndication or made any statements to B&W or to any,of the i 12 (-- people there that that was going to 1[e the conclusion ~of your.. V' 13 14 investigation? 15 A. I think I might have said something like tha t. 'I 16 think.I might have said something like, that, based on the fact 17 -that no informa~ tion that they ' stated was different from what 18 . SyWeiss$ad'toldmeoverthephonethat'heh'adgottenfrom a 19 them and reviewed in December. 20 G You mentioned that you talked with,?!r. I.nderson 21 and that you had c lunch with him. There,has been some discus-C . 22 sion,-- we have not ^ talked with Mr. Anderson, so this is ~ q 23 somewhat second or third-hand -- that he recalled you making 24 a statement something to'the effect of that'Mr. Creswell was Ace-Federat fleporters, Inc. s + 25 a troublemaker.and you'were there to shut-him up. u .c c n a_m. m A_ C-7
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.s .w. s . t.ng'any.such. statement? s y c t ., m, 2. y ). -Do you recall'.mak:. .~ - p;0. x, L 4 a. ~,.,.... 5 ~ A
- fActualiy}l; don!t.,But I could have.
'I.could"have "6 lvery easily said it. O 5- ^ ' Gt 3 ' ~ 4 1 7 .x 0 Did you1 feel that that.~:was inLfact the case,cthat; m f , m 1,. S ' ~ .,c " 8
- Mr. Creswell-was a troublemaker and thatione of'the; reasons
'~ 9 you were there was to. shut him up? gj ; L - A -iOne of the reasons we were there was to shut' 10 t. m - 4 r. =
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- p. one way. or 'the other,s and that-is - the' way< Il 4
~~ ...t c yy-12 characterized the investigation,thecause! reswell was. making C ~ p ta.iots o"f charges:ag in $[ch,of'peopleandhecaused;alot I ^ 13 - e . ~.- t - And;I-looked; 14 .of? tensio'n in the office'for'a. number'of? months. ~r L. + - .- m ~ 15 at this whole'. thing'possibly-a.s putting m end - to it.; One-' .e eq 'He._was 16 . way or another, we.were goirig.tol shut Creswell up. ~ *.:, +,: : e ,r w 17 either going 5to berri'ght or wrong. m 1 ( ~ ' ~ r, . ;... 3 k.,. 18 Q. From what. source-did you'getsthis perception that ~ -.~. ~ the purpose -of thirinvestigation or one of. the purposes of ' 19 u. the investigatiobwas to shtit up Fa. Creswell?; i '20 y - 21. A Well, that is my conclusion. 1Thatfisl definitely X - ~ c.. c s-2... my perception,.to put an end # al L ofithETinfightingthat' 22 s s 3 a 23 had o.ccurred over ainumba e! onths,. myyperception~~ a' lone.- ^ ~, N-N .a Ace-Federet Reporters, Inc. BY, IIR. POLSOM. E " ? R. - .-.'. 2 4 ' 3. e, '7 b- .25 ' ) O '. - . Would(you.have-been'.as ; well satisfied' if.y_ou, t had 1 s .u s' ,7 e ..,y s 3; .[ ^ n g. y 7 . y[ j,
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+ .w-e -s n. .c s... . 53: .a p, jm 'mte 3-9. ~t discovered one.or,more or:even all of_his" conc. erns were correct? q " 12 L _I woul'd have been very happy if-we found anything;, d c' 2 y .c k 3-lb'ecaus'e' when :you\\" don' t find anything -- I, when I don' t' find ' ir .c 4 anything, I wondered'if ILlooked'everywhere.What'fam I"doing ~ ^ ' wrong? Y'must be on the wrong path. 5 4 = 6 It is hard_,'to-conduct an investigation and not fin,d
- a
'7 anyth'ing,fto come.up[ with a-negative finding, when s'omeone 8 else has 6 me up with a conclu'sion that there is a finding. r iIt is much more difficult. . 10 -We didn't-find anything that was different than 11 whathad:alreadyfbeentoldus. ' ~ ~ D. You weren't, in your own mind, pursuing'the' 13 inves tigation "to achieve a negative resul't, or were you?- ' + a ja n A. Absolutely not. I-would have-loved to'have B&W + have those other people at the meeting because-of"the fact 16 that they hadn't told these other people. I wouldchave loved 17-the. situation where this -thing happened at Davissesse and B&W.never. told'any of their'otb r pladts and[the! reason that I8 m-7, = ~ 19 they were(there.was-because now they were'-hearing'.it f-r the
- t. o 20 g'irst time.>
21 - That.is entirely opposite of what happened.' -I- '22 ^ ^ J ~ t "mean, 'that ' wotild" be a-big deal. ' That would. definitely be a- 1 q... s;] 1 s.- r 23 situation ~ wh'ere.we.discovere.d' a.situati'onat -the plantif hich - w 24' i. Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. 'six, seven, J eight.1other p3'ints.- That.is:a' big- -will affect .g 25 , deal. mThatqis the reason;I thought:they were;there. 'And it '( 1 ~: '
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n .a 3 mt,e 3-10 Q M E. i ? w. t s. n ~. n a -.s, s '.l + bh. ' ' '$ ~ 1' .isffthe Shposite effect'that we;came upon'.' ^ ] ) q ^- m ' _ E.' x, .m ~ o. l 2 -m" 'BYEMRT HEBDON: 3- 'f' u.: m, t s 3 - G g _I . D, . Why would.you:.have'6een so happy ' to find s'uch a c u.)c ^
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,q ,1 ; ~.. That would have been alna'jor f[nding.. 'The I,nves.,ti'- 5 ., A. [ W-6 gation would have taken some depth 'torit. Tlhere wo ld have 7__ been something to -lookTintio. The investigation maybe would. '8 ' have gotten off;the ground. - n" m,, 9 _ I.'just. felt:that we weren't getting anywhere,nwe + c w s. .q weren't getting any new1information., I thought that that would 10 h 3$ 11 Ihave been#a maj'or[ finding. ~ a y > <We;j..,c a s 1.1.] 12 G- 'In. hindsight, with the benefit of..the TMI.2 accident +I J ~;.:. ~'
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E 13 and'the various5 things that have.been discussed;.asta result o , o,.. T 14 of-it,1what' significance do~ you - a thribute-to 'thei concerns n '4 4; ] >~. .m- -y ,+ Y E ', E 15' - raised by Mr. Creswell? - i b y 4 >4.4 s t 1 n l f-b... _y .16 A. That he is a' very doggedJindividual and-that he is ' .,g +- I *' y- .a F M - y, l,. 1 A, Q '* ..very 's tubborn~, ~and1th'at on' e he' comes upon a conclusion ' it" is .17 c E , q : ~.t ..v. .. ~, gQ s. a Im'os ti impossible t to. : convince'#him'of'any other? conclus' i~on'; "a~nd? < p, =s g,, that, as?far as the leyel_.indicato'rswas concerned,7 ~ 4-19 o ,.g 1oss.off;, f. w. p(essurizerflevel.Jindication,-I;didn'.t think1the cooldow. .. w p ., '. ^ 20 n. w 1: m .e N aspects of.iit'were thahjbigfafdeal.' I didn't lookiaththe;other: 21, , 7 a. - 3 s u, T don't'know his, involvement in the other side of.it.- f& -
- 422 aspects.
(, ' ~ ., ~ 'i < ~ n 2'3 ,Ol -What do yotinmean;by'~ the other. aspect? : ' .c .- 24' - A;.. UThe Septembernevent,. _~ t if the SeptemberJevent-is. . 1 e ' 1 25 similar.7 ""N-?f.,, * ' g ?' x Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. ^ .' f,j' f ^k ,x-I;would say'that his involvemedtLwiEhi,that is1 ;% 4_
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- probably--- is'more significant, if he did anything at all.
