ML19305A711

Deposition of Wj Raymond (NRC) on 791012 in King of Prussia, Pa.Pp 1-36

ML19305A711
Person / Time
Site:	Crane
Issue date:	10/12/1979
From:	Raymond W, Rivenbark G NRC - NRC THREE MILE ISLAND TASK FORCE, NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION I)
To:
References
TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 8001280525
Download: ML19305A711 (37)

Text

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.O N U CL E A R R E G U L ATO R'l CO MMIS SIO N i

IN THE MATTER OF:

THREE MILE ISLAND SPECIAL INQUIRY DEPOSITIONS DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM J.

RAYMOND O

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Place -

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania Date -

Friday, October 12, 1979 Pages 1 - 36 i

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(202)347 3700 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.

Offic:alReponon 1

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NATIONWlDE COVERAGE - DAILY

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THE NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION'S :

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4f Oral deposition of WILLIAM J. RAYMOND l

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APPEARANCES :

i 6

Mr. George Rivenbark

)

7i Nuclear Regul'atoryl Commission's i

, _Special Inquiry Group on 8I

~Three Mile Island 9,

Mr. Peter Sicilia,'Jr.

+

Nuclear Re'gulatory Commission's 10 Special Inquiry Group on Three Mile Island 11 i

12 TAKEN AT:

13 Region I

'O.

Friday Nuclear Regulatory Commission October 12, 1979

~

yl Headquarters Office 1:20 p.m.

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Room 208B 15 631 Park Avenue King of Prussia, Pa.

16,

7

_I _N _D _E _X jg WITNESS EXAMINED BY-PAGE 19 William J. Raymond Mr. Rivenbark 2

Mr. Sicilia 28 20 Mr. Rivenbark 32 t

21 EXHIBITS 22 Number Marked 23 ' Exhibit A (5167) letter dated 10/4/79 2

24 i Exhibit B(5168)

Mr. Raymond's resume 2

Exhibit C(5169),

Mr. Raymond 's notes 33 25 item en u rs ~oc aa~,c s i a.',e s. s u s ow um i.on o wmmsta e4 voeu

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-2 (Whereupon, the'Repoiter marked?a letter'da,ted

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3 October 4, 1979, to Mr. ~.Raymond tas, Exhibit A (5167) ; - and i,

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4 Mr. ' Raymond 's : resu'm'e 'as Exh bit.B(5168);)'

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MR. RIVENBARK:

This..is4a-deposition being 6

conducted by the U.S.-Regulatory Commission's Special 7

Inquiry Group on Three Mile ~ Island of Mr. William =J.

.8.

Raymond of Region I of the Nuclear; Regulatory, Commission.

9.j The deposition is taking,. place in the. Region. I 10.' of fice a t King of " Prussia, Pennsylvania,* on October 12, 1979

'115 Present:in addition to Mr. Raymond are Mr. Peter 12 Sicilia, Jr., and'Mr. George Rivenbark of.the-Special 13 Inquiry Group.

.14-Mr. Raymond..I have been delegated the Commissions 15 authority.to adminis'ter the oath.

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. ILLIAM J. RAYMOND 16 17 was called as a witnessvand,thaving been first duly sworn by 18 Mr. George Rivenbark, was examined.and testified as follows:

I 19 BY MR. RIVENBARK:-

20' Q.

Mr. Ra'ymond, you have received 'a 2-page letter 21j dated October 4, 1979,-from Mr. Rogovin whichidescribes the

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22 na ture of. our interviev and-the possibi1ity. of its becoming L23 Public, is that right? '

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A That,is correct.'

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-Q-I,have.-here an; item marked Raymond Exhibit'A'which s

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is=a copy ofcan October 4,-1974.letterJfrom Mr. Rogovin; ad'dre$ sed.to'Mr. Willi,am

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this, a nd. tell me if. this ' is a _ copy of the. letter that. you 3

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'A I believetit'is'..

Q Have you read :it and'do you understand it?

6 A

Yes, ILhave.

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Q I believe-that you'have brought with you this g,

E-morning a resume.

The Court RepoEter has marked this.

9 paper Raymond Exhibit :B.. The paper.is. headed with your

.10

name, William J. Raymond.

Would you look at this and tell g,

me. if this'. paper accura tely ? summarizes your educational y

and employment background?

13 A' -

Yes, it ' does.

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Q Mr.'Raymond,.you should be aware that the-testimony you-give has the same force and effect as if you were testifying:in a court.of. law.

My questions and your responses.are!being taken down.

They will be later transcribed.

19 I

You'will be given'the opportunity to look at

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L'20, that transcript 1and make changes as you deem necesssary.

21 4 =

301 "However,mto the extent that your subsequent changes are significant, those changes.'may be viewed as affecting your credibilityq !So, please be as complete and accurate t

3 25(. a's you ' can' 1n responding t to my ques tions.

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.If youfa t any point',during th.e deposition dhn.'t

'2) understand the quest on, please, feel free to stop and

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'3 lindicateithat.

We-will make the clarification'at that 4

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Let me ask you to follow two basic ground rules

.6 in replying to my questions.

One is:that you permit me 7

to: finish ad quea'tions before you 'give your response even.

'8 if you k,now what the question is going to be because the 9:

' Reporter can't take both;o'fius down speaking at the same e

10 time.

11 I~

'Theisecond is-that you respond audibly as motions 12

'such asLnodding your head cannot be taken down by.the 13 Reporter.

14 I understand fromtreading previous interviews that 15 you h' ave participa,ted n th'at-your initial involvement in 16 the response to the TMI event was in Region I Response 17 Center manning the telephone communications between' the i

18' Region'and Headquarters; is that correct?

'19 A

That is correct.

20 Q

Would.you please describe that activity that you 21 were involved'in early' Wednesday?

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22

~A.

Oka'y, during~the morning of Wednesday the Response

-23 Center wasiset up and being manned by several individuals.

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24 The individuals participating 1n the responee were in O

25,

phone :communica tion lwith - various loca tions with the site, q

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_.1with r the ~Hea'dqua rters : Response? Group.t- -And, welli those'are

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,t~dteril had-been. called-;in.to!.the room I was asked w

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the'HeadquartersvGroup.' An'd:my role'duringL-- at-that time i6 was.to relay questions and answers _back'and'forth.between

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- the. Headquarters Groups and' the-people in'.communica tion 18' with the site.

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.Q.

