ML19294B947
| ML19294B947 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 02/22/1980 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8003060439 | |
| Download: ML19294B947 (56) | |
Text
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UNITED STATES N UCLE AR REG UL ATO RY COMMISSION in the matter of:
CONTINEATION OF BRIEFING OF ACTION PLAN Place:
Washington, D. C.
DGte:
February 22, 1980 PQges:
1 - 56 INTUtNAT:CNAL VrasAT1M RIPenTras. INC.
6 SCUTH CAPT.L"t s.ctn.. S. W. SUITE 107 WASHINNN. Q. C. 2002 222.te d. m 8 0 0 3 0 00 4 3 C/
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PAGE NC.
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1 2
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 3
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4
5
_____________________________________x 6
In the Matter of:
7 CONTINUATION OF BRIEFING 8
ON ACTION PLAN 9
_____________________________________x to 11 Cocsission Conference Room
(
12 Room 1130 13 1717 H Street, N.W.
14 l
Washington, D.
C.
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16 Friday, February 22, 1980 i
17 The Commission cet, pursuant to notice, for l
18 presentation of the above-entitled matter, at 3:00 p.m.,
John F. Ahearn2, Chairman of the Commissionf presiding.
39 BEFORE:
.to 21 l
JOHN F. AHEARNE, Chairman of the Commission i
22 JOSEPH HENDRIE, Cocsissioner 23 24 l
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I Iwromaanow. Vmaanns.8tpoortps, le me sarne cam:n. rrwer*. t v. surft ior wL-Ch 3. J.,
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1 PROCEEDINGS
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2 CHAIPMAN AHEARNE: We continue the ongoing saga l
l 3
of the action plan.
l 4
Mr. O' Reilly has probably managed to have Roger i
5 Mattson's car treak down so he would have the opportunity f
6 to tell a correct way of looking at this.
l I think last time we pleaded Section 2, at least I l
7
'.11 -- not hearing any objection -- and now we will go on 8
to Section 3.
9 i
Jim, J e, have at it.
10 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Uait until I find the i
page.
(
i Upward and onward.
-3 The emergency preparedness tasks, starting out I
with the licensee, short-term measures, there are a number 12 of things in those already nominally approved action plans, l
16 numbers one and two, that have to do with coordination, that 17 j
I will remark on as we 'go past these.
i 18 First of all, I think there are some efforts 19 underway on the industry side that we will have to keep fi coordinated with, and I trust that is a feature of the staff
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effort.
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Secondly, if I can find the right oages, we are f
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requiring licensees to establish a whole array of control l
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l centers, support centers, and so on, these under Item 2, l
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the support facilities.
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One of them is a technical support center separate l
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from, but in close proximity to, the control rocm, an onsite operational s,~.L center and a near-site emergency opera-l 3
e 1
tion center.
4 CHAI2 MAN AHEARNE: I wonder if someone could talk
-3 through what the relation of that --
i i
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I think it would be a 7
summary elucidation on that and I would comment as we go g
forward that I hope that in the course.of proliferating g
control locations we are making a net advance for order, l
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safety, and the general public good and not retrograding.
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The tech support center is presumably the place 12 I
where the station manager goes.
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MR. O'REILLY:
That is correct.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I wonder if you could describe i
15 the relationship of the tech support center, the onsite 16 I
support center, and the offsite support center?
17 i.
MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
The tech support center and 18 i
the cpe_mticnal support center, the reason for that was pri-19 marily to keep a lot of people out of the control rocm.
J3 20 fi (Laughter.]
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fi.l MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Okay, let me put it -- the ocera-I ad 2
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tional is a gross misnomer and is primarily an assembly area 5
23 -
23l for the people like the auxiliary operators.
A place fo" 24 l
l them to be located.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: But it will be provided with i
2 dedicated communications?
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3 MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Communications with the control l
4 room.
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5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: So that is all it really is, you 6
are saying, a staging area?
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7 MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
A staging area.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: And people can communicate?
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MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
That is correct, for support 10 personnel.
11 The technical support center, on the other hand --
I 12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What are the occupancy l
13 standards?
MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
No, sir, there are no occupancy 14 standards for the operation.
As COMMISSICNER HENDRIE:
So if things got a little 16 salty in an incident, you might find yourself run out of the 77 op center?
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MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Yes, sir.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: The primary purposes is in the
,0 middle. of an accident that you are pulling a lot of people 22 iel f *. s in and --
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MR. O ' REILLY :
We have a place that is predesignated 5.
23 l lff so they all know where to go, that is the station area, onsite 24 Il l
Iy 25 l support area.
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1 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE : How about the tech portions?
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2 MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Even the tech portion, on the i
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other hand, is a center, a location in the long-term upgrade l
4 will have ability standards similar to the control room and l
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that is a location which will have, as it says here, eventually i 6
capability of accessing information from the control room l
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and it is a backup.
It is a backup, a backup center, a loca-g tion where tech people, the managers and so forth, the g
people who would provide backup support to the people in the i
I control room.
10 l
i CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Is it a control room?
l yy MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
No, sir.
j 17 i
MR.-O'REILLY:
Itisadatareceiving--theengineers!
3 3
I would go there, analyze problems and the direct communication --
4 I
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: What is the difference between is.
I the character of information as transmitted to that and the i
character of information transmitted,to the emergency opera-
,.7 tions center, the same?
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MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Even they probably will be the same.
]3 20 1 8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE :
Is it clear that the need
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and is it wise to orovide for both the so-called technical 1
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support center and the offsite energency emergency ops place?
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i Looks to me -- is it clear that vou wouldn' t be 6
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better running the emergency either from the control room or l
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1 if there is good reason to get out of that, to be able to f
2 pull out to the near-site emergency operation center?
3 MR. MINNERS:
The philosophy, Dr. Hendrie, was l
1 4
to have something to be easier for offsite people to get 5
to, like if you want State and local people to be able to l
1 6
come to some center.
That was the purpose of the emergency 7
operation center.
3 You have enough information to make decisions to i
9 affect people offsite, evacuation, and things like that, 10 yet not everything to go through the process of getting 11 I into the control room.
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12 CHAIR W AHEARNE: The purpose of the center is to 13 keep the outisde people out of the control room.
14 MR. MINNERS:
Plus at Three Mile, it was difficult 13 getting onsite.
It is not easy to get onsite.
l 16 MR. O ' REILLY :
I didn ' t get that.
i 17 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I can see a good reason gg for the offiste place.
I yg What is not so clear to me is your coming to the 1;
20 control, to the tech support center, to the offsitt operations
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2, enter that you really needed the tech support center as a l
II fle separate location.
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MR. MINNERS :
The intent is not to exclude from the 5:
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si 2,,;i control if needed.
But if not needed, you want some place l
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for them to go and also have a dedicated facility where tech t
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1 people can sit and be quiet and sit down and do something, go j
2 and not be disturbed by the alarms or the hussle-bussle that 3
will be going on in the control room, and also not be able l
4 to disturb the operators as they are taking whatever action 5
they are taking, and you can have discussions, and the usual hussle-bussle of your own when you are doing some evaluation j
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- stuff, 7
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The thought was that there were separate functions 8
and they needed separate places to do those functions, and 9
you needed an interaction, but not interference.
,.0 CCMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
The plant status, why f
not at every offsite centor?
MR. O'REILLY:
It was felt they would still have access and control to the people and better infer =a'.on and current information, and they wouldhave access to the plants.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: The plant status displays you 16 I
have in mind for the tech support center are also ava41-17 j
able in the control room?
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MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Yes, sir.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: And you wouldn't see everything
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I at this tech support center more information?
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MR. O'REILLY:
There is some thought being given j
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in the succort center where they will have additional tapes l
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problems and other conditions that may have contributed to l
2 some accident.
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3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Now, I couldn't find any resources 4
estimate for the licenses for these things.
Where can I l
5 find that?
6 MR. STELLO:
Let me nake one comment with respect l
7 to the control room, The onsite center and the offsite i
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g center that I think need to cet some attention.
That..is going I
g to be the question of who's in charge.
10 People in the control room are going to be turn-11 ing off and on valves.
They are going to take their instruc-12 tions from the onsite tech center or the of'. site.
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'3 The concern that keeps popping in and out for i
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me, and I am not sure which way I come down, is to make sure 1,,
i 15 there is a clear understanding that you do have three places where the situation is being evaluated.
