ML19305A468

Cover Sheet of Transcript of 790517 Second Meeting of Presidents Commission on Accident at TMI in Middletown,Pa. Pp 1-42

ML19305A468
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Site:	Crane
Issue date:	05/17/1979
From:	PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ACCIDENT AT THREE MILE
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l THE PRESIDEi!T'S C0f911SSION ON THE ACCIDENT AT THREE MILE ISLAtlD SECOND MEETING 9:00 A.M.

THURSDAY, MAY 17, 1979 I

AT MIDDLETOWJ!, PENNSYLVANIA i

THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS

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74ASHINGTON, D.C.

5 f4EDNESDAY,, APRIL 25, 1979 6

10:15 A.M.

w :.33 D_z.c.S l

5 COMMISSIONERS STAFF 9

John Kemeny, Chairnan Michael Hollis 10 Bruce Sabbitt Sarbara Jorgensen Patrick Haggerty Bruce Lundin 11 Paul Marks Ro..nald Natalie Cora Marre::

Kare-.~5and-l'. -

12 Lloyd McBrid.e

~~

Harry _P'cPherson

,i 13 Du -

/ s.assell Peterson Thomas Pigford 14 Theodore Taylcr Anne Trunk 15 16 ALSO PRESENT 17 Judge Carl McGowan, to administer the cath of office.

18 19 20 21 23 24 25 L

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(10 :15 a.m. )

2 CHAI.V.AN KEMENY:

Will the meeting please ccme to 3

crder.

This is the opening meeting of the President's 4

Ccamission on the Accident at Three Mile Island and may the 5

record show that although we were appcinted en shcr: notice, 6

jus: two weeks ago, all eleven Con =issioners eune present.

I We will begin with a swearing-in ceremony and are greatly 3

honored that Judge Carl McGewan of the U.S. Circuit Court of 9

the United States Court of Appeals cf the District of 10 Columbia Circuit is present with us :

perform the swearing-11 in ceremony.

Judge McGowan, ycu honor us with your presence and I guess I'm.,cg_,' g

,qe75.s y-rst one :

be sworn i:i. ~ '-

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13 (Whereupen, Chairman Kameny was sworn in by Judge 14 Carl McGowan. fcilowed by the other members of the Commisssion, 15 and the Staff.)

16 CHAIRMAN 'G.MErf:

Thank you very much, Judge.

Will

,I the staff please take their places.

IS Before my opening remarks as Chairman, it oce"--ad 19 to se that it is not only that the public may not know mes 20 of us ; until today, most of us have not met most of the res:

.3 of us, and while we were hencred by meeting with the.residen:

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c: :he United states this morning, we had very,1 :_,e oppcrtu-23 nity to get acquainted and perhaps going around the table, and each of saying two or three sentences abou: Ourselves may be useful.

I migh explain'c the press, the audience,

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perhaps the manner of seaming.

I thought it would be 2

easiest to identify pecple by having them si: in alphabetical 3

Order

and, other than

myself, it is alphabetical 4

order going around in a semi-circle that way.

So, if you 5

wish to follow the cast of characters from your program, 6

that may be helpful to you.

let me star by in reducing myself; I's Jchn Kemeny. I have a PhD in mathematics.

Ive

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5 taught mathemcrics and philosophy at both Princeton and 9

Dar:mcu h.

I've had a fair amoun to do with computers 10 and for the last nine years, I've been president of 11 Darracuth College.

Governer Sabbi :?

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12 COMMISS_FJsER BA3BITT:

Mr. Chairman, my namE is 13 3.'uce Babbitt.

My educational background includes a Master's 14 Degree in physics but somewhere along the line, I degenerated 15 and went into politics and I'm new the governor of Ari:ena.

16 COMMISSIONER EAGGERTY:

Mr. Kemeny, I'm Pat 1~

Eaggerty.

I'm an electrical engineer and until retiremen IS a couple or years back, a was in a succession c: c:::ces 19 at Texas Instruments..

Most of my. professional.

20 career, I've been involved in electronics, especially,

.sy semi-conductors, but electronics in general.

COMMISSIONER MARKS:

I'm Paul Marks.

I have an

• 3 M.D. degree.

.In.my research, I've been primarily invcived

.,4 in basic research related to problems of genetics and diseases in cancer.

For the last nine years, I have been i

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Vice Presiden: Of Health Sciences a: Columbia University.

2 COMMISSIONER MARRETT:

Dr. Kemeny, I'm Ccra S.

3 Marrett.

My degree is in socicicgy.

I've taught a: the 4

Universities of North Carcline and Western Michigan and I'm 5

currently a faculty member, in socio'cgy and Afrc-American 6

studies, at the University of Wisconsin in Madison.

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COMMISSIONER McBRIDE:

Chairman Kemeny, my name 3

is Lloyd McBride.

I's, for the past thirty-nine years, mes:

9 of my adult life, I've been a career unionist.

At present, 10 I as privileged to serve as the President of the Interna-11 tional Union of United Steelworkers er America.

I've been 12 in that capacity for the past two years.

13 COMMISSIONER Mc?HERSON:

Cr. Kemeny, I's Harry 14 McPherson.

I'm a lawyer here in Washington.

I was in 15 government for thirteen years, the last four of it as is Special Counsel to President Johnson and have been in private 17 practice since then.

13 COMMISSIONER PETERSON:

Mr. Chairman, I'm Russell 18 Peterson.

I have a Ph.D in chemistry and I've spent twenty-

.,o six years with the DuPont Company running research divi-21 siens, designing and operating some chemicas, plants.

.w was governor c: Delaware fer fcur years and chairman of the President's Council on Environmental Quality for three 34 years and head of a national citizen's group, called "New Di-I 25 i

rections,I' and up intil three weeks age, I was direc cr of the' l

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Congressional office of Technology Assessment, and now I 2

have the honor of being President of the National Audubon 3

Society.

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COMMISSIONER FIGFORD:

Mr. Chairman, my name is 5

Thomas Pigferd.

I have a doctorate in chemical engineering.

6 I have been, for the last twenty-nine years, in the field

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of nuclear energy by teaching. and research in chemical 3

and nuclear engineering at M.I.T. and, during the last wenty 0

years, at the University of California at Berkeley.

10 COMMISSIONER TAYLOR:

Mr. Chairman, my name is 11 Ted Taylor.

I have a Ph.

in theora"#-al ohysics.

I've spen: mos: nr. my professional career on applications of 12 13 nuclear energy.

I'm now a visiting professor a: Prince:cn 14 University,. half-time.

15 COMMISSIONER TRUNK:

Mr. Chairman, my name is 16 Anne Trunk.

I'm a housewife.

I've been =arried twenty-l

four years and I have six children.

18 CHAIRMAN KIMENY:

Thank you, Mrs. Trunk.

I'=

19 going to delay introducing the staff members so far on

• 0 board for the Commission, because my, after my opening 21 statement, I'm going to discuss what I have done so far

.m on staff organization and what I hope the Commission as

'3 a whole will do and I'd like to make those remarks before 24 introcucing ine star.,.

.'5 The President's Commission on the Accident at

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Three Mile Island was established by Executive Order 12130 i

2 exactly two weeks ago today.

On the basis of tha: Executive 3

Order, a charter has been issued fer this. Commission which 4

is available to all Co=missioners.

5 I think it would be appropriate for me := star i

6 by reading frem that charter the part dealing with the I

functions of the Commissicn.

Under Section 3 of the Charter 3

it says, "the purpose of the Cc= mission is to ccnduct a 9

comprehensive study and investigation of the recent acciden:

10 involving the nuclear power facility on Three Mile Island 11 in Pennsylvania.

The Commis = 4

' - *-"'-> ' d investigation

. ade:

13 sha,,,,_

n(a) a tecn.nica_. assessment of the events and 14 their causes; this assessment shall include, but shall not i

15 be limited to, an evaluation of the actual and potential 16 impact of the events on the public health and safety and II on the health and safety of workers; IS n(b) an analysis or tn.e role or the managing 19 u;g;;77; a0

"(c) an assessment of the emergency preparedness 21 and response of the Nuclear Regula:Ory Ccamission and other

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Federal, state and local authcrities; s.

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"(d) an evaluation of the Nuclear Regula:Ory C:= mis-24 sion,s,acensing, inspection, cperation and enforcemen:

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procedures as applied to this facility; 1

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"(e) an assessment of how the public's righ to 2

information concerning the events a ' Three Mile Island was served and of the steps which should be taken during similar 3

emergencies to provide :.2e public with accurate, ccmprehen-4 sable and timely in:ormatien; and 5

6

"(f) appropriate reccamendaticas based upon the i

I Commission's findings."

I'm quite sure all Commissioners have though; a 8

9 deal about our charge, but I think I can safely say tha great 10 I've : spent. more hours, day and night, worrying about this

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11 charge than anyone else.

.nerefore, I would like to give you my view of 13 what the President of the United States has charged us with.

3-14 I: seems to me the charge very clearly falls into two parts.

15 Part one can be oversimplified by saying:

find out absolutely 16 everything there is to know abou: the accident at Three Mile 17 Island.

Part two is to make recommendations based on these 18 findings.

I would like to take a few minutes to discuss 19 each part of the two-part charge, because they're very 20 different.