'How would you-characterize the addquacy of-this

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c Il0 communic'a' tion system at tha.t. time?'.Was it a good system

4. 4 11-that was functioning well? 'Was it uot providing the L

'12 responses that'were.needed?

Just?how would you characterize

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that?

14 A

If you are_ inquiring about the adequacies of the C.15 phonetlinks between ourselves and' Headquarters as well as t

14; between the site and theJRegion I. office,-they were_I.would

-17

' consider to be' sufficient as well-as the. intercommunications r

- 18 between people.-inTthe room. LAlthough, there was a tendency 19.

towards=alot of' noise.in theiroom-and that sort of thing',

20 that didn't_become-a. problem.

21 Now,*there were, of course, times.during the morning when communicationis,between the Region and.the(site 22

}23:

' were lost.

_I'can 't remember; much of' the details.

a2d l In other yords,; had !there been,,let 's' sa y, a

525[' de'dicated,11nel:you.woUldn 'tihave run into tha t problem.

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I, Were there also times when there.was a buildup, 11 :

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-2 a backlog of questions' with people waiting t'oiget answers 3

because of the large number,of questions that were outstanding?'

4 A

~ To some extent,jy,es.

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S-Q Was'*, hat to a serious' extent:or was'that a-minor

'6' matter?

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A' It is'hard-to make.a judgment.at that --

8 Q

From your perspective, from your memory?

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.A Certainly if you" can get answers to ~ every question i

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.that-you:ask~as soon'as you ask it, you can, proceed more i

11 smoothly.='Now, I would say.the biggest problem 'probably 0

12 '

came.from the inability:to get information from the site.

13 And if.there was a backlog ~that.was created it was probably 14 because of that.,

15

.Q I take it that by your answer you are indicating

. that you d'on't specifically. recall that there was any

- 37 significant backlog at that time?

18 A-No.

The situation we get into is where questions

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20 repetitive'-type question where we-kad sufficient information

- 21 within'that room,.within the Region I Response Center L.

in which to prc, vide =the answer.

.I did not consider that'

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there;wa'!a. problem.

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..Qc ',In. addition to relaying. questions f rom Headquarters t

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.information.in. a generall.' sense.or)1icenise'e pla'ns tha t were l'

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aware off that youlfelti Headquarters needed as ' opposed to 7y - '

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only; response :to: specific' requests from Headquarters?

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.occ'asions where we were'providityg system information, r

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We were also;providing, plans, information about thefplans.

Il1E ithat the licensee (either had in progress or was contemplating.

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And at. times ee probably did volunteer information that was

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not specifically requested.

Now, you have to realize that:

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14 I am making:a very. general-statement there because I am

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tAP 15 hard-pressed to resember specifically the contents of the; 16-

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I appreciate-your qualifying J18 your. answers as best you. understand things an'd putting them 19 into proper perspec'tive today as I realize it is difficult

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.to recall or,toiknow what you. knew at t h'a t time.

We are talking' about; today.alo$, ofl things we are' going to be ta1 king

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about is;what.did you know!at:that: time,.not what you know, 23

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~ operations' inspectors who~had'gone to the site earlier, is..

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Q-I believe you left' Headquarter, stat about 1:00 p.m.

'S onWe'dnesdayandarrivedat[theLaite;at;aboutj4:00p.m., is

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6-that. correct?

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A Roughlyfspeaking"except'it was departingcRegion I.

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~Q Departing Region I?-

9' A

At 1:00 p.m.

10-Q Wha t'.was the basis for your being sent to the 11 4 site?

More'specifically,lhad you had previous experience' 12 at TMI?

13 A

In a' manner of' speaking,[yes..

I had-been there,

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as my resume indicates,'I was employed by the Babcock and 14

• 15

-Wilcox Company-and-spent part of my -- I was assigned to the 16 -

Three Mile Island' site during the -startup of that Unit.

17 Did I say Unit' -- I'should have said Unit One..

18-

.It was Three Mile ~ Island One.

.19 Q

,z As an employee of Babcock and W1lcox?

20 A

Babcock and Wilcox.

c21

. To answer your question,. a t my departure from the

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22 region:whidh my. instructions that I had.was to go out.to the 23:

imite-and

• provide relief!for Jim Higgins and Walt Baunack

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We(were, disc.ussing whether you-had previous

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experience;at TMI..

ou ind cated;that, yes, atsTMI.One 12

?0 as'a B&W employee. ; Had ;you thaMany expdrienckat TMI as 3

4 an:NRC employee?

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, TI.believe~I had beencout there at le,ast once, maybe a.

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6 stwice'...The_one. time that'I can recall-most recently was 4

7; priorf to'. li~ censing of Unit -Two.c ~ And I went out there -

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accompan' ing another : inspector, the projec t inspector. a t - the y

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. time..-And,the' reason for the inspection was to; conduct 10-la review ^of. pre-op test'results.

So, for about a 2, 3, 4-4 1

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day period. prior-to -- 11had'.been out there on the pre-op 12 g -. test program.- ( Now, Ilam sure that if I thought long enough 13; I could remember'another. time before that I was'out as a ja RegioniI employee. - Bu t-it esca pes.me. - If~it is important...-

Q No, I just wanted to get the-general feel for your 15 knowledge, o,f the p'lant,* your past ~ experience at the plant 16

.so; that.'. I could put into perspective _what one might

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, 18 consider ' to ibe your f amiliarity with the' equipment there 39 when you arrived.

4 lNow I understand that you went.to:the Observation 20

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21 LCenterwhenjyouarrive'd'atthes'itet

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Th'a't 's -; correc t.

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. Q Where;yop discussed the plant status with Mr..

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, Jack H.erbein at Metropolitan Edieon, is th'a t correct? :

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Was.Mr.: Herbein aware 'tha t the reactor coolant 2

was possibly super-heated and,that the core.wasipossibly

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3 uncovered at the tinie.that' you were tal' king to him?

Did he

. indicate'anything in tiiel conversation 'to'ydu thht would: lead-4 L.

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you to believe that he;had suspected,or had discussed-that?

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A At the time that I spoke'with Jack he was aware

-7 of the existence'of the steam voids in the loops.

It was 8

his knowledge atLthat time that the reactor vessel was 9

covered, was. full of wa ter, and' tha t the core was covered.

r 10 Q

It was his understanding that it was?

11 A

Yes.