Are you going to con-f 16 fuse lines of authority in directing the activities?
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7 I think this fact that you have that confusion j
s=eaks two olaces rather than three.
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19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Wouldn't it depend on -- wouldn't V:
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If the lines of authority be spelled out in the procedures in 3
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fjg the sense of individuals or not necessarily by name, but by
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g i33 function and where that person was would be where the line of 5I 23 '
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authority was?
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MR. STELLO:
Well, you have the shift supervisor, 2
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thu plant super, and the vice president of ocerations.
2 The shift supervisor in the control room, the lI 3
plant manager, the onsite and the vice president in the offsite.'
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They all have authority.
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5 CHAIMiAN AHEARNE: But isn't that a chain so that j
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the vice president can override the other two?
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7 MR. STELLO:
Well, one he could and can.
You I
g want him to?
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARN:
If you were in the control room, 10 he could, wouldn' t he?
11 MR. STELLO:
All I am saying is this is one area l
12 of the centers that concerns me, that I thought I would j
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. express it to you, the thought as well.
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I COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What kind of view do you 4
get from licensees?
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I MR. STELLO:
I haven't had any real conversation except with these.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Jim, you had that.
I MR. O ' REI LLY :
I was at some of the seminars they held, and I think the licensees scrt of accept this, and they
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did not seem to have a particular problem.
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f a. g In effect, they come pretty close to this -- the l i e, 22
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problem would be in the design and the qualifications of the i3 I
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expenditure of resources.
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I believe that there is no basic technical argu-3 ment against it.
It seems, I think they feel it makes sense.
4 They have no problem, obviously, with the offsite 5
find.
They basically recognize that need.
The onsite l
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6 one, they recognize a lot of people want to get there and 7
they are concerned with the amount of people running in the 8
control room and we have insisted on limiting the access to i
9 the control room and the only access to the other area --
l 10 and that area would have to -.so very obviously,.we have i
11 to have complete data, and-so forth --
f 12 CHAIR WI AHEARNE: Did you find a resource?
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13 MR. HIGGENBORTHAM:
Even the resource for the sup-14 port centers are on page 3 (all-10.
MR. O'REILLY.
There is the upgrading of l
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emergency support.
The other source is missing, Mr. Hendrie
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noted, and chey were administrative.
It is an oversight.
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COMG :IONER HENDRIE:
I remember, vou see, what
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sort of arrangements licensees might propose.
It seems to me f *. y that there are various control room arrangements and that 1:
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of them are set un so it is verv hard to take verv many people
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25 that back up to support offices in such a way that you can 1
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handle a large number of people i= mediately adjacent to and i
2 with the headquarters of the effort in the control room.
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3 I think in trying to implement these support center con-i 4
cepts on a case-by-case basis, that the staff ought not to 3
get itself convinced that it has in mind the ideal model j
t 6l for everybody in every circumstance, and they should only be 7
done one way.
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There is an additional set of things you have 9
already touched on them, John, and that has to do with the 10 data link, our data link and their data link.
3; Now, if I draw a large circle and say that that
'2 represents the informaticn that you need to run the plant, that is the control room information, okay.
3 3 1
And now, I draw another circle which falls, which 4
is smaller and falls largely within the first one, but has
,..s a lap that goes outside.
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That is a piece of information that the onsite 2,
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technical support center needs, that is it needs key informa-18 tion about the plant and also needs some stuff outside in ll terms of monitoring information stuff.
Okay?
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', l The NRC data link needs then are a piece of that 11 i
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onsite technical support center, sone of the offsite stuf f, I
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!If some of the key offsite stuff.
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down on some of the data link characteristics because it would I
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really be much more efficient if we got people set up so that j
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we could come out of their technical support centers so l
2 that all of the technical support centers ended up feeding it, 3
everything a common set of equipment and sof tware to feed the j
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NRC data link, and maybe we should call it NRC/ vendor data
.s link because I have high hopes that the major vendors wil' l
6 take into their, you know -- will take a line into their j
7 8
allow licensees to hook up 9
- from the control rocm to the tech support center, can any individual way that is handy for the 10 individual licensee, then you are going to end up with a 11 set of tech support centers which have a diversity of l
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equipment and software approach as there are in the control 13 room themselves, and from our standpoint, it would be highly 14 desirable if those tech support center data display opera-l tions were of a standard type, and they have got a standard 16 i interface to get to every plant.
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t-f It would be a considerable help, I think.
18 As a matter of fact, I think it would be a help 19 l
for them, too.
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MR. STELLO:
What we hope to be able to do is y:I 21 set some standard way which the data will come up to the i
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control rocm in terms of a milivolt means, X pounds pressure 23
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degrees Fahrenheit, and that would be transmitted to our i
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centers as well as theirs.
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That kind of standardization we are looking for i
2 right now.
We have not come down to the display.
We think 1
3 that they have a need for a lot more display, the number of I
4 standards to be physically displayed.
We are thinking right j
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now, as it very well could and will be different.
But in I
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terms of the processing of the data and assuring that at 7
least every center has the same amount out as a kind of a --
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even that will have to have some flexibility because they j
g don't all have the same kind of computers and the same kind l
10 f equipment coming into computers.
i In fact, not a11 plants have computers, so there i
11 will have to be some flexibility on that end.
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erms of the parameters, we hope t.Sey wil.
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i come out.
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At the moment we have given little thought to trying !
,.As to standardize displays.
MR. O'REILLY:
In some of our discussions on con-trol designs and this kind of displays, this kind of approach 9
has been discussed with the NRR.
19 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I remember vou cull in who
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if in research~has that data link.
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MR. STELLO:
But our staff officer, Stan Vasit -- I l
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remember you gave him a chance to cet his two cents in as i
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I would be inclined toward the 3 I 25 ;
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14 hn jn13 standardization of displays.
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MR. O'REILLY:
Yes, sir.
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MR. STELLO; We are trying to set a minimum of l
3 data.
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What we do needs a standard 5
I interface for us to come into and the place to get it is 6
for them to go from the control room to the tech support center j 7
l in a manner which leaves the tech support standardized and 8
compatible with the NRC data link.
9 MR. STELLO:
That?s Stan's doing that they are working 10 on now.
11 i'
That part has already been done.
12 COMMISSIGNER HENDRIE:
I must say, we have said l
13 they must have info'rmation available in the offsite emergency l
14 op center, and I~ don't know what all they are going to want
~5 there, but it seems to me if they go past the NRC 100 16 parameter, we are talking about they are getting beyond a
- 7 reasonable point.
'8 I would kind of hope people would settle down and
'9 divide off and just be standard packages all over, t
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-2 CHAIRMAN.:AHEARNE: Did you intend at any time to I:I s
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l,l have the of fsite be a control center?
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MR. O'REILLY:
That was not the intent.
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23 COMMISSIONER HENDR7"-
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can't be a control center
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J Bethesda.
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1 CHAIRMAN AHEARN:
I John, I wasn't trying to amend 2
it.
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MR. O'REILLY:
I lation of controls, and so forth?By control, I ass I
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:No, but we could very i
6 well in moving the regional director a d n
a team to an incident might very well want to 7
g NRC standpoint.
transfer control from an l
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
l Oh, sure.
I 10 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
yy j of that center.
And then they would work out t
73 CHAIRMAN'AHEARN:
I By the description of that, i
had thought that probably was where I
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' 4 MR. O'REILLY:
t That is where he would go.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Yes. All right.
t 16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
- Now, I have scent extensive
.i time on previously approved matter 17 I 1
s, but still stick me.
i would be,a lot of money in this stuff There :
, too, l
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'~.. O ' REILLY :
i That is right.
i 20 ;
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
going into that study.
And a lot of engineering time i
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22 f The long-term one is the thyroid bu i ij s ness, and I l
don't know, I guess so.
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i 24 CHAIRMAN.AHEARNE:
l I think so.
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i 254 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You going to make -it by 1
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'l arch '81 to get cleared away on the thyroid date?
16 I
MP HIGGENBOTHAM:
The study, we should receive 2
a study, a written study in March.
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3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Well, they have already sent us 4
a study.
MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
They have already finished a f
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study, the staff has been briefed and waiting for their report. l l
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At that time, there will be some paperwork come 8
forward to you on both the worker and the stop-bying for the 9
public.