-Io ~ s /. S + 2 don't-know whatzhe did.. e 3 0 ' As I, understand _it, Mr. Creswell requested;that O' [4 t'his analysis be.'done byj Toledo islison and-s biequentlyf by ~ 3: 5 PtW. fAnd"it is'my ' uhderstanding" that it took some time for ~ ~ 6 diat analysis to be. prepared. ?And.then he had some: concerns T,, 7 and a second analysis ~was. conducted. 8 'Did you,look,into*that particular sequence of s 9 events at all? ~ 1.0
- A.
(Yes, I thinkLI did. -I' don't think that.tney wanted I dori' t th' ink they tho'ught. they ha'dY ) 11 .t'o d'o th'e analysi~s. I i a, _. a. 12 problem. I think that they were told bylB&W, you don't'have j r +. 4 p - () 13 a problem, we'already looked into it. cAnd IOthink that' a 14 Creswell's.wanting'the analysis required;them t' feithe-o -15 delegate an-engi$ecrJ or. hire B&W to do"some things.which they. m 4 16 didn't wan't to do,-because th$y;didn't think.they had a ~ j x 17 problem and it would-be resolved'anyway.
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- because-it did not include ~the.; operation of the makeupjpumps,;
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- In?oner of the, analyses they did. {Sothe"ywere 3
~ T.~ ' told.to subtract it'.off. w (~') ' u./ G_ ~They'liad; to do it again' without-the makeup. pumps? - .p '( n ". : n. $~ '5 y ,L-t A, ,Yes.- .c 6 0 If, Toledo Edison and B&W did,.in~~ fact;-- this[ word, a m - 1 ~ ;may[be'allittle toohstrong,K.but stonewa'llMr. Creswell on-t
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c 9 ~ any< sort of a1 finding or a citation for' lack. of timeliness? ~ y [ That particular -issue, just taken'on itsiown m~rits? e
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.- ". 'l, A Stonewalling?- k' ,n' 12 0 The tfact; that they hadlndt provided.to.?an inspector b }3 an analysis'that he nad requested. 'Wou tlia't be a_g ds '? ,w a ~; 'for: a' citation?. $. d..* 1 'I am_adresident d M - a 3 ~ t, v. F ' D A - There are ways 'to get that. 1 ~ 16 ~. ~+-1 inspec. tor, and'.if -I' want [.something, I[get it'..I-don'thresortj, l g^ n y' 6g '~ f.q. '. 4- .s 1 to.non-compliance Etoi.get 'alpiece' of Tin ~ formatio.n, becaus.~' W '. M e x ,c e - c l 18 that swill b.enth'e 'lastr i5iecs,of 'information'..I? will7everi'geit-E + 1 -m .a e' + 39~ p :., ;. . ;t. m tm 9.- from' that,' licen.., ,'4 see. ~- ~ _ _ ~ 5; 2: 20 . w,, 6 - ~
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j J0_ -Q. Well~,Pwh'atisort'of mechanisms (w#ere available to, .a 3 - r g .t i c, .-g m. c s m 21 Mr. Creswell to cetothe-analyses;that;heiwan.ted?E He had r, *. v - e ~, n _ e -, n-reques, tedi it, and 71t 'was ~ndtiforthcoming.' A + 2- ,.n. w: '~ s,., : - ~. L 9 - < a);g, _ +, -
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Listen, iI ', e' :'never',had " that '.problemM,Either 1he t-S.. . f 5 -^ v N-1- y d e e. - a y ~ -t di'dnittreguestfittin?the right' way, or he gotithhm) very.. angry;. ! d$eI eden i Reporters, Inc. i 1 -yp ' _i F x> ^ ~' 'f. 6i_ c o - 25 a w-at 'his imanner. or. his technique.1 They..were. nok onihiM_ side./ -. ' 1, t ,,g c.., e. 4.,,;. y. Q 'y h Kf. r - i s ~..h ^ -s '_ } 'Q. v 's j, f t-4. a "s, >f,~ , r 3 '*h r [ -q 1 7 km j \\*y .gi. ei r K... -, - 8 i e-f {y[
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, rb m ~ 61-rngc-6-2 1 They were fighting him every step of the way. They were not-2 going to give him anything they didn't have to. They were 3 going to,make his life very difficult. And that is a problem i t 4 that a person who does not communicate effectively can have 5 in an inspection assignment. 6 0 What led you to the conclusion that they had that-2 7 sort of relationship with him? 8 A Well, they told me, when we got on the subject, that 9 they disliked Creswell. 10
- 0 And that they were going'to make life difficult for 3.,
all him?c 5 ~ 12 A. , no t tha t. But let 's face it, I think -that 's p. '~ (j 13 what happened, because they were very operi.with us. 14 G Could Mr. Creswell have cited Toledo Edison ~for~not providinglthIe, analysis that he requested? 15 Could he have made 16 that, art; item,.of non-compliance? 17 i A.l - Iffhe asked for something -- let me put it this way. 18' I want to think of the ~ federal regulatiore and see -if -there,is a.. 19 a non-compliance.- Regarding non-compliance,-when you issue a. 1 20 non-compliance, the'lichnseehastorespondTin'20or~30 21 days. If they don't respond,-that is failure.to' respond,'and >? '. O 22 that.is non-compliance. He 'd'id not have 'a non-compl.i.ancei 9If' ~ \\ j.. 23 he requests-information, they have to give-it' tio -him, 'bui.. the. 4 24 time. limit is ' up to negotiation. <And specifical'ly, arid I ' don ' t Ace-Federd Reporters, Inc. believethereisanon-compli$1nce'ifthey[ don'tcomplywith 25 J ~ .c , y (, ~ _jt -U;
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.~ i m ~^' ~ .G So he can request ~it',:and' theoretically they've ~ ' '3 got to submit rif at< som'ef point 'is -time 7 but helcould' not'bave. I ~ n .a s cited them for f' ailing to, provide sometNing th'at [w'a's i c.., ~ N ~ ~ 5 ] requested?. 4 6 i A. - He could go another route. .He-could'say this. ~ 7 -li.censee eventithat you sub'mitted,'as-fa'r as I'm concerned, . r, .- + - c. .8 the resolution is riot valid.until you-supply' this'l analysis.~ 9 You hAve'this licensee' event that ha'~not.been reviewed, as s faras.I'm' concerned., ; And ~ he would go lthat route ; ~11 O' And so you feel.there was some mechanism available a -12 tio him '.to-cite themifor a 'non-compliance,.if ' not directly for; 7, 3. .J 13 having failed to p.rovi.de - = ~ 1 Id A. An inadequateLlicenseelevent; report' review,..I' don't 15 know.if it is non-comp'liance. I don'tithink it is. 'He could 1 $ L. 16 say, your review 3.s.not adequate; do~it'again; IItake. objection .m t ~ e ~. 37-to it.' And then<he could: send the whole thina through:to' /- i 1 18 ~ inadequate; review: ? .SRR --- this.is an es G' - In~ your. opinion, how did the' issues that.were. M 19 ,f 4 } j' .g, ~ . g 2f, ra. wilse'd) by Mr Creswell be con'cerned aboutithe ' loss of, 1 s m 21 7 pressurizer'leyel? ~ How-does that issue ~ relate,to.the acciden'i-t , ~ 22. s i~ i at1TMI?'? .s 3 2 .c It is Athe~ opposite ef fect. I have~ given ; that a _ lot. ,,23 ~., A, e ~ + c [,, A. -;24 of thought.,~I think.a-number of times that Foster and.I were j .,lc ^ W;! 1. 'Ac> Federal Reporters, inc. q ^ one of:the lastfpeop,le that' looked.into this,;and rdaybei?the. f.N -25 u m ...3 ~ , - s.(- 3 ,<l j,gn gl-, ; ,r- ~;y . g.e. ; 2 3 k. m i g., 1 t f 5 k 4,. <p. ._ ; ' i 2, L gi ~.,, . * (L
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- f. -
m p 6 I don't think tha't the~cooldown transients relate-to 7 Three Mile. Island ~at'all. That:is what I think. 8 O Is it ' your opinion, then, that you;would-have"had 9 (to, go. rather far:. afield froni what you understood-the charte( 8 T' 10 of your investigation to'.get' into 'an; issue':that~ would,,in ' fact,j 3-11 relate tofthe.accidentist'TMI? .., J 1 d..(e;.) _ i If you' take. the November:gvdrit;, yhichlwasEthe 7 12 A. p, - L s. ~s h. -13 ,cooldowns.and then the September. event,.'which:..was the= opposite.