They're both very important and we must work 21 extremely hard at both halves of our task.

22 Part one is very specifically spelled out in 23 Parts (a) through (e) of our charter.

We have o find out 24 precisely what happened at Three Mile Island.

We have to 25 find out the rcles of the various participants, very i

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specifically including the Nuclear Regula: cry C:= mission, 2

the interaction among Federal, state and local agencies, 3,

the dangers, the possible dangers :: health, and the 4

availability of infornation throughout this period, accurate in:crmation, as the President emphasize,_ :..nis scrning, :ren

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whatever source, available to the public.

In short, as I said earlier, we are trying Ic

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nd cut abso_,utely every.s..ng we can accut hree y;..;e s2and.

6.

9 The charge in itself lists a huge nu=ber of items, but this 10 investigation is Tike almes any investigation.

There are 11 a ways things :na turn up during 1: :na: ncne a:- us can,cre-12 see at.the accent and c 2erefore, cresumably, any 22:

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===.e.

13 wien is going to be faulty in tha you will, the lis: will 14 grew as we learn more and scre abou: the Three Mile Island 15 incident.

16 There is one thing I wanted to share with all 17 Ccanissioners.

Two weeks ago.teday, when I was standing in 18 the Oval Office, first time in my life I had the hencr 19 to meet the President of the United States.

I'd already 20 been shown the charge, I'd agreed Oc serve, and he gave me

.as: minu.te instructions en his wishes on this Commission.

21 A

Then he asked if I had any questions.

The questien I asked the President of the United States was the following:

• 3 "Mr. President, I have no preconceived ideas, therefore de not knew where this investigation will lead.

Sur may I 25 1

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assume that no matter where i leads, you will wan: :

2 know the truth."

And the President responded by saying, 3

" Absolutely, I would not have it any c:her way."

I'm quering 4

that from memory, but I think I'm close enough :c the sub-5 stance of it.

And, I said, Mr. President, in tha

case, 6

I have ne second question.

I think it is imper an: for I

the entire Commission to knew cf that.

3 Tc carry cu part one of the charge, we mus find 1

9 all the facts relevant; perhaps in some cases, digging up 10 the facts may be an appropriate expression here.

We will 11 have to understand them, and ye '29-ha re' fc."=ach Com # ssion i

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censensyg en wha: these facts are and wha: they mean.

If will, as you see in these remarks, emphasize the i=portance 14 for wort'.ng long enough to get Cc= mission consensus.

And 15 then we have an additional task which is not explicitly 16 mentioned in our Executive Order, but it was mentioned by 1~

the President of the United States this scrning and I would 18 have mentioned it in any case.

Mainly, that we have the respct l'

sibility not just to bring it to the point where we, as a 20 Commission understand it, but to the point where the 21 American people can understand in clear and simple language the findings of this Commission I'm not putting

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U ou:.of bounds having technical appendices if these are 2'

necessary, but ! think there has te be a centra:1 part of 25 our report that everycne can understand.

1 Mrs. Trunk, I had the great pleasure ci seeing you 2

en a certain television shew one =orning.

I enjcyed your 3

appearance and you made the remark there that I think is 4

tremendously i=portant.

I-had already started thinking 5

about what I would say on my first public appearance as 6

Chairman and I decided then that I wanted := cucre ene thing I

you said.

Amongs; several interesting things you said, 8

one thing you said that par: of your rcle en this Ccemission 9

would be that they will have :: explain it so that I can 10 understand it.

Mrs. Trunk, I'd like to join you in 11 1

that "they,".and there 'll be a pff m.:y " :,eys," will have n

explaf.} 3 5o that I can understand it, and sc tha; every

, gle me=ber of this Cc==ission can understand it,

13 sin and tha:

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14 often will not be easy.

15 The problem is that while the composition of this 16 Commissien is such, that collectively as a Cc==ission, 17 we represent an enormous amcun of expertise, we are no 18 here to divide the job that Professors Taylcr and Pigford 19 will make the nuclear decision, Dr. Marks will make the to biological decisions.

We as a Commission must reach consen-21 sus and, while collectively we represent a great deal

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of knowledge, individually, let me speak for myself, I als.

23 represent, a high degree of ignerance.

There is a subject

• 4 on which I can bring expertise, there are others on 25 which I have the knowledge of an intelligen

layman,

11 1-10 I

and subj ects we. will deal with tha: I knew absciurely nothing 2

at all about, but am determined to beccme an exper: en in 3

the next six months.

4 So it is very imper: ant that we canr.;

expect 5

any one person to be an expert on all the issues, so we 6

will have to understand it, and we will :;nen have to explain it so tha: the American pecple clearly understand what we're

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3 saying.

It. is obviously a majcr investigation, i:

9 will be a major learning experience for all of us, which 10 will begin tomorrow and I've arranged for a lecture for 11 the Commission on how a nuclear power plant cperates, and 12 I'm sure there will be other kinds of briefings tha: the 13 Cc= mission may wish si= ply as part of their learning 14 experience.

15 Our staff must help us in both of these activities.

16 Clearly they are the investigative arm of the Commission; II a: the same time, they are charged with helping to educate IS tne Commission on a wide variety of ways.

en add. : en to 19 the obvicus sorts of things, such as making sure we have

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the necessary documents and briefing papers, it has occurred :O me that some fai dy-simple things would help us'an enormous

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amount and I'll give these simply as examples.

It wculd 23 help, we'll be dealing with a grea

=any pecple and a grea:

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many agencies, if a staff member could keep. track of the case of 25 characters and a=et c

agencies we're dealing w;;h, 1

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wculd find that mos: helpful.

I show ycu the degree of preccc -

2 ception on scme of the issues'we're dealingl.with'r berught Oc 3

This by tell3ng a small story that happened two weeks. age todav 4

As we were rushing to the '.lhite Ecuse for the public 5

announcement of this Cc= mission, my wife was with me and 6

madly reading me from all kinds of cxcerpts from the public press and we were having terrible trouble with the Federal 3

Governmen alphaber scup of agencies, trying ic figure out 8

which is which, which is why I'm bringing up this item.

10 I hope the staff will keep a list of them sc we can cuickly 11 remember what XYZ stands for; and scme abbreviations she la recogniced; some I recogniced, and then she came 0 one 13 that said, NRC; I said, Jean, don't worry, that one I knew 14 all about, I served on it, I have close associations with 15 it, I know all about the National Research Council.

I 16 did before that day was over discover tha: there is another 17 agency whc.se abbreviations are NRC, which I literally had no:

18 heard of earlier, and that part, a good part of our charge 19 deals with that particular agency.

That's why I'm suggesting 20 that having such a list would be helpful.

21 It also occurred to me that we'll have such an

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enor=cus amount of technical material.

You'll have to l

23 forgive =e, I've been a teacher much longer than I have 24 been a college presiden and obvicusly much icngar than 25 I've been chairman of a ec= mission, but as a reacher, I

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jus: think it could be terribly helpful if the staff 2

on an ongoing basis updated the glossary of Technioci terms 3

that we will be dealing with.

I think that would be 4

tremendously helpful to all of us.

I: sight be a very 5

useful appendix to any repoS" we publish at the end of it.

6 That's part one of our charge to find all, to find cu-I all about Three Mile Island.

Par two is in the charter in 3

a very simple sentence. "to =ake appropriate recommendaticas 9

based upon the Commission's findings."

10 I found it most helpful to go back to the public 11 statement of the President of the United States two weeks 12 ago today to find further guidance as to what this exactly 13 seans.

.I would like to read you his very brief statemen:

14 from then.

I'm going to omit the portion of it dealing 15 with the qualifications of the Commission and of its Chair-16

=an.

I'll. read the substantive part of the statement in 1

its entirety.

And I quote the President:

IS "In my address to the Nation last week, I anneurced 19 that I would appoint a Presidential Commission to investigate ao the nuclear accident at Three Mile Island.

It is essential 31 that we learn,the causes of this accident and make sure tha the safety of our ewn citizens is never again endangered in

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33 this way.

I'm now skipping the portion dealing with the Commission.

..nd a-go on quoting:

25 "Tha: task will be one of the most importan:

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ever undertaken by a Presidential Ccmmission.

The Commission 2

will find ou what happened at Three Mile Island.

It will 3

assess hcw the accident could have been prevented.

It will 4

review how the government and others responded, and it will 5

make recommendations to enable us to prevent any future 6

nuclear accidents.

There can be no doubt that the eyes of the i

I Nation and indeed of the entire world will be en this 3

Cc= mission.

s judgment will. nave encrmous impact.

I am 9

confident that during its six months of operation, this 10 Ccmmission will make the right judgments and the Naticn will 11 long be in its debt."

12 Responding to that, I started cut by saying tha 13 that is an awesome responsibility and nothing has happened 14 in the intervening two weeks to change my mind.

Members 15 o: the Ccm=ission, we do have an awesome responsibility.

16 Let me read you the crucial paragraph again.

"The 1

Commission will find ou what happened at Three Mile Island, 18 it will assess how the accident could have been prevented, it 19 will. review..how the government and other responded, and it m

will make recemmendations to enable us tc prevent any future 21 nuclear accidents."

I presume the reference here is Oc

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nuclear pcwer plants and accidents in them.

