Text

Transcript of 790425 Meeting of Presidents Commission on Accident at TMI in Washington,Dc.Pp 1-56
	ML19305A467
Person / Time
Site:	Crane
Issue date:	04/25/1979
From:	Babbitt B, Haggerty P, Kemeny J; PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ACCIDENT AT THREE MILE
To:	;
References
	NUDOCS 7907180085
	Download: ML19305A467 (58)
	v • d • e

{{#Wiki_filter:n o ' r** ,):-. t.'. t. Transcript of Proceedings PRESIDER 'S COMMISSION ON 2-2 ACCIDENT AT THREE MILE ISLAND HEARING AT '4ASHINGTO N, D. C. DATE APRIL 2 5, 19 7':! PAGES 1 through 56 i NATIONAL REPORTING CO., INC. 1015 LOCUST ST. - ST. LO UIS. MO. 63101 - (314) 421 2335 2009 N.14ta - ARLINGTON. VA. 22:01 - (703) 525 1885 1 l 6 7107/rd0 8

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T e e, v,- _c _ _ _D _.,I _e-_o 2 1-1 1 (10 :15 a.m. ) 2 CEAIRMAN KEMENY: Will the meeting please come tc 3 crder. This is the cpening meeting of the President's 4 Commission on the Accident at Three Mile Island and may the 5 record show that although we were appointed on shcre notice, 6 jus: two weeks ago, all eleven Commissioners are present. I We will begin with a swearing-in ceremony and are greatly 3 hencred that Judge Carl McGcwan of the U.S. Circuit Ccur cf 9 the United States Court of Appeals of the District of 10 Columbia Circuit is present with us Oc perform the swearing-11 in ceremony. Judge McGewan, you hencr us with your presence 12 and I guess I'm Oc be the first ene :: be swcrn in. 13 (Whereupon, Chairman Kemeny was sworn in by Judge 14 Carl McGcwan, followed by the other members of the CcamisssicrJ, 15 and the Staff.) 16 CHAIRMAN KEMEiY: Thank you very much, Judge. Will 3. the star:-- please take their p_, aces. IS Sefore my opening remarks as Chairman, it occurred 19 to se that it is not only tha: the public may not knew mes: 20 cf us ; until today, most of us have not ne: mes: cf the res: .3* or us, and wn _3e we were hencregsy-sy meeting w :.u. .y.e cres cern c: the United States this morning, we had very li :le opportuw 23 nity :c get acquainted and perhaps going arcund the table, and each Of saying two or three sentences abou: curse _ves 25 we u,se.-_3 - m., 33 ,X,.,.,.,. ,,y s ,sa_, _w, ,,, s e, ".c a, f.- l ~ l L 1 )

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=lphabetical 4 order going around in a semi-circle that way. So, if you 5 w _3 ."-'_'.w -..a. cas c& .5a.- = c. =_.- s.".. m c u- -.. 3~ ~. ar., w y = -v v_ f 6 that may be helpful Ic you. Let me start by introducing T myself,'I':vJchn Kemeny. I have a PhD in mathematics. -'ve 3 . 3u .w. -...a... _ - - s =..d " h #"_ o so-f ii'/ =... " c..". :. _#..c a.... _= nd w 3 f 0 Darracuth. I've had a fair amcun: to do with cc=puters 10 and.cr the.,ast nine years, .,ve been president c:- 11 n . a.-._- ^ u'*... c. - ' _ e =. "o va.-.c..aaw s. :..,. w 12 COMM SSIONER BA3BITT: Mr. Chairman, my name is 13 n-"c= .=abb_4 ../ ed" c.= _# c *.a_'

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v..= -. =. ' =- 3 14 Degree in physics but somewhere along the line, I degenerated 15 and went into politics and I'm new the governor of Ari ena. 16 COMMISSIONER EAGGERTY: Mr. Kemeny, I'm Pat 1 i 17 =._, g.n ,./. rr- ,.n-an,_--- ._c__ ,..3...e a.,.d,. n. :, .a...-,_-a_,- IS a couple c: years back, a was n a successien c:- c:: ces 19 at uexas Instruments. Mos-c:- my. prozess ona_- 20 career, I've been involved in electronics, especially, '1 semi-conductors, but electronics in general. 4., COMMISSIONER MARKS: I'm Paul Marks. I have an o.3 y . t.e' a. u.e a_n ,f. _- c- _ -f :.uv e. '.. a. A. ...n. w e g. a_ a_. . n.my

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1-3 1 Vice President cf Health Sciences a: Columbia University. 1 2 COMMISSIONER MARRETT: Dr. Kemeny, I'm Ccra S. I 3

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.v.v. a e gr a_ a_ _4 - 4 -.. ooc #^' ~3/. va- ="~.%.- a -.ha_ a ---3 4 Universi:ies of North Carcline and Western Michigan end I'm 3 currently a faculty member, in sociclogy and Afrc-American 4 studies, a: the University c:- wisconsin in Madison. ~ COMMISSICNER Mc3 RIDE: Chairman Kemeny> av name 3 is Llcyd McSride. I's, for the past thirty-nine years, mes: 9 cf my adult life, I've been a career unionist. A

present, 10 I as privileged to serve as the President cf the Interna-11 ricnal Union of United Steelworkers of America.

I've been A., in that capac :7 :cr :.ne pas: twc years. 13 COMMISSIONER McPHERSON: Dr. Kemeny, I'm Harry 14 McPherson. I'm a lawyer here in Washington. I was in 15 government for thirteen years, the last fo ur o f it as 16 Special Counsel to President Johnson and have been in private 3 4 practice since t.w.en. 18 COMMISSIONER PETERSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm Russell 19 ,e erson. _ have a Ph.D. n enemistry and -'ve spent twenty-r 2 a0 six years with the DuPon Company running research divi- .1 siens, designing and operating scme chemical plants. ~ was governor of Delaware fer fcur years and chairman of .3 ..w. a. :-as# den 'a-Ccu'..c_#_'.-. ..v # - ^ m a.... = ' Q u = ' '. / 'c. ". - - " = _ = _ ( years and head of a naricnal citizen's group, called "New Di-25 'w '.9 ". =_ a_ v a_ a_.k.s =., 7 "a.s "#-ar ..". a-4 m o r... ^. n. s, " ar.d. u,s t I

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3 s 9 years, at the University c# California a: Berkeley. 10 COMMISSIONER TAY10R: Mr. Chairman, my name is l 11 Ted Taylor. I have a Ph. in thecretical physics. I've 12 spen mes; cf my professional career en applications of 13 nuclear energy. I'm now a visiting professor a: Princeton 14 t r : ve. s : -y,. w.a 3.: m _:. e. v.- i 15 COMMISSIONER TRUNK: Mr. Chairman, my name is 16 Anne trunx. A,a a housew..re. A've been =arr. d twenty-e l 1"' four years and I have six children. I r 1 18 l CEAIRMAN KEMENY: Thank you, Mrs. Trunk. I'm 19 going : delay.ntroduca.ng :ne star:.. memcers sc :ar on , c ar,_ :.cr tye Commission,.cecause my, a::er my cpening 21 statement, I'm going c discuss what I have done se far .i., n.. s..m._a.: n.na,;.a.:on a d ..h.,. u.c e ~.%.e w -. 3 : a a _:.. ne u. a w v 5-**- -33 ..u.c s e,.,....a..v o

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) t 1-5 1 Three Mile Island was established by Executive Order 12130 2 exactly two weeks age cday. On the basis of that Executive 3 Crder, a charter has been issued for this.Cc==ission which 4 is aval_abr,e to a_3a Cc=m. ssioners. 5 t ..u._: nk _; _..c u_, s u we aey.op.__,_,_ .=,-.. 2.,.-. ~ 6 w,f - a. _= d _#..g .#~. c a. 4.a. c h a.. =.=..k. a.

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d e _= _' _#.. s- _#. "..' e e I functions of the Commission. Under Section 3 of the Charter 3 it says, "the purpose of the Cc= mission is Oc conduct a 9 cc=prehensive study and investiga:icn of the recent acciden: 10 involving the nuclear power facility on Three Mile Island 11 in Pennsylvania. The Cc= mission's study and investigation 12 shall include: 13 "(a) a rechnical assessment of the events and 14 their causes; this assessment shall include, but shall nc 15 be limited to, an evaluation of the actual and potential 16 impact of the events on the public health and safety and II on the health and safety of werkers; 18 "(b) an analysis of the role of the managing 19 a0 "(c) an assessment of the emergency preparedness .,1 and response of the Nuclear Regula: cry Cemmission and c her ~ .m Federal, state and local authcrinies; 43 "(d) an evaluatica of the Nuclear Regula : cry Cc= mis _ ~ 2k - e. _,. _, o n, n d,.,..:..... e... s _:... o. _ _ -.. s _. g, _.. s, e c.. _ _.., 2 me .'5 -.a.ca.d".-=. as a.s o, ' _# = ..b._' s." _= c _# _' _#. /, f

1-6 1 "(e) an assessmen: Of how the puclic's righ: c 2 information concerning the events a Three Mile Island was 3 served and of the steps which should be taken during similar 4 emergencies te previde the public with accurate, ccmprehen-5 sible and timely information; and 6 "(f) appropriate recc=mendaricas based upon the I C:mmission's findings.f' 3 I'm quite sure all Cc=missioners have thcugh; a 9 great deal about our charge, but I think I can safely say tha 10 I've. spent scre hours, day and night, worrying abou: this 11 charge than anycne else. l Therefore, I would like te give you my view of 13 what the ?residen: of the United States has, char;cd us ci-h. 9 ^ I seems te me the enarge very clearly falls in :0 twc parts. '5 ^ Part one can be oversimplified by saying: find out absolutely 16 everything there is to knew abou the acciden at Three Mile 1~ Island. Par two is c make reccc=endations be. sed en these 18 findings. I would like to take a f ew minutes *:0 discuse 19 each part of the two-part charge, because they're very 20 different. They're both very imper an and we must work 21 extremely hard at bc h halves cf our task. ~ Part one is very specifically spelled cut in .,3 ~ ? arts (a) through (e) of our charter. We have : find cu 24 precisely what happened at Three Mile Island.

ie have ::

find cut the rcles of the varicus participants, very

3 1-7 I specifically including the Nuclear ?.egula:Ory Cc= mission, 2 the interaction among Federal, state and local agencies, 3 the dangers, the possible dangers : health, and the 4 availability of infer =ation throughcut this period, accurate 3 information, as the President emphasiced this =crning, frc= 6 whatever source, available to the public. 7 In shcrt, as I said earlier, we are trying to 3 find cut absolutely everything we can about Three Mile Island. 9 une charge in

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e. , :.. s:s a huge number of items,,u: :.nis 10 investigation is like almost any investigation. There are 11 always things that turn up during i: that ncne Of us can fore-12 see at.the mcment and therefore, cresumably, any list ycu star 13 u d ". 4-e c.#."... be."au_'.y _#n b.a. you w__'_', . ". e ' _# -. w.#.i ' 4 -a _a o 14 grow as we learn =cre and acre abou: the Three Mile Island 15

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16 There is one thing I wanted : share with all l 17 Commissioners. .wo weeks ago.teday, u.nen a was standing in is the Oval Office, firs: time in my life I had the honor 19 seet the President of the United States. I'd already 20 been shewn the charge, I'd agreed Oc serve, and he gave me 21 c .as

nu.e instrue:: ens on n s wishes on this Cc==. ss cn.