12 Q-Did he know for a fact that it was?

13 A

I didn't test him.

14 Q

I just wanted to clarify that it was his

.15_

understanding as opposed to keev. You had indicated kaey.

16 I just= wanted td put in a qualifying word there to make 17 sure. tha't >you hadn't used the word knew for some ' specific 18 l positive indicator.-

19 Do you-recall whether or'not-there was any 20, discussion with Mr. Herbein about high' hot' leg temperatures 21 1.

at that-time?

A With myself'there was.

We had indica ted -- we h'ad 22 ]

- 23' !

looked a t the overall RCS sta tus in which he relayed 24 to me the key parameter",

And after reviewing them we E

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discussed the-situation that he was in~ including the high 3

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' temperatures'in the loops:and~whether~or-not there was N

flow to'the; vessel and whatithe overall plan was to'go from where:theytwere...i ~

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he knew there'were volds was therecany discVssiihn that

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~ these, voids ~were made up of' super-hented steam ~as opposed

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.7-to saturated steam?

48 A.

JI{d,on't think we,ksew. specifically - 'said 'it was 9

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super-heated or saturated

! Just looking at thv ' te perature

g 10 and! knowing what'the temperature was we pretty much assumed 11 tha't[itwassuper-heated in there.

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.Q -

.I.want:t~oidwell.on that one.

Was it your s.

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~ 13 recollection-that at the-time-that'you were talkingito'him 14 -

thatlyou realized it was. super-heated steam and he realized-

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15 super-heated; steam was there something~1n the conversation 16 at that tiine' that ~specifically.would make you saylthat it 17 was --

.18 A-Not specifically.

19 Q

Did Mr. Herbein ind'icate that he'was' aware of any

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20 NRC Headquarters / communications with the plant during the.

.s 21 day with regard.to'the possibility or the.eubject.of super-22 hen t; '. the' possibly of.the. subject of core uncovery?s

'23 A"..Nothing was said between Jack and myself which

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would indicate that he had'thatlinput.from Headquarters.

i 25 '.But.that1is"not to say that he didnt have it.

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Wa's-there any. discussion'about consideration 2'

-about reducing-the pressure in the,cor -or blowing down the

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-- in'other words, blow'ing down:the.'c' ore.- Ia' discussion

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relating to either a previous. plan or an NRC recommendation 15.-

or suggestion that that be considered?

1 61 A

No.

The poin't that - 'The' condition that.they 7

were in on my arrival 'in conversations with ~ Jack.were just 8~

the opposite.

It was.theirLintent'to try to bring pressure 9

back up. 'Welhad really not'gotten_into the subject of e

10 depressurization other than how did you get there type' thing ll-and an attempt-to go on DHR.

12 sQ

-Were th'ere any. discussions on: thermocouple readings,

13 erroneous thermocouple readings or checking the w

14-thermocouples?

151 A~

No, not a't-that time.-

16 '

-Q

' Now as best you can recall'.what I have just said 17 when you went on thefshift at the site ~1 ster-in'the evengng

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werelany of.these' items that Ifhave been asking you about, 18 19 were these-discussed.with.the~ licensee, the people in.the

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20 Control Room.from the licensee?

Did you' hear any-discussion 21 in the. Control Room-after youJgot there in the evening from s

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T J22 the'lic.ensee people with respect to super-hented steam, with

'23 respect to core uncovery, with -respect to erroneous f 24i

- t hermocou ples?.

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. Super-heated steam, no.-

Core uncovery, yes.

T e os,u smorsarmc ssavice m s oto mit woro 4*ownsm en tesio

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-1 Thermocouples,'yes.

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'2 t Qc With ' respect;;to core uncovery do you recall whether q :.

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-it had to do with;whether-the core had been uncovered ox E

4 earlier'in-the accident or whether it was indeed uncovered ry

- ~5 at the time?that they'beganfto repressurize?

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I better back o f.t'I'm not'sure-that'there was 7.

> anybody that I talked to in-the Control Room who indicated 8

they'were knowledgeable of an extensive -- of the core 9

being extensively uncovered at the time.

Throughout most

~fl0' ofLthat, day there was considerable concern about not 11' providing sufficient flow to. maintain core cooling.

I guess 12' I's. not'sure 'if I' did speake.with anyone directly that said

,L13 for.sure-between such and such a time.we feel we hsd the 14 core. -- we did n,ot r have sufficient water to cover the core.

15 Now, my. initial response to you:I think was

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because.of confusion with.information that I learned-6 p

subsequent to allithat, subsequent to that being there 18 Wednesday and Thursday.

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!19

-Q

-. That is understandable.

20 What about the thermocouples then?'

A Okay, the.thermocouples was probably the first 21 ]

22 thing,.that I really got involved with when I arrived in the

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23 Control Room'that evening.

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Q What time was that'about?

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I~would say I.got in around 11:00 or so.

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between talking with either. shift people in the Control 4

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.2 Room or the Headquarters people who --1which, by that time 3 -

we had a dedicated:11ne;to'RegionjI,as well-asLHeadquarters

'd the request was made for whether or not we could -get.

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-thermocoup15 information.

I,said,;yes, %;>I3

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.e indicated

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6 that, yes, I could go over 'tolthe plantJcomputer and pull)

.7 that information out which IJproceeded to do~.

And we 8

started looking at some of the data.

.In' regard to what.

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we were seeing we, of course, Let me -- Okay.

As you 10 are aware the plant computer readout on that thermocouple

- 11 information doesn't go above'-- over ranges'.of 700 degrees.

12 Q

Are we' talking now in* core thermocouples now?

13 A

Yes.

14

-Q Not hot legs but in-cored?

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15 A-In-cores.

By obtaining printouts of all 52 16 thermocouple readings and looking at them at that time,

- 17 just1in~ general there were thermocouple readings about

~

18 where you would expect them to read.

There w$re several 19 thermocouple readings loffscale high.

And not only were 20 they offscalefhigh, but just< based on the limitations' of

- 21 l the computer printout itiwas -- couldn't readily tell-

. 22

.how hightthey were other-than the fact they were about 700 23 degrees.. In the. discussions with not'only Met-Ed personnel 24 '

.but B H representasives.who were there:as well'as GpU there O

25l

'was a discussion asi to ' wha t they l considered - they were 1

g. MD htCM Sf E NCaGf4 4 PH3C SE 9 VpC E.

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'11 seeing -- what information that 1they considered' tha t they E2'

'were.'getting from the thermocouples.