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It was indeed an extremely bread charge and I tried rese_,ve in my own mind.now par: cne and part two c:- :ne 25 charges relare tc sach other.

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It seems to me that we're instructed to take the 2

in-depth investigation of Three Mile Island as a case study 3

and then based on what we learn there, make recccmendations.

4 But quite clearly the recccmendations we make are not t

restricted to that particular power plan: but deal in 6

general with the prevention of nuclear accidents at power I

plants.

I start with a Octally open mind on this.

I have 3

no idea where the investigation will lead and, therefore, 8

I have no idea even as to wha: the possible recc=mendations 10 could be.

I will urge the Commission very strongly that 11 we complete part one first.

Do all the fact finding and l

evaluation of what happened here and then, once that is 13 behind us, we meet and meer intensively to try :

formulate l'

the reccamendations for the future, and I urge the Commission 15 and certainly myself no to engage in any speculation as 16 to what recommendations we might come up with until we 17 have found the necessary facts.

I hope again that we will IS find overwhelming consensus on the recommendations.

I 13 expect that those, in addition to any technical appendices.they 1

20 need,.will be written in clear and understandable language so

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the American people will know what we are saying. I'll do

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everything humanly possible to achieve that consensus.

If 23 necessary, I'm going Oc ask Presiden: Carter :

lack us up 24 a: Camp David until we reach agreement.

25 Launched on. a very dejor project in a limited

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ime, we'll have many obstacles, we may hear conflicting 2

testimony, we may have restimony.so technical that we can't 3

follow it.

I knew tha: One of our najcr tasks, which I'll 4

be discussing with the Ccmmission this afterncen, is hcw 5

to retain the services en either a full or par time basis 6

of distinguished scientists who can bc h assist us and help I

interpret to us the evidence that we have heard in case --

8 in effect help the education of these of us who need help 9

on any particular topic.

10 The timing is very clear by the' President's Order.

11 The Cc= mission is to report six =cn:hs from the date of its 12 firs: =eeting and will terminate two =cn:hs after that.

13 Today is the 25th,of April.

There:cre, cur : nal repor 14 must be in the hands of the Presiden; of the United States 15 and, of course, will be publicly released as the ?residen:

16 assured all of us this morning, by Oc:cber 25th, which is II six months from today.

The Commission terminates two =cn:hs 18 after that date.

I can't help noting for the record tha 19 that happens to be Christmas day and I'd like to conclude ao my opening remarks by saying that I hope eight cenths from

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new we'll be in a position to wish each other a very happy

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Christmas with the feeling that we have performed a very 23 sa3cr sers ce :cr the country,.

and :.cr all citicens 0:-

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this country and for the rest of the wcrld.

25 Cur next item on the agenda is scme remarks on

17 1-15 1 how I went about staff crganization, what I have done and wha:

2 I..have intentionally nor dene, and a very brief in:reduccica 3

of the staff we have on board.

I think you have the biographie:

4 and all of those are available, and charefere.both to the Ccmq l

5 mission and to the public and, charefore, I am going to make dh+

6 introductions very brief.

I The President of the United States personally 8

appointed the eleven Commissioners.

In the Ixecutive Order, 9

he charged the Chairman of the C = mission to appoint the 10 staff.

That created the following dile==a for me; 11 on the one hand I felt an enormous sense of urgency to ge:

12 this Commission going, en the other hand, I wanted here 13 as I will in all future dealings,

c make sure that I do l'

not take away from the right of the Cc= mission to make its 15 cwn plans.

'I

-resolved this dile=ma by dividing the 16 task into two parts.

I felt I had Oc recruit the key senicr 17 staff members and have them on board by cday; otherwise, 18 there would have been no one to arrange this meeting; I think 19 it would have been a terrible thing if they had not been 40 present to hear the deliberations of the Ccamission from 21 the very beginning.

I'm certain tha: the Cc= mission will

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ccme up with a number of instructions on what kinds of

.3 folicw-up activity they wish and clearly we needed a full

.,4 staff :

carry that out, and I want :0 be certain that we 25 have cur full staff, or as close to full staff as possible,

3 3r 1-17 1 before.the next meeting of the Commission.

On the other hand, 2

I decided no: to touch the questien of who our key scientists 3

will be.

I thought it was no: necessary for the firs: see -

4 ing of the Cc= mission. I thought that we will be giving 5

signals to the curside world; I fel: tha: the composition 6

is vital here and sensicive; I felt, therefore, tha: this

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decision should be made by the entire Ccamission and we 3

w 1.3 be going into executive sess On :nis afterncen c

9 discuss possible names :_or our senior starr and Junior 10 staff members on the scientific side.

11 We have been sent literally hundreds of names end I'm 12 leaving entirely :o the Commission the decision of hcw to 13 choose from these.

14 In thinking about the crganization of the key staff, 15 I decided on three se.nior star:- memcers:

the star:-- carec cr, 16 a ense:- counsel and a public in:crmat on director.

. hey II will report directly Oc the Cecrission, through its Chairman; 18 therfore, they have a degree of independence from each other.

19 Let me describe their duties in reserve order frcm what I've a0 s aid..

The Public Informatica Direc cr's task is quite

.,3 clear: to provide the public with information and :o help

.m the Commissioners in any roles tuhy may play at any time

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a3 in dealing with the public media.

The Chief Ccunsel is chief

.,4 counsel who will give us legal advice; fortunately he was 05

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n :ncut.na.s One c: tne c.eco.le dent : ed e=~'.

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presence, this would be an illegal meeting of the Cem=ission.

2 We have found out all the legal things we have te go through 3

to advertise this meeting, etc. and quite clearly he will 4

guide us in a wide variety cf ways.

He will be available to us i

3 during =eetings,.give legal counsel, help us with exam # nation 6

of witnesses and, in general, perform the functicas 7

of chief counsel.

The S aff Direc:cr will have all the 3

rest of the staff reporting to him and he has the rather 9

major and overwhelming responsic 11:y or provicing star:--

10 support for everyone else.

That means, both the investi-11 gative part of the staff will reper: to him 12 provide staff support for the entire Cc= mission for legal course 13 and for the public Information Director and for the scientists 14 we 2ay hire for this Commission.

Therefore, clearly the bulk 15 of our staff will report there; we don't know exactly hcw 16 many we will have.

It might be up to the order of 24znitude or. twenty-:..:ve star: members over the nex six 18 months ceriod.

i 19 What I thought most about, after I managed to get tr e

)

l 0

basic staff.organiza:icn, is, what is the relation be-21 1

tween the Cc= mission and the staff?

And I couldn't help j

\\

l

ninking abcut what particular role the Chairman has ::

1 23 play.

It was made very clear :

me by the White House that if I accepted the chairmanship, I would have to devcTe

.'5 a very substantial amount of my time :

the work of this l

1

,n.

1-19 1

Commission.

~

2 Mathematicians have a tendency of thinking in 3

analogies.

tried several analogies, and while none is 4

perfect, I've come up with one that seemed :

me no a

5 bad one and one with which I have some slight familiarity--name-d ly, the decision-making structure of a university.

The I

university operates under a charter usually issued by a 3

state.

.In _

this particular case for us, the charter, of course 9

was issued by the President of the United States.

sugges:

10 to you it's a fairly reasonable analogy Oc think of the 11 Commission as being the beard of trustees er playing the role 12 tha: the board of trustees play in a university.

The board 13 has the task of spelling out the mission of the institution, 14 here the Commission, under the general' charter.

Clearly, 15 we must operate under the charter given to us by the 16 President of the United States, but within that, the 1I beard of trustees, that is the Commission, presumably 18 has the responsibility of cpelling ' cut exactly 19 what the mission is and how it should be approached, and

'O like the board of trustees, the Ccamissioners will make

.1 all the key policy decisions.

The most importan: ones xe our

na_3 reccamendations.

i in our case, or course, wil_3 l

.3 On the other hand, the beard has neither the time nor the availability in Washing cn := carry cu: the mission eD itsel:.

mhs.s is why univers;:les nave admin strations

m. -

1-20 1

and I.suggest that the staff si the analog, of the administra-I tion.

The staff has a dual relationship to the board, namely 3

it carries out the mission of the university, that is here the 4

misrion of the Co= mission, according 6 the policies laid down 5

by the Commission, and must, in return, porvide all information 6

needed and requested by board, in this case, Commission members.

3 That left me with the dilemma as to what my role 9

is in the whole business.

'4 hen I ahd gotten this for in the 10 university analogy, 1 occurred to me that there is a 11 rather peculiar position in mos; universities of a person 1.,

who both is a member of the board of trustees and has the 13 responsibility or supervising the starr.

~ hat person is t

14 usually known as the president of the university and has 15 a rather strange dual role, which seems to se a very good 16 analog, at least for my role in this Commission, that when I

Sit with the Commission in' deliberations,

I'm 18 simply one of the eleven people, I happen to have the task of 19 chairing'it, but as far as voting goes, I'm simply one 20 of eleven votes in setting policies.

On the other hand, 21 I'm charged with supervising the staff and making sure

.m

~~

that all of the directives of the board are carried out, tha:

23 the staff does exactly what you want it to do, to resolve 9

~

l disputes among staff members as they may arise, to meet with them between board meetings, and do everything possible

97

,1-21 scb 1

to make sure tha: the staff is, in effect, carrying cut the 2

mission of this Commission.