1 .si Then he asked if I had any questions. The questica I asked .Y3 ..".e ". - a. s.# d. e... ..S. e U.. #. =.d S.=.. a. s a - ..b. a. .0w...-- d .34 "Mr.

resident, I have ne precenceived ideas, therefore 25 we.c_.),cW

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o. 1-3 1 assu=e that na matter where it leads, you will wan: c 2 knew the truth." And the Presiden responded by saying, 3 " Absolutely, I wculd nc: have i: any other way." I'm quoting 4 that frem me=ory, bu I think I'm cicsa encugh :: the sub-3 stance of it. And, I said, Mr. President, in that case, 6 I have no second question. I think it is imper an for I the entire C = mission to knew of that. 3 To carry cut par One of the charge, we nus find 3 all the facts relevant; perhaps in some cases, digging up 10 the facts may be an appropriate expression here. 'de will 11 have :: understand them, and we'll have to reach Commission 12 consensus on wha: those facts are and what they mean. I 13 will, as you see in these remarks, emphasize the importance 14 for working long enough to get Cc= mission consensus. And 15 then we have an additional task which is not explicitly 16 mentioned in our Executive Order, but it was mentioned by II the President of the United States this morning and I would 18 have mentioned it in any case. Mainly, that we have the respon-19 sibill y not Jus: to bring it to the point where we, as a 40 Cc= mission understand it, but to the point where the .1 American peepic can understand in clear and simple language the findings of Eis Ccamission I'm not putting -~ 33 cu .of beunds having technical appendices if these are necessary, bu: I think there has

be a centra 1 part of

.'5 cur reper that everycne can understand. )

?. 3 1 Mrs. Trunk, I had the great pleasure cf seeing you en a certain re,evision shcw one morning. . en cyed your 3 appearance and you made the remark there that ! think is 4 tremendcusly important. I-had already started thinking 5 about wha: would say on my first public appearance as 6 Chairman and I decided then tha: : wanted :c que:e one thing I you said. Amongst several interesting things you said, 3 one thing you said tha; par of your role en this Ccemission 9 would be tha: they will have :: explain it so tha I can 10 understand it. Mrs. Trunk, I'd like te join you in 11 that "they,".and there'll be a g eat many "::,eys," will have 0,o la explain it so that I can understand it, and sc that every 13 single member of this Commission can understand it, and tha 14 orten will not be easy. 15 The problem is that while the composition of this 16 Ccamission is such, that collectively as a Cc= mission, 17 we rec. resent an enormous amount of exc. ertise, we are ac: 18 here to divide the job tha: Professers Taylor and Pigford 19 will make the nuclear decision, Dr. Marks will make the i l biological decisions. h.e as a Ccmmission must reach consen- .,1 ~ sus and, while collectively we represent a great deal .M ~ of knowledge, individually, le: se speak for myself, I also .y ~ represent, a high degree of igncrance. There is a subject .,4 ~ cn which.. I can bring expertise, there are c:hers en 25 wh ch I have the knowledge of an intelligen: layman,

.l. a 1-10 1 and subj ects we will deal with that I knew absciutely nothing 2 at all about, but am determined Ic beccme an expert en in 3 the nex six months. 4 sc :: as very importan that we cannot expect 5 any one person c be an expert en all the issues, so we 6 will have to understand it, and we will ty.en have to explain ~ it so tha: the American pecple clearly understand what we're 3 say ng. a-is obvicusly a major investigation, i: 9 will be a major learning experience for all of us, which 10 will begin toscrrew and I've arranged for a lecture for 11 the Cc= mission en how a nuclear pcwer plant operates, and 12 t_e, su.._ -w.. w-,' b e a .b.e".

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." 5. ' a # _#.a. ~ s .k.a.. ".e e -..e.. 3 13 Commission may wasn simply as part c:- their 2 earn;ng 14 exc.erience. 15 Our sta:f must help us in both c: :n.ese activities. 16 Clearly they are the investigative arm of the Commission; II a: the same time, they are charged with helping Oc educate IS the Commission on a wide variety Of ways. .n add:.: en :c 19 the obvious sorts of things, such as making sure we have 20 the necessary documents and briefing papers, it has occurred t: 32 me that scme fairiy-simple things would help us an encrmcus ~ a= cunt and I'll give these simply as examples.

would 33 help, we'll be dealing with a great many pecple and a grea:

i 1 many agencies, if a staff member could keep. track cf the case

f 25 characters anc cas:

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~ a ".o w 'j "-. ". a. d a. s. a. a. ." c.. a. ^.., ~ 2 ception on scme of the. issues we're dealing'.with'r berugh l 3 r This by telling a small story that happened two weeks ag: ::dsv. 1 1 s ..s we were rushing to :ne.-.. antre acuse :or :ne public anncuncemen: c: this Cccaission, my wife was with me and 6 adly reading me from all kinds of cxcerpts from the public i --a.ss a..d we we.a. n a v... g =..-. # k ' a. . u ".' a. d d w _. "....b. e rada.=' r. 3 Governmen alphaber soup cf age.icies, trying to figure cut 9 .s.. : e-u.. :. u wh:ch,,ah:ch :o. . u. _:. ..u../ 2

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,._a__ng _u.. 4 tremendcusly helpful to all of us. I =ight be a very 5 useful appendix to any reper we publish a: the end of it. 6 That's part one of our charge to find all, :: find cu-all about Three Mile Island. Part two is in the charter 'n 5 a.Very simple sentence:. "to make apprcpriate recem=enda:icns 9 based upon the Cc= mission's findings." 10 I found it =cs: helpful to c back o the public s 11 statement cf the President of the United States two weeks 12 ,..,.. a. .u.._:a., x, c,,/ o.,way __..:.: d u.he. -,,es3___anc,. _a .a u, _s e on w 13 neans. I would like to read you his very brief statemen: 14 - _o o m_; _...,, c r _: C n,v.: ;_ a,a_,_: o; ..e. w.u.,.n* .r, e ng .3 A = 6 15 with the qualifications of the Ccmmission and of its Chair-16 man. I'll. read the substantive part of the statement in 1"' its entirety. And I quote the President: IS "In my address to the Nation las: week, I announced 19 that I would appoint a Presidential Commission :c investigare "O

ne nuclear accident at Three Mile Island.

It is essential ~ .1 that we learn the causes of this accident and r.ake sure tha: the safety of our own citizens is never again endangered in ~ .3 this way." I'm now skipping the portica dealing with the ~ .,4 Cc= mission. And I go on quo ing: l 25 os_. :_,. ,,.s..,_. _ a a_ k,,;_ _.,_ ce v..e

.2..- 1-13 1 ever undertaken by a Presidential Ccamission. The Ccm=issica 2 will find out what happened at Three Mile Island.

will 3

assess how the accident could have been prevented.

will 4

review how the government and 0:hers responded, and it will 5 make recc=mendariens to enable us Oc preven any future 6 nuclear accidents. There can be no dcub: tha: the eyes of tha l I Nation and indeed of the entire world will be en this 5 Commission. Its judgment will have enormous impact. I am 9 confident thA: during its six months of cperation, this 10 Ccmmission will make the right judgments and the Nation will 11 1cng be in its debt." 12 g.a_gv.ona:.g...u.a., 2 a.-.,.s ma. cy say:...-, ~ 13 that is an awesome responsic ~::y and actning nas appened n 14 in the intervening two weeks to change my mind. Members 15 - the Cc= mission, we do have an awesome responsibil:.:y. c: 16 Let me read you the crucial paragraph again. "The 1 Commission will find cut what happened a Three Mile Island, 18 it will assess how the accident could have been prevented, i: 19 will. review. how the gover=nent and c her responded, and it i 3) will make recommendations to enable us : preven; any future .,2 nuclear accidents." I presume the reference here ,.s to i .,4 nuclear power plants and accidents in them. "3 It was indeed an extremely bread charge and : tried

l 1

as rescive in my Own mind how par ene and part two of the 25 charges relate : each c her.

3:- 1-14 1 It seems to me that we're instructed o take the 2 in-depth investigation of Three Mile Island as a case study 3 and then based en what we learn there, make rec =cendations. 4

quite clearly One rec =mencaricas we nake are not su t

5 restricted to tha: articular power plant bu deal in e 6 general with the preventien of nuclear accidents a: pcwer plants. I start with a totally open mind en this. I have 8 nc idea where the investigation will lead and, therefore, 9 I have no idea even as :: wha: the possible recc=mendations 10 could be. I will urge the Commission very strongly that 11 we complete par: one first. Do all the fact finding and l evaluation of what happened here and then, once that is 13 behind us, we meet and meet intensively : try :: formulate 14 .b. e - a.. ~~ ~ e.a.d a _# o n s.". ..".e #'a a - a, aa.d .3_ ..'.e. mm_# *o.'.. c. .-a 15 and certainly myself no Oc engage in any specularien as 16 to what recommendations we might ccme up with until we 1. have fcund the necessary facts. I hope again that we will

nd overw.ne_,m ng consensus on the recc=menda:icns.

l expect that those, in addition := any technical appendices.they a0 need,. will be written in clear r.nd understandable language sc O.ne American peop;.e w 22 knew w.na: we are saying. _,2 uo 2 t ._M_ everything humanly possible := achieve that consensus. If .,3 necessary, I'm going := ask ?residen: Carter :: 1:ck us up .,4 a: Camp David until we reach agreement. .'5 Launched en a very majcr project in a limited I

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w. f of distinguished scientists who can bcch assist us and help 4...f... o us ge a.yeda_nca. .'na we.". ave ..a=."d..#...=se -- w e 5 e.:.:,.c. s..a.., p..s.e a.s.., c a. :.. o.: .u.c s, w.: a no. a_s. u s., v v ..w s 0 o r. a..'/ c, ar..# r.u.' =.".o f.# c.. 10 The ~.4.3.#.a..~.# - v a "y C.' a. _=."

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' =- 0".d.a.". a 11 ".%.... Cw-3.; s a.: O n ; a- . o. a. n C.. s.:.< mC... u..s... -. u.e d a. a. . 4. a-i w f 12 ... s w ee..:.. a..d w.J.7 7 a. n.m.. a. ~. ~a w-n..k.s 23.,.. . k..a. 13

- day

.#a~ *he ?..~ *..h O. .s' *f ".#.'. P. k..a.." a..# ". ". a., w L. ...a.1 -af-C., .w w. 14 us. u,.

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,.s m s.... 15 and, of course, will be publicly released as the Presiden: 16 assured all c' us this morning, by Oc:cber 25th, which is 1 * .: X C n w..a- ..C --day. ~ %. e C v-. ~.: s a.:nn.,-~.;.,.a a_s ..C n..u.s-u s ww .a ..iv 18 ,:,,,.ha*, da*s*_. 7 can ' ~ 'ne.' O, no 'w.#.".".#o ". ".'n e " a c ". ". A " " =. 6 19 that happens to be Christmas day and I'd like to conclude 20 my c en.:.....m-a xa- , : 3... .~n n. u.. s.:.... by ay.,.. ou.a.

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_i 1-15 1 how I went about staff crganization, what I have done and wha 2 I..have intentionally no: done, and a very brief in reducci:n 3 of the staff we have on beard. ! think you have the biographi.e: 4 and all of those are available, and charefore both to the Com-5 mission and to the public and, therefore, I am going c make .he 6 in reductions very brief. ~ The President of the United States personally 3 appointed the aleven Commissioners. In the Ixecutive Order, 9 he charged the Chairman of the Commission to appoint the 10 staff. That created the "ol10 wing dilemma for me; 11 on the One hand I fel an encrmous sense of urgency ic ge: 12 this Commission going, en the other hand, I wanted here 13 as I will in all future dealings, :: make sure that I do 14 no: take away from the right of the Ccamission to make its 15 cwn plans. I resolved this dile=ma by dividing the 16 task into two parts. I fel I had :: recruit the key senior staff members and have them en board by 0 day, otherwise, 18 there would have been no one to arrange this meeting; I chink 19 it would have been a terrible thing if they had not been .,9 present to hear the deliberations of the Cctaission from .1 the very beginning. I'= certain una; the Commission will +> K. ccme up with a number c: Instrue:: ens on wha: ,incs or. .,3 follow-up activity they wish and clearly we needed a full l s _. _, _ _.. c _. _.._ y. w...a. u, o, and. .a.m- .- 5 e - a_ a __a.#.. . "._=, "e .'.5 w,./._ u., .e. _, _, s. _, _e., c. n --#5_= =s ^..a.se u__ s._=_#_# _=s cso- '_, f h

,a 1-17 1 before,the next meeting of the CO-ission. On the c her hand, 2 I decided no: to Ocuch the question of who our key scientists 3 will be. I thought it was no: necessary for the firs: mee - 4 ing of the Commission. I thought that we will be giving 5 s# nais .o .5.e -u.a'd-e w o ". d -

a

~.a .k.e c m, o s #. #.. 4 is vital here and sensitive; I felt, therefore, tha: this 7 decision should be made by the entire Ccanission and we 3 w ; a, s, be going into executive session this afterncen :: 9 discuss possib,e names :cr our senior star __ and Junior 10 sta,:- members on the scient ::c si,e. 11 'de have been sent literally hundreds of names end I'm 12 leaving entirely ec the Commission the decision of hcw : 13 cheese from these. 14 an thinking abcut the crgans:ation 0:- the <ey starr, 15 I decided on three senior staff members: the staff director, 16 a chief counsel and a public information direc:cr. They II will report directly to the Commission, through its Chairman; IS ther:cre, they ave a degree of independence frem each c her. n 18 Let me describe their duties in reserve order frem what I've 20 said. The Public Information Director's task is cuite .3 clear: Oc provide the public with informatica and :: help the Ccamissioners in any roles they may play at any time ~ .,3 -., g a s, :. -

..u.