10 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes, I guess we need to.
i 11 I must say -- well, it is a good idea to have l
12 the things onhand.
It strikes me we are likely to have some l
13 trouble in getting HEW, and so on, to settle down, and I think l
14 they have to, don't they have to establish some sort of -- what?i l
13 Dose -
you know how much to take and when to take it, and t
16 that then is the federally-approved guidance?
17 '
MR. HIGGEN30 THAM:
HEW has published guides --
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18 FDA has published public guides on use of potasium iodine.
It's 19 been.on't now'for quite a while, and the work that is being j;
20 done by NRR's in coordination with FDA and other people.
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21 f COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
A-2, I didn't find much to l
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{-l 22 explain about and in due time we ought to get these improved
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emergency preparedness measures incorporated in the rules, fis l
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and so on.
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1 MR. BICKWIT:
Excuse me -- A-2, what is the present 2
thinking about when there will be criteria upgrading criteria j
3 for State and local clants?
i 4
MR. HIGGENBOTEAM:
This is A-22, development and l
5 guidance.
6 That has been under that one description there, t
7 the work with FEMA, the criteria is published in the Federal 8
Register and is out for comment and review.
9 MR. BICK'4IT :
I see.
10 MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
For both State and local plants i
11 and licensees.
j 12 MR. BICKWIT:
What is the thinking about whether 13 there will be a rulemaking on that subject matter?
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14 MR. HIGGENBOTEAM:
The plan on it is now after they r
i 13 get the comments on it, after it has been published, the I
16 comment period has been passed, how to go about promulgating f
7 those with official requirements.
3 I,
g CHAIRMMI AHEARNE: It might depend somewhat, wouldn't it, on the net result of the FEMA, RC?
,9 MR. BICKWIT:
It might, in addition to the general g,
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question, I guess what I am concerned about is that there 2 *.,
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bill that says within six months from enactment, we will have 43 '
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,f a rule upgrading Itate and local plan --
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Clearly that when it becomes the p
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1 law, we will do by rule.
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2 MR. BICKWIT:
I understand that, but we are not i
3 committed to a rule.
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Buu we are well along in the develop:,r f
5 ment of all the information that would be required in the 6
process to -- I don't think would be a major step --
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7 MR. HIGGENBOTHAM.
No, we say in the discussion here 8
on page A2-3, that the final agency guidance -> on the regula-tion.
9 MR. BICKWIT: I see that.
10 l So, the current thinking is if you went to rule-l making when would it be possible to get the rule problem?
.2 MR. HIGGENBOTHAM.
I don' t think it would take much tir.e after the comment period is passed, and let's see, l
14 t
it was published February 13, and I don't recall how long the I
,..a comment was, 90 days.
i CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: It is necessary.
,,e/
MR. BICKWIT:
Good.
13 I
I MR. STELLO:
Wouldn't that be a FEMA rule, though?
19 y
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: That is what I meant.
1:
20 i
MR. BICKWIT:
The current law would be an NRC rule.
28-2.
11 3g CHAIRMAN JAHEARNE: But in the direction we are going, j 3:
22 !
-l.
I i
i jEl it would end up being a FEMA rule.
i 35 23
{!!
The way we are right now, Vic, it would have to I'
24 l be an NRC rule which FEMA applied.
It would be an NRC rule l
El
,5l f
19 i
which FEMA applied in providing to NRC and then it would be 3
i t
2 binding on NRC.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Yes.
4 Is that sufficiently clear?
5 (Laughter.]
MR. BICKWIT:
That is why maybe there ought to be l
6 t
a change in the law.
7 MR. STELLO:
I guess that is what I was leading g
un to.
9 FEMA has a responsibility, maybe get a rule on it, but it is also their responsibility.
I 11 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: But that is only if the law is
[
changed, and the current law --
MR. BICKWIT:
We have suggested something along f
14 those lines with respect to the reorganization plan.
15 s
MR. DIRCKS:
There isn't any legislation pro-16 posed or being proposed.
,/
i MR. BICKWIT:
We have proposed to CM3 that it 13 I
be included in the President's reorganization plan.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I guess one version never made j;
20 ij it into the final authorization bill.
3 21 There was one version that did have that transfer i
ad l
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i,
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to FEMA.
f di 23 !
fjI l
MR. BICKWIT:
It is not being seriously considered 24 r ia in the conference.
l bI 25 '
+
H
20 l
i l
MR. DIRCKS: Sometimes it is easier to change the I
law to get a rule passed.
l t
i CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: And then there are times it is l
easier to get a rule passed.
MR. BICKWIT:
Apparently the administration is 3
s I
opposed to the transfer.
They have made that view snown O
in the conference.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Ch.
8 i
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Opposed to the transfer of l
9 what?
10 MR. BICKWIT:
Of authority to make binding require-11 ments on the licensing process with respect to State and 12 local governcent activity, the transferring of that to 13 i
I FEMA.
Presently FEMA has not got that authority.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Good.
I 15 Is it FEMA's position when you say the admini-16 stration?
i 17 MR. BICKWIT:
I don't know.
18 MS. ARON:
I have inquired what authority does 19 FEMA have?
1:
20
!j MR. BICKWIT:
FEMA has no authority to bind the C g 23 21 f8k NRC licensing process.
a I~$
4
- i MS. ARON
Because this has implication for Sequoyah?.
gu8 5
23 3g CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: No, we have concluded that we i
i:di
-((
24 l require certain things to be done and one of the things we iI 25 are requiring is that FEMA to advise us that they find the i
i e
21 6
l' 1
l emergency plan acceptable, but we are the ones who have to issue the license, and it is our requirement.
3 I
MR. BICKWIT:
I am not sure that we have set it.
i 4
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Well, that is the actual taking.
l 5
MR. BICKWIT:
I am not sure that we have to 6
i either under the law or under anything that we have said.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Oh, not under the law.
I 8
Now, there is a potential that the final emergency 9
plan rule may end up being worded something like that, that i
10 recall was one of the posibilities the way it was phrased.
11 MR. BICKWIT:
And I think I have pointed out I 12 am not sure it could legally read that wav.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Yes.
All right.
14 Now, having muddied up that subject a little bit.
t 15 MR. DIRCKS:
If we 're confused, how about the people 16l' on the outside.
17 CHAIR N AHEARNE: Well, at least or in my view,
}
18 it is clear in my view -- I want FEMA to say the emergency 19 plan is adequate and the criteria are the ones we jointly
};
20,
developed with them, and if they do not say it is adequate, t2 l
- I 21 I would conclude it is not ada.quate.
It is very clear to me.
11
-e.
jy!
22 ll MR. DIRCKS:
It is clear to FEMA.
i*i i
jg 23 !
MR. BICKWIT:
It is not clear that cosition
'tn s
24 l is legal, f
11 F
jI 23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: It is not clear to some c.eco.le.
I l
t t
22 I
1 MR. BICKWIT:
That is what I am saying.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Raising that issue again?
i 3
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I must say when we started I
i 4
down this track sometime ano, as I have commented before, John 3
Macy and I agreed FEMA ought to take a -- now that it was 6
created, ought to begin to take a lead role in these energency l
plan matters for these nuclear facilities and shook hands on i
7 that proposition.
g 9
It sure as hell was not from my understanding that as soon as we published the new criteria they were going to
,20 5
become instantaneously applicable to everybody down the line.
f 1
I talked about some reasonable phasing in of i'
9 some requirements, and I thought I was hearing the same
.,i kind of things back up until -- when was it -- a week ago?
-I 14 CHAIRMAF AHEARNE: February 10.
,,as COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
February 11 when FEMA decided 16 i
to go in other directions.
I don't know, John, I have lost 17 a good deal of the enthusiasm I once had for a strong FEMA 18 role in this process.
19 I am not sure I will be fully aboard with you when V:
20 1
l y[
I come down to the issues.
21 l1 l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: All right.
a i
1:s
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j i $ g.
f'
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
How about A-3?
1 d! I
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MR. STELLO:
That is beautiful.
I 24 I
(Laughter.]
I 13 25 t
23 l
MR. 0;REILLY; I support that view.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I take one exception in there 3
l to one item called radios.