I may say that all strikes scme 3

level cf faniliarity to me, and I have rearranged my life 4

during the las two weeks and as I pledged to the ?residen:

5

'of the United States this morning, I'm available for up c

6 half of my rotal time for the life of this Commissien and 7

that's the half that will receive highest priority in my S

life.

9 I would like to conclude by introducing the staff 10 members.

But before doing so, it would be unjust if I did not 11 briefly give thanks to those who have made the las: two weeks 12 possible.

Remember I was here in Washing:On briefly for a 13 two-hour meeting in the White Ecuse the day after the appoin -

14 ment, trying Ic set as much in motion as I could, and then 15 both had to go home to cancel almost everything I had planned 16 to do for the next six months, including :a four weeks vaca-1.

tion.

And while I was doing -hat, trying := cake the key 18 staff appointments.

I first would like to thank Commissioner 19 McPherson, who offered his services early in effect to be my o

representative in Washington, and de scme or the preliminary

.,1 Interviewings cr me, and it was the only way tha: :ne ;cc

.m could have been done from a long distance.

Thank you very 1

23 much.

Secondly, I'd like to thank a number of White Ecuse 24 staff members who were enormously helpful :

an inexperienced l

25 chairman in a stage of transition.

I would like :

express w

h

2.,

-22 scb 1

particular thanks to the Office of the President's Science 2

Advisor, for being most helpful threughou: the entire prccess.

3 i received.ne.3pru_, suggestions :rca a numser c:

tmissioners.

u 4

I talked to each of them en the phone, and have received 5

hundreds of suggestions frca curside and I am grateful for d

those.

There,s one.Aas person.. nave to n.anx.

,s my a

S first appointment and my briefes one, I asked him :0 serve 9

as a special advisor to the Chairman for a period of two weeks 10 until our first meeting, to tell the Chairman how one goes 11 about forming a s aff for a commission like this.

An cid 12 friend and scmeone I respect greatly, a distinguished 13

'4ashington attorney, Mr. Berl Bernhard, who has served as 14 Staff Director of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission with grea:

15 distinction,

.was the one person I've known very well per-1 16 sonally who could tell me how one gets started -- whenever 1

putting such a staff together.

Berl, I hope you're in the IS audience, I think you are.

If you are, thanks far your help 10 in these two weeks as it wculd not have been possible without.

a0 you.

1

.n Now let me announce the appointmen Of the three key 1

22 staff members.

The staff director is Bruce T. Lundin, with

(

23 a degree in mechanical engineering frcm the Univers ty or l

24 California, and a long and distinguished career whic h ycu will 25 see in the detailed biographical statemen: that 's be ing

~

e

2'a 1-23 sch I

distributed.

He is retired from NASA fairly recently, that 's 2

why he was available ediately. And amongs: his cualification 3

that are mentioned, simply the most important one, as you will -se 4

frem the biographical statement that he served in the earlier 5

days, and then chaired, a large number of the investigations 6

in NASA dealing with varicus kinds of problems NASA had --

~

that somewhat have analogies to the kind cf investigation S

that we have had, things having to de with accidents, mana-9 gerial problems, these internal operational problems in NASA, 10 he really became an expert on this and comes to us with the 11 very strongest recommendations of all those whc know him.

12 Bruce Lundin is sitting on my left, and your right.

13 Bruce joined us yesterday and is now going out to 14 hire the major par: of the staff; the timing of that is for-15 runate in a way -- we wish it could have been earlier, but 16 Bruce feels he will profit greatly from hearing the discussict 1~'

or the Ccmmission this a::erncon be cre ne nas to nare any or-13 his associates.

19 Chief Counsel is Ronald 3. Natalie, graduated frca 20 Tufts College and has a law degree from George Washington 21 University, a distinguished Washington at:ceney trial lawyer,

.m and -- I'm very pleased to introduce en my right, ycur left, 23 Ron Natalie our Chief Counsel.

n Our Public.an:crmation Director s.sarcara ucrgensce, j

25 who will be on leave of absence.

Incidentally, I shculd say

~

1 o

h

25

-24 sch 1

in the case of Mr. Lundin, he was in retirement and we coaxed 2

him out of it.

In the case of our Chief Counsel, he resigned 3

from the law firm that he ucrked with previously.

Barbara 4

Jcrgenson will be on leave of absence, a Director of Media 5

Relations at the National Academy of Sciences.

She's a grad-6 uate and did graduate work in the University of Florida in 7

Gainesville and through her experience at the National Academy 3

cf Sciences, she is knowledgeable both in public informatica 9

and most importantly, in public informaticn where dealing with 10 scientific subjects.

I take great pleasure in introducing 11 Barbara Jorgensen, on the left there.

12 Then I'll ask the staff members who have been success-13 ful in recruiting some aides in the process, to introduce them s.

14

-- I guess, Bruce, you haven't had the chance yet?

15 MR. LUNDIN:

Not yet.

16 CEAIRMAN KEMENY:

Ron Natalie, would you introduce 1

the staff who is present?

18 MR. NATALIE:

Certainly.

We have been fortunate i

19 in getting two people to serve in. The Chie:_ Counsel's o r_:_:.ce.

20 To my right is Mr. Michael R. Hollis, who is -- was, associ-l

'1 l

ated with a very large and distinguished law firm in Atlanta, which he has resigned frem.

And during the period last week i

\\

~

33 when we were all in Hanover meeting with Dr. Kemeny, Michael 1

'\\

\\

n no;_ s was the Com=. ssion stac:--

cr a considerable per cc.

25 of ti=e, and he acquitted himself with grea distincticn.

He

..so

'_-25 scb i

former presiden cf the Law Studen: Division of the American 2

Bar Asscciation, and a Dartacuch graduate, distinguished 3

Dartmouth graduate, and will be of grea: assistance :: The l

4 Cccmission.

i 5

My administrative assistant for the Chirf Counsel's i

6 c:: ce is Miss, Karen Randa_,_,, w.ne s a_,se ene c:- :ycse pecp;,e l

l 7

who resigned from a law firm to take this post, the one with t

3 which I was formerly associated.

Miss Randall has been a

_aga. assistant, in managing 3_1:rgation in tha.. aw :1r2 cr 9

10 a considerable period of time and she will be of immense l

11 assistance in the administrative detail that's going ic be 12 necessary to frame the hearings and the evidence that this 13 Cocmission is going to have to hear.

Thank ycu, Dr. Kemeny.

4 14 CHAIRMAN KIMINY:

Thank you.

Barbara, do you have 15 any introductions yet?

Or, you do not yet have any appointments 16 There's one person I don't see in the reca, is Ruth 17 here?

She's here.

I would like to mention that I'm going 18 to have Ruth La Scabard, my longtime assistant a: Dartmouth 19 College, relieved of part of her responsibilities for Dart-20 mouth College so that she may serve at the Hancver end, as 21 coordinator and contact point between the work cf the Cccmis-22 sion and what I do as Chairman when I'm not in Slashing:cn, 23 which I suspect I'll be scre often than I'll be in Hanover.

24 Su this is extremely importanr.

I'm trying c separate cu 25 ctally =y responsibilities as president of -he ecliege frca I

f I

l I

9

./

l scb my responsibilities as Chairman, and therefore the availability 1

of Ruth as coordinator at the Hanover end, and consul:an to 3

3 se in this capacity, will be extremely important.

I'm scrry she is not here to be introduced.

I assume she's holding dcwn 4

the fort for all of us while we're cut of the office.

That 5

g concludes the introduction of the staff, and I have nc had a cnance to -ask the Comm. ss eners whien one 0:. t.nem wish :: =ake 3

remarks at this time.

But I thought before we take an inter-9 mission, each Commissioner should have a chance 0 make remarks 10 to whatever they wish to do, and perhaps we could have the sare 11 alphabetical roster.

Governor Sabbitt, do you wish to make any 1.,

remarks?

13 COMMISSIONER BA3BITT:

Mr. Chairman, I'll pass.

14 CHAIRMAN KIMENY:

You'll pass.

15 (All Ccmmissioners declined to comment.)

16 CHAIRMAN KIMENY:

May I, in that case, say it's 17 going to be an absolute pleasure working with you.

Let's see, 18 our schedule calls for declaring an intermission and we'll 19 move to Conference Room C, still in open session, and -- we're 20 not going to move, very good, we're going to stay here.

We 21 will have an intermission in>fver, is that correct?

Ycu see why 22 one needs staff early?

We will have an intermission and 23 we will continue here in open session until lunch time.

The 24 remaining item this acrning is a briefing en the pcw-25

'ars and responsibilities of the Presidential Cc= mission

,2 o 'd i 27 scb 1

and the Chief Counsel will brief us on that and we may er r.ay 2

no have some anncuncements cf briefings frem the c her two 3

senior staff members.

I told them I'd give them that option.

4 Yes, one thing I'm sure Chief Counsel will brief us en, tha 5

we have to sign certain key dccuments.

Perhaps we cculd dc 6

tha as part of yccr briefing; can we wai: till after the break ?

7 In that case, I declare a 15 minute intermission of the c

O worms sio n.