..u.e . g u, : e,g s :, . u.. a.e n :,- = u.n.ge-a: - <.:,- : - -- -. s .,4 counsel who will give us legal advice; fortunately he was 25 one _ n.,,,,,s,,- -

,,,_.: ;,d

.,7.: _.._ c u, _...a i I l.

1 -. a. s e.".c a., ~.'_#-n2 wou_'d ba_ a.". _' _' _' a. 3 _= _i e a_. _4..~. m.# . " a. c e- -. # - _# v... ~ m 22 ae nave :cund cut a_,A the r,ega, things we have to g: :nrcugh 3 . a d v a. -. _# s e %'.h _# s m a. a _#.7

a.. m.

2..d - ". #. e c ' a. a. _* v '..a.

w #_ _i _i 3 s 4 guide us in a wide variety cf ways. e will be available to us 5 during meetings, give legal counsel, help us with examination g c: w :nesses and, in genera _,, per:orm :ne runctions of chief counsel. The Staff Director will have all the 5 -, s.

n..:

he s a.:.: -,, c r. _:.. n u.._:. a..>- .u._,2- ... e _, _..e. 3 g major and overwhelming responsib.,._ :y c:. previding stac:.. 10 support for everyone else. Tha: means, both the investi-11 s_, .y,. ,a. c.:.he s as:. _ _ _. a., c... c n _. 12 p.ev:ce 2.,_. aug o. .en-u.e,...._:.-,. C.-.t_:22. n :.-.,,g,_ _, e c u.. se e 13

a..d 5e

.o. ub l.# c ....#-. -a. #. n D _#.-a.r.... _=nd 2 w =. a.. _4 -. 2 14 we may n re :or nis Commission. Therefore, clearly the.culk 15 of our staff will report there; we don't know exactly how 16 =any we will. nave. .: :1-h: be up to the order c:. 6 1. =agnitude or. twenty-: ve star:.. se=cers over :ne nex: six

S

onths period.

19 What I thought mest abour,'after I managed to'get tr e 20 basic staff.crganization, is, what is the relatica be-19 ~~ tween the Cc= mission and the staff? And I =culdn' help _ w ..k _#.7 g = _" c u o w.".a ,ar..# "._'a-.o_'= ha. C'. a.# - ar. ".c s..- l .)3 l p ay.

was made very clear :: me cy the...un; e acuse 1

1 3 _w,-

- _ ac-=c a.d.

..k. a. c.h.a _#.-. a.n =."._# 'e.a v a. .. -.' =. v. =. _ wou_d .s .,5 a u. w.,... _.2 _3 2_. c u... - n.: 2 _ _ e.. ..u.e ..c -. x

4..:

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1 C.--__: a _a n n. o .M. a..H.e. a..* _' _= n a-h. ava. =_..d *_.. ~/ ^ '. h _'.n V. '.. = 3 3 a..a _, n. ~ =_ s. _=_s. a e v a_ - > ' =.". ' c 3 _' = s, a.. d 'a ". _' _' a_.c.=. _2-3 4 ,e .e r.., .- e ya_ c 7. e uo. w _'. k.. ne ..".a 2 e a...a.s. e.. -. e_ a e 5 bad One and one with which : have some slight familiarity--name-6 ly, the decisien-making structure of a university. The university operates under a charter usually issuad by a 3 .we-a.._:~.,_,a_ =se uo, ". a. -.".a-.=., o.= c.u.se- =- a_e. ..n _ ..._o e 0 was issued by the President of the United Sca:es. I sugges: 10 to you it's a fairly reasonable analogy : think cf the 11 C - _# s _#... as "e_3ng on'a_ "o c a_-d c ". -". s

a. a a-p_'_='/_..3-

.."i_ c_a_ - - a s 12 ..ha. .he k.ca-d c.#..us ea_s 1'-"/ 4.. ".. _# v a_. s _3 /.

7. %..a_ " c _=.- d

= 13 h.as.he -=sk o.' see 7 _' _#.. - o,u" ' e m_4 = # ^. ~. # -".a. 3.. s _#.".. 4 ^ n, n o u.. 14 here the Cetnission, under the general charter.

Clearly, 15 we must operate under the charter given Oc us by the 16 4

3 ,s_ den. c,.he Un_.eg. s,., s, b u,. w, _ u. t.,. _ %. a _., .w, _w_ 1 a w a.:..us ea.s, ..h= _'a- . k.a. .ea.s F. m # - #.., - - a. s " a c' 7 y so f. m IS has the responsibility of cpelling ~ cut exactly 19 what the mission is and hcw it should be approached, and m like the board of trustees, the Cc=missioners will make .1 - _3 _,.." e ke'f.c.' _' ~f ec # s _# ns. ~ %..e -.. s. 2 d -. _ c.. =...... a_ s i l ~ ; n _' %. a. u.

. _.e._n _ - a_ e_ n.....p... A..n _ ;.. s.

4_a c L,.- n a g e, C.; e m. u,. g E, a._ .,3 _u.e ,ca-a. n a s,..,_ _:. u.,. _ u.e _:._..a. On _he _._ne-u.a..d, u _ h. e M.. _E - _E - m. M.A M.

N.e g g a_ _ a.h., _ _$ _$ _.

_.m. a s N.._E._. 3..m n _. am _3 -w./ m Age _ oa.. m-. B itself. This is why universities have administra:icns

a' Sg 1 m.e.d .gug6es ..ga ..u.a. sea:: =4 . g e a.. a _3. 3, ...u. e a s.,1.,. 4 s.,. a - v 2 ..: v- ?. %.. e s. = #." "as = w""a' . a..'.=.. # ..s- "..#. ...". e ". c a

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-- a a - -.. .2 4 mission of the Cc= mission, according 6 the policies laid dcwn sy the Co-m'. ssion, and must, in return, pcrvi,a aa,.. In:cr=a: cn o v 6 needed and requested by board, in this case, Commission members. 3

v. u..a., a.:.. e... u.

... a.

a... =

s-n..n. ...y -. a a:, u -o 9 is in the whole business. '4 hen I ahd gotten this for in the 10 un'versity anaa~ogy, it occurred ro =e :na: the"e is a '1 1 rather ceculiar c.os ::cn in mos; univers;;;es c:- a cerscn 14 .d..C u,., 3 a memse- +. ..u.e a c a-A O.: .,l a-. a a s =.. %..a a. . a-u -w a 13 . es,se ns.t y ;, :.y c.: u e-y;-;..- ~. %. a. -,.:.:.

r. u.. a.,e. s e n ; a-a r a-3 2

g 14 usually kn wn as the presiden; of the university and has 15 a rather strange dual role, which seems to =e a very good 16 analog. at least for my role in :nis Commission, that when 3. e sit with the Ccmmission in. del'.berations, _'m s ino. u, one of :.e e,even. ceco.,e, ac.c.en to have the casx. c:. t.. 19 t chair mg 1:,

s. u : as :ar as voting goes,

.,a simpa,y one a0 of eleven votes in setting policies. On the c her hand, - t.2 C.hg;-a.f y. %. sn e e y - a. :.s- ..u.a 2.,.2.: a.. a - c.aaK:..s- .~ a. -o. a ,a. s ur 44 .ha. an_T o.: ..u.e .- a... a,/ a. s o.: ..%.e %C a.- A- .a m. a. C_n, ta.A.,.,..k. a. A "3 ...a. a,-. .es a_x c.3-y a yeu ya... .o .agv 7a_ j .4 .. rembers as they may arise, :: =ee: d '. sputes among star: B w -* ..b.om " e."~ e a... "ca-d-. e a.. -.. e_ s, =.. - - - a_ ". =_ ~. J..w e.. -, aa:"'=. s 1 l

2., .1-2.' a c "w 1 .o -a.ka. s ura. .a" a. ..b e s. a.#.#.#s, e.# # =. c., e.=-.v'..3 c "... ".. a. 2 mission of this Ccamission. I may say that all strikes scme 1 .' a. v a..' c.# .#.= ~.#.'.#.=. #.. /. o. a.,.=nd 7 '.. a v a. w.=- -=.* ad 'v. '##a 5-4 d "...#.. ~3 ..h a..'.= s. w ac we e' s a.a.d. = a- .' a.d. 3.d. . o ..S. e 2. a. s.# " =.... ~ x y a 5 c# .h e U r.#. e d C. a. e s.."..# s.sc an _#. ~, - '.a a v a.#.'.= k ' a. .#. - ". f. w-w 3 q gAa.1. O. 2 .. 31.a: me .a .h,. i.:.:,. c.. h..t. C-.m.:s.. nw ...C .. a w... s.... .w w. 7 .ha 's whe ha.'.# *".a. w_41.'. a.. e.# v a. 'n a. s c,. _#. .#.'/

.. -f

~' 3 3 1.434.. 9 7 "a C u ' d. '.#.k = o C ^w n C.' ". d e b y _#..... d U C.#..-. ". a. o..=.#.# 10 members. But before doing so, it would be unjust if : did not 11 briefly give thanks := those who have made the las: twc weeks 12 possible. Remember I was here in " dashing cn briefly for a 13 twc-hour meeting in the,a.s.n te ncuse the m,ay after O.ne appcint-14 ment, trying Oc set as much in action as I could, and then 15 bc h had to go home to cancel al=cs: everything I had planned 16 to do for the next six months, including :a four weeks vaca-17 . : n. n. .V.d.ah..,e . was do.:..- wha,..,/.:.. - r x/ ... x e...,. 6 sw IS .a.. asyc.4n,enes. r. ...s wou.d '#ke.o e".a..x' C- _#-.=.= s- - sa w. 19 McPherson, who offered his servicas early in effect Oc be my 20 representative in Washington, and do some c: the preliminary 21 e e . 3...y.,.w..g s .co". .e, au-d.#. wa- .". a. v...' y wa *f. ".a-..'e

c" n

.m l.. could have been done from a icng distance. hank you very l 23 secn g y,.r> ..x,.. e-u..,.,.x,.. s. ue v.: ,.;u...:.,.. =.n. t., .uen, o. l 24 s.a..: me-ue." s w ".c w e." a.

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r. a = .c_., c, i a. .a.d v 4 s o.,.# -. be#.7- _oa. k..a..'.# u _'.".. c " 5". u"- ...e a....#.- =. f.. c a. e.. 3 ~ - a. ". a..# v e d ".. e ' p."u _' s" -a.s..# 7s

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=.."..".a.- 3 -.... # - - #.. =..= s. t aa_. 4 I talked to each of them on the phone, and have received 5 hu..d.-a.da-w'.# a

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.'o. - 5 3 6 those. There's one last perscn I have to thank. It's my S first appointment and my briefes: one, asked him to serve ~ advisor to it.e Chairman or a perios, or two wee.<3 9 as a specia, y 10 until our first meeting, to tell the Chairman how one goes 11 a m o u,..:n - _:... - a s-.a:.: a c.-m_: m o : n. n _~ _: x,, ..u._: a. ..n o-- ,a ..m la. .'.i a.nd 2..d aomeone 7-.=.sye 3.=.=.-y, = d#-.#..3"_#-"..ed = -a 2 13 '4ashington attorney, Mr. Berl Bernhard, who has served as 14 s a.=.= Dt_.- a.c..-. v~.= - h e U*. s*. v :./ _ _, R_:-u..- C ~ ~ : a s _# o. .a ;. u..

3. a. a.

4 w 3 a mm 15 distinctio n, .was the one person I've kncwn very well per-16 sonally who could tell me how one gets started -- whenever 1 putting such a staff together. Berl, I hope you're in the IS audience, I think you are. If you are, thanks for your help 19 in these Wo weeks as it would not have been possible without 20 you. 21 Jow 3. e me a...,.ou..c. ..w.e affo.n ..a.e w x.. .m a. a.s.: ..eawe s. . e s.a-. .- o. r. -. -a

c.,..

t m L,..s _:.,.a _ _. w. 23 = d e.- a. =. .#.... e c ".a n _# c a _'

a. n 3 _'. e * - -..