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14 ef fect', and-you putin.them on either' side' of' each lother, --- ~ $ n-i v s 15 if there is' someboily who ~'is review'ing both of. them, he may;get. ?
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<s a generalisense that - therec is some, thing pong withc the. 16 < v. c..
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... 2 ~ 17. pressuriz6r.. It.is..not' acting properly ; jin,som'e cases,' it1,, .. 4. ij N S. J ~ 18~ -goes 'toohighFand in'; some' cases it. goes too low. "And he.? .. ~ s. ~~ a, -19.wouldicomeLto that conclusion, probably because.iti~is-not i p i .m - a -~ 20 charact'er.istic of a4Westin,gh.ouse; plant ~to.do that-o' 2n th'e A ( l J g 7 v
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'2i = s f pressurizerilevel. lAnd'thatLis.the most-familiar plant. so', .xfs L . c A 22 he's comparing 1it to a Westirighouse. 3 ~ ff a N'. M cI wascnotfin,thel position 1that'I'could.flook,at both of;," ~ ~ .23 ~ ' L' W, , _ f , 21 these. ' events. fI wasionly on one side. -I',was:at the bottom.. x. v[..[-4 Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc. )_ 4 ', ~ I ha'd.notrcr'ossed'over.' Yes,..it ;would ; haw been-l far a field. 3 j 7 - 25 ~ .c. ' y. +, ' Tg ,1 Q:{. -4,~, f.. y 7j, e v 's ,t. -1o, 6 ... y <,3 7 g _.
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~ q 4 64' V T 1 i mgc. 6--S - of. our' investigation to go into. the other event without some L 2 reason,- without Creswell. saping -- if Creswell h"adisaid to me 3 .when we sat down, there is something wrong.'with the pressurizer; w 4 sometimes Lit [ goe's too,high ; sometirnes, it.goes-too -low'; ' inE his. t r 5 case it did this';. in this case it.'did,this; that's not right; 6 they had' boiling in the core -- this and that; you'd better 7 look at:the whole operation of the pressurizer - -it would 8 have~been a different story. We'.would have got' involved 'T in both of these events, and2 I'would have had-to comment.on 10 'that. II But I didn't. - I.did.not look'at it that way. 'It was IT specifically segmented off into the cooldown portion, the. A S (_) 13 cooldown trans'ients. 14,~ 0 And as I understand.it, that segmenthtion wasia a ~ 15,' result of your~ discussions with Mr. Creswell and Mr. Fosteri" 4
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16 when [you originally established the scope of' the investigation. ~ 2 17 A.J(.That's.right. And like I said, I.wish it would
- . J.
-' z s18-have be'en structure,i. the othhr way now. Maybe/we would'h' ave. n .a .l 19 had a pos'itive fihding. Maybe'.I would have agreed.with~him, C 20 becsuse:I'would have been1 forced toilook at/the other event, 4 4 21 and I would hav.e. '+. been if' rce'd to commentfon it. o - 5 s 4 3 m = f] 22 - 0 -What I would like toldo next is tolask youtsome v 23 questions that are much more general, and we had.a~ set of ~ ^ 24 rath'er, general questio'ns aboutxI&E f and NRR, that.we ' re; trying ~ - # ~ f-Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 1] 7 I 125 to ' ask of[ a saupid 2of people that are involved with the-I'&E: m; + ^ n ~ ' ',. 3 -s. c_ y 1 -e b , i g( c
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] '"*>[ ~.2 _t 6. ~. m. ~ >.. 65 f mgc 6-6 1-. process., fAnd byn i'rtue 'of the fact th'at you. are here ' for.this v ,3 4 A: 2 .Creswell issue, you have been included-in-our. sample. p, f.c
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'3 What.- is your general porception 'of the relationship. r. n - -n s '. _, x. s a,4 between~I&E Headquarters'and the I&E-regions?t - -i }, .x V A. v .5 (My general perception -- could you be more: specific? ~ 6 0' Well, do you feel.that I&E Headquarters and I&E' ~ - 7' regions have.a.Kcooperative rela'tionship or'an adversary. ~ 8 relationshi ? ~ P .9 J A. I think that,I&E-Headquarters is totally useless, ~ ~ 10 ..y ~ ~ from a technical: standpoint. The technical guidance, that we s ~ y,x + 11 get'from1I&E, Headquarters is worthless.- They.do~not have d.hei'a j - - o . _... g: s- + 112 finallword i,'sNRR ',,does. hnd it is.just'alwa'ste.of; time in',the'. i. %.. i .o ~ .c m s m.. : ~; e .b. - 13' ch.Ain' o'f c$inmanIC Whende. identify something,' we have :to 1 I P v c, s .p s e ~ . f... _r t ,y send' it up througliil&E Headquarters.G They;have to evaluate,,., !i ' 14 e: m 15 it, ' determine. they do not'have ther expertiise ;to solve it,5.go ? 9
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4 .,c b 16 acrosstthe streetp formally 'sion it.over. Then it gets
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17 billetedc'to somebodyTin['NRR7.LThey.they do.it. There's at fi~nal[' l b t OS P ~ - .It's se,ntdover toiI&E, and.then'it'comessback-~.to 18-result. n + 2 , n n u. 4 ~ g pl9 the' regio'. e ,y i n. ,s 2 - u E.cn _ g 7, m ?. ' This ~yearia guy gamed _ Ed ' Jordan itasnthe: job of being the. -f .20 ~ -m. 1 20 conduitf for all.of the ;1nformation. - He\\isifunctioning-a lot e + ~ .v o .a - w.. ,[- , e
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- 22l better than the; guy. befoie : thaE.which was-Seyfrit._ We di'd n.o.t g j
~ 23 ge. t ~ resolution.)from S'eyfriO forr! years... Tor. years., It. was' - a v, a.. ? / y ,4... . 24 just?like throwningi,lt in..th,e trash,can'..' ? ! _ '.. ,r " Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. f Y. -y ,,.' T 4- -. ~ s c
- e hd i s o I' ha,ve,' n.o - good.'i feelings for.any. kind- ^ofJtechnical i