9 (Recess) 10 11 1.i e

13 14 15 16 3 0 IS 19 20 21

.1 25 O

2-1 a o.

?JA 1

CHAIRMAli KEMENY:

May I call the C0= mission back 2

to crder again?

3arbara, I mentioned :: Karen we have One 3

problem.

We certainly want 0 be as accc== eda:ing :: the 4

press in all our proceedings as pcssible.

I hope we can 5

find a set-up and in the process the Iommissioners can also 6

see wha: they're doing.

And it's

-- I knew tha: the staff I

on-almost-no notice at all did a

miraculous iob ar-3 ranging this meeting, so I do no: sean :: be critical, but 9

it's just very hard to see here.

If you see us fumbling 10 with papers, it's because we cannot see a thing.

11 The next item on our agenda is briefing by Chief 12 Counsel.

I basically said to him, I have kncwn there have 13 been independen: Presidential cc= missions before, but they 14 are not a very ccamon occurrence.

What are they?

What are 15 their powers, responsibilities, li=ications?

And Mr.

16 Natalie, our Chief Counsel.

l 1~'

MR. NATALIE:

Thank you, Chairman Kemeny.

I : rill 18 attemp

keep the briefing short, and run over the various 19 laws that govern the Commission, and what its duties and 20 responsibilities are. And if there are any of the matters 11

~

that I discuss tha: the C0= mission desires further explana-

_on or, I think it would be preferable to have you ask me, a3 rather than have me give a law schcol lecture abcut all

~

these laws.

I would hate :: think that it would take me

.'5 icnger to explain a Presidential cc= mission chan it's going

30 1

to take Commissioner Taylor to explain a nuclear reactor to 2

us temorrow.

Although i: =ay be a commentary on governmen 3

in the late 20th Century that I'm nc: sure who has the scre 4

complex staff between the two of us.

5 The basic document that Dr. Kemeny has already 6

referred you to, which is in the actebecks before you, is the 7

Commission's charter.

And he has read to you-frem the tasks 3

that are assigned to the Commission.

I believe the charter 9

is, to a large extent, self-explanatory.

There are a couple 10 of things, though, that may require further elaboration.

11 In Section 5 of the charter, which describes the 12 support services that are going :: enable the Cc= mission to 13 perfor= its work, you'll see a reference to the availability 14 of supper frem other government agencies.

The mechanism 15 that has been adopted to implement this provision has now 16 been finalized.

A total funding ccmmitment of $1. 3 million 1I to fund the Commission's operations has new heen arranged.

18 These funds are being provided partially by the Department of 19 Energy, and partially by the Department of HE*d.

Righ: now, 20 something slightly over $1 million -- $1.015 million, I be-21 lieve the figure is -- has already been transferred in:0 accounts at the Department of Treasury.

I think that was 33 effective las

~4ednesday.

Those acccunts will be administered for us by GSA, and the C0rm# ssion, as an independen; bcdy, 25 wil_, issue instructions to a-A :o pay 1:s 5:...s.

c un _.s

4 41 1

mechanism was established in order -- because of the emergency 2

nature of this Commission and the necessity to transfer funds 3

it as rapi,dly as pcssible, while a: the same time pre-4 serving the Ccmmission's independence.

The reason this mech--

3 anism was adopted, that is, the transfer of these funds from 6

the Treasury Department to our account, is to completely iso-I late the Ccmmission from the Department of Energy and the 3

Department of EI*d. No: tha there's anything necessarily wrcng 9

with those entities, but the need for a wall between this t

10 Comma.ssion and the ultimate runding sources, :: preserve the 11 Ccamission's independence, to preserve the Cc= mission's free-i.,

dem in selecting staff, :

preserve the Cc= mission's freedom 13 to pursue

s investigation, wherever that investigarica may 14 lead, is indispensable.

And that was a judgment that was 15 reached, and I'm afraid I didn't consul Dr. Kemeny about the 16 details of it, I took that responsibility on myself, but I 17 fel that was a mechanism that had to be established from the IS outset or the Commission's operations from day one -- might 19 be under a cloud -- and I think we have that new all resolvec.

20 Section 6 of the charter states that the Federal 21 Adviscry Cc=mittee Act governs the operation of this Ccmmi:-

._w.

tee.

We have copies of that Act available to you, and we --

23 They're not in your becks, but we can ge: then :: you.

Mes:

24 of them are not particularly significan for the purposes 25 that we're addressing here', bu: there is one section of tha:

u

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v.u..a_. t s : e c. _:. n _,,3 n.: - h e

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committee Act, and that provides certain rules g:verning the 4

me,_._n s

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en a

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I open tc the public, subject to certain defined exceptions.

3 These exceptions are the sa=e exceptions that are contained 0

in the law that's called the Government in the Sunshine Act, 10 that I'm sure many of you are f amiliar with.

The Severnment 11 4.,. _ u.e s un s n _:..e.3.c.

4. s e _, _, _ s..c _,,, _, _4,, x _,,_ _.,. _ u. _ a-C-.

.#a-12 sion, because in its terms it applies only to agencies er 13 bodies a majority of whose members are appointed by the Pres-14 ident with the advice and consent of the Senate.

And obvicus r 15 ly, none of the members of this body fall into that descrip-16

_,_ n.

1.

. the ecvernmen: in :ne un-newever, one portion c:

s IS shine Act has been adopted, and that is the portica that pre-19 vides for the cicsing of meetings in certain circumstances.

40

~

One of those exceptions will ccme into play :cday, as Dr.

21 Kemeny has already mentioned.

The Commission this afterncon is going to ge into closed sess;.en :cr :ne purpcse c:. dis-

.,3 cussing personal qualifications of prospective empicyees or n....s u_, _. s n_.s

_.c

_.he C o m : a a _: n n.

o a C _s.,.a _: a

_a _a w,_s s :_ n. n

.. u..

_ w 25

,. n..:e g g.:.._s _,. a e, g_- s._: e. n.g, 3. g _' _ _ _ _ -. _ o.. g

.s..s.

_ u. a.

-u s_:

__..a_

n..: _'.g

5 33 I

varicus pecple who ycu will wan

be considering, sc=e of 2

~whom we knew who they are and some we don't even knew because 3

the Commissioners haven't yet spcken n it, would, in my 4

judgment, and I have so certified to the Administra:Or of '

3 General Services, public discussion of these matters would 6

constitute an unwarranted invasion of the perscnal privacy of the people who will be discussed.

That is a statur:ry ground 3

for closing the meeting.

I made that certification.

The 9

Administra:Or -- the Acting Administra:Or of G3A -- has issued 10 authority to Chairman Kemeny to close the meeting when we 11 reach that subject.

There are various c her -- Incidentally, I probably 13 should add one c her thing.

Under the Government in the Sun-14 shine Act, which provides for c1: sed meetings, the closed 15

=eeting itsel: must have a transcrio: and a stenoErac. hic 16 record made of it.

You may have been reading the transcripts 17 of the Nuclear ?.egulatory Commission in the public press re-IS cently; that's how that came about.

That subsection of the 19 Government in the Sunshine Act has not, hcwever, been incorp-

'O orated into the Federal Advisory Cc=mittee Act, so we are no

.1 required Oc do that.

We are required, however, :: keso. de-

~

tailed ninutes of the subject matters discussed at the closed

3 session, without divulging the personal informatica that's t

involved.

And the Cet=ission, a: leas once a year, and since

.,5 our Commission will be over by the enc of the year, will i

l I

i 3

S i

• g i

1 release those minutes.

2

.g.e-.

a. ya ou.

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32 4

not sure whether we're far enough advanced in our werk :: have 5

17.y c.c. yea cnae t...o

,f_ay a _,

..u. _: a.. a _, e c...n...

.-...a....

6 ly knew some of them we aren't.

But as an example, Ccmmissicn ;

I deliberations on the question of whether subpoenas should be 8

s ssue.

..ana.

nd_:v:_>ua_,,.-.

a.

n.n..,.c

_,_._:ona,

_..s...u.,.

an 9

like, are matters that may be closed.

The same is rue of 10 Commission deliberations and determinations, should we decide 11 that we wan to request the Department of Justice :

insti-1' ture legal action, either to enforce subpcenas that are cen-13 tumacicusly treated, or for any

her reasons.

14

-.unere,s also an exemp icn a~uther. : ng -he closing 15

. meetings tha: involve accus. ng individuals or ::rporations c:

16 cf criminal activity.

That does no: mean that when we have our public hearings, we need to immediately close a meeting IS if a witness says I think tha: XY Company did a criminal 10 act.

,dhat it does mean. s 1: the Commission is ce3 1s.erating

.,o whether to make an accusation that wculd be a criminal accusa -

.,3

-

• o n =.~ _= _' n s. c a."~. * = s, ~..*. a.

• a~~. o.' * *. e ~ e =_ ~_ _.*..~

~ay '. e f

closed.

23

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03 1

The Administrator of General Services allowed waived.

2 that recuirement for us. Since the Commission didn't exist 3

15 days ago, it was impossible to comply with that recuire-4 ment.

But we will, obviously, do that in the future.