4 I
MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Yes, sir.
j 5
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: The way it is written in here is 6
that these will be done, the radio equipment will be avail-7 I
able by September 1980, the first systen will be obtained --
j 8
t I don't think that is right, is l
2.s 9
MR. O'REILLY:
You are talking on the time schedule?
10
{
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Yes.
33 MR. DIRCKS:
This is the first time I heard of it.
3o CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I thought that was something that 13 was deferred that was one of the items raised for repro-I 14 gramming.
Isn't.that right, Vic?
.13 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Yes, so I don' t think at least, l
17 the pacing that's listed here is right.
i 13 MR. O'REILLY:
I was unaware it was reprogrammed 19 from the action point.
];
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: It is not in the budget to have a
23-21 it done, it had to be reprogrammed in.
Ii:.l i
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22 MR. STELLO:
Ne are working it in as a supplemental.
l
- s. -
jl^I i
22,
CHAIR m AHEARNE: Or reprogramming.
75.
I i
24 l XR. STELLO:
I said it right.
The only way you are 8
l EI
'5.
going to get it richt is we are not going to have a i
24 i
1 half million dollars for retooling.
{
i 2
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
As a matter of fact, we i
3 may have trouble with funding for a lot of other things 3
4 with some of your friends over there.
3 John, have you ever thought of going on piecework, I
6 the Appropriations Committee, you know operating license, 7
it would be worth $25 million, you know, or -- okay.
f g
We have talked about the data link in the past.
I don't have any more.
I guess any complaints to present at 3
g this time.
10 i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: The dollars that you're showing i
11 in here tend to be more; I find. the dollars were available, 4
I suppose, to the dollars you submit in here.
,1 i
For example, 3A-3-6, where you talk about the resource's on this particular study, that is the money that is available
, s, a
right now?
f 16 f'
MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
The $150,000.
l 17 i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Yes, and the S300,000 from the l
13
^
supplemental.
19 MR. HIGGEN30 THAM:
In the rewrite of this, we 1:
20 {
.gj scratched the thing, the 300 from the supplement.
We were l
I'-
21 jlI S150,000 in IE, and $300,000 in research, I think, is the 2
2l Ia i!i only money.
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23 !
1,5 3 MR. O'REILLY:
Was that programmed, Vic?
I i
E' 24
.ll MR. STELLO:
We have money in the sucolenental.
l II 25 '
i s
4
25 i
i i
i 1
i
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MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Okay.
2 MR. STELLO:
I hope.
MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
My understanding.
4 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Training drills, test interactions, great stuff, 3-b, near-term has been aporoved, f
6 longer term actions, I don't know.
7 i
I don't have much problem with it, John.
l i
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: 3-c, Joe, do you have some con-9 ments on this public information, providing information, l
10 to the news media and the public?
I 11 MR. FOUCHARD:
I thnk I agree to it, Mr. Chairman.
i 12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I am for it.
13 CHA!1 MAN AHEARNE: Could you sponsor seminars for the 14 news media?
15 MR. FOUCHARD:
With respect to seminars for the 16 news media, as I think you have gotten from us now, we are going to try -- I believe the response,of the Board of Directors 17 i
of the Health Physics Society is positive, and working through !.
la 19 Bob Minnow's shop, it was a longer term.
We expect a pro-j; 20 posal from them to carry through on a longer term project.
5I The reason for trying a couple of pilots is, frankly, '
21 e.l d
3, to decide, 1) is there enough interest.
i I:s
-3
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23 l I believe there is, and, 2) be suff.'.cient, are i
- II I
24 9e in sufficient depth.
We will find out through trial and I
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3-error.
3 '
I i
i
26 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
1 Let me ask a question on it.
It says here i
"OPA is going to provide the necessary i
guidance to DOE's education programs division."
3 I
MR. FOUCHARD:
Thau is a big straw.
i, 4
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: "By redirection of its education 5
programs to address the objectives of this action plan "
l 6
MR. FOUCHARD:
7 Hardly agree with this.
i But that is I
a bit far.
B I
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I was going to ask you to lay 9
i out the objective of the action plan that you are going t 10 o
have and redirect their plan to.
i i
11 t t
MR. FOUCHARD:
t The amount in the DOE program is mini-12 mal, if any.
13 I
i 1
I question if they are going to beef it up from 14 i
any urging from us cn: anyone else.
15 q
t CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It wasn't clear to me what you
'~6 1
were going to urge them to do.
I I
17 MR. FOUCHARD:
This is one I say must have slipped i
8 past me because while we can urge them to do more in th 19 e
nuclear area, I think this is as far as we can go.
i
};
20 I,
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
j,l.[
21 '
I think we ought to do that.
s There was a time when the AEC put out a substa ti
- :i d.l=N Am n
al 5gI information booklet and supported various educati onal pro-t3l
,3 i i j,!
grams and seminars and meetings, and what have you, that in 24 ;
recent years has gotten to be regarded in some quarters
-3 I
_i 23 as evil and antisocial behavior; the facts are the facts
- t i
il i
I'
27 i
1 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I wasn' t critici::ing, I was asking l
i i
2 we do something.
l l
3 It wasn't clear to me what we were going to ask them 4
to do.
l l
5 MR. FOUCHARD :
If it is requesting DOE to develop 6
information and making information available explaining, then 1
7 I think that would be best.
gI COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
That is the legitimate use i
9, of this kind of program, and it does have a function.
10 CHAIRMAN AREARNE: But I didn't know what I would be i
11 agreeing to,. worded as it was.
12 MR. FOUCHARD:
As far as us providing the neces-l 13 sary guidelines, I believe I would object to that.
l 14 I think we would urge them to do a little more 1
33 in nuclear and they are not.
Not many folks are.
i i
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
If thev don' t -- I don't l
3,o suppose it is clear to me who in the government is going to
,7 i
be doing it.
We are supposed to be the regulators, and i
g they are the people developing energy sources.
g CHAIRMAF AHEARNE:
The difficulty -- vou would have to
};
20 i.
make sure, what we would be requesting them to do is a neutral l
8-21 11 i
5 ".,
l educative process.
They are a developing agency and so they I:s 4
-<I l
i fundamentally, basically are not purely neutral.
i 5.
23 i aC8 l
j sl 24 {
So we can 't be urging them to stress their develop-i i
11 i
= ental aspect.
That is the difficulty.
J 8 25 I
MR. FCUCHARD:
I think all we can do is ask them to li
28 i
produce some educational materials.
l 2
As a matter of fact, that old understanding in the Adams' booklet series was a pretty fine education.
3 l.
4 There may have been a little propaganda in it, l
l but not a helluva lot.
-o CEAIRMAN AHEARNE: That is your rundown.
0 i
I am not; familiar with the series.
l I
COMMISSIONER HANRAHAN:
The last one called " Shedding I 8
I
~
i Light."
But that is not one of the series Joe was referring to.
g The early series were very good.
MR. DIRCKS:
The objective stated under 3-c doesn't i
11 say how the mechanics of the plant, like here is the plant i
12 I
6 and its effect and either DOE could do it or other agencies, 13 i
i HEW or EPA.
I 14 i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: We ll, there is one thing which f
is who can educate the public on just the fundamentals of 17 l nuclear power and that is DOE and HEW's not an agency equipped i
i f
to do that.
18 MR. DIRCKS :
Looking at it under the context of 19 this plan, it seems to be how can we get information across ij i
to the public concerning the effect of these plants.
8 21 l f5
,, I CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I think if it is both, if you want i
1:a
-- l
$* i
~, to get across on what is the plant and the ef fect of the plant 23 j
83g and you are right, they are different organizations.
I don't j
24 I l
[3 l
know whether it is EPA or HEW.
Radiation resource control, Joe.i i
.r SC I
i e
6
29 t'
l 1
MR. O'REILLY:
I could add before you start, Com-I l
2 missioner, that there have been major reorientations to 1
in a general way, go through it quickly l' 3
Section 3-D-1.
We can, I;
4 with you.
5 CHAIRMM AHEARNE: Go on.
t 6
MR. O'REILLY:
What we are doing in many of these i
7 areas is to combine a number of these studies, the number of 8
studies called for in this area and the package of these 9
studies, when completed, to bring that forth to the Commission 10 for information on different alternates, of course including l
11 i the findings of the study for Conmission information, and 1
i i
12 the draft three will be written that way.
j i
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Okay.
j l
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I didn't have any problem 14 13 with the thrust, but some of the coordination, you know, i
i it seemed like a lot of related thinking in different directions.