There.was a tendency

}3.

atDthat point even that: they tthought;;that the:'information 9

4'

wa s 'u nrelia ble, that becauseiof th'e ransient'that had been 4

L 'i f s..

i

, 5-

- :thatihad occurred.within'the'cbrerand reportedly based on 1

. ',2, t pr...

3.-

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'measurem$nts that"a:GPU engineer:hads.taken-earlier either 4

7 Ithat~ morning or'that afternoon on the;thermocouples.= They 7

'l h'ad:the-tendenc'y,to discredit the thermocouples'iinformation.

u

}

_8 9

Q.

'Were the measurements taken by the GPU employee

}

10~

earlier, are you referring to the measurements with-the g-a 11 potentiometer,;that, sort.of measurement?

7

-12 A

A bridge-type measurement.

Q A bridge-type measurement to check them --

13 14

-A From<the" remote panel.

Not from in the Control 15 Room,.but going down and just checking leads ~, that sort of

'16:

' thing.

17 And:after discussions -- my discussions with 18 Headquarters Lpersonnel, with the thermocouple readings

]

that we were -- that we received' we' concluded.that by j9 20 God they better believe this information till they can

'a 21:

prove it wrong.

And we. passed that information on.to them.

122 And as.I remember: they were -- Yes, Iremember) i that there_was some talk anE further considerations being

-23l

. 24

'given to depressurizing further and, I'am guessing,' would O

25 have..be,en to go on ' decay. heat removal subsequent to that.

a s

um.o msocu%c Lanuct

'm oto wu noao wvo ejuisa_ n. is io.

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16.

. And at'which point we interjected _and say, " Hey, if you

()T'

'2'

'depressurize at this point you may worsen an already bad.

3' situation with regard to the coolant."'

h i: b., l

[

.s 4

-Q

-Do you ha.ve~ any feel 'today as ~ to' approximately.

wha t part of the shif t).iNhethek 'it 'was *In' the ' first' quarter-5-

.6 or in the-middle of a shif t or31n the'lastypart of a shift ~

4

'7 that you were on that-day when the discussion on the 8

thermocouples came up?

9 A

I'd say somewhere between 1:00 and 4:00 in the 10 morning, something like that.

11

-Q' Early in the morning?

3

'12:

A Yes..

r 13' Q

How long were you on that day?

What time did you 14 leave?

Do you recall?

l 15

-A I think I'left around 9:00 or 10:00 that morning.

16 And I was asked to join up with' Rick Ke'imig who had come

_17 to-the site' And we went-to the ' airport to meet I think it

.jp was. Hart.and Udall. and presented a briefing to them that s

19 af ternoon at.1:00, 20 Q

When you were on the' site that Thursday morning 21 did anybody come up to. you f rom Met-Ed and say, "Say, L

- 22 yesterday, on Wednesday,'we saw a. spike in the containment-23 pressure"?

A No, sir.

It[wasn'tuntilthedayafterthatI 2,4

(:),

believe that I becamefparty-to some. conversations in regard 25 1

=o%c= susocu=~rc nav.cc. ma oto mot acao. wvomssina.== tosio

6..

}7,

17 t'

p,'

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Ll'

.to'a spikelas well'as the_ activation of the building spray.

x 2

as wellias. speculation as to what-all-that was about.

r 1

-Q I'am aware of.the general knowledge;that there had f

3

.been a! spike:thetTeam.toNRC'slawarenesson'5'rkday..

~

I am

[

SI

justsearchingLtosee}if[therewass'me'onewhohadbeen o

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~ told by Met-Ed at'sometime earlier about that or if someone

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,7

,5

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had told ~someone s' imply because a Met-Ed. operator had 8'

indicated that he:had told someone'whom he didn.'t know 9

eexcept that;he thought'lthey..were an NRC employee at sometime 10 on:the first day really.

And that he thought that they had 1

11 E made' a note' to themselves on -it.

t_ '

12 A-It' may very well have been the case.

113

. Q I have no idea.

14 l A

You. have to a pprecia te the f act. tha t --

15 Q

Do you know'Mr. Mehler?'

16 A

Brian Mehler, yes.,

d Q

Was h'e on when you were.on shift?

18' A

I.can't say.

-I did -- Yes, I did see him on some 19 of. titose shif ts.

But I don't know if he was off-going or 20 on-comi.ng' or vice versa.

21 !

Q' But you would: recognize.him if you saw him and i

I 22l he was the individua11that I believe'had said that he knew 23 of. the spike and he. bad l mentioned ithat someone -- I assumed

~

2 24 l that hearing his name further sharpened in your mind that O

i not.onl~y did-no one tell you but that-Norman Mehler didn't 25]t

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1 tell;you?

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Nb.'.Akamatterof' fact,;theindiv'idualsfrom 7

3

'whom I,heardjit).Ilknow[specifically it was_, Gary-Miller.

'4:

[ A'nd Understand,.'it [was.n ' t. a s' th'ough, he wa's repor ting it '

'5$

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to-me.

f 4

'b 6'

.Q I presume' it'.was in castial conversiation?

s f

s 6

't

~

7 A' '

Essentially, yet

,I believe,I gave a statement to

~

>8 the inquiry investigation group'on that.

I could repeat.

9 tha t if it' is nece'ssary.I:

-10

'Q It isn't.

If you gave it.to them we have it in 11 the record.

I probably read it.

I don't have.it right' l

12 up on the top of my. mind.

l 13 You joined up with Keinig, briefed the Congressmen, 14 then when did you' return to the-plant the next time to work?

l 15 A-

'It would' have been sThursday evening again.somewhere A-between 10:00 and.12:00 at night'.

16 17 Q

.For how long?

' 18 -

A Did"I stay at the plant?.

. 19 Q

Yes, how-long did;you stay that time?.

What time 20 do you.think you might have~'left?

~

21.

A Beginning Wednesday night or Thursday morning I

~

22 was standing.the mid-shift which goes from 12:00 midnight

~

23 j till 8:00 o' clock inzthe morning.

And -I continued on tha t i

24 I

' shift until about Wednesday morning the following week, j

' 25 ;

whatever date that-is, i

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?-

o lQ

<+Did'tha'tiput you at the plant on the Friday

?&.

...;Q

' morning when'we had the releases from;the-waste gas tank?