The 5

Commission, in addition Oc that, and this will be one of Miss 6

Jorgenson's responsibilities, is instructed in the Federal 7

Advisory Committee Act to take appropriate action Oc ensure 3

that all interested persons are afforded timely notice of 9

Commission meetings, when they're scheduled and wha: the 10 basic agenda of those =eetings will be.

That's some hing 11 more than a Federal Register publication, because the Federal 12 Register is probably not read with grea frecuency by anyone 13 in this room, other than the lawyers here, who may read it 14

-: rom day to day.

15 The Commission is also obliged by the Federal Ad-16 visory Committee Act, and based on what we hearp from Dr.

I

Kemeny this morning, it's obvious would do this even if 18 it were not so obliged, it is obliged to permi: interested 19 persons to attend, appear before, or file statements with it, 20 on the subject matter of our investigation.

Some or. :.na

.,3

~

will occur tomorrow, and, the way the agenda looks, probably carry over on Oc Friday as well, as I understand it.

The

.'3

~

Cc==ission does have the authority to establish appropriate 34

~

rules and regulations to make that presentation orderly.

"de 25 wouldn't want to have a situation, for example, where the I

g

., C 1

00mmission just sa in this recm for the next six men:hs.

Sur o

within the rule of reascn, that cpperrunity mus: be, and I

.<new Dr. Kemeny intends to a::ord. : :

anycne wnc.nes an 4 n a.ee s. 4 n he pwe.ca. ape-n s c.2

..w. _: s..- ~., 4 -oo n.w 6..

r e

m 5

a33.sr.4

. a..n..a. e. : a., s

..w.a.,.a.

=,x.m...,s o

.w...e 6

omm:ssion are su 9ect c coss se insc.ection b aco, caricas filed under the Freedom of Information Act.

Tha: Ac centains 3

exemptions allowing the maintenance of that informatica in 9

confidence, certain types of that information in confidence.

10 Those exceptions are analogous to the Ones that I discussed 11 before with respect to closing of public meetings, and there 11 are scue additional ones, such as sensitive, commercial er 13 proprietary informatica, and the like.

I don': think, since 14 at this time we don't have any papers, I think it'd probably 15 be a waste of evertone,s : me :or me to exp.,aln the -reegom 16 of Information Act any further than that, unless if semeene 1~

wants to knew about it.

18 Finally, I guess,with respect to the Federal Advisory 19 Conmission.c app.ication to

.g:s aur.gority, to :.:s commis-n 20 sien, the mest important element is wha: the Commission's 21 i

1 duties and responsibilities are.

The C m=ission's duties and j

respons:stait es, as :.e name or the a.ct imo.. es, are a vised.y

.)..3 caly.

I:s job, as Dr. Kemeny has stated, is to scr Ou

._,4 the varicus factual issues contained in the charter and ::

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this case the President of the United States, as is necessar-ily the case,.since he is the individual who's respcnsible 6

to the public at large and was charged with weighing your I

recc=mendations in light of his overall responsibilities.

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-e 10 interest laws that are applicable, found in the United States 11 Crim nal Code.

2 'a Just locating em :cr you; ;r not sug-n to gesting we're engaged in'any criminal activity here.

Chairman 13 Kemeny and the staff, since they will be employed by the 1

camission n excess c:.0 avs, w _,_, be requiret, to :lle c

1-publicly a detailed form stating our vast investments, and 16 the like, so that the o.ublic can be sure that we're not doin:

anything awry.

The balance of the Cc= mission, since it ap-18 pears now, at least, tha: the other members of the Coccissier 19 will not actually spend 60 days working, are allcwed -- stil' 40 mus

1_,e a con:..::ct or interest form, but ::

s a very ab-

.1 breviated one, and it is confidential only.

Should the Cc=-

4.,

miss;0n hearings or meetings reach a pein where it becomes a3

~

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ge those forms to you while you're -- the confidential.cnes, 2

the small ones -- while you're here in this session.

Sixty 3

days is quite a long time, it's 12 sclid weeks, and it's 4

probably not --

.3 CHAIRMAN KEMENY:

Yes.

That seems most unlikely, 6

it seems to me, since we only have a 150 days to file our I

recommendations.

Since I have pledged tha: I'm available for 3

b..a'"

~w#~e, w3'i-ex,ec.

o =x-==--

..". a-

~

d 20-d=y

'#~#.,

-e 9

b ut I think it 's mes unlikely -- I have nc made any deter-t 10 mination of how often the Com=ission meets, but it seems mos 11 unlikely that 50 days, including weekends, that we'd be meer-12 ing every third day, I think that's that seems unlikely 13 to me, 14 MR. Na..An.--as:

u nar, in a nutshela,, are the various 15 Acts that govern the Comm#ssion.

In addition, we're governed 16 by Civil Service regulations and GSA regula:icas with respec; 1.,

to providing reimbursement and compensation to the Commis-IS sioners for the days they serve and the like.

I don't think 10 it's carticularl'/ fruitful to exc. lain all these in dea.th.

'O The staff, Miss Randall and Mr. Hollis, will make sure that

1 you get those forms before you leave, and they're obviously s e 3 :.-exp;anatory.

have a fee.'.ng :na:

ve given a very

.,3 abbreviated discussion, Mr. Chairman, but I

e..qA. 2 v 4N kev.. 7. v. -

- - c uld-

--.ks.o

-.2--

=

2 - - -

l

~

questien, and then encourage other Cen=issioners to ask as

39 1

many questions As you wish.

Ren Natalie did, I think, just 2

the righ: thing, focused the things he felt we absolutely had 3

to kncu,.and then give as much detail as we wish beyond that.

4 a nave one question 7 w;sn you wou..d speak c, and this is 3

the degree of independence of an independent Presidential 6

commission.

Clearly, we are established under Ixecutive Order I

by the President, and we repor: to the President.

'de made S

clear that cur reccc=endations will be public.

Incidentally, 9

that reminds me:

I'm requesting staff to ask the Presiden:

10 if we will have permission to take the remarks he made this 11 morning, which I thought were =cs: =cving, and very strong on 12 hcw seriously he will take the recommendaricas.

I won't at-13 te=pt to quote it, because I don't want :: =isqucre the Pres-14 ident of the United States.

I'd like permission frem the 15 President to include those in :ne minutes or our meeting as 16 part of our permanent obj ectivei But-may I ask you, ?Jon, once 1

the President appoints us, and clearly we have to operate IS frcs that charter, how independent are we?

19 MR. NATALII:

Dr. Kemeny, with your first ccament, i

ao it's my understanding that to be on the safe side, we regarded

.n the meeting with the President this morning as a part of our meeting, and the remarks that were made there, as I under-I o3 stand it, will be incorporated in the transcrip of this ses-24 sion.

05 CHAIRMAN KIMINY:

Ch.

Thank you.

I l

_$ e_

20 1

MR. NATALIE:

The Commission is thcroughly inde-2 pendent, as long as it stays within the framework of the 3

charter.

That's the entire purpose cf Presidential adviscrJ 4

commissions, and that's the reason that we spen: a gced deal 5

of time last week establishing a structure that removes --

6 establishes our independence not merely frcm the departments I

that are funding the Commission, but also from the Presiden 3

cf the United States and the White Ecuse staff themselves.

9 That's not only the function of a Presidential advisory cc= mis-10 sion,.but as I think the President made plain in his remarks 11 this morning, and certainly all the meetings that we've had ac 1*

the ih: e nouse leading up to this date, that is their irm 13 intent, too.

This Commission is totally independent of the 14 President, even though it bears the President's -- it's called 15 the President's committee.

It's called the President's ccm-16 mittee because six months from new it's going to hand the 1~

\\

President a bock that is going to repre;ent its best judgment 13 Su from this date to that, it's the Kemeny Commission, I 19 guess is -- and it's completely independent.

"O CHAIRMAN KEMENY:

Thank you.

Other Commissioners?

Yes, Dr. Marks.

4_4 COMMISSIONER MARKS:

Oces the Commissicn have the 23 authority 00 establish a task force adviscry Oc the Commission

.,4

~

cn any aspects of our delibera:icns?

25 MR. NATALIE:

The Commission has authority 70 1

9*

al I

has een given waivers :or tne purpcse or a__,cwing i: to nire s

2 any staff it wants, for allowing i to appoint any censultants 3

~.".= ~.

_4. w a.~. ~. s,.= ~ ~..h e ~ u.~~, o s a_

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aren't any strictures with respect to hcw they're structured.

S They can be structured wherever the Commission feels is the best way to acccmplish the end.

I should add one thing whic'.- :

3 forgot because the light's so bad up here.

The Com=ission at 9

the present time does not have subpoena pcwer.

Legislation 10 will be introduced that will afford the Commission subpcena 11 power, and it will allow the Commission, should the need 12 arise, to request the Department of Justice to issue i$munity 13 to witnesses who might otherwise be obliged to take the Fiftr 14 Amendment to avoid answering questions before us.

And we'll 15 investigatory cc=-

nave various trad : enal auther10:es ina:

16

=issions normally do.

We hope to have that legislation in 17

.i place by our next meeting so we can ge: to work, and star:

18 getting at the facts.

Is that responsive to your question?

19 COMMISSIONER MARKS:

Yes, sir.

20 CHAIRMJ.N KEMENY:

Professor Taylor?