.#..m .".e ' *.*. # v a ". s #. v..~. # 24 C3_,J.:.....Ja, .m..d a 7_ons a _- d A: --2.J- _n -o._:s.w.e A c 3 - o. o..- W.W.. v a. t. l .J _' _' 3 25 s e. 4.,. ..w.e

o...=. : _,,. A- - -

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a.. s- ' 93 sc" 1 u".' a. - - ~ u. a. d. .. e .# s. =.. _#. ed_ .#. -.m.'re..^.2 .'=_#..',-.a.r.=...'-j, . '. a. ' s-W 2 why he was available i==ediately. And a cngs: his cualificarians 3 tha are mentioned, simply the =cs importan: one, =.s ycu will,se 4 frem the biographical statement that he served in the earlier 5 days, and then chaired, a large number of the investigations 6 in NASA dealing with varicus kinds of problets NASA had -- 7 that scmewhat have analogies

the kind of investigation 3

..'.a. we have b..ad, ..b.4..3 2 '..av#...- w'-

..'. 2.. #.d =.. s,

..a.. = - 9 gerial problems, these internal operational problems in NASA, 10 he really became an expert en this and comes :: us with the 11 very stronges recen=endaticas cf all those whc know him. 12 3ruce Lundin is sitting on my left, and your right. 13 Bruce joined us yesterday and is now going ou 14 %.. _:.- =. .h a =a g o., a-. c.=. u.e -. =.=.c., .u.e _#._:..g o.= .ha

a... -. -

15 runate in a way -- we wish it could have been earlier, but 16 3ruce feels he will profit greatly frca hearing the discussion 1"' or the Commission this a::erncen be: ore ne nas to n_re any c:- 18 nas assoc ates. 19 Chief Counsel is Ronald 3. Natalie, graduated frc= 1 20 Tufts College and has a law degree from Gecrge Washing:On 21 g.._: v a..- s _#./, a d _# -._* n gu _# .h a.d_ 'ia s b.. 4.. 3. n 2 . o -..e >-.. #. = ' ' = w v. =., -~ = a l .w and -- I'm very pleased to introduce en my right, ycur left, i 23 Ren Natalie cur Chief Counsel. 1 2h ,O L,.-

c.._. b.T _:C. n.= -. ma. 4... 3_;-a.C
a.-k a _= s w-.: a...s c.

-s w s. 3 "5 wne w __- be en eave c: accence. 2ncidenta--y, sncu,c say s l I

3-. -24 scb 1 in the case of Mr. Lundin, he was in retiremen; and we coaxed 2 him cut of it. Ir. The case of our Chief Ccunsel, he resigned i 3 frc= the law firm that he werked with previously. Barbara 4 Jorgensen will be en leave of absence, a Direc cr of Media 5 Relations at the National Academy cf Sciences. She's a grad-6 uate and did graduate werk in the University of Florida in T Gainesville and through her experience a: :he National Academy 3 cf Sciences, she is kncwledgeable both in public informatica 0 and =cs; i=portantly, in public information where dealing with 10 scientific subjects. I take great pleasure in introducing 11 Barbara Jorgensen, on the lef: there. 12 Then I'll ask the staff members whc have been success-13 ru in recrusting some.aldes in t.u.e process, Oc introduce ther . ~ 14 -- I guess, Bruce, you haven't had the chance yet? 15 MR. LUNDIN: Not yet. 16 CMAIRMAN KIMINY: Ron Natalie, would ycu in reduce 17 the staff who is cresent? s IS MR. NATALII: Certainly. We have been fortunate 19 in getting two people to serve in. the Chie: Counses's 0:::ce. 20 To my right is Mr. Michael R. Hollis, who is -- was, associ-21 a, g., :. g a v._.,y _, a.--,., ng a _; 2 .. -,_ _ s..ec _ _, w. : -... _.. n_. _, _,... _,, 3 which he has resigned frem. And during the period last week 23 when we were all in Hancver meeting with Dr. Kemeny, Michael 24 .=.c _ - - a, :-.aas _ u..e C, - : = = _:.,. =,-- :--,

_e

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--6-*--* ~* -- 10 a considerable period of time and she will be Of inmense 11 , s s _: a..a c,. .; n tn.e ad,..:.,._: a...a. :,/ a. >e a.:., o..u.a. r s.-,..:...-. - u. e .a 12 necessary to frame the hearings and the evidence tha: this 13 Cc==ission is going to have to hear. Thank you, Dr. Kemeny. 14 CHAIRitMI KEMENY: Thank you. Barbara, do you have 15 any introductions yet? Or, you de not yet have any appointments. 16 There's one person I don't see in the rect, is Ru-h 1~ here? She's here. I would like :0 mention that I'm going 18 to have Ruth La Scmbard, my lengtime assistan a: Dart =cuch 19 College, relieved of par: of her responsibilities for Dart-M- south College so that she =ay serve at the Hanover end, as 21 cocrdina:=r and contac: point between the work Of the Commis-22 sion and what I do as Chairman when I'm not in 91asning n, l 23 w n _:..w.. aus e.. e., _, Oe -.. C._. .w. m.q r _- w, .e.. .=....e y.. y i I g Xm..g e i y # '* C ".. 8."... 7'" ...a- .a ../..." ~..*.*ya".*.a. 3 _-f 25 .-.2,_7 -,f -.src n a '.' ' _'. 4 a. s.' s..# a. s _* ' a.".. C.* * ~. =. ~.~..'.'=~3=.

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.k.. e.... a. "a e..=.k a. 27 .#...=.- w # 3 a 5 9 mission, each Cc=missicner shculd have a chance : .ake remarks 10 cc whatever they wish to dc, and perhaps we could have the same 11 alphabetical roster. Governor Babbitt, cc you wish :: make any 1 commeka-1 4. 13 C'~"' V S S *~0 N"R B AB B ~ ~~ ~ - V" t"a # - a a >

as=-

.y C'J. AIRMAN KEMENY: You'll pass. 15 ( All Cc:.missioners declined : ccament.) 16 C'4).IRMAN KIMENY: May I, in that case, say i 's 17 going to be an absolute pleasure werking with you. 'et's see, i 13 e t.,." s o.". e d". ' =. c _= _' _' s .#.- ". d e c.' a" # n g =.". _#... =.. m _# - _#.. _ =.. " wa as 19 move to Con #erence Roca C, still in open session, and -- we're 20 not going to move, very goed, we,re going to stay here. ..ne y _: _, _~., gy a. g7. _ y. a.. -- a g _ c e. u..c u a.g e. _a- ..u.,. .--..a.n...

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9u., c,.e eads a..:: a a,,7 3 "N e.., - %.. a,/,. .m. a.,..._4..a s _.,. 3c 23 a.- ..: i u .vJ ,a. a...7 c n ~. 4,a.,e .. e w a. .J,, en a.ess.: ... c.. __ ;... a.. u - u.. a. -y v.. . e."13.:. 1,. ... 5

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i ) o.3 27 sch I and the Chief Counsel will brief us en t..* and we may Or may ..n.. sy. ac,,2e sc...e u..c, ..a-es .u. n. - - -.t.. s a-.z ..h,.. .s.a.. .c

a a n.

a s 3 3eni0r staff members. ~ Ocid them I'd give them that Option. 4 Yes, one thing I'm sure Chief Counsel will brief us on, that 5 we have : sign certain key dcctments. Perhaps we could de 6 that as part of your briefing; can we wait till after the brea.'< ? 7 In that case, I declare a 15 minute intermission of the 5-Cc= mission. 9 C.secess 10 11 I

I e) es 13 14 15 16 1 4 IS 19 20

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?_ ..e.,1 e. ._.s 'a n.e na,/,_ .2 .s 3 3 -. w,ien. We c o -..=. e.. ' -y wa... .c 'a. = s a_ c -.....u da. #...-.. - .. =. ~ e 4 press in all our proceedings as pessible. I hope we can find a set-up and in the precess the em=issioners can aisc 3 6 see wha: they're doing. And it's -- I knew tha: the staff I on. almost no notice at all did a miraculous 4cb ar-3 . a.. - # n g e n' _# s m e a...#.., sc 7 dc .c....=__=.. "e c.#_ _# a', bu. s_ 9 it's just very hard to see here. If you see us fumbling 10 with c. ac. ers, 's because we canno see a :ninn.e '1 '*he next item on our agenda :.s br:.er ng cy n,.n'e:- 12 Counsel. I basically said Ic him, I have kncwn there have 13 been independent Presidential cc= missions before, but they 14 are not a very common occurrence. .vna; are ney: waa: e.re 15 ge 4., pcye,.,s,,.s,ycnst3434 _:_s, ,4 .._.. s3 3.,d.'.'. -s 16 Natalie, cur Chief Counsel. 1. MR. NA As,a-s: Thank you, chairman.,emeny. _ wa t. IS attemo. to.<eec ne br:..er:.n sacr: anc run over ne var:.:us s 19 laws that govern the Commission, and what its duties and 30 -a_ s yo.s # b # ' #.~# es a*. e. .a.d _# _'. 4.e - a_ a. a. = n2/ o' 5e...a..=..s b.a. 7 d_# s cus - s.ha ..".e C e.~m4 - ' =. s _ _- =_ s." ". ..'".a. ". =. x,' =...= - 4 a. 4., . J a,.. c.:, %._J...g ..o g.1 A b e p. a. 3 e s_.k.i s. %..g y o. .t a s k...,_, y. s. m. a3 ..z. _..k.g. ..w.a.,. k..gy....,. $ _Jva_ a i=W A a v.c c.' -.b C '- ' _= _ _ ~. .=....a- .u._: N. u.a..:. ww., " A..s.t. a a ~ _%.ese _ Taws. T. 4e u.

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30 1 take C==issioner Taylor to explain a. nuclear reac Or := 2 us ::corrow. Although i: =ay be a ce==entary en govern =en: 3 in the late 20th Century that I'm nc: sure who has the =cre 4 cc= plex sta#f between the two o f us. 5 The basic document that Dr. Kemeny has already 4 referred you to, which is in the actebecks before you, is the 7 Cem=ission's charter. And he has read :: you # rem the tasks 3 _ga. a. asa.:~ned .a ..'. e C - ~ ~_ _# - _# ^ n. ~

e _' _# a_ v a_

.". a.."..*.".a..* mo. 9 is, := a large extent, self explana:Ory. There are a couple 10 of things, though, that may recuire further elabora:ico s 11

n Section 5 of the c. darter, which describes the 12 support services that are going c enable the Cc==ission to 13 perfer: its work, you'll see a reference :0 the availabili '/

14 s e suppor: "rca other governmen: agencies. The mechanis: 15 that has been adopted to imple=ent this provision has new 16 been finalized. A total funding co==i:=en of 31.3 million II to fund the Cc==ission's operations has new been arranged. 18 Those funds are beins.revided c.artiallt/ bY the Department of c 19 - nergy, and par _. lly by the Department or n.. 2igh

now, a

a. 20 something slightly over $1 million -- $1.015 million, I be- _ a_ve _..w.e.3 4 u. a. is -- has a_'-=.ad_v, k a. a..a. -. a.. s.# =. -. a d_ #...* e ac: cunts at the Depar:sent of Treasury. I think that was .,3 effective las: Wednesday. Those ac: cunts will be administered .,4 l for us by GSA, and the Cor #ssion, as an independen; bcdy, 1 25 _ moue ...s_.__C_...,,.s u,se,. _,, a,/.; _. a_ u_ ;,,. ___a. ..._a a.__

3 1 mechanism was established in order -- because of the emergent.y 2 nature of this Ccamission and the necessity to transfer funds 3 Oc it as rapidly as possible, while a: the same time pre-4 serving the Commission's independence. The reason this mech-- 5 anism was adopted, that is, the transfer of these funds from 4 the Treasury Department c cur accoun:, is to completely isc-late the Ccamission frem the Department of Energy and the 3 Department of HZ'd. No that there's anything necessarily wrcag 9 with these entities, but the need for a wall between this >i 10 Ccmmission and the ultimate funding sources, c preserve the 11 Cc==ission's independence, 20 preserve the Commission'T free-14 dem in selecting staff, Oc preserve the Cem=1ssacn's :reedom 13 Oc pursue 1:s investigation, wherever that investiga ica may 14 lead, is indispensable. And that was a judgment that was 15 reached, and I'm afraid I didn't consult Dr. Kemeny abcut the 16 details or..::, I tock that responsibilley on mysel:., but : I fel: that was a mechanism that had to be established from the IS cutse: or the Commission's operations frem day one -- migh: 19 be under a cicud -- and I think we have that new all resolvec. 20 Section 6 of the charter states tha: the Federal 21 Adviscry Committee Act gcVerns the Operaticn of this Commi - 48 tee. ae nave copies c:- that Act availac.._e := you, and we -- r l 23 They're not in your becks, but we can ge: them to you. Mes: \\ I 24 l cf them are not particularly si~nificant for the purpcses 5 1 25 that we're addressing here, but there is cne section of cha: l

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- e-f. 6 ..c. f.ny:ges .ya. a-- mea...,.-- c.: .u.e n - m : s a _:.,.,.,.,.., y,. 32 oc.en to the.oublic. subiect : certain defined exceptions. 3 ~%..c s e e x-, p..:., n s,__-...u.e s a. e,. xn.. ?.