16 MR. O'REILLY:
To a large degree, I think they have
/
3 i
done that.
g CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Gced, so we should expect to see many of those itens laid out in some sort at the end of 0
some sort of study?
8-21 :
581 i *. g MR. O'REILLY:
Yes, sir.
I gi.
22 i
-I
!3 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
On D-2, there is something s.
Ih8 I
l:3 I missed --
l 3I 4!
MR. O'REILLY:
Cn 3-D-2, we have taken the same 2l 25 '
t
l 30 o
pacz so.
i approach as we did on 3-D-1.
1 COMMISS7CNER HENDRIE:
Yes, good.
i f
MR. O ' REILLY :
And the only difference there, the i
1-area that we are thinking of redirecting it is that we may 4
i very well delay the more sophisticated decision and requiring i
I'
=
I more sophisticated instrumentation on discharges from the 5
6 I
steam dumps, and we are going to attempt to evaluste whether I
7 i
we should put in some interim, ma#n gamma detectors and we i
I a
evaluate that and see what type of instrumentation, if I
9 i
any, would be required in the future.
10 l
So, we are facing that as a short-term study, 1
i 11 i
and we will then decide what, if anything, should be done i
12 l
on the short-term and whether or not we should proceed on I3 the longer' term requiring instrumentation that would pro-i I
vide a more complete recognition of the various isotopes that l'
l could go out from an accident from that source.
i i
M CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Are you treating 3-D-1, 3-D-2 II similar to 3-D-1, which was the study in packaging, et cetera, one of the items here was INE placing TLD's around each site.
MR. O'REILLY:
That is a near-term operating 20 license requirement, and that has been done on Sequoyah, of
- 1 i
course, and it will be finished by April.
j That's a given, sir.
-w j
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: All right.
24 I
So that is imbedded "A"?
-=
~
MR. O'REILLY:
Yes, sir.
lprfweseaT1 Creek VUttaffm8 Eur.-
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ese sci.ffDs CAFTCL ffpCIT. i e. SJfft 187
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CHAIRMAli AHEARNE: The liquid pathway --
1 l
l COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
The liquid pathway, are you i
clear that -- most of these things are priority three things l
3 and this is one of them, but there is a 12-1-80 initial 4
1 things on it.
I I
~
i What are we doing here that is not sufficiently 4
i covered in the accident analysis now?
7 MR. MINNERS :
I think that has been written, Dr.
3 Hendrie.
I 9
l j
The way it is more or less in the plan now, we are I
going to have some requirements, we have asked it be rewritten 11 l
to indicate that a further study will be done and recommenda-l '*
tions and alternatives would be brought forth to the Commis-t 33 sion in the context of the rulemaking hearing on degraded i
I#
l ruling which is item 28-8.
I l~'
I COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
So this will transfer out i
i
!d of this section, will it?
MR. MINNERS :
No, we will leave it in this section 18 because for our convenience, it is radiation and we have left i
I9 radiation all in one place because people who operate radi-20 ation are all in one place.
It is going to be -- we are 1
i 21 going to make requirements right now.
We're going to study it and put it into the hearing process.
I I
j MR. O'REILLY:
Also we were going to recommend l
in the plan that we look at several plans to identify areas I
U i
i I,rrom m v-nw Roarreen I,.c.
l i
l
.Nc. 3 2
=
c n aa:
i i
that may require additional study, not taking all the areas I
i l
j that are described in the plan now and see if we can come i
i up and -- agam come up to the Commission to tell -- to 3
j give you the results of some of these studies, and to 3
I obtain some guidance on how we may apply the different methods of interdicting the water supply for what types of 6
7 l
sites should receive most attention, to come up with some criteria so we are going with the smaller study, and I 3
,i l
forget the amount of funds we are talking for a contract 9
here, but we were talking something in the neighborhood of 10 f
i several hundred thousand dollars, some short-term study g
i j
to see what we could get from that, because the area is a 12 j
little too broad right now and we are looking to focus it l
l a little bit more.
14 i
You have any comment on that?
MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
No.
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: On the 'No.
5 of the 3-D-2, have you 17 i
changed that schedule?
MR. MINNERS :
That schedule, I think we requested it be made shorter.
It is a useful thing to do and not
,0 4
very difficult to get going on it.
g I
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: You say you requested -- does that mean you requested of Harold Senton to --
MR. MINNERS:
No, we asked the task manager to
,4 enter into coordination, and it is essentially accurate, I
inro ricans vo. ear = moorro 3. !<
me scuTw CApr7c6 sTwasT. t e. surrs ter
33 l.
4 o
PAGE No.
and stuff like that.
I If you want to say we directed them, I don't know.
2 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Okay.
So rather than March --
2 l
1 April '81 it should come closer?
8 A
MR. MINNERS :
October '80.
3 i
CHAIPMAN AHEARNE: Good.
4 I
MR. O'REILLY:
Walt, you have another comment on that?
8 MR. PIKE:
It was October '80.
l CHAIM1AN AHEARNE: John, you have some 3-D-2's?
10 i
I COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Wait a minute while I take 11 r
a look at 6, if Iknew what that is.
12 r
j MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
Six, we are going to rewrite.
13 There were a lot of words that were overlooked and left 14 l
i out.
It was unintentional.
There is a more complete descrip-12 I
tion.
14 CHAIM1AN AHEARNE: Could you give us a hint?
MR. HIGGtNBOTHAM:
What it is primarily is to upgrade and make more consistent the independent major escape -- within the regional offices.
The three largest 20 i
regions now have mobile vans, mcbile laboratories, they have 21 in-house equipment, other portable survey and other'. types 2
i of measurements.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Jim is getting his own airplanes.
24 I
MR. HIGGENBOTHAM:
No, we are going to give him a j
23
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i,,romaro.46v - m.: -.-Alac e
I
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i 34 l
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remotely-controlled blimp.
1 I
MR. STELLO:
I second that.
2 2
MR. HIGGEN30 THAM:
We are upgrading regions 4 and I
i t
4 i.
5 and establishing inventory, the control mechanism to see what each region has, we're trying an escape that is more consistent --
6 l
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
This one, -- and maybe some 7
1 l
of these others, I don't know -- get back to sounding like 8
i f
what the agency ought to do to keep itself from having its 9
shoelaces tied together like, you know, get a calibration a!
10 between so that radiation levels is not a function of the j
region that measures, for instance, but innovation rate and air.
13 I
MR. O'REILLY:
This certainly can be developed.
la i
COMMISSIONER HENDPZ'.:
I would be inclined to think this would be a gced candidate to mark as a decontrolled i
item.
17 MR. O'REILLY:
Yes, sir.
CCMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Whether any of these others are is a little less clear, and I would leave it up to you.
MR. HIGGENEOTHM1:
We will take a look at it.
21 i
i COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: Cn worker --
I MR. O'REILLY:
D-3?
23 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
24 Radiation erotection imorovements, I didn't seem
- d i
e t
lpritpresanossaa, Vt7PsAPM MCPORTU'E !%
l 35 a-o I
pacz sc.
to have much comment until we got about halfway down the g_
i l
thing, but I couldn't tell whether I was so impressed with 2
l the rationality of the proposals or exhausted by having 3
gotten this far through the plan.
l The first place I have come up and raised some ques-5 tions on control rocm habitability, you have got some medi-i 6
fications due by just a year from.now during 1-81 and you 7
l are not nearly going to make that.
Some of the older plants S
are trying to come up to the habitability standards of the 9
l standard review plan are going to.have to really -- there's 10 l
l going to be a lot of refitting and new equipment and knock-11 t
i ing out of walls and puting in walls, and one ching and 12 l
another, and you are just not about to get that all laid 13 on and done in one year from now.
I 14 MR. MINNERS:
The task manager has handed me a t~e j
revised copy and will you please provide a modification 16 complete by January '81?
17 MR. DIRCKS :
That speeds it up.
18 i
i MR. MINNERS :
No, it was March '81.
19 CCMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Another 10 months.
20 I thin,k that is moving in the right direction.
I 21 wouldn't be surprised by even then you'll have some outlyers i
22 that have a problem.