3 fA It certain1'y did.,

1 7,,

i,,q

+

4 I

Q' -

JCan you.tel1~me whatiyou_.know'about'the releases i

e,

.5; l on Friday and when_ yod.first,1' earned about'the releases from

~

.6 the'wakte' system,..how you. learned aboutLthem a,nd just what

~4' i,

. 7'

.your~ involvement might;have been in that activity?

'8

.A1 I'd be hardpressed to name a time that i first i

{

9

'became aware o'f theorelease.

But it was towards.the latter E

~end of'th'e shift. 9So, I'd put it anywhere between 5:00 in

~

the m'orning'and 8_:00.in the morning, that sort of thing.

ll i

12 1:became' aware'of it via overhearing discussions from the 13 ~

operators saying tha t' they. had an' increase in Rad levels Id

'as indicated by the radiation monitors in the Control Room 15 and as the result'Jof cverpressure in the vent headers from 16b the waste gas' system' I spent that morning following up.

17 on -- well,Lafter pa'ssing on the.informatl-n that I have' 18 I spent time' reconstructing with them how they'got to where 19

..they; were and what 'was causing' it.

20.

Q

.This;was reconstructing with the Met-Ed.. people?

~21~

LA Yes.

22

.Q.

And after passing-on the information to'the

-23:

oncoming NRC staff 7

,2 O

• lA cYe's, as.well as whoever would have been manning the

~ 25 l i

.NRC. trailers' set up near the Observation Center.

j

, M Or. it' *L e f f NOf.M A P***b s f M vic t 1413 clo MitL poAD, w yowigh; sg_ pa. gggio i

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4 4

l' I.

LQ,

'This'is something:that you,did.on your way out?.

3 y2. '

$A:

.Well', we h'ad a phone link to them.

u 3

[Q.

-Do you know Mr. Floyd?

' 4 A

Jim Floyd,(yes, I do.,

+.

5

-Q Diii you see'him in the.C'ontrol., Room that morning?

~'

I have _ to atiswer no.s And my ' mind"is completely-I 6

. A_

7:} < blank in answer to-his' pre'sence;there..# I remember the k

8

. events as they happened. : And I remember hearing Mr. Floyd's 9-testimony.in front of the-Committees after that.

And I 10 '

t houg ht ',' "MyGodh.Idon'trememberseeing'himthere.-".

But:

1 11-that 's not to. say -that he wasn't '.

12l Q

Do you ' remember hearing 'the report from the 13-helicopter coming from the speaker phone in the Un'it Two;

^ 14-Control Room that morning?' j; 15 '

A Yes.

16 Q

Do you remember a helicopter reporting the 1200 17 MR, reading over the stack?-

18 A

That's correct.

e 19 Q

Did you-hear ~from any of the Met-Ed employees 1

20. ;

that morning before'you.left any discussions about-the fact

~

i.

l y,

. 2T !

_that someone was1notif.ying the State of the releases?

7f _..

22' A

I believe;that' was mentioned that they were I

.. t I

{

I also remember hearing people talk ~

,....r 23

• notif3 ing the State.

x 24 ] labout. their' surprise :that-people were considering an

~

n 425L fevacuation and1that they had.come _to'the conclusion that

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naomen sta=.comarws: age fet.. iais oto wLt enoAn. wyowsssNo en teeto -

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they did"not..thinkfit~was wa'rranted'.

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2 Qi Jere you.stil.1,infthe plant:when the conversation w.

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aboutIthe Levacuation' came -up?

3-i

~ 4'

'A L

.IprobNblypstayedhast-turnovertil'labout9:00 i

5~

or 10:00'os(so. 'But ~I'm noti positive.

But, yes.

L6>

Q/

-If you Nereithere.then you were!thero.after because

~

7 as I' recall from the tapes Lthd >NRC called to..the State, the

8 NRC call went out.about 9

15 in the' morning.

9 A

Okay.

10 Q,

S'o if they were talking about the NRC recommenda-

11-tions'thendthey were talkingfabout them at least a few 12f minutes after that,~after 9:15'.-

So, that would-have.put.

~

'you therelon the; basis of logic some --

13:

q, 14-1A Yes.

15 Q

I realize you don' t recall the, tine f rame.

16 A.

8:00 o' clock was not a breakaway point.

17 Q

Did you know that the' Metropolitan Edison 18 operators were deliberately venting the tank as. opposed

~

19_

-to'just-allowing it to. build up1until it relieved pressure 20 on its.own?

.M 21

-A, No,fsir,;I was not aware of a deliberate venting.

F 22 Based:on_ my knowledge'..of 'what -was going on that morning and

'23:

the. couple other. problems.that were --_was occupying people's

~

i.

-24 a ttentions I was. not. aware of a delibera te vent.

- O.c 4

1 R.

25'-

.Q I believe:you were telling us that.'you were 3

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I

' overhearing ~what'the Met-Ed people were talking about 2

related tof the makeup tank and were you at that time, say 5

^

'early in the morning, 5:00, 6:00 o' clock or 7:00 before the d

~

^ '

1200 MR reading was ported,)were. you'atlthat' time in s

n 15 pursuit of what they were. doing ori the makeup tanks trying

^

p 6

. to piece together 'a story (orlwas.your att'empt to piece 7

it together after.the reiease?

s 18 -

A No, it was pretty much a combination of everything 9

you'have.just said.

As I remember, there were:several 10 problems.that they were having..

I believe one of them was 11 loss of letdown or, fluctuations in the letdown flow 12.

coupled with a -- some sort 'of path that had developed 13

that was allowing th'e BWST to. drain either into the suction-14

.of the makeup system or the containment.

I can't remember 15 which.

16 Q

The BW --

17 A

Borated

? Water Storage Tank.

A third problem 18 that I believe that.they were working on -- Oh, they were 19-aware, I believe,.of.high pressure-or increasing pressure 20-either the' waste-gas decay-ta'tka or the VCT.

I'm not

~

.21 sure'which.

)

22 Q

That is the makeup / tank?

7

- o

_Yes.

I was pretty much dividing 'my tirre between

1. 23 <-

,A:

3 c

( 124 trying to understan'd where the/ flow path of the-BWST was or o+1-

' how they 'got into tha t.. problem coupled with again trying to

>253

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a srv.onnewc saeces. w s ora w a no,o. m em,s m n sss,o g*

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'be dedicated to the phone ties between' Region andLthe 2:

HeadquarN rs.aad answer the. plethora of questions that i

3 came through -- that were. coming.through.