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,w ..u.a.r-c a,, a_ s ..u. e _ c,/ e -. -, n. _:... u.,. 2 L.,. .u..:.,.,. ac., n a 10 that I'm sure many of you are f amiliar with. The Gcvernmen 11 ...u... .eu.. h '.a.e.2.c. #.s e 1.# .#.* ~. ^.. a, y ' #..= b ' e..-.."..# - F..-.. 2 2 12 s : s..., because

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13 bedies a majority of whose members are appointed by the Pres-14 ident with the advice and consent of the Senace. And obvicuse 15 -y, none c: the members c:. th. s body rail. n that descrip-16 1. . the Government in the Sun-newever, one por:Len c: W s h i.ne Ac. N..as b e =.a. adco..=.d., a..d.k.a. .".e c a. # ^. .ha. --.- 19 v# des .#.~. .k.e s#.7-. c.# e a_ a- _4.. c a. -. a #.. c # -. ".s..=... a. s. 3 40 ~ One of these exceptions will cc=e int play : day, as Dr. di ~ e.~..e.,.,/ u..as n -a.ady .,..e.. : -,..e

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a.:.a. -..n..n .N s oo c :...., C_nnse4 sesa:n. :-...u.,., L,. n C s e .: a: - -n -3 5--*S -+ s f f --a 43 w s a...- - a. s c a.a' c"-=-###.=.# ns '. s*ye...# va. a....y _'.* "j = a s.-. n.. s g a *,

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I va _# ^ us e a.c..' a.w h.a. f' u w _# _' _' w a..... ' a. .... a _# ". a...#..., m e...e 2 whom we knew who they are and sc=e we den't even knew because 3 ..". e C. s _# ..a.. s 'n >. v a..a.'. v a.. =,c.>.=.....a. , w o u _' '_, / a 4 d;ud.en, and ?. %.. = v e s c c e..#.# # a d. ..h a. .a.d.. _'.._# -.. a..- c.# = 3 3 General Services, public discussion of those na: ers wculd d o.n ns..t.u., an t .aa.-..,... a.g _; ny_, s ;_ c. n.: _ u.,., e. s -,.a _, f. _ y, n../ .= f v the people who will be discussed. -na: is a staturcry ground 5 3- .a c-es.#.7- ..".e

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?. ada... ". =. ~ =. -. _#.#.# _=. _#., n. .'..a. 0 .a.ga: n.s. a.m.- __ ..u.e.xn.. .zgm_... _. _. - c..- c.1 _i. -.. a.g ., a a. aa. 10 authority Oc Chairman Kemeny Oc clcse the meeting when we 11 .., c.. ..u. a.

a..d, ],. c.

u 12 3..... y, cus ,_..u.,.- r c.a.en. __/, a, h,a b _' '- j 13 .. c u_S e add ^one ..w..'.... U..d 8.- ..".e " o v e -..e..e... _# n ..".a. S u..- m.. 14 sn.le AC, wh.#.n' * ~.. v.# dwes.#-" c__' ed ..e e..#.". 3 2,..b. a. _'. s e d. f w. a 15 =ee t:.n . s ele. must have a transcric.t and a stenorrac.a c a 16 ,,en,. g,,ge c.a yc t.,.ay hay,. b e,.,.,,.,d _;.,. _. u.,. __,_ sm___; p_a. 1 of the Nuclear Re5ulatory Commission in the public press re-IS cently; that's how that came about. That subsectica cf the 10 ecvernment in :n.e sunsa:.ne Act s..as not, however, been incorp. .'0 c.a.,. .n.- ..u.e .,. e.a. A,/ :. a. c.,f w.....,. a. 1.C., s c .4,.

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.s .~ .1 -a.c,u.t.-,. d. - do.. a.. f.ie a-a. . a., u #.- a. d., b... w e v a..a, .S.a. a. y.' e - .i., . _, _; _,,. d

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.a .,..s .ac..s e. _n. . u.,. w _ s g.. s u. 23 aess. n,..: u.cu_. _./u.1 3_ on. f, e. s v n a.i. _: 2 - -, _ J....u. _,. t. n.. 3 a .4 , s ..u.e...._ _:a. _:n,., n, .. =. -. .-,..n.,. _ /.a.n n_...a. :. n.a. _..vv _ /e _. 1.ns e a .,5 ot - ~ _a. _:.n,....:,- u,. .-ye uy _ u.a. ..:.v _ _ _- c.: . e n,an ...... - oo l i 1

3 34 1 release these minutes. 2 ..,.,..-. a.- a l a. # c u a- -.'.a..- =. x - =.. _#...a- ...2. n. ~ d.'..'. 9 3 d o qs. g d _i y e....a. .... - f... y a. _,3.. 3. -,....... s a.: -. u .e._ .52 t.. l 4 not sure whether we're far encugh advanced in cur Work cc have ^# ..k.e n c a ~ e.#...- p.' av..a.... # - .# 7e ^ ~. nc.. e =..-. a.#.. - a..v, -w a 6 ly knew some of them we aren'. Su as an example, Commissic5 de3'.gerations en the quest on c:. wnether subpcenas shou _.a .ce w S s _asue...-.ana. _and:v:.au a _, a, 4 6.,.

e. n.. c.,. _t n a, s.. s. _..u.,.

e 0 ,e - ka.,

a. a..a..=..s

.5a. -ay he c_'.se-. ~. '.. e a a...e _' ~.. ". a. v.# a m a 10 Commission deliberations and determinations, should we decide 11 .ha. ye ..a... .,uaa-. _ u.,. s e a-_...e...

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- " x, c e.a s. ".. =. = - a. - ". a. a.. 13 tumacicusly treated, er for any c her reasons. 14 . n e ,. a _3. c,.,.,. x,. m,. _.,,.,. 3u u.c,,, _, _., e _ 3

a.,,,

.. a a .---.3 15 c.' ma.a. e '... s .".a. _i.nvo _' ve ac us _' n .4..d ' v ' '". = _' s - -...- w-. =. _4 c n e 3 e. 16 of criminal activity. That does nc: mean chat when we have 1*' cu. cub.i'a h..a.a.- 4_..~ s, we..e a d. _' _-..e d._' a. a. _' y c ' s e = ..a. a. 'S a..:_ ness says.r nk w..a. Xv.., - m p a.,.y w _: s u a _.a_, n 19 ac.. rd. ha. :. > e s.ne a,. _a - ::..u.e C,,..m.: --: a a.c. z. s e__ue ._n-a -- a s ao ~ whether Oc make an accusation that wculd be a criminal accusq- .1 _:on, ,:..s. og-._:,s, _ong. g-. v.a ..u.e ..a.,.. _:...- ...ay

u.,.

n s f .= closed. 49 a .. C a s,. - s ? T./, ..e._Ca .n. ^ -... a a.a s. . e a. _.... ~ 2 s - a. ~ 3 az ~ i se e,q.u9:.u s : v e- --a..e _..u.e.as.--.oeg_ ~.... "...s,. e _. a. r.sa.,- 1.s _ .a - l a.J s v'sc.v, "w.'...'...==. .S.c. ..k.a.

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l l / J3 1 1 .'n =. A ^ _-.~._a- . _=.~e ~. c. "e e n a. _= _'.= e ~</.- a. s _=.'. '. ra &. s a _ / *. ^ n. .m.

a. s u_:.-..o n.. v-.

t, a,. . : -..c a. ..u. a. n. _; s a. :,, u.: s_.. r.,.< _: -. 2 .. a s 3 15 days ago, it was impossible to cceply with that recuire-4 ment. But we will, cbvicusly, dc tha in the future. The 5 C w Cm.a s _:,.,., .n add;. n, ..u.a., , s. n,a-a,.,.

u. m. C. e w.: r.e _: a.e w

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, = :e.-s a s_ . :...a _,.; .a _a. 9 Commission meetings, when they're scheduled and what the 10 x.as _4 - a - a..a. d a c.# ..b.c s e. e a. #..3 s w--_i 'c e.

k..a. ' s a m. a.

h _4...- 3' s 11 ... a. . u. a.,. a. a. s e -,1 7..e g _: a-. s..- , k': r .f uw - _ a. _ w.., u a. n _a u a S..u. m. T a s_ o _m _' w 12 Re3_#- =~..#s e.cbe.b_'y nc -=.=d w3.'a 3.ae. .". =. c, e.. c'/ x v =.~.y c n e 13 in this-recm, c her than the lawyers here, who say read it 14 e ...m ay . say. 15 The Commission is also obliged by the Federal Ad-16 visory Committee Act, and based on what we heard from Dr. 1. .<emeny :s...s morn ng, it,s obvious wou_, dc :n..ts even :.:.. 16 it were not so obliged, it is obliged to permi: interested 19 persens to attend, appear ber.cre, or :1_,e statements w :h :.:, en the subj. ect matter c:. cur :.nvest:. gar:.cn. ecme of that .1 .. _: ~ _~ ..a,/ ..u.,. w mn.. n.w, a.. .ua. a x. e c n.,, a3...ca .nc, a, -...,. a c _,/ f ~~ carry ever en Oc Friday as well, as I understand it. The 33 vo,.

as_;cn

.es nave _.u.a. a u...c. _:../. s a s., u, ; a. u. _n---..:..=... e ry. .,4 ~ . " T a. s ar. d. =. g u_'.=..' ^ n s ~. ~.,....=.'< = ~. *. = f. a. s e.~. ~. a. _.. c.- ^_ e. /. 'de .,5 ..c t _, a., t. a _4,.._. a _. -,..-. a..< _2. ,i a, 4 u. m. - a. n4 ..a ava. m a.... a w. y. k_

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.a. m_ x. = _., a n _..w. s. s t,y. a .s o ,. _ w :. ..,.e . n _,._ c: = =..=- a w n, .k. a e o f c -. a...#..".,.. ~ s...=_, = n u" 3 xnew Dr..<emeny intends to a::ord i to anycne wne nas an ....a e s - _n _sh e p ma Ca_ a_p ; n s c _: _h ; o-w,.

so.:n.

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_2_-=. a t..*. _#.. = d o ~..~~. e ei vommission are su.g;. ect to po s s ::.b a.e :.nspect.cn by app,:..ca cas n filed under the Freedom of Information Act. Tha: Act ce ntai.-]s 3 ..<..y - 4 o r.s a.'-i ow# n -

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5

-. wa s. 9 C a. n # # d a n C =-, c e.- *. a.#.. yo. e s c.# . n' a _#...#.m. a. _#,.,. .#...- ~ n _# #.*. e.. e. =. 10 Those exceptions are analogous c the ones tha I discussed 11 ' e.#- -. w#.5 =.=seec c _' o s.#.T-c.# ot o' _.#.. e =...#.n =, _=.. d 5 =. - a. 3 3 14 are scme additional ones, such as sensitive, commercial er 13 proprietary infor=ation, and the like. I dcn't think, since 14 a ~-.5 _4 - _#...e we d^.' 'nav=. =.y,ae s, ?_ . 4. _4. '<. _#. ' d -. ", a.h, _i -/ a e. f 15 be a waste of everyone's time for me to explain the Freedom 16 c: _n:ormat:.on t.c: any rur.,.er than :n.at, un_,ess if sc=ecne 1, wants to know about it. 18

.a ' ' 'f,

3" a.ss,. _#. 5. =_ s c, e c .'.= = d e.=-'.2.dv #_ a w-. v, 19 Commission Act application to this authority, to this Commis- .,0 =.4 t, ..k. e e s - # - o.. =. t - a_ _' = m a. r. # s-w"..a. 5e...m. m # - _# - t ' =- r r oo i .n. .du..#as and.a.see n. s # b # _' _# _ # =_ s _= - =_. . n e..-...- 2 _#.n ' =- d ".. 4 a_ s =..d c. en.s#k#'#.#as, _=s ..".e..am= o#.. ". = .a.c -. t ' _# =_ s, = -=_ = dv # c.v =. = s e -a .43 7_. o-

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K. e. e..v. ".2s 2._=.=_d a-...u. i .q \\ ne va :aus _ac..a.,_, s : _a o u,= -. n.. _ _..e _ _.. .s.e_..u.,.-...- ,. s_ ..O + .-.'<a .%.e

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si 1 3' " d - e a.. d a s =- -. _#..a. s a.-a. 7a.c.as am/.- - - _i.## _' _'. b. a. .. = a.". a.... ' 2 s-. a. -.7s.. uc'- # c 7s. .AC..# r. 2 .#... f -...e.....C a e. =. e.. " =. _#,.. s 'a a 3 1. =. s f o.n s # * * ' _#.y. 5 a = =. s. a-u _..'...". a. = p C.... #.. - C.="# e., d s__ - f . 3 4 .kt-ase .w.a. : a.s sa.,. ..w.e ifn.:. e A -, a.s, a s-4.s..eca.. a _ c. .4-a - o - 2a. -)

.3y the case, s.nce ne :.s tn.e :.nd.. v :. d ua_, wne,s respens.:_e 6

.3 . w.e,f,-*.,.i.tC a. 1.a.n-a .=..d " ads C..a. 3.d '#-a -. 5 W e #."..#.. - ,w k -a s 'ru- /-. 5 3 8 .a.r.Cr~e.7da-#C ns _#.7 i # g.". ^ # 'n _# - ^ Y e = _i _'. a. s O n s _# " _# ' # _# a. a. a - f 3 -"a C * *"* a - ' = w s * *"* a - .a Cng..w. a. C _..w. a.. ..w. .. S a, a...O n 5

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9 a*y.7#-=b'a .^ "..". # s C w* **. _# a s # ^., =. a .# a d a " =.' -^*#_ a." a. 0 u. w. 10 4.,. a,a. 3 , aws

..M a.' a.

ap p -.#.cac~ ' a., .#o'...d 3.. . ". =. ' n _#. =. d. 5.=.= s 11 C. _#....#..a i Cw-de. 7.'... i u a-. - C =..#. ' 5- -"a" 7*u-U*- 3u5-12 as-#.7g we'a=. =.a. g a - =. >-.#...' a..y -

...#.~. a _' =- #v..v.