21 COMMISSIONER TAYLOR:

Do you have any idea when the.:

a.,

legislation may be in force?

43 MR. NATALIE:

I have ac firn knowledge of it.

.,4 l

understand frc= the people at the White Ecuse cha: they an-t 25 i

ticipate it will c.robablv. take rwe weeks, but I don't think i

l

e.

1 anyone really kncws that.

2 CHAIRMAN KEF.ENY:

Yes, may I say on tha ?

And as I 3

a4d o' n. S..=.

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portant that we have that power before the nex: neering of 6

the Commission.

As we start taking restimony, I feel we have to have that pcwer.

3 MR. NA'"ALIE :

I mis-h: sa hat we have tried := keec.

9 that le g'. slat on as clean as poss'...cte.

ac=e

.mes, Or exampie, 10 these ccmsissions are staturcrily exempted frca che conflic:

11 c: :.nterest aaws; sometimes exceptions to the -- no: the 1.,

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1. .7

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.e 1,.

mit us := have core frequent cacsed nee.ngs, are anc_u,ec in 15 that legislation.

A judgment was made that we wanted :=

16 operate openly anyhow, and there was ne point in clu :ering 1..

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19 concern,.regitimate cause for concern, and wcua.j sta_

ne

.,0 legislation.

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43 1

on our authority to call on other executive agencies for o

-- and assistance?

star:

3 MR. NATALIE:

Yes, I will, because the charter is somewhat ambiguous in that respect.

In 5(b) it refers to 5

Departments c:- -nergy and nealth, -ducation anc neArare 6

providing facilities, support, funds, services, including I

staff, as may be necessary.

The next paragraph says the 3

Commission may request any executive agency :c provide advice 9

assistance, and so on; does not mention starr.

.na: does no:

10 mean that the Commission is not free to ask :cr star:-- :rca 11 any executive agency in the government.

It's the difference la between a manda: cry directive, which has been issued to DOE 13 and HEW, and our freedom, and conferring on us the opportunity 14 and the right to ask other agencies for whatever help in the 15 way of personnel, or facilities, er whatever we need, frca 16 them.

We have been assured, and I think Dr. Kemeny was as-17 sured frca some of the people that he's alre?.dy met, he's IS certainly been assured by the White House, that cur recues 19 will, to put it mildly, be very seriously hencred by any agency 20 that we desire to request.

So we --

c the extent the Ccm-

.1

~

mission believes it wants personnel or particular services

.w,

~~

frca any agency in the government, in the Executive 3 ranch of the government, the intent of this charter, and the inten:

I

.)

~

Of the President's Executive Order was :

give us a righ: Oc

~

get that.

Is that what you asked, Harry?

au COMMISSIONER MC.:HERSON:

Yes, thank you.

1 3

MR. NATALIE:

Excuse me.

Cc==issioner Mc.:hersen.

3 I've got cid habits to break here.

s 4

CHAIRMAN KEMENY:

Professor Taylor?

5 COMMISSIONER TAYLOR:

I wan: to be quite clear about 6

one aspect of the Federal Advisory Committee Act.

Do I understand correctly tha: the minutes of clcsed meetings have 3

to be made public, whatever their content, once a year?

9 MR. NATALIE:

That's correct.

Su: the minutes do 10 not have tc, for examp.,e, L., In :n s a::ernoon :: we,re dis-11 cussing the persona _, reputa:Lons or Indiv cua; scientists, 12 we don't have to write that down in the minutes.

13 COMMISSIONER TAYLOR:

I see.

14 MR. NATALIE:

The minutes, though, have to reflect 15 the types of things that we discussed.

16 CEAIRMAN KEMENY:

And presumably, in that case, 17 could the minute be simply tha: the Commission spent three AS nours discussing :.s.e quar.t:: car ens c:- a numeer c:- pcten a_,

s 19 scientists?

20 MR. NATALIE:

If that's what you did, yes.

1 Cu.a._?1. ".kN X=_"..cN'..

• " ~.'. e s s e ~.

• * ~ _ " ~ ~. ^. *.

. _,3 e

t' COMMISSIONER FIGFORD:

Mr. Natalie, are there any 23 constraints upon the Commissioners with regard Oc ex parte 24 cc=munications?

25 MR. NATALII:

I'm not sure that I'm no: sure l

_a 45

w.. s is going c.c respcasive :c your cuestion,. cut you raiso s

3 anc.he" a..=~ -.ha.

k..ad..'e -5c u -w..

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v" - - __# -

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aa m.

e.

3 who will serve for less than 50 days are under no constraints at all with respect Oc any involvement they may have thrcugh 4

5 their private careers with Lepartment of Energy or HEW, the g

funding sources.

I don't knew if I've alerted Dr. Kemeny to this, out a::er the sixtie:h day c:_..nas serv ce, ne w

_,A no:

3 be able to go over to EE*4 and ask for money for Dartmouth; 9

he's going to have to send somecne else to go over there to d^

-ha--

10 11 CEAIRMAN KEMENY:

Believe me, I'm not going :: do 12 that in the firs 50 days,'either.

13 MR. NATALIE:

So that is a statutory prohibirien.

14 Maybe that wasn't what ycu were asking, though.

15 COMMISSIONER PIGFORD:

Well, that certainly seems 16 to be relevant.

Another possibility:

suppose One of us, 17 through his professional work, is offered information which IS seems relevant to a substantive issue before this Commission.

19 What do we do about that?

20 MR. MATALIE:

Oh, I see. No, that is no:

This 21 Cc= mission is not an adjudicatory bcdy, sc you're act subject 22 to the prchibitions, for example, that I wculd ':e if I wen:

23 Oc see Judge McGcwan ar.d said, Judge, le: me cell you really 24 what happened in this case.

Ina: information can be received

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no inhibition on anyone.

And I suspect you will be inundated 3

b.y e n o, _,,_ s e.n.g ; n 3 yo u.;.,..:o.., :.. :..

.u.n.,:

.u...

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5 COMM S-AON-R r-u 2 0.sD :

so maybe somerine you cou, c-c s

perhaps give us some advice as to how to crea such in#orma-tion, as opposed to what the law requires.

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=aybe we should, the whole Coc=ission should discuss, because 10 there are obviously judgmental factors that are curside my 11 x.a,_:w--g, c ge.

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bod es runc:1on be: ore, and

=ay nave some suggestions.

13 CHAIRMAN KIMINY:

Yes.

I hope to discuss with the 14 Co-m#ss# n 2'se a

.k.a.

=, y.. p ~. - = =_

--.=_ o u.

3 =..~. e. = _ 2. =.. c =_.

m 15 We clearly want to be -- most of our meetings, with the very 16 few exceptions mentioned by counsel will be open, and those 1'

a.-= ve~/ '#--4.=.d ex-=_p #ons.

1. , so

.ee'i'

-=

.=#...'-/ '. e IS operating where everybody can watch what we do.

I do wan: ::

19 discuss at some point with the Con =. ssion :ne ques:1on or wno 20 speaks :.or the Commission during the r.act-: nding period, et al

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sissioners what y view on the matter is, and clearly you may 45 y: g..

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2 dations, that only the Chairman shoulc speak for the Cctris-3 and

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4 very hard to do it caly in the presence of the public Informa-5 tien Director.

I will cuite clearly no: discuss any of the 6

substance of what we're talking about, because I think it wou_,d s.e =cs; inappropriate for us to specu_are on during this e

3 period.

I wan Oc make clear, en the c:her hand, that after 9

Commission work is over, I would love to see an absolutely 10 unanimous conclusion by this Commission.

If that does not 11

happen, or some Commissioner s rongly dissents frca some of 1.,

the recommendations, :nere's no way one can : crc d socecne i

13 in conscience to speak cut after the findings, frc= expressing 14 disagreements with it.

Because I've tried c make the dis-15 tinction while we're in the fact-finding and recommendation 16

crmulating stage, versus the :act that cur own consciences

(

II have to guide us after all of this is over.

18 Other questions to legal counsel?

If not, let me

• 9 2

ask the other senior staff members whether they have recarks 20 l

they wish Oc make.

3ruce Lundin, you've had all since yester 3,

day--a little longer than that, since I interviewed you 'as:

week, but you case en board yesterday.

~4culd you like to =a}:e 1

43

~

sc=e remarks?

l a4 l

y.R. LUNDIN:

Thank ycu, Chair:an Kemeny.

I've beer

.,3 cn board just a shcr while, sc my remarks would be

~

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pr'v ege :: serve as ycur staff director.

_ assure you I'm l

9

_.~. d.'u_' o.' '..he o"..=nc=. =..d s#

n_###^=..ce c.'.".e

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y

_s 10 you've given me,not only := the Prssident, but indeed to our 11

_4 n s._ n._.gy

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or personal note -- but

'm eager to ge; started, and _

cok 13 forward to close working relationships, no: only with Mr.

1*.

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Jor-a_..sen, 5u'...cs ya.-

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~ #_..". ]cu-a 3

15 Chairman, with our Chairman, Dr. Kemeny.

That's abcut all 16

- w:.sh to say at ta..is t me, :nanks.

A 1.

CHAIRMAN KEMINY:

Thank you.

Barbar!. Jorgensen,

'S

^

what have you got to tell us?