4; Q

Whowas'iEth _ Control Roore " f rom = NRC7 2

i

.57

,Was'there an'HP'persontthere?^,'

~

. r.

i.'

t

. A. '

On and off ihere.Jwer'e a: couple of different HP "1

' ) ;p,,

4-7 personnel who came in..There was no,one there who was

(

L ;;"

, z i S!

there full-time as I remember.: 'And I couldn't remember 7

9 the names.

s 10 Q

Were you the only operations person there at 11.-

the time?

12 A

I believe, yes, I was.

I also requested backup 13 coming off that shift becauseLthe need to coordinate O:

14 everything-that was going on,in the Control Room as.well 15 as keep up.with'the.information was just more than one.

16 individual.could handle, 17 Q

.Did you have a-set'of personal notes that you

~

kept on1your. activities where you-noted down?

18 1+

19-

~A

.Yes.

20 Q

Havelyou submitted.these before.in.~any deposition?

5 jj-A' Personal notes?.

122-Q

-Yes.

... l.

'A No.

When you ask for personal-1 notes, I mean, 23 24.

-just: scratches and'. scrawls and bits of information that I N-

'25

. ga t he red as. I --; you know...

5 i

w t

NGdP4PH2C (T4N'Cf. 1413 OLD ylLL WO AD W T OM6SSING. P A 19610

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.I'

'Q Is that something that you retained?

.u

,q h,;{r y

4.

2' (A

f0h, yes, I have!it here, a

g

3

-Q May'we get axcopy of your' notes?

~

4 A

Isure,

-., ' ~

r-t -

5

~

t..

., 8:

-Q 1 would.like;to havela copyTof'those..' How many M

m 6

pages do.you believe. yois lhavelthere?

I.as:2only interested f

.' o s

7 up' through the first 5_dayis,,,through Sunday.

I an only

~

c-i 8

inte res'ted through Su'nday, n

9 -

CA-

[Let's say 30 pages'maybe.

10.

MR.,RIVENBARK:

Can we rec'ess now.

-11

'(Whereupon, a recess-was held.)

-12 BY MR. RIVENBA.RK:, 4.-

15

~

Q.

On'the' record.- How was the communications among-

'14 IEL personnel.a t 'the site handled when you were there?

i How' did they communicate back and. forth with one anotherJ 15-t 16-with-respect to 'the instructions, passing on what one L

[,

group was.doing, anotherzgroup was doing that 17 :

, ou might y

7 m

?l8J

-need'to know about.' ors.just in general how did the IE l

y.

t19; fpeople keep one;alnother~ informed 1while 'you were,at'the' site?

~

- o c20 l-A ;

It,was either[through. direct person contact of.

[:.

)21' eithet opera tions?, personnel: or [10sving the Control. Room i '

v 4

7 222~.

J',.

I>

'..j.

sand meetingcup.with HP.5 personnel"or vice, versa',=HP' i,,

(-.:

+

x,.

+

S 6 23l. _ personnelc.comin'g.lintoithe Control Room.a'nd passing infor-t..

24.;

mation~.

If"youT,earnediaboutlsomething~tha't;youknew,

~

7 e

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HP had(to.know right:a.wayJthere"waslwa.1kie talkies I. _,

./

i 125:

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/ available to try'to raise.them on'the;walkie talkies.

We 2

'also-knew that they were stationed -- wherever they were

.s 3

located,.if'there was a phone line close to them we.had numbers.

We were-in' con' tact that;way.x b

i Q

Did you'have oc'casion to.u'se-a walkie talkie to 6

- raise'somebody?

bo~you..'know/ofotherpeoplelt$natdid?

7 That'.is an operations personnel. that raised.;an' HP person?

8,9

.A I don't specifically recall one.

9l Q-How were com:nunications and the coordination ofi 10 information with NRR at th'e site?

How would you Il characterize the handling of the communica tions and the 12 coordination of the informa' tion with NRR7' That is between 13 IE and NRR?~

14 A

Are you' talking abo'ut' prior to their' arrival

.15 onsite?

16 '.

q,

.No, after arrival.

p I7 A

After the arrival we just kild of merged.

It 18 was at review group that got set up.

And IE as well-as NRR 19 were.together'.

I

20

Q

.Did you participate on a review group as a member i

21 of a review group? '

22

'A Informally.

Now,'we are not talking about a 23 '

pORC' meeting.

24 Q

I understand that.

.25; A

By about 'the second or third day we developed into 64 0 *et C A S7t NO M A PMid $1pV'C f.14 4 3 Q L D M LL 9Q AD W f C M f S SI NG. P A.- 196fD

.; e

~ '

w 26 c

-1'

- -- or divided.~ourselves.up between. people who would monitor

'plantjstatus and those. who' would sit down and look 'over 2

5

'the' development of' contingency plans for, y'ou know, where

'5

'4.

dolwe go from here.

And-that.was part of th'e group that

~

I:

5 started working on procedures,/reviewi g procedures.

~6

Q.

Was this a deliberate mov'e by the IE management' (a..

-7 to divide its people u,p:.into thenie groupsJor was it

'8

.something'that-you'did on.a'n ad hoc ba's'is?~

l9I A

Well, I received specific direction from my section 10 chiefIto, you know, Join up with and start. reviewing the Ili p.rocedures; 12 Q

That is what I was driving at.

c, 13 So, you.wcald characterize'the communications and

.O the site'as being adequate?

jg coordination with'NRR at 1

1 55 A.

Oh, ye s. '

16

..Q Was there snything that-happened on Saturday and j7-Sunday on your shift,that you feel are noteworthy for our

. ;f H. discussion 'here?'. I don 't have any spec'ific quest ions about

~

j9 those' dates for you.

,A2 Not; offhand.

20 (21 hYou are aware, of' course, of the concerns over i

'r22

. the bubble in. the. vessel and, th'ose sort of things, _.the O

J.

f

attempts tha't.were goington to try to define it or quantify

23 it?*

.r2' o

.4]

+

=Q.

The'h'ydrogenIbubble?

m

.yl

}MONWA STI%GNa*ylc *t hvict.. t af a oto wiLL Poso wvow gasNo t'A t es e n-t

• i n

...n.;

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?

27 d;

lt

?

~

I'

'A.-

Hydrogen / steam bubble l.in the. top - 'in the. upper i

2

.part.