"..a.. a.. C'.a.=#.-..an 3 3 s 13 Ke.me.7y ar.d..he s ="", a#..c= 5ey "a # _- '. - e a.,a'eya.d " y .k.a. 1 -r.- ss c. .7 a.x ass c." 0 day .a' e. a.. "- - a d ...' a. a---- 15 publicly a detailed form stating our vas investments, and 16 the like, so that the public can be sure that we're net doing 1 *

g..y. 4..m. -.e y,of.

.*%.e % a.nanCa. n ,:..%. a L ,4-n, a_ Ca . a,y .aa ea s .~.~w, am .T a a s -, . a .".a. .".a..=...=. " a.. s v.'. ". a. N.... s#-. a f 19 will act actually spend 60 days working, are allowed -- stil: 20 ..us ."#'a. a. -... #. c.' #... =. -a s "c '...i, k u. _#. #s a va..",.=b-breviated one, and it is confidential only. 5heuld the "c=- ~

-an f

..4 as-n %..ea._n s nw. e a. _a.n.3 s e a..a n n a, C.:... yneea.

u. p e.n,.a s t

s u. I 33 f p g-a..i.,- ..u.a. Cn.a ..u.a...g saya e.: w.-.. 3.: a a _: -. 5

a. s o _:,1. s.. : _-

t a .v _ _ l v -.. : - A n..n.a..,.s ..:.v _.9 _9 a.t. n %g w, k ' :---3..C . a.,,u .-a. s,..u. e.e. ..u. a. C..s. a. ua -e - .aa. a-g3 I i

i

.,,.,.a 3. -. a. d g..m.. _' a. d a.=. A % gk.i.:. fg ~.4.*.i. 2..-..m . $ a. a f l l l 1 I

.9.

7. ;.

1 6 =_. ..".c s e # c..s ~m ~., j c u w ".._# _' a_.vo u '. a. ..".a. ~. ~.~. # _# d a.... #. _= _' c n a_ s, 2 the small ones -- while you're here in this session. Sixty 3 days,s qu_:, a,_.,..- _._:me,

_._.r-ac__-

-e._xs, ,..d _:_m .,:s r-a a __ 4 probably no: .a C.eJ._ Ru.ni v.s ur.,Iv.

v.. s.

..,.a - a e...s . c s e _4 4.. _,], 2 m._ s 6 it seems to me, since we only have a 130 days to file our -o.r.. enda #cr.s. S.#..c a_ - ". av a. .i.a.d.ad.".=. _'. ava#'=b'a

^-

-e. 3 up to half time, I will expect c exceed the 60-day limit, 9 u.. . - h 4..,..t. -,r-.. s L,.._, _: x,_ _, y - u..a./ e ..n _ ,s e -..y sme _ _ u a o 't 10 . ination of how often the Cccmission meets, but it seems mes: 11 u.,._1:.ke_i7 *.k.a. 6 0 w = v, s, #..C ' '..d.4..-. - a_ a_ 'x=..da,.. '.. =. e'w 'ce.ea.- d d 3 a w 12 4,- eye-y n: s day, *. .h*n.k .".a.'- .".2" s e a.. s ".1 _# x' a _' v, -. 3 13 to me, 14 MR. Nn.. ALa-- : tnat, in a nutshel_,, are n.e various 15 Acts that govern the Commission. In additica, we're governec 16 by Civil Service regulations and GSA regulaticas with respect 1' ea: e ,f.oy-n3 -.: bu se.en a..d my..sa.# ".e C m.~ _# = - a 13 sioners for the days they serve and the like. I don' think 10

~ ' s c ar s _# c"-' a_ _' '/ -- -- u_

o exf1a_'.. a ..".o s e _#.. u" e,... N-The staff, Miss Randall and Mr. W.cilis, will make sure that .,1 you get these forms before you leave, and they're obviously s e _'.#-e x e ' a..a..~ ~. ]. k.. ave = .# a_ a_.'. #.. s-..k.a. _7 ' v a-e# v =... = va-" ~ .,3 , s. w.._,/ _ _2. d u_2 - -,, s = o n, .u..,,. r., 2. _4 ... 2.., .,u. 4 2 w a-v... CeJ._n. up.I .C. vre.4..v. ?. ..C L, _1 d _1_: s.._ a.,.. u.... .._w a .'5 s a s..# ., a..d .n' a_.. a n c ^, u. _= e-a_ c..".e. F. ... # s a~ _#...e s.. _2 x' = a-t a i t I t I

2o 1 Cany questions as you wis.n. 7.cn 3ata_ S s.2, . :ninx, Just d o. _ g e,_, _4 _ g _. _..w. :.., .vcused_

k. a.

..". _#.. s-ab.. a_ _"a__'. w e a k - + ' _ =_ _'

y ' _= c n

.ae_ 3 3 Oc <new,.and .nen give as mucn ce:al_, as we wish beycnd that. . nave one c.uest:.cn a w:.sn v. cu wou_, _, sc. ea

=> an

nas :.s

") the degree of independence of an independen: Presidential ti e. :as_ n. C ' =_ _=." _' y, w e _= = =_ =_ s - _=."., _' _# - ".. e d_ "..da_" < =_ c".. _# v a_ . d_ _ m v ~ by the President, and we reper: Oc the ? resident. 'de made s _ _, _ _,._.na cu,,, ._c- .enga.- ns .g___ ue fgu___. _..,_: s_._ n. _= _, _, y, 9 ..k.a ". a.. # nds..e - . a_ r ue s ~_ _#.. - s - =.# # c _= e. k ..ha.

. a s # d e.a..

s 10 if we will have permission Oc take the remarks he made this 11 qn. c.w. - s..cu... ye.. os. .c,4.,.g, _. s. y e.-] s _.. n c _.. _w .w 3 12 how seriously he will take the reccamendations. I won't at-13 te=p: to quote it, because I don't wan c miscucre the Pres-14 _i d e r.. c.' -.h a_ U n _# =_ d_ a es. 7 ' d _' _#.'<, a_ -, a_ -._# =- _#.. .#.. r k.e s a 15 rresident Oc include those in the minutes of our meeting as 16 . cur permanent objective. But-may I ask yeu, Rcr;, cnc.e part c: 1 the President appoints us, and clearly we have to operate 18 frc= that charter, how independent are we? i-19 MR. NATALIE: Dr. Kemeny, with your firs

comment, i

I 'O l it's my understanding that to be en the safe side, we regardec ~ 'I e. _ _ _ w w. e :... s _e d_ e... .."..# a-. c "... 4 * * - as a "a-*

^# cu"

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4.,f._ c _:

_w . 4 _, _, e _nC,. C.,_.s _..w... w... a ses_ e_s. ,a - -. a. ..f 1 l l 4 s _4 l i 15 a._; v a 3 v.v..r.a. v.. sw . n a..X fw.. .r w...

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.u.e .2,,.c., :,,,,, w- =.. a. s _: s_ a.n. _. ___ n gy ac-n, -....._; s. 2 w. 10 sion,.but as I think the Presiden; made plain in his remarks 11 this =crning, and certainly all the.eetings that we've had a: 12 4,. t.yn.:.,. ;;.c ga e _,,.., g: n g u p -Q . n _: a. ga.,., ..u. g. :. 4,. _; o -a 13 4.. .O. .n s Cw, ,4. ,,,n _4 m. _, 3.../ _.. d e p e.,,.d e.,.. C.. w.... ..6. a m -,., a .w 1'. " ". a. s _# d e.a.

a. van

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. =. s 3 " e.a.. ' a-

_4. ' - c,=__'_'=.d m = 15 the President's cccmittee. It's called the President's cccs-16 mittee because six months # rom new it's. Jing to hand the 1~ -t President a bcck that is going 0 represent its best judgment. IS au ,,,,m ,.,h,s da,, ,,w ,, a _., ,,,,, _,, K e.,..e n y C,.,.,.,,_.. s a, ,, n, ..w -- a.... w 19 guess is -- and it's completely independent. l i l 'O Ct.:A.? R.u a.ds <Tv.r.*.Iv.. m...a k. c t 6w. Cw .m.4.as_4,,..a sS. / m .n .a

v.. s.,

.J m.. v..s k a. a .m ~~ C e,s..d.i.: 2 7.0 q: a.v a..n..'<,q. r.,c e s u.a. C ~. :. s m.. ',.m u. e..u. a. w a t 33 ~ _ w.2 L,,. _:a. :. - -..C w. e .f .,.s.3.3.74an . a s g.:... m.C' y _.=. C w,j, a 2,.-w 3 m .w l q ~ n 2.,.y .s.e,. c.a. C. w u.m a g.i.e. J e - = _. ^ n s '. l v 25 ,g n.....u.c. :. y.,. v.u... q' A..z..r... e..n ...;.a. .= a. A.

.1 3 2 m *1-o -t natyeen 3 _he :g-:cSe *: - - - " -- s 1 %,5 %gae s ya, -a -- a ~ ~ -~ ~ ~ " - - - ~ -" o c. c _# n....f -..a- "m _i. c..a-2..y s a'.# wa... a w_.n6-3.

~

i - = a v s-3 ..h a. ,u-asa. c.' # # nd _d.. 3 .' a_ -. "..k.. n.. - a 3 .".a. 4. wa...a, n un' e d e =_.. 4.n a. d...s .#... ". _' a- ... =. = _.. . +. - = _ 4 ..a.. e a.. u" . a. ac.h _'.n 3 5 =--a.n'. any s..#c.".-=s w#.k..a_sye r...- "..r. w..h a_ v ' - =_ s. ".m- ".. a. s. 6 They can be structured wherever the Commission ' eels is the-best way to acccmplish the end. I should add one thing which : S forgo because the light's so bad up here. The Cc= mission at 9 the present time does not have subpcena pcwer. Legislation ...e C^ -'ssio. au^s ce..a 10

was, "s e.i n.. c d u - =_ d_

5 a a _4 _' _' a." '...- d 11 power, and it will allow the Cc= mission, should the need ..un _4 * * ' ues .".e e,a.-..a.n. o.# v'u's._#_e ua 12 a_#=e, -~ =.=_s 22 s -s 13

witnesses who might otherwise be obliged to take the Fift?

14 Amendment Oc avoid answering cuesticns before us. And we'll 15 have various traditional authorities that investigatory ccm-16 missions nor= ally do. 'de hope to have that legislation in l~ i place by cur next meeting sc we can ge Oc work, and star: 1S ..u. a. -,. s,ycns:.,e.-./CL.- ue s _:,s n,. a s 3.. 3 a _w..a. .ac.a. -a 3 3 19 C m ru.r S S r0!Lr.R..v a..sL. yes, s.. s. 20 CHAIRMAN K2MENY: Professor Taylor? COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: Oc you have any idea when the.: ~^ e.....-.e,. .a.n. ,,-;on ma,/ u 23 yR. a.Ls< ~. Ar -. _- h,,I,. .c : :.-..<_..c w. _ a_ s -,.,. -3_ .,4 a- =- 2 ...a. T. s. 4. =..".r u s e... -. ...e v, ".d e.-s. =.~.d ..".a. , e c o, ' a l . _# _ _# - a. = 4. w4 ,s.-- b a5 ' y -=.ka . ~a c w e a.k a, "su. "w.'. . k..#....k ~ y s- ~ -l

I anyone really kncws that. 2 C 2.A I.O..".A N K I M.I N Y : Yes, may I say en tha:? And as I 3 a:A av. o. C a. L,.*_.._ s.f w.m._? _1 -a r.