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dr e 66 I .mgc 6-7 ability that we get out of I&E. Headquarters. And not only 2 that, it.is occuring every day now.- The bulletins that 3 are being. issued right now, that the power plants are inspect-s 4 ing,. they are not well-thought-out. People are spending a lot 5 of money and exposing people, and the bulletins are being 6 changed, and the licensee c~annot get an idea .s to what he. 7 has to do to meet these. bulletins that are coming out of I&E 8 Headquarters. 9 Q. Are these the bullet-ins associated with the TMI_-2 10 ~ accident? t 11 -22 1 A. The seismic evaluation,'.the anchor bolt evaluation, 12 the bor" water piping investigation They are expensive.' 13 The consume man-rem. They are not w ll uthought out, and there I4 is no one,you can call and say., what do y ou want us to do. 15 I don' t know-who to call (witen they. coine up-to me.and say, what do you want.us to do) whabis,the. definition of a - .16 17 stagnant line -- one that flows onceva year, twice a year, . a ~ / IB. pre-op monthly?- Who do we call?,fI-don'tTknow who to call-I9 .? anymore. I don't have the: slightest? idea of sho to call. 20 0 What.. function do you feel] I&E Headquarte s does - 21 perform? ~ 22 A. Program implementation. They send us down cookbooks (S 23 on what to inspect. 24 ~ 0 Do they do that effectively? Ace-FMetal Reporters, Inc. 25 A. They send.out enough cookbook's. There are certainly Whm - 3Dh ;;tn i I
~ g. ~ c,. , x,u ! c x s- ~. z s. e;u s 3-a s f. ,t y ', q_ g n,< ec#a, 2 e ,n ~ a, m ~ Q ?, 6.7 : mgc$6-8 I ~ a ' lot of ' themi. i ~ y ~ + A.. + s y r +' , y, - e. j ~ 2 O Are-theyfany good? ? 3. n c m a 3 [MR HbBDON: Let'ss go'off the~ record;-- u J ~ q J.a t - - \\', O ' ; (Discus'si.on o f f th'e"recorld. ),' d - ' 3-4 e .I, t 5 ~ gg, gjBDON: + t J BdcE onithe~ record. O. ,6 BY MR. HEBDON: + 7 B. Do you feelfthe' inspection packagesIor the-9
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8 procedures you get from?I&E Headquarbers e.re of any.va' ue?' ', l n 9 J A. Well, theyc tell you. where to look,7and thatilsi ^ a s .~ c 10- 'Thats is all.ithey_ 'do. They set upfa' f'ramework.E _ 'about all. g 'N ?!.y c11 t I don'.t bel'ieve-in any of the formulas they'have four"is " .= t. f ~,. p '12 this area, ~ six -in]this area, ' one ~ in this area - ' I think that's T f,, 13 ~ t'otal waste of-time. The only, - th~ing I get _out Jof. the j h .i,_ _ Jg - a. x., h ~~ II module $n#are for calibration.: Itsis' importanh to llooklati the L 0 7 ~,, .;c i 15 primary coolant' sys, tem, something.1 in~ the : secondary system,. ? ' E, b Ci ~16 something in the. electrical s'ystem, and ycu'.ve.;got,to;checki m. w x , - ri a. y'*. . eb ' - ~_ r : * * - - ** l. r ~ >s~ 4,!, \\ n .J 4 117. to.make'sure that2 they ' ve done the thing right',r that ' their : > f,- .e,
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~ ,:s. vu n e procedure :is[. right',0andLit.isfapprovedf andy that' stuff.. .18 D. 3; y q + - j. g - - 19, But'iti1siju'st'a frabework. That's alll.: Yciu{could be? ,i ,~ ~. J- .q,,s j. .f . m, y- ~- 20' an idiot' andi check 'off. the [ boxes., , s.~. - e; -l .c F ^s, - 3* 7 ..{ ag. ' 'i r-y y ,) 721
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G. Have'you ever been'dishouraged(from using.strongly;j;< a s a;,
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23 found? - ~ i "~ . '.. 6 j' 'M .. s. x,, e. n an "1 '24 A. -dsing these statements where?fsj %-~ w ~
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1. . +.. - -,,4i ~ ~ v .J .C / , GI. .I f u s 25 -6' In inspection, reports 7 in' letters _or memos,;$.6l I f ..c a 1 =+ i -..i s I o . 'j* } + s e~ r 5 .1- + i .; 3; -m I 'i ?,9,;.l. 2,
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s. e ..<3 g c 4 'a +> t.... x, \\ supervisor $'. Has : anybody ever given an' inspection' report-I mgc 6-9 back t' of you and 'said,. you know', let's ' tone this "down! a 'littls;' '. ~2 t that sou$ds la little. too[infla.mmatory? .I q y 3 i u .[ _ {. ^ ~ T. 7 t,~.^- 4 , 3, . yegy y s ,+ 0 _t w ,s r g y 5 Frequently?.- 3,. A. ' Well,CI don!d do that anymore~. 6 = -.*^ 7 ~m Could you expand on that a little bit?
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+ .m c y Well, when I was an>-ihspec^ tor'in 1974Jand11975', 8 . A. a (I my memos %iere very' inflammatory, extremely inflammatory. 9 _ e 10 was so, frustrated in 1974"and l9754 that I wrote,a> memo'about,. i ~. 'e$ b containment isolation'valvesfand what-I foundd-- I couldn' t 7 ~ o ,,. j w =, b + ~.w 4A 'l see anybody ?doin,g anything 'about?.it r-
- and -I sent the memo,;
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,c ~ completelyagainstcompany'polby['notthhouhour; command 4,, ~ 13 o ,.~ y=. '. Id Jwhich was'Seyfrith-- it$went througdhy bol.s<5hd'through? 4 4-e. g. A ~ I sent'it - 'Seyf ritf-. I ' ent 'it. right' to fa guyjnamed,;g'edes,co. .- 15 s o- - u y ith a buck. slip saying how can you-allow \\ his; situation to' ~ t 16 w .{ {- }, '74 Nnd 475 I'm's"a ing$now.3 These are
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T - :,, ?> .P -p (. ,ym... -3 h;;a. . M "' 19 Tedesco'6alledjup'JSeyfrit'and'said,lyou've7got;a'probleme f .w , t.- p v.- s. . x ,A. ,3 4_..: tv o g -r Seyf'rit dallediup my' boss,Jand my'. boss ' call'eb ','..; in _ your._[ shop.', 20 5 .s u.. . v .m ~ ~., ~ cu 4 y. .., t '21 Ime;in' and' toldime ~ th'at"if I:. was igo,inU..t'o doYthis "a. gain', that: s ,m.. i, v-> A.,,,. (, ot) 22 'I,.had.b'e'tter get? t6e. h' ell' ou't o f this ' region, tihat/I' did ~ n m. 23
- work ?for' NRR,. 'I; worked for I&E,i and E that.. they = wouldn '. t(
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C ~ s Aca-Federal Reporters, Idc. . +;q. F, W w 25 ^ a ., e. =y -. a-u .a m. me [< .)', J N s y 'm;. + - 7 e c. fg 2 c m-8 j; ~;,;. ,x r. + AflY... jf'O ' ,k f }ls j j ' _._ y f +,. s R ' M~~~ , s y ". '..n Q,Q.4. &l 4 ,. - _. l:Q,+.. ; _ b x WL,.u:a ~ ..n
y ~ 69 mte 7-1 That was a very, very significant thing in my 'I 2 development. What was the subject of the memo? 3 Q. _O 4 n,- That cor tainment isolation valves leak, that.the integrated leak rat e test or--the leak rate of a tenth of a 5 percent per day is really kind of a funny number, because 6 the valves -- each refueling obviously is many more times 7 8 that. then? llow do they pass the test, 9 0, They have to fix them before they do the test. 10 A. They tighten the valves up before they test. llow long af ter they have conducted the test do k 0, 13 they stay tight? because they only are
- 14 A.