19 MS. JORGENSON:

Nc: a great deal.

Su I would jus--

20 like to say I was delighted to hear the President say this 21 o.._#.1 -

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21 as 1

informed, and I want you :: knew that everyone on my staff 2

will always be accessible to all of you.

Also, I'd like ::

3 ask these people in the audience who wan: to be on our maili:;g 4

lis to please sign up.

I'll leave a le in the back of 5

the room, and as you leave, if you'd put your names and ad-6 dresses en it, I'll make sure you ge no ices of every single meeting directly : rem my c:::.ce.

3 CEAIRMAN KEMENY:

Thank you.

Tow, let's see.

Abcut 9

cur agenda.

We're going to adjourn for lunch in a accent, 10 and then go into executive session :or :nis a: ernoon :cr the 11 purposes stated by legal counsel.

Do we want :0 make an 12 announcement of Our tentative agenda for the res of the meet-13 ing, for Thursday and Friday?

I think, Barbara, that would 14 be very useful.

While Barbara's ge ing her notes out, wha:

15 we hope to have tc=orrow, the ma'or part of temorrew and par 16 i

or r day morning, is to.near testimony from -- not really l

testimony, but, at the initial stage, advice and comments 18 frca a group with varied backgrounds as to how they would 19 think the Commission ought to approach its task. And we intend

'o to give all Commissioners a chance, they've all been cid

.,1 just to ask them cuestions in the process.

Barbara will reac

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you the tentative agenda.

The crder of the individuals is

3 purely accidental, in that we had -- we had an extremely shcr

.,4 time.

We're delighted abou: the number of people who have

.,5 accepted cur invitation.

And we simply had :0 fill cut the

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4S. JORGENSON:

I'll leave copies of this also on 4

the table in the back, se each of you can pick this up.

I'll 5

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norning, starting at 9:30.

We'll open with a statement by I

William Wilcox, who's with the Federal Disaster Assistance S

Program at.?UD.

That'll be followed by Rober Pcilard or Dr.

9 Dan ?crd from the Union of Concerned Scientists.

At 10:30 10 we expect to hear frca Doug Ccstle, from the Invironmental 11 Protectica Agency; he'll bring two of his aides with him as 12 well.

At 11:30 we'll hear from Chairman Hendire of the-NRC.

13

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We expect Oc adjourn for lunch around 12:00, and take an hour

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14 and a.nal: :or lunch, and recenvene a 1: 40 w1:n na,e 15 Champion and Rick Cotton, frc= HIW.

A: 2:30 ene of our Com-16 niss oners, Commissioner Taylor, will give us a.secture en 1.

how a nuclear reactor actually works.

And the whcie purpose c 18 this, at our Chairman,s direction, is so each one c:. us w -,

19 be able to understand.

It will be on a layman's level, a0 CHAIRMAN KIMENY:

Yes. May I nake it very clear 21

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quest ons.

r: day, the only person we. nave on the agenda so 10 day

ar is ocnn Deutsch, :rca the Department c:- -nergy.

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16 we mi-h: be able to pin down, I hope at least our nex: two 3

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meetings, and announce them no later than Friday.

Perhaps 18 we'll know it by : morrow.

I wanted to mention the case of 19 was asked by s,ecretary Ca,..:anc to say that ne nad n n; a

• 0 hoped to be here personally, but it's physically impossible 21 for him to dc that this Thursday.

~ hat's why he asked the 1

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Friday's agenda.

You said there's only one person so far.

2 Dces that mean tha: there will be

her : ecole added?

3 CEAIRMAN KEMENY:

Nc.

Nc: this week.

Sarbara?

4 MS. JORGENSON:

It was ny understanding tha: There

~

5 were a couple other people who wanted to make statements to the 6

Commission, but we weren't sure whether they themselves would' 7

have time to do it at this meeting, or whether they would have 3

to be scheduled at another meeting in the future.

9 CHAIR.M.AN KEMENY:

Thank you.

Any other questions?

10 COMMISSIONER EAGGERTY:

Yes, again en Friday.

It 11 was =y understanding you were going :: try Oc quit by noen or.

12 Friday.

13 CC.A7R.ua N Krv.._?.NV. -

V. e s.

14 MS. JORGENSON:

Right.

15 COMMISSIONER EAGGERTY:

Obviously, if -- And that 16 also, we were going to try to talk ac.ou: ruture programs.

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With that schedule, we surely aren't going to have any time o

IS

cr more presentations.

19 CHAIRMAN KEMENY:

Well, that was my feeling, tha 20

. r. lt only one presentation.r:. day morning, so that we w,1 A

e

.,3 have ample time to talk about where the Cc==ission shculd 50 from here.

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.,5 COMMISSIONER PEtERSON:

When are we, as members of

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the Cc= mission, going to be able c suggest individuals whc=

2 we should bring in here to present sc=e resti=cny?

3 CEAIRMAN KIMINY:

Yes.

Is that a legal activity i.-

4 executive session, counsel, as,_cag as we pus _1c;y announce

-)

.: a::erwcrds?

6 MR. NATALIE:

Yeah, I think, because I'm sure 7

there's going to be discussion about why we think these people 5

are appropriate, so I think that's within the authcrity we 9

already have to close the session.

Or we can discuss it in 10 public if you like.

11 CEAIRMAN KEMENY:

I'm really hoping for an extended 12 time.

I hope to adjourn promptly for lunch, tha we have 13 plenty of time this afterncen, so we can discuss cuestions 14 like this, and then be bound, of course,

as decisions are 15

=ade.

But these people will testify very publicly, so clear-16 ly all of those decisions will become public information.

1.

But insofar as we are taAking about the appropr. a eness or.

13 people, we could do that in executive session.

19 COMMISSIONER PETERSON:

Mr. Chairman, I wasn't ccm-ao

~

mentin en the appropriateness of those on the list.

It's a

.,2 the future agenda --

CEA!RMAN KEMENY:

No, that's what I'm talking abcu?.

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l. /

-33 I hope that we will have a chance to discuss tha: this after-

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1 MS. JORGENSON:

May I ask you one nore housekeepin_

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3 C:-3.IRMAN KEMENY:

As scon as Dr. Marks asks his 4

question.

5 MS. JORGENSON:

Oh, I'm sorry.

6 COMMISSIONER MARKS:

Have we requested submission of written testimony from any c.g : nose wnc w;e 3-ge coming 3

be cre us?

9 MS. JORGENSON:

Tomorrcw?

10 COMMISSIONER MARKS:

Yes.

11 OHAIRMAN KEMENY:

Let's see.

Several of them have 1'

indicated that they are planning to bring a wri :en statement.

13

-t asked them even in those cases :0 give us a st==ary pussic.

14 ly.

Of course,

we will have complete transcript of every-15 thing they say, and cbviously all such transcripts will be 16 available to Ccamissioners.

1.

COMMISSIONER MARKS:

Yeah, that's the other thing.

18 What do you think the ti=e schedule is on how soon after a 19 meeting the transcripts of the sessions will become available?

20 MS. RANDALL:

I've been told that it will take

-31 approximately two Oc three weeks for transcription of this first three-da session.

I hope 0 expedite the process a 23

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CEAIRMAN KEMEN'?:

I hope very much that in the

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all, practically, but we can find a scre expediticus p:ccess-2 for the future.

3 COMMISSIONIR MC3 RIDE:

These -- If I may, these 4

=inutes of the meetings will be fcrwarded as a matter of 5

course to each =esber of the Commission.

Is that correct?

6 CEAIRMAN KIMINY:

Absolutely, yes.

And, of course, I

any. additional m erials --

I mean, -he r aff works for the 3

Cc= mission.

Therefore, any other materials -- briefing, back -

9 ground or whatno: -- that the Commission recuests as a Com-10 mission obviously will be sent := the Commission.

I just 11 tried Oc =ake ne prejudg=ents as to what kind of materials la you want to have or in what form you wish to have it.

And 13 that's certainly something on which we need advice frc= all 14 of you.

I mean, you have to make the decision.

Barbara, yet 15 have sece:hing else?

16 MS. JORGENSON:

The only thing I wanted := le 1~

those people in the audience knew is that we are just about IS to =ove into permanent offices.

And I'll actify you of where 19 these offices are and how you can get in cuch with us.

Bu; 20 that won't be till sometime next week.

~

21 CEAIRMAN KIMENY:

Very good. May I just close by

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saying that the handful of staff we have worked against al-

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=cs; incredible Odds, with no time at all, so I really think

.,4 it's ama:ing that we're as far as we are.

I declare the Oper, j

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session concluded.

tie'll'go :c lunch, and then immediately

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.c 2

1 into executive session.

And ::=crrow a: 9:30 in the scrning 2

we wi'.1 have the next open session of the Commission, in this 1

3 particular recm.

This session is adjcurned.

4 Cinereupon at 11: 40 A.M. the session was adjourned as des-5 cribed above.)

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a This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the in the matter of: PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ACCIDENT AT THREE MILE ISU.ND DOCKET NUMBER:

LOCATION:

WASHINGTON, D.C.

HEARING DATE:

APRIL 25, 1979 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Department or Commission.

7

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Reporter National Reporting Co., Inc.

2009 N. luth Street Arlington, VA 22201 e

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