4. 4

2. _: _1 _7 y a_ s _ s. - A,. s y, -

.. w - =. A. ..w.a. .m -- 5 4 _h:3 g%.6cg f ue e.C p e A.: _. a p, 'c e n..s L. e ..k..:...'s. n ~ .. a m. _41.' f. - a .a .o c - - =.n ..".a. we.=

b.. a v a_ -k.a c we." '. e.#..-a.

..k.e

a..a. x.

..e =. #.". e ^' .a 6 the Commission. As we start taking restimony, I feel we have I to have that pcwer. 3 w a y._ .. a_ s_ a.. s.< ma.r v.g. yA..gw r.r.. .? a _wm_ q.. r _n. ay ."- s y 9 that le g:.:. stat cn as clean as poss:....cte. a ccetimes, for example, 10 ..b. a. s e c o r.." # - _# c n s _= ~ a. s a."w w-. # _' " '. p. a. d.' ~.."..".e ^. ^, n.# _' _# c. as j 11 ....g , s , aw s, s m..e

.*

s *. x*.a. p ~ _# ^
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"." ~...b.a. v. o la Gcvernment in the Sunshine Act, but those previsions of the p" =a.de a_'.A d v # s o. '/ r. e.

.. =. a.

.-. c .. =. - a.. "- _# - a, .b..a. cu'd-,a..- 14 mit us to have more frequent closed =eerings, are included in 15 that legislation. A judgment was made that we wanted c 16 operate open_,y anyhew, and there was no pc'n: 'n c_,u ering 1. up _.u.: s _, e g; s _,.,. : o n a.,.d pc s s ; u _y >,-, _,.f:..3

8. y p t, _.. :.. - - _c 3

'S o.s _3 _4 _. _,. mes w ... a _. .._4 w _ 3 _7._ , e c,,._ _, u. s e # ^ =. ---e.s en _..... _w

3...

19 concern, legitimate cause for concern, and woul". stall the .,0 legislation. .,1 C.u.a.*.R." A N '< _= v ?..T.'.

v. a. s.

'ia. he,ee va_ v, .~... -.5 .."..~ u .b. s ~~ 2...=._#."..- "+-.=..y

. x. a a,. _#

..a, #"s. .k.a. ..". a, by .o as.k_#n3 3 -e. 33 . rwa-s,cwe.s _..qa_ .,._a C, c _# ~..~. 'n _= s. '. '.. a v e, ~.. ". _ =. _ ~. . as ~ re- :--.a aa_a.. v.C. b..a. s v^.. '.

_w w e,. x,e d.e._. d.

- 6... 3 'c'.^*"=_'.=.."c.=~.=. C ".n".".~.* c~ ~ m..L= =. M.r =. "..= =..* L M.- =..., f a

3: as w 1 r. u-au.hc~.4- ~a ca. .~ ~..k. a.- e x a. e ". # 7a. =6e.c as.= o - ~~ e.. o star: and ass:.. stance? 3 MR. NA~ALIE: Yes, I will, because the charter is 4 s w. egna. a b 4 uc u's # n w"..a.. *.s fe-.. . ( "., ) .a..'a."s os -6 o 5 Departments c:- -nergy and nealth, -duca: on anc nes:are 4, 7 -n y:- A J ~.=aC 4 1 #..# a. s, s u' y *yC * *.*, .#' '.d s,

2 8

v a s, 4 na 4

-- di-- ..s -*6

- 6 staff, as ma'/ be necessarv..

The next cara6rac.h savs the 3 Cem # ssion may req' as any executive agency ic provide advice 3 assistance, and so on; does nor =ention staff. That does not 10 a an .u.a. ..u.e C,mm; s a ; n.,. s.<.=n - s,.= = .:-n.. _s ,.c ..a.. me 11 a.a.'/ e <ec" # va. age.c'/ -.1 .". a. 3 c v a..~.. a..... ...a. d ' #.# =..= = nc a la between a mandatory directive, which has been issued :c 00E 13 g td u.r.i, a..d

L"

. ". a a.d.C C, -.".d C n # a. ". "..#.. - O n u' a- *ne w* *f fC ".. '. #

2 6

. j 14 ,., g ..w. g ,,,4,,g. g s 4< 4 2, 0w... e,, a,,, C,. s.c,,,.. na.,, .-6 s. ..f 13 way of personnel, or r.ac a ::.es, or whatever we need,. rom 16 them. We have been assured, and I think Dr. Kemeny was as-16 sura.d .# - ~- a s o m e o.# ..".e e. c. e.s' a..".=... a. ' a- .=. -. =. = dv. ...a. '..a ' a-a 4 13 certainly been assured by the Faite 2.cus e, that ccr reques 19 will, to put it mildly, be very seriously hencred by any agency 00 that we desire to request. So we -- to the extent the Com- .- a ~ a... a- - a. s o...a. ' -. c.a..#~a-e-v#-a.s ,4 s#

r. be'#avas #.

--- - a y .,.s n. u. e < a C".. #. "< a. .s.y -5...C.f Jn ..u.e 30 y o..-. e n o, J - -.. C.h. r "= s~a, 23 + e.:..u.,. g ye. g...,..', -.q. a.q. c.:..u..; =- 4.u..a.-. a. , a..d..u. a- ....a... w .)*. J.. 4.w - ..u.e

h.. a. s J a a... r.

r. x a C....;. v a.

n.s. s a.. m ..as , 6 ',- ..S --6*-- a. - a 25 -a- -hs- -"m- -us-V.Cu =skad 22 -*' "-- - / * -3 6-* --t

-~ ua COMMISSIONER MCPHERSON: Yes, thank you. 1 2 MR. NATALII: Excuse T.e. Commissioner McPherson. 3 I've get cid habits Oc break here. 4 C".4.7.RF.a.N K_rv.._r'iv..

2.. a.# a. s 2 c ". ~. = v. _' m-. '.

3 COMMISSIONER TA? LOR: I wan: to be cuire clear abcut 4 one aspect of.he Federal Advisory Ccmmittee Act. Do I understand correctly that the minutes c# closed meetings have 3 Oc be made public, whatever their centent, once a year? 9 MR. NATALII: That's correct. But the minutes do 10 not have to, for examp_,e, 1:.. n. s. n ,is a::ernoon 1:. we,re _ s-11 cussing :.%.e persona, reputa ons c:. :nd;.v w,ua_ scientists, 12 we don't have to write that down in the minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER TAYLOR: I see. 14 MR. NATALIE: The minutes, though, have to reflect 15 the types of things that we discussed. 16 CHAIRMAN KEMENY: And presumably, in that case, 1~ could the minute be sist. l'J that the Cc= mission sc. ent three 13

5. urs d_# c".s s.i..-

.b.e c,'aa_' _#.'_' ca. # -..s v." a.. v_" e - c. =.... '.=. _' a 3 9 s Clentis ts,. 1 20 MR. NATALIE: If that's what ycu did, yes. .n C.e a..r o.v.bsi < v. e..slv.. =... sac. . - 6. -. s_. tl COMMISSIONER FIGFORD: Mr. Natalie, are there any i i l A.3 -ne me..s_._a_ .... o n ~.n' e C e-n~ _;.. :2 _c.e.ee. s w: . a. 3 _.- A. _, a.x .g.-_.a. _n ..a u,- -m .4 C ~~ u.. _: .. n.- 2.ns4 s. i a.3

v...%. sic...~a r.r r.

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s *y e C.

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n. u..u..

g he's going to have to send sc=ecne else to go over there : da -ha - - 10 11 C'W--- T' 4N '<rr'iv - m ~~# "c-s-- s -- de e- =va- = = - > - - - ~ - ~ that in the firs 50 days, either. 33 13 ~~g gg "rrr. e rs -u a ' -- -= a

-----~~~l :,,n":D:.:-,

u,- -,-,-n --~"- 1; Maybe that wasn't what you were asking, though. 15 CCl*."c*.O NT.R 3. 0 7. 0 RD. "w e '.'., .".4. a a...=..#...' =e a...s 16 to be relevant. Another possibili y: suppcse One of us, 1. ..** u g5 h..i.s

o.. a.#e s a 4 na '

"o c ". x', # =- ^".#a.ad -...'w....=._#^n"..'.#'. a-w IS see'. re,evan: to a substant:.ve :.ssue.Oe:cre In s vc==ission. 19 'ihat do we de about that? 20 MR. NATALII: Oh, I see. No, that is act This .,1 C.. ..:.a s : o n : a-c a.,. ada;ud:w..,. / c. L..,. : a C. uCd.f, a.c y-,,r-a .i = v ~.~ ..w.e O, '. ^. r. # b,.#. #.* na,

a..<.=

D ' 4,

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.nd. suspect.vcu w;_.

.ce.nundated a 3 k, o~,, s e.e.d _:.~.3. uo b, ..:... 2 w..a. -_4 .w... -f f nc a -._.t.n.. s o _w j .... _i 3

"onigi: 10n On you "aceiving that.

s 5 C0'#.'#.75S70'Ir3. :7 _ T. ^s.lD -. .c mayka. ~^"'d =w..e.-.e va" t 8

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us some =d_v_4c a_ as .s 'n w m. -. = - =. =" a' .#...# m. a _ 3 e tion > as opposed to wha: the law racuires. 3 SIR. vA A A.r.r.e .u.. .,4..x- ..w.,_.>=- a v. e...... 3-n.--.,, r w: a 9 .a..be we oL,,a, w.C.,. E e. .:as.:n. u s.., L., a a _: a -,, s o, u. u y an e,- Us,. ww. 10

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o'o v.# L's' y 4;udgmen a' .#=...-. s s.4.=. =." a u.=#da 7y ..i - e 11 -c a _e _, : w .g, C o.g e. .w.an _..w.....<,.... r,V.. s e.,... _ s e.,...s . w 12 .c d _:.,. s .a... c : o.. s._ v-w .s ?. 2.,/ n-ve av,e m-.a s.: no. 33 13 CC.FR'd.M Kr.'d..e..T.'.

v. a s.

' o y e. d ' a n-s a- .b. a. n 14 C -. 4 s #..,.. =_'so a .4.e =ey..p.#_=.=- - #.a. u - =_.. a_ - = ' 2 =n a. a 3 15 We clear _,y want to be -- most c:. Our mee:Ings, w :n the very 16 ,ew exceptions mentioned by counsel will be open, and these 1 ' - e ve y - m.4.=d ex ma,-#ons .e s o r.ee ' _' _' 2-7: -___=-.~..'v. "e -a. w-13 cperating where everybody can watch what we dc. de want :: 19 d_isc"so-a. sc~.e,o4.7. w.3.". -.'.a- --...# o. .'. a -"es-# n v.# 4 w' c n c

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.. v. a--.. 4 very hard to do it cnly in the presence cf the Public Informa-5

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7 d d-c"s =.7v -" .'.e w- ,u - = c a = -' -- -- - J ~~^ s w. -a a 6 substance of what we're talking abcut, because - think it " #I 7 wou'd be os 4..=o,f" -.#=~.a. .#c". us o a-f----- =- du #.ig ..q ar"'=- s f s -..acd. ~ wa... oc.ake v'a=", ".. a. c .".a - "..=..d., .n'a. =# =- m. f-9 Cc= mission work is over, I would icve :: see an absolutely 10 unani=ous conclus10n by this Comcission. 1: :n' a does not 11

happen, or some Commissioner s rongl? dissents frc= scme of 12 the recc==endations, there's no way one can forbid someone 1

in conscience to se.e cut a::er :n.e : ncanzs> : rem expressin 14 disagreements with it. Because ve tr.ied := make the dis-15 tinction while we're in the fact-finding and reco=nendarica 16 formulating stage, versus the fact that cur own consciences -{ l~ have to guide us after all of this is over. 18 Other questions := legal counsel? If act, let me '9 ask the other senior staff members whether they have remarks

0 they wish to make.

3ruce Lundin, you've had all since yester day--a little longer than that, since I interviewed you 'as: wee.<, but you came en board yesterday. ~4culd you like :: ma:: e .,3 sc...e s,. .4 v.2.. - r99 y.. ~u..a.. yg, c.u.., _; -.a.. v. a.n....,]. - r.,. a. i a5 L nn aca s 2,.n- ,- a..c.n. .m. :~, .. n,.<. a- .4c,. 2.e -u . -] ---, av - a -a.