'I mean, I'm not saying that there is nothing-

~

3 sign'ificaat that was' going on;those three days.-

4 Q

. I ' apprec ia te tha t.

Thereewas nlot'of concern s-

~

v.

+

5

- about :alot-of ' people }about "the _ possibility of 4 hydrogen.

,:s

. e, ;

o.

e-6 burn or explosions?

H2' *p

W N

7-A Hydrogen notJonly in'.ithe'ves'sel but also the s

{8

~ buildup 'of concentrationsLin.th'e reactor building itself, 4

^

.9 the reco'gn1 tion of'the need'to get a hydrogen recombiner.

~

10'

.Q.

Do.you know when they. finally got that recombiner

11. '

on line?-

12.

A~

No,' I have.been asked that before, too..And I 1h

tihought' I' had it in my.n'otes.

I mean,'if I look back in-

~

14.

my noteslI might be able to pinpoint a day.

15 Q

Did you have some direct involvement in the

.16 evaluation of.the bubble, be' it. hydrogen 'or steam on Saturday or : Sunday?,

17 5

If by direct involvement you mean a: review of

'la A

19 calculations.which provided the estimate.for size, no, I 20 received that second hand through either discussions

c.

~

^'

~ 21 with GPU engineering or, our lown, NRR systems people.who were 9

~

22

. o n 's i t e,..,

f..,.

Ql Is there anything else.that you feel maybe you-T 23 1;,

O - '

2.r'

.should, bring.to my attention that I dido't'ask.you about,

+0' J.

' -25 '

today? isithere some' particula'r area ttiat you believe I E

f,;

s s >

/

4

'I I

[j-

c,- ;

h ' o.

28 0

1

.should'becasking abo't'that I an ' not ask'ing about?

u

([

2 A

Not offhand..

Y

.MR.1RIVENBARK:' Thank'you.

4L

.Mr. Sicilia,'do you have some questions?

5

.IM( MR. SICILIA:

I

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'6

-Q.

Yes.

I want to clarify a few points.

n 7

Let 's go back; to Wednesday, the morning when you 8

were called. into the Emergencp Response ' Center.. You said

'9' you were called-in to sit in on a-conversation.

I am 10 assuming it.was s' conversation from site to Region I?

11 Or' did you indica,te tha t it was from Region I.to 12

. Headquarters?

13 A.

My. conversations were primarily with the 14 Headquarters.

15 Q,

Can you explain your capacity there?.You.were-16' act'ing as a 'communica tor between - -

i 17 A

Essentia11y'a communicator to receive questions, 4

r 18.1 requests for information from Headquarters to either' provide 19 answers to those questions personally or through ~ the:

20 knowledge of. people in the room or if -- and.primarily

~21;

-througn directing questions to.the site via the individual 22 l who was also sitting in the room. and in communica tions 4

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23

~ with the site.

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'Ql So tha t. would indica te' -toe me then tha t there was 10

'afseda'rateconnectionbetweenHeadquartersand'RegionI

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as far as telephone. communications, separate from the 2'

line'.tha t.you had goihg, to the site, a separa te' telephone

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,line from the Region I?;

,4;

!A-Yes.-

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5

.Q

.Tha t. would. be' into Un'it' Two?'

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6 A

The tie from" Reg' ion'I to TMI' site changed that morningand-during~the'da),fIbelieve?,attonepointfor 7

8 sure,the tie'wasl directed to'.thetUnit Two Control < Room 29 because we were'trying to' talk.to our inspectors andlthey were saying that'they had to ge,t off the line to put 10 11'

, respirators on..Now, during the-day ~the Emergency. Center 12 shifted to Unit One.

So, our tie would have been to there-

~

r i3 possibly.

14 Q

Who called you:into't*de Response Center that

.15 morning?

16 A

I' don't know.if it was Eldon or section chief.

17 Q:

Your normal section chief was who a t that< time?

-18 A

Ebie.-

19 Q-Ebie(McCabe?

Who directed you to go to the site'

~ ~

-20 Ethat afternoon?'

s 21

' A :-

Principally Eldon.,

222 Q-You:would.assumeLthen that you'were~ working or

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23.

-you were' reporting oriunder.the direction of Eldon Brunner c-24. at the time and not youronormalJoection chief?: If so, would

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'25 ] that be aniemergencyjorganiza tion and not. a ' normal ~ organization?

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'I consider myself under the A

Oh, certainly.

2' dit ction of'the individuals manning that centor, that 3

-Response Center.

'Q Moving to another' topic.

Earlie'r today we 5

.discusse'd..the in-core thermocouple readings.. -You indicated 6

t'ha t there was-a general discussion'between members o'f GPU, 7

Met-Ed and B&W as well as yourself, a. discussion that dealt 8

with the tendency to think that the'information was 9

unreliable, the information being' received on'the readings, 10. l - the 'in-core thermocouple readings.

You.' indicated that you

~

i 11 discussed tha t with Headquarters and ~ it was decided tha t 12 maybe'they should'believe the information until they could I

13 prove it wrong.. :Is that'not correct?

14 k A

Yes.

15 Q

Can you recall who it was at Headquarters that 16 you discussed this with?

17 A

No.

The people on the Headquarters end were 18 changing.

19

.Q

~At that time was that-line tied into. Region I.and

=20J discussed with members.'at Region I, also?

21 A

Pete, the 3est that I can remember I still had 1

22 a tie:t'o Region I=there, yes.

Now, the direct' ion for what 23!

the thermo.'---you-know, the discussions over what the i

24/.thermocouples were reading and what they meant came O-I

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25 j primarily out.~~of Headquarters.

It was between conversations 2

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'I jbetweenmyselfandfindividu'als'atHeadqcarters.

And I have

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'to say individuals becauha I was' aware of several people 3

on the Headquarters end were probablyfparticipating in

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discussion's in the background.

4

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=5 Q

Nevertheless,though,0basedionthat[ discussion

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16 when it was decided tha't ihdy 'should' believe t$e' information

-7 ;

until it'was proven' wrong did:.y$uTgo'.back then to these

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8-people?-

1 p-

. A.

. Absolutely.

9

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10

.Q Can you'apecifically recall who you spoke with 1'1 an'd relayed that information..to you?

12 A

I got into a discuss' ion with a t least three i

, 13 individuals, Ivan porter --

'14 Q

His affilia tion is wh'a t for ttie record?

. 15

- A;

.GPU.