Well, that is hard to say, required to do isolation valve testing once per refueling 15 So if a refueling outage happens to coincide with 16 outage. an integrated leak test,'they are permitted.to fix the valves 17 and run the intecrated leak rateitest; 18 prior'to the test, it could be 12. to:18 months then it would not be 18 months, I9 before they would do a LOCA leak rate test again, and they 20 i . ould find out that some valves' leak aga n. 21 w In other words,fI had gone into the region from 22 'I was in the technical group' th'at did calculations on - 23 11RR. accident analysis.that used containment integrated-leak rates 24 that were ratchetingi people Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. of a tenth-of.a percent per day, 25 r + g /
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+ ~,v.. 93 2^% ~ .g , s 70 ' s mte 7-2 ~I f 7 tci. 0 5. And here I find that some of<these valves leak .1 "2 - 10, 20 percent per day. And it was not being. silly of me to ~ 3' ', 3 ra'tcih'et these people. into a Ltenth of a percent per day. It m. ~ n - +: ~ 4 k .4 ?really was meaningless.. Somebody~should dofsomething about' W s f S'
- some'ofithese valves that
- were leaking, and I wrote the memo; 6
.to'that effect. 7 0 EDo youth' ave alcopy of that memo in your files? ~ 8 A.- Lyes. c 9 G Could'you provide that to us? w 10 A. Sure. I've been waiting;for'_' years. ~-t. ~ 11 G .Was anything ever cbne 'with the technica,e.c._. on.m. nt l te .( I M 12 of the memor? + 13 A. Containtent integrated leakirate te ing<is ~ ~ ine O m, V. ~, 14 art..LOCA testing:of, valves is a veryEdifficult area, because 15 you can tighten a~ valve up to pass lthel test, bu'tTase s.conias 4 .. f i 16 the plant heats-up'it is' going to get, loose. Andwhat}'m: tryirig to 'say : 1-I,a on' t-know. whother -leven the fdct,thatiit d 17 c. o. e -s. 18 leaks has any. meaning. The' test may not be any good. The-z. r ~ n ,'= e .e +.. 19 requirement may not' be,' tealistic. fM 4 ~ ~ 20 But nobody.is dealing withJthe fact that they a.re'_ + rr. I want.somebody ' 21
- getting.these..d increpancies all' the time.
_v z to. do' something-with.the; discrepancy, either say., hey'. - ',I f 22 \\d i. 23 .willL giver you a typical example. On'akBWR therr,Jis something ..v r
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.3 v = l 24 , Ccalled ahfeedwater. check valve-that-always7 is in water. It: ,, Ace. Federal Reporters, Inc. I {.
- always-is in water..'
And ch'eck valves. 'arh not 'made to survive" D .7, 25 t '.' , w -.. a s g 1 ,.Aga q_ c 4 'r ~ s .<u s ~ 4 s. ,, 9 - .s l3 _,g_ p,..g.g g. p g_ . [ ' 41 IIh d- +; Up *q; l 4Q, .( [. ., g 1,,
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. S 3.c., ' ri-: e-s. s D '- ,~ ~ ' O. ) m 3 ' mte17.-3 - A 771 - s. '^ .n .an. air ~t'estct'oo well.' They are going to leak.wh'en-you-pump ~1 i f L' - 2 them'up with air, if they'are always-in water. They are just-
- n~s An'd yet,LBNPs are always. required to 3
" not ' mad,e that.way. 3 drain themr feedwater : lines. and: do a tiesti on the feedwdter- ~ . 4 4 check valves, in which they are found-to-le'akt 30 -40 percent. 5 4 ~ 'And 6 Now,'that is far in excess of the containment; i 7 if,,in effect, that isolation valve is definitely required for conta'inment' intc!grity and' all of this,c then they 've got uto put 4't 8 .another valve in there,.or they ought to change'the test to 9 10 allow ~ water testing...But just don't.-- the nonconformances .i ~ .r. a. Fe s 11 are never closed'. <,,j - f' '. J. 3 7+ 12 0 They leak eyery tim.e they're tested? . er. ~ J (,/ 13 E.,. Right, every. ti,.,me.:- And they are - big leaks. And -O ,.L y 14 the~ licensee says: :Well, :it's stupid to drain : this line. It ~ Jis always going to hhve wat~er['in it. But 10:CFR'50, Appendix J 15 a. 7 ~ 16 requires us to air test itv There 'is no end to it. w> 8 Y... S 17 ~ 0, ~ 1, think we discusi[ed this "next" question to some r+: x ,-W nse.,,, ~ . extent earlier,c bitt;L.will~ bring 'it up;again here againj just 18 .n .s .~.y. c s c 19 4 l ~ for dompletieness.' O-f^ s i =,.
- D dfyou f' eel that you'.could freely contact.'.
20 s' technical. reviewers in 'other of fices: to discus's. technical" i . 21 e 7 22 ?: concerns? .{ ; a + ~ i" i A.K-.I Y_es. (But"Iewillitell oulsomething. I was .j .23. .. +. g,.. l 3 24 completely aware. that anythinig that I cjot overf the phone - '- ' y o ~ .U ^ ~ i ,s ~.. -r e ' Am-Federal Reporters, ine really didn.'tlcarryJmuch weight:Unless;I.got'.it'iniw(iting'. 25 ~ eo
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mte 7-4 72 1 G But you could call them up and discuss technica'1, 2 issues? e 3 A Yes,'I have no problem with that. i 4 G Does.I&E review plant procedures? 5 A Dos I&E review plant procedures? Do I review 6 plant procedures? 7 -G Well, in a general sense, does I&E review them at 8 al'l? And'in the more specific sense, do you review them or 9 did you review them? 10 A In a general sense, there are requirements in the 11 program to do some procedural review. Some~ procedures have 12 to be reviewed' periodically. 13 G . Wore' you involved wit h that part of. the inspection, 14 either. as a resident inspector or orior to that'when you were 15 inspector here? 16 A. ' Occasionally, yes. I'7 G What was the purpose of that. review? 18 A. 'Well, I would say the purpose is to ensure that ~ 19 the procedure is an adequate procedure. On the other hand, 20 there may be some cases where I'm not even skilled enough to; 21 review that procedure. 22 G Would you review it 'anyway? - 23 A ,Yes, sure. I-mean,'if.you look 'at'a' procedure -- 24 let's sayfrefueling. Let's say you are doing a refueling Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 inspection and have to review tha_licens~ee's procedures for b d9idW!! s i H
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t g $.Y / s% i mte~7-5, ~ H .73 .s .y + i ' ' t.g 7 - ~' ^ j - + + . 1 'movingifuel. 9I'm noti $n; expert iin moving ~ fues ' 'I'iOnot' an - ~ ~ ~ ., sp. 2 '[ expert: in the craneloperation.. So I think more<'or. less{you: ~ W5 3
- are 3ust;really looking';for theifact of1the' existence.~of i
~- r, a x.. ~ a h,. y 4 _ proc. edur,er. a well ithough. t out3 document that '.doesn ' t ' look'.like ..~ r.-
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i% s y.- ,.,Y.. s A ( 5 iitcis ha$.ked up,ichanged, that' its was-reviewed. by the st'ation' 6 review committee, whidh is composed.of people that'are-supposed ~ 7 to know whatjthey're doing,'and that'they: reviewed.this d'ocu. A 4 ? 8 ment, read it, nndJ that they h' ave'no problems with it. 9 '0 Do.you ever review procedures from the perspective- .,s 10 of what the' operator-' sees.and what he.may or may not do: as 'a = w a. a.