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] '. _# _ e, _ _= f.. v, 2.- ~c..' =__ k 2 you everything abcur where I've been and what I've been dcingt. l 3

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'#_==_ _#., p t.'b ' _# _ a e - 1 _4 _- a_, - .-. s _# ^ =_ = _# ~_ ' o- ^ 3 privilege to serve as ycur sta#f direc Cr. I assure you I'm 9 ..d_'u' c.# ..h e .#...yo. _ _=..c a_ a..d s# -._#_#_# _.=.~.ca c.'. ".a. .ask.a'a. _3 10 you've given me,. not only to the President, but indeed :: our 11 ,,_4.,,- ,.,.,.,, gy .2., _,,,,,. 4,,s _.,.: : _. _,,:., d .c ,w.. ;

, co..4 c_ _

.. _ _ _.. a. 12 - _ 2., _ _ s_, .a..d _ '_ok c:,e sona_3 wt _ r... ..c _._ ._.e... 2._. 13 . a,,.a_ s o c_3ose..o <_.3 . _,,_ o,s g. _e _ s., ._.e _. .. _ y w _: _. g sa... n... f 14 .Ia _=.' _# a_ =.nd ".s. a'c. -a_..s bt.'.. ..c s. a'-. _# - ' ' _' _= _ _' '/ ~ _#..'. c u.- j 3 15 Chairman, with our Chairman, k. Kemeny. That's about all 16

w: .sh to say at th:..s ::.me, thanks.

1. C..A_.RMAN..,,: Thank you. .marcara ucrgensen, 4dR 18 what have you go: to tell us? 19 MS. JORGENSON: Not a great deal. Su: I would j us- O sa,f _ was we_3_4.h_.e. _., w.ea _w.

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1 informed, and I want you : knew that everyone on my staff 2 will always be accessible to all of you. Alsc, :'d like Oc 3 ask these people in the audience who wan to be on our mailinS 4 list te please sign up. I'll leave a table: in the back of 5 the recm, and as you leave, if you'd put your names and ad-6 dresses on it, I'll make sure you ge nc ices of every single I meeting directly from my office. 5 CEA!RMAN KIMINY: Thank you. New, le 's see. Abet: 9 our agenda. We're going Oc adjourn for lunch in a moment, 10 and then go in 0 executive session for this afterncen for the 11 purpcses stated by legal counsel. De we want : =ake an la anncuncement or our tentative agenda :or :ne res; cf the meet-13 ( ing, for Thursday and Friday? I think, Barbara, that would t 14 be very useful. While Barbara's getting her actes cu, wha: 15 we hope to have temorrow, the major par: of recorrew and par: 16 r: day morning, is to hear testimony frca -- nct really c: : 1 testimony, but, at the initial stage, advice and comments IS frca a group with varied backgrounds as c hcw they would 19 think the Commission ought to approach its task. And we intenc o to give all Commissioners a chance, they've all been told .1 jus: Oc ask them questions in the process. Barbara will reac ~ you the tentative agenda. The crder of the individuals is .,3 purely accidental, in that we had -- we had an extremely shcr: time. We' re delighted abou the number of people whc have .,5 ~ ge -a,-,s e..

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.gsaw pu::le as to where we could fi people in, so I wan:

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..n.. ..u. a. : ..y..e e.t.e.n.._,_9 n n 3 11 3, n. a C..:. n.x 3. n c,f., 'n a t 4 1 b e. :..g ..c C.: u...:. a. n : A a s..:..w. u...:. na 5 ~~ a u 12 W 77 .a. 17 30 we _1_, w.. 4,,, a u w., m_3.,..:,, g ,,a o:. w e ,.re r. r s .~ 13 ( 'de expect to adjourn for lunch arcund 12:00, and take an hour s 14 a..d a "..a '.#.#o r ' u."..."., a..d. . =_ c ^ n v e..a =...20 wd -". u. ... =. -'a 15 Cha=picn and Rick Cot:On, from iird. A: 2:30 ene of our C0=- 16 ciss:.cners, Commiss:.cner.ay. cr, w:.11 give us a, ecture on r .now a nuc., ear reactor actua.,:.,y works. ..nd One wac,e curpose c: . c 18 h:s,, ou. tha.:.an s d:.-,c _n.,,., ~ r -a a c,_ _,c..

n. n e n.-

,,s ..: - ~ u e 19 be able to understand. It will ti on a layman's level. .,9 C.t3.47".LM.UI K. Tv.?'Tv..

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r r; 1 opportunity for the Commissioners c ask them questions. .v e c a.. '. Se ab'a_ - ..=.k a. c,u e s. d e... s."......". a. .# _' ^ c., c.' ~.' u.~o =., a ,3

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=sk i 9 questions. Friday, the only persen we have en the agenda so 10 m, e p a.-....e... c. ..a_ _ g",. .#.4".=y .Jchn Deu-ocb.,." ~.r .k.a_ n -a 11 .g e... 3c:n3 r o--.., n _n .sO o'__'.c.k. 3- ~- 14 _e. r u s..a v a r,q u.._e.st v.. - s _.... _. =. 3, .,,_-.u.. c. c...- a a _..3 .sn- .g., 13 how they wish Oc finish, and obviously we'll wan: to determine .t, 32 e. --... -gan. es a,/ m u .o._.. _: n = c n._ s_o _,, e_, _. s.. e, _. / 30 u 3 1*. g--. ca,,.c.:.,.g 4,: rma-:on .:-n, ye u, -u. : - ,:.,....c., a c -.u., 8 .. e . o -- 16 we might be able := pin dcwn, I hope at least our nex two 1 '

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w. .y IS ..e, _,, .<nc.a.:. ,.2./ ... c -. n. w. .n.an ec. .e...: ..u.,. m_,se -- 19 HEW; I was asked by Secretary Califanc :: say that he had a0 hoped Oc be here perscnally, but it's physically impossible .q -3:m - dc .h,. ..w.e. ., u. s d, ..,. a. r _-..h. u... . - c, s. u.. a.... a

4.,

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k 3 r.u. A R.v.e. r p v.. e.stv.. <.c. .s-. s .a .= a,,. a .2.,. s-- .a n...x 4 .v.e. Jo s.m.r.e.,0 N - . was ~/ '..da.. s.= nd #. s- ..". a...b. a.. a. cr 5 were a couple c her ecple who wanted :c ma'<e state =ents to the e o Commission, but we weren't sure whether they themselves woul.d l i . ave time to dc :.: a this meeting, or whern.er they wou.o.. nave n S o ,e s ched.u.'.a.d. =. a..c ' a..=

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. '.... - =.. n 9 C v a..? v atI s v...r..sIv.. . n 2 '< y u-. .e .a../,-..w.e.- -,.,, s ~. 4 s 7 3 10 COMMISSIONER CAGGERTY: Yes, again en Friday. I: 11 ya s.,/...' a. s..=.d #."* 5 'fc L* we.a. 3 s -. 3- . 'f. o 3 ' '. '. v, L ..C. c. 12 Friday. 13 -u v u..A..u.asI v. r v.r.siv. Y.,. s. I 1*. v.5. V 0 RG7.'ISC N - ..-5"**- 5 15 COMMISSIONER H.a.GGERTY: Obviously, if -- And that 16 also, we were going Oc try Ic talk about future programs. II With that schedule, we surely aren't going to have any time is .cr =cre presenta: cns. 29 u.r v vv...;... e3,

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1.-2 4 a .u .a n j 4 executive sessien, counsel, as long as we publicly announce 5 .. a w.TWo.A S. m 6 v.'J...t.'ATAL.?_;. V. a. a n', 7 .b.:.c.x', k a. a _s.,s e r f 2 2 -.n o. I there's going to be discussion about why we think these people a 5 a - a. a p e. n.n e:f.-a a., oc - ~..%. :.,..'z ~..%. a. t. .g _. %. _: _ u. p. zt ~..u.c m..~.y ye 7 2 9 already have to cicse the session. Or we can discuss it in 10 public if you like. 11 r u..n, _r.o u c{ q..u..r.y. v.. -e, .e.. _.n.x.. s.s. .. _. _,,,/ m. ,n3 v f-12 time. I hope to adjourn prc=ptly for lunch, that we have 13 plenty of time this afterncon, so we can discuss c,uesticas 14 like this, and then be bound, of course, as decisions are 15 =ade. Sur these people will testify very publiciv, so clear-16 ly als, or those decisions wil. become pub.. c in:cr:ation. 1 ' Su .'..sv.#=" .=. s w e a. =. = _.< _#.. - a".c u. ..h a. =.~f c.-,,. #_ _=.. =... a. s o-c# 3 IS c.eco.le, we could do that in executive session. 19 COMMISSI0 TIER PETERSON: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't c c =- O ...e n.. _a..g .u.,. ap p -n p. ; a. a.,.e s n.a..u..ose on., ,:s-.. .r. r-2 .,1 ...... 1 2,d2 . s., w 5-* 33 .p ryv... .Mc, ~..". a. ' s-W.b..= *. ~'*. 8. _' 4' _#.". ~ c' 3' C l.'.'. b..n_- J u g{ -u9 y S . f.., .w g. 33 s ~ 4 .? b..e g g - b..a.. ge g 7.*. hayg 2 ..h. a.". C =. ~.* d s~ w"'

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.i 1 y.S. J O R G E N S O 'f : May ask you cne nore housekeeping 2 ..u. :, -, 3 c.u s r R.v.A.,i <.=.v.:.tv. ..a

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..= x a n : a-4 ques tion. 5 MS. JORGE'ISON: Oh, I'm sorry. 6 C0!"-.7 C C "...I= R. .v a.2..X =. a / e w e - =.," a. s. =. d -"k.#--#cn a oa- ~ of written testimony frca any of those who wi'1 be coming S wwe.v.,. .a. 9 MS. JORGENSON: Tomorrcw? 10 CCMMaaS 0Nr.R Mr.xK, s : y.es. l 11 c c,- v 33I K v.. sfv.. ea =e a,. v,.,.,.,., c., .,,,., a v,. ..-.s l 13 \\

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13 asked them even :.n those cases c give us a summary pub:. c-14 ly. Of course, we will have comple e transcric.t of everv.- 15 th. ng they say, and obv'. ously a.1 suc.n transcripts will be 16 ava:.lable to Commissioners, l I 1. c' 0.v u.r e S ?. 0 N ; 3 v.A.c,K' s

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.s .w I all, practically, but we can find a scre expediticus process 2 .w -v. ...e....__-. 3 COMMISSIONER MC3RI7E: These -- If I may, these 4 ~ nu ,.s o.;..qe me...:..6s y___ e -s s _ - y g-e as _. g....- n 5 course to each = ember of the C0= mission. Is that ccrrect? 6 CHAIRMAN KEMINY: Absciutely, yes. And, of course, I any additional caterials -- I mean, the staff works for the a .. e. a. :v-., _.. / c..q,. -.. a.,. ,_, a- __u:,:.3, ., a n.y. c-

ssian.

t m 9 ground or whatno: -- that the CO: mission rec,uests as a Cc=- 10 miss On obv ously will be sent 0 the Cc==1ss On. - Just 11 tried Oc =ake ac prejudgments as to what kind of materials la you want to have or in what form you wisa Oc have And 13 that's certainly scce:hing en which we need advice from all 14 of you. I mean, you have :0 make the decision. Barbara, yot 15 have sece:hing else? 16 MS. JORGENSON: The only thing I wanted to le: 1~ those people in the audience knew is that we are just about IS to =cve into permanent or::ces. An not :y you or wnere 19 these offices are and how you can get in touch with us. Su ao ~ that won't be till sometime next week. 3, a CHAIRMAN KEMENY: Very goed. May I just close by ~' saying that the handful of staff we have werked agains al-a3 most incredible cdds, with no time at all, sc I really think 34 ~ it's amazing that we're as "ar as we are. I declare the oper, .,5 -.....e g - - - -../ s,. s o ; o n c n.. c,,.. e. a re,, r ,-,.. c n, .,. m s n 3-

+ 2 l' in:0, executive session. And :c=crrow at 9:30 in the scrning, 2 we will have the next c;en session of the Commission, in this 3 particular recm. This session is adjeurned. 4 UEnereupon at 11:'40 A.M. the session was adjourned as des-5 cribed above.) 6 t 9 10 11 1., e 13 l 14 15 16 1e 8 J 18 19 20 i 11 es 23 .t e .} s p. -g

o.r..en. Rm. e.e. e c.ro,. r r Ae. r .._u This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the i in the matter of: PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON TEE ACCIDENT Am m.u. n.e./. .w..r.r e. r- .sm 4 s .3 au DOCKET NUMBER: LOCATION: WASHINGTON, D.C. HEARING DATE: APRIL 25, 1979 were held as herein ac.o. ears, and that this is the orie-inal transcript thereof for the file of the Department or Commission. M g V N m_ Reporter National Reporting Co., Inc. 2009 N. luth Street Arlington, '/A 22201 I i l l i I}}

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