23 l
MR. MINNERS :
On the data base.
t 24 i
CHAIEMAN AHEARNE: Before you get to that, can I i
i 2
i jump back?
m m vo
- m. w.
tm me e e,prTen. WTet17. E e.
surTE '97 I
1 36 o
PAoK Na l
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
I l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: On 3-D-3,you have $700,000 for 2
I standards and research in FY '80, Bill, is that money there?
i 3
l MR. DIRCKS :
No, we don't think so.
4 MR. MATTSON:
Which one are you looking at?
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
3-D-3.
4 MR. MAITSON:
3-D-3 in plant?
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: That is right, it has S700,000 3
required for research and standards in FY'80.
I 9
MR. O'REILLY:
I don't see that.
What page are 10 you on?
11 GHAIRMAN AHEARNE: 3-D-34.
12 l
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Health physics improvements, 13
[
in-plant monitoring, right?
I4 MR. DIRCKS:
I know they have certain things down I3 there.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I just raised the question.
II MR. DIRCKS :
It is not a special one.
I8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: Oh, it is not.
19 How about D-2?
20 MR. MATTSON:
The National Certified Processers 21 of Dosimetry and Rate Guides on Audible Alarms, they have 22 been going on in standards for several years.
The initiated 23 them themselves.
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes, the whole D-3 objective i i
13 reads like the work, the standard work, of the agency, and l
l i,,,,, m v - ~ n - r c
+
i o
pacz so.
37 I recommend for your consideration some or all of this to I
l be a "D" i tem.
7 I
MR. MATTSON:
We haven't gone over it, this I
3 i
l particular section, with that eye, and I think since the 4
I i
invention of category D, there could be some research contract 5
I with -- respirators which has been going on for five or 6
six years.
7 I
l COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
My next comment was in 8
l part five of this section.
9 I
CHAIPMAN AHEARNE: Go ahead.
10 l
MR. HENDRIE:
There is a proposal under radiation 11 i
worker exposure data base which will develop a format so 12 l
that utilities can start collecting radiation exposure data 13 i
l on their workers, including both external and internal 14 l
doses, medical radiation exposures, health data, and 13 exposure to nonradioactive carcinogens such as those found id in tobacco smoke.
17 This data collection will require worker collabora-18 tion and acquiescence.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Commissioner Kennedy said he 20 wanted to compliment staff on how carefully they had been 21 l
listening through the years.
Clearly this initiative would 22 be one he would have quite a few words to say about.
23 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You know from time-to-time, 24 I
we have talked about the epidemiological problems of 25 I
I invuwunca.6 vo=n= h, i c
38
=
o PAGE No.
j whether you are trying to sort out radiation effects, but I
l these effects may also be caused and influenced by assorted i
2 other things in a person's health picture, and but every 3
tima, why we recongize that you know if you come around and I
say to me, " Listen, Joe, I would like to know all about your i
e l
personal life so I can fill in your radiation exposure form,"
i 6
I am going to tell you to stuff it, and I really think that 7
rather than the NRC getting out front and making out require-I 3
ments that utilities ask these kinds of questions, that it 9
seems to me that if, indeed, this sort of material is going 10 to be collectible under Government guidance, that perhaps the II Congress of the United States $ight like to take the lead II l
and give us a law that allows this kind of private, personal IU l
information to become accessible to the Government.
I4 otherwise, we are all going to be up there explain-i 13 ing to some highly irate members of the Congress what we Id are doing sticking our noses into the citizenry's private 17 business.
I8 MR. DIRCKS:
It does say " appropriate legislative I9 action."
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: But I chought this, though, would 21 have come under a study that Standards is doing with EPA, or 12 EEW.
i 23 MR. DIRCKS:
I think they are doing something along i
24 that line.
l i
CHAIRMAN.AHEARNE:
And I would suscect it would have:
i _= v-~ a-t<
39 a-o l
PAGE.No.
l to really come out of that rather than us taking on this kind I
of initiative, trying to examine what kind of data base I
ought to be developed for epidemiological studies.
i f
2 MR. DIRCKS:
We can get STD to bolt it into their l
other things with EPA.
I COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
This one is not only a "D" 6
l but it is not only clear to ne that the agency, the Government, 7
the United States of America and perhaps beyond as well 1
3 wouldn't benefit if this was just removed from the action 9
l plan and be put in the waste basket.
I 10 l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: The Congress did ask us, with 11 i
other Federal agencies, to examine - '
f 12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Let us do that job, but i
I I.d I don't need it in the action plan.
I Id f
MR. MATTSON:
I think Kemeny spoke to this to i
13 this kind of thing to be studied. If the Congress has asked J
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: With other agencies to do a 37 study of what should be --
18 i
MR. MATTSON:
That's what we'll cut in here.
I
~
19 I think it should stay even though we might call 20 it a day.
2I COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
But put it in that context.
i U
MR. MATTSON:
Yes.
23 MR. DIRCKS:
It is ongoing anyhow.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I think Joe's concern is that i
U we shouldn't be representing it as the Commission has i
lMygynsaficenak '/Dreaf1M Nh a u.,== M
{
., ~ - -.... ~ ~
9 o
40 I
pacz.sc t
i decided, that the study is supposed to look at what kind 1
l l
of data would be worthwhile to be collected, if feasible 2
l to be collected.
3 j
l MR. MATTSON:
To meet the category "D",
it would 4
I have to be pre-TMI.
3 i
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It goes into the Hart l
6 1
committee, you know, a few years ago there was a lot of 7
interest in low-level radiation?
3 MR. MATTSON:
We are a little bit behind our 9
chapter head.on chapter three.
10 MR. DIRCKS:
He has ongoing negotiations.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Joe, I think on three and four, 12 I
we would treat as a Commission action clan.
I 13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Okay, and I don't know if i'
14 we need to particularly -- I would not struggle here with 13 four.
16 What should we do with regard to -- do you want 17 to keep a four bound into the action plan?
Maybe marked 18 "D"
in toto?
l 19 l
CEAIRMAN AHEARNE: Actually, I would separate it 20 out.
I think that is something that DOE and we should really I
21 handle outside of the action plan per se.
i 3
MR. MATTSON:
There are some things in four that j
23 have to do with practices in licensing or practices in 2A inspection and enforcement, not a whole lot different from 15 a
i, m w o m. % r=
1 41 pacz Na i
l l
i what are in one, two, and three that you think there is f
f s me agreement upon work to be done by the staff or studies 2
l to be undertaken by the staff that are already fairly well 3
t 4
laid out.
l It is not in the "A's".
It is in the "B", increased.
3 emphasis on human factors.
6 l
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: That is providing an organizationa l i
i structure that gives prominence, that is really -- we 3
organize the office of INE.
That is not something that is 9
10 l
anything like that would be addressed at the DOE.
Strength and enforcement process, INE is developing that enforcement action.
12 i
MR. MATTSON:
Trading need, HB-7, as a full train-
- 3 l
ing in licensing and generic study of reactor matters.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: NRR will establish a group 33 34 that will identify safety issues. elative to pilot plants.
i Mypointisl Again, that is an organization of NRR.
37 though, those are the kind of items that DOE has asked to 33 discuss with the Ccmmission and I don't think this is the 19 appropriate forum.
,0 4
MR. MATTSON:
Let me keep pressing just to make 21 t
sure.
.g l
l 23 Construction permit, ear resolution of generic 24 issues by rulemaking, systemmatic assessment of cperating l
i I
reactors, found under 4-D and 4-E, this is the agenda that j
t l
smyneanonaa. Vossanas %=.-
I4 I
42 4
_o PAGE NC.
i l
l Monroe is developing on rulemaking.
l 1
j CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: Those, you are right.
l 2
MR. MATTSON:
4-F, I was going to propose when 3
I l
we got there that we take all of 4-F out of the action plan.
A I
{
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: It looks to me like A, 3,
and I
i C should also be out.
6 j
MR. O'REILLY:
To put and er thought in there, Mr.
7 Chairman, is the traceahility of the recommendations, you 3
l know, is an important consideration.
3 9
We tried to ensure that every recommendation is i
10 i
made by an appropriate body.
11 l
l CHAIF M AHEARNE: I understand that.
12 l
My concern is the following:
The next revision 13 l
of this is getting closer and closer to sets of approved 14 action, sets of actions that are beginning to be foleded into 13 the agency's procedures.' Many of these items are ones 16 that are going to be decided upon in meetings with the IDO, 17 Commissioners in the EDO, and aren't folded into this type 18 of process.