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11 result of what he-sees?; w 4A W; s . p c I have never. personally reviewed emei gencygperating - 12 A." c ~ c m.:..:w-t !n -=~ Q 13 ' Procedures.. I - h. ave never got involved in those)documen s.% ;
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- - arr ~ 14 %0 Why is that? '7 L.- ~- x s,., g-15 .V A. I'.have had.n,o reason to yetIoto gofup'to'a,n y, <I ~ 16 emergency operating, procedure at' Zion _and,just reviewpit. pI' ,e s r 17. 'might;do' that as an' independent inspection, but-it is Enot in } ( c .:. 4 t. J. -18 &the progr'am.- m f .t m. i .+ _ ,4 ~19 Q. Aren'_t you requi'redyto' review 1 emergency, operating' n. ~
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~ ', ~ .L m J 20 procedures, I think soihe" percentages of them or one-quarter of a 2'; themieveryjyear?' 'N ) y ^ m ~ 4 s .q y,+ . 22 ,.A. There'is,an' emergency module,fandcI'.'would havelto" f V ' ' ; / 2 ,('fl' M 0 Ib W h.,,,j 23 ?lo,ok at it -to'.get' the1 detail's. I ~ haven' t done.it y' t. I ', E," e ..~ s [24 -haven't'~done it yet! Ace Federal Reporters, Inc. ~ + + cC . 25 We might revi'ew 'cha' ges 'to' them, ' but~ --C n 5 7 <s 3 4 y ( ...<4 .vJ u \\ t / , * } .R'. w ~ , + pg,; _, g .,,r Q ;, y. s <; ? ~ 3 fN; v 5 ?. [S,,- T [ Y , ; i+, ,,.b
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4 + ' ' - > j' ".., ('**f <* y 'a. t s- .+ in. .u, : - y 7 3= m a,a n ., c,. -i., r (. 3 7-eg>_ Qt 74 ' - mte-7.6 3 'c ' 8 v4 ,.,, What_do1you. review when:you review a changeito a I 0., " ^: s = 4.,- ~ -_ f '- - ~ 2 q .' procedure?'- ~ s .yy); .^ 3 A.~ - Thattit does not < represent 'a violation;of tech - v' .~. e ~~ ~ s L 9,,,/. d' that it'doesn'tfchange the' intent'of hhe procedure, w
- specs, g-5 Ithat.it-doesn't-change
- basically, it doesn't change'$h~e#- ,/ Lintent'of.the procedure,cbecause if it does then they have'to-6 = 7 conduct:a stationJreview.- You can' t jus t have a change 'iri a- ~ y., ?- ~8 ' procedure. C 4 9 -.Gi Do youiever revie.w the changes from.the' perspective
- e 10
- of what the operator ils goinc}: to see? dI A.' .Ies.. If I'look7at aT'dhange.t'o a.proce_ dure,,IDwant ~ / m. . s
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' 12; to make'sure.-that..it doesn.'t ch'ange[the.intentjof the'. test ~or. ~ 4 g .m
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J N/ 13 change the intent of the procediire,.that it is not outside the s,. x ,3 ,a .s L t,f, e*' 4 scope.ofythe procedure. 3-rr. g. y 15 g' ? ~ Do you: ever..look ~a't it.!frbiiilthe. perspective Jof, s-c> 9 16 here is a placeiwhere the operator 3m.ighttbe'misledJ~or might m. u ...c. +'
- misunderstandiwhahisgoingon,pndiasfaresulttakean.
[ 17 ~ = ~ 7:improp',n a = tion?.: D ebac W ' g. $.g' O _ n - ~ C~ sw - fl8 s. >y w - c I9 - W^ , ' M9 .b - u. .A ~I have doneTthat. JI ;have'C'done'.thatJ from ~the'. ~ -a 20 standpoint of maki'ng observations in tils bontroL: room.and ~ H ~ <
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m c 2 . 21 reported'those to.the,bperating engineer.- ~ '7 .5 QM ~What hias,come'of it? . 't p. .22 j [# g, m:. g.,~:.,.; ~.: y-f f q = ~,; 23 . A. ; cI--believe<th.,, sat': they. have takenn.actio. n. :Well,'in.,, yn .e. 3 ,( w . p; - a 24 -some cases theresis-nothing youfcan.do:aboutk it.: @or instanc'e, Ace. Federal Reporters; Inc. W g s ^ 1,25 :ifone.AuxfeefsNs., tem'islinoperable at[the; Zion.stationi thel, r !c .e 1 Es
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.~ mts 7-7 75 1 licensee can ~ split the train. He has three pumps. He could 2 split the trainland"have two pumps and take advantage of 3 'another header. But there is no way that you would know that 4 that has been accomplished, unless -- the valving is outside 5 the control room, and that is something I think the operator 6 should be aware of when the trains are split. 7 B Okay. So you brought that to their. attention? 8 A. ns. 9 0 What was done? .10 A. They put a sign up now that the trains are split. 11 G What is your perception of the relative quality of ^ 1 12 procedures from one plant to another? i 13 A That'they vary a great deal,'that the new plants 14 seem to ' recreate. the wheell and don' t take advantage.of other. 15 plants that may have very good procedures that have been ~ 16 several years in' modification', that have been updated in their 17 living documents; that they - just start all the time from the 18 beginning; and that they go through a' learning.curv'e, which 19 they shouldn't have to do all the time. 20 Q. Don't they get a set of draft procedures from B&W?' 21 A-Yeah, but,they may need a lot of changes'. 4 22 0 Well, don't the draft procedures that B&W provides (') 23 incorporate the lessons that have been learned at these other - 1 24 fac'ilities? Don't they incorporate the changes that haveLbeen Ac} Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 made in the: procedures at'other1similar plants?- s e
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,j A. iThey should'. I-really can t' comment. This 'is on a~+ 1 7. ~ the fringe area off my experience,- but it~is my perception' thati' ~ ~ 2 3 there is always a hell of 'a,lotlof changes:to procedures'the -'t
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. first. year orf twoL or three;t-hat a plant' isninfoperation, and is'onl':some' time laIer down.the ' road ~that things,really-e 'S it y .6 mesh t ogether,. only~ if f the company is diligent 'in making those 7 . procedures work. 8 G What' is your } perception of the relationshipjbetween I&N and NRR? ~ 9 10 A. That they should be 2a lot closer than. they are. " ~ ~ c-c . G What do you~ feel the relationshi.p is rioN? ~1] 11 but 12 A.., It is closer than..it has'been in the,past, ' L y, thereisstillLa;tremendousbarrierbetween'the'two'gyoups? 13 ~
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ja G" What is.the basis'or.what. forms that'barri'er? j 3 ~ ;, : 15 A. Well I don ' t think NRR g'ets --i for ' a ny. years, Jg'ot a }n. m 1 no feedback at'all-as to what-the operational sit 2ations in
- c. -
6 ~ u the plant were. - If.a requirement.was' mandated'by NRR1and.put. 17 t.4 4 e
- 18 in_the' tech; specs, it.was JI&E's duty ito. ensure that the techu.
s ,1h specstwere-followed.' And[NRR didn t really getka Clotkof, #ee ~ .-20 back as'to whether theseite,ch'slpecs :.were impossible, wheth'er ~ 7', 'l 'Lthey were being violated allot.. ... y 21 'L ' 22 All I&E'seems-to dolis;to(take punitive action,, o .. ~. a_.- .andlat some' point,[whenfitireall.y gets bad',,'tilrn itHover. I. .23 .241 have:always felt that'.there(sh'ould.be aLfeedback loop between-n ^ ' Acs-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 the-plant and:NRR. -Ifcthey; issue a tech spee an'd it'isiho, ,n .s ~ .w - ~ .h, l* 6
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4 w r 78 1 CR' 6516 I ~only (in a very rudimentary form. . A,; IfEE G[ What'is that form? 2 p mgc 8-1 3 ~ Every man, at rny urging -- I' used l.to be the r 'A g .. ~ 4 m-codtainmen't. integrate'd leak rate inspector in this region'. ~ 5 y did all~the t'e't. Ilwrot'e the program for the mini-computer,- s 6 and it' came to me ' -- my opinion -- that.every one of these 7 regions had. inspectors and.they were coming upon the same 8 problems. We were' knocking our heads against~the wall. We 9 were.using:different programs.. We were making different .) [indings,pand at.my, urging'two years ago, they got h11 the-10 +- - 5 II inspectors 'together[ int this region ~, and'ws had a little-12 m AEd eve'rybody enjoyed' it'. We. summarized,what we. . meeting. - -~ - ~ 13 r had come upon' in'the~. field,, the problems we had with.the ~ ~14 regula'tions,'and we.got no, thin.g out of it for't,wo years.- 15 . c.# rIf L go on a site today, I've got the,same.prbblems s.. ~ 16 I had two years acJo *with doing that test. r t . 17' g.