Lee Rogers, Babcock and Wilcox.

Either 16 George'.Kunder or Jimmy Seelinger from Met-Ed.

17 Q

What was.the reaction when you gave them this

^ 18 information?

19 A

The thrust of'my statements to them'was if you 20 -

'are considhring depressurization you better.think twice 21 based on what-we see here.

And-they said, "Yes, okay',

22 we will get ourLown engineering to look at it."

?

23 Q

It was more or less-a suggestion?' There.was no --

24 A

Well, what'are you 1 coking for?

25 LMR. - SICILIA~:

Off.the record,.please.

.. ~

. MON $ C K Sit NOGh At+df C St #v:CE 149 4 OLD LL RO AD, WYQMs 59t %4 Pk.' 794 BO

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1 (Discussion off the record.)

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2 LBY MR. SICILIA:

3,

Q I have one laat question.

Sh'if t turnover, can you i

O 4

reca11 on Th'ursdar mornins whe rou went erfahift who 5

relieved you?

6 A f Not precisely.

The individuals I was turning over 7

with would havo been either Don Beckman and Walt Baunack B

'or someone else.

I'm'not posit'ive.

9 Q

When you went offshift did you brief these people?

10 A

The shift turnover was usually conducted in the Unit Two s'ift supervisor's office or someplace else that h

11 12 was quieter if need be.

We tr'ied to hold it'in conjunction I

13 i!

with the shif t turnover being given by Met-Ed at the time.

14 So, it was either a' situation where we sat in on their 15 l turnover and we had our turnover.- Then after that we 16 generally went back down to the. Op, Center and turned over 17 again.with whoever was out there.-

18h Q

Can you. remember wholyou relieved Friday night

-19 going o'ffshift?

Or excuse-me,. Thursday night going.offshift?

P 20 j fA

I'm not positive itivasn't still Jim Higgins.

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~

21 Q

What_about Friday?

Can_you recall?

'22 A.

Not offhand.

.23 l

- MR.. SICILIA :

George, I have no further questions.

24l

BY.MRi RIVENBARK:

. 0--

25}

Q-

,I'have here'.lii copy.of the notes'from your notebook, 1

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' Mr.'. htaymond, ' that' we have, had made following our discussions

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'during/thel earlier recess.

I have marked'these notes

'3

,as Raymond Exhibit.C, s

'4 (Whereupon, the' Reporter marked r copy of the 5

notes from Mr. Raymond's notebook as Exhibit C(5169).)

?

i 6

BY NR. RIVENBARKi o

?

E, 7

Q I.believe thes'e-notes extend through.the period i

i' 4

8 Wednesday, Thursday an'd, Friday the first-three-days of the 9

incident.

If you would'look at !this' copy that we made and

~

10 see if that is.the period that it covers!

11 A

Yes, I agree that it does cover that period.

12 Q

I.noted one chart that we neglected to make that 13 we didn't copy the backside of one page in your notes which O-14 is headed 5:00 p.m. on 3/28 which is the-diagram that 15 I believe'you indicated you prepared in your discu sion

~

16 with Mr. Herbein?-

17 A

.That is correct.

18 Q

I believe it would be satisfactory for me to 9

obtain this char,t later and add it' to that list.

Aside j

~20 from this one chart I believe.that we do have copies of 21' the pages' from those first - three days.

22' I notice in reading 'through your notes during 23 our conversations as.welread-throughIthe notes together I

that we both saw early 'in ' the notes' an - item marked PORV 24 LO 1

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.open super-heated. stem's.

Now, I believe in our discussion' 2

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(during,thefrecess that you indicated this part of the t

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. notes would have been'taken during.your conversation with

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.Herbein?

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A' That'is' correct.

5 Q

Looking at that note now is1there anything that 3

4-y.

i A

6-you would like to modify'in your earlier' statements;about 4,

7 the extent of your knowledge.ofcour discussions concerning 0

.-..i 8-

.the super-heated steam with'.Mr. Herbein?-

3:

'9'

~A Yes, based on my notes:now contrary to what I had

10 stated _before there.was an: exchange -- there was a

.'1 1 statement made between myself and Jack Herbein that we did

~

12-have a super-heated condition..

13 Q

Is there anything else that you would like to say 14 at this time about ~ those notes?

~

15 A

Not offhand.;

16 MR. RIVENBARK:

Thank'you.

I believe that we p

have completed our questions for today.

,18 Let me say that this is'an on4 going investigation.

~

39 Although I.have. completed.'the questions.'I have for you 20 today we may need 'to bring you back for further

~

'21 depositions._ We will, however, make every effort to avoid'hahingtodo'so.

22 '.

23

'I Will'now; recess _this. deposition rather than i+ _

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.C I 24 terminate'it.<.

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I do want.toqthank you-for your candidness and 25' [-

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?your coming. up from Three Mile Island.to tal'k to us today.

2 (Whereupon, at 2:38 p.m.,

the deposition was y

..3 recessed.)

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- 4 5

' CERTIFICATE I, Roxanne We' aver,: _the officer,before.whom the 6

i deposition 'of WILLIAM J. 'RAYMOND kras taken, do hereby.

7' 8..

certif y that WILLIAM' [. RAYMOND,. the witness whose -

9

-testimony appears-in the' foregoing deposition, was duly 10 sworn on October 12, 1979, and~that.the tranacribed

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11 deposition of said witness is a true record of thp +.

12 testimony given by him;.that the proceedings are here-

.13f

, recorded fully and accurately; that-I am neither attorney l

14 nor counsel'-for, nor related to any of the parties to 15 the3 action in which this deposition was taken, and 16 further that I am not a relative of any attorney or 17 I counsel employed by the parties hereto, or financially 18 interested in this action.

19

/20, MMse s -

RpanneWeaver, _ Reporter-Notary Public Nota y Public in and for the

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22;

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

- );d _

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'MONICK STENOGRAPHIC SERVICE

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'My' Commission expires p)~.;

Jul'y 18', :1983

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women sen,ocn4*-,c senvics -Jim os o mt. vo4 5 wvo=,ss w. n,.eso i

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I have read the above and it is true and-correct x.

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'to the'best of my knowledge and belief

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3'.

.M' Wil11am J. Raymond

5

~ Sworn to and subscribed before me by said j

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William 1J. R'aymond 'this day of-

,.1979 4

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Notary:Public

'9 My Commissiorf ixpires -

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