19 So, I can see your point, and I can see the advant-20 age of having a separate, as you say it, put it as nancappendix 21 l
or something to keep track that, "Yes, you have picked up."
e
~
But the process for resolving those doesn't occur in that Z3 kind of meeting.
That is my point.
24 l
Some o f them, as you just pointed out correctly, i
i U
i I
i,m,.mne ve==:-
rc j
meare m.passw a w e e eurfT '87
43 4
o P ACZ No.
Roger, there is that set you were talking about.
i I
MR. MATTSON:
What we tried to do in "D" was do 2
I all the things in four that you described.
It appers we 3
i i
erred because there are some things in "B" that we didn't a
i understand you wanted in "A",
the rather minor reorganization i
3 I
l things that are still in "B".
4 Let me propose that we take the guidance you have I
l I
given us today, put them all into "A",
move "A" out of the I
b plan and put it into the appendix, but provide references to 9
where those things apply to Kemeny and Rogovin.
10 l
For example, a number of Rogovin's recommendations i
that will fit into "A" as considerations to be --
12 l
j CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I certainly recognize that.
13 MR. MATTSON:
All I am trying to find is some-thing for traceability.
We have a GAO investiaation going on 1f right now~ on the question o f traceability.
14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
An audit?
17 MR. MATTSON:
An audit, whatever.
18 We need all the reccmmendations and everybody who 19 was investigated at Three Mile Island.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I am sure glad the General 21 Accounting Office doesn't have very serious things to occupy 22 their time, because they wouldn 't have recreational endeavors i
23 of this kind to keep them out of --
24 I sure wish we were in great shape like tha.
25
,_.m v
44 1
MR. HANRAHAN:
I think we should recognize that manyl 2
of the recommendations and criticims in both the President's 3
Commission and special inquiry had to do with attitudinal 4
things.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: I recognize that, but I will l
l 6
try to say it again.
These are issues which the Commission l
t 7
with the EDO has to decide.
We are not going to discuss g
them out here.
9 MR. H ANRAHAN :
I heard you say it.
We also had 10 the notion that those were somehow not related to licensing 11 decisions.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I in no way intended to inply that,,
t 13 All I was trying to get across that we had previously l
14 decided in earlier meetings, those are issues the Commission i
l l
l 15 is going to decide, but the mechanism for the decisions is 16 not in this file.
j 17 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
If I understand you, you j
i 18 know I went through this with parts one, two, and three with i
19 you to pull it out, and if you want to put it in the appendix j;
20 and we agreed to class certain of those as items which were El 21 left in the volume in order to provide this ccmprehensive i
Ivi j -l 22 list of what all we considered, and responsive recommendations IIt y1 23 in the traceability, but were given a category, "E"
or what?
l
.4
!!I 24 I
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Uh-huh.
11 i
ji 25 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Which says these are really I
l i
i
45 o going of the work in the agency.
1 n
2 I am wondering with regard to the type of action 3
plan item that we are identifying now in Section 4, do you 4
want -- the traceability aspect of it and having a single 5
comprehensive list is attractive.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I wonder if these things 8
would be better going into an appendix or better have an "E" 9
category, leave them in place.
They are not "D's" quite, but 10 "E's".
11 MR. MATTSON:
How about making them as chapter five?
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I would prefer them as a separate 13 chapter.
14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
That is all right.
i 15 MR. MATTSON:
As we go through rephrasing them, 16 which I think is what you required in the report, we will 17 state the question or the issue and not in the next draft, l
1 18 state the solution, as the rest of the plan is.
j 19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Now, are there some of these I
I j;
20 in "D" items that you -- let's see, D-1, expanding the s=
1 13 i
21 research and decisionmaking.
2B se ip$
22 MR. MATTSON:
The program to develop where you I. ' I.
3.l 23 can state quantitative risk goals.
h!'
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Fostering early resolution of 24 11 "I
25 safety issues.
I 2
i
46 l
MR. MATTSON:
This is the question of how can we j
i' get more things done at the CP stage or how can we get more things resolved by rulemaking something on which some staff 3
work could be done to develop some ideas.
7 8
^
~~
5 Monroe will take one of his people, spend a year trying to I
6 1
1 m
up with some approach.
7 MR. MATTSON:
Well, as a matter of fact, Danton g
took one of his people as a result of Denton's studies g
several years ago, and did exactly that, so that won't be 10 the approach taken.
l y
A year r so ago now, that ended up with a paper 2
l that did not acccmplish too much up here.
1, One thing we have accomplished in talking with the 4
i General C unsel's Office of a study on the side of this i
15 say what is necessary or ac n p an n
a e
16 I
required to do by rulemaking, to take the action plan, j
17 generally, and say what might be desirable to undertake by j
,g rulemaking of the things we know we are going to do over l
9 l
the next two or three years to see if there is some new line l
_V O
ee il w
want to draw between the things we do by rulemaking and 21 Iwl 5jd the things we do by regulatory guide.
22 I. a.
-a!
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE :
It sounds different frcm this 23 W 3 a, l!
-:i 4-D-2.
24 11 5:
MR. MATTSON:
That might be what 4-0-2 has in it
,3,
I t
i
47 when it gets to be draft three.
I 1
l There are useful thoughts within the staff that are 2
worth bringing forward in these areas 4-D and 4-E.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: That sounds like it is still in 4
the formula at this stage. Yourare still trying to formu-5 late what is really there?
6 MR. MATTSON:
Yes.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I guess I am not really ready g
to take a position on it if it is not formulated, and 4-D, 9
No.
2, we already did that, made that decision.
10 MR. DIRCKS:
!1hich one was that?
11 j
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That was the one delegating the 12 standards, 4-D-2-2.
13 MR. MATTSON:
That has happened since draft two was 14 i
written.
15 MR. STELLO:
Let te make a comment abcut 4-D-2.
Cne, !
16 I
that is an area where we are having some difficulty.
It i
17 l
appears that our ability to inspect and enforce at what 18 l
is going on in construction, that continues to create a prcb-j 19 lem. If that's what you want to do, fine.
If we want to do l
W:
20 l
"s E something different, it is an area that I think needs another i
SI 21 look.
$ pj 22 lig I hope this area gets much better and I hope we r
i j 23 1 t a.
don't lose that thoguht.
goE' 24
!]
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is to give you more things lI 25,
I that are cinned down and sets requirements.
I i
48 8 1
MR. STELLO:
Let's see, Sid, what are the appropri- !
2 ate requirements which the principle architectural and 3
engineering features, when we need the equivalent technical 4
specifications for the construction of this, when we ought 5
to embody additional codes and standards in the regulations.
i 6
Those starts which have been around us for a long time now, i
7 there are a number of strong reccmmendations in this area, and 8
I think it is an important thought, and I hope we don't lose it.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I will have to tell you, Vic, 10 while I don't disagree with that as an important thought, I 11 can't find it in the description of 4-D-2.
12 You have been putting an interpretation on why 13 that is important which I didn't get out of reading that.
14 MR. STELLO:
There are an awful lot of recommenda-15 tions, thoughts, and ideas that are being consolidated into I
i 16 ve ry, ve ry, few words, and that was my point.
l I
17 There is an awful lot that was intended here, and 18 I wouldn 't want to lose some of that.
l l
i 19 Again, we ought to decide where you want to ou~
t V
20 the resources on to do it now and what the implication might i
if i
- I 21 be.
I.il
$hj 22 Clearly, it is agency business that has been around I!!
1l 23 for a long time.
WIa.
gw 24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let me read the objective.
11}I 25 The cost of early resolutions before major j
k i
i
49 l
t I
construction commitments occurred, eliminate repetitive 1
l i
consideration of issues in several States in the licensing 2
process and use rulemaking to resolve generic issues.
[
Nowhere is there a flavor to provide something 4
for inspection or enforcement against during construction.
5 And I am going to tell you it's not a good objective.
6 It's just not there.
7 MR. MATTSON:
It's a poor job by the steering group.
8 We have understood for sometime that the major 9
thrust on the part of INE in item no. 1 was construction 10 tech specs or something in their place, and it is just over-11 sight that the objective didn't capture that thought.