- "c{e,( I'm sorry, you lost me. -Why di'dryou get~
s 18 n'othing ouEo~f it? ~ 'I9 ~ 'I dont}know. 'I A ' don't:have~.anyiidea.~ We'hadL r 120 people from NRR the$e. We had peoplejfrom I&E. We did ~ 21 not get 10 CPR Appendi'x J, has not been changed,: has no't ~ p 22 r been revised f6r two year or three, years. + s.s 23 0 Then what I don't, understand.is.you felt there 24 were. change's.that needed to-be made to' Appendix J. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 X -Appendix lJ is a terrible document.. It is subject 2 to 4 U g g v .u; =.. r-a a- ~ - - - ~
wp, W ',' i - ,~, 7.:G M 3 e 1: .;s je y s ;1 g Og'ga 'a. y .,7 2 m ',7 A ^ s.$ a.. ;c ~ L ^ ~ 79 y# ~ 9 4 ~ - - 's e 3, w.. w _ retation. ' tit' has 'b.eeni promised lto, 'the. field - s< 7 mg& a d r s'o much interp? . ~, -m~, c7 8-26 I ~ C y,-?; e f. that 1t is going tobe changed.L cit hashnot_beenpchanged in_ ~ C l l i 2 q 12 .w ~ D_, the5four'or?five years I've been here. It n s:heen. promised U - 3 _n m 1 .t / ,im. M 4 thst;1ofig R ' ' ',' :< -. 9.% ',J ,, xt. ' *2 , U... s ~ '/
- 4 3
2,:.~ 4 ,3. _e o - ~ --5 GANS ' 4 $--4 ~, .which - is th'e. American.. Nuclear Star $dard th'a. t? w. e 6 Jis used to d.o'the test, is a. terrible document. - "It 'is' t ~ l! J ~ .,: q .tedibly outdated, and ~y'et i't?is s.tipula'ted -,almostleveryone.'s 7
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s 11 ? 12 lthe_' licensee canisay that heipassed;it. .c,,. g - a ~ r, . ~ s LThen we,,,,will have! EoE., ' m d<*)% ^ 13 go to war.again as to whether h6 passed or Jfailed. ~ fc i t
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/ - ~ t 7, g . w ~ ^ 16 E ,.Many. of. the problems that you l'dentifiedJwere 'not. ,: z = + y ,g~ ^ s + i.:r. ', M *;}. p > ~ < J ;t y- ~ c.,' l t #.. 4 u. s.; .c a ,r n 517 ..resolvedy -e 't 9.H.. ;W,,p 7 M2-o 4. yc Ws 18 ' l A. 1 ThatA right.. And: I?m totally $disfo~uraged.in.Inhany 9 j4 e 7,,.. - 1 N.* ,, ^ -.N 4 6 u i119 kind of group ' session in' whichiyou identify problems,ith.ere^.f, - c.+. * . n .c;
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.y -). L... Q.,, + ; e.., p!,. - .j . g" " ;.. w' .~ # Alv 2 .u a s fA 4 .'t.- , D.., ^ 522 of th'ings' that h'ad been g' earned)by/insp'ectors finVdiffbrent? Y t ^ ' ] W, j f '.L..' J. T Q Q.f. f ,y [ 7. ' x y;. m. n ~. ~2 ( 23 regions co.ffany - value?? ~ ,}f G,. p' ..,y-y cc y & ' l
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+ i ~ 1 ~,- - ,a -'~ ~ / y d ' m,4 Y ~ a_ GL 1.lBetween theninspectors? 2 4 g., 3 L a ^ a, N' / 3. s'A? WeWadifiveinspectorsthere.I.Weih'ad fiveld'ifferent* .A. - m'_ ~ s . s + y Q' 4 programs.. We' talked rabout: the problems.with..'the fprograms,". an'd, a c. o.. s g ,a s r -5 how we coul'd get@etter information ~~and what. was (avail ~able. ; _a 6 We had a guy from'NRR there.' Weihad atguylfrom:the; Statistical' c. Branch..there whoitold us the 'statisticsOinvolved. It was,' ",J. 7 yy .u - 8 very' good,~and people took notes, and*that was it. [. I t 9 BY MR.. 3.EBDON: H - s 1 s Do; whe'n':you say you.got lidthing out' of Lity wNSt' you, .10 ~ g %2 .. 3 ~ y . sv+m ? 11, meakis that' thef.. changes' 'did: not?get.made. 1 -^ a e..
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.yC-e, .12. A. That '. s - right. k1- . ' ~, ' y 71o '. 3 -,; : ;J '., 'J.. ;.. g W But you ~ did.geell that you got>a lot' outlof,yAt{as f.c ..e5 7 (): 13 ~ -a +:' .e z -
- 14 'far as exchanginfi.nfENatiion betwee'n the; pe_oplel:involvedM '
s - yu u. m. L..,.. ,,J*i 4 Tha t'; s :vp, ght. ' And I would Jgoifurtherkto.say1that a ri ,c, - -15 A. ,= o w. a '^ e n . -:3. 1 T. .-- m, 4r ~ 16 I would ~be.the first,to ' admit that.whenb I am a' resident at - s: e me-c .a n?, a tl a w' .O .s ..L g7,, ,, (g2 17 Zion,.;I) may}not;be doing (the, right thing. - ThereEmay?beJsome > (; > ; r' e s O +. rc-- 4 W n. ~ :-.. m .(- 1 ':18 ot,.her; guy swho fisid,oing,' a'.'be'tter jobi than I?m.~.do'ing. i Ma.ybex the ~ v. ,u + v, n . 8 .->,e ~ .c .. ~ ~ e. O.' - J. guy at. Salem.: Maybe he?.has_ bcen in' the Navy-foK..fourfyears' t 19 ~- + . c ~ '- +: am y-a
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~" ' ~ 7 7 81 4 .mgc 8-4 I together ' the inspectors for certain' vendor.' designs -- for 2 ~ ~ example,. bring Ltogether al1 the inspectors who inspect -B&W-3 plantsand have a periodic' meeting to discuss i'ssues tha't i !~ >a 4 areIbotherin'g people,' things that'.have come up, thati sbrtidf 5 thing. ' 6 3,-. Absol0tely.,One of the'first things in my mind 7 when I see,a problem is, is'this a new problem. It is from 8 my Toledo Edison experience. Am I beating my head against the 9 bush here?. or has;this. been identified at some other plant,.. and t ; 10 i -they resolved it. w. II Q.. ' Do you' have :any id'ea-why thos~e kinds of meetings - 12 aren't. conducted? r N 8, t () 13 A. ~ Because everything is< dealt in a decentralize,d- ~l 4 basis. Information 'dSes not' flow; That is why. 's s y~,. 15 G Is there a'dif ference ' in your inspection procedures knd inspection philosophies for safety.-related.versus'non-16 P' 17 safety-related systems?' - c m 18 A.. - Yes. I 'almostLdon ' t have - the time -'to look~ at' ai ~ 19 non-sa fety-rela ted s' s tem. nunless ' it' is' r'eally going ' to hit; y ~ 20 me.in:the head. . f.' ~ 21 0 What is the basis,' for deciding if the systsm'is - M ~ N '. ? .w /) 22 safety-related or non-safe'ty-related?' e-c ' () 23 A. -Good [ question. I don'c know.. I feallyf. don.'t? ~ t ' Reactor _ coolant pumps are safej.y-relhted,{but'the _ 24 know. . Ace fedml Reponm, Inc. ~ 25 seal rings aren't.* Who knows?; 1 C / '? s_' S d ~. s ~~ f e '.S 1
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7 ,m ::. . &,, / 7 y u' <4 every st,ation;has;a sa:'fety-related parts: list'an.d'a non.. ~ _. ~, v y "5 safety-rela'ted '. parts list. rThey color' co'de. the's safety -related - ~ +~ ~ 6 systems, but that'doesn't mean that everything in that system o g 7 ,m is tsafety-related, which' I<found out at great length in' trying ~ 8 . to ' cite?somebody for using: non' safety parts in a. safety'-' 9 related system.. Itf aets1back to the part -listi:and the part 10' U.i. list --- I don' t know ;what goes.irito Ja part list. ' J..S - {. ".. .n 4, 11 If; Byr'on Jacks 6n:has pump seals. for a" nuclear pla. nt M a s ,.g. .or and pump seals for 'a non-nuclear ~ plant and they care iddn..tical,. 12 ~ 1 _ f_ ,l +:; 1 '- : .*n a,, O. M-13 btit ode costs $8000 and one costsj$100, that~ definitelydoes yo into the'considerationJof.whether the licensee co,a - 7 *< ap. .4 j 14, nsiders tl' tat i , fj
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16 - 0 . ~, So then if I. understand'youlcorrectly,-you hreYiew; ,y i. r ,x
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b>u - }7 of no'n-safety. related systems is, essentially 1 nil h y.w"f s. i .,r y ,r-e 18 y .I would say:so. That 's$ight.. [w'otddi. bay 'slo.; J 2 m 1. , ~ ..g A4 1 m> '19 0, ,g s (Have lyoui ever tried f to d,eco,mmendithat[a. non-s,a fdty-l, D l i . s, w-L 20 ,mxpr relat_ed; system '. bel upgraded l to.a safety-related one? 2 ;6.. s M~ w: e +.. u; ne f c.,. 3, 3" z.,, ..s, m cs s I.
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any percep, tion 'of?what yotirTprohabilityf..'ly g y J :, ~ y, s ^ A '- '23 of suc~ cess-wouldibe fihyo'ul id that? d n {- 4 n L. -n i.. AdFederal Reportersi f re. ... A.,., c. o'Zero.h,I.wouldn ' t even a. tryf t ~. ;I. ;. have'mo.ther., e,, ": J , 24 _4 7
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l x 83 I mgc 8-6 than to try to do that. I don't have the time to do it? 2
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What is-your basis of your perception that your 3 probability of success would be that low? t 4 A. There is no place to send that ~ information. I 5 don't even know who to send it to. Whom am I going to-send 6 it to, my boss? What is he going to do with it? Send it 7 through to Washington? 8 Maybe.in today's atmosphere, it might get a closer 9 review, but not two years ago. 10 0 Do you know of any other events that, in your I opinion, are precursors-of the accident tha.t occurred at TMI? I2 A. No.. <-y 13 0 Do you have any ad.ditional information that might Id' be relevant to our inquiry into t:he events surrounding the 15 accident at TMI? 16 A. No. 17 ' R. HEEDON: c Do y u hav'e any additional questions? M 18-BY MR. FOLSOM:e 19 0 You -- what you said about non-sa fety-related- ~ 20 systems leads me to" conclude that you thinic that some items, 21 some parts, in the safety-related systems are so designated 22 by,.the licensee as non-safety-related because it is.just 23 cheaper. 24 A. 'Let me_give you'the~ case. This will crystalize ~ Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. ~ i 25 it for you. If my inspection plan requires me to look at 'P 8 dip o =
t y 84 9 I 'mgc 8-7 maintenance 'i'n safety-related areas, and it does, and.it says r 2 pick one of the following areas'. At a BWR, I pick the reactor 3 recirculdtion pump. They did maintenance on it. They are v f.4 changing the seals all the time. I thought I had a safety-5 related maintenance job. 6 Okay. If 'it is a suety-related maintenance job, I 7 expect to see safetiy-related parts, safety-related part tags, t 8 all'of the documentation relating to any parts that are used. 9 So I had^-- and'thi's cons back awhile, but this is a good-10 example -- I had three seale'd jobs on three pumps, r.ebuild 1 II' these seals,Jrebuild three neparate seals.- Two of-them had - t 12 red part. tags',that said the:y were safety-relatec:: one of them ~ ~ _ ; - ) 13 didn't. So I asked; the maintenance guy, "What's xhe problem 14 here." And he said, "Oh, boy, did we screw up;"we should 15 have done this.and;this. But the final resolution was, the 16 third' job that.didnt.:.they~had changed the seals to 17 non'-safety rd1'ated.,'l They ~ made a plant ichange', or a change ..a..:. in3 procedure,qs,0 they didn ' ti need " safety-related seals : anymore. 18 4 .+ 19 ...BY MR. HEBDON: h What was;the basis for the decision that they 20 t t. 21-didn't'need' safety'-related seals? ,s p 22 Y 2,They.de'leted it,off. their safety-related parts ~ \\,, and:I really can't recall? '.I. really ciann~ot recall.. .. ~. ,, + 23
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F ~ 85 m g c' 8,8 ',I, Probably VeryLlittle. A. A, 0 Would it'have required:any approval by NRC?. 3 A. No..~ Absolutely not. '4 BY MR FOLSOM: 5 0, Were economic factors involved? 6 A. It could be. [I'm not saying it is limited to it, 7 but itUcertainly could b'e. There is1a desire not,to classify ' i'. 8 it as not' safety-r' elated if you don't have to2 9 0 Because it costs less? 10 A. Because it~ costs less. It's easier to.g'et, and ~ a. ]I it takes less time. ~It takes less time. -I' don't think the ~ I2 cost is,as important'a's the time. If there'were.two seals .t (). 13 and you could buy it from Mahufacturer A and Manufacturer B, 14.and'one cost' ten ' times as much as.the other, and,maybe one' , A. [. -15 cost-.$8000 'nd one cost $800'but you could get tliem tomorrow, a _16 I don't think they would be so concerned abou6 it. t But;the: 17 safe,ty-relatedonemky:takesixmonths,-and:thyother~one: f. .L18 migilt.ta'ke'a week.' s 19 y BY MR'. HEBDON': 20 0, . NowIthese. three seal's that -you are[ t'alking about, .v - 21 are these the same'~three: seals but in:different pumps, tor' A are they. functionally ?differentiseals?- 22 4 %d ,J' . ~. 23 ' A. '..Thefseals are the same Theyikeep one spare. They ~- 24 always'repulldthecspare, so when tih~e ou'tage. cbmesithey can. Aa-Federal Reporters, Inc. put a good'one-in'and~take the' bad one out' -25 so the seals.are v, 3 ..y g . 'j ~.
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86 mgc,809 I identical. Parts should be the same, but they were not in 2 this case. And this is one case that I recall. It happened 3 quite awhile ago, but it is representative. c 3 (J 4 'O Well, in your opinion, did the seal that wac 5 classified as non-safety-related have any safety functions? 6 A. Well we got into that discussions about what is 7 your basis for deleting this off the parts list, and their 8 basis was that if i.t fails, we are still' within, I guess, 9 we are still within our criteria, and it is na analyzed event, 10 and we can handle it. II MR. FOLSO51: i have no further questions. 12 MR. IIEBDON: I have no other questions. Do you 13 have anything else to add? y .,TNat ompletes the interview. Thank 14 MR. IIEBDON: 15 you very much, 16 (Whereuponl, at 11,:25 a.m., the interview was 17 concl'uded. ): 18 4 19 20 21 ~ ,q. 77 j s/ 23 74 Ac}Fcderal Heporters, Inc. 25 g c / k(; -l! t,+ i .w c_}}