12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What came out of the Bailey 13
[
decision?
l 14 MR. BICKWIT:
He ordered staff to take a look at l'
15 that very question.
i 16 i
i MR. DIRCKS:
I think there is a paper down here 17 on this subject now.
18 l
MR. MATTSON:
There is, on this very issue.
How 19 much detail you get in construction,and how much enforcement j
13 20 gj you have against it.
{
21 le MR. BICKWIT:
It came up a couple of days ago.
g.,
gig 22 i.I(
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I haven't found it vet.
5 23 fjl'
- 3 COMMISSIONER HENDRII:
It was in the context of 24 ju what are the principle architectural and engineering criteria I I 25 i i
t h
l1 l
50 a
4 whereas this is -- includes that, but is a little broader 1
l and suggests that you could, in fact, define a set of 2
technical specifications for construction which would consti-3 tute the principle architectural and engineering criteria 4
that he would have to build to.
l I must say, does anybody think they can write 6
I down a thing like that, by the way?
7 MRm_MATTSON:. Well,.I think the -- that paper down 8
here now is to sort of get an idea from the Commission on 9
just how detailed you want that process to be.
10 1
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Oh, I see.
This isn't one I
I 11 of these papers that says, "Here is our recommendation,"
l 12 1
this is one of these papers that says, "Now we can study this 13 five ways, best, good, fair, poor, lousy."
Choose one.
14 MR. O ' REILLY :
As an enforcement, the principle 15 criceria was really scmething like one containment.
i 16 i
COMMISSICNER HENDRIE:
It certainly keeps the 17 i
l intellectual requirements of the inspectors on a reasonable 18 level.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We ll, I think there are a number of items in here in this Section 4 that need, could stand l
- 1 21 some more work and before it is clear what they are, at zij 22 j$j least before I asdress them, but there ought to be that i
j 23 83!
Section five which I will then turn to EDO.
24 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What are you going to do II 25 l
I
s e
51 l
about that?
j 1
MR. DIRCKS:
My term will be up then.
2 MR..BICKWITr That means.we will have to 3
accelerate the schedule.
l l
4 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I don't have much more to
'l 5
say about draft two, and we ought to get on to the next stage i
6 as soon as possible.
l 7
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That includes EDO and EDO ought 8
to be taking a look at what is the relative impact on the 9
agency's progress because we really have to get to the stage i
10 where we start either approving some of these things and i
11 deferring others or deciding to go for more money or resources.:
12 MR. MATTSON:
One question that will help us as 13 we go about the next couple of weeks'of work to get draft i
14 I
three up here.
We talked about the ACRS a week or so ago.
l 15 CHAIPEAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
l 16 MR. MATTSON:
At the moment, I signed a letter today
.to the Chairman of the ACRS, sort of an interi response l
17 i
18 to their two most recent letters on the subject of the action l 19 plan, transmitting a cross-reference of draf t two to all of i
3) their recommendations and saying by the 5th of March, I would 20
.El l
2*'
lgj have to them draft versions of draft 3's overviews and the i
E.
JO 93 lit chapters' overviews which we described to you that we were
- -l
$' E j 23 t
writing, plus a cross-cut of our prioritizing system for all
- si Its
,~4 jj of the actions in the plan, cross-reference:
to ACRS recem-
- q 25 mendations, NTOL items, industry prioriti ing, and a couple i
s 52 1
of things I don't recall off the top of my head.
2 We are scheduled :o meet with them on the 6th of 3
March, which means they won't have much of this information 4
before they come to town, and will have only read it briefly.
5 Nor will th
- have in their hands draft three.
6 We will make every effort to have an unedited l
7 version of draft three to give to them when they come to 8
town.
9 It may not be physically possible to do it, but we l
10 will make every effort.
11 I need to have some feel from the Commission as t
12 to the kind of advice you expect me to seek to get from 13 the ACRS for you before you make final decisions on the 14 plan.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, a couple of comment.s.
16 First, I would defer to my colleague, to my colleague's, 17 in the ACRS to specifically address that NTOL list, and i
15 you should have a copy of that request because it went to j
i 19 the ODE.
];
20 MR. DIRCKS :
I just got a copy yesterday.
es 5 g 21 i CHAIRMA21 AHEARNE:
And focus on the question of 5 ". l1 1 :.
gi 22 necessary and sufficient.
!5 !
5 23 I also explained what process we had underway, and
- 3,!
I' 24 I think one of the items that they will be particularly
.1 I
25 l interested in as we are is what has to be given up by all this..
J i
t
i 53 I think the ACRS, Roger, will be providing us with l
1 I
advice on the matters we are most concerned with, at least i
2 I am most concerned with, in your discussions with them is to see if you can get more clearly stated their uneasiness 4
with the list of items in going through, I think, again 5
this time, we have tended to slip some of the items, to com-l 6
l bine some of the items, to move otaers into Joe's category 7
"D" which reflects much more the ongoing work of the agency.
8 I think if you could take some time to work through 9
with them that approach to get from them what is their 10 judgment as to the impact now, their judgment new of the impact on the agency.
12 The sense I got, both from the letter and the dis-13 cussion I had with certainly the Chairman of the ACRS, was l
14 that they were just very uneasy that we were both going down i
i 15 i
a path that would lead to too many requirements laid on l
16 l
the licensees without a sense of the integration of that l
17 i
effort, and also lead to deferring many of the activities l
l 18 of the agency which they now are happy with.
19 MR. MATTSON:
I think we can give them much informa-l j;
20 tion on those things on the meeting on the 6th, just about y*I I
21 f$ !
the briefing we had planned.
ipl 22 i!(
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
John, you there?
fsj 23 1[a COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes, one thing.
24 In the thing of pulling draf t three together, to 3I 2s i
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s.
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what extent will you be able to take account of the available 1
l resources in the schedule?
2 MR. MATTSON:
I will tell you how we are doing 3
it and maybe that answers the cuestion.
4 We have as we have gone through three, two to make 5
three, put in schedule changes that you have suggested.
6 j
We have put in others of our own.
The sense has 3
7 been to take into account what we know about resources on 8
the basis of what offices have told us or their cut candidates.
9 They have told us that over a month ago.
We are not 10 unfamiliar with them as we make draft three.
11 l
When draft three first comes off the press, the 12 steering group will sit down for a three-day period using 13 a priority list with all the annotations from table one, 14 i
start at the top, work down to the bottom, alongside a cut list, inverted priority from the operating plant and draw 16 a line.
It will take three days to draw that line, talking 17 i
t to task managers, talking among ourselves about the relative l
18 priority of the existing program and the new program.
19 To a certain extent we have already done that for f:
20 i
j:5 the NTOL list and we have sat with the office directors l
21 i
la g., g through several versions of that, and are fairly confiden! t g5, 22 fEj that the right kinds of choices have been made, test that 23 lIl again with the whole plan.
-j' 24
!a Then we will give draft three and our line back to II 25 l
4 4
55 offices, give them one week to review the draft again,!aake sure it is substantively and technically what they had in 2
mind, and they agree with it, and this will be their chance 3
to concur although they haven't had to formally concur up to 4
this point.
And'to advise.us if they agree where we've drawn 5
the line thr'ough their program.
We might,.for example, i
6 l
consider drawing lines through some offices' programs to I
7 accomplish some work in other offices.
8 We have to face that decision.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I recognize at least from my 10 view -- I feel the final recommendation of the drawing the 11 l
line is EDO's, i
12 l
MR. MATTSON:
Yes.
t 13 i
MR. DIRCKS:
I think that's the understanding.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
s 15 MR. MATTSON:
Somebody has to draw the first one, l
16 l
and they will come to a meeting with the EDO bringing their 17 i.
comments and recommendations and decisions will be reached l
18 l
and draft three will be forwarded to the Commission.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Kevin?
I j;
20
(!
MR. CORNELL:
One other factor --
- 3 21 e !.a!!.
MR. MATTSON:
If we find we are cuttinc too deec 354 22 l
IE into things that are too.important, and yet there are things I (f 23 l
fj!
we can't in good conscience continue defer into '82, that by 24 5R aa definition will be the thing we ask for in the '81 supplement, II 25 :
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56 if any.
It isn't clear yet that there is any.
I' CHAIRIEN AHF.ARNE:
Thank you very much.
2 (Whereupon at 4:37 p.m. o' clock, the meeting was 3
adjourned.]
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